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Are you feeling Lucky. 29 00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:58.200 No, We're just necessary foid ware. 30 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:00.320 My long eighteen plus terms and conditions plus you want every. 31 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:11.480 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 32 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:14.599 killers in true crime History and the authors that have 33 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:21.959 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every 34 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:25.680 Week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 35 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:29.959 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 36 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:33.719 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 37 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:46.560 Good Evening. What happens when ordinary people in real life 38 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:50.840 murder clubs set out to investigate crimes, both recent and 39 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:55.280 cold cases. The Netflix hit Don't Fuck with Cats was 40 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:58.760 based on the twenty twelve Montreal murder of thirty three 41 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:04.079 year old Lyn John by his porn star boyfriend Luca Magnauta. Previously, 42 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:08.560 Magnata had anonymously posted videos of himself killing kittens. This 43 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:13.639 spurred horrified Facebook Sluice into working tirelessly to uncover his 44 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:18.840 identity and location. Other investigations include a self taught forensic 45 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:22.800 artist who uses computer software and coroners photographs to help 46 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:26.639 identify victims by showing how they looked when alive, The 47 00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:29.680 mother who swore at her murdered daughter's graveside that she 48 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:32.680 would get the gang who had sprayed her car with bullets. 49 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:35.759 It took fourteen years in the case of one gang member, 50 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:38.919 but she finally entrapped him via the fake profile she 51 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:43.240 created on MySpace. The retail clerk turned citizen sleuth who 52 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:45.639 helped to match a photo of a missing man to 53 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:48.520 a skull found in a bucket, which resulted in the 54 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:52.719 conviction of the victim's best friend. Web Sleuth's matched the 55 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:56.319 IP address of a suspicious contributor to a lottery winning 56 00:02:56.400 --> 00:02:59.759 victim's financial advisor, which led to his body being found 57 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:03.879 Beneathan newly Ford concrete slab in his advisor's boyfriend's garden. 58 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:07.879 Sometimes citizen sleuthing goes wrong, though, with innocent people being 59 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:12.719 targeted or accused of crimes they haven't committed, with tragic results. 60 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.599 The real life version of Richard Osman's The Thursday Murder 61 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:21.719 Club is grittier, with intrepid amateur investigators delving into truly gruesome, 62 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:25.840 unsolved crimes in pursuit of justice. The book that we're 63 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:29.400 featuring this evening is The Real Life Murder Clubs Citizens 64 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:33.319 Solving true crimes with My special guest journalists and author 65 00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:36.840 Nicola Stowe. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 66 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:40.840 much for this interview. Nikola Stowe, thank you, thank you 67 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:44.919 so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book. All thanks 68 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:48.439 don Now, let's first talk about because I wasn't familiar 69 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:51.560 with the name Richard Osman, tell us who Richard Osman 70 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:56.199 is and what is the Thursday Murder Club and you 71 00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:59.960 were asked to write this book and so what were 72 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:03.639 you surprised with in this regard with the Thursday Murder 73 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.439 Club and your real life Murder Club book. 74 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:11.919 So I was asked to write this book obviously by 75 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.680 Adli Publishers. The idea of being Richard Osman is a 76 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:19.839 TV presenter who had a wonderful selling book out novel 77 00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:22.279 called The Thursday Murder Club, which is about a group 78 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:26.600 of pensioners living in a retirement village and there's a 79 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:29.680 murder and they set about trying to solve the crime 80 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:32.079 and they have a Thursday Murder Club where they all 81 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:36.839 grouped together. So the idea behind the real life murder Clubs, 82 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:40.240 Citizens Sold and True Crimes was to find the real 83 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:44.720 life citizen sloops, people that actually spend their time like 84 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:48.439 their spare time around jobs searching the internet and trying 85 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:52.160 to identified bodies and sold cold cases. 86 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:56.519 So what did you find from the fictitious murder clubs 87 00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:00.040 with this group of people that were surprising in the 88 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:05.120 very beginning of this investigation into real life citizens solving crimes. 89 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:09.399 Yeah, it was a lot grittier, I must say. It 90 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:12.519 wasn't like cozy like it's portrayed in the novel. But 91 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:14.759 then that's you know, that's the novel, and these people 92 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:20.399 are serious, tenacious, and dedicated. What I found particularly poignant 93 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:24.279 was how people how the sleeves got into doing this. 94 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:28.800 They often had personal reasons for doing so. Like Billinda 95 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:31.279 Lane that we're going to be speaking about daughter was 96 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:35.120 shot and killed, and so that inspired her to go 97 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:38.160 on a decade long mission to find her daughter's killers. 98 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:41.240 Now you say that you were hugely impressed by the 99 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:47.519 skills and impressed by their skills and vast forensic knowledge, 100 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.639 and you've spoke to many of these people. Now let's 101 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:54.680 introduce these citizens Sloves via the contents of this book. 102 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:58.319 You have. The first chapter is why did you kill her? 103 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:01.000 And so we just mentioned you alluded to the Belinda 104 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:04.319 and the crime of her daughter Crystal being shot. 105 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:08.000 Yes, that's right. So that's the first chapter in the book. Yeah, 106 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:11.680 I found this really poignant and it was incredible the 107 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:13.360 investigations she did tell. 108 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:17.000 Us about Crystal Theobald and March eight, two thousand and 109 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:19.519 six in Riverside, California. 110 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:23.160 Yeah. So Crystal Theobold was a mother of two. She 111 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:26.879 had two young daughters and a training nurse. One day, 112 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:30.240 she's with her mum, Belinda Lane, and her brother and 113 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:34.160 their friend one Patlan, and they decided one evening to 114 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:35.399 go to the seven eleven. 115 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:36.439 It was just sort of. 116 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:40.680 Five minute drive away in Riverside, so they left. Belinda 117 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:44.959 went in her own car and Crystal, brother Justin, and 118 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:48.160 one were in another car following, and there was three 119 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:50.240 of them. There's three seats in the front and Crystals 120 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:53.480 in the middle. One was driving. Belinda gets to the 121 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:56.959 intersection and all of a sudden, a white fud expedition 122 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.839 in suv comes screeching around the corner. Her to swerve 123 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:04.560 and stop. She then see a guy that looks youngish, 124 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:08.439 a baby face she called him, possibly Hispanic, who gets 125 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:11.519 out of the suv and holds a gun. He pulls 126 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:14.319 the gun out and goes to she ducks down in 127 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:16.279 the car, thinking he's going to shoot her, but then 128 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:19.399 she just hears this explosion of glass and at five 129 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:23.639 bullets exploding. When she looks up that the SUV's sped 130 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:27.000 off and the car her daughter's in goes off down 131 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:31.040 the road. She tries to follow, loses them and to 132 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:32.800 cut that part of the story, so she ends up 133 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.319 going back home and the police are already there. Son 134 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:38.439 comes running up the street, her son, Nicholas, saying Crystal's 135 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:42.319 been shot. So she ended up on a Crystal ended 136 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:46.000 up on a life support machine and sadly, the medics 137 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:48.800 said her brain had died, and Belinda had to make 138 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:51.319 that awful decision that no mother should have to make, 139 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:54.160 to tell them to turn the machine off. Crystal died 140 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:57.199 in Belinda's arms in the hospital, and she made a 141 00:07:57.279 --> 00:07:59.519 vow to a daughter, I'm going to get the people 142 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:02.040 that killed and are going to make them pay. So 143 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:04.560 that was what she said about doing. And then she 144 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:07.319 set up with a niece, Jamie. She was at just 145 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:10.079 fourteen at the time. They set up a MySpace account. 146 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:14.279 Initially there's a girl called Rachel and they've found members 147 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:17.079 of the fifty one fifty gang who they suspected was 148 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:20.959 behind the shooting, and there'd been a rumor that they 149 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.839 were looking for rival, a member of a rival gang 150 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:27.079 who was threatening to kill one of their members, and 151 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:30.079 they were allegedly in a similar car to what Crystal 152 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:32.759 and Judio and Justin werein. 153 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:36.320 Yeah, so what happens is that she does, along with 154 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:42.480 her nephew or niece, set up this predecessor to Facebook MySpace, yes, 155 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:46.200 and set up this profile attracting these fifty one fifty 156 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:49.840 members gang members to be attracted to this profile in 157 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:53.120 this well the state profile and photo that's right, But Belinda, 158 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:57.120 being who she is, she gets sort of impatient and 159 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:01.879 somehow decides to post her dodge Crystal's photo on another 160 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:05.639 profile and then approach these fifty one fifty And also 161 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.399 there's an interaction with a detective as well, tell us 162 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:12.799 the lengths that she goes to be able to pursue 163 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:17.279 this person that she believes is driving the vehicle in 164 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:19.399 which the killers shot her daughter. 165 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:22.519 Yeah, so she knew that obviously suspected that this gang 166 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.440 was behind the shooting, and it's a mistake. So she 167 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:28.919 finds a name for the person she believes to be 168 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:33.360 the getaway driver, who was William known as Joke Stella Stello, 169 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:38.120 and she basically under this profile that they used Crystal's 170 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.519 picture and called her Angel as she starts befriending this 171 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:46.879 William Ctello and the dialogue continues, she's getting angry and 172 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.840 angry because she went to Detective Rick Wheeler who was 173 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:54.159 investigating the case, and they did get Ctello into questioning 174 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:57.440 after she he had Bitteres that he drove a Ford 175 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:00.840 expedition at White SUV, so he went. He was called 176 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:03.360 in for question but they didn't have enough evidence, so 177 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:06.600 they had to let him go. So Belinda continued and 178 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:10.000 it's becoming even more frustrating. Obviously, she even got to 179 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:13.519 the point where you know, it became justice and revenge 180 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:16.399 became quite blurred, and she she had a gun, and 181 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:19.320 she even set up a party called the End of 182 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:22.399 Life's Party on the sixth, the sixth, two thousand and six, 183 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:24.799 and she was going to lure to Tello and other 184 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:27.879 gang members to this remote location with the idea being 185 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:32.559 to kill them. But luckily that didn't happen. And eventually, 186 00:10:32.759 --> 00:10:36.039 like everything just before that party was due to happen 187 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:40.320 but didn't, she confronted Setello on MySpace, and yeah, that's 188 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:42.919 where she was. She basically said, do you know who 189 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:46.679 you're talking to? You know, I'm Crystals, theobold. You murdered me. 190 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:49.679 Why did you kill me? And he didn't respond to that, 191 00:10:49.879 --> 00:10:51.519 and then he disappeared. 192 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:54.519 Right when he had originally spoken to police though he 193 00:10:55.080 --> 00:11:01.360 had incriminated this Julio Heridia, and so the police were 194 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:05.639 working with that lead, unbeknownst to Belinda, and she had 195 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:08.759 confronted this Sotello and he went on the run. 196 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:09.240 That's right. 197 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:13.399 She had contacted this Detective Wheeler and he had basically 198 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.559 at one point told her to back off. But anyway, 199 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:20.840 she continued to work and continued to look for this 200 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:21.919 Sotello as well. 201 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:26.039 Yeah, that's correct, and her radio was the actual gunman 202 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:28.559 and he actually got life in prison without parole in 203 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:33.000 twenty eleven, but that happened later after he got lot. 204 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:36.799 He did the death penalty. Was Belinda did fight for 205 00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:39.159 that at the time and then changed her mind. Yeah, 206 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:42.440 but then she Soletto went on the run, as you say, 207 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:46.720 and it wasn't until twenty fourteen when she had a breakthrough. 208 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:50.559 She by this point handed the MySpace account back to 209 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:55.960 Detective Wheeler. Meanwhile identified two other gang members who were brothers, 210 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:00.720 William and Manuel Limas. They actually gave information on Heredia 211 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:03.799 about the gunman for immunity and then and then Herredio 212 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:08.240 was jailed. But the twenty fourteen breakthrough came when she 213 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:10.840 was Belinda was searching on Facebook and she was still 214 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:13.679 looking for Catello and she was searching on Facebook and 215 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:17.440 found a profile of him. He was using Crystal's picture 216 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.279 but had using a different name. So she went to 217 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.799 a detective Wheeler with this information, but he said, like, 218 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:25.960 he's in Mexico, but he said, we can't, you know, 219 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:30.000 we can't do anything without an address for him. And anyway, 220 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:32.919 she managed to get an address through some beauce that 221 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:36.960 she met on this profile, and they captured in Mexico 222 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:39.919 in twenty sixteen and there's led to him. He pleaded 223 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:45.080 guilty to voluntary manslaughter and gang on firearms charges in 224 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:49.240 like a plea bargaining with prosecutors and was sentenced to 225 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:50.600 life without parole. 226 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:54.399 Right and very interesting too that two people were given 227 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:57.600 life sentences with no parole and this person that she 228 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:01.559 started right to the end the drive got twenty two years. 229 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:05.360 So she was very very successful in her sleuthing. 230 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:08.879 Yeah, definitely. Yeah, you know, she never wanted to give up. 231 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:12.600 She admits became become quite dangerously scared herself, you know, 232 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:15.200 when she was trying to learn them earlier on in 233 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.360 the investigation. But no, and she now helps other people. 234 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:22.200 She's got a Facebook group, So yeah, I reckon she'll 235 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:25.639 go on to maybe get some results in other cases, hopefully. 236 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:30.000 In the contents to your next chapter is the world's 237 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:35.639 first cyber Sleuth and you s like Kerryville, Campbell County, Tennessee, 238 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:41.720 Autumn two thousand and nine and Todd Matthews's Citizen Sleuth 239 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.600 just briefly tell us a little bit about what kind 240 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:50.000 of sleuthing is employed here in this citizen Sleuth story. 241 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.519 Yeah, so Todd Matthews, he was in spite of it 242 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:57.799 because he's younger. Robin's sister died when they're just like babies. 243 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:00.399 He liked the fact that he would go and see 244 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:04.080 their names on the graves. But his stephan came about 245 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:07.840 when he met his well who became his future wife, 246 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:10.720 Laurie Riddle, And they were at school one day and 247 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:13.519 they were telling like Halloween stories, and she told a 248 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:17.320 story about how a dad Wilber was founder body in 249 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.559 the canvas tent bag and the woman she was believed 250 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.480 to have been the aged between sixteen and nineteen, and 251 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:26.639 she was completely decayed and she was never identified as 252 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:28.799 she just became known as Tent Girl. He found her 253 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:32.399 in nineteen sixty eight and Todd Matthews became obsessed with 254 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:36.080 this story and consumed him for over a decade. He 255 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:40.639 managed to identify her eventually. But yeah, he's very much 256 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:44.399 into giving people their names. He likes mysteries and finds it, 257 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:46.399 you know, like some of these cases where people haven't 258 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:49.279 been like the case of tenth Girl identified for years. 259 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:51.679 But to give people back their name, it means a 260 00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:52.279 lot to Todd. 261 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:56.799 Absolutely. You talk about the third chapter is my first soul? 262 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:58.919 Yes, that's Ellen Leech. 263 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:04.440 And tell us what contribution she has as a citizens. 264 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:08.279 Yes, so Allen Leech. She works at hobby center hoobby 265 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:12.600 Lobby it's called, and she spends hours like checking the 266 00:15:12.600 --> 00:15:17.919 internet for missing people and unidentified bodies. So one evening 267 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:21.039 and her journey started really in two thousand and four 268 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:23.799 when she was she got home from work and she's 269 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:26.799 spending the night looking on the internet for clues that 270 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:29.960 might match around identified bodies to miss in person cases. 271 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:33.000 But she found herself drawn to a picture uploaded to 272 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:35.679 the dough Network, which is actually set up Todd Matthews 273 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:38.600 was a co founder of It's a List of Unidentified 274 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:42.840 People and the image this image showed a reconstruction by 275 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.159 Jack Bender of a head that belonged to a man 276 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:48.120 in his fifties who had been murdered. So she looked 277 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.480 at this picture and she was drawn back to it. 278 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:53.759 But she was also interested in this story about a 279 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:57.960 head been found in a bucket outside a Lorry layby, 280 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.399 and she because this reconstruction been done and the picture 281 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.159 of the missing person she'd seen, she it reminded her 282 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:07.399 of this missing person she'd seen, and she that they 283 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.080 managed to identify this guy that she didn't match them 284 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:12.000 up eventually. 285 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:17.120 Yes, it's an extraordinary story. Your fourth chapter is we 286 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:19.799 can I'd like to discuss further because she's such an 287 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.519 important person and well known, and this is the title 288 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.120 is web Slues, And yeah, you take us to how 289 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:31.559 she became involved in being a citizen Slouth Murray, Utah, 290 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.759 September nineteen seventy four Bisha Griffith and the Fashion Place 291 00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:39.360 Mall and Tricia Griffith is just fifteen years old, tell 292 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.600 us how she comes to be a citizen Slouth. 293 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:46.120 Yeah, so this when she went to the fashion place 294 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:49.120 small in Utah. She was her first trip to them 295 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:52.360 all alone without her mother, and she'd given her money 296 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:55.879 to buy clothes for going back to school September time. 297 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.519 So she's very excited, obviously, and she's a brother drops 298 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:02.159 her off there and she walks through one of the 299 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.720 first department stores, and then she's approached by this terribly 300 00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:09.359 attractive man who's just really handsome. And she described herself 301 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:12.039 as being boy crazy at the time. And he approaches 302 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.480 her and asks her for directions to a shop said 303 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:18.759 CMI was, and she says, no, let's not here. It's 304 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:21.839 in Cottonwood, More, which is like about a ten minute 305 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.880 drive away from here. So he's walking along with her, 306 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:28.519 chatting to her, and she's quite taken, quite smitten by 307 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:31.640 this guy because he's so handsome. And then he says, well, 308 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:33.519 I've got my car, why don't you come with me? 309 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:36.160 You can direct me to them all. So alarm bell 310 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.039 started ringing Patricia and she managed to get away. She 311 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:42.920 fortunately she saw her cousin at the mall and she 312 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:45.599 phoned her brother and he came to collect her, although 313 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:47.720 he wanted to go after this guy. He's brought a 314 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:51.039 hammer with him, so that sort of you know, that 315 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.519 happened and it shook her up, but she didn't think 316 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:56.319 any more of it until a few years later when 317 00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:59.640 she saw an article in the newspaper like the seventh 318 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:03.119 Faces of Ted Bundy, and she recognized him as the 319 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:05.200 guy that approached her at the mall. So she did 320 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:08.359 ring law enforcement and report this, but obviously they you know, 321 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:11.839 she she just felt the incredible guilt after that, because 322 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:16.440 not long after Tricia's incident, Carol Durnch was approached by 323 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:19.640 Ted Bundy at the same mall, right, and she posed 324 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.200 as a police officer then said that it was something 325 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:23.720 wrong with her car. They needs to go to the 326 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:26.480 police station and she probably no got her into her 327 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:30.279 car and ended up like taking her to a remote spot, 328 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.440 trying to handcuff her and threatened to blow her head 329 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:35.680 off and pulled out a gun and then she got 330 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:37.720 out the car and he chased them with a crowbar, 331 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:39.519 but she did get you know, she get away, but 332 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:42.039 he did get jailed for that. Yeah, So when she 333 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:45.200 you know, she just felt terribly guilty Trisha for not 334 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.759 speaking up at the time, but obviously she didn't know 335 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.640 it was Ted Bundy. So that kind of got her 336 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:54.960 into to sleuth and that and the Jean Bernet case 337 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.880 as well that she round back the end. It was 338 00:18:57.920 --> 00:18:59.960 just the time, as you know, start of the inn 339 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.519 I ran about nineteen ninety eight, so she had like 340 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:07.200 an old fashioned dialogue, yeah, but she did end up 341 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:10.200 like joining it. She found like this forum about John 342 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:14.400 Benet Ramsey and she she started like typing on there, 343 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:17.279 and then that led her to set up forums for 344 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:21.200 justice dot Org, which was, you know, like another sleeping 345 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:25.720 forum that's to discredit scandale accusations that were going on luggage, 346 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:28.160 which of course would do happen online. But then it 347 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:31.039 was so then she always had this massive, interesting true 348 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:35.640 crime but the Ted Bundy situation did inspire her the most, 349 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:38.440 something she's never forgotten. And then in two thousand and 350 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:42.880 four she bought the webs forum and this yeah, it's 351 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:45.279 got over two hundred thousand members I think now. 352 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:50.160 And you researched and discovered what kinds of people make 353 00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:54.400 up this diverse group of people, and what kinds of 354 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:58.319 people are on these kinds of this site in particular. 355 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:00.279 Yeah, it's a it's a kind of mixed. I mean 356 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:02.440 some people are you know, like ed and Leaps. They 357 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:05.160 do their day job and this is just something that 358 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:08.319 intrigues them that they do in their spare time. You know, 359 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.640 they might not have any that law enforcement background or 360 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:13.599 anything like that, but you do get like some like 361 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:19.000 retired detectives or lawyers, nurses, They had a forensic handwriting 362 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:21.960 expert as a member. So yeah, it all walks a 363 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:22.599 life really. 364 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.119 You also talk about another case that was really instrumental 365 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:30.799 in making web explode, and that was Keighley's Anthony's death. 366 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:35.920 And also you write about the Florida Sunshine Lawn and 367 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:39.720 what that meant to a group like webs especially at 368 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:44.240 the time of Casey Hilley Anthony's death and Casey Anthony 369 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:44.920 being accused. 370 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:49.480 Yeah, the law means that the police have to give 371 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:53.440 over handover all evidence unless there's a special reason for 372 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:55.960 not doing so. So they had a lot of access 373 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.119 to records. Certainly is the case in America or so 374 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:02.079 then over here anyway, So yeah, that was one of 375 00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:06.039 the biggest cases on websites. Tricia said. The Kaylie Anthony case. 376 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.880 They found they did look that they did like a 377 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:12.680 ping map. They managed to prove that Anthony wasn't where 378 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.559 she was like I said, tracking the phone calls when 379 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.880 she said she was. They found another on a she 380 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:23.240 searched another major search for full proof suffocation on another 381 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:26.559 search engine. It was later found out that that was 382 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:29.599 the case and that evidence wasn't put forward at trial. 383 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.440 You're right too that one of the detectives Tricia mentioned 384 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.079 was that he had contacted web slues and thanked them 385 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:40.839 for their contributions. Let's use this as an opportunity to 386 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:44.079 stop for a second to hear from our sponsor. Often 387 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:48.680 people wait until something bad before they consider even talking 388 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.480 to a therapist. Therapy can dramatically change the way you 389 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.480 look at things in your life and then find actual 390 00:21:55.559 --> 00:22:00.720 ways to cope effectively with those most challenging moments. At 391 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:04.079 talkspace dot com, you can sign up online and get 392 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.240 a personalized match with a provider that's right for you, 393 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.839 typically within forty eight hours. Talkspace can help with any 394 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:15.680 specific challenges you might be facing. It's the number one 395 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:21.119 online therapy platform with licensed therapists and over forty specialties, 396 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:27.359 including anxiety, depression, substance abuse, relationship issues, and much more. 397 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:31.200 Talkspace is secure in private, using the latest end to 398 00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:36.559 end bank grade encryption technology to store client information in 399 00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:42.839 complying with the latest HIPAA regulations. Talkspace is affordable and 400 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:48.119 in network with most major insurers. As a listener of 401 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.640