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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the

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social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway

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Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Welcome back to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 2: That makes me Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 3: We're joined for a second episode by Kate Miles, author

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of Trailed, One Woman's Quest to Solve the Shenandoah Murders,

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which is getting quite a lot of interest considering that

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there was just a big announcement made in this case. Kate,

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thank you for joining us again.

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Speaker 4: Hi still simmering with righteous indignation over here.

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Speaker 2: As you should be I'm always looking for some good

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news when we talk about these cases, and obviously getting

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some degree of information and a potential offender named and

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some answers, at least some, I would say, is good news.

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One other piece of good news, I think that's in

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the mix here. I struggle with the pronunciation of the

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attorney general's name, but I'll do my best and do it.

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Kristin will help me if I stumble. Virginia Attorney General

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Jason Mieris, I got to think back to my life

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in Los Angeles and get a little bit more Latino

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going on. There has made funds available for sexual Assault

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Kit Initiative grants. These are being given around the country,

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but in Virginia in particular. The backlog at the State

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Lab in Virginia and at Quantico, the FBI lab, also

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located in Virginia, is horrendous, particularly at Quantico, because they

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handle the FBI's cases and they handle cases for other

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law enforcement agencies. There are seventeen thousand different law enforcement

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agencies across the country, and the smaller ones definitely don't

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have their own labs. So the FBI's backlog is incredible.

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And I don't mean that in a good way. We've

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been waiting in some cases with the Colonial Parkway murders

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evidence for a year or more just for let's say

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three pieces of evidence to be tested. If the results

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are not what they want them to be, they might

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send in more evidence, but then we're literally waiting another

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year for test results. The good news is there are

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private labs around the country, many of whom we've talked

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to here on Mind over Murder, and with these Sexual

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Assault Kit Initiative grants, they are able to test untested

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rape kits, evidence from unsolved homicides, help identify unidentified remains, etc.

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One of the things that came out was the recent

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news in the Colonial Parkway murders is directly as a

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result of a SAKI grant, and this result is also

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partially as a result of another one of these SAKI grants.

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I want to make sure that we're thanking the Attorney

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General and the people that run the SAKI initiative around

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the country. It's really important and this is a bright

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spot because this allows us to use taxpayer funds to

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take the evidence to the private labs who have the

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state of the art equipment and can turn around things

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in a matter of weeks or months instead of literally years.

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I noticed that after the FBI press release came out,

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I noticed that the Virginia State Police, who were also

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essential to helping solve this case, they issued their own

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press release, and then the Attorney General sent out his

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own press release, and they all deserve credit for or

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helping to move this case forward. I know there's lots

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of places where we're frustrated, but that's actually a bright spot,

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and I think it's good news for families who are

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waiting answers in cases across the country.

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Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, and we know that there is a tremendous

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underfunding of this kind of work which needs to be resolved.

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It should not be the case that the FBI lab

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takes a year or more to be able to process.

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It should not be the case that they have such

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a backlog that they're not able to do their work,

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which is good work, we should say. The three of

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us were talking off air earlier. We were trying to

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pin down the number of untested rape kits in the US.

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We can't even pin that down. We were finding statistics

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as variable as twenty five thousand to one hundred thousand.

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It may even be more. Those are all people and

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their families and their loved ones who deserve justice, who

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haven't had justice because again, the kits haven't even been

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initially tested, let alone retested. That's an epidemic in this country,

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and it's something that needs to get resolved immediately.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely could not agree more. Last episode, Kate, we were

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talking a little bit about what we know so far

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and also what we don't know about Walter Leo Jackson

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Senior aka Leo. One of the things that you had

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mentioned that I thought was particularly interesting was the fact

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that the FBI said this guy's an avid hiker. I

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don't really know how they know that. I would be

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very interested to know how they know. I'm curious if

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you could take a couple of minutes before we get

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into some more information about Walter Leo Jackson, can you

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explain a little bit about the kind of hiking culture

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around the at and the sort of people not only

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that we're hiking the trail, amazing people like the ants

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that were hiking the trail, but also one thing that

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you mentioned in your book was the number of alarming

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people who were also hiking the at around the time

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that Lally and Julie were on their trip to Shenandoah.

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Can you get to that a little, because that was

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probably one of the most alarming parts of your book

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for me, is the sort of characters who also end

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up on the trail who may not be as upstanding

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as the rest of us.

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Speaker 4: Sure, and this was one of the culture clashes that

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really made a lot of this investigative work difficult. The

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first and primary culture class was whenever a violent crime

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happens in the National Park, that crime investigation becomes the

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joint purview of the FBI and the National Park Service

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law enforcement rangers. And as I say in the book,

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those are two very different cultures. And we saw a

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lot of the infighting that happened just between those two

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cultures just when it came to how are we going

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to bag and catalog and process the evidence from this

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particular crime scene. So we saw that there's another major

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culture clash that's happening, and that's between both the FBI

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and the National Park Service police and the hikers on

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the Appalatian Trail. We should say, and I really always

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need to do this strongly, especially for my friends at

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the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, which is the nonprofit arm of

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the trail that stewards and manages that Lolly and Julie

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were not on the at, they were just off of

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the AT. I think that gets misrepresented a lot of

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the time. They had spent significant amount of time on

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the trail. At that time in particular, and still today,

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there were certain cultural things that happened on the trail.

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For instance, folks there rarely go by their given names.

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They almost always have trail names. Those trail names change

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over time, and they're given to you by someone else.

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As I say it in the book, at the beginning

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of a hike, you may be a little hapless on

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the trail, and maybe you leave your stuff all over

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the place. You may be given the trail name yard Sale,

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and then that may evolve into something else, so yard

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arm or whatever. And so just tracking down these people

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who may have had multiple trail names was really tricky,

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and the folks doing this investigation didn't come from that culture.

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One of the really interesting things to me is that

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the Appalachian Trail Conservancy sent some of their own people down,

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both because they weren't getting information about this crime and

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so they didn't know how to keep their people safe,

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and also because they realized really quickly that both of

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these law enforcement agencies were way out of their element

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when it came to parsing this out, so they went

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to advocate for the trail and the people on the trail.

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The other thing that I think is really important to

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keep in mind here is again nineteen ninety six, long

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before cell phones, long before any smart technology, what hikers

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on the trail have always done is use trail logs

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to keep each other safe. We saw this and the

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very tragic murder of Ron Sanchez just a few years ago.

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The individual in that case responsible for that murder had

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already been known to people on their hikes, and so

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they were leaving notes to each other in these trail

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logs saying watch out for this, he's no good, or

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whatever else too. So that's how they're communicating with each other,

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and that's the lifeline of hikers, especially pre cell phones.

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One of the first things that happened after this murder

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was at the National Park Service investigators and the FBI

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came in and took all of those trail logs. So

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the three hikers didn't have a way to communicate with

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each other, and they were understandably terrified. So there's a

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lot to that. You mentioned the number of people who

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were reasonable suspects because of their unsavory past. That was

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a little bit more Shenandoora National Park than it was

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the trail so far as we know. But there were

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cameras at the entrances to the park that were recording

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license plates that then investigators were then running against registrations

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to figure out who was in the park at the time.

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And as an avid trail user and an avid National

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park visitor, I was highly disturbed by the number of

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sex offenders, people who were evading, people for whom there

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were warrants for their arrest, who were in Sherenandoah just

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that weekend of the crimes as well too, and so

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that created a very big pool of potential suspects that

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I think was really hard to work through. The other

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thing that for me became very clear very quickly is

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the lack of accounting system for crime in the national parks.

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And this continues to be true today. Yes, each park

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is it is at the purview of the superintendent if

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how and when crime gets recorded and investigated. So we

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still to this day, despite internal inspector general reviews by

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the Department of the Interior. Despite Government Accountability Office reviews,

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we have no codified reporting system for crime in our

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national parks, and we cannot say with any certainty at

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what rate it happens, how many murders happen in a year,

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how many rapes, how many violent crimes, how much malfeasance

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occurs at the hands of rangers. And this again is

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information that the American public needs to know.

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Speaker 2: We've been dealing with the National Park Service in the

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Colonial Parkway murders for thirty seven years. There's no question

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that the National Park Service doesn't want you to be

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thinking about crime when you're enjoying your time in the

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national park. Even what we talked about in our last episode,

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I have still never been able to get over the

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fact that Julie Williams and Lolly Winans were brutally murdered.

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It wasn't a bear attack, it wasn't a murder suicide,

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it was none of those things. It was clearly a

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double homicide, and yet they never informed the thousands of

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people that passed through there that there had been a

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double homicide of these two women hiking in camping at

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the Shenandoah National Park. I've never been able to get

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over the fact that the National Park Service got away

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with not even telling their visitors that an extremely violent

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crime had taken place, and they had no way of

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knowing whether those other visitors would still be at some risk.

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They didn't even know if the offender had left the

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National Park. It still shocks me to this day.

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Speaker 4: There was an internal memo that I quote in the

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book in which there was a very deliberate decision made

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to withhold this information and if asked to deny it.

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And it was really because of the intrepid reporting of

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local reporters, including the Washington Blade and LGBTQ plus publication

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in Washington, DC. And it was really the work of

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these local reporters who kept at it and kept saying,

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how could this have been a bear attack? How could

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this have been a murder suicide? What are you telling us?

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And why are you not telling us? It was because

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of that bootstrap reporting that the truth came out. And

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I owe so much of my work to them and

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what they were doing day in and day out again

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and again from nineteen ninety six onward.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that I love the most about

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your book is that there is so much healing back

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the layers of what has previously been hidden for so long,

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and it's just one bombshell after another for the first

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two hundred pages. I'm sitting there and I've been highlighting

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and annotating this even more than I did the first

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time around when I read it, and I've got whole

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entire pages where I'm like, oh my gosh, this is crazy.

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I can't believe this actually happened. There is so much

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You'd use the term mouthfeasance in our last episode, and

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I think that is true on so many levels, not

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just with the FBI, with the NPS as well. This

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is really just appalling and revisiting the book now for

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this reporting, I'm still appalled by it. What if anything

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can our listeners do to tell NPS and FBI, Hey,

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we want some more accountability here. Is there anything that

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we can do as National Park users and hikers and

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things like that, or do we just have to let

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this be what it is.

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Speaker 4: I'm really glad you asked that question, and I think

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there's so much that we can do. We feel I

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think a lot of us feel disempowered right now, and

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I think more than a few people feel pretty cynical

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about politics in America right now for some pretty good reasons.

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But yeah, no, we need to be doing a lot more.

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And as somebody who really loves to be outside in

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the wilderness, I really take to heart what Roosevelt first said,

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and that ken Burns echoed that the National Park System,

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if it was not America's best idea, it was a

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really great idea that America had, which is, let's make

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sure that the wilderness is accessible to everyone here. That

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was a great idea that has not happened. The wilderness

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is not accessible to differently abled people. It is not

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accessible to people who identify in what we call socially

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subordinate groups, so people who identify as queer or non

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binary or bipoc or differently abled or whatever else. And

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we have not shorn that up. We have not made

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the wilderness accessible to folks. So one of the things

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we can do is insist upon that. The other thing

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we can do is we can insist upon better funding

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for the National Park Service so that there are qualified

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rangers and they have the equipment they need to do

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the work. We saw a real spite in visitors to

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the park during COVID, and that has not abated. So

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we have even more visitors than ever, and yet the

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Park Service continues to atrophy in terms of its funding

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that's available to it. And the other thing. One of

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the most shocking things to me during writing the book

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was beginning to realize that while there are many very

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service oriented, diligent, talented individuals doing law enforcement work in

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the parks, it is also true that there are people

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who are not that doing law enforcement in the parks.

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The great work of Paul Berkowitz, who has written several

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books on the subject and who was a whistleblower as

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a law enforcement ranger for the part, he identified this

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very real problem that occurs in these parks, which is

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very similar to what we saw with the Catholic priest

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abuse that was happening in New England, and that is

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rangers and their bad behavior are ultimately rewarded by these

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lateral transfers and promotions. One of the rangers who played

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a prominent role not only in Kathy and Becky's investigation,

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but also Lolly and Julie's later went on to take

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evidence without a warrant to put it in an evidence

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locker when his supervisor insisted that he return it because

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it was illegally captured. He responded by changing the lock

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on the evidence locker, and for that he received a

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lateral move. That kind of stuff is just not okay.

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Policing that and holding the park Service accountable for that,

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that's really important as well too. Everybody deserves to feel

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safe on any National Park Service land, regardless of any

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identification or orientation they have, and as a country we've

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really sat down on that in ways that are not defendable.

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Speaker 3: One of the questions that has been asked, not only

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for Kate but also too, and I think this is

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a good time to address it, is whether or not

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there is any possibility that Leo Jackson might be involved

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in the Colonial Parkway murders, because there are substantial similarities

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between Julie and Lalli's murder and Kathy and Becky's murder

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ten years previous. And Bill, I'll let you go into

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that here in one second. So the question that I

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think a lot of people rightfully have is could Leo

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Jackson have been responsible for Kathy and Becky and then graduated,

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if you will, onto the travesty that he enacted upon

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Julian Lalli. We did find out some information about Leo Jackson,

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and I'll let you guys get into that, So whoever

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wants to start can start on that.

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Speaker 2: Some of the dates of his incarceration I'm talking about

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Jackson now would preclude his personal involvement in the first

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three of what we call the Colonial Parkway murder. So

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he's incarcerated in Ohio for one of the many rapes

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that he involved in. He's in jail in eighty six,

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eighty seven, in eighty eight, Thomas Dawski, Edward Snobling, and

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of course now we have an identified suspect in Robin Edwards,

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David Nobling, and the disappearance of Keith Colling, Cassandra Haley

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in eighty six, eighty seven, and eighty eight are precluded

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because he was incarcerated during that time. He was out

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of jail in time for the last of the Colonial

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Parkway murders, which is happening over Labor Day weekend nineteen

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eighty nine, and that's the murder of Anna Maria Phelps

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and Daniel Lauer. Not ruling it out, but the investigators

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that are currently working the case have some pretty strong

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suspects in that last one of the Colonial Parkway murders,

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as well, I don't think that Jackson is involved in

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the Colonial Parkway murders per sale at Kateway in as well.

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Speaker 4: I think that it would be difficult, but not impossible,

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to make a case that he was somehow able to

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leave this incarceration during the period of Kathy and Becky's

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murder to commit this. I think we've all gone back

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and forth, probably in terms of the degree to which,

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first of all of the crimes under the category Colonial

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Parkway murders are in fact connected or perhaps by the

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same perpetrator. I think that's obviously been a big question

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for people. I think we've maybe all gone back and

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forth a little bit on the degree to which Kathy

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and Becky's crime is connected to Lolly and Julie's crime. Certainly,

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it's true that there are some astounding and disturbing similarities

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between the two crimes which make it, i think, very tempting,

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if not easy, to assume that the same person was involved.

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But we've never been able to parse that out or

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unpack that, and so I think that's probably going to

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be a question mark until we have some more answers,

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particularly where Kathy and Becky are.

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Speaker 2: Concerned, and the FBI did say in nineteen ninety six

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publicly that they were exploring the possibility that the Thomas

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Dowsk murder not necessarily the other Colonial Parkway murders, that

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individual double homicide could be related to the murder of

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Julie Williams and Lolly Wining. So they all got the parallels.

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And I know we don't want to get two graphic

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here and mindo for murder, but there are a lot

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of substantial similarities. When you've got healthy, athletic, outdoorsy lesbian

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couples killed in a national park on our three day

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weekend knives are used, there are definitely similarities. As Kate says,

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sometimes an investigator might think, wow, we got to check

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that out. If, for example, all these years later, now

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we've identified as suspect in the Shenandoah case, I think

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that moves the Colonial Parkway murders, and specifically Kathy and

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Becky's murder onto the much less likely list. It's going

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to be difficult, if not impossible, for Jackson to be

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incarcerated in Ohio and killing couples in Virginia. Some of

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the other Virginia cases. However, there are gaps in his

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time in prison, so he's in and out, which is

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That's probably the whole discussion for another day. Why is

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this serial rapist and kidnapper?

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Speaker 4: Very short sentences?

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Speaker 2: Yes, remarkably disturbingly short sentences for extreme sexual violence. And

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when you look at his dates in and out of prison,

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you're like, why is he only serving a couple of

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years for what sound like absolutely heinous crimes? But in

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some examples that are worth talking about, he is out

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of jail during key periods where there are other unsolved

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murders in Virginia.

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Speaker 4: And the wrinkle for me, again that we don't know

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is was Jackson acting alone in the case of Lolly

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and Julie? And if Jackson was not acting alone, if

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for instance, Jackson was potentially being groomed by a killer,

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is it possible and again the likelihood of this, I'm

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going to say is small. But is it possible that

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if he was not acting alone, was that other individuals

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somehow involved with Kathy and Becky?

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Speaker 3: Again?

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Speaker 4: Probably unlikely at this point I think we can say.

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But until we know the answer, I don't think we

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should rule anything out.

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Speaker 2: Last time you talked with us about the ANNs and

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the two men that they met. There's the one guy.

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They were interested in him as a character because he

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was a through hiker, and it sounds like through hikers

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00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,880
are considered cool on some level when day hikers or

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weekend hikers meet people that are actually doing the full

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length of the Appalachian Trail. We suspect that the second man,

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the one in the car, could have been Jackson, and

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00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:46,079
certainly physically resembles their recollection nearly thirty years later. Of course,

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00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,519
do we know who the first man is, the so

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00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:50,599
called thru hiker.

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Speaker 4: We do not. We know who he is not. We

402
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,400
know he is not markovon Its, we know he is

403
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not Daryl Rice, but we do not know who he is.

404
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One of the things I'm trying to do right now

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00:23:00,319 --> 00:23:03,599
to trying to unpack other potential crimes that Jackson may

406
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,519
have been involved in, is trying to track down who

407
00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:11,279
this individual is or was. Why this person knew things

408
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that no one else knew. That's always been a big question,

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That's always been something that readers have keyed in on,

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and I think until we have those answers, it is

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fair to think that it is a possibility that these

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two individuals were somehow involved together We don't know to

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what degree, but it certainly seems like there was a

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distinct connection. They have information they should not have had,

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and it certainly is something that bears additional research for sure.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

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00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:55,440
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

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00:23:55,519 --> 00:24:00,240
mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just

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00:24:00,279 --> 00:24:02,720
wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme

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00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,559
effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to

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help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder

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and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward.

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We'd love it if you could support us in any

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way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to

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whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will

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00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,039
be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes

427
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,839
and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for

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00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,480
your support. Now back to Mind over Murder.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that I was particularly interested in

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was the report from the Behavioral Science Unit that you

431
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quoted from. Regarding this report, so that our listeners can

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hear it too, and then have you assessed okay, given

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what the BSU said back then, and given what we

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know about Leo Jackson, now how well did these things?

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Speaker 2: Gel?

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Speaker 3: I think we're doing what you said last time. We're

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00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:57,680
letting the FBI check their work, only we're going to

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00:24:57,759 --> 00:24:58,519
check it for them.

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Speaker 2: They're really going to like, I'm sure they are.

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00:25:01,839 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 4: And you know they're wearing t shirts that say we

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00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,039
heart Bill. Kristen and Kate.

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Speaker 3: Right, we've been telling people for a while that we're

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off the FBI's Christmas card list, and this is just

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going to cement that.

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Speaker 2: Look, if they won't check their work, as Kristen says,

446
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,319
I guess we're going to have to check it for them.

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00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 3: This is talking about the fact that the NPS in Richmond,

448
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,680
FBI Field Office had exhausted every lead and ruled out

449
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,599
every suspect. They had worked with the FBI's Behavioral Science

450
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,279
Unit viaure Today to construct a profile of the killer.

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00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,920
The subsequent report concluded that the murder of Julie Williams

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00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:44,000
and Lelly Whinings was a sexually motivated crime perpetrated by

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one offender acting alone. The offender, the reports authors surmised,

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had previously demonstrated behavior consistent with sexual offenders, most likely

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00:25:55,279 --> 00:25:58,039
the assailant saw the attack on Lelly and Julie as

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00:25:58,079 --> 00:26:01,400
an opportunity to act out a personsonal fantasy that linked

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00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,519
physical aggression with sexuality. The report also stated that, based

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00:26:05,599 --> 00:26:08,480
on the crime scene and evidence collected so far, the

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00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:12,720
offender had re selected Julian Lawley as his victims. He

460
00:26:12,759 --> 00:26:16,279
had conducted scrupulous planning to ensure that the crime unfolded

461
00:26:16,319 --> 00:26:20,279
based on his fantasy and with minimal risk of being discovered. Probably,

462
00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:22,720
the report concluded he'd been traveling with a murder kit

463
00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:25,920
for some time, most likely in his vehicle. He was

464
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,319
probably a prolific consumer of violent pornography. He liked to

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00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,960
keep tokens from his crimes personal items like underwear, jewelry,

466
00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:36,279
or wallets to enhance his fantasies after the crime. He

467
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,680
also probably retained records of the crime, including his written plans,

468
00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:42,680
photographs or drawings, and newspaper clippings, which he would keep

469
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,119
hidden and stored in a way that provided both security

470
00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:47,640
and ready access. I know we're not going to get

471
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,240
all of the answers to all of that, but did

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00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,680
the BSU back then do a pretty decent job of

473
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,119
profiling Leo Jackson.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but I think one of the questions that has

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00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,039
always been I think a very important one is how

476
00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:07,799
did the perpetrator find Lolly and Julie. They were camping

477
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,440
on a disused trail that used to be the Bridle Trail,

478
00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:15,279
and that's bridle as in horses, not wedding attire, and

479
00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:18,480
so they were camping on this disused trail that was

480
00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:22,720
very hard to find. Their tent was not visible when

481
00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:26,519
you were descending the trail. The National Park Service rangers

482
00:27:26,559 --> 00:27:30,440
responsible for patrolling this area walk past Lolly and Julie's

483
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,359
campsite multiple times when they were searching for the women

484
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,599
and did not see the tent. Big question is how

485
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,640
did this person find Lolly and Julie. One potential answer

486
00:27:40,839 --> 00:27:43,680
is that either one or both of them had walked

487
00:27:43,799 --> 00:27:47,039
up the third of a mile to the Skyland Lodge

488
00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:50,680
and Resort, where they might have gotten a drink or

489
00:27:50,759 --> 00:27:53,200
used the bathroom or the phone or something like that,

490
00:27:53,279 --> 00:27:55,720
and the person had either followed one or both of

491
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,119
them back to the campsite. That's one potential scenario even if,

492
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,119
and something I thought about in the case of Jackson is,

493
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,720
so far as we know, Jackson had only ever perpetrated

494
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:10,359
rape and kidnap using one woman at a time, right,

495
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,880
it's a lot to take on two. One potential scenario

496
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,200
is Jackson followed, for instance, Julie back from the lodge.

497
00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:21,960
Julie perhaps went up by herself, which we know they

498
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,559
were not always together, So maybe Julie went up to

499
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,599
use the phone or get a cup of tea or

500
00:28:26,599 --> 00:28:29,119
something like that. He saw her and thought she was

501
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,440
acting alone or by herself, and then he followed her

502
00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:36,119
thinking he was following a single woman. That's possible, but

503
00:28:36,279 --> 00:28:39,359
still he would have then very quickly realized that she

504
00:28:39,519 --> 00:28:42,519
was camping with another woman and a dog. So whoever

505
00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:45,640
it was, saw the scene and still decided it was

506
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,079
a good risk for them.

507
00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: Or he might have been committed to it. In other words,

508
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,359
if he had followed her back and then he had

509
00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:56,400
decided he was going to attack this woman for whatever reason,

510
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:02,039
continues to plunge forward, even with to women and a dog.

511
00:29:02,279 --> 00:29:04,920
From everything I've ever read about Tie, she sounds like

512
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,960
the sweetest dog around. Yeah, so I don't know that

513
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,839
he would necessarily attack someone, even if they were attacking

514
00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:16,920
his favorite person. We talked about escalation last time. This

515
00:29:17,039 --> 00:29:20,839
could be part of that. And then maybe he's committed

516
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,359
to it. He has attacked her, and then the second

517
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,440
woman shows up. There's a lot of different scenarios here

518
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,880
that he's clearly prepared himself to commit this act, because

519
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,240
you mentioned a murder kit in our last episode, and

520
00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:37,920
I have no doubt that he came equipped to rape

521
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,359
and kill. The Bau mentions it as well in their

522
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,920
profile that they thought he would have brought a murder

523
00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:46,400
kit with him in his vehicle, and I think they

524
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,720
may be right about a fair amount of this. As

525
00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:50,480
a matter of fact, when Kristen was reading them, I

526
00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:52,759
was taking them off, and probably for the first eight

527
00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:55,640
or so of the data points that they had mentioned,

528
00:29:56,319 --> 00:30:00,039
I actually was thinking yep. H. As we got a

529
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,279
a little further into the list, I thought, I'm not

530
00:30:02,319 --> 00:30:05,519
sure I could answer that question necessarily, but I couldn't

531
00:30:05,599 --> 00:30:09,119
rule it out. So you could see a couple of scenarios.

532
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,519
Speaker 4: Sure. One of the things that's always been very strange

533
00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:15,319
about this particular incident, in addition to the fact that

534
00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:19,400
the women were pretty fundamentally unfindable unless you had followed

535
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,200
them back from Skyland Lodge, was the staging of the vibrator,

536
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,240
and this was a rabbical that I went down at

537
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,519
great length with some really smart and fabulous feminist scholars

538
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:33,880
who are vibrator experts, and holy how are they amazing.

539
00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:37,400
So this was a vibrator that everybody who knew Lali

540
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:40,279
and Julie said didn't belong to either one of them.

541
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,720
We don't know that conclusively. We do know that, as

542
00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:48,599
one expert told me, there were infinitely better models out

543
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,960
there by the time, and this was a pretty rudimentary

544
00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:54,359
truck stop version. So there was the staging of the vibrator.

545
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,400
So we always assumed that by the sheer fact that

546
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,680
this vibrator, whether it belonged to Lally and Julie or perpetrator,

547
00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:04,279
that it was so prominently staged at the murder. Saying

548
00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:07,759
that that alone said that there was a significant sexual

549
00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:11,400
component to this for sure, telling that investigators always had

550
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,480
that I frankly I think I agree with and certainly

551
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,640
see no reason to disagree with, was that Julie was

552
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,559
probably the primary target, that Lali was probably killed first,

553
00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:25,000
and again not to be too graphic, but her body

554
00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:28,039
was found in her sleeping bag in the tent. Julie

555
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,599
was then taken about twenty yards away along with her

556
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,599
sleeping pad. When UV light analysis was completed. On the

557
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,559
sleeping pad, there's a very strange image of what appears

558
00:31:39,599 --> 00:31:42,599
to be Julie's calves and what looks like like a

559
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:48,000
BD S and M leather bondage device that's never been

560
00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:51,519
explained and certainly was not among the things that were

561
00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:54,799
found at the scene. So all of that led investigators,

562
00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:57,640
and I think rightly, to assume that Julie was more

563
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,680
of a primary target and that there was definitely a

564
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,519
sexual component to that. I don't know a lot of

565
00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:06,680
the details of how Jackson committed his crimes. I don't

566
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,480
know a lot about those things. I don't know to

567
00:32:09,559 --> 00:32:12,240
what degree all of this tracks with him. Certainly it

568
00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:15,480
tracks with a serial rapist in general. But I think

569
00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:18,440
until we know more about the specifics of how Jackson

570
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,119
committed his crimes, we won't know to what degree this

571
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,799
might have been a progression or regression or anything else.

572
00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: I would love for us to have an opportunity, and

573
00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:30,400
it would be great to pursue this. The details of

574
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,759
Jackson's other crimes and how he proceeded. We know he

575
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,400
was a house painter, which presents a lot of opportunity

576
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:43,160
to observe people's homes, both inside and outside. It would

577
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,200
be great if we are able to get some of

578
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,000
the records of some of these earlier cases back in

579
00:32:50,119 --> 00:32:54,359
Ohio where he has committed multiple offenses and served remarkably

580
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,799
short sentences. As we all noted with a groan, it

581
00:32:57,839 --> 00:33:00,960
would be very interesting to find find out how he

582
00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:06,559
went about those other sexual assaults. The bondage piece of equipment,

583
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,960
could that be used for restraining purposes as well, and

584
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,880
that might prevent her escape if she was bound together

585
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:13,519
in some way?

586
00:33:14,279 --> 00:33:16,519
Speaker 4: Yes, and both women were bound when they were found.

587
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,799
We know that this individual brought at least one and

588
00:33:19,839 --> 00:33:23,000
potentially two roles of duct tape with them. We can

589
00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:25,400
even determine based on the way that the duct tape

590
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,960
was cut the duct tape was not cut in the

591
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,319
same order that it was put on the women, and

592
00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:34,400
so one of the FBI forensic investigators had supposed that

593
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,839
the individual, and this is again the chilling organized fashion

594
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,039
of this particular crime, that this individual had taken the

595
00:33:41,079 --> 00:33:44,279
time to cut and then hang these strips of duct

596
00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:47,880
tape and then use them. There's some evidence that tape

597
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,200
was used first on one woman and then another and

598
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,319
then they were also bound using their own long underwear.

599
00:33:53,599 --> 00:33:56,319
So all of that advantage for all sorts of different reasons.

600
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,880
So we have all of that, We know that the

601
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,000
individual used that, We know that the individual obviously had

602
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,839
a knife with them. There seems to be some evidence

603
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,680
that the individual had potentially another type weapon with them,

604
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,920
based on the contusions and bruises that the women had

605
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,360
on their faces necks and ears that they had been

606
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,360
struck with something that had a very specific shape to it.

607
00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:19,360
These are all ems we know in at least one case,

608
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,039
Jackson kidnapped and raped a woman at knife point. As

609
00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:24,800
I said on the last episode, to me, that's a

610
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,360
proof of concept here. If he was kidnapping and raping

611
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,400
women at knife point, I think that builds the connection

612
00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:34,199
of him to this case. But yes, we need to

613
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,920
know more about him and his m I think to

614
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,320
really understand the degree to which this is and is

615
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,239
not aligned with his other crimes.

616
00:34:41,519 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 2: There's something very workman like about preparing the strips of tape,

617
00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:48,800
and that is what he does for a living.

618
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:49,519
Speaker 4: He is a.

619
00:34:51,519 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 2: There's something about I remember this from the book and

620
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,760
earlier research, the strips of tate and lining them up

621
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,719
for use. It always struck me as very workmanlike, and

622
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,920
that is precisely what he does for a living.

623
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 4: Yes, and I will say, and this is very chilling

624
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,480
for me some of the questions I've always had. We

625
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,679
should say that the FBI in the National Park Service

626
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,920
really mishandled this evidence. Right. There was a huge debate

627
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,599
about whether or not it was going to get processed

628
00:35:18,599 --> 00:35:20,480
at the crime scene, whether it was going to get

629
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,239
shipped to Quantico. In the end, what they decided to

630
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,199
do was load it up into wheelbarrows, take it up

631
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,840
to a ranger's cabin that wasn't being used where they

632
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,559
and this just breaks my heart. Hung it up to dry,

633
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,440
so untold amounts of evidence fell out of the sleeping

634
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,480
bags and the tents and everything else like that, And

635
00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:44,039
then they decided to process it at that ranger cabin.

636
00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:46,719
There may have been a lot more forensic and DNA

637
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,840
evidence than we know about. That said, there was still

638
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,719
not a lot. And one of the more chilling thoughts

639
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,159
that I had was, as a painter, are you very

640
00:35:56,199 --> 00:35:59,159
equipped with the use of drop cloths? But then perhaps

641
00:35:59,159 --> 00:36:02,239
you took another question that I've always had, and again

642
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,679
without being too graphic, it was. This was such a

643
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,800
violent way to kill these two women. It would have

644
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,199
been next to impossible for you not to have been.

645
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 3: Wearing their blood on you.

646
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 4: This person somehow managed to get out during We have

647
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,400
always assumed this happened during daylight hours because of how

648
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,480
tidy everything was, and this person managed to leave this

649
00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:27,880
crime scene undoubtedly somehow tainted with this woman, with the

650
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,519
women's blood, with the murder weapon, and move unseen. People

651
00:36:32,519 --> 00:36:35,039
have always speculated that perhaps he had a change of

652
00:36:35,079 --> 00:36:39,400
clothes with him. Did he, for instance, have like a painter's.

653
00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 3: GHLS cover el?

654
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah.

655
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,159
Speaker 4: Would he have known how to do that because of

656
00:36:43,199 --> 00:36:46,079
his job? Again, that gives me the chills to say

657
00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:49,719
out loud, but I think that I think it's possible, certainly,

658
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,559
knowing what we know about him already.

659
00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:55,039
Speaker 2: And if we know anything about sexual assault in America,

660
00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:57,920
how much you want to bet that he was involved

661
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,719
in a lot more sexual assault than he was charged in.

662
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,679
What I'm getting at is this guy is an experienced

663
00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:11,960
multiple offender. He knows what he's doing. That experience for

664
00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:16,760
him as a multiple offender could help prepare him for

665
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,199
an even more extreme act of violence, which is killing

666
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,239
Julian Lawley at the Shenandoah National Park. All of that

667
00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:28,920
previous experience for the charged and how much you want

668
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,440
to bet uncharged sexual assaults that he was involved in

669
00:37:32,639 --> 00:37:37,239
the years prior to that. He's well prepared on some level,

670
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,360
and he knows what he's doing, and.

671
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 4: He's bold, and he's audacious, and he's controlled. This was

672
00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:48,480
a very calculated, intellectual, cold blooded crime. In a lot

673
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,400
of ways. The terms that criminologists use is organized versus disorganized.

674
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,679
A crime of passion, a crime that begins as a

675
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,119
rape and turns into a murder, are usually disorganized crimes.

676
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,280
They lack that level of sophistication. I think everybody agrees

677
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,239
that this was a very organized, very sophisticated crime, and

678
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,320
that that requires real planning and intentionality and the ability

679
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,800
to keep it together. When two very strong women who

680
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,440
I'm sure did everything they could to fight for their

681
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,760
lives and the lives of their beloved, this was a

682
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,679
surmountable challenge for someone.

683
00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, this reminded me of one of the cases that

684
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,480
you talked about in your book, Carrie Stainer. This reminded

685
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,239
me actually a lot of Carrie Stainer in his series

686
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,239
of crimes, which, like we could do a whole entire

687
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,079
other podcast on I did want to ask about one

688
00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:42,880
other thing that the FBI made a point of placing

689
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,239
in their seeking information poster about Leo Jackson. They had

690
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,039
mentioned first that he had two cars. He was using

691
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:56,159
this chestnut brown AMC Eagle thirty and a con Aline van,

692
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,119
which I'm just I'm being flippantly calling the serial killer van,

693
00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:01,159
but like it is what it is. But they also

694
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,599
made a point of saying that he was known to

695
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,079
use temporary tags ault license plates can frequently change vehicles.

696
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:11,960
I'm curious if you think they're going to try to

697
00:39:12,639 --> 00:39:15,519
position him as a possible suspect in their Route twenty

698
00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:18,599
nine stockings because they mentioned that information.

699
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 4: You they tried awfully hard to position Darryl Rice in

700
00:39:22,039 --> 00:39:24,760
that way, despite the fact that Rice had alibis. I

701
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,639
think for almost all of them, if not all of them,

702
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,639
one of the things, again, as I said on the

703
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,719
last episode, as a journalist, I'm always simultaneously listening to

704
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,400
what is said and what is not said, and often

705
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,840
it's what's not said that's more interesting to me. During

706
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,719
the press conference, they made a point of saying when

707
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,800
they knew Darryl Rice was in the park. They did

708
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:46,880
not say.

709
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,599
Speaker 2: Oh, I noticed the same thing.

710
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,159
Speaker 4: They did not say if and when Jackson was in

711
00:39:54,199 --> 00:39:58,320
the park. We have their excel spreadsheet of all of

712
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,360
the license plates of folks who we were in the

713
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,800
park that week. Now we should say that one camera

714
00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:07,760
at one entrance station was broken, and so it is

715
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,639
not a complete list. That said, I found it very

716
00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:14,760
notable that at no time did they say we know

717
00:40:15,079 --> 00:40:18,880
that Jackson was in the park. For instance, on May twenty.

718
00:40:18,639 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 2: Eight, I noticed the exact same thing that was real.

719
00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 4: In fact, they seem to be saying, don't worry about

720
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,480
the fact that you're not going to find his license

721
00:40:26,519 --> 00:40:30,239
plate on this spreadsheet because he probably changed his license plate.

722
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,679
And sure he probably did. How much evidence do we

723
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,920
have here would there have been a conviction in this case?

724
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:39,800
We don't know.

725
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: Lots of questions remain.

726
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,519
Speaker 4: Dear FBI, please answer these questions.

727
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 3: We agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment.

728
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 4: Dear FBI, please answer these questions and show your work.

729
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,800
Please help us trust you, Please help us believe in you.

730
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:02,679
Speaker 3: Please please have said over and over transparency and accountability

731
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,400
or what we want from the FBI. So as Kate said,

732
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,800
dear FBI, please show it. Show your work. I love that,

733
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,679
Show your work. The book is trailed one woman's quest

734
00:41:11,679 --> 00:41:14,400
to solve the Shenandoah murders. Kater, are you going to

735
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,159
be writing a concluding chapter, an epilogue or something for this?

736
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:19,559
I feel like you would almost have to.

737
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 4: I think we still have to see how this is

738
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,679
going to play out. This is so new, and I

739
00:41:24,679 --> 00:41:28,480
think it's changing in real time. I am very fortunate

740
00:41:28,519 --> 00:41:31,639
that the book was optioned as a streaming series, and

741
00:41:31,679 --> 00:41:34,719
so I've been putting a lot of my attention into that,

742
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,039
and I think that's probably where a lot of this

743
00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:39,320
work is going to appear. This is still very active

744
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,320
to me. I'm still very much investigating that. So stay tuned,

745
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,119
hopefully for some more definitive news on the potential show,

746
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,760
and we'll keep unpacking things there for sure.

747
00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 3: Amazing. Thank you for joining us, Kate. We appreciate it,

748
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,159
and thank you for all the work that you do

749
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,960
on behalf of Julie and Lawley and their families and

750
00:41:57,039 --> 00:42:01,480
all the other victims in these cases. Work is not unnoticed,

751
00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:03,159
it is very thoroughly appreciated.

752
00:42:03,199 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

753
00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:06,639
Speaker 4: Thank you and thanks to both of you. Thank you

754
00:42:06,679 --> 00:42:10,440
to your listeners. You two are out there doing God's

755
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,000
work each and every single day, and so are your listeners.

756
00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:15,159
And being a part of this community is I think

757
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,039
really important. And I've said this before and it's a cliche,

758
00:42:18,119 --> 00:42:20,519
but I'm going to say it again. It takes a

759
00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:23,519
village to do this work. And I am so grateful

760
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,440
for the number of sort of citizens sleuths out there

761
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:28,440
who want to take this on with all of us.

762
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:29,679
Speaker 3: So please keep at it, folks.

763
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 4: We need you all so much.

764
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:33,199
Speaker 3: That is going to do it for this episode of

765
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,239
mind Never Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll

766
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:37,039
see you next time.

767
00:42:46,559 --> 00:42:50,079
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

768
00:42:50,159 --> 00:42:51,599
Another Dog Productions.

769
00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

770
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

771
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.

772
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.

773
00:43:06,159 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

774
00:43:09,519 --> 00:43:12,119
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

775
00:43:12,199 --> 00:43:14,000
Murders on Facebook.

776
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

777
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,480
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778
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,039
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder,