Speaker 1: Welcome to Skin and Soul. I'm Gwenhemkarsley, a transformational body,
Speaker 1: sex and Soul coach, and I'm inviting you on a bold,
Speaker 1: unfiltered journey into the heart.
Speaker 2: Of our humanity through the lens of arrows. This is
Speaker 2: where we strip away.
Speaker 1: The shame, dive into the unspoken, and embrace the wild,
Speaker 1: raw truth of our desires.
Speaker 2: Together, we'll crack.
Speaker 1: Open the taboo and cover our deepest intimacies and awaken
Speaker 1: the pulse of our sexual essence. Because real transformation it's messy,
Speaker 1: it's thrilling, and it's oh so delicious. Buckle up.
Speaker 3: Loves.
Speaker 1: Skin and Soul Beyond the Pale starts in three two one.
Speaker 1: Let's go.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome. I'm Gwenhem. I'm your host of Skin
Speaker 2: and Soul Beyond the Pale. And the question I have
Speaker 2: for you today is the sex or the desire for
Speaker 2: sex really fizzle and fade out over time? Today I'm
Speaker 2: joined in conversation with Caroline Hood, who is a certified
Speaker 2: sex therapist. She's also the author of her forthcoming book
Speaker 2: called Sex Begets Reclaiming Desire, Power and Pleasure in Long
Speaker 2: Term Love, where she challenges the assumptions we have about
Speaker 2: intimacy and desire in long term relationships. And I love
Speaker 2: this topic because I have experienced this first time. So welcome, Caroline.
Speaker 3: Oh, thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2: So I want to start with I also know that
Speaker 2: you have a full, busy life and a very intimacy world,
Speaker 2: and I want to start there because relationships take work
Speaker 2: and take some spice, and you've managed to keep it
Speaker 2: going for your life.
Speaker 3: Yeah for a while now. Yeah, my husband and I
Speaker 3: we will be celebrating our fifteenth wedding anniversary in a
Speaker 3: couple of weeks and been together longer than that, and
Speaker 3: it's sort of wild to think about that long of
Speaker 3: the time and that we're at this place. We've got
Speaker 3: three kids, like two dogs, a busy life, and we're
Speaker 3: having some of the best sex we've ever had. You know,
Speaker 3: we're fully in love, fully lest and I think it's
Speaker 3: just this really special time in our lives, and this
Speaker 3: time where I get to reflect on the fact that
Speaker 3: this is so possible, Like this is so possible. He
Speaker 3: and I are We're nothing special, you know, we're not
Speaker 3: unique snowflakes. I think that's important, is that this is
Speaker 3: really doable and I'm so excited to talk about it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Did you always have that kind of relationship where it
Speaker 2: felt that you could talk about sex that you or
Speaker 2: did you get to a place where it was fading
Speaker 2: and you were like, well, something's going on with me?
Speaker 3: Yeah. We certainly had moments where we had to be
Speaker 3: extra intentional, like when we became parents and when life
Speaker 3: got more logistically challenging. But I don't have a story
Speaker 3: that says, oh, we got to rock bottom and we
Speaker 3: were about to split and then we brought it back.
Speaker 3: We really did intentionally center our sexual relationship and our
Speaker 3: intimacy throughout the course of our relationship. It's really something
Speaker 3: we've always communicated about in a way that I think
Speaker 3: we knew that that was something that was going to
Speaker 3: keep us a couple over the long haul and over
Speaker 3: all the stresses that life brought to us. We didn't
Speaker 3: know exactly what that looked like, but we certainly had
Speaker 3: this perspective early on, and then I think because we
Speaker 3: had that early on, we were able to continue to
Speaker 3: come back to that foundation and really sort of exercise
Speaker 3: those muscles when we needed them the most when life
Speaker 3: got really really challenging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what does it look like to bring in intentionality?
Speaker 2: So for couples out there that just let.
Speaker 3: It go, don't even know? Yeah, and that's so common,
Speaker 3: I know, and I don't. I think it's important for
Speaker 3: couples and particularly women not to feel like, oh gosh,
Speaker 3: they screwed up and feel shame or feel bad about them.
Speaker 3: I think it's so normal, and it's just it's it's
Speaker 3: just sort of what happens. It's what we're told. We're
Speaker 3: told that it will fade, so it really I mean,
Speaker 3: communication is key. I know that's like not a hot take, right,
Speaker 3: it's it's everywhere, but it's important. Communication about sex, about intimacy,
Speaker 3: about desire, about your wants outside of the bedroom, you know,
Speaker 3: at other points in your life. I think are so
Speaker 3: important to remember. Hey, you know, we don't want to
Speaker 3: be roommates. We don't want to just be co parents
Speaker 3: or co workers. We want to continue to be lovers.
Speaker 3: So what does this look like? How do we make
Speaker 3: this happen? Life is so busy, how do we how
Speaker 3: do we embed this so it's not just this cherry
Speaker 3: on top when everything else is settled and perfect, Because
Speaker 3: that I don't know, I haven't achieved that. Yeah, like,
Speaker 3: that's a magical land that if you found it, let
Speaker 3: me know. But I don't think it exists, So you
Speaker 3: have to figure out how to make it happen amid
Speaker 3: all of the chaos.
Speaker 2: And I think people think that either talking about sex
Speaker 2: one can bring up a lot of shame, but also
Speaker 2: that it can be un sexy, or that having intentional
Speaker 2: sex or putting it on the calendar is unsexy. And
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think it's I don't think it's true.
Speaker 3: I think a couple of things, you know, So we
Speaker 3: think about spontaneity, and I think I just I'm constantly
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm telling people, but we never had
Speaker 3: spontaneous sex. I mean, whether it was when you were
Speaker 3: single and going to clubs or bars, or going out
Speaker 3: with friends, or early ener your relationship when you weren't
Speaker 3: before you were living together and you were going on dates.
Speaker 3: All of those were highly curated events with getting ready
Speaker 3: and dancing and drinking and meeting at the same place
Speaker 3: and planning for it, and down to logistics of uh,
Speaker 3: how how soon before a date are you masturbating or
Speaker 3: not masturbating. I mean, everybody was thinking so much about it,
Speaker 3: so so I don't know why we have the idea
Speaker 3: that sex was spontaneous then and somehow once you're in
Speaker 3: your midlife and you're organizing your sex life around your
Speaker 3: kids soccer games, like, that's so different. It's it's it's
Speaker 3: the same thing. So so I think we sort of
Speaker 3: fundamentally get that wrong. And then if we can recognize
Speaker 3: that that then it doesn't feel like such a roadblock.
Speaker 3: And then talking about sex, Oh my gosh, that's so fun.
Speaker 3: It's for play, Like that's some of the greatest type
Speaker 3: of foreplay is getting to getting to talk about it
Speaker 3: and look forward to it and anticipate it. I think
Speaker 3: I think talking about sex is very sexy. I think
Speaker 3: the people who think that talking about sex is un
Speaker 3: sexy is when they're only bringing it up when it's frop.
Speaker 3: They're only bringing it up when it's a you don't
Speaker 3: do this anymore? How come you? You know, it's an
Speaker 3: antagonistic conversation and communication as opposed to ooh what could
Speaker 3: we do? You know, exploratory exciting.
Speaker 2: I agree. I think I think having that sexy kind
Speaker 2: of talk gets you in the mood and has the
Speaker 2: imagination start flowing and the body starts getting ready. Just
Speaker 2: that the idea of it, and people have this idea
Speaker 2: I think generally speaking that sex just fades over time,
Speaker 2: that when you're in a long term relationship, you know
Speaker 2: the desire for it. And I think that, and it's
Speaker 2: been proven scientifically that when your body doesn't have sex, right,
Speaker 2: that's that's when the desire starts to fade more rather
Speaker 2: than when you're doing it more your body's more revped
Speaker 2: and practiced and so on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's certainly a sort of practice component
Speaker 3: to it, right, which is the more the sort of
Speaker 3: what I write about in sex, we get sex. So
Speaker 3: the more you do it, the better you get at it,
Speaker 3: the more pleasurable it is. Is so therefore, the more
Speaker 3: you want it and it turns into this really positive
Speaker 3: feedback loop. But you're right, though, there's this narrative out
Speaker 3: there that tells us, oh, you know, your hot, spicy
Speaker 3: sex life is for your twenties or for whatever, and
Speaker 3: it's certainly not after you become parents, certainly not after
Speaker 3: a decade into a relationship. And so I think what's
Speaker 3: unfortunate is people buy into that myth, right, and so
Speaker 3: then when things start to fade, they don't do anything
Speaker 3: about it because they think it's inevitable, you know, they
Speaker 3: think it's destiny, as opposed to a problem that you
Speaker 3: would look at and say, oh, gosh, my eyes are
Speaker 3: getting worse, I should go to the doctor. But when
Speaker 3: people say, oh, my sex life is getting worse, well,
Speaker 3: they think that's normal, and so they just it just
Speaker 3: keeps going, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think they just get suppressed in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways. So when you see women, ause you're
Speaker 2: a sex therapist, what do you think is the most
Speaker 2: common complaint that comes up or the greatest desires that
Speaker 2: seem to be spoken about.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think so many women feel like sex
Speaker 3: is turned into an obligation, right, It's turned into just
Speaker 3: one more thing that they have to do for someone
Speaker 3: else because they're not actually really getting anything out of it.
Speaker 3: They don't see it as something that's for them, It's
Speaker 3: only for somebody else. I think that, I mean, I'm
Speaker 3: missuming you here similarly, Like, I think that's just very common,
Speaker 3: it is, and I think.
Speaker 2: It's so sad that that part, that component is denied,
Speaker 2: especially to women, that there's just this assumption of oh,
Speaker 2: it's gone, I have no desire for sex, and I
Speaker 2: always take that as a sex and the fuel of sex,
Speaker 2: That sensuality is part of what keeps us young alive,
Speaker 2: wanting to engage in life in so many other ways.
Speaker 2: So I don't know if you have thoughts around that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean absolutely. I mean I think there's this
Speaker 3: sort of identity shift that can happen with a lot
Speaker 3: of women when they either the age or in midlife,
Speaker 3: or potentially when they become mothers or sort of all
Speaker 3: of it, where where they previously were a sexual being
Speaker 3: and then they aged into these other brackets or categories
Speaker 3: and so they had to relinquish and abandon that sexual self,
Speaker 3: and so they don't even see it as part of
Speaker 3: their personhood anymore. And that is this piece like you're
Speaker 3: just talking about this piece of oh, but it's so
Speaker 3: much just a fundamental right, And I think there's so
Speaker 3: many women who don't ever actually feel like they were
Speaker 3: given permission for that right or validated to have their
Speaker 3: own desires or their own pleasure right. So it's easy
Speaker 3: to sort of set to the side because they never
Speaker 3: felt like it was valid and for them it was
Speaker 3: always performed or it was always something that was for
Speaker 3: somebody else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as women get older, so I've definitely hit
Speaker 2: that menopausal stage that all of a sudden desire goes
Speaker 2: to die. And I know when I was married that
Speaker 2: the intentionality wasn't there, and we had very different sex
Speaker 2: drives and so everything started to fizz and fade, and
Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, I mean I was actually
Speaker 2: starving where I think a lot of people push it
Speaker 2: down and so but what I realized is, oh, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: my body is hungry for still wanting more in a relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I mean, I think it's great that you
Speaker 3: you I identified that because because, like like you said,
Speaker 3: I think a lot of women it's just fully repressed,
Speaker 3: like they don't even realize what they're missing, and they
Speaker 3: feel sort of numb to I talked to women and
Speaker 3: girlfriends that are just sort of they're fine, you know,
Speaker 3: and I think they really truly believe that they're fine,
Speaker 3: And certainly some are, but I think there's a majority
Speaker 3: of them that don't even realize what has happened to
Speaker 3: their identities, and they don't know where to begin to
Speaker 3: either bring it back it like in your case or
Speaker 3: or like figure it out in the first place. Sometimes
Speaker 3: that's happening in the first place in your mid forties
Speaker 3: or later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a friend of mine and I'm gonna
Speaker 2: might hate me for saying this, Oh and identify it,
Speaker 2: says to me, you know, when she's not in the mood,
Speaker 2: her husband will say to her, what does he say?
Speaker 2: You have? Something like would it kill you to have
Speaker 2: an orgasm? And I love that line, And that's kind
Speaker 2: of how they reconnect again as life gets really busy,
Speaker 2: because there's also a component to taking time with yourself
Speaker 2: that you know, taking that that moment for touch, for
Speaker 2: getting juicy, getting getting the arousal flowing, which is another
Speaker 2: thing that I think happens. So how do you address
Speaker 2: having you know, these slots of time not necessarily just
Speaker 2: to jump in for a quick like a quickie, although
Speaker 2: quickies can be great's creating time also in space for
Speaker 2: for for just deeper intimacy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, I mean it's hard, Like life is busy, right,
Speaker 3: So it's not most people don't have three hours multiple
Speaker 3: times a week just to lean into this and go
Speaker 3: nice and slow. And so I think there's a couple
Speaker 3: of things just living in reality of the world, which
Speaker 3: is that that that foreplay. You know, foreplay is all day,
Speaker 3: every day, right, so so that when you do actually
Speaker 3: enter into a sexual encounter, you're you're you're ready in
Speaker 3: many ways because you've built up same anticipation since the
Speaker 3: last time you had sex. So that's important. I also think,
Speaker 3: you know, we're all in our phones way too often,
Speaker 3: like we all actually have more time than we probably
Speaker 3: say we do or think we do. So it goes
Speaker 3: back to that intention. If this is something that you
Speaker 3: really care about in your relationship, like do an audit,
Speaker 3: think about think about where time is lost and where
Speaker 3: are you Have you created a story that you have
Speaker 3: no time even the busiest of people. I think if
Speaker 3: you really look and sort of and get creative with
Speaker 3: your time, you can find it. So I definitely challenge
Speaker 3: people to accurately, sort of honestly reflect on are they
Speaker 3: actually being intentional? You know, are you waiting till the
Speaker 3: end of the day when you're exhausted, Like I don't
Speaker 3: do that. I actually don't know a lot of people
Speaker 3: that are really successful in that approach. So so find
Speaker 3: other times of day, Find times of day when you're
Speaker 3: not completely drained and touched out, you know. Again, it's
Speaker 3: it might sound like logistics planning, but it's it can
Speaker 3: be fun and then it can support that really really
Speaker 3: playful side. I think your friend's story is funny because
Speaker 3: what I hear is like bringing back some levity. You know,
Speaker 3: would it kill you to have an organism like, let's
Speaker 3: remember that this is supposed to be fun and playful,
Speaker 3: and this doesn't need to be really fraught.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't need to be a chore. Again, I
Speaker 2: was in a room full of women, all of them
Speaker 2: i'm going to say, either perimenopausal or menopausal. And what
Speaker 2: was interesting in the room was you had women that
Speaker 2: were having great sex with their partners, one who was
Speaker 2: desiring to have great sex with their partner because her
Speaker 2: body was changing so much, and that's the other thing
Speaker 2: is sometimes you have to rediscover your body. And then
Speaker 2: there was another woman who just said, well, you know,
Speaker 2: get over it, just except that you know, this is
Speaker 2: no longer a part of your life, which really shocked me.
Speaker 2: So it was just a very different set of you know, women.
Speaker 3: You had a whole continuummen in that room, which was
Speaker 3: really interesting.
Speaker 2: And I think there's this idea that as we age
Speaker 2: that it just simply dies. And I think for those
Speaker 2: women that kind of disconnect themselves from it, what do
Speaker 2: you see with them?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that disconnection is is spot on, and
Speaker 3: it's that back to that abandonment. You know, we've abandoned this,
Speaker 3: this piece of what it I think it is to
Speaker 3: be to be fully human, to be fully female, to
Speaker 3: be to live an erotic life and using that expansive
Speaker 3: definition of erotic, not not just oh that's about an orgasm,
Speaker 3: but erotic in that sort of zest for life and women,
Speaker 3: I just think so many are falling into that that
Speaker 3: fallacy that it is inevitable for things just to slide.
Speaker 3: And as our bodies change, certainly hormones change. And luckily
Speaker 3: there's more opportunities for us now to replace hormones and
Speaker 3: to be advocates for our own health and to say, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, I still want to have a great sex life.
Speaker 3: Still I still want to feel good, and so how
Speaker 3: can your GPS and your medical doctors help you help
Speaker 3: support that libido side and the hormonal side that is shifting.
Speaker 3: And I think it's really interesting because there is this
Speaker 3: pocket of women in their parimen apuzzle and a puzzle
Speaker 3: that are having their sexual peak because I think in
Speaker 3: many ways they they're just like I don't care what
Speaker 3: the performative nature is being relinquished. They don't want to
Speaker 3: try so hard. They want to get to know themselves
Speaker 3: for the first time potentially ever. And it's really fun
Speaker 3: to see this growing group of women that are like, hey,
Speaker 3: this is amazing, and I'm middle age and beyond and
Speaker 3: it only gets better.
Speaker 2: I agree, because there's something that happens around like not
Speaker 2: having children anymore that are in the home, you all
Speaker 2: of a sudden have freedom and to be able to
Speaker 2: relearn your body and explore in ways. So you brought
Speaker 2: up a great topic, which is having an erotic life
Speaker 2: or to rediscovering the erotic and the aarrows, and I'd
Speaker 2: love you to expand on what that looks like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know, it's different for everyone, but
Speaker 3: there's there's just some really beautiful ways of thinking about
Speaker 3: our life. And it's not just oh, what makes me
Speaker 3: happy or what doesn't from this sort of very cognitive space,
Speaker 3: right like I like that, I don't like that, I
Speaker 3: like to hike. I don't you know. But it's it's
Speaker 3: more of this full body, expansive embracing of what life
Speaker 3: has to offer, and that includes sexual but it includes food,
Speaker 3: and it includes you know, what we do throughout the
Speaker 3: day and how we think and how we interact and
Speaker 3: this sort of I think it's really hard to describe.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm curious to hear how you define it.
Speaker 3: But it is a full it's a full life approach
Speaker 3: really that says, I am this erotic being in and
Speaker 3: out of the bedroom, and I will embrace life with
Speaker 3: a with the full expansiveness of all all of my components.
Speaker 3: That's that's really how I feel about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that for me, there there's this a
Speaker 2: liveness component where everything is alive within the body and
Speaker 2: it's very embodied. So the performance goes away and there's
Speaker 2: this connection between I would consider even that there's this
Speaker 2: intimacy within yourself and then this created intimacy with the world.
Speaker 2: So I love that someone said, oh, you can flirt
Speaker 2: with a flower, you can flirt with a child. You know,
Speaker 2: it has nothing to do with sex as we think
Speaker 2: of it. It's more of that fuel that drives this. Uh.
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it's a deliciousness in life and
Speaker 2: brings out a lot of creativity. And idea.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's you know is Sarah Para. She's quoted
Speaker 3: so much, but she has all these wonderful things. And
Speaker 3: she was talking, i'm sure you know, talking about the
Speaker 3: folks who survived after the Holocaust, and she talked about
Speaker 3: the people who who lived and the people who didn't die,
Speaker 3: and she described the difference between those two groups of
Speaker 3: individuals as people who were able to rediscover their erotic
Speaker 3: selves and those who weren't. So if they didn't, yes,
Speaker 3: they didn't die, but they weren't fully alive. So it
Speaker 3: is just it is just this aliveness. Yeah, as you
Speaker 3: said that, so many women, I mean, I talk with
Speaker 3: I was just talking to a girlfriend recently whose mid
Speaker 3: forties and kids are teens and the marriage is really
Speaker 3: on the rocks. And she I lived with her when
Speaker 3: we were in our twenties, and she was this alive
Speaker 3: person and I saw her and I thought, oh, she
Speaker 3: she's just not you know, she just appeared to be
Speaker 3: the shell. She was sort of going through the motions
Speaker 3: and I could see her and she was talking and
Speaker 3: she was walking, and she was going through the emotions.
Speaker 3: But she just I felt like she was gone. And
Speaker 3: I think a lot of women feel that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that as well, that there's something
Speaker 2: that happens, there's kind of a fork in the road.
Speaker 2: We get these opportunities in life, and I've seen people
Speaker 2: that just get shut down. And I think a lot
Speaker 2: of it has to do with the should factor, Right,
Speaker 2: I shouldn't be living life this way. This is my obligation,
Speaker 2: this is my this is what life is, as opposed
Speaker 2: to what can life be? How can I create it
Speaker 2: for myself instead of answering to the voices in my head,
Speaker 2: my family, my society, my partner, whatever it is.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, and I think with that should too. There's
Speaker 3: so many women who who sort of wake up and
Speaker 3: they go, Okay, well, I have the husband, I have
Speaker 3: the two kids, have the dog, I have the house,
Speaker 3: the picket fence, I have the whole dream that I
Speaker 3: envisioned for the last forty years. And here I am
Speaker 3: and I'm not that happy. But you look around and everybody,
Speaker 3: I think the message is just like, oh, but be grateful,
Speaker 3: Like just you should be grateful because you have everything
Speaker 3: you wanted, which I you know, gratitude is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3: But when I hear that messaging, I just think It
Speaker 3: is a way to tell women to shut up and
Speaker 3: to settle and to not actually go for what they want.
Speaker 3: And I think that messaging gets gets, you know, shoved
Speaker 3: at women that they should just be happy for what
Speaker 3: they have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I can really speak to that because that's
Speaker 2: that was definitely part of my journey. I had everything,
Speaker 2: and I had a loving wife, I had a really
Speaker 2: good life, and I just thought, I have to be grateful.
Speaker 2: I have to be grateful. And I found myself continually
Speaker 2: unhappy in my life and so thought, oh god, I
Speaker 2: you know, I can't I can't leave, you know, and
Speaker 2: to what? And I think there's this scariness of if
Speaker 2: I and it's habitual, right, we don't want to leave
Speaker 2: what's really comfortable. But it challenges And I'm lucky because
Speaker 2: I did have that Kundalini kind of awakening where my
Speaker 2: body just would not leave me alone. My body was like, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: you're not You're not going off to dine.
Speaker 3: I'm sure. Yeah, but I'm sure people looked at you
Speaker 3: and thought, well, you're crazy, Like your life is what
Speaker 3: most people are striving for.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And there's a lot of judgments, so there
Speaker 2: is there is courage involved whether you're you want to
Speaker 2: stay in your partnership or not, but bringing in that intentionality.
Speaker 2: And I love that you brought up masturbation as well.
Speaker 2: As I was just thinking about I was reading something
Speaker 2: around reading fantasies, how women will also you know, lead
Speaker 2: themselves into fantasy, which has again you know, like porn,
Speaker 2: can be both a good thing. I think it's great
Speaker 2: to know what your fantasies are, that you can happen
Speaker 2: too those and say. But I was also just thinking
Speaker 2: about reading books. I love reading great erotic literature just
Speaker 2: to yeah, well.
Speaker 3: Because sometimes you don't you know, you don't know what
Speaker 3: you don't know, or you can imagine what you've you've
Speaker 3: sort of never had any architecture for. And and I
Speaker 3: think the the huge growth of romanticy and dark romance
Speaker 3: and erotica that women are just buying off the shelves
Speaker 3: is just such a testament to the fact that that
Speaker 3: desire isn't dead right, that they that they wanted, that
Speaker 3: women are craving it, but they don't know how to
Speaker 3: maybe take it from the fiction shelves and put it
Speaker 3: back into the reality of their own day to day life, and.
Speaker 2: So that they're either hiding the book. Actually, they're not
Speaker 2: hiding it anymore. I remember this this documentary saying, like
Speaker 2: everybody's reading fifty Shades of Gray on the bus, right, right,
Speaker 2: That's something which I actually think is great. But again
Speaker 2: for me, you know, I was hiding the box of toys.
Speaker 2: I was like, I was, I was in. It was
Speaker 2: in the closet, it was it was my big secret,
Speaker 2: because even though we were great in communication in so
Speaker 2: many other ways, that's not where we were great. That
Speaker 2: was so, you know, in terms of teaching women their
Speaker 2: voice and how to ask for what they want, what
Speaker 2: do you what do you think shows up?
Speaker 3: I think it's hard. I mean I think it's hard
Speaker 3: for men too, But it's hard because we we're never
Speaker 3: you know, we're never taught vocabulary around this, right, We're taught,
Speaker 3: we're taught that this is private or taboo, or it's
Speaker 3: shameful or it's bad, and so we're we don't have
Speaker 3: language for it. So I always want to tell people like,
Speaker 3: don't feel bad, Okay, you're not You're not messed up,
Speaker 3: you're not screwed up, Like, don't feel bad. We know
Speaker 3: you you never learned this. But I also think it's
Speaker 3: important to start those conversations if couples want to do
Speaker 3: that from a place of from a place of want.
Speaker 3: And so instead of coming and saying, you know, how
Speaker 3: come you don't touch me or in whatever it might be,
Speaker 3: that sort of accusatory, rather come and say, I'm I'm
Speaker 3: missing our sexual lives. I'm missing this sexual part of me.
Speaker 3: We used, we used to do these things. And I'm
Speaker 3: not placing blame. I'm just I'm I'm saying I want
Speaker 3: that back. I miss that, and I miss wanting you,
Speaker 3: and I miss being wanted by you, and I wonder
Speaker 3: if we could. I wonder if we could go on
Speaker 3: this exploration together. And I think that framing into a conversation,
Speaker 3: Not that that's going to solve everything, but it's certainly more
Speaker 3: of an approach oriented conversation, right, It's more connected as
Speaker 3: opposed to a to just a resentment, you know, throwing
Speaker 3: resentments at your partner for not being everything you want
Speaker 3: them to be.
Speaker 2: That's the first is not resenting the partner for not
Speaker 2: being everything that you want them to be. To show
Speaker 2: up with with a want, without the expectation that they
Speaker 2: can necessarily fill that want, but at least that there's
Speaker 2: an open table to talk without judgement.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, I mean it would. I think we're
Speaker 3: fed these myths that like, if it's true love, they'll
Speaker 3: just know you and the chemistry will be amazing and
Speaker 3: that'll just happen without ever having to say a word,
Speaker 3: and they'll.
Speaker 2: Watch right, They're gonna want exactly what you want all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 3: And as your desires changed, theirs will change accordingly. And
Speaker 3: isn't that And so I think again, that's just a
Speaker 3: setup for couples to think that if they talk about it,
Speaker 3: that must mean that there's something inherently wrong with their
Speaker 3: connection or their dynamic, and so all of the it's
Speaker 3: really it's really just a bummer because the messaging out
Speaker 3: there is setting up so many people to fail. So
Speaker 3: just coming in with that communication of going, oh right,
Speaker 3: even though they love me and they've been with me
Speaker 3: for twenty years, it doesn't mean they actually know what
Speaker 3: I want. I'm not even sure what I want. And hopefully,
Speaker 3: as we as we evolve, what you wanted ten years
Speaker 3: ago is maybe not what you want today, and maybe
Speaker 3: it won't be what you want ten years from now,
Speaker 3: and recognizing that that within you is evolving and then,
Speaker 3: so certainly as a couple, it's going to have to evolve.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so what do you think for you has
Speaker 2: changed in your own intimacy with your husband and your
Speaker 2: partner and what you wanted in your twenties what you
Speaker 2: want now?
Speaker 3: I mean, I think even as I said, you know,
Speaker 3: we always prioritized our sexual connection in our relationship. But
Speaker 3: I grew up in a very religious household and didn't
Speaker 3: know anything. And we were married. We met when we
Speaker 3: were twenty five, and so as much as I knew
Speaker 3: sex was important and I valued it, I didn't have
Speaker 3: language around it. I didn't really know. I think I
Speaker 3: was still very much performing what I thought men wanted.
Speaker 3: And so over time I have just gotten to know
Speaker 3: myself more. Having children changed my relationship with my body
Speaker 3: actually in a really positive way. And so even though
Speaker 3: it changed and hormones were challenging, it also made me
Speaker 3: really appreciate my body in a way that I never
Speaker 3: had and allowed me to understand myself more. And and
Speaker 3: I've just continued to be less coy and less shy.
Speaker 3: I certainly had that. So I'm just having more fun
Speaker 3: and I think he is too, and he's we're more comfortable.
Speaker 3: You know, all of that comes with time, that that
Speaker 3: vulnerability and intimacy of connection. We feel so much more
Speaker 3: secure with one another. So I think we are not
Speaker 3: afraid to really be who we want to be.
Speaker 2: That's really nice that pregnancy and having children brought you
Speaker 2: closer to your body and didn't have you abandon your body,
Speaker 2: because I think there's that opposite side as well. I
Speaker 2: know for myself again, you know, I my the left
Speaker 2: side of my body went numb during birth. After birth,
Speaker 2: I just lost I'm going to say, nerve connection to
Speaker 2: a side. And my body did all kinds of things
Speaker 2: in terms of twisting out of different shape, different all
Speaker 2: of it. And then I learned to love your body.
Speaker 2: And you have a few children, so tell me how
Speaker 2: you like cultivated that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's gosh, it's so interesting, you know, to
Speaker 3: talk about pregnancy and birth and you know, I know
Speaker 3: these women who who had traumatic births and so their
Speaker 3: relationship with their body was fundamentally changed for in traumatic ways.
Speaker 3: And for me, I had three kids, birth three kids,
Speaker 3: and it was so empowering to like grow a human.
Speaker 3: I was like, this is amazing, look at what I'm doing. Also,
Speaker 3: after the postpartum period is such a roller coaster, and
Speaker 3: the hormones and there were I can remember, particularly after
Speaker 3: our first kid, because because it's just it's such a
Speaker 3: life altering moment and you can never really fully prepare
Speaker 3: and having in those early weeks where I felt so
Speaker 3: disconnected from myself and I was really scared. I really
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my gosh, I'm no longer me.
Speaker 3: My body is not for me, it's fully in service
Speaker 3: of this being. I'm exhausted. And that was actually a
Speaker 3: moment in which I turned to intimacy and physical intimacy
Speaker 3: as a way to bring myself back. And so in
Speaker 3: my book, I share a story of sort of the
Speaker 3: first postpartum sex, which which is not sex by sort
Speaker 3: of anyone else's definition and certainly would never be in
Speaker 3: any erotic scene. You know, it was fumbly and it
Speaker 3: was non penetrative, and it was nothing because I was
Speaker 3: still I was still so new, but I needed that
Speaker 3: touch and I needed I needed that intimate connection. And
Speaker 3: you know, there was no orgasm, there was nothing, but
Speaker 3: but that moment just is is in my brain and
Speaker 3: in my memory as a way that I was able
Speaker 3: to return to myself if only briefly in these moments,
Speaker 3: in a moment where I felt like I was, you know,
Speaker 3: floating away. And so I think that's sort of what
Speaker 3: I mean when I say I really realized in that
Speaker 3: moment just how powerful being a sexual being and being
Speaker 3: intimate was and my ability to maintain me.
Speaker 2: And I was single when I had my when when
Speaker 2: I had my son, so and I had a similar
Speaker 2: experience just feeling in service of definitely because I also
Speaker 2: yessed for him over a year. I think, so it
Speaker 2: was it was, oh goodness, I got to a place
Speaker 2: where I was like, I just want my body back.
Speaker 2: I just want to feel in a sexual sexual way.
Speaker 2: But I did have because I was alone. Then I
Speaker 2: had my child, and my child actually provided a lot
Speaker 2: of touch and intimacy and hear the hands and and
Speaker 2: just and the ability to have orgasm through breastfeeding, which
Speaker 2: I did not expect. And I don't know, and I
Speaker 2: say that out loud for any woman out there who's
Speaker 2: like kind of mortified, which is a great that reclaiming
Speaker 2: your your body and your sexuality can take on so
Speaker 2: many faces, especially.
Speaker 3: Yes it can, and I think reminding women that it's
Speaker 3: all normal. I think so many people because we don't
Speaker 3: talk about it. Everybody sort of walks around going, am
Speaker 3: I weird? Am I wrong? Am I messed up? Is
Speaker 3: this weird? And and I just think no, as long
Speaker 3: as you're an adult and you're consenting, then then nothing
Speaker 3: is weird.
Speaker 2: And I also think that sex is messy. Right, you said, oh,
Speaker 2: that thing, it was nothing. I'm like, no, it was everything.
Speaker 2: I think it's real. You get touch again, and you
Speaker 2: get you get touched. But that's that's the fundamental part
Speaker 2: about sex. It's not pretty, it's not performative. It doesn't
Speaker 2: look like a perfect moan and scream. It's drooling, its
Speaker 2: hair coming like everywhere, it's backing as somebody by accident,
Speaker 2: and of what somewhere it shouldn't.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yes, it's it's really And that's where I
Speaker 3: come back to. It's play. And for adults, I think,
Speaker 3: you know, talking about we're talking about kids like parents
Speaker 3: work so hard to curate the play lives of our kids.
Speaker 3: There's play dates, there's all the lessons of all the sports.
Speaker 3: We integrate play in our children's lives in a way
Speaker 3: that says it's fundamental, it's important. And then at some
Speaker 3: point in time we become adults and we just click
Speaker 3: off that play button and decide it's not important. And
Speaker 3: as animals and as humans, play is important across the lifespan,
Speaker 3: but I think for adults, sex is often the only
Speaker 3: one of and sometimes the only way in which adults play.
Speaker 3: So it's really important to just to keep that going
Speaker 3: again because I think it's this really innate.
Speaker 2: Right that we all have absolutely hands down. So when
Speaker 2: you think of women getting back their agency because a
Speaker 2: lot of women don't have their agency, is how to start? Like,
Speaker 2: what's the that micro movement?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's so many. I think some people, you know,
Speaker 3: we talked about masturbation, and some people will start with okay,
Speaker 3: you know, get to know your body, which I think
Speaker 3: is great, but I do think it misses a first
Speaker 3: step or a foundational step of giving yourself permission and
Speaker 3: going back and sort of interrogating your thoughts and your
Speaker 3: feelings and going Have I ever really given myself permission
Speaker 3: to have desire? Have I ever really thought that my
Speaker 3: pleasure was valid and then I should take up space
Speaker 3: for it? And I think many women would answer no
Speaker 3: to that. So first, is this sort of mindset shift
Speaker 3: and value judgment shift to say I'm important, this part
Speaker 3: of me is important. I get to have it. Then
Speaker 3: if we can take ownership of that and reclaim that,
Speaker 3: then we get to go on a path of sort
Speaker 3: of exploring well what does that look like in intangible
Speaker 3: concrete ways. But I think it's that it's that permission,
Speaker 3: it's that mindset.
Speaker 2: Well, there's two things. That it's the permission. And you
Speaker 2: were saying that you came from a religious background. So
Speaker 2: for anyone who has a religious background that has so
Speaker 2: much of the guilt, you're not allowed to have this pleasure.
Speaker 2: You're not allowed to have thoughts outside of even you know,
Speaker 2: somebody walking by or whatever it is, are with thoughts
Speaker 2: about yourself and then bringing in So it's working in
Speaker 2: the permission and getting through all of that construction of
Speaker 2: guilt and so forth. And there's also coming to the
Speaker 2: touch of yourself. I have a lot of friends who've
Speaker 2: never masturbated or rarely have touched themselves, which always blows
Speaker 2: my mind. My I you know, just to not know
Speaker 2: your body intimately.
Speaker 3: But it's so common, right, I mean, it's it's so common,
Speaker 3: particularly for girls and for women. Again, that's that that
Speaker 3: culture of men masturbations normal and they're the conversation with
Speaker 3: boys is I mean, it's it's certainly missing a lot
Speaker 3: of fundamentals, but there's at least this acknowledgment that you'll masturbate.
Speaker 3: But for women there's that's never I mean, parents are
Speaker 3: rarely talking about Okay, let's have safe sets and let's
Speaker 3: have condoms and all that, and what about your own
Speaker 3: pleasure and what about your own agency and get to
Speaker 3: know your own body. I think girls are done a
Speaker 3: real disservice by never having that and having the opposite,
Speaker 3: which is you know this is bad or don't do this.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's really sad. Yeah, and that it
Speaker 2: continues on through adulthood.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and potentially unsafe, right, because then women get into
Speaker 3: this performative loop and potentially get themselves into situations that
Speaker 3: are either emotionally unsafe or physically unsafe because because they
Speaker 3: don't have that ownership of their bodies and what they
Speaker 3: want and so yeah, I think it's it can be
Speaker 3: really detrimental.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So do you address that in your book, Reclaiming
Speaker 2: Your Desire, your Agency, your Power.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's just I think it's like this
Speaker 3: call to empowerment, right, it's this call for women to say, hey,
Speaker 3: this is this is a part of you. Don't relinquish it.
Speaker 3: Don't say oh I'm a mom now, or oh I'm old,
Speaker 3: or what are the whatever other thing you might have
Speaker 3: been told that you're supposed to be. But rather, this
Speaker 3: is a part of you. And it's not selfish, and
Speaker 3: it's not immoral or invalid. It's really this beautiful thing
Speaker 3: and it's a beautiful way to embrace all parts of you.
Speaker 3: And I think it's a real if you have a partner,
Speaker 3: it's this really beautiful way of maintaining this loving intimacy
Speaker 3: over a lifespan, if you want to be committed to
Speaker 3: that person for twenty thirty forty years. It's such a
Speaker 3: beautiful way to add resilience and affection and buffer against
Speaker 3: the stresses that are going to come, you know, keeping
Speaker 3: that that physical intimacy will will only support the emotional intimacy,
Speaker 3: like it keeps you really strong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the spark doesn't actually need to die.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think so, not at all.
Speaker 2: I mean it does the romance. And so that your
Speaker 2: title sex begets sex, I'd love you to talk about
Speaker 2: sex begets Sun. That's a great title.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's sweet. It is really back to that feedback
Speaker 3: loop we were talking about, which is that it is
Speaker 3: the more you have sex, you get better at it.
Speaker 3: It's a little bit of a skill. You learn your partner,
Speaker 3: you learn yourself. You derive more pleasure from it, so
Speaker 3: you want more. Also, that pieces I think really important
Speaker 3: is that if it takes sex in those sexual encounters
Speaker 3: to be in a less fraught, less pressured position. So
Speaker 3: if you're only having sex infrequently, however, everybody defines that differently,
Speaker 3: but if it's infrequent, then each time you have it,
Speaker 3: it feels like it's got to be great, you know,
Speaker 3: and it has to be Everything has to go well,
Speaker 3: and so there's a lot of pressure which keeps you
Speaker 3: in your head and doesn't let you relax. It doesn't
Speaker 3: really let you drop into your body and fully just
Speaker 3: have fun. So that is problematic. So I think there
Speaker 3: is a piece around sex where that frequency, the frequency
Speaker 3: component is a little bit of a lever toward that
Speaker 3: pleasure and keeps that connection going. With couples, that is
Speaker 3: really really a way to keep you, to keep you bonded,
Speaker 3: and so that particularly if you have kids. You know,
Speaker 3: my mom's advice which I love you know, we were
Speaker 3: a couple before we had kids, and we'll be a
Speaker 3: couple after the kids leave the house. And so she was,
Speaker 3: you know, she was a great messenger of thinking of
Speaker 3: reminding myself and my sisters to maintain that connection because
Speaker 3: that will keep you from just being roommates. And you
Speaker 3: want that, and I think most people do. I think
Speaker 3: most people want to keep that.
Speaker 2: And the other question is is if you are there
Speaker 2: and you're thinking of it as a chore, is to
Speaker 2: start asking yourself, why is it a chore?
Speaker 3: Yes? Yes, I think don't go straight to the Okay,
Speaker 3: well I'll just try let's try a real play or
Speaker 3: let's try fine, But why does it feel like a chore?
Speaker 3: Has it always felt like a chore? Try to remember
Speaker 3: a time when it was fun, you know, ask those
Speaker 3: sort of open ended questions of yourself or your partner
Speaker 3: or whomever a therapist. But but go to that reflective
Speaker 3: instead of that fix it quick hack. I don't think
Speaker 3: we're going to hack our way to a more intimate,
Speaker 3: vulnerable sex life without really diving into the nuance.
Speaker 2: Yeah agreed, thank you, Yeah, thank you. And I'm just
Speaker 2: gonna ask you my toen questions.
Speaker 3: Sure, so.
Speaker 2: Let's start with what is one truth your body is
Speaker 2: always known that your mind took years to catch up to.
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, that I deserve play.
Speaker 2: Hmmm, I love it. Thank you. What is the most
Speaker 2: intimate moment you've ever had that had nothing to do
Speaker 2: with sex?
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, that's really hard. The most intimate that didn't
Speaker 3: have to do with sex, you know, I think, certainly
Speaker 3: I'll have to do three. And I think it's like
Speaker 3: the first time I held each one of my children
Speaker 3: after having them in just that moment of touch and
Speaker 3: connection and these little eyes, you know, an inch away
Speaker 3: from your face.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. If you could be remembered for one
Speaker 2: sensation that you gave someone, what would it be?
Speaker 3: I think of compassion. Is that a sensation? That's where
Speaker 3: I go.
Speaker 2: I think that leaves a warm, fuzzy it's.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: If pleasure or where a language, what would your first
Speaker 2: word be?
Speaker 3: It would be that. It would be a moan. It
Speaker 3: would be an m Yes.
Speaker 2: If your erotic life had a title like a novel
Speaker 2: or a film, what would it be?
Speaker 3: Oh? Wow, it would be it only gets better, It only.
Speaker 2: Gets better like that. What is one thing that you've
Speaker 2: never said out loud that you wish someone would ask
Speaker 2: you about.
Speaker 3: Wow, I don't know what if I never said out
Speaker 3: loud that I wish someone would ask me about. It's
Speaker 3: always back to something around what do I want and
Speaker 3: what do I need as a mother and a caretaker
Speaker 3: as opposed to what snack can I make for everybody else?
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think I think there's just this beautiful pause,
Speaker 3: and to be really seen is what I would is
Speaker 3: what I would want to just be really seen?
Speaker 2: Thank you. What is one part of your erotic self
Speaker 2: that you are still afraid to bring to the light.
Speaker 3: I don't know that question right now. I am in
Speaker 3: full discovery mode, so I'm in this space of really
Speaker 3: sort of leaning into what that is and what that
Speaker 3: looks like. And I think maybe I'll be clearer about
Speaker 3: that in a month or two. Is I sort of
Speaker 3: go through this journey. But I'm in this. I'm in
Speaker 3: this like I can see I can see the change happening,
Speaker 3: and it's sort of this fuzzy painting right now, and
Speaker 3: I'm getting closer to it, and I'm sort of watching
Speaker 3: myself go through this process, which is fun. So I
Speaker 3: might look back and have more clarity on that one
Speaker 3: love it.
Speaker 2: Thank you? What dies in you when you pretend and
Speaker 2: what comes alive in you when you don't?
Speaker 3: I mean, what dies when I pretend? Everything? I just like,
Speaker 3: I just I can't relinquish myself. That's what dies and
Speaker 3: what comes alive? Is is is fully is fully becoming
Speaker 3: someone who's who's comfortable in me as me, for no
Speaker 3: purpose other than to just.
Speaker 2: Be thank you. Finish this sentence. When I leave this life,
Speaker 2: I want my body to I want my skin to remember.
Speaker 3: My skin to remember the touch of the four people
Speaker 3: I love the most, my three kids and my husband.
Speaker 3: I want to feel that thank you.
Speaker 2: And if the soul has a scent, what does your
Speaker 2: smell like today?
Speaker 3: It's a lavender today?
Speaker 2: I think, oh nice, very yes, yes, thank you. So
Speaker 2: are there any last pearls of wisdom that you want
Speaker 2: to impart?
Speaker 3: I always just think that I want to impart hope.
Speaker 3: I think many women feel lost or numb, or hopeless
Speaker 3: or helpless, and I think that this is possible for
Speaker 3: anyone to reclaim this agency to feel empowered, and it
Speaker 3: doesn't require a whole life overhaul. I think it can
Speaker 3: be done in little moments and in little snibbits. So
Speaker 3: I just want to leave people with hope that there
Speaker 3: is that there is possibility.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that there's magic, yeah, possible, and being in
Speaker 2: a long term relationship. Yes, absolutely, So thank you for
Speaker 2: joining me today. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3: It's so fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I want love to be able to find you,
Speaker 2: so let them know.
Speaker 3: Yes. So all of my stuff is on the same
Speaker 3: kind of handle. It's desire in real life. So website
Speaker 3: is Desire in real life dot com, Instagram at Desire
Speaker 3: in real life, and then you'll find me writing all
Speaker 3: sorts of articles on substack Desire in real life, and
Speaker 3: all of those sites will link you to the others,
Speaker 3: so you can find me pretty easily.
Speaker 2: Beautiful. Thank you and thank you everyone for joining us today.
Speaker 2: I will see you again next week.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Skin and Soul with Me
Speaker 1: Gwenham Join me Fridays at ten ampst on Transformation Talk Radio.
Speaker 1: Catch the podcast anytime on your favorite platforms. You can
Speaker 1: follow me on Instagram at lubology. Ready to Take the
Speaker 1: Next Step, Book a compatibility call with me at Gwenhemcarsley
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