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Speaker 1: Hmm. You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network and

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now it's time for the Paranormal Peep Show.

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Speaker 2: Hi, folks, you're listening to the Paranormal Peep Show on

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the Paranormal UK Paceday Network. It's been a while since

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I've been doing this, folks. I've been very busy for

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Halloway and so I've not been doing this for a

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couple of months now. But we're in the November edition.

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The Orange Man has one, as you can tell by

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the hat. And Hello Neil and Hello Ben.

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Speaker 1: How you been. We are fine.

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Speaker 3: We are fine. We're absolutely good and stunning, aren't we Ben?

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Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely. It's great to be back on the Paranormal

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Peep Show with Andy and Neil and our guest Matt Arnold.

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So I'm looking forward very much to this show.

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Speaker 3: So, Matt Arnold, thank you very much for joining us.

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So just to give a little bit of background for

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our audience that are listening or viewing, we met you

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at the end of August. You was kind of one

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of the participants in the Seriously Strange conference which was

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run by the Association of FROMA I can't remember what

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they called now, scientist. Thank you eight sapp or something

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like that, and you also kind of co hosted a

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dialogue between members of the panel and the audience as well,

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so you kind of hosted it. So welcome to the

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Parallel Beach Show. Thanks for taking the time out to

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come and chat to us. Now, you did a presentation

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there on hauntings, which I thought was a very interesting thing.

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Is one that hadn't been covered before to your knowledge,

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and you actually went back and looked through the diaries

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of the people that the original haunting was affected by.

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So what was that haunting? Can you tell us a

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bit about it?

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Speaker 1: So this is about the Epworth Rectory poltergeist case, which

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comes from the seventeen hundreds. We're talking of four weeks

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over December to January of I remember the date exactly.

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I think it's seventeen sixteen to seventeen seventeen, something like that.

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And interestingly, it's incredibly well documented, not because of people

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going and investigating it themselves, but by the actual people

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that were experiencing this particular phenomena or the phenomena that

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were taking plates. So the people that the house itself

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would Worth. The rectory was the residence of Samuel and

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Samuel Wesley and his family, and essentially John Wesley is

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the guy who invented methodism really, and John Wesley was

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a bit of a paranormal investigator. He was really wanted

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to know what was going on with this, and about

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seventy years later he wrote a story or the accounts

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of the hauntings and the apparitions and the things like

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that that went on in his father's house. And I thought, well,

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that's great, lovely. It was during lockdown when I was

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doing this research. Really, I got nothing else to do.

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I was furlough, so I took this case and I thought, right,

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what can I do from an armchair slothing perspective? And

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the materials that I had access to were the letters

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between the family members and the recollections that he had

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in his memoir seventy years later. But also managed to

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find the layout of the house as well from an

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English heritage tree ring analysis that was being done on

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the property, so they had the layout of the property

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at the time the analysis was done, so nobody that

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I'd know had done this previously. I wanted to go

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back and walk through the haunting day by day, week

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by week, where things happen in certain places when they happened,

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and who was where, who was living, who was sleeping

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in what rooms at the time, who was moving around

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in what rooms, And you can do all of that

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from the letters themselves. They can tell you who was

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where at those locations, so you can even see other

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people coming in from outside the family. You've got the

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local vicar from up the road was basically called in

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to try and help out at one point towards the end,

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and that was actually the last time that they had

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any major stuff happen. But we've got things that are

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bangings in and around the house. We've got groans, you've

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got sounds like chains rattling and metal work rattling, things

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like bottles being smashed under staircases, all sorts of stuff,

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rustling of clothing as it's going past people. Even a

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headless badger going up a girl's skirt, which was the

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one thing that seemed to raise a lot of smiles

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at us up. I don't know why. Headless badger. Yes,

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that was what the mother recalled, but it's not in

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any of the other letters from any of the other witnesses,

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so it's fairly subjective to that one. So yeah, I

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decided I'd go and plant out work it out, and

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then about a year later I was able to go

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and see the different places himselves. One of the interesting

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things was, according to the accounts, if you timeline and

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dove tailor altogether, you can see where there should be

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a particular doorway between two rooms. And it's not on

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the plan that the English heritage you've gotten. It's not

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there in terms of the doorway itself has been blocked up,

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but there is there was a doorway there in that

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that's been blocked up. But I've discovered that through the

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through the letters themselves, you could work that out. Then

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things like where was the paper room the paper chamber

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because pet wall paper was expensive and it wouldn't have

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been used in the nursery. It was used somewhere else instead.

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So we've got some of the rooms being swapped around.

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So and other people have used the letters to work

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out where people were residing, what rooms there were. The

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interesting thing is that all of the family, you've got

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the male and female parents, but then you've got six

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girls and two boys. The two sorry, three lads. Three

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lads were away from the house at the time. They

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were being schooled in London and this is Atworth in Lincolnshire,

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so it was only gos that were in the house

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at the time, ranging from twenty twenty one down to

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something like six. And you've also got a servant, the

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male servant of mister Samuel Wesley, and you've got sort

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of a made type character. And the male servant was

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sleeping in the loft area on the second floor sort

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of third fourth for American listeners, and that was his residence.

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And I kind of think from looking at some of

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the analysis of the drainage that was taking place in

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the historical records, they were draining that particular area of

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the land around the Lincolnship, the flats and the Isle

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of Axon, and I think that there was some land

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settlement going on that was making the stuff creek. The

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house itself was reason new because the previous one had

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burnt down. Disgruntled villagers they think were the ones that

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caused that. So I'm thinking that there initially was some

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phenomena that happened in terms of creeks and banks. Some

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one person reckons they saw a floating grinding corn mill

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milf grinding corn. They saw that floating through the air.

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But that's the one thing that appears, and it appears

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in the later recollections seventy years later. It doesn't appear

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in any of the original documentation. So I think, as

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Tolkien Gandalf said, or maybe fran Walsh's version of Gandalf

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and then Peter Clark's Peter Jackson's version of GAMBALKI, all

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good stories deserve embellishment, and I think that's what was

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going on with the poltergeist. I think it's the same

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as East Drive Ease Drive as well. Originally something was happening,

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it died off very quickly, and in order to continue

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the excitement, some of the family members carried it on,

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and maybe even one of them used it to their

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advantage to cover up a potential affair or even a

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relationship they were having with one of the with the

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man servant that.

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Speaker 3: Might explain they had dispadger. So you think there was

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any kind of psychic activity or do you think it

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was just some sort of land movement that was causing

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the noises.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm fairly skeptical. From what I can see, I

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don't think there was anything. I think there was a

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lot of suggestion going on. I believe I'm a believer

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this sort of stuff, but I think there was a

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lot of suggestion a lot of bored girls wanted some

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excitement in their lives being having an oppressive father over them.

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Speaker 3: It does have the kind of qualities though that a

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reminiscent of other poltergeist.

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Speaker 2: The ape Viel vaulting was exactly that. So those the

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girls there, Janet and Margaret, I think from memory the

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allegations there were they were making things up to get attention. However,

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there were some odd things that were seen by police

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officers and magicians and illusionists and press people. So there's

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a weird mix between the girls having a laugh and

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having fun and funny enough, Maurice Gross actually caught the

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girls tanking around and he knew what was going on.

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He wasn't stupid, and the girls kind of later admitted

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that they were pranking around. However, layered on top of

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that was the actual genuine stuff as well.

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Speaker 1: So I think there could potentially have been something going

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on at the beginning, but I don't know what. But

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I think the majority of stuff can be counted for

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by pranking.

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Speaker 4: These kinds of blusof some double bluffs occur all the time,

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in this field, and you could if you're looking at

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big football ghosts or UFOs or anything like that, you're

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you're generally find that there is some kind of genuine phenomenon.

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A lot of attention is brought towards it, and then

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it kind of grows legs. And I mean, I know

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that people were accusing Janet and Margaret, as you mentioned Andrew,

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they they because of course they they did. Deborah Hyde

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made this point. I think, I don't think he's quite fair,

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but she made the point that these girls were being

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brought up by a single mother. They had very little

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contact with their father because he that the parents split

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up when they were very young. And you know, having

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having Morris Gross in the house, he became a kind

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of father figure to the girls. It's and then therefore

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there was this psychological need to keep him there, essentially

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why there was all these things happening. But the television

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wasn't affected because in those days, you know, the TV

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was the sense of the kids entertainment.

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Speaker 2: It's so I've never really thought of it that way. Actually, Ben,

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it's a good point.

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Speaker 4: And I don't agree with that, but that's it's very

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often said that that is the case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Morris Grows are kind of like a father figure. Interesting,

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I will say, and this is this is very anecdotal

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and it cannot be proven. I will say that there's

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a landlady that I know of a pub. She reckons

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that she is friends with the lollipop lady that was

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helping kids across the road outside the Enfield Poltergeist House

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when it was happening in the seventies. The lollipop lady

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claims that she could see through the window, the window

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of the bedroom, and she could see the kids actually levitating.

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That's anecdotal, but that's that's what I was talking.

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Speaker 4: It's independent witness, which she's really really great. As far

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as the case that Matt's brought up, we're dealing with

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a much older case from much further, long long ago.

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I mean, I don't know enough about this particular incident

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and have enough knowledge about the history of the family

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and the instance. And indeed the man himself, John Wesley,

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who's essentially found as a religion there's Wesleyans. Now ever,

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there I mean my where where my my mother comes

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from in the Netherlands, there's like she was she was

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from Limburg in the southeast for the Roman Catholic, but

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there's lots of different Protestant denominations, you know, Nonconformist Protestantism

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is a big thing in the Netherlands, as it is

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in Wales where I put him with a father, you

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know where I lived in.

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Speaker 1: What's Wesley is in Breathdadism if you've outread this same

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thing pretty much. Yeah, The interesting thing is that the

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phenomena took a break on December twenty fifth.

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Speaker 3: That's interesting.

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Speaker 4: Special about the September twenty fifth, Sorry, I don't know

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only about this case. Then December Christmas, December, so I thought, yeah, September,

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all right, he took time off for Christmas, very handy.

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Speaker 1: And then they had the investigated visual on the twenty eighth,

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where they actually got somebody else to look into this.

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That was the last time anything happened. And my thinking

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is basically that the couple that their daughter and the

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man servant, that the ones that were utilizing and creating

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some of the phenomena as a distraction in order to

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cover up their relationship, and it all got a little

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bit too hot. And what you'll find as well is

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that this particular daughter goes incredibly off the rails in

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terms of with men and stuff, ends up becoming pregnant

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and married off very quickly to a plumber, local plumber,

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and because she's seen as intellectually more superior to him,

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that relationship never carried on, and she ended up writing

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your whole part of poetry which is very much against

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marriage and get against some of the stuff that her

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father was. So I think you know this, this whole

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This was a girl who is incredibly hormonal, and you know,

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you've got a brand new guy that's just come in

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a month before to the to the family, and then

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all these phenomenas start taking off.

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Speaker 4: Well there's two questions.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, and I'll just go this is a very quick

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point with the hormones thing, and this might be relevant,

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it might not. Poltergeist activity and paranormal activity tends to

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kind of happen when when people are prebu vesterent all

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going into kind of hormonal changes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there is that that that's one of the fear

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is of poltergeist. So you know John Fraser, so he's

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got some good stuff on pultidize and there's one big

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box of paranormal tricks, which is in the latest book,

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is one that is worth reading because it kind of

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lumps a lot of this stuff together. And I think

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hormones do act maybe maybe as a magnet for some

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sort of stuff to start happening. I don't know, I don't.

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I don't think necessarily it's our hormones itself, but who knows.

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I mean, great stuff than dreams are made of.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's like we It's just that the horn the

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hormones of the body changes called psychological changes, which is

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said to be a part of this. I mean the film,

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the film The Exorcist, which of course the main that

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the target of this paran all this demonic possession is

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a is a young girl who's just entering puberty. And

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it's there there were saying that boys make worse babies

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and girls make worse teenagersn't I've been the father of

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a thirty year old, which is now its now long

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in the past. I can attest to that. But it's

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it's it could be that whatever if in terms of

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genuine when they are genuine phenomena, and some of the

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phenomena are genuine, they say they're attracted to certain kinds

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of people because polter guys tend to center around person

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rather than the place and are attracted to certain kinds

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of people. Very often it is a young a young person,

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usually girl in early adolescents, who's experienced it. It could be

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just an energy, it could be like an energetic psychological thing.

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I mean, it could be someone like that. But it's

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two There's two main questions I want to bring up, Matt,

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the first being the idea of distraction and now the

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idea that certain esoteric phenomena are essentially conjured up as

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some kind of neo mythology to launder more earthly secrets,

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such as illicit affairs. It's not very original today, is

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actually quite trendy, usually related to UFOs and their relationship

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between the government and the people. I do have a

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criticism of that, I mean talking generally, I mean, I

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don't know. Maybe in this specific case it could be

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an exception. My general criticism of this idea is it

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can backfire so easily and so badly that I'm surprised,

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as you so often, because it could end up drawing

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more attention towards what you're trying to hide.

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Speaker 1: In modern day terms, yes, but this wasn't the phenomenon really.

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I mean, you've got the tedworth drummer which had just happened.

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So I'm thinking that potentially that's on the grapevine, as

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were of gossip between village to village to village. But

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I think the reason why it's it stopped on the

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twenty eighth was because this is getting too hot to handle.

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We're getting other people that are going to catch us

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out at this point. I think that's that's my own

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thinking on this. However, there were some other bits and

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pieces that happened, dancing knives on tables, that sort of stuff,

297
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which happened a few months later, but then it kind

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of that was it. There was nothing else.

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Speaker 4: It was kind of research like this that happened with Enfield.

300
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There was a minor resurge in a few months after

301
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the main phenomenon died down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Weirdly, these things do happen in waves, and I've heard

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this that they kind of build it. They built it,

305
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builds up quietly and then you get a massive peak

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and then for some reason, bafflingly, it just kind of

307
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drops away again.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday. What happened to this case?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they saybe that ties in though like that that's

310
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talked about the silence on the twenty fifth of December

311
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and maybe with other cases as well, there could be

312
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social things happening around their village or around the family,

313
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and obviously their attention is diverted to deal with that

314
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social whatever it may be a significant date the twenty

315
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fifth of December or someone's birthday, someone is coming to visit,

316
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and things the focus whether it's a you know, they're

317
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they're they're deliberately stopping their activities because of that they're distracted,

318
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or the power if there's a psychic palan's causing it

319
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subsides because the attention is focused on some other thing

320
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to take their mind. But it, I don't know, it's an.

321
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Speaker 4: Interesting is because simply but yeah, just too many people

322
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in the house in unusual people.

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Speaker 1: In the house. Yeah, and I know that did Sorry

324
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before you carry on. Second, I'm conscious you've got it

325
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,000
in the second. But the mother did ask whatever it was,

326
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not to disturb the during the prayers between five and six,

327
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and it allered that.

328
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Speaker 4: Wow, nice, that's a very, that's a very. Ghosts are

329
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,759
going to be that convenient. You know, maybe they could

330
00:21:07,839 --> 00:21:09,519
like do some housework as well.

331
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Speaker 1: Well. There is that, but what also is the father?

332
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I think she was a Jacobite and the father was

333
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very much for William of Borrange being the king, so

334
00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:24,200
there was some political tension, and in fact the father

335
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,039
had walked out for a year before this kicked off

336
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as well, and it had come back. So there's you've

337
00:21:30,039 --> 00:21:34,720
got a very fractured, fragile family dynamic going on there

338
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as well.

339
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Speaker 4: There's the idea that's sorry, there you get like a

340
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phenomenon which is then a hoax which then gets out

341
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of hand. This has happened before. I mean there were

342
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,319
there were several real examples employed too many to mention,

343
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the alien autopsy hoax and things like that. Sorry, Colin Wolter,

344
00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:58,279
but it is. And there's also the in the case

345
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of the Fox sisters, the invention of inventors of perspiracialism,

346
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and about forty years after they've first launched the movement,

347
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they then made a confession. Now I think that confession

348
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was fabricated because basically their lives were falling apart as

349
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a result of their their celebrity status, and their barriages

350
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were breaking down, things like this. But nevertheless, there was

351
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,400
a they did Conford and say, look this none of

352
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,279
this is real. Can we just roll this back? Can

353
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we just please stop this.

354
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Speaker 2: You think they were pressured to buy their husbands or

355
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their family.

356
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Speaker 4: They I think they probably agreed. I mean my view,

357
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I haven't looked at the case. I think they probably

358
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agreed between themselves to make a false confession.

359
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Speaker 1: The third sister actually was wanting them to carry on

360
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with it.

361
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Speaker 4: Oh, my third sister. But I've got another point I

362
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,640
want to raise, but you go in. Sorry, Okay.

363
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Speaker 3: I'll just say this about the Fox Sisters because I

364
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actually cover them in my book, which is true Tales

365
00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:57,759
of the Paranoral out there a commercial break, So basically

366
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I covered the Fox sisters. And although it appears that

367
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this anonymous start with the Fox sisters the house where

368
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:10,759
they were, there was actually activity in that house before

369
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they had moved in, and it occurred to the previous

370
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family that lived in the house.

371
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Speaker 1: And then when the.

372
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Speaker 3: Fox Sisters were taking away to like other neighboring houses

373
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away from the farmer, all the villagers assembled in the

374
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house and they were still getting the farm up in

375
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there without the Fox Sisters being present, and they were

376
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asking questions of whatever was causing the disturbance that they said,

377
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,400
what is the age of my wife? And it would

378
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,480
click thirty six times for you know, years, thirty six years,

379
00:23:38,799 --> 00:23:41,119
and they managed to work out a kind of code

380
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,640
and sort of get some sort of communication gone. And

381
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,880
the Fox sisters weren't even present, So for them to

382
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,680
confess it was all fake, I think was some sort

383
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,000
of thing they did under duress.

384
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Speaker 1: That's interesting.

385
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,799
Speaker 4: I thoughtunly the house has gone now. I mean I

386
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,839
know somebody who actually went to the location, you can

387
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,559
they know where it used to be. But I'm fortunately

388
00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:01,400
that the oxs this house has now gone.

389
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 2: The Americans or English American.

390
00:24:05,079 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 4: There's another wish you'll want to bring up, and I

391
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,559
mean Matt's already touched on this, is we're talking about

392
00:24:09,559 --> 00:24:11,799
a very very different kind of culture in those days,

393
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,000
and politically a very difficult, a very different political landscape

394
00:24:16,039 --> 00:24:19,200
because the secularism we have in our current world didn't exist.

395
00:24:19,519 --> 00:24:24,160
Politics and the church were intimately connected. And you've already

396
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,119
touched on this. Matt John Wesley presumably, as you say,

397
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,160
he was a founder of a new faith as supposed

398
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,359
in those days, you know, before it took off. He

399
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,200
may well have been dubbed a cult leader.

400
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: What he wasn't so much a cult leader or a

401
00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:43,839
new faith it's just a tradition within the nonconformism.

402
00:24:43,519 --> 00:24:48,599
Speaker 4: All right, But how did this phenomena aid or hinder

403
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,240
his religious career?

404
00:24:50,279 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: Didn't It didn't. It had nothing to do with his

405
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:59,720
religious career. It just didn't have any impact in that sense.

406
00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:03,359
He he was already a believer in spirits and the

407
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,519
afterlife anyway, so this this whole thing that it was

408
00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:11,160
interested in, and he was kept on writing back and forth.

409
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,000
We've got the letters, but it didn't really impact on

410
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,559
his breaking away from the Church of England, right.

411
00:25:19,599 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 4: I see that's interesting because I mean, of course, maybe

412
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:23,880
again it's a sign of the times. But if you

413
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,880
go to if you go to a church today and

414
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,920
you ask the vicar about this, I mean there are exceptions.

415
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,680
I mean, of course Asseps President Father Lionel Fanthorpe is

416
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,200
an exception. But generally the clergy, it's not that they

417
00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:39,839
reject it, they just generally have no interest in. Some

418
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,599
outly say you can't contact the spirits of the dead.

419
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,039
They belong to God until the day of judgment or

420
00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:49,000
when you die, you won't have any contact with them.

421
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: I know.

422
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 4: Of course, like I said, it depends on the individual

423
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,640
beliefs or the beliefs of the particular church. But generally speaking,

424
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,279
I found that the priesthood is not very open to

425
00:25:58,359 --> 00:25:59,119
this kind of scene.

426
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: I think, to be perfectly honest, the priesthood has been

427
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,519
embarrassed by it, and it's either tried to pathologize it

428
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,599
or psychologize it, or demonize it one of the three,

429
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,160
rather than try and understand it. I mean, this is

430
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,680
why after World War two and World War One, when

431
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,240
people were having their apparitions of their loved ones visiting

432
00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:24,400
them and their loved one had died in Flanders Fields

433
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,039
or you know, far fields, and they were getting on

434
00:26:29,079 --> 00:26:34,880
that night messages and apparitions and visitations, the church by

435
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:40,160
and large either pathologized that you're ill as some mental illness,

436
00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:42,960
psychologized it while it was just all in your head,

437
00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:46,640
or demonized it while it was just an impersonation. It

438
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,119
really wasn't your thing. It was just a demon. And

439
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,279
as a result of that, a lot of people just

440
00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:57,640
went well, No, the conversation that I had led to

441
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:04,599
an increasing peace and joy and love, and these if

442
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,000
you know your listeners well might have heard of something

443
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,680
all thri to the spirit love, joy, peace, patients, kindness, goodness,

444
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,440
gentle as, faithfulness and self control, and they were going, well,

445
00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:19,960
this doesn't make sense because this was real. I know

446
00:27:20,039 --> 00:27:22,960
it was my husband, it wasn't an in firstination, and

447
00:27:23,839 --> 00:27:25,960
I'm sorry, but I'm going to go elsewhere for answers.

448
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,640
And so they went to the Spiritualist Church, which said, yeah,

449
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,599
of course it was your husband, it was your son.

450
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:34,960
And as a result, the church lost a lot of

451
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,920
people after that, which is why the organization I belonged to,

452
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,240
the Church's Fellowship for Psychical and Spiritual Studies actually began

453
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:51,880
in nineteen fifty three to address this paucity of knowledge

454
00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:56,960
about the afterlife and about though loved ones going into

455
00:27:57,039 --> 00:28:01,359
the afterlife and how do we deal with these particular

456
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:06,960
phenomena that are coming about. So I mean, now we've

457
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:10,039
got one of our patrons is Rowan Williams, who was

458
00:28:10,079 --> 00:28:14,160
the previous Archbishop of Canterbury. So you know we have

459
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,559
got there are a few good men, as it were,

460
00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:23,039
and women out there who really do accept in the

461
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,599
church that this stuff is real. And you know, you

462
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,680
test these things, you make sure that you don't just

463
00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:32,279
leave the door open for anybody to come in sort

464
00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:36,960
of stuff, and we kind of don't advocate going running

465
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,000
around trying to communicate with them. But where there are issues,

466
00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:43,359
where there's disturbances, where there is what we call the

467
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,359
unquiet dead, where there's unresolved stuff, then we can we

468
00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:56,200
help people to understand this and reach out to clergy

469
00:28:56,599 --> 00:29:01,079
who are also sympathetic and can deal with this stuff

470
00:29:01,279 --> 00:29:03,720
in a way that is not just I'm going to

471
00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:06,759
cast it to a pit of hell type of American style.

472
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,759
I mean, I'm myself am a member of the Midlands

473
00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:13,359
Deliverance for them, So every year we get together a

474
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,079
bunch of deliverance ministers. Now you know, they don't come

475
00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:19,200
in with their trench coats and their you know, their

476
00:29:20,039 --> 00:29:23,000
hats and their bag, with their crucifixes and all that.

477
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,119
It's nothing like the ex system and deliverance ministry itself

478
00:29:27,279 --> 00:29:33,920
is just it's not what American style evangelicalism portrays it

479
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,839
as shout it out and make a big station of it.

480
00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:47,000
It's quite peaceful. It's something that is taken seriously and

481
00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:51,720
there's a an intention to bring peace to both sides

482
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,480
rather than just cast it out and leave it to

483
00:29:57,119 --> 00:29:59,680
flit about as it were. I mean, yeah, you will

484
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,839
get something that they work as a multi disciplinary team anyway,

485
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,200
so that you've got psychologists, you've got social workers, you've

486
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,359
got medical professionals, all of those. Each diocese, each region

487
00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:16,759
has got one team associated with it and one person

488
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,640
is authorized and they eliminate everything that they can do

489
00:30:20,759 --> 00:30:23,079
on the scientific and the physical and the mental level.

490
00:30:24,039 --> 00:30:27,880
And if there's a decision at the very end that

491
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:33,759
says some of the phenomena here are really not able

492
00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:39,640
to be explained scientifically, then we might be looking at

493
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,920
a paranormal explanation for this. And that's only that that's

494
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,519
the last limit, that's the last step when an exoricism

495
00:30:45,559 --> 00:30:47,839
would take place at the person. But you can get

496
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,079
exorcism at plates as well, and you can have minor

497
00:30:51,119 --> 00:30:52,759
and major exorcisms of both.

498
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: So all of this minor and a major one.

499
00:30:58,119 --> 00:31:02,559
Speaker 1: We think of the difference between a minor illness and

500
00:31:02,559 --> 00:31:06,079
a major illness and how you treat them. Yeah, so

501
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,119
a major infestation of zermin as it were, and you

502
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,400
kind of can treat this as an infestation where you've

503
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,599
got a lot of spirits that have come in and

504
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,720
type taken the opportunity to take advantage of some of

505
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:25,359
somebody who's opened and vulnerable to this sort of stuff

506
00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:28,200
who's opened themselves up. I don't believe that they kind

507
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,519
of just go, oh, I'm going to walk through this

508
00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:32,480
place and suddenly I'm going to get possessed. I don't

509
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,720
think that happens at all. I think you have to

510
00:31:34,839 --> 00:31:36,960
open yourself up to this stuff to be able to

511
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,319
for a vector, So you have to you know, you're

512
00:31:40,359 --> 00:31:43,200
a tech surfaces have to be exposed for this stuff

513
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:43,640
to come in.

514
00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: Sort of ways would people opening up? I mean your visits,

515
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:48,720
a weed, you board? Are there any other way?

516
00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 5: Well?

517
00:31:49,119 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: Well, I mean if you intentionally try and open yourself

518
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,680
up to something possessing you in order to be able

519
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,559
to make contact, so you're giving your body over for

520
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,680
something else to come in. I would say that is

521
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,960
an open and open goal, as it were, because for me,

522
00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:09,880
I wouldn't leave my front door open with a big

523
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,400
sign saying all welcome on it, So that would be stupid.

524
00:32:13,559 --> 00:32:15,519
And then if it's that's if that's what I would

525
00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:18,640
do with people that I can physically see, why would

526
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,960
I not? You know, why would I do that for

527
00:32:21,039 --> 00:32:25,680
somebody or something that I can't physically see? M See

528
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,920
what I'm saying? Yeah, I agree with that. So so

529
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,000
stuff like that, I think a session as well. I'm

530
00:32:33,079 --> 00:32:36,240
I'm not just talking stamp collecting and that sort of malarkey,

531
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,240
but and and help, the obsession with something or someone

532
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,680
can open you up to be like magnet for something

533
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,559
to feed off that. So it can be an obsession

534
00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:54,000
for all sorts of stuff. But I'm in trouble. There

535
00:32:54,039 --> 00:32:55,279
we go.

536
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 4: But it's what I'm what I'm obsessed with is what

537
00:32:58,279 --> 00:32:59,240
we're talking about now.

538
00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: Well, I mean there's obsession, and there's obsession, and I

539
00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:08,079
mean an unhealthy obsession. There's an interesting hobby, yeah, and

540
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,720
you know, a hobby can get really really intense. But

541
00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:15,559
when when it's taking up all of your all of

542
00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:19,079
your time and it's degrading other parts of your life

543
00:33:19,559 --> 00:33:22,440
flourishing as a result, I would say that the big

544
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:28,359
border line on obsessiveness that is it's not healthy. And

545
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:34,000
I'm not saying all of that is has a spiritual origin,

546
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,160
but what I'm saying is it can open you up

547
00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:39,240
if it's certain obsession on certain things.

548
00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: You mentioned the archbishop being Yeah, Ryan Williams. I think

549
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,440
he's also a druid.

550
00:33:49,559 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's a fraternal druid. So he is Welsh.

551
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,240
He came from the Church of Wales. So the Druids

552
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,000
were holy people and they have the eyes dead for it,

553
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,480
and he is a druid in that sense. I'm a

554
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:04,240
member of OBOT.

555
00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think where I'm going with this and

556
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,199
what I'd ask him is how how does he balance

557
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,320
and manage his Christian views and their version of things?

558
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,360
And then the Druidic and the spiritualist.

559
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,599
Speaker 1: Esque, Well, Druidism is not a religion. Druidism is a

560
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:24,760
way of thinking and a way of approaching life. So

561
00:34:26,119 --> 00:34:32,079
you've got three types of druidry. You've got the druidry

562
00:34:32,119 --> 00:34:35,039
that's the ancient Druids, which we know very little about

563
00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:40,800
apart from Tacitus. We've got the fraternal Druids, which are

564
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,159
basically not religious. It's literally just things like the icetedvod

565
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,559
and we are holy people, you know of that level.

566
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,840
And then you've got modern neopaganistic druidry. So that's more

567
00:34:53,039 --> 00:34:56,400
to do with the umbrella of paganism with a capital P,

568
00:34:56,599 --> 00:35:00,960
not lowercase P from ancient paganists at times. So yeah,

569
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,559
he is, He's not a pagan druid. He's not an

570
00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:10,760
ancient druid. He is a paternal druid. Part of his group.

571
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,199
Sorry though, he's a cultural droid. That was it, the

572
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,639
cultural druids, the paternal druids and the pagan druids, and

573
00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:17,760
he is a cultural druid.

574
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,559
Speaker 4: H It was fascinating that the church I didn't notice

575
00:35:21,599 --> 00:35:25,400
actually that the church is now that is actually opening

576
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,159
up itself up to this kind of thing. I mean,

577
00:35:27,159 --> 00:35:30,519
the whole idea of exorcisms and things like this. I mean,

578
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,840
in the film, the Karen character, and the film actually

579
00:35:35,039 --> 00:35:39,159
advises Reagan's mother that he can't actually do this until

580
00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:43,920
he meets Maxwell Sidau's character, the Priest, because he says, well,

581
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,119
I'd have to take you back in four hundred years

582
00:35:46,119 --> 00:35:48,039
and a time machine to get this done. He says,

583
00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:50,840
because we don't do this sort of thing nowadays. That

584
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,599
I mean. I've noticed that the Muslim community has its

585
00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:57,360
own version because they believe very much in the Gin

586
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,719
and that they the ideas are possessioned by I noticed

587
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,320
because I was a hospital porter. I've known many Muslims.

588
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,639
I was a hospital porter for twenty three years, and

589
00:36:06,679 --> 00:36:09,719
they talk quite openly when you get when you usually

590
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,000
the hospital poring thing is like we tend to have

591
00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:17,440
very intimate discussions together. And while they do describe the

592
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,920
presence of the gin, which are not demons, I mean

593
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,079
they they're actually they're said to be existing in a

594
00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:26,280
parallel world made from smokelers fire that created along with

595
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,159
humans and things like this, and they're very often contained

596
00:36:29,159 --> 00:36:33,000
in some kind of container. In the of course, Aladdin

597
00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:35,639
is a lamb, but it can be it can be

598
00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:38,119
any It's usually a bottle of some kind, but they

599
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:42,360
can actually, under certain circumstances, possess and again there's there

600
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:48,039
are psychological and mental conditions and indeed sometimes physical conditions

601
00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:50,360
that can make you more susceptible to this. And Matt's

602
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,840
already mentioned obsession. It can also drug addiction and things

603
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,920
like this can also affect you, which and which could

604
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,639
be why many pubs are horned, because there are people

605
00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:08,480
under the influence of alcohol in those locations. And it's

606
00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:13,239
it fascinates me that there may be through through pressure

607
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,039
because I mean we mentioned earlier on about the people

608
00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:19,280
who went to spiritualism. Have Spiritualism says they filled a

609
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,599
hole which the church couldn't. But there must be many,

610
00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:26,039
many people who when they had these these contact experiences

611
00:37:26,039 --> 00:37:29,360
with spirit, would have just suppressed them for the sake

612
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,199
of going along to get along. I mean, I know it.

613
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,920
I know a young woman from Alabama, USA, and in

614
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,119
her community it's actually considered anti social not to go

615
00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:43,480
to church, and she goes to church, and I know

616
00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:45,400
that she has a lot of thoughts and feelings and

617
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,559
says a lot of things to me that she wouldn't

618
00:37:48,599 --> 00:37:50,920
say to her family or people are friends of people

619
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,039
around it. I mean, she's not a Christian believer. She's

620
00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:57,079
i'd say she's an agnostic, and she's says she a

621
00:37:57,079 --> 00:38:00,679
deist or agnostic, and she's quite skeptical a lot of things.

622
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,719
But there must be many counterpass to her, and especially

623
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:06,320
in the past.

624
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:15,559
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I now know several vicars that see

625
00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:20,400
the dead well interesting and one of them used to

626
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,599
be a paramedic, so he was first unseene and this

627
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,599
couple were needing their husband to be taken in to

628
00:38:28,639 --> 00:38:31,920
hospital and as they're getting ready, he said, well, what

629
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,920
a you're going to do about your son? And they went,

630
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,719
we haven't got a son at the top. He's at

631
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:43,079
the top of the stairs. And they went, but I've also,

632
00:38:43,119 --> 00:38:45,719
I mean I know one also another church vicar that

633
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:50,559
is able to ask for travel, which would completely freak

634
00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:53,480
out a lot of certain types of Christians. You think

635
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:54,000
it's will be.

636
00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: Molly when you're as a victor a traveling as a vicar.

637
00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:01,639
I'll just say this, they're not going to the national

638
00:39:01,639 --> 00:39:02,159
travel thing?

639
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:02,519
Speaker 1: Is that?

640
00:39:02,559 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 3: Back in we talked about the Archbishop of Canty back

641
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,000
in the nineteen thirties, and I can't remember the exact year.

642
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,519
There was Archbishop Cosmo Lang I think was the guy

643
00:39:11,639 --> 00:39:14,639
at Church of England one at the time. He actually

644
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,159
launched an investigation. He ordered an investigation. You would know

645
00:39:18,199 --> 00:39:20,000
about this, mat but I'll just tell the benefit of

646
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,079
the audience. He actually launched an investigation into spiritualism, wondering

647
00:39:24,159 --> 00:39:27,840
why it was gaining popularity, and this committee of six

648
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,400
or eight people I can't remember looked into it over

649
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,400
about three to four years or something like that, and

650
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,360
they actually sort of I think they came out in

651
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,760
favor of basically extending the hand of friendship so to

652
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,639
speak too spiritualists and saying that we could probably work

653
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,880
with them under certain conditions and they've perhaps got something

654
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,320
there that we should kind of look at seriously, but

655
00:39:54,519 --> 00:39:59,000
he suppressed the report for about fifty odd years. And yeah,

656
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,360
I mean, yeah, I was gonna say, but there's another

657
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,320
end to that piece is that he actually came through

658
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,960
if you believe it. Of course, the mediumship of a

659
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,360
guy called Leslie Flint who was a direct voice media

660
00:40:14,559 --> 00:40:18,199
and he, along with many other people, over a period

661
00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:22,199
of like thirty years, basically came through this ectoplasmic voice

662
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,519
box to talk about life on the other side, as

663
00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:28,840
it were. And the original report that was suppressed by

664
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,239
him eventually made its way to Psychic News newspaper or

665
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,840
magazine and they published it some years later, and that's

666
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,079
how it's become known today. But aside from that, I

667
00:40:41,079 --> 00:40:42,599
was just interested. I was gonna ask a question, but

668
00:40:42,639 --> 00:40:44,639
obviously come back to me on whatever. But I was

669
00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:47,000
just really curious about the vicar that Astral travels and

670
00:40:47,079 --> 00:40:49,360
what kind of things does he see over there.

671
00:40:49,639 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: Well, he saw as recently past dog for one thing.

672
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,719
That was the conversation that opened up for it. I

673
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,159
don't know much about anything else that he's seen, but

674
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,039
I know that when we were talking about it, just

675
00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:03,400
lost his dog. He said, I was able to visit

676
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,840
my dog on the other side. Wow. So yeah, in

677
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,000
terms of the Spiritualism Report, that took about three years

678
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,159
to create. It was commissioned November thirty sixth but it

679
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:20,280
was put in to the sort of the Big Bishop's

680
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,880
Council as it were, for nineteen thirty nine. But the

681
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,360
problem is it wasn't suppressed so much. There was a

682
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,280
bit of suppression because what happened was the report split

683
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,920
into two. There was a major report and the minority report.

684
00:41:35,199 --> 00:41:37,800
One of the people that was involved in it originally

685
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,079
was a person called the Evil in Underhill, who is

686
00:41:40,639 --> 00:41:44,719
quite a famous Anglican Christian mystic. She started off on

687
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,719
the report and then pulled out afterwards saying that people

688
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:53,800
were just too gullible with certain things. But incidentally, Evelin

689
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,639
Underhill was a good friend of Tolkien and we reckon that.

690
00:41:56,679 --> 00:41:59,199
It's probably the reason why mister Underhill is called mister

691
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,599
Underhill for the throw Baggins because of easily and Underhill. Yeah.

692
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,639
But anyway, but it wasn't so much suppressed as what

693
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,559
happened is World War II came along and they've got

694
00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:12,800
bigger fish to fry at that point. But then it

695
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:18,000
was kind of like slowly buried and left and other

696
00:42:18,039 --> 00:42:22,800
stuff came and it took about forty years. But then

697
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,000
they allowed the full text to be published in the

698
00:42:25,079 --> 00:42:27,639
Christian Parapsychologist Journal, which I had just happened to be

699
00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:31,800
the editor for back in June to nineteen seventy nine.

700
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,960
So they reprinted the report, but they reprinted both reports

701
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,360
because only one report was leaked, the major report, the minority. Sorry,

702
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,840
the Minority report was leaked. The major report wasn't leaked.

703
00:42:46,639 --> 00:42:52,360
So the bit that the psychic magazine I think like

704
00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:56,360
news only got part of the report. They didn't get

705
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,960
the major report side of things. So as a result

706
00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:02,719
of that, what we did is we brought together both

707
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,320
reports with a foreword talking about the origin as well.

708
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,360
And I mean you can get that off the church's

709
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,880
fellowship website. It's it's available, and I did all of

710
00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:17,280
the type setting and the printing for it. Yeah, that

711
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,360
was another of my lockdown.

712
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 4: Projects to be good for something.

713
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: It's a blessing. It was absolute blessing.

714
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 4: You see Richard Dawkins run something he calls the Clergy Project,

715
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,960
which because he apparently has met many vicars who, when

716
00:43:33,679 --> 00:43:36,320
speaking privately, will say, look, I don't really believe this anymore.

717
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:42,159
But it's my job now. They go through the motion

718
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:49,920
of being the priesthood without actually having any real faith. However, yes, exactly,

719
00:43:50,039 --> 00:43:53,559
get the vicarage and exactly. And but you know, Dawkins

720
00:43:53,639 --> 00:43:55,800
is very in his usual sort of like very narrow

721
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,320
minded way. He's he's very clear that he wouldn't He's

722
00:44:00,679 --> 00:44:02,880
this is a very binary thing for him. He's dealing

723
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:08,480
with priests who have become athomterialists, not priests who astral travel.

724
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,559
I think his I think.

725
00:44:12,199 --> 00:44:12,639
Speaker 1: Reject there.

726
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, he would reject priests who's who believe in ghosts

727
00:44:15,519 --> 00:44:18,920
and actual travel. But yeah, it's it's a sign though

728
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,599
that there is this corner. There's this kind of like

729
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,360
facade that goes on in religion these days. And whenever

730
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,320
religion you're talking about has an orthodoxy, and outside that

731
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,519
there is and even within it there's a there is

732
00:44:32,559 --> 00:44:35,519
a dart. There is like a shadow of individuals who

733
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,559
operate very much outside that. And it probably has always

734
00:44:38,599 --> 00:44:40,840
been the case. And there's always been cunning folk in

735
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,559
every community, even even during the time the witch hunts

736
00:44:43,559 --> 00:44:44,039
and things like that.

737
00:44:44,079 --> 00:44:45,639
Speaker 1: I mean, they would.

738
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,199
Speaker 4: Be every village would have a person like this. It

739
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,280
was someone who lived on the periphery of the community,

740
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:56,039
usually elderly, usually female, who would be liked by the

741
00:44:56,039 --> 00:44:59,920
community but not accepted, and people go to her for healing,

742
00:45:00,679 --> 00:45:03,360
for advice, and for divination and for fortune telling and

743
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,199
things like this. This is where, of course, the idea

744
00:45:05,199 --> 00:45:07,840
of witches comes from, which which simply comes from wicker,

745
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,320
which is an Old English word for a wise woman.

746
00:45:11,639 --> 00:45:14,559
Nothing to do with with the neopagan wicker as such,

747
00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:16,159
although it was inspired very much.

748
00:45:16,199 --> 00:45:16,519
Speaker 1: Point that.

749
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 4: So we're dealing with an undervalue that's always already always existed.

750
00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:24,519
There's always existed in our culture, with our society. Every

751
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,400
every country must have this at some point. It is

752
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,679
in some part of their life. So it's a really

753
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,400
interesting subject, it really really is.

754
00:45:34,079 --> 00:45:38,199
Speaker 1: I mean, I was researching for my book was Ancient Witchcraft,

755
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,800
so ancient magic. So you know, I've been doing a

756
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:47,119
ton of reading some really interesting materials, including Acadian stuff

757
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,840
on how to summon the dead. Thank you Evan Thinkle

758
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:52,280
for that.

759
00:45:52,199 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 3: One, right, I'll think of that note being to say, Neil,

760
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,880
I wonder what caused the priests and the vickers to

761
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:02,159
doubt their faith or was it?

762
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,199
Speaker 2: Was it a sudden thing was it a gradual thing

763
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,159
or wonder what was going on there? And wortter, how

764
00:46:08,199 --> 00:46:10,920
many out there actually don't believe what they're doing and

765
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,039
have a crisis of conscience?

766
00:46:12,039 --> 00:46:12,679
Speaker 1: You know, How can.

767
00:46:12,559 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 2: I purport all of these beliefs, you know, in my

768
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,119
congregation and not believe it myself?

769
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:18,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is a guy.

770
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 3: I read his book some years ago, that he wrote

771
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,440
a book. He plays a piano. He's an American. He

772
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,559
used to be evangelical guy, but he plays a piano.

773
00:46:24,679 --> 00:46:27,199
He used to write religious songs and things like that,

774
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,159
but all the time he was having doubts and things,

775
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:31,320
and now he's an absolute skeptic on the side of

776
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:38,559
the debates with these American religious people and stuff on

777
00:46:38,559 --> 00:46:41,360
the platform. I forget his name now. So it's very

778
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,679
interesting to see those debates, right, I think we better

779
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,800
have a break here on the Paranormal Peep Show, we've

780
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:48,679
been changed just over an hour and out. We're talking

781
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,679
to Matt Arnold about ghosts and goodies and the Christian Faith,

782
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:54,920
which would be covering more of in part two. So

783
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,719
stay tuned for the Paranormal Peep Show on the Paranormal

784
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:04,599
UK Radio Network. The Day's the best day made life

785
00:47:05,599 --> 00:47:09,119
listening to the parent Normal UK Readio network.

786
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,519
Speaker 6: Join Andrew o'leil every month on the Paranoral peep Show,

787
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,880
part of the Paranoral UK Radio Network, for fun that

788
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:22,000
frolics and lots of information about weird stuff, UFOs, ghosts

789
00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:23,840
and things that go bump in the night and everything

790
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:28,000
associated with them. Fascinating guests, fascinating talk, fascinating information.

791
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 3: Hi, welcome back to the Paranormal Peep Show on the

792
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,039
Paranormal UK Radio Network. We're out on YouTube and also

793
00:47:38,199 --> 00:47:41,000
speaker on the Paranormal UK Radio Network and you can

794
00:47:41,039 --> 00:47:43,239
also listen to us on the website there as well.

795
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,480
Now we've been discussing all sorts of things that in

796
00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:51,000
Part one, from ghosts, haunting houses and Christians and that

797
00:47:51,079 --> 00:47:52,880
kind of stuff, and we're still on that subject. We're

798
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,079
going to expand into that area a little bit and

799
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,159
I thought I'll just plug my book here for anyone

800
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,840
that's interested. This is true Tales of the Paranormal, published

801
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,760
in October this year, twenty twenty four. And I wrote

802
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,199
this initially at the beginning of Lockdown, but it was

803
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,000
kind of a ten year kind of story and that

804
00:48:08,039 --> 00:48:10,760
happening really so lockdown provided the excuse for me to

805
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,719
actually put pen to paper, as it were. And Matt,

806
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,320
we were just talking in the break there about your

807
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:16,800
own book that you've been writing.

808
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: You said it was actually part of a the longer project. Yeah,

809
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,039
so I'm just going to bring up mine as well,

810
00:48:25,679 --> 00:48:29,719
the invisible dimension spirit Being's ghost in the Afterlife. Yeah.

811
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,079
So this was a project that came out of my

812
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,880
master's thesis, which was at a Methodist college funnily enough

813
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:44,800
in Derbyshire call Cliff College, and my MA tutor time

814
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:50,199
fairly evangelical guy. He looked at my proposal, looked at

815
00:48:50,199 --> 00:48:52,920
my chapter headings and went, well, it's either going to

816
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,239
be a first or a fail Matt. So I thought, right, okay,

817
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:03,000
your challenge accepted. So that was back in probably January

818
00:49:03,079 --> 00:49:06,920
twenty nineteen when I gave him the chapter headings and

819
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,880
that we had that conversation and I had to submit

820
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:14,199
it in September twenty nineteen. So there was a lot

821
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,119
of work went into that and I ended up with

822
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,679
eighty two percent, which got me a distinction overall, and

823
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,880
it did college because of the high nature of the mark,

824
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:30,440
they actually awarded the first ever master's dissertation prize, so

825
00:49:30,519 --> 00:49:36,000
I collected that, thank you very much, don't and then,

826
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,800
having been made redundant from the Church of England in

827
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,920
August twenty nineteen, I was in a bit of a limbo.

828
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 4: I took it.

829
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,599
Speaker 1: I took the month out in September to finish off

830
00:49:46,599 --> 00:49:52,719
the dissertation. Then October came along and I ended up

831
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,039
going into supply teaching, which I am still a supply teacher.

832
00:49:56,079 --> 00:50:00,239
I am a physics teacher by background. But and then

833
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,719
lockdown hit in March twenty twenty and I got all

834
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:05,920
this time on my hands, and so I thought, well,

835
00:50:06,039 --> 00:50:08,960
what can I do with this time? I've been blessed

836
00:50:09,039 --> 00:50:14,360
with excellent weather and I'm getting paid for sitting at home.

837
00:50:14,679 --> 00:50:16,599
I can't do a lot else. What do I do?

838
00:50:17,599 --> 00:50:21,400
So I thought, well, I really enjoyed doing the master's

839
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,599
research for this and it would be a shame to

840
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,960
just let that go, especially when it was eighty two percent.

841
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,519
They said roughly, if it's eighty percent or above this thing,

842
00:50:31,639 --> 00:50:33,599
you need to sort of look at doing a book

843
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:42,280
about So I started my website ghost Schools and Good

844
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,119
dot co dot uk, which was a series of articles

845
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,480
on looking at the paranormal in the Bible, in the

846
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:55,880
Biblical texts, and taking it back to basics approach, what

847
00:50:56,039 --> 00:50:59,519
did the original writers mean when they wrote the words

848
00:50:59,559 --> 00:51:04,519
not does a post Reformation fifteen hundred years after sort

849
00:51:04,559 --> 00:51:09,079
of that that Jesus was around. What did the original

850
00:51:09,079 --> 00:51:12,719
writers mean by the words that they used for ghost

851
00:51:13,039 --> 00:51:16,000
And there's different words for ghosts and spirits in the Bible.

852
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:22,000
And then the research went further with some a couple

853
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,639
of instances of even C. S. Lewis of Narnia fame,

854
00:51:26,639 --> 00:51:32,480
he had himself in visitation by his wife his departing

855
00:51:32,559 --> 00:51:37,519
by joy and he's a Christian. And then a Bible

856
00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:42,599
translator called JB. Phillips had the visitation twice from C. S.

857
00:51:42,679 --> 00:51:47,320
Lewis after he passed away within a few weeks, encouraging

858
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,480
him to carry on with his Bible translation. Now this

859
00:51:49,519 --> 00:51:51,519
is before the internet, so this is before sort of

860
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:57,880
people could swap store his dead quick And also one

861
00:51:58,119 --> 00:52:02,199
on the Epworth Rectory pult geist, as we said previously,

862
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:08,760
and one on the exorcism of Gottally bindittas by this

863
00:52:09,039 --> 00:52:14,000
nineteenth century Luther and pastor called Johann Blumhart who really

864
00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:17,800
his story inspired me to research this stuff because he

865
00:52:18,599 --> 00:52:24,199
deals with spirits not as evil demons, but as people.

866
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,880
He discovers that some of these people are possessing one

867
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,800
of his parishioners, and of course there are non human

868
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:33,960
spirits as well involved, but there are a lot of

869
00:52:34,039 --> 00:52:36,519
human spirits, and the way he deals with them, well,

870
00:52:36,519 --> 00:52:38,360
he tries to send I mean, he does send one

871
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,599
to his church so she can listen to his sermons,

872
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:46,239
which is a bit of a noble am broach. He

873
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:51,400
sends them to go in the garden, and he takes

874
00:52:51,679 --> 00:52:55,800
my more pastoral approach with those that are possessing because

875
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,239
he sees them as actually being under influence of something

876
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:04,079
that is more and nefarious and non human, which he

877
00:53:04,119 --> 00:53:07,559
also eventually manages to get out of this girl. So

878
00:53:07,639 --> 00:53:11,000
I did all of that research, put it online, carried

879
00:53:11,039 --> 00:53:13,920
on developing other bits and pieces, and then I was

880
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,840
having a walk through fountains Abbi in I think it's

881
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:23,639
North Yorkshire and was chatting away with this guy, this

882
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:28,559
American couple who'd come over and he was an author,

883
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,360
and he got loads of questions about the afterlife from

884
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,920
a Christian perspective because he's a Christian. And I was

885
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,840
able to sort of like answer them and give him

886
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,599
sensible answers, not kneeja or its whole demons or things

887
00:53:43,679 --> 00:53:45,920
like that that he'd been used to. And he said, man,

888
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:47,920
you need to put this into a book. I'll have

889
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,719
a word with my publisher. So he did it and

890
00:53:51,159 --> 00:53:55,199
contract came along and eighteen months after that the book

891
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,760
was handed over. Sorry, I handed the book over and

892
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,480
it took eighteen months of editing and then it was

893
00:54:04,519 --> 00:54:09,880
released in March this year. I think so. Yeah, so

894
00:54:10,039 --> 00:54:12,960
the Invisible Dimension, great book. Brilliantly.

895
00:54:13,199 --> 00:54:16,119
Speaker 2: You mentioned you worked with the Church of England. I

896
00:54:16,119 --> 00:54:19,199
think I missed that bit, or maybe didn't. It might

897
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:20,920
not have covered it. What was your role within the

898
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:21,639
Church of England.

899
00:54:21,679 --> 00:54:24,519
Speaker 1: I was on called a lay pioneer minister, so I

900
00:54:24,559 --> 00:54:27,840
didn't have a collar. I didn't go to theological college

901
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,000
to train to be a vicar or anything like that.

902
00:54:31,039 --> 00:54:33,719
What happened was that I used to do something called

903
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,719
Forest Church, which was, I think the best way to

904
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:44,000
describe it is a pagan style in Christ centered church

905
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,719
that met in the woods. Sounds good, celebrated the wheel

906
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,079
of the year when we would have lots of pagans

907
00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:53,440
coming along as well as Christians, and it was it

908
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:58,159
was a a new style of church that we were

909
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,440
It was an experimental thing that we're trying. And they said, right, well,

910
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,079
we want to headhunt you. We'll bring you in, put

911
00:55:04,159 --> 00:55:06,360
you in an next mining village and see what you

912
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,840
can come up with. So I'm in an next mining

913
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,960
village in Nottinghamshire as a lay pioneer minister. And what

914
00:55:13,039 --> 00:55:16,559
we ended up coming up with because of the listening process.

915
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,000
Rather than doing a top down approach, which is what

916
00:55:19,119 --> 00:55:21,719
most churches do, I was doing a bottom up approach.

917
00:55:22,559 --> 00:55:26,800
Where is God already a work in your community? Rather

918
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,679
than I'm bringing God to you, I'm oh, I think

919
00:55:29,679 --> 00:55:33,920
God's already there because I believe God's in everybody. So

920
00:55:34,679 --> 00:55:37,440
how is he manifesting? How is God manifesting in your

921
00:55:37,519 --> 00:55:42,280
life in the things that you do? And we discerned that.

922
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:49,679
We discerned that the factors that were controlling the village

923
00:55:50,119 --> 00:55:57,599
were oppression, division and worthlessness. These are the main things

924
00:55:57,599 --> 00:56:00,719
that were controlling the dynamics within the village. So we

925
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,559
worked in opposition completely to that. We wanted to give

926
00:56:04,599 --> 00:56:07,639
people worth, we wanted to bring people together, we wanted

927
00:56:07,679 --> 00:56:11,239
to make them not oppressed but rise up and be

928
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,719
able to take control of things themselves. And so we

929
00:56:15,159 --> 00:56:18,960
ended up created something called pleasantly Community Orchard. So we

930
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,199
took a third of an acre of dog toilets with

931
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,280
one wall that the kids could kick a ball at,

932
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,880
and that was what you've got kids, Wow. And we

933
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:32,880
turned it into a fully working orchard with seventy odd trees,

934
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:37,440
a big outdoor classroom. We had wassailing in there where

935
00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:41,000
people were told how we showed people to bless the

936
00:56:41,079 --> 00:56:44,119
land and how the land would bless them in return.

937
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:49,760
We had carols singing with the kids making willow lanterns

938
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,760
that would come down into the orchard from their school

939
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:57,880
that sing carols the houses. We did Apple Day where

940
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:01,800
the kids would bring apples. The mums had chopped them up,

941
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,159
the mums and the mans had choped them up, the

942
00:57:03,199 --> 00:57:05,840
kids had mash them up, and then the dads would

943
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,519
and the granddads would twist the stuff around and it

944
00:57:08,519 --> 00:57:14,920
would create a community. And yeah, it was fantastic. Makee

945
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,760
ball dancing. I went and learned how to do it

946
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:19,960
and then taught the kids at school and then we

947
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,559
had the lads and dads and the mums all joining

948
00:57:22,599 --> 00:57:25,599
in it. Was great fun. So yeah, I was not

949
00:57:25,639 --> 00:57:28,039
what I was doing. I was actually in the community,

950
00:57:28,679 --> 00:57:32,000
bringing the community, bringing the God's flavors out, the things

951
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,639
that are already good in the community, enhancing them. That

952
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:35,719
was my philosophy.

953
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 2: And this was like I don't know if this is

954
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,760
the right word, either ordained or given permission to buy

955
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,039
the Church of England, given permission to the Church of

956
00:57:43,719 --> 00:57:46,960
just So my question would be given there because that's

957
00:57:47,039 --> 00:57:50,239
very kind of like open and free and liberal and

958
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,800
almost kind of like nature loving. Did you clash with

959
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,920
anybody within the CV in terms of how you present

960
00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:58,840
this and what you're doing.

961
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: Of course, not everybody loved it, but I thought it

962
00:58:02,039 --> 00:58:03,440
was fantastic, you know, I mean.

963
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 2: Really, I no, I thought there might be some old

964
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,199
school traditionalist like, no, we don't do that kind of thing.

965
00:58:08,199 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: It's good. I just called the Pagan Vicar. It's kind

966
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:14,719
of like one of the one of the big cheeses

967
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,679
in the in the Deanery, which is a group of

968
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,280
churches in the area. So I was called the Pagan Vicar,

969
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,280
which I thought was interesting because I wasn't a pagan

970
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:22,559
and I wasn't a vicar.

971
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,039
Speaker 2: I mean, my my background I'm into the psychic and

972
00:58:28,079 --> 00:58:33,400
mediumship side of things, and my philosophy is akin to spiritualism,

973
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,119
but I wouldn't tack my colors onto spiritualism.

974
00:58:36,159 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: But that's kind of what I said. That's exactly what

975
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:40,519
I said to my.

976
00:58:40,559 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 2: Earlier Yeah, I'm kind of like the closest thing I

977
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,800
would find would be kind of spiritualism as into what

978
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:50,000
I meant. So most I don't know about most, but

979
00:58:50,079 --> 00:58:52,840
a lot of people on the Christian side, or the

980
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,199
Church of England side, or certainly the Catholic side would

981
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,960
view what I'm doing as either working with the devil

982
00:58:59,119 --> 00:59:01,559
or working with demons, and blah blah blah. Now I

983
00:59:01,599 --> 00:59:03,679
I think there's both. I think there's all. I think

984
00:59:03,679 --> 00:59:07,639
there's angels, there's God, there's there's demons. There's humans as well.

985
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,239
And I don't like it when everyone's all love and

986
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,599
light and it's all fluffy and angels and all like that.

987
00:59:13,719 --> 00:59:15,199
But I also don't like it when you get the

988
00:59:15,199 --> 00:59:17,760
ghost hunting shows it's all demons and it's all dark.

989
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,320
It's not, it's it's layers of different things going up.

990
00:59:22,239 --> 00:59:26,000
So what what would you say that the Bible says

991
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,400
in terms of working with spirits and what spirits are

992
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:33,320
and what's out there, And that's this huge question you

993
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:33,840
want to do.

994
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 1: You want me to go, Matthew Hopkins suffer because I'm

995
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:43,960
not going to do that. So it gives you have

996
00:59:44,039 --> 00:59:46,840
to know the context of what various words mean in

997
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,039
order to be able to understand what is forbidden. The

998
00:59:50,119 --> 00:59:54,320
first thing they would say, though, is you wouldn't forbid

999
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:59,159
something that's not possible to do. Right, Okay, yeah, I

1000
00:59:59,159 --> 01:00:02,559
get God wouldn't forbid us walking one hundred foot in

1001
01:00:02,559 --> 01:00:05,840
the air if it wasn't possible to do. We can't

1002
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:07,639
do it, so God doesn't forbid it. I mean the

1003
01:00:07,719 --> 01:00:09,360
laws of them for gravity will get you down there,

1004
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:13,519
but that one anyway, so you've got you've got the

1005
01:00:14,039 --> 01:00:19,039
In the ancient times, at the time that these laws

1006
01:00:19,079 --> 01:00:22,840
were being developed about things like communication with the dead,

1007
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:27,400
the idea of the Israelites was we are to only

1008
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:32,280
look to Yahweh our God as being the one that

1009
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:38,800
we have knowledge about the future. Necromancy is what's forbidden

1010
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,920
in the Bible, rather than just talking to the dead,

1011
01:00:43,599 --> 01:00:50,280
so deliberate summoning up of the dead via spirit possession. Right,

1012
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:55,960
So you basically what you've got, And the biggest example

1013
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,559
of this is a whole chapter dedicated to it called

1014
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,480
one Samuel chap to twenty eight, which is Saul and

1015
01:01:01,599 --> 01:01:06,400
the often called Witch of end Or. But she wasn't

1016
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:08,559
a witch as such, not in the modern day meaning

1017
01:01:08,599 --> 01:01:13,719
of the word witch anyway. She was in the In

1018
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:17,400
the Hebrew, it's barlett ei chef o, which is a

1019
01:01:17,719 --> 01:01:21,760
listress of the ov. The ove is a ghost. So

1020
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:24,639
oh biddy with a little b o has got a

1021
01:01:24,679 --> 01:01:29,719
little circumflex on it. It's an it's an ancestral spirit.

1022
01:01:30,119 --> 01:01:34,360
If you look at the academic materials. A brilliant book

1023
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,039
is the Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible.

1024
01:01:37,199 --> 01:01:40,960
It's nearly a thousand pages thick, and it is not

1025
01:01:41,079 --> 01:01:45,800
Llewellen publishing. It is It's brill publishing, and brill are

1026
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,639
in the academics type you know of this stuff. So

1027
01:01:49,679 --> 01:01:52,360
it's a load of academic material on it. So what

1028
01:01:52,519 --> 01:01:56,119
was being forbidden was having a spirit enter you, a

1029
01:01:56,199 --> 01:01:58,760
spirit of the dead. Now, the reason why is because

1030
01:01:59,039 --> 01:02:03,800
ritually the dead, anything to do with the dead would

1031
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:07,559
make you unclean, and being unclean meant you couldn't do

1032
01:02:07,639 --> 01:02:10,920
the sacrifices and the various bits and pieces at the temple,

1033
01:02:11,519 --> 01:02:13,960
you weren't allowed to go in. So by having some

1034
01:02:14,119 --> 01:02:16,039
spirit within you, you wouldn't be able to be part

1035
01:02:16,119 --> 01:02:22,119
of the national religion that was taking place, so you

1036
01:02:22,119 --> 01:02:25,480
would be cast out. Plus also it was seen as

1037
01:02:25,519 --> 01:02:29,480
again you've got the archetypal which type stuff, black magic

1038
01:02:29,519 --> 01:02:31,599
and all that sort of It was seen as deviant

1039
01:02:32,159 --> 01:02:35,559
at the time. So there's a lot of polemic against

1040
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:40,880
talking necromancy, and that's and the reasons why is because

1041
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,000
you know, we've got one spirit within us, which is ours,

1042
01:02:44,519 --> 01:02:46,760
and having another one in there at the same time

1043
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,119
can cause mental issues for one thing, and we've seen

1044
01:02:50,639 --> 01:02:53,800
we see that where we've got a guy called the

1045
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:58,719
Demoniac in Book of Mark chapter five, where you've got

1046
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:04,079
the Legion, which is the band of spirits that are

1047
01:03:04,119 --> 01:03:06,719
called Legion. It has a mouth piece as it were,

1048
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:11,800
that's called Legion. Appears in lots of modern literature, including

1049
01:03:12,599 --> 01:03:14,719
Red Dwarf has an episodial Legion in it.

1050
01:03:15,119 --> 01:03:16,719
Speaker 2: I was just going to say, because you mentioned that

1051
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:18,639
the over of end Or is an end Or the

1052
01:03:18,639 --> 01:03:20,559
ewalk planet, it.

1053
01:03:20,599 --> 01:03:25,639
Speaker 1: Certainly is, yes, a different kind of different planet, and

1054
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:28,119
that one's a long long time ago in the galaxy

1055
01:03:28,159 --> 01:03:33,559
far far away. But this, this end or is we

1056
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,280
know where Endoor is in the Middle East now, and

1057
01:03:37,519 --> 01:03:41,000
there's a well. There's a well there. And if you

1058
01:03:41,039 --> 01:03:44,559
put yourself in the mindset of an ancient the mountains

1059
01:03:44,599 --> 01:03:48,000
were where the gods live, you couldn't climb. I mean

1060
01:03:48,039 --> 01:03:50,519
we're took not talking like ben Nevis or something like that.

1061
01:03:50,559 --> 01:03:54,960
We're talking ten thousand foot and plus mountains, very rarefied there.

1062
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:58,199
The gods lived in the mountains, humans lived on this

1063
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:04,320
Middle Earth. Tolkien didn't invent this. And then the valleys

1064
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:09,639
were seen as the opposite to the entrances, the cave's

1065
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:14,320
entrances to the underworld. And so you've got well as

1066
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:17,800
well that is also seen going down into the ground.

1067
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:20,039
It would have been seen as an entrance to the underworld.

1068
01:04:20,079 --> 01:04:22,920
So we think we know where this woman was residing,

1069
01:04:23,119 --> 01:04:26,039
and basically she would have used her as ancestral spirit

1070
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:30,440
to go down into the underworld to collect the spirit

1071
01:04:30,519 --> 01:04:32,360
of the person that you were supposed to be trying

1072
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,239
to contact, and then the two would come up together

1073
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:39,239
as you would do the dialogue. We kind of have

1074
01:04:39,599 --> 01:04:43,039
a similar idea of what we've got an idea of

1075
01:04:43,119 --> 01:04:49,039
what she did from an Akkadian tablet that talks about

1076
01:04:49,159 --> 01:04:53,920
using Shamesh, which is the Samaria. One of the Samerian

1077
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:58,079
gods is the big cheese god, and he would be

1078
01:04:58,119 --> 01:05:01,599
the one that would be able to to facilitate the

1079
01:05:01,639 --> 01:05:05,800
whole affair of going down bringing up the dead again.

1080
01:05:07,159 --> 01:05:12,000
And she was using psychotropic materials, so you'd make her self.

1081
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,000
You put it on your eyelids and you would be

1082
01:05:15,079 --> 01:05:18,119
able to see into the other realm. And that's how

1083
01:05:18,119 --> 01:05:20,679
they were using. That's another way of being able to

1084
01:05:21,159 --> 01:05:22,719
enhance their psychic vision as well.

1085
01:05:24,119 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 2: So they're not actually saying that you can't speak to

1086
01:05:27,039 --> 01:05:28,880
the dead, They're just saying that you can't allow them

1087
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:30,360
to possess with the axe.

1088
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: It's more about possessing, and it's more about initiating deliberate

1089
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:38,679
contact to know about the future. Right, that's the specifics

1090
01:05:38,719 --> 01:05:43,119
of it. It would be wrong, it would be hypocritical

1091
01:05:43,159 --> 01:05:47,679
because Jesus in Matthew seventeen speaks to the deceased Moses

1092
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:53,320
and the amount of transfiguration. So Jesus talks to the

1093
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:55,480
dead when he talks to a little girl who's died

1094
01:05:55,559 --> 01:05:58,320
and then raises her back to life again. And the

1095
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,159
various places in the I will wear talking to the

1096
01:06:01,199 --> 01:06:04,800
dead and bringing them back to life occurs. So you know,

1097
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:08,480
talking to the dead is a thing. But it's about

1098
01:06:08,519 --> 01:06:12,360
testing this, not just accepting anything that comes through to you.

1099
01:06:13,199 --> 01:06:17,239
It's about what is coming through. Is it true to

1100
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:22,199
what we know? And does it increase in us those

1101
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,960
freaks of the spirit that we talked about, and or

1102
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:27,800
does it sort of like lead me more on a

1103
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:31,840
path of dependency on a particular person for more information,

1104
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:35,880
And of course we've seen that that happens in more

1105
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:44,960
I'm going to be uncharitable Charlatan type mediumship. You're on

1106
01:06:45,039 --> 01:06:47,880
the if you understand what I mean. There are genuine

1107
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:53,760
mediums and there are Charlatans, And I would say, just

1108
01:06:54,239 --> 01:06:56,920
where is your dependency coming on? If you've found peace

1109
01:06:57,159 --> 01:07:00,239
and then you don't need to keep going back. There's

1110
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:02,480
a different thing too. I need to keep going back.

1111
01:07:02,519 --> 01:07:03,599
I need to keep going back.

1112
01:07:03,559 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 2: More and more and more interesting. Yeah, I would agree

1113
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:10,119
with the discernment thing as well. I would very much

1114
01:07:10,199 --> 01:07:13,159
advise people against just opening with the door. Just allowing

1115
01:07:13,199 --> 01:07:17,800
anything in discernment is absolutely key. What's really interesting when

1116
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:19,320
you when you talk about kind of looking at the

1117
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,559
different words and and the meanings of them. Have you

1118
01:07:22,599 --> 01:07:24,280
have you heard of Jordan Maxwell in your way? Of

1119
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:28,280
Jordan Maxwell's work, he's very He's very into kind of

1120
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:33,960
like the the Ancients and depictions and things of of

1121
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:38,159
kind of how how the ancients view spirituality and Christianity.

1122
01:07:38,559 --> 01:07:42,760
He basically says that the original Hebrew word for God

1123
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:48,119
was actually the guards, which is really interesting. Plural the

1124
01:07:48,199 --> 01:07:55,159
guards possibly possibly, I don't know. I don't speak Hebrew,

1125
01:07:55,239 --> 01:07:57,679
I don't quite know. But he seemed to think that

1126
01:07:58,039 --> 01:08:00,280
over time it's been changed, and it's been kind of

1127
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,719
the language has been changed, and he's basically saying the

1128
01:08:04,199 --> 01:08:08,719
Guards created mankind plural is interesting.

1129
01:08:09,559 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, what do you do? I was gonna say, sorry,

1130
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:14,920
just to sort of touch in on there.

1131
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:21,239
Speaker 3: And it does talk about in Genesis God says we

1132
01:08:21,319 --> 01:08:23,600
shall create mankind in our own image.

1133
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a plural, there isn't it all him? The

1134
01:08:27,199 --> 01:08:28,680
im bit is plural.

1135
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:32,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, because Jordan Maxwell that he didn't just kind of

1136
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,720
come to this lf out of nowhere. Jordan Maxwell, he's

1137
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,520
passed on now, bless him, but he spoke a lot

1138
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:42,199
of rabbis, and he spoke to them kind of behind

1139
01:08:42,239 --> 01:08:45,680
closed doors when they're away from their synagogues, and he said, what,

1140
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:47,399
what do you really believe? What do you think is

1141
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:50,399
really going on? And they opened up to him and

1142
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:53,720
they had dialogue and a conversation, and it turns out

1143
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:57,439
that what they really meant in the very very first

1144
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:01,960
editions of the Old Testament was the gods or the gods?

1145
01:09:02,119 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 1: And I think with the gods, I go with not

1146
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:05,800
the gods.

1147
01:09:06,119 --> 01:09:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he seemed to think the gods, but it could

1148
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:13,359
be either. So why have we got this plural the different?

1149
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 1: Yeah? So, so what you've got within in within the

1150
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:21,600
biblical text if you look at Psalm eighty two, it

1151
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:23,479
actually if you look at the Hebrew, and you could

1152
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:27,239
do this on Bible pub So biblehub dot com has

1153
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:29,640
an interlinear so you can see the English and you

1154
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:32,479
can see the Hebrew or the Greek if you go

1155
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,600
for the New Testament, and you'll see in there Elohim

1156
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:39,960
takes his seat amongst the ylo Him. So you've got

1157
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:44,279
there Elohim being used twice. One is used for the

1158
01:09:44,359 --> 01:09:48,039
uncreated Elohim and one is used for the created elo Him.

1159
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:51,039
Then what what we've got to understand is the word

1160
01:09:51,079 --> 01:09:56,239
Elohim doesn't actually just refer to one being. It's it's

1161
01:09:56,319 --> 01:10:01,319
basically the Hebrew for spirits. I mean, you've got rhuak

1162
01:10:01,399 --> 01:10:04,960
as well, which is another word for spirit, but elo

1163
01:10:05,079 --> 01:10:08,600
him is like an umbrella term for spirits. Now you

1164
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:11,600
have one in the In the Judeo Christian, you've got

1165
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:13,359
one uncreated.

1166
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:18,079
Speaker 7: Elohim, and we normally put that with a capitally, and

1167
01:10:18,119 --> 01:10:22,680
then you have created Elohim, which are with a lower case,

1168
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:27,920
and those little lowercase elohim as is God's.

1169
01:10:29,399 --> 01:10:32,199
Speaker 1: So you've got God taking his seat amongst the gods.

1170
01:10:32,239 --> 01:10:35,920
You have this concept called the Divine council. And the

1171
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:39,960
divine council is not a pantheon as such like the

1172
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:45,000
but it's where pantheon type ideas come from Canaan. The

1173
01:10:45,079 --> 01:10:49,159
Canaanites also had L and L was the l. L

1174
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:51,640
was the god most high, and then you would have

1175
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:56,319
El Shaddai L. I can't remember any of the others.

1176
01:10:57,560 --> 01:10:58,720
Speaker 2: Where does Jahweh fit in?

1177
01:10:59,159 --> 01:11:02,840
Speaker 1: Well, Yahweh is is the Hebrew name for.

1178
01:11:04,359 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 5: L.

1179
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,680
Speaker 1: Basically kind of like almost the same entity, same same

1180
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:11,840
understanding ideas, kind of got these ideas, but they're given

1181
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:17,520
different names. So we the Israelites would go, we believe

1182
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:22,720
in Yahweh, but we also recognize that it is God

1183
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,600
knows high l Ellon, So you're el el Yon Canaanites.

1184
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:31,680
Your God knows height, we would call Yahweh. And then

1185
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:37,119
you've got things for Yahweh coming from Medianite times, from

1186
01:11:37,319 --> 01:11:40,319
I think storm god type things as well. I'm God

1187
01:11:40,359 --> 01:11:44,159
of metalworking. That was so. So when you've got that

1188
01:11:44,199 --> 01:11:47,600
thing in Genesis where it says, let us make man

1189
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,479
in our own image, and you know women as well,

1190
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:54,760
male and female. He created that. What's going on in

1191
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:59,560
there is a bit like me saying, right, Neil Ben Andrew,

1192
01:12:00,159 --> 01:12:06,199
let's get some pizza. Okay, heperony, I'll do the ordering,

1193
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:10,640
but we'll you know, we'll get some pizza. Yeah. So

1194
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:13,000
it's let us make men in our image, let us

1195
01:12:13,039 --> 01:12:17,760
make humans in our image. But l the l him,

1196
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:20,800
the uncreated one, is the one that creates them, whereas

1197
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:24,479
these are the ones, these divine council members. It's God

1198
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:30,800
runs a bureaucracy, basically hierarchical. Yeah. Yeah, and so these

1199
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:35,439
these ones are kind of like Tolkien zine linderlay At

1200
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:39,560
the beginning of the Summarillion very much. Tolkien riffs off

1201
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,039
this whole Divine Council idea with the Valor and the

1202
01:12:42,079 --> 01:12:47,039
Maya and that and Louvertar being the the the creator God.

1203
01:12:47,119 --> 01:12:51,279
And then you've got Melchor being the rebellious spirit as

1204
01:12:51,279 --> 01:12:54,479
it were. That's the second figure. So so that's what's

1205
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:57,439
going on there. You've got you have got other gods

1206
01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:03,239
within these within the Jewish well it's not Jewish by

1207
01:13:03,239 --> 01:13:07,079
that point that he break understanding, but they were the

1208
01:13:07,079 --> 01:13:09,399
gods of the nation. So I think if you go

1209
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:14,560
to Judoonomy thirty two eights, hang nine and seventeen, you

1210
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:20,520
will see there that God and points over the different nations,

1211
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:26,399
the seventeen nations, these members of the Divine Council, and

1212
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:31,000
Israel is Jahweh's portion, So Israel, the god of Israel

1213
01:13:31,199 --> 01:13:35,039
is Jahweh. And what happens is you get these gods

1214
01:13:35,079 --> 01:13:39,479
rebelling against Yahweh. And if you read the Book of

1215
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:41,159
one Enoch. I don't know if you guys have ever

1216
01:13:41,159 --> 01:13:43,720
heard of the Book of One Enoch. So the Book

1217
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:49,640
of One Enoch basically is fanfic apocalyptic sci fi from

1218
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:55,560
about the second to first century BC, where they're trying

1219
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:59,399
to explain what was going on with these fall of

1220
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:04,560
the rebellion creatures, the rebellious gods, and what's what's happening

1221
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:10,720
is that you get these ideas that they were given

1222
01:14:12,279 --> 01:14:17,560
tasks to give to humans, to lead humans in, like agriculture,

1223
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:22,119
metallogy and things like that, but they twisted their ways

1224
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:29,119
to become worshiped themselves, and so Metallogy turns into weapons manufacturer.

1225
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:33,119
So all of this kind of stuff takes place just

1226
01:14:33,199 --> 01:14:35,680
before the no Ach Flood, where you then end up

1227
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:38,880
with this hybridization going on where some of these are

1228
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:42,920
wanting to mate with human beings and have their own children,

1229
01:14:43,079 --> 01:14:47,199
their own sons of them as it were. And so yeah,

1230
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:50,720
all of that really gets mad. If you really want

1231
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,600
to get into this. There's a book called The Unseen

1232
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:57,720
Realm by Michael Heiser and he's so he's a Hebrew

1233
01:14:58,399 --> 01:15:01,880
a scholar, is a PhD. Of Semitic languages, and he's

1234
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:06,880
gone through the Acadian and the Sumerian and the Hebraic

1235
01:15:07,119 --> 01:15:14,199
materials and pulled all of the academic works together and said, well, actually,

1236
01:15:14,239 --> 01:15:16,279
this is what was going on at that point in time.

1237
01:15:17,359 --> 01:15:19,560
And he deals with the things like the annarchy and

1238
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:21,640
all of that sort of stuff, rather than do it

1239
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:26,000
as a Ancient Aliens approach, where you know, we just

1240
01:15:26,039 --> 01:15:28,720
see a pattern and then we extrapolate massively from it.

1241
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:31,680
He says, well, let's see what the actual materials themselves

1242
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:35,760
say in their original languages. And its a very different

1243
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:39,079
thing to George t Off ancient Aliens.

1244
01:15:40,159 --> 01:15:42,000
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you about the Nephiline and the.

1245
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:46,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean on my website, I look at

1246
01:15:46,319 --> 01:15:48,680
the Nephiline and all that sort of stuff.

1247
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 2: Do you think they're coming back?

1248
01:15:51,279 --> 01:15:54,560
Speaker 1: Well, so here's a pet of theory. I mean, if

1249
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:57,880
you look at one Enoch, so this is me speculating them.

1250
01:15:58,399 --> 01:16:02,800
If you look at one Enoch, one eenochs the Jews,

1251
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:05,159
because it was at the time the Jews trying to

1252
01:16:05,199 --> 01:16:08,239
explain why there was this no Aic flood and what

1253
01:16:08,319 --> 01:16:11,159
they say is and this is possibly for moral tradition.

1254
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:20,000
These beings were the offspring of this hybridization, were giants

1255
01:16:20,279 --> 01:16:24,560
that were consuming vast amounts of resources of the earth,

1256
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:28,079
and the earth was crying out as a result, the

1257
01:16:28,079 --> 01:16:32,680
earth itself was suffering in the physical els was suffering

1258
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:36,359
as also. We're human beings, we were also suffering, and

1259
01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:39,680
so this is why the Noek flood happened to kind

1260
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:42,560
of wipe out that region where these hybrids were taking

1261
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,880
place and destroying a lot of you know, the animals.

1262
01:16:47,159 --> 01:16:50,359
Everything was just a complete mess. It was all twisted

1263
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:55,560
and supposedly a real myth. Now, if you look at today,

1264
01:16:56,439 --> 01:16:59,880
are there gods of the nations today? And what is

1265
01:17:00,039 --> 01:17:04,079
consuming vast amounts of the Earth's resources in order to

1266
01:17:04,199 --> 01:17:09,640
accomplish a lot for a very few people. So if

1267
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:13,920
you see the news today, AI people are buying these

1268
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:16,920
AI companies are buying nuclear power stations to be able

1269
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:25,039
to power these energy hungry material computer systems. So things

1270
01:17:25,119 --> 01:17:29,119
like this, maybe the gods of today are that which

1271
01:17:29,159 --> 01:17:31,880
are taking over all of our lives and consuming vast

1272
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:35,000
amounts of resources in the process.

1273
01:17:35,039 --> 01:17:37,720
Speaker 2: There's something that I there's a friend of mine who

1274
01:17:39,399 --> 01:17:41,800
she does writing and she kind of like she channels

1275
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:45,279
she believes she channels angels and higher b beings, and

1276
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:48,000
a lot of the information comes to is quite positive.

1277
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:53,439
Have you heard of the name gonell before? And we're okay,

1278
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:56,039
just that I might ask that one. And have you

1279
01:17:56,079 --> 01:18:00,079
heard of anything mentioned to do with colors? And I

1280
01:18:00,119 --> 01:18:03,800
don't mean the chatrisystem, the new age chatrisystem, putting that aside.

1281
01:18:04,079 --> 01:18:07,079
Colours to do with white and wet, red and green,

1282
01:18:07,239 --> 01:18:11,159
and basically the essence of our souls being associated with colors.

1283
01:18:11,279 --> 01:18:13,680
Is that anything you've come across before, I've.

1284
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:18,359
Speaker 1: Heard of color symbolism in dreams and how we can

1285
01:18:18,399 --> 01:18:22,479
interpret dreams in color symbolism. I mean there's a lot

1286
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:26,439
of young and stuff in that, okay, and archetypal things

1287
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:32,239
like But that is really interesting because red in Western

1288
01:18:32,279 --> 01:18:36,600
culture tends to mean death and blood shed and things.

1289
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:39,800
But if you go to Eastern culture, like China, red

1290
01:18:40,119 --> 01:18:42,119
you have a red letter day, it's a really good thing.

1291
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:47,840
Whereas white in the West is holly and purity. White

1292
01:18:48,119 --> 01:18:53,439
in China and Japan is death. Yeah, so there are

1293
01:18:53,680 --> 01:19:00,560
very subjective things on what these colors mean. Do you

1294
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:01,239
ask anything?

1295
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is really interesting stuff. I mean you mentioned

1296
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:08,159
earlier on C. S. Lewis, and this is somebody's it's

1297
01:19:08,159 --> 01:19:12,119
almost some very obvious individuals should I should have thought

1298
01:19:12,159 --> 01:19:15,960
of earlier. Really, I didn't know that about how he

1299
01:19:16,079 --> 01:19:17,960
sought joy Davidman after she died.

1300
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:20,640
Speaker 1: I mean it said to the pres.

1301
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:21,600
Speaker 4: He says the presence.

1302
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 1: You see.

1303
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:23,880
Speaker 4: This is this is very very common with with people

1304
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:26,920
who bereaved. I mean, skeptics and psychologists will put it

1305
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:30,800
down to the grief process. They'll say, well, it's a phantom.

1306
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:33,680
It's a it's a it's a mental phantom, you imagine.

1307
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:39,119
But it's sometimes involves other objective phenomena, such as the

1308
01:19:39,159 --> 01:19:43,399
instrumental transcommunication, which is very common. Things like that, you know,

1309
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:45,880
the E v P Phone Calls from the Dead kind

1310
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:48,520
of thing. You know, by the way, the book Phone

1311
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:51,239
Calls from Dead is It is a PDF on the

1312
01:19:51,279 --> 01:19:54,520
Internet's archive. You'd be glad to get it where you can.

1313
01:19:55,880 --> 01:20:00,560
Speaker 1: Cooper has just released it this year, new addition edition,

1314
01:20:01,039 --> 01:20:05,600
just down the road from it on the show. Yeah, yeah, so.

1315
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:07,920
Speaker 4: I think maybe thinking of a different there's a there's

1316
01:20:07,920 --> 01:20:09,680
another one by two authors that came out in the

1317
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:14,760
seventies movie Yeah, Robo and the other guy. That's one

1318
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:18,359
come with the but I come with both. There's two authors,

1319
01:20:18,359 --> 01:20:20,399
but that on internet archive. It's out of print and

1320
01:20:20,439 --> 01:20:23,319
there's very expensive copies going around. But it's a fascinating read.

1321
01:20:23,359 --> 01:20:27,720
But in terms of Cis Lewis, I mean, this is

1322
01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:31,319
the story that it's told in the shadow Lands movie

1323
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:36,399
with Ansley Hopkins is a good film. That he met

1324
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:40,760
this woman from this American lady who he married, but

1325
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:42,920
I mean I didn't know that. And indeed, the fact

1326
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:45,039
that he came back he died instantly in the twenty

1327
01:20:45,039 --> 01:20:50,760
second and November nineteen sixty three, Yeah, the same day

1328
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:52,640
as the Ken This is why it wasn't really good

1329
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:56,760
much in the news interally frondly enough for what's his

1330
01:20:56,880 --> 01:21:00,560
name died the same day, a vitly the same day,

1331
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:03,840
which is a bit weird, a very strange thing, very

1332
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:08,000
spooky that. But he came back and appeared as a spirit.

1333
01:21:08,039 --> 01:21:10,079
I mean he he was open to this sort of thing.

1334
01:21:10,119 --> 01:21:13,560
I mean, he was an open minded guy and his

1335
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:16,479
Christian devotion didn't stop him being open minded. I mean,

1336
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:17,960
this is I think one of the lessons of this

1337
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:23,119
discussion is that, I mean, I think, yeah, one even

1338
01:21:23,399 --> 01:21:25,199
people on the new age side, on the in the

1339
01:21:25,239 --> 01:21:28,840
near pagan side, who actually seemed to be far more

1340
01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:33,399
closed minded than a lot of Christians. One lady I knew,

1341
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:36,720
you know she was. She was the kind of near

1342
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:41,640
pagan type character. She yeah, she said she if someone

1343
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:43,319
she knew she found out someone had gone to church.

1344
01:21:43,359 --> 01:21:46,239
She says, I want nothing to do with that. But

1345
01:21:46,319 --> 01:21:47,800
that's ridiculous, isn't it.

1346
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous.

1347
01:21:49,119 --> 01:21:53,479
Speaker 4: Well, she was always one who's complaining about about the

1348
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:56,920
other lack of open mindedness in society to her beliefs,

1349
01:21:57,119 --> 01:21:59,439
so that she should have looked in the mirror as

1350
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:01,760
a project projection there, Jeff.

1351
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:06,439
Speaker 1: The Nottingham Pagan Network I've been a member of since

1352
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:13,079
twy thirteen, twenty forty, so ten years. I've spoken at

1353
01:22:13,079 --> 01:22:18,760
their things. I've spoken at Pagan Pride UK, which so

1354
01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:21,920
the openness and the welcome that I've had has been fantastic.

1355
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:26,079
Speaker 3: They had the Into Faith Network sensor. Yea, yeah, I've

1356
01:22:26,079 --> 01:22:27,800
heard that through various Pagans things.

1357
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:28,079
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1358
01:22:28,279 --> 01:22:31,479
Speaker 4: Could you say more about the appearance of C. S.

1359
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:37,560
Speaker 1: Lewis Okay, yeah, after his death. So JB. Phillips is

1360
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:42,439
a Bible translator. He's translating from the King Is. Before JB.

1361
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:44,680
Phillips came along, all we had was the King James,

1362
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:47,319
these hours, thou shalt not thou shalt, and this that

1363
01:22:47,359 --> 01:22:50,000
and the other Old English. You have to be fairly

1364
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:53,319
Shakespearean to understand what the words meant, and a lot

1365
01:22:53,359 --> 01:22:56,560
of the words were dead by this point or false friends.

1366
01:22:57,079 --> 01:23:00,760
So he's working on a modern translation into moder English

1367
01:23:01,239 --> 01:23:04,479
of the New Testament, and he's struggling and finding it

1368
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:08,000
really quite difficult. So he sat there one day watching

1369
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:11,920
the telling. And this is corroborated by his wife, who

1370
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:19,720
was later some decades later, confirmed that to somebody that

1371
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:24,399
this definitely did happen. She said, he said, I was

1372
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:29,520
sitting there, and then suddenly Lewis appeared to me, you know, radiance,

1373
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:32,279
full of life, and he just said, it's not as

1374
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:35,079
difficult as you think it's going to I think it is,

1375
01:23:36,399 --> 01:23:38,840
And that encouraged him to keep going, and he had

1376
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:43,319
a second visitation some time later from Lewis, again again

1377
01:23:43,479 --> 01:23:46,600
encouraging him. Now a lot of my friends will go, oh, wow,

1378
01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:51,000
you know that it's demons, isn't it. Well, this a

1379
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:52,760
bit of an own goal, isn't it. If they had

1380
01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:56,279
been creating a Bible translation that you know, going to

1381
01:23:56,520 --> 01:23:58,000
put them out of a job. As it were.

1382
01:23:59,239 --> 01:24:04,319
Speaker 4: This is a thing that this might be the motivation

1383
01:24:04,399 --> 01:24:07,279
for some of the hostility you might get from some quarters.

1384
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:11,079
It's because they, you know, the heaven is you know.

1385
01:24:11,199 --> 01:24:14,800
The Orthodox Orthodox religions have a particular vision of the

1386
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:20,880
art life and usually these in certain individuals who are invested,

1387
01:24:21,399 --> 01:24:25,079
shall we say, institutionally in people believing in it, which

1388
01:24:25,079 --> 01:24:28,119
includes obviously the it's I don't want to sound cynical,

1389
01:24:28,199 --> 01:24:30,800
but also there's a lot of money involved in these things,

1390
01:24:30,880 --> 01:24:31,279
quite a lot.

1391
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:36,880
Speaker 2: Has anyone heard that the American original bit of rights

1392
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:40,560
was not exactly channeled but they had was inspired I

1393
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:44,159
suppose by a spiritual communication of such as anyone heard

1394
01:24:44,199 --> 01:24:44,880
that that.

1395
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:45,760
Speaker 1: Wasn't a thing?

1396
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:46,720
Speaker 4: No, I know that.

1397
01:24:48,199 --> 01:24:50,760
Speaker 2: One of the inspires is probably the better word.

1398
01:24:51,279 --> 01:24:54,399
Speaker 4: The flag was actually the US flag, the original flag

1399
01:24:55,199 --> 01:24:57,960
which actually had an eye, had a panalticon eye on it,

1400
01:24:59,079 --> 01:25:02,199
that was actually delivered to I forgot who was who

1401
01:25:02,279 --> 01:25:06,279
designed it one of the founding fathers, by what he

1402
01:25:06,359 --> 01:25:09,560
describes as a as a as a sort of shadow being.

1403
01:25:10,680 --> 01:25:12,279
It actually appeared in his garden.

1404
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:17,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a new flag or the old flag.

1405
01:25:17,359 --> 01:25:19,640
Speaker 4: It's not the current US flag. It's there was an

1406
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:22,560
original flag that was designed before the revolution that actually

1407
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:24,800
had a panopticon on it that and it does appear.

1408
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:26,520
It's this symbol that appears on the dollar bill.

1409
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:30,159
Speaker 2: Essentially, So you talked about the illuminati pyramid.

1410
01:25:31,239 --> 01:25:33,479
Speaker 4: Although they didn't use that, they didn't call it that

1411
01:25:33,640 --> 01:25:35,640
when it was created, but it's often used as symbol

1412
01:25:35,680 --> 01:25:39,680
for the illuminality. But that was actually on the on

1413
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:43,039
the first design, the first draft design for the American flag.

1414
01:25:43,199 --> 01:25:45,359
Speaker 2: I think it's also on the French either, either the

1415
01:25:45,399 --> 01:25:48,840
French Constitution. I've seen something that's French, because of course

1416
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:52,479
there's there's a lot of linking between France and America.

1417
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:55,800
For whatever is like the French French Freemason's center of

1418
01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:58,479
the Statue of Liberty. Something else, something was pointed out

1419
01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:02,239
to me recently that really concerned with the American Statue

1420
01:26:02,279 --> 01:26:05,560
of Liberty that was given by French free Masons to America.

1421
01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:07,680
The ankle has got a chain on it.

1422
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:10,319
Speaker 4: Did you know that, no, that this this sort of

1423
01:26:10,319 --> 01:26:12,640
thing just of course, I mean there's no doubt that

1424
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:15,479
the John, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, all these point board

1425
01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:18,039
involved a secret society network. Franklin was a member of

1426
01:26:18,039 --> 01:26:19,800
the hell Fire Club that used to meet in some

1427
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:23,840
caves not far from where I live actually, And I

1428
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:26,199
do know that the the eye you see this, the

1429
01:26:26,239 --> 01:26:29,720
eye is a symbol. I mean, you've used going back

1430
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:33,119
to Tolkien. Tolkien used the eye of sour on this

1431
01:26:33,119 --> 01:26:34,760
this eye that's on the top of the tower that

1432
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:40,279
sees all through through through walls, through land, through flesh

1433
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:43,239
and things like this, and can and through the ring.

1434
01:26:43,319 --> 01:26:48,399
It has the ability to like control Frodo. And then yeah,

1435
01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:51,119
the Palatiner, of course is it appears in the Paneteer.

1436
01:26:53,159 --> 01:26:55,640
It's and you find it's in fiction. You find it

1437
01:26:55,680 --> 01:26:57,920
everywhere because the the there's this phrase of the eye

1438
01:26:58,000 --> 01:26:59,680
is the window on the soul. We know that we

1439
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:02,560
if if you're communicating with someone you'ren't looking and you

1440
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:04,520
don't make eye contacts, it's uncomfortable.

1441
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 1: I know that.

1442
01:27:07,199 --> 01:27:09,239
Speaker 4: When I was interviewed by the police after I was arrested,

1443
01:27:09,239 --> 01:27:11,279
I was very careful not to make eye contact with

1444
01:27:11,359 --> 01:27:15,520
them because I wasn't in trouble. I mean, they let

1445
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:15,880
me go.

1446
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:17,119
Speaker 1: But the mummy what you arrested for.

1447
01:27:18,079 --> 01:27:21,840
Speaker 4: I was held in suspicion of violent disorder, which I

1448
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:24,239
was innocent of. But I mean, while I was being interviewed,

1449
01:27:24,239 --> 01:27:26,880
I was careful not look into their eyes because you

1450
01:27:26,920 --> 01:27:30,479
can give information now just very micro expressions in your

1451
01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:35,000
iris and things like this. So it's interesting that that

1452
01:27:35,039 --> 01:27:38,239
one's actually appeared in that way. It appeared on the

1453
01:27:38,279 --> 01:27:40,520
flag in that way.

1454
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:43,640
Speaker 2: I mean, doctors to make sense, because the whole of

1455
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:49,439
American or establishment is very, very based on symbolism. If

1456
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:51,560
you have a look at they're obsessed with thirteen for

1457
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:53,960
some reason. When you've got the eagle and it's clutching

1458
01:27:54,039 --> 01:27:59,439
thirteen arrows and you've got you know, thirteen strikes or

1459
01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:04,159
whatever it is, there's everything's got symbolism behind it.

1460
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 4: Ington, DC, yourself is an incredible it's almost it's an

1461
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:10,800
incredible thing. I mean, you could say the same for

1462
01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:15,039
Paris Pariser example, when Baron Holstman redesigned Paris, it has

1463
01:28:15,039 --> 01:28:17,680
a lot of that same this strange thing, these strange

1464
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:19,680
picture features in the architecture and things like that. I

1465
01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:21,720
don't know how we've got onto this subject from the system,

1466
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:24,560
but you're talking about I think it was from the

1467
01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:28,159
totals and the dead and and the fact that the

1468
01:28:28,159 --> 01:28:31,319
the segway back.

1469
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:35,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't remember where I heard it from, but

1470
01:28:35,279 --> 01:28:39,439
some people talking about the the original Constitution and the

1471
01:28:39,439 --> 01:28:43,359
idea for the amendments was either sort of channeled or

1472
01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:46,520
inspired in some kind of spiritual way, whether it came

1473
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:48,680
in a dream, or whether it was kind of like

1474
01:28:48,760 --> 01:28:52,119
a thought process that was downloaded. But I suppose I'm

1475
01:28:52,159 --> 01:28:55,000
going with this. It's like there are some occasions where

1476
01:28:55,079 --> 01:28:59,279
positive things can kind of come through and channel through people,

1477
01:28:59,319 --> 01:29:02,399
whereas like darker things. I can't remember what we're talking about,

1478
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:04,800
the shadow being with it, Aye, I'd see that's more

1479
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:06,840
in the dark side. Personally, good and.

1480
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:09,840
Speaker 4: Bad things can can come from channel information, indeed neutral things.

1481
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,439
I mean, the story we told about the US Constitution

1482
01:29:13,560 --> 01:29:16,399
is not unusual. There's other examples as well. And we

1483
01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:18,960
know very well that some Jews and Muslims have their

1484
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:22,399
own law, which is like the Jews have the beth Dean,

1485
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,920
which is actually their court, and they and the Kadi,

1486
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:29,359
the Muslims have the Caddy, the councils of the Sharia.

1487
01:29:30,239 --> 01:29:33,920
These are legal systems that are gifts from God. Therefore,

1488
01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:36,880
but people believe in that. People use them.

1489
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:37,840
Speaker 5: They have no they.

1490
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:41,399
Speaker 4: They're completely unofficial. They have no except perhaps in some

1491
01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:44,520
countries like maybe in Saudi Arabia or in Israel or

1492
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:47,640
placelet not even in Israel. Israel has a secular constitution,

1493
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:50,960
but I know there were theocracies of various kinds. But

1494
01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:54,640
these things that have described as channel. And we know

1495
01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:58,319
that Mohammad himself was shown a golden book or a

1496
01:29:58,319 --> 01:30:00,520
book full of information, and Graham hank Bo says that

1497
01:30:00,560 --> 01:30:05,680
this and this became the Holy Koran. And Graham Hancock

1498
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:09,000
said in his book Supernatural that is another common feature

1499
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:12,000
where someone who is showing information in like a book,

1500
01:30:12,079 --> 01:30:17,680
usually with pages made of gold. Another one is yeah,

1501
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:20,000
I was just thinking, yeah, are you You took the

1502
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:24,399
words around my mouth. Joseph Smith, he dug He reports

1503
01:30:24,399 --> 01:30:26,000
that he was on a farm and he dug a

1504
01:30:26,079 --> 01:30:28,359
hole in the ground and there was this golden book

1505
01:30:28,399 --> 01:30:30,279
which there was an angel that showed him little the

1506
01:30:30,359 --> 01:30:33,119
fact that he was but bankrupt and his house, his

1507
01:30:33,119 --> 01:30:35,880
farms about to be mortgage. You know, he influenced him slightly.

1508
01:30:36,399 --> 01:30:39,399
But I don't want to sound too cynical, but I

1509
01:30:39,399 --> 01:30:43,800
mean this, this is it's a recurring theme throughout history.

1510
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:48,279
That's the world we live in. It has this background

1511
01:30:48,359 --> 01:30:51,279
to which is which is spiritual. Whichever country you're in,

1512
01:30:51,319 --> 01:30:55,640
whichever whether it's a religion, whether it's a state, you

1513
01:30:55,960 --> 01:30:59,239
find this background to them which are spiritual dimension.

1514
01:30:59,359 --> 01:31:04,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's I mean, since the Enlightenment, we've

1515
01:31:04,479 --> 01:31:11,279
had this disenfranchising disenchantment of the world with scientism taking

1516
01:31:11,319 --> 01:31:14,600
over like Dawkins and that. But actually, when you look

1517
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:19,239
at the data from research from polling, we are actually

1518
01:31:19,319 --> 01:31:24,159
one going back to a re enchanted, magical world where

1519
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:27,119
people have had enough of oh well, we're just a

1520
01:31:27,159 --> 01:31:31,119
collection of atoms, meaningless collection of atoms. But actually we

1521
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:36,640
have got purpose and meaning beyond that the physical nature

1522
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:37,079
that we are.

1523
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:39,479
Speaker 4: I can attest to that, actually because I've always taken

1524
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:42,239
strong interest in skeptics on the skeptic movement. Actually went

1525
01:31:42,279 --> 01:31:45,880
to a skeptic conference a couple of weeks ago. They

1526
01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:51,079
are there is something in a sense they believe they've

1527
01:31:51,119 --> 01:31:55,439
broken free from all belief systems. Yeah, they have a belief.

1528
01:31:55,159 --> 01:31:56,279
Speaker 2: System, they've created their own.

1529
01:31:56,279 --> 01:32:00,680
Speaker 1: They've got a highest absolutely, although I mean skepticism them itself,

1530
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:04,640
genuine skepticism is a thing to be applauded. You don't

1531
01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:08,640
believe the thing that you're told you. What I found

1532
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:12,279
is that skepticism has more now become cynicism.

1533
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:14,880
Speaker 4: I should I should clarify by my meaning of using

1534
01:32:14,880 --> 01:32:18,439
the word actually because of course the way and it's

1535
01:32:18,439 --> 01:32:20,960
actually the skeptics themselves who don't understand this because they

1536
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:23,439
don't have the interest. They seem to like the introspective

1537
01:32:23,439 --> 01:32:27,640
abilities to understand themselves. They will say, well, we will.

1538
01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:30,479
It's about evidence. It's a portioning claims to valid logic

1539
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:33,199
so as not to be fooled by ourselves or others.

1540
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:35,720
It's in the Constitution of Oxford Skeptics in the pub

1541
01:32:36,479 --> 01:32:42,560
I'm defining people who call themselves skeptics, who more accurate

1542
01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:45,680
term would a more accurate description would be people who

1543
01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:49,600
have an igeological commitment to certain things such as paranormal,

1544
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:56,520
conspiratorial matters, euphological not being true. But yeah, that's that

1545
01:32:56,640 --> 01:32:59,520
which whatever term, whatever word we use, that's what I'm

1546
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:00,479
actually with into.

1547
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:02,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, physic physicalism.

1548
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:03,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's another good one. Yeah.

1549
01:33:04,079 --> 01:33:06,239
Speaker 2: I think I think that the best course of action

1550
01:33:06,399 --> 01:33:09,720
is objectivism. That is, to say, you don't necessarily believe

1551
01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:12,359
something or disbelieve something. You're open to all options. But

1552
01:33:12,640 --> 01:33:14,520
I think you might ben I think there's a mindset

1553
01:33:14,680 --> 01:33:18,039
like if if you're if you if you don't want

1554
01:33:18,119 --> 01:33:21,760
something to be true, you have confirmation biased towards everything

1555
01:33:21,800 --> 01:33:24,319
proving that it's not true kind of thing. So it's

1556
01:33:24,359 --> 01:33:26,720
it's it's this kind of thing. I mean, if you

1557
01:33:26,760 --> 01:33:28,920
take like a shot, like a haunted show, like a

1558
01:33:28,920 --> 01:33:32,239
most haunted type thing you've got. You've got some people

1559
01:33:32,239 --> 01:33:34,319
and I won't name that, some people who believe everything

1560
01:33:34,359 --> 01:33:36,720
is spirit. Oh my god, something crushes and bangs, that's

1561
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:39,159
a spirit. You know, a feather floating, that's a spirit.

1562
01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:41,840
I think I don't think that's helpful. I think because

1563
01:33:41,880 --> 01:33:44,800
it can just be rational explanations. But I also think

1564
01:33:45,039 --> 01:33:46,920
is not helpful is people say, oh, it's all load

1565
01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:49,159
of rubbish. No, this is just this, This is just that.

1566
01:33:49,199 --> 01:33:52,279
Everything's provable, everything is explainable. You know, we live in

1567
01:33:52,279 --> 01:33:54,199
a three D world and that's it. I think I

1568
01:33:54,199 --> 01:33:57,000
think a better approach is to be objective and to say, okay,

1569
01:33:57,039 --> 01:33:59,640
I'm starting from a neutral position, and I want to

1570
01:33:59,640 --> 01:34:02,399
see what evidence there is, and and you know, go

1571
01:34:02,439 --> 01:34:05,560
where the evidence is. Basically, now, Matt, this is really

1572
01:34:05,680 --> 01:34:06,439
really interesting.

1573
01:34:07,359 --> 01:34:10,000
Speaker 4: Do you want if I just make a point pedantic

1574
01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:14,039
use the term objectivism. Some people might not understand because

1575
01:34:14,239 --> 01:34:18,079
objectivism is the name given to a philosophy of Iran

1576
01:34:18,199 --> 01:34:21,279
who was Ironrand was was a radical American kind of

1577
01:34:21,319 --> 01:34:24,359
liberty Russian American libertarian who wrote a number of novels

1578
01:34:24,399 --> 01:34:27,960
which will philosophical at bast Yeah, which is a huge that.

1579
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:31,760
Speaker 2: What what what am I looking for in terms of

1580
01:34:31,880 --> 01:34:33,159
words being objective?

1581
01:34:33,199 --> 01:34:37,640
Speaker 4: But with just sorry to interrupt, but that's just yeah,

1582
01:34:38,119 --> 01:34:40,479
you could use the word objectivism for your own ideas

1583
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:42,800
as well. I mean, there's there's no copyright on that name.

1584
01:34:42,840 --> 01:34:44,800
It's just that she called her own philosophy, which is

1585
01:34:44,800 --> 01:34:45,880
actually nothing of the sort.

1586
01:34:46,079 --> 01:34:50,079
Speaker 2: What would be a better, be better term.

1587
01:34:49,239 --> 01:34:53,199
Speaker 4: With physicalism motually all material just eighth, I say materialism,

1588
01:34:53,279 --> 01:34:56,760
skeptico materialism. I mean it's it's it's kind of like

1589
01:34:56,840 --> 01:35:00,119
a linguistic debate really, rather than because we understand. We

1590
01:35:00,159 --> 01:35:03,520
all understand what we're talking about, don't we. Yeah, the

1591
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:05,319
four of us you understand except me.

1592
01:35:07,640 --> 01:35:09,479
Speaker 2: But no, I forget my point. I'm gonna I'm going

1593
01:35:09,560 --> 01:35:13,119
to bring in something that's absolutely fascinating. So, Matt, you

1594
01:35:13,159 --> 01:35:17,199
mentioned John Fraser earlier on, didn't you? And if we're

1595
01:35:17,199 --> 01:35:20,079
talking about the right guys, that's the Scottish guy Glasses off.

1596
01:35:20,079 --> 01:35:25,840
This guy Glass, very very intelligent guy, fantastic guy. How

1597
01:35:25,920 --> 01:35:28,680
I know him, is going on ghost walks in London.

1598
01:35:28,760 --> 01:35:31,119
So there's a collective of people that go on ghost

1599
01:35:31,199 --> 01:35:34,520
walks and we go. We used to go all over

1600
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:37,399
the place before COVID. COVID came along kind of killed it.

1601
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:41,680
But I spoke to John Fraser a few times, and

1602
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:43,640
he's a fascinating guy. This is this is where it

1603
01:35:43,640 --> 01:35:44,920
gets really interesting.

1604
01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:45,800
Speaker 1: Now.

1605
01:35:46,039 --> 01:35:49,800
Speaker 2: The ancient ram in in I believe it's Gloucestershire, is

1606
01:35:49,880 --> 01:35:55,399
reputedly one of the most haunted, paranormally active places, probably

1607
01:35:55,439 --> 01:35:58,199
on Earth, certainly in England. It's a very old place,

1608
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:02,520
reputedly extremely hart did. It's got stories of devil worship

1609
01:36:02,720 --> 01:36:05,800
and I guess should close the window because it's bringing

1610
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:09,960
at me. It's got devil worship, it's got kind of witchcraft,

1611
01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:15,399
has got lots of dark things going on, very poltergeist activity,

1612
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:18,319
kind of related things, even to the point where there

1613
01:36:18,359 --> 01:36:21,800
were some doctors and nurses that did a sleepover and

1614
01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:24,840
apparently they were so scared by what went on they

1615
01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:27,960
actually climbed out of the windows to actually get away

1616
01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:30,680
from it. This is the story because the doctors and

1617
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:33,119
nurses were complete skeptics. Oh yeah, it's just a load

1618
01:36:33,159 --> 01:36:34,840
of old rubbish, you know, And I think it was

1619
01:36:34,880 --> 01:36:37,399
like a charity sleepover type thing. But they couldn't wait

1620
01:36:37,439 --> 01:36:39,840
to get the hell out of it. Now, this is

1621
01:36:39,880 --> 01:36:43,920
where it gets interesting. John Fraser, I think I were

1622
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:48,119
describing as a skeptic but open minded. He said he

1623
01:36:48,199 --> 01:36:51,640
had one of the best night's sleep in the in

1624
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:55,000
the room, the haunted bedroom of the ancient ram In.

1625
01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:59,439
What is going on there? Is his reality? Has he

1626
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:02,079
brought in in that? I don't believe that this is

1627
01:37:02,199 --> 01:37:07,840
real and manifested a reality that nothing happens around him,

1628
01:37:08,000 --> 01:37:09,319
that's of a parallel nature.

1629
01:37:09,600 --> 01:37:10,279
Speaker 1: What do you reckon?

1630
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:13,159
Speaker 2: Because I don't know. I can't answer it. Why did

1631
01:37:13,199 --> 01:37:19,560
you get anything? It's just comment on something that I wasn't.

1632
01:37:20,000 --> 01:37:21,079
I wasn't the party to.

1633
01:37:21,520 --> 01:37:26,479
Speaker 4: Observe, the nurses, the skeptical, weren't they and yes, this

1634
01:37:26,640 --> 01:37:26,920
is it?

1635
01:37:27,319 --> 01:37:33,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I have no idea. It's a bit perfectly honest.

1636
01:37:34,079 --> 01:37:40,279
This stuff doesn't. This stuff doesn't jump when we shout jump.

1637
01:37:41,319 --> 01:37:43,560
You know. It's like when you've got field going. We're

1638
01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:48,279
not tellingybody. I'm just thinking, really, you know, if I

1639
01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:50,600
was on the other side, I'd be going get lost.

1640
01:37:50,600 --> 01:37:55,079
I'm busy that sort of stuff. We kind of treat

1641
01:37:55,119 --> 01:37:59,159
the dead as a toy. That's why I don't personally

1642
01:37:59,279 --> 01:38:02,720
like the term ghost hunting because you know, you wouldn't

1643
01:38:02,800 --> 01:38:06,560
hunt a human being alive. This is on the line.

1644
01:38:07,279 --> 01:38:09,560
Why would you hunt? Well, you so you know what

1645
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:13,640
I mean? Why would somebody who was passed over? My

1646
01:38:14,399 --> 01:38:16,680
approach to all of this is it's a pastoral thing.

1647
01:38:17,279 --> 01:38:22,720
It's to bring healing and help, wholeness and peace. She's

1648
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:24,439
from spirit guide saying the same thing.

1649
01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:26,359
Speaker 3: You know, you get ghost hunters of goa at these places,

1650
01:38:26,399 --> 01:38:29,920
take the temperatures of the room and listen for knox

1651
01:38:30,039 --> 01:38:33,159
or anything like that, and atmospheres. But they say then

1652
01:38:33,199 --> 01:38:35,560
the ghost researchers leave the place, but they don't give

1653
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:41,399
any consideration to where the soul is at there or you.

1654
01:38:41,359 --> 01:38:43,920
Speaker 1: Know absolutely I mean, so I'm going to pull this

1655
01:38:44,039 --> 01:38:47,760
out again. Last chapter talks about when I went to

1656
01:38:47,840 --> 01:38:51,079
a place called Saint Bebel's Castle if you don't know,

1657
01:38:51,079 --> 01:38:56,000
if you've ever heard of it. So I first came

1658
01:38:56,000 --> 01:38:59,760
across Saint Rebel's Castle on Great British ghosts.

1659
01:39:00,079 --> 01:39:02,319
Speaker 2: Oh I love that, good, Yeah, I love that.

1660
01:39:03,039 --> 01:39:06,439
Speaker 1: So she went through a place called St Brebel's Castle

1661
01:39:06,439 --> 01:39:08,399
and I was watching it and saw this Youth Hostel

1662
01:39:08,399 --> 01:39:11,199
Association sign on the door and thought, well, I'm a

1663
01:39:11,319 --> 01:39:14,720
member of the youth hostel. Weird because it was a

1664
01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:17,279
cheap holiday for me to take three lads and my

1665
01:39:17,319 --> 01:39:22,359
wife too, so I looked it up. Brilliant, excellently. They've

1666
01:39:22,399 --> 01:39:24,680
got some you know, they're still taking people in. This

1667
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:27,399
was just before lockdown, so between Christmas and New Year

1668
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:31,039
twenty nineteen, I took the family down to Saint Rebel's Castle.

1669
01:39:31,439 --> 01:39:34,119
The lads didn't know what we were going to, only

1670
01:39:34,159 --> 01:39:36,600
my wife did. And we're climbing up the hill because

1671
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:39,399
it's you know, we came in on the not through

1672
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:42,880
the right road. We came on the river road and

1673
01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:45,199
we were climbing up this hill. Get to the top

1674
01:39:45,239 --> 01:39:49,880
and it's completely misty and just backle it with this

1675
01:39:49,960 --> 01:39:54,720
castle and it's fantastic. But we spent three nights there

1676
01:39:54,760 --> 01:39:59,079
over Christmas and loved it. No spooking has happened at all.

1677
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:01,560
Went back again in.

1678
01:40:03,399 --> 01:40:03,600
Speaker 4: There.

1679
01:40:03,960 --> 01:40:08,560
Speaker 1: It was October twenty ninety, twenty twenty two, nineteen twenty two. Yeah,

1680
01:40:08,359 --> 01:40:12,119
that looked stupid. Went back in October twenty two at

1681
01:40:12,119 --> 01:40:15,680
the half term and we were there from the Monday

1682
01:40:16,079 --> 01:40:24,000
to the Thursday, so three nights and on. Nothing happened.

1683
01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:28,560
And I was just listening in on what was going

1684
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:31,560
on at the same time. On the Monday, arrived a

1685
01:40:31,560 --> 01:40:37,880
walking group with women, elderly women, elderly men, and they

1686
01:40:37,920 --> 01:40:43,279
had two dormitories, two of the big dormitoriates. So when

1687
01:40:43,439 --> 01:40:46,760
I'm talking to the manager at the place, it was

1688
01:40:46,840 --> 01:40:50,680
that we packed up the things. It was everything was

1689
01:40:50,720 --> 01:40:52,760
in the boot with the car except I just we

1690
01:40:52,800 --> 01:40:55,239
were having breakfast and I had a word with the

1691
01:40:55,279 --> 01:40:58,960
manager and having a chat. How do you know, do

1692
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:01,239
you have any have you got any spooky stories to tell?

1693
01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:04,119
You said, well, no, not really, but we do go

1694
01:41:04,199 --> 01:41:06,439
and knock on the door before we enter and stay

1695
01:41:06,439 --> 01:41:09,720
you know, luckwid just coming in. However, she said on

1696
01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:15,039
Monday nights. On Monday there was a really dark presence.

1697
01:41:15,119 --> 01:41:16,920
She said, I've never felt it before. There was an

1698
01:41:16,960 --> 01:41:21,760
atmosphere in the prison and just done the landing outside.

1699
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:26,000
I'm like, oh, interesting, what had happened before then? And

1700
01:41:26,039 --> 01:41:29,039
she said, well, we had a paranormal investigation team in

1701
01:41:29,079 --> 01:41:32,239
for the weekend. I thought, ah, So we had a

1702
01:41:32,279 --> 01:41:35,399
conversation much like I've just described about the fact that

1703
01:41:35,680 --> 01:41:38,039
I don't think that it's good to stir stuff up

1704
01:41:38,199 --> 01:41:42,239
just because you want to capture something on evidence. Why

1705
01:41:42,319 --> 01:41:44,840
are you disturbing the dead in that way? You know,

1706
01:41:44,920 --> 01:41:47,520
treat them with respect, And she was really thankful that

1707
01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:52,840
we had that approach. She said that. My son then

1708
01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:58,520
relayed that on the Monday nights, the women's dormitory had

1709
01:41:58,560 --> 01:42:02,520
all their windows blow open in the early hours. And

1710
01:42:02,680 --> 01:42:04,880
I mean, we've been in that dormitory and they're lock

1711
01:42:04,920 --> 01:42:08,479
handles like that, so it clinked and they're really stiff.

1712
01:42:09,119 --> 01:42:11,840
So all of these things opened on the Monday night

1713
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:16,800
and something blew out, which was a bit weird. So

1714
01:42:16,880 --> 01:42:20,760
I thought, well, okay, something's obviously been messed about with,

1715
01:42:21,439 --> 01:42:27,479
and my family were just getting the last bits together

1716
01:42:28,319 --> 01:42:31,880
and I went up onto the landing and present and

1717
01:42:32,319 --> 01:42:34,439
I couldn't sense anything, but I just just had a

1718
01:42:34,479 --> 01:42:38,279
conversation and just with whatever was there, just to say,

1719
01:42:38,359 --> 01:42:41,159
you know, look, if there's anything that's been disturbed now

1720
01:42:41,239 --> 01:42:43,760
you can find your peace in Christ et cetera, et cetera,

1721
01:42:44,319 --> 01:42:50,399
and just doing a pastoral thing with whatever might be there. Now.

1722
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:56,560
There wasn't anything that was there, wasn't anything like my

1723
01:42:56,640 --> 01:42:59,960
head span round or doors went banging or anything like that.

1724
01:43:00,239 --> 01:43:08,800
It was just nothing, nothing sensed. So I went got

1725
01:43:09,039 --> 01:43:12,600
to the clean my teeth in my washed bag. My

1726
01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:15,880
family were in the car. I went to the boot

1727
01:43:15,880 --> 01:43:18,000
of the car. Now, this is a fifty seven plate

1728
01:43:18,079 --> 01:43:23,880
with a a Bluetooth stereo that I bought from LD

1729
01:43:24,119 --> 01:43:29,520
about ten years previous. So my phone didn't automatically connect

1730
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:31,960
to the stereo. It wasn't one of those auto connecting

1731
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:35,960
ones at the time. And as I got my hand

1732
01:43:36,000 --> 01:43:38,159
up in the air to pull the boot lid down,

1733
01:43:38,920 --> 01:43:43,840
this is this incredibly loud electronic noise coming from the speakers.

1734
01:43:44,399 --> 01:43:47,279
What on earth is that? My family? What's going on? Now?

1735
01:43:47,279 --> 01:43:51,399
What's going on? So got all of this electronic dirgy noise,

1736
01:43:51,760 --> 01:43:55,399
and I'm thinking, okay, get into the cars playing along,

1737
01:43:56,119 --> 01:44:00,640
and I'm going through my phone. It's an S seven seven,

1738
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:03,600
going through the phone, trying to find the app that

1739
01:44:03,680 --> 01:44:06,159
was making any music if it was playing. And I

1740
01:44:06,199 --> 01:44:08,359
opened up the LC player because that's what I used

1741
01:44:08,359 --> 01:44:12,520
for my music, and I close that close all apps.

1742
01:44:12,720 --> 01:44:15,039
It's still playing this music. And the music that came

1743
01:44:15,079 --> 01:44:18,279
out was had the words peace will come to me,

1744
01:44:18,560 --> 01:44:22,000
Peace will come to me. I'm leaving bitterness behind this time.

1745
01:44:22,079 --> 01:44:25,159
I'm cleaning out my mind. There is no space for

1746
01:44:25,239 --> 01:44:29,399
the regrets I will remember to Forget, which is the

1747
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:35,319
opening the words from Depeche Modes track called Peace. Now.

1748
01:44:35,359 --> 01:44:40,159
I've got three thousand tracks on my phone and just

1749
01:44:40,399 --> 01:44:43,000
randomly it picked that one, which I didn't know what

1750
01:44:43,039 --> 01:44:44,600
it was, which is why I was like, well, what

1751
01:44:44,760 --> 01:44:48,520
is playing the I've got the album. I downloaded a

1752
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:50,680
load of albums but not got around to listening to

1753
01:44:50,720 --> 01:44:54,640
them all at this point. So I've had a conversation

1754
01:44:54,800 --> 01:44:59,600
with something that has been disturbed, I believe by investigators Previously.

1755
01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:03,760
I've you know, attempted to broke a peace, bring peace

1756
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:07,279
to the area, don't get any response. The very very

1757
01:45:07,439 --> 01:45:11,359
last thing that my feet are just about to leave

1758
01:45:11,439 --> 01:45:14,680
the ground before I jet off with the family. And

1759
01:45:15,399 --> 01:45:17,239
it was only when we got to Monoloth that I

1760
01:45:17,319 --> 01:45:20,600
found the album what it was, because we drove off

1761
01:45:20,600 --> 01:45:23,119
and we stopped off at Monloth Because only then I

1762
01:45:23,159 --> 01:45:29,119
found it was Depeche Modes Peace track, And I'm like, oh, hey,

1763
01:45:30,399 --> 01:45:34,960
So that to me suggests confirmation that what was there

1764
01:45:35,079 --> 01:45:38,880
had found peace just or it could just be, as

1765
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:41,159
Chris Finch says, a massive coincidence.

1766
01:45:44,000 --> 01:45:44,520
Speaker 2: We never know.

1767
01:45:44,720 --> 01:45:47,960
Speaker 1: This is the weird thing we know, Yeah, exactly. So

1768
01:45:48,000 --> 01:45:50,319
there you go. I mean that's how I operate anyway.

1769
01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:53,760
Speaker 3: That reminds me of the story that you've told Ben,

1770
01:45:53,920 --> 01:45:58,039
of the Michael Shermer thing. Yeah, he's on his wedding day.

1771
01:45:58,079 --> 01:46:01,479
Do you want to recount that? For sure, he would

1772
01:46:01,880 --> 01:46:03,079
talk to the skeptics.

1773
01:46:03,239 --> 01:46:06,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a skeptic, but there was according to his

1774
01:46:06,039 --> 01:46:08,479
own words, this made him. This made him rock back

1775
01:46:08,479 --> 01:46:10,680
on his heels and shook his skepticism to his core.

1776
01:46:12,039 --> 01:46:14,640
It's well, it's quite a long story. I'll cut it. Oh,

1777
01:46:14,720 --> 01:46:17,560
I'll cut it short. He got married to a lady

1778
01:46:17,640 --> 01:46:20,000
in his home because you could do that where he

1779
01:46:20,039 --> 01:46:26,119
lives in California, USA. And during the during this wedding, NOI,

1780
01:46:26,439 --> 01:46:28,760
he heard music playing from a from a little portable

1781
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:31,840
radio that belonged to his wife. Now that this was

1782
01:46:31,920 --> 01:46:33,840
very important. It had a lot of sentimental value. This

1783
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:38,279
was the nineteen seventies Phillips transistor radio and worked in years.

1784
01:46:39,439 --> 01:46:41,199
If he didn't even know the batteries, well there was

1785
01:46:41,199 --> 01:46:43,640
any batteries in it. But there were batteries in it,

1786
01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:47,279
but they were but he he put he had batteries in.

1787
01:46:47,319 --> 01:46:47,960
Speaker 1: But he'd been.

1788
01:46:47,920 --> 01:46:50,039
Speaker 4: Trying to get it to fix it, and it wouldn't work,

1789
01:46:50,560 --> 01:46:52,319
and she said, don't worry about it. And it doesn't

1790
01:46:52,319 --> 01:46:54,279
marry it doesn't work, and he probably wouldn't pick up

1791
01:46:54,319 --> 01:46:57,720
stations digital stations anyway. But then music starts playing from

1792
01:46:57,760 --> 01:47:01,920
it and it's a song her granddad lies and and

1793
01:47:02,039 --> 01:47:04,840
share my wow, he's I remember these words. I don't

1794
01:47:04,840 --> 01:47:06,439
remember all the details, but I remember the words.

1795
01:47:06,439 --> 01:47:06,880
Speaker 1: He said.

1796
01:47:08,000 --> 01:47:09,840
Speaker 4: If I had heard this story from someone else, I

1797
01:47:09,880 --> 01:47:12,720
wouldn't have believed it. And I said, well, he has

1798
01:47:12,760 --> 01:47:14,840
heard this story from other people and he hasn't believed it.

1799
01:47:15,399 --> 01:47:18,199
Now it's happened to him. I was interested to see

1800
01:47:18,199 --> 01:47:21,239
where he goes from there because I watched his debates

1801
01:47:21,279 --> 01:47:25,039
with Graham Hankoll that started very very vitriolic. Then after

1802
01:47:25,039 --> 01:47:27,479
a couple of after doing a number of short Joe

1803
01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:31,439
Rogan spots, they kind of became friends. And Graham's trying

1804
01:47:31,439 --> 01:47:34,079
to persuade him to go to the jungle and take Myahuaska.

1805
01:47:34,840 --> 01:47:36,600
That's that's what will happened there.

1806
01:47:37,359 --> 01:47:38,920
Speaker 1: It's that big great episode.

1807
01:47:39,319 --> 01:47:43,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, So just changing the tone slightly as a struggle

1808
01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:46,600
debate I had online with someone over YouTube, and it

1809
01:47:46,760 --> 01:47:51,359
was basically, there's no such thing as life after death.

1810
01:47:51,399 --> 01:47:53,960
No such thing as medium or they're all Charlatan's blah

1811
01:47:54,000 --> 01:47:58,600
blah blah blah, no such thing as ghosts. And I

1812
01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:01,239
basically had a quick debate with someone and he said

1813
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:06,359
my reasoning, Well, he said, a proper Baseian reasoning mandates

1814
01:48:06,399 --> 01:48:08,439
gives proper baits and values to a claim, and it

1815
01:48:08,640 --> 01:48:12,520
just accordingly when evidence arises to revive conclusions you had

1816
01:48:12,560 --> 01:48:15,479
of Baseian Ben, is that something you might have known?

1817
01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:16,239
Speaker 4: Yes, I have.

1818
01:48:16,560 --> 01:48:17,319
Speaker 1: There was this.

1819
01:48:17,880 --> 01:48:19,800
Speaker 4: What happened was a guy called Darryl Bem did a

1820
01:48:21,000 --> 01:48:23,840
psychic prediction study, or it was a quite I think

1821
01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:27,359
it was precognitative dreams. I can't remember or are kind

1822
01:48:27,399 --> 01:48:30,840
of the details. But he published a paper which said

1823
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:33,199
there was something that was beyond chance that certain people

1824
01:48:33,199 --> 01:48:36,000
are getting certain dreams at a certain times or certain experiences.

1825
01:48:36,560 --> 01:48:37,279
Speaker 1: And there was a reply.

1826
01:48:37,640 --> 01:48:41,479
Speaker 4: A skeptic responded by saying that he hadn't used Bayesian inference,

1827
01:48:42,079 --> 01:48:46,119
which is a form of statistic statistical analyst analysis of data.

1828
01:48:46,840 --> 01:48:49,239
And I don't remember any more details than that, except

1829
01:48:49,319 --> 01:48:51,520
I did read I did read both papers years ago,

1830
01:48:52,319 --> 01:48:55,760
and I know that the skeptics didn't buy Bem's conclusions.

1831
01:48:55,760 --> 01:48:58,520
Speaker 3: In the end, Yeah, it's only because this skeptic that

1832
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:03,760
I was debating with online, and I always picked skeptics.

1833
01:49:02,279 --> 01:49:03,479
Speaker 1: Good fun to have a punch up with.

1834
01:49:04,319 --> 01:49:08,880
Speaker 3: So he was basically saying there's no such thing a ghosts,

1835
01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:11,079
and he said that, you know, these people were deluded,

1836
01:49:11,119 --> 01:49:13,159
And I said, well, what happens when he got like

1837
01:49:14,520 --> 01:49:16,880
he is used an example of people with schizophrenia. He says,

1838
01:49:16,880 --> 01:49:19,680
homeless people, they've had schizophrenia, and they hear voices and

1839
01:49:19,720 --> 01:49:21,920
blah blah blah blah. I said, yeah, but what happens

1840
01:49:21,960 --> 01:49:24,119
when you've got two people that have claimed to see

1841
01:49:24,319 --> 01:49:27,000
a ghosts at the same time, you know, they've real quiet.

1842
01:49:27,359 --> 01:49:30,000
And he was saying, oh, but you've got to use

1843
01:49:30,039 --> 01:49:33,560
this basian analysis or something, and I was thinking, I've

1844
01:49:33,560 --> 01:49:35,800
never heard of this term, but I looked into it,

1845
01:49:36,079 --> 01:49:38,600
and you've got to give way and consideration to the

1846
01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:40,640
proper analysis of it all and things like that. But

1847
01:49:40,640 --> 01:49:43,279
I thought, well, even if that these people are still

1848
01:49:43,319 --> 01:49:45,520
not taking that data on board, the fact that there's

1849
01:49:46,119 --> 01:49:48,479
quite a few people that are seen the same ghost

1850
01:49:48,680 --> 01:49:52,279
exactly the same time it's been verified, then they're not

1851
01:49:52,319 --> 01:49:56,039
hearing voices. They're not schizophrenic, they're normal people. I mean,

1852
01:49:56,039 --> 01:49:58,600
I've met a policeman who was with his wife walking

1853
01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:01,199
at some stately home and they saw of ghost walking

1854
01:50:01,199 --> 01:50:03,399
towards them, and in fact, it followed them twice. This

1855
01:50:03,520 --> 01:50:08,760
goes apparently, so they claimed, and uh, yeah, it's just

1856
01:50:08,800 --> 01:50:12,720
an interesting thing that you know. You can't dismiss ghosts

1857
01:50:12,720 --> 01:50:16,479
just as some schizophrenic bloody hallucination can you.

1858
01:50:16,560 --> 01:50:18,760
Speaker 4: Well, the problem is if you if you say something's

1859
01:50:18,800 --> 01:50:25,439
a coincidence, you're essentially positing an unfalsifiable hypothesis because you're saying, well,

1860
01:50:25,640 --> 01:50:28,359
this is something that is physically possible, and no matter

1861
01:50:28,439 --> 01:50:32,439
how unlikely it is, I'm going to accept this rather

1862
01:50:32,439 --> 01:50:34,680
than a paranormal phenomena. If you some principle I'm not

1863
01:50:34,720 --> 01:50:38,560
going to detail, but just I'm gonna I say, you

1864
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:43,399
have to accept every physically possible, every physical possible explanation

1865
01:50:43,479 --> 01:50:46,319
before you accept a paranormal solution. I don't know, I

1866
01:50:46,359 --> 01:50:48,920
don't know why, but they'll just say, well, that's our principle,

1867
01:50:49,119 --> 01:50:52,079
that's a that's a standard we're going to set. In

1868
01:50:52,079 --> 01:50:55,000
which case, then then debunking just becomes an exercise of

1869
01:50:55,000 --> 01:50:57,199
the imagination. You could just say, well, maybe with a

1870
01:50:57,199 --> 01:50:59,279
clown with a day off from the circus, hence my

1871
01:50:59,439 --> 01:51:03,840
term the day off fallacy, because you said there's no

1872
01:51:03,840 --> 01:51:07,399
response to that, I think because you can't say, well

1873
01:51:07,399 --> 01:51:09,640
that what clown, They'll say I don't know. But which

1874
01:51:09,680 --> 01:51:12,079
is more? You know what did it? It doesn't involve

1875
01:51:12,159 --> 01:51:15,520
late monsters or UFOs or ghosts. Therefore we you know,

1876
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:18,760
I've come up with this. I pulled this out of

1877
01:51:18,760 --> 01:51:22,560
my bottom, this entire theoretical model, and we have to

1878
01:51:22,640 --> 01:51:25,119
you have to accept it as real because it's physically

1879
01:51:25,119 --> 01:51:28,319
possible and doesn't involve ghosts. So there, Well, well, why

1880
01:51:28,399 --> 01:51:29,279
is the answer to that?

1881
01:51:29,680 --> 01:51:32,479
Speaker 1: And Andrew mentioned about white feathers and things like that.

1882
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:37,239
Previously I used to be a massive skeptic on white

1883
01:51:37,279 --> 01:51:40,680
feather I really did you know? I had smiled and

1884
01:51:40,800 --> 01:51:45,199
nod and do the pastoral thing, and that's lovely. When

1885
01:51:45,199 --> 01:51:49,000
my mum died in April twenty twenty three, I didn't

1886
01:51:49,119 --> 01:51:52,520
know because it was on the late bank holiday, so

1887
01:51:52,640 --> 01:51:54,720
it was on the start of April. I didn't know

1888
01:51:54,720 --> 01:51:58,239
about it until the first of May and that was

1889
01:51:58,279 --> 01:52:01,279
the bank holiday Monday, and I went back straight away

1890
01:52:01,319 --> 01:52:03,319
to school the next day because what do you do

1891
01:52:03,399 --> 01:52:07,239
your brother's policeman. He sorted out all of the various

1892
01:52:07,279 --> 01:52:09,319
bits and pieces. So, having gone down to the house

1893
01:52:09,359 --> 01:52:13,359
on the Monday, I you know, just said what I

1894
01:52:13,399 --> 01:52:15,159
needed to do, what I felt what I needed to do,

1895
01:52:15,239 --> 01:52:19,000
and then went back home. Going out to the car

1896
01:52:19,359 --> 01:52:23,000
on the Monday. On the Tuesday morning, smack bang in

1897
01:52:23,079 --> 01:52:26,960
the dead center if you get a corner to corner

1898
01:52:27,000 --> 01:52:29,640
of the main panel, not the window, but the main

1899
01:52:29,680 --> 01:52:32,520
panel of the driver's door, was a white feather stuck

1900
01:52:32,560 --> 01:52:35,920
to it. Now, I thought, it's April, you know, it's

1901
01:52:36,000 --> 01:52:40,359
May fledgling birds, all that sort of stuff. Fair enough,

1902
01:52:41,199 --> 01:52:43,359
but I'll keep it just in case, you know, I'll

1903
01:52:43,359 --> 01:52:46,119
put it on the desk. You know. I took it

1904
01:52:46,119 --> 01:52:51,479
as an opportunity to give thanks for Mum. Then my

1905
01:52:51,520 --> 01:52:55,840
wife was later telling this story to my eldest son

1906
01:52:56,520 --> 01:52:59,800
and they noticed a white feather was attached on the

1907
01:53:00,079 --> 01:53:03,680
cop web between her passenger window and the top of

1908
01:53:03,720 --> 01:53:07,319
the pillar front windscreen pillar on that side, there's a

1909
01:53:07,319 --> 01:53:11,000
white feather on it. She said, well, okay, if there's

1910
01:53:11,039 --> 01:53:15,000
something in this, then tomorrow something major will happen with

1911
01:53:15,119 --> 01:53:18,760
the house sale is selling your house, And the very

1912
01:53:18,760 --> 01:53:20,920
next day something major happened with the house sale that

1913
01:53:21,039 --> 01:53:25,600
was really positive and we thought, okay. Now, I'm then

1914
01:53:25,960 --> 01:53:29,840
relaying both these stories to my brother over the phone,

1915
01:53:29,880 --> 01:53:32,840
who's down in the West Midlands. It is a copper,

1916
01:53:33,079 --> 01:53:35,800
as I said before, and it's always got a skeptical

1917
01:53:35,840 --> 01:53:39,239
head on it. And I just told him that last

1918
01:53:39,239 --> 01:53:45,920
bit about the my wife and west son. He goes, huh.

1919
01:53:46,319 --> 01:53:49,159
I went what and he said, I've just opened my

1920
01:53:49,239 --> 01:53:52,800
laptop and there on the people and you can fill

1921
01:53:52,800 --> 01:53:53,359
in the rest.

1922
01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:56,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a white feather.

1923
01:53:56,760 --> 01:54:00,560
Speaker 1: And I was thinking, okay, so that's the confirmation through. Now,

1924
01:54:01,800 --> 01:54:03,800
how did that feather get in there? Well, it could

1925
01:54:03,840 --> 01:54:07,239
have just floated in there, as feathers do. But all

1926
01:54:07,279 --> 01:54:09,720
these three things am I just reading meaning into it?

1927
01:54:09,760 --> 01:54:12,920
I could think. But also I'm actually open minded to

1928
01:54:12,960 --> 01:54:15,279
the fact that maybe there is more things in heaven

1929
01:54:15,279 --> 01:54:18,119
at birth than in our Philosophy's the ratio m hm

1930
01:54:18,520 --> 01:54:19,840
Shakespeare of pended Hamlet.

1931
01:54:22,119 --> 01:54:24,920
Speaker 2: Yes, this is this is the problem. How, how, and

1932
01:54:24,960 --> 01:54:28,119
why things to do with the paranormal spiritual nature can

1933
01:54:28,159 --> 01:54:32,760
never be fully proven because although you know, it does

1934
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:36,720
look like spirits have placed it or loved ones have

1935
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:40,920
placed it in very unusual positions. The fall out position,

1936
01:54:41,039 --> 01:54:43,479
the fall back position of like a skeptic could just

1937
01:54:43,560 --> 01:54:46,520
be will it just coincidentally happen to land here, land

1938
01:54:46,560 --> 01:54:48,479
here and land here, so we can't prove it? And

1939
01:54:48,520 --> 01:54:50,640
this is the this is the annoying thing. But maybe

1940
01:54:50,640 --> 01:54:53,920
this adds the mystery to it. Maybe we need this

1941
01:54:54,000 --> 01:54:55,680
to be like this, so there is some degree of

1942
01:54:55,720 --> 01:54:56,439
mystery still.

1943
01:54:56,279 --> 01:54:59,800
Speaker 1: In it, a little mystery. I'll just say this.

1944
01:55:00,199 --> 01:55:04,640
Speaker 3: I go because we've got to wrap up now. When

1945
01:55:04,680 --> 01:55:10,439
my mum passed away, she passed away very suddenly. I

1946
01:55:10,520 --> 01:55:14,159
was there at the house when it happened, and about

1947
01:55:14,319 --> 01:55:18,199
ten months later we happened to find ourselves, my wife

1948
01:55:18,239 --> 01:55:21,680
and I in a kind of bums on seats filler

1949
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:24,760
people for a kind of an Ouigi board session with

1950
01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:27,279
some people in the local area who ran this Ouigi

1951
01:55:27,319 --> 01:55:29,840
board thing. Her good stories about the whole thing. I know,

1952
01:55:29,880 --> 01:55:32,600
people go Wigi bows, scary, scary, but it was actually

1953
01:55:32,760 --> 01:55:38,760
very interesting. And I remember the vicar at her funeral

1954
01:55:39,760 --> 01:55:43,039
saying because my mum wasn't religious at all, although she

1955
01:55:43,119 --> 01:55:45,159
was brought up as a kind of Church of Scotland thing,

1956
01:55:45,199 --> 01:55:47,159
that was just a label that's tagged around her from

1957
01:55:47,159 --> 01:55:49,640
where her background was, but she wasn't at all. She

1958
01:55:49,760 --> 01:55:54,399
was more interested in the spiritualism unofficial, unofficially sort of thing.

1959
01:55:55,600 --> 01:55:58,000
So I was kind of annoyed when the vicar said,

1960
01:55:58,479 --> 01:56:02,199
I'm sure that when Margaret passed on the first thing

1961
01:56:02,239 --> 01:56:06,560
she did when she opened her eyes, she saw Jesus

1962
01:56:06,640 --> 01:56:10,680
waiting for her. And I was just really silently be

1963
01:56:10,760 --> 01:56:11,560
peed off.

1964
01:56:11,359 --> 01:56:11,560
Speaker 1: You know.

1965
01:56:11,600 --> 01:56:15,680
Speaker 3: When I heard that, I thought, really, grace me, and

1966
01:56:15,760 --> 01:56:17,920
so I was kind of tough to hear. When she

1967
01:56:18,000 --> 01:56:21,640
came through Luigi Board ten months later. I wasn't expecting

1968
01:56:21,640 --> 01:56:23,920
her to come through, but she came through and said hi, son,

1969
01:56:23,960 --> 01:56:25,479
and tested the thing.

1970
01:56:25,520 --> 01:56:25,720
Speaker 1: You know.

1971
01:56:25,840 --> 01:56:28,880
Speaker 3: She gave out a name, gave up her address, gave

1972
01:56:28,960 --> 01:56:31,520
my date of birth, and all these things that were

1973
01:56:31,560 --> 01:56:34,359
totally just you need to her she knew. So I

1974
01:56:34,399 --> 01:56:37,279
started to then ask scientific questions, and I said, so.

1975
01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:41,720
Speaker 1: What happened when you died? What did you do?

1976
01:56:41,840 --> 01:56:44,000
Speaker 3: Go through a tunnel of light or something like that,

1977
01:56:44,640 --> 01:56:47,680
and she said no, sorry. I asked, have you met

1978
01:56:47,760 --> 01:56:49,880
your mom and dad on the other side? I said,

1979
01:56:49,960 --> 01:56:52,800
granny and granddad Bob was what I called them, Granny

1980
01:56:52,800 --> 01:56:57,039
and grandapop, And she said, yes, I have. She goes

1981
01:56:57,439 --> 01:57:00,920
my mum came and met me, and I thought that

1982
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:04,079
was really interested. So in another follow up session about

1983
01:57:04,079 --> 01:57:06,279
a year after that, I said, could you tell me

1984
01:57:06,359 --> 01:57:08,680
more about the fact when you said your mom came

1985
01:57:08,720 --> 01:57:11,439
and met you? And she said yes, when I went

1986
01:57:11,479 --> 01:57:14,880
out of my body, she says, my mum was already

1987
01:57:14,960 --> 01:57:18,159
waiting in the corner of the room to collect her,

1988
01:57:18,279 --> 01:57:20,880
which I thought was really interesting. She made no mention

1989
01:57:20,960 --> 01:57:23,159
of Jesus or God or anything like that. She just

1990
01:57:23,199 --> 01:57:25,479
went on to the other side, whatever that may be.

1991
01:57:26,600 --> 01:57:28,720
Not saying there isn't a Jesus, there isn't a God.

1992
01:57:28,760 --> 01:57:30,600
I'm just saying that she never met him, she never

1993
01:57:30,640 --> 01:57:34,880
spoke about them. But I just kind of I just

1994
01:57:34,920 --> 01:57:36,479
had a bit of a problem with the Vicker, I think,

1995
01:57:36,520 --> 01:57:39,920
and that's my axe to grind, and that he knows.

1996
01:57:40,119 --> 01:57:43,000
But I'm thinking, no, you don't, because you haven't explored

1997
01:57:43,039 --> 01:57:45,039
the side of things like you have, Matt. You've taken

1998
01:57:45,079 --> 01:57:48,560
this ball by the horns that a lot of Christians

1999
01:57:48,560 --> 01:57:51,000
and a lot of religious people that have hammered people

2000
01:57:51,039 --> 01:57:54,920
like me and Andy for exploring. You've taken him by

2001
01:57:55,159 --> 01:57:57,760
and you try to set the record straight, I think,

2002
01:57:57,760 --> 01:57:59,399
which is really really appable.

2003
01:58:00,239 --> 01:58:02,119
Speaker 1: I mean that that thing with your mom would be

2004
01:58:02,760 --> 01:58:08,880
Colin Wilson's done a book on deathbed visitations or visions.

2005
01:58:08,880 --> 01:58:10,760
I can't remember what it is, but that is a

2006
01:58:10,880 --> 01:58:16,520
very common thing. Even Steve Jobs his last words were wow,

2007
01:58:16,720 --> 01:58:22,119
oh wow, oh wow. So some and the hospice workers

2008
01:58:22,359 --> 01:58:26,720
say that people who are passing through see these things.

2009
01:58:26,840 --> 01:58:29,720
So you know, I'm expecting to be welcomed by my mum.

2010
01:58:29,760 --> 01:58:32,399
Although I dreamt I had a visitation in a dream

2011
01:58:33,079 --> 01:58:36,560
a few weeks ago from her, and then following that

2012
01:58:36,640 --> 01:58:39,000
the next week it was basically I've moved to a

2013
01:58:39,000 --> 01:58:43,039
new house, so she's moved on in the afterlife in

2014
01:58:43,079 --> 01:58:46,239
some way left me in a dress, but I can't

2015
01:58:46,239 --> 01:58:47,039
remember what it was.

2016
01:58:50,159 --> 01:58:51,760
Speaker 3: Right, Do you want to give us the name of

2017
01:58:51,760 --> 01:58:52,560
your book once more?

2018
01:58:52,600 --> 01:58:56,760
Speaker 1: Matt? Okay? The book is The Invisible Dimension, Spirit Beans

2019
01:58:56,800 --> 01:59:01,680
Ghosts in the Afterlife by Matthew d Arnol and available

2020
01:59:01,720 --> 01:59:05,680
on all good publishing sites including the Big A.

2021
01:59:05,840 --> 01:59:10,800
Speaker 3: Okay, and you've also got your website, God's Ghost.

2022
01:59:10,680 --> 01:59:13,159
Speaker 1: Ghost Schools and good dot co dot UK. And I

2023
01:59:13,199 --> 01:59:17,920
also edit the Christian Parapsychologist Journal as well. Brilliant, which

2024
01:59:18,000 --> 01:59:20,439
is a publication of the Churchy Scholarship.

2025
01:59:20,640 --> 01:59:22,119
Speaker 3: Now I know by the time this goes out, you

2026
01:59:22,119 --> 01:59:23,760
would have done this. But you're due to go to

2027
01:59:23,800 --> 01:59:24,840
the Ghost Clu.

2028
01:59:25,680 --> 01:59:28,840
Speaker 1: This Saturday coming, which will be November the sixteenth, RBS

2029
01:59:29,079 --> 01:59:36,039
doing the Boltergeist talks at the Ghost Club. Yeah, with

2030
01:59:36,079 --> 01:59:38,600
the extra bits. Because I prepared an hour's talk for

2031
01:59:38,640 --> 01:59:41,319
the ass app and on the Friday morning it was

2032
01:59:41,359 --> 01:59:41,960
only half an hour.

2033
01:59:42,039 --> 01:59:44,680
Speaker 3: So oh yeah, yeah, I was kind of disappointed each

2034
01:59:44,680 --> 01:59:45,720
talk was only half an hour.

2035
01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:47,840
Speaker 1: I was a big gutted about that. Lastly once half

2036
01:59:47,880 --> 01:59:49,840
an hour. Yeah yeah, yeah.

2037
01:59:49,640 --> 01:59:53,159
Speaker 3: But anyway, well done to do that talk, and well

2038
01:59:53,159 --> 01:59:55,479
done for the ASSEPP conference, which we me and Ben

2039
01:59:55,520 --> 01:59:58,560
thoroughly enjoyed. I've never had time to get there next year.

2040
01:59:59,640 --> 02:00:05,000
Any fine awards words Wards, that's my surname, and if

2041
02:00:05,319 --> 02:00:07,880
I find a words Andy or Ben.

2042
02:00:09,319 --> 02:00:13,119
Speaker 4: Well I'll go first. Yeah, I really, I've really enjoyed this.

2043
02:00:13,159 --> 02:00:15,319
It's been great fun and it's been good to talk

2044
02:00:15,359 --> 02:00:18,000
to to Man. Could to soon Neil and Andy again.

2045
02:00:18,079 --> 02:00:20,520
And if we're we're we're all in the process of

2046
02:00:20,560 --> 02:00:23,920
plugging books. Don't forget Rosweld Rising, a novel of disclosure.

2047
02:00:24,359 --> 02:00:27,800
Ten pounds all outlets now that's a that's my book,

2048
02:00:27,800 --> 02:00:30,119
and there's sequels. There's two sequels to that, so please

2049
02:00:30,119 --> 02:00:34,359
do check that out. And in the New World Order, I.

2050
02:00:36,439 --> 02:00:42,159
Speaker 2: Think my book will be called Screw Karstar's a fascinating

2051
02:00:43,319 --> 02:00:47,119
talk today. Really enjoyed, really enjoyed this, and it's interesting

2052
02:00:47,159 --> 02:00:50,199
hearing things from a Christian perspective as well. That's not

2053
02:00:50,279 --> 02:00:53,319
completely disparaging, so that that's quite because the thing is,

2054
02:00:53,319 --> 02:00:56,680
I mean, as humans, no matter what philosophy or what

2055
02:00:56,760 --> 02:00:59,720
religion you're part of, we're all after the same thing,

2056
02:00:59,760 --> 02:01:02,359
which is the truth. Whatever that truth may be. It's

2057
02:01:02,399 --> 02:01:05,560
just different variations of different takes from it. We'll want

2058
02:01:05,600 --> 02:01:08,159
to know is there something out there? What is that thing?

2059
02:01:08,199 --> 02:01:09,680
It's just how we get there.

2060
02:01:10,079 --> 02:01:13,880
Speaker 3: So yeah, excellent, all right, but thank you very much,

2061
02:01:13,880 --> 02:01:16,479
indeed once again to Matt On for joining us on

2062
02:01:16,520 --> 02:01:19,600
the Paranormal peep Show. So this is Neil, Andy and

2063
02:01:19,680 --> 02:01:22,159
Ben and Matt saying good night from the Paranormal Peep

2064
02:01:22,199 --> 02:01:25,520
Show on the Paranormal UK Radio Network and we'll catch

2065
02:01:25,560 --> 02:01:26,119
you next month.

2066
02:01:26,279 --> 02:02:02,920
Speaker 5: Good night, take care. Didn't much mass