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I hope to expand the show even more than it

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already has. Thank you so much. Welcome everyone back to

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the finale, Part eleven of Kudata by Edward Lutvak and

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John Fieldhouse is here to finish it up with me.

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Hey doing, John doing well?

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Speaker 2: I think we're both ready to get this damn thing

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over with.

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Speaker 1: Yep, let's kill this uh and move on? All right,

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I'm just going to start reading. Let's go heading the

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immediate post coup situation Once our targets have been seized,

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the loyalist forces have been isolated, and the rest of

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the bureaucracy and armed forces have been neutralized, the active

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and more mechanical phase of the coup will be over,

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but everything will still be in the balance. The old

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regime will have been deprived of its control over the

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critical parts of the mechanism of the state, but we

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ourselves will not yet be in control of it, except

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in a purely physical sense, and then only in the

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area of the capital city. If we can retain our

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control over what we have seized, those political forces whose

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primary requirement is the preservation of law and order will

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probably give us their allegiance. Our objective, therefore, is to

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freeze the situation, so that this process can take place

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until the actual execution of the coup. Our aim was

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to destabilize the situation. Afterward, however, all our efforts should

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be directed at stabilizing, or rather restabilizing it. We will

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be doing this at three different levels. A among our

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own forces, where our aim is to prevent our military

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or police allies from usurping our leadership. B within the

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state bureaucracy, whose allegiance and cooperation we wish to secure

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and c with the public at large whose accepstance we

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want to gain. In each case, we will be using

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our leverage within one level in order to control the

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next one. But each level will also require separate and

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particular measures.

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Speaker 2: Yeah about that, there's I would say two things. Number One,

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traditional military operations. We always say the most dangerous part

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when you're conducting a direct attack on an objective is

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right after you seized it, because at that point the

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the adrenalines down, you start having physical fatigue set in,

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but you haven't fully consolidated the target, so it's really

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easy for somebody else to come along and attack you

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and drive you off the objective at that point. The

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second one is I've heard it described anytime you're having

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a takeover of authority. The best analogy is probably the

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Call of a While, the chapters where Buck takes over

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a leadership of the pack. So in the beginning he's

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out rightly attacking authority, he's instigating insurrection, he's trying to

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create discontent. But once he's in authority, he has to

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crush all that preferablybiliar with solt power. But you are

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now the authority so you have to act as.

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Speaker 1: An authority ay among our own forces, where our aim

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is to prevent our military or police allies from usurping

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our leadership. From your reading of history and looking studying

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some coups, how often does that happen?

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Speaker 2: I won't keep in mind coups can be hard to

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really analyze because most effective coups you destroy the documents afterwards.

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So the lead up is it tends to be conjecture,

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and it tends to be materials you have from the

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evidence remaining tends to be from Western journalists who not

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only are their bias, they're also oblivious to anything that

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happens in the real world. But that tends to be

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fairly common right, because essentially you're having a coalition of

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people who are cooperating to achieve their objective, and every

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member that coalition has their own idea of what should

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happen afterwards. So I'd say basically every coup is something

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like that. The question is who.

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Speaker 1: Wins new heading stabilizing our own forces. During the planning stage,

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our recruits in the armed forces will be fully conscious

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of the fact that the success of the coup and

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their own safety depends on the work of coordination that

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we perform immediately after the coup. However, the only manifestation

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of all our efforts will be the direct force that

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they themselves control. In these circumstances, they may well be

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tempted into trying a coup of their own, and they

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could do this by establishing contact with the other military

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leaders we have recruited so as to secure their agreement

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to our exclusion from their leadership. Apart from the dispersal

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countermeasures discussed earlier, our only effective defense will be to

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retain full control over all horizontal communications, or in other words,

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to remain the only contact between each military leader we

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have recruited and his colleagues. This can sometimes be done

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technically by keeping under our control the actual communication equipment

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linking the various units, but this would only be effective

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in unusually extensive capital cities and would in any case

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break down after a relatively short period of time. Typically,

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we will need somewhat more subtle political and psychological methods

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to keep the various military leaders we have recruited well

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separated from each other. This may involve promises of accelerated

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promotions to selected younger officers who could not otherwise expect

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very rapid advancement, even within the limited context of those

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who have participated in the coup. It will also be

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useful to remind our military and police allies that their

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colleagues outside the conspiracy may try to displace them and

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block unless they and we form a tight and mutually

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supportive group. In general, we should ensure that all those

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who could pose an internal threat are kept occupied on

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tasks which, whether essential or not, will at least absorb

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their energies, and that there are divers and that there

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are divisive factors operating between them. As soon as we

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begin to receive the allegiance of military and bureaucratic leaders

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who we previously outside the conspiracy, who were previously outside

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the conspiracy, are leveraged with our military and police recruits

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will increase very substantially. The problem of retaining control against

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such internal threats will therefore be largely short term. As

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soon as our position has been established, our best policy

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may be to dispose of our dangerous allies by using

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all the usual methods available for that purpose. Diplomatic posting abroad,

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nominal end or remote command positions, and promotions to less

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vital parts of the state. Apparatus, because it is possible

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that an embryonic coup within our coup has existed within

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our forces from the very beginning. The general security measures

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we design to protect ourselves against the penetration of the

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security agencies will also serve a useful supplementary function. They

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will prevent the lateral spread of the conspiracy if our

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internal security procedures are sufficiently good to prevent all contact

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between the separate cells so that any infiltration by the

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security agencies is contained, they will also prevent the coordination

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of this inner opposition. It has been calculated that in

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a defensive military situation, even if only twenty eight percent

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of the troops of a unit are actively loyal, the

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units concerned should operate successfully and perform their assigned function.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of things that are really important here.

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The first off, he talks about the need to effectively

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control lateral communication amongst your coalition immediately afterwards, which I

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that's something I wouldn't have thought of, And that's a

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very great point because it makes basically you're trying to

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prevent your allies from coordinating around you. The downside of that,

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the difficult part of that, and again the counterproductive part

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of that is effective militaris have huge amounts of lateral communication,

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horizontal communications. Very often they will have more communications horizontally

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than vertically because junior leaders are trained and empowered. I know,

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empowered is a stupid word, but we can say empowered

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to exercise initiative in order to achieve their objectives, which

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means that by eliminating horizontal communications, no matter how well temporarily,

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keep in mind, we are also harming our own combat effectiveness.

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So it's something we need to be very concerned with,

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and it's part of why he emphasizes the need to

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consolidate power and move on, because we don't want to

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hang out in that situation for very long. Another thing,

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he talks about ways you would eliminate either allies who

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could become a risk or other people in the power

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structure who become a risk afterwards, and you know, there's

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a tendency to immediately think, well, we're gonna have a

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purge and we're going to kill them all, and not

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just morally, it creates huge problems with your legal structure

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because it basically undermines any faith in your legal structure,

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and it definitely harms you know the whole, you know,

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collective cooperation at that point. So one of the most

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effective ways to purge people, effectively purge people from an

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organization after something like that, is to promote them and

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retire them and maneuver them in a situation where they

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can't do things. You know, most militaries have academic posts,

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either at the military academy or higher command schools, or

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sometimes even teaching at various level universities where you put

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military historians at the end of the career. All those

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are great ways where you can promote somebody, you know,

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give them a nice cushy assignment into retirement, but while

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you know, effectively purging them from the organization. So creativity matters.

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And I mean the big takeaway from machiabilities to the

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Prince is, you know, sometimes you have to behave altruistically

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in order to you know, get what you want from

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a power politics.

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Speaker 1: Standpoint, stabilizing the bureaucracy. Our attitude towards the second level,

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the armed forces and bureaucracy, which we're not infiltrated before

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the coup, will depend partly on the degree of control

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that we have over our own incorporated forces. Assuming that

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we have a reasonably firm hold over them. We should

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not try to extract any early commitment from the majority

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of soldiers and bureaucrats, whose first information of our existence

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will be the coup itself. Now knowing the extent of

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the conspiracy, their principal preoccupation will be the possible danger

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of those of their positions in the hierarchy. If most

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of the officers of the armed forces or the officials

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of a ministry have joined the coup, those who have

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not are hardly likely to be rewarded subsequently by rapid promotion.

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If the soldiers and bureaucrats realize that the group participating

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in the coup was in reality quite small, they would

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also realize the strength of their own position. The fact

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is that they are collectively indispensable to any government, including

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the one to be formed after the coup. In the

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period immediately after the coup, however, they will probably see

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themselves as isolated individuals whose careers and even lives could

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be in danger. This feeling of insecurity may precipitate two

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alternate alternative reactions, both extreme. They will either step forward

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to assert their loyalty to the leaders of the coup,

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or else they will try to foment or join an

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opposition against US boss are undesirable from our point of view.

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Assertions of loyalty will usually be worthless because they are

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made by men who have just abandoned their previous and

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possibly more legitimate masters. Opposition will always be dangerous and

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sometimes disastrous. Our policy toward the military and bureaucratic cadres

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will be to reduce this sense of insecurity. We should

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establish direct communication with as many of the more senior

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officers and officials as possible to convey one principal idea

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in a forceful and convincing matter manner that the coup

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will not threaten their positions in hierarchy and the aims

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of the coup do not include a reshaping of the

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existing military or administrative structures. This requirement will incidentally have

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technical implications in the planning stage, when the sabotage of

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the means of communication must be carried out so as

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to be easily reversible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say on that regard one

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of the interesting things in the NSDAP taking over authority

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in Germany, and just because of my research currently, what

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was brought about or what was brought to my attention

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is Reinhard. Heydrich was known very much when he was

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made head of political police that he largely kept in

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charge the technical people, the skilled professional investigators. In those agencies,

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he eliminated one or two major leaders, and he eliminated

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any person he was thinking as being actively opposed to

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the health and well being of the German state. Generally,

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these are people who are closet undercover communists. But for

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the most part, he co opted them because he said

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most of these people, even when they were his political enemies,

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were German patriots who really wanted the security of Germany.

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So if he could actually co opt them, he ensured

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that not only did they not become punished as enemies

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of the new regime, but he actually gave them a

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stake in the new regime, to the point that Hydrich's

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inner circle largely consisted of men who didn't join the

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SS until he made them joins.

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Speaker 1: So the information campaign over the mass media will also

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reach this narrow but important section of the population, but

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it would be highly desirable to have more direct and

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confidential means of communication with them. The general political aims

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of the coup, as expressed in our pronouncements, on the

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radio and television will help to package our tacit deal

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with the bureaucrats and soldiers, but its real content will

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be the assurance that their careers are not threatened. In

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dealing with particular army or police officers who control especially

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important forces, or with important bureaucrats, we may well decide

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to go further in the sense that an actual exchange

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of promises of mutual support may take place. We should, however,

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remember that our main strength lives in the fact that

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only we have a precise idea of the extent of

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our power. It would be unwise to enter into agreements

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that show we need support urgently. More generally, any information

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that reveals the limits of our capabilities could threaten our position,

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which is essentially based on the fact that our inherent

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weakness is concealed. Again, as an gud.

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Speaker 2: No I was going to say, like any clandestine event

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or activity, just like war itself, the goal is to

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know as much about your enemy as possible, while concealing

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as much of the facts about your situation from the

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enemy as possible.

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Speaker 1: Again, as in the case of our incorporated forces, we

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should make every effort to prevent communication between the cadres

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of the armed forces and bureaucracy outside our group. Such

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communication would usually be indispensable to those who may seek

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to stage a counter coup. The ignorance of the extent

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of the conspiracy will discourage such consultations. It is obviously

265
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dangerous to ask somebody to participate in the opposition to

266
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a group of which he is himself a member, But

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we should also interfere with such consultations directly by using

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our control of the transport and communications infrastructure. New heading

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from power to authority, stabilizing the masses. The masses have

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neither the weapons of the military nor the administrative facilities

271
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of the bureaucracy, but their attitude to the new government

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established after the coup will ultimately be decisive. Our immediate

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aim will be to enforce public order, but our long

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term objective is to gain the acceptance of the masses,

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so that physical coercion will no longer be needed in

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order to secure compliance with our orders. In both phases,

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we shall use our control over the infrastructure and the

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means of coercion, but as the coup recedes in time,

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political means will become increasingly important, physical ones less, so

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our first measures to be taken immediately after the active

281
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phase of the coup will be designed to freeze the

282
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situation by imposing physical immobility. A total curfew, the interruption

283
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of all forms of public transport, the closing of all

284
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public buildings and facilities, and the interruption of the telecommunication

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service will prevent or at any rate impede active resistance

286
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to us. Organized resistance will be very difficult because there

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will be no way of inspiring and coordinating our potential opponents.

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Unorganized resistance is on the part of a mob, will,

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on the other hand, be prevented because the people who

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00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,440
might form such a mob would have to violate the

291
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curfew while acting as individuals, and not many will do

292
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this without the protective shelter of anonymity that only a

293
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,279
crowd can provide the impact of our physical measures will

294
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be reduced outside the capital city, but to the extent

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that the capital city is to focus on the national

296
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network of transport and communications, both physical movement and the

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flow of information will be impeded. The physical controls will

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be purely negative and defensive in character, and our reliance

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on them could be minimal because their concommitment commitments effect

300
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is to enhance the importance of the armed forces we

301
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have subverted. Our second and far more flexible instrument will

302
00:18:05,519 --> 00:18:09,039
be our control over the means of mass communications. Their

303
00:18:09,079 --> 00:18:12,440
importance will be particularly great because the flow of all

304
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other information, notably social media via the Internet, will be

305
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filtered or blocked by our controls. Moreover, the confused and

306
00:18:20,599 --> 00:18:23,279
dramatic events of the coup will mean that the radio

307
00:18:23,319 --> 00:18:27,839
and television services will have a particularly attentive and receptive audience.

308
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In broadcasting over the radio and television services, our purpose

309
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is not to provide information about the situation, but rather

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to affect its development by exploiting our monopoly of those media.

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In the context of filtered or blocked social media, we

312
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will have two principal objectives in the information campaign that

313
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will start immediately after the coup. To discourage resistance to

314
00:18:50,759 --> 00:18:53,680
us by emphasizing the strength of our position, and to

315
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dampen the fears that would otherwise give rise to such resistance.

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Our first objective will be achieved by conveying the reality

317
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and strength of the coup instead of trying to justify it.

318
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This will be done by listing the controls we have imposed,

319
00:19:09,559 --> 00:19:12,319
by emphasizing the law and order, that law and order

320
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,720
have been fully restored, and by stating that all resistance

321
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has ceased. One of the major obstacles to active resistance

322
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,440
will be the fact that we have fragmented the opposition

323
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so that each individual opponent would have to operate in isolation,

324
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cut off from friends and associates. In these circumstances, the

325
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news of any resistance against us would act as a

326
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,039
powerful stimulant to further resistance by breaking down this feeling

327
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of isolation. We must make every effort, therefore, to withhold

328
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such news. If there is in fact some resistance, and

329
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if its intensity and locale are such as to make

330
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,559
it difficult to conceal from particular segments of the public,

331
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we should admit its existence. But we should strongly emphasize

332
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that it is isolated, the product of the obstinacy of

333
00:19:57,079 --> 00:20:00,559
a few misguided or dishonest individuals who are not affiliated

334
00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:03,400
with any party or group or significant membership.

335
00:20:04,319 --> 00:20:06,920
Speaker 2: When you read that, it suddenly becomes clear why that

336
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,599
any kind of mass or any kind of local organizing

337
00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:16,640
against any kind of central government bullshit, like the school

338
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,359
system in Northern Virginia when they were organizing against transactivists

339
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,119
who were, you know, raping their daughters or the stuff

340
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that's currently going on in Io against Haitian migrants. There's

341
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,720
a reason why they first try to, you know, block

342
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,680
any kind of discussion of that and then portray it

343
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,960
in a completely different light. Is they're trying to, above

344
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all else, making sure that people see themselves as eye isolated.

345
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Speaker 1: Well also that and in the process there demonizing that

346
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group exact people on the outside.

347
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, probably the biggest form of communication management,

348
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information management of your enemies is trying to control and

349
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dictate their morality.

350
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Speaker 1: Yeah. There really is no better example right now going

351
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:12,400
on than what's going on in Springfield, Ohio. When I

352
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,759
was just reading this and I just passed this along

353
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,599
to a friend to try and get some information on it,

354
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twenty four houses were sold last year. Three of them.

355
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One was valued at eighteen thousand, another at twenty four thousand,

356
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another forty eight thousand, And each of these twenty four houses,

357
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including those three, were sold for one point six million

358
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:37,960
dollars apiece.

359
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 2: Jesus.

360
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Speaker 1: So, I'm at the point where I think even the

361
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,519
migrant situation is there to try to cover up something else.

362
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,440
It's helping, it's a part of it. This is all

363
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,640
a part of something. But apparently there is either some

364
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,720
insane money laundering going on there or you know, something else,

365
00:22:02,759 --> 00:22:04,640
and that's what we're trying to figure out.

366
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 2: This gets in the realm of conspiracy theory just because

367
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,759
we have no heart evidence, because again they're controlling what

368
00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:16,200
we have access to. But one of the issues that's

369
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,640
been brought up the fact that we essentially we're not

370
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going to have a collapse population wise, but we're going

371
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to have a demographic crunch where you know, our native

372
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population because of birth rates combined with aging, we're just

373
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going to have a contraction in total population. Among other things,

374
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,319
one of the quickest things that affects is housing prices

375
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real estate, both housing prices and commercial. Elon Musk has

376
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,400
pointed out that one of the biggest negative consequences in

377
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,319
terms of the establishment of COVID is suddenly all of

378
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that commercial real estate that banks hold on their balance

379
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:57,279
sheet as assets is basically valueless or as negative value.

380
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So the process of moving migrants in the US, No,

381
00:23:01,519 --> 00:23:03,680
that doesn't do anything for commercial real estate, but it

382
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,559
can make you know, private real estate, residential real estate

383
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,279
increase in value just because you have you know, suddenly

384
00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:14,599
an increased number of people demanding a product in a

385
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,680
market that has limited ability to grow, but so fast.

386
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is all a you know, when you

387
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:29,359
look at this, it's Yaki talked about that from his

388
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:35,680
study of history. It doesn't matter why, but whenever large

389
00:23:35,839 --> 00:23:41,680
groups of foreigners are moved into an existing location that

390
00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:47,519
has a high culture, the existing the existing population stops

391
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,839
their birth rates to climb. Yeahs like like something metaphysical.

392
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,319
Like it's like it's something metaphysical or there's something happening

393
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,960
there that basically causes that to happen. When people see

394
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,759
this influx and then all of a sudden they stop

395
00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:03,599
having children.

396
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an interesting point because that seems to hold

397
00:24:06,799 --> 00:24:10,799
up for whatever reason. When we're done offline, I've got

398
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,279
a document for suggested next read that deals with this directly.

399
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,559
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, all right, let me let let's finish this.

400
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,799
We can. You and I are definitely you and I

401
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:24,400
are definitely the rabbit trail kind of people.

402
00:24:24,599 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 2: Yes, all right.

403
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: The constant working of the motif of isolation, the repetition

404
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,440
of long and detailed list of the administrative and physical

405
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,519
controls we have imposed, and the emphasis on the fact

406
00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:38,839
that law and order have been re established, should have

407
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,599
to effect, should have the effect of making resistance appear

408
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,400
both dangerous and useless. Then he just goes through a

409
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:55,799
first communicate choice of styles romantic, lyrical, messianic, unprepared, rational, administrative.

410
00:24:55,839 --> 00:24:58,079
It's just different kind of I guess this is different

411
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,759
kind of styles that you would use to communicate with

412
00:25:01,519 --> 00:25:04,079
communicate with the people, to let them know what's going on,

413
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,160
and to seek to get their so you get them

414
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:08,839
on your side.

415
00:25:09,039 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what it looks like. And again, all the

416
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,240
charts he has are worthwhile, but none of them are

417
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,400
really good for reading in this format. For listeners at home.

418
00:25:17,599 --> 00:25:19,720
You can get this book for free any number of

419
00:25:19,759 --> 00:25:21,400
places and just look at those.

420
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're reading along with this one, make sure

421
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,519
to get the updated version. I believe it's twenty sixteen,

422
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,279
because a lot of this is not going to be

423
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:30,200
in the original version.

424
00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Internet was not a big issue in the

425
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,240
nineteen sixties.

426
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: Now he wouldn't have been talking about social media.

427
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,319
Speaker 2: Table five point two.

428
00:25:39,759 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: Yep. The second objective of our information campaign will be

429
00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:46,720
to reassure the general public by dispelling fears that the

430
00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:50,240
coup is inspired by foreign and or extremist elements, and

431
00:25:50,319 --> 00:25:52,480
to persuade particular groups that the coup is not a

432
00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:55,000
threat to them. The first aim will be achieved by

433
00:25:55,039 --> 00:25:58,200
manipulating national symbols and by asserting our belief in the

434
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,759
prevailing pieties. In the Arab world, the new regime will

435
00:26:01,799 --> 00:26:05,720
announce its belief in the Arab identity and Islam. Where

436
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,279
the Bath Party was institutionalized, as in Syria, it would

437
00:26:09,319 --> 00:26:12,359
have been necessary to assert our loyalty to the true Bath,

438
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,039
not the corrupted one of the deposed dictator. In Africa,

439
00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:20,039
the new regime will announce its intention of fighting tribalism

440
00:26:20,039 --> 00:26:23,519
at home and racialism abroad. In Latin America, we need

441
00:26:23,559 --> 00:26:27,440
to secure social justice will be invoked everywhere in the

442
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,480
Third World. Nationalist nationalistic rhetoric will be used in references

443
00:26:31,519 --> 00:26:33,880
made to the glorious people of X and the glorious

444
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,039
land of X, which the last regime has degraded. Above all,

445
00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:45,119
repeated denunciations of neo and not so neo colonialism are degear.

446
00:26:46,039 --> 00:26:50,079
Such denunciations will be particularly important where there are a

447
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,440
large where there is a large foreign business enterprise operating

448
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,559
in the country in question, The inevitable. Suspicions that the

449
00:26:56,599 --> 00:26:59,200
coup is a product of the machinations of the company

450
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,680
can only be dispelled by making violent attacks on it. These,

451
00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:07,400
being verbal and not unexpected, will pacify the public without

452
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,720
disturbing the business interests, and the attacks should be all

453
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,599
the more violent if these suspicions are in fact justified.

454
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,480
While the religious attitude leads to the praise of the

455
00:27:19,519 --> 00:27:23,519
gods for one's successes and self blame for one's failures,

456
00:27:23,799 --> 00:27:26,960
the nationalistic attitude is to attribute successes to the nation

457
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,240
and to blame foreigners for its failures. Similarly, the chants

458
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:35,039
in praise of the gods have been replaced by ritualized curses,

459
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,400
variously addressed to different groups of foreigners and their activities.

460
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,079
It's really odd that Litvok would be choosing foreigners as

461
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,519
the scapegoat, Isn't it just? There's nothing personal there right.

462
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 2: A certain amount of projections going along.

463
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: Thus, for the phrase the imperious the imperialist neo colonial

464
00:27:58,759 --> 00:28:03,359
power block the Americans or I or the French, if

465
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,039
it is spoken by Africans of their former colonies. Similarly,

466
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,440
the phrase zionist oil monopolist plotters translates into Jews and Christians.

467
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,279
In the subconscious of the Muslim Arabs who make use of.

468
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:20,559
Speaker 2: It, it still continues to be true.

469
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,839
Speaker 1: How could you argue there may be a purely ideological

470
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,960
element in these denunciations. But even in the nineteen fifties,

471
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,799
when the American extreme right used to denounce the international

472
00:28:31,799 --> 00:28:36,920
conspiracy of godless communism, it was it is significant that

473
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,319
they stigmatized it as un American rather than anti capitalists.

474
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,400
We shall make use of suitable selection of those unlovely phrases,

475
00:28:46,759 --> 00:28:49,880
though their meaning has been totally obscured by constant and

476
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,720
deliberate misuse. They will be useful as indicators of our

477
00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:58,039
impeccable nationalism, and if that is not in reality our position,

478
00:28:58,279 --> 00:29:03,000
they will serve to obscure our retre policy aims. The

479
00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:06,359
flow of information emanating from all the sources under our

480
00:29:06,359 --> 00:29:09,880
control should be coordinated with our other measures. The impositions

481
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,440
of physical controls will be announced and explained, and the

482
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,279
political moves to which we now turn will be suitably presented.

483
00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:21,519
Physical coercion will deter or defeat direct opposition, while the

484
00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:25,640
information campaign will lay the basis of our eventual acquisition

485
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,039
of authority, but only political means will secure for us

486
00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:34,559
a base of active support. Where the pre coup regime

487
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,359
was exceptionally brutal, corrupt, or retrograde, the leaders of the

488
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,559
coup will have little trouble in gaining a generalized form

489
00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:46,160
of acceptance. Even then. However, the active support of specific

490
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,359
groups can only be gained by political accommodation, i e.

491
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,079
By sponsoring policies to serve the interests of particular groups,

492
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,640
thus giving them reasons for becoming committed to or at

493
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:02,039
least interested in our survival. In some Latin American countries,

494
00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:04,599
for example, we could gain the support of the landless

495
00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:07,440
peasants by announcing our intention of carrying out a program

496
00:30:07,599 --> 00:30:11,319
of agrarian reform. In West Africa, we could announce our

497
00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:14,960
intention of increasing the prices paid to peasant producers by

498
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,839
the cocoa marketing brand. In Greece and Turkey, where there

499
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,960
is a heavy burden of agrarian indebtedness, we could announce

500
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,640
a general cancellation of bank debts. Each of these policy

501
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,359
announcements will bind the interests of a large and politically

502
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,480
powerful group to our government, unless we are overtaken by

503
00:30:31,519 --> 00:30:34,519
other rival announcements, but it will also lead to the

504
00:30:34,519 --> 00:30:37,279
hostility of other groups whose interests are damaged by our

505
00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:41,720
intended policies. In Latin America, where the peasants would be

506
00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:45,720
benefit would benefit, the landlords would lose, and Africa, the

507
00:30:45,839 --> 00:30:48,920
urban population would be the loser. In Greece, the taxpayer

508
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,160
would bear the burden of agricultural debt relief. Thus, the

509
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,039
backing of one interest group will generally have at its

510
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,039
com commit the loss of support of, or even actual

511
00:31:01,039 --> 00:31:05,839
hostility from other groups. Clearly it will be that.

512
00:31:06,759 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: Hence an effectively anti white American regime.

513
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the backing of one interest group. We generally

514
00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:18,160
have at its concommitment the loss of support of or

515
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:18,960
even hot Yeah.

516
00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's why that this continued process has been

517
00:31:24,759 --> 00:31:26,640
part of this in the last couple of years has

518
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,319
been the intentional purging of anybody who is to the

519
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,839
right of essentially George W. Bush from the American military.

520
00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:38,480
There hasn't been an organized purge, but they're intentionally sidelining

521
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,480
any kind of senior officers who would appear to have

522
00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:46,279
that kind of orientation. It's a way of furthering, you know,

523
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,720
their security because they know that the American military is

524
00:31:50,839 --> 00:31:54,960
historically a very right wing, at least informally cultural institution,

525
00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:57,640
and they know they're largely opposed to that, so they're

526
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,799
trying to remove an opposing center of power.

527
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: What about NCOs and down right, now.

528
00:32:05,319 --> 00:32:07,559
Speaker 2: That becomes an issue. I don't really have a good

529
00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:11,240
feeling on that. Keep in mind, seeing your n CEO

530
00:32:11,359 --> 00:32:13,759
is like the certain major level basically go through the

531
00:32:13,799 --> 00:32:18,480
same level of review as general officers. Keep in mind,

532
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:25,480
then different sub components of each service are very different. Increasingly,

533
00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:29,319
the regular US Army is a full employment program for

534
00:32:29,359 --> 00:32:29,960
black women.

535
00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:38,359
Speaker 1: I will continue and just let that hang. Clearly, it

536
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,599
will be necessary to estimate the net political support that

537
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,400
a given policy announcement will degenerate. This will mean taking

538
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,160
into account not only the political significance of each group,

539
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,640
but also the immediacy of its political power. In the

540
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,400
context of a Latin American post coup situation, for example,

541
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,519
the goodwill of remote and disperse peasants will not help

542
00:32:58,599 --> 00:33:02,000
us much against the immediate powerful opposition of bureaucratic and

543
00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:05,759
military cadres. If on the other hand, our short term

544
00:33:05,799 --> 00:33:08,119
position is strong, but we are threatened by the longer

545
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,319
term usurpation of power. On the part of our military allies.

546
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,920
Our objective will be to create a counterweight capable eventually

547
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,200
of becoming a source of direct strength a peasant's militia,

548
00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:22,039
for example. Thus, whether we opt out for a left

549
00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:27,160
policy of land reform and longer compassino support or for

550
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,119
our right policy a peasant repression and immediate landowner support

551
00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:33,920
will depend on the balance between the strength of our

552
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:40,240
short and our long term positions. The almost mechanical elements

553
00:33:40,279 --> 00:33:42,960
that are important in the special climate of the immediate

554
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,799
post coup period will distort the normal balance between the

555
00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:50,240
political forces of the country concerned. If therefore our short

556
00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:53,759
term position is not fragile, we should repress the agitation

557
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,960
of those forces that possess a disproportion of strength in

558
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,279
the short term and concentrate instead on cultivating the part

559
00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:03,359
of those groups whose longer term strength is far greater.

560
00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:08,039
An element in our strategy. After the coup is halfway

561
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:11,679
between the information and the political campaign. The problem of

562
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:18,360
legitimizing the coup. Clearly, the coup is by definition illegal,

563
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,679
but whether this illegality matters and whether it is possible

564
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,519
to counteract its effects will depend on the total political

565
00:34:26,599 --> 00:34:27,760
environment of the country.

566
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 2: In question reminder that the United States of America as

567
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,719
a product of two coups in a row, the secession

568
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,199
from the United Kingdom followed by the overthrower of the

569
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,159
Articles of Confederation for a constitution, which means, if you

570
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,360
win very often you can legitimate, legitimate what you've done,

571
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,840
and the fact that it was illegal, nobody's really going

572
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:51,519
to care about them.

573
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: We have seen in chapter two that in much of

574
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,239
the world, except for the rule of law countries, the

575
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,599
legitimacy or lack of legitimacy of the government will not

576
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:07,000
matter greatly. For example, as of twenty fifteen, Italy is

577
00:35:07,079 --> 00:35:10,840
ruled by Matteo Renzi's government, whose ministers included young and

578
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:16,559
attractive female parliamentarians of his own Partito Democratico, as well

579
00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:22,079
as defectors from the Forsa Forza Italia party of Silvio Berlusconi,

580
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,039
who also promoted female parliamentarians so long as they were pretty,

581
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,119
and members of several minor parties, giving Renzi a total

582
00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:32,719
of three hundred and ninety five seats out of six

583
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,920
thirty enough to rule, but all were elected along with

584
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,360
Renzi himself in twenty thirteen, when his party was headed

585
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,920
by Pierre Luigi Bersani, not Renzi. In fact, Renzi only

586
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,440
became the head of government by winning an internal party

587
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,960
primary and then cutting a deal with Berlusconi. Essentially, Italians

588
00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:55,320
ended up being ruled by a politician whom they never

589
00:35:55,360 --> 00:36:00,239
elected except as parliamentarian. But good, it.

590
00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 2: Sounds pretty you know, pretty appropriate, pretty much our situation

591
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,440
at the moment, since we're probably about seven percent chance

592
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,280
because of fortification. But I was just going to say

593
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,079
the fact he keeps harping on the fact they would

594
00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:17,559
only let female parliamentarians in who are attractive, and that's

595
00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:20,800
got to be some Israeli projection, just considering their successful

596
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,159
women politicians have not been.

597
00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you tell me. Gold in my ear wasn't

598
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:30,239
a looker.

599
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: It speaks for itself.

600
00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: But this in itself generates oppositions to the young and

601
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,599
personal Wrenzi. First, what Renzi did as is allowed by

602
00:36:44,639 --> 00:36:47,440
the constitutional system in place, even though it allows a

603
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:53,360
post electoral primary that leaves most Italians unrepresented. Besides, in Italy,

604
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,840
legality is in any case optional, especially in politics, with

605
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,960
contempt for the law much intensified by the transparently politicized

606
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,920
persecution prosecutions of Italian magistrates who openly consort in political

607
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:12,280
groupings of their own, notably the left wing Magia Democratica.

608
00:37:13,079 --> 00:37:15,719
As far as we are concerned, Italy is definitely not

609
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,760
a rule of law country, and our illegitimacy will be

610
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,840
easily swallowed if all else is in place. They're never

611
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,199
going to forgive Titus are the.

612
00:37:25,119 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: Oh well that but I was saying increasingly the United States.

613
00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, so much of this right here. And

614
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,800
even when he goes up here, when he says, you know,

615
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,079
they are never elected and everything. I mean, that's just

616
00:37:38,159 --> 00:37:43,280
the administrative state. It's just different here. It's much bigger

617
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,079
and much more spread out here. And yeah, I know

618
00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:49,079
a lot of people have tried to describe our government

619
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:54,199
as being highly centralized, and I think it's just highly decentralized.

620
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,039
You have no idea who's in charge.

621
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: Elements of it are yeah, even then right like a

622
00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:05,599
formally hierarchy state. One of the things I've heard those

623
00:38:05,679 --> 00:38:08,800
described as is polyarchies, where yeah, you have a central

624
00:38:09,079 --> 00:38:12,960
authority figure who can overrule a lot of things. But

625
00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:15,519
even if they have the effective ability to make an exception,

626
00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:18,840
understand that human attention is finite, so they can only

627
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,280
focus energy on so many things at once, so huge

628
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,719
elements of a large bureaucratic state are going to be

629
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,119
effectively decentralized to a lower level, even if they're authoritarian,

630
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,960
just because that's the reality of you know, human concentration.

631
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: One way of legitimizing the post to whop government has

632
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,280
already been mentioned in the discussion of the selection of

633
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,400
the personalities to be arrested the retention of the nominal

634
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,719
head of state where such a constitutional role exists, as

635
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,559
our own highly nominal head of state as well.

636
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 2: Just to point out again, we know about monarchies most

637
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,440
of Western Europe as parliamentary states, the monarch's head of state,

638
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,039
but they're not head of government, and the amount of

639
00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:12,440
authority varies from state to state, and you know, so

640
00:39:12,639 --> 00:39:15,039
they're relatives. So we tend to think of as monarchs

641
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:18,239
as being powerless, even though very often they have more

642
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,559
power than they exercise on a daily basis, which is

643
00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:24,079
why there could be borderline civil wars in the twentieth

644
00:39:24,119 --> 00:39:27,440
century when they actually did what they were allowed to do.

645
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,559
But keep in mind a parliamentary state that's a republic,

646
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:34,320
you will have a president as head of state along

647
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,599
with the prime minister that's head of government. But in

648
00:39:36,679 --> 00:39:40,280
most of those states, the president is a meaningless title

649
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,360
and usually it's where you put a retired politician who's

650
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,360
you know, lucid enough that he continued to receive you know,

651
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,920
state envoys and stuff and shake hands, but doesn't actually

652
00:39:51,199 --> 00:39:53,400
have to do anything and is very often not allowed

653
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,599
to do anything on a routine basis.

654
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:03,039
Speaker 1: From what I understand, the system still allows for the

655
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,880
monarchy to dissolve the parliament the parliament at any time

656
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,039
and takes over it does.

657
00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 2: And well they're required with a X number of days

658
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,559
to actually call for an election and to also put

659
00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:18,880
in a cabinet in the interim, so they don't get

660
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,840
to rule by personal rule for more than a couple

661
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,719
of weeks. But yes, they do have the authority. Was

662
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,119
it Margaret Thatcher, you know, famously everybody calls her, you know,

663
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,119
crazy because she asked Queen Elizabeth to do that. But

664
00:40:31,199 --> 00:40:33,159
keep in mind, was it ten to twelve years before

665
00:40:33,199 --> 00:40:38,440
that Elizabeth dissolved the parliament in Australia and calls for election.

666
00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:41,760
So it's something that's happened, not in mine, in your lifetime,

667
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,920
definitely in the lifetime of our parents. And again it

668
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,679
depends from monarchy to monarchy, with some of these actually

669
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,920
having huge amounts of authority in the field, with the

670
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,480
military is concerned to believe it or not.

671
00:40:57,679 --> 00:41:00,559
Speaker 1: In this way, the appearance of continuity will be made maintained,

672
00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:03,599
and with it an appearance of legitimacy. Where the head

673
00:41:03,639 --> 00:41:06,679
of state is not nominal as in presidential regimes, other

674
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,599
taxics will have to be used, the announcement of forthcoming

675
00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:13,800
elections or a referendum as a sort of expost facto legitimization,

676
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,880
or alternatively, the coup can be openly admitted as an

677
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,880
extra constitutional intervention, but one made against an unconstitutional regime,

678
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,760
one actility.

679
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 2: We have to eliminate in order to preserve democracy.

680
00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:32,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's basically what this is. I mean,

681
00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:37,679
it's we've seen this. We if we haven't seen this action,

682
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,239
we've definitely seen this rhetoric in our lifetimes.

683
00:41:40,639 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 2: I think we've seen everything except for the use of

684
00:41:42,519 --> 00:41:45,360
armed force. So I don't think but that last step

685
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,320
of a coup we've seen defacto occur in our lifetimes.

686
00:41:50,159 --> 00:41:54,039
Speaker 1: One illegality will then be represented as being the cause

687
00:41:54,039 --> 00:41:56,480
of the other. But we shall declare that whereas the

688
00:41:56,519 --> 00:42:00,239
illegality of the pre coup regime was voluntary and permanently,

689
00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:06,119
ours is necessary and temporary techniques. Such techniques will be

690
00:42:06,159 --> 00:42:09,519
of limited value in conducting the political processes required to

691
00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:12,920
create a base of active support and to secure our authority,

692
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,559
because everything will depend on the specific political environment in

693
00:42:16,599 --> 00:42:21,119
which we shall be operating. One particular problem, however, requires

694
00:42:21,119 --> 00:42:25,679
further exploration recognition by foreign powers.

695
00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:28,519
Speaker 2: Before we go too far. I was going to definitely

696
00:42:28,519 --> 00:42:31,360
emphasize the idea that of a coup expressing itself as

697
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,119
necessary and temporary. Interestingly enough, in effective coups, very often,

698
00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:37,760
that is the case. One of the things that's been

699
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:42,719
brought up about military governments. After following a military coup,

700
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,000
and a coup is effective, very often, one of the

701
00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:50,239
first things the military sets about doing transfer doesn't happen

702
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:54,199
immediately is going back to some kind of civilian rule professionally,

703
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:59,400
some kind of semi democratic constitutional rule, because the act

704
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,800
of actually running a state on a day to day

705
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,000
basis where you have to take the best in the

706
00:43:04,039 --> 00:43:05,760
brightest side of the military and put them in charge

707
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,559
of things like trash pick up and making sure that

708
00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:12,199
you know the sanitation system works is it undermines and

709
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,320
degrades the ability of that military to fight because suddenly

710
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,519
all of its leadership is more consumed with things like,

711
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,119
you know, making the mail service run instead of preparing

712
00:43:22,199 --> 00:43:23,159
for war in the future.

713
00:43:26,519 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 1: All right, so the talking about the problem of recognition

714
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,800
my foreign powers, this is almost always important, but for

715
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:40,280
the poorest countries who pays real what is that? Are

716
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,519
you familiar with that terms? Real?

717
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,519
Speaker 2: I pays real. It's a French term. I can look

718
00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:46,840
it up.

719
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,079
Speaker 1: No, it's this is let's see what we can do

720
00:43:50,119 --> 00:43:52,360
it in context. This is almost always important, but for

721
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,800
the poorest countries whose pays reel lies outside their home borders,

722
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:02,440
it will be a crucial problem. I would assume, Uh, yeah,

723
00:44:02,519 --> 00:44:03,559
let's look that up real quick.

724
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking up now. Oh the real country was Okay,

725
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,679
that was the name of a newspaper. That was Maral's

726
00:44:16,679 --> 00:44:19,360
newspaper also, but that's probably not what he's referring to.

727
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:30,519
Speaker 1: Trust real country, legal country.

728
00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 2: Conversely, oh, real country over the legal country. I would

729
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,599
have to look. I'm guessing it's the case of where

730
00:44:43,639 --> 00:44:48,039
the cultural and ethnic and national ties are. Yeah, definition

731
00:44:48,199 --> 00:44:51,119
of a you know, a community may not be co

732
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,480
terminous with the state, which is a huge issue at

733
00:44:54,559 --> 00:44:56,920
least in the Western Europe, definitely huge issue in Africa

734
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:01,559
where certain ethnic groups like Swedes and Fans cross both borders.

735
00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:06,920
So the question of you know, one of the issues

736
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,280
is you don't necessarily take control of a people when

737
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,599
you take control of their country, because you know a

738
00:45:11,679 --> 00:45:14,360
huge portion of their population lives right across the border

739
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,239
and has effectively lived there forever.

740
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, gotcha. When much of the available disposable funds

741
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:27,800
come from foreign aid, both official and via non governmental organizations,

742
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:32,239
and when foreign cadres carry out vital administration, technical, and

743
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,440
sometimes even military functions, the maintenance of good relations with

744
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,920
the particular donor country or country's concerned may well be

745
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,199
a determining factor in our political survival after the coup.

746
00:45:42,599 --> 00:45:44,000
Are they talking about Ukraine here?

747
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,159
Speaker 2: Twenty sixteen? He might be, but that would probably be

748
00:45:49,199 --> 00:45:49,679
too early.

749
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 3: Keep in mind, yeah, yeah, is living as a strategic

750
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,039
forecast are often in the service to the United States,

751
00:45:57,039 --> 00:45:59,840
So he's not necessarily going to be that blunt about

752
00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:00,960
American mistakes.

753
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:07,079
Speaker 1: Correct premature recognition by a foreign power, i e. Recognition granted,

754
00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:10,199
while the old regime still retains some degree of control

755
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,280
is becoming regarded as a form of aggression in international law.

756
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,480
Beyond that, however, recognition is usually granted even to very

757
00:46:18,519 --> 00:46:22,239
illegitimate governments after a polite interval, if there are convincing

758
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:27,519
assurances about their continuity in terms of foreign relations. These

759
00:46:27,559 --> 00:46:31,239
assurances are conveyed simply and publicly by formal announcements stating

760
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,880
that membership and alliances and groupings will be maintained, that

761
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,760
foreign agreements and obligations will be respected, and that legitimate

762
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,920
foreign interest in the country concern will not be harmed. Thus,

763
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:47,840
the leaders of Ghana's well named National Liberation Council, formed

764
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:53,800
after the overthrow of the historic independence leader Nukuma Kruma,

765
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,039
announced that Ghana would retain her membership in the Commonwealth,

766
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,199
the Organization of African Unity, and the United Nations, and

767
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:08,079
would respect all obligations assumed by in Kruma's regime. Similarly,

768
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,519
Arab post coup regimes habitually announced that they will remain

769
00:47:11,559 --> 00:47:14,320
in the Arab League, and Latin American regimes pledged to

770
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:18,280
remain members of the Organization of American States. Far more

771
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,800
important than these declarations is a considerable diplomatic activity that

772
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,719
will take place after the coup, and sometimes even before it.

773
00:47:25,559 --> 00:47:28,480
The purpose of these diplomatic exchanges will be to clarify

774
00:47:28,519 --> 00:47:32,519
the political situation, and nowadays to indicate or to dissemble

775
00:47:33,079 --> 00:47:37,280
the ideological orientation of the planners of the coup. Most

776
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,599
countries of the world follow British diplomatic doctrine in granting

777
00:47:40,679 --> 00:47:43,400
recognition to regimes on the basis of their effective control

778
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,480
of their territories, if only after a decent interval. At present,

779
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:52,400
the rapidly Islamist AKP government of Turkey opposes the overthrow

780
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,039
of Ejus Islamist government by the armed forces, fearing that

781
00:47:56,119 --> 00:47:59,119
Turkey's armed forces might do the same, but does not

782
00:47:59,199 --> 00:48:00,639
withhold recognition.

783
00:48:01,159 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: Turkey is a history of overthrowing the military overthrowing their government.

784
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: In any case, the doctrine of effective control is as

785
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,840
flexible as definitions of as definitions of control, so that

786
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,119
recognition can sometimes be flexible if the pre coup regime

787
00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:21,079
retains even a tenuous hold over some part of the

788
00:48:21,199 --> 00:48:22,320
national territory.

789
00:48:23,519 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 2: I was gonna say sorry, yeah. One of the funny

790
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,880
examples of this is the Spanish Civil War. You know,

791
00:48:31,159 --> 00:48:34,159
most of the world except the Franco regime as being

792
00:48:34,159 --> 00:48:37,599
the legitimate government of Spain within a couple of years

793
00:48:37,599 --> 00:48:42,519
of winning. But if you didn't, and the Communist Republicans

794
00:48:42,679 --> 00:48:48,079
of Spain continue to maintain recognized embassies in foreign countries

795
00:48:48,119 --> 00:48:50,880
like Mexico into I don't remember what it was. It

796
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,719
was like twenty or thirty years after that. I think

797
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,000
it was until the sixties in some places.

798
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:03,760
Speaker 1: How shocked I am that would have been Mexico. Yeah,

799
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,239
after the necessary exchanges of information and assurances, the new

800
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,559
government will usually be recognized. This will occur even if

801
00:49:10,559 --> 00:49:13,440
its illegality as an embarrassment, as in the case of

802
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,360
the United States and Latin American coups, or if it's

803
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,719
ideological orientation it's distasteful, as in the Ghanian and Indonesian

804
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:26,119
coups were for the Soviet Union at the time. Prolonged

805
00:49:26,599 --> 00:49:29,800
non recognition is a rarity. One example was the widespread

806
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:38,239
refusal to recognize Madagascar's hot authority de la Transition. I'm

807
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:43,519
assuming that's that's French, but my French pronunciation is just awful.

808
00:49:44,079 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 2: The average persons Madagascar does not speak proper French.

809
00:49:46,679 --> 00:49:53,679
Speaker 1: Anyways, which came to power and Madagascar didn't they dodge

810
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:59,679
a bullet, which time, oh yeah, in the nineteen forties

811
00:49:59,679 --> 00:50:03,920
they dodgedable which came to power by force in two

812
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,400
thousand and nine and did not organize elections till the

813
00:50:06,519 --> 00:50:10,559
end of twenty thirteen. It did, however, restore democratic role

814
00:50:10,599 --> 00:50:15,320
in twenty fourteen. Diplomatic recognition is one of the elements

815
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,800
in the general process of establishing the authority of the

816
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,519
new government. Until this is achieved, we will have to

817
00:50:20,519 --> 00:50:23,559
rely on the brittle instruments of physical coercion, and our

818
00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:27,039
position will be vulnerable to many threats, including that of

819
00:50:27,079 --> 00:50:28,280
another coup de ETAs.

820
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,119
Speaker 2: And that is it.

821
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,599
Speaker 1: And it's amazing how if a contry, if there's a

822
00:50:36,639 --> 00:50:42,400
coupdeta in one country, how it's almost like by magic,

823
00:50:42,519 --> 00:50:47,159
they would be very apt to have another one happen

824
00:50:47,639 --> 00:50:48,559
and pretty soon.

825
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:50,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again that's part of the issue. Once you

826
00:50:52,159 --> 00:50:53,960
break the seal, as it were, as soon as you

827
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,639
make it acceptable to have one, you've made it acceptable

828
00:50:56,639 --> 00:50:59,960
to have another one. So that's again that's a huge

829
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:03,440
part of why legitimizing what you're doing afterwards just such

830
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,800
a go you know, such an important part. It also

831
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,159
goes further to explaining why in an effective military coup,

832
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,119
you know, they want to get out of the governant's

833
00:51:12,199 --> 00:51:14,039
business when they can.

834
00:51:16,119 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: M Well, I appreciate you recommending this and joining me

835
00:51:21,519 --> 00:51:24,480
because I just there's a lot of books that I

836
00:51:24,519 --> 00:51:27,280
can read that I have the I have the knowledge

837
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,519
and the backgrounds of comments upon. But the historical knowledge

838
00:51:31,639 --> 00:51:36,199
that yourself and Darryl for one episode and Lafayette for

839
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:39,960
one episode brought, but you for all the other episodes,

840
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:41,880
I think it's invaluable.

841
00:51:42,559 --> 00:51:44,039
Speaker 2: Batch and Dark Enlightenment as well.

842
00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:50,280
Speaker 1: Oh a Saan batchans Dark Enlightenment. Yeah. Yeah, through that episode,

843
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,280
I had a lot of people reach out wanting to

844
00:51:54,039 --> 00:51:56,960
recognizing what was happening and wanted to say hi, just

845
00:51:57,519 --> 00:52:00,800
and that's cool say that you know they appreciate you,

846
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,639
appreciate you, each one of you individually.

847
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate it. And like I said in the beginning,

848
00:52:06,079 --> 00:52:08,519
I mean, part of it's just the the fact is

849
00:52:08,519 --> 00:52:12,239
it disabled veteran that they kept paying for college so

850
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,000
I kept going, especially since very often they paid me

851
00:52:15,039 --> 00:52:17,119
more money and my day, you know, as a stipend

852
00:52:17,159 --> 00:52:19,480
than what I would make my daily pay. So I'm

853
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,880
glad somebody is getting some value out of my higher education.

854
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,519
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I appreciate it, and I'll have you

855
00:52:27,559 --> 00:52:29,679
back on real soon to do this again. Sounds good

856
00:52:29,639 --> 00:52:31,639
to have you back on soon. Have you back on

857
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,480
soon to do something other than a reading, Let's talk

858
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,519
about Yeah, let's have you back on and talk about

859
00:52:36,559 --> 00:52:38,280
some some real stuff.

860
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,039
Speaker 2: Yeah. I probably have to talk to Thomas and see

861
00:52:40,039 --> 00:52:42,039
how much we can go down rabbit holes at some point.

862
00:52:44,679 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 1: All right, John, appreciate it, Thank you anytime, Bro,