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Speaker 1: Ask not what your country can do for you, ask

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what you can do for your country.

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Speaker 2: Mister Gorbachew, tear down this wall.

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Speaker 3: It's the Ricochet Podcast with Stephen Hayward and myself James Lotlax.

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Today we talked to Noah Rothman about things domestic and

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cultural to international and military everything. So let's ever So

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it's a podcast.

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Speaker 4: I went on a left leaning podcast and they asked

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me about my son and I said, he was you know,

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he's he's a football player and he wants to be

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a policeman. And their joke was about my fifteen year

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old son, Oh, how does he feel about minorities? Like

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the idea that he wants to be a policeman, therefore

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he's racist? And I thought to myself, this.

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Speaker 2: Is why you so losing elections.

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Speaker 3: Welcome everybody, This is the Ricochet Podcast, number seven hundred

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and forty three. Why don't you you go to ricochet

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dot com right now sign up to be part of

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the the most stimulating conversations and community on the weapon.

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We wouldn't say it if we couldn't back it up.

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I'm James Ladox, Minneapolis, Minnesota, where it's a beautiful end

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of May day, Stephen Hayward is, well, what are you

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in a cabin Alaska or something like that. I'm looking

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at you.

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Speaker 1: I am in the I'm in the highlands of Iceland,

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which I've decided, James, is the Minnesota of waterfalls.

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Speaker 2: They have a waterfall every.

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Speaker 1: Fifty feet that they do in Minnesota has a lake right,

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and it's quite amazing.

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Speaker 3: We're the amazing rainbows in the air as the mist

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hits the sun. And of course what I loved about

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it you can go to the top of it and

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look down. There weren't any handrails on the steps, the stairs.

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It's just we don't have the ada here. You know,

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you can't figure it out. Don't fall, That's basically, it

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don't fall. So you're finding Iceland to be as fascinating

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as people said, even though the streets are filled with

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unpronounceable words you cannot begin to sound out. Oh yes, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I thought Welsh was a difficult language and challenging on

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purpose for foreigners. Every place I go to, I just

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say I'm in far Fordnugan, because I'm farm from anywhere,

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and it's I can't pronounce anything, and yeah, it's impossible.

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Speaker 3: So it's mumble, Yeah, the extraordinary country. But that's another podcast,

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and I hope they had that right sometime soon, maybe

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when Charles C. W. Cook is not joining us this time.

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He's a bit under the weather. I don't know what

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the weather is like in Florida, but apparently he's suffering

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from it, which leaves us to discuss this. Who knew, Stephen?

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Who knew there's a Court of International Trade?

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Speaker 1: I did not, And I thought I knew most of

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these specialized federal courts, like the Court of Federal Right, Yeah,

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the Court of Federal Claims, a few other obscure ones.

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I do know a little bit about that.

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Speaker 3: Said, let us, of course be instant experts on the fact.

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So the Court of International Trade has struck down the tariffs,

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Yeah for now, And I think the judge stated for

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a couple of weeks or something like that. This is

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the usual ya judicial activism from some nay judicial activity injunctivitis, say,

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some judge shopping what right have they to do? The

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executive No, there was a nineteen sixty two congressional act

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that gave him the power, etc. Can you make heads

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or tails out of this? Where we are now and

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whether or not you think it's going to stick.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think it's not going to stick, and

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I think it in an odd way, it makes it

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more likely that Trump's tariff power may survive what otherwise

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would have been a more formidable legal challenge in regular

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district court. So this is one of these specialized courts

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set up by Congress to handle things that the judiciary

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doesn't want to have clogging their regular docket. So, as

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I understand this court, it exists for people to bring

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appeals that they're not charged the correct tariff rate on

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you know, whether something is improperly classified as this kind

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of product versus that kind of product. And so if

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you can get your let's take an example, an old

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Teddy ruxpan doll might have had something like a ten

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percent tariff. It's been important from somewhere, but if you

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claim it's an educational tool, then it would have maybe

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a five percent tariff. So to hear cases like that,

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this is kind of like people's court stuff, right with

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Judge Wantner.

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Speaker 3: And so for this court to.

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Speaker 1: Assert its jurisdiction and take on this huge question of

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Trump's worldwide tariff strategy seems to me politically suicidal for

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the court, and it's very badly reasoned. I think I've

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skimmed through it quickly. I haven't mastered it. But there

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are legitimate questions about whether Congress can delegate the sweeping

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tarff powder power that Trumps exercised on some Emergency Economic

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Powers Act from the seventies. And there are other suits

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filed by formidable conservatives like Phil Hamburger at Columbia in

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district court. And this court completely ignores some of the

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classic constitutional arguments that could be brought to bear against

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Trump's power, and instead and one thing, and then I'll

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shut up. I could go on too long about this

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too easily.

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Speaker 3: Is they said?

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Speaker 1: Well, Trump has justified these tariffs, saying it's needed to

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fight the national emergency of fentanyl and the drug overdoses

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and whatnot. But tariffs are a terrible tool for doing that. Well,

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you know what, if the president has given the power

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to declare a national emergency, the means should be beyond

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the scrutiny of an obscure court that you've never heard of,

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with judges who are even Article three judges with lifetime tenure,

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and they completely skipped making any constitutional arguments. And it's

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mind bogglingly bad. And I think an almost any federal

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court that here's the appeal of this decision, is going

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to overturn it in a second, and Trump's going to

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claim victory, and it's going to make it I think

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harder to assail his power in a regular lawsuit.

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Speaker 3: Maybe not Judge Wapner, but Judge Judy, don't EPA on

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my leg and tell me it's raining. The EPA being

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the International Emergency Powers Act of nineteen seventy seven. We

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talked about that, and I agree with you. I mean,

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the emergency portion of this has always seemed to me

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to be a little bit suspect. Gathering up these powers

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by claiming we have an emergency, and emergency seems you

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seem to want to reserve that word for actual things

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that come out of nowhere quickly and spiraled into very

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bad problems. It must be faced immediately, right, and fentanyl

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wall bad does not seem to be a justifiable rationale

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for that. Of course, other people can make the arguments,

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and they happen. What do I know, But you're right.

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I mean to say that tariffs are a bad way

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of doing this. It's well that that's a subjective question.

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That's that's not an objective finding. That's that's saying, well,

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we really don't who knows if you've composed one thousand

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percent tariff in China in Mexico unless they instantly went

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in and blew up all their fentanyl factories might get

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their attention. I don't know that seems to be the reasoning.

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But yeah, I think you're correct, and it'll probably be

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struck down. And if nothing else, we will have all

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learned that there is a Court of International Trade, which

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which which sounds like one of those Brussels organizations that

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make you roll right right, you roll your eyes and say, well,

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you know how many? You know how many troops? Is

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the pope? It's one of those. But well, apparently this.

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Speaker 1: Is this is there are some anti scenes to this,

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to go back over one hundred years. Uh, here's a

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trivia point that you may know. When Franklin Roosevelt declared

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the bank closed all the banks in the country, state

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and federal alike in his first weekend office in nineteen

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thirty three, he invoked something called the Trading with the

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Enemy Act from nineteen seventeen, pasted during World War One.

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Speaker 3: Well, who's the enemy in nineteen thirty three.

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Speaker 1: I was absurd and no one thought to file a

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lawsuit then, but it was so it's very similar now.

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In other words, what we're seeing now is not that unusual.

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And by the way, I've said this before here. I

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keep telling liberals, this is the presidency. You've always wanted

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strong executive power to do all these good things. You know, Wilson, Franklin, Roosevelt,

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John F. Kennedy. They always use these powers. And DIAC

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is mad because you don't like what Trump is using

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them for. But maybe you want to get back to

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an old thing called the constitution.

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Speaker 3: As we keep saying. Yes, well, you know Ben in

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a phone and bold, persistent experimentation. It seems to me

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that's what we've been seeing. Yeah, bank Holiday, there's something

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of a euthanism there. Oh, I'm so giddy for the

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upcoming bank holiday. What do you hope you find under

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the safe tomorrow when it's a bank hall, a bank

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closure is what it is, and dire straits because of it.

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Oh you Govald? All right, there's that. And speaking of

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money that we found in banks and also in bills,

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we have one that is both big and or beautiful

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or not. I don't know how a got called the BBB,

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which sounds like some sort of thing you'd find in

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a chat room where people are seeking out particular pleasures.

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But what about this here? I keep hearing the same

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thing is that when I was talking to somebody about

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this the other day, they said, well, there's all these

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medicare cuts, so well they're spread out over ten years. Yeah,

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but it's going to it's going to hurt the communities

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because they're not going to be able to be able

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to pay for you know, well, for example, emergency rooms

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are going to hit because they're going to be having

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illegals coming in who have no means to pay. And

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I said, well, you know, the idea is is that

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there won't be them, the illegals, because they will have

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been dispensed with, and so you will have the savings

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from that. And so all of this seems like just

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conjecture about something that I don't know. The cuts are

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going to lead to death. We know specifically, I've already

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been hearing all these dire things that are that are

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meant to say, But are they really cuts? Are we

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really talking about a slowing of the rate of growth

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as usual? Yes, if we were to go back to

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the Medicare budget of five years ago, would that mean

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a mass die off? How bad is the is the

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Medicare cut? Because we all know, I mean we know

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from Mitt Romney wanted to take Gramm and put in

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a wheelchair pusher off a cliff. We all know that

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the point of this is to kill people. That is,

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you know, the Republican idea for continued electoral strategy, to

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tell the electorate that they want as many of them

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dead as possible. So how is this going to play

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on it? Do you think? Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean net neutrality failed to kill millions, as we

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were told of what happened, So I guess we have

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to cut Medicare instead. Of course, James, it's it's a

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reduction of future rate of growth. I think, well, first

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of all, one of my rules of a big congressional

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legislation is I don't really start paying close attention until

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the Senate's had its say. And the Senate here is

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going to make a lot of changes, and so to

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read the builds exist now is I think mostly a

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waste of effort unless you have to write a major

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feature about it. But yeah, so Medica, it's just one

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part of it. We're controlling the rate of growth. And

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I think what ought to be said is two things.

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One is, as a general matter, Democrats quite a while ago,

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going back at least the financial crisis of two thousand

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and eight, so all programs like social security, disability, medicare

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as proxies for wealth transfers for redistribution of wealth.

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Speaker 3: They want.

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Speaker 1: That's why they want to expand eligibility to as many

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people as possible, including illegal aliens, and broad the things

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covered and so forth. And then the second thing is

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I think what's going to happen here is you may

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see some Washington monument strategy. That's what you really described

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is you know what, we're going to have to cut

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emergency rooms instead of limiting eligibility, which some states are

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starting to do, like California. I think I meant in

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the previous week that Governor Newsom has said illegal aliens

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currently getting medicator are going to have to start doing

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one hundred dollars a month copey or something like that,

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and no new enrollments. And that's even before the big

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beautiful bill passes. But in any case, this is all phony.

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It's the same drill we've seen since the Reagan years.

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At least you're cutting something when the budget's actually going

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to grow by You know what that means is a

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cut is when the projected rate of increase the liberals

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want doesn't happen. So they want ten billion and they

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only get five billion, and that's a cut a five

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billion more. Right, So this is an old game, and

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I got to think that, you know, like certain other

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aspects of liberal rhetoric, that it's not going to work anymore.

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Speaker 3: But we'll see. They're also concerns. Apparently Tom Tillis has

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mentioned something like this that ought to be a name

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of a country Western singer known for his yes man humor.

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I'm sorry. Tom till has warned about the the the

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abrupt and sudden termination of renewable energy incentives for a

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couple of reasons. One because well, renewable energy is the

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only think it's going to keep the planet from turning

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into a burnt out cinder going around the sun. And two,

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I said that we're not going to be able to

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meet the rest of the demand for petroleum products because

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the investors are still skittish after Keystone, Keystone being canceled

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by Biden because he too wanted to save the Earth,

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and the Green New Deal didn't allow for that nasty,

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sinful icher to flow through the pipes of America. So

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I'm not so sure about that. It seems to me

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as if we've got a pretty pro oil pro pipeline

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guy in there now, And it does make you think

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if they couldn't build one of these things in three years,

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then something is perhaps awry with our initiative, or perhaps

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we are too burdened, dare I say by regulations that

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keep these things from happening swiftly? I mean Hoover dam boom, blink,

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it's up, Empire State Building. It was just a hole

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in the ground yesterday. Look at it sixty stories now.

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I mean we used to be able to do things

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with dispatch. So I'm not exactly. I'm completely pleased that

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the long grift that has been the renewable energy incentives

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maybe coming to an end, because I frankly don't want

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to depend on the wind in the sun. I want

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to be able to depend on us, which that goes

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on because the currency is well balanced and powered by plentiful, clean,

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modern progressive nuclear energy.

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I wish tell us we're less

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confused about these things. If we gank all of the

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green energy subsidies, you'll still be able to build wind

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and solar power if you want to. You'll just have

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to pay for it yourself. That's very different from what

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happened with the Keystone Pipeline. I thought it was one

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of the most shocking things a president has ever done

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when Biden on day one shut down the Keystone pipeline.

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That was not a subsidized project. It did not need

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federal funds or tax breaks.

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Speaker 3: It was a.

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Speaker 1: Privately funded project with what five thousand people, many of

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them Uguonize, working on it. And I think it's the

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first time a president has ever revoked a permit for

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a project in progress. It's one thing to block a

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permit from happening in the first place, but to actually

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stop something being built by the private sector, I don't

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think has ever happened before. And if Tillis had been

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threatening to impeach the president for that, I would now

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maybe listen to him a little bit more attentively. I

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have to say the Biden people were very clever with

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their what was a build Back No Inflation Reduction Act,

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which even Biden admitted it was just a green subsidy.

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They spread the money around lavishly to Red States on purpose,

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hoping that as years. To comment, it was, you know,

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these things were projected to last for years, not just

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for Biden's term. Especially some of the tax credits are

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open ended entirely, and I think they thought, ah, if

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we lavish enough money to the Red States, that will

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guarantee they have political supports that they'll survive a change

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in administration. And lo and behold, Tillis is right on

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the spot, offering to prove the Biden administration and the

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Democrats right. And so I think you should go pound

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sand into solar panels on the beach in North Carolina

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and let the rest of us get back to having

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real energy.

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Speaker 3: As you say, Yes, there's debates up here in Minnesota

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as to whether to mine in an area known as

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the near the Boundary waters, and people are concerned about

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run off and pollution, and wells they should. But the

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thing is is that they do need an awful lot

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of copper for those big, wonderful, beautiful windmills. They need

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a lot of virgin copper, and that means means you

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have to dig into it with industrial equipment that dare

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I say, might be powered by fossil fuels. So they

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want it always. They want the planes to be dotted

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with these dark, satanic machines. But at the same time

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they don't want anybody to actually get the copper out

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of the ground to make them do it. But somehow

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it will happen. And then you just look and say, look,

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we have fuel, we have diesel, we've got gas, we've

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got nuclear. It works. Nope, can't have it. Another thing

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that is in the bill that will probably be a

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source of contention is that the government is decided it

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is no longer going to use Medicaid to fund facial

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feminization procedures exactly for people who have decided that they

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are of a different gender. Now, when the cuts are

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to gender affirming care, I don't know if that actually

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goes towards the secondary or tertiary cosmetic qualities. But again

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it's like you said, with the pipeline, it's you're still

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free to do it, you just you just have to

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pay for it. And the idea that the taxpayer should

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be obligated to do this is it has, as it's

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predicates a whole series of ideas which themselves I don't

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care how much they say are not empirically scientifically valid.

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I mean, they just aren't. I mean, it's it's it's

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I'm sorry. You can talk about brain chemistry and gender

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theory and all the rest of it, but I don't

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see why that is necessary for the taxpayer to fund

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these things. Second thing that I found that was interesting

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in discussion about the bills that there's a tenure ban

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on state laws regarding the regulation of AI and AH.

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I'm not sure how I feel about this because I'm

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I'm hesitant to allow AI to be crimped by governments

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that don't know anything about it or acting out of

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fear or ignorance. But at the same time, I'm terribly

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terribly concerned about what AI is going to do, and

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not in some luddite, stupid it's going to take the

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jerb stuff. I'm deeply troubled about the effect that it's

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going to have. I had a situation the other day

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where I was where I asked Google something. I was

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researching something, and it came up with because you no

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longer get at the top of the page, you ad

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your ad and then your link to the story, you

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get an AI summary. Google has decided We're going to

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step in and use our AI to give you the

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answer to the question that you just did. And the

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answer was wrong. It was very wrong, and it was

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wrong in such a way that anybody who came across

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the same thing in the situation that I did would

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have emptied their bowels and their bladders simultaneously at realizing

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that if this was true, things were very bad for

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you at this instance. And I'll be able to talk

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about this perhaps in a couple of weeks. So I

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don't trust state solons to regulate it necessarily with the

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brilliance that they bring to other members of other issues.

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But at the same time, where is this ban on

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a ban on regulation of AI coming from.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it does concern me too. So by the way,

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I've had the same reaction to those Google summaries. It

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puts me in the mind of the late famous Caltech

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physicist Richard Feynman, who one time saw something like that

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and he said, that isn't right. Why that isn't even wrong?

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I've seen that some of the bizarre results from those

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Google things.

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Speaker 3: Look.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very familiar argument that industries made

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for decades about various regulatory schemes you'd rather have instead

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of state by state regulation. For example, suppose some states said,

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I'm sorry, Coca Cola can only be sold in ten

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ounce cans, that Coca Cola has to make a different

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can for that state, and the automakers and chemical companies

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they've always wanted to have uniform federal regulation. It's better

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to have one size fits all, or you just have

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chaos commercially. I get all that, and you don't want

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states also erecting airsat's trade barriers against out of state

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companies and so forth. On the other hand, I do

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think I'm very you know, just this stuff makes me nervous,

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and I think state legislators, as bad as they often are,

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should not be told that, no, I'm sorry, you can't

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pass a regulation, say, protecting your citizens privacy. I'm very

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concerned about how AI may be used to invade your

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privacy or sell your data, manipulate your data, and so forth.

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And if the federal government is not going to do it,

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I think it's probably maybe not wise to say states

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can't get into looking at that also, but I don't know,

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I don't understand all this stuff. I have to confess,

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But it does worry me.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, we'll have a white paper, We'll have congressional here,

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We'll have a blue coat, will have a blue ribbon committee.

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We have all of these things, and by the time

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they're done with it, everything that they come up with

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will be incredibly outdated because the AI has become exponentially

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smarter by a factor of thirty seven while they've been

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flapping their gums. So yeah, I don't know. I mean,

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what is the state going to do? You can VPN

404
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around that, what is the state going to say about,

405
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you know, misinformation? I don't want them to be the

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ones who tell me what he is and is not.

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All of that stuff. I get it, but we're going

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to end up not regulating it, and we're going because

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there's perhaps no way to do so effectively, and then

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we're going to end up with some societal consequences from it.

411
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Reading a study today was talking about the blood bath

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of mid color of mid level jobs. It's going to

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go away, and it's entirely possible a lot of them

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will be automated by AI if it gets infallible or

415
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at least fallible to them like human beings. But as

416
00:20:50,839 --> 00:20:54,480
somebody pointed, out. When computerization was supposed to eliminate fast

417
00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:57,119
swaths of jobs, what people did basically was come up

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00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:02,599
with other jobs, email jobs and PowerPoint jobs and managerial

419
00:21:02,599 --> 00:21:08,200
puffery jobs, and somehow, somehow the economy managed to stagger on. Well,

420
00:21:08,279 --> 00:21:10,400
you may be staggering on through your day, my friend,

421
00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:11,960
but the point of it is is that at the

422
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end of it waits for you what home and what

423
00:21:14,559 --> 00:21:17,240
should home be? Home should be a sanctuary. And that's

424
00:21:17,279 --> 00:21:19,279
why Cozy Earth's goal is to help you turn your

425
00:21:19,319 --> 00:21:22,440
home into a sanctuary, a place where I'm tempted to

426
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,160
do this, like you know in the old Hunchback of

427
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,759
Notre Dame movie, a place where you can escape the suary,

428
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,839
remember you know, and he also was played He also

429
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,960
played Claudius in a movie that was never made, and

430
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,160
I would have loved to have seen it. Claudius had

431
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,319
a sanctuary, of course, the Romans lived. Well, you're not

432
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,480
a Roman, but you can live just as good as

433
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Caesar used to. If you want a place to escape

434
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the world's demands and unwind. Because life gets hectic and

435
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finding comfort and calm is essential. We need time for

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relaxation and recharging and soaking in that sense of peace.

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With Cozy Earth, you can create a space that feels

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like a personal retreat where comfort and serenity come together naturally. Now,

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if Charlie, we're here, well, actually Charlie right now being

440
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under the weather, the weather of Florida, he's always under,

441
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We're always technically under. The one is probably recuperating on

442
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Cozy Earth sheets, which his wife got and he's been

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446
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447
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serenity that his comforts or Cozy Earth sheets are bringing him.

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that's how much Comes of the Earth believes in them.

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Sanctuary awaits at Cozy Earth, and we thank them for

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sponsoring this the Ricochet podcast. Now we bring back to

468
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the podcast. Noah Rothman, Senior writer at National Review. I've

469
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heard of them, and the author of the Rise of

470
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the New Puritans, fighting back against Progressives, war on fun

471
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and unjust social justice, and the unmaking of America get

472
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into this in a bit here. I don't want to

473
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get to to Russia, but I also want to talk

474
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,799
about fighting back against the progressives war on fun. We

475
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,759
just had first of all, welcome though, thanks, thanks for

476
00:24:02,759 --> 00:24:05,680
coming back right pleasure, thanks for having me. We just

477
00:24:05,759 --> 00:24:09,279
had the DNC come out, not through Hogg, who of

478
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,599
course is their manliest of spokesman, the most large lumberjackie

479
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,319
testosterone field guy, but that they have to appeal to

480
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,480
young men's scratching their head and saying, how are we

481
00:24:19,559 --> 00:24:24,200
going to exactly do this? Like anthropologists studying some hominids

482
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,440
in the wild, do they have a chance of this?

483
00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:29,920
Because so much of the progressive agenda now seems to

484
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,880
be based on a series of assumptions about society and

485
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:34,920
men that a lot of young men have just figured

486
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,640
out and tuned them out for good.

487
00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they've earned that.

488
00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 5: I don't want to say never, because that just implies

489
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,880
a failure of imagination on my part. The political earth

490
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,480
can shift under your feet pretty rapidly, so never is

491
00:24:50,519 --> 00:24:53,400
a long time that being said. You know, there's a

492
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,839
quote that came across the transom yesterday in Jake Tapper's

493
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:02,799
media tour in which he described Vibed encountering progressives on

494
00:25:02,839 --> 00:25:06,240
a progressive podcast that caters to progressive audiences and he

495
00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:08,839
was talking about his son and how his son is

496
00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:10,319
a football player and wants to grow up to be

497
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:15,920
a cop. And the progressives responded to that by mocking

498
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,359
his son, implying that he harbored racially hostile animus in

499
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,319
his heart, because why else we didn't want to be

500
00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:28,200
a la enforcement officer. And obviously the jingoism and toxic

501
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,480
male fantasies that contribute to anybody who would want to

502
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,839
go into professional athletics are equally suspect. It is the

503
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,400
sort of thing that contributes to the impression that democrats

504
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,079
have cultivated for themselves that they're just genuinely hostile to

505
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:48,000
expressions of traditional masculinity in whatever forms they take. One

506
00:25:48,039 --> 00:25:51,920
of the chapters in that book, Rise of the New Puritans,

507
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,839
in chapter five and six, are devoted to hobbies, sex

508
00:25:57,039 --> 00:26:01,920
and booze, And over the course of those chapters you see,

509
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,000
and this is part of the Great Wokenings. So perhaps

510
00:26:04,079 --> 00:26:07,319
it's on the decline, but it's not going yet. You

511
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,599
see throughout the course of those chapters a concerted effort

512
00:26:10,839 --> 00:26:15,599
among progressive activists to establish their status within their hierarchy

513
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:23,920
by identifying racial hostility and seemingly innocuous, fair, jogging, running, gardening,

514
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,119
interior decorating, you know, just about every hobby that you

515
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,319
can imagine, to say nothing of all the masculine you know,

516
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,119
traditionally masculine things like working on cars, for example, and

517
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,519
fishing and hunting and that sort of thing. All of

518
00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:48,160
them are pervaded with hostility, anti social, antisocial beliefs. And

519
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,440
when it comes to sex and booze, you get this

520
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:55,079
something akin to resembling to a degree that I found

521
00:26:55,079 --> 00:26:58,799
hard to ignore the Temperance movement, and the temperance movement

522
00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:03,519
was a an outgrowth of suffragism. It was a women

523
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,400
led movement. Indeed, many of the activists whose rhetoric has

524
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,839
been resurrected in the first way of movement of feminism

525
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,559
at the turn of the twentieth century described alcohol as

526
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,839
they describe it today. It makes and what it does

527
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,720
to men, It makes men into brutes, It makes men

528
00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:22,599
into bad providers, it makes men into philanderers. All this

529
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,279
language you hear expressed, some of it directly from the

530
00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:31,079
Temperance Movement and the subsequent movements that arose from it,

531
00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:34,920
including prohibition. All of this stuff is hostile to men.

532
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,839
It is hostile to liberty as opposed to libertinism, although

533
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,880
it's very hostile to that as well. And it's an

534
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,880
expression of a sort of mistrust of the social compact

535
00:27:47,319 --> 00:27:51,599
that has arisen as a result of male participation in

536
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,599
the political process that is just incompatible with the current

537
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,640
social compact. It's the sort of thing that I don't

538
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,480
think they can move forward and be politically viable prize

539
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,200
unless they slough off a lot of this really hyper

540
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,599
activist jargon that is that emerged from the campuses in

541
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,880
twenty twenty. It needs to be relegated back to them

542
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,440
where it can be hopefully suffocated for all time. But

543
00:28:13,519 --> 00:28:16,920
for now it just needs to be quarantined back in

544
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,759
these academic removes or tumbler.

545
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, they right coded everything, because you would make your

546
00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:25,319
bones by finding something new to be that was right coded.

547
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,440
Working out, for example, was for a while there.

548
00:28:28,799 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 5: Was the picture of Paul Ryan, tell me how masculine

549
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,319
that activity really is?

550
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,079
Speaker 3: Right and yeah, so again the pendulum perhaps will swing,

551
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,039
but that sort of uh manly viga as they had

552
00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:48,000
with the Kennedy's would appall them now and everybody gets

553
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,039
more points for finding something new that is right coded

554
00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:53,279
and generally masculine because boo his ick. All right, so

555
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,000
we got that, Stephen, you wanted to add or go

556
00:28:56,079 --> 00:28:56,519
on another.

557
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,759
Speaker 1: I mean, I do want to before we get onto

558
00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:02,640
some turn headlines and things of the last ten days

559
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,240
or so, I do want to say no.

560
00:29:04,519 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 3: First of all, I've.

561
00:29:05,079 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: Told you before you're my favorite cranky person. And but

562
00:29:08,039 --> 00:29:09,559
what I want to say the reason I say that

563
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,720
or that prefaces I think you deserve a victory lap

564
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,119
for your two books. I mean, you were reporting on

565
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,519
the front lines about how crazy things were going, and

566
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,240
I mean, we haven't won, but there's a fight of

567
00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:24,640
foot and it's crumbling in ways that I think we

568
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,960
all thought should happen but couldn't believe that it wasn't happening.

569
00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:29,839
Speaker 3: It took it took a while.

570
00:29:30,599 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: And I'm actually I can make a case for pessimism

571
00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:37,359
or crankiness myself that if it goes back to college campuses,

572
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,480
it will go on go to ground again and re

573
00:29:39,559 --> 00:29:42,119
emerge in new forms of new vocabulary in five to

574
00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:44,279
ten years and we'll be back in this mess again.

575
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

576
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: But first of all, I mean you just really great

577
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,119
writing and all that, and I you know, absolute you

578
00:29:50,119 --> 00:29:50,559
for all that.

579
00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:53,279
Speaker 3: Let me ask about the shooting.

580
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,319
Speaker 1: In DC, which is now, you know what ten days

581
00:29:55,319 --> 00:29:56,240
ago or whatever it was.

582
00:29:58,039 --> 00:29:58,599
Speaker 3: I don't know.

583
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously oct Over seven was a real turning

584
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,920
point moment for a whole lot of things, not just Israel,

585
00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:09,720
not just our college campuses, but making us realize that

586
00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:14,039
anti Semitism is a lot more widespread and accepted promoted.

587
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,319
It shocked me, I have to say. And then I

588
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:24,119
wonder if these shootings are also because of how I

589
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,079
keep using the word shocking again. But that was such

590
00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:31,039
an outrageous crime, and you know, the person looks to

591
00:30:31,079 --> 00:30:34,839
be a typical product of our universities, where people marinate

592
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,839
in these hateful ideologies and we're breeding violence like we

593
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,079
did on the universities in the late sixties. I don't

594
00:30:42,079 --> 00:30:44,519
know what I haven't I should have. Probably you've probably

595
00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:46,920
written something on it that I've missed. But you think

596
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,839
this is also going to be a turning point or

597
00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:51,039
an inflection point in where this is going.

598
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: I don't, I wish I did.

599
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,079
Speaker 5: I suspect we're going to need a few more inflection points,

600
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,039
which is to say, horrible violence in order for us

601
00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:04,640
to really fully grapple with what we're attempting to reckon

602
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,519
with here. There was no reckoning during the Biden years

603
00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:14,759
when this violence erupted, and there's been an effort on

604
00:31:14,799 --> 00:31:19,160
the part of DSA affiliates, in PARTICULARS one DSA splinter group,

605
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,319
which is unashamedly Maoist. So there's a lot of if

606
00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:24,960
you go to the website, there's a lot of misconceptions

607
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,079
about Maoism out there, and we're going to dispel them

608
00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:27,279
for you.

609
00:31:29,319 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: And the reason why there was no.

610
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 5: Real reckoning with what we were looking at there is

611
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:38,920
because it indicts leftism in a way that leftists are

612
00:31:39,319 --> 00:31:41,680
are unlikely to want to reckon with.

613
00:31:42,759 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: Talk about crank here we go.

614
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,359
Speaker 5: This all goes back in some form or fashion to

615
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,759
the Soviet Union, as things do when it comes to

616
00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:56,839
just about everything I write. My colleague Dominic Pino smartly

617
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,839
observed on the Editor's Podcast couple of episodes ago that

618
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,680
anti Semitism became a feature of Soviet propaganda, in particular

619
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,960
anti Zionism. Zionology was a focus of study inside the

620
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,640
Soviet Union, and it became something that the Soviets began

621
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,480
to export. It was an ideological export after World War II,

622
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,839
in the end of the Stalin years, and in particular

623
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,440
during the breshn Nev years, when Israel stopped being this

624
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:32,720
archipelago of communal kibbutsim and started being somehow a tool

625
00:32:32,839 --> 00:32:35,960
of the West and also something that was controlling the West,

626
00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:41,559
and that was evolved in Soviet rhetoric into Zionism as

627
00:32:41,599 --> 00:32:46,000
a species of bourgeois nationalism, which was a foreign policy

628
00:32:46,039 --> 00:32:49,680
project that the Soviets emphasized, in particular after nineteen sixty

629
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,039
seven and nineteen seventy three, when Israel wiped the floor

630
00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:54,559
with a variety of Soviet client states in the Middle East.

631
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,359
It was a necessary project from the perspective of the Kremlin.

632
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:05,079
Fast forward, we still have the vestiges of this effort

633
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,119
to blend Soviet style Marxist Leninism with anti Zionism, and

634
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,200
we see it in the Rhetorican behavior and activities of

635
00:33:13,319 --> 00:33:17,359
far left nationalists, in particular the Democratic Socialists of America

636
00:33:17,359 --> 00:33:20,559
and this splinter group that came out and said, you know,

637
00:33:20,599 --> 00:33:22,680
we need more people like this guy to shoot and

638
00:33:22,759 --> 00:33:25,319
kill Zionists because that's the only way we're going to advance.

639
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,880
I don't think the DSA nationally would take ownership of

640
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,559
that proposition, but they certainly did after October seventh, by

641
00:33:31,559 --> 00:33:36,279
which I mean October eighth, took to the streets, took

642
00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:38,559
to the streets and to attack Israel for inviting this

643
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,920
violence upon itself and to preempt any particular, any possible

644
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,279
retribution that Israel would meet out against Hamas. And it

645
00:33:46,359 --> 00:33:50,640
took direct influence from these attacks. One of the rallies

646
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,960
was called Flood Brooklyn for Gaza, which took direct inspiration

647
00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:57,240
from the Allosa flood, which is the name that Hamas

648
00:33:57,319 --> 00:34:01,000
gave to the October seventh massacre. You can see in

649
00:34:01,039 --> 00:34:03,759
the science there is only one solution into fought a

650
00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:06,960
revolution by any means necessary. All that sort of thing

651
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:10,159
is radicalizing if you take it seriously, and there's going

652
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,760
to be some people who do. There's in a country

653
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,480
of three hundred and thirty million people. There are going

654
00:34:14,519 --> 00:34:16,199
to be some cranks out there who think you're being

655
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,639
serious and literal and will act on these more what

656
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,599
are frankly being retailed to them as moral imperatives of

657
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:26,719
the utmost importance. So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that

658
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,079
we see some really far left socialist types. Merry wed

659
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:36,679
anti Semitic anti Sionism and the Marxian fervor, because that

660
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,000
has been something that was a concerted project for a

661
00:34:40,039 --> 00:34:43,679
half century and we're just dealing with the vestigial elements

662
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:43,880
of it.

663
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:45,159
Speaker 3: Yeah.

664
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: So you know, anyone who pays attention to Middle Eastern

665
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,159
studies programs at universities, as I know you do, and

666
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,239
I try to knows that they're just cesspools. And I

667
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,000
have thought and seminaries of intolerance. We say that generally

668
00:34:59,039 --> 00:35:02,039
about universities, but especially those departments. And I do know

669
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:04,119
that the Columbia has cash here to a couple of people,

670
00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,800
but I would think that more university leaders, leaders, presidents,

671
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,840
trustees would say, you know, this is the occasion when

672
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,440
we can clean house and actually close down some of

673
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,960
these departments completely. What really ought to happen, right, And

674
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,880
I don't see much of that. And that say more

675
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,280
about that if you want. But I want to connect

676
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,719
it to the Harvard question, which is, I'll put it

677
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,639
this way. Sure, I understand the arguments from Stephen Pinker

678
00:35:28,679 --> 00:35:33,440
and others that Trump is taking out after Harvard with

679
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,079
a meat axe, and you know, you may actually harm

680
00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:38,679
some reasonable medical research and this and that and the

681
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,920
other thing, all coaching arguments. On the other hand, trying

682
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,159
to conjole universities for the last what thirty forty years

683
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,360
hasn't gotten very far, hasn't achieved very much. And I've

684
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:51,639
come to the point where I think, you know, the

685
00:35:51,679 --> 00:35:53,840
only thing that's going to make these universities change is

686
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,199
a two by four to the head, which is what

687
00:35:56,199 --> 00:35:59,000
Trump is certainly delivering to Harvard, and by implication, he's

688
00:35:59,039 --> 00:36:02,840
ready to do it to other universities too. How do

689
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,000
you feel about all that? Is that a reasonable way

690
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,599
of thinking about it? Or you have some reservations?

691
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: It's reasonable.

692
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,159
Speaker 5: I have more reservations than you about, for example, the

693
00:36:12,159 --> 00:36:13,000
war on Harvard.

694
00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: I don't think the public.

695
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,519
Speaker 5: I think the public is very mistrustful of these institutions,

696
00:36:18,559 --> 00:36:20,559
and I think they would welcome efforts to reform and

697
00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:23,639
even coerce and cajole them by the administration. I don't

698
00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:25,400
think they look fondly on a two by four. I

699
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,719
think they see that as arbitrary. I think they don't

700
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,960
believe that the president should be wielding two by fours

701
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,320
against American private institutions, even if they take taxpayer funds.

702
00:36:33,639 --> 00:36:36,840
With the proper conception on their part. Frankly, that any

703
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,199
instrument that you forge in the culture war, you should

704
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,079
expect to be taken by your adversaries and wielded against you.

705
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:44,880
They don't want to be on the receiving end of

706
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,760
that sort of thing. Nor do I, Nor do I

707
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,079
want conservative institutions to be similarly targeted by Democrats who

708
00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:53,039
would take the opportunity to use the precedents that are

709
00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:57,280
being set today and train them on their own ideological adversaries.

710
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,159
Speaker 3: And I think like having the irs, like having the

711
00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:00,320
irs sicked them.

712
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,079
Speaker 5: Oh, that never happened, though, James, you know that all. Yeah,

713
00:37:03,599 --> 00:37:06,199
they may have paid out settlements and admitted to doing

714
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,519
something there, but now we know in retrospect that nothing

715
00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:09,159
ever happened.

716
00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:13,119
Speaker 2: That's a digression regardless. I'm of two minds on that.

717
00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:14,079
On the whole.

718
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,639
Speaker 5: Antisemitism EO and the implication application of it, I think

719
00:37:18,639 --> 00:37:22,679
it's generally good, certainly warranted. When it comes to Colombia.

720
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,719
For example, Colombia was desperately trying to do what the

721
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,400
anti Semitism EO compelled them to do. It just couldn't

722
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,639
get out from under all the entrenched interests within Colombia

723
00:37:33,639 --> 00:37:36,360
that were that were preventing those kind of reforms, just

724
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,800
common sense reforms, and and things like calling the cops

725
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,679
on the students that were constantly taking over their campuses.

726
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,480
They were crying out for help. Harvard is a little

727
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,119
different in so far as some of it got some

728
00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:50,039
of the Columbia treatment, which I appreciate. The rest of

729
00:37:50,079 --> 00:37:53,159
it looks very arbitrary and capricious and an effort to

730
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,840
anathematize Harvard and rally cultural forces. That's not going to

731
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,039
fly in the courts. So I'm afraid that this whole

732
00:38:01,199 --> 00:38:04,599
enterprise is going to be scuttled by the sloppiness of

733
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:09,159
the application of these of the anti semitism in particular,

734
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:11,719
and just by virtue of the letter of the law,

735
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,400
will ultimately not last very long. And I think that

736
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,039
would be pretty unfortunate. On the other part, you know,

737
00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:22,639
the cessput of the studies department. I came out of

738
00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:26,000
the studies departments and in my liberal arts school, and

739
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,000
I think I got a pretty good education. But I

740
00:38:29,039 --> 00:38:32,480
was a sophomore in college when nine to eleven happened,

741
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:38,639
and immediately following, I think the following fall or the spring,

742
00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:43,800
the following spring semester, I took an introductory course that

743
00:38:44,039 --> 00:38:46,960
was an introduction to you know, Islamic studies, Middle Eastern studies,

744
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,039
because I wanted to get into the national security sphere,

745
00:38:49,519 --> 00:38:52,159
and there I was first introduced but to the thought

746
00:38:52,639 --> 00:38:56,480
of Edward said and I realized at the time that

747
00:38:56,519 --> 00:38:59,000
this all didn't make a whole lot of sense.

748
00:38:59,079 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: Indeed, I thought it was.

749
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,639
Speaker 5: It's pretty antithetical to the American creed because it rang

750
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,400
to me like race essentialism. Orientalism broadly as a theory

751
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:15,000
seemed to me like race essentialism, demographic essentialism. The idea

752
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:17,880
that your accidents of birth determine your course in life

753
00:39:18,079 --> 00:39:22,280
antithetical to the American idea. And you see, I think

754
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:27,119
I've been justified in that very early preliminary impression of

755
00:39:27,159 --> 00:39:29,400
his thought and the subsequent encounters I've had with it,

756
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,400
and the many progeny who have studied under Sayeed and

757
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,320
taken his ball and.

758
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: Ran with it.

759
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 5: It is pretty much the basis of what makes the

760
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,559
studies departments in these colleges suspect is they are generally

761
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,960
beholden to the idea that your accidents of birth sets

762
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,440
you on a pretty predetermined course in life. It's the

763
00:39:52,519 --> 00:39:55,840
sort of thing we used to call racism and bigotry,

764
00:39:56,199 --> 00:39:58,920
but in a particularly enlightened context, if you use the

765
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,159
right polysyllavic D, you can get away with it. And

766
00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:04,719
you can, in fact, you can call it highly.

767
00:40:04,519 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 2: Educated, right.

768
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,079
Speaker 5: And that's the sort of thing that I think we're

769
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:09,639
encountering in colleges. I don't think the federal government can

770
00:40:09,679 --> 00:40:11,880
make that go away. I think they can make it worse,

771
00:40:12,599 --> 00:40:13,800
but I don't think they can make it go away.

772
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,800
That'll take a change in the paradigmatic approach that Americans

773
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,400
have towards institutions of higher education generally and what they're

774
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,079
supposed to do, what the output the deliverables are supposed

775
00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:29,800
to be. Is a credentialism or is it preparing these

776
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,320
kids to navigate a professional environment.

777
00:40:33,039 --> 00:40:34,599
Speaker 2: Hopefully we get back to that sooner.

778
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 3: Rathan ly said in Isila, all the way up to Kenny,

779
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,039
that is so institutionally woven into the warp and the

780
00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:45,960
wolf of the institution. That's why when you say it's

781
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,559
difficult to get rid of, I agree with you, because

782
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,719
I mean, if you had seven, if you had a

783
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,880
week after week attack where somebody is driving his car

784
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,920
into a group of people on behalf of Palestine. The

785
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,639
difficulty that the college studies people would have is that

786
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,159
once you switch your allegiances and start to say, well,

787
00:41:02,199 --> 00:41:05,800
you know what, maybe Hamas and Gaza are are not

788
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,280
ethically pure and enlightened in this instance, then you have

789
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,519
to say that everything that undergirds their support of Ammas

790
00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:17,639
and cassod Got, the colonialism, Zionism, the imbalance of power,

791
00:41:18,159 --> 00:41:20,079
all of those things. They have to question all of

792
00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:22,559
those and those are fundamental beliefs. So asking a lot

793
00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:24,599
of these people in the universities is like saying, well, okay,

794
00:41:24,599 --> 00:41:26,199
you can still be a Christian, but you have to

795
00:41:26,199 --> 00:41:28,840
deny the divinity of Christ. Okay, so look with that

796
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,400
in your head. I don't know how they're going to

797
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,559
be able to do it without replacing a lot of

798
00:41:32,599 --> 00:41:34,719
these people. But how do you replace them when they're

799
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,559
tenured in the rest of it, When the entire intellectual

800
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,800
mission of these places is to instill in people the

801
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,519
belief in power dynamics and colonialism and the ills of

802
00:41:44,559 --> 00:41:47,119
an Orientalism and the rest of it. Again, you have

803
00:41:47,159 --> 00:41:48,960
to either come up with a new institution that does

804
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,800
things American things better, or you just have to promote.

805
00:41:51,519 --> 00:41:53,519
Speaker 5: Them I mean, there's a chicken egg situation here when

806
00:41:53,519 --> 00:41:57,519
it comes to anti Semitism and anti Zionism as just

807
00:41:57,559 --> 00:42:02,239
a really general expression of bias in these institutions. Are

808
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,280
they taking their cues from the activists or are they

809
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,920
producing activists. So in the wake of the ten seven attacks,

810
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,880
what we would hear from, for example, anti racism activists,

811
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,199
Black Lives Matter activists would be to layer over the

812
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:20,159
Israel Palestine dynamic the heuristic of American racial dynamics, which

813
00:42:20,199 --> 00:42:24,840
doesn't make any sense in the Palestinian Israel dynamic. But

814
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,039
you would hear that everywhere. You would hear it from

815
00:42:27,519 --> 00:42:31,360
Tanakhisa Coats who went there and applied generally the logic

816
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,000
of Jim Crow to the West Bank. For example, you

817
00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:37,440
heard activists in the streets whose names you never heard

818
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,480
of talk about the himas terrorists and murderers, as though

819
00:42:42,519 --> 00:42:45,679
they were using these words and taking directly the field

820
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:51,119
hands who had meted out vengeance against their masters. This

821
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:53,519
is all the language of anti slavery rhetoric, and it

822
00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:58,239
is just an effort to comprehend and understand a conflict

823
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,639
that is far more deep and far more plex then

824
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,440
they do give it credit for and so they're just

825
00:43:03,519 --> 00:43:06,119
seeking a way to navigate that by applying something that

826
00:43:06,159 --> 00:43:08,760
they understand to it. The thing is, you could be

827
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:10,800
forgiving of that if you hear it just on you know,

828
00:43:11,079 --> 00:43:13,440
a YouTube of a guy on a street corner shouting.

829
00:43:14,159 --> 00:43:17,559
But when it comes from credentialed and lettered academics too,

830
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,880
and there's very few distinctions between the rhetoric. You know,

831
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,719
it's hard to tell where one stops and the other begins,

832
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,480
and so it's hard to find out what you deracinate

833
00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:29,880
in order to you know, affect the change that you

834
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,360
want to see, because you could be going after the

835
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,119
wrong source. It's just so far gone at this point

836
00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:39,800
that it's hard to identify. I said, from establishing those

837
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,239
other institutions that you mentioned.

838
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: True, well, but I think we've conclusively studied it and

839
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,079
come up with our solutions here now, so we can

840
00:43:46,119 --> 00:43:48,519
move on to other places in the world where bullets

841
00:43:48,519 --> 00:43:52,800
are flying, people are dying, drones are going in Russia, Ukraine, Steam.

842
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,320
I believe you want to do and go point in

843
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,079
this one, Well I could so.

844
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,559
Speaker 1: No, I've been listening to you and reading you since

845
00:43:59,559 --> 00:44:02,320
the Ukraine War broke out. Then you've been very passionate,

846
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,719
and I think not personally invested. I don't know, maybe

847
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,519
that's too strong a term. You're very passionate about a

848
00:44:08,559 --> 00:44:09,000
lot of things.

849
00:44:09,079 --> 00:44:11,079
Speaker 2: You're personally invested. I am personally invested.

850
00:44:11,079 --> 00:44:14,039
Speaker 5: I have two degrees in Russian security policy, and I

851
00:44:14,039 --> 00:44:17,480
think the Moscow represents a profound threat to US national interest.

852
00:44:17,519 --> 00:44:19,199
So yeah, and so in so far as I'm invested

853
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,400
in the future security of this country, I am emotionally

854
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:23,480
committed to this cause.

855
00:44:23,599 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

856
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,039
Speaker 1: So I imagine, I mean, I want to ask a

857
00:44:26,079 --> 00:44:29,880
specific question, but I imagine you're probably disappointed with Trump

858
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,800
so far on the lack of progress of even making

859
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:34,440
a peace deal.

860
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,559
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, I think the project was ill

861
00:44:40,599 --> 00:44:43,800
conceived because that's what began from. It began from a

862
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:48,440
place that was that failed to properly apprehend the nature

863
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,320
of the conflict. So it was doomed to failure to

864
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,760
begin with. And I've been disappointed with the process because

865
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,320
it's There's been sacrifices that we've made along the way.

866
00:44:56,599 --> 00:45:00,519
The foremost among them is after that Oval Office, which

867
00:45:00,519 --> 00:45:03,599
I think was February twenty eighth, on the US cutoff

868
00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:06,960
intelligence sharing with the Ukraine and the intelligence that we

869
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,960
cut off was what they used to accurately target Russian

870
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,159
positions with attackers and Heimar's long range missiles. They couldn't

871
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,400
use those platforms, so they were routed in Kursk, in

872
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,840
that little sliver of Russian territory that they occupied, which

873
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,360
would have been a great negotiating chip at the bargaining table.

874
00:45:21,559 --> 00:45:24,199
But we literally just threw it away in a fit

875
00:45:24,199 --> 00:45:27,800
of peak in order to communicate our displeasure with the

876
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,320
Vlodimir Zelensky's sartorial choices.

877
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:32,199
Speaker 2: I don't even know.

878
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,679
Speaker 5: It was really stupid, and it was a material sacrifice

879
00:45:36,679 --> 00:45:38,000
of US interests in the process.

880
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 2: I don't think it's the last long we're going.

881
00:45:39,199 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 3: To make, right.

882
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: Well, I thought it was possible to make out a

883
00:45:43,199 --> 00:45:45,519
plausible strategy. I'm not saying they really thought this, but

884
00:45:45,599 --> 00:45:48,119
I thought, you know, I could see that you want

885
00:45:48,119 --> 00:45:50,559
to put the pressure publicly on Zelensky first, and then

886
00:45:50,639 --> 00:45:54,519
you put the onus on Putin to make the next move.

887
00:45:55,159 --> 00:45:57,920
And Putin has said no, I'm not interested. And it

888
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,000
does seem to me that Trump is being a slow

889
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,960
learner here. So I mean, what should are stiffer sanctions

890
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:06,039
and effective move here?

891
00:46:06,159 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: Is it too late for that.

892
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,639
Speaker 1: Do they work well at all? I've always been kind

893
00:46:08,679 --> 00:46:10,519
of skeptical that sanctions get us very far.

894
00:46:11,039 --> 00:46:11,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, they may.

895
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 5: I mean they to the extent that the foreign the

896
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,760
international relations of literature on sanctions is kind of ambiguous.

897
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,559
Do they change the behavior of regimes? Not necessarily, but

898
00:46:22,599 --> 00:46:26,519
not never. The problem is, as you say, Steve, that

899
00:46:26,599 --> 00:46:29,440
Vladimir Putin has not said no, I'm not interested. He's

900
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,000
playing a more deft game. He's implying that he's very

901
00:46:33,039 --> 00:46:35,800
much at the table, even though he makes no gestures

902
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,079
in the direction of either Ukraine or the United States. Indeed,

903
00:46:39,079 --> 00:46:41,760
he just absorbs concession after concession and asks for more.

904
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:44,639
But nevertheless he has not washed his hands of the things.

905
00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:48,679
That leaves open the prospect if you're committed ideologically, emotionally

906
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,360
to a deal for the sake of a deal, deal,

907
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,559
quad deal, then yeah, you're going to stay at the

908
00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:53,039
table too.

909
00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:54,159
Speaker 3: Right.

910
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 5: The thing is is that the administration has been signaling

911
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,239
that the posture could be shifting. The President himself hasn't

912
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,360
really signaled that yet. He said he's really frustrated. But

913
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,880
the administration itself has only in the space of the

914
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,800
last month lifted a hold on arms sales to Ukraine,

915
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,280
not the provision of arms, not not giving them arms,

916
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:18,400
but sales to Ukraine. It has lifted this week, targeting

917
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,599
restrictions on long range ordanites to the extent that they

918
00:47:20,639 --> 00:47:21,840
have it and.

919
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 2: Let me study of sanctions.

920
00:47:24,159 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 3: Stop you right there when it comes to the armaments

921
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,159
that we're giving them and now saying weapons free. I mean,

922
00:47:28,159 --> 00:47:29,760
this is you know you can, We're not going to

923
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,719
tell you what you can and it cannot hit. Isn't

924
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,000
there a bridge that goes to the Crimea that should

925
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,119
have been gone like within the first six months of

926
00:47:36,159 --> 00:47:36,760
this conflict.

927
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, so there were a couple efforts to target

928
00:47:41,119 --> 00:47:44,360
that via unconventional attacks.

929
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 2: There was his cars that exploded disabled it a little bit.

930
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean maybe they I don't I couldn't

931
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,840
tell you whether or not they have the ordinance necessary

932
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,199
to target that sort of thing. But yeah, that's that's

933
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,559
one of those various links to to Moscow that Ukraine

934
00:48:00,599 --> 00:48:01,920
would like to cut off. They've done a very good

935
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,199
job of putting the Black Sea fleet at the bottom

936
00:48:04,199 --> 00:48:07,559
of the sea. But they've done as far as I remember,

937
00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:09,800
They've dre been two attacks on the Kurk bridge, and

938
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,639
I don't think they've I don't think.

939
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 3: They've which always told me that we had that, We

940
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:15,599
told them they couldn't take it down.

941
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:17,639
Speaker 5: So just really, you know, just a point that I

942
00:48:17,639 --> 00:48:19,840
didn't get to make previously. It's very frustrating to hear

943
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,480
the president say, you know, something's changed in Vladimir Putin.

944
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:24,920
He's changed. Why is he killing all these people? Why

945
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,519
is he bombarding these cities.

946
00:48:26,199 --> 00:48:27,119
Speaker 2: That's so new to him?

947
00:48:27,199 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 3: Right?

948
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 5: The only reason why we're experiencing these overwhelming bombardments now

949
00:48:32,639 --> 00:48:35,400
over the last couple of days of cities like Kiev,

950
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:42,079
karkhiv Odessa is because Ukraine has had to triage defensive ordinance.

951
00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:45,039
It has to ration and defensive ordinance like Patriot interceptor

952
00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:48,280
missiles because they ran out of them because the Trump

953
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,960
administration isn't giving it to them. So all of a sudden,

954
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,079
we're having an intense penetration of Ukrainian airspace and the

955
00:48:54,079 --> 00:48:57,960
president says, well, woa, whoa what happened here? You happened here,

956
00:48:58,079 --> 00:49:01,760
mister president. This is the growth of your policies. This

957
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,639
is what your vice president wants. So yeah, take ownership

958
00:49:05,679 --> 00:49:09,000
of it. Don't act like the vice the President of Russia,

959
00:49:09,039 --> 00:49:13,280
who's never changed his stripes, who's extremely clear about what

960
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,800
his objectives are, to right the wrong of the collapse

961
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,039
of the Soviet Union and reclaim the glory of Catherine

962
00:49:20,119 --> 00:49:22,760
the Great, who sees the Black Sea coast in the

963
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,519
eighteenth century. This is what he says his goals are.

964
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,639
We invent these elaborate structures to explain away that he's

965
00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:32,440
not actually that crazy. He must mean something different, But

966
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,079
we're deluding ourselves in that process. He's extremely clear and

967
00:49:36,119 --> 00:49:38,679
his behavior is extremely consistent. All we have to do

968
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:39,280
is recognize it.

969
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 3: There are some who say we were talking about sanctions before,

970
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,119
whether they bite, whether they're biting now. People point to

971
00:49:48,159 --> 00:49:51,079
the imminent collapse of the Russian railway network because they've

972
00:49:51,079 --> 00:49:53,400
been locked out of good ball bearings, and for all

973
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,719
we know, they're using Chinese ball bearings made of melted

974
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,960
down American pennies. I don't know, but people seem to

975
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,079
forget that if the entire Russian nail away system collapsed

976
00:50:01,079 --> 00:50:03,039
and they were unable to get medi material to the front,

977
00:50:03,039 --> 00:50:05,199
they would they would get donkeys and drag them there

978
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,960
because they don't care what happens to the people that

979
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,480
they're sending, and that sort of seems to be the

980
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,559
you know, the the first thing that you realize about

981
00:50:15,559 --> 00:50:17,679
the government and the society and the culture you're dealing with.

982
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,840
And Trump does not. So do you think that he's

983
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,719
just ill schooled on the matter, or that he has

984
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,000
some instinctive aversion to overt criticism because he knows that

985
00:50:28,039 --> 00:50:30,880
there's a substantial portion of his electorate that A doesn't

986
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,079
care about Ukraine, is indifferent to it or actively hostile

987
00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:37,920
to it, and B has some sort of residual admiration

988
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,159
for Putin for whatever stupid reason that somewhere in that

989
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,639
that's influencing the things that he says, or just or

990
00:50:46,039 --> 00:50:46,599
who can.

991
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,519
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, somebody can know. I'm sure.

992
00:50:49,559 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 5: I'm just not equipped to render that judgment. I try

993
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:53,280
not to go splunking.

994
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 3: Oh we're going to have you want no no, no, no, no,

995
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,360
no no no. You're the guest. You're supposed to We

996
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,519
have degrees, you're supposed to come up with something. Why

997
00:50:59,559 --> 00:51:01,599
do we have guests and degrees? If they can't just

998
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,280
speculate me and make it sound as if they know

999
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,320
what they're talking about, Oh, if.

1000
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 5: You've encountered any really just a cursory review of the

1001
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,280
history of the last five hundred years, you've probably encountered

1002
00:51:16,119 --> 00:51:19,960
a little something about Russia's strategic approach to war fighting,

1003
00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:23,840
which is just to throw men at the front. There

1004
00:51:24,119 --> 00:51:26,719
was a pretty disturbing moll Street Journal report, I think

1005
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,679
yesterday or the day before about the extent to which

1006
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:35,239
the Russian economy looks now pretty much indistinguishable from the

1007
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,840
German economy and the interwar years and the late inter

1008
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,920
war years. It is a war fighting machine, and it

1009
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:47,480
is dependent on the subsidies provided to the wartime economy

1010
00:51:47,519 --> 00:51:49,840
from the government. And there are a lot of men

1011
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,559
who are earning a lot of money in services who

1012
00:51:52,599 --> 00:51:54,760
will not earn that in the private economy if and

1013
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,599
when it pivots back to being a consumer economy. And

1014
00:51:58,639 --> 00:52:00,880
Putin probably doesn't want a lot of those people returning

1015
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,639
from the front with a chip on their shoulder and

1016
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:06,280
a lot less money than they had previously and ideas

1017
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,880
in their head. I mean, this is how Stalin responded

1018
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,519
to the troops returning home, putting them in the gulag

1019
00:52:12,159 --> 00:52:15,559
for fear, accurately frankly that they would return home. The

1020
00:52:15,559 --> 00:52:18,760
same could be said after the Napoleonic Wars. That these

1021
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,719
troops would return home with a lot of ideas in

1022
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,480
their head that they didn't want infecting Russian society. The

1023
00:52:24,559 --> 00:52:26,079
best way to keep those men at the front is

1024
00:52:26,079 --> 00:52:28,320
to keep the war on. And if it's not this war,

1025
00:52:28,679 --> 00:52:32,400
then maybe it's another, which is what Kazakhstan is worried about,

1026
00:52:32,519 --> 00:52:34,719
which is what the Baltics are worried about, and frankly,

1027
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,480
I'm deeply concerned about when it comes to Estonian lava.

1028
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: Well, let me bring you to another conflict. Noah is

1029
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,239
a sort of our exit issue. One of the problems

1030
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,480
with Trump is it's hard to know exactly what he

1031
00:52:47,599 --> 00:52:54,559
thinks or perceived. My suspicion and fear is that he

1032
00:52:54,599 --> 00:52:57,199
wants to end two terms in office with having had

1033
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:01,840
no wars involving America started under his wall. Okay, nice sentiment,

1034
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,800
but I do think that that derives from his view

1035
00:53:06,679 --> 00:53:10,320
that well, he's not any good at analyzing the character

1036
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,320
of regimes, like I mean, it's three state we just

1037
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,519
said about. He doesn't understand Russian history in the Russian disposition.

1038
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,480
He's never read any of Gary Saul Morrison's great articles

1039
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,639
in commentary about Russia. That I think are so good

1040
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,079
on this. I think he thinks dealing with Russia's like

1041
00:53:23,119 --> 00:53:27,239
dealing with just a stubborn real estate deal with stubborn

1042
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,239
bankers and unions and all the rest of that. And

1043
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:31,920
now that works for him in some areas, but I

1044
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,519
think it does not work for him here. And the

1045
00:53:35,199 --> 00:53:38,400
collateral issue right now is, although you know Trump is

1046
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,079
pro Israel, I think he likes net and Yahoo. On

1047
00:53:42,119 --> 00:53:44,639
the other hand, it does seem that he has restrained

1048
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,599
Israel from striking Iran to take you out their nuclear sites,

1049
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,239
which they may or may not be able to do

1050
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,519
on their own. I'm not I don't have the military

1051
00:53:51,559 --> 00:53:55,400
knowledge about that, but even if they need our help,

1052
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,159
I think they ought to have it, as my opinion,

1053
00:53:58,079 --> 00:53:59,840
So I mean, what is your sense of things?

1054
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 3: What do you know about that?

1055
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:06,199
Speaker 1: Is Trump now being a problem for Israel's a position

1056
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:09,280
with Iran or what do you think is going to happen?

1057
00:54:09,679 --> 00:54:12,159
Speaker 2: Could be I don't know. I think you're right.

1058
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,159
Speaker 5: Your assessment of Trump is right and pretty innocuous.

1059
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:16,679
Speaker 2: Really.

1060
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,519
Speaker 5: I mean that is the experience that he takes to

1061
00:54:18,519 --> 00:54:21,559
the presidency, his time in business and in real estate,

1062
00:54:21,639 --> 00:54:26,320
and frankly in reality television. I think the people around him, though,

1063
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:30,480
have a grander vision, and that grander vision conflicts one

1064
00:54:30,559 --> 00:54:33,239
hundred percent with Trump one point zero. Trump one point

1065
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,639
zero was a very conventionally conservative administration when it comes

1066
00:54:37,639 --> 00:54:39,360
to foreign policy, for the most part, because he wasn't

1067
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,119
all that interested in foreign policy. He really did outsource

1068
00:54:42,159 --> 00:54:44,440
the administration to a lot of people who had been

1069
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,400
in and around government for years who didn't necessarily share

1070
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,760
his outlook when it came to US retrenchment and it's

1071
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,400
over extension abroad. Now he's surrounded surrounded by a bunch

1072
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,360
of people who say that the president's instincts are great,

1073
00:54:58,360 --> 00:54:59,960
that all he has to do is follow his instincts

1074
00:55:00,039 --> 00:55:02,639
and then incept in his head instincts that aren't necessarily

1075
00:55:02,639 --> 00:55:04,920
even his but are certainly theirs. And I see a

1076
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,039
ton of Obama in this approach. When it comes to

1077
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,000
Europe and the Middle East and the pivot to Asia,

1078
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,280
I see it all following a very similar trajectory. Barack

1079
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,320
Obama called America's NATO allies freeloaders. He attacked the Middle

1080
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,880
East saying they were prosecuting tribal grievances on our dime.

1081
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,000
He withdrew US combat divisions and the very last tank

1082
00:55:25,039 --> 00:55:28,920
division from Europe in twenty thirteen. We know what happened subsequently,

1083
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:33,960
eight months later, he engineered the US withdrawal from Iraq

1084
00:55:34,039 --> 00:55:36,719
and empowered the Iran led Schiite militias to get us

1085
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,239
out of there, which is why the Iraqi security forces

1086
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,079
collapsed amid the rise of Isis, which by the way,

1087
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:44,559
was something that we allowed to happen as well, because

1088
00:55:44,559 --> 00:55:47,039
we let Russia into Syria and said they got rid

1089
00:55:47,079 --> 00:55:49,159
of all the chemical weapons, even as the Aside regime

1090
00:55:49,199 --> 00:55:51,760
was buying oil from the Isis caliphates, so it could

1091
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,960
create this iss Lomist opposition, which would so he could say,

1092
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,519
all my opponents are Islamists to a man, as opposed

1093
00:55:58,519 --> 00:56:01,519
to these Western forces that I'm crushed in Syria's west.

1094
00:56:02,159 --> 00:56:03,719
And then you have the Iran deeal and the Iran

1095
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,119
Deal was supposed to finalize our divorce from the region.

1096
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,480
All of this was designed to facilitate the pivot to Asia,

1097
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,000
but the world just wouldn't cooperate because we just kept

1098
00:56:12,039 --> 00:56:14,679
creating a bunch of vacuums that were filled with bad actors,

1099
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,400
and we were forced to return at times and places

1100
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,559
that were not of our choosing. I see a lot

1101
00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:21,639
of that in Trump two point zero, and I think

1102
00:56:21,679 --> 00:56:24,639
it will evolve in the same direction and frustrate the

1103
00:56:24,639 --> 00:56:27,840
President's ambitions and America's ambitions, by the way, in the

1104
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,199
very same way, we are counting on the world to

1105
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,559
cooperate with a grand ideological vision that just does not

1106
00:56:34,679 --> 00:56:36,599
account for the world as it is, and is kind

1107
00:56:36,599 --> 00:56:40,599
of contemptuous of the world as it is. And these

1108
00:56:40,599 --> 00:56:42,519
are the same people who accuse me of being a

1109
00:56:42,599 --> 00:56:46,519
highly ideological foreign policy actor. But all I see is

1110
00:56:46,559 --> 00:56:49,880
ideology on the other side, and very few concessions to

1111
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,559
some unfortunate realities that maybe we wish weren't the case,

1112
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:54,159
but just are.

1113
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 3: Now that's the no I love. It's almost as though

1114
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:00,480
knowing history is a problem, and we have now that

1115
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,199
desire to be unburdened by what has come before. We

1116
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,760
will now unburden ourselves of our guest, although we love

1117
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:10,039
him and have him here as often as possible. The books,

1118
00:57:10,119 --> 00:57:12,599
as I mentioned, are the Rise of the New Puritans,

1119
00:57:12,599 --> 00:57:17,199
fighting back against Progressives, War on Fun and unjust social justice,

1120
00:57:17,199 --> 00:57:19,880
and the Unmaking of America. And as you can tell,

1121
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,360
mister Rothman is keen to discourse on other matters as well,

1122
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,599
and it's a pleasure to talk about things domestic and

1123
00:57:26,599 --> 00:57:31,039
cultural and foreign, international and contentious. So Noah, thanks a

1124
00:57:31,039 --> 00:57:33,679
lot for dropping by today, and we'll have you on again,

1125
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,079
and I hope it's to talk about how everything is

1126
00:57:36,119 --> 00:57:38,760
just going fine surprisingly, that the world is settled down

1127
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,639
and is getting along on hand, How boring would that

1128
00:57:41,679 --> 00:57:45,119
he'd be out of a job. All right? Thanks see bidings.

1129
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:47,960
So before we go, I suppose we shall also notice

1130
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,599
somebody else who went, and that was Elon Musk. He's

1131
00:57:50,679 --> 00:57:54,760
leaving Washington, and apparently he is. I wouldn't say he's

1132
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:57,159
the first person to come to Washington with a set

1133
00:57:57,159 --> 00:57:59,320
of ideas and then leave with those ideas a bit

1134
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:03,360
tarnished and disappointed. But he not the first, but he

1135
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:05,599
may not be the last.

1136
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: What do you think, well, I mean, look, I think

1137
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:10,599
this story is a bit of a sigh op by

1138
00:58:10,639 --> 00:58:13,039
the media. Trump was always going to be a temporary

1139
00:58:13,079 --> 00:58:17,000
presence because he was officially classified as a temporary government employee,

1140
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,480
which meant he could only do his job for I

1141
00:58:19,519 --> 00:58:21,400
don't know, one hundred and sixty days or something like that,

1142
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,039
half a year before, triggering some very difficult legal problems

1143
00:58:25,039 --> 00:58:27,400
for himself. So he was always going to go, and

1144
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,280
this was reported back in January, but somehow the media

1145
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,119
seems to have forgotten and now they're trying to make

1146
00:58:32,119 --> 00:58:34,000
a big deal about, oh my god.

1147
00:58:35,159 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 2: Musk is leaving.

1148
00:58:37,079 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: But I do think part two is, you know, Musk's

1149
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,880
probably a little naive, like a lot of Silicon Valley people,

1150
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:47,239
they don't understand why political problems aren't solved like engineering problems.

1151
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,400
Just add to the fact that Musk is I don't

1152
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,760
want to say autistic exactly, but he's somewhere out there

1153
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,880
in his own little world, a brilliant guy that he is,

1154
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,519
and determined and successful, and they're often frustrated by government.

1155
00:58:59,559 --> 00:59:02,199
So I think this is not a huge surprise. I

1156
00:59:02,679 --> 00:59:04,719
don't know more people will follow him or not, but

1157
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:07,840
I kind of expected something like what happened. I do think,

1158
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,840
finally point three, he may have been shocked because of

1159
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,519
his notavita, lack of experience, and how bad the blowback was.

1160
00:59:14,679 --> 00:59:17,159
I don't think he expected there would be vandalism and

1161
00:59:17,239 --> 00:59:20,960
fire bombings of Tesla dealerships and people keying the cars

1162
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,360
and people putting anti must stickers on their teslas that

1163
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,880
they bought three years ago and so forth. And you

1164
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:28,599
know that may have gotten to and bothered him a bit,

1165
00:59:28,639 --> 00:59:30,480
because I don't think he knew what he was getting

1166
00:59:30,519 --> 00:59:30,840
in for.

1167
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 3: I think being called a Nazi by millions of people

1168
00:59:34,039 --> 00:59:36,400
probably right those things, yes, which do not. I mean,

1169
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:37,880
you can laugh it off, make fun of him for

1170
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:39,159
the rest of it. When you know that there's all

1171
00:59:39,159 --> 00:59:40,679
of these people in these posters and these stickers and

1172
00:59:40,679 --> 00:59:42,880
the rest, deeply convinced that you made a Nazi, that

1173
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:48,159
you are a Nazi, it's extraordinary. I was on Reddit

1174
00:59:48,199 --> 00:59:50,639
the other day and there was a post that said,

1175
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,400
why are we not talking about the Why are we

1176
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,280
not still talking about the fact this guy gave a

1177
00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:00,400
Nazi salute? Okay, you know, why is this thing that

1178
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,559
is not true not still first and foremost inner conversation?

1179
01:00:03,639 --> 01:00:06,400
So I went to the post to read what people

1180
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:08,079
were saying, and the first thing that I noticed at

1181
01:00:08,079 --> 01:00:10,719
the top of it was that I had been banned

1182
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:17,000
from participating in this conversation. And actually I find this

1183
01:00:17,039 --> 01:00:18,719
from time to time on Reddit. I will stumble in

1184
01:00:18,719 --> 01:00:22,960
for something oddly terrifying, mildly interesting. What should I do? Gosh,

1185
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:26,679
I'm old you are banned from participating. You know why,

1186
01:00:26,719 --> 01:00:31,280
I why I'm banned in large swaths of Reddit. I

1187
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:37,559
made one comment in a subreddit called lockdown Skepticism, which

1188
01:00:37,679 --> 01:00:39,880
was all about back in twenty twenty one, which is

1189
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:45,440
all about being skeptical of the measures being taken to

1190
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:47,960
do something about COVID from the lockdowns to masking and

1191
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,559
the rest of it. The rules of this subreddit said

1192
01:00:50,679 --> 01:00:54,000
that this was not for anti scientific or anti vaccine talk,

1193
01:00:54,599 --> 01:00:58,760
that the moderators believed that COVID A was a serious

1194
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,840
condition and was not a made up thing, and that

1195
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:04,920
they would brook no conversation about it. Basically, it's like,

1196
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,440
you know, let's be let's have a reasonable conversation about

1197
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,159
lockdowns and masks, shall we. So what did I do?

1198
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,760
Did I wade in there and start using a musk,

1199
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:17,039
flamethrower and everybody and talking about you know, crazy stuff

1200
01:01:17,079 --> 01:01:19,559
like it it's from a lab, you know, insane stuff

1201
01:01:19,559 --> 01:01:23,400
like that from twenty twenty one. No, somebody was quoting

1202
01:01:23,519 --> 01:01:26,199
Charles C. W. Cook And we're going to end with

1203
01:01:26,239 --> 01:01:27,679
that since he's not here, and we'll bring him in,

1204
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:29,760
you know, sort of in this in the form of

1205
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:33,840
this story, quoting Charles C. W. Cook about his lockdown

1206
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:37,320
skepticism and his experience in Florida, and a reply to

1207
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:42,159
that was, well, you know, Charles, it's at least there's

1208
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:46,719
there's one sane person left at National Review, to which

1209
01:01:46,719 --> 01:01:50,159
I responded, well, I wouldn't say just one, you know,

1210
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,880
alluding to myself since I write there under my own name, right,

1211
01:01:54,280 --> 01:02:00,159
that's what got me banned, Simply saying that five words

1212
01:02:00,159 --> 01:02:03,639
in this subreddit got me banned from a large swath

1213
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:07,440
of Reddit, which is wondering why we're not calling this

1214
01:02:07,519 --> 01:02:12,760
guy a Nazi. I just absolutely love it. The place

1215
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:18,320
is a self refuting argument every day. Well, there we are, folks.

1216
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,320
We have had a wide ranging conversation, or as they say,

1217
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:25,079
after the Soviet premiere, Gurmico just got out with this counterpart,

1218
01:02:25,159 --> 01:02:30,079
a frank and honest discussion. I think of many things, Stephen,

1219
01:02:30,079 --> 01:02:31,199
How long are you in Iceland?

1220
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:33,559
Speaker 1: Another week?

1221
01:02:33,719 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 3: Well that's plenty of time to do the Golden Circle

1222
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,840
and explore all the games of throne sits and go

1223
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:41,199
someplace and have you know, have you wandered down main

1224
01:02:41,239 --> 01:02:44,000
street in Reykiavik And there's a great place the second

1225
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,519
floor they serve you soup in a bread bowl and

1226
01:02:46,519 --> 01:02:49,440
then eat the bowl, and then I think they also

1227
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,360
serve it with some sort of local fish that has

1228
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,960
been soaked in bleach. And it's the shark that's been

1229
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,639
soaked in bleach and then buried somewhere and smells absolutely awful,

1230
01:02:59,639 --> 01:03:02,360
but everybody has to try it. I think there's a

1231
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:07,519
cheeseburger McDonald cheeseburger that's been under a under it's been

1232
01:03:07,559 --> 01:03:09,800
sort of you know, under glass for like ten years

1233
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:11,760
and hasn't decomposed. There's that decen.

1234
01:03:13,079 --> 01:03:15,159
Speaker 1: There's this International Penis Museum here.

1235
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 3: There's that. There's that, and there's that great and terrifying

1236
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,559
and awesome church which does not seem to stand for

1237
01:03:21,599 --> 01:03:25,320
any particular doctrine that I can tell, but expresses this

1238
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:29,400
sort of empty aspiration for divinity that I find absolutely fascinating.

1239
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:31,440
It's it's quite something, yeah, quite a.

1240
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 1: Culture, quite a thing. Yeah, it's very strange building.

1241
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep. Well as they say about a country where

1242
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:40,599
it's way up there, quite isolated, and they have daylight

1243
01:03:40,679 --> 01:03:44,159
for you know, then they're dark. Everybody is an alcoholic

1244
01:03:44,199 --> 01:03:46,280
and is in a band, and that, you know, I

1245
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:48,599
can think of worse countries which it wants to be

1246
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:50,920
all right, So we'll probably talk to you there. I

1247
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:53,519
will be off next week gallivantink about someplace else. Charles

1248
01:03:53,559 --> 01:03:58,599
should be back, and you the viewer, the listener, the reader.

1249
01:03:58,639 --> 01:04:00,760
If you're just doing this on some sort of tube transcript,

1250
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,000
you might want to go to Cozy Earth, where you

1251
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,440
will get a big discout if you tell them that

1252
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,239
you came from us, And of course you'll find that

1253
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:10,559
in the in the posting on Ricochet out sell and

1254
01:04:10,559 --> 01:04:12,599
if you ricochet dot com itself is where you should

1255
01:04:12,639 --> 01:04:15,760
go after this to join. If you haven't already, you

1256
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:19,719
may have perused the main page for however many years,

1257
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:23,559
but never curious what goes on on the member side. Oh,

1258
01:04:23,719 --> 01:04:28,119
because if you just a few coins, we'll get you

1259
01:04:28,159 --> 01:04:30,639
into the thriving center right civil community you've been looking

1260
01:04:30,679 --> 01:04:33,320
for all your days on the internet. Also, give us

1261
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:35,679
a review wherever you happen to find a review possible,

1262
01:04:35,719 --> 01:04:37,599
because that surfaces the podcast and the next thing you know,

1263
01:04:37,639 --> 01:04:39,239
we've got more people listening, And the next thing you know,

1264
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:43,239
Ricochet is is rare to go for another year, and

1265
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,920
we'll be hitting podcast one thousand, about two hundred and

1266
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,519
fifty or so, so fifteen that's five years. I hope

1267
01:04:50,519 --> 01:04:55,840
we can make it. I'll be old by then. Here

1268
01:04:55,920 --> 01:05:00,519
we wish filling through my store bought teeth or not,

1269
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,960
we'll see. In any case, thanks for listening to folks.

1270
01:05:04,239 --> 01:05:06,400
I'm James Lilly. This has been on the Ricochet podcast

1271
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,119
Steven see you later and everybody else, Bye bye, yeah

1272
01:05:09,199 --> 01:05:09,800
next week