Speaker 1: There's always a reason for something to happen. And if
you have a crisis of faith, then you should dig deep.
If you are dumped on your ass, you should dig
deep and to figure out what that is, because you
know that thing about God is trying to tell you something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, yep. Hey, folks, welcome to the Michael Steel Podcast.
I'm glad you are here with me in the house.
As we are officially now in fall, the leads are
starting the term, the elections are getting close, and the
conversations are getting a little bit more interesting. And this
week's conversation will be no different. I'm excited to welcome
to the table my friend Don Lemon. He has spent
three decades on local and national TV. He's a trusted
voice and out there and no more than doing tragic
times like the Sandy Hook massacre, war torn Europe and
doing the riots of twenty twenty. Don's voice was one
that people turn to for insight, information and comfort to
be honest. Anchoring Don Lemon Tonight on CNN for many
many years, he was known for not just hard hitting
interviews with public officials and compassionate dialogues with everyday people,
but just having fun and showing how these conversations could
be interesting and thought provoking and challenging but also fun.
And I've always enjoyed watching him. He now hosts The
Don Lemon Show, which is streaming on all platforms, and
he's out with a new memoir which we will get into,
which was right up my alley I once was lost.
My Search for God in America. It's out right now.
I really encourage you to pick up a copy of it.
It is a sobering read. It is a personal journey,
and it is one that will ask you to ask
questions about your own faith journey in this crazy, wacky
space we call America. So I'm really looking forward to
having Don join us. You're going to get into the
conversation with him and me coming up next right here
on the Michael Steel Podcast. Everybody, welcome to the Michael
Steel Podcast. So I'm just telling you right up front,
just if you don't have something in the cup, you
got thirty seconds, go get it and come back, because
you're gonna love it. You're gonna love this conversation with
my man Donald I have. I have been a great
admirer and fan of his for a long time. Especially
around New Year's But that's that's another conversation because his
brother let his hair down and my wife and I,
I literally would sit on the couch with with a
bottle champagne and get just as toasty as my boy
was on TV and love every minute of it. Welcome
Don Lemon to the podcast.
Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting me on. It's good to see you.
We haven't spoken in a while. And you know what,
every single day people are like, I miss you. Well,
they say I miss you in CNA. But you know
what I missed the most? And I'll say, what New
Year's New Year's Eve?
Speaker 2: Nowt you?
Speaker 3: That was?
Speaker 1: With the real shows started when you came on. I'm like, because, Michael,
what are people doing on New Year's Eve? They're getting
toasty like you and your wife sitting around talking policy
right now.
Speaker 2: And we're looking. We're looking to you know, if you're
at home, if you choose to be at home, or
you're going to have the TV, or you're going to
watch the ball come down, you want to watch it
with someone who's having as much fun as you are, right,
and so you you you brought that joy every New
Year's but you also brought an impeccable body of work
over or seventeen plus years at CNN, the work you're
doing now, and you have come out with a new book,
which I had to tell folks just and tell you, honestly,
I did not expect this book. I did not expect
this book from you. It was it was deeply personal
in ways that I thought really refreshing, particularly knowing you
know some of your backstory and some of the things
that you've shared over the years on the air. I
Once Was Lost is a powerful journey of faith which
I think will catch readers a little bit off guard
in a very good way. Tell us a little bit
about your mindset in bringing this story to us now
and why you thought or even felt compelled if maybe
too strong a word, but I think it works to
write this story the way you did.
Speaker 1: That's a big question, and it's a good one.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It was supposed to be sort of a follow up,
our coda to my previous book, which came during COVID
and George Floyd, right, just to follow up on racism,
because a lot of the racism was rooted in in
religious doctrines, right, A lot of that ignorance about religious
doctrines and people using the Bible to not only to
subjugate women, but to enslave African Americans and so on,
and I just started to see the apocrisy just increasing
in our politics, and our politics becoming just flooded and
infiltrated with religion, and mostly from evangelical sort of radical
people trying not only trying to blur the line between
church and state, but really trying to erase that line.
And I, you know, I've always been a person of faith.
I don't wear it on my sleeve. It's something that's private.
If you choose to be a preacher, or you know
a pastor, or you know someone who wants to go
out and preach, then that's your business. My faith is
more personal than that. Now I almost hit my religion
because I don't, you know, religion is not something that's
very attractive to me, but faith. And so this book
was about my love for God, my love for country,
and how it helped to shape me into the person
that I am today, and how it helped me to
fight against the really toxic evangelical teachings that sought to
marginalize me and other people who are parts of underserved
communities like women minorities, members of the LGBTQ community and
so on, And so that was that the mindset and
you ask about was just truth. I always want to
be truthful. I always want to inform people. I started
writing this book in twenty twenty two, before I left
CNN and before I was fired from CNN, and then
when I did, I put it down for a summer,
and when I went back to it was a completely
different and more personal book.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and I can see that. I can see
that as someone who had I appreciated that you just
said about that faith journey and what what this moment means.
When you're sort of taking a step back and looking
at that journey, then something happens, like you know what
happened at CNN and all the drama there. Then you
come back to it and you have a different appreciation
of what the journey really is, because faith in this instance,
really tests its own principles as you understand them. You know,
what is faith? What is it a faith in the
thing that I'm doing? Is it a faith beyond the
thing I'm doing? And I know in my journey, which
is why I identified so much with this book in
terms of, you know, leaving myself open to a calling
to become a priest and going into a monastery and
spending years there and reconciling parts of that journey with
what's going on in the world and all of that.
You really you sort of capture all of that right
at the beginning of the book. And I just want
to pull up a quick a quote on that. You said,
I've always understood that faith is something we need, even
as a cynical world tries to tell us otherwise. The
world tends to focus on those moments that dump on you,
dump you on your ass. Faith focuses on the formidable
arms that sweep you back into the rhythm of love.
And that theme is something you carry in this book
in ways I hope people really see because you talk.
One of the one of the great scenes is you're
a three year old. You're at church, your mama is
you're a little bit restless, as little three year old
boys tend to be more so than girls sometimes, and
you're you're a little antsy, but she picks you up,
puts her in your arms. Your grandma, that's what your grandma,
puts her in your arms, and the Holy Spirit must
have hit her because she stood up to shout and
give glory and dumped your ass on the floor. That is.
But faith is like that. I mean, it's it's that
sweeping up, all right and holding but it's also that
moment where you're popped into a new reality, right, Yeah,
And you talk about that and I think in a
very expressive way.
Speaker 3: Well, and that's kind of the whole thing.
Speaker 1: Like, you know, even if you have a crisis of faith,
and I think we all have had that, which was
part of the reason that I wrote this after my
sister died. But you're right because when I thought about,
you know, what was going on and what was happening
in my life, that was kind of a metaphor, right,
somebody dumped you on your ass and then all of
a sudden, you know, the people sweep in and for me,
I think for most people it's true, but I know
for me, there's been a common theme in my life
that women have have swept me up.
Speaker 3: And kept me going.
Speaker 1: Every time I'm out, man, I got to tell you
the Black Sisters, we missed you on CNN, right, And
then I'm just I'm joking, but not far off. That's
kind of what they say, we love everything. Don lemon,
where are you? How can I get you? And so
that was I think. I said it was my first
brush or when my first encounter. I forget the exact
words I did, but I said with the Holy Ghost
was sitting on my grandmother's lap and three years old
at Shiloh Missionary Baptist Church. And I would not have
remembered this story if my sister didn't tell it so much.
I laughed about it, but I got my grandmother had
got the spirit dumped me. I think my head probably
hit the pew and I hit the floor, and my
which you know, ran over to pick me up, to
swoop me up, and then all of these women ran
over to do the same thing. And I said, they
sort of they have held me in their ample bosom,
you know, not in an eird way, but for my
entire life.
Speaker 3: And I just.
Speaker 1: Remember that, and then that's being a theme in my life,
just how much support I've always had from women. I
wanted them to know, especially what was going on and
what was being written about me, and like I need
to know that this this just ain't true. And so
there's a reason that this all happened. One I believe
so that I could be free and independent. The other thing,
I believe that it was for me to be able
to write this book, and then the other the next
thing is that I don't know, but I'm okay with
not knowing.
Speaker 3: What that right? Right, God.
Speaker 1: And the person I served has always taken care of me.
And if some people may want to call it the universe,
and I don't believe that my God is going to
let me down, and so I want people to know
that and to understand that there's always a reason for
something to happen. And if you have a crisis of faith,
then you should dig deep. If you are dumped on
your ass, you should dig deep and to figure out
what that is, because you know that thing about God
is trying to tell you something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, yep. So so you you you have that
that underpinning and you have the realization of that now
as a as a grown ass man, I love it
when you say that at various points, because that's how
my mom used to talk to me, and that's how
I talk now when I referred to certain individuals. You
grown ass man, you should know better, right you note
as a gay black boy in the deep South, attending
Baptist churches and Catholic school, I heard homosexuality defined as
an abomination. When I came to understand the meaning of
both words and then applied them to myself, I prayed
as hard as a child could, please, Lord, make me
not be gay. How did how did that impact your faith? Well,
you're not just in a god or an institution like
a church, because that's what you know as a young
man is a young boy. But as you would get
older and come to the fullness of appreciating what that
who that gay black boy is not was? But is
did that stress test your faith? Well?
Speaker 3: What does this saying? I hope, I'm not sure. I
don't get it right.
Speaker 1: But faith is what the evidence of things that are
not seen? Right, So if you are going to be
a person of faith and you're going to believe in
evidence or things that are not seen, then you have
to question that.
Speaker 3: And so as I as I got.
Speaker 1: Older, like if you if you question question question, which
is which is what the Bible says that you should do.
If you question question question, then you'll come to if
you are really honest with yourself, you'll come to a
realization about what is and what isn't And as I
became as a child that faith was magical thinking like
Santa Claus pray. As a child that way, it was
like God, please don't do this, God please, you know,
please take the gay away and whatever. And then you,
as an adult, you realize with critical thinking, as one
does when one starts to realize. And I write in
the book about the realization of Santa Claus. Yeah, as
you said, your critical thinking starts to develop and then
you go, oh, okay. I started to realize that the
interpretation of the Bible and scriptures. And I'm talking about
Christianity because I am that, but this goes for other
religions as well. It's all in the interpretation, and people
can interpret things whatever way that they want, and many
times they are often wrong. So if someone tells you
that they have figured that out and they know exactly
what the Bible means and all the verses mean, then
then also ask them like, can you hand me a
grain of salt as well?
Speaker 3: Right, they don't know. And I also came.
Speaker 1: To when you asked me, how did it test my
faith or how did I come to that realization or
just sort of square that what I realized quite frankly, Michael,
is that the Bible is not a book of facts.
Speaker 3: It's not really a book. It's a library.
Speaker 1: It is mythology, it is allegory, and.
Speaker 3: It is really lessons.
Speaker 1: M It's parables as well on how to be a
better person, how to find God in yourself and other people.
So we're quite often looking for the image of trying
to create God in our own image instead of realizing
that we were created in God's image and sing for
God and the image of other people, that we get
so stuck trying to create God in our image, right,
And so I realize most people are trying to create
God in their own image instead of looking for God
and other people. So if you're looking for God and
other people, then you're not judging. If they're gay, you're
not judging it, they're trands, you're not judging. If they're black,
you're not judging. If they're white, you're not judging. If
they're a woman, you are what accepting them for who
they are where they.
Speaker 2: Are, well, isn't isn't that the love your neighbor as yourself.
Speaker 3: Love your neighbor as yourself, or do unto others?
Speaker 2: Do unto others.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, And so as an adult I realized that
and I said, you know what this is all about
control and really about the interpretation. You should not be
judging me, because God says, you know, don't judge, right,
And so that's how I squared it. And I decided
that if if, if there is faith, if there is
a God, if there is religion, and if it's not,
as James Baldwin says, if we're not using it to
make us bigger and stronger and more open and more connected,
then we should get rid of it. So that's all
critical thinking and an open mind, Michael, and an open mind.
Speaker 2: And yeah, so so let's let's let's stress test your
open mind because you are, you are very familiar with
and have been the subject of some pretty ugly attacks.
As you know, I think I have you have, I mean,
particularly as black men who who through their profession and
their choices and their words, stress test the systems we're in, right,
I mean, because that's what we do. That's what that's
what you've done in your media career, is what I've
done in my political career. How do you reconcile your
faith then around those attacks? Particularly when they they they
do come at you personally where they talk about, uh,
your sexual orientation, the color of your skin, all of
those things that that define who you are as Don Lemon,
or define me as Michael Steele. How do you sort
of put that faith bucket right in front? So you
put all that in there.
Speaker 1: Well, I believe that if you're talking about the you know,
the attacks and all that, I believe the criticism of
me is often rooted in racism and homophobia. So I
understand that that goes along with the territory. And I
also believe that when you know the attacks and people
saying things about us or writing things about us, or
having an understanding about us, that's not necessarily true.
Speaker 3: I think it's nothing.
Speaker 1: Compared to the folks who bought and died to get
me here. And so in order for me to sit
where I'm sitting, or to have whatever platform that is
that I'm having, I feel that I just I felt
that I deserved that platform because not only did I
work for it, but there were others who who worked
for it for me, and whose shoulders upon which I
stood and still stand. So I go into it knowing that,
but I also go into it knowing, Michael, not that
I'm comparing myself, but Jesus was attacked constantly, right, Doctor
King was attacked constantly. Any figure in our history who
tried to do something good and who has tried to
have an open mind, any figure has been attacked in
our history. And so instead of saying, well, why me,
why me? How do I square this? I say why
not me? And perhaps that I am a person and
someone who God has put here to understand that I
have big things to do, and with those big things
to do come comes the attacks and the criticism. And
if I can figure out why, if I dig deep
enough and I keep asking why, and I keep question,
then I will figure that out and that will make
me a bigger, better, and stronger representative of my God. Dude,
that seems really like, you know, sort of pieing this guy,
but that's what I actually believe. And I feel like
I must keep going. I can never stop. You're going
to stop me. I'm not going to be defeated, I'm
not going to fall. I'm just going to keep going
and whatever that evolves into, that is what it is.
So you know, I face a lot of attacks, as
do you. But you're still standing and I'm still standing
going and if we have to considering considering our unique
history as African Americans in this country, there's no way
that we can stop. We would be letting all those
people down, our ancestors if we did that. What and
they had faith, that's what got them through. Even if
they got them through, have all the passages in it, Yeah,
it's still.
Speaker 2: They Yeah, they had they had a childlike faith.
Speaker 3: It did they had.
Speaker 2: I say I say that deliberately because of how you
write about that. Yeah, you're psychopical of that, but you
have to here's what you have.
Speaker 1: To remember, and that I someone said the other night,
and I thought about, like, you know, all of the
women who had babies in the field, you know they
they had babies in the field.
Speaker 2: Yep, we don't.
Speaker 1: We don't we forget that we tended to or all
the lashes that people got from not doing what the
Master told us to do. All the people who were lynched, right,
and they had faith, but they got through it for us.
So I don't believe that my journey or even my
life is over. Just if when I leave this earth,
I believe that what I say and what I do
here and what this book and what I leave that
that's going to carry on And so whatever the circumstances
are here, these circumstances are not permanent.
Speaker 3: It is what.
Speaker 1: It's how I choose to respond to them because of
my faith. And then who knows what what will happen
in the future. Who knows how God is going to
use this book or my other books or my work,
or what something that I've said, or how He's going
to use me in the future. And so that's my
childlike faith that I believe will carry me through.
Speaker 3: And to all of this.
Speaker 2: But it's not a submissive criticism. It's not. It's not
it's not it's not a submissive acceptance. How how does
how does that work for you? Because when Christ Christ
often times in both parables and in conversations with his apostles,
refers to children and and and the innocence of children.
That's that for me is always a very compelling aspect
of faith, is there is an innocence, not in a
sense of being naive or gullible or you know, even
even submissive to the point of losing one's identity, but
it's more of a giving oneself over completely and and
and saying I am like that clay, that piece of
clay shape me, mold me into being that better person.
And that that is for me a big part of
the faith journey. It's an everyday shaping of of the
of the gospel teachings into my skin, into my being,
and then having that expressed through what you see in
the Catholic Church. One of the things I learned very
early in my seminary training was a dying to self
because it ain't about you.
Speaker 3: You're reading my mind, right, it.
Speaker 2: Ain't about you. So the first thing you got to
learn in order for you to be a faithful servant
for others is you have to die to oneself. Let
me shape you, let me help you be that. And
that faith is trusting in God doing that.
Speaker 1: So as you're sitting here saying that, I just you know,
as thinking about this one is you were talking about children,
and that's children who's kind of pure, right, They're just yeah, right,
because they don't have they haven't absorbed all the toxicity.
I believe there are two points when we're closest to
the source, and that's when we're children and then when
we're old, right, just coming out of wherever where you
just have to trust where you are, not thinking, you're
just trusting the processes it. Right, you're born, someone's going
to take care of you. Eventually you're going to get
to a place where you can take care of yourself off.
And then there's everything that happens in the middle. Right
the end, you end up having to have that sort
of that same faith, right the natural sort of progression.
Speaker 3: Of you know, how long am I going to be
with it?
Speaker 1: Or I'm about to leave and I'm going to be
closer to the source again. I believe that when you
you know, when you talk about that childlife thing, that's
when we're really that's when we're at our most pure
as it relates to just having faith in the whole
process of God and life. And so you know, I'm
kind of in the middle now. People tend to overthink things,
and you keep praying, make me closer to you, make
me do this when we this is a part where
we should be the smartest and realized, well, look look
at where I came from where I am, and then look,
you know, think about where you're going. And so right now,
right when you're sort of in the middle where you
and I are and where most people are.
Speaker 3: This is where we should be most faithful with.
Speaker 1: An awareness, because in those other times we were most faithful,
we did not have an awareness at all.
Speaker 2: Do you understand what I'm I got you know, I'm
I'm I'm vibing all the way with you. No, I
get it, I get it.
Speaker 1: And so so this is the part where we should
just be where we should We should be happy and
mindful in the awareness that we have because we didn't
have it as a child, and we're probably not going
to have.
Speaker 3: It as we get older.
Speaker 1: We'll have it as we get older, but when you know,
when the process we tend when we're going on.
Speaker 2: To Yeah, but in that but in that so what
you what you're talking about, there's a there's a bookend
if you want to look at it. In that framing,
it is is as a as a child, a baby,
an infant, a toddler, even even as a you know,
a grade schooler. There is there is that innocence, that
that that faith in our parents and and those that
love us like you, Like we were talking a little
bit before, your mother who took you up in her arms,
in her bosom when you were restless, and you felt
comfortable and safe there, and you had you had faith
to use that word in that moment of protection. And
then all of a sudden, she's stood up and through
your ass on the floor. And then you were like, Grandma,
what the hell are you doing?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know about Grandma today, because but you
had others who then came to you to help rite
in those moments. Same is true at this at that
other book end in your life where and I saw
this with my mom in her ninety sixth year, as
she was as she had gone through that transition, and
her faith in God firm, but also her faith in
us to care for her and to help her and
to be there for her and to to sort of
give herself over in that in that sense to her
to her last moments last year. And so that that
was a very stark moment, And to be honest, I'm
still wrapping my head around that and the emotions that
go with that, because God has ways of testing our
faith not just in Him, but in each other and
in the very things we claim that we believe and
the way we claim we define ourselves. And these moments,
whether it is the loss of your sister, the loss
of my mother last year. Those are moments where all
of that is put in front of you and go, okay, really, okay,
tell me something, Tell me something now, talk to me
now right, tell me what you feel, and now tell
me what you think you know now. And that's a
very powerful lesson if we're open to learning it. But
a lot of people aren't. And I'm gonna I want
to get into that because you, as we started the conversation,
you noted this was a book about a lot of things, obviously,
but it's also about politics and how our faith gets
distorted and used against us by others. So I want
to get into that a little bit. Donald Lemon has
a new book out. I'm urging everyone to get it.
I once was lost, My Search for God in America.
It is out now, it is It is a comfortable read.
I like the way you talk in this book. I
like the way you express an idea and thought in
this book is like you're sitting here across from me
doing it when I'm holding the book. So I really
appreciate that you will too, Folks. We're going to take
a quick break more with donal Leman right after this
Welcome back every to Michael Steel Podcast. The book is
I Once Was Lost, My Search for God in America.
The author is the incomparable Don Lemon. You've known him
for his many years on CNN. You've had a few
after parties with him on New Year's for sure. But
he's written, I think, a very special book. And I
want to switch gears a little bit now that we've
sort of covered the sort of faith journey part of
the narrative and in turn to what happens when I
call it people losing faith. In fact, you note it
at one point and I highlighted, See I got to
go to my highlight in the book here real quick
where you talk about the faith that people have and
you used Abraham. Talk to me about Abraham.
Speaker 1: Oh, you're talking about going up to the mountains.
Speaker 2: Going up to the mountain. I've always and the reason,
the reason when I read that that section of the book,
I literally had to pause a little bit because I
have that has been the Abraham sacrificing of his son
at the at the command of God as the quintessential
ultimate test of faith. You threw some cold water on that.
Speaker 1: Yes, I got Mullach and the folks and still standing.
But I think that he had a faith right that
when he that he they could either do with mullak
right they Abraham, did you know?
Speaker 3: The long story short?
Speaker 1: He goes up and it's supposed to be the ram
and whatever and the sacrifice on the top of the mountain.
He gets there and there's already a sacrificial lamb already
up there, so he doesn't sacrifice his son. So I,
you know, I don't know if I throw cold water
on it. I'm interested to you know why. But I
just have a kind of turn on things. And I
think it's all in the interpretation. I think that he
knew what I write in there. He knew that there
was that he had faith that there was going to
be already a sacrificial lamb atop that mountain, and he
wasn't going to have to do it. And he came
down with his son and changed the minds of everyone
to you know, who had thought and who were in
fear that they were going to have to do the
same thing. That right, and that was sacrificed their own child.
But I think that whole sacrificing their own child was
a misinterpretation.
Speaker 3: Of God's teaching.
Speaker 1: Okay, talk to me why, because because again I think
it's parable, and I don't. I don't believe that. I
think everybody takes things literally, right, And he said, well,
it's all in your interpretation, but it's also all in
your faith and of what you believe in. So if
you're literally interpreting that you got to go up there
and you got to you know, sacrifice her child, then no,
but there are certain things that you have to sacrifice
and certain things that you have to do in life
in order to be a follower and a believer, right
and so and and some of those things are just tests,
but they're not actual literal tests where you do you
know exactly what they're writing in the book?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: And especially look, I also turned the whole raculate conception
on its head as well.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, okay, it just couldn't be that Joseph with
this was this nice guy, and this woman got pregnant
and she marin and so he was trying to take
her out of town so that she wouldn't because you
would be killed or you could be stone. Then, so
it wasn't just enough that Joseph was doing this sort
of beneficent thing that they had to make it into
a whole thing, and they had to turn it into
like a virgin sacrifice. Look, it's so funny, you know,
they say. The truth is often spoken in jest. There's
a comedian who said, and I was just listening to
it last night, and he said, you know, the Bible
talks about people talking about things being unreal and what
and then he went on and whatever.
Speaker 3: I forget the exact way he said.
Speaker 1: And he goes, you know, you think it's unreal that
that somebody said something about something and this is unreal.
And then he goes, oh, but you actually believe that
somebody got pregnant without you know, doing the deed, or
you know that it was just funny things that we
don't know. And I get, I get sorry, maybe I
didn't tell the story right.
Speaker 3: But you know what I'm saying, I don't.
Speaker 2: Just say no, I know, just saying and I think,
but what it goes to is it really kind of
goes into this whole space of what we are called
on to believe. That sets up the whole narrative about faith.
Uh maybe maybe the immaculate conception of Mary and the
immaculate uh, you know, the the impregnation of her by
because the immaculate conception is her conception without sin. And
then of course there is the you know, her being
able to conceive Jesus. Those things are arcs of belief,
and maybe maybe that it's it's not so much a
literal thing, but the idea speaks to the power of
a loving.
Speaker 1: God and get you back to a loving God. But
but a loving, humane person to me. You know, think
about what Joseph, cause.
Speaker 2: The story is really about more about Joseph than than
than anything. People lose sight of poor little Joseph.
Speaker 1: Yes, Joseph was doing this really great thing. And look,
I hypothesize something in there that I won't shit. I'll
wait for the audience. I'll wait for the reader to
figure it out. But I also hypothesize something about Joseph.
And you know, people were.
Speaker 3: Like, oh, I can't believe say that. But you know,
come on, let's be real. Should I tell him what
I said?
Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead, No, I think I think it's I say, well,
maybe Joseph was you know, this sort of gay guy
who said, uh, this woman, I pick yourself above the floor, right.
I don't want her to die or be stoned to
death or whatever because she, you know, got pregnant and she's.
Speaker 3: Not married, and then you know, I am not married
and whatever. So okay, this.
Speaker 2: Is kind of perfect because he was an older gentleman,
unmarried gentleman.
Speaker 3: Yes, and so it's kind of perfect.
Speaker 1: And so he took her out of her town and
took her to Bethlehem and Nate.
Speaker 2: And he got out of that town too.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't, like I say, it wasn't just enough
that this story could be about that he's a good
guy and that he's actually helping out this woman, right,
all of this stuff around it. But also if you
look at the Bible, I think the Bible is one
of the most interesting. I think it's the most interesting
book that has ever written. I agree Dynasy in the
eighties that has nothing on the Bible, right, right, I
think that you know, it's there to make us interested, right,
to make us think, But it is good people, better humans.
Speaker 2: It's an instruction manual. I like the way you described
it at the beginning, but it really is an instruction
manual for humanity. And look, the Old Testament was all
about the rules and regulations, right to be, to be
a better to become a better person, to become a
God fearing individual. The New Testament is about, okay, how
how we change up the game and how we you know,
we go from an eye for an eye to turn
the other cheek. We go from you know, you know, loving,
you know, honoring you know God, to loving and honoring
each other, you know, to do unto others as you
would have them do unto you, and to all these
things that that sort of contradictory, that are contradictory and
yet improve upon our humanity. And so when you go
back to Abraham, which for me was always a compelling
story because I remember when my son was born, asking myself,
if God asked me to do something like that, would
I do it? Could I do it? And I realized
a lot about that story particularly, and I'm glad because
you point this out in very specific terms, that there
was a Ram there to be sacrificed. I've always taken
that as Christ. I've always taken that that the ultimate
sacrifice was Christ himself. And so we are called into
that moment where our faith is tested, and then what
we what we realized that Christ is there, that that's
the sacrifice and so it was for me, it was
this real interesting the way you set that narrative in place,
the way you tell the story sort of in a different,
different interpretation about Joseph.
Speaker 1: Go ahead, but let me ask you, and I don't
know if I did this. I don't think I did
this in the book, and I should have. Is that
perhaps the thing is why would God ask you to sacrifice?
Speaker 3: You write the why in that why would why is that?
Speaker 1: And then when after the why, then you can sort
of figure out, like you know, how it plays out
in the Bible and why it's written the way it's written.
Speaker 3: But why would God ask you to do that?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: That's the thing I kept questioning while I was writing
this book, and then after my sister died, and even
trying to figure out why politics were infecting our faith
or religion. It's the why, right, why want us to
do that?
Speaker 3: Why was he? Why is he testing us? Why are
you doing this? Why is he testing us? What does
he want? And not exactly in the literal.
Speaker 1: Meaning of you go up, you sacrifice your child, you
come back down from the mountain.
Speaker 2: That's not it, right, It's not it no, that's not
it no, because because we do that all the time.
Speaker 1: Right right, Also in the you can't eat bacon, then
you can't eat shellfish, And it's like people get so
stuck in the actual literal thing instead of the why
what does this mean?
Speaker 3: Not that it's a law?
Speaker 2: Right, so you turn So you turn the page on
that and move us in the conversation when you you
make the point. In the evangelical world, resistance to change
is cast as steadfast blind acceptance of obsolete dogma is
praised as childlike faith. And that's the distortion. That's the disruption.
I think in a lot of respects. And you you talk,
you reference our buddy Tim Alberta in his book, which
I love his work in this space, Uh, you know
the kingdom, power and the glory where we have just
today in this modern era, our politics having and this
is the way I would interpret it. Our politics once
reflected our values, faith, traditions, religion, et cetera, are are
our culture. You know who we were as a nation,
right and all the struggles that came with that, and
and you know we would we would identify ourselves through
those things, and that would be reflected back through public
policy and and and our politics today it seems like
our politics has infected our faith journey, where now we
we we value our political alliances more than the teachings
of the Gospel, and that we are so lost that
we will actually create a graving uh and and false
image of God in the in the form of Donald
Trump as savior as Moses.
Speaker 1: But think about this when you talk when because I
write about guns and there are other things that I
write about.
Speaker 2: The Yes, that's why I was getting to go there
onuns have become a religion, yes right, And then we
we we turn things, as you said, our our political
ideologies into gods when so so I believe, and that
comes from really I think a lot from evangelicals and
the influence that they have on politics.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's of that those toxic teachings
are turning everything into a religion like guns, and that
people get so steadfast and so strident in their beliefs
and their ideology. I think that that is that is
pushing us towards a theocracy, and that theocracy is not
only pushing us further away from religion or God right,
pushing us further away from democracy right, And that is
the erasing of the line between Church and State, and
even in the you know, the the Abraham thing, there's
a lesson lesson in it for us right now. What's
happening now, and that is what are we willing to
sacrifice in order to have such literal, concrete interpretation of
our own ideologies.
Speaker 2: I put it after the most recent shooting. I put
it this way on air, and exactly to your point.
I said, we are we have now occupied the space
that we value in AR fifteen more than we value
the life of a six year old child.
Speaker 1: M hm.
Speaker 3: That's true.
Speaker 2: We will, we will, we will, we will burn the
country down to save that our that AR sixteen, through
our through the second Amendment in the Constitution.
Speaker 3: Are you really saving an AR fifteen, are you?
Speaker 1: Or is it that something else that's within you that
you're saving your Are you saving the actual physical ownership
of a gun? Yes, I would say in one way.
But I think it's also treating the Bible, treating the
Constitution as if it's the Bible, and the Bible as
if it's the Constitution.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, right right, And and it becomes
this literal, literal thing that you value more than anything
else and therefore interpret everything else through that. Yes, And
and that's that's the poison that I see permeating certainly
throughout my political party that has that it has strung
buggled against not just in the recent era of the
twenty this twenty first century, but it goes back to
the very early days of the twentieth century, where they're this,
this alliance is formed, that that there's a political advantage
born out of it that corrupts. And so I saw
it certainly in the mid eighties when Reagan cut his
bargain with the with the moral majority to secure his
political book.
Speaker 1: It's the it's the heritage foundation. Yeah, Pat Robinson's of
the World, was it? Roberts Robertson, Pett Robertson, Robertson.
Speaker 3: M Yeah. And so you're you're right about that.
Speaker 1: But also when you said that the twentieth century the beginning,
remember I write in the book about manifest destiny, where
all this.
Speaker 3: You know, just say, look we we are this is
a cree.
Speaker 1: That all of us, that Christians have dominion over all
of America. And you're like, wait, the Native Americans are like, wait,
what right?
Speaker 3: Because God deemed it so, and we said.
Speaker 2: White man speaks funny, what what do you?
Speaker 3: And look where we are now?
Speaker 2: Yes, look where we are now? Well, and that was illustrated.
I love the scene in the book with Ted. I
love that scene because it was really illustrative of of
what of what has always been a part of the
American narrative, that aspect of our faith journey with Ted. Yes,
in the Ted yeah the guy the where the when
you were walking down Fifth Avenue or Park Avenue with Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1: Tim, you know you know what I forget because it's Ted.
It's Ted, huh And we both know this gentleman. And
maybe I'll tell you afterwards who it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so yeah, So to set the scene for this,
it's really you were talking about walking down Park Avenue
and you were telling you started about talking about when
you and Tim are out together, how you're treated versus
how he's treated, How you're treated when you're walking your
dogs versus how he's treated when he's walking the dogs.
How how when you're when you're at dinner together, the
waiter will come up and give you the check because
of course the white man is the only one paying
this man.
Speaker 3: But if I have a suit on there just like oh,
you're the guy usually, but.
Speaker 1: If I don't, I'm like wearing a baseball cap or whatever.
I'm like, all right, come on right exactly.
Speaker 2: So there you go on. You talk about uh, running
into walking down the street and running into this individual
whom you will call ted, and you talk about as
you were approaching him, you you he obviously didn't recognize you. You go, hey,
it's Don Lemon, and he's like, oh oh, oh, oh Don,
oh my god, I'm so sorry. It's cold. So you know,
you know, you like you say it's cold, I have
my hood on, so I guess I'm scaring people, right.
Speaker 1: That's what she always fall back on that because you
got to do something because it's so awkward.
Speaker 2: Usually you know it's such but you go on in
that moment and you talk about how you know, but
for your saying, hey it's Don Lemon. He saw this
black man coming towards him with a hood on and
you say hey, and he was like.
Speaker 1: Not now, he said no, thank you, no, thank you.
That's right, as if I was.
Speaker 2: A panhandler or someone. And it's just it's such a
real expressive expressive moment because you go on and you
talk about, you know, quote, why am I apologizing for
keeping my ears warm. I got my hoodie on, right.
Why should I feel compelled to demonstrate how non threatening
I am? That compulsion runs deep for every black man.
I know. It doesn't matter if you're wearing a twelve
hundred dollars hoodie walking on Park Avenue with three little
dogs who look about as menacing as a Trio birthday
party balloon poodles. Ted's briefly startled reaction wasn't quantifiable as
traumatic in and of itself, But racial trauma is cumulative.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know what we think that we are.
Speaker 1: We think that we're used to it until it happens, right,
and then we make up all the excuses because it
happens to us so much.
Speaker 3: But am I used to it?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: I think it startled him more than it did me, right,
And I think because I have experience with it, I
was able to, you know, get passed the awkwardness.
Speaker 2: But you can make him less uncomfortable.
Speaker 3: Yes, and why am I doing that?
Speaker 2: But hey, why are you doing that?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: We both knew what was happening in the moment, and
like sorry, And then he asked me what I was
doing and I said, I'm writing a book, and he
said I'm what and I said God.
Speaker 3: He's like doubly, like, wait, what are you? And I
just remember when I got back to the.
Speaker 2: Yo ask going to be in it.
Speaker 3: No, I didn't think about it. I didn't even think
about it.
Speaker 1: And the thing is is that he probably would not
have been into it in the book had I not
been on the phone with the book collaborator, right. And
I was walking and she's like, you know, I got
your notes. You want to go through some of the
stuff that you sent me and let's talk about him
where you should place it in blah blah blah. And
I'm talking and I'm walking the dogs and I'm like whatever.
And then she hears all of this and records it
going on. And when he walked away, I went back
to the thing, saying, okay, so maybe I think we
should do this, and then put the chapter.
Speaker 3: She goes, wait, hold on, what just happened? You talk
about that?
Speaker 1: And for me, I was just like, oh, well, this
should happens all the time, So I didn't even think
it was a thing.
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. I
do very much know what you mean.
Speaker 1: And then I got back to the hotel. And I
didn't realize that My fiance then husband now said so
much for that that uh Bruno Cucinelli sweater that you're
so hi, I'm buying from Burgdorfs, And I'm like yeah,
And I realized, like this, you know this. People think
that money and uh, your position or whatever protects you
from racism.
Speaker 2: Doesn't.
Speaker 1: It doesn't does not having those experiences. It may offer you,
you know, a bit of cushion because you know what
I'm saying, but it doesn't protect you from it.
Speaker 3: It's everywhere. I forgot about that.
Speaker 2: That was It was a great scene in the book,
and it does speak a lot to certainly for someone
like myself. I mean, I'm much older than you are, and.
Speaker 3: You're not, Michael, You're not that much older than me.
You think.
Speaker 1: Everybody just thinks I'm twelve because I've had so much
plastic surgery.
Speaker 3: I have not had.
Speaker 2: Look, you haven't gotten the cat eyes yet, so that's
good stuff. You got a good surgeon.
Speaker 3: I haven't gotten anything yet. But everything works. Forehead still works,
all that.
Speaker 1: But I think that you know, I don't want people
because you know that'll be in the New York Post.
Speaker 2: Of course, of course, right, two Black men discussing their
cosmetic surgery. So, what What's God's plan next for you? You?
You've you've put you've put on put on paper. I
think a journey that was well worth worth telling, and
it is a faith journey in all respects. And you've
you've weathered a lot of changes recently, uh in in
your life. And as you know, at one point, you know,
you were at this spot where it was all kind
of clicking and working, and then all of a sudden
it wasn't. And we've all been in that space and
to the point the story of Ted for African Americans,
that disruption oftentimes leads to a deep fall because we
don't have a lot of ladders around us that as
we're falling we can grab a wrung and hold on
and start to pull ourselves back up. It tends to.
Speaker 3: Be following that the right has yes, right.
Speaker 2: But the one thing that has always and you've referred
to this already, the one thing that has sustained our
journey from sixteen nineteen to the present day, has been faith.
What So, what do you think God's plan for you
as you as you consider your faith in the journey
you're on what do you think's next? How do you
see that playing out?
Speaker 1: I think I would be defying what I think my
faith is if I had if I tried to tell
you what I think God's plan is for me, because
right now we don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Point of having faith, and so.
Speaker 1: Wherever I am, I enjoy it and I think that
God's plan for me now is right here, and then
I'll fit.
Speaker 3: The next thing will come.
Speaker 1: But I have to tell you, you know, as I write
about all of these things about you know, dealing with
the depression that comes after you know, getting fired or whatever.
Nothing that that I didn't overcome, but just having an
awareness of those things.
Speaker 3: If I had not been for this faith that I have.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be here. Yeah, right, I wouldn't be here
talking to you. I'm not saying that I would be
gone from the earth. That is a possibility, especially if
you let your depression overcome you.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It's a loved one. And by the way, I'm sorry
for the loss of your mom.
Speaker 2: No, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if I had let the grief and the depression
overcome me, you know, when my sister died or which
was a real grief and depression. I remember being on
a I went to the Time one Hunter Things Michael
right after I got fired from CNN, and they said,
how do you feel about losing your job?
Speaker 3: And I said, well, I didn't lose my job. I
lost my sister.
Speaker 1: I lost me, but I lost my sister And that
was a much deeper grief and pain and depression than
this will.
Speaker 3: Ever be or could ever be.
Speaker 1: So what's God's plan for me? God's plan for me
is his plan, and I'm going to let him let
it unfold in my life.
Speaker 2: And that's the rule I follow every day. People look
at me and go, so, what are you doing next?
Speaker 3: I was like, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I wake up tomorrow morning, I'll be told.
Speaker 3: Isn't that great? Isn't that great?
Speaker 2: It's great?
Speaker 4: And you know what's great about it, don It's freeing
as hell. It is the freest thing in the world.
To get up and just experience the day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and experience life as it unfolds in front of
That drives my wife a little bit crazy. She's like, Okay,
you're a little bit too loose on the feeling the day.
So because I need I need, I got three things
I need you to do.
Speaker 3: So, and you're not. When's your birthday? Are you a Pisces?
Speaker 2: I'm a Libra baby.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, oh wait a minute. Did you just have
a birthday?
Speaker 2: It's coming up in October.
Speaker 3: Oh it is, that's right.
Speaker 2: I think October nineteenth.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and my mom is October sixth.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you're late. You're almost in the cusp.
Speaker 2: Almost, So I got I got a little bit of
that extra in the back end. But yeah, but most
of my life is seeking balance and just letting it
flow and come in and and yeah. It drives my
Pisce's wife a little bit nuts. I mean, my wife
is my sister's a pisces. My wife is a tars.
Speaker 1: Oh oh, oh, strongly, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: You know what his brother is always like in the
zin position, because you have to be, I have to be.
Speaker 3: I have to make a LAWD knows.
Speaker 2: Jesus LAWD knows.
Speaker 1: Michael, Can I ask you? But you've had do you
mind if I ask you? Can I switch sure?
Speaker 2: No, let's switch up. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1: So you have had a you know from I don't
know if you remember the first time we met, and
it was years ago.
Speaker 3: I interviewed you in your office and you were head
of the RNC then in d C. Were you in
d C?
Speaker 2: In d C or on Capitol Hill? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Did you have your own office somewhere else? Was it
in Virginia? Was it in d C?
Speaker 2: It was in d C, d C?
Speaker 3: Okay, yep and so And I believe that same.
Speaker 1: Week because I was on a series, I interviewed Colin Powell,
and I think it was going to do like black leaders,
and you were one of them.
Speaker 3: And you're always a good guy.
Speaker 1: But you have evolved and you've changed and you've allowed that,
which I think is a sign of an intelligent person.
It's like when you get new information facts, when you
get new evidence, you evolve and you're not strident in
your belief as I believe.
Speaker 3: The folks who are the folks who are part of.
Speaker 1: The Maga cult now who are part of the Maga
cult are doing they are. They can't change because it's
a cult. They have to be deprogrammed.
Speaker 3: And you were never there.
Speaker 1: But I'm just had an evolution and you never allowed
yourself to get bogged down in the crazy conspiracy theories,
and you saw your party going off the edge, and
then you have this your your mom dies and there
you have this crisis.
Speaker 3: What has that been like for you? Because that's a
lot I think.
Speaker 2: Yes, as I said, a beginning, and.
Speaker 1: You're seen, for God's sake, it's not like a fox,
but I mean I think you'd be.
Speaker 2: It's not just coffee in this cup.
Speaker 3: Let me right, right, right right.
Speaker 2: I celebrate New Year's every day. Baby, at ten o'clock am,
I'm starting, It's a new day. You know that that's
a that's a next question. My mother, Uh that that
story is and I probably should write it. I have
the title of the book in my head and it's
just in my heart. I just it's Maybel and Me
or Maybell's Son, which is a little bit more accurate.
It's just she she told me how to be free
of a lot of crazy stuff. I grew up in
d C at a time where you know, she couldn't
take me to parks in d C because they were
for white only. We couldn't shop at certain stores. And
in this environment, she she taught me a love for
a country that didn't love back right, and she taught
me to be an independent thinker. She always stressed that
always think for yourself. She said, never follow the crowd.
Never follow the crowd, because you are your own leader,
and if you do it right, others will follow you.
You don't, and and then then then learn how to
be responsible and accountable and all this stuff, man just
came at me, and I just found it. I just
found it easier not to get caught up in other
people stupid and be in a situation. One thing is,
I always hate it. When I was at the RNC,
and even when I was a lieutenant governor was explaining
someone else's behavior, I'm like, what I knew that shit
they did? Why are you asking me? But you need
to go talk to them. I didn't do it, And
what does it matter what my opinion is of what
they did right, you know? And and so that I've
always sort of resisted that of it. And thank you
for recognizing the sense of always being open to new
information and new thoughts even when it even when it
doesn't sit well with what you think you believe. And
that's why there were a lot of lessons in your
book about challenging yourself with new information, challenging your faith,
because that's the hardest thing, the hardest. I believe this,
this is what I have faith then, right, and there
are times where I think God caused us to even
challenge ourselves on that right. I'm putting this in front
of you, but you know it's up to you. That
free will thing is a bit okay.
Speaker 3: Can I ask you another thing?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Still a Republican, Yes I am, because it pisses
them off.
Speaker 3: You are not whether a Republican party has become.
Speaker 2: I know, and that's that I stand. I stand. So
I'm glad you said that because one thing I wanted
to get into with with you at a certain aspects
of the book, which aligned with my training as a seminarian,
when I was talking before about a dying to self.
The other thing, one of the reasons why we wear
religious habits, one of the reasons why we wear the crucifix,
one of the reasons why we have these symbols that
that we put out as outward signs, is that we
must be a sign of contradiction to the world. And
so my faith journey, whenever I would go out in
my habit, I knew in that moment I was being
a sign to the world of something important, something possible,
not just being in a religious community or going through
all of those machinations, but this sense of loving loving
others purely and openly without fear. You know, I love
you as a brother in Christ, whether I know you
or not, right, and that's important, that's an important sign
that we should all be willing to share with each other.
And yet, to points that you make very clearly in
the book, we we've allowed our politics, we've allowed our
lack of faith, our lack of belief in ourselves, let
alone others, to become the thing that is rotting us
from within. And so it's easier to sort of hold
on to that than to be that sign of contradiction man,
to to go out there and live the Gospel life
in the Gospel Team in a way that others see
that and appreciate it for what it is, and it
made it may at some point called them to that. Right,
so that love of another neighbor the way you are loved.
Speaker 1: So can ask another question, sure, okay, so when you look,
we've got come so far from you. Remember when you
know people would say, oh my god, George Bush is
the worst.
Speaker 2: And right, right?
Speaker 1: I remember, well, I wonder if perhaps then that you
were exactly what the Republican Party needed and I say
that I preface a question with this, right, because this
is like a you know, maybe I'm soft pealing a
little bit, right, I'm trying to. I'm wondering how you
feel when you see people like Mark Robinson not he
I mean, that's the extreme. And then you see Byron
Donald's and then you see Tim Scott, right, all of
these guys sort of who are black men and have
a certain relationship as with the country, with America. And
you know, I don't believe there's a more unique relationship
with America than African Americans.
Speaker 2: Right, agreed.
Speaker 3: The second or one of similar.
Speaker 1: Would be Native Americans being brought here as slaves and
treated the way we were.
Speaker 3: We have a unique relationship to this country.
Speaker 1: As I write in the book, as a black man,
I have a unique relationship, a problematic relationship with the flag, right,
but I love it, right, I love it for what
it stands for. And as a gay man, I have
a complex, say complicated. I have a complicated relationship.
Speaker 3: With the Bible. Right. And you see.
Speaker 1: People conducting themselves in that way, especially considering our relationship
to America and what this particular individual and movement is
doing to the country.
Speaker 3: What do you think about that? How does that make
you feel like someone?
Speaker 2: It pisses me off. It pisses me off. There are
a few terms I could use that I think are
fuller expression of what I think of their behavior and
think of them. I think you would know what those are.
I'm at once very disappointed because that's not how our
journey should end, given our history. That I've always believed
and still believe that African Americans, Native Americans especially are
uniquely called to this country to be, to be that
that light that shows the value of the words written
in parchment by the founders. Right. And I recently gave
a talk, and I it was a room full of
African Americans and women and across section of folks, and
I looked at I said, we all know that these
words weren't written for us. They weren't written for many
of the people in this room. But the beauty of
this journey is that we now own those words. They're ours,
and we are a fuller expression of those words than
the founders could ever imagine. And so it is incumbent
on us to be an example of those words at
all times, because we know they weren't for us. But
now they we have them. They're ours, right, We are
the people that are part and parcel of forming this
more per vic union. Yeah baby, this is our ish too, right.
We got this. So when I see, especially black men,
behave in a way that tarnishes that legacy of ours,
that gives in to the ill treatment of the Black experience,
that advocate for the enslavement of their own people, it
is regretful. It is disappointing. It brings shame on the community,
and their place at the table should be removed until
they learn better. Go sit your ass in the corner
until you work out your shit, because right now you
messing it up for the rest of us, and you confused.
And the last thing we need is confused white people.
We need clarity in their eyes to see what our
experience since sixteen nineteen has meant to this country. So
we don't need you out here advocating burning books. We
don't need you out here advocating for black people to
be enslaved because you want to own one. We don't
need you out here, you know, saying all this stuff
about gay and lesbian people and trans people when you're
out there looking at transport. We don't need you out
here with your bullshit talking about how much you love
Donald Trump. Used to take your ass in the corner
and you work that shit out, and then you were
good to come back to the table and work with
the rest of us to improve this country, to live
up to the words that are written on that parchment.
Speaker 3: I was angry. Sure, I'd say, Michael Steele everyone.
Speaker 2: And you just did.
Speaker 3: Michael. You said that on Joe. Wow, that would cause
a stir. I try to say it.
Speaker 2: But I had that can't use it the words that
I'd like to really just emphasize the point.
Speaker 1: But you know I do. Look, I do it, and
that's why you hear my own independence in my own studio.
Speaker 2: But you know what, ownership is a beautiful thing, baby,
beautiful thing. Right. It's I'm loving the set. That's nice.
That's very nice, everybody. Don Lemon one hell of a
fond brother who's written and I think again, a very
personal and important book. I once was lost.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: It is his journey, but it's also ours, and I
appreciate you coming on and sharing it. Man. That that's
I was really excited about. When I was telling me
you were coming on, I was like, yes, as my producer.
So is that happen to be like soon? He was like, yeah,
next week, I'm look good. I was really excited man
to have you on.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, folks, that does it for our little
time together in this conversation. You know, I always love
it when you do those things you have to do
to show your love. Download talk about it, like it,
slip it, whip it, make it work. I appreciate it
every time. Do check out the good work of Don Lemon.
You can follow him on Twitter at Don Lemon. You
should because he puts some some good stuff there. Now
you've got your own studio platform. Now tell us a
thing about that. That's on YouTube the Don Lemon Shows.
I think you can go YouTube.
Speaker 1: Dot com, slash or YouTube dot com at the Don
Lemon Show. You can follow me. My TikTok is crazy.
I get like sometimes millions of things. It's so interesting
being I get more people watching me on TikTok than watch.
Speaker 3: Me on CNN. Yes, yes, on Instagram.
Speaker 1: And you know you saw my journey to the convention
and back when I viewed all those people and then
this is.
Speaker 3: What I think you guys are just talking about this.
I've been talking about.
Speaker 1: Black men supporting Donald Trump ever and that would have
and I show it and then all of a sudden,
now they're like, I see the people on the morning
talking about old black you know, the black I'm like,
I've been saying this where hello, I'm right here. So yeah,
check out my YouTube channel and check out my social
I'm really having a good time doing it. Not only
that I'm informing people so and it's resonating.
Speaker 2: So it's good. And the other part that I love
that makes it a lot of fun is, folks, he's
still Don lemonon. Yes, he's still Don Lemon and it's
it's New Year's Eve every day. I love it.