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<v Speaker 1>This podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

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<v Speaker 2>A bizarre case is murder, sexual abuse and alleged law

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<v Speaker 2>enforcement misconduct is unfolding here, and it's questioned the innocence

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<v Speaker 2>of children, a police officer, and a legal system. Few

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<v Speaker 2>people question the Kerr children's claims of sexual abuse, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's the stories of devil worshiping and Satanic sacrifice that

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<v Speaker 2>have some wondering if the children may have been led

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<v Speaker 2>or prompted into saying those things by adults. You don't

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<v Speaker 2>believe there's in satanic rituals.

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<v Speaker 3>Nobody nobody found any kind of evidence to show that

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<v Speaker 3>they would.

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<v Speaker 4>If they have, they're not making it public.

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<v Speaker 2>For the past few years, Sergeant James Brown has been

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<v Speaker 2>the only investigator on the Wilson Kate. It was a

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<v Speaker 2>job he volunteered for. Now he's a suspect in her disappearance.

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<v Speaker 1>So our last episode was all about Raymond Smith, the

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<v Speaker 1>little boy who falsely accused his mom and stepdad of

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<v Speaker 1>being in a satanic cult of murdering Kelly Wilson, the

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<v Speaker 1>teenager who vanished on January fifth, nineteen ninety two, from

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<v Speaker 1>the town square in Gilmour two years after Kelly disappeared,

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<v Speaker 1>just to quickly recap, Special Prosecutor Scott Leefford and his

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<v Speaker 1>pair of investigators, Steve Baggs and Brooks Flagg convinced a

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<v Speaker 1>grand jury to indict eight people for the kidnapping, rape,

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<v Speaker 1>and murder of Kelly. The suspects included Gilmert police sergeant

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<v Speaker 1>James York Brown, and Raymond's parents Don and Tammy. They

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<v Speaker 1>were facing death penalty offenses. But there were big problems

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<v Speaker 1>with Leefford's case. Here's Kelly's mom, Kathy on the local news.

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<v Speaker 5>I feel like you'll have to prove it in order

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<v Speaker 5>for us the family to believe, to believe that he's

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<v Speaker 5>going to have to prove it. Beyond shadow of dot,

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<v Speaker 5>this is all happened, and it's the people are involved

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<v Speaker 5>with Kelly's disappearance, and artist got to maintain objectivity and

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<v Speaker 5>they're going to have to have lord and circumstance argents

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<v Speaker 5>and they haven't shown missed anything.

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<v Speaker 1>Special Prosecutor Scott Lyfford's case against Sergeant Brown and its

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<v Speaker 1>co defendants. Most of the members of the Kerr family

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<v Speaker 1>hinged on the witness statements of Raymond and Connie Martin

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<v Speaker 1>the common law wife of one of the Kerr brothers,

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<v Speaker 1>with a little help from Connie's sister in law Wanda,

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<v Speaker 1>if Scott Lyfford had the goods, though he was keeping

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<v Speaker 1>the details to himself.

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<v Speaker 6>I really am not comfortable talking about the evidence at

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<v Speaker 6>this point, and Connie Martin's not being charged because she's

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<v Speaker 6>cooperating with it.

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<v Speaker 1>Another star witness for the Lifer team had already recanted

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<v Speaker 1>Wanda's brother, Lucas.

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<v Speaker 2>A new set back to Lyford's case is Lucas Gear,

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<v Speaker 2>a Kerr family uncle. Gear is currently serving time in

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<v Speaker 2>prison on child molestation charges. In the Search War, Gear

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<v Speaker 2>is listed as a coroborating witness to the children's accounts

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<v Speaker 2>of Satanic rituals and human sacris. He passed a polygraph test,

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<v Speaker 2>but Nawgere says he lied.

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<v Speaker 6>Thank him, kept nay.

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<v Speaker 7>They wanted something.

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<v Speaker 8>They wounded me to go along with them.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, they'd lead me home, so I had to lead

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<v Speaker 2>them on to enter.

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<v Speaker 1>Shane Phelps, Assistant Attorney General for the State of Texas.

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<v Speaker 9>Now the Texas Attorney General's Office has stepped in. Assistant

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<v Speaker 9>Attorney's General Shane Phelps and Lisa Turner are conducting the

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<v Speaker 9>investigation and working with the grand jury.

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<v Speaker 1>Reviewing the case files, Shane Phelps and his assistant prosecutor,

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<v Speaker 1>Lisa Tanner knew what they had to do. Shane had

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<v Speaker 1>to drop the charges and clear Sergeant Brown's name. By

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<v Speaker 1>this time, Sergeant Brown had already been released after spending

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<v Speaker 1>six days in the county jail. To cover his bond,

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<v Speaker 1>Sergeant Brown's dad put up the family farm as surety,

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<v Speaker 1>but the city council had already voted to suspend Sergeant

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<v Speaker 1>Brown from the police department. No pay, no job. Sergeant

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<v Speaker 1>Brown was so broke he put his own mobile home

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<v Speaker 1>and pickup truck on the market. As for the curs

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<v Speaker 1>and Raymond's parents, his mom Tammy and stepdad Dawn, they

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<v Speaker 1>had it even worse. They were still behind bars.

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<v Speaker 10>I'll never forget being in jail and going into the

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<v Speaker 10>courtroom to be arrain.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Tammy turned myself in.

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<v Speaker 10>I mean, I'll just never forget how shocked I was, like,

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<v Speaker 10>what in the hell is going on? You know, I

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<v Speaker 10>mean it was just crazy. And that was the first

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<v Speaker 10>time you see us coming out in the orange suits.

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<v Speaker 11>That was what was on my.

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<v Speaker 10>Mind as I'd be like, I cannot believe that that

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<v Speaker 10>just happened. You just feel like you're in a movie,

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<v Speaker 10>you know what I mean. It's just feel like it's real.

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<v Speaker 10>You just can't believe. And all I kept thinking is

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<v Speaker 10>these are smart, intelligent people, you know, because like I said,

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<v Speaker 10>I had all trust in our government, I had all

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<v Speaker 10>trust in our system, police officers, and do the right thing,

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<v Speaker 10>do what they say. They're gonna figure this all out.

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<v Speaker 10>They're smart, educated people. Come on, it just kept getting

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<v Speaker 10>stupider worse. I mean, they had like when they would

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<v Speaker 10>interrogate me, they would have pictures of skulls on the table,

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<v Speaker 10>you know, trying to convince me that I had had

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<v Speaker 10>these babies and sacrificed them to the devil.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was just like, what in the.

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<v Speaker 6>Heck is going on here?

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<v Speaker 10>My lawyer's sitting there going now, Tammy, They're gonna give

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<v Speaker 10>you a deal and give you your kids back in

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<v Speaker 10>six months if you just tell them what happened. And

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<v Speaker 10>I said, Mike, I don't even know what all the

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<v Speaker 10>other girls are saying.

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<v Speaker 6>If I did want to take the deal.

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<v Speaker 10>And he sat there and told me he's up there

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<v Speaker 10>and told me what the other girls were and I'm like,

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<v Speaker 10>I am praying and asking God out of this crap.

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<v Speaker 10>I ain't lying on the one person, and so don't

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<v Speaker 10>ask me again to do that. And because my ownlawyer

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<v Speaker 10>tried to get me to lie and say stuff, this

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<v Speaker 10>is bull crap. When your own lawyer is telling you

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<v Speaker 10>to confess, confess on dawn and lie on dawn. And

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<v Speaker 10>since I'm so much younger, you know, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 10>get off and then we'll fly around and do a

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<v Speaker 10>book deal.

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<v Speaker 6>And this is my lawyer.

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<v Speaker 10>Telling me this crap. I'm like, jeez, I can't trust

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<v Speaker 10>anybody literally.

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<v Speaker 12>Any of this that they alleged actually happened.

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<v Speaker 10>Absolutely none. Absolutely. I have not ever met Kelly Wilson,

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<v Speaker 10>not once. I've never molested my children.

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<v Speaker 1>When she was first locked up, Tammy didn't believe her

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<v Speaker 1>son Raymond would ever accuse her of such horrible crimes.

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<v Speaker 10>After he got in foster care. My lawyer at the time,

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<v Speaker 10>the good one. I can't even think away, he said Tammy. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 10>he said, Raymon is a smart kid and he will

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<v Speaker 10>be their star witness. And I went, no, Raman is

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<v Speaker 10>a kurch young boy.

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<v Speaker 13>He will not.

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<v Speaker 10>Lie, Timmy, Yes he will.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 10>That was my lawyer telling me.

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<v Speaker 13>He was, you know, he's being awestome with Timmy.

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<v Speaker 10>They're gonna convert him or whatever because he's smart, and

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<v Speaker 10>they're gonna make him their star witness. And I be

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<v Speaker 10>darned if he wasn't right. I remember one time being

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<v Speaker 10>in jail and one of the guys has books Brooks flag.

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<v Speaker 10>They let him come in. Myself, my one man self, myself,

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<v Speaker 10>and he touches my hand and he goes, how does

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<v Speaker 10>it feel to know you're never gonna know the touch

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<v Speaker 10>of a man? And I just thought, And then he

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<v Speaker 10>looks up at my wall, and you know, in jail,

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<v Speaker 10>you take toothpaste and you stick your pictures on the wall.

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<v Speaker 10>And he goes, I see you're getting used to your

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<v Speaker 10>new home. You're going to have a good married Christmas

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<v Speaker 10>hunchin and he walks out. I mean, I just couldn't

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<v Speaker 10>believe that people were really like that. That's how innocent

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<v Speaker 10>and naive I was. One time I was brought into

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<v Speaker 10>this room and I don't never forget all these big men,

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<v Speaker 10>big men, and there was probably like seven or eight

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<v Speaker 10>of them, and they set me down. They're all looking

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<v Speaker 10>at me like me, mugging me. And they turned on

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<v Speaker 10>this TV and they go, we want you to watch this,

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<v Speaker 10>and I sit down and there's my little Raymond. His

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<v Speaker 10>head's all shaved completely. He's sitting in a chair and

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<v Speaker 10>Anne Gore is on her knees in front of him,

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<v Speaker 10>asking him questions did your mama? And he's putting his

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<v Speaker 10>hands in his mouth and he's mumbling, and she says,

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<v Speaker 10>did your mama do that? And you can tell she's

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<v Speaker 10>like suggests of questioning him over and over and over,

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<v Speaker 10>and them guys are just looking at me like you

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<v Speaker 10>are sick. You ought to be it, you know. I'm

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<v Speaker 10>just sitting there crying and thinking, what is this? What

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<v Speaker 10>what are they doing to my baby? You know, that's

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<v Speaker 10>when I realized my kids are not safe where they're at.

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<v Speaker 10>You know, this isn't what I thought.

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<v Speaker 9>It was anymore.

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<v Speaker 10>For some reason, I always had faith in God that

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<v Speaker 10>it was just gonna get better.

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<v Speaker 14>I always had that faith that it was going to

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<v Speaker 14>get better. I just couldn't believe though that all the lies,

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<v Speaker 14>you know, how these people had.

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<v Speaker 6>So much control.

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<v Speaker 10>And they lie are so bad, and then everybody else

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<v Speaker 10>just lets them. I mean judges. I remember being at

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<v Speaker 10>court and Barbara Best and they're talking about how they

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<v Speaker 10>kept getting these threats and everything. And I'm thinking, we're

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<v Speaker 10>in jail, how can we threaten you? Oh you know

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<v Speaker 10>they were Cannis. We can't call you unless you accept

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<v Speaker 10>the phone called. I mean, there would be records of

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<v Speaker 10>all this stuff.

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<v Speaker 14>And they're saying all these lies in court, and I'm thinking, why.

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<v Speaker 10>Isn't anybody doing anything? Why is this judge sitting here

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<v Speaker 10>allowing these lies when he freaking knows better. I mean,

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<v Speaker 10>I just couldn't. I couldn't grasp it, and I still

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<v Speaker 10>can't grasp it.

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<v Speaker 1>The lurid details and sensational indictments swept East Texas. It

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<v Speaker 1>was all anybody could talk about.

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<v Speaker 5>This case still has many people in Gilma riveted to

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<v Speaker 5>the goings on at the courthouse and wondering if there

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<v Speaker 5>will ever be a resolution to the mystery.

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<v Speaker 10>Every day on the news, we were on the news

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<v Speaker 10>every day for two years.

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<v Speaker 11>On the news.

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<v Speaker 6>Top story.

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<v Speaker 10>It was either Kanya Harding or.

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<v Speaker 5>For us.

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<v Speaker 1>Tanya Harding had nothing on this From Imperative Entertainment, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>wes Ferguson. This is Deviltown. This is chapter six courtroom drama.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's Raymonds stepdad Don Holman.

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<v Speaker 6>I went to a church for about three and a

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<v Speaker 6>half years that you couldn't go the amboree.

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<v Speaker 1>The Yamboree is the fall festival in Gilmer. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot like any county fair, parade, Queen's Court, livestock show

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<v Speaker 1>if you throw in a lot of yams. Don is

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<v Speaker 1>a self described Bible thumper. His church back then was

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<v Speaker 1>so strict he couldn't even have fun at the Yamboree.

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<v Speaker 6>You can't watch showbiz pizza, you can't go on a

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<v Speaker 6>trip without asking to get permission from the preacher. And

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<v Speaker 6>I'm not that I was a sergeant in the army.

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<v Speaker 6>I mean I told people what to do in a

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<v Speaker 6>nice way, but they come and ask me, hey home

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<v Speaker 6>and listen my wife. I think my wife's running around

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<v Speaker 6>on me. Would you help me out? You know yeah,

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<v Speaker 6>send her a dozen roses and apologize, you cheat, bastard.

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<v Speaker 6>You know I've been around. I've been a cop before

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<v Speaker 6>in Big Sandy, back when Texas largest man hunt. I

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<v Speaker 6>was a good guy and then all of a sudden

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<v Speaker 6>I'm in jail, going killing, killing eight a seventeen year

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<v Speaker 6>old girl and sacrificed ten babies to the devil. And

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<v Speaker 6>I mean just hateful things to me and put me

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<v Speaker 6>in a dorm with a bunch of idiots. I'm not

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<v Speaker 6>saying idiots. They was all right after I threatened to

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<v Speaker 6>kill them, you know, but one had I kept up

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<v Speaker 6>with him and he got seventy five years from murder,

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<v Speaker 6>nineteen year old black guy. Another one he had tattoos,

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<v Speaker 6>had his head shaved on each sign. Me and him

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<v Speaker 6>used to get a water iglue and work out with it.

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<v Speaker 10>We got along.

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<v Speaker 6>I got along with everybody. Oh and one boy was

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<v Speaker 6>in there in that hole and cell guy. I said,

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<v Speaker 6>what's that all about? Who's that guy? And he goes, oh,

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<v Speaker 6>that's one of them old charm listening curves. And when

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<v Speaker 6>he said that, I walked over to him. I said,

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<v Speaker 6>I said, come here. I said, you see a name

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<v Speaker 6>right there. I said, my name is Don Holman, not Curve.

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<v Speaker 6>Don't call me a curve. He goes, okay. I wasn't

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<v Speaker 6>gonna hurt the guy. But from then on, when he

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<v Speaker 6>woke my my jail, cell, he put his head down.

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<v Speaker 6>You don't, I mean, you don't call me no charm listener.

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<v Speaker 6>When he said you lost a bunch of weight, was

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<v Speaker 6>that fasting? I fasted not to show off. I fasted

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<v Speaker 6>to God. And when they asked me, I'll go get

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<v Speaker 6>you a cheeseburger or whatever want you want to eat,

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<v Speaker 6>I said, ma'am, listen please. I said, I'm not doing

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<v Speaker 6>this to be stubborn headed. I appreciate anything you do.

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<v Speaker 6>And I said, I can't. This is something I got

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<v Speaker 6>to deal with. And I asked one of them, I said,

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<v Speaker 6>you know what I'm in here and she said not really.

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<v Speaker 6>I said, they're saying I'm a rapist and a murderer

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<v Speaker 6>and a child lester. And they said want and I

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<v Speaker 6>said yeah. And I said, and I've got to get

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<v Speaker 6>in touch with God. Humbled. I mean, if David said

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<v Speaker 6>I humbled, my soul was fasting, so fasten and he

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<v Speaker 6>doesn't turn away.

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<v Speaker 1>The Humble Down had a long history with the Kirklan

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<v Speaker 1>local family, who's incest and child abuse got tangled up

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<v Speaker 1>with the search for Kelly Wilson. Don says he was

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<v Speaker 1>not particularly close to Wendell, the Kerr brother who was

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<v Speaker 1>first convicted of abusing his own kids, which is how

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<v Speaker 1>the case against the entire family got started, but Don

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<v Speaker 1>says he and Wendell talked in lock up after they

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<v Speaker 1>were both arrested So when.

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<v Speaker 12>Wendell was telling you about some stuff about his own dad,

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<v Speaker 12>was that when.

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<v Speaker 15>Y'all were in jail.

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<v Speaker 1>What did he say?

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<v Speaker 6>Well, I hate to say this, I really do because

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<v Speaker 6>it relates to Wendell, and I don't like to tell

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<v Speaker 6>on him for what he was already done. Roman He said,

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<v Speaker 6>his daddy used to soldomize him. I said, well, Wendell,

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<v Speaker 6>does he do it anymore? He said, well, what I

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<v Speaker 6>would do, I'd go out work, and he said, I

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<v Speaker 6>just take the money home and give it to him.

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<v Speaker 6>He said, after why, he said, I said no more,

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<v Speaker 6>You're not doing this no more? He said. I got mad,

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<v Speaker 6>and he didn't do it no more. I said, when

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<v Speaker 6>let me tell you something, you're not to hold that

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<v Speaker 6>against you. It's whether you go do somebody else like that.

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<v Speaker 6>I said, you couldn't help that.

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<v Speaker 1>Did Wendall say how old he was when he.

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<v Speaker 8>Was getting abused?

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<v Speaker 6>Young? Young, probably liking grad school.

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<v Speaker 1>Wendell, the abused became the abuser. He was also a

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<v Speaker 1>truck driver, the one who had shipping receipts which proved

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<v Speaker 1>he'd been hauling freight on the East Coast when Kelly disappeared.

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<v Speaker 1>The receipts even had Wendell's own signature on them. Although

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<v Speaker 1>members of Scott Lyffort's team were convinced that Wendell was

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<v Speaker 1>a master Satanist who'd forged the receipts, it should have

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<v Speaker 1>been obvious to anyone else that Wendell had done no

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<v Speaker 1>such thing, whatever his other crime. Wendell, who died in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty eighteen, was innocent in the murder of Kelly Wilson.

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<v Speaker 8>No grand jury's indict based on probable cause. But there

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<v Speaker 8>wasn't probable cause, and they acknowledged that. Liferd acknowledged that.

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<v Speaker 1>To me that Shane Phelps again.

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<v Speaker 8>Credible witness statements could be enough, but this was outlandish stuff.

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<v Speaker 8>I don't think there's a prosecutor in the state of

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<v Speaker 8>Texas who has any sense of what prosecution is about.

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<v Speaker 8>Whoever would have been dieted that case if for nothing

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<v Speaker 8>else for the fear of I would get my ass

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<v Speaker 8>handed to me in court. Because it didn't take long

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<v Speaker 8>for their case just to.

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<v Speaker 1>Fall apart, Shane says the Lifeer team had lost sight

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<v Speaker 1>of what should have been their first priority.

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<v Speaker 8>Prosecutors are sworn to do justice, not to seek convictions,

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<v Speaker 8>and to my mind, and this is a case that

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<v Speaker 8>I've often pointed to as illustrative of this idea. To

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<v Speaker 8>my mind, it is every bit is important, if not

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<v Speaker 8>more so, for a prosecutor to protect the innocence than

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<v Speaker 8>convict the guilty. And I truly believe that it is

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<v Speaker 8>more important to make sure that the criminal justicism doesn't

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<v Speaker 8>victimize in this person than it is ultimately to convict

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<v Speaker 8>a guilty person. It's that old adage about you know,

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<v Speaker 8>ten guilty people go free rather than one innocent person

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<v Speaker 8>going to prison or the death end. There's no oversight

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<v Speaker 8>to prosecutors in Texas. They have the power to basically

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00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:39.279
<v Speaker 8>affect the lives of citizens in pretty detrimental ways. Put

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<v Speaker 8>people in prison, put people on death row, you know,

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<v Speaker 8>and if you're not motivated properly ethically, you will damage people.

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<v Speaker 8>You will end up doing more harm than good. When

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<v Speaker 8>I told them that their rationalization was nobody was talking

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<v Speaker 8>to us, they were again in their mind, we know

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<v Speaker 8>this happened, So when somebody won't talk to us about it,

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<v Speaker 8>they must either be lying part of it, or afraid

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<v Speaker 8>of Scott or Little Life or team afraid of law

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<v Speaker 8>enforcement in Upshire County. Don't know who's involved and this

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<v Speaker 8>is how they put it. We had to show them

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<v Speaker 8>who had the power. In fact, there's an exchange with

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<v Speaker 8>Kannie or Wanda in one of their interviews subsequent to

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<v Speaker 8>the indictments where they say the response from Connie or

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<v Speaker 8>Wander was, we didn't know you had that kind of power.

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<v Speaker 8>So in their minds, it would let whoever they're talking to,

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<v Speaker 8>who had information that they wanted, know, we're more powerful

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<v Speaker 8>than what you're afraid of, so you can talk to us.

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<v Speaker 8>That's why they indicted it.

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<v Speaker 12>So they were using indictment as a tool for their investigation.

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<v Speaker 8>Yes, I think that's right. You know there was a

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00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:03.920
<v Speaker 8>great deal of ignorance involved in that approach.

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<v Speaker 1>On March fourteenth, Shane was back in Gilmer his first

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<v Speaker 1>pre trial hearing as the lead prosecutor after taking over

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<v Speaker 1>for Scott Leiford. Nearly everyone in the courtroom was expecting

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<v Speaker 1>routine stuff.

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<v Speaker 8>We went to Gilmer for the first setting. Basically what

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00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:28.400
<v Speaker 8>was an arrangement on all of the defendants. So they

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<v Speaker 8>were all in the court. I'll never forget this one,

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<v Speaker 8>all in the courtroom, all their lawyers are in the courtroom,

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<v Speaker 8>and the judge called the case and I said, well,

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<v Speaker 8>judge the timber We're going to dismiss everything, which took

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<v Speaker 8>a lot of people by surprise.

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<v Speaker 1>They did not expect that kidnapping, rape, murder. Just like that,

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<v Speaker 1>all the charges involving Kelly Wilson, they were gone.

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<v Speaker 16>Sort of, it is back to square one in the

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<v Speaker 16>Kelly Wilson case. Could happen in everyone. Charges against eight

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<v Speaker 16>people in the Kelly Wilson case have been dropped. The

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<v Speaker 16>Attorney General's office moved were dismissal of the chargers deal

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<v Speaker 16>with a lack of evidence. Judge James Zimmerman granted the

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<v Speaker 16>motion this morning, and now eight people, including Sergeant James Brown,

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<v Speaker 16>Don Holman, Danny Kerr, Eugene Kerr, Geneva Kerr, Wendel Kerr,

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<v Speaker 16>Tammy Smith, and Wanda Kerr, are no longer suspects in

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<v Speaker 16>the Kelly Wilson case. The state says the Wilson case

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<v Speaker 16>remains open.

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<v Speaker 11>This preliminary hearing originally was scheduled to go over motions

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<v Speaker 11>by attorneys and to also look at the pre trial order.

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<v Speaker 11>But after this development, many people are now just scratching

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<v Speaker 11>their heads in disbelief.

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<v Speaker 8>I think the judge was actually quoted at some point

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<v Speaker 8>saying I just had no idea that was coming. I

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<v Speaker 8>didn't give anybody any warning, and there was no reason to.

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<v Speaker 1>Raymond's mom, Tammy was just as clueless.

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<v Speaker 10>I didn't know it was going to happen. I was

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<v Speaker 10>sitting in jail and it was lunchtime, and I was

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<v Speaker 10>sitting right in.

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<v Speaker 13>Front of the TV fixing to eat lunch in jail,

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<v Speaker 13>and all of a sudden, this kicker came on on

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<v Speaker 13>the bottom of the screen and it said all charges

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<v Speaker 13>in the Gilmer Killy Wilson case.

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<v Speaker 10>Had been and I remember just thinking, holy shit, we're

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<v Speaker 10>gonna get out of here.

377
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<v Speaker 1>That was on a Monday, when Shane dismissed the charges.

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<v Speaker 1>By Friday, Don and Tammy were out of jail unreduced bond.

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<v Speaker 1>As for the parents of Kelly Wilson, they were split

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<v Speaker 1>when the case imploded. On one side Kelly's mom and Stepdadlene.

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<v Speaker 5>What about reaction tonight from Kelly's parents.

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<v Speaker 11>We talked with the Carlsons this afternoon and they said

383
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<v Speaker 11>that they were basically stunned.

384
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:38.799
<v Speaker 1>On the other side was Kelly's dad.

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<v Speaker 9>Robbie worked with James pretty close for the last two years. Firstly,

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<v Speaker 9>my gut thinking the names. He has no involvement in it.

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<v Speaker 9>And secondly, we were presented with no evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>Towards James Brown was a free man, believe it or not.

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<v Speaker 1>Though James wasn't thrilled, but what has happened to me

390
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:04.960
<v Speaker 1>to date is a travesty.

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<v Speaker 9>I have always maintained my innocence and still do.

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<v Speaker 15>We would haveferred.

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<v Speaker 7>To have been able to have a speak trial in

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<v Speaker 7>this guy. We would haveferred to be able to take

395
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<v Speaker 7>Connie Martin's deposition so we can see whether or not.

396
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<v Speaker 17>You know she's telling me the truth.

397
00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:30.960
<v Speaker 1>James Brown and his attorney David Moore actually wanted to

398
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.640
<v Speaker 1>take the case to trial. Sergeant Brown's reputation had already

399
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.480
<v Speaker 1>been so tarnished in gilmer He wanted a chance to

400
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.680
<v Speaker 1>prove without a shadow of a doubt that he was innocent,

401
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.240
<v Speaker 1>not just in the court of law, in the court

402
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:44.440
<v Speaker 1>of public opinion too.

403
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<v Speaker 16>I would ask if he would move back to Gilmour.

404
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:48.240
<v Speaker 16>Brown seemed unsure.

405
00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:54.880
<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of herd, there's.

406
00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:55.559
<v Speaker 17>Been a lot of stress.

407
00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:58.920
<v Speaker 16>Well, Brown is out of jail. The knife it seven

408
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:01.440
<v Speaker 16>others charged in the will and case remained behind bars.

409
00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:03.839
<v Speaker 16>Several members of the Kerr family and others are still

410
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:07.000
<v Speaker 16>being held charged with several accounts of child molestation. But

411
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<v Speaker 16>despite that, Danny Kerry today from his jail cell in

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<v Speaker 16>Upsu County, said he was happy to hear charges in

413
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:13.039
<v Speaker 16>the Wilson case were dropped.

414
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<v Speaker 3>Well, I'm more relieved than anything else. It's just like

415
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:22.519
<v Speaker 3>I said, all these murder charges were bound. I didn't

416
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:24.640
<v Speaker 3>want to get back to my normal life like it's

417
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:25.200
<v Speaker 3>supposed to be.

418
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.799
<v Speaker 1>The molestation trial against Raymond's stepdad, Dawn, was actually scheduled

419
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:33.599
<v Speaker 1>to begin in just a week's time, but the Attorney

420
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:36.680
<v Speaker 1>General's office decided to postpone Dawn's and all the other

421
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:41.039
<v Speaker 1>molestation cases. Assistant Attorney General Shane Phelps had to regroup.

422
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:43.920
<v Speaker 1>He just made a bunch of enemies in Gilmer.

423
00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:50.880
<v Speaker 8>There really was quite a bit of a fure about

424
00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:54.640
<v Speaker 8>the dismissals because by this time the life Or team

425
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:58.480
<v Speaker 8>had really gathered kind of a following. It's almost like

426
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:03.400
<v Speaker 8>a cult of people who just believed this happened so

427
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:06.599
<v Speaker 8>again in their in their minds. If I step in

428
00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:12.279
<v Speaker 8>and dismiss them all, then I'm corrupt. Not this guy's

429
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:13.880
<v Speaker 8>been doing this for a long time. He knows what

430
00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:16.839
<v Speaker 8>he's doing and so on. It was I'm corrupt, I

431
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:22.240
<v Speaker 8>must be protecting powerful people in Upshire County from this

432
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:26.839
<v Speaker 8>information getting out. But I also, you know, made it

433
00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:31.440
<v Speaker 8>clear that we were going to devote the full resources

434
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:35.359
<v Speaker 8>of my division in the Attorney Dental's office to investigating

435
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:37.000
<v Speaker 8>this whole thing, and we would be back before the

436
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:38.240
<v Speaker 8>grand jury.

437
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:41.519
<v Speaker 1>Shane was going to reinvestigate the kidnapping and death of

438
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Kelly Wilson, and then he'd take the case back in

439
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:47.839
<v Speaker 1>front of the grand jury, the same grand jury that

440
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:51.720
<v Speaker 1>indicted Sergeant Brown, the curs and Don and Tammy in

441
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:55.160
<v Speaker 1>the first place. But he couldn't hold the grand jury forever.

442
00:25:55.880 --> 00:26:03.920
<v Speaker 1>He had three months.

443
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.480
<v Speaker 8>I guess. I dismissed the charges in the March, and

444
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:10.200
<v Speaker 8>I was back in.

445
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:12.160
<v Speaker 1>June Shane Phelps again.

446
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:18.759
<v Speaker 8>So maybe three months that's all we did. And we

447
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:23.880
<v Speaker 8>devoted thousands of man hours to that case. We worked

448
00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:26.079
<v Speaker 8>with the FBI, we worked with the Sheriff's department, the

449
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:29.759
<v Speaker 8>police department. A big part of that focus was on

450
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:33.160
<v Speaker 8>changed around really involved, and we got things like his

451
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.359
<v Speaker 8>lawyer provided to us his personal diary that that was

452
00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:39.920
<v Speaker 8>clearly his personal diary that recorded you know, a lot

453
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:45.000
<v Speaker 8>of his investigation into into Kelly's disappearance. You know, we

454
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.599
<v Speaker 8>talked to FBI agents who who were involved at that

455
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:50.759
<v Speaker 8>early stages, and we're saying this guy was doing everything

456
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:54.559
<v Speaker 8>he could to find this girl. Of police officers he

457
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.160
<v Speaker 8>worked with, We're talking about the fact that he was

458
00:26:56.200 --> 00:27:00.680
<v Speaker 8>working around the clock when all this is supposed to happen, Right,

459
00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:03.039
<v Speaker 8>He's working with people trying to find this girl while

460
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:07.920
<v Speaker 8>he's allegedly part of this cult that is were theoretically

461
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.759
<v Speaker 8>she was still alive, and so he would work to

462
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:15.000
<v Speaker 8>find her and then go get involved in It was

463
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:19.400
<v Speaker 8>just absurd. I have no doubt we were able to

464
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:23.960
<v Speaker 8>alibi him. He just had nothing to do with this.

465
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:29.559
<v Speaker 8>Only we had his his journal, We had his He

466
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:31.640
<v Speaker 8>was alibied by I think at the time, his girlfriend.

467
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.240
<v Speaker 8>The FBI. Actually, he just didn't have anything to do

468
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:42.440
<v Speaker 8>with that. That's and that made me angry because you know,

469
00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:44.480
<v Speaker 8>we're talking about a death penalty case, but we're also

470
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:48.680
<v Speaker 8>talking about them destroying the career of a guy. And

471
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:51.039
<v Speaker 8>in law enforcement. I mean, I don't know that James Brown.

472
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:53.400
<v Speaker 8>I mean he was a chargeant in the Gilbert Police Department.

473
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:56.440
<v Speaker 8>I did not know who he was. I just knew

474
00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:58.279
<v Speaker 8>he was a police officer who had been in charge

475
00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:02.000
<v Speaker 8>of these crimes. And it became absolutely clear to me

476
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:04.960
<v Speaker 8>over the next ninety days getting the thing ready to

477
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:06.559
<v Speaker 8>go back to the grand jury, that he didn't have

478
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.119
<v Speaker 8>anything to do with it at all, that he was

479
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:12.039
<v Speaker 8>a victim, and as were all these other people, because

480
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:14.680
<v Speaker 8>there was no evidence to support like window Kerr. I mean,

481
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.759
<v Speaker 8>I got those original bills of lading and hotel receipts

482
00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:21.240
<v Speaker 8>and gas receipts and sent those to the Department of

483
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:26.240
<v Speaker 8>Public Safety crime Lab, which Scott Leiford could have done,

484
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:32.400
<v Speaker 8>and they confirmed one percent these are original signatures by

485
00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:37.640
<v Speaker 8>window Kerr. And I knew when I saw the bills

486
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:39.880
<v Speaker 8>of lading and his exemplar that it was the same guy.

487
00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:42.480
<v Speaker 8>It was clear to me, But we sent it to

488
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.799
<v Speaker 8>the Department of Public Safety anyway for their forensic handwriting

489
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:47.759
<v Speaker 8>group to take a look at it, and they confirmed

490
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.559
<v Speaker 8>this was Wendell Kerr. He was out of the state

491
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:52.319
<v Speaker 8>the entire time.

492
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:55.720
<v Speaker 1>In June of nineteen ninety four, Shane Phelps took his

493
00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:59.160
<v Speaker 1>findings back to the Grand Jury in Gilmer. By this time,

494
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:02.799
<v Speaker 1>Shane was so convinced of the suspect's innocence. He did

495
00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:05.960
<v Speaker 1>something kind of unusual. He didn't even give the grand

496
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:09.119
<v Speaker 1>jury a chance to reindict Sergeant Brown and the others.

497
00:29:09.400 --> 00:29:11.440
<v Speaker 8>The fact is, I wasn't going to present an indictment

498
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.839
<v Speaker 8>against people I knew to be innocent of these charges.

499
00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:18.720
<v Speaker 8>So I made a decision. I did some things that

500
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:28.680
<v Speaker 8>were somewhat irregular in this whole thing. When the grand

501
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:37.440
<v Speaker 8>jury basically agreed with me, I had prepared a statement

502
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:40.160
<v Speaker 8>that I showed a grand jury, and they said yes.

503
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:43.160
<v Speaker 8>So I had a press conference as soon as we

504
00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:47.759
<v Speaker 8>were done. We were in the courthouse, had been going

505
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:51.000
<v Speaker 8>in and out of the grand jury. I remember the

506
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:54.319
<v Speaker 8>press was just it was crazy. There was press everywhere.

507
00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:56.119
<v Speaker 8>They were following me to the bathroom.

508
00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:57.559
<v Speaker 1>It was wild.

509
00:29:58.079 --> 00:29:59.960
<v Speaker 8>To the coke machine. I mean, I couldn't say anything.

510
00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:02.400
<v Speaker 8>You know, I'm not going to make a comment about

511
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:04.799
<v Speaker 8>an ongoing investigation. I'm not going to tell you what

512
00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:07.400
<v Speaker 8>happened in the grand jury because it's secret. The reason

513
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.160
<v Speaker 8>it's secret. So it was it was a bit of

514
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.000
<v Speaker 8>pandemonium attached on this and a lot of a lot

515
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:19.000
<v Speaker 8>of tension, a lot of high tension just across the board.

516
00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:23.359
<v Speaker 8>It was. It was a bit of a circus. But

517
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:26.519
<v Speaker 8>I understood that people were interested in this case for

518
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:27.559
<v Speaker 8>obvious reasons.

519
00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:31.759
<v Speaker 7>I think he did did what he said he was

520
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:34.359
<v Speaker 7>going to do, and that was look at it, look

521
00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:37.400
<v Speaker 7>at it objectively, and when he did, he dismissed the case.

522
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.640
<v Speaker 1>That's Sergeant Brown's attorney, David Moore again fact.

523
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:43.720
<v Speaker 7>Not only did they just dismiss it, he made a

524
00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:48.119
<v Speaker 7>statement to the media that it won a matter of

525
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:51.519
<v Speaker 7>not having enough evidence, but he said James Yort Brown

526
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:57.240
<v Speaker 7>is in fact an innocent man, which was a stout

527
00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:01.119
<v Speaker 7>comment for a prosecutor to make, andppreciating him doing that.

528
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:05.319
<v Speaker 8>Oh, I remember it quite well. I think I said

529
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:08.720
<v Speaker 8>James Brown had nothing to do with this, he is innocent,

530
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:15.519
<v Speaker 8>because I guess that's kind of a personal thing. I

531
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.599
<v Speaker 8>think James Brown deserved having somebody in a position of

532
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:21.319
<v Speaker 8>authority tell the rest of the world he didn't have

533
00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:28.400
<v Speaker 8>anything to do with it. I know the insidious power

534
00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:33.640
<v Speaker 8>of an accusation. That is, even if it's disproved, people

535
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:37.200
<v Speaker 8>will still there are some people out there stood believe it.

536
00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:42.279
<v Speaker 8>And I kind of slammed the life or team. People

537
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:49.799
<v Speaker 8>needed to hear that this was such a disruptive event

538
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:54.200
<v Speaker 8>in the lives of so many people. But James Brown

539
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:59.160
<v Speaker 8>had been accused of brutally raping, torturing, and abducting and

540
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:03.400
<v Speaker 8>murdering a seventeen year old girl. If I had just

541
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:05.240
<v Speaker 8>gotten in a plane and flown back to Austin, how

542
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:07.640
<v Speaker 8>would he have ever lived that down? Well, that he

543
00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:09.279
<v Speaker 8>needed somebody to say.

544
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:12.599
<v Speaker 12>That, I mean, one of there's so many tragedies in

545
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:15.880
<v Speaker 12>this story, but one of the big ones is that

546
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:21.319
<v Speaker 12>so many people in Gilmer still think that James Brown

547
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:22.720
<v Speaker 12>had something to do with this.

548
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:25.960
<v Speaker 8>That's what I say. That's the insidious power of an accusation,

549
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:33.440
<v Speaker 8>particularly a wrongful accusation, And those people, you know, felt

550
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:36.359
<v Speaker 8>great of the same nonsense that I think Scott Leiffer did,

551
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:40.319
<v Speaker 8>because I think this Scott Leifert wasn't experienced, He didn't

552
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:45.440
<v Speaker 8>know how to conduct a criminal investigation, and he was

553
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:49.279
<v Speaker 8>swayed by this nonsense he was hearing from bags and flag.

554
00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:54.039
<v Speaker 12>Even the victim's mom cappy at first, he said this

555
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:56.880
<v Speaker 12>is this can't be true, but at some points she

556
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:57.599
<v Speaker 12>was persuaded.

557
00:32:57.640 --> 00:33:02.319
<v Speaker 8>Otherwise, his dad never did. I mean, he was relieved

558
00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:07.640
<v Speaker 8>when when James was exonerated and these and these indictments

559
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:12.799
<v Speaker 8>were dismissed. It was you know, you asked the question,

560
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:17.359
<v Speaker 8>you know, why did I do that? Because, as I say,

561
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:21.759
<v Speaker 8>it was a fairly irregular thing from my perspective, from

562
00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:29.720
<v Speaker 8>my moral framework, from my ethical foundation of being a prosecutor,

563
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:33.279
<v Speaker 8>I didn't think I had any of the choice. You

564
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:35.400
<v Speaker 8>can't just point to figure at somebody and say horrible

565
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:37.559
<v Speaker 8>things about them and then when you know you're wrong,

566
00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:45.480
<v Speaker 8>not corrected, and that's that's what we did. I to

567
00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:49.519
<v Speaker 8>this day have absolutely no regrets about doing that. I

568
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:50.920
<v Speaker 8>think it was the right thing to do.

569
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:56.039
<v Speaker 1>Shane's decision angered a lot of people in Gilmer. Remember

570
00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:58.920
<v Speaker 1>Melvin Dodd, the Gilmer school teacher and co founder of

571
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.440
<v Speaker 1>the Justice for Kelly Wilson Committee. When Melvin read Shane's

572
00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:06.319
<v Speaker 1>statement in the newspaper, he immediately called his friend Harvey,

573
00:34:06.519 --> 00:34:07.920
<v Speaker 1>who'd sat on the grand jury.

574
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:10.960
<v Speaker 17>And then the charge has been dropped. They were dropped

575
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:17.079
<v Speaker 17>by the Texas Attorney General's Office, and there was a

576
00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:20.880
<v Speaker 17>statement in there they said that they were acting on

577
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:25.719
<v Speaker 17>behalf of the grand jury. I'm trying to think of

578
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:29.159
<v Speaker 17>the name of the man from the Attorney General's Office who,

579
00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:30.760
<v Speaker 17>in my opinion's totals.

580
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:32.119
<v Speaker 1>Come back Shane Phelps.

581
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:37.440
<v Speaker 17>Shane, Yeah, Shane Phelps. So I read Harvey Rason this

582
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:43.400
<v Speaker 17>statement where Shane Phelps said that the grand jury requested

583
00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:49.039
<v Speaker 17>that they dropped the charges. This is the way Harvey

584
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:50.400
<v Speaker 17>Rason spoke to.

585
00:34:50.360 --> 00:35:05.559
<v Speaker 4>Me, Melvin. The grand jury took no action, So every

586
00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:08.400
<v Speaker 4>raceing was saying that that was a lie. The grand

587
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:13.800
<v Speaker 4>jury absolutely did not ask Shane Phepps and Lisa Tanner

588
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:16.559
<v Speaker 4>and the Attorney General's office to drop the charges.

589
00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:21.440
<v Speaker 1>But our rations dead now, so he he was not

590
00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:24.199
<v Speaker 1>convinced then to drop the charges. He would have.

591
00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:27.960
<v Speaker 17>Oh, he was upset that the charges were dropped.

592
00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:30.119
<v Speaker 4>Now.

593
00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:35.000
<v Speaker 17>We had on the south side of the court House

594
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:42.079
<v Speaker 17>in Gilmer a rally called Justice for Kelly Wilson. And

595
00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:45.320
<v Speaker 17>I think I didn't go around county, but I think

596
00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:48.760
<v Speaker 17>we probably had over five hundred people there.

597
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:53.519
<v Speaker 8>You know, a little bit of knowledge about the criminal

598
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:56.480
<v Speaker 8>justice system can be dangerous. So everybody assumed that because

599
00:35:56.480 --> 00:36:02.320
<v Speaker 8>the grand jury didn't no. Billet said, that means that

600
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:04.239
<v Speaker 8>there must have been something going on that I fooled

601
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:06.000
<v Speaker 8>the grand jury in which is nonsense.

602
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:08.880
<v Speaker 1>The Justice for Kelly Wilson committee would go on to

603
00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:12.199
<v Speaker 1>hold a bunch of rallies. They even protested outside the

604
00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:16.119
<v Speaker 1>Attorney General's office in Austin, but their protests went nowhere.

605
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:19.400
<v Speaker 1>To this day, many Gilmer residents believe Shane was part

606
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:23.760
<v Speaker 1>of a conspiracy to protect evildoers, and Gore, the CPS

607
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:27.159
<v Speaker 1>caseworker who uncovered the abuse in the curR home, is

608
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:28.000
<v Speaker 1>among them.

609
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:30.880
<v Speaker 12>And I talked to Anne Gore.

610
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:37.840
<v Speaker 15>She wouldn't talk for the recorders, but she still professes

611
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:43.079
<v Speaker 15>to believe that, you know, she thinks she was in

612
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:45.159
<v Speaker 15>the right. You know, she thinks that she was like

613
00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:47.920
<v Speaker 15>following this holy crusade or something.

614
00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:51.239
<v Speaker 8>You know. I suppose, you know, I can't speak for

615
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:56.039
<v Speaker 8>Anne Gore. I suppose when you get so invested in

616
00:36:56.119 --> 00:37:04.039
<v Speaker 8>something being true that cause was so much damage that

617
00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:09.000
<v Speaker 8>I guess from a psychological perspective, you just can't admit

618
00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:15.719
<v Speaker 8>you were wrong. I feel sorry for her, you know,

619
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:21.280
<v Speaker 8>laboring under a you know, an apprehension that is just

620
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:24.639
<v Speaker 8>not true. We know it not to be true, and

621
00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:27.760
<v Speaker 8>yet in her mind, for the rest of her life,

622
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:30.159
<v Speaker 8>she's going to think it was. And some horrible things happened.

623
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:34.000
<v Speaker 8>And in terms of you know, killers getting away with it,

624
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:39.320
<v Speaker 8>people in power protecting other people in power, I mean,

625
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:44.440
<v Speaker 8>it is a fantasy world that she lives in that

626
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:47.159
<v Speaker 8>I guess she just can't disabuse herself, which is which

627
00:37:47.159 --> 00:37:47.840
<v Speaker 8>is tragedy.

628
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:51.079
<v Speaker 7>And then the injustice of.

629
00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:57.599
<v Speaker 12>You know, there was actual abuse that was kind of

630
00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:01.119
<v Speaker 12>paper over, you know, because it morphed.

631
00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:04.119
<v Speaker 8>Into this story as he did. And a Gore and

632
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:08.039
<v Speaker 8>Debbie Minshew and Brooks slag and Scott or Steve Baggs

633
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:11.519
<v Speaker 8>and Scott Lafford are responsible for the people who abuse

634
00:38:11.559 --> 00:38:17.880
<v Speaker 8>those kids never being held responsible. It's their fault because

635
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:22.840
<v Speaker 8>they contaminated those children to the extent that those children

636
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:27.000
<v Speaker 8>could never be credible in the court of law. I mean,

637
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:30.440
<v Speaker 8>you can imagine the cross examination when we start talking about,

638
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:34.760
<v Speaker 8>well you also saw those penis shaped elevators, didn't you. Yeah,

639
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:37.679
<v Speaker 8>and nobody would believe. I mean, these children were horribly

640
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:41.840
<v Speaker 8>manipulated and they were destroyed in terms of their credibility

641
00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:45.800
<v Speaker 8>and frankly, how much damage did it do to these kids?

642
00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:48.280
<v Speaker 8>It did a ton of damage.

643
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:51.840
<v Speaker 1>To evaluate Raymond and the Kirk kids, the state of

644
00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:56.039
<v Speaker 1>Texas hired a noted psychiatrist named Bruce Perry. His research

645
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:59.039
<v Speaker 1>focuses on the long term effects of trauma and children,

646
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.840
<v Speaker 1>and he's been an expert witness and a number of

647
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:07.039
<v Speaker 1>high profile incidents, including the Oklahoma bombing and the Columbine massacre.

648
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:09.360
<v Speaker 8>You know, one of the reasons that Bruce Perry came

649
00:39:09.400 --> 00:39:11.760
<v Speaker 8>into the picture was to try and deal with these children,

650
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:15.360
<v Speaker 8>to try and sort this out. Can can these cases

651
00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:19.719
<v Speaker 8>be salvaged? And the bottom line was non. I could

652
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:23.400
<v Speaker 8>not be salvaged. And that was hard, you know, but again,

653
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:26.920
<v Speaker 8>you walk away as a good prosecutor from a case,

654
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:30.840
<v Speaker 8>even though you may believe that the person is guilty,

655
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:35.079
<v Speaker 8>but if it has been so compromised because of misconduct

656
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:39.360
<v Speaker 8>and the credibility of the children has been so destroyed,

657
00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:44.280
<v Speaker 8>you may not like it. You have no choice. You

658
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.039
<v Speaker 8>have to walk away. And that's what happened in that case.

659
00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:51.320
<v Speaker 8>We had to dismiss and I had already left the

660
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:53.440
<v Speaker 8>AG's office. Wouldn't happen, but we all knew it was

661
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:56.519
<v Speaker 8>going to happen. That was one of our biggest concerns

662
00:39:57.239 --> 00:39:59.400
<v Speaker 8>was is there any way to salvage these cases against

663
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:01.480
<v Speaker 8>these people who may or may not have I mean,

664
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:04.679
<v Speaker 8>I can't tell you at this point. I believe something happened.

665
00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:08.280
<v Speaker 8>I believe there was some validity in those original cases

666
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:13.360
<v Speaker 8>but it was all just lost in all of the subnunsense.

667
00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:16.840
<v Speaker 1>So not only was the search for Kelly Wilson lost

668
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:19.800
<v Speaker 1>in the hysteria, there was very little doubt that at

669
00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:22.719
<v Speaker 1>least some members of the Kerr family had abused their

670
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:27.000
<v Speaker 1>own kids. In those cases, they were ruined too. But

671
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:30.119
<v Speaker 1>there was a bright side. Don and Tammy hadn't done

672
00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:33.519
<v Speaker 1>anything wrong. Their son Raymond had been pressured into making

673
00:40:33.639 --> 00:40:36.880
<v Speaker 1>up abuse claims against them. For all this time, Don

674
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:39.719
<v Speaker 1>and Tammy had been waiting for justice too. Folks and

675
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Gilmer were split on their guilt or innocence.

676
00:40:42.679 --> 00:40:46.400
<v Speaker 10>Somebody took a spray paint and spray painted a big

677
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:52.239
<v Speaker 10>IM on my car for molester. He had a big Cadillac,

678
00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:56.239
<v Speaker 10>Maroon Cadillac, and I mean this huge m spray painting

679
00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:58.039
<v Speaker 10>all over my Cadillac.

680
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:04.039
<v Speaker 6>So much stuff that want and people were so hateful,

681
00:41:05.559 --> 00:41:10.079
<v Speaker 6>big old go limb written across tobacco it and people

682
00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:11.840
<v Speaker 6>told me how to get it off. I said, I

683
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:14.280
<v Speaker 6>ain't getting it off. I drove around town with it

684
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:16.159
<v Speaker 6>on there. I mean, like you want to call me

685
00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:19.480
<v Speaker 6>a name? I said, Now it's gone. Now it finally

686
00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:19.920
<v Speaker 6>wore all.

687
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:24.039
<v Speaker 1>Don was also fielding anonymous phone calls.

688
00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:29.800
<v Speaker 6>Like, hey, yeah, ho's this. Well I just saw you

689
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:33.360
<v Speaker 6>on TV and I thought she's good looking and I'd

690
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:35.639
<v Speaker 6>like to get to know you. And I said, well,

691
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:38.719
<v Speaker 6>I got me a woman and I'm faithful to her.

692
00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:44.119
<v Speaker 6>Well okay, and one of us said, hey, you you

693
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:50.599
<v Speaker 6>that guy like to eat women, you know, and well

694
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:52.239
<v Speaker 6>killed then eat them.

695
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:54.639
<v Speaker 1>Don tries to make light of things now, but the

696
00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:56.960
<v Speaker 1>legal limbo was clearly taking a toll.

697
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:00.199
<v Speaker 10>We got to coordinate and then they cancel it court

698
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:02.400
<v Speaker 10>they knew they cancel it, and I mean, my nerves

699
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:05.960
<v Speaker 10>were just shot. And I remember one day I broke

700
00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:09.440
<v Speaker 10>down crimes so hard, right in the middle of work,

701
00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:12.960
<v Speaker 10>and I was a cashier at a convenience store and

702
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:14.800
<v Speaker 10>there was it was full, and I remember this guy

703
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:18.239
<v Speaker 10>walked up to me, goes, baby, we've been watching you

704
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:22.280
<v Speaker 10>for years. He goes, You've been so strong, he said,

705
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.800
<v Speaker 10>don't give up now, and I just I was like,

706
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:26.760
<v Speaker 10>you don't know, you just don't know.

707
00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:28.440
<v Speaker 1>He goes, no, we know you.

708
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:29.639
<v Speaker 6>We're so proud of you.

709
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:32.559
<v Speaker 10>And it was just like a lift me up, you know.

710
00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:35.920
<v Speaker 10>I mean, this stranger guy knew who I was. I

711
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:38.039
<v Speaker 10>didn't even know if they knew because that was the

712
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:41.280
<v Speaker 10>embarrassing part. You don't know who knows who you are.

713
00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:44.719
<v Speaker 10>You know, and I always feel I had an obligation

714
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:47.000
<v Speaker 10>when I'd meet you people, I needed to tell them

715
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:48.159
<v Speaker 10>right off who I was.

716
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:53.360
<v Speaker 1>Now, thanks to the bungling of Scott Lyfford's team and

717
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:58.000
<v Speaker 1>the CPS caseworkers, the molestation charges were gone. Don and

718
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:02.239
<v Speaker 1>Tammy were free and clear, But Raymond he was still

719
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:09.079
<v Speaker 1>trapped in foster care and Kelly was still missing. Deviltown

720
00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:11.800
<v Speaker 1>is a production of Imperative Entertainment. It was written and

721
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:15.559
<v Speaker 1>created by me Wes Ferguson. Executive producer is Jason Hoak.

722
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:19.159
<v Speaker 1>Audio engineering and editing by Shane Freeman and Jason Hoak.

723
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:23.440
<v Speaker 1>Original score is by Robert Ellis. Recording by Austin Sissler

724
00:43:23.559 --> 00:43:26.320
<v Speaker 1>at Eastside Studios. If you like the show, leave a

725
00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:29.360
<v Speaker 1>review and don't forget to tell your friends thanks for listening.