Speaker 1: Okay, we are alive. Hi, this is William Ramsey. Welcome
Speaker 1: to William Ramsey investigates on today's show. Have a very
Speaker 1: special friend coming to us from the UK. His name
Speaker 1: is Dennis Ingram I n G R AM and he
Speaker 1: operates on YouTube. You're watching this on Rock Finn Rumble
Speaker 1: or ex boom Er Black Sheep, you'll see that YouTube channel.
Speaker 1: He's done a lot of original work on the sixties,
Speaker 1: something in an era that I'm very interested in because
Speaker 1: so much change happened during that time. And you can
Speaker 1: read kind of his approach right there on the YouTube,
Speaker 1: kind of front piece, and it's as basically, there was
Speaker 1: a revolution in social norms, including clothing, music, dress, sexuality, formalities,
Speaker 1: civil rights, precepts of civil and military duty, and schooling.
Speaker 1: In the United Kingdom, especially London, the land that spawned
Speaker 1: the Beatlemania, was called the Swinging sisc sixties, and in
Speaker 1: the United States, no small thanks to the British invasion,
Speaker 1: the sixties were also called the Cultural decade. So he
Speaker 1: has some alternative views. He also has the substack page,
Speaker 1: but you can check out and a lot of great
Speaker 1: videos on a bunch of different subjects. But I came
Speaker 1: across him when the Paul is Dead bid kind of subject.
Speaker 1: We were talking in the pre show that I've done.
Speaker 1: I was telling him I've done I think four shows
Speaker 1: with four authors, Mike Williams, Sage of Quay, Tina Foster,
Speaker 1: I had Claire Coon Cooney, Coohen and the most recent book,
Speaker 1: I think it was Marston or whatever her last name was.
Speaker 1: But that was another Paul is Dead kind of subject,
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk more about that. The title
Speaker 1: of this working title is the Maze of Facebook Paul's
Speaker 1: Dead Groups, So we're going to kind of talk about
Speaker 1: there's a lot of acrimony and friction between other researchers.
Speaker 1: We're going to kind of get into that. So Dennis,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1: Excellent. So, people who may not have heard of bloom
Speaker 1: or Blacksheet, maybe you can talk about your background. You
Speaker 1: said you were posting a lot on Facebook and kind
Speaker 1: of what led up to your involvement in the Paula's
Speaker 1: Dead groups.
Speaker 2: I started out by accident. I was looking for a
Speaker 2: new episode of The Higher Side Chats and Veritas on
Speaker 2: YouTube and stumbled across the first interview with Dave McGowan
Speaker 2: about he was being interviewed about his weird Scenes inside
Speaker 2: the Canyon book. And one book led to another, and
Speaker 2: like stepping stones, it led from two English authors, Nick
Speaker 2: Colostrom and Mark Devlin and onto Mike Williams, and from
Speaker 2: there on in I read the Memoirs of Billy Shears,
Speaker 2: and it just so coincided with the first lockdown in
Speaker 2: England twenty twenty and the pandemic, and so I had
Speaker 2: enforced time on my hand, and so I started to
Speaker 2: research the claims in the Memoirs of Billy Shears, and
Speaker 2: one of those claims that the Beatles all had four doubles.
Speaker 1: So the claim is they're all doubles. So not even
Speaker 1: just that Paul McCartney's a double, but these people have doubles.
Speaker 1: What did you what's your conclusion about that claim?
Speaker 2: Well, I started and I started to look at it,
Speaker 2: and I took my time to look, and having listened
Speaker 2: to having followed Mike Williams on YouTube, I decided I
Speaker 2: joined my first Facebook group, the pid Facebook group, because
Speaker 2: people were saying, well, the guests on his show was
Speaker 2: saying that there is no conflict. People can have their
Speaker 2: own ideas and exchange views. But it wasn't quite how
Speaker 2: it worked out for me. I should have observed more
Speaker 2: before I posted what I thought was my research and
Speaker 2: a convincing argument, And what I found was that more
Speaker 2: and more people were posting montages, comparative photo montage as
Speaker 2: just showing Billy as he is, called the Paul McCartney,
Speaker 2: the so called imposta who took over the role of
Speaker 2: Paul McCartney after September nineteen sixty six, and comparing him
Speaker 2: to photos of the pre nineteen sixty six pool What
Speaker 2: I found was that the pre nineteen sixty six pools
Speaker 2: didn't all look the same.
Speaker 1: Wow. That's incredible. It's interesting that we're doing this because
Speaker 1: I just did a show on the GfK. We just
Speaker 1: passed here in the States the GFKE anniversary in tons
Speaker 1: of doubles, So you see this kind of intelligence, strange
Speaker 1: cultural overlap. There were doubles of Oswald, there's no question
Speaker 1: about it. But this is something weird and it kind
Speaker 1: of makes you think that there's the intelligence ties to
Speaker 1: the Beatles, right, So, I mean you've talked about that, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: It was quite by accident really that I found that
Speaker 2: the pre sixty six pools didn't look the same. I
Speaker 2: used the typical pointers that the CIA used, looking at
Speaker 2: different ears ear lob shapes, whether the earlobs are attached
Speaker 2: or unattached by the way Memoirs of Billy Shears is incorrect.
Speaker 2: It is that everyone who plays Paul McCartney has got
Speaker 2: unattached ear lobs. But the people who are trying to
Speaker 2: prove to me and they are correct. There is a
Speaker 2: difference between pre sixty six September sixty six Paul and
Speaker 2: post sixty six Paul that otherwise known as Billy. There
Speaker 2: are massive differences that anybody can see, but there are
Speaker 2: also very subtle differences between the pools leading up to
Speaker 2: that date, and their ears do not match.
Speaker 1: It's incredible. I mean, so they had doubles even before
Speaker 1: sixty eight, So what lead do you think that there
Speaker 1: were other doubles for the other three members of the Beatles.
Speaker 2: I don't. Look. The thing is with Lenin, and because
Speaker 2: it's all about whether he was shot and whether that
Speaker 2: was somebody else it was faked, and all the rest
Speaker 2: of it. I'm certainly not a Lenin expert, but if
Speaker 2: you look at Lenin's nose, then there are massive changes
Speaker 2: in it being hooked and bent over. Some would say, oh,
Speaker 2: well he's been operated on because of cocaine use and
Speaker 2: so on, But there is a big jump even from
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six to sixty seven and the Magical Mystery
Speaker 2: Tour Lenin so then it starts to become hooked. Whether
Speaker 2: it's prosthetics for the Magical Mystery Tour, I don't know,
Speaker 2: but he's different.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's incredible. What do you think the purpose of
Speaker 1: all these doubles was?
Speaker 2: I think from a logical point of view, if you
Speaker 2: look at the touring schedule of the band just in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty three in England, when they're basically trying to
Speaker 2: make it, if you look at the live performances, miming performances,
Speaker 2: it's just absolutely one thing after the other. I don't
Speaker 2: think anybody could humanly play, even if it's only two
Speaker 2: sets of twenty five minutes. I don't think that they
Speaker 2: could bust in a van from one town to the
Speaker 2: other without having somebody step in and help out with
Speaker 2: interviews for instance, and miming on TV.
Speaker 1: Wow incredible, So does that can know? I mean, can
Speaker 1: you deduce them from all that information that these guys
Speaker 1: were handled. It wasn't just some four friends from Liverpool
Speaker 1: or something like that.
Speaker 2: This is always a difficult one and it's about the
Speaker 2: term manufactured. What is manufactured? If you look at other bands,
Speaker 2: some members have been dropped out quite early on because
Speaker 2: it's a face doesn't fit factor. The Small Faces got
Speaker 2: rid of their keyboard player, not literally, they didn't bump
Speaker 2: him off, but they fired him and brought in the
Speaker 2: Ian McLagan, and that's probably because he was tall. With
Speaker 2: Pete Best, he looked like a rocker and all the
Speaker 2: girls like Pete Best, and I rather think that they
Speaker 2: perhaps shows that Paul McCartney would be the baby faced
Speaker 2: darling of the band, so we can't have that sort
Speaker 2: of other image competing with him. So yes, there's manipulation
Speaker 2: there rather than manufacturing, I think. Right.
Speaker 1: So, I mean you've kind of went through the PIDA.
Speaker 1: You went down and looked at all these old pictures
Speaker 1: and things like that, and that's how you came to
Speaker 1: this conclusion that whereas these other PID researchers set a
Speaker 1: date of like September October sixty six, you say that
Speaker 1: it goes all the way. Do you think it goes
Speaker 1: all the way back to the beginning of the Beatles.
Speaker 2: These doubles, I think there's at least two to start
Speaker 2: off with that just don't look the same, and that's
Speaker 2: looking at old cavern pictures. The thing is about this
Speaker 2: is all photographically based. It's all based on photographs. And
Speaker 2: the orthodox pid is that the orthodox I mean those
Speaker 2: who believe there is one and only one Paul McCartney
Speaker 2: before September sixty six and one impostcle Billy afterwards. They
Speaker 2: like to use photographs that they adore on Facebook groups,
Speaker 2: particular Facebook groups. They will look at photos after photos
Speaker 2: after photo of Paul McCartney before nineteen sixty six and
Speaker 2: not notice that there are any differences. But if you
Speaker 2: use the same photographs and say, well, actually this guy
Speaker 2: here has got different ears to this one here, they
Speaker 2: will accuse you of manipulating the photograph. I've been invested
Speaker 2: with photoshop skills that I never knew I had, not
Speaker 2: that I've even got the program right.
Speaker 1: So they're interpreting this, But some of the pictures have
Speaker 1: been tinkered with, Like that's how I became convinced, or
Speaker 1: I got the kind of feeling that Paul was switched
Speaker 1: out or different because there was a time just in
Speaker 1: the news stand here in the States, time picture thing
Speaker 1: about the Beatles, and I'm like, this guy's there are
Speaker 1: morphing faces together. This isn't the pure kind of face
Speaker 1: that you would see, Like they've definitely shopped it, or
Speaker 1: why are they tampering with the pictures?
Speaker 2: Sorry to cut across you there with the Beatles Book Monthly,
Speaker 2: their official publication, manipulated their own photographs and that was
Speaker 2: in the transition stage between Paul and Billy, and they
Speaker 2: were using mustaches, so they'd add a mustache onto old
Speaker 2: pictures of Paul who didn't have one, and that's in
Speaker 2: the Beatles' own magazine. It's rather clumsily done because it
Speaker 2: was done in nineteen sixty six, so they've added a
Speaker 2: mustage to the negatives. There's no photoshot back then. In
Speaker 2: terms of manipulation, it's the bit of a case of
Speaker 2: somempy ideas. Want their cake and eat it. They want
Speaker 2: to worship or adore one photograph of Paul, but you can't.
Speaker 2: They don't allow you to use that same photograph and
Speaker 2: another one that they've been adoringly pouring over to show
Speaker 2: that they are different. I think in terms of manipulation,
Speaker 2: I think it's more a case that the photographs have
Speaker 2: been uploaded, downloaded, uploaded, shared. They're like a mongrel dog.
Speaker 2: You just don't know their b deigree anymore. And that's
Speaker 2: why I use photographs that have been pre published, that
Speaker 2: have been taken from screenshots of the Beatles' films, their
Speaker 2: album covers, their own publications, and anything that's got associated
Speaker 2: press on it or Getty images or something that is
Speaker 2: being validated, rather than something from Pinterest or another source
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: Right now, it's incredible, and there's just so much evidence
Speaker 1: that he's been switched out. You talk about the mustache,
Speaker 1: there's weird beards. There's just so many subtle changes in
Speaker 1: this guy's face. I was watching Strawberry Fields Forever, very
Speaker 1: dark lyrics, by the way, which I didn't key into
Speaker 1: when I was a kid. You know, now that I'm older,
Speaker 1: I can kind of see the kind of mind control stuff.
Speaker 1: But clearly a different guy, just like unbelievable. Like it's
Speaker 1: obviously not the original Paul McCartney, and they put him
Speaker 1: right out there.
Speaker 2: They did, but it's very subtle. I mean, we didn't
Speaker 2: see Paul McCartney or the Beatles for some time. I
Speaker 2: first saw Billy when he was on top of the
Speaker 2: Pops and they showed the Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane
Speaker 2: promotional videos. But we weren't programmed then to think in
Speaker 2: conspiratorial terms. It was Paul McCartney. It's a composite. It's
Speaker 2: just Paul McCartney, and that's who we thought it was.
Speaker 2: I didn't even believe in the pid thing at all.
Speaker 2: I heard about twenty eight if the registration of the
Speaker 2: White Beetle car on Abbey Road, but I just dismissed
Speaker 2: it at the time. But when I saw Billy rocking
Speaker 2: away there too on the rooftop, it was so embarrassingly
Speaker 2: bad the movements that I just felt so embarrassed for
Speaker 2: him and thought, well, you know, they just put me
Speaker 2: straight off. I just thought it was laughable. It wasn't
Speaker 2: the Beatle that I remembered.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's remarkable. So that's the show they did in
Speaker 1: what was that in London or New York City? The
Speaker 1: rooftop one where John's wearing the furs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's saddle on top of the Saddle building and
Speaker 2: they were singing get Back and a few other numbers
Speaker 2: and not very many and the police came up and
Speaker 2: I think that was stage they stopped the recording of
Speaker 2: the plane. But what's interesting to notice is that when
Speaker 2: it comes to photographs, if we take the photograph of
Speaker 2: Paul that was the first to appear on the Daily
Speaker 2: Mirror front page back in October nineteen October nineteen sixty three,
Speaker 2: the guy's got a horizontal scar under his chin and
Speaker 2: it's plain to see. So that's the very very first
Speaker 2: photograph on a British front page nineteen sixty three. That
Speaker 2: scar appears throughout if you follow that particular Paul, you
Speaker 2: can find him in nineteen well, you can find him
Speaker 2: singing I Want to hold your hand on the Edge
Speaker 2: Sullivan Show. You can find him singing on the German Tour.
Speaker 2: But then you can also find him in the seventies,
Speaker 2: in the eighties, and it's you can say, also find
Speaker 2: him being photographed with Done is deceased wife, and you
Speaker 2: can find him photographed with Heather, the divorce wife. So
Speaker 2: not every Paul died. And that was the point of
Speaker 2: that video that I did, and it's on YouTube now.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's incredible. So there were distinguishing characteristics. They had
Speaker 1: a scar on his chin, which you can clearly see
Speaker 1: also cut on his lip right that they kind of
Speaker 1: had a fake.
Speaker 2: Oh well, the that scar on the lip, they that
Speaker 2: came from the alleged moped crash December Boxing Day, December
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five. But it came back even larger in
Speaker 2: the if you look at the video in Strawberry Field's
Speaker 2: and Penny Lane. Now some mainstream Beetle fans will say, well,
Speaker 2: maybe it became reinfected and it swelled up to twice
Speaker 2: asie as it originally was. But come, paperback writer, that
Speaker 2: scar healed. So you know that the scar comes and goes.
Speaker 2: Which is another video that's of mine that's on YouTube
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: So the scars come and go. He's got something on
Speaker 1: his chin. He also has a chipped tooth here and there, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the chip the chip tooth was repaired before the
Speaker 2: German tour of sixty six. The scar on the chin,
Speaker 2: the horizontal scar underneath, does not disappear. That goes throughout
Speaker 2: the years. And then talking about chins, there isn't one
Speaker 2: pool with a cleft or a dimple which is created
Speaker 2: by bone structure of the jaw, so it's not going
Speaker 2: to disappear. Kirk Douglas had his all his life, and
Speaker 2: so did Robert Mitchen. But then there are other pools
Speaker 2: where he's got a totally smooth round round chin, no cleft,
Speaker 2: no nothing.
Speaker 1: It's just so incredible when you the enormity and you
Speaker 1: did a video on the Tavistock like how much of
Speaker 1: the like? There's John Coleman's Committee of three hundred and
Speaker 1: all this stuff. He makes allegations about Adorno. People have
Speaker 1: discounted those. What's your thought about how much Tavistock influenced
Speaker 1: the Beatles.
Speaker 2: I think that Tavistock has been dumbed down and repeated
Speaker 2: and parroted to the point where it's lost or meaning
Speaker 2: it's a lot more complicated than that.
Speaker 1: Could you expand on that then?
Speaker 2: Yeah. For instance, there's absolutely no evidence to say that
Speaker 2: Coleman actually was a spy. If you can get onto
Speaker 2: his website, which I can't because I keep getting virus warnings,
Speaker 2: there's nothing there on his profile, but I have read
Speaker 2: the Committee of three hundred and on page one he
Speaker 2: writes that on the thirtieth of April nineteen eighty one,
Speaker 2: he wrote a monograph disclosing the existence of the Club
Speaker 2: of Rome, well, that's nineteen eighty one, but that was
Speaker 2: already known. The Club of Rome was already known in
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies. A newspaper articles mentioned the Club of Rome,
Speaker 2: including numerous reviews on their paper The Limits of Growth.
Speaker 2: So anybody who's got access to Google could find out
Speaker 2: that what doctor John Coleman is saying there and claiming
Speaker 2: as if you like his exclusive isn't an exclusive at all.
Speaker 1: Interesting. And I mean there's other things going on. You
Speaker 1: write about communism hypnotism, can you kind of you did
Speaker 1: a couple of videos on that. Can you explain how
Speaker 1: that's involved in the whole Beatles mania.
Speaker 2: It comes from a book that a title of a
Speaker 2: pamphlet of American evangelist preacher brought out the name of him,
Speaker 2: I can't remember at the moment, but it basically lays
Speaker 2: claim that the Beatles were trying to instill communism into
Speaker 2: society and bring about cultural change. This is basically the
Speaker 2: same argument that those who were mentioned the Tavistock and
Speaker 2: support the Tavistock theory. It's been they basically simplify the
Speaker 2: Tavistock Institute theory. But that's the complicated matter that perhaps
Speaker 2: we'll touch on at a different time. But the communism's
Speaker 2: part and the Beatles. Our own Church of England really
Speaker 2: actually quite liked the Beatles eventually because they could see
Speaker 2: it if they mimic the Beatles or introduce their music
Speaker 2: into the church then and adopted them, then they were
Speaker 2: they would encourage more young people to go to church,
Speaker 2: especially the Church of English. And there was already in
Speaker 2: decline at that point. We didn't need Tavistock or the
Speaker 2: Beatles to bring the Church of England into into decline.
Speaker 2: They managed to do that all on its own.
Speaker 1: Hmm. Interesting was that was the book by? Was it
Speaker 1: they sold their souls for rock and roll? Does that
Speaker 1: sound right?
Speaker 2: No, it's a pamphlet that was brought out at the
Speaker 2: time by an evangelist.
Speaker 1: Oh, David Noble, that's it. That's hypnotism and the Beatles
Speaker 1: another book I have to get. Do you think that
Speaker 1: there's hypnotism involved with the Beatles?
Speaker 2: And I do, but I don't. I think it's more
Speaker 2: to do with Tavistock and dr Asher and Stephen Ward.
Speaker 2: There's certain manipulation on the go.
Speaker 1: Right Ward is an interesting character. I've done a show
Speaker 1: about Ward. I'm very familiar with the kind of Profumo affair,
Speaker 1: Profumo affair and things like that. I mean, how in
Speaker 1: the black magic actually Ward who added kind of a
Speaker 1: presence here in the States for a minute minute, that's
Speaker 1: where he went to get his degree. But how does
Speaker 1: he tie into all of us.
Speaker 2: Well, stephen Ward and Christine Keeler and Mandy Rice Davis
Speaker 2: and the Astors, especially the stephen Ward. He was good
Speaker 2: hypnotizing people. He was a good manipulator. He was also connected,
Speaker 2: as you know, to most of the movers and shakers
Speaker 2: and the royalty, the upper crust. So they were at
Speaker 2: the forefront of the sexual revolution, if you like. Some
Speaker 2: would argue in parallel with the Beatles, but that's I
Speaker 2: think an exaggeration really, factually and statistically, that is an exaggeration.
Speaker 2: A lot of the things that were supposed to have
Speaker 2: happened in the sixties actually happened in the seventies.
Speaker 1: Is terstic. I mean Ward was, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: he had a place on the Astor estate. Right, So
Speaker 1: he's like keyed into other important intellectual movements in the sixties, right,
Speaker 1: was it the Cleving Climbington set or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the the Clyde and sets and there's there's also
Speaker 2: the the Ministry of Defense chief Perfumer himself. But he
Speaker 2: wasn't squeaky clean Perfumer. He'd had affairs before, keither he was.
Speaker 2: He wasn't a case that that's the only affair that
Speaker 2: he had.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the one he got, the one he got
Speaker 1: caught for, right.
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, but he wasn't squeaky clean. He was
Speaker 2: no saint. And basically they they they were they were
Speaker 2: cool girls. They were a good time girls. Showed girls
Speaker 2: that had been linked with gangsters and linked with the
Speaker 2: nightclubs and so on.
Speaker 1: Right there in that environment, the Cray Brothers and a
Speaker 1: lot of interesting characters in the sixties. A lot OF's
Speaker 1: still rough. I mean, I think Crowley's kind of like
Speaker 1: air was friends with the craze and hanging out all
Speaker 1: those guys. Tom dreiberg right, do you know if Tom Driver?
Speaker 2: I know I've done a video on him as well.
Speaker 2: KGB alleged double agent m I five. He was the
Speaker 2: chairman of the Labor Party, I believe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like the top top post in the kind
Speaker 1: of left in the UK.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was gay, probably had the craze, arranged rent boys,
Speaker 2: for him and for for Brian Epstein, and then there's
Speaker 2: a law boothby case it's linked in with with him
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: Right, so both sides of the aisle, so to speak.
Speaker 1: And there's pictures of Dryberg and Booth be together like
Speaker 1: there's there there are chums, and you can type Dryverer
Speaker 1: to Crowley, Maxwell Knight and also the what is it
Speaker 1: the Five Spies right the yeah, I forgot he went
Speaker 1: to he went to Russia to talk with one of
Speaker 1: the Cambridge Five, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you can you can tie in with Christopher Lee,
Speaker 2: the Christopher Lee video that I've done about the McCartney's
Speaker 2: friends on the cover of Band on the Run. You
Speaker 2: can tie tie all of them back to Ian Fleming
Speaker 2: as well, who was Christopher Lee's step cousin. And Dennis Wheatley,
Speaker 2: the author of of all the the books about Satanism
Speaker 2: and the Devil.
Speaker 1: And so on, The Devil Rides Out. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: Wheeley was actually influenced on Fleming. Fleming said he based
Speaker 1: James Bond, the probably the most well known spy movies
Speaker 1: and books and world history on Wheeley books. So there's
Speaker 1: like the weirdest kind of weird cultural nexus.
Speaker 2: I first heard about Crowley through Dennis Wheatley and his
Speaker 2: book and the Devil in all his works, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wrote like a lot of the coult stuff.
Speaker 1: He's actually very interesting guy. His daughter's around. She's like,
Speaker 1: she's involved in kind of ancient kind of UK you know,
Speaker 1: folk sites or whatever, like, uh, monoliths and stones and stuff.
Speaker 1: So she's around. I tried to get to talk to her.
Speaker 1: She wouldn't, she wouldn't come on the show. But uh,
Speaker 1: it is interesting how all these guys, uh this fake
Speaker 1: Paul Live and Let Die the famous song, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is it so like the culture lasted past the
Speaker 1: Beatles and for people don't know, the Beatles kind of
Speaker 1: mysteriously stopped or quote the Beatles unquote stop touring in
Speaker 1: sixty six, right, kind of at the apex of their fame,
Speaker 1: is that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And it did Candlestick Park in San Francisco that
Speaker 2: was their last last concert.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, all this stuff. By the way,
Speaker 1: Dennis Wheeley has a signed copy of Alister Crowley's Magic
Speaker 1: e Theory and Practice, and I have a copy of
Speaker 1: that in my book Children of the Beast. So whel
Speaker 1: people in the States, they don't know much about Driver
Speaker 1: and Wheatley, but they should.
Speaker 2: Well. Christopher me he was great mates with with Weekly
Speaker 2: and that The Devil in all his works is not
Speaker 2: a novel, it's not fiction.
Speaker 1: It is a.
Speaker 2: Serious book that that weakly put out. And that's where
Speaker 2: I heard about Crowley, and they set me on a
Speaker 2: path to learn more about him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my first book, Profit of Evil. You can
Speaker 1: read that as somebody who's not into you know, somebody
Speaker 1: a student of black magic, not a practitioner, because there
Speaker 1: are biographies of Croley by practitioners, which you'll get a
Speaker 1: very different side. Have you ever read they used Dark Forces? No,
Speaker 1: I haven't. It's about the Nazis. It's supposedly fiction, but
Speaker 1: you know, you can see a lot more things in
Speaker 1: supposed fiction than maybe the uh, you know, a factual
Speaker 1: thing like that. But it's it's crazy.
Speaker 2: If people watch my Christopher Lee video, they'll see that.
Speaker 2: I think that a lot of what Ian Fleming said
Speaker 2: in fiction regard Inspector, he was actually it was actually
Speaker 2: the Spinet or the Spider, which is Martin Borman's worldwide
Speaker 2: business network. So what he said in fiction was based
Speaker 2: on fact.
Speaker 1: I think you're right, because he actually uses La cirque,
Speaker 1: which is a known kind of fascist thing. So some
Speaker 1: of the he's revealing exposing stuff. People think it's fictional,
Speaker 1: it's not. And he was fleming for people who don't know.
Speaker 1: Was a very successful member of I think the Naval
Speaker 1: Intelligence and they even his boss said he was a
Speaker 1: war winner. He was very clever doing all kinds of
Speaker 1: raids and psychological operations, and he had an interest. There's
Speaker 1: a picture of him with Lucky Luccia, know, like incredible
Speaker 1: stuff like he just couldn't talk about it because of
Speaker 1: the National Secrecy Act. But he wasn't some desk jockey,
Speaker 1: as my understanding, did you get that impression.
Speaker 2: No, he wasn't. And there is another book that's supposed
Speaker 2: to be fiction, and that is BOP JB. And that
Speaker 2: is the extrication of Martin Borman from nineteen forty four
Speaker 2: in Berlin, because Borman survived and Paul Manning, a leading
Speaker 2: American journalist, has wrote a book. He wrote a book
Speaker 2: about Borman's escape for Berlin and his network. Wow, it's
Speaker 2: quite tedious in place in an accountant would absolutely love it.
Speaker 2: There's something like seven hundred and fifty front companies set
Speaker 2: up through in neutral countries.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's incredible. It's almost like Otto Skorsni who had
Speaker 1: this kind of huge network too. He's probably keyed into that,
Speaker 1: didn't know it. But you know, Martin Borman had ten
Speaker 1: kids and some of them are in the States to
Speaker 1: this day. I don't know, I will tell you how
Speaker 1: I know that, but they're around. It's incredible, like the grandkids.
Speaker 2: You know, Oh yeah, at school saying he is quite
Speaker 2: quite a character, wasn't he. He he managed to get
Speaker 2: Mussolini out and he was a Prussian soldier with the
Speaker 2: Jordan scar and all the rest of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, he's almost like out of But apparently
Speaker 1: he's used as a kind of by Fleming as kind
Speaker 1: of like a character, and one of was much like Crowley.
Speaker 1: The shift in Casino Royales based on Crowley. So he
Speaker 1: use these kind of real characters he knew for his
Speaker 1: show inspiration, so to speak, Plumbing. I mean, it's incredible
Speaker 1: because the culture of the Beatles and Fleming worldwide right
Speaker 1: at the same time. Really, I think Kennedy was reading
Speaker 1: Fleming too, you know, John GfK and The White House.
Speaker 1: So this is all taking place in the sixties, overlapping
Speaker 1: with each other, right, all them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But ironically Croley died in obscurity in nineteen forty seven,
Speaker 2: the heroin that eight.
Speaker 1: In Hastings, right, yeah.
Speaker 2: In Hastings, and the only people that were getting excited
Speaker 2: about it were the local church because they were expecting,
Speaker 2: literally for the devil to ride out around Hastings and
Speaker 2: after Croley died, but nothing happened. It is hardly anybody
Speaker 2: knew anything about him. I think it's ashes that now
Speaker 2: are in America somewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's correct. They're kind of either a hidden or
Speaker 1: misplaced location, but yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think it's since
Speaker 1: somewhere in Virginia's where they were last scene. But maybe
Speaker 1: somebody has them. I don't know, but yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: is it is interesting that he he got higher repute
Speaker 1: after his death and he predicted the birth of the child,
Speaker 1: the birth of the child of Horst, would be in
Speaker 1: the sixties, So it coincides with so much cultural change,
Speaker 1: kinter cultural change. I mean that stark contrast between the
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties is obvious. But yeah, so learyly love
Speaker 1: Crowley as.
Speaker 2: It's interesting to look though, if we say Okay, so
Speaker 2: the Beatles didn't happen, what would have happened in England
Speaker 2: because that's where it all started and according to the
Speaker 2: predictions of the melody maker at the time, the way
Speaker 2: things that we're going to go, the next wave of
Speaker 2: popular music would be jazz interesting and not because that's
Speaker 2: why they were saying that, oh, guitar based music is dead.
Speaker 2: That's one of the reasons why one label didn't didn't
Speaker 2: sign the Beatles. We thought guitar bassed music has had
Speaker 2: it that jazz is the way to go. And it's
Speaker 2: funny that English subculture, the Mods, they started off liking
Speaker 2: and listening to modern jazz and then moved into soul
Speaker 2: and blues and scar and so on. The Beatles started
Speaker 2: out as rockers. The Mods never listened to rock music
Speaker 2: and they didn't listen to the Beatles. The Beatles were
Speaker 2: too mainstream to be considered by the Mods and be
Speaker 2: on their playlist. So whether it they developed into the
Speaker 2: Mods still would have come about listening through listening to
Speaker 2: modern jazz. That's that's another thing. The rockers, on the
Speaker 2: other hand, you might have heard of the Mods and rockers.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, I mean that culture kind of at least
Speaker 1: when might when I was younger, kind of blood over
Speaker 1: the who and kind of some of that. I can't remember
Speaker 1: where they used to drive around in the motorbikes and
Speaker 1: stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Those are the mods, right, No, no, no, no, the
Speaker 2: mods were riding around on my Italian scooters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I meant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when they were working and the rockers, they based
Speaker 2: their style on nineteen fifties White America and rock stars.
Speaker 2: Interesting Elvis Presley and so on. Well, Elvis Presley didn't
Speaker 2: cut it for me. I was a mode at the time.
Speaker 2: They're all somebody that there were previous generations music. They're
Speaker 2: old hat. I mean Bill Haley. He looked older than
Speaker 2: my father in the sixties, right right.
Speaker 1: Wild Who was Clement Florid freyd You have this band
Speaker 1: of friends sections of your most recent work, Kenny Lynch,
Speaker 1: Christopher Lee who everybody should know. Yeah, maybe Clement Freud
Speaker 1: is a little bit more mysterious, but kind of ties
Speaker 1: in and it's been exposed recently. Right.
Speaker 2: He was exposed in a documentary in twenty sixteen. But
Speaker 2: before that he was a national treasure. He was knighted.
Speaker 2: He was a liberal MP for Ely in Cambridgeshire. He
Speaker 2: was on radio quiz shows, very sarcastic, very witty and
Speaker 2: loved by it by lots of people. He started off
Speaker 2: advertising dog food but because he had the features of
Speaker 2: a bloodhound, so he used to appear on television sat
Speaker 2: next to a bloodhound. And before that, though as a
Speaker 2: master chef, he run there. He was working at the
Speaker 2: Dorchester Hotel Wow. But he also had linked with the
Speaker 2: likes of Rolf Harris, who was another national treasure who
Speaker 2: turned out to be a pedophile.
Speaker 1: Just like Sable. Right, there's pictures of like all these
Speaker 1: guys in with sal like very dark, like I've done
Speaker 1: chills on.
Speaker 2: But Saba wasn't caught. Neither was Clement Freud. But Rolf
Speaker 2: Harris was caught. But he painted the portrait of the Queen.
Speaker 2: They both Sable and Rolf Harris did TV shows. Rolf
Speaker 2: Harris has even played Glassery Festival.
Speaker 1: It's incredible, it's incredible stuff. But Freud, I mean Freud
Speaker 1: was associated with the Beatles, or with Fall or whatever.
Speaker 2: Right, he appeared on the band on the Run and
Speaker 2: on the video I've included an audio clip of Fall
Speaker 2: saying about how he met him and if you look
Speaker 2: on the McCartney project is basically he chose the people
Speaker 2: quite random people, which is why I looked at them
Speaker 2: for that album cover, purely based allegedly on the names
Speaker 2: that he had in his diary that were free that day.
Speaker 2: So he had Kenny Lynch, and he did have links
Speaker 2: with Kenny Lynch because Kenny Lynch originally toured with the
Speaker 2: Beatles in their first UK WI tour back in February
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty three. Kenny Lynch was a singer in his
Speaker 2: own right and a songwriter as well.
Speaker 1: And Freud, I mean, is famously part of the Freud family. Right,
Speaker 1: FREYD makes it to London eventually, if I remember correctly, Yeah.
Speaker 2: He comes, Yeah, it comes back from London from France
Speaker 2: having run a hotel. Then works his way up through
Speaker 2: TV adverts, the TV ads and radio and various panelist
Speaker 2: shows and so on. And I think he was a
Speaker 2: Liberal MB for about seventeen years. And then when he
Speaker 2: lost the election, oddly enough, they gave him a knighthood.
Speaker 2: It's like giving a guy a prize for losing.
Speaker 1: Wow, amazing, It's just an amazing sense of a series.
Speaker 1: And then Tavistock's brought up again because I think that
Speaker 1: Freud was somewhere at one of those clinics, right.
Speaker 2: Freud himself, Sigmund Freud was opposed boy of the Tavistock
Speaker 2: Clinic and the Tavistock Institute related in there is the
Speaker 2: King of marketing or if you like, propaganda, which is
Speaker 2: Edward Burnet. He's the guy who was convincing women to
Speaker 2: smoke even though it was considered not the thing to do,
Speaker 2: and he was convinced it could have convince people to
Speaker 2: introduce fluoride into water as well, and quite a few
Speaker 2: other I heard.
Speaker 1: He was involved in making bacon a morning staple like
Speaker 1: bacon that was the belly was like the throwaway part
Speaker 1: of of the of the animal at that time, because
Speaker 1: that's my understanding. Don't quote me on that, but.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that, but you can quote you can
Speaker 2: quote me on Burnet is. Actually he was behind the
Speaker 2: Guatemala and bringing down a Guatemale and democratic electric.
Speaker 1: Gunns, right are bends, Yeah, yeah, which is a whole
Speaker 1: full CIA operation. That was another one right after either
Speaker 1: before after Iran. Right, So yeah, what a tapestry. I mean,
Speaker 1: so much going on, it's just off the charts, this
Speaker 1: crazy stuff so many dark characters. Holy smokes, I'm.
Speaker 2: Happy sorry to cutting that I could have made the
Speaker 2: video rather than twenty six minutes about Clement Freud, I
Speaker 2: could have easily have made it an hour. And people
Speaker 2: say to me, oh, oh, you missed this pizza out
Speaker 2: and you missed that part out. And I don't know
Speaker 2: who would watch a video and listening to me droning
Speaker 2: on for an hour. But yeah, they're all connected, and
Speaker 2: it's the deeper you dig, the more connections you find.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's it's it's very it gets very dark,
Speaker 1: like word was very dark. Saval was super dark and
Speaker 1: probably new. I mean he knew all like the hand
Speaker 1: signs that the Beatles knew, you know, all this kind
Speaker 1: of like um initiated all that stuff. But yeah, that
Speaker 1: picture of that you have of Christopher Lee Freud and
Speaker 1: Billy and a couple other interesting characters really something else
Speaker 1: when you look at it, you know, in perspective with
Speaker 1: the lens that you have now, because all this stuff,
Speaker 1: like people didn't know what was going on behind the
Speaker 1: scenes back then, there was no way to critically analyze
Speaker 1: all this stuff, right, No.
Speaker 2: There wasn't. I mean, the internet does help out, but
Speaker 2: I think that you if you have the cultural background,
Speaker 2: the social cultural background that is British orientated, then you're
Speaker 2: more likely to look into it because you've seen these
Speaker 2: people as national treasures on TV and heard them on radio.
Speaker 2: And that video with Chris Relee starts off with an
Speaker 2: American guy stopping Clement Freud in San Diego and he goes, oh,
Speaker 2: you're that guy on the on the cover of Band
Speaker 2: on the Run. Well that's all that he knew him by.
Speaker 1: Right, Interesting? Yeah, yeah, dressing America how Americans like, how
Speaker 1: we comprehend what's going on in England. You know, we
Speaker 1: don't see as much as you guys did. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: the same same way around like our political leaders. Maybe
Speaker 1: you don't see him as much as like we're used to.
Speaker 1: But it seems to be a thing. But yeah, the
Speaker 1: Beatles are something else. Like the fact that they had
Speaker 1: doubles for this guy going back to the sixties early
Speaker 1: sixties is crazy. That they're just using doubles into the seventies. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's not even this like the PID groups are
Speaker 1: like sixty six change, that's it, but that it's much
Speaker 1: it's much broader than that. Would you agree with that.
Speaker 2: I would create so much much broader than that, and
Speaker 2: I would say that I there definitely was the change
Speaker 2: between the poll in September sixty six and the billy.
Speaker 2: But there's more than one Billy, and there's more than
Speaker 2: one pole, and one of the poles at least trust over.
Speaker 2: That's Setchember sixty six deadline if you forget that out.
Speaker 2: So the p I D conspiracy is a distraction.
Speaker 1: Right, it's almost like a minimizing of how much brought,
Speaker 1: how much more profound it is if they have multiple
Speaker 1: guys going all the way, So it's easy to just
Speaker 1: off one of them, right, I could just get rid
Speaker 1: of one, and we still got two in the two
Speaker 1: in the background. Right, Well, they.
Speaker 2: Don't necessarily have to off one of them. They could
Speaker 2: just replaced him multiple times. You could go and retire
Speaker 2: for for a year or two and pop back up again.
Speaker 2: In the seventies, the same guy who was on the
Speaker 2: Daily Mirror front cover was the same one who was
Speaker 2: with with with Linda. You can see the scar under
Speaker 2: the under the chin. It's the same guy who married Heather,
Speaker 2: same scar under the chin. So it's into the nineties,
Speaker 2: you know. But there are other ones as well, so
Speaker 2: it's it's you have to get beyond this poor is
Speaker 2: dead business. I'm sure that's just a and I know
Speaker 2: that that's why I'm the Black Sheep because I won't
Speaker 2: follow I've followed the Paul is Dead business and he
Speaker 2: might be dead. One of them might be dead, but
Speaker 2: I'm waiting for someone to show me which one it is.
Speaker 1: Right right, Wow, crazy, It's amazing. People got to check
Speaker 1: out your videos. What is there anything you like to
Speaker 1: add or anything I missed before you wrapping up?
Speaker 2: No, I'd like people to have a look at the
Speaker 2: Boom of Black Sheep YouTube channel. If they look at
Speaker 2: my childhood beatle Mania, they'll understand my backstory and how
Speaker 2: I became a Beatles fan. And if you like how
Speaker 2: I was subjected to the promotion. Someone say it's propaganda
Speaker 2: of the Beatles in nineteen sixty three in England in
Speaker 2: that year or from March to December, and they can
Speaker 2: look at the people who were behind beetle Mania and
Speaker 2: it's certainly not a case of four highly talented working
Speaker 2: class lads from Liverpool who shoot through sheer hard work
Speaker 2: work made it on their own right. There are a
Speaker 2: lot of connections the whole network behind them. Now, that
Speaker 2: could have been coincidental, but they were all connected. Whether
Speaker 2: they owned the padium, or whether they took the photographs
Speaker 2: of the Beatles or whatever, or were their music publisher,
Speaker 2: they were all connected together. They all knew each other previously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's incredible that whole story doesn't wash. And
Speaker 1: there's more stories about there's so many additional artists who
Speaker 1: played on their albums and things that people don't know of.
Speaker 1: And there was a Quincy Jones passed away this year
Speaker 1: and he said, like, these guys couldn't play music, like
Speaker 1: Ringo Star was a terrible drummer. You had to go
Speaker 1: get better drummers to come in and play. And he
Speaker 1: should have done easy sets and things like that. So
Speaker 1: the notion that these guys are putting together some of
Speaker 1: the very so sophisticated music is it's really a stretch
Speaker 1: for me. But I will put a link to boom
Speaker 1: Er Black Sheep the YouTube check channel. People check that out,
Speaker 1: and also your substack so people can check out some
Speaker 1: of the pictures on substack as well. But thank you
Speaker 1: so much for your time, really appreciate it. When we're
Speaker 1: Black Sheep, Dennis Ingram on the Paul is dead? Is
Speaker 1: Paul really dead? Or how many palls are dead? I
Speaker 1: mean it's probably Paul. Paul's are dead is how I'm
Speaker 1: going to retitle this. But thanks so much for your.
Speaker 2: Time, Thank you very much for having me, and I
Speaker 2: hope I haven't cut across you too many.
Speaker 1: No, it's all good. We're good. We're good.
Speaker 2: Thank you, and stay there