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Speaker 1: There's always a reason for something to happen. And if

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you have a crisis of faith, then you should dig deep.

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If you are dumped on your ass, you should dig

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deep and to figure out what that is, because you

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know that thing about God is trying to tell you something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, yep. Hey, folks, welcome to the Michael Steel Podcast.

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I'm glad you are here with me in the house.

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As we are officially now in fall, the leads are

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starting the term, the elections are getting close, and the

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conversations are getting a little bit more interesting. And this

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week's conversation will be no different. I'm excited to welcome

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to the table my friend Don Lemon. He has spent

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three decades on local and national TV. He's a trusted

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voice and out there and no more than doing tragic

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times like the Sandy Hook massacre, war torn Europe and

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doing the riots of twenty twenty. Don's voice was one

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that people turn to for insight, information and comfort to

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be honest. Anchoring Don Lemon Tonight on CNN for many

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many years, he was known for not just hard hitting

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interviews with public officials and compassionate dialogues with everyday people,

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but just having fun and showing how these conversations could

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be interesting and thought provoking and challenging but also fun.

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And I've always enjoyed watching him. He now hosts The

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Don Lemon Show, which is streaming on all platforms, and

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he's out with a new memoir which we will get into,

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which was right up my alley I once was lost.

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My Search for God in America. It's out right now.

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I really encourage you to pick up a copy of it.

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It is a sobering read. It is a personal journey,

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and it is one that will ask you to ask

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questions about your own faith journey in this crazy, wacky

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space we call America. So I'm really looking forward to

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having Don join us. You're going to get into the

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conversation with him and me coming up next right here

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on the Michael Steel Podcast. Everybody, welcome to the Michael

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Steel Podcast. So I'm just telling you right up front,

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just if you don't have something in the cup, you

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got thirty seconds, go get it and come back, because

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you're gonna love it. You're gonna love this conversation with

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my man Donald I have. I have been a great

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admirer and fan of his for a long time. Especially

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around New Year's But that's that's another conversation because his

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brother let his hair down and my wife and I,

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I literally would sit on the couch with with a

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bottle champagne and get just as toasty as my boy

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was on TV and love every minute of it. Welcome

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Don Lemon to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting me on. It's good to see you.

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We haven't spoken in a while. And you know what,

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every single day people are like, I miss you. Well,

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they say I miss you in CNA. But you know

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what I missed the most? And I'll say, what New

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Year's New Year's Eve?

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Speaker 2: Nowt you?

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Speaker 3: That was?

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Speaker 1: With the real shows started when you came on. I'm like, because, Michael,

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what are people doing on New Year's Eve? They're getting

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toasty like you and your wife sitting around talking policy

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right now.

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Speaker 2: And we're looking. We're looking to you know, if you're

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at home, if you choose to be at home, or

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you're going to have the TV, or you're going to

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watch the ball come down, you want to watch it

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with someone who's having as much fun as you are, right,

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and so you you you brought that joy every New

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Year's but you also brought an impeccable body of work

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over or seventeen plus years at CNN, the work you're

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doing now, and you have come out with a new book,

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which I had to tell folks just and tell you, honestly,

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I did not expect this book. I did not expect

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this book from you. It was it was deeply personal

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in ways that I thought really refreshing, particularly knowing you

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know some of your backstory and some of the things

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that you've shared over the years on the air. I

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Once Was Lost is a powerful journey of faith which

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I think will catch readers a little bit off guard

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in a very good way. Tell us a little bit

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about your mindset in bringing this story to us now

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and why you thought or even felt compelled if maybe

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too strong a word, but I think it works to

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write this story the way you did.

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Speaker 1: That's a big question, and it's a good one.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It was supposed to be sort of a follow up,

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our coda to my previous book, which came during COVID

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and George Floyd, right, just to follow up on racism,

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because a lot of the racism was rooted in in

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religious doctrines, right, A lot of that ignorance about religious

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doctrines and people using the Bible to not only to

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subjugate women, but to enslave African Americans and so on,

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and I just started to see the apocrisy just increasing

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in our politics, and our politics becoming just flooded and

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infiltrated with religion, and mostly from evangelical sort of radical

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people trying not only trying to blur the line between

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church and state, but really trying to erase that line.

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And I, you know, I've always been a person of faith.

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I don't wear it on my sleeve. It's something that's private.

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If you choose to be a preacher, or you know

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a pastor, or you know someone who wants to go

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out and preach, then that's your business. My faith is

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more personal than that. Now I almost hit my religion

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because I don't, you know, religion is not something that's

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very attractive to me, but faith. And so this book

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was about my love for God, my love for country,

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and how it helped to shape me into the person

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that I am today, and how it helped me to

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fight against the really toxic evangelical teachings that sought to

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marginalize me and other people who are parts of underserved

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communities like women minorities, members of the LGBTQ community and

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so on, And so that was that the mindset and

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you ask about was just truth. I always want to

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be truthful. I always want to inform people. I started

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writing this book in twenty twenty two, before I left

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CNN and before I was fired from CNN, and then

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when I did, I put it down for a summer,

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and when I went back to it was a completely

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different and more personal book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and I can see that. I can see

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that as someone who had I appreciated that you just

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said about that faith journey and what what this moment means.

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When you're sort of taking a step back and looking

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at that journey, then something happens, like you know what

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happened at CNN and all the drama there. Then you

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come back to it and you have a different appreciation

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of what the journey really is, because faith in this instance,

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really tests its own principles as you understand them. You know,

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what is faith? What is it a faith in the

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thing that I'm doing? Is it a faith beyond the

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thing I'm doing? And I know in my journey, which

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is why I identified so much with this book in

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terms of, you know, leaving myself open to a calling

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to become a priest and going into a monastery and

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spending years there and reconciling parts of that journey with

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what's going on in the world and all of that.

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You really you sort of capture all of that right

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at the beginning of the book. And I just want

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to pull up a quick a quote on that. You said,

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I've always understood that faith is something we need, even

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as a cynical world tries to tell us otherwise. The

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world tends to focus on those moments that dump on you,

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dump you on your ass. Faith focuses on the formidable

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arms that sweep you back into the rhythm of love.

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And that theme is something you carry in this book

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in ways I hope people really see because you talk.

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One of the one of the great scenes is you're

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a three year old. You're at church, your mama is

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you're a little bit restless, as little three year old

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boys tend to be more so than girls sometimes, and

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you're you're a little antsy, but she picks you up,

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puts her in your arms. Your grandma, that's what your grandma,

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puts her in your arms, and the Holy Spirit must

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have hit her because she stood up to shout and

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give glory and dumped your ass on the floor. That is.

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But faith is like that. I mean, it's it's that

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sweeping up, all right and holding but it's also that

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moment where you're popped into a new reality, right, Yeah,

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And you talk about that and I think in a

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very expressive way.

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Speaker 3: Well, and that's kind of the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Like, you know, even if you have a crisis of faith,

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and I think we all have had that, which was

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part of the reason that I wrote this after my

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sister died. But you're right because when I thought about,

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you know, what was going on and what was happening

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in my life, that was kind of a metaphor, right,

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somebody dumped you on your ass and then all of

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a sudden, you know, the people sweep in and for me,

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I think for most people it's true, but I know

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for me, there's been a common theme in my life

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that women have have swept me up.

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Speaker 3: And kept me going.

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Speaker 1: Every time I'm out, man, I got to tell you

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the Black Sisters, we missed you on CNN, right, And

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then I'm just I'm joking, but not far off. That's

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kind of what they say, we love everything. Don lemon,

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where are you? How can I get you? And so

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that was I think. I said it was my first

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brush or when my first encounter. I forget the exact

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words I did, but I said with the Holy Ghost

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was sitting on my grandmother's lap and three years old

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at Shiloh Missionary Baptist Church. And I would not have

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remembered this story if my sister didn't tell it so much.

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I laughed about it, but I got my grandmother had

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got the spirit dumped me. I think my head probably

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hit the pew and I hit the floor, and my

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which you know, ran over to pick me up, to

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swoop me up, and then all of these women ran

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over to do the same thing. And I said, they

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sort of they have held me in their ample bosom,

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you know, not in an eird way, but for my

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entire life.

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Speaker 3: And I just.

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Speaker 1: Remember that, and then that's being a theme in my life,

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just how much support I've always had from women. I

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wanted them to know, especially what was going on and

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what was being written about me, and like I need

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to know that this this just ain't true. And so

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there's a reason that this all happened. One I believe

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so that I could be free and independent. The other thing,

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I believe that it was for me to be able

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to write this book, and then the other the next

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thing is that I don't know, but I'm okay with

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not knowing.

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Speaker 3: What that right? Right, God.

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Speaker 1: And the person I served has always taken care of me.

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And if some people may want to call it the universe,

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and I don't believe that my God is going to

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let me down, and so I want people to know

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that and to understand that there's always a reason for

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something to happen. And if you have a crisis of faith,

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then you should dig deep. If you are dumped on

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your ass, you should dig deep and to figure out

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what that is, because you know that thing about God

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is trying to tell you something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, yep. So so you you you have that

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that underpinning and you have the realization of that now

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as a as a grown ass man, I love it

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when you say that at various points, because that's how

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my mom used to talk to me, and that's how

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I talk now when I referred to certain individuals. You

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grown ass man, you should know better, right you note

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as a gay black boy in the deep South, attending

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Baptist churches and Catholic school, I heard homosexuality defined as

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an abomination. When I came to understand the meaning of

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both words and then applied them to myself, I prayed

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as hard as a child could, please, Lord, make me

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not be gay. How did how did that impact your faith? Well,

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you're not just in a god or an institution like

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a church, because that's what you know as a young

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man is a young boy. But as you would get

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older and come to the fullness of appreciating what that

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who that gay black boy is not was? But is

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did that stress test your faith? Well?

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Speaker 3: What does this saying? I hope, I'm not sure. I

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don't get it right.

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Speaker 1: But faith is what the evidence of things that are

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not seen? Right, So if you are going to be

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a person of faith and you're going to believe in

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evidence or things that are not seen, then you have

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to question that.

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Speaker 3: And so as I as I got.

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Speaker 1: Older, like if you if you question question question, which

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is which is what the Bible says that you should do.

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If you question question question, then you'll come to if

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you are really honest with yourself, you'll come to a

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realization about what is and what isn't And as I

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became as a child that faith was magical thinking like

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Santa Claus pray. As a child that way, it was

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like God, please don't do this, God please, you know,

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please take the gay away and whatever. And then you,

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as an adult, you realize with critical thinking, as one

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does when one starts to realize. And I write in

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the book about the realization of Santa Claus. Yeah, as

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you said, your critical thinking starts to develop and then

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you go, oh, okay. I started to realize that the

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interpretation of the Bible and scriptures. And I'm talking about

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Christianity because I am that, but this goes for other

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religions as well. It's all in the interpretation, and people

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can interpret things whatever way that they want, and many

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times they are often wrong. So if someone tells you

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that they have figured that out and they know exactly

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what the Bible means and all the verses mean, then

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then also ask them like, can you hand me a

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grain of salt as well?

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Speaker 3: Right, they don't know. And I also came.

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Speaker 1: To when you asked me, how did it test my

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faith or how did I come to that realization or

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just sort of square that what I realized quite frankly, Michael,

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is that the Bible is not a book of facts.

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Speaker 3: It's not really a book. It's a library.

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Speaker 1: It is mythology, it is allegory, and.

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Speaker 3: It is really lessons.

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Speaker 1: M It's parables as well on how to be a

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better person, how to find God in yourself and other people.

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So we're quite often looking for the image of trying

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to create God in our own image instead of realizing

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that we were created in God's image and sing for

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God and the image of other people, that we get

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so stuck trying to create God in our image, right,

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And so I realize most people are trying to create

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God in their own image instead of looking for God

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and other people. So if you're looking for God and

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other people, then you're not judging. If they're gay, you're

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not judging it, they're trands, you're not judging. If they're black,

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you're not judging. If they're white, you're not judging. If

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they're a woman, you are what accepting them for who

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they are where they.

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Speaker 2: Are, well, isn't isn't that the love your neighbor as yourself.

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Speaker 3: Love your neighbor as yourself, or do unto others?

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Speaker 2: Do unto others.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right, And so as an adult I realized that

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and I said, you know what this is all about

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control and really about the interpretation. You should not be

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judging me, because God says, you know, don't judge, right,

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And so that's how I squared it. And I decided

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that if if, if there is faith, if there is

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a God, if there is religion, and if it's not,

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as James Baldwin says, if we're not using it to

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make us bigger and stronger and more open and more connected,

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then we should get rid of it. So that's all

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critical thinking and an open mind, Michael, and an open mind.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, so so let's let's let's stress test your

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open mind because you are, you are very familiar with

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and have been the subject of some pretty ugly attacks.

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As you know, I think I have you have, I mean,

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particularly as black men who who through their profession and

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their choices and their words, stress test the systems we're in, right,

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I mean, because that's what we do. That's what that's

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what you've done in your media career, is what I've

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done in my political career. How do you reconcile your

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faith then around those attacks? Particularly when they they they

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do come at you personally where they talk about, uh,

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your sexual orientation, the color of your skin, all of

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those things that that define who you are as Don Lemon,

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or define me as Michael Steele. How do you sort

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of put that faith bucket right in front? So you

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put all that in there.

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Speaker 1: Well, I believe that if you're talking about the you know,

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the attacks and all that, I believe the criticism of

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me is often rooted in racism and homophobia. So I

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understand that that goes along with the territory. And I

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also believe that when you know the attacks and people

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saying things about us or writing things about us, or

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having an understanding about us, that's not necessarily true.

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Speaker 3: I think it's nothing.

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Speaker 1: Compared to the folks who bought and died to get

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me here. And so in order for me to sit

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where I'm sitting, or to have whatever platform that is

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that I'm having, I feel that I just I felt

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that I deserved that platform because not only did I

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work for it, but there were others who who worked

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for it for me, and whose shoulders upon which I

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stood and still stand. So I go into it knowing that,

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but I also go into it knowing, Michael, not that

335
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I'm comparing myself, but Jesus was attacked constantly, right, Doctor

336
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King was attacked constantly. Any figure in our history who

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tried to do something good and who has tried to

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have an open mind, any figure has been attacked in

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our history. And so instead of saying, well, why me,

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why me? How do I square this? I say why

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not me? And perhaps that I am a person and

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someone who God has put here to understand that I

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have big things to do, and with those big things

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to do come comes the attacks and the criticism. And

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if I can figure out why, if I dig deep

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enough and I keep asking why, and I keep question,

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then I will figure that out and that will make

348
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me a bigger, better, and stronger representative of my God. Dude,

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that seems really like, you know, sort of pieing this guy,

350
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but that's what I actually believe. And I feel like

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I must keep going. I can never stop. You're going

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to stop me. I'm not going to be defeated, I'm

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not going to fall. I'm just going to keep going

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and whatever that evolves into, that is what it is.

355
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So you know, I face a lot of attacks, as

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do you. But you're still standing and I'm still standing

357
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going and if we have to considering considering our unique

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history as African Americans in this country, there's no way

359
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that we can stop. We would be letting all those

360
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people down, our ancestors if we did that. What and

361
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they had faith, that's what got them through. Even if

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they got them through, have all the passages in it, Yeah,

363
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it's still.

364
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Speaker 2: They Yeah, they had they had a childlike faith.

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Speaker 3: It did they had.

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Speaker 2: I say I say that deliberately because of how you

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write about that. Yeah, you're psychopical of that, but you

368
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have to here's what you have.

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Speaker 1: To remember, and that I someone said the other night,

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and I thought about, like, you know, all of the

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women who had babies in the field, you know they

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they had babies in the field.

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Speaker 2: Yep, we don't.

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Speaker 1: We don't we forget that we tended to or all

375
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the lashes that people got from not doing what the

376
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Master told us to do. All the people who were lynched, right,

377
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and they had faith, but they got through it for us.

378
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So I don't believe that my journey or even my

379
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life is over. Just if when I leave this earth,

380
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I believe that what I say and what I do

381
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here and what this book and what I leave that

382
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that's going to carry on And so whatever the circumstances

383
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are here, these circumstances are not permanent.

384
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Speaker 3: It is what.

385
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Speaker 1: It's how I choose to respond to them because of

386
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my faith. And then who knows what what will happen

387
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in the future. Who knows how God is going to

388
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use this book or my other books or my work,

389
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or what something that I've said, or how He's going

390
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to use me in the future. And so that's my

391
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childlike faith that I believe will carry me through.

392
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Speaker 3: And to all of this.

393
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Speaker 2: But it's not a submissive criticism. It's not. It's not

394
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it's not it's not a submissive acceptance. How how does

395
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how does that work for you? Because when Christ Christ

396
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often times in both parables and in conversations with his apostles,

397
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refers to children and and and the innocence of children.

398
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That's that for me is always a very compelling aspect

399
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of faith, is there is an innocence, not in a

400
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sense of being naive or gullible or you know, even

401
00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:14,000
even submissive to the point of losing one's identity, but

402
00:23:14,079 --> 00:23:19,440
it's more of a giving oneself over completely and and

403
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:24,240
and saying I am like that clay, that piece of

404
00:23:24,279 --> 00:23:29,559
clay shape me, mold me into being that better person.

405
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And that that is for me a big part of

406
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the faith journey. It's an everyday shaping of of the

407
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of the gospel teachings into my skin, into my being,

408
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and then having that expressed through what you see in

409
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the Catholic Church. One of the things I learned very

410
00:23:53,799 --> 00:23:59,240
early in my seminary training was a dying to self

411
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because it ain't about you.

412
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Speaker 3: You're reading my mind, right, it.

413
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Speaker 2: Ain't about you. So the first thing you got to

414
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learn in order for you to be a faithful servant

415
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,359
for others is you have to die to oneself. Let

416
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me shape you, let me help you be that. And

417
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that faith is trusting in God doing that.

418
00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: So as you're sitting here saying that, I just you know,

419
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,200
as thinking about this one is you were talking about children,

420
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and that's children who's kind of pure, right, They're just yeah, right,

421
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,880
because they don't have they haven't absorbed all the toxicity.

422
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,319
I believe there are two points when we're closest to

423
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,400
the source, and that's when we're children and then when

424
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,440
we're old, right, just coming out of wherever where you

425
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:51,279
just have to trust where you are, not thinking, you're

426
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:56,400
just trusting the processes it. Right, you're born, someone's going

427
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,559
to take care of you. Eventually you're going to get

428
00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:00,359
to a place where you can take care of yourself off.

429
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,119
And then there's everything that happens in the middle. Right

430
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,880
the end, you end up having to have that sort

431
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,839
of that same faith, right the natural sort of progression.

432
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 3: Of you know, how long am I going to be

433
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:10,920
with it?

434
00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:12,799
Speaker 1: Or I'm about to leave and I'm going to be

435
00:25:12,799 --> 00:25:15,880
closer to the source again. I believe that when you

436
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,079
you know, when you talk about that childlife thing, that's

437
00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:21,960
when we're really that's when we're at our most pure

438
00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:25,599
as it relates to just having faith in the whole

439
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:31,599
process of God and life. And so you know, I'm

440
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,160
kind of in the middle now. People tend to overthink things,

441
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,640
and you keep praying, make me closer to you, make

442
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,960
me do this when we this is a part where

443
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,640
we should be the smartest and realized, well, look look

444
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,480
at where I came from where I am, and then look,

445
00:25:47,559 --> 00:25:51,079
you know, think about where you're going. And so right now,

446
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,759
right when you're sort of in the middle where you

447
00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:54,880
and I are and where most people are.

448
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 3: This is where we should be most faithful with.

449
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Speaker 1: An awareness, because in those other times we were most faithful,

450
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we did not have an awareness at all.

451
00:26:05,039 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 2: Do you understand what I'm I got you know, I'm

452
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,160
I'm I'm vibing all the way with you. No, I

453
00:26:09,559 --> 00:26:11,000
get it, I get it.

454
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Speaker 1: And so so this is the part where we should

455
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just be where we should We should be happy and

456
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,640
mindful in the awareness that we have because we didn't

457
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,279
have it as a child, and we're probably not going

458
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to have.

459
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Speaker 3: It as we get older.

460
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Speaker 1: We'll have it as we get older, but when you know,

461
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when the process we tend when we're going on.

462
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Speaker 2: To Yeah, but in that but in that so what

463
00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:38,279
you what you're talking about, there's a there's a bookend

464
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if you want to look at it. In that framing,

465
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it is is as a as a child, a baby,

466
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an infant, a toddler, even even as a you know,

467
00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:53,319
a grade schooler. There is there is that innocence, that

468
00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:57,039
that that faith in our parents and and those that

469
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,279
love us like you, Like we were talking a little

470
00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:03,359
bit before, your mother who took you up in her arms,

471
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,440
in her bosom when you were restless, and you felt

472
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,839
comfortable and safe there, and you had you had faith

473
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,839
to use that word in that moment of protection. And

474
00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:16,599
then all of a sudden, she's stood up and through

475
00:27:16,599 --> 00:27:18,400
your ass on the floor. And then you were like, Grandma,

476
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:19,240
what the hell are you doing?

477
00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:19,559
Speaker 3: Right?

478
00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:27,799
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know about Grandma today, because but you

479
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,119
had others who then came to you to help rite

480
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,720
in those moments. Same is true at this at that

481
00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:37,759
other book end in your life where and I saw

482
00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:42,000
this with my mom in her ninety sixth year, as

483
00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:46,960
she was as she had gone through that transition, and

484
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,000
her faith in God firm, but also her faith in

485
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:53,960
us to care for her and to help her and

486
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,440
to be there for her and to to sort of

487
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:03,480
give herself over in that in that sense to her

488
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,440
to her last moments last year. And so that that

489
00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:09,839
was a very stark moment, And to be honest, I'm

490
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:16,200
still wrapping my head around that and the emotions that

491
00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:22,440
go with that, because God has ways of testing our

492
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,000
faith not just in Him, but in each other and

493
00:28:27,319 --> 00:28:30,519
in the very things we claim that we believe and

494
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:38,720
the way we claim we define ourselves. And these moments,

495
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,480
whether it is the loss of your sister, the loss

496
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,079
of my mother last year. Those are moments where all

497
00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:49,240
of that is put in front of you and go, okay, really, okay,

498
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,559
tell me something, Tell me something now, talk to me

499
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,720
now right, tell me what you feel, and now tell

500
00:28:55,759 --> 00:28:58,920
me what you think you know now. And that's a

501
00:28:59,039 --> 00:29:04,039
very powerful lesson if we're open to learning it. But

502
00:29:04,119 --> 00:29:06,839
a lot of people aren't. And I'm gonna I want

503
00:29:06,839 --> 00:29:10,799
to get into that because you, as we started the conversation,

504
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,880
you noted this was a book about a lot of things, obviously,

505
00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:21,359
but it's also about politics and how our faith gets

506
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,880
distorted and used against us by others. So I want

507
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,039
to get into that a little bit. Donald Lemon has

508
00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:32,279
a new book out. I'm urging everyone to get it.

509
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,160
I once was lost, My Search for God in America.

510
00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:40,440
It is out now, it is It is a comfortable read.

511
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,559
I like the way you talk in this book. I

512
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,839
like the way you express an idea and thought in

513
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,519
this book is like you're sitting here across from me

514
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,440
doing it when I'm holding the book. So I really

515
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,519
appreciate that you will too, Folks. We're going to take

516
00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:58,559
a quick break more with donal Leman right after this

517
00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:02,920
Welcome back every to Michael Steel Podcast. The book is

518
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,559
I Once Was Lost, My Search for God in America.

519
00:30:05,759 --> 00:30:09,759
The author is the incomparable Don Lemon. You've known him

520
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,240
for his many years on CNN. You've had a few

521
00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:17,680
after parties with him on New Year's for sure. But

522
00:30:17,799 --> 00:30:23,160
he's written, I think, a very special book. And I

523
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,960
want to switch gears a little bit now that we've

524
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,640
sort of covered the sort of faith journey part of

525
00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:37,920
the narrative and in turn to what happens when I

526
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,759
call it people losing faith. In fact, you note it

527
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:45,680
at one point and I highlighted, See I got to

528
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,640
go to my highlight in the book here real quick

529
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:55,960
where you talk about the faith that people have and

530
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,200
you used Abraham. Talk to me about Abraham.

531
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: Oh, you're talking about going up to the mountains.

532
00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: Going up to the mountain. I've always and the reason,

533
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,480
the reason when I read that that section of the book,

534
00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:15,000
I literally had to pause a little bit because I

535
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,720
have that has been the Abraham sacrificing of his son

536
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,960
at the at the command of God as the quintessential

537
00:31:28,079 --> 00:31:32,480
ultimate test of faith. You threw some cold water on that.

538
00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: Yes, I got Mullach and the folks and still standing.

539
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,400
But I think that he had a faith right that

540
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,480
when he that he they could either do with mullak

541
00:31:43,599 --> 00:31:45,880
right they Abraham, did you know?

542
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:46,799
Speaker 3: The long story short?

543
00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:48,359
Speaker 1: He goes up and it's supposed to be the ram

544
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,240
and whatever and the sacrifice on the top of the mountain.

545
00:31:50,279 --> 00:31:53,039
He gets there and there's already a sacrificial lamb already

546
00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:56,200
up there, so he doesn't sacrifice his son. So I,

547
00:31:56,359 --> 00:31:59,079
you know, I don't know if I throw cold water

548
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,079
on it. I'm interested to you know why. But I

549
00:32:02,119 --> 00:32:03,920
just have a kind of turn on things. And I

550
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,799
think it's all in the interpretation. I think that he

551
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,599
knew what I write in there. He knew that there

552
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,759
was that he had faith that there was going to

553
00:32:12,839 --> 00:32:16,400
be already a sacrificial lamb atop that mountain, and he

554
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:17,920
wasn't going to have to do it. And he came

555
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,559
down with his son and changed the minds of everyone

556
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,319
to you know, who had thought and who were in

557
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,799
fear that they were going to have to do the

558
00:32:27,839 --> 00:32:31,599
same thing. That right, and that was sacrificed their own child.

559
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,759
But I think that whole sacrificing their own child was

560
00:32:34,799 --> 00:32:36,640
a misinterpretation.

561
00:32:37,359 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 3: Of God's teaching.

562
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,279
Speaker 1: Okay, talk to me why, because because again I think

563
00:32:43,279 --> 00:32:46,359
it's parable, and I don't. I don't believe that. I

564
00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:50,319
think everybody takes things literally, right, And he said, well,

565
00:32:50,359 --> 00:32:52,920
it's all in your interpretation, but it's also all in

566
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,960
your faith and of what you believe in. So if

567
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,440
you're literally interpreting that you got to go up there

568
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,640
and you got to you know, sacrifice her child, then no,

569
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:06,240
but there are certain things that you have to sacrifice

570
00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:08,119
and certain things that you have to do in life

571
00:33:08,839 --> 00:33:11,440
in order to be a follower and a believer, right

572
00:33:11,799 --> 00:33:14,519
and so and and some of those things are just tests,

573
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,319
but they're not actual literal tests where you do you

574
00:33:19,359 --> 00:33:23,000
know exactly what they're writing in the book?

575
00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:23,759
Speaker 2: Right?

576
00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 3: And especially look, I also turned the whole raculate conception

577
00:33:29,319 --> 00:33:30,079
on its head as well.

578
00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:36,319
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, okay, it just couldn't be that Joseph with

579
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,039
this was this nice guy, and this woman got pregnant

580
00:33:39,079 --> 00:33:41,279
and she marin and so he was trying to take

581
00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:42,960
her out of town so that she wouldn't because you

582
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,880
would be killed or you could be stone. Then, so

583
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,519
it wasn't just enough that Joseph was doing this sort

584
00:33:48,559 --> 00:33:53,960
of beneficent thing that they had to make it into

585
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,759
a whole thing, and they had to turn it into

586
00:33:55,799 --> 00:34:00,440
like a virgin sacrifice. Look, it's so funny, you know,

587
00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:02,920
they say. The truth is often spoken in jest. There's

588
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,000
a comedian who said, and I was just listening to

589
00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:09,000
it last night, and he said, you know, the Bible

590
00:34:09,079 --> 00:34:13,599
talks about people talking about things being unreal and what

591
00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:15,400
and then he went on and whatever.

592
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 3: I forget the exact way he said.

593
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: And he goes, you know, you think it's unreal that

594
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,400
that somebody said something about something and this is unreal.

595
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,320
And then he goes, oh, but you actually believe that

596
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:35,880
somebody got pregnant without you know, doing the deed, or

597
00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:40,599
you know that it was just funny things that we

598
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:45,000
don't know. And I get, I get sorry, maybe I

599
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,159
didn't tell the story right.

600
00:34:46,039 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 3: But you know what I'm saying, I don't.

601
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 2: Just say no, I know, just saying and I think,

602
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,320
but what it goes to is it really kind of

603
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,440
goes into this whole space of what we are called

604
00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:04,199
on to believe. That sets up the whole narrative about faith.

605
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:13,480
Uh maybe maybe the immaculate conception of Mary and the

606
00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:20,239
immaculate uh, you know, the the impregnation of her by

607
00:35:20,679 --> 00:35:24,880
because the immaculate conception is her conception without sin. And

608
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,840
then of course there is the you know, her being

609
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:34,639
able to conceive Jesus. Those things are arcs of belief,

610
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,079
and maybe maybe that it's it's not so much a

611
00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:44,039
literal thing, but the idea speaks to the power of

612
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:44,960
a loving.

613
00:35:44,679 --> 00:35:48,159
Speaker 1: God and get you back to a loving God. But

614
00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:52,679
but a loving, humane person to me. You know, think

615
00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:53,679
about what Joseph, cause.

616
00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 2: The story is really about more about Joseph than than

617
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,480
than anything. People lose sight of poor little Joseph.

618
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: Yes, Joseph was doing this really great thing. And look,

619
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,039
I hypothesize something in there that I won't shit. I'll

620
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:08,199
wait for the audience. I'll wait for the reader to

621
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,440
figure it out. But I also hypothesize something about Joseph.

622
00:36:11,559 --> 00:36:12,599
And you know, people were.

623
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,639
Speaker 3: Like, oh, I can't believe say that. But you know,

624
00:36:15,079 --> 00:36:18,840
come on, let's be real. Should I tell him what

625
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,320
I said?

626
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead, No, I think I think it's I say, well,

627
00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:24,480
maybe Joseph was you know, this sort of gay guy

628
00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:31,000
who said, uh, this woman, I pick yourself above the floor, right.

629
00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:33,480
I don't want her to die or be stoned to

630
00:36:33,519 --> 00:36:36,880
death or whatever because she, you know, got pregnant and she's.

631
00:36:36,639 --> 00:36:39,159
Speaker 3: Not married, and then you know, I am not married

632
00:36:39,159 --> 00:36:40,840
and whatever. So okay, this.

633
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,159
Speaker 2: Is kind of perfect because he was an older gentleman,

634
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:44,159
unmarried gentleman.

635
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 3: Yes, and so it's kind of perfect.

636
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,119
Speaker 1: And so he took her out of her town and

637
00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:50,599
took her to Bethlehem and Nate.

638
00:36:50,559 --> 00:36:52,079
Speaker 2: And he got out of that town too.

639
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,039
Speaker 3: I'm just saying.

640
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,519
Speaker 1: So it wasn't, like I say, it wasn't just enough

641
00:36:58,599 --> 00:37:01,119
that this story could be about that he's a good

642
00:37:01,119 --> 00:37:03,280
guy and that he's actually helping out this woman, right,

643
00:37:03,599 --> 00:37:05,280
all of this stuff around it. But also if you

644
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,480
look at the Bible, I think the Bible is one

645
00:37:07,519 --> 00:37:09,639
of the most interesting. I think it's the most interesting

646
00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:12,719
book that has ever written. I agree Dynasy in the

647
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:21,239
eighties that has nothing on the Bible, right, right, I

648
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,519
think that you know, it's there to make us interested, right,

649
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:29,480
to make us think, But it is good people, better humans.

650
00:37:29,679 --> 00:37:32,199
Speaker 2: It's an instruction manual. I like the way you described

651
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,440
it at the beginning, but it really is an instruction

652
00:37:34,639 --> 00:37:42,239
manual for humanity. And look, the Old Testament was all

653
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,199
about the rules and regulations, right to be, to be

654
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,239
a better to become a better person, to become a

655
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:55,920
God fearing individual. The New Testament is about, okay, how

656
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,519
how we change up the game and how we you know,

657
00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:02,039
we go from an eye for an eye to turn

658
00:38:02,079 --> 00:38:07,199
the other cheek. We go from you know, you know, loving,

659
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,480
you know, honoring you know God, to loving and honoring

660
00:38:11,599 --> 00:38:14,079
each other, you know, to do unto others as you

661
00:38:14,079 --> 00:38:17,239
would have them do unto you, and to all these

662
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:22,599
things that that sort of contradictory, that are contradictory and

663
00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:27,760
yet improve upon our humanity. And so when you go

664
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,559
back to Abraham, which for me was always a compelling

665
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:37,239
story because I remember when my son was born, asking myself,

666
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,119
if God asked me to do something like that, would

667
00:38:42,159 --> 00:38:46,360
I do it? Could I do it? And I realized

668
00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:50,559
a lot about that story particularly, and I'm glad because

669
00:38:50,559 --> 00:38:56,519
you point this out in very specific terms, that there

670
00:38:56,639 --> 00:39:01,519
was a Ram there to be sacrificed. I've always taken

671
00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:06,840
that as Christ. I've always taken that that the ultimate

672
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,280
sacrifice was Christ himself. And so we are called into

673
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:17,360
that moment where our faith is tested, and then what

674
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,599
we what we realized that Christ is there, that that's

675
00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:23,840
the sacrifice and so it was for me, it was

676
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,519
this real interesting the way you set that narrative in place,

677
00:39:28,119 --> 00:39:31,920
the way you tell the story sort of in a different,

678
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,920
different interpretation about Joseph.

679
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: Go ahead, but let me ask you, and I don't

680
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,440
know if I did this. I don't think I did

681
00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:41,280
this in the book, and I should have. Is that

682
00:39:41,679 --> 00:39:45,159
perhaps the thing is why would God ask you to sacrifice?

683
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:49,639
Speaker 3: You write the why in that why would why is that?

684
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,639
Speaker 1: And then when after the why, then you can sort

685
00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:55,840
of figure out, like you know, how it plays out

686
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,159
in the Bible and why it's written the way it's written.

687
00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 3: But why would God ask you to do that?

688
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:01,119
Speaker 2: Right?

689
00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:03,119
Speaker 1: That's the thing I kept questioning while I was writing

690
00:40:03,159 --> 00:40:05,760
this book, and then after my sister died, and even

691
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,320
trying to figure out why politics were infecting our faith

692
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,760
or religion. It's the why, right, why want us to

693
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:15,119
do that?

694
00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:17,039
Speaker 3: Why was he? Why is he testing us? Why are

695
00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:18,639
you doing this? Why is he testing us? What does

696
00:40:18,639 --> 00:40:21,480
he want? And not exactly in the literal.

697
00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: Meaning of you go up, you sacrifice your child, you

698
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,280
come back down from the mountain.

699
00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 2: That's not it, right, It's not it no, that's not

700
00:40:31,079 --> 00:40:36,800
it no, because because we do that all the time.

701
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: Right right, Also in the you can't eat bacon, then

702
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,159
you can't eat shellfish, And it's like people get so

703
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,719
stuck in the actual literal thing instead of the why

704
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:47,599
what does this mean?

705
00:40:48,199 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 3: Not that it's a law?

706
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,599
Speaker 2: Right, so you turn So you turn the page on

707
00:40:53,679 --> 00:40:57,360
that and move us in the conversation when you you

708
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,639
make the point. In the evangelical world, resistance to change

709
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:05,719
is cast as steadfast blind acceptance of obsolete dogma is

710
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,719
praised as childlike faith. And that's the distortion. That's the disruption.

711
00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:14,360
I think in a lot of respects. And you you talk,

712
00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:20,039
you reference our buddy Tim Alberta in his book, which

713
00:41:20,039 --> 00:41:23,960
I love his work in this space, Uh, you know

714
00:41:24,039 --> 00:41:28,639
the kingdom, power and the glory where we have just

715
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:34,559
today in this modern era, our politics having and this

716
00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:39,639
is the way I would interpret it. Our politics once

717
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:47,079
reflected our values, faith, traditions, religion, et cetera, are are

718
00:41:47,599 --> 00:41:50,800
our culture. You know who we were as a nation,

719
00:41:51,119 --> 00:41:55,519
right and all the struggles that came with that, and

720
00:41:55,519 --> 00:42:00,000
and you know we would we would identify ourselves through

721
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:03,159
those things, and that would be reflected back through public

722
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,239
policy and and and our politics today it seems like

723
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:12,360
our politics has infected our faith journey, where now we

724
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,079
we we value our political alliances more than the teachings

725
00:42:17,079 --> 00:42:20,440
of the Gospel, and that we are so lost that

726
00:42:20,519 --> 00:42:26,559
we will actually create a graving uh and and false

727
00:42:26,679 --> 00:42:29,559
image of God in the in the form of Donald

728
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:32,519
Trump as savior as Moses.

729
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: But think about this when you talk when because I

730
00:42:35,519 --> 00:42:37,400
write about guns and there are other things that I

731
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:38,000
write about.

732
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 2: The Yes, that's why I was getting to go there

733
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,440
onuns have become a religion, yes right, And then we

734
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:48,000
we we turn things, as you said, our our political

735
00:42:48,079 --> 00:42:53,679
ideologies into gods when so so I believe, and that

736
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,920
comes from really I think a lot from evangelicals and

737
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,440
the influence that they have on politics.

738
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: And I think that that's of that those toxic teachings

739
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,199
are turning everything into a religion like guns, and that

740
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,039
people get so steadfast and so strident in their beliefs

741
00:43:09,039 --> 00:43:11,960
and their ideology. I think that that is that is

742
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,960
pushing us towards a theocracy, and that theocracy is not

743
00:43:16,039 --> 00:43:20,760
only pushing us further away from religion or God right,

744
00:43:21,119 --> 00:43:25,360
pushing us further away from democracy right, And that is

745
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,840
the erasing of the line between Church and State, and

746
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,599
even in the you know, the the Abraham thing, there's

747
00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:35,159
a lesson lesson in it for us right now. What's

748
00:43:35,159 --> 00:43:38,639
happening now, and that is what are we willing to

749
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:44,400
sacrifice in order to have such literal, concrete interpretation of

750
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:45,719
our own ideologies.

751
00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 2: I put it after the most recent shooting. I put

752
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:55,079
it this way on air, and exactly to your point.

753
00:43:55,119 --> 00:43:58,760
I said, we are we have now occupied the space

754
00:43:59,519 --> 00:44:03,239
that we value in AR fifteen more than we value

755
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:04,760
the life of a six year old child.

756
00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:05,559
Speaker 1: M hm.

757
00:44:06,199 --> 00:44:06,639
Speaker 3: That's true.

758
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:09,639
Speaker 2: We will, we will, we will, we will burn the

759
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,679
country down to save that our that AR sixteen, through

760
00:44:14,679 --> 00:44:16,679
our through the second Amendment in the Constitution.

761
00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:19,199
Speaker 3: Are you really saving an AR fifteen, are you?

762
00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: Or is it that something else that's within you that

763
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,679
you're saving your Are you saving the actual physical ownership

764
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,559
of a gun? Yes, I would say in one way.

765
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,880
But I think it's also treating the Bible, treating the

766
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,360
Constitution as if it's the Bible, and the Bible as

767
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:35,239
if it's the Constitution.

768
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,039
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, right right, And and it becomes

769
00:44:39,079 --> 00:44:44,320
this literal, literal thing that you value more than anything

770
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,960
else and therefore interpret everything else through that. Yes, And

771
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:54,760
and that's that's the poison that I see permeating certainly

772
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,960
throughout my political party that has that it has strung

773
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,360
buggled against not just in the recent era of the

774
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,599
twenty this twenty first century, but it goes back to

775
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:15,880
the very early days of the twentieth century, where they're this,

776
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:22,880
this alliance is formed, that that there's a political advantage

777
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,559
born out of it that corrupts. And so I saw

778
00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:32,719
it certainly in the mid eighties when Reagan cut his

779
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,760
bargain with the with the moral majority to secure his

780
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,039
political book.

781
00:45:37,159 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 1: It's the it's the heritage foundation. Yeah, Pat Robinson's of

782
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:49,159
the World, was it? Roberts Robertson, Pett Robertson, Robertson.

783
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 3: M Yeah. And so you're you're right about that.

784
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,119
Speaker 1: But also when you said that the twentieth century the beginning,

785
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,480
remember I write in the book about manifest destiny, where

786
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:56,760
all this.

787
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,320
Speaker 3: You know, just say, look we we are this is

788
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:01,840
a cree.

789
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: That all of us, that Christians have dominion over all

790
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,440
of America. And you're like, wait, the Native Americans are like, wait,

791
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,760
what right?

792
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,599
Speaker 3: Because God deemed it so, and we said.

793
00:46:14,679 --> 00:46:16,559
Speaker 2: White man speaks funny, what what do you?

794
00:46:18,559 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 3: And look where we are now?

795
00:46:20,199 --> 00:46:24,159
Speaker 2: Yes, look where we are now? Well, and that was illustrated.

796
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,960
I love the scene in the book with Ted. I

797
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,840
love that scene because it was really illustrative of of

798
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:38,079
what of what has always been a part of the

799
00:46:38,519 --> 00:46:46,559
American narrative, that aspect of our faith journey with Ted. Yes,

800
00:46:46,639 --> 00:46:50,239
in the Ted yeah the guy the where the when

801
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:55,880
you were walking down Fifth Avenue or Park Avenue with Oh, yeah.

802
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: Tim, you know you know what I forget because it's Ted.

803
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:03,400
It's Ted, huh And we both know this gentleman. And

804
00:47:03,679 --> 00:47:05,360
maybe I'll tell you afterwards who it was.

805
00:47:05,559 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so yeah, So to set the scene for this,

806
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:18,000
it's really you were talking about walking down Park Avenue

807
00:47:20,199 --> 00:47:22,039
and you were telling you started about talking about when

808
00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:24,559
you and Tim are out together, how you're treated versus

809
00:47:24,559 --> 00:47:27,719
how he's treated, How you're treated when you're walking your

810
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,599
dogs versus how he's treated when he's walking the dogs.

811
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,840
How how when you're when you're at dinner together, the

812
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,039
waiter will come up and give you the check because

813
00:47:38,079 --> 00:47:39,960
of course the white man is the only one paying

814
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:40,280
this man.

815
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 3: But if I have a suit on there just like oh,

816
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,039
you're the guy usually, but.

817
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,159
Speaker 1: If I don't, I'm like wearing a baseball cap or whatever.

818
00:47:45,159 --> 00:47:47,199
I'm like, all right, come on right exactly.

819
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 2: So there you go on. You talk about uh, running

820
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,559
into walking down the street and running into this individual

821
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:03,639
whom you will call ted, and you talk about as

822
00:48:03,679 --> 00:48:10,000
you were approaching him, you you he obviously didn't recognize you. You go, hey,

823
00:48:10,199 --> 00:48:16,480
it's Don Lemon, and he's like, oh oh, oh, oh Don,

824
00:48:16,639 --> 00:48:19,880
oh my god, I'm so sorry. It's cold. So you know,

825
00:48:20,119 --> 00:48:21,840
you know, you like you say it's cold, I have

826
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,000
my hood on, so I guess I'm scaring people, right.

827
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,599
Speaker 1: That's what she always fall back on that because you

828
00:48:27,679 --> 00:48:29,480
got to do something because it's so awkward.

829
00:48:29,599 --> 00:48:31,639
Speaker 2: Usually you know it's such but you go on in

830
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:36,719
that moment and you talk about how you know, but

831
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,400
for your saying, hey it's Don Lemon. He saw this

832
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,880
black man coming towards him with a hood on and

833
00:48:44,159 --> 00:48:45,920
you say hey, and he was like.

834
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 1: Not now, he said no, thank you, no, thank you.

835
00:48:51,599 --> 00:48:53,280
That's right, as if I was.

836
00:48:53,559 --> 00:48:57,760
Speaker 2: A panhandler or someone. And it's just it's such a

837
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,960
real expressive expressive moment because you go on and you

838
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:05,519
talk about, you know, quote, why am I apologizing for

839
00:49:05,679 --> 00:49:08,559
keeping my ears warm. I got my hoodie on, right.

840
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,880
Why should I feel compelled to demonstrate how non threatening

841
00:49:13,039 --> 00:49:16,639
I am? That compulsion runs deep for every black man.

842
00:49:16,679 --> 00:49:18,960
I know. It doesn't matter if you're wearing a twelve

843
00:49:19,039 --> 00:49:22,039
hundred dollars hoodie walking on Park Avenue with three little

844
00:49:22,079 --> 00:49:24,719
dogs who look about as menacing as a Trio birthday

845
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:30,079
party balloon poodles. Ted's briefly startled reaction wasn't quantifiable as

846
00:49:30,159 --> 00:49:35,639
traumatic in and of itself, But racial trauma is cumulative.

847
00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:39,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know what we think that we are.

848
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: We think that we're used to it until it happens, right,

849
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,400
and then we make up all the excuses because it

850
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:48,480
happens to us so much.

851
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:49,679
Speaker 3: But am I used to it?

852
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 2: No?

853
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,599
Speaker 1: I think it startled him more than it did me, right,

854
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:57,199
And I think because I have experience with it, I

855
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,599
was able to, you know, get passed the awkwardness.

856
00:50:02,039 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 2: But you can make him less uncomfortable.

857
00:50:04,679 --> 00:50:05,760
Speaker 3: Yes, and why am I doing that?

858
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:07,079
Speaker 2: But hey, why are you doing that?

859
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:07,760
Speaker 3: Yes?

860
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,079
Speaker 1: We both knew what was happening in the moment, and

861
00:50:11,519 --> 00:50:13,039
like sorry, And then he asked me what I was

862
00:50:13,039 --> 00:50:14,360
doing and I said, I'm writing a book, and he

863
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:15,400
said I'm what and I said God.

864
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:21,639
Speaker 3: He's like doubly, like, wait, what are you? And I

865
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,320
just remember when I got back to the.

866
00:50:24,119 --> 00:50:25,280
Speaker 2: Yo ask going to be in it.

867
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,199
Speaker 3: No, I didn't think about it. I didn't even think

868
00:50:29,199 --> 00:50:29,519
about it.

869
00:50:29,559 --> 00:50:32,199
Speaker 1: And the thing is is that he probably would not

870
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,440
have been into it in the book had I not

871
00:50:35,519 --> 00:50:39,320
been on the phone with the book collaborator, right. And

872
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,280
I was walking and she's like, you know, I got

873
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,480
your notes. You want to go through some of the

874
00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:45,360
stuff that you sent me and let's talk about him

875
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:47,239
where you should place it in blah blah blah. And

876
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,840
I'm talking and I'm walking the dogs and I'm like whatever.

877
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,039
And then she hears all of this and records it

878
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,440
going on. And when he walked away, I went back

879
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,119
to the thing, saying, okay, so maybe I think we

880
00:50:59,119 --> 00:51:00,440
should do this, and then put the chapter.

881
00:51:00,559 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 3: She goes, wait, hold on, what just happened? You talk

882
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:05,280
about that?

883
00:51:06,199 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 1: And for me, I was just like, oh, well, this

884
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:09,880
should happens all the time, So I didn't even think

885
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:10,519
it was a thing.

886
00:51:11,599 --> 00:51:13,599
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. I

887
00:51:13,639 --> 00:51:14,960
do very much know what you mean.

888
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:16,559
Speaker 1: And then I got back to the hotel. And I

889
00:51:16,599 --> 00:51:19,840
didn't realize that My fiance then husband now said so

890
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:25,000
much for that that uh Bruno Cucinelli sweater that you're

891
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,639
so hi, I'm buying from Burgdorfs, And I'm like yeah,

892
00:51:28,639 --> 00:51:31,039
And I realized, like this, you know this. People think

893
00:51:31,079 --> 00:51:34,760
that money and uh, your position or whatever protects you

894
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:35,400
from racism.

895
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 2: Doesn't.

896
00:51:36,079 --> 00:51:40,159
Speaker 1: It doesn't does not having those experiences. It may offer you,

897
00:51:40,159 --> 00:51:42,440
you know, a bit of cushion because you know what

898
00:51:42,519 --> 00:51:44,760
I'm saying, but it doesn't protect you from it.

899
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 3: It's everywhere. I forgot about that.

900
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,119
Speaker 2: That was It was a great scene in the book,

901
00:51:50,519 --> 00:51:55,159
and it does speak a lot to certainly for someone

902
00:51:55,199 --> 00:51:58,639
like myself. I mean, I'm much older than you are, and.

903
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,280
Speaker 3: You're not, Michael, You're not that much older than me.

904
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:02,880
You think.

905
00:52:07,519 --> 00:52:09,760
Speaker 1: Everybody just thinks I'm twelve because I've had so much

906
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:10,679
plastic surgery.

907
00:52:12,639 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 3: I have not had.

908
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 2: Look, you haven't gotten the cat eyes yet, so that's

909
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,239
good stuff. You got a good surgeon.

910
00:52:17,519 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 3: I haven't gotten anything yet. But everything works. Forehead still works,

911
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:20,639
all that.

912
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: But I think that you know, I don't want people

913
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,559
because you know that'll be in the New York Post.

914
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:30,280
Speaker 2: Of course, of course, right, two Black men discussing their

915
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:37,599
cosmetic surgery. So, what What's God's plan next for you? You?

916
00:52:37,599 --> 00:52:42,360
You've you've put you've put on put on paper. I

917
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:47,079
think a journey that was well worth worth telling, and

918
00:52:47,159 --> 00:52:52,480
it is a faith journey in all respects. And you've

919
00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:57,400
you've weathered a lot of changes recently, uh in in

920
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,119
your life. And as you know, at one point, you know,

921
00:53:01,559 --> 00:53:05,559
you were at this spot where it was all kind

922
00:53:05,559 --> 00:53:08,480
of clicking and working, and then all of a sudden

923
00:53:08,519 --> 00:53:11,719
it wasn't. And we've all been in that space and

924
00:53:12,639 --> 00:53:17,960
to the point the story of Ted for African Americans,

925
00:53:19,159 --> 00:53:25,480
that disruption oftentimes leads to a deep fall because we

926
00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:28,360
don't have a lot of ladders around us that as

927
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,239
we're falling we can grab a wrung and hold on

928
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,440
and start to pull ourselves back up. It tends to.

929
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,559
Speaker 3: Be following that the right has yes, right.

930
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 2: But the one thing that has always and you've referred

931
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,320
to this already, the one thing that has sustained our

932
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:49,599
journey from sixteen nineteen to the present day, has been faith.

933
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,079
What So, what do you think God's plan for you

934
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,400
as you as you consider your faith in the journey

935
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,920
you're on what do you think's next? How do you

936
00:54:00,079 --> 00:54:01,400
see that playing out?

937
00:54:01,639 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: I think I would be defying what I think my

938
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,039
faith is if I had if I tried to tell

939
00:54:07,039 --> 00:54:08,920
you what I think God's plan is for me, because

940
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:09,880
right now we don't know.

941
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,679
Speaker 3: Yeah. Point of having faith, and so.

942
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 1: Wherever I am, I enjoy it and I think that

943
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,599
God's plan for me now is right here, and then

944
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:22,320
I'll fit.

945
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 3: The next thing will come.

946
00:54:24,039 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 1: But I have to tell you, you know, as I write

947
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,360
about all of these things about you know, dealing with

948
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,800
the depression that comes after you know, getting fired or whatever.

949
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,320
Nothing that that I didn't overcome, but just having an

950
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:37,519
awareness of those things.

951
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,519
Speaker 3: If I had not been for this faith that I have.

952
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be here. Yeah, right, I wouldn't be here

953
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:44,719
talking to you. I'm not saying that I would be

954
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,000
gone from the earth. That is a possibility, especially if

955
00:54:48,039 --> 00:54:50,000
you let your depression overcome you.

956
00:54:50,159 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 2: Right.

957
00:54:50,679 --> 00:54:52,519
Speaker 1: It's a loved one. And by the way, I'm sorry

958
00:54:53,559 --> 00:54:54,519
for the loss of your mom.

959
00:54:54,599 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 2: No, I appreciate that.

960
00:54:55,679 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, if I had let the grief and the depression

961
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,039
overcome me, you know, when my sister died or which

962
00:55:03,079 --> 00:55:06,000
was a real grief and depression. I remember being on

963
00:55:06,039 --> 00:55:08,199
a I went to the Time one Hunter Things Michael

964
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,519
right after I got fired from CNN, and they said,

965
00:55:11,119 --> 00:55:12,800
how do you feel about losing your job?

966
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 3: And I said, well, I didn't lose my job. I

967
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:14,920
lost my sister.

968
00:55:15,639 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 1: I lost me, but I lost my sister And that

969
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,679
was a much deeper grief and pain and depression than

970
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:21,320
this will.

971
00:55:21,159 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 3: Ever be or could ever be.

972
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: So what's God's plan for me? God's plan for me

973
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,119
is his plan, and I'm going to let him let

974
00:55:29,119 --> 00:55:30,119
it unfold in my life.

975
00:55:31,159 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 2: And that's the rule I follow every day. People look

976
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,679
at me and go, so, what are you doing next?

977
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 3: I was like, I don't know.

978
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 2: I wake up tomorrow morning, I'll be told.

979
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,679
Speaker 3: Isn't that great? Isn't that great?

980
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 2: It's great?

981
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 4: And you know what's great about it, don It's freeing

982
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,920
as hell. It is the freest thing in the world.

983
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,800
To get up and just experience the day.

984
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and experience life as it unfolds in front of

985
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:04,000
That drives my wife a little bit crazy. She's like, Okay,

986
00:56:04,039 --> 00:56:06,679
you're a little bit too loose on the feeling the day.

987
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,360
So because I need I need, I got three things

988
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:10,280
I need you to do.

989
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,519
Speaker 3: So, and you're not. When's your birthday? Are you a Pisces?

990
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 2: I'm a Libra baby.

991
00:56:16,159 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 3: Oh okay, oh wait a minute. Did you just have

992
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:19,519
a birthday?

993
00:56:20,079 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 2: It's coming up in October.

994
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:22,599
Speaker 3: Oh it is, that's right.

995
00:56:22,639 --> 00:56:23,760
Speaker 2: I think October nineteenth.

996
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:25,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, and my mom is October sixth.

997
00:56:26,039 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

998
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you're late. You're almost in the cusp.

999
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 2: Almost, So I got I got a little bit of

1000
00:56:32,519 --> 00:56:36,000
that extra in the back end. But yeah, but most

1001
00:56:36,039 --> 00:56:39,320
of my life is seeking balance and just letting it

1002
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,960
flow and come in and and yeah. It drives my

1003
00:56:43,039 --> 00:56:46,840
Pisce's wife a little bit nuts. I mean, my wife

1004
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,639
is my sister's a pisces. My wife is a tars.

1005
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 1: Oh oh, oh, strongly, exactly exactly.

1006
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:58,760
Speaker 2: You know what his brother is always like in the

1007
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,760
zin position, because you have to be, I have to be.

1008
00:57:06,599 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 3: I have to make a LAWD knows.

1009
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 2: Jesus LAWD knows.

1010
00:57:10,199 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: Michael, Can I ask you? But you've had do you

1011
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:13,559
mind if I ask you? Can I switch sure?

1012
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 2: No, let's switch up. Yeah, go ahead.

1013
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: So you have had a you know from I don't

1014
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,920
know if you remember the first time we met, and

1015
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:21,679
it was years ago.

1016
00:57:21,679 --> 00:57:23,159
Speaker 3: I interviewed you in your office and you were head

1017
00:57:23,159 --> 00:57:26,960
of the RNC then in d C. Were you in

1018
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:27,159
d C?

1019
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 2: In d C or on Capitol Hill? Yeah?

1020
00:57:29,559 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 3: Did you have your own office somewhere else? Was it

1021
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:32,679
in Virginia? Was it in d C?

1022
00:57:33,079 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 2: It was in d C, d C?

1023
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:38,559
Speaker 3: Okay, yep and so And I believe that same.

1024
00:57:38,639 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: Week because I was on a series, I interviewed Colin Powell,

1025
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,519
and I think it was going to do like black leaders,

1026
00:57:44,239 --> 00:57:45,679
and you were one of them.

1027
00:57:46,079 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 3: And you're always a good guy.

1028
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:54,719
Speaker 1: But you have evolved and you've changed and you've allowed that,

1029
00:57:55,079 --> 00:57:57,440
which I think is a sign of an intelligent person.

1030
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:01,199
It's like when you get new information facts, when you

1031
00:58:01,199 --> 00:58:05,440
get new evidence, you evolve and you're not strident in

1032
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:07,159
your belief as I believe.

1033
00:58:07,639 --> 00:58:09,519
Speaker 3: The folks who are the folks who are part of.

1034
00:58:09,519 --> 00:58:13,559
Speaker 1: The Maga cult now who are part of the Maga

1035
00:58:13,599 --> 00:58:17,079
cult are doing they are. They can't change because it's

1036
00:58:17,079 --> 00:58:18,880
a cult. They have to be deprogrammed.

1037
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 3: And you were never there.

1038
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 1: But I'm just had an evolution and you never allowed

1039
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:26,960
yourself to get bogged down in the crazy conspiracy theories,

1040
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,239
and you saw your party going off the edge, and

1041
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,360
then you have this your your mom dies and there

1042
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:33,519
you have this crisis.

1043
00:58:33,679 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 3: What has that been like for you? Because that's a

1044
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:36,039
lot I think.

1045
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 2: Yes, as I said, a beginning, and.

1046
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: You're seen, for God's sake, it's not like a fox,

1047
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:47,239
but I mean I think you'd be.

1048
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 2: It's not just coffee in this cup.

1049
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 3: Let me right, right, right right.

1050
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,639
Speaker 2: I celebrate New Year's every day. Baby, at ten o'clock am,

1051
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,320
I'm starting, It's a new day. You know that that's

1052
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:06,280
a that's a next question. My mother, Uh that that

1053
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:10,679
story is and I probably should write it. I have

1054
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:12,800
the title of the book in my head and it's

1055
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,079
just in my heart. I just it's Maybel and Me

1056
00:59:16,679 --> 00:59:21,840
or Maybell's Son, which is a little bit more accurate.

1057
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:33,679
It's just she she told me how to be free

1058
00:59:33,719 --> 00:59:38,239
of a lot of crazy stuff. I grew up in

1059
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:42,079
d C at a time where you know, she couldn't

1060
00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:44,239
take me to parks in d C because they were

1061
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:49,599
for white only. We couldn't shop at certain stores. And

1062
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:54,119
in this environment, she she taught me a love for

1063
00:59:54,159 --> 00:59:57,480
a country that didn't love back right, and she taught

1064
00:59:57,519 --> 01:00:01,360
me to be an independent thinker. She always stressed that

1065
01:00:01,679 --> 01:00:04,360
always think for yourself. She said, never follow the crowd.

1066
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:09,679
Never follow the crowd, because you are your own leader,

1067
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,719
and if you do it right, others will follow you.

1068
01:00:12,719 --> 01:00:16,960
You don't, and and then then then learn how to

1069
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:22,000
be responsible and accountable and all this stuff, man just

1070
01:00:22,079 --> 01:00:25,280
came at me, and I just found it. I just

1071
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,280
found it easier not to get caught up in other

1072
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:33,639
people stupid and be in a situation. One thing is,

1073
01:00:33,679 --> 01:00:36,000
I always hate it. When I was at the RNC,

1074
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,079
and even when I was a lieutenant governor was explaining

1075
01:00:39,159 --> 01:00:44,199
someone else's behavior, I'm like, what I knew that shit

1076
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:48,760
they did? Why are you asking me? But you need

1077
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,559
to go talk to them. I didn't do it, And

1078
01:00:51,639 --> 01:00:53,840
what does it matter what my opinion is of what

1079
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,599
they did right, you know? And and so that I've

1080
01:00:57,599 --> 01:01:02,679
always sort of resisted that of it. And thank you

1081
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:09,199
for recognizing the sense of always being open to new

1082
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:13,000
information and new thoughts even when it even when it

1083
01:01:13,039 --> 01:01:19,719
doesn't sit well with what you think you believe. And

1084
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,440
that's why there were a lot of lessons in your

1085
01:01:22,519 --> 01:01:30,800
book about challenging yourself with new information, challenging your faith,

1086
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:35,280
because that's the hardest thing, the hardest. I believe this,

1087
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:37,800
this is what I have faith then, right, and there

1088
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,159
are times where I think God caused us to even

1089
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:44,280
challenge ourselves on that right. I'm putting this in front

1090
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,119
of you, but you know it's up to you. That

1091
01:01:47,239 --> 01:01:49,320
free will thing is a bit okay.

1092
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 3: Can I ask you another thing?

1093
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? Still a Republican, Yes I am, because it pisses

1094
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:54,840
them off.

1095
01:01:58,039 --> 01:02:00,199
Speaker 3: You are not whether a Republican party has become.

1096
01:02:00,079 --> 01:02:02,679
Speaker 2: I know, and that's that I stand. I stand. So

1097
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,679
I'm glad you said that because one thing I wanted

1098
01:02:05,679 --> 01:02:09,599
to get into with with you at a certain aspects

1099
01:02:09,599 --> 01:02:13,760
of the book, which aligned with my training as a seminarian,

1100
01:02:14,199 --> 01:02:17,920
when I was talking before about a dying to self.

1101
01:02:18,639 --> 01:02:22,079
The other thing, one of the reasons why we wear

1102
01:02:22,159 --> 01:02:27,119
religious habits, one of the reasons why we wear the crucifix,

1103
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:31,920
one of the reasons why we have these symbols that

1104
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,440
that we put out as outward signs, is that we

1105
01:02:35,559 --> 01:02:40,079
must be a sign of contradiction to the world. And

1106
01:02:40,159 --> 01:02:45,360
so my faith journey, whenever I would go out in

1107
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:48,880
my habit, I knew in that moment I was being

1108
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:56,639
a sign to the world of something important, something possible,

1109
01:02:57,679 --> 01:03:02,280
not just being in a religious community or going through

1110
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:08,840
all of those machinations, but this sense of loving loving

1111
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:14,920
others purely and openly without fear. You know, I love

1112
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:19,719
you as a brother in Christ, whether I know you

1113
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:25,960
or not, right, and that's important, that's an important sign

1114
01:03:26,079 --> 01:03:29,079
that we should all be willing to share with each other.

1115
01:03:31,159 --> 01:03:34,360
And yet, to points that you make very clearly in

1116
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:41,519
the book, we we've allowed our politics, we've allowed our

1117
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:45,360
lack of faith, our lack of belief in ourselves, let

1118
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:48,599
alone others, to become the thing that is rotting us

1119
01:03:48,599 --> 01:03:53,400
from within. And so it's easier to sort of hold

1120
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:56,039
on to that than to be that sign of contradiction man,

1121
01:03:56,119 --> 01:03:58,800
to to go out there and live the Gospel life

1122
01:03:59,199 --> 01:04:04,280
in the Gospel Team in a way that others see

1123
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:08,760
that and appreciate it for what it is, and it

1124
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,239
made it may at some point called them to that. Right,

1125
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:16,480
so that love of another neighbor the way you are loved.

1126
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:23,599
Speaker 1: So can ask another question, sure, okay, so when you look,

1127
01:04:23,639 --> 01:04:26,519
we've got come so far from you. Remember when you

1128
01:04:26,559 --> 01:04:29,400
know people would say, oh my god, George Bush is

1129
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:30,360
the worst.

1130
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:31,239
Speaker 2: And right, right?

1131
01:04:32,199 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 1: I remember, well, I wonder if perhaps then that you

1132
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,440
were exactly what the Republican Party needed and I say

1133
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:46,519
that I preface a question with this, right, because this

1134
01:04:46,599 --> 01:04:49,000
is like a you know, maybe I'm soft pealing a

1135
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,400
little bit, right, I'm trying to. I'm wondering how you

1136
01:04:51,440 --> 01:05:01,199
feel when you see people like Mark Robinson not he

1137
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:04,519
I mean, that's the extreme. And then you see Byron

1138
01:05:04,559 --> 01:05:07,840
Donald's and then you see Tim Scott, right, all of

1139
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,480
these guys sort of who are black men and have

1140
01:05:10,559 --> 01:05:14,039
a certain relationship as with the country, with America. And

1141
01:05:14,119 --> 01:05:17,639
you know, I don't believe there's a more unique relationship

1142
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:21,079
with America than African Americans.

1143
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 2: Right, agreed.

1144
01:05:23,039 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 3: The second or one of similar.

1145
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:29,119
Speaker 1: Would be Native Americans being brought here as slaves and

1146
01:05:29,159 --> 01:05:30,079
treated the way we were.

1147
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,239
Speaker 3: We have a unique relationship to this country.

1148
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,039
Speaker 1: As I write in the book, as a black man,

1149
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:40,760
I have a unique relationship, a problematic relationship with the flag, right,

1150
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:43,679
but I love it, right, I love it for what

1151
01:05:43,719 --> 01:05:46,320
it stands for. And as a gay man, I have

1152
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,920
a complex, say complicated. I have a complicated relationship.

1153
01:05:50,079 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 3: With the Bible. Right. And you see.

1154
01:05:54,079 --> 01:05:59,159
Speaker 1: People conducting themselves in that way, especially considering our relationship

1155
01:05:59,159 --> 01:06:04,599
to America and what this particular individual and movement is

1156
01:06:04,679 --> 01:06:06,280
doing to the country.

1157
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:08,199
Speaker 3: What do you think about that? How does that make

1158
01:06:08,239 --> 01:06:08,880
you feel like someone?

1159
01:06:09,039 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 2: It pisses me off. It pisses me off. There are

1160
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,719
a few terms I could use that I think are

1161
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:20,079
fuller expression of what I think of their behavior and

1162
01:06:20,119 --> 01:06:22,039
think of them. I think you would know what those are.

1163
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:34,000
I'm at once very disappointed because that's not how our

1164
01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:41,960
journey should end, given our history. That I've always believed

1165
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:50,079
and still believe that African Americans, Native Americans especially are

1166
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:59,239
uniquely called to this country to be, to be that

1167
01:06:59,239 --> 01:07:04,760
that light that shows the value of the words written

1168
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:10,679
in parchment by the founders. Right. And I recently gave

1169
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:13,719
a talk, and I it was a room full of

1170
01:07:13,719 --> 01:07:18,440
African Americans and women and across section of folks, and

1171
01:07:18,719 --> 01:07:20,719
I looked at I said, we all know that these

1172
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:23,360
words weren't written for us. They weren't written for many

1173
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:27,199
of the people in this room. But the beauty of

1174
01:07:27,519 --> 01:07:31,360
this journey is that we now own those words. They're ours,

1175
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:36,760
and we are a fuller expression of those words than

1176
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:41,280
the founders could ever imagine. And so it is incumbent

1177
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:46,000
on us to be an example of those words at

1178
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:51,039
all times, because we know they weren't for us. But

1179
01:07:51,119 --> 01:07:55,480
now they we have them. They're ours, right, We are

1180
01:07:55,559 --> 01:07:59,480
the people that are part and parcel of forming this

1181
01:07:59,559 --> 01:08:02,960
more per vic union. Yeah baby, this is our ish too, right.

1182
01:08:03,559 --> 01:08:08,000
We got this. So when I see, especially black men,

1183
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:16,880
behave in a way that tarnishes that legacy of ours,

1184
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:24,720
that gives in to the ill treatment of the Black experience,

1185
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:34,159
that advocate for the enslavement of their own people, it

1186
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:40,520
is regretful. It is disappointing. It brings shame on the community,

1187
01:08:41,359 --> 01:08:49,000
and their place at the table should be removed until

1188
01:08:49,039 --> 01:08:53,560
they learn better. Go sit your ass in the corner

1189
01:08:55,039 --> 01:08:58,520
until you work out your shit, because right now you

1190
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:01,960
messing it up for the rest of us, and you confused.

1191
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:04,319
And the last thing we need is confused white people.

1192
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:10,880
We need clarity in their eyes to see what our

1193
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:14,000
experience since sixteen nineteen has meant to this country. So

1194
01:09:14,039 --> 01:09:16,840
we don't need you out here advocating burning books. We

1195
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,279
don't need you out here advocating for black people to

1196
01:09:19,319 --> 01:09:21,800
be enslaved because you want to own one. We don't

1197
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,760
need you out here, you know, saying all this stuff

1198
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:27,800
about gay and lesbian people and trans people when you're

1199
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,960
out there looking at transport. We don't need you out

1200
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,000
here with your bullshit talking about how much you love

1201
01:09:34,159 --> 01:09:37,359
Donald Trump. Used to take your ass in the corner

1202
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,039
and you work that shit out, and then you were

1203
01:09:41,079 --> 01:09:43,239
good to come back to the table and work with

1204
01:09:43,279 --> 01:09:47,000
the rest of us to improve this country, to live

1205
01:09:47,079 --> 01:09:49,000
up to the words that are written on that parchment.

1206
01:09:52,159 --> 01:09:55,560
Speaker 3: I was angry. Sure, I'd say, Michael Steele everyone.

1207
01:09:55,279 --> 01:09:56,119
Speaker 2: And you just did.

1208
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:04,600
Speaker 3: Michael. You said that on Joe. Wow, that would cause

1209
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:07,159
a stir. I try to say it.

1210
01:10:07,159 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 2: But I had that can't use it the words that

1211
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,439
I'd like to really just emphasize the point.

1212
01:10:12,199 --> 01:10:14,680
Speaker 1: But you know I do. Look, I do it, and

1213
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:18,479
that's why you hear my own independence in my own studio.

1214
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 2: But you know what, ownership is a beautiful thing, baby,

1215
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:27,520
beautiful thing. Right. It's I'm loving the set. That's nice.

1216
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:32,520
That's very nice, everybody. Don Lemon one hell of a

1217
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:36,119
fond brother who's written and I think again, a very

1218
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:41,680
personal and important book. I once was lost.

1219
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:42,199
Speaker 3: Uh.

1220
01:10:42,239 --> 01:10:45,239
Speaker 2: It is his journey, but it's also ours, and I

1221
01:10:45,279 --> 01:10:48,399
appreciate you coming on and sharing it. Man. That that's

1222
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:53,119
I was really excited about. When I was telling me

1223
01:10:53,159 --> 01:10:57,319
you were coming on, I was like, yes, as my producer.

1224
01:10:57,479 --> 01:10:59,960
So is that happen to be like soon? He was like, yeah,

1225
01:11:00,079 --> 01:11:03,000
next week, I'm look good. I was really excited man

1226
01:11:03,039 --> 01:11:03,640
to have you on.

1227
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:06,079
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

1228
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:08,720
Speaker 2: All right, Well, folks, that does it for our little

1229
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,039
time together in this conversation. You know, I always love

1230
01:11:11,079 --> 01:11:13,399
it when you do those things you have to do

1231
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:17,199
to show your love. Download talk about it, like it,

1232
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:21,479
slip it, whip it, make it work. I appreciate it

1233
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:26,439
every time. Do check out the good work of Don Lemon.

1234
01:11:27,199 --> 01:11:30,479
You can follow him on Twitter at Don Lemon. You

1235
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:34,159
should because he puts some some good stuff there. Now

1236
01:11:34,199 --> 01:11:36,399
you've got your own studio platform. Now tell us a

1237
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:39,239
thing about that. That's on YouTube the Don Lemon Shows.

1238
01:11:39,279 --> 01:11:40,560
I think you can go YouTube.

1239
01:11:40,199 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 1: Dot com, slash or YouTube dot com at the Don

1240
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:47,159
Lemon Show. You can follow me. My TikTok is crazy.

1241
01:11:47,159 --> 01:11:50,319
I get like sometimes millions of things. It's so interesting

1242
01:11:50,399 --> 01:11:53,399
being I get more people watching me on TikTok than watch.

1243
01:11:53,279 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 3: Me on CNN. Yes, yes, on Instagram.

1244
01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:58,600
Speaker 1: And you know you saw my journey to the convention

1245
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:01,239
and back when I viewed all those people and then

1246
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:01,800
this is.

1247
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:03,640
Speaker 3: What I think you guys are just talking about this.

1248
01:12:04,039 --> 01:12:05,439
I've been talking about.

1249
01:12:05,319 --> 01:12:08,840
Speaker 1: Black men supporting Donald Trump ever and that would have

1250
01:12:09,199 --> 01:12:11,119
and I show it and then all of a sudden,

1251
01:12:11,119 --> 01:12:12,880
now they're like, I see the people on the morning

1252
01:12:13,159 --> 01:12:15,640
talking about old black you know, the black I'm like,

1253
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:20,439
I've been saying this where hello, I'm right here. So yeah,

1254
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:23,000
check out my YouTube channel and check out my social

1255
01:12:23,199 --> 01:12:25,640
I'm really having a good time doing it. Not only

1256
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:29,039
that I'm informing people so and it's resonating.

1257
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 2: So it's good. And the other part that I love

1258
01:12:32,039 --> 01:12:34,359
that makes it a lot of fun is, folks, he's

1259
01:12:34,399 --> 01:12:37,920
still Don lemonon. Yes, he's still Don Lemon and it's

1260
01:12:38,039 --> 01:12:40,279
it's New Year's Eve every day. I love it.