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Speaker 8: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 8: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 8: written about them.
Speaker 5: Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 8: Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 8: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 8: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. She was an innocent Mormon girl. He was
Speaker 5: America's most notorious serial killer. When their pass crossed on
Speaker 5: a quiet autumn afternoon, he planned to kill her, But
Speaker 5: this victim had an incredible will to survive and would
Speaker 5: live to tell her story. Nearly three decades after he
Speaker 5: met death in a Florida electric chair, Ted Bundy brutally
Speaker 5: attacked Randa Stapley in a secluded Utah canyon in nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy four. She miraculously escaped and hit her dark secret
Speaker 5: until now. This compelling real story of triumph over tragedy
Speaker 5: is both shocking and inspiring and told with the true
Speaker 5: courage of a victim turned survivor. There's a forward by
Speaker 5: the late Great and Rule. The book that we're featuring
Speaker 5: this evening is I Survived Ted Bundy. The attack, Escape
Speaker 5: and PTSD that changed my life with my special guest author,
Speaker 5: Rnda Stapley. Welcome to the program and thank you for
Speaker 5: agreeing to this interview. Randa Stapley.
Speaker 3: Wow, thank you Dan for inviting me.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much. This is an incredible tale and
Speaker 5: again just and another incredible perspective that it just amazes me,
Speaker 5: never ceases to me. Some of the books, and this
Speaker 5: book in particular, from probably the most infamous serial killer
Speaker 5: of all time, and this incredible interest never has waned.
Speaker 5: And this story should be again for everyone that thinks
Speaker 5: they know everything about Ted Bundy, here's another book that
Speaker 5: tells you that that's not so true. So let's get
Speaker 5: to when we did in the introduction that you were
Speaker 5: innocent Mormon girl. So tell us where you grew up
Speaker 5: in Utah and tell us a little bit about your life. Again,
Speaker 5: we go back to a different time, so for those
Speaker 5: people that are younger or just again, we always have
Speaker 5: to put that in a historic perspective. So take us
Speaker 5: back to where you grew up and the Mormon upbringing
Speaker 5: that you did grew up and your parents and your
Speaker 5: three other siblings. Tell us a little bit about your
Speaker 5: life before we talk about that Faithful Day in Utah
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 3: All Right. I was born in Richfield, Utah, and my
Speaker 3: father moved around. We moved around quite a lot. Here
Speaker 3: was in the potato industry, and I actually went to
Speaker 3: grade school in Burley, Idaho. And I went to junior
Speaker 3: high in Othello, Washington, and high school in Connell, Washington.
Speaker 3: I have relatives in Utah. That's where my grandparents and
Speaker 3: people were, so when it came time to go to college,
Speaker 3: I chose to come to the University of Utah. I
Speaker 3: have two older brothers and one very much younger sister.
Speaker 3: She's twelve years younger than me. I was raised in
Speaker 3: a very conservative LDS Mormon household. We believe in what's
Speaker 3: called the Word of Wisdom, which is not taking of alcohol, coffee, tobacco,
Speaker 3: not eating things that are bad for the body, not
Speaker 3: abusing drugs, and not over indulging in anything. I would
Speaker 3: you believe in purity and chastity and saving yourself from
Speaker 3: marriage and all of those kind of things that the
Speaker 3: world considers virtuous and especially as that time period young women.
Speaker 5: Now also at that time, when you talk about the
Speaker 5: the upbringing that you have, you said your sin was pepsicola.
Speaker 5: So this is about how lawless or outlandish you ever
Speaker 5: got was to sneak some pepsicola for yourself, wasn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would, I would drink pepsi. Pepsi wasn't really
Speaker 3: against the religion, but it was kind of frowned upon
Speaker 3: because it has caffeine supposed to avoid anything that's the
Speaker 3: stimulant and stuff like that. So pepsi was my evil
Speaker 3: sin and my weakness.
Speaker 5: Now with your you're saying in the book you talk
Speaker 5: about that your father died fairly early, and tell us
Speaker 5: about that and also what your mother did as a result.
Speaker 5: Especially back in those times, it must have been difficult
Speaker 5: and that affected the kind of idea that you had
Speaker 5: about yourself and what your future would be career wise.
Speaker 5: So tell us a little bit about the event where
Speaker 5: your father passed away and how that changed your family.
Speaker 3: Okay, with us is when I was fourteen, I was
Speaker 3: a freshman in high school. We had just barely moved
Speaker 3: to the town of Connell. My father had put up
Speaker 3: a brand new potato factory there, and he had flown
Speaker 3: to Seattle to talk to some patent attorneys, and they
Speaker 3: are plane crashed into mountainal Quality, and he and the
Speaker 3: pilot and his business partner were all It took them
Speaker 3: a week to find that to find the crash plane,
Speaker 3: and during that time, of course, family members came from
Speaker 3: all over to help in the search and so forth,
Speaker 3: and it was a very very stressful time. Once they
Speaker 3: found the plane and we had the funerals, I just
Speaker 3: promised myself that I was gonna not cause my mom
Speaker 3: to worry. I was going to be the strong one,
Speaker 3: and I was gonna help take care of my little sister,
Speaker 3: who was two years old at that time. She of
Speaker 3: course hated going to the babysitter, and so I would
Speaker 3: avoid going on very many dates and things just because
Speaker 3: I either had to take her with or I had
Speaker 3: to leave her at the babysitter and she would cry.
Speaker 3: So my mother had to get a full time job.
Speaker 3: She worked as a clerk at the hardware store because
Speaker 3: she didn't have a college education. Those were times when
Speaker 3: women normally didn't work outside of the home, and if
Speaker 3: they did, it was kind of mundane waitressing and secretarial
Speaker 3: and nurses in school teach your kind of jobs. And
Speaker 3: I decided at that point that I was not going
Speaker 3: to have that kind of a career I was going
Speaker 3: to I was not going to depend on marrying somebody
Speaker 3: to support me. I was going to have a career
Speaker 3: that I could support myself if something serious happened. And
Speaker 3: there was a lady that started there weren't There weren't
Speaker 3: really many pharmacists who were women in that time. But
Speaker 3: but there was one lady pharmacist who started coming to
Speaker 3: our town just kind of as a relief pharmacist. Once
Speaker 3: a week she'd work in our in our little town,
Speaker 3: and once a week she'd work in another little town.
Speaker 3: And just by working three or four days a week,
Speaker 3: she made far more money than my mother was making
Speaker 3: working six days a week. And I decided that maybe
Speaker 3: I would be a pharmacist. And so that's what I
Speaker 3: came to the University of Utah to do. Is they
Speaker 3: have one of the bitter pharmacy colleges in the nation.
Speaker 3: Plus it was close to my relatives.
Speaker 5: Now we talk about the University of Utah, and I
Speaker 5: just want to add too that you you really had
Speaker 5: no experience with violence, As you say you said in
Speaker 5: that regard, you were very naive, and at that time
Speaker 5: you also point out that most people that you knew,
Speaker 5: were not aware of any of these attacks associated with
Speaker 5: what we would find out later as Ted Bundy were
Speaker 5: they we're not aware of any of this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. At the time that this happened to me,
Speaker 3: was just that in the beginning of the school year
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy four, Ted Bundy course had started killing
Speaker 3: people as far as really recorded in his history, in
Speaker 3: January in state of Washington and Oregon. And he killed
Speaker 3: on about a monthly basis, a little bit off here
Speaker 3: and there, a little bit of variation, but close to
Speaker 3: a month, about a month apart, and he had killed
Speaker 3: eleven women in the first nine months of that year.
Speaker 3: And then he moved to Salt Lake City to also
Speaker 3: attend the University of Utah as a first year law student.
Speaker 3: People in Utah had not heard about killings in Washington
Speaker 3: and Oregon. Nobody had even heard of a serial killer.
Speaker 3: I don't think there was even a word called that.
Speaker 3: Of course, there's always been serial killers, but nobody called
Speaker 3: them that until Ted Bundy came around. I believe I
Speaker 3: think the phrase was coined for him.
Speaker 5: Now, you talk about the day in question, but tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit just before that we're talking. The
Speaker 5: date is October eleventh, But tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about that, about how school was and how casual or
Speaker 5: how strict it was at that time. I guess I'm
Speaker 5: alluded to it that was very casual. But tell us
Speaker 5: the atmosphere and the environment at this University of Utah
Speaker 5: health safe? Did you feel at this campus?
Speaker 3: I felt very safe. And this was a time when
Speaker 3: everybody tried to help everybody, and nobody was.
Speaker 5: That.
Speaker 3: There was hardly any such thing as fear. People would
Speaker 3: walk around l alone at night. You'd go to the
Speaker 3: library and study till midnight and walk home, and you
Speaker 3: wouldn't be worried about anything happening to you, and people
Speaker 3: were looking out for other people. No one locked their doors.
Speaker 3: I lived in an apartment building, on the fourth floor
Speaker 3: of a thirteen story apartment building, and people would, you know,
Speaker 3: ride up the elevators and just party in every room.
Speaker 3: And everybody was everybody's friend, whether you really knew them
Speaker 3: or not. Most of the most of the people that
Speaker 3: I associated with were lds and part of my my
Speaker 3: little Mormon ward. We would go to social functions and
Speaker 3: picnics and intertubing down the snow and stuff as a
Speaker 3: group of other Mormon people have hot chocolate and chili afterwards.
Speaker 5: Life was good now at the same time I got
Speaker 5: asked this question, unfortunately, but because I remember, you know,
Speaker 5: I was born in nineteen fifty nine, so I remember
Speaker 5: how casual it was where I was in terms of hitchhiking,
Speaker 5: women or men or people picking up hitchhikers. Are people
Speaker 5: willing to take rides from people? So what was sort
Speaker 5: of the rule at that time? Just to point out
Speaker 5: for audience, exactly sort of the again, the sort of
Speaker 5: care free atmosphere we were still in at that time,
Speaker 5: it seemed like, so what exactly was the rule about hitchhiking?
Speaker 3: A lot of people hitchhiked. I never hit shiked because
Speaker 3: I heard it wasn't safe, and I believed that what
Speaker 3: I felt about my experience was that it was not
Speaker 3: hitch hiking. Nobody knew that hitchhiking was dangerous, but it
Speaker 3: wasn't so dangerous that people still didn't dare to do it.
Speaker 3: Probably the year before, I had picked up a ticket
Speaker 3: from the bulletin board in the student lobby that I
Speaker 3: just had little tear tags on it. If you wanted
Speaker 3: to ride to Washington I needed to go home for
Speaker 3: Thanksgiving the year before this, and I just tore off
Speaker 3: a ticket and rode home in a van full of
Speaker 3: hippie kind of students heading back to Washington State. Everybody
Speaker 3: chipped in twenty bucks per gas and nobody knew anybody.
Speaker 3: But it was the time that you could do stuff
Speaker 3: like that.
Speaker 5: Now, as you writing a book, you talk about October seventh,
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy four, with a young girl named Nancy Wilcox,
Speaker 5: which is sixteen years old and from Halliday, Utah. He
Speaker 5: was a Mormon girl as well. She disappeared and friends
Speaker 5: had reported that she may have been driving in a
Speaker 5: light colored VW. So then for that, tell us what
Speaker 5: was happening on October eleventh with you personally in your
Speaker 5: personal life that.
Speaker 3: Day, mkay, with my personal life. I hadn't heard actually
Speaker 3: about Nancy Wilcox disappearing the week before because people had
Speaker 3: thought that she was a runaway and her story didn't
Speaker 3: even really make the news. On the eleventh, it was
Speaker 3: a Friday afternoon, uh fall kind of weather, uh sunny
Speaker 3: but kind of kind of nippy cold, and and I
Speaker 3: had a dentist appointment at a downtown Salt Lake city
Speaker 3: dental place. I had gotten a brand new car recently,
Speaker 3: but I was kind of chicken to drive it in
Speaker 3: city traffic, and so I left it home and rode
Speaker 3: the bus cause that's what I'd been doing my whole
Speaker 3: college career, the three years that i'd been at the university. Already,
Speaker 3: I'd been uh a bus rider person. And so that
Speaker 3: day I took the bus downtown. And then after the
Speaker 3: dental appoint I had on brand new shoes, so I
Speaker 3: decided I would walk over to a park.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: While I was at that dentist's office, something went wrong
Speaker 3: in my mouth and my whole face became swollen and
Speaker 3: red and sore, and it ended up that the dentists
Speaker 3: had to cut all along my gum line and rinse
Speaker 3: out inside of my cheek because I er, I don't know,
Speaker 3: I think he had made some kind of an error.
Speaker 3: He told me some story about it was because I
Speaker 3: had been a premature baby and my job wasn't completely formed,
Speaker 3: so when he injected something, it went into the wrong
Speaker 3: part of my mouth right. But regardless, when I left,
Speaker 3: I had stitches in my mouth. And that's kind of
Speaker 3: significant because there are a lot of ted Bundy victims
Speaker 3: and other victims who have had something distracting them, either
Speaker 3: they'd had a fight with their boyfriend, or the parents
Speaker 3: were sick, or they were sick, or they had tests
Speaker 3: coming up, or you know, some kind of stress that
Speaker 3: there weren't really as focused and probably as concentrated and
Speaker 3: as as as paying attention as they normally would have been,
Speaker 3: not as cautious right.
Speaker 5: Now, d The one thing that was again is very significant,
Speaker 5: is that you said you had brand new shoes, but
Speaker 5: you had on hiking boots. And tell us about what
Speaker 5: was significant about those hiking boots and what you did
Speaker 5: with them.
Speaker 3: Hiking boots. Just about every pair I've ever boughten have
Speaker 3: been the same way. The laces are long enough for
Speaker 3: about three pairs of hiking boots. So these boots had
Speaker 3: laces that just went on forever, and so I laced
Speaker 3: them up. These were high top over the ankle kind
Speaker 3: of boots, and I'd laced them up snug, and then
Speaker 3: wrapped the laces that were way too long around and
Speaker 3: around my ankle three or four times, and then tie
Speaker 3: them in a bowl and then double knotted them so
Speaker 3: they were really on my feet well. And then I'd
Speaker 3: walked to the park to kind of break them in
Speaker 3: and just take a break from school and classes.
Speaker 5: Now, when you went near the park to explain this,
Speaker 5: you know, it's always amazing to me that when I
Speaker 5: look at a photo of Ted Bundy, he looks like
Speaker 5: to me, great canear the All American US actor, you know.
Speaker 5: But that's just me. But tell us what you did see.
Speaker 5: Of course you didn't see the serial killer Ted Bundy.
Speaker 5: But why again, we said you had a strict rule,
Speaker 5: you wouldn't have hitchhiked. So tell us about this circumstance
Speaker 5: and what is it that you saw that seemed to
Speaker 5: formulate in your mind a sense of security or no apprehension.
Speaker 5: We'll say.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, after I had wandered around the park for
Speaker 3: a while and done about everything there is to do,
Speaker 3: looked at birds in aviary and watch people picnicking, and
Speaker 3: walk with my boots through the yellow and gold leaves
Speaker 3: and stuff from falling off the trees in the autumn,
Speaker 3: then venumbness in my mouth from the dell surgery had
Speaker 3: started to come off, and I could tell I was
Speaker 3: going to be in pain and that I better find
Speaker 3: a bus stop and get back up to campus. I
Speaker 3: lived on campus, and that's where I needed to be going.
Speaker 3: So I found a bus stop and I waited and waited.
Speaker 3: Buses usually come every ten to fifteen minutes, and I
Speaker 3: must have waited thirty five minutes or so, and no
Speaker 3: bus had come. Even if I had missed the first one,
Speaker 3: I was way too long for the next one to
Speaker 3: have come. My mouth was getting sore, and I was discouraged,
Speaker 3: and I was trying to think of where another bus
Speaker 3: stop would be that would have the same route that
Speaker 3: would get me back up to campus. And then down
Speaker 3: the road came a tan Volkswagen and it just drove
Speaker 3: by really slow. This was in nineteen seventy four. There
Speaker 3: was not a lot of traffic, and it drove by
Speaker 3: really slow, and then it stopped and backed up. The
Speaker 3: cute driver leaned over and rolled down the passenger window
Speaker 3: and asked me where I was going, and I told
Speaker 3: him I was going up to the university, and he
Speaker 3: smiled and said me too. Hop in, and so I
Speaker 3: opened the door and got in. He did not seem scary.
Speaker 3: I knew that hitchhiking was not a good idea, but
Speaker 3: this did not feel like hitchhiking. This felt like a
Speaker 3: friendly college student helping a fellow college student. He was
Speaker 3: not scary, and it didn't feel wrong or dangerous.
Speaker 5: Now a conversation ensued. So in the beginning of the conversation, again,
Speaker 5: you didn't seem to be apprehensive. So tell us what
Speaker 5: you guys talked about. And then you talk about a
Speaker 5: different route, So tell us what happened.
Speaker 3: H Yeah, So I tell him, you know, my name's
Speaker 3: Ronda and I'm a pharmacy student at the U. He
Speaker 3: tells me my name's Ted and I'm a first year
Speaker 3: law student. We've talked about cars. I told him that
Speaker 3: I had a new car and I was scared to
Speaker 3: drive it. And he hadn't only gone just a couple
Speaker 3: of blocks when he turned east, and you could get
Speaker 3: to the University of that direction, but it wasn't the
Speaker 3: normal direction. It had a really steep hill to go up,
Speaker 3: and Volkswagens have a stick shift with a clutch, and
Speaker 3: I never would have dared drive up that hill with
Speaker 3: a with a stick shift. And I kind of joked
Speaker 3: with him about that, said, why are we going this way?
Speaker 3: This is kind of a scary way to go because
Speaker 3: we could like roll down the hill backwards and he says, no,
Speaker 3: he's used to that car and they'll be just fine.
Speaker 3: But he very very politely said, I hope you don't mind,
Speaker 3: but I have a really short errand to run up
Speaker 3: by the zoo. And I didn't mind. The zoo is
Speaker 3: just kind of one canyon over from the from the
Speaker 3: university and almost on the way, and I would still
Speaker 3: be home faster than if I had waited for the bus.
Speaker 3: So then we drove up towards the zoo, started going
Speaker 3: up the canyon where the zoo is located, and we
Speaker 3: went right on past the zoo and I said, hey,
Speaker 3: I thought you were taking me to the zoo, kind
Speaker 3: of joking with him, and we were just just chatting.
Speaker 3: It just seemed like two college kids chatting. And he said, no,
Speaker 3: I didn't say it's taking it to the zoo. I
Speaker 3: said I had an errand to run near the zoo.
Speaker 3: So we kept going through. There's you go through a
Speaker 3: little town and over hill, and then you're in Parties Canyon,
Speaker 3: which is the main highway coming back into the city,
Speaker 3: and at that point the sun is setting. We're going
Speaker 3: west into the sunset, and you see this beautiful city
Speaker 3: and it's beautiful, and we're just kind of chatting as stills,
Speaker 3: no warnings going off, and no bells and whistles. It's
Speaker 3: obvious that there was no errand to run, but I
Speaker 3: thought he's just flirting with me and has just taking
Speaker 3: me for a car ride. Then when we got to
Speaker 3: the bottom of that canyon, he should have turned right
Speaker 3: to take me to campus, and instead we turned left
Speaker 3: and started going up another canyon. And that was when
Speaker 3: the the trip started to feel awkward and not quite
Speaker 3: as safe, and.
Speaker 5: The conversation changed. Yes, said his mood changed too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he'd been talking to me the whole way, just
Speaker 3: just you know, about about books and about professors, and
Speaker 3: about buildings on campus and road construction and just you know,
Speaker 3: whatever people who don't know each other very well kind
Speaker 3: of talk about. And then all of a sudden, when
Speaker 3: we started up that canyon, he stopped talking to me
Speaker 3: and just had both hands firmly planted arms steering wheel,
Speaker 3: and it's just driving. And then every time he goes
Speaker 3: around a corner he kind of slows down, and he's
Speaker 3: looking at side roads and turn offs and picnic areas,
Speaker 3: and I'm feeling awkward, not really frightened, but just kind
Speaker 3: of uncomfortable. So I'm thinking in my mind that he's
Speaker 3: looking for a place to pull over and park and
Speaker 3: make out. And I'm not a makeout kind of girl,
Speaker 3: and I don't really know him, and my mouth is
Speaker 3: sore from the dentist, and I just kind of want
Speaker 3: him to take me home, but I don't want him
Speaker 3: to think that I'm a prude, and I don't want
Speaker 3: to embarrass either of us. I want this to just
Speaker 3: I want to get out of this situation gracefully, and
Speaker 3: trying to think of a way.
Speaker 5: To do that. And you say he's trying to find
Speaker 5: a a suitable place to park. When he finally does that,
Speaker 5: he then he turns, and you think he's gonna kiss you.
Speaker 5: And what does he say?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he parked the car and he kind of turned
Speaker 3: in his seat so he's almost facing me, and he
Speaker 3: leaned in really close, and course I thought that he
Speaker 3: was gonna kiss me, and I'm my mind is going,
Speaker 3: how can I get out of this? And then he
Speaker 3: very quietly said, do you know what, I'm going to
Speaker 3: kill you? And he put his hands on my throat
Speaker 3: and started squeezing, and then a million things went through
Speaker 3: my mind. You know could he be kidding? Is this
Speaker 3: a joke? Is he got a bad sense of humor?
Speaker 3: Is this real? And why would he want to kill anybody?
Speaker 3: And why would he want to kill me? And panic
Speaker 3: sets in about that time when you realize that he's
Speaker 3: squeezing way more tightly than it could be a joke.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And how do you fight with every bit of
Speaker 5: How long does it take you to finally realize he's
Speaker 5: killing me? And what do you do as a result?
Speaker 3: Well, I realized that pretty right away. This just was
Speaker 3: a couple of seconds before I realized that he wasn't
Speaker 3: joking around. And there was a big kind of a
Speaker 3: battle in the car.
Speaker 8: But.
Speaker 3: I lost he I went unconscious, lost consciousness in the car,
Speaker 3: and then he moved me out of the car to
Speaker 3: like a picnic table and the assault continued there.
Speaker 5: Now you initially talk about waking up after this brutal
Speaker 5: sexual assault, and we will talk about later why you
Speaker 5: We won't talk about exactly what he said at that time,
Speaker 5: but he thinks you're dead, at least that's what it seems.
Speaker 5: You wake up face down in the dirt, and what
Speaker 5: can you see from that vantage point? And then what
Speaker 5: does do you instinctively.
Speaker 3: Do okay, this was pitch dark by now, there's no
Speaker 3: light anywhere. I don't remember a moon or stars or anything,
Speaker 3: but there was. The car was parked about thirty feet away,
Speaker 3: and the car passenger door was opened, so the dome
Speaker 3: light is glowing, and in that light I can see
Speaker 3: that he is over there by the car, fiddling around
Speaker 3: something in the back seat or doing something in the car,
Speaker 3: facing away from me, and I just jumped and ran
Speaker 3: the other direction into pure blackness. I didn't know if
Speaker 3: I was going to into the woods or whatever, but
Speaker 3: it turned out I was going into the river. There
Speaker 3: was a fast moving mountain river right there, which I
Speaker 3: stumbled into, and the river swept me away from him,
Speaker 3: and is essentially what saved my life.
Speaker 5: Now. What's important, too, is we talked about those boots
Speaker 5: and the three wrap around laces that you used, and
Speaker 5: when you got up to run, of course, you didn't
Speaker 5: pay attention to anything. You thought I have an opportunity
Speaker 5: to run. You recognize that you had just woken up
Speaker 5: from You remember being choked out, so at least you
Speaker 5: remember that and the sexual assault as well. So what
Speaker 5: is it that happens that you get up what happens.
Speaker 5: You say, you fall into the river, but tell us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hadn't. I hadn't noticed, but my pants were
Speaker 3: in a wad around my ankles, and so when I ran,
Speaker 3: of course I tripped. But fortunately I was right next
Speaker 3: to the river when I tripped and fell into the river.
Speaker 3: Maybe it hadn't been for those shoes, the story might
Speaker 3: have been kind of all different because when I was
Speaker 3: able to climb out of the river, I still had
Speaker 3: my boots on, and because of that, I still have
Speaker 3: my pants on. I could still kind of rearrange my
Speaker 3: clothes and walk home. Whe if I'd have had different
Speaker 3: kind of shoes, I wouldn't have been able to walk
Speaker 3: the twelve to fifteen miles home that the trip was,
Speaker 3: and somebody would have known what had happened to me.
Speaker 5: Well, let's go backwards a little bit, because you're just
Speaker 5: downplaying how amazing this story is. Is that you go
Speaker 5: to run away, you don't know if you're running into
Speaker 5: a forest or off a cliff, and you end up
Speaker 5: your pants are around your ankles. Your boots he couldn't
Speaker 5: get them off because of the laces. So you're in
Speaker 5: the water. Now you're floating violently down this stream. It's
Speaker 5: not like it's a pleasure cruise down this stream. And
Speaker 5: tell us what saves you from just being battered by
Speaker 5: going downstream at this pretty good pace. So it's a
Speaker 5: little more it's a little more dramatic than you're saying.
Speaker 5: So tell us a little bit about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this river is a fast moving mountain stream. So
Speaker 3: there are rocks and boulders and not really waterfalls, but
Speaker 3: water tumbling over the top of boulders and swirling around boulders.
Speaker 3: And I'm being smashed into rocks and under tree limbs
Speaker 3: that are going across the river. And eventually what stops
Speaker 3: me is I come to seemed like it was a
Speaker 3: like a metal grate that's set up there to stop
Speaker 3: debris from going further downstream. And I ran into this
Speaker 3: kind of little kind of like a little dam and
Speaker 3: got stuck in the in all this debris and was
Speaker 3: able to climb out because of that.
Speaker 5: Now, people might ask, and people might think that somebody
Speaker 5: people might want to try to flag down a motorist,
Speaker 5: but you still fear this assailant, and so as a result,
Speaker 5: what do you do? And again, you have these great
Speaker 5: hiking boots on so it's not. Luckily you're not naked
Speaker 5: and barefoot, and we'll see why that's especially apparent. Other
Speaker 5: than the obvious. You can escape much better with these
Speaker 5: boots on. But tell us what your strategy is. Once
Speaker 5: you get out, you're pretty clear thinking that maybe this
Speaker 5: guy is still on the look for you, and that
Speaker 5: he hasn't just forgotten about you and written you off.
Speaker 5: He maybe still be looking for you. So how do
Speaker 5: you proceed from there?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's only one road out of the canyon, and
Speaker 3: if I was going to flag down a car, it
Speaker 3: might be his car. And I was afraid to go
Speaker 3: anywhere near the road, So I stayed in the river
Speaker 3: or right alongside of the river, and just kind of
Speaker 3: walked in the weeds and the rocks, and in the
Speaker 3: alongside of the He's splashing along in the water, pitch
Speaker 3: dark and see. So I stumbled a lot, and I'd
Speaker 3: come to trees that had fallen over the river that
Speaker 3: had to climb under or climb over. And the place
Speaker 3: where the attack happened was about four miles up the canyon,
Speaker 3: and so there was about four miles by the time
Speaker 3: I got out of there. I was pretty much tired
Speaker 3: of hiking by then, and decided that, you know, maybe
Speaker 3: I would find a ride home. I didn't really have
Speaker 3: a plan, but I thought. The first thing that I
Speaker 3: thought when I climbed out was nobody can know this happened.
Speaker 3: But at this point, I'm out of the canyon and
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, I'll just find somebody who'll give me a
Speaker 3: ride home. And I saw some There was a ski
Speaker 3: rental shop at the end of the canyon, and the
Speaker 3: shop was closed, but there was a couple of cars parked.
Speaker 3: There was a bunch of men who were drinking beer
Speaker 3: and laughing, and I decided that was not going to
Speaker 3: be my ride. I would just have to walk, and
Speaker 3: so I sucked it up and walked back to campus.
Speaker 3: I took side streets and tried to stay off the
Speaker 3: main roads and panicked every time a car would turn
Speaker 3: towards me, because I thought it's going to be that guy.
Speaker 5: So your priorities just and you capture this very vividly
Speaker 5: in the book, is that your priorities are that number one,
Speaker 5: you want to get back to your campus. Two you
Speaker 5: want to clean up. Three nobody you know, or this
Speaker 5: is maybe the number one nobody is to know because
Speaker 5: you're embarrassed, you're you're you're somewhat to blame, you believe
Speaker 5: in terms of this happening, and you just don't. So
Speaker 5: tell us what this complex sort of emotional situation is
Speaker 5: for you, instead of what people might think as they
Speaker 5: watch TV that people would just normally pick up the
Speaker 5: phone and nine to one one, and so tell us
Speaker 5: where you are emotionally here, that that doesn't happen, and
Speaker 5: what does happen.
Speaker 3: When I was a young woman, probably like junior high
Speaker 3: in high school, in our in our church, the teachings
Speaker 3: were about being chased and virtuous and that that was
Speaker 3: the most important thing that a woman could have, and
Speaker 3: that if if you were being attacked, and that it's
Speaker 3: better to give up your life than it is to
Speaker 3: give up your virtue. And I had and I had lived,
Speaker 3: so I kind of had guilt that I had lived,
Speaker 3: and I felt like embarrassed that I had let this
Speaker 3: happen to me and ashamed. I felt stupid or haven't
Speaker 3: gotten myself into such a stupid, dangerous situation in the
Speaker 3: first place. I thought that people that knew me would
Speaker 3: treat me differently and it would be awkward and weird.
Speaker 3: I thought that if my mother found out, she'd make
Speaker 3: me drop out of school and come home. I thought
Speaker 3: that people would point at me and say, that's her,
Speaker 3: that's that girl that was raped. And I just decided
Speaker 3: that I was just going to suck it up and
Speaker 3: pretend it never happened and go on with my life.
Speaker 5: Now, you had some visible injuries and other injuries. How
Speaker 5: how did you get around those injuries? How do you
Speaker 5: excuse yourself from certain things where people might know or
Speaker 5: might ask questions? How did you do that?
Speaker 3: Well? Fortunately, when I got home early the next morning,
Speaker 3: my roommates were gone, so I had the place to myself,
Speaker 3: and I bathed and cleaned up and found all my
Speaker 3: long sleeve shirts with the high neck collars, and I
Speaker 3: wore a baseball hat and pulled the brim down over
Speaker 3: my kind of shading my forehead so people couldn't see
Speaker 3: my eyes so much. They were kind of blotchy, like
Speaker 3: happens when you're strangled. And then when people would ask
Speaker 3: me what happened, I would use the dental excuse, because
Speaker 3: the dentist had told me that your face will probably
Speaker 3: be swollen a little bit, and you might even get
Speaker 3: a black eye just from the dental surgery that he'd
Speaker 3: done so, and I have these stitches. So I would
Speaker 3: tell people if they really asked, I'd say, you know,
Speaker 3: I've been to the dentist, and I'd lift up my
Speaker 3: lip and showed them the row of stitches, and they
Speaker 3: would say, whoa A dentist did this to you? You
Speaker 3: should get a liar. But nobody had reason to not
Speaker 3: believe me because I was an honest person.
Speaker 5: And now to add to your apprehension, though, is that
Speaker 5: you realize that you left your backpack and your ID
Speaker 5: with Ted Bundy. Is that correct?
Speaker 3: That's correct. It was probably still in the car as
Speaker 3: far as I know. It had my student ID and
Speaker 3: had my driver's license, but I had recently remember not
Speaker 3: really recently, but my driver's license and my ID went
Speaker 3: to an old address that I had lived at previously,
Speaker 3: so I didn't really have my address. But I was
Speaker 3: kind of worried that he still could find me, because
Speaker 3: it was that it was a big university. First girl,
Speaker 3: it was a small university as far as universities go,
Speaker 3: and if he had wanted to find me he probably
Speaker 3: could have.
Speaker 5: Now as a direct result of this, before any of
Speaker 5: the other talk of PTSD. The immediate result of this
Speaker 5: is that you are not really eating, and you're not
Speaker 5: really sleeping, and you're stopping again. Before you were gregarious
Speaker 5: and outgoing and socially active, you're not going out so much,
Speaker 5: not socially active as much. Is that the way?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I kind of gave up all social functions, and
Speaker 3: I wasn't eating right, and I wasn't sleeping hardly at all.
Speaker 3: And in the nighttime I would wake up just shaking
Speaker 3: and in a panic, and all I wanted to do
Speaker 3: is run, And so I would go outside at night
Speaker 3: and run. And you know, as the time went on,
Speaker 3: they were more and more young women disappearing, and more
Speaker 3: and more he's being found in canyons. And my roommates
Speaker 3: were not happy that I was running around in the
Speaker 3: middle of the night, and one of them would insist
Speaker 3: that she comes with me. She would first tell me,
Speaker 3: you can't go out there because it's not even safe,
Speaker 3: and I tell her I have to go, and so
Speaker 3: she would say, well, wait a minute, and I'll come
Speaker 3: with you. She would run with me in the rain
Speaker 3: and the snow, and.
Speaker 5: You talk about other attacks. It happened shortly after yours
Speaker 5: October eighteenth. Melissa Smith was seventeen Midvale from Midvale, Utah,
Speaker 5: near Salt Lake, and Melissa's father was Midvale's police chief.
Speaker 5: Now you say you don't know the rules that Ted
Speaker 5: used to lure Melissa, but she disappeared, and you were
Speaker 5: watching the news coverage and interviews with Melissa's father pleading
Speaker 5: with the public define his daughter, and nine days later
Speaker 5: someone stumbled on his remain. So tell us about what
Speaker 5: it felt like what you were watching, and what was it.
Speaker 5: What was your reaction to what you were watching? What
Speaker 5: did that do to you? What was your reaction to that?
Speaker 3: In the very beginning when he first then the father
Speaker 3: first went on TV and was saying, please, public, you know,
Speaker 3: help look for my daughter because she's missing. We have
Speaker 3: no idea where she went. She's not the kind of
Speaker 3: girl who would run away. I was worried, but I
Speaker 3: wasn't really connecting them because she was younger than me,
Speaker 3: and she was from out in the valley and about
Speaker 3: the university, and so I didn't really connect it. Plus
Speaker 3: I didn't want there to be a connection, so I
Speaker 3: was kind of denying that, you know, just thinking the
Speaker 3: world is getting to be wicked and there's you know,
Speaker 3: something else has happened somewhere. And then they found her body,
Speaker 3: and that made me feel really sad, especially since she
Speaker 3: was in a canyon and I had been in a canyon,
Speaker 3: and I was starting them to kind of connect it
Speaker 3: a little bit, but still refusing to believe that one
Speaker 3: person could do all that damage. And then a week
Speaker 3: after that, there was a Laura aim from another nearby
Speaker 3: town that disappeared, and people thought she was a runaway too,
Speaker 3: so it took a little while for her story to
Speaker 3: get on the news. And then when they started talking
Speaker 3: about her, they started connecting all three of them. The
Speaker 3: newspeople were saying, there was Nancy Wilcox disappeared, and Melissa
Speaker 3: Smith disappeared, and Laura am Now has disappeared, and one
Speaker 3: of them has been found dead, and you know, something
Speaker 3: is going on. And I'm starting to think, well, something
Speaker 3: is going on, and I was thinking about going to
Speaker 3: the police and working my way up to that when
Speaker 3: the next week, Ted Bundy attacked two more women. One
Speaker 3: was Carol Durranch, who he tried to kidnap from a
Speaker 3: nearby mall, and she managed. He pretended to be a
Speaker 3: police officer and told her that he'd seen someone break
Speaker 3: get into her car and would she come with him
Speaker 3: to the police station. And so she got in his
Speaker 3: Volkswagen and he tried to put handcuffs on her. She
Speaker 3: managed to escape and gave the police a description of
Speaker 3: him and his Volkswagon. And right after she escaped, he
Speaker 3: had gone a couple miles I think it was like
Speaker 3: twelve miles to another little city called Bountiful and taken
Speaker 3: Deborah Kent from a high school parking lot. And she
Speaker 3: has never been found. But they found a key in
Speaker 3: the parking lot where Debora was taken that fit the handcuffs.
Speaker 3: It was the off brand, strange brand of handcuffs that
Speaker 3: had been used on Carol de Ranch, and the handcuff
Speaker 3: key found by where Debora was taken fit those handcuffs.
Speaker 3: And that's how I knew that exactly. My bad guy
Speaker 3: was a very bad guy.
Speaker 5: Now, you said you were sick with guilt at that
Speaker 5: time and thought you were racked with guilt. Why were
Speaker 5: you racked with guilt? And why didn't you come forward.
Speaker 3: Guilt? Because I thought that if I had come forward,
Speaker 3: he would have been caught sooner, or people would have
Speaker 3: at least been warned to stay away from nice looking
Speaker 3: guys in volkswagens. And I was thinking that probably not
Speaker 3: so much Nancy Wilcox, because she happened before me, but
Speaker 3: everybody after me was maybe my fault that they had died,
Speaker 3: and so I had that guilt. I thought about going
Speaker 3: to the police, but then they already had they had
Speaker 3: a description of him in his car from Carol, and
Speaker 3: I didn't think that I had any other information to offer.
Speaker 3: And there's still all of those reasons I had that
Speaker 3: were still important to me, about not letting my mother
Speaker 3: find out and people would treat me weird, and I
Speaker 3: would have to tell police details that I was unable
Speaker 3: to do at that time, and it's still just was
Speaker 3: too hard to come forward.
Speaker 5: Now this Like I say, these hikers found Laura Ames's
Speaker 5: body on Thanksgiving, beaten beyond recognition. You were having a
Speaker 5: very hard time sleeping at that time. You talked about
Speaker 5: Carol Laurent and her making an app description of Ted Bundy.
Speaker 5: Tell us about the doctor examination you know you didn't
Speaker 5: have right after the incident at all. Tell us what
Speaker 5: this doctor does and that experience for you when you
Speaker 5: finally get examined and he talks about your last pelvic
Speaker 5: exam and this is incredible, So tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wasn't eating ride, and my roommates could tell
Speaker 3: that I was not feeling good and I was unhappy,
Speaker 3: and I was having stress and running in the middle
Speaker 3: of the night and things. And one of my roommates
Speaker 3: convinced me that I should see a doctor. And I
Speaker 3: was having some urinary kind of track related issues. And
Speaker 3: I'm wondering, if you know, I'm very naive. I don't know.
Speaker 3: Maybe I could be pregnant, or maybe I have some
Speaker 3: terrible sexual disease, or maybe I've been injured some way,
Speaker 3: but maybe I ought to see a doctor. And so
Speaker 3: I found a doctor just in the yellow pages, and
Speaker 3: I went to him. And this was in the days
Speaker 3: when you didn't have medical assistance and things. That little
Speaker 3: doctor's clinic was just ran by the doctor and his
Speaker 3: office lady. So the doctor did all the tests himself,
Speaker 3: and he asked me if when when my last pelvic
Speaker 3: exam had been and I told him that I have
Speaker 3: never had a pelvic exam, and he says, well, if
Speaker 3: you're if you're sexually active, I would recommend that you
Speaker 3: have one, especially because you're having symptoms in that area.
Speaker 3: And I wasn't really sure if being raped equal to
Speaker 3: being sexually active, but I told him, yeah, we probably,
Speaker 3: we probably should do it. So he did the examine.
Speaker 3: He told me that I had some vaginal tearing that's
Speaker 3: usually caused by too rough up intercourse. And he told
Speaker 3: me that maybe in the future you might want to
Speaker 3: be a little less exuberant.
Speaker 5: And still you didn't reveal to this doctor this horrible truth,
Speaker 5: did you. You just took it as a insensitivity.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought he's insensitive and I'm out of here.
Speaker 3: Show me the way to the door now.
Speaker 5: With this as well, you do seek medical aid in
Speaker 5: terms of you discover this sleeping aid name placidel. So
Speaker 5: tell us about your dalliance with Placidyl.
Speaker 3: As a pharmacy student, you have to do an internship.
Speaker 3: And the summer before this had happened, I had just
Speaker 3: begun my internship at a little independent Rexall store. The
Speaker 3: boss there very nice to his customers. People come in
Speaker 3: with broken watches and things, he just would replace them.
Speaker 3: And you have this one customer that brought back a
Speaker 3: bottle of sleeping pills, and he was scrouchy at saying,
Speaker 3: you know, I pay a whole bunch of money for
Speaker 3: these pills and they don't even work, and I don't
Speaker 3: want them. I want my money back. And so the
Speaker 3: boss refunded his money and made the customer happy. And
Speaker 3: then what pharmacists do with returned pills is controlled subtences.
Speaker 3: They have to be destroyed. But instead of destroying them,
Speaker 3: he knew that I was having trouble sleeping, and he
Speaker 3: offered them to me as a gift, and I was
Speaker 3: afraid to take him, so I just put him in
Speaker 3: my sock drawer. Okay, thanks, I'll try him someday. But
Speaker 3: I was really not ever planning on trying, am I.
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Speaker 3: Ended up in my sock drawer, and they stayed in
Speaker 3: my sock drawer all the rest of that summer while
Speaker 3: I was interning, and for the first part of the
Speaker 3: school year after I was back in Salt Lake, and
Speaker 3: they stayed there even after my attack until Carol which
Speaker 3: and Debora Kent had their experience, And that's when I
Speaker 3: knew that my bad guy was a really bad guy,
Speaker 3: and when the guilt really hit that I was probably
Speaker 3: responsible for all of those other attacks, and that's just
Speaker 3: feeling so awful. And I haven't slept for a month anyway,
Speaker 3: and I'm studying pills, and I know that just one
Speaker 3: pill isn't going to kill me. And I'm going to
Speaker 3: try this sleeping pill and just see if I can
Speaker 3: get some rest and so and study it at the
Speaker 3: same time. So I waited again until my roommates were
Speaker 3: all out of town, and I sat in the bean
Speaker 3: bag chair and I moved the clock so I could
Speaker 3: see it, and I wrote down the time that I
Speaker 3: took the pills. I'm going to do this scientifically and
Speaker 3: study this this little pill and see if it helped
Speaker 3: me go to sleep. And I swallowed it, and I'm
Speaker 3: sitting there watching the clock, and I totally really just
Speaker 3: expect to gradually start getting sleepy. Instead, what happened was
Speaker 3: just amazing. The third first thing that happened is at
Speaker 3: the very same time, my hair started tingling, my head
Speaker 3: started feeling kind of bubbly and light and silly, and
Speaker 3: all of that care and worry and stress just evaporated.
Speaker 3: I felt better than I felt for the whole month
Speaker 3: since my attack. I felt wonderful, euphoric. I was an
Speaker 3: instant addict to Placidil.
Speaker 5: Now Placidyl. Despite this, I said, I guess facetiously called
Speaker 5: it the dalliance. But it was working to do something
Speaker 5: that nothing else could do for you, at least temporarily
Speaker 5: when you took that pill. Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Now, at the same time, placidal doesn't get in the
Speaker 5: way of your pharmacist career. Your career is flourishing, especially
Speaker 5: in the beginning, and despite the attack from mister Bundy.
Speaker 5: Tell us about that and how successful you get, and
Speaker 5: it seems like you've in some regards, been carried on
Speaker 5: and you're carrying on with your life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that I'm managing the placidal use. Well,
Speaker 3: I don't have to take it all the time, and
Speaker 3: I just take it, you know, when my roommates are
Speaker 3: out of town, and mostly managing to get to class
Speaker 3: and passing my tests. I managed to graduate, and I
Speaker 3: managed to get a job in my field. So now
Speaker 3: I'm a licensed pharmacist. I'm making good money, and placidal
Speaker 3: is becoming less and less troublesome, and I'm becoming a
Speaker 3: professional pharmacist. And I've moved to a new community and
Speaker 3: have a new job and a new apartment and a
Speaker 3: new roommate, and life is going good. I'm starting to
Speaker 3: make friends and becoming a little more outgoing again.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about in the book about January twelfth,
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy five, Bundy moves to another jurisdiction, which again
Speaker 5: is important to this story, Colorado Ski Lodge Carolyn Campbell,
Speaker 5: twenty three years old. This is a bizarre story. She
Speaker 5: is with her husband and families, and she excuses herself
Speaker 5: to go up to the room just to get a
Speaker 5: magazine and she disappears.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she did.
Speaker 5: He remains are found gohead.
Speaker 3: Sorry, yeah, that's I'm just repeating you.
Speaker 5: And her remains are found in February eighteenth, nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 5: and is a few miles away from the hotel. Again,
Speaker 5: she was beat on the head as well, and he
Speaker 5: continues March third, Taylor, Washington for women's remains Brenda Ball,
Speaker 5: Linda and Healey, Susan Rancourt, and Roberta Parks. And this
Speaker 5: is ten miles from where Janis ought and Denise Naslin
Speaker 5: were found in September seventy four. Again, what's the connection
Speaker 5: at that time and how much do you know at
Speaker 5: that time? We'll say what's more important? What do you know?
Speaker 5: What are you aware of that time in terms of
Speaker 5: the extensiveness of Ted and what he is doing? Are
Speaker 5: you able to follow? Are you tell us what you
Speaker 5: know and what you think you know at that time?
Speaker 3: I know about the Utah women, and I know about
Speaker 3: Karen Campbell in Colorado, and now they've found a bunch
Speaker 3: of bodies in Washington, and it's just kind of that
Speaker 3: hasn't been proven. He hasn't even have been charged with
Speaker 3: those crimes, but it's kind of rumored that they suspect
Speaker 3: that the same person that's taken all old Utah women
Speaker 3: might be responsible for the ones in Washington and Oregon.
Speaker 3: And now all of these bodies are found and the
Speaker 3: world is starting to connect the dot and I was
Speaker 3: connecting dots.
Speaker 5: Too, And you're Placidel. That has been working for a
Speaker 5: long time. Now, what are you experiencing with Placidel?
Speaker 3: And I it's I I need a bigger and bigger dose.
Speaker 5: Are you doing it more often?
Speaker 3: I'm doing it more often, and I'm being less cautious
Speaker 3: sometimes I'm Sometimes my roommates are home, I find that
Speaker 3: one time, somebody, somebody from our church gave me a
Speaker 3: phone call, and I just barely taken the pill, and
Speaker 3: I thought I had ten or fifteen minutes before it
Speaker 3: took effect and nobody would notice that I was kind
Speaker 3: of spaced out. And so I talked to this guy
Speaker 3: for just a little while. I thought I was just
Speaker 3: talk to him really fast and get him off the
Speaker 3: line and then lock myself in my room and enjoy
Speaker 3: my placidal. Instead, the pill kicked in, and I talked
Speaker 3: with slurred speech and prey. Soon he hung up and
Speaker 3: called the Bishop of our Ward, who called me to
Speaker 3: see if I was suicidal. My roommates by then had
Speaker 3: been telling him that I was acting weird and taking
Speaker 3: medication and running around Minilanide and being depressed, and he
Speaker 3: suspected that I might be suicidal, so he had phoned
Speaker 3: to kind of check on me. So my secret was
Speaker 3: not staying a secret. It was getting a little bit
Speaker 3: out of my control, and it was no longer a hidden,
Speaker 3: super secret part of my life.
Speaker 5: Right. And as well that people intervening at that time,
Speaker 5: they did recommend some things like changing your workload at
Speaker 5: school and so that you could cut down the drug use.
Speaker 5: And so you did say at that time that you
Speaker 5: were accepting and you were receiving a lot of help
Speaker 5: from people, and it did do help.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it did help. And it kept me thinking that
Speaker 3: people are still nice in the world. The whole world
Speaker 3: is not murderers and rapists, that there are really nice
Speaker 3: people on the planet.
Speaker 5: But speaking of the murderers, Lynette don Culver twelve years old,
Speaker 5: May sixth, nineteen seventy five, Pocatello, Idaho, went missing, Susan Curtis, fifteen,
Speaker 5: and she was from Bountiful. That's the same neighborhood as
Speaker 5: Deborah Kent. Four days later, Shelley Robertson twenty four and
Speaker 5: then July first, nineteen seventy five, Golden Well, that was
Speaker 5: July first, part of me nineteen seventy five, Golden Colorado.
Speaker 5: Three days later Nancy Baird twenty three years of age,
Speaker 5: and that was the fourth of July, and Layton, Utah.
Speaker 5: So this guilt that we talked about initially, is this
Speaker 5: guilt gone away or is it more intensified? What is
Speaker 5: your sleep patterns?
Speaker 3: It's off the wall and I am not sleeping except
Speaker 3: you know, with the with the help of Placidel and
Speaker 3: all those people who were murdered, even the ones by Bundy,
Speaker 3: weren't They weren't all connected to him right away. He
Speaker 3: was like a suspect, but not the only suspect. And
Speaker 3: he wasn't all with me. He wasn't even the only murderer.
Speaker 3: They would find bodies that were, you know, in canyons,
Speaker 3: murdered by somebody else. But every time that the body
Speaker 3: was found someplace, I would assume that it's my fault,
Speaker 3: it's my killer.
Speaker 5: And yeah, now, as your chronicle in the book, on
Speaker 5: August sixteenth, nineteen seventy five, Sergeant Bob Hayward made history
Speaker 5: in Granger, Utah. And he was just finishing his shift
Speaker 5: and again the ten Volkswagen. And so tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit about how he does this again makes history,
Speaker 5: and how he just notices this ten VW which wasn't
Speaker 5: so out of the ordinary in those days. But why
Speaker 5: was it? Why would why did he notice it?
Speaker 3: Well, because I guess he just finished his shift and
Speaker 3: he was sitting in his in the car and in
Speaker 3: his parking lot, in his driveway, riding up his daily
Speaker 3: log or whatever police guy's ride up, and he saw
Speaker 3: this Volkswagen drive by, and it just wasn't in his
Speaker 3: wasn't he hadn't seen it in his neighborhood before. It's
Speaker 3: kind of a little side, quiet street, and so you
Speaker 3: kind of know who your neighbors are, and he hadn't
Speaker 3: recognized it, so he wasn't really concerned. He just kind
Speaker 3: of volkswagen. And then he got a call from to
Speaker 3: help another officer do need assistance, and he was going
Speaker 3: to be back up, and so he leaves his driveway
Speaker 3: and he goes down another little side street and there's
Speaker 3: that same Volkswagen that has pulled over and parked in
Speaker 3: front of one of his neighbor's houses. And he knows
Speaker 3: that the neighbors are on vacation and that they have
Speaker 3: two teenage daughters and those two teenage daughters are home alone,
Speaker 3: and this Volkswagen has parked in front of that house,
Speaker 3: and so that kind of makes him wonder what's going on.
Speaker 3: And when he pulled up, the Volkswagen sped off and
Speaker 3: resulted in a little chase, and when he finally caught him,
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy lied to him, told him he was he
Speaker 3: just ran because he'd been smoking marijuana. And he was
Speaker 3: found with some burglary tools and arrested for possession of
Speaker 3: burglary paraphernalia.
Speaker 5: Well, you do talk about a couple of things that
Speaker 5: were very interesting, he says. He asked him, what are
Speaker 5: you doing this are he says, well, I was just
Speaker 5: at the drive in at the Towering Inferno movie, which
Speaker 5: everybody knows about, and then Sergeant Hayward knew that the
Speaker 5: movie wasn't playing there, so he happened to know that.
Speaker 5: That's how well he knew that neighborhood. But he also
Speaker 5: at the front seat was unbolted, and he thought that
Speaker 5: was suspicious. So when Bundy agreed to search the car,
Speaker 5: then he saw that, as you say, with which would
Speaker 5: he thought was consistent with a burglary kit. But as
Speaker 5: we know, as you point out, it's a satchel with
Speaker 5: a ski mask, a crowbar, some rope, and some wire.
Speaker 5: So he's placed under arrest. So what happens He's placed
Speaker 5: under arrest. But what happens? Does he get bail? How
Speaker 5: do they proceed?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he gets gets down on bail and he's just
Speaker 3: kind of under surveillance because they kind of suspect him
Speaker 3: of I guess. The next day after he's released, the
Speaker 3: officer that's was handling the Carrol Durant, kidnapping. Was looking
Speaker 3: through the through the records of what happened the night before,
Speaker 3: and he kind of noticed that there were handcuffs in
Speaker 3: that bag that Bundy had had in the back of
Speaker 3: his car, and because Carol assault had included handcuffs, he
Speaker 3: started connecting the two that maybe this is the guy
Speaker 3: that you know. He's Volkswagen. He's a young, dark haired,
Speaker 3: nice looking guy, and so he was suspicious that Bundy
Speaker 3: could be the one that had assaulted Carol the Ranch
Speaker 3: and possibly be responsible for Deborah Kent. That's kind of
Speaker 3: the the piece that started the puzzle getting to the
Speaker 3: finishing point.
Speaker 5: Now, what does it get to the point you do
Speaker 5: talk about and again you wouldn't have been privy to
Speaker 5: this about the lineup? Would you write about this in
Speaker 5: the book that Carol the Ranch and another the other witness,
Speaker 5: Gene Graham from the drama teacher from Debora Kent's school,
Speaker 5: they look at a line R photo lineup and then
Speaker 5: they look at the lineup and so what do they
Speaker 5: conclude from those lineups?
Speaker 3: They conclude that Ted Bundy is the one that was
Speaker 3: seen both at the school where never was taken and
Speaker 3: also the one that had assaulted Carol Daranch. So then
Speaker 3: he's arrested for kidnapping and he goes to trial and
Speaker 3: he's found guilty and put in jail in Utah, where
Speaker 3: he tries to escape once. Public doesn't really know about that,
Speaker 3: but he was put on a special watch out for
Speaker 3: him because he's trying to make escape plans from Utah.
Speaker 3: And then they transferred him to Colorado to stand trial
Speaker 3: for the Carol Duranch murder, Eric the Karen Campbell murder.
Speaker 5: Is it October third that you see his photo? You
Speaker 5: see your perpetrator's photo, and again, tell us when that
Speaker 5: is and what is your reaction when you see video
Speaker 5: of him.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what day that is, but it was
Speaker 3: when he was arrested for before he's charged, but when
Speaker 3: he was before he actually went to jail, but he
Speaker 3: was charged with kidnapping Carol. And they showed him being
Speaker 3: marched into the police station. So there were some detectives
Speaker 3: on either side of him, and he's just, you know,
Speaker 3: dressed like a college student, and they're addressed in casual
Speaker 3: street clothes and and they're just kind of walking down
Speaker 3: the hall together as a little group in the police station,
Speaker 3: and it's saying TV is talking about that a fellow
Speaker 3: has been arrested for in connection with the kidnapping of
Speaker 3: Carol deranch and I recognized him right away. That's when
Speaker 3: I saw him and I thought, yes, they've they've got
Speaker 3: the right guy. Most people watching it probably couldn't have
Speaker 3: decided which of those guys walking down the hall was
Speaker 3: the was the prisoner, because they were just kind of
Speaker 3: walking in the group they had that that was Ted Bundy.
Speaker 3: That's when I heard his last name and knew who
Speaker 3: he actually was.
Speaker 5: And what was your reaction when you had Did you
Speaker 5: feel more secure that he was captured? What was what
Speaker 5: was your reaction in terms of what did you feel?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was. I was believed that he was captured
Speaker 3: because then he couldn't be hurting anybody else. And I
Speaker 3: had a pretty good clue that he was just going
Speaker 3: to one of those He's just going to keep on
Speaker 3: killing people, because that's kind of kind of how his
Speaker 3: history has been going. With all of the talk about
Speaker 3: the Washington, Oregon people and all of the Utah people
Speaker 3: that I knew about, and all of the Colorado people
Speaker 3: that were just kind of starting to be discovered. I
Speaker 3: was always got away.
Speaker 5: In nineteen seventy six, you graduated college. He said it
Speaker 5: was a major milestone you in But in June nineteen
Speaker 5: ninety seven, Bundy is, yes, so is that what does
Speaker 5: that do for you?
Speaker 3: When he escapes, that totally dipped my buggy over. I
Speaker 3: had graduated, and I was on my way to starting
Speaker 3: my life, getting it back together, and I was starting
Speaker 3: to become active and starting to have friends, and life
Speaker 3: was going good. And then he escaped, and I had
Speaker 3: all kinds of I could see him finding me. You know,
Speaker 3: if he's smart enough to escape, he's smart enough to
Speaker 3: track me down. And I thought he would find me
Speaker 3: and kill me. And I knew he was going to
Speaker 3: kill more people. And I still felt guilty that I
Speaker 3: hadn't gotten Hi arrested years before. All of that guilt
Speaker 3: and all of those dead girls started their pictures coming
Speaker 3: into my face, and I found the placidale again. Then
Speaker 3: I overdosed on the placidal took far too many, and
Speaker 3: then I felt even more self loathing after I had
Speaker 3: done that, because you know, we're taught that you're not
Speaker 3: supposed to commit suicide and things. You're supposed to stay
Speaker 3: here and take whatever kind of trials life has for you.
Speaker 3: And so then I phoned a suicidal hotline and talked
Speaker 3: to a young psychologist named doctor David. And doctor David
Speaker 3: I passed out during that phone call, and he had
Speaker 3: to call trace and sent paramedics and police to my rescue.
Speaker 3: Then I came to before anybody got there and figured
Speaker 3: it out and decided i'd ever get out of bear
Speaker 3: and kind of collided with them as I was leaving
Speaker 3: my apartment. And then just as they were leaving and
Speaker 3: decided that I wasn't really in physical danger any longer.
Speaker 3: Doctor David showed up and wanted to talk to me,
Speaker 3: and I was just so angry at him because I
Speaker 3: thought that now the police know about my drug use,
Speaker 3: it's going to ruin my pharmacy career, and my whole
Speaker 3: life is down the tubes now. And I aimed all
Speaker 3: of that anger at doctor David, told him it was
Speaker 3: his fault and to get out of my life.
Speaker 5: It's a very fortunate meeting, and we'll talk. We'll talk
Speaker 5: about the importance of doctor David a little bit more.
Speaker 5: At the same time, you were worried about your boss
Speaker 5: and whether you be fired. Were you fired from your
Speaker 5: your career as a result of this.
Speaker 3: No, I wasn't that. The police came and talked to
Speaker 3: my boss, and my boss came back and I said, so,
Speaker 3: am I do I still have a job? And he says, yeah,
Speaker 3: there's no problem. People around me were just going out
Speaker 3: of their way to do nice things for me. Or
Speaker 3: I was being blessed in ways that were kind of
Speaker 3: unusual because I didn't get fired and didn't lose my job,
Speaker 3: didn't lose my pharmacy license, kind of got another chance.
Speaker 5: Now you take us to December thirtieth, nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 5: and two weeks after bun Yes, he escaped again. I
Speaker 5: can't believe the anxiety you'd have there. And he makes
Speaker 5: it to Florida, and as you say, he had to kill.
Speaker 5: January fourteenth, nineteen seventy eight, the chey Omega sorority house
Speaker 5: attacked four women in their beds, fractured skulls, jaws and
Speaker 5: broken teeth, strangled one girl with a nylon stocking, and
Speaker 5: bit Two of the victims, Margaret Bowman and Lisa Levy,
Speaker 5: were killed. Kathy Cliver and Karen Chandler were totally were
Speaker 5: badly injured and with minutes within minutes Bundy broke into
Speaker 5: Cheryl Thomas's home and bludgeoned her, fracturing her skull and
Speaker 5: leaving her death in one ear and destroying her career
Speaker 5: as a ballerina. And then on February ninth, he abducted
Speaker 5: twelve year old Kimberly Leech from her high school in
Speaker 5: Lake City. Finally he was arrested February fifteenth. They stopped
Speaker 5: him in a stolen Orange VW tell us about this
Speaker 5: last bit of frenzied murderous killing of Bundy, and how
Speaker 5: much you knew and how much was reported and how
Speaker 5: did you feel about what you did here? Of course
Speaker 5: he's on the run and you know who he is
Speaker 5: and knew what he's capable of, So how did you feel?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, no, I knew who he was until after
Speaker 3: Kimberly Leach had been killed. So the time period between
Speaker 3: the Kylemega people and Kimberly Leach that was clear in Florida,
Speaker 3: far far away. We hadn't really heard too much about it,
Speaker 3: other than there had been an attack of the school
Speaker 3: and some students had been had been murdered in their
Speaker 3: in their rooms. But we didn't really I didn't really
Speaker 3: connect it to ted Bundy until Kimberly Leach had died
Speaker 3: and they had been arrested, and then the whole thing
Speaker 3: kind of came out that it was all of those people,
Speaker 3: and again they brought back all of that, all of
Speaker 3: that old guilt and all of that old pain and
Speaker 3: all that old anxiety, just kind of every time he
Speaker 3: would get on the news, even farther down the road,
Speaker 3: when when all of his trials would come up, I
Speaker 3: needed to watch his trials and make sure he was
Speaker 3: really there and hadn't escaped again.
Speaker 5: And now in the midst of all this, you know badness,
Speaker 5: You're you're continuing in your career, but something really good
Speaker 5: happens in your life, and you meet your future husband, Barry,
Speaker 5: and and you did have to tell him that you
Speaker 5: had been raped. And so tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about meeting Barry and how you opened up to him
Speaker 5: and what was his reaction.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I met I met Barry, and I was kind
Speaker 3: of sick how that per respiratory infection, and he wanted
Speaker 3: to come over and bring me soup. I'd talked to
Speaker 3: him on the Sebee radio, the Sebee radio kind of
Speaker 3: crazed days, and my handle was trash pile Annie and
Speaker 3: his was spark Plug and we started talking on the radio,
Speaker 3: and then he wanted to meet me in person, and
Speaker 3: so he gave me his phone number and I called
Speaker 3: him and I told him where I had lived, and
Speaker 3: he came over and met me and brought me soup.
Speaker 3: How can you not fall in love with somebody who
Speaker 3: comes and brings you soup? And then we talked and
Speaker 3: we were talking about, ma'am, we should just get married
Speaker 3: because we're so much alike and when we liked the
Speaker 3: same things, and why can't we get married? What would
Speaker 3: be stopping us? And I said, well, I don't know,
Speaker 3: but you should. You should probably know that I've been
Speaker 3: raped just as part of the he was sharing things
Speaker 3: of his past and I was sharing things of mine.
Speaker 3: He said it doesn't matter, and he'd never asked any questions,
Speaker 3: and I didn't offer any any other further information, and
Speaker 3: we just kind of never ever talked about it for
Speaker 3: years until the PTSD started coming.
Speaker 5: You were married in nineteen seventy nine, and two months
Speaker 5: after the wedding and Ted Bundy was on trial for
Speaker 5: Margaret the murders of Margaret Bowman and Lisa Levy and
Speaker 5: you watched that trial, and tell us about a little
Speaker 5: bit about that experience of watching that trial and what
Speaker 5: was Ted's behavior like, what was his demeanor like at
Speaker 5: that trial and your reaction to that.
Speaker 3: Ted was acting as his own attorney. So he wasn't
Speaker 3: looking like a prisoner. We wasn't didn't have handcuffs or
Speaker 3: prison outfit on. He had nice suit, just like a lie.
Speaker 3: He was acting as his own lawyer, and he would
Speaker 3: talk to the judge and talk to the witnesses, and
Speaker 3: smile at the jury members and flirt with the ladies
Speaker 3: in the audience.
Speaker 5: Now you talked about as well that he was. You
Speaker 5: were watching this and with great attention, and nobody you know, again,
Speaker 5: nobody knows your secret, No one at all. You've never
Speaker 5: shared this secret with anyone at that time. And so
Speaker 5: at February seventh, nineteen eighty, oh pardon me, in well
Speaker 5: in in the end of nineteen seventy nine, he's finally
Speaker 5: given his sentence, which is the death sentence in the
Speaker 5: Kyomega case in February seven, nineteen eighty and the kimberly leitch.
Speaker 5: He receives his third third death sentence and after numerous delays,
Speaker 5: July twenty second, there's a stay of execution. So you
Speaker 5: say you have feelings on the death penalty, and the
Speaker 5: reason one of the reasons you have that position on
Speaker 5: the death penalty at least is that was one moment
Speaker 5: in the interviews that you watched it stood out where
Speaker 5: they had asked Ted Bundy a question on why did
Speaker 5: he kill? Tell us about your feelings about the death
Speaker 5: penalty and that interview and what you deduced from that,
Speaker 5: what your take on that was okay?
Speaker 3: In most cases, I don't believe in the death penalty.
Speaker 3: I think that things can happen, you know, there could
Speaker 3: be rage or jealousy, or drugs or alcohol, or violence
Speaker 3: or self defense. It doesn't look like self defense or
Speaker 3: or something can happen and somebody who ends up dead
Speaker 3: and somebody goes to jail for murder. But I think
Speaker 3: that you know, I'm not the same person I was
Speaker 3: twenty years ago, and probably most of those people are
Speaker 3: not the same person that they were twenty years ago,
Speaker 3: and probably the death penalty is wrong, I think in
Speaker 3: most cases. But for Ted Bundy, he needed to die.
Speaker 3: There was an interview towards the end, not the very
Speaker 3: last interviews, where he talked about pornography being the reason
Speaker 3: for his his killing, but the interviewer was asking him, so, Ted,
Speaker 3: why did you kill? And Ted kind of raised one
Speaker 3: eyebrow and cocked his head a little, made a little
Speaker 3: half smile and said, cause I liked it. Just killed
Speaker 3: cause I liked it. And I knew that he just
Speaker 3: has to die. Every time he would get out of
Speaker 3: jail or every time he would escape from jail, he
Speaker 3: just kept killing, and he would still be killing if
Speaker 3: he was not put to death.
Speaker 5: Now you had some closure with this guy's death, I
Speaker 5: would say, to a certain degree. But this is certainly
Speaker 5: not the end of the story, not the end of
Speaker 5: your or deal. But another really bright spot in your
Speaker 5: life is, besides your marriage to Barry, is Jennifer was
Speaker 5: born and Amelia your daughters. So what did that do
Speaker 5: for you? And again it's an interesting wet the end
Speaker 5: of this book, But what did that do for you?
Speaker 5: And how did that help you in your life at
Speaker 5: that time?
Speaker 3: Well, it gave me responsibility, and it gave me somebody
Speaker 3: to really care for. That was important, More important than Barry,
Speaker 3: who was an adult and could take care of himself.
Speaker 3: I needed to take care of these little girls, and
Speaker 3: that made it so important that I stopped Placidale altogether.
Speaker 3: So I got that completely out of my life and
Speaker 3: focused on raising the kids and teaching them right from wrong.
Speaker 3: I'm sure I was more cautious than most parents were
Speaker 3: and stranger danger and things like that, even if I
Speaker 3: didn't let them ride school buses and city buses and
Speaker 3: kind of a strict mother.
Speaker 5: Now that the what you talk about too, is that
Speaker 5: despite all of this, your pt PTSD is something that
Speaker 5: comes and emerges. And this gentleman that intervened on your
Speaker 5: behalf when you were reluctant to have anybody intervene on
Speaker 5: your behalf, is doctor David emerges in your life again
Speaker 5: at a time when your life is not good. Despite
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy being put away, besides Ted Bundy being dead,
Speaker 5: you still have not shared your secret with anyone. So
Speaker 5: tell us about doctor David and what he recommends and
Speaker 5: what you go through to be able to finally deal
Speaker 5: with this incredible that you kept secret for all those
Speaker 5: years and kept a part of your own. Felt it
Speaker 5: it was your fault that so many of these women died.
Speaker 5: And tell us about doctor David and the remarkable work
Speaker 5: that he had you do with him for yourself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got kind of overwhelmed with PTSD. And this
Speaker 3: was like thirty seven years after my attack with Bundy,
Speaker 3: when I thought I'd put it all together, and I'd
Speaker 3: raised my family, and I'd had a wonderful career, and
Speaker 3: I thought that I had put all that Bundy stuff
Speaker 3: so deep inside that I hardly ever even thought about it.
Speaker 3: And then I was some things happened at work and
Speaker 3: all of those memories just came flooding back, and I
Speaker 3: thought I was going crazy because PTSD is just horrible.
Speaker 3: And someone talked me into seeing a psychologist, and so
Speaker 3: I was trying to figure out, how will I find
Speaker 3: a psychologist. You can't just tell somebody things that you've
Speaker 3: never told anybody, you know, How do you pick somebody
Speaker 3: that you can talk to? And I looked in the
Speaker 3: in the on the computer, and a psychologist just jumped
Speaker 3: off the page at me. It was doctor David from
Speaker 3: all of those years ago. And I wondered if he
Speaker 3: would remember me, and and I thought, if he does,
Speaker 3: then I don't have to explain all of it because
Speaker 3: he knows I was a little bit nutty. And so
Speaker 3: I sent him an email and started seeing him, and
Speaker 3: he did remember me, and we talked about him coming
Speaker 3: to my apartment and talking to my roommate and me
Speaker 3: yelling at him and hating him, he says, He says, I,
Speaker 3: I do remember you. I went to your apartment and
Speaker 3: talked to your roommate. You didn't like me very much.
Speaker 3: He says, You're right, I didn't like you very much,
Speaker 3: but I'm giving you one more chance. And he helped me,
Speaker 3: first of all, just explain and put into words what
Speaker 3: had happened, and doing that caused all of the emotions
Speaker 3: to cause actual physical symptoms of uh things that had
Speaker 3: happened with Bundy. I. I got rashes, and I got pneumonia,
Speaker 3: and I UH bleeding gums and noses and things that
Speaker 3: were just kind of bizarre psychosomatic things that had happened.
Speaker 3: But he also more importantly took me on a trip
Speaker 3: back to the canyon, to the exact spot where that
Speaker 3: attack had happened, and let me kind of feel whatever
Speaker 3: there was to experience there, and and that kind of
Speaker 3: helped make a closure to the PTSD staff, helped seal
Speaker 3: it up and let me feel like it really was
Speaker 3: not my fault. I realized that if I had come
Speaker 3: forward and gone to the police, he probably would have
Speaker 3: just moved and packed up his Volkswagen and sold it
Speaker 3: and moved to, you know, some someplace else. Other people
Speaker 3: still would have died, maybe not the Utah people, but
Speaker 3: my my coming forward would not have stopped him. And
Speaker 3: I need to feel guilty about that.
Speaker 5: And it took you that long because we know too
Speaker 5: much time with it. But you Bury in the beginning
Speaker 5: didn't ask any questions. But when you did bring up Bundy,
Speaker 5: he wasn't as sensitive. At least that was your take
Speaker 5: on it, and at least that's what it looked like
Speaker 5: that he just didn't know how to interpret. He thought
Speaker 5: you were in harm's way, and doctor David told him, no,
Speaker 5: you did not put yourself in harm's way. It is
Speaker 5: the fault of Ted Bundy and no one else. He
Speaker 5: stalked people, he picked people, He knew when people were vulnerable.
Speaker 5: So again doctor David brought you to the point where
Speaker 5: you went back to the scene of the crime. He
Speaker 5: got to the point where he knew exactly where that
Speaker 5: was and brought you through that. But it was even
Speaker 5: more profound, And this is the most amazing part of
Speaker 5: the portion of your book, which is incredible in its entirety,
Speaker 5: is that he gets you to recall all before you
Speaker 5: go to the scene, the things that are missing in
Speaker 5: what we talked about, the things that exactly Ted Bundy
Speaker 5: said to you that I think were even worse than
Speaker 5: the assault itself, in this psychological terror that this person
Speaker 5: imposed upon you. And so before we go, I just
Speaker 5: want to for our audience, and I'll read it if
Speaker 5: you don't mind. Is that he said some things to
Speaker 5: you as he was he was straddling you on the ground,
Speaker 5: smashing your thighs, smothering you, smiling and watching you die.
Speaker 5: You say, finally he let you breathe he said, so
Speaker 5: tell me how was that for you? Did you like that? Huh?
Speaker 5: Do you like it when I pinch your nose and
Speaker 5: mouth shut like this? And you say? Cut your air
Speaker 5: supply until you ached for air? And he said, is
Speaker 5: it better for you like this again, stopping you from breathing?
Speaker 5: Would you prefer to suffocate? And he put his hands
Speaker 5: around your throat and started squeezing. So doctor David is
Speaker 5: correct in telling you very forcefully that he couldn't believe
Speaker 5: the courage rather than the shame you should have felt
Speaker 5: us the courage and the strength that you had to
Speaker 5: even carry on period, let alone feel any guilt about
Speaker 5: things you didn't do, or didn't do soon enough, or
Speaker 5: didn't say so. Ah. Again, an incredible journey that you
Speaker 5: went through to be able to meet this doctor David,
Speaker 5: and this is the person that helped you through this.
Speaker 5: It certainly wasn't the justice being with Ted Bundy, was it.
Speaker 3: No, it wasn't. And the book is not really about
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy. The book is really about victims and and
Speaker 3: the way victims are are treated and remembered. And you know,
Speaker 3: people remember the Ted Bundy's and the Jeffrey Dahmers, but
Speaker 3: they don't remember the victims. And then and to remember that,
Speaker 3: you know, the the the crime isn't over just because
Speaker 3: the assault is over. It could go on and affect
Speaker 3: people forever.
Speaker 5: It is all those and with sorry go ahead.
Speaker 3: There's all those things going on in the world now
Speaker 3: where girls on college campuses are being assaulted and they're
Speaker 3: still not daring to come forward even forty years later.
Speaker 3: And I hope that my book would kind of inspire
Speaker 3: people to dare to come forward and know that it's
Speaker 3: it's you feel better when you come forward, and the
Speaker 3: only way to break that stigma is to have more
Speaker 3: people coming forward.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, and as well. You this really is a story
Speaker 5: of coming together in your own family as well. Because
Speaker 5: your daughters didn't know this secret. I can't even imagine
Speaker 5: keeping any kind of secret like this at all, how
Speaker 5: hard it would be, and how it affected your behavior
Speaker 5: and your treatment of your daughters. And they didn't know
Speaker 5: and realize that till you would revealed the secret to them.
Speaker 5: So tell us just as you do. It is a
Speaker 5: story of love and unconditional love and understanding once everybody
Speaker 5: gets the the you know, the assistance of doctor David
Speaker 5: and other people into the family realizing what you have
Speaker 5: gone through in its entirety.
Speaker 3: Yes, so how's a happy ending?
Speaker 5: Yeah? And your this book is tell us about the
Speaker 5: sort of the genesis of this book. How did it
Speaker 5: come to be that a rule was involved in writing
Speaker 5: the forward? And just tell us a little bit about
Speaker 5: the book itself.
Speaker 3: The book itself wasn't intended to be a book. I
Speaker 3: never ever thought I would write a book. I thought
Speaker 3: I was doing really great just by telling the ten
Speaker 3: people on my list of close people that I finally
Speaker 3: ended up telling doctor David, and my immediate family. I
Speaker 3: still hadn't told my mother until the book was ready
Speaker 3: to come write out and was already printed and real
Speaker 3: before my siblings and my mother found out. But the
Speaker 3: thing about it was that thought I talked to different
Speaker 3: people about should I publish this book or not because
Speaker 3: I had a feeling that it could help somebody else,
Speaker 3: because part of the PTSD experience is such a feeling
Speaker 3: of loneliness, like you were the only person on the
Speaker 3: entire planet that can possibly feel the way that you're feeling.
Speaker 3: And I thought that I'm not, and if I can
Speaker 3: help other PEO people to feel like they're not the
Speaker 3: only person who can feel is feeling that way, that
Speaker 3: would maybe help somebody somewhere. And so I started talking
Speaker 3: to some people saying maybe i'd have published this book.
Speaker 3: What happened is I was journaling. Doctor David had me
Speaker 3: start journaling. I thought, maybe if I just write down
Speaker 3: what happened to me, then maybe I don't have to
Speaker 3: even tell anybody. I can just write it down and
Speaker 3: throw it away and I'll feel better. But that journaling
Speaker 3: became the book, and some people told me, you know,
Speaker 3: don't expect to sell very many, because who really is
Speaker 3: going to be interested in a forty year old rape.
Speaker 3: I'd be kind of like, how many people would want
Speaker 3: to hear about somebody who survived Jack the Ripper, And
Speaker 3: I'm thinking I would tell me, I want to know
Speaker 3: how they found Jack the Ripper and how they ought
Speaker 3: of way, and what they told their family and all
Speaker 3: of that stuff that I would be very interested. So
Speaker 3: I was thinking that maybe I would publish it, and
Speaker 3: then the publishing process is so complicated and so ridiculously difficult,
Speaker 3: just plain difficult. And someone told me that maybe I
Speaker 3: would have a better time selling my book to a
Speaker 3: publisher if I wrote it as fiction, and kind of
Speaker 3: just what if this had happened? And I thought, no,
Speaker 3: you know, I spent my whole life pretending this never happened,
Speaker 3: and now I've got the courage and decided to tell it,
Speaker 3: and they want me to pretend it didn't happen. So
Speaker 3: you know, it's been a secret for forty years. I'll
Speaker 3: just keep it being a secret for forty more years.
Speaker 3: And who cares. But I spent so much time and
Speaker 3: energy on it that I thought somebody on the planet
Speaker 3: should read this book, and if only one person could
Speaker 3: read it. That person should be Anne Rule because she
Speaker 3: knew Ted Bundy and she wrote The Stranger Beside Me
Speaker 3: and she's been my kind of my low secret hero,
Speaker 3: and so I tried to contact her. I couldn't, but
Speaker 3: I contacted her daughter, and her daughter offered me a contract.
Speaker 3: She said, you know, we have a publishing company. He
Speaker 3: said no, I didn't know that. He says, we're going
Speaker 3: to do all kinds of good stuff and going to
Speaker 3: get my mom to write your forward. And she did.
Speaker 3: It was probably the last thing that that sweet lady
Speaker 3: did before she passed away last year.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's tragic, tragic. Yeah. I got to speak to
Speaker 5: Anne Rule in two thousand and five and just just
Speaker 5: an amazing honor to be able to speak with her.
Speaker 5: And she's so important to not only the true crime genre,
Speaker 5: just to justice itself and victimology where the victim is recognized.
Speaker 5: I mean, that's Anne Rule's hallmark was to have the
Speaker 5: victim stories told before that it really wasn't, I mean really,
Speaker 5: And so anyway, I want I want to say, yeah,
Speaker 5: that's very interesting that Anne Rule got so involved and
Speaker 5: rightfully so this book is just incredible. And of course
Speaker 5: she would be again, there's something that Anne Rule would
Speaker 5: be interested in hearing and reading was your book itself too,
Speaker 5: So I think it was very interesting for Anne Rule
Speaker 5: to be reading about it survivor of again after she
Speaker 5: had told the story, and there was so many other
Speaker 5: people that came forward claiming that they were they met
Speaker 5: Ted or they escaped Ted narrowly. So again a very
Speaker 5: very good testament of how important this story is and
Speaker 5: what you had to say.
Speaker 3: And it's so good that she'd validate me absolutely. Part
Speaker 3: of the reasons to not tell is because you think
Speaker 3: people won't believe you. Anyway, she believed me, and I
Speaker 3: liked that.
Speaker 5: And I think more importantly too, Doctor David was another
Speaker 5: guy that gave you a lot of validation to again
Speaker 5: your story being so incredible. And again he wasn't sort
Speaker 5: of a fan. He was there to help you out,
Speaker 5: but he knew the story. And it's how profound it
Speaker 5: was as well that we're dealing with this kind of
Speaker 5: person Ted Bundy, the most again, most notorious infamous serial
Speaker 5: killer probably ever, and the story he had and the
Speaker 5: dilemma he had with somebody that had repressed this story
Speaker 5: for so long, like yourself, and then it had come
Speaker 5: to him, and so it is an amazing story of
Speaker 5: this actually working this psychology stuff and counseling, and it's
Speaker 5: a pretty amazing story. I want to thank you for
Speaker 5: coming on. I want to thank you for coming on
Speaker 5: and talking about this.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 5: Do you have a Facebook? People communicate with you a Facebook?
Speaker 5: Do you have a website? How would people contact you
Speaker 5: or look for more information if so desired?
Speaker 3: I am on Facebook under Ronda Stately. There's also a
Speaker 3: website I Survived Ted Bundy dot com. I have some
Speaker 3: purchase information and link to Amazon.
Speaker 5: Well, that's great. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 5: of Rhonda for coming on and talking about I Survived
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy, the attack, escape and PTSD to change my life.
Speaker 5: It has been a very big pleasure. Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: Incredible book, and thank you for taking the time to
Speaker 5: come on and reveal all those things that only you
Speaker 5: could have known about one of the most incredible killers
Speaker 5: in all time. So thank you very much. You have
Speaker 5: a great evening.
Speaker 3: Okay, Thank you Dan, thank you Ronda.
Speaker 5: Good night, Okay.