1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: Five years ago, I did a podcast with Andrew Gould 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,879 where at the end of the podcast he dropped a 3 00:00:04,919 --> 00:00:09,080 bomb on the conversation and suggested that there is a 4 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:13,839 deep connection between Orthodoxy and pirates. I have to admit 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,440 that I was very offended by that that remark. 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 2: Not only do pirates and monks both live in a 7 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,280 certain asthetical isolation from the ways of the world, from 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,559 the laws of the world. They they both seek their 9 00:00:27,559 --> 00:00:31,320 adventure on a ship. They both accumulate treasure. Of course, 10 00:00:32,039 --> 00:00:35,479 does the monks seeking their spiritual treasure. But even in 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:40,920 a purely material parallel, the monks accumulate actual treasure. These 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,399 two little micronations, the monks and the pirates, existing in 13 00:00:45,439 --> 00:00:47,920 the middle of the world, in the Mediterranean, and you've 14 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,719 got the whole sort of boring, modernizing world, the world 15 00:00:51,759 --> 00:00:57,640 of you know, bankers and merchants circulating all around them. 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 3: So I mean, I, yes, now I understand. So what 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:15,519 do you actually mean is that this is Jonathan Peshew 18 00:01:16,159 --> 00:01:17,799 Welcome to the symbolic world. 19 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,719 Speaker 1: So hello everyone, we are here at the Art of 20 00:01:31,799 --> 00:01:35,200 Tamada in Florida, Keys. I'm here with a lot of 21 00:01:35,239 --> 00:01:39,359 my great friends. Deacon Seraphim is running the camera. Neil 22 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,359 the Gray just walked by, and I'm sitting here with 23 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:44,159 Andrew Gould, and we. 24 00:01:44,159 --> 00:01:46,799 Speaker 3: Thought, you know, five years ago, maybe maybe six years ago, 25 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,959 we did, and Neil, we did. We did a podcast. 26 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: I did a podcast with Andrew Gould where at the 27 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,760 end of the podcast he dropped a bomb on the 28 00:01:56,799 --> 00:02:01,959 conversation and suggested that there is a deep connection between 29 00:02:02,159 --> 00:02:05,480 orthodoxy and pirates. I have to admit that I was 30 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,280 very offended by that remark. But until then, since then, 31 00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:13,120 we haven't talked about it. And I know that people 32 00:02:13,159 --> 00:02:15,840 have actually written emails to Andrews saying, please. 33 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:17,439 Speaker 3: Tell us the secret, what is the connection? 34 00:02:17,879 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: So we thought that being here in Florida would be 35 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,240 the perfect place to finally ask the question, what is 36 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,840 the relationship between orthodoxy and piracy? 37 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 3: And so, Andrew, You're gonna have to lay this out. 38 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: For us, because I have to admit that I have 39 00:02:30,719 --> 00:02:31,919 no idea what you're talking about. 40 00:02:32,199 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 4: What's to do with pirates? 41 00:02:33,759 --> 00:02:38,879 Speaker 2: All right, So, like orthodox monks, pirates flee the world 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:45,000 for their adventure. And not only do pirates and monks 43 00:02:45,039 --> 00:02:49,360 both live in a certain asthetical isolation from the ways 44 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,919 of the world, from the laws of the world. They 45 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,360 both seek their adventure on a ship, the pirates, of course, 46 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,719 on a pirate ship, and the monks in the ship 47 00:02:58,759 --> 00:03:04,960 of the church. And remarkably, in this adventure apart from 48 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,240 the world, they both accumulate treasure. Of course, there's the 49 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,800 monks seeking their spiritual treasure, but even in a purely 50 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:19,319 material parallel, the monks accumulate actual treasure in their in 51 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,400 their separation from the world. Over the centuries, the monks 52 00:03:22,439 --> 00:03:28,240 practice beautiful liturgical crafts. They become icon painters, ecclesiastical jewelers, 53 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,319 and the the Orthodox monasteries of the Old World have 54 00:03:32,439 --> 00:03:35,919 literal treasuries full of full of splendid gold and jewels, 55 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,360 just like a pirate ship. It's it's one of the 56 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:45,120 beautiful paradoxes of monasticism that those who flee the material 57 00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:47,919 pleasures of the world end up in the in the 58 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,360 most beautiful place in the world. The monasteries are the 59 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,719 treasuries of art that can rival any any museum or 60 00:03:54,759 --> 00:03:57,479 any collection of a of a of a royal palace. 61 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,120 So here we have two groups of people. They they 62 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,000 they flee the world. They're apart from society. They're on 63 00:04:05,039 --> 00:04:09,439 their ship. They're accumulating treasures of all kinds, and I 64 00:04:09,479 --> 00:04:12,120 particularly love looking at how they dress. Also because of 65 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,680 course Orthodox monks dress like it's still the Byzantine Empire. 66 00:04:17,439 --> 00:04:21,279 They wear these these these splendid, old fashioned robes that 67 00:04:21,319 --> 00:04:25,600 come from the royal court dress of ancient Byzantium. And 68 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,079 so these these simple monks who in a sense own 69 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,199 nothing or you know, are strutting around, you know, dressed 70 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,959 like princes and emperors. And we see the same thing 71 00:04:34,959 --> 00:04:39,560 in the popular images of pirates, your classic pirate look 72 00:04:39,639 --> 00:04:42,959 with the big broad brimmed hat cocked in an angle, 73 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,639 in the great splendid long coat, and the you know, 74 00:04:46,759 --> 00:04:50,360 the the chorally mustache. This this is all the the 75 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,839 dress of the the cavaliers and the Jacobites of the 76 00:04:53,879 --> 00:04:57,720 seventeenth century. These are the These are the the Royalist 77 00:04:57,759 --> 00:05:01,120 Englishmen who would dress up with this sort of House 78 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,639 of Stuart Catholic swagger in the seventeenth century to show 79 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,319 that their opponents of the Puritans in their in their 80 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:13,639 austere address. And many, many of these you know Jacobites, 81 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,399 supporters of the exiled House of Stuart. You know, they 82 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,040 they went pirate because they weren't welcome back in England, 83 00:05:23,519 --> 00:05:27,160 and so this popular image of of pirates, all these 84 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,319 pirate stories take place in the early eighteenth century, but 85 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,319 the pirates are deliberately dressed like it's the mid seventeenth century. 86 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,160 It shows that they kind of left the mundane, boring 87 00:05:39,319 --> 00:05:42,399 order of the modern world because they remembered a more, 88 00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:46,000 a more glorious period of history, a more a more 89 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,680 royalist period, more conducive to treasure, treasure seeking from the 90 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,399 old days. And they go out in their pirate ships 91 00:05:53,399 --> 00:05:57,519 and they dress like their aristocrats of the age of 92 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,959 the House of Stuart. And so I think, I think 93 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,519 you can see these these beautiful parallels on so many 94 00:06:04,639 --> 00:06:08,800 levels between the monks and the pirates. There's also some 95 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,600 some literal historical connections because the the the Orthodox monks 96 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,120 of the Mediterranean of mount Athos were constantly under attack 97 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:23,160 by actual pirates, the Barbary pirates, And just like the 98 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,680 monks of mount Athos created a sort of a little 99 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:32,240 independent state, the Monastic Republic of mount Athos, the pirates 100 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:37,360 operated little little little pirate states on other Mediterranean islands 101 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,319 and on the North African coast. These these little sort 102 00:06:40,319 --> 00:06:43,680 of these little sort of quasi kingdoms that existed outside 103 00:06:44,319 --> 00:06:48,120 international law, you know, and of course the monks had 104 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:53,079 to fortify their monasteries and defend their monasteries against pirate attacks. 105 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,040 The pirates were always coming there because the monks had treasures. 106 00:06:56,199 --> 00:06:59,720 The pirates wanted those treasures. And so the monks and 107 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,560 the pirates were, in a sense, two sides of the 108 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,199 same society, two sides of one coin. They knew each other, well, 109 00:07:06,319 --> 00:07:08,360 they knew, they knew how to fight, they knew how 110 00:07:08,439 --> 00:07:13,120 to negotiate. So in a sense, you have these, you know, 111 00:07:13,199 --> 00:07:16,560 these two sort of these two little micronations, the monks 112 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,959 and the pirates, existing in the middle of the world, 113 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,519 in the Mediterranean, and you've got the whole sort of boring, 114 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,560 modernizing world, the world of you know, bankers and merchants 115 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,319 circulating all around them. 116 00:07:32,639 --> 00:07:34,959 Speaker 1: So, I mean, I guess now I understand. So what 117 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,000 do you actually mean is that they're opposite to each other. 118 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,279 That's what I'm getting is that in some ways they 119 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,319 they represent two extremes within their in their extreme opposite 120 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,519 end up mirroring, you could say, having a strange, a 121 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,279 strange kind of weird reflection on one side or the other. 122 00:07:51,319 --> 00:07:54,160 Because I mean I think the best way for me 123 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,439 to formulate what I think in terms of the idea 124 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,120 that they' opposite is I is I see I do 125 00:08:02,199 --> 00:08:06,399 see that in some ways, monks are an image of 126 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,040 continuity and pirates are an image of disruption. 127 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 3: Right, So when I think of the fact that. 128 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,319 Speaker 1: The pirates would wear these extravagant kind of passe costumes, 129 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,600 I see it as the kind of caricature of death 130 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:23,519 that there are in some ways carnivalesque in their representation. 131 00:08:23,639 --> 00:08:27,160 They're they're representing a caricature of high society, a kind 132 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,079 of dark a kind of dark inversion that is trying 133 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:35,360 to imitate but also make fun of this type of hierarchy. 134 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,799 And at the same time, and so in the monks, 135 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,440 what they're trying to do is actually preserve the continuity. 136 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,080 And so although there's something weirdly displaced about, like you said, 137 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,360 them wearing these splendid robes, they're doing it in order 138 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,679 to continue something which was threatened and is falling apart. 139 00:08:51,759 --> 00:08:54,240 And so you have these two images, one which is 140 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,080 disruption and with the image of the skull and crossbones 141 00:08:57,399 --> 00:09:02,440 as this image of death, and then the monks also 142 00:09:02,519 --> 00:09:04,360 But it's funny because now I'm realizing that the monks 143 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,279 also have this kind of aesthetic of death, right. 144 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,039 Speaker 3: But it's a but it's different, right, It's some ways 145 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:10,159 it is the difference. 146 00:09:09,799 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: Between Halloween and all Hallows, right, the difference between the 147 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,440 carnival aspect which is characterrol, which is which is h 148 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,080 you know, off off the off the rails, and then 149 00:09:21,159 --> 00:09:24,120 another image opposed to it, which is in some ways 150 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:26,480 the true orientation towards death. 151 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: Right. 152 00:09:26,919 --> 00:09:28,759 Speaker 1: So you could think that the pirates what they want 153 00:09:28,759 --> 00:09:30,799 to do is cause death to others, right, They are 154 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,480 basically there to kill people and to rape into pillage, 155 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,759 and the monks are saying, no, we need to die ourselves, 156 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,799 like we need to be the ones that die. And 157 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,519 you can see that, like you said, in some ways 158 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,519 both will use the image of the skull as an 159 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,080 image of death, but they're they're opposed to each other, 160 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:45,120 that's right, That's right. 161 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 5: Hello there, Well, this is Martin Shaw, and I'm afraid 162 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,480 whatever you had planned for January scrap it. I am 163 00:09:53,519 --> 00:09:57,120 returning to symbolic world gleefully with one of the great 164 00:09:57,159 --> 00:10:01,559 stories of our time, the Epic of Possible, the story 165 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,559 of the Holy Grail itself over five nights I will 166 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,200 be telling the tale. These will not be dry lectures 167 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:16,919 or PowerPoint presentations. This will be wild, old philosophical storytelling 168 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,399 in its deepest dimensions. It is life changing stuff, this story. 169 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,840 I've written a book about it. I've been studying it 170 00:10:24,879 --> 00:10:27,200 for twenty years. I've told it all over the world, 171 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,039 but I have not shared it with you. I've not 172 00:10:30,159 --> 00:10:33,039 shared it with symbolic world. So what else would you 173 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,879 want to do in the great wintering time but to 174 00:10:35,919 --> 00:10:39,159 sit at the feet of this wonderful story and let 175 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,759 me be your guide. I'll see you there. 176 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: But here's an interesting way in which they're not opposites. 177 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,519 One might argue that there's a similarity between them in 178 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,639 that they both sort of pick aside and go all 179 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,679 the way with it. So, you know, in in you know, 180 00:11:02,759 --> 00:11:07,960 in scripture, those who are lukewarm are condemned, and you 181 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,320 can kind of see the monks and the pirates as 182 00:11:10,759 --> 00:11:14,799 those who are absolutely hot, and they're in there. If 183 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:20,360 you're gonna sind choice, just sin yeah, so just just yes, yes. 184 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,480 So of course, you know, you know, what is the 185 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,600 difference between ordinary Christians and monks? I think I think 186 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,799 in a in a in a day to day sense. 187 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,080 The difference is that the monks are the ones who say, like, 188 00:11:31,399 --> 00:11:34,799 if if I believe the Christian story, if I believe that, 189 00:11:35,159 --> 00:11:39,399 you know, throwing myself behind Christ and asceticism is the 190 00:11:39,399 --> 00:11:43,200 way to eternal salvation like nothing else matters. There's no 191 00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:46,600 other moral that concerns me. I'm I'm all in. I'm 192 00:11:46,639 --> 00:11:50,000 absolutely devoting my life to that path, and I'm just 193 00:11:50,039 --> 00:11:54,639 going to utterly leave all of the other pursuits temptations 194 00:11:54,919 --> 00:11:57,960 of the world for that. And the pirates say much 195 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,559 the same thing. The pirates kind of say, you know, 196 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:06,360 I'm I'm all in for like money, money, and pleasure 197 00:12:06,399 --> 00:12:09,600 in the moment, you know, live living, living in the 198 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,559 pleasure of the moment, and the sort of outlaw glory 199 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,679 and excitement that goes with that. That's the only moral 200 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:20,840 for me. It's like no other ethic, no matter how 201 00:12:20,919 --> 00:12:24,720 obvious and basic, applies to me. I will, I will, 202 00:12:24,799 --> 00:12:27,840 i will do anything in the name of treasure, even 203 00:12:27,879 --> 00:12:31,000 though it is the undoubtedly the path to a short 204 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:34,879 life and a swift death. And so again you see that, 205 00:12:34,919 --> 00:12:38,240 you see the the the strange sameness of how the 206 00:12:38,279 --> 00:12:41,720 pirates and the monks think and talk, and then that 207 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,320 that leaves all of the rest of us, all the 208 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,759 normal people of the world, in that sort of lukewarm 209 00:12:45,879 --> 00:12:49,279 middle where we're gonna say, well, we're sort of Christians, 210 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,399 we're sort of on God's side, but we also like 211 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,759 to make money and we also like to be comfortable. 212 00:12:54,159 --> 00:12:57,279 It's like we're in between monks and pirates in our 213 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,080 actual practice, our lives. 214 00:12:59,279 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: And so I see how in some ways that would 215 00:13:02,039 --> 00:13:05,679 explain also why there's a fantasy of pirates, like the 216 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,159 idea that pirates inhabit this space in our imagination and 217 00:13:10,159 --> 00:13:14,240 in our desires. They become an image of the desire 218 00:13:14,279 --> 00:13:16,600 that we have, or the tendency we have to kind 219 00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:19,759 of to stop bothering with all of these constraints and 220 00:13:19,799 --> 00:13:22,879 basically throw ourselves in a kind of nihilist, kind of 221 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,120 nihilist pleasure seeking. And so for that reason, they occupy 222 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,679 a space of fantasy in our life in the same 223 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,399 way that, at least for Christian for Orthodoxricians, the monk 224 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,360 also occupies a place of fantasy in our life because 225 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,639 we know that we're not willing to do that, but 226 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,240 we admire the monks. We admire the people that are 227 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,279 capable of doing it, and we want to get close 228 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,240 to them so that we can kind of get a 229 00:13:44,279 --> 00:13:46,399 little bit of that. But I can see also why then, 230 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,960 because sometimes you wonder, I mean, pirates were ruthless, horrible criminals, 231 00:13:51,279 --> 00:13:54,279 and so the question is why do we fantasize about them. 232 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,159 Why are all these fantasies. 233 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: I think it's because we admire people who are principled, 234 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,360 no matter what the principles are, there's a certain there's 235 00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:09,840 a certain we recognize a certain virtue. I don't mean 236 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,639 a moral virtue, I mean a more abstract sense of 237 00:14:13,639 --> 00:14:17,519 the word virtue. Yeah, we recognize a certain humanistic power 238 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:23,480 in being absolutely behind a principle. It's like the great 239 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,399 the great men who change the world are are the 240 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,399 men who are absolutely behind some ideological principle and go 241 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,759 all the way with it. It's I mean, it's often 242 00:14:32,799 --> 00:14:37,120 a fallacious principle, and their efforts to live it out, 243 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,039 you know, are often murderous and tyrannical, but nevertheless that's 244 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,639 how they become great men in the old sense of great. 245 00:14:44,519 --> 00:14:47,000 And so we recognize that there's a certain human virtue 246 00:14:47,039 --> 00:14:50,879 in this and and going going outlaw and going all 247 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:53,279 the way and doing it with a certain a certain 248 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:58,120 stylistic splendor. Is is it's very very appealing to us 249 00:14:58,200 --> 00:14:59,399 from a human standpoint. 250 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:00,679 Speaker 3: What's the. 251 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 4: What's going on with hooks and peg legs, hotan's pig legs, 252 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,639 eye patches, parrots? But is there a monastic parallel to 253 00:15:09,679 --> 00:15:10,240 those things? 254 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: Well, I think that that especially may the parrot. 255 00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:14,279 Speaker 3: We can think about it. 256 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: I have never actually thought about the parrot, but for 257 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,360 sure the hooks and the peg legs and all of 258 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:21,960 these things are they are an image of incompleteness, there 259 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:24,559 an image of death that you're living with death, like 260 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:25,879 you're living with this. 261 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,519 Speaker 3: You're like a here you're half a human. 262 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: You know, you've lost parts for your desires and so 263 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,480 now and you're assuming it and you're living out you 264 00:15:34,559 --> 00:15:37,000 continue to live with these with with this kind of 265 00:15:37,039 --> 00:15:38,480 crippled nature. 266 00:15:38,559 --> 00:15:41,399 Speaker 2: You know, yes, absolutely the part you know that. 267 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: But there's they turned it into an esthetic. 268 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is different from someone who lost the leg, 269 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,240 you know, because of gangreen or something and they have 270 00:15:48,279 --> 00:15:51,039 a prosthetic leg. The pirate turns it into a kind 271 00:15:51,039 --> 00:15:53,840 of like look at my glory, look. 272 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,799 Speaker 3: At yeah trophy, Like look at what I lost? 273 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,159 Speaker 1: You know, like the surfer that gets bitten by shark 274 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,360 kind of and it's like, this is this thing happened 275 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,240 to me and now I but I'm still I'm still 276 00:16:02,279 --> 00:16:04,440 going on. And so it's turned the hook turns into 277 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,480 a kind of image of power and glory. It's like, 278 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:10,120 look what I'm willing to lose to do this, Like you, 279 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,080 you should be afraid of me because I lost an 280 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,879 arm getting treasure, So get out of my way because 281 00:16:14,879 --> 00:16:16,679 I'm gonna I'm gonna destroy everything. 282 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 3: I don't care. 283 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 2: That's true. That's true. My leg was shot off by 284 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,799 a cannon ball and my arm was cut off by 285 00:16:21,799 --> 00:16:24,919 a cutlass. And yet I didn't I didn't give up, 286 00:16:24,919 --> 00:16:27,679 and you know, get an easy job. You know. That 287 00:16:27,879 --> 00:16:30,639 just shows how all in I am, and it shows 288 00:16:30,639 --> 00:16:37,240 that I'm death is the fact that seeking of treasure 289 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,200 is an outlaw inevitably leads to death does not trouble me. 290 00:16:40,519 --> 00:16:44,080 I'm already literally half dead. Part of my body has died, 291 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,559 and I'm still at it. And the monks are kind 292 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,919 of like this also, you know, And and the holiest 293 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,120 of the monks they take the Great Schema, so they're 294 00:16:53,159 --> 00:16:56,960 literally walking around wearing a burial shroud. So showing that, 295 00:16:57,039 --> 00:16:59,360 you know, I've essentially already died to the world. 296 00:17:01,039 --> 00:17:01,559 Speaker 3: But it's the same. 297 00:17:01,559 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: It's funny because the pirate that type, that aspect of 298 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,680 the pirate esthetic is very similar to to you know, 299 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:11,720 American gangster aesthetics as well. Right, there is this idea 300 00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:14,160 of being shot, you know, I remember fifty cent basically 301 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,599 becoming famous because he was shot, you know, in a 302 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:20,240 criminal lifestyle, and that made him the superstar of that world. 303 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,359 But then also even the aesthetic of the of the 304 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,720 excess of gold and bling and this this kind of 305 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:31,599 caricature of wealth and a caricature of status, which for 306 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,720 people that are actually in the world of status, it 307 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,119 looks like a kind of a like a joke, but 308 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,279 it does function in their own world as a display 309 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,440 of power and status and riches. 310 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: You know. 311 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 4: So we've got some props in front of you. Here 312 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,079 we found a coconut on the beach and also a 313 00:17:48,079 --> 00:17:49,359 bottle of rum on the beach. 314 00:17:49,519 --> 00:17:51,039 Speaker 3: This was brought by swallows, though. 315 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 4: It was so Obviously, piracy has happened in lots of 316 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,319 places in the world, but the only kinds of pirates 317 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,079 that have really captured anybody's of attrivision are the ones 318 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,640 in the Caribbean. Yeah, so what's up with that? 319 00:18:07,759 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 3: I mean, you can. 320 00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:10,079 Speaker 1: I mean I think that has to do with what 321 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,000 you're saying. It has to do with something between this 322 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,400 transition between the old world of monarchy and the modern world. 323 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,880 And they represent a kind of residue of a time 324 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,200 that where the state was not as powerful, where the 325 00:18:23,519 --> 00:18:26,680 kind of bureaucracy of the world was not as solid 326 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,680 as it is now. And you feel this sense that 327 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,960 it was a time when anything was possible, where all 328 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,799 of these things could happen, whereas now you know, it's 329 00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:35,440 like there's too many pirates. 330 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:36,759 Speaker 3: I'll just send a helicopter. 331 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean pirates. Pirates can only throne. Yeah, pirates 332 00:18:42,519 --> 00:18:45,920 can only thrive in a power vacuum between empires. And 333 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,400 that's what we have behind us here in the Caribbean. 334 00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:53,319 Right behind me on my left is Cuba not very 335 00:18:53,319 --> 00:18:57,119 far over the horizon, and on the right the Bahamas. 336 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,640 And so right behind us here we have we have 337 00:19:01,079 --> 00:19:06,440 Spanish and English imperial domains. And it was because the 338 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,799 Caribbean islands were this patchwork of Spanish and English rule, 339 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,240 there was kind of a power vacuum. It was very 340 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,519 easy for people to fly false flags, you know, sneak 341 00:19:18,559 --> 00:19:22,000 past different navies, fined islands that were claimed by no one, 342 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,880 which was true of this island. In fact, the Florida 343 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:31,119 Keys or Outlaw territory through the entire eighteenth and even 344 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,039 into the early nineteenth century, they were claimed by no 345 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:39,400 empire and no country, not until the eighteen thirties. So 346 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,079 the Florida Keys, along the outer banks of North Carolina 347 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,920 and many other islands in between, there were places that 348 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,720 pirates could actually build hideouts, just like in the movies, 349 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,200 and not really be subject to anyone's laws. 350 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: So just thinking about the symbols of a piracy, this 351 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,519 is not so much connected to monastics. But you know, 352 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,119 in some ways, what's interesting about that moment is there's 353 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,720 also a way in which the empires are able to 354 00:20:04,759 --> 00:20:07,759 weaponize pirates to their advantage. Right, So in some ways 355 00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:09,440 it's like, we're actually not going to do anything about 356 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,839 this because we can see how it's damaging the other side. 357 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,359 You know, you see that in a lot of the 358 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,400 Islamic pietry, for example, where you know they're not being 359 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,400 sent by anyone, but we're kind of happy that they're 360 00:20:20,559 --> 00:20:23,519 pillaging sicily, you know, So there's this I think that 361 00:20:23,559 --> 00:20:26,519 there's something about that too, where because of this this 362 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,440 buffer between two empires, they can also exist because maybe 363 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:31,359 the British see them. 364 00:20:31,279 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 3: A little bit as helpful if they're attacking. 365 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, Yeah, for sure. In the Barbary pirates 366 00:20:36,519 --> 00:20:39,480 thrived because you had the you know, the Catholic Empires 367 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,559 of Europe to the north, and you had the Automan 368 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:47,160 Empire that nominally controlled North Africa to the south, and 369 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,640 both the pirates and the monks existed in this in 370 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:56,480 this odd space between empires. You know, the Catholics nominally 371 00:20:56,559 --> 00:20:59,759 ruled Grease at times, the Automan Empire ruled Grease at time. 372 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,440 Nobody really touched Mount Athos. And just like even though 373 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,039 piracy wasn't really legal under the Ottoman Empire, the Ottoman 374 00:21:08,039 --> 00:21:11,640 Empire really didn't trouble itself too much with these North 375 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,680 African coastal pirate city is. Yeah, they existed in a 376 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,000 little bit of a power vacuum, and that power of 377 00:21:19,079 --> 00:21:23,319 vacuum was intermittently helpful to both empires. So you know, 378 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,119 nobody did too much to stop it. 379 00:21:25,599 --> 00:21:26,599 Speaker 3: M Yeah. 380 00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:28,279 Speaker 1: And so do you see a parallel cause I'm trying 381 00:21:28,319 --> 00:21:31,440 to see is there a parallel, opposite parallel in terms 382 00:21:31,519 --> 00:21:35,960 of the monks as being in some ways beyond the 383 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,400 the empire's desires, or are playing a role that is 384 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,440 beyond like the divisions of the empire, Like why was 385 00:21:42,759 --> 00:21:46,119 why did nobody ever care to deal with Mount ATHLETs 386 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,359 And say in that moment of shift between Catholic and 387 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:51,680 and Byzantine power, Let's say. 388 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. I think I think everyone recognizes 389 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,960 that there's some value to society to have monks stand 390 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,559 as I sort of rebuke to the to the decadence 391 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,920 of the world. We don't actually even the decadent people 392 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,599 of the world don't want a world where everyone is decadent, 393 00:22:10,839 --> 00:22:12,920 because the decadent people kind of want to be at 394 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,559 the top of the hierarchy of decadence, which means they 395 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,839 like having holy Men as a foil to that. They 396 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,519 just don't like them being very close at hand. They 397 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:25,680 like the Holy Men being far away on a distant 398 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,960 island where you can you can listen to them if 399 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,640 you want to, and you could ignore them if they 400 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,000 want to. I think everybody was probably pretty pleased to 401 00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:37,599 have to have Mount Athos located at the at the 402 00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:40,839 border between the Venetian Empire and the Ottoman Empire. They 403 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,160 could sort of rebuke either side, and either side could say, 404 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,200 we don't have to listen to you your way over there, 405 00:22:46,599 --> 00:22:47,720 you're beyond our border. 406 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 3: Hm hmmm. 407 00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:53,039 Speaker 1: So I mean, I'm happy to at least hear that 408 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,160 the vision is still a kind of opposite. I see 409 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,519 how you're trying to always connect them together, but that 410 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,759 in fact it is in some ways too. Streams in 411 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,720 uh you know that are that are meeting on the edge. 412 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:06,559 Because that in some ways, that's why the pirates would 413 00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:09,640 attack Montathos is because mount Athos was also kind of 414 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,480 on the edge of the empire. That it that it 415 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,160 wasn't in the middle, like you couldn't attack some monastery 416 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,400 in in the in Constantinople or or you know, in inside. 417 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,039 So there was this contact on the fringe. And in 418 00:23:21,079 --> 00:23:23,279 some it's interesting because you can think about how the 419 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,359 monks also in their extreme practice, they because they are 420 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,160 out on the edge in this way, they also have 421 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,400 this interaction between demons and angels, you could say, or 422 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,079 between the saints and the demons, and they're in some 423 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,160 way closer to the demons than we are, you know, uh, 424 00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:42,160 you know, because they kind of stand on the edge, 425 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,240 and that seems to have been in some ways even 426 00:23:44,319 --> 00:23:47,079 practically when you go to mont Athos, it's beautiful because 427 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,920 it's all fortified, but it's fortified because pirates would just. 428 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,799 Speaker 3: Come and kill the monks and rampays through the monasteries. 429 00:23:55,799 --> 00:23:58,599 Speaker 6: And so how do you see the you know, how 430 00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:02,000 can I say this, like, do you think it's one 431 00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:04,079 of the things we saw with Disney is with their 432 00:24:04,079 --> 00:24:07,160 Pirates of the Caribbean, they were able to give us 433 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,680 a version of piracy that is completely whitewashed. 434 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 3: Right, So basically these. 435 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,759 Speaker 1: Pirates, they're virtuous. They don't seem to be doing anything evil. 436 00:24:15,799 --> 00:24:19,160 They actually don't seem to to kill and rape and pillage, 437 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,680 although they it's hinted very subtly that they do in 438 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,720 a way that they're able to actually present them as. 439 00:24:24,559 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 3: The heroes in the story. 440 00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:29,559 Speaker 1: And so I'm curious to know what you think of that, 441 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,160 the capacity to represent it that way. 442 00:24:32,319 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 2: Well. I love those I love those movies, but it 443 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,440 is interesting how they had to for each movie, they 444 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,359 had to give the pirates some adventure that was outside 445 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,640 of just normal pirrating. You get in the first movie, 446 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,599 in The Curse of the Black Pearl when when the 447 00:24:50,599 --> 00:24:53,920 Black Pearl attacks Port Royal, you get you get your 448 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,119 ownly glimpse in those movies of like what actual pirrating 449 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,440 looks like, where they sailed into a normal town and 450 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,119 blasted cannon balls and run in and kill and steel. 451 00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:05,480 You know, it's and it's very ugly to see. It 452 00:25:05,559 --> 00:25:07,799 kind of sets up this is this is the dark 453 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:13,240 terror of pirates. But then the plot begins, and of 454 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:14,920 course the plot is that they they you know, they 455 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,200 have this curse and there's a you know, there's a 456 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:19,559 there's a piece of gold and they have to you know, 457 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,640 find it and do this magic ritual and and every 458 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,960 one of the movies has some kind of a plot 459 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,200 like that. That is, the plot is more than just 460 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,480 you know pirate agnessy. Yeah, it's it's it's some it's 461 00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:35,359 some legitimate adventure where they have to break some curse 462 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,440 or find some some air to a bloodline. And so 463 00:25:39,559 --> 00:25:42,000 the pirates actually go off on an adventure that you 464 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,240 can really root for them because it's a you know, 465 00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:47,200 it's a great adventure and not an evil adventure. Yeah, 466 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,640 so that is that is that is a difficulty with 467 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,839 pirate stories. Yeah, you have you can't, Yeah, and what about? 468 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 3: What about? 469 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 2: It's kind of the same with monks stories though, it's 470 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,359 like nobody wants to hear the story of a monk 471 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,599 where it's just the monk spent and years fasting and praying. 472 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,400 That's a boring story. Any any like really good hagiography 473 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,480 about a monk, because where the monk has to you know, 474 00:26:07,519 --> 00:26:10,240 go off on some adventure and do something that's like 475 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,480 not normal, you know, just monking. 476 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, monk. And then there's the other story. 477 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: There's the other story which you can come on with 478 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,039 this this Victorian fantasy of the conversion of the pirate. Right, 479 00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:24,000 So in the Pirates of Penzance, you know, if people 480 00:26:24,039 --> 00:26:26,799 know the story with grbrid In Sullivan, there's a sense 481 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:29,640 in which if you were able to call upon high 482 00:26:29,759 --> 00:26:32,599 enough for good, right, if you were able to ask 483 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,039 them to submit or to be loyal to the right level, 484 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,880 that all of a sudden you could transform these pirates 485 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,480 into something interesting, in something more so. In the story, basically, 486 00:26:42,519 --> 00:26:44,559 the pirates are doing their pirate thing, and they're being horrible, 487 00:26:44,559 --> 00:26:46,680 and they're trying to kidnap these girls, and at some 488 00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:49,880 point they call upon their loyalty to the queen, and 489 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,880 they all kind of fall into rank and say, well, 490 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,079 we're still pirates. 491 00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 3: Where you know, we love all this stuff. 492 00:26:55,079 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: But we we love our queen so much that we're 493 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,680 willing to yield and to submit. So obviously, I don't 494 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,640 know if the queen, but the fantasy of in some 495 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:08,640 ways the criminal or the you know, the gangster. You know, 496 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,480 we see that in the story of Old as the 497 00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:13,240 Black for example, the molds of the Ethiopian. That is, 498 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,759 if he is able to see a high enough good, 499 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,759 then that power gets given to the good. 500 00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:21,039 Speaker 3: So I don't know what you think about. 501 00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: That, Well, I agree, I think I think for us 502 00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:27,480 to identify with pirates and root for pirates in a story, 503 00:27:29,039 --> 00:27:31,960 the pirates have to have enough of their humanity left 504 00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:36,880 that that seems possible. If they're if they've degenerated to 505 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,559 the point of being nothing more than the passions, we 506 00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:44,480 really couldn't identify with them as heroes in the story. 507 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,440 But if they seem like broken people that still have 508 00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:54,640 a kernel of virtue somewhere down there, that they can 509 00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:57,160 rise to the occasion of doing good when it needs 510 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,400 to be done. And you see that constantly through the 511 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,440 Pirates of the Arabbean movie. Yeah, that allows for us 512 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,559 to to to root for them as the sort of 513 00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:06,799 the noble outlaw. 514 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:15,599 Speaker 4: So I have two questions. First question, is uh, anything 515 00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:18,440 going on there symbolically, I don't. 516 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,559 Speaker 1: Know anything about. I'm sure Andrew knows about. 517 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,839 Speaker 2: If I know a few sea shanty is, I mean, 518 00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:27,799 they're they're typically just work songs. They're not exactly pirrating songs. 519 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:33,200 There are songs about pirates. Yeah, of course, the actual 520 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,200 reality of historical pirates is they did not live very long, 521 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,000 and they tended to They tended to you know, meet 522 00:28:40,119 --> 00:28:43,000 meet their end, you know, watery Grave. So it's like 523 00:28:43,359 --> 00:28:46,559 if the pirates had actual pirate songs among themselves that 524 00:28:46,599 --> 00:28:50,160 were that were any good, I'm not sure. I'm not 525 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,279 sure any of those survived to us. But there's certainly 526 00:28:53,319 --> 00:28:57,599 plenty of a good ballads about pirates. I love those because. 527 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,599 Speaker 1: I'm sure that in the world of pirates, and that's 528 00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:02,440 important to notice that outside of the story vision or 529 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,279 the mythical version, you know, they were as much in 530 00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:08,440 danger between themselves as they were as what they would 531 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,720 encounter on the outside. Probably had a tendency to kill 532 00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:13,519 each other as much as they did you kill the others? 533 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:14,279 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 534 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 4: The second question for each of you will start with you, Jonathan, 535 00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:20,279 what's your favorite pirate movie? 536 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: What's my favorite? I don't have a favorite pirate movie. 537 00:29:24,119 --> 00:29:26,599 I think that the Pirates of the Caribbean, obviously antip 538 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:27,079 I could know. 539 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 3: Look, I like the. 540 00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: Pirates of the Caribbean, the first movie, but I also 541 00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:34,920 despise those movies for how convoluted and narratively empty they are. 542 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,359 So I like the characterization, of course that Johnny Depp 543 00:29:38,359 --> 00:29:40,880 brings to the pirate and that's really it's fun because 544 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,920 it's so weird and it's so out of whack that 545 00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:46,319 you can't stop but look at this person, because it's 546 00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:48,279 so fascinating to see something like that. 547 00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:50,279 Speaker 3: But I get annoyed with those movies. 548 00:29:50,079 --> 00:29:52,319 Speaker 1: Because it's so convoluted and so I don't even know 549 00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:53,160 what's going on anymore. 550 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:54,119 Speaker 3: Do you know? What are they doing? 551 00:29:54,119 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: What are they getting this one thing so they can 552 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,480 get the other thing, so you can get the other things, 553 00:29:57,519 --> 00:29:59,000 so that you don't even know what's going on. 554 00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 2: I'll tell you my favorite scene in a pirate movie. 555 00:30:02,119 --> 00:30:05,519 This is in Pirates Caribbean number five. I believe it 556 00:30:05,559 --> 00:30:09,640 is watched number five, so in in in movie. 557 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:11,359 Speaker 3: Yeah. 558 00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: So so this is Dead Men Tell No Tales. Captain 559 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:22,960 Captain Barbosa has taken over Queen Anne's Revenge from Blackbeard, 560 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,160 and he's built up a whole fleet of pirate ships 561 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,240 because Queen Ann's revenge is undefeatable among ships. And so 562 00:30:31,359 --> 00:30:35,960 he's now a pirate admirable admiral, and he's unimaginably wealthy. 563 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:39,200 And so you see this scene where he is at 564 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,759 his leisure on his pirate flagship, and he's he's converted 565 00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:50,680 the the captain's chambers of Queen Anne's Revenge into like 566 00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:57,559 an aristocrat's splendid, splendid parlor where all the walls are 567 00:30:57,599 --> 00:31:00,599 gilded and it's just mountains and mountains of treasure. Of 568 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,519 all the decks of the ship are overflowing with gold 569 00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:07,559 and jewels. And he's, you know, he's lying back, twirling 570 00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:11,880 his mustache in his chamber. And and and the part 571 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,680 that absolutely thrills me is he has he has a 572 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,079 little baroque chamber orchestra that he has hired. There's you know, 573 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,599 there's there's you know, a musician there, you know, cellos 574 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,519 and violins and oh it is it is it is. 575 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,799 So he's got his little he's got his little he's 576 00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:32,440 got his little baroque chamber orchestra you know, in there 577 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,480 with him, you know, playing Hondle or something like that. 578 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,519 And he's just lying back, twirling his mustache, the most 579 00:31:39,559 --> 00:31:44,319 successful pirate of all time. And then, you know, and 580 00:31:44,359 --> 00:31:48,200 then his doom comes for him. His doom is is 581 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,240 is the the ghost the Spanish ghost Captain Captain Salazar. 582 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 3: I've already stopped knowing what's going on. 583 00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 2: The movie, but anyway, Captain Captain Salazar, he he essentially 584 00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:04,160 died decades ago. He was lured into some magic cave 585 00:32:05,119 --> 00:32:09,440 by Jack Sparrow. His ship was wrecked, you know, he 586 00:32:09,599 --> 00:32:15,279 and anyway, due to various you know, instances of sea magic, 587 00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:20,519 the Captain Salazar, who's basically now a ghost captain on 588 00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:23,960 a ghost ship, emerges from his cave. And his ship 589 00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:27,559 was a you know, a huge Spanish five decker, the biggest, 590 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,119 the biggest ship's ever built, and huge enemy of pirates. 591 00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:33,759 And he's he comes out as this ghost captain on 592 00:32:33,799 --> 00:32:36,200 a ghost ship, and the ship is skeletal. It just 593 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,799 looks like bones, it looks like the it sort of 594 00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:42,359 looks like the bones of Leviathan, just its ribs and things, 595 00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:45,799 and it comes up to Captain Barbosa's pirate ship, which 596 00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:51,279 is much smaller, and and his his ship, Captain Salazar's 597 00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:54,640 ship opens up like a monster, like like it's going 598 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,799 to be the monster, you know, swallowing job. But it's 599 00:32:57,799 --> 00:33:01,359 this sort of skeletal demon mon stir with a ghost captain. 600 00:33:01,759 --> 00:33:05,720 And it looks very much like the the orthodox icon 601 00:33:05,759 --> 00:33:08,519 of the Last Judgment with as the giant monster coming 602 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,440 coming up, you know, out of the out of sort 603 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,400 of this fiery ocean of hell or to swallow everything. 604 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,720 And it's a it's just a magnificent image of this 605 00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:21,559 sort of end point of the most successful pirate and 606 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,880 his and his end point of hell coming for him. 607 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 3: So I have to say, I just figured out the parrot. 608 00:33:28,279 --> 00:33:30,079 So I'm like, it's just running. I'm like, I need 609 00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:31,599 to figure this out for the end the conversation. 610 00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:35,799 Speaker 1: Yeah no, but that I think that that it is 611 00:33:35,839 --> 00:33:37,880 it's related to this idea of caricature that we're that 612 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,160 I'm talking about when I talk about pirates, is that 613 00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:43,839 the parrot represents an illusion of meaning, right, It's an 614 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,240 illusion of coherence, and it's an illusion of sense, and 615 00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:50,160 so this idea of the parrot is, I think is 616 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,640 an image of the fact that the pirates are this illusion. 617 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,799 Speaker 3: They're this caricature of civilization. Right, they wear all this 618 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:58,720 gold and they. 619 00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: Look like like a kind of joke on an aristocrat, 620 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:04,079 but it's empty ultimately, and I think I think that 621 00:34:04,079 --> 00:34:06,640 that's what the parrot represents it. It is it's like 622 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,159 a it's like a burp, right, it's like this, it's 623 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,880 like this this reaction to to meaning or this this 624 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,360 this fake version of of what meaning is. 625 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 3: What do you think do you think that makes sense yet? 626 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:18,079 Speaker 5: Right? 627 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,039 Speaker 4: So my favorite pirate movie is Aero Flynn Olivia The 628 00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:28,159 Heflin Basil Rathbo Captain Blood, which I think was Flynn's 629 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,719 first film, and to me, it is the It is 630 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,960 the quintessential like swashbuckling pirate film, and it has actually 631 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,440 all of the elements that you're describing. He's basically he's 632 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,760 like a surgeon that helps a wrong person during the 633 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,519 English Civil War and gets driven out of England, and 634 00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:46,559 so because of that he basically ends up taking up 635 00:34:46,559 --> 00:34:50,480 this life of piracy and then totally eventually just totally 636 00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:54,039 gives himself over to it, kind of loses himself in 637 00:34:54,039 --> 00:34:56,679 in the identity of a piracy, and then he meets 638 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,760 this this young woman who he like basically captures from 639 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:01,760 another pirate. 640 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 2: I think is that Eli. 641 00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 4: I think it's Olivia to have a win in that 642 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,280 movie anyway, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. So he meets this, 643 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,039 he meets this young young woman and then basically she 644 00:35:12,159 --> 00:35:15,079 becomes Yeah, basically she becomes a way for him to 645 00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:17,320 redeem himself. In order to do that, he's gotta killed 646 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,280 his big pirate rival and the climactic duel of the film. 647 00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:22,920 So it has actually all the various elements of like 648 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,360 the outcasts and the kind of the dissipation and then 649 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,280 ultimately the big scene at the end. The most quintessentially 650 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,119 English thing to me is this idea that oh, yeah, 651 00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:34,679 you might be a bad guy, but as soon as 652 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,480 as soon as you you know, like, oh but you 653 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:37,760 could do this for the king, you could do this 654 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,519 for the queen, and you're like, oh right, yeah, sure, 655 00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:42,079 didn't think of that before. And so the big thing 656 00:35:42,079 --> 00:35:44,679 that happens is that at the end of the movie, 657 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:50,239 they it's announced them that William and Mary are you know, 658 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:51,920 have come in and they've taken over things, and so 659 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,000 he's they're all pardoned, and so then they're like, all right, great, 660 00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:57,840 let's go kill the Spanish now. And that's how that's 661 00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:58,159 how the. 662 00:35:58,079 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 3: Movie that ends. 663 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 2: Well, I love that ends with a certain redemption. And 664 00:36:03,679 --> 00:36:05,800 I have to say another reason that I so enjoy 665 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,599 Pirates of the Caribbean number five is because it ends 666 00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:15,400 with a redemption like that. For Captain Barbosa. The story 667 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,880 of the movie is essentially that a woman appears who 668 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,239 turns out to be Captain Barboza's daughter, and he's sort 669 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,719 of gradually figuring this out over the course of the 670 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,840 movie that this that this woman is his daughter. And 671 00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:34,039 she challenges him at one point for his lifestyle and 672 00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:37,360 says his treasure worth dying for, and he responds, I'm 673 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,960 a pirate and walks away. Of course, treasure is worth 674 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,760 dying for for a pirate. But then eventually Captain Salazar 675 00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:51,119 comes for her, and Captain Barbosa has a moment of 676 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,599 trial where he the only way he can save this woman, 677 00:36:54,599 --> 00:36:56,920 whom he now realizes is his daughter. The only way 678 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,599 he can save her is if he gives up his 679 00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:03,840 own life fighting Captain Salazar, and in this moment of 680 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:08,719 struggle among the three of them, she pulls back on 681 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,360 his sleeve of revealing a tattoo on his arm that 682 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,239 matches the matches a symbol that she knows from her past, 683 00:37:15,679 --> 00:37:18,760 and she realizes, all of a sudden, in this moment 684 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,119 of death, that he is. 685 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 4: Fun to get those tattoos when your kids are young, 686 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,880 so they know, separate, exactly figure it out. 687 00:37:26,079 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 2: So in this, in this, in this moment of struggle 688 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,840 where it's clear that two of the three of them 689 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,239 are going to die, she suddenly realizes that Captain Barbosa 690 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,559 is her father. And he suddenly sort of makes a 691 00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:42,679 move to put himself in front of her, and she 692 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,840 is astonished, you know, because she thinks he's the worst 693 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,679 of a selfish pirate. And she says, she says to him, 694 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,239 who am I to you? And he just looks at 695 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,960 her and says treasure. And then he gives up his 696 00:37:54,039 --> 00:37:56,920 life to take out to take out Captain Salazar. Oh 697 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,559 it's oh, it's splendid. So the point that point is, 698 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,119 at the very last moment of Barbosa's life, he's actually willing, 699 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,960 He's actually willing to value something something. 700 00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 3: Other hmm, more valuable. 701 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,159 Speaker 2: Than you know, gold and jewels. But he's not willing. 702 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,480 He's not willing to say, like, I'm not a pirate, 703 00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:18,360 I'm not giving up my life for love or family. 704 00:38:18,679 --> 00:38:21,039 It's still treasure. It's just I'm going to say, you're 705 00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:24,079 the treasure. It's it's it's I love that that sort 706 00:38:24,119 --> 00:38:25,960 of partial, partial repentance. 707 00:38:26,079 --> 00:38:27,639 Speaker 4: So one of the one of the things I did 708 00:38:27,679 --> 00:38:30,199 not expect to come out of Art of Automada was 709 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:38,000 a simultaneously from the same person, a take on why 710 00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:41,559 Thomas Kincaid's paintings have bad theology, but then also like 711 00:38:41,679 --> 00:38:44,800 an apologia for the parts of the Caribbean franchise. I 712 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,920 just couldn't have foreseen any of us. This is why 713 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,000 you have to come to these things. 714 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,320 Speaker 1: All right, Yeah, everybody has to come to Florida, to 715 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:51,840 the Keys to hang. 716 00:38:51,679 --> 00:38:52,599 Speaker 3: Out with us for sure. 717 00:38:53,199 --> 00:38:54,280 Speaker 4: All right, thank you guys. 718 00:38:54,119 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks veryone. This was a lot of fun. 719 00:38:56,679 --> 00:38:59,519 Speaker 1: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to 720 00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:02,440 the symbol dot com website and see how you can 721 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,519 support what we're doing. 722 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,039 Speaker 3: There are multiple subscriber tiers with perks. 723 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,760 Speaker 1: There are apparel and books to purchase, so go to 724 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,239 the Symbolic World dot com and thank you for your 725 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:11,679 support