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<v Speaker 1>All right, shall we get started now.

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<v Speaker 2>The reason, the real reason that I'm returning to this

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<v Speaker 2>podcast is this. Over the weekend somebody referred to Steve

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<v Speaker 2>Hayward as the new me, and I thought, that's it.

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<v Speaker 1>The difference is that the remedy under the ADA and

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<v Speaker 1>other anti discrimination laws is not stereotyping.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't then it's not race basically. I take your point.

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<v Speaker 1>I take your point, but you're saying then that if

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<v Speaker 1>the problem of no access is about race, it's just

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<v Speaker 1>too bad. It's the Ricochet Podcast with Stephen Hayward, Charles C. W. Cook,

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<v Speaker 1>someone named Peter Robinson talking today with Charles Murray about

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<v Speaker 1>his new book Taking Religion Seriously, Let's have ourselves a podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I really don't know what he've said at the end

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<v Speaker 1>of that sentence. I don't think he knows what he've

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<v Speaker 1>said either. Well, welcome everybody to Ricochet Podcast number seven

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and sixty two. It's Stephen Hayward sitting in the

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<v Speaker 1>host chair today the still vacationing James Lylax, joined as

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<v Speaker 1>usual by Charles C. W. Cook and somebody on my

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<v Speaker 1>screen who has identified as Peter Robinson, although I'm doubtful, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>in the age of Ai Peter. I'm skeptical it's really you.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's I'm busy, so this is actually a hologram.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, okay, good? Where are you today? Are you out

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<v Speaker 1>here in sunny California?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm at home. I'm at home. I am indeed in

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<v Speaker 2>sunny California, right, I am preparing. We're having a big

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<v Speaker 2>deal at the Hoover Institution next week, a celebration of

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<v Speaker 2>the life and work of Thomas soul Right, and I'm prepping.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm I got a rather chastening note from the Supreme

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<v Speaker 2>Court of the United States earlier saying that Justice Thomas

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<v Speaker 2>would be attending and that he'd been asked to speak,

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<v Speaker 2>and that he would like me to have a conversation

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<v Speaker 2>with him on stage. Now. I don't know about you,

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<v Speaker 2>but that made me sit up in my chair.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, it would mean to I would come, except I

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<v Speaker 1>have a prior robbal Gay at the University of Mississippi

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<v Speaker 1>all next week, so I'm very sorrey. I can't make it.

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<v Speaker 1>Charles C. W. Cook is with us, but he had

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<v Speaker 1>to dash to the front door to sign for the

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<v Speaker 1>delivery of a passport, so I guess he's getting ready

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<v Speaker 1>to flee the country or something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>A special guest today, by the way, listeners is Charles Murray,

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<v Speaker 1>who will be on with us in a few minutes

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about his dynamite new book just out this week,

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<v Speaker 1>Taking Religion Seriously. More about that and a proper introduction

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<v Speaker 1>and due course. But first, I don't know how closely

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<v Speaker 1>you're following politics these days, Peter. I find as I

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<v Speaker 1>get older, I find it hard to keep up with

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<v Speaker 1>the day to day rat tat tat of all the

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<v Speaker 1>pundits and everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow coming from you. I always sort of relied on

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<v Speaker 2>you to keep up on it. For me.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I kind of keep up with the political science

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<v Speaker 1>of it. I'll mention to you, since you are there

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<v Speaker 1>at Hoover, I am reading just started last night, this

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<v Speaker 1>brand new book by one of your colleagues, David Brady,

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<v Speaker 1>the great political scientists. Oh yes, and I forget the

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<v Speaker 1>title of it, but it's on sort of electoral cycles

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<v Speaker 1>going back fifty years and it looks fascinating. That's the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of thing I like, a sort of long form,

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<v Speaker 1>data oriented calm conclusions about things and not polemics. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the latest Twitter fight.

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<v Speaker 2>So forth, we do we do have a the midterm

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<v Speaker 2>is going to just the midterm is going to be very,

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<v Speaker 2>very important. I interviewed Speaker Johnson. Oh, this would be

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<v Speaker 2>going back four or five months now in Washington, and

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<v Speaker 2>I said to him on camera, what are you expecting,

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<v Speaker 2>excuse me, for the midterms? And he purred like a cat,

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<v Speaker 2>and he said, on camera, we're out raising them. We

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<v Speaker 2>have the morale we're going We've also done a remarkably

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<v Speaker 2>good job this cycle of candidate recruitment. We're going to

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<v Speaker 2>retain the House. And then we went off camera and

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<v Speaker 2>I said, no, really, how are things looking for the midterms?

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<v Speaker 2>And he said exactly the same thing. This is a

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<v Speaker 2>man who I don't believe is all that good at GILE.

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<v Speaker 2>So I am here to report that the speed of

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<v Speaker 2>the House really believes that the Republicans are going to

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<v Speaker 2>retain the House in the midterms.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, now, I remember you saying a year or so

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<v Speaker 1>ago that just observing from AFAR that you were impressed

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<v Speaker 1>with Johnson coming into that job that's been so difficult.

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<v Speaker 1>Now that you've met him and talked to him, is

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<v Speaker 1>that is your impressed? Your favorable impression notched up stayed

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<v Speaker 1>the same. Where do you land?

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<v Speaker 2>I walked into that impressed by Johnson. My view of

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<v Speaker 2>him went up even more.

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<v Speaker 3>He is.

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<v Speaker 2>Well. He has to have political smarts to be able

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<v Speaker 2>to hold that house together. And he has held the

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<v Speaker 2>House together, excuse me, he's held the Republican Caucus together.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, as we all know, his majority is

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<v Speaker 2>extremely slim. He has had to resort, as of course,

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<v Speaker 2>anyone in that position would have to resort to calling

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<v Speaker 2>in Donald Trump and give him a call list on

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<v Speaker 2>important votes. You need to talk to these six guys.

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<v Speaker 2>There are arms I need you to twist. Fine, Bill,

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<v Speaker 2>Mike Johnson has done that. But he's a genuinely good, relaxed,

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<v Speaker 2>calm human being. His staff like him, you know, Washington, Steve,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, not all staffs like their principles at all,

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<v Speaker 2>even when they admire them or respect them in a

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<v Speaker 2>certain way. His staff genuinely enjoys him. He is honestly.

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<v Speaker 2>He reminded me of my hero Ronald Reagan, in the

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<v Speaker 2>sense that despite all the pressures he's under, despite all

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<v Speaker 2>the activity worrying around him, he himself seems a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of node of calm. A man really is comfortable being himself.

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<v Speaker 2>I was just impressed by him. He does seem serene.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll give him that.

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<v Speaker 1>And about his staff, at least they stay out of

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<v Speaker 1>his shot. I'm like, sorry, that's right. That's what is

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<v Speaker 1>Charlie is back passport in hand. Charlie. You know, one

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<v Speaker 1>of the interesting things this week is I do like

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<v Speaker 1>watching that Harry Enton guy on CNN their Polson I

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<v Speaker 1>think shoots pretty straight, and he's pointing out what ought

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<v Speaker 1>to be pretty ominous for Democrats, which is their generic

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<v Speaker 1>ballot margin has been shrinking over Republicans, and now it's

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<v Speaker 1>down to like three points, I think, and for variety

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<v Speaker 1>of reasons I won't explain the Democratic generic margin needs

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<v Speaker 1>to be larger from that to win a House election.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just the way it all falls out. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>even before you factor in any possible jerrymandering that might

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<v Speaker 1>happen before the election next year. Do you think that

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<v Speaker 1>this is just a reflection of the way the shutdown

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<v Speaker 1>is not really working for Democrats or are there deeper

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<v Speaker 1>tectonic plates behind the scene.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a weird moment in that usually all you

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<v Speaker 3>need to do in politics is look at the popularity

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<v Speaker 3>of the incumbent president or Congress and reason from that.

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<v Speaker 3>But at the moment that's impossible because you see the

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<v Speaker 3>headline which says Donald Trump is eight points underwater, or

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<v Speaker 3>the Republicans as a whole an approval rating of thirty

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<v Speaker 3>six percent, and then you look at the Democrats and

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<v Speaker 3>they're twenty points worse. Now, in this case, they're not worse,

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<v Speaker 3>they're slightly better on the generic ballot, but they're not

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<v Speaker 3>better enough, and that is odd. Ever since I moved

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<v Speaker 3>to the US, politics was thermostatic. You could pretty much

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<v Speaker 3>guarantee that if a president had been there six years

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<v Speaker 3>then there would be a pushback. Well, in twenty twenty six,

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<v Speaker 3>Donald Trump woul't have been there for six years in

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<v Speaker 3>quite the way that presidents are normally there for six years,

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<v Speaker 3>because his terms have been set apart from one another.

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<v Speaker 3>But he will have been president for six years and

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<v Speaker 3>the Democrats are really in a bad position for that.

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<v Speaker 3>If you compare it to, for example, twenty fourteen, where

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<v Speaker 3>Republicans romped, it doesn't look like it's going to be

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<v Speaker 3>anything like that sort of dynamic, which is odd.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you mentioned Trump being underwater in his personal approval

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<v Speaker 1>rag we have here something but something of a reversal

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<v Speaker 1>from the Reagan years. Peter will remember this. It was

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<v Speaker 1>said that Reagan's personal popularity was always very high, but

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<v Speaker 1>the media and Democrats told us his particular policies and

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<v Speaker 1>ideas were not popular. That turns out not to be true,

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<v Speaker 1>by the way, if he really got into it. But

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<v Speaker 1>that was the media spin and talking point. But I

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<v Speaker 1>do think it is in the case of Trump. Trump

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<v Speaker 1>himself is personally unpopular for all the reasons that we know, right,

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<v Speaker 1>So it sometimes amazes me this approval rating is even

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<v Speaker 1>in the mid to high forties. But I do believe

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<v Speaker 1>that a lot of his policies are popular, correct, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And so I think that that plays out, I think

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<v Speaker 1>in an awful lot of the rest of the shaping

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<v Speaker 1>of the political landscape.

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<v Speaker 2>This was the point that Barton Swim made in the

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<v Speaker 2>Wall Street Journal What was it yesterday? Where he had

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<v Speaker 2>this outrageous column which you called I think it was.

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<v Speaker 2>He referred to Donald Trump as the tribune of democracy,

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<v Speaker 2>the man who body democracy. Far from being a threat

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<v Speaker 2>to democracy, he's embodying democracy. And he went through an

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<v Speaker 2>issue by issue by issue, saying that although the Democrats

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<v Speaker 2>are railing against him, they ought to think twice about

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<v Speaker 2>how many Republicans, how many Americans approve of closing down

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<v Speaker 2>the borders after the Biden years, A lot of Americans

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<v Speaker 2>approve of that. Who approves of getting tough on crime

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<v Speaker 2>in cities? All Americans? On and on, and it goes.

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<v Speaker 2>The other bit of this is that Steve, you and

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<v Speaker 2>I do go back to the Reagan years. I cannot

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<v Speaker 2>recall seeing the Democrats in such total and utter disarray.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you close your eyes and try impartially to

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<v Speaker 2>say to yourself, Democratic Party, what are the names that

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<v Speaker 2>come to mind as the leaders or the most prominent

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<v Speaker 2>members of the Democratic Party, And you get Elizabeth Warren,

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<v Speaker 2>Alexandria Caesio Cortes. We're going to get Mom Dami, apparently

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<v Speaker 2>he's on course to win election as mayor of New York.

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<v Speaker 2>You've got Bernie Sanders. You've got Chuck Schumer, maybe the

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<v Speaker 2>least unpopular of all these figures. In other words, Peter,

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<v Speaker 2>you're leaving somebody. Peter, Yeah, because I'm leaving. I'm leaving

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<v Speaker 2>him to you. So everybody I just named, everybody I

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<v Speaker 2>just named is way over on the progressive left, and

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<v Speaker 2>the country just won't have that, Okay, now over to

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<v Speaker 2>you and the governor of the Golden State.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, right, well Newsom right, he's leading. By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>the latest poll i've seen shows Newsom as the front

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<v Speaker 1>runner for twenty twenty eight number two Alexandria Cossio Cortanz.

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<v Speaker 1>Watch he choose the Democratic Democramtocratic Nation presidential nomination.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll talk about Newsom later on. I prefer to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about him as little as possible. But he's taking a

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<v Speaker 1>big gamble on his reapportionment initiative. I think if he

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<v Speaker 1>loses that the blue will be off the rows, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think he might, but we'll save that for some

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<v Speaker 1>other day.

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<v Speaker 2>Have we seen any polling on that. It's difficult on

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<v Speaker 2>that initiative.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's always been very bad on California ballot initiatives.

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<v Speaker 1>But a couple of polls have it with his initiative

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<v Speaker 1>and a slight lead. So I wouldn't be confident if

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<v Speaker 1>I was.

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<v Speaker 3>New for it to pass. Is it a simple majority? Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>it's sixty in Florida.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's simple majority. Uh, and so we'll see all

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<v Speaker 1>by mail. I think it's just the only question on

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<v Speaker 1>the ballot. Well, here, maybe I will spend thirty more

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<v Speaker 1>seconds on this. You may remember Peter, but maybe you don't.

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<v Speaker 1>You were I was a teenager at the time. But

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<v Speaker 1>Ronald Reagan, in his second last year's governor ran Proposition

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<v Speaker 1>one as a special ballot measure in nineteen seventy three,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was a great measure. It was a tax

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<v Speaker 1>and spinning limitation initiative. But it was complicated and it

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<v Speaker 1>lost because the you know, the media and all the

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<v Speaker 1>unions ran a very clever campaign against it, and Reagan

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<v Speaker 1>made a couple of mistakes in the campaign and that

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<v Speaker 1>you know, stopped his momentum heading towards the nineteen seventy

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<v Speaker 1>six cycle. I think, and I think the same thing

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<v Speaker 1>could happen to Newsome. This is a gamble that Newsom's taking.

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<v Speaker 1>So we'll see just my special by way.

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<v Speaker 2>Just we keep hearing that the President Donald Trump really

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<v Speaker 2>wants to cut back on and possibly even eliminate mail

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<v Speaker 2>in ballots because he considers them insecure. Well, I have

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<v Speaker 2>news for the President. He can relax because here in California,

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<v Speaker 2>in my household, I have five children. Two of them

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<v Speaker 2>are residents of Michigan, one is a resident of Texas,

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<v Speaker 2>and one is a resident of New York, only one

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<v Speaker 2>of my five children as a resident here of California,

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<v Speaker 2>and yet I just received ballot mail ballots for all

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<v Speaker 2>of my children. I could I so so. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, it's just out. It's crazy. The mail voting

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<v Speaker 2>is out of control. I now they made a mistake

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<v Speaker 2>with me, because if I do vote for all my children,

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<v Speaker 2>I won't lawyers leave me alone.

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<v Speaker 1>I won't do it.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not that excite guy again Prop fifty. Every single

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<v Speaker 2>time I was.

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<v Speaker 1>Afraid you were about to commit to a felony, and

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<v Speaker 1>I was going to mute you in case you started

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<v Speaker 1>down that road.

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, no, I wouldn't do that. But the idea,

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<v Speaker 2>right the mail in ballots in California are in any

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<v Speaker 2>way secure is absurd, preposterous.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you know who else was opposed to mail in balloting?

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<v Speaker 1>Jimmy Carter? Really, I don't know if you remember that story.

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<v Speaker 1>It's twenty years ago now, I think two thousand and five.

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<v Speaker 1>Jimmy Carter did some fancy commission with James Baker was

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<v Speaker 1>the co chair, and their report was very strongly critical

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<v Speaker 1>of mail in ballots because of the potential for fraud.

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<v Speaker 3>It does work quite well in Florida. But the cost

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<v Speaker 3>of it, and the Democrats would never accept this is

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<v Speaker 3>that they dish what's the word, de register or unenroll

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<v Speaker 3>you after every election. So if you want to mail

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<v Speaker 3>in ballots, not to register to vote, but if you

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<v Speaker 3>want a mail in ballot, you have to reregister every time.

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<v Speaker 3>You have to opt in wow, each each in every election.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, that would be a better way of doing it.

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<v Speaker 3>Just send them out at infinitum.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And Charles Murray joins us now on the podcast

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<v Speaker 1>to Charles is a Resident Scholar Emeritus at the American

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<v Speaker 1>Enterprise Institute, author of so many books that if I

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<v Speaker 1>list them all and recall some of the controversies about them,

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<v Speaker 1>we would use up half of our time at least.

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<v Speaker 1>But we're here today to talk about his brand new book,

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<v Speaker 1>Taking Religion Seriously. Charles, Welcome to Ricochet.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm delighted to be with you guys.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, now, I do have an important opening metaphysical question.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's a high metaphysical question.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't wait.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it is, what is the Aristotelian ideal of the

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<v Speaker 1>best dry martini?

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<v Speaker 2>Huh?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, here, I'm I'm thinking, of course, of Robert Bork

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<v Speaker 4>who had very strong opinions on all of this, chief

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<v Speaker 4>among them being no allies that this is a drink,

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<v Speaker 4>not a salad. In Robert Pork's words. The second thing

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<v Speaker 4>is that a martini is by definition gin. Vodka is

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<v Speaker 4>another drink. Similarly, onions are not martini's, they are another drink. Now,

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<v Speaker 4>having said all that, I have decided, after long consideration,

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<v Speaker 4>that you don't want to put any vermouth in a martini, or,

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<v Speaker 4>if you know the proverbial, wave it over the bottle.

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<v Speaker 4>I used to go to the Palm Restaurant with Charles

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<v Speaker 4>Crauthemmer and Bill Bennett and Pete Wayner for lunche three

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<v Speaker 4>or four times a year, and I was mystified as

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<v Speaker 4>to why I liked the martinis of the Palm better

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<v Speaker 4>than the ones I made. And I tried all kinds

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<v Speaker 4>of different driver moose, and it turned out that the

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<v Speaker 4>Palm doesn't put an invermouth, that's spartits. And I have

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<v Speaker 4>stuck by that wisdom ever since.

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<v Speaker 1>So do you ever find out their secret? Do they

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<v Speaker 1>have a secret gin or something? No?

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<v Speaker 4>The secret is that if you have a twist that

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<v Speaker 4>you really do a good job of getting the lemon

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<v Speaker 4>oil out, and that is that's important. If you do that,

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<v Speaker 4>the gen takes on a sufficiently lovely lemonae aspect that

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<v Speaker 4>it makes it qualitatively better than if you don't get

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<v Speaker 4>those few drops of lemon oil.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think that is the correct answer, by the way,

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<v Speaker 1>on all fronts. But let's move on from distilled spirits

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<v Speaker 1>to Charles has never been more himself. Charles has never

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<v Speaker 1>been more himself than in discussing a martini, because he

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<v Speaker 1>begins even then by defining his terms.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, that's right.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's move on from the stilled spirits to the

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<v Speaker 1>Holy Spirit and your new book taking religion seriously. So

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<v Speaker 1>I guess Charles, let's open up this way. I think

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<v Speaker 1>for all your longtime readers and people who followed your

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<v Speaker 1>work for decades now, this is an unexpected book, an

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<v Speaker 1>unusual topic, a somewhat unusual approach. I mean, you are

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<v Speaker 1>chiefly an empiricist, although my observation is you've always been

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<v Speaker 1>an empiricist in the mold of James Q. Wilson or

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<v Speaker 1>patten weinhand, someone who wants to have data but also

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<v Speaker 1>thinks like a reasonable human being. So how did you

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<v Speaker 1>decide before we get into some particular important aspects of

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<v Speaker 1>the book. How did you decide that you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>write this book and declare for the wider public what's

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<v Speaker 1>been going on in your spiritual life.

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<v Speaker 4>It's all Mick Everstat's fault. Mick Everstat is one of

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<v Speaker 4>the nation's premier demographers and colleague at AEI, and he

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<v Speaker 4>had been interviewing me, along with another colleague, Carlin Bowman,

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<v Speaker 4>for some long videos that AEI was doing kind of

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<v Speaker 4>an institutional history and in this case, my life at AEI,

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<v Speaker 4>And somehow we got onto religion in the last hour

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<v Speaker 4>of three and Nick, who is a devout Catholic, was

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<v Speaker 4>entertained by I think that's the right word, by the

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<v Speaker 4>eccentric ideas that I've been developing about my religious beliefs.

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<v Speaker 4>And when they turned off the cameras, Nick looked at

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<v Speaker 4>me and he said, it ought to be your next book.

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<v Speaker 4>And I had at that time been struggling with a

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<v Speaker 4>semi autobiographical book about my role in the conservative movements

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<v Speaker 4>and the libertarian movements in the eighties and nineties, and I

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<v Speaker 4>was really bored with it. You know, my career hasn't

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<v Speaker 4>been that exciting and enough for maybe an article but

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<v Speaker 4>not for a book. And this really appealed to me

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<v Speaker 4>because the fact is, Steve that this evolution. I will

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<v Speaker 4>try to avoid the word journey, which is way overused

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<v Speaker 4>when you get to religion. But this evolution of my

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<v Speaker 4>thinking has been going on for thirty some years and

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<v Speaker 4>it's been an important part of my life that I

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<v Speaker 4>really haven't talked with anybody about. And the other thing

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<v Speaker 4>which justified me in saying yes, I'm going to write

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<v Speaker 4>it is I think I am representative of millions of Americans.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm thinking of well educated, successful people, adults forties fifties,

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<v Speaker 4>for whom religion has never been a big deal. They

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<v Speaker 4>aren't militant atheists. They may identify as agnostics, but basically,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, what's the point That there is no such

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<v Speaker 4>thing as a personal God? That's certainly true. We live

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<v Speaker 4>in the world of the Enlightenment, where we know a

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<v Speaker 4>whole bunch of other things about religion aren't true, and

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<v Speaker 4>so who cares?

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<v Speaker 1>Right?

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<v Speaker 2>And I've changed from that?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So I think if I think, maybe it's not

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<v Speaker 1>too much of a simplification to say that your path

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<v Speaker 1>to taking theism seriously has two major prongs. One is

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<v Speaker 1>you review some of the science which shows that the

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<v Speaker 1>randomness hypothesis of the universe is implausible, and other things.

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<v Speaker 1>And then there's the logic of morals, which i'll hold

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<v Speaker 1>for a moment. Also on the science, there's one part

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to ask you about, and I know

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<v Speaker 1>Peter's jumping in his chair to get in. I was

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<v Speaker 1>delighted to see you talk about the shroud of Turin

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<v Speaker 1>at some length in the book, which is a thing

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<v Speaker 1>that's fascinating me for a long time. Then you also

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned another thing that's been on my mind, which is

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<v Speaker 1>quantum entanglement, this very weird business in physics where the

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<v Speaker 1>two particles separated can be in harmony with one another.

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<v Speaker 1>And then you mentioned a third one, which is that

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's Paige one forty three. You mentioned that

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<v Speaker 1>I won't find it the actual observation of particles can

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<v Speaker 1>change their behavior. In all three of these cases, I've

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<v Speaker 1>thought to myself, and this is a little bit too

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<v Speaker 1>crew perhaps or irreverent, But these are all God's little

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<v Speaker 1>jokes on the rational mind. I mean, when the particles

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<v Speaker 1>change their behavior when we're deserving them in a scientific experiment,

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<v Speaker 1>it's kind of like God sitting back saying, AH caught

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<v Speaker 1>you looking, didn't I.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, there have been a whole bunch of things that

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<v Speaker 4>have happened in the last century that are God's little jokes.

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<v Speaker 4>For example, what could be a one better prank than

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<v Speaker 4>to have physicists discover in the twentieth century what is

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<v Speaker 4>basically a gloss on Genesis. I mean, the big bag

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<v Speaker 4>is Genesis, let there be light. And also when you

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<v Speaker 4>have the enlightenment view saying we're all materialists. Now, the

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<v Speaker 4>brain is where consciousness resides. And once the brains, consciousness quits.

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<v Speaker 1>What could be.

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<v Speaker 4>Funnier than to have science and the ability to keep

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<v Speaker 4>people bring people back from near death experiences provide a

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<v Speaker 4>great deal of evidence saying maybe it doesn't work out

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<v Speaker 4>the way we expected it to. Maybe consciousness can exist

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<v Speaker 4>independently of the brain. This is not theologians arguing for

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<v Speaker 4>a life after death. This is the science saying something's

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<v Speaker 4>going on that we can't explain through existing euroscience.

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<v Speaker 2>Peter jump in stephenm I permitted, Charles, I'd like to

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<v Speaker 2>come to the question of miracles, on which you're tiptoeing

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<v Speaker 2>up to it in a moment. But first it's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of for me the threshold question is this Maybe I'm

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<v Speaker 2>the outlaw. I just don't know. I would like to

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<v Speaker 2>put this to you and then just see how you respond.

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<v Speaker 2>But when you say I Charles Murray, I Charles Murray.

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<v Speaker 2>Charles Murray, who produced at least three of the most

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<v Speaker 2>controversial books of the last several decades and two of

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<v Speaker 2>the most important, Losing Ground and Coming Apart. You produced

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<v Speaker 2>two books in your career that everybody had to read,

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<v Speaker 2>all right, and then you say, oh, by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>I've never really been particularly interested in God. Now that

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<v Speaker 2>stops me cold, because all my life I haven't been able.

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<v Speaker 2>I did try. I got to college, I got to

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<v Speaker 2>Dartmouth and realized that all the cool professors were atheists,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I tried it. And I was only able

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<v Speaker 2>to keep it up for two weeks. I remember it

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<v Speaker 2>exactly too, and then it just became too much of

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<v Speaker 2>an effort. I have. The existence of God seems to

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<v Speaker 2>me everywhere present. I haven't always been happy about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Lord knows, I haven't always lived up to the implications.

420
00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:43.279
<v Speaker 2>But I can't imagine how someone can go through the

421
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.799
<v Speaker 2>kind of life that you've led, the life of the mind,

422
00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:50.480
<v Speaker 2>the life of awareness, the life of constantly interrogating this

423
00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:53.960
<v Speaker 2>and that aspect of reality, the life of someone who's

424
00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.480
<v Speaker 2>such an American patriot, and we see God all over

425
00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:01.079
<v Speaker 2>the Founding. The founders had different levels belief in different

426
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:04.480
<v Speaker 2>but He's there. How can it be that you went

427
00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:08.000
<v Speaker 2>through decades of your life just not particularly interested in

428
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:08.519
<v Speaker 2>the question.

429
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:11.839
<v Speaker 4>All right, we are getting to what I consider the

430
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:16.119
<v Speaker 4>only potential real contribution that the book has most of

431
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:20.200
<v Speaker 4>the book is, you know, I am not an expert

432
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.400
<v Speaker 4>on a whole variety of things that I talk about

433
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.599
<v Speaker 4>in the book, And I say explicitly in the text

434
00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:31.799
<v Speaker 4>I'm talking from my perspective about the Big Bang and consciousness,

435
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:33.599
<v Speaker 4>and that I'm not an expert in any of this.

436
00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:36.599
<v Speaker 4>I'm like you, I am forced to try to make

437
00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:39.960
<v Speaker 4>judgments about fields in which I don't have the time

438
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:43.559
<v Speaker 4>to master them. So in that sense, I'm not making contributions.

439
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:47.440
<v Speaker 4>But I think it is a contribution to say that

440
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:55.119
<v Speaker 4>spiritual sensitivity is the same kind of thing quality and

441
00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:00.160
<v Speaker 4>human beings, that the ability to appreciate music is, the

442
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:04.119
<v Speaker 4>ability to appreciate great art and great literature. In all

443
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:10.160
<v Speaker 4>of these cases, you have a trait that is not

444
00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:13.759
<v Speaker 4>iq at all. I mean, we all know really smart people,

445
00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:16.920
<v Speaker 4>and actually I'm kind of one of them who looks

446
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:19.440
<v Speaker 4>at a picture in a museum, a great picture, and

447
00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:22.960
<v Speaker 4>I'm not moved. I leave it in five seconds and

448
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.559
<v Speaker 4>go on to the next one, and soddenly there are

449
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:30.119
<v Speaker 4>people who are tone deaf. Literally, well, you are on

450
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:34.680
<v Speaker 4>the right hand side of the normal distribution in spiritual sensitivity.

451
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:44.119
<v Speaker 4>For you, not being preoccupied with God, not his social utility,

452
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:48.119
<v Speaker 4>but the truth value of God is as natural to

453
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:53.319
<v Speaker 4>you as it is for some musicians to lose themselves

454
00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:57.640
<v Speaker 4>in the music. And it says unnatural for me. And

455
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:00.400
<v Speaker 4>I'm also married to a woman who is at the right, say,

456
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.440
<v Speaker 4>had side of that distribution on spiritual sensitivity, and I

457
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:08.960
<v Speaker 4>have the equivalent of a score of seventy five on

458
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:12.759
<v Speaker 4>the IQ scale when it comes to spiritual sensitivity. So

459
00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:17.319
<v Speaker 4>I think that's an important point to make for a

460
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:22.039
<v Speaker 4>couple of reasons. First, is, if it's true, and I'm

461
00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:26.200
<v Speaker 4>sure it is, that means that people like me have

462
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:32.759
<v Speaker 4>to cobble together ways of getting into these problems that

463
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:35.599
<v Speaker 4>you don't have to do. You can take a much

464
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:38.319
<v Speaker 4>more direct route than people like I can. And the

465
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:42.759
<v Speaker 4>other thing is I want to disabuse my fellow people

466
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:47.839
<v Speaker 4>with the spiritual sensitivity of seventy five. I want to

467
00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:51.880
<v Speaker 4>get them from I want them to stop saying, oh,

468
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:57.079
<v Speaker 4>people who claim all of these things about spiritual realities

469
00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:01.200
<v Speaker 4>are just deluding themselves. I want them to realize, you

470
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:04.079
<v Speaker 4>are the one with the handicap. You are the one

471
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:07.359
<v Speaker 4>who it has does not have access to this information.

472
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:11.440
<v Speaker 2>So it's a trait. It's a trait. It's a truth

473
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:16.119
<v Speaker 2>that like many traits you've just spent your life studying.

474
00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:19.359
<v Speaker 2>There's a bell curve here at Human beings vary on

475
00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:19.960
<v Speaker 2>this point.

476
00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:24.640
<v Speaker 4>And I'm not talking I'm talking about reality, all right.

477
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:29.599
<v Speaker 4>The beauty of music is not in the imagination of

478
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:32.000
<v Speaker 4>people who are going to appreciate music. They are the

479
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:34.599
<v Speaker 4>ones who can see the beauty. Similarly for great art.

480
00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:38.559
<v Speaker 4>And I'm saying, people who have spiritual sensitivity are seeing

481
00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.119
<v Speaker 4>things that are true that are very difficult for me

482
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:42.480
<v Speaker 4>to see.

483
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:44.359
<v Speaker 1>Can I just let me jump in for second, Peter,

484
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.240
<v Speaker 1>which is a short clarifying follow up question. So you

485
00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:50.759
<v Speaker 1>know you used the phrase of Peter, the bell curve

486
00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:52.920
<v Speaker 1>and Charles you talked about, you know, different modes or

487
00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:56.440
<v Speaker 1>levels of spiritual perception but do you think in general

488
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.000
<v Speaker 1>human beings have an instinct for reverence.

489
00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:06.200
<v Speaker 4>Well, they certainly have. There is a religious instinct that

490
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:12.519
<v Speaker 4>is evolutionarily driven. Nicholas Wade has a very nice book

491
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:22.440
<v Speaker 4>about that. An instinct for reverence, that's the Yeah, it's

492
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:28.920
<v Speaker 4>it's it's I think. I think the God sized hole

493
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:35.480
<v Speaker 4>that people talk about, I think that is. I think

494
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:39.119
<v Speaker 4>that is a human characteristic. And I think that for

495
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:44.759
<v Speaker 4>most of us, well we all have the God sized

496
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:48.480
<v Speaker 4>hole buried in there somewhere. Some of us never have

497
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:52.319
<v Speaker 4>to access it. A lot of times that becomes apparent

498
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:56.079
<v Speaker 4>to people in times of great stress and tragedy and

499
00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:58.680
<v Speaker 4>so forth. That if you live a life that doesn't

500
00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:01.920
<v Speaker 4>have much tragedy, it may very well be you can

501
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:05.279
<v Speaker 4>ignore it. We can distract ourselves. But I think the

502
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:07.279
<v Speaker 4>God's size follow was a human characteristic.

503
00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:11.720
<v Speaker 2>Charles, by the way you put your answering all kinds

504
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.920
<v Speaker 2>of questions for me, you remember, as I Steve would,

505
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:20.279
<v Speaker 2>I Charlie wouldn't. Arnold Bitchman. Arnold Bichman was one of

506
00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:22.680
<v Speaker 2>my closest friends here at the Hoover Institution. I remember

507
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.160
<v Speaker 2>walking into the lounge for a cup of coffee one afternoon,

508
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:28.559
<v Speaker 2>and Arnold, who then must have been ninety one or

509
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:32.720
<v Speaker 2>ninety two, looked up and said to me, do you

510
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:36.720
<v Speaker 2>believe in God? And my first thought was, Arnold, is

511
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:39.039
<v Speaker 2>a little late in the day for you to be

512
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:42.920
<v Speaker 2>asking that question. But truly it had just kind of

513
00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:45.799
<v Speaker 2>worked his way to the front of his mind. All right,

514
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:51.119
<v Speaker 2>So onto this question of miracles. I'm not exactly certain.

515
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:54.559
<v Speaker 2>Bear with me if you would, because I'm on the

516
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:56.880
<v Speaker 2>bell curve that puts questions in a sloppy way, not

517
00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:58.799
<v Speaker 2>as beautifully and precisely as you do. Try.

518
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:00.720
<v Speaker 4>You're the best interviewer I've ever had.

519
00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:03.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh would you repeat that for Steve to hear that?

520
00:30:05.480 --> 00:30:08.319
<v Speaker 2>So I did an interview a couple of months ago

521
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:13.480
<v Speaker 2>with Carlos Air at Yale. Carlos as a new book

522
00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:18.759
<v Speaker 2>out entitled They Flew, and it is a book that

523
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:23.000
<v Speaker 2>takes seriously as a historical matter. He's a professor of

524
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:29.599
<v Speaker 2>history at Yale. Accounts of two particular kinds of the

525
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:35.279
<v Speaker 2>miraculous behavior supernatural behavior. The accounts all come from Catholic

526
00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:39.039
<v Speaker 2>not all, but overwhelmingly they come from Catholic countries Italy

527
00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:42.319
<v Speaker 2>and Spain for the most part. And we're talking about

528
00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:47.839
<v Speaker 2>the sixteenth through to the nineteenth century, although one of

529
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:53.359
<v Speaker 2>the figures involved, Padre Pio now Sat Saint Peo, died

530
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:58.000
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen sixty one. And Carlos makes the point that

531
00:30:58.039 --> 00:31:03.680
<v Speaker 2>we have extremely good document mentary evidence that certain figures

532
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:09.720
<v Speaker 2>levitated in prayer and certain other figures were capable of

533
00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:12.319
<v Speaker 2>or experienced by location. That is to say, we have

534
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:17.839
<v Speaker 2>documentary evidence that they were seen, spoke, touched in two

535
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:21.279
<v Speaker 2>places at once. And one of the reasons we have

536
00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:24.960
<v Speaker 2>such good evidence, particularly for the older figures, is that

537
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.720
<v Speaker 2>the Roman Catholic Church itself found all of this a

538
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:32.680
<v Speaker 2>terrible nuisance, doubted it, and in case after case after case,

539
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.799
<v Speaker 2>set up tribunals to investigate the matter with the apparent

540
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:41.440
<v Speaker 2>hope of tamping it all down. Okay, And Carlos makes

541
00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:46.640
<v Speaker 2>the point that we have historical we have eyewitness testimony

542
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:51.119
<v Speaker 2>for these events that is at least as good as

543
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:56.319
<v Speaker 2>the eyewitness testimony we have for the speech that Elizabeth first,

544
00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:02.839
<v Speaker 2>the first gave it Tisbury, or that because of our

545
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.680
<v Speaker 2>not I was about to say Western, that's mistaken, because

546
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:10.079
<v Speaker 2>of our secular, because of the Enlightenment, Northern European frame

547
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:14.400
<v Speaker 2>of mind, that we have inhabited. We don't see it.

548
00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:18.160
<v Speaker 2>There is an aspect of reality, and his argument is

549
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:23.440
<v Speaker 2>this is reality. Reality is big enough to contain strange

550
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:27.279
<v Speaker 2>things that strike us as levitation and by location, and

551
00:32:27.319 --> 00:32:31.039
<v Speaker 2>we're not seeing it. So in this book, do you

552
00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:34.960
<v Speaker 2>find yourself seeing more of reality? Is that a fair

553
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.880
<v Speaker 2>way of putting the question. I see you nodding, You

554
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:37.720
<v Speaker 2>see that. I was.

555
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:40.559
<v Speaker 4>I was so interested in your account of this book.

556
00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:44.720
<v Speaker 4>And the title is the title is simply they flew. Okay,

557
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:47.880
<v Speaker 4>they we got done with this podcast. I am getting

558
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:52.640
<v Speaker 4>the kindle version of that book right, and because I

559
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:57.400
<v Speaker 4>am wholly sympathetic to that point of view. There are

560
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:02.920
<v Speaker 4>a variety of things that are extremely well documented that

561
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:07.039
<v Speaker 4>just look an awful lot, like miracles, and some of

562
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:13.000
<v Speaker 4>those involve of healing. But I'm not talking of something

563
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:16.720
<v Speaker 4>as simple as taking away the leprosy. I'm talking about

564
00:33:16.759 --> 00:33:19.519
<v Speaker 4>what I read recently that has happened within the last

565
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:24.039
<v Speaker 4>decade or two with people who are dying a very complex,

566
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:33.599
<v Speaker 4>thoroughly diagnosed diseases and got well instantly. Okay. I I

567
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:38.480
<v Speaker 4>think that Carl Sagan's statement that has become such a

568
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:44.079
<v Speaker 4>cliche that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is true. But

569
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:46.319
<v Speaker 4>what I think that a lot of the skeptics of

570
00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:50.799
<v Speaker 4>the world don't recognize is what extraordinary evidence we have

571
00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:57.960
<v Speaker 4>for some really weird stuff. And nicely put so basically, well,

572
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:00.240
<v Speaker 4>I wouldn't have used the word stuff for this were

573
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:07.720
<v Speaker 4>a less polite company. But anyway, anyway, the when it

574
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:12.679
<v Speaker 4>comes to miracles and the Bible, I still, you know,

575
00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:17.079
<v Speaker 4>struggle to decide how much I accept as true and

576
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:20.119
<v Speaker 4>not true. And of course the resurrection is the acid

577
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:25.360
<v Speaker 4>test with all of that. However, the idea that miraculous

578
00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:29.880
<v Speaker 4>things happen, I have no problem saying there's a lot

579
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:30.679
<v Speaker 4>of evidence for that.

580
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:35.440
<v Speaker 1>So Charles, we have the ideal audience for your book.

581
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:39.559
<v Speaker 1>In our third host, Charles CW. Cook. Who, Charlie Cook,

582
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:42.519
<v Speaker 1>I don't think I'm betraying any real private information to

583
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:46.599
<v Speaker 1>say that you describe yourself as a church going agnostic.

584
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:53.199
<v Speaker 3>So Charlie Cook, Hi, Charles, this is true what Steve

585
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.280
<v Speaker 3>says in a sense of books. For me, I'm on

586
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:58.000
<v Speaker 3>page forty two, so I haven't got beyond that yet.

587
00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:02.599
<v Speaker 3>But you started in night teen eighty five, so you

588
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:06.280
<v Speaker 3>were all around forty then I'm now forty and I

589
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:09.199
<v Speaker 3>like you have the seventy five IQ thing, I think,

590
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:11.400
<v Speaker 3>and I compare it with music. I actually took my

591
00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:14.199
<v Speaker 3>car yesterday in for its annual service and I was

592
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:17.000
<v Speaker 3>playing music in the car, and I was so emotional

593
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:19.639
<v Speaker 3>getting my car done because of the music that I

594
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:21.639
<v Speaker 3>thought I must be right on the right hand side

595
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:25.760
<v Speaker 3>of your distribution for music with religion religion, I'm not,

596
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:28.440
<v Speaker 3>but my wife is. I'm married to a Catholic and

597
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.280
<v Speaker 3>she is devout, so she has that. So I think

598
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:36.119
<v Speaker 3>I have the ideal patterns for the book. But my

599
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:41.679
<v Speaker 3>question is so I had Rosstauthat on my podcast a

600
00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:44.400
<v Speaker 3>few months ago, and he's also written a book about religion,

601
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:46.440
<v Speaker 3>and I said to him, what is your aim here?

602
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:49.199
<v Speaker 3>And he said, my aim is to convert you. My

603
00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:52.719
<v Speaker 3>aim is to convince you that I'm right, and preferably

604
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:55.559
<v Speaker 3>you will become a Christian, and preferably you become a Catholic.

605
00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:59.519
<v Speaker 3>Right this book, which I haven't finished yet, is that

606
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:02.159
<v Speaker 3>the aim or is there aim more to sort of

607
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:08.639
<v Speaker 3>dis dispense with this sneering that you see among a

608
00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:12.400
<v Speaker 3>lot of people who are within the world. We inhabit

609
00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:17.000
<v Speaker 3>people who are well educated where they really look down

610
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:21.920
<v Speaker 3>on all of these ideas as being silly or prehistoric

611
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:26.480
<v Speaker 3>or superstitious. Is that the aim of the book or

612
00:36:26.599 --> 00:36:28.960
<v Speaker 3>do you have a more specific goal?

613
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:33.800
<v Speaker 4>No, Actually, you sound to me like my ideal reader. Okay,

614
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:36.599
<v Speaker 4>I mean you are exactly the person I'm at and

615
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:37.159
<v Speaker 4>what I'm.

616
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Saying to you you should charge him more.

617
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:40.760
<v Speaker 1>What I'm saying.

618
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:46.559
<v Speaker 4>What I'm saying to you is I feel your disability

619
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:51.519
<v Speaker 4>because I share your disability. And what I'm going to

620
00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:55.760
<v Speaker 4>give to you is not a handbook. I'm just going

621
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:59.119
<v Speaker 4>to give you an example of how you can cobble

622
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:02.840
<v Speaker 4>together way of thinking about this that will get you

623
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:07.039
<v Speaker 4>deeper and deeper into what I am confident is a

624
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:09.880
<v Speaker 4>really important should be an important part of your life.

625
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:13.360
<v Speaker 4>And when you get to the end of the book,

626
00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:17.000
<v Speaker 4>you'll see that the last chapter, which has to do

627
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:21.599
<v Speaker 4>what last chapters always do, I explicitly don't try to

628
00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:26.679
<v Speaker 4>foist Christianity on my readers. I say, look, there are

629
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:28.760
<v Speaker 4>two things I think you ought to take away from this,

630
00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:34.920
<v Speaker 4>but neither one of them is directive about except to say,

631
00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:38.360
<v Speaker 4>this is a worthwhile endeavor and you really should invest

632
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:41.199
<v Speaker 4>the effort. And not only should you invest the effort,

633
00:37:41.480 --> 00:37:44.719
<v Speaker 4>but you can despite our seventy five scores on the

634
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:52.800
<v Speaker 4>perceptual perceptual ability scale. And that's it. So it's a

635
00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:56.960
<v Speaker 4>I'm not trying to own the agnostics and make them

636
00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:59.119
<v Speaker 4>feel bad about being agnostics.

637
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:00.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to.

638
00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:05.559
<v Speaker 4>To say, you too, can recover from this if you

639
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:06.800
<v Speaker 4>give it some effort.

640
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:09.960
<v Speaker 3>Another interesting thing that I'm picking up despite only being

641
00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:14.880
<v Speaker 3>forty two pages in, is very often the way that

642
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:18.320
<v Speaker 3>this topic is set up is as if on the

643
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:21.400
<v Speaker 3>one hand you have religion and then on the other

644
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:24.280
<v Speaker 3>hand you have science, and never the twain shall meet.

645
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:28.079
<v Speaker 3>But it's quite interesting just reading the chapter on the

646
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:31.320
<v Speaker 3>creation of the universe or the Big Bang, or however

647
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:34.079
<v Speaker 3>you want to look at it, how intertwined a lot

648
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:36.559
<v Speaker 3>of those questions seem to be, which is not the

649
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:38.639
<v Speaker 3>way we talk about it.

650
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:44.079
<v Speaker 4>I think that the relationship between science and religion has

651
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:48.840
<v Speaker 4>flipped one hundred and eighty degrees, and they'll get to

652
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:52.639
<v Speaker 4>this later in the book, But from about fourteen hundred

653
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:57.800
<v Speaker 4>to nineteen hundred, roughly, you had a situation in which

654
00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:00.719
<v Speaker 4>a variety of phenomena that had been and seen as

655
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:05.079
<v Speaker 4>evidence for God were explained by science. And that's where

656
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:08.400
<v Speaker 4>the phrase God of the gaps comes from that, and

657
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:13.480
<v Speaker 4>science progressively reduced the number of gaps and apparently reduced

658
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:19.000
<v Speaker 4>the space for religion. And in the twentieth century, starting

659
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:24.440
<v Speaker 4>with the astronomical discoveries in the early part of the century,

660
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:29.880
<v Speaker 4>it's science that has discovered new phenomena we didn't even

661
00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:33.239
<v Speaker 4>know existed, for which they have no answers. So the

662
00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:37.719
<v Speaker 4>Big Bang is the classic example. Are the three choices?

663
00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:40.400
<v Speaker 4>Are we just the beneficiaries of a one on a

664
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:42.840
<v Speaker 4>trillion chance, which is kind of hard.

665
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:43.119
<v Speaker 2>To deal with?

666
00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:48.719
<v Speaker 4>Do we have a million universes? So that that's not

667
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:52.519
<v Speaker 4>real plausible either, which leads you with the alternative that

668
00:39:54.320 --> 00:40:01.960
<v Speaker 4>the parsimonious plausible statement is the universe was intentionally created

669
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:06.760
<v Speaker 4>for some purpose. It's not random. It's not Richard Dawkins

670
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:13.280
<v Speaker 4>Pitilla's in different universe. That's by the way, I have

671
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:15.920
<v Speaker 4>a quote I really love well. It begins the chapter

672
00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:18.800
<v Speaker 4>in The Big Bang, I think Rutford Jastro saying that

673
00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:22.559
<v Speaker 4>the scientists who have been studying the universe and cosmology

674
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:26.760
<v Speaker 4>clamber over the final rock, ready to make the final discovery.

675
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:29.119
<v Speaker 4>And there's a band of theologians that has been sitting

676
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:33.239
<v Speaker 4>there for centuries. And also in the case of consciousness

677
00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:38.960
<v Speaker 4>existing independently of the mind, that's science has let us

678
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:45.000
<v Speaker 4>discover those possibilities, and it can't explain them through standard

679
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:46.360
<v Speaker 4>scientific paradigms.

680
00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:53.639
<v Speaker 2>Charles Peter here again, in a way, I have another

681
00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:55.840
<v Speaker 2>question for you. Then I think back to Steve, and

682
00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:57.639
<v Speaker 2>in a way, it's getting back to this, which side

683
00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:03.199
<v Speaker 2>of the bell curves went on. I feel I may

684
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:05.880
<v Speaker 2>be mistaken, but I feel that many people feel that religion,

685
00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:12.119
<v Speaker 2>spiritual matters, all these things are fundamentally intuitive. And you say,

686
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:15.159
<v Speaker 2>I listened to a good deal of your conversation the

687
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:18.440
<v Speaker 2>other day with Nick abersat at AEI, and you said

688
00:41:18.440 --> 00:41:22.280
<v Speaker 2>something that I found very striking. I'm going to paraphrase you.

689
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.679
<v Speaker 2>I can't quite quote it, but this is a close

690
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:29.400
<v Speaker 2>paraphrase that once you begin taking these matters seriously, you

691
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:34.519
<v Speaker 2>discover that spiritual matters are among the most intellectually exhilarating.

692
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:38.119
<v Speaker 2>I think that's the phrase you used, intellectually exhilarating subjects

693
00:41:38.599 --> 00:41:42.199
<v Speaker 2>you will ever have encountered. And I thought to myself,

694
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:48.599
<v Speaker 2>coming from Charles Murray, who more than most people, Martini's

695
00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:54.159
<v Speaker 2>aside lives in his mind, that is a very arresting statement.

696
00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:55.639
<v Speaker 2>Could you unfold that a bit?

697
00:41:56.800 --> 00:42:03.239
<v Speaker 4>Well, I will give a concrete example of I'm starting

698
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:08.119
<v Speaker 4>to get more interested in Christianity after I read C. S.

699
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:13.880
<v Speaker 4>Lewis's Mere Christianity. But then I immediately run into the

700
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:18.159
<v Speaker 4>revisionist literature on Christianity, the bart Ehraman's of the World,

701
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:22.880
<v Speaker 4>and who argue that, oh, the Gospels weren't even really

702
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:25.159
<v Speaker 4>written in the ordinary sense of that word. They were

703
00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:32.000
<v Speaker 4>incrementally put together, redacted, augmented by anonymous authors. We have

704
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:34.320
<v Speaker 4>no idea who wrote the Gospels, et cetera, et ceter

705
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:38.719
<v Speaker 4>and we really have no clear idea of what Jesus

706
00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:44.360
<v Speaker 4>really said. And that was all very aerod diede and

707
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:49.320
<v Speaker 4>it was even persuasive. But then I came across the

708
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.519
<v Speaker 4>title of a book I don't know how called Jesus

709
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:55.440
<v Speaker 4>and the Eyewitnesses, and.

710
00:42:57.159 --> 00:42:57.840
<v Speaker 1>It was a book.

711
00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:04.079
<v Speaker 4>The thesis was that the Gospels are very clearly intended

712
00:43:04.119 --> 00:43:08.679
<v Speaker 4>to emphasize the degree to which they're based on eyewitness testimony.

713
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:15.199
<v Speaker 4>Point Number one. Part of being exhilarated is to have

714
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:19.280
<v Speaker 4>a fresh take on things, and all at once. Here

715
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:24.880
<v Speaker 4>is out of the tired nihilism of the revisionist scholarship.

716
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:27.840
<v Speaker 4>Here is this thing saying, actually, you go back to

717
00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:30.079
<v Speaker 4>the Gospels. There's a lot of eyewitness stuff in here,

718
00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:33.440
<v Speaker 4>and here are my reasons for arguing that, which involves

719
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:38.880
<v Speaker 4>some really interesting understandings of Aramaic and the original languages

720
00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:42.360
<v Speaker 4>in which the New Testament was written. And there are

721
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:47.000
<v Speaker 4>sentences that make more sense if what you're really reading

722
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:53.400
<v Speaker 4>is Peter's a transcription of Peter's testimony to Mark, but

723
00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:57.920
<v Speaker 4>it should read we went across the river, we cross

724
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:01.320
<v Speaker 4>the sea, and instead they used the they did. But

725
00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:05.960
<v Speaker 4>it's a very sophisticated book. So at the same time,

726
00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:11.079
<v Speaker 4>I had a scholar who was taking an unpopular stance,

727
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:15.280
<v Speaker 4>documenting it to a fare thee well and documenting it

728
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:20.239
<v Speaker 4>in really ingenious ways. And I just love that, and

729
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:22.800
<v Speaker 4>that that's true of a lot of the other things

730
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:26.320
<v Speaker 4>that I got into in the traditional defense of the

731
00:44:26.360 --> 00:44:30.760
<v Speaker 4>New Testament, where I say, you know what, this is

732
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:34.480
<v Speaker 4>meeting all of my tests for plausibility, and tests that

733
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:37.039
<v Speaker 4>the revisionists fail miserably.

734
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:40.159
<v Speaker 1>Well, let me Charles Tross to an end with a

735
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:44.320
<v Speaker 1>sharper version of Peter's question. So, by the way, Charlie Cook,

736
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:47.239
<v Speaker 1>if you run out of time. Read the last chapter

737
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:50.559
<v Speaker 1>of the book where Charles restates the whole book and

738
00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:52.199
<v Speaker 1>puts it in a summary form.

739
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:53.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to read the thing.

740
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:54.920
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to read the whole thing. I always did.

741
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:58.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm a completionist, right, and you'll be converted by the end.

742
00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:01.440
<v Speaker 1>We think that's that's what Peter Robinson while anyway, there's

743
00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:03.400
<v Speaker 1>a fragment of a sentence here towards the end of

744
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:07.519
<v Speaker 1>Charles Murray where you say God must not be anthropomorphized.

745
00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:10.679
<v Speaker 1>And I'm in heated agreement with that statement for a

746
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:14.840
<v Speaker 1>bunch of reasons, and it's absolutely the unknowability of God.

747
00:45:15.079 --> 00:45:18.239
<v Speaker 1>I've long ago became something of a fan of the

748
00:45:18.280 --> 00:45:21.599
<v Speaker 1>Protestant theologian Karl Bart, even though I'm more Catholic in

749
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:25.719
<v Speaker 1>my theological sensibilities. Generally, he said God is holy other

750
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:28.840
<v Speaker 1>gone's under as the German phrase work right, in other words,

751
00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:33.519
<v Speaker 1>that we cannot have rational knowledge of the nature of God.

752
00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:39.480
<v Speaker 1>And so my challenge is is that that has to be,

753
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:43.400
<v Speaker 1>in other words, the final to use Cureguard's phrase, But

754
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.719
<v Speaker 1>I don't actually like the leap of faith. That's got

755
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:49.679
<v Speaker 1>to be hard for you, given your rational empirical nature.

756
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:55.280
<v Speaker 4>Exactly and it's not a leap of faith. Things can

757
00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:58.920
<v Speaker 4>make more sense to me if, for example, I keep

758
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:04.000
<v Speaker 4>reminding myself that God exists outside time, which not all

759
00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:09.760
<v Speaker 4>theologians agree with, but some, some pretty good ones do, because,

760
00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:13.079
<v Speaker 4>for example, you have billions of people praying to God

761
00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:16.519
<v Speaker 4>and he's supposed to listen to all those and maybe

762
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:21.199
<v Speaker 4>there are more billions of beings on other planets are well,

763
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:25.960
<v Speaker 4>if God is outside time, that's no problem because there's

764
00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:28.639
<v Speaker 4>no rush, you know, he doesn't have to do things

765
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:35.360
<v Speaker 4>sequentially and in a variety of other ways. I don't

766
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:38.480
<v Speaker 4>want to anthropomorphize him because it makes it too easy

767
00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:41.119
<v Speaker 4>to condescend to him, and of course you shouldn't use

768
00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:43.920
<v Speaker 4>the word him. That's why I like to use the

769
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:47.880
<v Speaker 4>analogy between me and God and me and my dog.

770
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:51.800
<v Speaker 4>That and even though my dog is half Border Collie

771
00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:54.480
<v Speaker 4>and is way too smart for his own good, he

772
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:57.800
<v Speaker 4>doesn't have the slightest idea of what I am in

773
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:02.519
<v Speaker 4>any important way. And even I'm pretty smart, I don't

774
00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:06.760
<v Speaker 4>have the slightest idea of what God is in any

775
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:13.639
<v Speaker 4>concrete way. I can the concept, for example, that God

776
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:18.599
<v Speaker 4>is love. Well, it's not just somebody like c s Lewis.

777
00:47:19.159 --> 00:47:23.840
<v Speaker 4>My wife got started on all this because the love

778
00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:26.840
<v Speaker 4>she felt for our new daughter Anna back in nineteen

779
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:31.719
<v Speaker 4>eighty five was, as she put it in her brilliant phrase,

780
00:47:32.360 --> 00:47:35.039
<v Speaker 4>she loved Anna far more than evolution required.

781
00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:39.400
<v Speaker 2>And see, this is what happens with.

782
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:44.360
<v Speaker 4>People like us, you know, when you've got an Oxford

783
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:47.159
<v Speaker 4>and a Yale degree, you say things like I loved

784
00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:51.800
<v Speaker 4>her far more than evolution required. And she felt that

785
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:56.559
<v Speaker 4>she was being a conduit for some greater love, which

786
00:47:56.599 --> 00:48:00.920
<v Speaker 4>is very much like C. S. Lewis's argument that a

787
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:04.719
<v Speaker 4>lot of the moral law is God's way of revealing

788
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:09.119
<v Speaker 4>himself to us. And so I have I can say

789
00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:13.480
<v Speaker 4>to that degree I can understand God. But I just

790
00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:16.239
<v Speaker 4>want to keep in mind that's just a tiny part.

791
00:48:17.239 --> 00:48:18.840
<v Speaker 1>Well you know, Gosh, I'm going to go back and

792
00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:20.480
<v Speaker 1>find this. A few months ago I wrote a long

793
00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:24.639
<v Speaker 1>essay on my substack called can God time Travel? And

794
00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:26.519
<v Speaker 1>I think I said, no, that's a ridiculous question. But

795
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:28.920
<v Speaker 1>I forget my chain of reasoning. But I wish we

796
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:31.119
<v Speaker 1>had time to talk about C. S. Lewis. I've got

797
00:48:31.159 --> 00:48:34.360
<v Speaker 1>my old copy of the Abolition of Man, which I read,

798
00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:36.920
<v Speaker 1>according to my fly leaf in nineteen seventy six, when

799
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:38.880
<v Speaker 1>I was a senior in high school, and I'm still

800
00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:41.199
<v Speaker 1>reading it now, all these years later. And so my

801
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:44.480
<v Speaker 1>last question is where to from here are you going to?

802
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:47.239
<v Speaker 1>How are you going to extend your speculations from here?

803
00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:49.679
<v Speaker 1>And can we expect maybe some more articles or maybe

804
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:51.800
<v Speaker 1>even a sequel book to this? Oh?

805
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:55.079
<v Speaker 4>No, no more articles, the more secret. Well, I too

806
00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:57.800
<v Speaker 4>quickly say that there are no more books. I've been

807
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:03.360
<v Speaker 4>caught out. I keep writing another one, but I'm really.

808
00:49:03.320 --> 00:49:08.400
<v Speaker 2>Obvious we will all be meeting Charles in purgatory. We

809
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:11.599
<v Speaker 2>will have ten thousand years to get really good at poker.

810
00:49:11.960 --> 00:49:19.519
<v Speaker 4>Well, what I see as my next steps are to

811
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:23.480
<v Speaker 4>try to join the party. I'm referring to something I

812
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:25.960
<v Speaker 4>say on the last page of the book that I

813
00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:28.920
<v Speaker 4>often feel like a small boy with his nose pressed

814
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:32.239
<v Speaker 4>against the glass, watching a party on the other side

815
00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:36.079
<v Speaker 4>that he can't join. And I'm referring to people like Peter,

816
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:40.159
<v Speaker 4>who has access to the kinds of joys I don't

817
00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:42.840
<v Speaker 4>yet have access to, and I would still like to.

818
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:47.159
<v Speaker 4>And it's also true that I still have this person

819
00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:51.719
<v Speaker 4>living with me named Catherine, who is at about one

820
00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:56.239
<v Speaker 4>hundred and thirty five on the distribution of perceptual spiritual perception,

821
00:49:57.039 --> 00:49:59.559
<v Speaker 4>and figure if I hang out with her another ten

822
00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:01.440
<v Speaker 4>or fifty years, maybe I'll get there.

823
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:05.719
<v Speaker 2>Charles. Does Catherine say to you, oh, Charles, I'm so

824
00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:08.920
<v Speaker 2>delighted that you've been able to work your way to

825
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.000
<v Speaker 2>the Or does she say, Charles, it's about time.

826
00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:17.679
<v Speaker 4>I do remember a conversation we had maybe twenty years ago,

827
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:22.159
<v Speaker 4>maybe fifteen before I had got I was sort of

828
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:25.719
<v Speaker 4>a little ways along on this, and we were talking

829
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:27.639
<v Speaker 4>and she just looked at me and said, Charles, you

830
00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:32.599
<v Speaker 4>believe it to God? She announced it to me, and

831
00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:37.239
<v Speaker 4>I said, well, yeah, I guess I do. And she

832
00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:41.559
<v Speaker 4>also her other role in life is to lovingly roll

833
00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:44.800
<v Speaker 4>her eyes as I get interested in something like the

834
00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:47.760
<v Speaker 4>Shroud of Turin, or for that matter, when I am

835
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:52.360
<v Speaker 4>interested in other historicity of the Bible, because to her,

836
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:57.239
<v Speaker 4>that's largely beside the point that it's the substance lies

837
00:50:57.320 --> 00:51:02.719
<v Speaker 4>in Jesus' teachings, lies in the kinds of ways you

838
00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:08.519
<v Speaker 4>can enrich your life by contemplation and prayer. And her

839
00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:12.679
<v Speaker 4>husband is out there being the empiricist again and looking

840
00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:16.960
<v Speaker 4>up news sources and putting together data, and I think

841
00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:19.760
<v Speaker 4>she thinks it's kind of cute, and I think she's

842
00:51:20.119 --> 00:51:25.480
<v Speaker 4>glad that I'm doing it, But she's way further along

843
00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:27.840
<v Speaker 4>than I am. She does not have she does not

844
00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:29.159
<v Speaker 4>have her point that out to me.

845
00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:33.199
<v Speaker 2>If you know, I so love the idea that there's

846
00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:35.559
<v Speaker 2>someone on the face of the earth who looks at

847
00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:38.039
<v Speaker 2>Charles Murray and says, oh, he's so cute.

848
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:41.400
<v Speaker 4>Well, so I'm really glad she thinks so, and she

849
00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:43.159
<v Speaker 4>believe and use that phrase.

850
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:43.559
<v Speaker 2>But.

851
00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:45.559
<v Speaker 1>She does not.

852
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:50.719
<v Speaker 4>She does not condescend to me. But if you if

853
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:52.519
<v Speaker 4>you know Catherine, she know she would never do.

854
00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:55.440
<v Speaker 1>That, right, Well, I do, and Charles give her my

855
00:51:55.480 --> 00:51:58.559
<v Speaker 1>best and thanks for joining us. Good luck with this book,

856
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:01.639
<v Speaker 1>so much fun. We'll catch up in person sometime soon,

857
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:02.119
<v Speaker 1>I hope.

858
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:02.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

859
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:05.400
<v Speaker 4>Well, I would just assumably not take another ten years

860
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:06.880
<v Speaker 4>before I'm on a ricochet again.

861
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:11.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, it's a date deal, right, byebye Charles, Bye

862
00:52:11.079 --> 00:52:16.920
<v Speaker 1>bye toaqre Well try to cout. The other big story

863
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:19.280
<v Speaker 1>this week, which I gather you follow as part of

864
00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:22.639
<v Speaker 1>your duties of hosting law Talk, is the oral argument

865
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:25.880
<v Speaker 1>at the Supreme Court over racial jerry mandering under the

866
00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:28.920
<v Speaker 1>Voting Rights Act, where once again we had the delight

867
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:33.320
<v Speaker 1>of watching Justice Ktanji Brown Jackson make an utter fool

868
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:36.920
<v Speaker 1>of herself. But beyond the spectacle, what are your takeaways

869
00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:37.960
<v Speaker 1>from what we heard this week?

870
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:40.960
<v Speaker 3>Well, we talked about this on the most recent Law

871
00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:44.360
<v Speaker 3>Talk this week, and I asked John You and Richard

872
00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:46.719
<v Speaker 3>Epstein to explain this to me, because on the surface

873
00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:54.159
<v Speaker 3>it seems incomprehensible. You have Louisiana passing these redistricting maps.

874
00:52:54.800 --> 00:53:00.880
<v Speaker 3>They pass a map and the map apparently dilutes minority

875
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:06.760
<v Speaker 3>votes too much and thereby is in violation of Section

876
00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:09.159
<v Speaker 3>two of the Voting Rights Act. So they pass a

877
00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:13.760
<v Speaker 3>new map that creates a second district in which minorities

878
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:17.280
<v Speaker 3>are a majority, and that's illegal because it violates the

879
00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:22.199
<v Speaker 3>equal protection clauses. So they just can't win. They create

880
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:27.639
<v Speaker 3>a minority rich district that's racial gerrymandering, and if they don't,

881
00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:32.440
<v Speaker 3>then they're violating the Voting Rights Act. The problem, obviously,

882
00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:37.320
<v Speaker 3>is that both parts of the Constitution that are relevant

883
00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:41.719
<v Speaker 3>here are fighting. You've got the fifteenth Amendment and its

884
00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:44.639
<v Speaker 3>expression in the Voting Rights Act against the Fourteenth Amendment.

885
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:49.639
<v Speaker 3>So it's tough. But from what I understand, the real

886
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.480
<v Speaker 3>dispute is where the Section two of the Voting Rights

887
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:58.679
<v Speaker 3>Act actually requires the creation of majority minority district and

888
00:53:58.760 --> 00:54:03.960
<v Speaker 3>also whether the Supreme Court ought to assume that conditions

889
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:06.480
<v Speaker 3>in the United States are the same in twenty twenty

890
00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:09.280
<v Speaker 3>five as they were in nineteen sixty five, which they're

891
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:10.239
<v Speaker 3>very clearly not.

892
00:54:11.480 --> 00:54:11.599
<v Speaker 1>So.

893
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:15.280
<v Speaker 3>I suspect what's going to happen in this case is

894
00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:18.119
<v Speaker 3>that there will be a majority, probably six to three

895
00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:24.159
<v Speaker 3>of justices who say, look, we are not allowed, absent

896
00:54:24.199 --> 00:54:29.920
<v Speaker 3>extraordinary circumstances, to sanction government decisions that are explicitly based

897
00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:33.920
<v Speaker 3>on race. This is a government decision that is explicitly

898
00:54:34.159 --> 00:54:36.920
<v Speaker 3>based on race. Section two is not quite as clear

899
00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:41.119
<v Speaker 3>as progressives claim it is in justifying it, and even

900
00:54:41.199 --> 00:54:45.199
<v Speaker 3>if it were, the reality on the ground is not

901
00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:48.079
<v Speaker 3>remotely close to what it was in nineteen sixty five.

902
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:50.960
<v Speaker 3>And so what you might get, although I think this

903
00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:53.800
<v Speaker 3>is questionable on originalist grounds, but what you might get

904
00:54:53.920 --> 00:55:00.159
<v Speaker 3>is a version of where, oh gosh, I forgot no

905
00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:03.599
<v Speaker 3>name the Supreme Court justice from Arizona who was the

906
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:04.639
<v Speaker 3>first female.

907
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:08.000
<v Speaker 2>And Andrede O'Connor, thank you, Sandraday O'Connor. You maybe be

908
00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:09.119
<v Speaker 2>forgiven for forgetting.

909
00:55:10.599 --> 00:55:13.119
<v Speaker 3>But Sanderday O'Connor and I wasn't a fan of this

910
00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:15.280
<v Speaker 3>because I don't really think the constitution works like this.

911
00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:18.159
<v Speaker 3>But SANDREDA. O connor famously said that, you know, affirmative

912
00:55:18.159 --> 00:55:21.280
<v Speaker 3>action was okay, but maybe not in twenty years.

913
00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:21.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

914
00:55:21.880 --> 00:55:22.199
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

915
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:25.079
<v Speaker 3>And the thing is with that is that is better

916
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:29.119
<v Speaker 3>than permanent racial discrimination. It's worse than saying racial discrimination

917
00:55:29.239 --> 00:55:32.880
<v Speaker 3>is flatly illegal. So I think the Court just may

918
00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:34.960
<v Speaker 3>go down the road where they say, look, there have

919
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:37.400
<v Speaker 3>been points in our history where this was justified. It

920
00:55:37.480 --> 00:55:40.000
<v Speaker 3>is no longer justified. We're not allowing this one.

921
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:42.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I think one of the clearest things

922
00:55:42.199 --> 00:55:44.920
<v Speaker 1>Chief Justice Roberts has ever said was that counting by

923
00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:47.920
<v Speaker 1>race as a sordid business. And so, Charlie, I think

924
00:55:47.960 --> 00:55:49.760
<v Speaker 1>we saw two things out of it this week. And

925
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:54.039
<v Speaker 1>then Peter, see what you think. One is what you

926
00:55:54.079 --> 00:55:57.599
<v Speaker 1>put it is it's obsolete. I mean in nineteen sixty five,

927
00:55:57.719 --> 00:55:59.480
<v Speaker 1>it was one thing to say in nineteen sixty five

928
00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:02.880
<v Speaker 1>to say, Mintgomery, Alabama, No, I'm sorry, you can't elect

929
00:56:03.079 --> 00:56:06.159
<v Speaker 1>your entire city council with at large, you know, the

930
00:56:06.199 --> 00:56:08.719
<v Speaker 1>whole city votes for five candidates. You have to have

931
00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:13.760
<v Speaker 1>districts where where you know black candidates could possibly get

932
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:16.559
<v Speaker 1>a majority. Okay, I think we've gone from something like

933
00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:20.599
<v Speaker 1>I think in around numbers one hundred elected blacks in

934
00:56:20.760 --> 00:56:23.280
<v Speaker 1>office in the old States of the Confederacy to now

935
00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:26.079
<v Speaker 1>over ten thousand. So why do we still need to

936
00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:28.440
<v Speaker 1>be doing it this way? And then connected to it,

937
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:32.679
<v Speaker 1>I think you really saw exposed this week, especially Soda

938
00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:40.679
<v Speaker 1>Mayor and Jackson, the transparency of why they want these

939
00:56:40.719 --> 00:56:44.480
<v Speaker 1>districts done. They want to elect black Democrats. And I

940
00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:46.360
<v Speaker 1>thought it was very effectively parried by one of the

941
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:50.320
<v Speaker 1>advocates for Louisiana that in fact, there are something like

942
00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:53.119
<v Speaker 1>what sixty black members of Congress or members of the

943
00:56:53.239 --> 00:56:55.280
<v Speaker 1>senior loves of the government, and only fifteen of them

944
00:56:55.280 --> 00:57:00.480
<v Speaker 1>are in majority minority districts. And then politically here I've

945
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:03.519
<v Speaker 1>always said for long time to liberals, I said, well,

946
00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:05.559
<v Speaker 1>wait a minute, is it a good thing? Isn't this

947
00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:09.480
<v Speaker 1>really creating a ghetto? Shouldn't you want white candidates to

948
00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:12.360
<v Speaker 1>appeal to black voters and black candidates to appeal to

949
00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:15.400
<v Speaker 1>white voters. Is it on our politics more healthy that

950
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:18.159
<v Speaker 1>way than in trying to divide us up and say

951
00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:23.000
<v Speaker 1>your political interest in ideology should be determined by your melonin.

952
00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:26.599
<v Speaker 2>Level correct correct correct, by the way I was struck.

953
00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:30.079
<v Speaker 2>I didn't follow them the arguments or the case with

954
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:33.079
<v Speaker 2>anything like the degree of interest that you and Charlie did.

955
00:57:33.199 --> 00:57:38.679
<v Speaker 2>But arguing for I believe this Solicitor General and for

956
00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:44.239
<v Speaker 2>the State of Louisiana were a lawyer with a Hispanic

957
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:48.239
<v Speaker 2>surname and another lawyer who was clearly of South Asian,

958
00:57:48.320 --> 00:57:52.119
<v Speaker 2>Indian or Pakistani descent, the idea that we're in nineteen

959
00:57:52.119 --> 00:57:56.519
<v Speaker 2>sixty five is absurd. My question would be as follows

960
00:57:56.559 --> 00:58:00.480
<v Speaker 2>to follow up on if I may on, This is

961
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:03.559
<v Speaker 2>not me just making yak talk. This is me asking

962
00:58:03.599 --> 00:58:08.559
<v Speaker 2>a real question to see what Charlie thinks. I interviewed

963
00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:13.599
<v Speaker 2>three or four months ago Justice Alito and Justice Alito rather,

964
00:58:13.719 --> 00:58:18.400
<v Speaker 2>to my surprise, the way he's very cautious, speaks in

965
00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:24.039
<v Speaker 2>measured terms. Even his demeanor is measured and moderate and cautious.

966
00:58:24.880 --> 00:58:27.679
<v Speaker 2>But the one place that he was just explicit, so

967
00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:29.800
<v Speaker 2>to speak, on Varnish, not that he spoke with any

968
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:34.960
<v Speaker 2>particular anger or energy, but he was absolutely explicit in

969
00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:38.280
<v Speaker 2>his view that the Constitution is color blind and that

970
00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:44.199
<v Speaker 2>drawing distinctions based on race is unconstitutional, full stop. Now

971
00:58:44.679 --> 00:58:47.000
<v Speaker 2>this is in my head because I'm doing I'll be

972
00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:51.639
<v Speaker 2>interviewing Justice Thomas on Monday morning, and I looked at

973
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:55.480
<v Speaker 2>his concurrence as Students for Fair Admissions versus Harvard, which

974
00:58:55.519 --> 00:59:01.159
<v Speaker 2>held two years ago that admissions Patscha, Sora Dey, O'Connor,

975
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:04.559
<v Speaker 2>and Grutter saying, well, as long as you mean well

976
00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:10.000
<v Speaker 2>and as long as we can expect discrimination in admissions

977
00:59:10.079 --> 00:59:14.119
<v Speaker 2>university admissions to fade over time, it's constitutional. And in

978
00:59:14.199 --> 00:59:16.239
<v Speaker 2>Students for Fair Admissions, the Court found that it just

979
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:21.440
<v Speaker 2>wasn't constitutional. And in his concurrence, Justice Thomas was utterly

980
00:59:21.519 --> 00:59:27.239
<v Speaker 2>explicit and really quite ringing in the You could almost

981
00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:29.000
<v Speaker 2>hear him saying it almost felt like a piece of

982
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:34.480
<v Speaker 2>oratory rather than a dry analytical document. Again, that the

983
00:59:34.519 --> 00:59:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Constitution is color blind. Is the court fight with all

984
00:59:39.880 --> 00:59:45.519
<v Speaker 2>of this jeremndring. If making distinctions based on race is unconstitutional,

985
00:59:46.159 --> 00:59:49.639
<v Speaker 2>then we stop our analysis right there. This gets thrown out.

986
00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:53.760
<v Speaker 2>We stopped just trying to parse how things were in

987
00:59:53.840 --> 00:59:56.039
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty five, We just stop it right there. Does

988
00:59:56.079 --> 00:59:57.719
<v Speaker 2>the Court have the guts to go that far?

989
00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:01.480
<v Speaker 3>So I actually slightly disagree with the analogy because I

990
01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:04.239
<v Speaker 3>do think there's a legal wrinkle here. If you look,

991
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:08.519
<v Speaker 3>for example, at the question of affirmative action. You mentioned, yes,

992
01:00:08.679 --> 01:00:13.360
<v Speaker 3>affirmative action is, in my estimation, banned both in statute

993
01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:16.760
<v Speaker 3>by the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four and

994
01:00:17.199 --> 01:00:20.760
<v Speaker 3>by the Fourteenth Amendment. That is a clear case. I'm

995
01:00:20.760 --> 01:00:23.559
<v Speaker 3>with Alita. I watched your excellent interview of him, and

996
01:00:23.639 --> 01:00:27.000
<v Speaker 3>I see why he was emphatic. The wrinkle here is

997
01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:31.320
<v Speaker 3>that while the Fourteenth Amendment bans racial discrimination, the Fifteenth

998
01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:35.519
<v Speaker 3>Amendment leaves it up to Congress to enforce voting rights,

999
01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:39.719
<v Speaker 3>and it gives it some wiggle room to consider race.

1000
01:00:39.760 --> 01:00:41.679
<v Speaker 3>And the reason for that, obviously is that if you

1001
01:00:41.719 --> 01:00:45.159
<v Speaker 3>look at the South at the time, it was predicted

1002
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:50.000
<v Speaker 3>correctly that Southern states would try to prevent freed slaves

1003
01:00:50.360 --> 01:00:53.679
<v Speaker 3>from voting. Where I think progressives have made a big

1004
01:00:53.719 --> 01:00:57.880
<v Speaker 3>mistake is they conflate voting rights, that is, making sure

1005
01:00:57.920 --> 01:01:00.320
<v Speaker 3>that people are not prevented from voting based on their

1006
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:03.920
<v Speaker 3>skin color, with racial gerrymandering, which is not the same thing.

1007
01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:08.679
<v Speaker 3>And that quote from Justice Jackson where she said black

1008
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:13.800
<v Speaker 3>voters are disabled was preposterous because she wasn't suggesting that

1009
01:01:13.840 --> 01:01:16.239
<v Speaker 3>black voters are unable to vote, they can't go to

1010
01:01:16.280 --> 01:01:18.480
<v Speaker 3>the polling place, they can't fill in the mail ballot.

1011
01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:21.039
<v Speaker 3>She was suggesting that if they are not given their

1012
01:01:21.039 --> 01:01:25.199
<v Speaker 3>own racial enclaves, then they're somehow unable to participate in

1013
01:01:25.239 --> 01:01:28.039
<v Speaker 3>American democracy. But I do think it's slightly more complicated

1014
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:32.199
<v Speaker 3>than the other areas where I'm one hundred percent against

1015
01:01:32.199 --> 01:01:36.719
<v Speaker 3>any racial questioning whatsoever, because the fifteenth Amendment does allow

1016
01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:40.119
<v Speaker 3>Congress to consider it in an affirmative sense. It's just

1017
01:01:40.159 --> 01:01:42.000
<v Speaker 3>that they've taken it way too far. And now what

1018
01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:47.960
<v Speaker 3>they're doing is they're creating areas within states in which

1019
01:01:48.280 --> 01:01:53.360
<v Speaker 3>the government, the federal government no less, basically says the

1020
01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:59.079
<v Speaker 3>Democrat has to win because they conflate Democrat and African American.

1021
01:01:59.360 --> 01:02:02.519
<v Speaker 3>So it is slightly different. But yeah, I mean, the

1022
01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:04.880
<v Speaker 3>last thing I'll say is it has annoyed me in

1023
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:07.119
<v Speaker 3>the media coverage because the media coverage has all been

1024
01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:11.639
<v Speaker 3>conservative justices may weeken Voting Rights Act, but you could

1025
01:02:11.719 --> 01:02:16.280
<v Speaker 3>just as easily write conservative justices may bolster equal protection Clause,

1026
01:02:16.400 --> 01:02:16.840
<v Speaker 3>which is.

1027
01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:19.360
<v Speaker 2>Good nice, yeah, yes.

1028
01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:22.079
<v Speaker 1>Well all right, so both of you mentioning Justice Alito

1029
01:02:22.519 --> 01:02:24.760
<v Speaker 1>allows me to circle back to where we began with

1030
01:02:24.880 --> 01:02:28.599
<v Speaker 1>Charles Murray because I'm reliably informed the Justice Alito is

1031
01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:31.960
<v Speaker 1>a Jen Martini man, a dry gen Martine man, and

1032
01:02:32.039 --> 01:02:34.280
<v Speaker 1>not with an ollif this is what havi Arcis tells me,

1033
01:02:34.320 --> 01:02:36.880
<v Speaker 1>who knows him well and as another fellow Martini man.

1034
01:02:37.400 --> 01:02:40.719
<v Speaker 1>But that brings us to the end of our show today.

1035
01:02:41.360 --> 01:02:44.239
<v Speaker 1>This podcast brought to you by Ricochet dot com. Please

1036
01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:47.440
<v Speaker 1>support the site by becoming a member. It's the best

1037
01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:51.880
<v Speaker 1>place for civil center right conversation. My Ricochet union contract

1038
01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:54.480
<v Speaker 1>requires me to remind everyone to take a moment and

1039
01:02:54.559 --> 01:02:57.960
<v Speaker 1>leave a five star review at Apple Podcasts or Spotify

1040
01:02:58.079 --> 01:02:59.840
<v Speaker 1>or the other places where you may source your pod

1041
01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:04.079
<v Speaker 1>cast material. It brings us new listeners uh and uh

1042
01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:07.440
<v Speaker 1>and makes us allows us to grow our audience. And Peter,

1043
01:03:07.599 --> 01:03:09.199
<v Speaker 1>great to see you. We were worried he in the

1044
01:03:09.199 --> 01:03:12.800
<v Speaker 1>witness Protection program somewhere and uh, Charles, I will see

1045
01:03:12.800 --> 01:03:14.880
<v Speaker 1>you again in two weeks. I'm away next week, but

1046
01:03:14.920 --> 01:03:18.159
<v Speaker 1>I will see you again in two weeks. Bye bye, everybody.