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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Pathway Chili.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and I'm Ashley.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's dive right into this week's case.

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<v Speaker 2>November seventh, nineteen ninety seven, New York City, New York,

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<v Speaker 2>fifty four year old Michael Sullivan and his thirty six

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<v Speaker 2>year old girlfriend, Camden Sylvia vanished without explanation from their

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<v Speaker 2>loft in Manhattan and are reported missing six days later.

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<v Speaker 2>Suspicion falls upon the couple's landlord, Robert Rodriguez, who was

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<v Speaker 2>involved in a dispute with them prior to their disappearances

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<v Speaker 2>and refuses to co operate with the investigation. It turns

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<v Speaker 2>out that Rodriguez is connected to the unsolved disappearance of

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<v Speaker 2>another man, which took place six years earlier, and even

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<v Speaker 2>though he eventually serves time in prison on fraud charges,

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<v Speaker 2>there are no answers about what happened to Michael and

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<v Speaker 2>Camden after that.

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<v Speaker 1>The path went Chiley. So this week we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>be exploring a bizarre missing person's case about a couple

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<v Speaker 1>from New York City. The nineteen ninety seven disappearances of

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<v Speaker 1>Michael Sullivan and Camden Sylvia. Michael and Camden were living

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<v Speaker 1>together in a loft in Manhattan until they seemingly vanished

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<v Speaker 1>in the thin air. But on the same day they

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<v Speaker 1>went missing, they presented a letter to their landlord, Robert Rodriguez,

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<v Speaker 1>where they announced their intention to go on a rent

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<v Speaker 1>strike unless he provided adequate heating in their building. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>when police started investigating Rodriguez, he would suddenly disappear himself,

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<v Speaker 1>but by the time he resurfaced ten days later, he

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<v Speaker 1>had hired an attorney and would no longer cooperate with

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<v Speaker 1>the investigation. Rodriguez would eventually go to prison on unrelated charges,

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<v Speaker 1>and it turned out that a former business associate of

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<v Speaker 1>his named David King, vanished with that explanation years earlier,

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<v Speaker 1>and he has also never been found. Now, while it's

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<v Speaker 1>easy to assume the worst about Rodriguez, there is zero

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<v Speaker 1>evidence that foul play took place where that he could

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<v Speaker 1>have been responsible for the disappearances of Michael and Camden.

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<v Speaker 1>There are just so many unanswered questions about the last

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<v Speaker 1>time the couple was confirmed to be alive, potential motives

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<v Speaker 1>for their disappearance, and what the logistics would have been

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<v Speaker 1>for getting rid of their bodies. It's a very puzzling case,

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<v Speaker 1>but we're going to explore all the different angles on

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<v Speaker 1>this series of episodes.

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<v Speaker 3>So things don't look very good for Rodriguez. Like you said,

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<v Speaker 3>while there's zero evidence that foul play took place, when

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<v Speaker 3>you actually look back, Rodriguez is tied to issues surrounding

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<v Speaker 3>finances and or the risk of losing finances. So this

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<v Speaker 3>person who went missing was his business partner. And then

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<v Speaker 3>the couple who went missing is also through to, let's say,

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<v Speaker 3>withhold rent and or force him to expend money to

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<v Speaker 3>make their loft better to fix the air there. And

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<v Speaker 3>then now he's serving time in prison for fraud. So

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<v Speaker 3>every time you look at Rodriguez, if there's a risk

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<v Speaker 3>to his finances or he has the ability to save

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<v Speaker 3>or make money, even if it's in an illegal way,

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<v Speaker 3>he takes it. And so it's very easy to see

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<v Speaker 3>why when they disappear and they've just served their landlord

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<v Speaker 3>this letter threatening a financial loss to him, that he's

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<v Speaker 3>tied to this crime.

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<v Speaker 1>Now.

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<v Speaker 3>I'd love to hear more about it, but there's no

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<v Speaker 3>doubt why this looks very suspicious. There's an mo here

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<v Speaker 3>where if money's at play, Rodriguez is definitely going to

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<v Speaker 3>try anything he can do to make more and spend.

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<v Speaker 2>Less, especially if he got away with murder one time before.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, like, it's very easy to be suspicious of Rodriguez

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<v Speaker 1>because he's had so many people associated with him go missing,

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<v Speaker 1>and that just seems like too much of a coincidence.

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<v Speaker 1>But at the same time, when you heard the details

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<v Speaker 1>about what happened, you're thinking, well, if he murdered Michael

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<v Speaker 1>and Camden, how exactly did he do it? And there's

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<v Speaker 1>also the possibility that the reason he didn't want to

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<v Speaker 1>cooperate with the investigation is because he was doing a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of other illegal thing involving fraud. So even if

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<v Speaker 1>he had nothing to do with the couple's disappearances, I

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<v Speaker 1>can understand his strange behavior.

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<v Speaker 2>Our story begins in New York City in nineteen ninety seven.

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<v Speaker 2>Our central figures are fifty four year old Michael Sullivan

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<v Speaker 2>and his thirty six year old girlfriend, Camden Sylvia, who

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<v Speaker 2>both share a fourteen hundred square foot loft on the

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<v Speaker 2>top floor of a five story apartment building located at

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<v Speaker 2>seventy six Pearl Street in Manhattan Well. Michael is a

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<v Speaker 2>native New Yorker who's lived in this apartment since nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventy six. Camden originally hails from the village of Hyannas

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<v Speaker 2>in the Cape Cod region of Massachusetts. After making the

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<v Speaker 2>move to New York, Camden got a job at a

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<v Speaker 2>Manhattan real estate office, which has been a place of

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<v Speaker 2>employment for the past fourteen years. She also works as

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<v Speaker 2>a pain on the side. Michael's primary occupation is an

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<v Speaker 2>admissions clerk at the New Museum of Contemporary Art, though

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<v Speaker 2>he also works as an actor, dancer, and choreographer. After

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<v Speaker 2>Camden became involved in a relationship with Michael, she decided

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<v Speaker 2>to move in with him, and they've lived together in

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<v Speaker 2>his lof for five years. The official date of the

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<v Speaker 2>couple's disappearance was Friday, November seventh, and while there were

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<v Speaker 2>contradictory details about when they were last seen, it sounds

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<v Speaker 2>like the final confirmed sighting of them took place at

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<v Speaker 2>four twenty pm, when they stopped by a video store

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<v Speaker 2>near City Hall to rent a VHS tape of the

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<v Speaker 2>romantic comedy Addicted to Love. Over the course of the weekend,

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<v Speaker 2>some of Michael's friends and relatives attempted to phone Michael

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<v Speaker 2>and Camden at their apartment, but could not reach them

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<v Speaker 2>and did not hear anything back. Camden never returned to

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<v Speaker 2>work at a real estate office, and by Tuesday, November eleventh,

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<v Speaker 2>one of her co workers had become concerned that Camden

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<v Speaker 2>had not at least attempted to call to her messages.

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<v Speaker 2>The coworkers started contacting Camden's family in Cape Cod to

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<v Speaker 2>see if they had heard from her, and word eventually

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<v Speaker 2>reached Camden's mother, Laurie Sylvia, who was in Washington, d C.

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<v Speaker 2>On a business trip. Once Laurie heard about what was

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<v Speaker 2>going on, she decided to travel to Manhattan and stopped

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<v Speaker 2>by her daughter's apartment building on Thursday, November thirteen. Camden

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<v Speaker 2>and Michael were not there, but most of their clothing

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<v Speaker 2>and personal belongings had been left behind in the loft,

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<v Speaker 2>including both of their passports and Michael's wallet. The VHS

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<v Speaker 2>tape for the movie Addicted to Love was found inside

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<v Speaker 2>the apartment, along with a time stamped receipt, which indicated

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<v Speaker 2>that the couple had returned home after renting it. While

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<v Speaker 2>one set of the couple's apartment keys was missing, the

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<v Speaker 2>other set was still there, so it seemed likely that

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<v Speaker 2>Camden and Michael had left together at some point. The

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<v Speaker 2>only other items that appeared to be missing were a

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<v Speaker 2>bag that Camden normally carried which took work home from

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<v Speaker 2>the office, as well the two pairs of running shoes,

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<v Speaker 2>which led to speculation that they might have gone out jogging.

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<v Speaker 2>This compelled Laurie to contact the New York Police Department

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<v Speaker 2>to officially report Camden and Michael missing. A search of

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<v Speaker 2>the couple's financial records showed that their credit cards had

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<v Speaker 2>not been used since November seventh, and there was no

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<v Speaker 2>pay per trayl for them since that date.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so a couple things that are interesting here is

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<v Speaker 3>that Camden and Michael are stable, but it doesn't seem

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<v Speaker 3>like they have these insanely profitable jobs. I wonder if

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<v Speaker 3>Michael came from money or if Camden came from money.

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<v Speaker 3>But Michael had been living in this fourteen hundred square

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<v Speaker 3>foot loft on a top floor in Manhattan, and even

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<v Speaker 3>in the seventies, rent was incredibly high in Manhattan.

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<v Speaker 2>What about rent control?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, okay, that's true too, because he had been there

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<v Speaker 3>for several years. I know that early seventies to late

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<v Speaker 3>seventies the finances went through the roof. So you're right,

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<v Speaker 3>if f rent control was in place, maybe that's a benefit,

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<v Speaker 3>But that's one thing that stood out to me. Is

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<v Speaker 3>anything else going on where they could be getting money?

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<v Speaker 3>And when you look at this idea that they had

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<v Speaker 3>maybe gone on a jog. Remember New York City, while

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<v Speaker 3>of course it's a big city, so it still has crime.

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<v Speaker 3>The seventies were rampant for murder, assault, drugs, lawlessness, those

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<v Speaker 3>kinds of things. And so is it completely out of

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<v Speaker 3>the realm that they got attacked or that something happened

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<v Speaker 3>to them when they, like you said, maybe did go

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<v Speaker 3>on a jog. So those are the two things that

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<v Speaker 3>stood out to me here. They just seemed to disappear

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<v Speaker 3>out of thin air. Nobody hears from them. And was

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<v Speaker 3>anything going on or was he from a family of

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<v Speaker 3>prestige And if that's true or they had some kind

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<v Speaker 3>of money, does that cause any kind of complication in

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<v Speaker 3>his relationships with people?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you just mentioned rent control, and we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>talk more about that in depth later on, because Michael

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<v Speaker 1>had got the apartment at a good price during the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventies, so he was living there for much cheaper

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<v Speaker 1>rent than any of the other tenants because of rent control.

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<v Speaker 1>And as we're going to talk about Robert Rodriguez was

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<v Speaker 1>not too happy about that because he wanted to have

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<v Speaker 1>other tenants in there who could pay a lot more

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<v Speaker 1>in rent, So that's why he was able to get

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<v Speaker 1>such a good price on such a large apartment. And

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned that could something have happened to them while

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<v Speaker 1>they went out for a jog, And that's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the main issue with this case is that, as we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk about, there are a lot of reasons

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<v Speaker 1>to be suspicious of Robert Rodriguez. We technically can't prove

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<v Speaker 1>that something didn't happen to them by crossing paths with

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<v Speaker 1>a complete stranger or something. And that is the main

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<v Speaker 1>issue is that we really don't know the last time

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<v Speaker 1>they were confirmed to be alive. We just know that

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<v Speaker 1>they rented a videotape, got back to the loft at

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<v Speaker 1>some point, and maybe went for a jog, But it

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<v Speaker 1>does not sound like any witnesses could confirm having seen

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<v Speaker 1>them gone anywhere. So that's the main issue is that

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<v Speaker 1>they just seemingly vanished into thin air.

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<v Speaker 2>Just to counter that jog theory, so it said that

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<v Speaker 2>Camden was missing a bag that she usually took work

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<v Speaker 2>home from the office with which would indicate that it

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<v Speaker 2>was like a larger purse or a briefcase type of bag.

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<v Speaker 3>So if you're going for a.

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<v Speaker 2>Jog, I mean, I know I wouldn't like I might

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<v Speaker 2>just carry a key and an armband. If I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to go for a jog, I wouldn't have a bag

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<v Speaker 2>with me, but definitely not a huge bag that you

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<v Speaker 2>would store I mean, they didn't have laptops then, but

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<v Speaker 2>you would store files in perhaps, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I agree with that, And it makes me wonder maybe

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<v Speaker 1>they weren't going for a job, Like maybe she had

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<v Speaker 1>something in that bag that she wanted to present to

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<v Speaker 1>Robert Rodriguez or something, or maybe like some papers she

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to present to a lawyer or something like that,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's why she left the lot with them, and

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<v Speaker 1>then something happened to her, which is why the bag

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<v Speaker 1>has never been found.

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<v Speaker 2>And just a quick question before we move on to

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<v Speaker 2>the next part. So about them having two pairs of

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<v Speaker 2>sneakers missing, was it atypical for them to be casual

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<v Speaker 2>enough to just like on their off hours, be wearing

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<v Speaker 2>sneakers just to go run errands or you know, go

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<v Speaker 2>meet up with a friend or anything to that effect.

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<v Speaker 2>Would it have to mean that they're going for a jog.

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<v Speaker 1>Unfortunately, I don't have that information. I don't really know

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<v Speaker 1>if it was typical for them to wear sneakers just

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<v Speaker 1>while doing casual activities, but it was November. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if because it was cold or weather, they might

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<v Speaker 1>decide to wear like boots or something when they went out,

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<v Speaker 1>if they were running errands, and only wear the sneakers

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<v Speaker 1>to go for a jog. But it is just kind

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<v Speaker 1>of speculation, and the fact that this is specifically mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>by the sources that they may have gone for a

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<v Speaker 1>jog because the sneakers were missing, makes me think that

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<v Speaker 1>these were a specific brand of footwear that they only

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<v Speaker 1>wore for the purposes of jogging. So on Saturday, November fifteenth,

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<v Speaker 1>investigators phoned the building's landlord, a fifty six year old

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<v Speaker 1>Cuban immigrant named Robert Rodriguez. Rodriguez was married with three

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<v Speaker 1>children and three grandchildren, and after purchasing the building in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety three, he opened up his own locksmith shop

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<v Speaker 1>on the ground floor. At this point, he lived outside

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<v Speaker 1>New York City on a seven acre estate located in

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<v Speaker 1>Orange County in the hamlet of Slate Hill. Rodriguez was

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<v Speaker 1>initially very cooperative with investigators and said he had arrange

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<v Speaker 1>for someone to provide them with keys to the building

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<v Speaker 1>so they could perform a search. The following afternoon, investigators

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<v Speaker 1>phone Rodriguez's residence to ask if he would come down

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<v Speaker 1>to the precinct for a formal interview. To their surprise,

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<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez's family informed them that around midnight the previous evening,

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<v Speaker 1>shortly after the original phone call with him, Rodriguez left

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<v Speaker 1>the residence and his Honda passport after saying that he

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<v Speaker 1>needed to go meet the police for an interview. By

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<v Speaker 1>the time investigators called to arrange the actual interview, Rodriguez

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<v Speaker 1>had still not returned home, so his family filed a

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<v Speaker 1>missing person's report with the New York State Police. One

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<v Speaker 1>week later. Rodriguez Has abandoned Honda passport would be discovered

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<v Speaker 1>inside a parking garage in Chelsea, and the time stamp

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<v Speaker 1>ticket showed that it originally pulled in there at two

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<v Speaker 1>thirty seven am on November sixteenth, only a few hours

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<v Speaker 1>after he left his residence. During Rodriguez's absence, police wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to perform a search of his house and property, but

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<v Speaker 1>his family refused to give them permission to do so.

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<v Speaker 1>Police countered by flying a helicopter over the property and

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<v Speaker 1>using infrared devices to search for any bodies that might

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<v Speaker 1>have been married on Freshly doug Land, but they found

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<v Speaker 1>no evidence that could be used as probable cause to

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<v Speaker 1>obtain a search warrant. After being missing for ten days,

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<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez finally resurfaced when he suddenly showed up at his

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00:13:23.879 --> 00:13:27.600
<v Speaker 1>locksmith shop at his apartment building. However, by this point

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<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez had hired an attorney and was no longer cooperating

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<v Speaker 1>with the investigation.

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<v Speaker 3>So why there doesn't seem to be any explanation for

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<v Speaker 3>why you would initially be caught and talked to law

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<v Speaker 3>enforcement and pretend like nothing's happened, agree to be hospitable

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<v Speaker 3>to them. Hey, I'll open up the law for you.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll get you keys, I'll come down for an interview,

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<v Speaker 3>and then you flee. You disappear to the point where

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<v Speaker 3>even your family is worried about where you are, and

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<v Speaker 3>file a missing US report and then you show back

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<v Speaker 3>up with an attorney and don't cooperate. I would understand

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<v Speaker 3>if these people are missing and you were very respectfully

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<v Speaker 3>said hey, listen, I'm gonna get my attorney. This man

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<v Speaker 3>clearly has some money, right so he may have an

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<v Speaker 3>attorney friend that he knows or have one on retainer,

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00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:19.360
<v Speaker 3>and he could say, Hey, I'm going to go ahead

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<v Speaker 3>and get my attorney. I have no problem trying to help.

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<v Speaker 3>Those are my residents, but I'm going to get my

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<v Speaker 3>attorney and we can go from there. That would not

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<v Speaker 3>have raised as many flags. This talking to them, fleeing,

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<v Speaker 3>disappearing to where your parents think you're actually just a

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00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.960
<v Speaker 3>missing person, and then showing back up and refusing to

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<v Speaker 3>cooperate really does paint you in a totally different light

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<v Speaker 3>than just saying I'd like an attorney present when I

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<v Speaker 3>talk to you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that definitely looks like pure panic, Like the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that he would lie to his own family and say

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<v Speaker 1>that he's going to see the police for an interview

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00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:53.559
<v Speaker 1>even though an interview had not even been scheduled that

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<v Speaker 1>at that point, and then just disappear and not tell

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00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:59.279
<v Speaker 1>anyone where you are. And I don't think if they've

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00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:02.600
<v Speaker 1>ever found out where exactly Rodriguez was during those ten

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00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:05.879
<v Speaker 1>days he was missing because he hired an attorney and

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't speak to the police. So makes you wonder what

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00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:10.879
<v Speaker 1>was he doing. What was his original plan? Was he

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00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:13.600
<v Speaker 1>just planning to hide out forever before he decided to

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00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.279
<v Speaker 1>come back and return to his normal life. But it

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00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:19.000
<v Speaker 1>just seems very bizarre that someone who wasn't even being

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00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.679
<v Speaker 1>fingered as a suspect or person of interest at that

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00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.279
<v Speaker 1>point just suddenly decides to take off.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, you made yourself a person of interest at that point.

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<v Speaker 2>It's giving guilty conscience. It turned out that on the

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00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:36.519
<v Speaker 2>morning of November seventh, hours before she disappeared, Counton had

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00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:40.840
<v Speaker 2>been seen heading towards Rodriguez's locksmith shop with the intent

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00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:43.759
<v Speaker 2>of presenting him with a signed letter. One of the

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00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:47.519
<v Speaker 2>couple's neighbors was a photographer named Chuck Delaney, who was

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00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:50.879
<v Speaker 2>the building's tenant representative on the New York City Laft Board.

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<v Speaker 2>According to Delaney, ever since Rodriguez purchased the building, there

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00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:57.879
<v Speaker 2>were always issues with him not turning up the heat

300
00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:00.759
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning of the winter season. Can Did and

301
00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:04.279
<v Speaker 2>Michael lived in a drafty, uninsulated loft on the top floor,

302
00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:07.120
<v Speaker 2>so the issue affected them more than any of the

303
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:10.559
<v Speaker 2>other tenants, and since this particular year had a much

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00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:14.519
<v Speaker 2>colder November than usual, they decided to take action. The

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00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:17.840
<v Speaker 2>couple put together a letter for Rodriguez, signed by themselves

306
00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:20.320
<v Speaker 2>and some of the other tenants, in which they announced

307
00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:22.919
<v Speaker 2>their intention to go on a rent strike and seek

308
00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:26.279
<v Speaker 2>enforcement from the New York City Heat Complaint Bureau and

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00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:29.960
<v Speaker 2>New York City Lapboard unless Rodriguez ensured that the building

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00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.840
<v Speaker 2>was properly heated. Canden also had a second letter containing

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00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.600
<v Speaker 2>a demand for Rodriguez to install a thermostat in her apartment.

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00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:42.440
<v Speaker 3>I mean, these are reasonable requests when you look at this.

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00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:46.360
<v Speaker 3>I just want to be healthy and safe and warm

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00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:48.799
<v Speaker 3>in a place that I pay for. So to me,

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00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:52.320
<v Speaker 3>anytime you're talking about water, heating and air, those kinds

316
00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:56.720
<v Speaker 3>of things that are heat specifically when you're looking at

317
00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:59.200
<v Speaker 3>that can be a health issue. You can't have your

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00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:04.799
<v Speaker 3>tenants literally freezing. And so I completely agree and understand

319
00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:06.799
<v Speaker 3>where the tenants are coming from. And it wasn't just

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00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:09.359
<v Speaker 3>this couple. Yes, they had it worse, but they got

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00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:12.079
<v Speaker 3>other people to sign and there was a history that

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00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:13.960
<v Speaker 3>this was already a problem.

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00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can definitely tell that Rodriguez is a shady

324
00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:21.000
<v Speaker 1>character who's not providing adequate conditions for his tenants. And

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<v Speaker 1>it does seem like quite a coincidence that Camden Michael

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00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:25.920
<v Speaker 1>would just happen to go missing on the very same

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00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.480
<v Speaker 1>day that they were intending to present Rodriguez with his letter.

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00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.200
<v Speaker 1>But at the same time, it doesn't really sound like

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00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:35.880
<v Speaker 1>extreme demands, So you're thinking to yourself, if Rodriguez is guilty,

330
00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:39.279
<v Speaker 1>how would something like this escalate into murder and lead

331
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:43.839
<v Speaker 1>to him killing two people. So there was additional tension

332
00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:46.240
<v Speaker 1>over the fact that the building was rent controlled and

333
00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:48.440
<v Speaker 1>Michael had lived in the law for twenty one years.

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00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:51.680
<v Speaker 1>As a result, the couple's rent was only three hundred

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00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:53.839
<v Speaker 1>and four dollars per month, but if they were to

336
00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:56.920
<v Speaker 1>leave and a new tenant moved into the building, Rodriguez

337
00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:59.480
<v Speaker 1>would be able to charge them ten times that amount,

338
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.440
<v Speaker 1>as the market rate for renting a fourteen hundred square

339
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.759
<v Speaker 1>foot loft in Manhattan during that time period was around

340
00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.920
<v Speaker 1>three thousand dollars per month. While Camden and Michael were missing,

341
00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:13.440
<v Speaker 1>Laurie Sylvia held frequent candlelight vigils for the missing couple

342
00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:17.559
<v Speaker 1>at the building alongside their friends and fellow tenants, to

343
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.440
<v Speaker 1>prevent Rodriguez from renting out the loft in their absence.

344
00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:22.759
<v Speaker 1>Laurie sent him a money order for three hundred and

345
00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.720
<v Speaker 1>four dollars to pay the rent on their behalf. In response,

346
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.160
<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez's attorney stated that he would not be accepting payments

347
00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:33.559
<v Speaker 1>from anyone besides the original tenants, though he offered his

348
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.440
<v Speaker 1>assurances that he would not rent out the loft until

349
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.839
<v Speaker 1>there were conclusive answers about what happened to them. Over

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00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:42.279
<v Speaker 1>the course of the next few years, police would perform

351
00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:45.480
<v Speaker 1>numerous searches of bodies of water in the area, including

352
00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.599
<v Speaker 1>the Hudson River, but never found any trace of the couple.

353
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:52.319
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes a body or a severed body part such as

354
00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:55.519
<v Speaker 1>the foot, would surface in these waters, but DNA testing

355
00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:58.160
<v Speaker 1>would always rule out the possibility that they belonged to

356
00:18:58.160 --> 00:18:59.200
<v Speaker 1>Michael or Camden.

357
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.160
<v Speaker 3>Okay, I'm really frustrated because poor Laurie Sylvia. She is

358
00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:08.680
<v Speaker 3>sending money to the landlord and he says, nope, sorry,

359
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:11.920
<v Speaker 3>won't accept it. But we don't worry. We'll hold the

360
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:16.319
<v Speaker 3>apartment until we figure out what happened. Here's what's stupid.

361
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:18.839
<v Speaker 3>There were many things he could have done with his

362
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.119
<v Speaker 3>attorney's help, such as I will accept your payment to

363
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.960
<v Speaker 3>hold the loft. However, no one but the original tenants

364
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:29.799
<v Speaker 3>are able to occupy the space while they are not here.

365
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.960
<v Speaker 3>I reserve the right as usual to enter the dwelling

366
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:37.640
<v Speaker 3>when I want, right that I have free ability to

367
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:40.599
<v Speaker 3>come and go, because usually that's a landlord's right anyway,

368
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:42.799
<v Speaker 3>and to monitor to make sure no one else is

369
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.920
<v Speaker 3>residing in this apartment. So while I will accept payment

370
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:49.240
<v Speaker 3>to hold their spot, no one else can actually occupy

371
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:52.000
<v Speaker 3>the loft. I could understand that for a million reasons,

372
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.359
<v Speaker 3>insurance reasons, things like that your tenants need to be

373
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:57.519
<v Speaker 3>the ones living there. But this is so ridiculous. It's

374
00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:59.000
<v Speaker 3>like a slap in his face where he's like, I

375
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:02.039
<v Speaker 3>don't want your money, but we'll hold it. Why not

376
00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:05.519
<v Speaker 3>just take the lady's money. You're clearly greedy and won't

377
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.160
<v Speaker 3>do things that cost money. Use the three hundred and

378
00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:11.200
<v Speaker 3>four dollars to put a thermostad in there, right, Like,

379
00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:13.640
<v Speaker 3>I understand that the rent could have been ten times

380
00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:16.079
<v Speaker 3>as much. That's what I was thinking when I was looking.

381
00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:18.599
<v Speaker 3>I know, a high rent back in the seventies would

382
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:21.319
<v Speaker 3>have been like seven hundred dollars, and they're paying three fifty,

383
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:23.720
<v Speaker 3>So that was even a low rent in the seventies.

384
00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:26.279
<v Speaker 2>So I think it's kind of weird that he's not

385
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:28.640
<v Speaker 2>going to take the money. But I wonder if by

386
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:32.359
<v Speaker 2>not taking the money, it's almost like subterfuge, like, oh,

387
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm not greedy and I don't need the money. Therefore

388
00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:37.720
<v Speaker 2>I would never kill them to get them out of

389
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.359
<v Speaker 2>this apartment, because if I were to take that money,

390
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:42.640
<v Speaker 2>it would say like, I need the money, but I'm

391
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.839
<v Speaker 2>not doing that, so I must be innocent of whatever

392
00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:46.519
<v Speaker 2>happened to them.

393
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.640
<v Speaker 3>Okay, that's an incredibly good point, Jewels. See, this is

394
00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:51.759
<v Speaker 3>why we have multiple people on this podcast. That's a

395
00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.000
<v Speaker 3>good point, because if I'm desperate for this three hundred

396
00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:56.440
<v Speaker 3>and four dollars from this poor couple that's missing, it

397
00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:59.039
<v Speaker 3>does look a little shady because again, that's not very

398
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:02.000
<v Speaker 3>significant when it's going towards what rent could be. So

399
00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:03.640
<v Speaker 3>I could see that aspect as well.

400
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and he learned about his personality, that would make

401
00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:09.079
<v Speaker 1>sense that he's just trying to look like the concerned

402
00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:11.400
<v Speaker 1>landlord and trying to say, oh, I'm not only in

403
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.440
<v Speaker 1>this for the money. I really do care what happens

404
00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:15.039
<v Speaker 1>to these tenants, so I'm going to do what I

405
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.079
<v Speaker 1>can to support their families, even though I can tell

406
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:20.519
<v Speaker 1>it's probably driving him crazy that he has this large

407
00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:23.359
<v Speaker 1>loft that he could potentially get three thousand dollars per

408
00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:25.599
<v Speaker 1>month for and he still isn't able to rent it

409
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:27.799
<v Speaker 1>out well.

410
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.160
<v Speaker 2>Believe it or not, this was not the only unsolved

411
00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.200
<v Speaker 2>missing person's case from New York City which Rodriguez was

412
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:38.039
<v Speaker 2>connected to. On January twenty second, nineteen ninety one, David King,

413
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:41.119
<v Speaker 2>a thirty one year old African American man who lived

414
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:43.920
<v Speaker 2>with his wife and two children in the Flatbush neighborhood

415
00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:47.119
<v Speaker 2>of Brooklyn, was last seen leaving his residence to head

416
00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:50.279
<v Speaker 2>to his job at the fire Safe Alarm Systems in

417
00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:54.160
<v Speaker 2>Lower Manhattan, but he never returned home and was subsequently

418
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.720
<v Speaker 2>reported missing months later. While the owner of the fire

419
00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:01.799
<v Speaker 2>Safe Alarm Systems was none other than Robert Rodriguez, and

420
00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:05.119
<v Speaker 2>it had originally been a lock and security business before

421
00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:09.640
<v Speaker 2>Rodriguez decided to expand his operations by servicing fire alarms,

422
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:14.279
<v Speaker 2>one of Rodriguez's employees was David King, who had previously

423
00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:17.240
<v Speaker 2>worked as a fire alarm technician for a competing company

424
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:23.119
<v Speaker 2>called Multiplex Electrical Services AKAMES. While at the time King

425
00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:27.720
<v Speaker 2>went missing, he Rodriguez and another FORMERMES employee named Derek

426
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.240
<v Speaker 2>Brickhouse were listed as co defendants in a thirteen million

427
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:35.839
<v Speaker 2>dollar civil lawsuit Frommes, who alleged that the defendants had

428
00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:40.640
<v Speaker 2>conspired to loot computer software, business records, and customer information

429
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:45.119
<v Speaker 2>from their company. With Brickhouse's assistants, King had supposedly spent

430
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:49.000
<v Speaker 2>the better part of six months supplying Rodriguez with confidential

431
00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:52.960
<v Speaker 2>materials from MAS while he was employed there. When the

432
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:57.279
<v Speaker 2>company fired King in January of nineteen ninety, Rodriguez hired

433
00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:00.240
<v Speaker 2>him to work at fire Safe Alarm Systems and was

434
00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.880
<v Speaker 2>apparently planning to make him his business partner. However, it

435
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:06.720
<v Speaker 2>does not sound like this arrangement ever came to fruition,

436
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.720
<v Speaker 2>and shortly before he vanished, King had reportedly been seen

437
00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:15.240
<v Speaker 2>having an argument with Rodriguez about the situation. At this point,

438
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:20.279
<v Speaker 2>Mis's lawsuit was cutting towards litigation, but King's disappearance delayed

439
00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:23.960
<v Speaker 2>the proceedings until a judgment was eventually issued against King

440
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:26.480
<v Speaker 2>and he was ordered to pay over ninety one thousand

441
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.359
<v Speaker 2>dollars in damages to MIS. The company agreed to drop

442
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:33.799
<v Speaker 2>the lawsuit against Rodriguez and Derek Brickhouse in exchange. Who

443
00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:37.400
<v Speaker 2>a guarantee that Rodriguez would return all the software and

444
00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.480
<v Speaker 2>confidential information King had provided to him and not perform

445
00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.480
<v Speaker 2>work in any buildings which use mis fire alarm systems.

446
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.359
<v Speaker 2>For years, police never performed any sort of investigation into

447
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.160
<v Speaker 2>King's disappearance, as they figured that he might have run

448
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.480
<v Speaker 2>away to avoid his legal troubles. But the disappearances of

449
00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:58.759
<v Speaker 2>Michael in Camden prompted them to give King's case a

450
00:23:58.839 --> 00:23:59.440
<v Speaker 2>second look.

451
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Absolutely, And remember here King is originally someone who

452
00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.599
<v Speaker 3>you'd think, well, that's an ally for Rodriguez, he's helping him.

453
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:10.960
<v Speaker 3>But then when they get caught, now King might be

454
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.319
<v Speaker 3>a liability as well, and who knows what deals could

455
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:16.000
<v Speaker 3>have been made, or if he could have turned on

456
00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:19.759
<v Speaker 3>Rodriguez or whatnot. So I could see when you first

457
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:22.599
<v Speaker 3>started describing it, I thought, well, King's on his side,

458
00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.400
<v Speaker 3>why would Rodriguez want him gone? But as it progresses

459
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:29.839
<v Speaker 3>into litigation and there's these issues where they're taking legal

460
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:32.279
<v Speaker 3>action and it's not as simple as it was in

461
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:36.200
<v Speaker 3>the onset, I could actually see where someone like Rodriguez says,

462
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:39.400
<v Speaker 3>I need to eliminate some of the risk. And again,

463
00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:42.559
<v Speaker 3>like we said, it's not until Camden and Michael actually

464
00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:44.559
<v Speaker 3>go missing that anyone even looked at him for that,

465
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:49.000
<v Speaker 3>And so again, why did Rodriguez run, Why did he

466
00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:52.000
<v Speaker 3>draw attention to himself? Why did he go missing and

467
00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:55.079
<v Speaker 3>then re emerge in the Camden and Michael case, Because

468
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.200
<v Speaker 3>then he gets himself where not only is he being

469
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:01.960
<v Speaker 3>a targeted investigation on him for their disappearance, but now

470
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:06.400
<v Speaker 3>King becomes another issue that's relevant again when he was

471
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:07.640
<v Speaker 3>never on the radar for that.

472
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:11.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, back in nineteen ninety one, Rodriguez was never looked

473
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.279
<v Speaker 1>at as a suspect or person of interest because law

474
00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:17.359
<v Speaker 1>enforcement just figured King ran away. And when you look

475
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:20.880
<v Speaker 1>at the situation, he pretty much became a convenience scapegoat

476
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:24.519
<v Speaker 1>for Rodriguez because since King disappeared, he was on the

477
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:27.000
<v Speaker 1>hook to pay all the damages from the lawsuit, while

478
00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:30.319
<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez and his other partner, brick House, didn't have to

479
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.839
<v Speaker 1>pay anything. And at the time, nobody found that suspicious.

480
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.000
<v Speaker 1>But then people are seeing a pattern here saying that

481
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:40.119
<v Speaker 1>whenever someone causes an inconvenience in Rodriguez's life, it just

482
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:43.039
<v Speaker 1>seems they happened to go missing, And you couple with

483
00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:45.559
<v Speaker 1>the fact that they had a dispute over King not

484
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:49.640
<v Speaker 1>being made a business partner like Rodriguez had promised him,

485
00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:51.359
<v Speaker 1>and you can see why he might have had a

486
00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:55.119
<v Speaker 1>motive to try to make him disappear as well. So

487
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:58.400
<v Speaker 1>in December of nineteen ninety seven, investigators announced that they

488
00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:01.279
<v Speaker 1>were planning to exuom an unidentified by John Doe who

489
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.160
<v Speaker 1>had been buried in the city's Potter's Field on Hart Island.

490
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:07.880
<v Speaker 1>After searching through hundreds of missing persons cases and medical

491
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.200
<v Speaker 1>examiners files, they came across a report for an African

492
00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:13.960
<v Speaker 1>American male who had washed ashore from the East River

493
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:17.200
<v Speaker 1>on March the eighth, nineteen ninety one, less than two

494
00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:21.039
<v Speaker 1>months after David King originally went missing. His cause of

495
00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:23.640
<v Speaker 1>death was determined to be drowning, and he apparently bore

496
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:26.799
<v Speaker 1>a striking resemblance to King in his Morge photographs, but

497
00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:29.240
<v Speaker 1>no dental records or X rays could be found for

498
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:32.480
<v Speaker 1>King to compare them to the John Doe. I know

499
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:36.640
<v Speaker 1>that some sources state that investigators wanted to perform DNA testing,

500
00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:40.119
<v Speaker 1>but members of King's family refused to provide a sample

501
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:43.119
<v Speaker 1>of their blood for the testing to take place. But

502
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.319
<v Speaker 1>I have also read another article from The New York

503
00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:48.440
<v Speaker 1>Times in January of nineteen ninety nine, which states that

504
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.599
<v Speaker 1>the DNA testing did occur and the results were inconclusive

505
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:53.960
<v Speaker 1>either way. It does not look like it was ever

506
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.119
<v Speaker 1>conclusively proven that King was the John Doe, and he

507
00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:00.359
<v Speaker 1>is still listed as missing to this day. Of course,

508
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.799
<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez was looked at as a potential suspect in King's disappearance,

509
00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:06.319
<v Speaker 1>but no evidence was ever found implicate them.

510
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:10.480
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so that's interesting that you have conflicting reports that

511
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:14.799
<v Speaker 3>there there was nothing to compare to, and then there

512
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.240
<v Speaker 3>was to me. Wouldn't you have first actually made sure

513
00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:22.240
<v Speaker 3>you had something to compare to before you exhumed a

514
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:26.680
<v Speaker 3>body that seems really invasive and something that's incredibly personal,

515
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:30.000
<v Speaker 3>that this body's going to be dug up and investigated again,

516
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:32.240
<v Speaker 3>I would think that they would say, listen, we have

517
00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:34.480
<v Speaker 3>DINAL records for this man. We have family members who

518
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.240
<v Speaker 3>have agreed to provide DNA. Let's go ahead and exhume

519
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:40.200
<v Speaker 3>the body and perform these tests. So, perhaps the New

520
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:42.680
<v Speaker 3>York Times article is accurate and the other one.

521
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:45.759
<v Speaker 1>Is not, possibly because it does seem weird to be

522
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.680
<v Speaker 1>that King's family would refuse to provide a sample and

523
00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:51.119
<v Speaker 1>if they did it, it could be a thing where

524
00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:53.480
<v Speaker 1>maybe they initially promised to you, but then after the

525
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.640
<v Speaker 1>body was exhumed, they changed their mind. But I am

526
00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.000
<v Speaker 1>inclined to believe that the New York Times article is

527
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:01.559
<v Speaker 1>probably accurate, that maybe they did do the DNA and

528
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.000
<v Speaker 1>the results just didn't prove anything. So you can't really

529
00:28:05.079 --> 00:28:07.759
<v Speaker 1>rule out the possibility that this Jen Doe could have

530
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:10.480
<v Speaker 1>been King. You just don't really have any way to

531
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:14.559
<v Speaker 1>prove it. But that's interesting though, because DNA testing has

532
00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:18.039
<v Speaker 1>advanced so much since nineteen ninety nine. So I would

533
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:20.200
<v Speaker 1>like them to see him, maybe give it another shot,

534
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:24.400
<v Speaker 1>like maybe do genetic genealogy or something on the unidentified

535
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:27.279
<v Speaker 1>deceeeded and see if he matches anyone from King's family

536
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:29.839
<v Speaker 1>or anyone else from that matter, But I don't know

537
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:31.480
<v Speaker 1>if that's a top priority right now.

538
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:39.240
<v Speaker 2>However, Rodriguez's connection to the disappearance of Michael Sullivan in Counden, Sylvia,

539
00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:43.119
<v Speaker 2>prompted investigators to perform a deep dive into his background

540
00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:46.720
<v Speaker 2>in the Manhattan District Attorney's office, and a federal grand

541
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:50.759
<v Speaker 2>jury would eventually subpoena financial records from his locksmith shop.

542
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:54.640
<v Speaker 2>It turned out that Rodriguez had purchased the apartment building

543
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:58.079
<v Speaker 2>with insurance money he'd been awarded when the original house

544
00:28:58.119 --> 00:29:02.759
<v Speaker 2>on his property in Orange County down. While investigators concluded

545
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:05.799
<v Speaker 2>that the fire was likely arson, they were never able

546
00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:08.680
<v Speaker 2>to figure out who started it. At the time Michael

547
00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:12.119
<v Speaker 2>and Camden went missing, Rodriguez was suffering from a number

548
00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:15.519
<v Speaker 2>of financial problems, as he owed over thirty two thousand

549
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:18.559
<v Speaker 2>dollars in back taxes on the apartment building, and his

550
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.359
<v Speaker 2>locksmith's shop seemed to be the only thing which was

551
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:26.119
<v Speaker 2>keeping the building afloat. While the investigation into Rodriguez's financial

552
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:29.920
<v Speaker 2>history turned up a ton of a legal activity, because

553
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:32.759
<v Speaker 2>in January of nineteen ninety nine, he was arrested on

554
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:36.960
<v Speaker 2>state and federal charges for such crimes as larceny, tax fraud,

555
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:40.319
<v Speaker 2>and credit card fraud. One of his scams involved using

556
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:43.200
<v Speaker 2>the social security number and birth date of a deceased

557
00:29:43.240 --> 00:29:46.759
<v Speaker 2>man named Alan Rodriguez, who was of no relation to him,

558
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:49.599
<v Speaker 2>in order to open up credit card accounts and purchased

559
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:52.880
<v Speaker 2>a number of items which he never paid for. Rodriguez

560
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.000
<v Speaker 2>had also spent years laundering around one point three million

561
00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.440
<v Speaker 2>dollars in income from his locksmith's shop and side security

562
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:02.440
<v Speaker 2>business in in order to avoid paying taxes on them.

563
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:06.359
<v Speaker 3>He seems incredibly bold that he I mean, he owns

564
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:10.880
<v Speaker 3>acres of land where he lives, he has this apartment complex,

565
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:15.440
<v Speaker 3>he has the locksmith's shop that he's running, and then

566
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.680
<v Speaker 3>he's also doing all of these these financial fraud crimes.

567
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:20.920
<v Speaker 3>And so for me, when I start to think about

568
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:26.319
<v Speaker 3>the idea that Rodriguez is that bold and that aggressive

569
00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:30.119
<v Speaker 3>in the way that he operates his businesses, his personal finances,

570
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:32.720
<v Speaker 3>and he doesn't think that he'll get caught, or that

571
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.400
<v Speaker 3>he operates like he's above any kind of punishment or

572
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:39.519
<v Speaker 3>even being found out. So then to say, does he

573
00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:43.279
<v Speaker 3>carry that into violent crimes as well? It's very possible

574
00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:46.039
<v Speaker 3>he operates like he's above the law, that he's almost

575
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.079
<v Speaker 3>a god complex where I can take this man's identity,

576
00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:51.640
<v Speaker 3>I can charge things I know I can't pay for.

577
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:54.000
<v Speaker 3>I will have the best of what I want, and

578
00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:56.039
<v Speaker 3>I will kind of live life the way I want,

579
00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:58.960
<v Speaker 3>even if that's with the legal activity. And so how

580
00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:01.119
<v Speaker 3>much of a jump is it to say, hey, there's

581
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:05.279
<v Speaker 3>a significant financial benefit while I'm already in financial trouble

582
00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:08.039
<v Speaker 3>to making sure that I could get three thousand dollars

583
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:10.839
<v Speaker 3>a month instead of three hundred dollars a month. Is

584
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:13.920
<v Speaker 3>it crazy to think he could take those two out? No,

585
00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:17.720
<v Speaker 3>so again, Rodriguez has gone himself into incredibly hot water

586
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:20.119
<v Speaker 3>by just being erratic and thinking that he can do

587
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:23.359
<v Speaker 3>whatever he wants and avoid any kind of consequence.

588
00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:27.079
<v Speaker 1>It can be interpreted in a number of different ways,

589
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:29.839
<v Speaker 1>because obviously, when you see all the crimes he's committed,

590
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.319
<v Speaker 1>it's easy to believe he's capable of murder. But at

591
00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:34.519
<v Speaker 1>the same time, if he had nothing to do with

592
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:38.240
<v Speaker 1>Michael and Camden's disappearance, this could also provide a potential

593
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:41.519
<v Speaker 1>alternate explanation for why he decided to run away when

594
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:44.640
<v Speaker 1>the police were starting to question him, because maybe he thought, Ooh,

595
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:47.039
<v Speaker 1>I've done all this other illegal stuff, and if I

596
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:50.079
<v Speaker 1>start being investigated, they're going to discover it. I'm going

597
00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:52.240
<v Speaker 1>to get into a lot of trouble. And I guess

598
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:54.720
<v Speaker 1>that is technically true, because if he had not become

599
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:57.359
<v Speaker 1>a person of interest in this case, they probably wouldn't

600
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:00.759
<v Speaker 1>never have uncovered all this other illegal stuff he was doing,

601
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:03.079
<v Speaker 1>and he never would have been arrested. So I guess

602
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:06.400
<v Speaker 1>it depends on how you interpreted Was he running away

603
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:08.640
<v Speaker 1>because he had committed a double murder? Or was he

604
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:10.880
<v Speaker 1>running away because he was trying to hide all this

605
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:15.559
<v Speaker 1>other illegal stuff that he've been doing so. Following Rodriguez's arrest,

606
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:18.200
<v Speaker 1>the police finally decided to perform a search of his

607
00:32:18.279 --> 00:32:21.519
<v Speaker 1>house and property in Orange County, but found nothing, and

608
00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:24.920
<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez's wife would subsequently divorce him and sell their house.

609
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.759
<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez decided to sell his apartment building, and the new

610
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:32.480
<v Speaker 1>owners finally gave permission for police to search it. They

611
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:35.079
<v Speaker 1>used kida or sniffing dogs and tore up the flooring

612
00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:38.920
<v Speaker 1>in Rodriguez's locksmithshop, or were unable to find any evidence

613
00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:41.559
<v Speaker 1>which shed light on what happened to Michael and Camden.

614
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:46.240
<v Speaker 1>Following the building's acquisition, the new owner served Laurie Sylvia

615
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:49.839
<v Speaker 1>with an eviction notice for her daughter's loft. Even though

616
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:52.559
<v Speaker 1>Laurie attempted to fight this in court, the ruling was

617
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:55.640
<v Speaker 1>that since Camden and Michael were presumed dead, they were

618
00:32:55.640 --> 00:32:59.000
<v Speaker 1>no longer protected by rent stabilization, so their lof could

619
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:01.160
<v Speaker 1>be rented out to a new tenant at the current

620
00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:05.519
<v Speaker 1>market rate. In October of nineteen ninety nine, Rodriguez pled

621
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:08.359
<v Speaker 1>guilty to tax and credit card fraud, and as part

622
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:11.039
<v Speaker 1>of a plea agreement, he would receive a prison sentence

623
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:14.119
<v Speaker 1>of two to six years. Less than two years later,

624
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:17.240
<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez managed to attain parole and he was scheduled to

625
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:19.799
<v Speaker 1>be a release from prison on August the thirtieth, two

626
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:23.200
<v Speaker 1>thousand and two. But this decision was met with backlash

627
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:26.839
<v Speaker 1>from law enforcement officials and the families of Michael and Camden,

628
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:30.640
<v Speaker 1>as their disappearances were not mentioned at all during Rodriguez's

629
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:34.839
<v Speaker 1>parole hearing. In response, the New York State Parole Board

630
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:38.200
<v Speaker 1>decided to reinterview Rodriguez asked him about a cash of

631
00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:41.359
<v Speaker 1>licensed guns he owned. One of the conditions of his

632
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:44.359
<v Speaker 1>early release would be for him to turn in these guns,

633
00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:47.319
<v Speaker 1>but Rodriguez claimed he could not account for them, and

634
00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:50.680
<v Speaker 1>the Parole Board described him as being quote unquote evasive

635
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:54.519
<v Speaker 1>and intentionally deceitful at his answers, as he even invoked

636
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:57.519
<v Speaker 1>his Fifth Amendment privilege at one point and declined to

637
00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:01.559
<v Speaker 1>answer any questions to avoid self and crime. Nation This

638
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:05.240
<v Speaker 1>prompted the board to reverse their decision about Rodriguez's early parole,

639
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:07.400
<v Speaker 1>and he would be forced to serve out his full

640
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:10.920
<v Speaker 1>sentence before he was finally released in August of two

641
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.159
<v Speaker 1>thousand and four. Rodriguez subsequently moved to East Harlem, and

642
00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:17.559
<v Speaker 1>as far as we can tell, he is still alive

643
00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:20.840
<v Speaker 1>today at the age of eighty four. Rodriguez has continued

644
00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:24.039
<v Speaker 1>to deny any involvement in the disappearances of Michael Sullivan

645
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:27.519
<v Speaker 1>and Canden Sylvia, but after twenty eight years, they both

646
00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:31.079
<v Speaker 1>continue to remain missing persons. So I guess you could

647
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:32.920
<v Speaker 1>say the path went chili.

648
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.719
<v Speaker 3>Oh, that's fascinating. When the parole board's talking to him,

649
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:39.880
<v Speaker 3>it's again this man who's sitting there like, you know what,

650
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:41.760
<v Speaker 3>I don't have to tell these people what they're asking.

651
00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:44.840
<v Speaker 3>I'm pretty sure I'm going to get parole. He just

652
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.400
<v Speaker 3>kind of operates above what's normal. Right that I could

653
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:52.400
<v Speaker 3>be transparent. I could give these guns to them. You

654
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:55.559
<v Speaker 3>can't account for them. They're your licensed guns, so it's

655
00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:57.480
<v Speaker 3>not even like their illegal guns. And he could say, oh,

656
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:00.159
<v Speaker 3>I never had that or right, they're license to him,

657
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:02.719
<v Speaker 3>and so why not just turn those over? And he

658
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:04.000
<v Speaker 3>probably would have walked home.

659
00:35:04.519 --> 00:35:06.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is the only case I've seen where someone

660
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:09.880
<v Speaker 1>is invoked their Fifth Amendment while speaking in front of

661
00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:12.000
<v Speaker 1>a parole board. Like people you don't usually do that

662
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:14.519
<v Speaker 1>unless they're speaking with the police or they're on trial

663
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:17.480
<v Speaker 1>on the witness stand. And he's got an opportunity here

664
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:19.920
<v Speaker 1>to be released from prison, and he pretty much decides

665
00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:22.599
<v Speaker 1>to blow that by pleading the fifth which gives me

666
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:25.400
<v Speaker 1>the impression that he really didn't want anyone looking into

667
00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:28.559
<v Speaker 1>these guns, and that makes you start thinking, hmm, could

668
00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:31.199
<v Speaker 1>these have been murder weapons? So I think that about

669
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.440
<v Speaker 1>brings an end to Part one. Join us next week

670
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:35.639
<v Speaker 1>as we present part two of our series about the

671
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:40.480
<v Speaker 1>disappearances of Michael Sullivan and Camden Sylvia Robin, do you.

672
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:42.039
<v Speaker 2>Want to tell us a little bit about the Trail

673
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Went Cold Patreon?

674
00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:46.079
<v Speaker 1>Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

675
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:49.880
<v Speaker 1>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

676
00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:53.360
<v Speaker 1>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

677
00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:56.239
<v Speaker 1>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

678
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:58.800
<v Speaker 1>with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars

679
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:02.960
<v Speaker 1>tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in

680
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:06.119
<v Speaker 1>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

681
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:09.480
<v Speaker 1>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

682
00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:12.280
<v Speaker 1>and if you join our highest tier, Tier three, the

683
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:15.280
<v Speaker 1>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

684
00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:19.639
<v Speaker 1>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsawved Mysteries,

685
00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:22.840
<v Speaker 1>where you can download an audio file and then boot

686
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:26.119
<v Speaker 1>up the original Unsaved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

687
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:29.559
<v Speaker 1>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

688
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:32.679
<v Speaker 1>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

689
00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:36.159
<v Speaker 1>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

690
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:39.000
<v Speaker 1>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

691
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:41.800
<v Speaker 1>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

692
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:44.599
<v Speaker 1>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

693
00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:47.599
<v Speaker 1>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

694
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:48.400
<v Speaker 1>Tier three.

695
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.119
<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

696
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:52.840
<v Speaker 4>about the Jeweles and n Ashy patreons. So there's early

697
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:55.880
<v Speaker 4>ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got

698
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:58.880
<v Speaker 4>our Path Went Chili minis, which are always over an hour,

699
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.119
<v Speaker 4>so they're not very many, but they're just too short

700
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:04.159
<v Speaker 4>to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

701
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:06.760
<v Speaker 4>so we hope you'll check out those patreons will link

702
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:07.880
<v Speaker 4>them in the show notes.

703
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:10.280
<v Speaker 1>So I want to thank you all for listening and

704
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:12.760
<v Speaker 1>any chance you have to share us on social media

705
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:15.800
<v Speaker 1>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

706
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:19.039
<v Speaker 1>You can email us at the Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

707
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:21.920
<v Speaker 1>You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwink. So

708
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:24.639
<v Speaker 1>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

709
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:27.119
<v Speaker 1>trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

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00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:30.480
<v Speaker 2>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy