Speaker 1: What is up, fellows?
Speaker 2: That goes I am Dan Valley coming at you with
the one the only Morton Ensen of the NBA podcast Fame,
Yahoo Sports Fame and Forbes Fame.
Speaker 1: We are here to talk about part one of two of.
Speaker 2: Rebuilding teams and their futures, their overarching directions, the current
as well, but mostly the futures and where they're headed,
what we've seen, what we think. We begin with the
Eastern Conference, But the most important question of this podcast
is mort how the heck are you doing?
Speaker 3: Doing? Well? Man? Just enjoying the fact that All Star
fists are over? I wish I was kidding about that.
Speaker 2: Not the worst The game itself was the worst presentation
in all my years of covering the league since twenty eleven.
It is by far the worst I ever saw, and
I don't want to make our subscribers slog through because
I don't have solutions for it. To be honest, I
just you said this, and I won't say it. I'll
let you say it, but like I don't have answers
to fix it. But I also don't know how less
basketball was ever thought of as the good answer for
how to fix the All Star Game. So it was
I appreciate. I do appreciate experimentations. I want to acknowledge
that you're going to have some whiffs, but this one
felt the presentation of it, the structure of it, It
just felt incredibly tone depth to have people sit there
and we had a breakdown in our discord.
Speaker 1: Shout out to Mike posted it. I think it was
from Reddit.
Speaker 2: They broke down how much actual basketball was played versus
tributes to TNT versus advertisements, and it's just like disgustingly low.
Speaker 1: How much actual basketball?
Speaker 3: Forty two minutes forty two minutes of basketball eighty minutes
of ads. And here's the kicker. I actually got an
email today from a PR firm and they were pitching
me on writing about just what a tremendous success it
the All Star weekend had been. And one of the
metrics that they wanted me to implement and in an
article was ad integration, Right, guys, because that's what fans
care about. That's what I totally no, I am not
gonna write that piece. It's just like, no, that's.
Speaker 1: Things are viewed.
Speaker 2: The fact that like ranking super Bowl ads ahead of
the Super Bowl is like a huge thing for us
in society in America. I just find that, like some
of the commercials are funny. But I'm like, yeah, let
me just fucking sit through this ranking of ads. It's
just like, so, but you said it, and so you
didn't say. Now, I have no idea who they were
catering to during like the All Star Game. I know
you said, I know they've said excuse me, or people
have said, this is for the kids, the youths, the
people who are younger than Not sure, I don't know,
Like I would love to know if if we have
any I don't know gen zers or younger listening to this,
and I know we do. Get at me and let
me know whether you liked just having mister Beast randomly
integrated right into this gay I just what.
Speaker 1: Did you like about it? Did you actually like about it?
They hit miss. I'm open to any and all feedback
from their alleged target audience. I suppose, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I have a point about that, and then
we can get on with the show if that's.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's move on.
Speaker 3: God him it. Well, So I've heard from the NBA itself,
like from many of my contacts within the league, they
have this saying that the NBA is a league of lawyers,
and that's never felt more appropriate than during the All
Star weekend, because it absolutely felt like a bunch of people,
a bunch of lawyers, had put together a spreadsheet of
a lot of people with high follower counts and then
just just decided, Okay, per definition, that's great, and that's
why we put them in there, completely foregoing the fact
that even though Kevin Hart has a lot of followers,
he's not exactly someone who caters to a young audience.
I mean, even even us who's like in the age
group of the target audience, are a little tired of
the dude, like bright now a lot. I'm trying to
I'm trying to be nice.
Speaker 1: Even the players were tired of him by the least.
Speaker 3: It was like just.
Speaker 1: Over it, over it.
Speaker 3: But here's the second part, which I think is the
far more crucial point. They they don't really take into
account mister beats Beast's audience. They just kind of because like,
people don't follow mister Beasts because he's an NBA fan.
They follow mister Beads for what he creates. They follow
him for the shows, the award money, whatever it is like,
so the NBA things, Oh, this guy has x amount
of followers x amount of like, we'll get all those.
No you won't. No, you won't because you can't be
guaranteed in any way, shape or form that even one
percent of his followers are interested in basketball. You're just
looking at it through spreadsheet perspective. You're not doing your
due diligence. And I think the league office would be
so much wiser in using this All Star weekend as
motivation to get more creative types within the league office
instead of just it just being a lot of lawyers
who are doing this. So on those Spreadshet tells arms,
Now this branded person has a lot of fractors that
we kind of limit. No, screw that puting guys who
are actually telling oh, like we need to put this
person into this event, we need to do this, We
need to do that because then we cater to this segment.
Now we cater to the hardcore fans. Now we cater
to the kids. Now we're because no one's doing that.
I think Josh Epley said it said it the best
on Twitter. He said, the NBA has absolutely no idea
who their core audience is anymore like it's just lost.
Speaker 1: I think that's fair. I don't know, and I would wreck.
Speaker 2: I think that's an interesting solution to have maybe more
creative types in there, and also to make it easier
for like the basketball sicko stuff to be found to
where it's I hear people complain about the way the
game is covered, including some of the player or the
way the game is played to shout out to Draymond
Green for just viewing this information there. Like just they
have alternatives, like the NBA alternative broadcasts, those which you
are to find, like if you like, if you want
to listen to a different type of those things. So
I think there's a lot of things they could try.
Like I said, I do appreciate experimentation. I didn't understand
what was like, I didn't see what Josh said, But
the NBA not seeming to have any idea who they're
called audiences feels like sort of the best way to
sum it up at this point. And look, some people
don't want to talk about it or hear about it,
and we're not gonna spend any more time on it,
but it's absolutely an issue worth discussing because they're concerned
about it and they're making the players just run through
these you know, Kevin r answer which is just canceled
All Star weekend because everyone's complaining. I agree, I agree, Yeah,
I honestly I would normally just say like, no, that's
not the answer.
Speaker 1: But after what we just.
Speaker 2: Saw, like hey, dunk contest was cool, by the way,
the closest they probably came to hitting the mark. And
I don't watch him enough or I've seen like maybe
one or two of his videos, but like Jesser being
a judge, maybe that was egregious. But like his audience
is actually interested in basketball all because every video he
posts is about basketball.
Speaker 1: So I'm not necessarily supporting that decision. I don't. I
honestly don't really care.
Speaker 3: I know, I don't still don't know who that is,
so like there.
Speaker 2: But that is like he's closer to being inside the
ballpark of nice.
Speaker 1: I can see what they were thinking.
Speaker 3: That's great. I mean, that's generally just because I don't
know the guy. That just makes me uninformed, but that like,
that's great, that's genuinely great that they did, you know,
the hit one out of twenty seven.
Speaker 2: I don't even know if it was a hit to
be honest with you, I'm sure people are annoying that, so.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it's to me, it's just it's a symptom
of something larger. And it's not just the All Star Game.
It's again, the way that it's being covered. The C
and C crew has just like they know they're not
going to come back, and they are making us all
very aware of it, and they are just they don't
give it flying something anymore. And it's just it's a
gregious coverage. And I think the best way to wrap
this segment up before we actually get to the actual
podcast is imagine if the NFL had people covering the
league talking about football in the same way that the
people we have covering basketball did, those people would be
off the air in a matter of hours. And for
some reason, we still give a platform to players who
don't even know the names of certain players. We give,
you know, platforms to players who are trying to like
tear down the current league just to elevate themselves in
their prior glory. Like the m A is so obvious
that it's frankly embarrassing that no one's kind of like, hey,
maybe these aren't the droids you're looking for. You know,
it's like, shouldn't be shouldn't be hard?
Speaker 2: I and I went on a little bit of an
All Star Sunday Night crusade because when fans kind of
say that stuff about there's too many threes, things that
I objectively disagree with. The game is awful, it needs
like the certain rule changes. By the way, it does
need certain rule changes. I won't dismiss what fans are
saying as clearly, I mean, unless they are a holes
to me, I won't dismits it because I think it's
a symptom of the coverage you're talking about it when
I see current players, not even just former players, but
current players saying that BS, that's really where it's okay, Well,
now you're not even trying to portray this in an
accurate light. And so I would just strongly recommend Ben
Taylor at Thinking Basketball did a video. It's not condescending
at all, but he went through some of the biggest
gripes about today's game, and then I.
Speaker 1: Just had a discussion about, well, could this be true?
Is it not true?
Speaker 2: And then kind of showed the evidence as to why
these main talking points just aren't accurate. And I think
it speaks to a failure and folly in the way
that the specifically the NBA is covered. And I will
recognize that while people like to compare, and I'm not
saying you specifically like what the NFL is doing, that
type of coverage, I do think is a lot easier
to turn mainstream when you have so much time in
between plays, in between days, and so the NBA has
a unique challenge there.
Speaker 1: But I want to also make this clear that does
not excuse.
Speaker 2: The state of like why like why the fans, Like
fans shouldn't have to care about the number of advertisements
that are being played during the NBA All Star Game,
and so maybe we're foisting that on them, but when
there's eighty minutes of advertisements versus forty minutes of basketball.
Speaker 1: It serves to be a talking point there.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: So biggest losers are probably the fans in all this.
Speaker 2: Unless again, if you are what I think the NBA
believes their target audience is supposed to be, and you
loved the NBA All Star Game, let us know there's
our ten minute joint Dia tribe on the NBA All
Star Game. In the state of coverage, let's get to
some rebuilding teams. More is in the east before we
dive in. Is there anything that I think each team
is different on a case by case basis, of course,
but is there any sort of blanket consideration or view
when you take evaluating how these teams that are focusing on.
Speaker 1: The future go about their business or how you view
their current state.
Speaker 3: Determination. Determination is the first word that comes to mind,
because if you go into a on rebuild, you have
to make sure that you do it the right way.
You go through it organizationally wide. That you don't have
people in the front office fighting it, that you don't
have half a front office, was like, no, we don't
really want to rebuild. Like you all are on the
same page. Everyone has to want to go through a rebuild.
I have to have the motivation to keep going when
shit gets tough. My apologies for for breaking out the
es worth there, but.
Speaker 1: Like I'm just our listeners has probably heard so much.
Speaker 3: I know, I know, I'm trying. I'm trying.
Speaker 2: Anyone who listens knows Grant has quite a dirty vocabulary.
Speaker 3: So I'm grand in many many ways. It's fine, Grand
is grand, and look.
Speaker 2: By the way, I want to know what he thinks
of your lawyer voice, Grant as a as an attorney.
Speaker 3: I mean, look that that might actually gotten his juice
is warning, so I think it.
Speaker 1: Sounds exactly like him. I love you, Grant. We're just kidding.
Let's dive into this though. We begin with the Brooklyn Nets.
Who this is.
Speaker 2: I don't want to say it's not the most form
of egregious rebuilding ever, But when you reacquire the rights
to your next two draft picks, you know what the
deal is before I even ask you about your overarching
thoughts on them in their direction?
Speaker 1: Did you see what Cam Johnson.
Speaker 2: Said over the past few days? It was he basically
this was via Lucas Kaplan of nets Dal. He does
a fantastic job over there was basically I won't read
through the whole thing is it was quite lengthy, but
saying that if fans are angry at the players because
they're not losing enough games or I think you can
make the case that the Nets have not lost enough
games this year, that they're not real fans and you
can't expect players to be active participants in tanking. And
I agree, like I you tanking or rebuilding like as
an organizational direction, not like the players all of them
need to be on board because this oversimplifies it, But
why are we expecting Cam Johnson to contribute to what
could be the Nets getting his replacement out of like
or making it easier to trade him, Like I don't,
I don't, so I don't understand that thought, but I thought,
I do think it's interesting because we talk we throw like,
we use this throwaway Verbia's where's Oh they're rebuilding they
should lose more like he kind of don't, or at
least I I'm sure I'm guilty of not giving enough
credence to like these players are one, they're more talented
than you probably give them credit forward too, It's like
they're not going out there trying to throw games. It's
technically on the team, on the front office and or
the coaching staff to put out lineups there that don't
stand a chance and if you end up winning games anyway,
like the Nets have been doing that all year too.
Speaker 1: It's like it's that I think.
Speaker 2: That contributed to them trading Dennis Schruder and Dorian Phinny
Smith so far before the trade deadline was just okay, like, no,
we need to pull the rip cord on this there's
too much talent. Jordy Fernandez is too good of a coach.
These guys are too good.
Speaker 3: M Yeah, no, I fully agree.
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 3: I was actually surprised they didn't end up trading Cam
as well. But I think, honestly, there were some parts
of that whole thing that just got thrown on a
whack because of the Luke could trade this way. I
think there were a couple of things where the nets
were like, Okay, look, we need to make sure we
get our bang for the buck. But you kind of
knew after what the Lakers gave up for Luca, a
lot of teams were kind of being a little bit
of dicks to each other, like, oh, well, look, you
know the Lakers came up virtually nothing for Luca, so
why shouldn't I give up anything of significant value for
camp Johnson. So I kind of get it. I think
it's fine. He's still got two years left on his
deal after this year, so like you can make a
summer move there without any problem. I do want to
clarify something because I think you're absolutely right. I think
Campus is absolutely right, and when I said before we
started that determination needs to be organizational wide. I do
think that is, you know, excluding players and coaching staff
because I considered him to be in their own little bubble,
Like you have to have coaches and players trying to win, because,
like you said, that is their jobs. You're not going
to find players who are going to be like, hey, look,
I'm not going to put in an effort. These guys
are in insanely, insanely competitive. Like it's it's to the
point where we don't necessarily comprehend it because they wouldn't
be in the NBA if they weren't. Like, these guys
are sickos more than we like to call ourselves sickos.
So obviously, I think it's it's entirely on the ownership
angle and on the front office. Like coaches, players own
little thing that's their own little entity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree with you there. I do wonder
if the Nets specifically do seem under more pressure to
where they might be subjected to that type of sweeping
analysis where this is this is not okay because they
don't have as intriguing as Cam Johnson might be. As
much as you may like some of the players on
this roster, whether it's Cam Thomas or Noah Clowney or
John Wilson or somebody else, like they don't have the
face or they're building block of the future, And so
that increases the stakes of this season, specifically when it
comes to their lottery odds. At the same time, though
I don't know how much worse like they're realistically supposed
because as of right now they have the six they
would have the six best lottery.
Speaker 1: Odds in the league as we're recording this.
Speaker 2: And it's just when you look at the teams, the
five teams below them Raptors, Hornets, Jazz, Pelicans' Wizards, I.
Speaker 1: Don't like, which are those teams? Are they supposed to catch?
Speaker 2: And so then I guess you would say, is there
Cardinal sin not having lost like early on enough? I suppose,
But I'm just what do you sort of make of
all that? Where they are playing this it's a different
type of high stakes game, and maybe it always is
if you're kind of in year one of a retool,
just because you don't have like you can't even point
to someone on this team who might be their building block.
Speaker 1: Of the future.
Speaker 3: It's it's one of those things where every single team
who starts off a new season, they want to see
what's actually going down. Like the Clippers, for example. It's
a great example of a team we all thought would
be awful in many ways. This year they are not.
They are actually quite good. So they with that whole thing,
and if they had lived up to our expectations of
being bad, we would have seen them be far more
active at the deadline, presumably pivoted towards being sellers. So
there are situations where if a team gets off to
a start where ownership is like, oh, this might actually
be good for us to win, and then we can
push this whole rebuild thing down a year. I think
the Nets were in one of those situations because what
they think, They started off the year like three and three,
and so they kind of went with that, and then
they didn't lose enough to a point where they were
fully convinced they couldn't make a playoff push, and then
suddenly the wheels kind of came off, I want to say,
in late December, mid mid December maybe, and that's when
I think, rightly so they pivoted, and they should. So
it's the fact that they don't have that guy. It's
the same situation as Portland knowing full well that Scoot
is on his way, but like we still don't know
if Scoo is that guy. It's the same thing with them.
They need to find that dude within the next couple
of years. Is that going to be in this draft?
Who knows could be the next one. As long as
you get as many bites of the apple as humanly
possible over the next couple of years, that's all you
can do, really, I mean, and then do proper scouting
of course. Like then that's part of being determined in
going into rebuild. I think if you are an MP
organization going into rebuilding, you're not You're not investing in
like a worldwide scouting staff, and you're not like expanding
that staff. You're gonna be in for a rough start,
a rough middle, and a rough end.
Speaker 2: It's I don't know if I go as far as
comparing the Little Blazers, because at least the Blazers you
could say you mentioned Scoot, but you could in theory
say they might have two three candidates if you include Donovan,
Klingen and Shane and Sharp with the nets just don't
even have Yeah, that's fair unless your camp Thom is
pilled in which case I respect you.
Speaker 3: But no, but like you know, none of those three
right now are like locked in. You know, Luca Yanni's
wimpy times right like, and.
Speaker 2: They might be closer to like who has the Well,
this isn't the Western I was gonna say, Utah, this
isn't the Western Conference rebuilding podcasts, So we'll get to that.
Speaker 1: Have you.
Speaker 2: Has anything stood out to you about anyone who's currently
in place or just what they've done. I mean, Jordi Fernandez,
they had a really good half court offense when you
gave him any sort of talent at the beginning of
the year and now, like I think there are eleventh
in point slot per possession since January first. Nick Claxton's
done a great job on that end of the four
since around then too as well. After like maybe not
the best start, they're not getting it like super lucky
when it comes to opponent shooting necessarily during that stretch.
They're just anything that kind of stands out to you
about They're current when it comes to trying and informing
their future defense.
Speaker 3: Defense. I think they play on a string. I think
there there's a lot of cohesion there. I think they're
playing for one another, which is always a sign of
a good team. The problem is they can't produce on
the other side of the floor. We're looking at it
through like the competitive lens. Right, this is just a
team where it seems like there's good there are good vibes.
They want to actually achieve something together. And it's also
why it makes it hard to blow it apart. Like
I've seen plenty of nets fans actually say, look like
we're not winning. But I don't hate this product, Like
I don't hate any of these players. It's it's nice
to fall along like these are good guys. I like
to watch Cam Thomas. I like to watch Cam Johnson
before he was traded, like I like to watch Dorian
Finney Smith, like Nick Laxton. Even Ben Simmons was even
beginning to get a little bit appreciated. So it's it's
a really odd and weird dynamic of having to blow
apart a team that the family is actually likes. But
I understand why they like it. They this is a
team that's very unselfish. They go out and put in
the effort. I think they're in far more close games
than what most seems realized. Like they're not a pushover
and when you're what are they right now, like twenty
and thirty something. Yeah, Like you could probably like find
a lot of teams who are like, oh well, like
it's the fourth quarter, we're down twenty, Like we're not
gonna fight. These guys fight all the time. And if
that's not a sign of keeping on Jordy Fernandez, I
don't know what it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's they might have to fire him to
lose enough game, but.
Speaker 3: God, that'd be so bad. Now. This is like a
huge compliment to him, I think, and and for players
to buy into his system and his way of looking
at things, like they found a good one on the
bench there.
Speaker 2: It does see in that way, and I would echo
a lot of what you said about the way they play,
if you like when you watch the nets, like you
can kind of see the effort and at least there's
you know, they try and offset the talent deficit, Like
if they get a rebound, like they're gonna try and
run because they know that they just don't have without
Dennis Schuter. They're like they're not going to have someone
who could you know, manipulate the half core.
Speaker 1: They do have d Lo but so.
Speaker 2: That I like the principles that seems like what Jordy
does installed there, and I will you know, Nick Claxton,
I still think some people kind of felt veered away
and wonder if he was on a bad contract. I
think it's an innocuous contract at worse, and that is
they have like when you look at their front court players,
they have like set between him and then there's no
clowny like there's like some real source ability there. So
do you think I have two questions left? Do you
think that there's anyone on this team that you identify
and say okay, like they need to.
Speaker 1: Be here or they will be here or have a
shot at being here, like over the longer term.
Speaker 3: I that's a good question. I'm hoping that there are
some of the young guys who are just locked in
because they don't have the trade value as players yet
to fetch anything of significance, So you really have a
chance to nurture their development, like obviously Clowney that that
goes without saying Tareek Whitehead as well. I think there
are these players who you need to like see properly.
Can we get more out of this guy? Is there
more talent to squeeze, the more potential to squeeze. Now
they're in a tough spot with Cam Thomas, I think
because of the restricted free agency coming up. Fortunately for them, though,
that's a market and you and I've talked about this,
I think last week as well. You can pretty much
squeeze your own restricted free agent a pretty fair amount nowadays,
so maybe that's not gonna be an issue. I actually
realized something a couple of days ago. That Dayron Sharp
is also a restricted free agent. For some reason, that
just flew over my head.
Speaker 1: He's pretty good too the shoulders. How could you just
forget about him?
Speaker 3: I know? And he's like, he's such a good rebounder.
I actually enjoy watching him play. So they have a
couple things that they need to figure out, but like
if they can get those guys back on perfectly reasonable deals, yeah, absolutely,
like stay the course because you're not in the business
of just dumping talent. That'd be bad.
Speaker 2: Nick Klaxon is not a name that would stand out
to you. Is like someone that you think would stick around,
Like you view him as more of okay, I want
to say transient, but that'll be someone they eventually trade. No.
Speaker 3: Oh, I think he's I think he's gone, not necessarily
in this summer, but down the road first and foremost.
I think his value right now is the load it's
been in a couple of years. I think his raw
production has dropped off. That's unfortunate. I don't think that's
going to be a sustainable thing. I think he can
bounce back, and I think they're right in just waiting
it out, because his contract diminishes in value every single year.
So if he has a bounce back year and like
let's say he comes into next year, he averages fourteen
and eleven like Elite defense as usual, and we near
the trade deadline, some seems looking at that contract, going okay,
he's earning twenty five zero point three million this year,
and then it drops down to twenty three and to
twenty point nine. Hell yeah, let's go get that and
the Nets can sort of pick their price here. Yeah.
I don't think he's long for this roster in terms
of like twenty six, twenty seven. Why you're not losing
anything with him on the roster until they find the
right deal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you mentioned Darke Whitehead too. I still don't
have a great all the injuries that he's dealt with
and he has what eleven career games under his belt,
but like.
Speaker 1: There were some flashes. I think it was it was
towards the end of January.
Speaker 2: I can't remember the game, but like to see him
coming to the ball and hitting threes off the catcher,
like being able to operate a little bit more methodically
get into the lane off the dribble.
Speaker 1: I'd be curious if.
Speaker 2: We get like, like just what he could turn into,
just because he was so people were so high on
him coming out of high school. Specifically he was recruiting
rank in twenty twenty was number one. That's I don't
think he's anywhere near like a lottery ticket, but just
like there might be something there if he's able to
stay healthy, Like there just might be something there.
Speaker 3: And of course, like if they finally unleashed Trenton Watford,
they're gonna be right in the playoff mix. They just
won't for whatever reason.
Speaker 2: Well, that's they're not trying to win the championship this.
Speaker 1: Year, and that's I know their grant.
Speaker 2: There my final question on them, and I'm not I
actually didn't think they were gonna trade Cam Johnson. After
they traded I guess after the Luca trade, I just
would have you could have told me anything, yeah, be fair.
Speaker 1: But you look at this team. They didn't take back
any long term money this year.
Speaker 2: I think if if you kind of factor in dran
Phinney Smith's player option, they guaranteed themselves easier pass to
cap space this summer. Do you think do you view
that as more just sort of when you look back
on the trades and what they got, that it was
out of convenience, or do you kind of look at
them and say, no, I wasn't expecting them to go make,
you know, a run at Jimmy Butler had he been
still been a free agent, or go after James Harden
again if he opts out, like the kind of I
mentioned this at the time, and I'm still there, like
I've just kind of.
Speaker 1: Circled their cap spaces.
Speaker 2: Okay, this team might do something weird over the summer
because it feels like they actively prioritize keeping it right.
Speaker 3: So I think this is they want to keep their
options open. Remember how Sean Marks was like the biggest
troll in twenty sixteen. I think it was twenty sixteen,
right when he like he he gave the offer sheets
out and Crab he gave back like he gave out
a ton of offer sheets.
Speaker 1: Were they that Johnson offer sheet?
Speaker 3: All right? Yeah? And they ended up with him? Right? No? No?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: Wait, second that Miami matched and then traded for him
later or was that crab odd? I don't even remember both.
Speaker 2: I think Tyler Johnson and Allen Crab eventually ended up
with the Nets even though they're offer sheets right, were matched?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Now see, I wouldn't be surprised if the Nets
actually did something similar this time around, because they also
know that the second Apron stuff is real. We've seen
that now that teams are not crazy about not having
that flexibility, so for them to just kind of push
the price point up and maybe actually get good players
in return because of it, or are potentially calling up
teams that are deep within the second Apron after they
may have realized, you know, we can't go anywhere, like
what are we to do? And then that's are like, well,
we can give you immediate salary relief, Like that's that's
a thing that exists, and it'll cost you draft picks,
but we're right here for it. Like are those teams
ready to commit to such a deal we don't know.
That remains to be seen, but you can use cap
space in way more ways than just as on free agents.
So I'm pretty I'm pretty excited actually to see what
does with this. I think I would love a return
for him to just be the biggest troll. I would
love that because it forces other teams to make really
uncomfortable decisions and frankly, that's how you play the game.
Speaker 2: I was looking at in prep of this, like restricted
free agents for this summer and trying to fit the
way you phrased it to him be a troll. Yeah,
what is the name where you could just see Sean
Marks throwing a megap like, not even with the attention
of actually getting them, but to fuck with the other
team's books. The two I came up with, Yeah, where
Jonathan Kaminga.
Speaker 1: And Santi al Dama and Aldama.
Speaker 2: I feel like, maybe that doesn't make too much sense
because you have Claxton and maybe you want to keep
around sharp like Aldama could probably play next to either
of them, but he almost feels too gettable because of
how cost conscious Memphis is. But those were the two
that I kind of because I don't think it'll be Giddy.
That would surprise me a little bit.
Speaker 3: I was just about to say they should fuck with
the Bulls for this reason, because of this thing, Like
the Bulls are so infatuated with saving face. This is
something we know about them. They do not want to
lose face. They gave up that deal, like they gave
up Caruso for Josh Giddy. They've started him all year long,
despite the fact that he's not a freaking starter. He's
been bad for them. They are absolutely in a tight
spot when it comes to him. So it would be
the funniest thing ever if Sean Marx goes out and
like signs him to an offer sheet wor it's like
twenty million a year, and the post are like, well,
that's that's just low enough to the point where we
can't we can't just let him walk because we look
like like dumb asses, which they are, but that's a
different point. They'll never want to admit that. So Sean
Marks go troll the fuck out of the Chicago Bulls.
Speaker 2: Isn't that a bit just like stabbing someone when they're
already dead? Though, if you do that to the Bulls
at this point, it's like the bulls self sabotage.
Speaker 1: They don't need any help with it.
Speaker 3: That's true, but it would be funny. And this is
for my amusement.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they just have.
Speaker 2: They both have like Josh Giddy and Patrick Learns for
the next four years or making twenty five million or
between them, like forty million bucks a pot.
Speaker 3: That'd be so bad.
Speaker 1: This is so I think at.
Speaker 2: The end we'll ask of these teams, maybe who's like
future would you be highest on, or like, what are
your vibes if we had a vibe meter of one
to ten, what are you like your vibes on the
Brooklyn's rebuild.
Speaker 3: So it's so early though, right, I mean it's like
if they win the lottery and go with Cooper Flag.
I mean, the vibes instantanely the league grow much more
intense and higher and whatnot. But like, I do think
that they have the approach to this. So my vibes,
if I'm a NETS fan, they're pretty high.
Speaker 2: I mean I think just because you don't know what's
gonna happen, but like you've positioned yourself for flexibility, you
have the year's pick, next year's pick, my vibes will
probably be like at a seven point two, not like
astronomically high, but a seven.
Speaker 3: And this is out of ten because you never gave
me a scale, Like if it's seven point two out
of ten million, I wouldn't have a chance.
Speaker 1: Tib scale from one to ten.
Speaker 3: You did. Oh all right, all right, all right, so.
Speaker 2: I'll go seven point two. Look now we're gonna do
a vibe meter for every team?
Speaker 3: How did you get to point two?
Speaker 1: Though? What's that?
Speaker 3: How did you get to point two?
Speaker 2: Proprietary formula? The contents of which I cannot reveal?
Speaker 3: Sorry, Right, it's like when food bloggers go to a place,
it's like, oh, this is like four point six one,
Like how the fuck it gets the number?
Speaker 2: So the person who wants to be super thorough in
me would try and look at this in like a
bunch of different categories. But I don't think it makes
for necessarily good podcasting. But I kind of look at
when it comes to long term player equity, right, you
can't have great I just don't know that they have
a ton of that. But when you're looking at flexibility, coaching,
and then like understanding and alignment among the front office,
I really think they hit on all three of those boxes,
which like the flexibility. They're going to have more cap
space than probably the entire Western Conference like this, just
like they're flexibility and as you mentioned, and Keith Smith
says this all the time, cap space.
Speaker 1: Is not just for free agency.
Speaker 2: But that's why I just have them circled because it's
you also don't have that much cap space without a
reason to use it.
Speaker 1: Or intention of using it. Yeah, are you ready to
move on to our next team? Absolutely, the Charlotte Hornets.
Speaker 2: More, where do you want to We'll alternate here, So
where do you want to take the discussion on on
these Hornets? Is Mark Williams still a member of the Hornets?
How do we factor him in?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: No, I that's the thing. So so that whole situation
is super uncomfortable for him, and I suppose the organization too.
I see it would be who both parties to just
basically say, look, like, Mark, you're staying home for the
rest of the season. We have nothing to play for regardless,
like there's no reason for you to get injured, Like,
let's get you into the summer. Let's see then and
then we work together on a deal from there, because
like our relationship obviously can't continue after this whole deboggle,
which is super like unfortunate all things considered. I keep
hearing only good things about Marcus Well, so yeah, that's
that's that sucks in terms of like where they have
to go. I don't know, man, it's such a hard
team to get smart on because you're sort of at
the whimsy of LaMelo in many ways. You're also stuck
with a guy who has divided the fan base because
of what he's done. Obviously, you don't really.
Speaker 1: Have a lot of like what did Trey Man do?
Speaker 3: What did Man do? Sor right, go ahead, that's a
good one. Outside of Brandon Miller. You really don't have
you know that guy yet, maybe Salon becomes that down
the line, like maybe someone else steps up. But m m,
that's that seems like a stretch. So like, what are
you what are you actually trying to do? Do you
want to give LaMelo just free reign moving forward? Like,
because I get the whole he's fun part, but I
do think it's fair to ask, is he also like
a top tier superstar? I don't think so, and I
don't think he's anywhere close to it personally.
Speaker 1: So let's actually depend a second on that.
Speaker 2: Then, great, what do you when you mean top tier
superstar and that he's not even like, so what would
be the like what player or player type are you
comparing him to?
Speaker 3: Right? So, actually it's not really the players. What I
usually what I do is I try to look at
the stat lines, and I'm kind of gauging is his
numbers like more volatile than his influence, like, because there
are certain guys who are just way more influential than
the numbers jest and vice versa. I think he's getting
closer to being worth like his statline. I've been very
down on him in the past. I do think this
year he's done better in many many categories. But I
still think he's a guy who put up these huge
numbers without necessarily having the actual impact behind it. I
think he is so unpredictable that it comes at the
cost of also his teammates, who are like, what the
hell just happened? Like, I don't even understand, what did
you just take a thirty seven foot pull up shot
with like twenty two left on the shot clock and
nobody in rebounding position? There are just one of There
are so many small things where I'm like, ah, if
he just dialed back this, or if he just scaled
up this, then we're talking about a guy who would
be somewhat justified of his statistical production at least. And
I just don't think he's there yet. That's not to
say that won't come. I do think he needs a
system in place where he's being rained back in the
right ways. He's ultra talented. He needs a coach who
understands how to maximize his effort level his skill set,
and I don't know if he has that right now.
Speaker 2: I think that might be fair in the sense of
where a lot of people look at him, like the
Hornets are just they're better with him on the floor,
and when I watch them, that might have to do
with the talent around him, but that's also part of it, Okay,
like they're working off a low baseline without him, But
that's also if your biggest look. I watched the Mellow
and there are things that I wish he did more
all the time. There's like the rigid defensive stances, like
he has the tools to be way better or us
stay more consistent than he's ever been on defense. You
mentioned like putting him in kind of the right situation,
and I think that that really has to come down to, right, well,
then improve the talent that's around him, because there is
talent around him, Like Mark is a perfect example, whether
you like him or think he's overrated in terms of
a defensive prospect or somehow underrated there, we just haven't
seen enough of him. And like you just got Brandon
Miller really in the building, LaMelo's not healthy last year,
Brandon Miller's not going to play again this season. That
gets it gets really really tough to evaluate, Like what
would he be on the like a better team, because
I don't think they've given him one. And so to
sit here and say the fact that he can improve
the product of a of a let's say a bad team,
I assign real value to that. And until I see
him undermine what should be a winning situation, I find
it really weird that like some and I'm not again
I'm not saying this is you, but like a lot
of the conversations around him just focus on like he's
not a winner is basically what it boils down to.
And if you look at like the quality of the
like the talent around him in catch all metrics per
Peopall Index, he's had one year where like he's ever
had even close to an above average supporting cast around him,
and even this year they're in the twelfth percentile, last
year eighth percentile of teammate quality.
Speaker 1: So that's like, that's not everything.
Speaker 2: I want to make it clear, but I'm not here
to say that I think he's on the level of Luca,
or if he's on the level of Staph or just
anyone that you would build a championship contender around, as
just the a one. When I rule it out, I'm
probably gonna be more stubborn and say no, I won't.
Speaker 1: Rule it out.
Speaker 2: But like I watch the way he plays and stuff
that he can still do away from the ball if
you put him in a situation that will have him
off it more, I think that he could absolutely be
the second best player on a really good team, and
I think that might be why I'll probably higher on
their future than a lot of other people. And even
to move it away from a mellow because I think
this is like a great point that you made, like
the word you use this situation. While the Hornets have
not given him a good enough one yet, it does
feel like and please correct me if you disagree I'll
throw it to you here. This front office regime, the
people who are in charge now. The only thing that
I've really loathed from them is the Miles Bridges and
that's a big thing, like the way they handled it.
But also than giving him that contract, I thought they
had more leverage there. I don't think that's a great deal.
But they understand on a basketball court, it seems like
they understand the plot of what needs to happen. And
they've kind of reiterated as much last year's trade deadline
when you trade PG Washington, even this year's trade deadline,
like kind of taking some foresight to soak up the
use of NRDIC deal. Whether you thought they got enough
as different. But that mindset to me is agreed.
Speaker 1: Hey they get it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I agree with that. It's just if you
have the right process, but you then in the draft,
for example, choose guys who may not necessarily be the
best pieces to an overarching puzzle, then you kind of
still fall short. Like I'm not out on Brandon Miller whatsoever.
I do wonder if he is going to be because,
like I said this, I think last year I was like,
this guy could be the best player on the Hornets,
like this could be the guy who could actually allow
LaMelo to be that secondary guy where I think he
would be unleashed in a far more effect the way,
But there's also an element of Brandon Miller where his
amount of trigger happiness at times comes at the cost
of overall team cohesion. Now they're young, so like they
have time, but LaMelo is on a big deal. He's
also like one thing by the way, that I forgot
to mention about LaMelo, which is, I don't want to
say it's like fully out of his control, but mostly
it's out of his control. Its availability. Like injuries happen,
but if you consistently missed that many games year in
and year out, I'm sorry. Then just becomes one of
those embeat situations where it doesn't matter how good you are,
if you can't be relied upon being healthy going into
a playoff series, for example, you just automatically put a
cap on your ceiling. But like Brandon Miller, to me,
if he becomes a more consistent two way player, which
I think is in the cards, he's twenty two, right,
like something along those lines, like I'm not out on
anyone who's twenty two and.
Speaker 2: I think as of now, you remember everyone was killing
them for even with how well he's playing at the moment,
like there's still a debate of well, should they should
have just gone Scoot at that point, Like that wasn't
even a question until Scoot started started playing better, And
I think the right answer would still be no.
Speaker 1: They were right to default to Brandon Miller.
Speaker 3: They were I was wrong.
Speaker 1: I was wrong. I was wrong, great man, We've had
some misses on this podcast. That was what our bigger one. Look.
Speaker 3: I mean I had missus. But by the way, when
you said earlier that this wasn't coined on you, like
not calling LaMelo a winner, for example, that is coined
on me because I said as much last year. I
last year, I was like, I don't think he's a winner.
I was. I've been very harsh on him because I
thought I saw someone who was tremendously undisciplined, like tremendously undisciplined,
and frankly, someone who his teammates were like very often
just the body language towards him was very dismissive, was
very frustrated, where I was like, oh, oh that that's
not great. We've seen a different version this year, we've
seen players embrace him a little bit more. I do
think he's gonna be a guy who matures. He also
needs to, because he has extremely poor habits both on
and off the court that needs to be addressed. Frankly,
So it's maybe it's time. Maybe maybe time is your
friend here. But at the same time, you've got to
pay guys like after this year, Brandon Miller only has
two years left on his rookie deal. Then you've got
to re up him. So, like the clock is ticking here.
They but they need to find someone in the draft
this year who just kind of, you know, glues everything together.
You know what they need. They need a loule old
dang type, that's what they need. Someone who's like, not
a star, will just come in and play effective two
way basketball. And I'm not saying like as a wing
necessarily because they have a ton of wings, just someone
who is just the glue to everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't even know what I would identify as
their biggest neede. I think you can make a case
that it's a long term solution at the five, just
because that's Mark Williams. But I think I guess I'm
a little bit more optimistic about their timeline where type, look,
it is, okay, it's two years before Brandon Miller, you're
gonna extend Brandon Miller. But like so it's two years
more years before that money kicks in, and then that's
sort of okay. Then LaMelo has two years left on
his current contract. It's like that's sort of like a
nice pivot point. It seems like it aligns nicely. You did,
what's really interesting? And so I haven't given enough thought
to this, maybe because this year's draft class has been
all over the place. But do we look back at
the t Jon Salon pick, because right now, I think
that dude plays insanely hard. I do not understand or
I don't have a feel for what he could be
in the NBA yet at this point. And that's kind
of when you're gonna come out with such a high
draft pick. And that's what we're gonna say this far
into his rookie season. It's I don't ever want to
write off it. Like Cody Williams, I had him atop
my big board. I'm not ready to write him off yet.
But like what we've seen thus far, or more actly
what we have not seen, like it is. It is concerning,
So there is there's definitely that level of pressure there,
and I do wonder if they'll have the stomach to
because I say, I'm happy or not happy. But they
have two years, like before Brandon Miller's next contract is
is bigger, but like you need to understand and this
is the tough part of rebuilding, Okay, when is the
right time to go for it? And you don't get
to say that, I would say this summer, even if
you wind up with a top five pick, because you're
i think projected to at this point, because you still
kind of need to see, well, what does that player
turn into? With Brandon Miller and LaMelo Ball, so they
are they're on sort of a slippery slope. But I
think the fact that even LaMelo and we know it
doesn't work like this, but he's under team control for
four more years after this one. Brandon Miller's under team
control for even longer when you factor in how these
extensions work. Yeah, if they have the stomach to kind
of see this through, they have a real amount of time.
And I also think, to LaMelo's credit and I agree,
like there's just off court stuffloading around out there, that yeah, yeah,
he's young, but it's also it gives you pause. It's
never seemed like there's nothing unless you've heard differently. I've
never heard a thing about he wants out. He's like
sort of looking at me. He's not happy here. That's
a big deal.
Speaker 3: Yep. I guess it's Charlotte, but just.
Speaker 2: Like it's not even because it's Charlotte, it's this team
has been this organization like it's lacked coherence, I would
say until recently.
Speaker 1: And so you could even if.
Speaker 2: You were in like maybe you could if if the
Los Angeles Lakers were pulling this BS okay, maybe you
get away with it. But there's probably twenty four franchises
if they had kind of followed the same trajectory as
the Hornet since.
Speaker 1: LaMelo entered the league.
Speaker 2: There's a probably a ton of organizations that would then
see their best player during that span would have wanted out.
But no, or you would have heard mumblings about it,
unless there's anything is there? Well, so you mentioned Brandon Miller.
Is there anything is in particular about his game where
you're viewing it as sort of the swing factors as
he projects or doesn't project as a star so.
Speaker 3: There's definitely a part of his current efficiency that's just
you know, tough cities, honestly, where he's just not hitting
that I can't look that's that's no. But like sometimes
it's a Magan misleague, right, So I'm not going to
fold him like right now, he's he's you know, he's
injured obviously, but he's he's hitting like forty percent from
the field on the year. I don't think that's representative
who he is. He's missed a lot of open shots,
at least from what I've seen. I actually haven't pulled
the numbers up, but I'm pretty sure they'll back me up.
I'll be a little bit surprised if they don't. That said,
he's a very sneaky athletic and at six ' nine,
like slithery type of guy. I want to see him
attack the paint a lot more. I think he gets
into these I don't know what it is like attacking
philosophies where he's like, no, no, no, my best ascid
is like the three and I just got a jacket.
It's I just I wanted a little bit more nuanced there.
I spoke with him during the draft or before the draft,
in New York two years ago, and everything he was
talking about was leadership, Like he had to play like leader,
he had to act like a leader, he had to
do all these things where he had to put his
best foot forward. And you know, I believe him, but
I still need to like see it. And maybe that's
a third year jump. Could be I'm not knocking it.
It could be a thing, but we need to see more.
As for your salon thing, I have a theory of
how he's gonna end up, like if he's gonna get
a real crack. I think he's a play finisher, and
I think when you try to put the ball in
his hands and ask him to create, you're sort of
negating what his real skill is. He to me, seems
like someone who has a really strong sense of how
to be set up and how to position himself. So
I would like to see him in a role where
he's not being asked to create, where he's not being
asked to like get you know, from outside the three
point line, like go do something. He needs to be
someone who just kind of catches and shoots, you know,
rolls and catches and then goes straight up. He needs
to be someone who's like set up eighty five percent
of the time and then just focuses on Yeah, I
have to finish plays because that's gonna take offensive pressure
off of Brandon Miller. It's gonna make LaMelo's life a
little bit easier. And I also think that's part of
how you unlock LaMelo, because if there's one compliment I'll
give LaMelo that I haven't paid him. His court vision
is so much better than what we're seeing in terms
of the raw stats production. Like that's the one area
where I think he's he has more influence than what
his line suggests. His court is exceptional and he needs
to utilize it way way way more.
Speaker 1: Put better options around him, and I think he might.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think I do think he's one
of the best at creating like high quality shots for teammates.
Speaker 1: Like there's a real on ball gravity to him.
Speaker 2: And like you said, the vision, I don't know if
I see it with claw on the way you do,
but I would probably agree that that would be the
most efficient path. Or Okay, if he's going to be
you typically don't. I'm trying to think of what would
be a good example of a higher quality NBA player
where like that's because the player you just describe feels
like they're a big and he's not. Defensively, I don't
think you're ever going to see him at least stably
play a bunch of five. So what is like, I'm like,
what are the pro comps for him coming out of college?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's He's like, yeah, well play he would need
to add like how many inches this vertical? I he's
I don't know if I have like a comp, but
I think that is the way to use him, at least,
like if he's not going to be a starter. Okay,
I do see a pathway for him to become like
a solid rotational piece, but like you have to streamline
his role significantly.
Speaker 1: There was I guess the pro coom that I just
googled it.
Speaker 2: So that's not and I'm now remembering Obi Toppin was
the comp that would use for him a lot.
Speaker 3: Also very athletic.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah there's I guess that's sort of just play finisher.
Speaker 1: Though.
Speaker 2: It just feels like those guys are objectively tougher to
fit into the higher level of rotation. If they're not,
I don't want to say, if they're not a big man.
But if they're not a really strong offender.
Speaker 3: That's fair. That is fair. But like again, he's nineteen,
let's not rule that out yet. I think that's.
Speaker 1: Also incredibly fair. Uh.
Speaker 2: The only other question I want to ask you about
this team unless you have anything else you want to
touch upon, of course interesting or is it.
Speaker 1: Not really an interesting decision?
Speaker 2: Like they don't have a lot or of tough decisions
to make This off seem like trade man going into
free agency. That's someone who we haven't seen like a
ton of this year because he got injured so early on.
But when he came over in the trade from Oklahoma
City last year, like he's shown and including this season,
like just a ton of sort of shake, some mon
ball juice, some shooting. And he's been ruled out for
the year because of the back injury. That's gonna allumit
him to put he playing thirteen games. How do you
view I don't think there's going to be a super
robust market for him. But is this someone you're Charlotte,
you're looking to keep around.
Speaker 3: I guess yeah, absolutely, especially because you can now squeeze
his market even more, which is which sounds horrible.
Speaker 2: Let me utilize more over here advocating the repression of
the working time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a total scap right now. It's horrible. No,
it's but like that's just the nature of the NBA,
right like there, that's that's how you negotiate. You're gonna
go to trade man, Like no, I hear you, I
hear you. It's just that's gonna be a thing. They're
probably gonna get back for cheap. I assume it's going
to be a short term deal, like a two year
or something.
Speaker 1: In them if you maybe you inflate his salary for
a little bit, and like then he becomes if a
trade opportunity arises.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they so vibe vibe meter check, what would you
give the Rebuilding Hornets?
Speaker 3: Uh six point one two four nine.
Speaker 1: Six point one two four nine. That feels a little low.
So you're would you would you say you're high or
lower on the vibes than in Brooklyn.
Speaker 3: I'm much lower here on the vibes. It's the Brooklyn vibes.
Like dig I think this team has more talent though,
so like if we if we bake talent into the
vibes section, I'll go like one full up. So seven
point one. I don't even remember them.
Speaker 1: You're trolling me, But I'm gonna give them an a
point four.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Okay, fair enough, that's high.
Speaker 1: That's high that they have. There's a chance. I'm not
guaranteeing it.
Speaker 2: But then they already have done the two hardest things
of a rebuild, and that's get Lamello and Bread and
Miller in place.
Speaker 3: Right, huge chance to win the New York lottery too.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, but they've also accumulated now some extra first
round draft equity moving forward, so they could be, you know,
proactive if the right trade opportunity rises.
Speaker 3: I'm trolling you on that one, yes, yes, but I'm not.
I'm not that high though, I like, in all legitimacy,
I'm not eight point four because again, if like let's
say LaMelo is just that dude who misses forty games
per year.
Speaker 2: Then what you've lowered me, I'll go eight point one.
The jury risks with LaMelo.
Speaker 1: You know what it is.
Speaker 2: You know what my rebuke is, and I want to
make it clear it's not rational or fair. People thought
the same thing about Steph. We're talking to ankle injuries again,
and so like in the back of my head, it's
I'll probably wait another year or two before I get
really concerned about it.
Speaker 1: But that is the availability.
Speaker 2: I think people hate that argument because they feel like
it's lazy, but it's it's the it's probably the most
like salient one when it comes to the mellow two.
Dude needs to play more games for consecutive years.
Speaker 3: Right and look, I hope for his sake that he
figures that out. I also hope, for his sake just
wrap this up, that he starts striving a little bit
more carefully.
Speaker 1: We'll move on to the next team, Your Chicago Bulls.
Speaker 3: Now you're trolling me.
Speaker 1: Are they even rebuilding? Is the question that I think
we begin here with.
Speaker 3: Uh, based on what our Tori's Corner Show was said
after the trade that like, no, because they're still they're
still trying to make the play.
Speaker 2: That was the the NBA version of the concepts of
a plan.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I but is there a level of you that unless
you don't consider it candor but where him just kind
of saying like, not in this exact words, but we
really have no idea what the fuck is going on
right now?
Speaker 1: We're trying to You were.
Speaker 3: Less said it, He said they had to use like
the remaining forty something game to figure out a plan. Like, dude,
you've been there since twenty two, Like though, if you're
if you're looking at the limit or sort of the
launch of ball injury and like, oh, that really threw
us off. That happened in what early twenty twenty two?
Like what are we doing here? It's it's an embarrassment.
I you know you're trolling me with this one because
this used to be my former team. You're absolutely right,
that's what.
Speaker 1: I have found. The Chicago Bulls like they.
Speaker 3: Exist nothing I know, but like you put them on
this list because we're and we're doing a rebuilding episode,
which I think it's fair to say we have no
idea if they really are. We know that the Hornets are,
we know that the Nets are. The Bulls are just
like stuck in whatever world they seem to live in
where the only thing that matters is people showing up
to the game. Like, for example, their viewerships are way
way way down now. There are granted some issues there
in terms of like availability with their new sports then
and whatnot, but like that's not something they care about. Allegedly,
all they care about is season ticket sales, which is
like a great way to measure organizational strengths if you're
in nineteen eighty five. It's just like they're always behind
the curve, and I just don't anticipate them ever being
in front of it. I think if they luck out
and draft Cooper Flag, They're going to be like, look,
that was our plan all along.
Speaker 1: We're going to.
Speaker 3: Rebuild around this guy. And you'll unfortunately find like one
hundred thousand Chicagoans who are like, oh my god, that's
a great plan, great work, guys, Executive of the year,
which is just not the case. This team historically relies
almost exclusively on luck to get out of bad situations.
That Derek Rose draft is a perfectly solid example of that.
They had what one point seven one point eight percent
chance of that becoming the first overall pick. I like
Bricilli's I like him. I don't think he's as good
as Bulls fans are trying to hype him up as
and I think that's I don't even blame them. I
just think they need to cling into onto something for hope,
and that's the guy they're like, oh, he dunk's really good.
That means he's gonna be a good player, Okay, Like
I could see a scenario worrying he becomes a perfectly
solid NBA player, even a two way guy. He's got
a good shot blocking rate, He's he's got some defensive instincts.
Do I think he's gonna be like a star? I'd
be very, very surprised.
Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say you don't think he'd
be a star. I maybe I'm like too high on him,
is my baseline for the bulls, too low. I think
he's been incredible this year and there's some real I
know you mentioned like there's the dumps, but like there's
some real just like the combination of physicality and some
of the finishing on his drives are not the most
efficient right now. He's been better as a three point
shooter than I expected. And I think the two things
I think it surprised me the most about him. I
didn't think he would be this maybe the word's not ready,
but disruptive already defensively, just because I look at someone
that big who plays like a wing let's slay on offense,
and he's done some real big man stuff on the
defensive end. And then I didn't think he was gonna
shoot like or not shoot like there's like a handle there.
Maybe I just didn't watch enough of him like in
preparation for the draft.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think that he has.
Speaker 2: A higher ceiling than I initially anticipated. And that decision,
and I would say the Lonzo Ball extension like her
two that I feel like pretty comfortable with if I'm
a Bulls fan. It's like, maybe that's the And I
was an advocate of trading Kobe White, like you have
Kobe White there, and you should get a high draft
pick this year. I guess I look at this team
and aside from echoing a lot of the things that
you've already said, you do still have to wonder if
you can even talk yourself into trusting the decision making
processes here because even the zach Lavine trade, Okay, they
finally traded zach Lvine, but it's it feels like they
decided that having the rights to their own first round pick,
that they could if they were rebuilding properly, they could
just have kept This wasn't like the Nets in Houston situation,
where Houston controlled those outright. It was top ten protected
and then top eight for two years now. I tried
to rationalize it from there and by saying, well, they
clearly now this opens it up for the next two years.
If you're a built Bulls fan, that's almost terrifying because
as well, now leaders trade that.
Speaker 1: Pick really easily, Like do they look at it.
Speaker 2: And say, Okay, now we get to tank unencumbered if
we're better than expected on accident, fine, or is it well,
now we don't have to tank, and so let's ratchet
this up again.
Speaker 1: Baby.
Speaker 3: Look, that's and that's the thing you don't ever know.
And while I can certainly appreciate that there's a managerial
team in plays that never show their hands, it's because
they don't have a hand. It's because they don't have
a plan. Like you know that saying of it's better
to be quiet and to be looked like you're stupid
and instead of opening your mind your mouth and then confirming.
Speaker 4: It like that's heard of that maybe that's a dating
saying to hear that, but that's the saying at least
over here, And basically I think that's what Ak is
kind of doing.
Speaker 3: Like he always comes off like, oh, I'm fully aware
of what I'm I'm doing, and then suddenly he'll just
sit down in a draft boat or like at a
podium and go, yeah, we'll find a plan. We'll have
to come up with a plan, and just completely blow
the solution that they know what they're doing when they
clearly don't. By the way, I like, I don't disagree
with you on Busella's Like, I do think that he's
got some pop, he's got some juice. Like, I'm not
saying that he's gonna be bad. I don't think he is.
I think he's gonna be a full time starter. I
think he's gonna be personally fine NBA player. I just
don't see, you know, multiple All Stars in his future.
I'd love to be wrong. I would love to be wrong.
That'd be amazing, But I don't necessarily think he has
that game. We've been over this on informal podcast with
Kobe White. I think they messed up my not trading
him before the deadline because that would have made him
eligible for one more you know, playoff year for other
teams that could have had him for two years and
stuff just one now, so his value is going to
decline going into the summer. I don't understand why they
took on the contracts of Kevin Herder and Sack Collins.
That to me still seems a little bit hot the
lawnso ball thing. I agree with you in principle that
it wasn't the worst thing to happen, but it did.
It did came out that they had an offer on
him that included a first round pick. Now, granted, first
round picks that can mean a lot of things like
is it an unprotected from a team that's in the lottery?
Speaker 2: Probably not, And wasn't part of getting Bradley Beal from
Phoenix or something?
Speaker 3: Right? Like we don't know, right, Like, we don't know
what type of first round traff pick was available, but
one was. So you're looking at that situation going all right,
is extending Alonzo and then trading him on a smaller
contract better or like, are we sure we can get
that same offer in Again, I don't know the answer
to that. I probably would have opted for the safe
route and then just taken on that draft pick. But
that's me. That's that's because I want to play it safe,
because I don't trust the Bulls to do anything.
Speaker 2: That's a great segue to what I actually wanted to
ask you. I actually like the deal for the reasons
that I'm about to outline, but I also think everything
that I'm about to throw at you, those will be
sort of the cross sections of the offseason that the fine,
what is this team actually trying to do? And so
if you have Lonzo on your books, and I want
to make it clear, he's not the same players as
any of these guys, and there are mega questions about
his health, right, does it make it less likely that
they're just gonna let Josh Giddy bend them over a
barrel somehow?
Speaker 1: And restricted free agency?
Speaker 2: Because I think that the two players that I would
look at leading into this offseason as Okay, what are
the Bulls doing? What happens with Kobe White? If he's
still on this team in the next season, I would
be all sorts of worried about, Well, they're just gonna
give this guy. I'm not saying he's not worth the money,
but he won't be worth the money to a team
on the Bulls this trajectory, I would argue in his
next deal. But if they don't even entertain offers for him,
and then if you pay Josh Giddy like and look,
he's been he's been fined like, I still don't think
Josh Giddy is good. He's been hitting like forty percent
of his three since January first. Everything that bolls fans
or anyone who's a Josh Giddy advocate will and he's
got like he's got some stands, which I guess kudos
to his brand.
Speaker 1: We've seen this movie before.
Speaker 2: It never sticks and you're never gonna find out with
the current iteration of the bulls how unuseful he can
be in the playoffs. Go back and watch some Oklahoma
City games in the playoffs and notice maybe what's happening
when he's on the floor, more importantly, when he's not
on the floor. He's been fine by his own standards,
but the fact that they traded for him makes me wonder, well,
how much are they gonna pay him in restricted free agency?
And so I'm looking at him, I'm looking at Kobe
White as the decisions they make with those two players
will define their direction more I think than anything else.
Like maybe you could look at, well, who are they
gonna you could look at or will they make any
other trades? But I think those two players, specifically, what
happens with them is what I'm watching and so I
looked at the Lonzo Ball extension and the two things
that stood out was, okay, the low number he could
fit into someone's non tax payerment level, and maybe that
was part of the calculus for them, But I didn't
actually see the report about them having a first round
pick on the table and when they took back such
bad money in the zach Lavine trade with it only
goes out another year each, But for Zach Collins and
Kevin Herder, that's actually wild then that they wouldn't have
taken that. But I also looked at it and said,
does it may get less likely or even more likely
that because none of us expect them to just tell
Josh Giddy to walk when you traded Alex Caruso for him.
Speaker 1: But does it give.
Speaker 2: Them some cover or just embolden them to not pay
Josh Giddy twenty five thirty million dollars a year? And
I want to make this clear, you don't need to
tell me what that's worth as a percentage of the
salary cap people. He's not worth it like that amount
of money per year. I don't that's me Maybe Galaxy
branding it and giving the bulls too much credit, especially
because they do different things. Those were the two kind
of lenses through which I was looking at this, right.
Speaker 3: I hate the fact that that we sort of have
to look at it through that perspective though, Like does
this allow them It shouldn't matter, Like you should be
able to in a vacuum look at Josh Gideyon and
go hell no, just no, go away, like you're not
you're not a long term piece. Just it's that should
be pretty easy to identify. But with the Bulls, it's
always and to correctly outline this, it's that's the way
they're thinking, like is there a way we can sort
of save face by doing a B and C before
we do D. You can't think like that As an
NB organization, You're always gonna be behind the curve. And
this is what they've done for years. So like to
your answer, yes, it like keeping Lonzo will in many
ways make it easier for them to just not match
an offer sheet, like all right, let's see if an
offer sheet even comes in. I don't know what their
plan is here. I don't know if they want to
look at the rest of the season and then lay
up land and then go into next year thinking well,
full training camp with Kevin Herder and Sack Collins. Maybe
Pat Williams like bounce us back a little bit. We
can be right into that eight to ten spot again,
Like I just can't rule it out, Dan, and we
can sit here and say, well, if they do a
then that probably suggests that they're leaning towards rebuilt. But
like we thought, trading sac Lavine would be that, you know,
the smoking gun. And then Ak goes out and tells
the press, no, no, we're still trying to make the postseason.
Speaker 2: I think you still can hold out. However, scant like
hope that that is what it does signal. And they
didn't trade Vouch either. I think the off season is
gonna have a lot to say. I think they've bought
themselves not benefit of the doubt. But okay, let's see
what happens in the off season. My vibe meter here,
my vibe Jack is still because I like Bousella. Because
they actually did trade zach Lavine, it's probably a two
point eight. That's that's that's inflated because of all the
questions that we both it's so ambiguous.
Speaker 1: That's a problem after all these years and something eight.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they have at least opened the door by
trading zach Lavine to me saying maybe they had their
revelatory come to Jesus moments and it came too late,
or it should have come way sooner, but they did
move him, and let's see what decisions they now make
over the offseason.
Speaker 3: So, because that realization came so late, and because everything's
basically always late for the Bulls, I'm also gonna go
with two point eight, but I'm gonna go minus. I'm
gonna go negative two point eight on the vibe meter
here for the Bulls. I have zero faith in their
ability whatsoever. It's like, what is that that movie with
Adam Sandler where he gives like the most stupid answer
to a question and that like.
Speaker 2: At an Adam Sandler movie the point at an Adam
Sandler movie.
Speaker 3: That is fair, No, but like it's a specific movie
where there's a guy who gives like that is incorrect
and like make God have mercy on your soul.
Speaker 1: Like this Billy Madison game.
Speaker 3: There we go. That's right, that one, Like that is
how I look at the Bulls, like perpetually whenever they
do a thing. That's that That video just plays in
my head, that's just that's the bulls. I don't trust
them to even get a draft pick. Right, that's where we.
Speaker 1: Are minus two point eight, all right, I favor it.
Speaker 2: That's I think it's it's brutal, but it's it's deservedly brutal.
Next up is the Detroit Pistons, who are in the
playoff hunt. But this is still You don't look at
this team what they did over the offseason and say.
Speaker 1: Okay, they've completed their rebuilt, right, that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2: I just think some there's a negative We we celebrate
the moves that teams make to enter fox blown rebuilds,
but if they've been there longer, then we think they
should be we it has a negative connotation to it, right,
the word rebuilding. So I want to make it clear
this is not us trying to you know, drum up
Piston's utility talk. How are you feeling or what what
does this season change for this team moving forward?
Speaker 1: I think is actually the biggest question.
Speaker 3: Oh a lot, a lot. This team has found an identity,
like and they've done it despite a couple things Like
I think if we were to look at the current
success of this team going into this year, we were
all would be assuming that, oh, you know, that kid
obviously reaching this level that he's on, that Jayden Ivy sorry,
would just be way up higher than even this. And
I think Jalen Duran, we'd been talking about him like, oh,
then he's probably taken like a Dwight leap. Jalen Duran
is actually not having the best type of season for
his standards. So for them to have this success while
some of their young players are unavailable and have been unavailable,
and with some of them not necessarily playing up to expectations, huge,
That's huge because it gives the more room to improve further.
Like if everyone comes back healthy next year and are
more healthy than they've been this year, if Durtan has
improved and Ivy's improved healthy, if even Kate takes a
little another step in the right direction, then who's to
say this team couldn't you know, get it go all
in and have a top four seed. I can't rule
that out. It's it speaks so much to the necessity
of getting rid of the team that was in place
last year, Like managerial wise, coaching wise, everything had to go.
That was the right call, Like I'm not crowning them yet,
but I'm very optimistic about their long term future now.
Speaker 1: Which I think you you should be.
Speaker 2: I'm curious to see how they attempt to straddle this
line between I don't think they need to come in
next season or look at all those things say oh,
we need to get a lot better and be that
top four seed in the East. But it does get
interesting because how do you straddle that line between giving
players time and space to develop versus trying to upgrade
your roster when it might take, whether it's creating cast
space and using it or more likely like looking at trades.
I'm just super I don't know how they're gonna deal
with it, but I think the fact that they are
as good as they've been this season while sort of
juggling it effectively. I think probably the two biggest questions
I have for them is do they have that final
running mate for Cade already on the roster? And I
don't know, like we're not gonna see j Navy again
this season? Of course, I think even as he did
a better job of fitting in alongside Kate, I don't
know that you could have looked at his season and said, Okay,
he's the answer. They have Asar Thompson, who I still
am just incredibly high on, and they have Ron Holland
both of those guys have similar limitations on the offensive end, though,
and so it'll be interesting to see how that dynamic
continues to grow. And then you mentioned Jalen Duran. I mean,
I don't I don't know what I There's definitely players
who I flip flop on a lot. Yeah, he is
one of them, and he's probably in like the ninetieth
percent tile of players that I find myself flipping on.
I don't know, like specifically defensively, I don't know if
I view him as someone Okay, you can go ahead
and just build a longer term, really good.
Speaker 1: Defense with him as your back line anchor. I think
that is.
Speaker 2: You know, his rim protection metrics are they're fine this year,
Like he's covering around the sixtieth any any way you
slice it, expected field goal percentage, rimpoints save per one hundred.
He's just kind of in the sixtieth percent tile, which
is like meh, and is like, you know, he can finish,
but he's not like the most efficient finisher necessarily, especially
when there's other steps involved, like if he has to
go through contact as an example.
Speaker 3: But yet they're just wild considering how he's built, by
the way he is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is massive, and so he's also still young though,
So like I have questions about like this season is
is has been awesome for them, and I think that
your default to being incredibly high on their FEUTU.
Speaker 1: They're still flexible.
Speaker 2: They don't have a ton of extra picks, but you
don't necessarily need that. If you're flexible and you have
you have your directional polst to me, and that is
the hardest thing to do when rebuilding. And so you
found him in Kid, but I think you could argue
that every other spot around him is still very much
TBD and that I don't know if it puts them
in a precarious situation, but it's it's definitely an interesting situation.
Speaker 3: I think it does to an extent because obviously when
you have someone like Kid who finally broke through, you're
gonna need that second guy that's like what you're searching for,
like right off the bat, when you realize, oh oh
he's him. So I do have I closed the door
on Jaden probably not. I mean Ferdy game sample sized
this year is not a whole lot. And I also
think he kind of like had basketball PTSD from last
year because God, he was jerked around on that roster
to an extent that was, I mean, unprofessional. Honestly, it
was ridiculous how he was just he would not get
a stable roll, stable minutes, whatsoever. Then he got it
this year, but still sort of had to like, oh,
oh I'm actually I'm actually playing for the Mints per
game like that's that was an acclamation period as well,
and then he goes down. That's just tough. So I
do think it's going to be interesting to see what
type of season he's gonna have next year. The same
with Duran. There are some teams that are more inclined
to use like the rookie contracts period, especially for young pigs,
to basically say, look, all we need is a sign
within those first four years to see where this guy
is headed. And if the Pistons are like, okay, year four,
that's where he takes maybe a step up, they're like yep, yep,
we're comfortable. Let's move ahead and extend him or oh whali,
they can. Then you have to go into a restrict
free agency, but you catch my drift. I think this
is very much a reread and react type of situation
for them. I don't think they're gonna go out this
summer and be super aggressive. I think I think they'll
make changes. I think they'll make moves, and I think
they'll be buyers. But I don't think they're out there
just like, oh yeah, we'll trade and we'll trade. Janel Duran.
I think they're very much patient and I think that
patients is probably the right call at this point in time.
Speaker 2: I could see them doing something similar, and I think
they're at a different point in their phase of development,
rebuilding whatever, something sort of like what the Toronto Raptors did,
but you're not giving up a first round pick because
they just don't have extras. Where it's if someone has
a contract they don't necessarily want, or a player they
don't plan on keeping long term. But it fits with
the Pistons need where it's would you do some type
of structure where it's Tobias Harris plucks small salary.
Speaker 1: Acts and you're taking back CG.
Speaker 2: McCollum or something and you're just sort of rolling over
salary slot. That's just an example, and even if I'm
advocating for it. That feels like what they might do
this off season in addition and then bringing in well,
they might convey their pick to. But that's also what
makes them interesting, by the way, is that if they
send their pick to the Timberwolves, then like everything is
kind of on the players already in place, and then
how you upgrade around them.
Speaker 1: So I agree with you that it's read and react.
I'm just very curious.
Speaker 2: Is the word I've been throwing around a lot during
this segment, Well, how are they going to react to
what they've done?
Speaker 1: Yeah this year?
Speaker 2: And there's I think Jamie Bickerstaff, at least right now,
seems like a really good coach, like for what they've
been able to do for like really long stretches defensively
this year their third in points lab per possession since
January first. I don't think you look at this roster
and say that's something they should have done at any
point this year. So that's kudos to them. And what's
again in place? I think my final question here and
anything else you want to talk about, of course, who
is the player aside from k that you are highest
on long term on the Pistons.
Speaker 3: I'm still an Ivy guy. I buy the upside. I
totally buy into that this season was just hell on
him for an injury perspective, and last year was a
mentally tough season to get through because it was incompetence
from you know, the entire coaching staff and front office.
So I think with him coming back next year, hopefully
fully healthy, knowing that his spot is secure in the rotation,
I could I've seen him unleashing finally the torrent of
offensive efficiency that we know he can provide. I'm a
Nagrey guy still.
Speaker 2: I think I'm still on the Asar train there as
the second most important player for them moving forward.
Speaker 1: And I think if we can.
Speaker 2: Get to a point where we see even more lineups
that are built to have him playmake out of them,
and a lot of it's going to be in transition,
because yeah, I don't think you want to slow things
down and send him ball screens and run a ton
of pick and rolls necessarily.
Speaker 1: I won't rule it out, of course.
Speaker 2: I think it comes down to and it's the same
thing with Holland, like what is their range on offense,
Like does it include being able to get to mid rangers,
get up floaters like just looking away from the basket,
or will either one of them develop into a bankable
three point shoot. I don't know, but I think because
of what Asar can do defensively, it makes me really
excited for what he could be long term. And I'm curious,
if there's that word again, I wonder who they view
as the most like the second most important player in
the building. And I almost wonder if they might think
it's Ron Holland just because this front office drafted him.
Speaker 3: I don't know that I'd be worried if they said that.
At least it.
Speaker 2: Could be Malik Beasley at this point, like how we're
gonna keep this guy in And by the way, that's
the vase.
Speaker 1: So they didn't.
Speaker 2: They're not good enough or set enough to where you
could have said, well, we're not trading players X at
the at the deadline. But the fact that they kept
him was one predictable. I think they should have, but
at least me to believe, like, well, they're gonna try
and keep him even though they have non birs. Sure,
I'm saying they should, but that's another thing that's looming
over this is some of their most important guys when
it comes to creating the space that I think has
helped Kate a ton. Tim Hardaway Junior is a free agent. Uh,
Malik Beasley's going to be a free agent. So I
like they're They're a real delicate place. But I think
that you can look at this organization, at least the
talent there and some of the things they've done this year,
at least under this front office, and say, well, I
trust them to at least make decisions that might result in,
you know, a minimum of the sixtieth to seventieth percentile outcome.
Speaker 3: Well, at least on Tekio will not be a free agent,
So there we go.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's not a team option for him. They're not
just gonna decline that. So what's your vibe check on
the Pistons rebuilt?
Speaker 3: Oh that's high. I'm actually gonna steal your eight point
four from the Hornets and put it on Detroit.
Speaker 1: Do I feel better about it?
Speaker 2: I do feel better about I'm gonna go to eight
point six on Detroit.
Speaker 3: Oh, wow, you're so petty. You just had to top
me there. Okay, yeah you went, what'd you go? Eight
point four?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I'm gonna way.
Speaker 2: Well, I feel a little bit better than I do
about the Hornets, even though I might feel better inaggregate,
like I think the Pistons have a better collection of talent.
But there's a chance that Detroit, when you look at
their excuse me, Charlotte, when you're trying to weigh the
value of their two best players like LaMelo and Brandon Miller,
could end up exceeding the value of Caid plus whoever
is the second best player in Detroit.
Speaker 3: Right right? Yeah, I hear you, I hear you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Our next team is the Toronto Raptors, Brandon Ingram's Toronto Raptors,
Scottie Barneses and Brandon Ingram's Toronto Raptors. This is Grant
and I just did a breakdown of the extension Brendan
Ingram's side.
Speaker 1: This team's direction is fascinating.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes it is. I wrote about them over at
Yahoo too, and I'm like, I'm not smart on this
team at this point, I have no idea what the
direction is. I think the extension was aggressive. It was
very aggressive Raptures fans surprisingly to me, at least, we're like,
oh yeah, the Slabs. I'm like, really like, you're okay
with that? This was a guy who the Pelicans had
a tough time fighting a trade partner for so for
the Raptures to take him and extend him to this
extent is interesting, to say the least. I thought they
could have gone into this offseason and just kind of
like played it out to see first, like, are you
even a good fit for us? Because, as I think
we both agree Ingram can be a little bit too
trigger happy on the pull up twos, and while he's
up to three point rate this year, it's still a
lot of twos. It's still a lot of mid range
area spend time spend in the mid range area, I
should say, And I don't think you get full bang
for the buck playmaking wise, despite the fact that he's
actually got decent breads. But my most problematic thing with
this Dan is he's kind of occupying the spaces where
both RJ. Barrett and Scottie Barnes operate. So I'm like,
you have three wings right now who sort of operate
in virtually the same areas, And what exactly are you
hoping to achieve from this? That's my question. I'm guessing RJ.
Barrett is probably gonna be traded in the summer to
make room for this, But.
Speaker 2: I so I wouldn't shock me if r J Barrett
is the one who gets traded. They have room to
like bring back Chris Bouchet and we'll see where their
draft pick lands and stay under the tacks after resigning
brandon Ingram. So it wouldn't shock me if they go
into the season and see how this works. Is there
a dynamic where it's RJ. RJ probably gets paid at
a clip to the salary cap of if he can
come off the bench and be a sixth man type guy,
now would he want that role? I'm optimistic to play
devil's advocate because I have the same questions you do.
But I'm optimistic to the extent of I didn't see
RJ playing within the flow a lot of New York's
offense when he was there.
Speaker 1: He comes to Toronto, there's more off ball movement.
Speaker 2: They did better jobs of getting him the ball to
give him ahead, or at least more a more consistent
job of getting him the ball in situation where he
could create advantages, because we saw some of that with
RJ in those second those vaunted second units with New
York a couple of years back. And can Brennan Ingram
benefit from the same type of usage to where it
feels like anecdotally, when they were trying to use him
away from the ball, it was just a lot of
stand still stuff and in Toronto it's not going to
be that. And he's actually always been when you dig
into the numbers, he's been an efficient off ball shooter.
He just doesn't take them usually in enough volume. Maybe
this year and like a year like three, or maybe
when he first came to New Orleans whatever year that
was might have been the exceptions. And so I think
maybe that and they look at that and say, we
have a bunch of these like sized guys.
Speaker 1: Emmanuel Quickly.
Speaker 2: He's been up and down since he came and not
healthy of course, but that's someone who could play off
the ball really well. And to me, it feels like
trying to create as many different options as possible so
that Scottie Barnes is able to sort of one shape
shift his role but to make things easier on him.
But I don't think this isn't the surest way to
do that though.
Speaker 1: Definitely what I agree.
Speaker 3: With I hear you on the off ball opportunities. That said,
we've also seen reported. I think about a year ago
that the Pelicans have really tried for Ingram to embrace
that role a little bit more, like try to like
encourage more Pig and pops more, you know, running towards
a certain spot on the outside, like just basically getting
him more involved as an off ball shooter where he's
just kind of been no man, like I want to
be on the ball. So it also comes down to
him like that, that's just the think of it, Like
he has to also embrace Yeah, I'm coming into a
new situation. I have to adapt to the players around
me as well. I'm not coming in to be, you know,
the main guy. I Am not the main attraction here.
If he comes in with that mindset and he's like no, no, no,
I'm gonna take over possessions again and you're still gonna
see that pattern of him not taking a lot of
shots softball, then it's gonna be really ugly really quickly.
I'm gonna be positive about it and say I hope
for the best here. I hope that Ingram like just
the change of scenery is what did it is, that
that's what he opens up for. But I still need
to see it before I'm like fully.
Speaker 1: In I think that's fair.
Speaker 2: I would just be surprised if I think you mentioned
the change of scenery is important. And these are definitely
discussions that happened already, And there's probably even a mutual
agreement where even if brent Ingram might view this as
sort of a stop gap in his career, where it's
you come here, you look more scalable and plug and play,
and it either ups your value in time for us
to pay you in two more years when you have
the player option, or if you want to go somewhere else,
they'll be a market for you.
Speaker 1: So I don't want to say I expect it to work.
Speaker 2: I expect brandon Ingram to look and play differently, willingly
relative to what he was in New Orleans. The thing
that I get stuck on here with Toronto, I don't
even know what the what the upside then becomes for
this group if everything sort of pans out when you
look at all the talent in place, I like, I
don't know, is this the the core that's there plus
your twenty twenty five draft pick, is that enough to
like blossom into a contender?
Speaker 1: I just don't.
Speaker 2: I still view Scottie Barnes as someone who can be like,
this isn't all NBA type player to me at his peak,
I still view him as that. I don't view anybody
else on the rosters anywhere near that brand Ingram is
probably to me still a fringele if he comes in
and he becomes like three indeed plus playmaking and like
the he really holds his up his end of the
bargain on defense, Yes, he can make an All Star
game in Eastern Conference, but I think Scottie Barnes is
very clearly the only all NBA type talent on this team,
and so I don't really know what the upside is there,
and that might be a lack of foresight.
Speaker 1: I'm not, like, maybe I'm not imaginative enough.
Speaker 2: But the other thing that sort of puzzles me too
is like they've chosen to like they're not cheap relative
to a team that you would consider rebuilding. And I
would argue that if they're still in this exercise this
time next year, something's gone wrong, because it seems.
Speaker 1: Like they verrely.
Speaker 2: They clearly view this as sort of a short term
layover in Okay, next year, we're gonna resume trying to
be competitive in the East.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean in to their credit here or
not credit, but like to their defense. The injuries were
extremely devastating to start the year. Like I mean, it
was the one guy, second guy, third guy, and everyone
kind of rotated in between each other with the injuries.
And now it did help some silver linings. Grady Dick
for example, in Yaka Peartle, both of whom with you know,
increased responsibilities, really rose up to the challenge. And we
saw that Grady dig was far more well around it
in year two than he wasn't year one. I certainly
didn't expect him to. Now he's dropped back down to
like fifteen points a game, but there was a time
he was averaging like eighteen something along those lines. Even
Yaka Parle was at like sixteen and eleven or something
along those lines. I mean, we saw them, you know,
feature more and was able to respond to the increased pressure.
That's a good sign. So when everyone's finally back healthy fully,
which most are right now, but like again the second half,
it's beginning to get laid into the season. They're seventeen
and thirty eight, so like the mojo probably isn't there
either I would imagine coming into next year, full training camp,
full off season again crossing everything I got that they're healthy,
that they will have a much much better start than
this year because.
Speaker 2: And you know, because we kind of been talked about,
like they do have just some intriguing surrounding players where
Grady Dick is one, and I would say him in
the aftermath of this trade, I would argue that him
and ochaiak Boji become more important to this team because
of how complimentary they can be on offense. And ak
Bogie of course, like I think he'd be integral to
kind of tying the perimeter defense all together, because it
makes the job of Ingram Scottie Barnes. He may be
a manual quickly a little bit easier. They can throw
out some really cool lineups if they keep Chris Bouchet around.
Jamal Shd has shown some stuff this year when he
is I'm not gonna predict this, but when he is
hitting his catch and shoot threes, it's just he's shooting
thirty eight point five percent on two and a half
attempts per game since January first from beyond the arc.
What he does defensively is undeniable and so like that
could be huge for them. Jacoby Walter, I don't know
if I like yet. Like I've seen some offensive dynamism there.
I've even seen some on defense.
Speaker 1: I just don't know.
Speaker 2: He's another one where I don't have a great feel
for what his fit would be on a good team.
But they have a lot of guys here, And I
don't know if you've thought about this at all. I've
almost kind of wondered everyone's kind of focusing on what
does this mean with Ingram coming? What does it mean
for Barrett or quickly even Grady Dick. I almost wonder,
do you think it needs to change the direction of
how they're going at the center position right now? Like
is yakab Peartle, Because when you're looking at what Yaka
Peartl does best at both ends of the floor, is
he with Ingram now here? And like, do you see this?
I mentioned this to Grant already, so people listen to
that episode. I apologize for repeating myself. Couldn't you see
a scenario this becomes almost an an RJ. Barrett or
Yakub Peartle proposition.
Speaker 3: In terms of like relinquishing one of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just like, because if you're trying to view this
team through its long term fit together, right, I don't know,
Like I'm I'm struggling to see because it hasn't happened.
Speaker 1: Let's make it clear, like I need to see it
to believe it.
Speaker 2: I guess I just don't know if both of those
guys on top of Ingram, on top of Scott.
Speaker 3: Okay, I got you, I got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But but then I don't think it's going to be
a a Pearl or Barrett situation. It's gonna be just
a Barret situation.
Speaker 2: Because so you need a different type of five with
the type of perimeter set up that they're sure, but.
Speaker 3: I don't think they can get one. That's the thing,
because the type of five they need here is someone
who can space the floor, someone like they need rayfle Friends.
That guy is not around, and I'm not sold on
that one. I'm not. I'm just not. I understand you
want more movement from your five. I definitely do. Those
guys are just not widely available, Like can they get
Killo where like if they can sign me the fuck up?
But like is he available? I don't think so.
Speaker 1: No, But it's I'm not so like, yeah, they need
almost that. It would have to be.
Speaker 2: These are sort of different types, but like if it
was Santi al Dama or Miles Turner like Christops, but
they need that type of big rot.
Speaker 1: To me, that's how I look at it.
Speaker 2: Someone who gives you some stretch and is going to
be a stronger rim protector than Yaka Pearl. And I
almost feel like if I was running the team, that
might be something I try and harp on, Which is
not to say I think Yaka Pearl's actually been a
much better fit, especially on offense, than I had expected
when they made that initial trade for him. But I'm wondering,
in the aftermath of this trade, if, when everyone's healthy,
if that fit is going to be exhausted. And I
think I've settled on yes, but I'm open to being
wrong just because we were not going to see it
this year.
Speaker 3: I mean, you might be right, but even if you
are right, what I'm thinking about is can they even
upgrade that position? That's what I'm wondering.
Speaker 1: Why why couldn't they?
Speaker 2: I guess are you saying it's they don't have the
assets or that player type is just too hard to.
Speaker 3: Get yeah, number two.
Speaker 2: Okay, I think that's fair because I basically named every
that would fit that.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's Brook Lopez a free agent.
Speaker 3: This year, all right, and so when he turns into
dust by approximately Christmas next year, well so.
Speaker 2: Then I will counter with this then though, And it's
kind of a similar different different structures of the roster,
but it's kind of a similar thing to with New Orleans.
Some of our biggest criticism not that you need the
floor space or next to z Ion specifically. Then get
someone who's just a caps lock ring protector and gives
you vertical gravity, which is why Jared Allen was such
a popular name there. It almost feels like that would
be the other direction that would make more sense for Toronto.
Speaker 3: Are you trying to ship Mitchell Robinson into Toronto?
Speaker 2: I think that no, they need someone who's healthier and
he just can't catch the ball on off right.
Speaker 3: Okay, But the theory of Mitchell Robinson.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll say the theory of Robert Williams, the third
who might.
Speaker 3: Oh oh, oh, okay, oh I like that actually because
then he can also play Mago a little bit, so
he can mimic Yaka Purdles playmaking in some capacity. Okay,
I hear you. I still like the fact that JACKA.
Peartl is like legit seven to one though, like Robert
Williams six ' nine, six ' ten, Like I hear you,
but he does have to overcome a little bit like
Yaka Purtl is just an enormous human being and sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean they're already this year they're what
are they bottom five in defensive rebounding. So that's not
especially because Robert Williams another health risk. I was more
so as in, is there a bigger guy then that
sort of fits that khalel Ware, Yes, but that's not
he's he aren't trading him, right, I.
Speaker 3: Mean they might look the MAVs traded Luka Doncic. Everything
is open. I'm just I'm not gonna sit here and
say that the Heat are not gonna trade Gilaware. Maybe
maybe they can't, which maybe maybe I was being just
a little bit.
Speaker 1: If I'm five first round pick for Walker Kessler for this.
Speaker 3: Team, Oh, I think that's a little spicy, adds some
protection on it rolling over to next year. Maybe that's
a good name though, like that.
Speaker 1: He's conventionally huge, yeah.
Speaker 3: He oh, big time. Big time will fit the timeline
a lot more. Yeah, I don't hate that whatsoever. The
question is like for that pick, like right now.
Speaker 1: You have to pay him soon too, which is all
have to pay.
Speaker 3: Him, and now you have to give up like the
number five pick currently projected at least.
Speaker 2: What about about Jay Huff. He's not a free agent,
but he's on under contract.
Speaker 1: He's cheap. I don't know what Memphis we want for him.
Speaker 3: No, I have no idea either. He'd be fun because
he even space is the floor.
Speaker 1: Yeah he does. I mean we've never seen it in
like real volume though, right.
Speaker 3: We well, no, no, that's true, but we like to
think so because we like Jay Huff.
Speaker 2: Nick Clapton will be another interesting name. But to get
to the money, you would have to trade Pertle for him,
So there's probably a risk there.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, Peartle deserves to play somewhere. It's not
in Toronto, so I could see why he would not
necessarily be fully satisfied with a Bentrol.
Speaker 1: I honestly forget about trades.
Speaker 2: If they used like an exception this year to sign
clean Capella, I don't know what his market is. And
so then you have the just to have that he's older,
he's not what he was, but like, yeah, I have
that dynamic on the roster to see what it might
look like if you invested more in it like that,
and then you still have peerdle presumably if you're signing, Yeah.
Speaker 3: If you still have purdle, I'll do it. Because I
just saw my my facial expression.
Speaker 2: Just get I wouldn't even view I mean, maybe I
would view Nick Claxton as like the finishing piece here,
but like a lot of the names we've thrown out,
like Robert will if you went with Robert Williams, Mitchell
Robinson or Mark even Mark Williams could offensively would be
interesting for this team, but those are all stabs in
the dark because their health like those are not.
Speaker 1: Oh, we've got our big man in the future.
Speaker 3: So basically we're still calling Miami about killll.
Speaker 2: Werris what you're saying and what is Miami telling you
to go fuck off?
Speaker 3: It that we just we just tell them, we tell
them we'll finally acquire dame for you.
Speaker 2: But I guess my point was, and it's fine if
you disagree, Like you don't think that there needs to
be any sort of change up now I'm not even
saying get rid of Perle, but a different type of
five on.
Speaker 3: This I wouldn't mind place on the RJ.
Speaker 1: Barrett type of at all.
Speaker 3: No, I hear you, I wouldn't mind. But again, it
has to be under the right for the right price,
in the right circumstances. Like is Chris Bruschet like you
brought him up yourself. He's sort of that guy a
little bit, but he's he's not huge, He's not and.
Speaker 2: He is still shooting like nine from three over the
past couple of months.
Speaker 3: Though, yeah, perhaps they got enough.
Speaker 2: No, well, well I do think this is I said
this in our trade deadline right wait, I'm.
Speaker 3: Sorry to interrupt you, but they can fix this problem,
by the way, during the draft, well they could malo.
Speaker 2: Right about I know enough about like the top two
prospects and that's all I got. They could fix all
the flag Maybe just play without a center? Would that
work for just.
Speaker 3: Cooper Flag's teammate? Come on, Malouk seven two two fifty
is anchoring Duke's defense this year? Like he is that
type of guy you're actually talking about.
Speaker 2: Do you think John he's again not How tall is
Jonathan Mobo like he's had some nice moments for them.
Speaker 1: I don't view him I.
Speaker 3: Want to say six ' ten or something. Let me
just check.
Speaker 2: I do think to people joke about my love for
Chris Bouchet, but I really do think that once they
went into brandon Ingram trade talks, it became critical for
them to keep him over Kelly Olinik. And not just
because Kelly Olinick's money for next year was probably a
net negative, Like they kind of need in theory at
least what Chris Bouchet can give you given this roster.
Speaker 3: Now, I don't think that's wrong.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all.
Speaker 2: I just wanted you to say something semi nice about
Chris Bouchet, then we can move on. Do you have
anything else that you want to talk about before I
ask you about the vibe check?
Speaker 3: One small thing shouldn't take a whole lot. I think
people are getting a little too like critical of Emmanuel quickly,
Like he's just he's only played sixteen games this year,
He's been banged up a ton. I don't think he's
back to being fully healthy yet, and people were like
overpaid one of the worst contracts in the league, and
I'm just not there yet, Like maybe down the line
if he is like, can't prove himself to be healthy,
or if like an injury patent emergence like that, I
just I can't get there. I still really like that
dude at the PG.
Speaker 1: I would uh so, I would agree with you. I
don't view him. I was kind of open to it.
Speaker 2: I just the live dribble playmaking has never been what
I think it needs to be for him to be
a point guard. But I think now that you have
Ingram and Barnes and Barrett, he is so perfect, like
alongside to all three of them, two of them, one
of them.
Speaker 1: Whatever. I wouldn't be out on him. WHAT'SO like whatsoever? Either.
Speaker 2: I do worry because his defense has been weird in Toronto.
I've chalked it up to a lack of familiarity, not
being on the court a ton since the trade. But
the hip stuff is because the way he played defense
and what he did that was most valuable in New York.
If there's any sort of long term damage to like
kind of the hip mobility's ability to fight through screens
or disrupt away from the ball, i'd watch that, but
I'm with you, I can't.
Speaker 1: I didn't even see that talk. I feel like he's
I didn't.
Speaker 2: I have not seen any strong Emanuel Quickly takes because
he's been so injured. But if that's the any not
even the prevailing consensus, but if that's even a sentiment
that's out there, I would say it's at least a
year too early.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think so too. So I just I
want to give Emanual quick to at least a little
bit of support.
Speaker 2: This might be one of my most just teams to
watch over the next like two or three years. I
just don't like I'm so excited to see what it becomes.
Vibe check scale of one.
Speaker 3: Point oh because I'm so fucking confused, five point oh.
Middle of the pack. I have no idea.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because I think they are in a vacuum.
The most talented team we've talked about thus far. Yeah,
that's fair, but the direction and the fit is still
kind of hazy. I'm gonna go, you know what I'm
gonna do. I'm gonna go six ' nine six point nine.
We're onto the Washington Wizards. And I'd like to remind
everyone before we get started here that we're talking about
rebuilding teams.
Speaker 1: We're trying to cover the entire league.
Speaker 2: So hit that sub button if you've not already, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
the NBA podcast as well. These exercises are fun, but
if you want to hear more about teams that most
people aren't talking about at the moment, subscribe to Mort
and Hardware Knocks mort and the NBA podcast as well
as hard with Knox so that we can continue to
pump out content like this. And with that said, the
Washington Wizards Mort But do we just want to give
them a vibe check of an eleven and move forward?
Speaker 3: Pretty much?
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, this is a team that I think
they're doing everything they need to be doing. They're acquiring
additional draft picks, they have a lot of young guys
that are flanking them with veterans who, for the most part,
should be good teachers. Do I think they've gone a
little overboard with the amount of veterans they have currently
on the roster, Yes, I do, But look that's not
going to be a long term issue. Malcolm Broxton's going
to come off the books this year, so it's not
necessarily something that's a major problem. I just think they're
playing it smart. I think they're playing it the right
way with patience, keep justin. Champagne's kind of my point,
keep him around, make sure that's keep him around. He's
too good to just be a two way guy. Like,
let's let's make sure we lock his ass up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I one, I agree with the Champagne people think
we're kidding, Like the Champennies have turned into excellent glue
guys and not even not even gluoy stick guys like Grant.
And that's like a cut below where it's like the
glue sticks that don't really have a strong of an adhesive.
So with the Wizards, it's fascinating because I think that
they're still so early in the process, but it feels
like much longer because of they kind of went through
their Chicago Bulls era of just like the path to nowhere,
and so it's almost like Portland with Day though you
mentioned his name before, where it feels like they're rebuild
to rebuild, excuse me, is older because of kind of
like the two or three years that they spent with
him where they didn't level up. Now, I guess the
problem with them is similar to the problem that we
talked about with like as the overarching problem as we
talked about at the top of this with Brooklyn, except
they have players who might identify as, oh, this is
our guiding light moving forward. I think it comes down to,
unless you want to add anyone there, it's Alex Sar
or Bala Kulabali.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's like those will be the only
two candidates.
Speaker 3: I'm yeah, Bob Carrington is doing something that I'm finding interesting,
but I'm not there where I'm like putting him on
that same level yet. But I'm also not closing that
door entirely.
Speaker 1: That's fair. I really like him.
Speaker 2: I think the poise he has on the ball and
his positional size, I think the shooting is going to
be fine. The lack of room pressures are concerned, But
if you can get to your mid range spots, if
you can hit threes and you could be a good passer,
I think he's gonna be really good. A cool BALI
I still don't necessarily know what's going to be the
best offensive wheelhouse for him. He can really finish through contact. Still,
they've experimented with some self creation. There's probably room for
him to do more of that, but he's just not
efficient in those situations. Big believer in what he can
do defensively. I think if we fast forward three to
four years, I would be mildly surprised if he's not
kind of mentioned in some just even if it's peripheral
all defense conversations. And I've come to.
Speaker 1: Really like Alex Sar.
Speaker 2: I wasn't big on him coming out of the draft, like,
has shown that he has three point touch, has shown
that what he can do defensively, has shown that they're
passing there.
Speaker 1: I think he's now their highest upside play.
Speaker 2: They don't have any definitives, of course, but I think
they're early on enough that it's okay. And even just
like getting someone I like Keishaan George still too, Yeah,
well go ahead, what were you gonna say?
Speaker 3: No, I was just gonna say I do too. But
it's it's and it's pretty clear that I like the
fact that he's accepted his role. George mean, just like
he knows I'm a three point gunner, and that's kind
of it. That was the same in college. I do
wonder if there's more to him, like is there is
the defense gonna you know, be attached to that down
the line like he's right now, I'm considering him primarily
a one trick pony, whereas I think the rest of
the guys that you just kind of outlined at least
has you know, a little bit more elements to play
off of.
Speaker 2: He you know, I said glue guy before, but he
kind of feels like he will be a jack of
fewer all trades and sort of a master of none.
Speaker 1: I think there's more.
Speaker 2: There's definitely more ball skills to him on offense, his
size on defense right now, size and effort I think
go a long way. But he's gonna probably have to
get smarter and more disruptive and be able to handle
some even tougher assignments.
Speaker 1: But like that's like when you when you.
Speaker 2: Got him, you weren't looking at Okay, we need someone
like that's who you.
Speaker 3: Can no, no, yeah, yeah yeah cool. Believe by the way,
is the guy before you, like because you were like
Kulibili and Sarr you had those two like yeah right, yeah.
I think it's equability.
Speaker 2: I do you think he has the like the I've
been anyone who's listener this knows that I'm a big,
like cool Bali guy. But do you think that he
has the offensive chops? To be the player around whom
you are structuring everything.
Speaker 1: No. I so.
Speaker 3: This is this to me reminds me a little bit
of a Scutty Barnes situation where he's not gonna be
like your primary offensive score. He's not gonna be the
guy who's gonna go out and get you necessarily twenty
five for thirty points every single game. Like that said,
the night is young. The guy is just twenty years old.
He's in his second he's in his second NBA season,
and I actually think offensively speaking, he's doing pretty damn well.
I know the efficiency is not there, but his feel
for the offensive game it's there. He's able to get
to the free pro line. He does have a touch.
It's just a question of reps. It's a question of
him just having to understand how to be more efficient.
I'm just you know, I have a hard time with
people basically saying, oh, year two, he should mean so
much better. He's twenty twenty year soul like, relax.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's also just I don't I tend
to throw out efficiency for like at least the first
two years of the career and kind of look at
more of the function and there are moments when I
see it from him, and I don't know if it's
an issue of well, should they be trying him out
in this situation higher volume? So maybe it's not seen
enough of it yet, even now that we're more than
a year and a half into his career. I just
to be the guy to me, you need to either
like have this sort of trademark offensive skill that you
can spearhead it. And maybe Alex Sardisant profiles that either,
which is why it's sort of like between the two,
but he feels more anomalous offensively for his player, for
his position.
Speaker 3: It's funny, right because both of them, both of them
have this thing where their defense is so far ahead
of their offense. So we judge them currently on primarily
on what they do well because that's human nature. And
so we're looking at the defense and we're kind of going, oh, right,
do we need something else here? Like how are we
projecting the other side of the court to project or
to progress? So it's interesting. I think for me, we
just have to, like you said, give it a couple
of years to see how they develop offensively. I do
think another element to all this that we're kind of
forgetting is that they don't have a lot of reliable
offensive players around them to sort of lean on. Like
Jordan Poole, with all due respect to is twenty one
points per game, still not always the most efficient scorer
in the NBA. So you're looking at guys who are
not capable of carrying an entire offense on their shoulders
for long stretches. That forces Gula believe the forces are
forces some time. George so also and Bob Carrington into
situations where they're sort of forced to being a little
bit low volume. I would love for them to go
out in the draft. They have their pick right now.
Speaker 2: I'm not all that they technically don't, but it's protected
to hell them back.
Speaker 3: So yes, they right, Yes, so they do. Yeah, and
they're so bad it's not going to convey all right,
So they have their own pick if they if they
unless of course they win the lottery and it's Cooper flag.
If they get a chance of a guy where it
makes sense drafts slot wise, who's just a bucket, getther
go that route, because that's what you need on this team.
You need someone who can just fill up the damn
cup because that's going to elevate the play of Kulab,
of Sar, of Carrington, of George. That's going to give
them something to lean on. It's going to help turn
those guys into more efficient versions of themselves. So I
think this is a roster issue more than anything.
Speaker 2: And do you think that was probably the general idea
they were thinking when it was okay you have Jordan Poole,
so recently you had Kyle Kuzma and you have Malcolm Brodden.
It seems like they were trying to sit up that
type of environment for their and by the way, to
an extent, I think it's worked like a like with
Alex r specifically the strides he's made on offense. I
think it's helped him for sure, But I don't know
that they've necessarily succeeded because you even said like they
might have too many veterans on the roster, and I
think that's certainly true for when you're looking at it
as was it supposed to lead to X and it
clearly has not. But it also hasn't. It doesn't seem
like it's harsh the vibes the word we're using. It
definitely has not hurt the tank, and I think I'm
also you know, when we're talking about the draft and
don't look the lottery, they're gonna They're gonna have the
best lottery odds in the league. So like they'll be
a bottom four team. And right now I think they
are the worst team as we're recording this. I don't
even think is anyone gonna catch the Wizards. No, the
Jazz are three losses of the Pelicans, excuse me, are
three losses better than them. So the Wizards will have
the worst record, which is just a kin to having
top four lottery odds. I'm curious just like what happens
over the off season outside of the draft for them,
because you have smart you Brockeden's a free agent, you
still have Jorge Pool the lights like you could see
the light at the end of the tunnel for his contract.
And I'm also one of the things I look at too,
is like, what is Middleton going to do with.
Speaker 1: His player option?
Speaker 3: Pick it up?
Speaker 2: So if he picked it up, I think that's something
they could probably trade for like actual.
Speaker 1: Value if he's high.
Speaker 3: They wouldn't.
Speaker 1: You can't. You just said they have too many veterans.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not the guy I was referring to that's
a good ass veteran like Marcus Smartest available anymore, Marcus
Smartest cooked.
Speaker 2: I think you can, oh, if you're looking, if you're
basically an availability. You can can say similar things about
Chris Middleton at this stage too.
Speaker 3: You can say that, sure, but at least when Chris
Middleton's playing, he's still efficient, He's still a playmaker. His
game is still wrapped in high IQ place like every
single time he's on the floor, I would, ten times
out of ten, even in the current state of Chris Middleton,
take him over Marcus smart Oh.
Speaker 2: I don't that's I would have taken him over Kyle
Kusma to be cool, say it's interesting with him, because
are they gonna say? I want to know how willing
is he to play for them? And be where is
this going to be? Have to be sort of a
task agreement of all right, he's opted in, and you're
gonna come play your ass off for a half a season,
rebuild your value, help the guys around us, and then
we'll move you you a contender. That might be the
best course for both parties.
Speaker 3: Yep, And frankly, I think Chris from everything I've heard
from like about him, and like just when he's the
way he speaks, he seems to be, you know, the
best type of adult in the room that you can
you can ask for.
Speaker 2: Well, then they give him and Marcus smart time, basically
like mental health weeks to cope with the fact of
being traded to the Wizards. Isn't that what actually happened
or something like that, So maybe he's wrapped his head
around it and what's gonna happen moving forward.
Speaker 3: By the way, speaking of Sar, I want to get
into this because I don't want to forget it. I'm
a little pissed at Washington's guards throughout this course of
the year, even Malcolm Brockton, who I usually might opinion
of him is super super high, they have not been
good enough to give Sar the ball in advantageous positions.
Like Sar is actually pretty good at identifying when to
like dug in or when to cut to the basket,
especially on fast breaks, and there is a lot of
like guard reluctance to giving up the ball when he's
clearly a lob threat or when he's like in the
dunker spot. He's being ignored in a way that I
think is unreasonable, Like I'm not saying it's intentional. I
don't I'm not sitting here and saying, oh, Alex Saarr
would be like you know, AB and C. He's still
super inefficient, and also because he loves to take shots
like from the outside, perhaps too many, but there are
at least two or three times every single game that
I watched him where you're like, what are you guys doing?
Like if it's Bob Carrington, if it's Jordan Poole, is Brogden, whoever?
Who just failed to see that seven to one guy
standing below the rim or even jumping up over the
rim ready to catch a lob and they're just like, no, no,
I'm gonna go in for a contested layup Jesus. Like
that to me is kind of concerning that. We're like
I noticed it pretty early in the season, and like,
how many games have they played, like fifty four, We're
fifty four games into the season and we're still seeing this,
Like that's that's annoying, Like Brian Keith, get it together, man,
like tell your guards off.
Speaker 2: Sure do you think that any of them have the
talent to do like that? Like none of that of
any player on this roster. I would argue, no one
is like an above average lob pass thrower or creator.
Speaker 3: We're talking about short love like Dan, you could make
those passes.
Speaker 1: Whoa whow, I don't pass. I get buckets. I miss bucket.
Speaker 3: All right, well, Grant can make those passes. It's it's
these are not you know, court vision like Rashaun Rond
or Jason kitt type of passes that I'm seeking here.
I'm seeking like fairly simplistic dump offs or like Malcolm
Brockton being literally eight feet from the basket and just
not realizing Alex Sar is right there. It's just going
into the second half of the season, that is like
a major, major driver that I'm looking for, Like, I
hope the entire coaching staff is like on this and
actually kind of going into this the second half, say
telling their guards just look for the big feller at
least just recognize his pat presence because he's losing out
on I think a solid like two to four points
every single game just by being looked off. And I'm
at that point now where it just feels weird.
Speaker 2: I think the last thing at least I want to
talk about with regard to this team is what do
you make of the vision, the front office execution, or
what they've been doing since we've seen you know, the
Michael Winger era, Will Dawkins are like since their takeover.
Speaker 3: I mean, again, they've done it the right way.
Speaker 1: I think, Oh that already sawry. I didn't hear that.
Speaker 3: Ye, no, no, no, I mean I've just basically said
I started by saying that I think they've done the
right thing by accumulating draft picks and also pairing, you know,
veterans with the young guys. So so I I think
it's pretty solid. I mean it's not.
Speaker 1: Go ahead.
Speaker 3: No, I was just about to say it's not necessarily
their fault, that this might be the worst offensive roster
that we've seen over the past five years. Like there
there are a lot of kids on this team, and
there are a lot of veterans who are injured, like
it's and then you throw Jordan Poole into the mix
like done.
Speaker 1: This year for the most part.
Speaker 3: Though, for the most part, that's fine.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think the biggest compiment you could give them
is they haven't done. I don't know if anything they've
done has been like an incredible hit. I like a
lot of the young guys. But we kind of need
to let that marinate over the next few years. They
haven't done anything that's reversibly wrong. I think their biggest misstep,
which speaks to how I think coherent their vision, is
they held onto Kyle Kuzma too long.
Speaker 1: First trade value that just like all.
Speaker 2: Right, but they didn't try to hold on to him
even longer to correct that value. They ended up trading
for him for someone who, in Chris Middleton, might get
them some assets on the way out, but might be
a better guy to have around. I mean, you're talking
about getting a bucket getter. This is Chris Middleton, who's
a better passer than Kyle Kuzma, a better shot maker
than Kyle Kuzma. And someone's gonna play more within the
flow of an offense than even peak Kyle Kuzma. If again,
he's going to be with the Wizards for more than
a brief spell.
Speaker 1: So I think this this front office gets it.
Speaker 2: Like of the teams we've talked about in the East,
I think I guess Toronto's front office with Messiah is
taking risks, but you you understand, maybe you don't understand
the endgame.
Speaker 1: But like they're all defensible.
Speaker 2: Of the teams we talked about, Chicago's front office is
really the only one that might not understand where it's
headed or what it's even trying to do. Yeah, vibe
check on the Wizards rebuild. M eight ooh, this is
the first team I think that you're higher on than
I am. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go seven point five,
seven and a half there.
Speaker 3: Well, not too far up, that's fair.
Speaker 2: No, I think it's people could criticize that they haven't
maybe hit any home runs yet, but I think that
they have a bunch of guys who at minimum are
gonna be really good NBA players even if they haven't
found there. And it's okay to say maybe they don't
have their best player of the future on the roster,
you know why, they're not winning enough to be in
a situation where they won't still have a chance of
drafting that player this year being the perfect example of that.
Speaker 3: One final question to wrap up, like the Wizards, something
I just thought of right now, if like, what is
the draft pick that the Spurs would have to win,
either through their own or if the Atlanta pick goes
into the lottery for this the Wizards to accept like
a sp pick for trade, Like how high does that
pick need to be? Oh?
Speaker 1: Man, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think if the Spurs get if they had in
this draft, if they had seven or higher, and you
offer it to the Wizard, you have to think about
that right as the Wizards.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I might actually be a little bit more like
five and higher. Like I I think really highly of globally,
So I'm like, I think it's really hard to like pinpoint.
That's why I'm asking you because I don't.
Speaker 2: Have like objectively bizarre if the Spurs like made the
dr and Vox trade but then also made and then
like they made that Rob Dillingham trade last year, but
then they turn around and they're trading for like they'd
be trading a pick for a prospect whose two years in,
but that the Spurs' order of operations at that point
would write I melted.
Speaker 1: I would not like.
Speaker 3: The reason I'm thinking about it is because that's the
team where we're going to talk about them in the
next pot. But like you and I have also talked
about before that they need probably a wing moving forward. Well,
what is Bilbli right there?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: He would kind of fit into the things pretty easily.
Speaker 2: I would be concerned though, now you have like shooting
deficits at a lot of positions as of now, where
it's well, okay, well what is Stefan Castle?
Speaker 1: What is Jeff? What is Blai? There's some deficits there.
Speaker 3: But you still have Julian Champagne.
Speaker 1: And that's the all. Can you get? What it?
Speaker 2: What's the pick you'd be wing to give up? Or
as the Wizards, how high a pick do you need
to get justin Champagne out of Washington number two overall
or high.
Speaker 3: Flag and nothing short of flag.
Speaker 2: Moret you have anything else that you want to discuss
or do you just want to tell our fine listeners
and subscribers where they can find you and all the
fantastic work that you're also telling your subscribers this so
that's even just.
Speaker 3: Indeed, yes, So you can find my work over at
the NBA Podcast, where you feature quite a bunch like
we're doing these crossover episodes. You can also find my
work over at Yahoo Sports at Forbes taking a little
bit of a break from the SI right now, if
you speak Danish, you'll be able to catch me over
at a Busser Beater and while we're at it. While
we're at it, if you're interested in getting like dinner
boxes from HelloFresh, you can actually use the code that
I use on my Danish podcast that works globally. You
just have to go to HelloFresh dot com slash busser
Beater and type in the promo code busser beater in
one word, and that will give you a major percentage
of your first purchase.
Speaker 2: Can you get them to change it to slash OnlyFans
as your promo code?
Speaker 3: I will try.
Speaker 1: Now does it work? It works globally?
Speaker 2: Does it work intergalactically just for wembs like.
Speaker 3: I should hope so, because Wempy's family out there in
the Great Beyond will actually deserve to get like just
delivered a food box because I'm sure they're busy.
Speaker 2: And now are you ready to close? What is the
Danish word that I'm gonna be wording? I know soloplex
and nyla sucks not Oh that.
Speaker 3: Was really good. The first one is sola.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that means sunglasses right exactly. And sucks is
scissors or clippers.
Speaker 3: Nail clippers specifically nail clippers. That's like this, clippers and yes,
so I plant this a little bit ahead because you're
always wearing a cap. So let's get that one out
of the way. Kisk it kiss git, cask it. Kisk
it sounds like casket?
Speaker 1: Am I saying?
Speaker 3: It? Almost sounds like casket? Kiss it? And that's it's
the e sound at the end. You have to put
emphasis on caskit casket.
Speaker 1: This is cascat.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh, there we go. That was good. Loved it.
Speaker 1: So I know three words or I guess two because
I pronounced the solo pla what is it?
Speaker 3: Soaplela?
Speaker 1: Okay, where's that? To see how many of these I remember?
Speaker 2: I feel like the one you thought was really hard,
I'm gonna remember Nihilis sucks for the to the end
of time, and that.
Speaker 3: Was actually the one I was most worried about. You're
absolutely right, so you're doing a good shout.
Speaker 1: Mort This was great.
Speaker 2: Until next time we leave everybody with a shout out
to the one the only another player this bers should probably.
Speaker 1: Figure out a way to acquire They're gonna get the
lad pull the ball, will eat a pair with Wembe
Mister Frank Tila Kea