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Speaker 1: Several very senior US officials recently participated in an event

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called Rededicate two fifty, which was billed as a harmless,

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patriotic celebration, a rededication of our country as one nation

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under God. But if you scratch beneath that glossy veneer,

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what you actually find is a coordinated effort to hijack

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American history and replace it with a false narrative of

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Christian nationalism. So let's clear up exactly what Christian nationalism is,

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because it gets conflated with everyday faith all the time.

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Being a Christian who loves the United States is simple.

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You practice your faith, you appreciate your country, and you

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coexist within a secular legal framework that protects everyone's rights

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to do the same. Christian nationalism is entirely different. It's

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a political ideology, not a religious one. It insists that

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the United States was founded exclusively as a Christian nation,

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that our laws should be derived from the Bible, and

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that Christians should hold a distinct, privileged status in government

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and public life. When high ranking government officials show up

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to an event like Rededicate two point fifty and lend

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the weight of the state to that ideology, They aren't

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just celebrating history, they're actively rewriting it. They are erasing

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the Enlightenment principles of our actual founders, who explicitly wrote

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a secular constitution to ensure that a citizen's religious beliefs

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or lack thereof, would never dictate their standing in society.

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Christian nationalism is a direct threat to the separation of

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church and state, and it is the fastest way to

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turn non Christians, agnostics, atheists into second class citizens. We've

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got the phone lines open and we want to hear

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from you. If you think the US is a Christian nation,

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or if you think Christian nationalism is exactly what this

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country needs, call in and let's talk about it, because

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the show starts now.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome everybody. Today is May thirty first, twenty twenty six,

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and we want to welcome everybody to another episode of

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the Atheist Experience. Can we put this in post? Can

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we put this? Can we have can we have like? Yeah,

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they'll do it, guys, they'll do it. I'm your host Secularity.

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Joining me right now is cross Examiner. What is up, man?

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Speaker 3: Hey? Not much longtime, no c How you doing.

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Speaker 2: Oh I'm good man. It's been been a lot of

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things going on. I was reading these these announcements before

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the show, and it I saw that today as May

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thirty first, and I went, oh, my gosh, really okay, yeah,

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that's uh, that's great to know. That's great news. I

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could have sworn we were still in April, but I

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apparently not. So. Yeah. How about you, man, what how

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you been, What you've been up to? What what you

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watching all this Christian nationally weird stuff going on?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, sure I am.

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Speaker 1: I've been brushing up on my pulp fiction to make

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sure I'm up on the latest scripture, and I've been

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trying to make sure that every war we fight is

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a religiously justified war so that the world recognizes how

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good we are. And then, you know, as long as

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we keep trying to put the Bible on you know,

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elementary school kids across the country, I think we'll be

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landing it just right, hitting home run.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. They have been really fervent here in the

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great state of Tennessee, very let's just say, progressive, very

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open minded bastion in this wonderful country. So open minded,

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of course, that they are requiring the Ten Commandments be

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posted everywhere in our schools and our public schools next

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to the other, the other founding documents from this culture,

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because as we know, the Ten Commandments was one of

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the most important documents of which, by the way, first off,

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let me just I'm being facetious because obviously we're not

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very happy about these things. We're just trying to laugh

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so we don't cry, sad clown kind of thing, you know.

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But I will just I will just point this out

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just because I thought it was really silly in their

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version that they are requiring schools to post there are

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in fact actually eleven commandments because depending on you break

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it up, yeah, and so it is going to be

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a document that you know, while also yeah, the separation

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of church and state thing, massive, massive problem, hugely not

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a fan of that on a personal level here. But

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also we'll be confusing our kids with matt. I just

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want to throw that out there, like that's just that

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makes us look.

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Speaker 1: Bad, guys, absolutely absolutely, and this is not a new problem.

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Years ago, decades ago, Louisiana tried to make the Bible

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the official state book, and everybody that was all in

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on wearing the you know, cross on their pin and

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whatever doing the performative Christianity thing voted for it, but

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it couldn't get out a committee because why nobody could

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agree on which version of the Bible was the true

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and right version, so they couldn't do it. That's the

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same reason you have eleven commandments there, because you've got

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the whole Catholic Protestant division, and it's it's it. If

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it weren't so serious, it's hilarious.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's the that's kind of the frustrating part of it.

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Like the churches have currently, I mean, over the last

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like ten to fifteen years, every major denomination of Christianity

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has had a massive schism in one way or the other.

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Largely it's been around LGBTQ issues and women's issues. You know,

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A couple of them split because they don't want they

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don't want gay pass. A couple of them split because

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they don't want to marrying people that are queer. A

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couple of them split because women aren't allowed to speak. Still,

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like it's happening in real time in front of us,

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and then they're turning right around that are just like

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are just like nah man, one word of God, man

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right here, this is it. We know it. It's truth.

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It's fact, it's settled, no discussion, no confusion on our end,

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and it's just like, man, I can't help but just

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just call bullshit on that. I think we made it

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far enough in I can say bullshits.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I will recommend. I've said it

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before on the show. The single best joke in my

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heart was written by Emo Phillips, and it's about this

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particular issue. I'll just recommend everybody google Emo Phillips religious joke,

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but it's the one you may have heard it where

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the guy's jumping off about to jump off a bridge

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comes up and says, wait, are you Christian down to

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you know? Are you the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes

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Region Council of eighteen seventy nine or twelve?

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Speaker 3: And he picks one and the guy you know says, ah,

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you're heretic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That captures this so well, and again it's hilarious because

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it's ridiculous. But what people don't get is there really

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are churches like that. They really are like Northern Conservative

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Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of seventeen Like screw the

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eighteen twelve guys, We're the seventeenth. You know, like they

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don't get the whole works versus faith, you know whatever.

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Their schism is over right, And what I think the

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what that always leads me to. I think that the

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people miss that don't think deeply about this stuff.

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Speaker 3: Not deeply, but they don't.

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Speaker 1: They don't spend a lot of clock cycles thinking about this.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they're on the fence about religion or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But what this speaks to is, this is supposed to

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be the user manual for the universe, right if you're

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a human. This is supposed to be avoiding eternal damnation

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or annihilation or separation for God or whatever whatever you

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think hell is. And it's supposed to be a guidebook

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to salvation, eternal happiness and all that stuff. And it's

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supposedly written by a very powerful, all knowing God. One

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would think after all of that, one could come up

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with a delivery method that would make his intentions clear.

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But this schis him throughout just Christianity, and not to

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mention all the other religions seems to indicate likewise, And

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I'm not sure how to reconcile those two things.

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Speaker 2: What are your Yeah, it does it makes me feel

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like that is the some would say exact scenario we

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would experience in a existence that does not have this

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type of deity. Yeah. I think that is really really

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reminiscent of the thoughts that I have had when I

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sit down and I you know, I write, I write,

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I write, you know, screenplays in my spare time, and

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I sit down and I think to myself, you know,

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what would a world look like if there wasn't an

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all powerful, all knowing deity that was actively intent on

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torturing us for eternity, if we don't bend our knee

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and praise him, And it turns out a lot like this.

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You know, it turns out it's really really similar. You

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still have almost yeah, it's almost identical.

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Speaker 1: You have very you have kids dying of councer, you

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have ten thousand children starving to death every day, which

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is true, look it up.

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Speaker 3: Correct.

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Speaker 1: And you have amputees who pray, who are true, true

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Christians trademark, and uh, we've never seen an amputee get

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cured by prayer, but we've seen all sorts of uh,

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you know, cancer that can go through voluntary normal remission

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get cured.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it seems weird. It's weird.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure really yeah,

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I could go ahead flip of a coin. I am

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hoping that there will be some wonderful, wonderful people out

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there that will explain it to us. Because folks, we

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are try streaming tonight. That's t r I, not t

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R Y, although we you know, we do try streaming

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every so often, but we are try streaming out to

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all you wonderful people. So we're gonna give a big,

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big shout out to everybody hanging out with us on

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both the tiktoks and the YouTube's mobiles. And if you

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are watching us on TikTok tonight and you would like

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to come up and talk to us, just request to join.

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We will bring you up on stage. Only thing, we

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just got to make sure you're eighteen years of age

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before doing so, so we will do that. But I

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am legally obligated because Ce is here and he always

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makes sure we're dotting our eyes and crossing our t's,

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I am legally obligated to tell you that The Atheist

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Experience as a product of the Atheist Community of Austin,

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a FIVEBLE one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the

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propultion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation

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of religion and government and what that means in part

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for you wonderful folks out there that want to help

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keep this awesome, awesome community going. You can give us

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as many as many tax free donations as you would

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like all throughout this wonderful year and following and know

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that they will be going to a great cause and

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some wonderful people having some good times. I actually saw

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something not too super long ago that was going on

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down at the ACA build and they were doing some

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really cool things. Genetically modified Skeptic and the Antibot were

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down there hanging out, have a good time chatting it

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up with people making a difference in the world. It

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was really cool. So yeah, if you're in the Austin area,

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go go hit them up and check out a book,

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rent a book. It is a library, it is Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I went there for the back cruise last year. For

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time I've ever been there. Is really pressed and I

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want to make sure I understood you. There's no limit

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as to the number of donations.

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Speaker 3: Somebody.

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Speaker 2: That is not a legal statement. I just want to

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put that has no idea.

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Speaker 1: I want to clarify for our users, because I think

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our users may be confused.

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Speaker 3: They can give us more money and nothing less.

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Speaker 2: They can, In fact, you can start just just piling

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the heaps of cash at their doorstep. I think you can.

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You can send it to a PO box that they

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might have.

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Speaker 1: I don't do that.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: It's getting now, I'm already getting. I'm already getting messages

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from the crew. They're very upset already or just a

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few minutes.

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Speaker 3: And to clarify, we don't make a dime right.

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Speaker 2: That.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't eat sweet super chat money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, no, no, the the a C would be

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working much better in my in this in this facility

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at the moment. But yeah, we are volunteers. This is

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all volunteer run and lead. There's so many wonderful people

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that do help make this happen. But I am not

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gonna talk about those great people just yet, because I

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see we've got some calls and I think we're gonna

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have some good talks already, So let's jump right into it.

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We are going to go to Minnesota. We're going to

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talk with Kelly. She her pronouns as a fist and

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just wants to talk about God. So I mean that

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is that is kind of what we're here for. Kelly,

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What uh, what are you interested in talking about when

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it comes to God?

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Speaker 5: I was kind of open to any subjectives that you

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were interested in talking about.

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Speaker 3: Cool.

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Speaker 2: That's great, that's a great thank you.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a fantastic start. I mean, we love, we

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love for callers to have their favorite topic or whatever.

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But I love that as a starting place too, Kelly,

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because you know, a lot of times when I have

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these conversations, it's a It's been said a billion times

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by a billion people. I wasn't the first one to

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say it. But you know what, well, God are you

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talking about? Give me? Give me just a general description.

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I don't need every single detail, but like, is it

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something you picked up from some Hinduist stuff? Is it

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something you picked up from some Christian stuff? Is it

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kind of your own thing? What's a what's a general

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boundary line for this God we're talking about?

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Speaker 5: I suppose I'm I consider myself Christian, but a lot

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of Christians would probably label me a heretic.

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Speaker 3: That's not uncommon.

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Speaker 1: You were just talking about that in the in the

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in the in the banter.

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Speaker 3: Yeh, yes, yeah, go ahead.

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Speaker 5: Sorry, Oh that's okay. So basically I believe in Jesus,

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but he provided a summary of the Torah, which was

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due unto others, as you'd have him do unto you.

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So I when I look at the Bible, I consider

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its errants because it likely passed through the hands of

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Romans and Babylonians and other slave owners that had a

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tendency of altering religions to fit their corruptions. Yeah, so

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everything that matches that summary I am compatible with. So

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by if I passed through some areas of the Bible

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where it's like, what's the like, was that I like,

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slavery is permission?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, that whole that whole portion, that whole murdering

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of a bunch of people kind of willy nilly and stuff. Yeah, yeah,

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we can. I think I think Ce and I are

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are happy to kind of throw that stuff aside. You know,

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we could, we could ask you questions and kind of

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poke at you, Kelly and be like, you know, well

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why do you pick and choose and blah blah blah.

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But I'm not really even worried about that. The the

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kind of part that I want to go to about, like,

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you know, some of jesus teachings and the summary, you know,

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kind of the Torah kind of get in some gist

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of it and whatnot. Do you do you view this

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in your life as more of like like something that

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just kind of guides you and your behavior. Do you

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do you think like there was this guy, a physical

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person named Jesus, and like he was buried in this tomb,

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he rose like they were like about a dozen people

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hanging out with him telling his stories. Like do you

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come at it from that perspective? Or is this more

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just like, hey, these are kind of general principles that

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make me feel good and help me try to be

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a good person.

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Speaker 5: Well, I do believe the actual Jesus person existed. I

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do believe he's one with the God of the universe.

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Speaker 7: And what.

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Speaker 3: Good question?

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Speaker 1: What does that mean? That Jesus is one with the

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God of the universe? I just, I honestly don't understand

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what that means.

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Speaker 5: What it means, Well, what does it mean that they're one?

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Speaker 7: Oh?

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Speaker 5: Well, it could mean that a great closeness or it

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could mean that they're the same person.

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Speaker 1: Where well, let me let me let yeah, let me

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rephrase it. What do you mean when you said you

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believe they are one. So do you mean, well, Jesus,

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the human that allegedly walked around on earth was a

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god that had godly powers or do you mean like

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he was aware of God at a very intimate level

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or where do you come in?

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Speaker 5: I suppose I am at that they're equal, that's that

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they're the same somehow.

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Speaker 3: And why do you believe that?

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Speaker 7: Well?

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Speaker 5: I had nd SO and it involved Jesus, and it

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was very intense, and I can't deny it. I think

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everybody is going to have a near death experience, you know,

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when it's the time, and I think they're all going

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to meet him.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that if I'm if I'm hearing, you're right,

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you're saying that you know, before or this NDE, you

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would probably be somebody like you know myself or or

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cross here, and you would say you didn't believe in

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Jesus as as the son of God, as one with

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the God of the universe. You didn't believe, you know,

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the New Testament was like literal history or anything, and

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then you had this experience and then you started believing

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in that? Is that? Is that what I'm understanding the story?

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Speaker 5: Well, I was kind of in a Really, I was

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still a Christian at the time, but I was in

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a place I was reading Martin Luther King Junior's Excues

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at that time in my life. I was I was

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reading the book I'm Not Getting Midnights, and that's when

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it all happened. So I was still a believer, but

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I had a lot of questions, and I think I

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made most of the Christians around me like kind of

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like they just didn't feel comfortable with my questions or something.

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Speaker 2: Sure, sure, let me let me jump in again real quick,

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and then I want to give it over to Cross

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for a little bit and I'll shut the heck up.

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Do you think your story right would be more or

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less impressive if you didn't believe in Jesus as one

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with God before that experience, before that NDE Kelly, if

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you absolutely did not believe, not that you hated him,

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not that you thought he was a bad person and

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there was some weird things in the Bible or anything,

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but that you genuinely, just like you don't believe Mohammed

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was the prophet from Allah. You genuinely did not believe.

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Then you had the NDE. Then you started wholly believing

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do you think that story would be more or less

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impressive to yourself and others?

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Speaker 5: I would, I guess for me, I would think of

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it as equal, because here's an ex experience that I

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can't repeat for you scientifically. I can't show you what

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I saw. I can't put you through what I went

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through at this time.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I think a lot of atheist I.

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Speaker 3: Think.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, sorry to cut you off. I do. I

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do want to throw it over to Cross. I I

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think it would be more impressive if you didn't believe

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before having the experience, Like I've never believed in the

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god Shiva. I've never really studied the the that that

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particular deity if all of a sudden, out of nowhere,

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I had some intense personal experience that led me to

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being one hundred percent convinced in the existence of Shiva.

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I think that's more impressive than me becoming a Methodist

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again because I was raised with Methodism. But that's just

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my that's just my view on it. But let me

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let me, let's let's get Cross in on here. I

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know he's got I know he's got some good questions.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so yeah, I really appreciate you sharing your

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story with us, Kelly, I think what I'd like to

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point out because I think, like a lot of people

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that you know, have watched the show, I was a

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fan of this show for many, many, many years before

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I started coming on. The question that always I found

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most interesting was not the what do you believe? But

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the why do you believe it?

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Speaker 3: Question?

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Speaker 1: And that's why I asked. What I did is like,

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why are you convinced about this? And the answer you

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gave to why I believe was I had this NDE.

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And then we said okay, so you didn't believe before

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the NDE and you said, well, no, I was still

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a Christian, which in my book means you believe that

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Jesus was a divine being of some sort, maybe slightly different.

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So when I asked you why you believe, you said NDE.

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And then we say, okay, we learned a little later on,

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well you believe beforehand. So is it just that this

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NDA made you more convinced, more certain? Is that how

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we should take that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I already believe. I guess there was a scripture

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that always stood out to me that I really like

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clung onto that drew me to Christianity. And that was

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greater love, and no one than this untilate your lifetime

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for your friends.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there there's I mean, my gift is my

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song and this one's for you. This quote Elton John

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like I'm being a little I'm having a little fun here,

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like anybody can write some pretty words. But that's that's

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not I'm assuming that one sentence is not Why you

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were convinced that Jesus Christ was a man and that

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he was the son of God and that he performed miracles?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 4: Why?

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Speaker 5: I guess I was just encouraged a lot to have

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faith even though I couldn't see. I actually didn't expect

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to ever see Jesus before I was actually dead. I

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did not believe that you could. I didn't think that

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was possible. I thought that.

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Speaker 3: I didn't either let me ask you something.

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Speaker 1: Then, so you're your logic seems to be I suspected

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or strongly suspected that there was a person that is Jesus,

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and that person is equated somehow with God performing miracles,

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creating the nurse, whatever part you want, that's sort of

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a mystical part. But then I had this nd experience,

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and that is what really convinced me. I want to

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make sure I understand that that's your position before I

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ask you any more questions.

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Speaker 3: Is that is that sort of Do I have I

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summarized you fairly?

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Speaker 5: I think so, because Yeah, I was drawn by some

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of the verses in the Bible. I chose to believe

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without a lot of evidence initially.

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Speaker 3: Did you?

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Speaker 1: I want to stop right there, because that's an interesting sentence.

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I don't often hear people saying I chose to believe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a very.

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Speaker 2: Especially especially with adding on Kelly, and I'm not I'm

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not like making fun of you, for sure, but especially

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with adding on, like, with not a lot of evidence.

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So that's that's really I I think that's that's really

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awesome that you said that. So, yeah, please please answer

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what Cross said.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, So my question about that is, normally people

441
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become convinced, right, it's not something you choose to do.

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You gather evidence, you know, seculararity here tells me that

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he ate a tuna fish sandwich for lunch. I've previously

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experienced tuna fish sandwiches.

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Speaker 3: I know that people eat them. I know that there's

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this thing called lunch.

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Speaker 1: I've got a bunch of evidence, and I and I

448
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become convinced because I know secularity and he has a

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history with me of being honest. This summary of my

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experience convinces me that it's true. Is that not what happened?

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In your case? You actively like didn't believe, and you

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just said I'm choosing to believe.

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Speaker 3: Is that what happened? Or did you become convinced? Well?

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Speaker 5: Like when I speak with atheists about my faith, like

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I at the time before my experience, I would say.

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Speaker 4: That I didn't have evidence for them.

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Speaker 3: I didn't.

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Speaker 5: I didn't have evidence. I just really connected with the

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ethics that I could find in the Bible. I couldn't

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find all the ethics everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But so your logic then was I find good

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ethics here, therefore I will accept the supernatural cranes that

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come along with it. Again, I'm not attacking your position.

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I'm just I'm just trying to come to an understanding

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before I actually ask my questions. So I like the ethics,

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I like the sentiments love thy neighbor, and those things

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you've quoted. Therefore I became convinced of the supernatural. Whether

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or not that was good logic or not, but that

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was that was the route you took.

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Speaker 3: Am I understanding you correctly?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 5: And I also encounter the teleological arguments and entropy, sure.

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Speaker 1: And those were more even more, you know, moved you

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further on the line towards from doubt or uncertainty to certainty.

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And then you had this NDE experience, and that pushed

476
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you pretty far along that path towards even greater certainty.

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Speaker 3: So this is my question.

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Speaker 1: Then, do you do you think that anyone who experiences

479
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:18,319
anything during an NDA ND is reasonable for accepting what

480
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,359
they experience as being true. For example, I have an

481
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,680
ND and I experience something that tells me that dinosaurs

482
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,880
are roaming the earth today and making tuna fish sandwiches.

483
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:37,279
For secular rarity, If I experience that, should I accept

484
00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:38,119
that as true?

485
00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:40,599
Speaker 3: Like, I'm convinced maybe.

486
00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 5: A possibility, but as an outsider, I can see why

487
00:26:44,319 --> 00:26:48,240
it would be rejected or just thought of as a possibility.

488
00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 3: Let's make it something reasonable. I have an ND.

489
00:26:52,519 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: IT and I experience that the lottery ticket numbers will

490
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,319
be for the daily triple will be seven eight nine.

491
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,079
I go run seven eight nine and I hit the lottery.

492
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,359
Should I believe that I saw the future?

493
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:06,079
Speaker 2: Oh?

494
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 5: Like if you actually had results in one.

495
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that if I had an NDE and I visioned

496
00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:15,559
myself picking the triple pick seven eight nine, I go

497
00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:19,000
and play those numbers and I won. Does that mean

498
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,480
that I saw the future, that I had some sort

499
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,359
of mystical otherworldly experience.

500
00:27:23,799 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 5: Well it would be a possibility still. But you could

501
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,400
have just made up the story after the fact and.

502
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 4: Said I had a dream of these numbers.

503
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,559
Speaker 1: Why I'm giving you the credit of the truth, the

504
00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:34,720
benefit of the doubt. I'm a believing that you saw

505
00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:37,839
and talked with or however experience a very strong connection

506
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:38,400
with Jesus.

507
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 3: But let me get to the point.

508
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,599
Speaker 1: The point is when you're having an NDE, by definition,

509
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,039
your brain is under like a tremendous amount of stress,

510
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,680
usually involving oxygen deprivation, and you can have all sorts

511
00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:53,759
of weird experiences when you're having an NDE, when you're

512
00:27:53,799 --> 00:27:56,640
on drugs, when you've had physical trauma to your brain,

513
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,559
there's all sorts of things. When I know that brain

514
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:04,880
is under stress of that level, I become less convinced

515
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,200
of the accuracy of what that brain is experiencing that

516
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,720
rather than more convinced. So my question to you ultimately,

517
00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:15,039
is shouldn't the fact that it was an ND make

518
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,720
you skeptical of its accuracy and not more convinced.

519
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 5: Well, it's merciful that it was ND, because if I

520
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,920
had just said a vision and I talk to people

521
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,839
about it, then they would, you know, lock you up.

522
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,279
Speaker 2: Why do you think why do you think that is? Like,

523
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,079
I know you're being I know you're being a little

524
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,160
a little silly there with that, Kelly, And I appreciate that.

525
00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:40,920
I appreciate, you know, good humor and stuff. I know,

526
00:28:41,079 --> 00:28:43,440
Cross does it as well. You know, these are really

527
00:28:43,599 --> 00:28:46,640
they're they're really difficult, you know, and dense subjects sometimes

528
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,640
and it's it's nice to be able to just be

529
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,400
a little playful with them. You know. Why why do

530
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,640
you think that that is the case? You know, like,

531
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,920
why why do you think that it's just kind of

532
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,000
something that's so commonplace to you that like, hey, if

533
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,799
I told everybody I was just walking outside and just

534
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,359
had this vision, they'd think, Wow, that's that's crazy. Why

535
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:10,200
do you think that is?

536
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 5: Why do you think that's the case? Why people why

537
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,960
maybe you're concerned that you're seeing something that they didn't see,

538
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,960
and you know, they would be concerned, they would be

539
00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:23,000
doing it out of concerns.

540
00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me let me let me offer a little

541
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,440
bit more on that. It concerned because, like you said,

542
00:29:29,759 --> 00:29:32,799
they're not seeing the thing that we're seeing, and we

543
00:29:32,799 --> 00:29:37,319
we have really good solid proof to indicate that like

544
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,440
that can happen to us as people like it is

545
00:29:40,559 --> 00:29:44,960
possible that that Ceas is just seeing this dinosaur in

546
00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:48,079
my kitchen making this tuna sandwich, but in fact it's

547
00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:51,400
it's me, you know, or or nobody's standing there like

548
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,359
that that happens, right.

549
00:29:53,799 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 5: Well, the thing is too and that sometimes we have

550
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,079
a personal experience that is true, but there's no way

551
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,240
to you know, share it with others so that they

552
00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:08,599
believe you that it happened to you. Like I was assaulted, Yeah,

553
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,720
and I was unable to prove it, but I know

554
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,279
I know that it happened the person who assaulted me

555
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,000
unless they have memory issues, they know what happened, right,

556
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:18,799
They're not going.

557
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: To but it is fairness again, in fairness, back to

558
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,039
what Cross was talking about with the dinosaur, the sandwich

559
00:30:25,039 --> 00:30:28,920
making dinosaurs, Like, we do know that tuna sandwiches exist.

560
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,240
We absolutely know in this country that overwhelmingly you know,

561
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,319
these crimes are not taken, you know, seriously, there's a

562
00:30:36,359 --> 00:30:40,279
backlog of how many dozens of cases at precincts and stuff,

563
00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:42,599
you know, and and just throwing this out there, the

564
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,480
current administration is not is it's like defunding all these things.

565
00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:48,240
That's a side point that has nothing to do with

566
00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:50,920
this organization or my thoughts or anything. The point is,

567
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,079
we have really good reason to accept that all these

568
00:30:55,119 --> 00:31:00,680
other things exist except for a couple of these key points. Right,

569
00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:05,079
we don't have anything to prove the existence ever of

570
00:31:05,559 --> 00:31:09,000
sandwich making dinosaurs, and we don't seem to have proof

571
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,599
of like anybody ever resurrecting and coming to people in

572
00:31:13,599 --> 00:31:16,960
in visions or NDEs, Right, Like, isn't that the isn't

573
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,319
that the thing that's dissimilar about these different stories?

574
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: In fact, we have the opposite. Have you ever heard

575
00:31:23,759 --> 00:31:25,480
of a book called Heaven Is for Real?

576
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:26,279
Speaker 5: Yes?

577
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:28,839
Speaker 3: So it's about a boy who.

578
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: Was four years old who had an NDE, went to Heaven,

579
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,599
met Jesus and came back and talked about it, had

580
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,240
knowledge that he couldn't have possibly known. Bestseller made into

581
00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:43,119
a movie starring Greg kinnear best, you know, made a

582
00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:47,400
bunch of money. Boy grows up and then reveals never happened,

583
00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:48,400
the whole thing.

584
00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: The whole thing.

585
00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 5: I thought he didn't. He just say parts of it

586
00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:52,640
weren't true or something.

587
00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:54,079
Speaker 3: I think you missed my point.

588
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the core, the core thing is this didn't happen.

589
00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 3: So we have evidence of people.

590
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,599
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying you're claiming this, Okay, I want

591
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,759
to make that clear, but we have What my point

592
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,359
was is, not only do we not have evidence of

593
00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:12,319
you know, why doesn't God heal amputees? Why doesn't God

594
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,839
resurrect people once we have cameras?

595
00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:17,279
Speaker 3: We have the opposite.

596
00:32:17,359 --> 00:32:21,319
Speaker 1: We have tons of cases of people claiming NDEs and

597
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,599
being debunked later, either through self recantation or through experts

598
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,200
coming in and debunking stories. So it doesn't seem to

599
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,240
be a good reason to believe somebody else's story. And

600
00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:36,759
then when you examine what's happening during an NDE, which

601
00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:39,480
is your brain's losing oxygen or it's got some drug

602
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:43,880
issues or whatever, it means your brain is unreliable. And

603
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,200
I told the story on the show before I am

604
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,240
a cancer survivor. I went through I was stage four,

605
00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:54,039
I went through a massive surgery fifteen hours in the

606
00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:58,480
intense what you call it, ice you for two or.

607
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,319
Speaker 3: Three days, during which which.

608
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,759
Speaker 1: The nurse was trying to steal the property that was

609
00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:07,240
stored under my bed and was giving me bad looks

610
00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:11,160
and trying not to feed me. I eventually was able

611
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,519
to sort of tell my wife about this enough, in fact,

612
00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:17,000
I think it was my wife of my dear friend,

613
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:18,160
and she went over.

614
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 3: She was a doctor, and she went over and.

615
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: Spoke to the attending physician who came in and said,

616
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,359
we put you on a new pain med because your

617
00:33:25,359 --> 00:33:27,319
heart rate was too high. We did that about a

618
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,599
day and a half ago. We're taking you off because

619
00:33:29,599 --> 00:33:33,519
you're having hallucinations. Within an hour of them changing my meds,

620
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,759
I realized that nurse was the nicest person in the world,

621
00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:40,480
and I had been having these weird delusions. But I

622
00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:44,440
would have sworn under oath at risk of going to

623
00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:48,039
jail for violating that oath, that she had been mean,

624
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,599
was trying to steal my stuff, wasn't feeding me, etc.

625
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,920
I was absolutely convinced. And the problem was there was

626
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,920
a few milligrams of a certain foreign substance in my blood,

627
00:33:59,119 --> 00:34:01,519
and it made my brain do wanky things. Now take

628
00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:03,759
that and compare it to what happens when you're doing

629
00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:08,039
an NDE. Doesn't that make your brain an unreliable filter

630
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:09,360
of reality at that moment?

631
00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 5: Well, I still consider it real and I know that,

632
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:19,840
like I just think when you cross that bridge and

633
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,599
the participant observation of death, that you're going to see

634
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:24,920
the same thing then that.

635
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 3: I did, is there? Why do you believe that? Sorry? Yes, sorry?

636
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,079
But why question?

637
00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 6: Why?

638
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 1: Given everything we just said, why do you still believe

639
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,239
that what you experienced real? What? What other than your

640
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,039
brain telling you what it saw during the NDE? What

641
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,320
other thing is convincing you? If not, it may and

642
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,280
just maybe that it was so strong, it was so real.

643
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,480
I can't think anything other than it was real. What

644
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:50,119
Why do you believe that it's real?

645
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,159
Speaker 3: Knowing what you know about NDEs, well, even what you told.

646
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 5: Me about hallucinating with your situation, I still think that

647
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,519
as a possibility there was uh cruel nurse I.

648
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,199
Speaker 7: Didn't well, possibility.

649
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,039
Speaker 1: Then I have to say, and I don't mean this

650
00:35:08,119 --> 00:35:11,440
in the traditionally very negative way, but you know the

651
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,159
word gullible is just an observation that means you believe

652
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,239
you were willingly believing things with insufficient evidence. Right, I

653
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,079
am the person who observed and experienced that. I'm telling

654
00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:23,519
you that I not only did I come off those

655
00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:26,679
drugs and realize I was wrong, but I told you

656
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,840
that I was, you know, high on this pain med

657
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,960
which is known to induce hallucinations at the time. Now

658
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,559
and you know, and and you're still willing to believe

659
00:35:35,559 --> 00:35:39,280
that it was true. It sounds like that old uh show,

660
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:42,320
Uh what was it?

661
00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 4: Uh?

662
00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: The X Files where Moulder would always say his poster said,

663
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,119
I want to believe. It sounds to me like you

664
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,000
want to believe. It's not that you're waiting to become

665
00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:54,679
convinced by evidence. Sorry, sorry, I know you had a

666
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:55,199
comment to.

667
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 2: No, no, No, that was that was great. That was great.

668
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,880
And honestly, Kelly, like we really really appreciate you just

669
00:36:02,039 --> 00:36:03,960
just being real with us. There's a lot of times

670
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,760
when people call in and they want to they want

671
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,159
to you know, obfus gate on purpose and stuff, and

672
00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:11,360
it doesn't feel like that's where you're coming from. It

673
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,880
feels like you're just being you know, super genuine with

674
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,360
us and just kind of let letting the conversation go,

675
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,000
which is which is what myself and Cross really want,

676
00:36:19,079 --> 00:36:21,960
you know, we want to understand where you're coming from,

677
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,320
and we don't want to misrepresent you or anything, and

678
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,079
we don't we don't want to be mean or talk

679
00:36:26,199 --> 00:36:30,320
down to you, you know it. It does seem to

680
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,679
me like there's a little bit of a problem with

681
00:36:34,679 --> 00:36:38,199
with the types of things that you accept as as

682
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,599
being true or or reasons to accept these things is true.

683
00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:45,840
Because one thing that I've noticed is that when we've

684
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,760
talked about these different scenarios that that are similar in

685
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,719
a good, you know, in very important ways about the

686
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:58,159
hallucinations you know, uh, visions, indease, these types of things

687
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,800
people coming to those conclusions and having those experience, You've

688
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,280
you've repeatedly said that it's a possibility that it could

689
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,440
be true, but with your experience, it is true. And

690
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,079
I guess I'm wondering what was it about? What is

691
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:18,840
it about these different scenarios that make your situation totally

692
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,119
absolutely true or at least like to the point that

693
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,880
you know, you accept it, you know, versus these other scenarios,

694
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,559
like you know, again, Cross was telling you about this

695
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,119
NDE had where dinosaurs are making sandwiches for me why

696
00:37:33,199 --> 00:37:37,280
is that only a possibility that that's true, but your

697
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,599
your experience, like is for sure true?

698
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 7: Well, I.

699
00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 5: Went through it firsthand. I actually participated in the experience myself.

700
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,480
It's kind of like that assault that you can't prove.

701
00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:57,880
But when when you're you're familiar with participant observation.

702
00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 2: Correct a little bit. I'm not an expert in anything.

703
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,079
Speaker 5: But it's in cultural anthropology, and the thing is like,

704
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,360
it's a part of science where you can experience something firsthand.

705
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,559
I'm not trying to rush you do not, You've got

706
00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:17,079
to wait your turn. But when you get there.

707
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,039
Speaker 4: To that point where you're dying.

708
00:38:19,639 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 2: Like.

709
00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:24,679
Speaker 5: It's that bridge is just different when you're on it

710
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,199
versus being told about being.

711
00:38:27,079 --> 00:38:28,199
Speaker 4: Someone doing that bridge.

712
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: Do you think do you think that, for instance, I'm

713
00:38:32,559 --> 00:38:35,039
very lucky to know a bunch of different people coming

714
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,039
from a lot of different religious backgrounds. Do you feel

715
00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:43,599
that the weight of the Muslim uh telling me that, well,

716
00:38:43,679 --> 00:38:48,400
when I get close to reaching Mohammed and the Great Allah,

717
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,400
you know, then I'll experience it and that'll really change

718
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,480
my mind. Do you feel like that is on the

719
00:38:54,519 --> 00:38:57,960
same level as what you're saying or or less than

720
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,880
Is it more impactful. Is it more? Are they more correct?

721
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,639
So this guy, this guy, a guy I know asif,

722
00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:09,480
had a vision. He had a He had an NDE

723
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,440
very similar to yours. This was like a dozen years ago.

724
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,679
It told him that he would travel to this far

725
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,320
off land. He didn't understand at the time, but it

726
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,400
it seemed to have a bunch of squiggly letters and

727
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,679
it started with a big capital T. I don't know

728
00:39:22,679 --> 00:39:25,440
if you're familiar with the spelling of Tennessee, but that

729
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,119
that's pretty pretty on the nose there. And he he

730
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:34,960
had this vision that he was going to be around gladiators,

731
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,719
you know, these these huge, huge individual giants, you know.

732
00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:41,159
But they were covered in you know, head to toe

733
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,280
in this armor, you know. But the armor was bright,

734
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,679
bright blue, and they were they were fighting all around

735
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,639
and they were having this intense battle. And it was

736
00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:55,039
in that moment that he would experience Mohammed. And he

737
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,679
came to the Great State of Tennessee and he got

738
00:39:58,679 --> 00:40:01,800
invited out one night to a Tennessee Titans football game.

739
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,639
And as he is standing there watching these gladiators battle,

740
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,480
he has this vision of Mohammed telling him that he's

741
00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:12,840
on the right path and that he just needs to continue,

742
00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:17,239
you know, obeying all those rules. Is his experience on

743
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,119
par with your experience? And is he right when he

744
00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:23,800
tells me, I'll get to that bridge and I'll see that,

745
00:40:24,159 --> 00:40:24,960
or are you right?

746
00:40:25,559 --> 00:40:29,159
Speaker 5: Well? I have looked at the Quran a little bit

747
00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:32,800
in my life, but I've spent more time with the Bible. Sure,

748
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,079
But what I've found disturbing about the Quran is, well,

749
00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:40,639
in the Muslim faith, I can think it's in the

750
00:40:40,679 --> 00:40:45,679
hadiths lisay that Ayisha was six years old.

751
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,679
Speaker 2: Those are corrupt passages, Those are those are those are

752
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,639
passages that were written you know, by interpretation, you know,

753
00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:57,719
written down from different scribes and stuff. You know, just

754
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,519
like the just like the slavery and the Old test An. Right,

755
00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:03,039
we agreed on that. We just throw that part out.

756
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,119
We just put that part to the side. We don't

757
00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:07,760
need it anymore, and we just talk about the the

758
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,400
for instance, in in the Quran it says, I forget

759
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,639
the I forget the suru right now, but it says

760
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,079
that taking the life of a single innocent person is

761
00:41:17,119 --> 00:41:20,039
like killing the whole world. We just all we do, Kelly,

762
00:41:20,199 --> 00:41:23,000
is we take that bit right there, We talk about

763
00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:27,079
the ethics of it. You know, I mean, asief sounds

764
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,760
right to me. He sounds like, I mean, it sounds

765
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,960
like you. And here at least on par right.

766
00:41:32,559 --> 00:41:36,119
Speaker 5: Well, the other issue I take with.

767
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,519
Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, hold on, I'm going to play

768
00:41:39,519 --> 00:41:43,320
referee here for just a second. You're you're about to

769
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,920
do what is called what about ism? And I'm going

770
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,119
to really encourage you not to do that. This is

771
00:41:48,159 --> 00:41:51,199
your brain trying to avoid the question that's sr just

772
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,119
asked you. He asked you whether or not his arguments

773
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,360
which are identical to yours, but come to a different conclusion,

774
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,400
i e. The Muslims have it right, not the Christians.

775
00:42:03,199 --> 00:42:07,480
He's asking you. I'm the third party. I'm looking at

776
00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:10,679
you saying you experienced this, and I'm looking at a

777
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,760
see if and he's saying he experienced this, and you

778
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,320
came to different conclusions. How do we know which is right?

779
00:42:17,519 --> 00:42:20,280
That's really what he's asking, Right, Like, we could say,

780
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,840
well you're right, he's right, or it's not reliable information,

781
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,519
so nobody should make any conclusions based on this. And

782
00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:30,559
what you said was, well, here's a problem I have

783
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:31,559
with Islam.

784
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,559
Speaker 3: Do you see how that's not responsive to his question?

785
00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:39,639
Speaker 5: Well, I guess I don't fully understand because I'm one.

786
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:41,599
Speaker 1: Let me break it down for you. This is a

787
00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:45,079
simpler version. I've had callers where I say, how do

788
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:47,760
you know that the Bible is true and not the.

789
00:42:49,639 --> 00:42:50,079
Speaker 3: Quran?

790
00:42:50,679 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 1: And they say, after some conversation, they'll say something along

791
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:58,079
the lines of faith, my faith tells me that this

792
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,880
is true. And I've had calls with people who say

793
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,239
the same thing about the Koran. I believe that the

794
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,719
Koran is true and not the Bible because of my faith,

795
00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:11,440
And so that comes to this question of Okay, they

796
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,119
can't both be true true because they contain contradictions between

797
00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:19,199
each other. To be saved, you have to accept Jesus

798
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,639
Christ as the final prophet and the only God. To

799
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,559
become saved, you have to believe in Allah, and there

800
00:43:26,599 --> 00:43:28,360
were prophets after Jesus.

801
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 3: Those both cannot be true.

802
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 1: But I have people calling me and telling me things

803
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,840
like my faith tells me it's true, and that's why

804
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,159
I believe. So Sr's question boils down to how do

805
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,039
we tell who's right if everybody's telling us they're using

806
00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:47,400
the same method. I had an end, I had a vision,

807
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,000
I had faith, and it led me to believe X,

808
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,920
and then somebody else says the same thing led me

809
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,119
to believe not X. Can you reconcile those two things

810
00:43:57,159 --> 00:44:00,280
for us? That's the question, without going to why don't

811
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,840
like Islam? Because if you're just picking what you like,

812
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:04,559
then you should have just led with that and left

813
00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:09,119
out the NDE. So why how can we reconcile you

814
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,280
and de sief telling us essentially the same methodology, coming

815
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:14,599
to the different conclusions.

816
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 5: So in his vision, you said he was fighting some giants.

817
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: Let's imagine we're simplifying it and we're not worried about

818
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,880
the details. We have somebody who says, my faith tells

819
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,239
me the Bible is true, and another person tells me

820
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,559
my faith tells me the Koran is true. How do

821
00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:35,840
we somebody who didn't experience that faith? How do we

822
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,599
tell the difference between those two? Who's right?

823
00:44:39,119 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 5: I don't trust I for an eyemantality?

824
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: Why don't so?

825
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:44,119
Speaker 3: Let me let's let's pull that thread.

826
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're using your own morality to judge which

827
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,000
book of morals to believe in?

828
00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 3: Is that correct?

829
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 5: The morality existed long before I was born.

830
00:44:58,159 --> 00:45:00,639
Speaker 1: I can't you have a judgment that says I for

831
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,679
ie is wrong, and we can ignore what the Bible

832
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:03,800
says about that in the Koran.

833
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 3: All that, but you have this morality. I don't believe

834
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:06,960
in eye for eye.

835
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 1: And if I understand your logic, your logic is the

836
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,639
Bible or the Koran could be true. I read the Koran.

837
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,000
It says eye for I. I personally don't agree with that.

838
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,360
Therefore the Bible is true. Am I understanding you correctly?

839
00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:22,559
Speaker 4: Well?

840
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,679
Speaker 5: I feel that this moral of doing away with eye

841
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,760
for an eye, Yeah, has been around longer than you all.

842
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 3: No, No, I agree with sure. I'm just saying you

843
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:34,639
invented it.

844
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 1: I'm just saying you have a yard stick you're using

845
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,639
right to measure how good a book is. And you've

846
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,400
used this yard stick and you've put the Quran up

847
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,039
against it, and you're like, this is ten units of good.

848
00:45:48,639 --> 00:45:50,880
And you've put that yard stick up against the Bible.

849
00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:53,079
And let's give you a like all the toys to

850
00:45:53,119 --> 00:45:56,280
play with, this is a thousand units of good. In

851
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,719
my opinion, like what I've been taught to believe about good,

852
00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:02,599
what I've the conclusions I've come up with, these old

853
00:46:02,639 --> 00:46:07,559
sayings I've inherited through my culture, everything about morality leads

854
00:46:07,599 --> 00:46:10,360
me to believe the Bible is a better guide of

855
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,280
morality than the Koran. Therefore, I'm a Christian, and I

856
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,559
believe that it was inspired by a God and all

857
00:46:18,599 --> 00:46:21,760
of the supernatural claims in it are true. I just

858
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,599
want to understand that that's what you're doing.

859
00:46:23,639 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 3: Is that correct?

860
00:46:24,559 --> 00:46:27,039
Speaker 5: Well, I would say parts of the Bible because of

861
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:28,360
what we established earlier.

862
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 3: Sure, sure, fairpoint, fairpoint. Okay.

863
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,559
Speaker 1: So if that's true, and this is sort of my

864
00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:38,559
last bit on this, then one must ask where did

865
00:46:38,599 --> 00:46:39,639
you get the yardstick?

866
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 5: Where did I get the yardstick? Well, in my experience,

867
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,920
I was really I almost became a Hindu when I

868
00:46:48,199 --> 00:46:52,400
was I think I was twenty and I almost became

869
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,480
a Hindu. I went to the Hindu temple, went inside,

870
00:46:56,039 --> 00:46:59,920
and the reason was because I was very inspired by Gandhi.

871
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 7: Mm hmm.

872
00:47:01,679 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 5: And Gandhi said that she accepted Jesus. But he also said,

873
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:08,639
I for an eye makes.

874
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:09,639
Speaker 4: The whole world blind.

875
00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's a great line.

876
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,599
Speaker 2: True. True? Did did Gandhi? Did Gandhi say that Jesus

877
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,199
was divine? Did? Was Gandhi's opinion? As far as you

878
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,480
know that Jesus was one with the god of the universe.

879
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,119
Speaker 5: I don't know that any Hinduism does accept Jesus as

880
00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:36,199
a god. But I don't know that Hinduism is pretty yeah.

881
00:47:36,199 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, yeah, yeah, they do, they do. I guess

882
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,159
I guess really what what I was kind of getting.

883
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 3: At there, Gandhi was not a Christian. Let's put yeah,

884
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:44,159
he was.

885
00:47:44,199 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 2: He was definitely not right, right, That's kind of what

886
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,000
I was getting at, is that Gandhi was definitely not

887
00:47:49,199 --> 00:47:52,760
what what tends to be considered you know, you know,

888
00:47:53,199 --> 00:47:57,880
a Christian, right, And I guess in part what I'm

889
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,360
wondering is at that point point in your life, it

890
00:48:01,559 --> 00:48:05,159
sounds like, you know, you're you're really looking into Hinduism,

891
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,320
you're really inspired by Gandhi. Again, it's it's it's really

892
00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:12,960
measuring up to that that yardstick of morality that you've got.

893
00:48:13,039 --> 00:48:17,039
Like like Cross was talking about, what was it, I mean,

894
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,599
was it this NDE that then made you come over

895
00:48:20,679 --> 00:48:24,360
to you know, more of a Christian lens or or

896
00:48:24,519 --> 00:48:28,000
did did you just suddenly learn some things about Hinduism

897
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:31,079
that didn't match up to your morality? Like what was

898
00:48:31,119 --> 00:48:32,519
that kind of shift for you?

899
00:48:33,119 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 5: Well, I noticed some disturbing things about Hinduism, and uh,

900
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,199
there are still some things I admire about Hinduism, but

901
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,719
I I the there are some gods in their religion

902
00:48:49,079 --> 00:48:53,239
that are literally holding decapitated humans in their hands.

903
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some. There's some I will gladly admit that

904
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,480
there is some things that is a little bit outside

905
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,800
of my noise as well. There's some wild wild There's

906
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,679
a really weird story. And I know Crew is gonna

907
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:07,719
hate me for mentioning this, but I'm just gonna do

908
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,559
it anyway. There was a time where one of the gods,

909
00:49:10,599 --> 00:49:13,000
like his dick got cut off and turned giant and

910
00:49:13,039 --> 00:49:15,920
like started destroying the whole world. So another god turned

911
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,360
herself into a giant vagina. It's very strange. Uh, if

912
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,800
you look up the Shiva Linga, it will explain all

913
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:23,519
of it. It's it's a little weird.

914
00:49:23,679 --> 00:49:27,199
Speaker 3: But the point is, why an option for a movie.

915
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 2: It's honestly be a really great movie, really weird. Why why, Kelly,

916
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,079
don't we just do the same thing that we've done

917
00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:39,440
with the Old Testament and stuff. You know, there's this

918
00:49:39,559 --> 00:49:44,239
whole there's this whole section about how you know, for instance,

919
00:49:44,599 --> 00:49:46,480
you know, eye for an eye like that is part

920
00:49:46,519 --> 00:49:50,719
of it. There is this whole thing about like beating humans,

921
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,119
like enslaving people. You know, there's there's a lot of

922
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:56,079
really there's a lot of really messed up stuff in

923
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,960
certain parts, and I'm with you, like, hey, we'll just

924
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,199
put those to the side, screw them. We can call

925
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,880
it interpretation, we can call it a scribes. You know,

926
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,199
they're they're trying to give a message to their small

927
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,719
group of people. It's not supposed to be universal. I'm

928
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,880
cool with all of that. Why couldn't we just say

929
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,280
the same thing about all the crappy stuff in Hinduism

930
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,679
and Islam, Like, why can't we just throw all those

931
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,559
away and then the rest of it be true?

932
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 5: You know, oh, like sniffs through it for everything it's worth.

933
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,639
Speaker 2: Well, just simply say, just simply give it the same

934
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:32,519
give it the same exact shake that you gave Christianity,

935
00:50:32,559 --> 00:50:35,480
which is, hey, yeah, there's some there's some shit in

936
00:50:35,519 --> 00:50:38,719
here that's a little not smelling so great, but there's

937
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,519
all this other stuff that's that's pretty nice. And now

938
00:50:41,559 --> 00:50:44,199
I believe that, why not do the same thing for

939
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:50,239
Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or Sikhism or Rastafari or Mormonism.

940
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 5: Well, Allah is a word used in Judaism for God.

941
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:01,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that. So there are there are

942
00:51:01,079 --> 00:51:07,360
pretty particular claims right that that are definitely counter you know,

943
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,559
in some of these things. You know, for instance, just

944
00:51:10,559 --> 00:51:12,719
just because I don't think we talk about it enough,

945
00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:18,360
Rastafari Rastafari actually believes that it's one of the tenets

946
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:23,239
of the belief that the Emperor of Ethiopia Hailey SILESIAI

947
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,079
was the second coming of Jesus Christ, that that man,

948
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,079
that human being that was the ruler of the entire

949
00:51:31,639 --> 00:51:34,280
place that we know of as Ethiopia at the time.

950
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,119
This was like back in the sixties or seventies whatever,

951
00:51:37,519 --> 00:51:41,159
that that man was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Now,

952
00:51:41,199 --> 00:51:46,320
that would not particularly vibe well with any of the Abrahamocs,

953
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,960
despite what they decide to call their God, which is

954
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:54,719
ja by the way, Ja as in like Jahweh or Jehovah.

955
00:51:54,880 --> 00:52:00,039
Those types of like didn't exist that far back. So

956
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,880
it's again, it's it's the modern it's the modern understanding

957
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,199
of it, right, just like Jesus wasn't Jesus's name, but

958
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,440
that's what we've all been calling him. It was Yeshua

959
00:52:09,599 --> 00:52:13,679
most likely, you know. But again, the same the same

960
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,639
thing is is presented as a problem. Here we have

961
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,519
competing claims that absolutely cannot work together. But it seems

962
00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:26,159
like with the methodology that you've presented so far to us,

963
00:52:26,639 --> 00:52:29,400
we would actually be on equal footing to accept any

964
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:33,000
of these as well. Right Like, Yeah, there's actually some

965
00:52:33,079 --> 00:52:37,199
really fucked up in Rastafari, right Like, for instance, it's

966
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,440
incredibly homophobic and misogynistic, just as like part of the

967
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,239
tenets of the belief system, it is ingrained into the

968
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:50,679
theology that women and homosexual people are less than that's

969
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:52,760
really fucked up. But again, we just put that shit

970
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,599
aside and we just focus on the jaws, mighty jaws,

971
00:52:56,639 --> 00:53:00,159
all powerful jaw's gonna be the protector of the of

972
00:53:00,159 --> 00:53:04,360
the innocent and stuff. Why not why not be Rastafari

973
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,519
instead of Christian or Muslim or Hindu? What is so

974
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:13,239
special about this religion based on the methodology you've given

975
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:14,159
us today.

976
00:53:14,199 --> 00:53:20,199
Speaker 5: Well, Jesus proved that the death penalty was unjust. He

977
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:24,440
proved that palable humans carrying out the death penalty is unjust.

978
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 2: Was there nobody else before the time of Jesus that

979
00:53:29,599 --> 00:53:33,079
talked about the abolition of the death penalty by the state.

980
00:53:34,039 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 3: And is that really responsive to what SR asked?

981
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 2: Not really?

982
00:53:37,599 --> 00:53:40,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me let me, let me come in. Yeah,

983
00:53:40,599 --> 00:53:45,239
let me try to reframe Sr's question. So we've talked

984
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:47,360
about the measuring stick. You've gone around with your measuring

985
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,679
stick to all of these different belief systems, and you

986
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,559
like what you find in the Bible the most, but

987
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,239
you admit you don't like it all. And I will say,

988
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,840
you even mentioned, Hey, the Torah really is the core stuff.

989
00:53:59,039 --> 00:54:01,159
You need to realize there's a lot of bad stuff

990
00:54:01,159 --> 00:54:02,079
in the Torah as well.

991
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 5: Okay, well I agree, I'm thinking both Old Testament and

992
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:07,559
New Testament.

993
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,199
Speaker 3: Okay, fair enough. Good. So you've got your measuring stick.

994
00:54:12,159 --> 00:54:14,599
Speaker 1: My interest has gone from where did you get the

995
00:54:14,639 --> 00:54:17,800
measuring stick? Like you have to you have to question

996
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:19,800
yourself and say, why do I think?

997
00:54:20,559 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 2: You know?

998
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,559
Speaker 1: I look at the Bible and I say, I see it,

999
00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:27,000
say be nice to people. I see it, say, uh,

1000
00:54:27,039 --> 00:54:29,639
you know, Jesus says not, you know, shun not the

1001
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:31,519
children bring them to me, and I will heal, like,

1002
00:54:31,559 --> 00:54:34,760
that's good. You know all these nice things, But why

1003
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,159
do I think they're good. That's what I mean when

1004
00:54:37,199 --> 00:54:39,719
I ask where did you get the measuring stick? Because

1005
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,360
you can't say the Bible tells me what's good, and

1006
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,280
I know that the Bible's good because the Bible says

1007
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:46,800
it's good.

1008
00:54:47,079 --> 00:54:49,039
Speaker 3: That would be what we call a circular argument.

1009
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,599
Speaker 1: So it seems to me you're using some x, some judgment,

1010
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:57,199
some yardstick that's outside of the Bible to determine that

1011
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,280
the Bible is closest match to a philosophy that you

1012
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,559
want to hold, and since it is the closest match

1013
00:55:04,639 --> 00:55:08,679
to your yardstick, that's the one you're going with. That's

1014
00:55:09,119 --> 00:55:12,360
what I'm understanding, And I have two questions. One is

1015
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:13,519
that a good way of doing it?

1016
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:14,119
Speaker 3: And two?

1017
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: Why not just use your yardstick? Why the need for

1018
00:55:19,559 --> 00:55:22,920
a supernatural layer on it? Why is it not enough

1019
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,760
to just say I am bringing to the table all

1020
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,960
of these moral understandings of the world that were given

1021
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,679
to me by my parents that I've developed over time,

1022
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:37,239
as I've lived through this world and experienced fairness and unfairness,

1023
00:55:38,159 --> 00:55:40,840
as I've read the news, as I've seen things happen,

1024
00:55:41,599 --> 00:55:43,840
I've developed this sense of right and wrong.

1025
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,159
Speaker 3: You seem to presume.

1026
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,639
Speaker 1: That you need to then apply that to this choice

1027
00:55:50,679 --> 00:55:54,480
and say, well, therefore, the sense I have is most

1028
00:55:54,599 --> 00:55:58,840
in line with Christianity. Therefore I'm going to accept Christianity

1029
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,039
the majority of it, including its supernatural claims, as true.

1030
00:56:03,639 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 3: Why do you need to do that?

1031
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:08,039
Speaker 1: Why can't you just accept that you are certain that

1032
00:56:08,119 --> 00:56:11,440
you have these understandings about the world. It's, you know,

1033
00:56:11,599 --> 00:56:13,760
do unto others as you would have do unto you,

1034
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:18,119
and things like that. But I'm I'm assuming you're less

1035
00:56:18,159 --> 00:56:21,519
certain about, you know, whether Jesus walked on water. You know,

1036
00:56:21,599 --> 00:56:23,639
it seems like not as real as what I see

1037
00:56:23,679 --> 00:56:24,599
in front of me every day.

1038
00:56:24,599 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 3: But that's up to you.

1039
00:56:26,039 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 1: Why do you need to add this layer that doesn't

1040
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,920
do anything to your morality except reaffirm it. Can't you

1041
00:56:33,039 --> 00:56:34,719
just use your art stick that you have with you

1042
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,840
and sort of throw out all of these supernatural texts.

1043
00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 5: Well, it wouldn't be unethical to believe in a creator.

1044
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:47,119
Speaker 2: It depends, Yeah, if that if that creator is one

1045
00:56:47,159 --> 00:56:51,079
that's condoning slavery, right like? That would that would probably

1046
00:56:51,159 --> 00:56:53,280
be a bad that probably not, It's.

1047
00:56:53,079 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 1: Probably not unethical to believe in it, But yeah, probably.

1048
00:56:56,039 --> 00:56:59,599
Speaker 3: Not ethical that your beliefs inform your actions.

1049
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,559
Speaker 2: Right, right? But like it wouldn't it? It sure wouldn't.

1050
00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:02,679
It sure wouldn't match.

1051
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,039
Speaker 3: But let's jump back and again.

1052
00:57:05,119 --> 00:57:09,159
Speaker 1: I think you didn't really respond to the question I asked,

1053
00:57:09,519 --> 00:57:13,880
Why don't you stop with your yardstick? Why are you

1054
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,800
in the bookstore measuring all of these supernatural texts to

1055
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,000
try to pick a book off the shelf. Why can't

1056
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,880
you just walk out of the store with just your

1057
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,679
yardstick and use that to measure the actions of the world.

1058
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,039
Why do you need the scripture?

1059
00:57:27,119 --> 00:57:28,719
Speaker 5: Why do I need the scriptures?

1060
00:57:29,079 --> 00:57:29,239
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1061
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: Why can't you just walk out of that bookstore with

1062
00:57:31,599 --> 00:57:34,960
just your yardstick instead of using it to measure all

1063
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,519
the books on the shelf and picking one that is

1064
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,599
a Bible or a Koran or the Rastafarian book or

1065
00:57:41,639 --> 00:57:45,960
the scripture of the Spaghetti Monster, whatever it may be.

1066
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,400
Why are you picking buying a book at all? Can't

1067
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,280
you just use your yardstick? You seem to have a

1068
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,519
good head on your shoulders. Can't you figure out what's

1069
00:57:55,599 --> 00:58:00,519
right and wrong by like reading literature and understand standing

1070
00:58:01,039 --> 00:58:04,599
the being empathetic and understanding what people must be going

1071
00:58:04,639 --> 00:58:08,559
through and sort of judging what actions hurt people and

1072
00:58:08,599 --> 00:58:11,519
what actions help people? Can't you just use that yardstick?

1073
00:58:11,559 --> 00:58:14,639
Why do you need the Bible or the Corona or

1074
00:58:14,639 --> 00:58:15,280
anything else?

1075
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,159
Speaker 5: Well, do you want to know why I am hoping

1076
00:58:19,199 --> 00:58:21,559
that there's a God and what this God could do?

1077
00:58:22,159 --> 00:58:24,840
Or do you want to know something else?

1078
00:58:25,559 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 4: Well?

1079
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,039
Speaker 1: I think you you maybe put the nail on it,

1080
00:58:28,079 --> 00:58:30,760
but I want to make sure I differentiate the two things.

1081
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,280
One is the reasoning that you've walked us too, as

1082
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,280
to why you believe? We like, this whole call was

1083
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:37,920
what do you believe? And then we said and why

1084
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,440
do you believe it? It boiled down to I like

1085
00:58:41,599 --> 00:58:43,559
what I read in the Bible. It matches up with

1086
00:58:43,639 --> 00:58:45,519
my own morality the most. That's sort of what it

1087
00:58:45,559 --> 00:58:48,119
boiled down to. And then my question is, well, then

1088
00:58:48,119 --> 00:58:50,480
why do you need the Bible? If you're just looking

1089
00:58:50,519 --> 00:58:53,159
for things that match what you already believe outside of

1090
00:58:53,159 --> 00:58:56,519
the Bible, why do you need the Bible? So when

1091
00:58:56,519 --> 00:58:58,920
I asked you that, now you're saying, well, why do

1092
00:58:59,000 --> 00:58:59,760
you want to know why?

1093
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,559
Speaker 3: I hope that God is real?

1094
00:59:02,159 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 1: So does that mean that you you believe in the

1095
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:07,800
Bible or you think you need to believe in the

1096
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:11,480
Bible because you you hope that some good will come

1097
00:59:11,519 --> 00:59:13,639
out of it. That's supernatural, Like you hope there's an

1098
00:59:13,639 --> 00:59:14,880
afterlife or something like that.

1099
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:16,199
Speaker 3: Is that where you're where you're going?

1100
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 5: Well, I, before I grew up, I was a very

1101
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,800
mixed up kids, So I learned a lot from books

1102
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,679
and from other adults, and I had abusive parents. And

1103
00:59:31,679 --> 00:59:37,800
so I guess what I'm hoping for in believing in God?

1104
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:42,599
And You're going to think it's really weird, But I'm

1105
00:59:42,679 --> 00:59:47,639
hoping that every wrong will be righted and every tyrant

1106
00:59:47,639 --> 00:59:51,480
will be given a perfect childhood and thus present every.

1107
00:59:51,239 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 4: Harm that has ever happened.

1108
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that, And and sorry, sorry to jump

1109
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,679
in across question.

1110
00:59:59,679 --> 01:00:01,719
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the most honest and best

1111
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:03,320
answers I've ever had on the show.

1112
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 2: Quite That's exactly what I was about to say, like Kelly,

1113
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,159
far from being far from thinking that's a silly or

1114
01:00:09,239 --> 01:00:13,440
crazy answer. I think that is one of the most truest,

1115
01:00:14,119 --> 01:00:17,559
truest fucking things about us as people. I wake up

1116
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:23,960
every single day hoping with everything that I have, giving

1117
01:00:24,159 --> 01:00:29,119
everything to this thought that just will just turn it around.

1118
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:33,840
We'll We'll just wake up one day, tomorrow, the next day,

1119
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,639
next year, and people will just say to themselves, how,

1120
01:00:38,079 --> 01:00:41,239
how do we live in a world where children starve?

1121
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,679
How do we live in a world where where we

1122
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,559
talked about this before the show, where baby formula is

1123
01:00:47,679 --> 01:00:50,159
locked up because people feel the need to have to

1124
01:00:50,199 --> 01:00:55,519
steal it to feed their children. How How it isn't

1125
01:00:55,519 --> 01:00:58,639
there something? Isn't there something out there that we can

1126
01:00:58,679 --> 01:01:01,800
hold on to to to just give us that m

1127
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,519
to get out of bed and take a shower and

1128
01:01:05,559 --> 01:01:10,079
keep going every single fucking day. I am right there

1129
01:01:10,079 --> 01:01:12,440
with you, Kelly, and I'm I'm just gonna rip the

1130
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,719
band aid off here a little bit, okay, And I'm

1131
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,000
I know it's gonna be a little upsetting, but just

1132
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,239
bear with me for a second, okay. I will land

1133
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:22,920
this plane safely for all of us. The determination that

1134
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:26,280
I came to is, there isn't a fucking thing. There

1135
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:32,159
is absolutely nothing written into the fabric of humanity, our society,

1136
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:37,480
into the universe, into anything whatsoever that there is going

1137
01:01:37,519 --> 01:01:39,880
to be a happy ending to this story. There just

1138
01:01:40,239 --> 01:01:44,760
fucking isn't. And everything around us keeps screaming that at

1139
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:51,119
us constantly every second, every second that a child is hurt.

1140
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,880
Every one of those assault cases you talked about that

1141
01:01:54,960 --> 01:02:00,519
goes unprosecuted, every time that a parent has to watch

1142
01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:04,039
their child die in their arms of a preventable disease

1143
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,639
that we got rid of years ago, every time the

1144
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,800
universe yells at us in our faces and says they're

1145
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,639
in a damn thing good coming down the pipe next.

1146
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,320
And you know what, here's where the hope comes in,

1147
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:21,920
because the only fucking thing that has ever made a

1148
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:26,320
difference in that whole shit scenario is us. It's you, Kelly,

1149
01:02:26,599 --> 01:02:29,199
It's me, It's cross Examiner, It's all the people that

1150
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:34,199
gather regularly at the ACA to do something about it.

1151
01:02:34,199 --> 01:02:39,639
It's all the thousands and millions and billions of individual

1152
01:02:39,679 --> 01:02:42,400
actions that we take on a daily basis. Every day

1153
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,360
you don't steal, Kelly, you make this world just a

1154
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:49,119
little bit better. Every day that you choose to be kind,

1155
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,880
you make this world a little bit better. It's us.

1156
01:02:53,199 --> 01:02:56,880
It's right here, It's in our grasp, you know. And

1157
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,800
that's it. That's my hope. That's where that comes from.

1158
01:03:00,239 --> 01:03:02,719
Every single day, Why do I get up because I

1159
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:06,840
know that crosses out there trying is fucking hardest and

1160
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,159
there are other people too, And that's honestly why I

1161
01:03:10,199 --> 01:03:13,159
started hanging out with these guys at the ACA years ago,

1162
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,360
is because every so often you can find a group

1163
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,119
of people who wake up every day thinking that same

1164
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:22,519
damn thing. And I'll tell you, We've been on this

1165
01:03:22,559 --> 01:03:25,639
call almost about an hour, Kelly, and I know there's

1166
01:03:25,679 --> 01:03:27,760
probably some people out there gonna bite my head off

1167
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:29,880
about this, you know, But I'll just tell you this,

1168
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:32,840
after everything I've heard from you, I really feel like

1169
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,280
you're in our camp. I'm not saying you're an atheist.

1170
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:38,440
I'm not saying you don't believe in God or any

1171
01:03:38,519 --> 01:03:40,679
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is you're

1172
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:45,400
somebody who aligns so much on the values that myself

1173
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:50,000
and so many other people here behind the scenes and

1174
01:03:50,039 --> 01:03:53,639
in tons of other places. I bet you where you

1175
01:03:53,719 --> 01:03:56,800
are in Minnesota, there's a group of humanists out there.

1176
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,679
I bet you there is a recovering from Religon chapter

1177
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:03,119
not super Far. And those are the type of people

1178
01:04:03,199 --> 01:04:06,199
who wake up every single day just like you, and

1179
01:04:06,239 --> 01:04:10,480
they say, fuck man, I want something about this world

1180
01:04:10,519 --> 01:04:12,800
to be better by the end of this day, and

1181
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:16,679
they fight for it every single day. And I'm not

1182
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,119
trying to take away your hope in Jesus. I'm not

1183
01:04:19,159 --> 01:04:22,159
trying to take away your love of God and the Scripture.

1184
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,880
What I'm saying is that you can absolutely join in

1185
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,880
with myself and Cross and a bunch of other people

1186
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:31,639
and we can make that difference in front of us.

1187
01:04:31,679 --> 01:04:35,760
We absolutely can. And for me, that's it, that's all

1188
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:38,719
I need. That's all I need. So Cross, give me,

1189
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,079
give me some thoughts, and then we'll we'll finally, we'll

1190
01:04:41,119 --> 01:04:43,440
finally let you you have your Sunday back, Kelly, and

1191
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:44,840
we'll we'll go to some other calls.

1192
01:04:45,119 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kelly, I do want to compliment you on I

1193
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:54,079
think the self examination. I think if you go back

1194
01:04:54,159 --> 01:04:56,559
and listen to this call, I would encourage you to

1195
01:04:56,599 --> 01:04:59,119
listen to those times that we asked a very clear

1196
01:04:59,239 --> 01:05:01,920
question and you were about to do that what about is?

1197
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:05,159
And we talked about you know this, how do you

1198
01:05:05,159 --> 01:05:05,760
explain this?

1199
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:06,079
Speaker 2: Well?

1200
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: What about this other thing? And that is your brain

1201
01:05:08,679 --> 01:05:13,360
sort of trying to avoid a difficult thought. I do

1202
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:18,599
think I agree with secular on everything. I have thought

1203
01:05:18,599 --> 01:05:21,679
about this a lot. You know, in a worldview where

1204
01:05:21,719 --> 01:05:26,480
you don't have a god figure or a final judge,

1205
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,519
a final punishment going to those who are truly evil.

1206
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:34,760
It's easy to despair. It's easy to say, what's the

1207
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:40,800
point when you know you have people that have certain

1208
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:44,480
islands and do certain things on them, and then they

1209
01:05:44,639 --> 01:05:47,800
just die and they never really had to suffer at all, right,

1210
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:51,199
not certainly, not in proportion to the harm that they

1211
01:05:51,239 --> 01:05:54,840
caused in this world. Why what's the point? Why shouldn't

1212
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:57,840
I just go out and get mine Jack? And who

1213
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,400
cares about everybody else? And there's a couple of things

1214
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:02,440
that fight against it. First is that yard stick we

1215
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:03,320
were talking about.

1216
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:04,039
Speaker 3: You have it.

1217
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 1: You have a yard stick, I can tell, and you

1218
01:06:07,559 --> 01:06:10,960
use that yard stick to judge scripture, and you probably

1219
01:06:11,039 --> 01:06:13,039
use it to judge other things in your life. Right,

1220
01:06:13,079 --> 01:06:15,400
you don't get scammed by people saying that they've got

1221
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,719
to get rich quick scheme, and you don't fall for

1222
01:06:18,199 --> 01:06:20,800
people taking your money for faith healing and all of that.

1223
01:06:20,679 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 3: Sort of stuff.

1224
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 1: So I would encourage you to keep using that yard stick,

1225
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:30,760
and then keep asking yourself, isn't this yardstick enough? Why

1226
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:33,239
do I need to hope for all this other stuff

1227
01:06:33,679 --> 01:06:38,360
to be true? And equate that hope with belief? Because

1228
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:42,360
those are two different things. Do I hope that at

1229
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:46,119
some point I will find a twenty million dollar diamond

1230
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:47,679
buried in my backyard?

1231
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 3: Sure?

1232
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,039
Speaker 1: I hope that. Does that mean I believe I will

1233
01:06:51,079 --> 01:06:53,760
do that? No, I don't believe that. I'm not convinced

1234
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:57,079
that will happen the same way with some sort of fair,

1235
01:06:57,239 --> 01:06:59,960
loving God. Do I hope that there is some fire,

1236
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,840
judgment or punishment for the people that we see in

1237
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:08,000
public life right now? Who are you know, killing kids

1238
01:07:08,039 --> 01:07:11,039
through neglect or defunding or bombs?

1239
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 3: Yeah? I hope that. Do I believe that will happen?

1240
01:07:14,119 --> 01:07:14,199
Speaker 2: No?

1241
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,079
Speaker 1: And that's that can be a sad moment, or it

1242
01:07:18,079 --> 01:07:20,599
can be an inspiration to do what secular was talking about,

1243
01:07:20,599 --> 01:07:24,039
which is that old saying about hands folded in prayer

1244
01:07:24,119 --> 01:07:27,280
don't help. It's the hands that get to work that help.

1245
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:31,559
I would encourage you, rather than hoping and wishing for

1246
01:07:31,719 --> 01:07:35,840
something that is not we have no evidence to say

1247
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:38,920
that it's going to actually happen, I would encourage you

1248
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:42,159
to get involved in small local efforts where you can

1249
01:07:42,199 --> 01:07:47,760
help bring about justice. Whether that is volunteering for the ACLU,

1250
01:07:47,519 --> 01:07:52,679
the ACA, there's all sorts of organizations that are trying

1251
01:07:52,719 --> 01:07:55,760
to not fold their hands in prayer and just sit

1252
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:59,440
there and hope and hope and hope, but to unclasp

1253
01:07:59,519 --> 01:08:02,639
those hands and get to work making their local community

1254
01:08:02,639 --> 01:08:06,960
a little bit better. Anything, go volunteer at the library

1255
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:10,679
to sort books onto the shelf, from donating money to

1256
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:16,640
help fight the illegal spread of Christian nationalism through our schools.

1257
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 3: Anything you can do will help.

1258
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:22,119
Speaker 1: But if you don't do anything, then all you're doing

1259
01:08:22,199 --> 01:08:26,880
is closing your eyes and hoping that the helicopter won't crash,

1260
01:08:27,399 --> 01:08:29,439
when in reality, the controls are right in front of

1261
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:32,000
you and you can help try to land the helicopter.

1262
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:34,840
That's a call out to Jen Peebles, one of the

1263
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:38,159
Hope one of the hosts of this show from like

1264
01:08:38,239 --> 01:08:40,680
twenty years ago, where she told a story she was

1265
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:42,800
in the military. I think she was a helicopter pilot

1266
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:47,119
if I'm remembering correctly, Hi, Jen, where she said, you know,

1267
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:49,720
I don't know if they'd taken fire, but there was

1268
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:53,920
a problem and somebody in the copter just started praying

1269
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,640
and praying and praying. And Jen was I think a

1270
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:59,199
captain at the time, piloting the thing, and she was

1271
01:08:59,239 --> 01:09:02,560
the one the the one atheist in the helicopter is

1272
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:04,960
the one that grabbed the controls landed the plane, and

1273
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:08,359
she uses that story to sort of talk about this.

1274
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:09,079
Speaker 3: You know this.

1275
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:11,279
Speaker 1: You can sit there and hope, but that's not really

1276
01:09:11,279 --> 01:09:13,479
going to do anything. So I would encourage you to

1277
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:16,479
keep using your yard stick when you feel that urge

1278
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:18,920
to say, I like what I find in the Bible

1279
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:20,840
except for all these other bad parts. I like the

1280
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:23,000
good parts of the Bible, except for the bad parts

1281
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,119
of the Bible. That should be a red flag to

1282
01:09:25,159 --> 01:09:27,680
you that really what you like is your own yardstick.

1283
01:09:28,079 --> 01:09:32,039
Use that, and then if and when you get sufficient

1284
01:09:32,119 --> 01:09:35,079
evidence to convince you that the supernatural claims of the

1285
01:09:35,079 --> 01:09:37,239
Bible are true, do that.

1286
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 3: I would argue for.

1287
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 1: All the reasons we said that an NDA is not

1288
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:44,520
only insufficient evidence, but it is contradictory evidence.

1289
01:09:45,079 --> 01:09:45,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1290
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:49,359
Speaker 3: So that's that's my closing. And again, a wonderful call.

1291
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:53,039
Speaker 2: I know, Kelly, you have tons and tons of different

1292
01:09:53,039 --> 01:09:57,159
things to say. This absolutely was one of the best

1293
01:09:57,199 --> 01:10:00,680
calls I have taken in a very law time. I

1294
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:04,000
think you were incredibly genuine. You were you were so

1295
01:10:04,279 --> 01:10:07,560
open with us, and that is what it takes, you know,

1296
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:10,760
and and it was a good time. I mean, we

1297
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:13,800
laughed a good bit, we we learned some stuff, we

1298
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:15,520
we talked about a lot of different things, and I

1299
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,560
just think it is so freaking awesome. And I am

1300
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:21,840
terribly sorry because I am just gonna have to drop

1301
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:23,800
you like a hot rock here, and there's no good

1302
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,359
way to do it without it being just a little awkward.

1303
01:10:26,399 --> 01:10:31,119
But call us back in the future, because I think

1304
01:10:31,199 --> 01:10:33,920
there are a bunch of people out there that want

1305
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:37,560
to hear how you progress in this, in these thoughts

1306
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:40,439
and and kind of what you what you end up doing.

1307
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:43,560
And not to say that we're all just sitting around

1308
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:47,600
rooting for you to become an atheist, but there are

1309
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:51,560
many of us here that really value that journey and

1310
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:55,640
understanding kind of how people have changed in their views,

1311
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:59,199
even if where you land is still Christian, even if

1312
01:10:59,239 --> 01:11:01,600
you land in a in a new agey woo woo

1313
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:05,359
crystally thing, if you go to Hinduism, and you you know,

1314
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,079
we just want to hear more from you and have

1315
01:11:08,159 --> 01:11:11,600
really really good conversations like this. Again, Kelly, so thank

1316
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:13,399
you so much, and again I'm so sorry. I'm going

1317
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:16,119
to drop you very very abruptly, but I really really

1318
01:11:16,119 --> 01:11:19,520
do appreciate it. There's never a I've never figured out

1319
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:22,520
a perfect way to just do that other than just

1320
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:24,199
be like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Okay, you're God,

1321
01:11:24,319 --> 01:11:25,640
you know, like, yes.

1322
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:28,359
Speaker 1: No, I think on the good calls, you could keep

1323
01:11:28,399 --> 01:11:30,560
talking to those people forever, but we do have other

1324
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:31,279
calls to get to.

1325
01:11:31,399 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 3: So thank you again, Kelly.

1326
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 1: As a side note, while I was googling the exact

1327
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:40,279
wording of the hands folded in prayer, which I just

1328
01:11:40,359 --> 01:11:43,119
now saw, Madeline Murray O'Hare is the person who gave

1329
01:11:43,159 --> 01:11:46,319
the quote, and it's two hands working can do more

1330
01:11:46,319 --> 01:11:49,279
than a thousands clasped in prayer. But when I was

1331
01:11:49,359 --> 01:11:53,479
googling that, I was getting thousands of results until I

1332
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:56,680
entered the right query of what is the proper way

1333
01:11:56,720 --> 01:12:00,239
to clasp my hands during prayer? And it spoke so

1334
01:12:00,319 --> 01:12:02,760
much to what you're talking about. Is like you're spending

1335
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,119
so many clock cycles on the right way to clasp

1336
01:12:06,159 --> 01:12:09,960
your hand when we have kids ten thousand children starving

1337
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:12,479
to death every day, and measles is coming back in

1338
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:17,000
the United States, and we've got every day there's a

1339
01:12:17,039 --> 01:12:22,520
pastor arrested for sex crimes against children and you're obsessing

1340
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:25,399
over the right color of paint on the wall that

1341
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:30,239
you pray in. So a thousand, one thousand clasped in

1342
01:12:30,319 --> 01:12:32,399
prayer compared to two going to work. I'll take the

1343
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:33,520
two going to work every day.

1344
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 2: I completely, one hundred percent agree with that. And another

1345
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:40,640
another fantastic quote, just with the exact wording, because this

1346
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:43,239
is kind of what I was alluding to earlier. Margaret

1347
01:12:43,359 --> 01:12:47,079
Meade is attributed as saying that never doubt that a

1348
01:12:47,119 --> 01:12:51,319
small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed,

1349
01:12:51,359 --> 01:12:53,319
it is the only thing that ever.

1350
01:12:53,199 --> 01:12:56,560
Speaker 3: Has exactly exactly it.

1351
01:12:56,560 --> 01:13:01,239
Speaker 2: It is two quotes right there from two incredible, incredible women,

1352
01:13:02,359 --> 01:13:06,560
and yeah, like that that about says it all. Add

1353
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:08,880
in the Maya Angelou of do the best you can

1354
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:12,520
until you know better than do better. I mean, fuck, guys,

1355
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:15,119
somebody write that shit down in a book. Let's sell it.

1356
01:13:15,199 --> 01:13:18,319
That's a that's an ethical fucking book right there. Man.

1357
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:20,880
That's beautiful. You know, I don't know that we could

1358
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:22,680
do that, by the way, I don't think like legally

1359
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:25,199
that way. I think we might be like stealing is

1360
01:13:25,199 --> 01:13:27,640
something there. I don't I don't feel like that's okay,

1361
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:31,319
But we're gonna get people working behind the scenes folks

1362
01:13:31,359 --> 01:13:33,840
on that and in the meantime as they are printing

1363
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:36,359
those books or you know, writing them out by hand.

1364
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:39,279
Let me go ahead and tell you to like this video.

1365
01:13:39,359 --> 01:13:43,119
Subscribe to the channel, enable the notifications, comment below on

1366
01:13:43,159 --> 01:13:47,880
your favorite caller. Go meet somebody new in your neighborhood.

1367
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:51,600
Furiously knock on their door until they come out and say, hey,

1368
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:54,000
you gotta check out this show. Oh, I can't say that.

1369
01:13:54,079 --> 01:13:57,039
Do not say that. You don't say that, okay, right, okay,

1370
01:13:57,079 --> 01:13:59,159
So don't do that. Be very clear that that is

1371
01:13:59,199 --> 01:14:01,159
not something that we want people to do. Do not

1372
01:14:01,319 --> 01:14:05,079
harass your neighbors to watch the show, Okay, all right, No, no,

1373
01:14:05,119 --> 01:14:05,600
I get.

1374
01:14:05,479 --> 01:14:09,159
Speaker 3: I mean it's all the word harassed. Okay, that word.

1375
01:14:09,319 --> 01:14:11,680
Speaker 2: Just don't use that word, and then we're acceptable. You

1376
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:15,479
are the lawyer, man, I don't know. I'm getting furious

1377
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:18,720
messages right now. They're streaming by so fast. Hey. Another

1378
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:22,159
way to support us, guys is you can send super

1379
01:14:22,279 --> 01:14:24,800
chats and we will get to as many as we

1380
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:26,880
can possibly read and as long as they adhere to

1381
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:30,880
the terms of service. You can make myself or see

1382
01:14:31,119 --> 01:14:34,000
say all kinds of weird things. For instance, this one

1383
01:14:34,119 --> 01:14:37,359
not very weird. This is from Crispin Slit, who is

1384
01:14:37,359 --> 01:14:39,680
a member for six months, giving us two pounds of

1385
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:43,359
cold hard cash, saying calls are in. Well, thank you

1386
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:46,520
very much, Crispin Slit. We do appreciate that. We appreciate

1387
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:48,840
you being a member. And I think if you are

1388
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:51,359
a member, you can still get like the cute little

1389
01:14:51,359 --> 01:14:53,960
emojis of our faces and stuff. We still have our

1390
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:57,000
face down there. That's awesome. Any members out there throw

1391
01:14:57,159 --> 01:15:00,279
throw our faces in the chat a little, just get

1392
01:15:00,399 --> 01:15:02,680
get a bunch of get a bunch of cross and

1393
01:15:03,119 --> 01:15:06,000
SR faces in there. You know everybody wants more of that.

1394
01:15:06,319 --> 01:15:12,359
Who does it? I also should should tell you that

1395
01:15:12,399 --> 01:15:16,640
there is a way for you to get more involved,

1396
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:19,000
kind of like what we were we were talking about, folks.

1397
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:25,640
So there is this awesome, awesome ability for you, uh

1398
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:28,520
just just hanging out Joe blow in the chat viewer

1399
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:33,560
to join the crew, help out, maybe be a guest

1400
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:36,760
on the show, or even uh be a host like

1401
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:39,479
you and I. You and I were both just random

1402
01:15:39,520 --> 01:15:42,600
people hanging out in the chat doing nothing, uh, saying

1403
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:45,960
all kinds of hail satan's and whatnots and uh and

1404
01:15:46,079 --> 01:15:48,279
next thing, you know, here we are and they just

1405
01:15:48,319 --> 01:15:51,920
give us way too much latitude to say things on here.

1406
01:15:52,039 --> 01:15:55,680
But uh, if you also want to say things that

1407
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:59,119
get you furious emojis behind the scenes from the crew,

1408
01:15:59,359 --> 01:16:02,279
there is a very easy way to do it. You

1409
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:07,760
just shoot an email to volunteer at Atheist typhoncommunity dot org,

1410
01:16:08,079 --> 01:16:10,319
and we have a bunch of wonderful volunteers that are

1411
01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:13,720
gonna be there reading, reading that and reaching back out

1412
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:16,479
to you. There are dozens of people that I know,

1413
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,039
I'm very lucky enough to be friends with that that

1414
01:16:19,079 --> 01:16:21,800
have been able to help out and volunteer in a

1415
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:25,880
number of freaking ways. And again, it's it's how you know,

1416
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:27,840
we both kind of got started. We just we just

1417
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:30,199
watched and we liked, and you know, we just reached

1418
01:16:30,199 --> 01:16:36,039
out and some nice person emailed us back. And that person, unfortunately,

1419
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:40,840
is not as beloved anymore around the Freethought Library. That

1420
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,720
person that brought you and I both on they they're

1421
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:45,399
kind of a persona and on groud of They're like,

1422
01:16:45,399 --> 01:16:48,359
oh my god, who knew the hell you would bring us.

1423
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:53,000
I'm just kidding, guys, I'm just kidding. We're all great

1424
01:16:53,119 --> 01:16:56,520
great friends, but I do need to shout out because

1425
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:59,199
at this point they're furious with me, and I have

1426
01:16:59,279 --> 01:17:02,319
to talk about how beautiful they all are. There is

1427
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:06,119
a wonderful crew that is behind the scenes putting this

1428
01:17:06,239 --> 01:17:10,920
show together. Ye and Greg just just so disappointed. And

1429
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:13,159
it's really that's really the worst part. It's not the

1430
01:17:13,199 --> 01:17:17,800
anger that it's the it's the serious messages that are like, man, honestly,

1431
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:20,239
at this point, I really thought you would understand this,

1432
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:23,439
and the fact that you don't really just concerns me,

1433
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:26,239
you know, Like so it's it's those kinds of quotes

1434
01:17:26,239 --> 01:17:29,279
that kick me up at night. But no, we have

1435
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:33,680
the best video operators, audio operators, note takers, call screeners,

1436
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:38,039
chat moderators, people that help out around the library, people

1437
01:17:38,039 --> 01:17:40,439
that read those emails, people that take care of all

1438
01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:44,159
the questions and all the wonderful things. And yeah, we

1439
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:47,760
really appreciate every single one of them. And again, if

1440
01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:50,920
you want to get involved with it, it's very very easy.

1441
01:17:51,079 --> 01:17:56,319
Just shoot an email over to volunteer at atheistdashcommunity dot org, guys,

1442
01:17:56,720 --> 01:17:59,119
and then yeah, maybe you and I one day can

1443
01:17:59,199 --> 01:18:04,640
be ung looking it up about the Bible. That's right,

1444
01:18:05,039 --> 01:18:07,119
I do I do really, I will say real quick

1445
01:18:07,159 --> 01:18:09,159
before we go to go to another call. I really

1446
01:18:09,159 --> 01:18:11,560
do appreciate that. Kelly was like, yeah, no, there's just

1447
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:12,920
some parts of it I just don't like and I

1448
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:14,640
just don't read them and I just take them out

1449
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:17,439
and it's like, yeah, yeah, I really appreciate that. You know,

1450
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:19,199
that's that's super super awesome.

1451
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:22,680
Speaker 1: They you can you can get a lot of people

1452
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:27,640
who try to play a bunch of my games on

1453
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:31,439
themselves or get into a twisty pretzel knots of logic

1454
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:36,920
to try to accept everything as true. The famous quote

1455
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:40,520
I remember was a pastor somewhere saying if the Bible

1456
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:43,039
said that two plus two was five, I would accept

1457
01:18:43,079 --> 01:18:44,840
that and believe it and then spend my whole life

1458
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:48,119
trying to understand why. And I'm like, man, that's the

1459
01:18:48,159 --> 01:18:53,439
wrong way, right. So yeah, I think that Kelly is

1460
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:57,119
a great caller. It's great to talk to. I love

1461
01:18:57,399 --> 01:18:59,479
I'd love sort of getting a feel for why she

1462
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:03,399
was believed these things. And yeah, I think she like

1463
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:06,600
I said, it's x files I want to believe, and

1464
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:08,279
she even said it at the end. I want there

1465
01:19:08,279 --> 01:19:10,359
to be a punishment. I want there to be consequences

1466
01:19:10,399 --> 01:19:13,920
for bad people. If we had to summarize, summarize that,

1467
01:19:14,079 --> 01:19:16,439
what do you believe in? Why I believe in Christianity

1468
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:18,560
because I want there to be consequences for bad people?

1469
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:20,800
Speaker 3: And you're not alone.

1470
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:26,000
Speaker 1: It's just it's not, you know, creating a worldview in

1471
01:19:26,039 --> 01:19:28,039
which you believe things because you want them to be

1472
01:19:28,119 --> 01:19:30,359
true opens you up to risk in other areas. This

1473
01:19:30,399 --> 01:19:32,079
is something I didn't have the opportunity to tell her.

1474
01:19:32,079 --> 01:19:34,680
But you know, when I mentioned that, Hey, I hope

1475
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:38,399
you're not falling for Ponzi schemes or you know, fraudsters

1476
01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:43,880
or WU operators. When you believe because you want to,

1477
01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:45,319
you open yourself.

1478
01:19:45,319 --> 01:19:46,800
Speaker 3: You make yourself look more vulnerable.

1479
01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:50,640
Speaker 1: You're not exercising that skeptical muscle of like I'm only

1480
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:52,960
going to accept something as true once I've become convinced

1481
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:56,479
based on sufficient evidence, and that can put you at risk.

1482
01:19:56,520 --> 01:19:59,880
But I think Kelly's seems aware enough of her method.

1483
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:03,439
I'm just hoping that she just looks at that yard

1484
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:05,680
stick that's already in her hand and goes, wow, this

1485
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:07,399
is pretty finely tuned already.

1486
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:09,159
Speaker 3: Yeah. Everything else is what's.

1487
01:20:09,039 --> 01:20:13,159
Speaker 1: The Napoleon quote that where laplace is presenting of the

1488
01:20:13,199 --> 01:20:16,159
model of the Napoleon, and Napoleon says, where does God fit in?

1489
01:20:16,199 --> 01:20:18,039
Speaker 3: And he says, I don't need.

1490
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:19,800
Speaker 1: That to make the model work, or I don't need

1491
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,399
that variable or something like it would just be another

1492
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:25,720
useless gear doing nothing. I kind of feel like that

1493
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:28,239
way about Kelly, Like you've got the yard stick, you're

1494
01:20:28,279 --> 01:20:31,319
a good person. Don't believe in the god stuff without

1495
01:20:31,319 --> 01:20:32,800
sufficient evidence, yep.

1496
01:20:33,079 --> 01:20:36,279
Speaker 2: And then I'd say, because I totally, I totally agree

1497
01:20:36,319 --> 01:20:38,880
with you that there's so so many people out there

1498
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:42,479
who's like, you know, moral or ethical perspective comes down

1499
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:45,199
to this. You know, I want there to be punishment

1500
01:20:45,279 --> 01:20:48,079
for wrongdoers out there. You know, I want somebody to

1501
01:20:48,399 --> 01:20:51,520
hold them accountable. You know, in the long run, I

1502
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:54,880
would say, we flip that and instead of looking at

1503
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:58,279
the ethical guiding principle as being we want consequences for

1504
01:20:58,319 --> 01:21:01,079
the bad things, I would say we want we want

1505
01:21:01,199 --> 01:21:04,520
better or more good things. I would say, but that's

1506
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,760
a that's a whole other conversation that we're not having

1507
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:10,760
at the moment, because I am gonna tell you about

1508
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:14,439
this awesome super chat we just got in from sad

1509
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:17,520
tech geek for five Canadian dollars. And before I go

1510
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:19,319
any further, I just want to mention the fact that

1511
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:21,560
thank you so much. I love that you put the

1512
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:26,039
phonetic spelling of Saskatchewana in there. I genuinely that made

1513
01:21:26,119 --> 01:21:29,159
me so happy. It just it just made me. It

1514
01:21:29,319 --> 01:21:32,479
just I just I just got tickled. Anyway. The former

1515
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:36,800
NDP Premiere of Saskatchewan, Tommy Douglass, considered the father of

1516
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:40,079
medicare in Canada, use the Mead quote all the time.

1517
01:21:40,199 --> 01:21:43,079
That's awesome. Yeah, it's a super super great quote for sure,

1518
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:46,319
and a lot to be a lot to be learned

1519
01:21:46,359 --> 01:21:50,520
by Madeline, Muriel Hare, Margaret Meade and My Angelou. Like

1520
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:52,600
a freaking powerhouse can.

1521
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:53,319
Speaker 3: Do a lot worse.

1522
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:54,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you sure could.

1523
01:21:55,319 --> 01:21:57,000
Speaker 3: Fantasy philosopher game.

1524
01:21:57,039 --> 01:21:59,319
Speaker 2: I could think of I could think of a handful

1525
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:02,039
right now that sit in positions of power. But we're

1526
01:22:02,039 --> 01:22:03,520
not going to talk about that. We're going to go

1527
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,359
out to a call. We've got this fella here, Lukey

1528
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:09,720
him pronouns in Florida. It just kind of sounds like

1529
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:12,239
we're talking about it seems like he's an atheist. Yeah,

1530
01:22:12,239 --> 01:22:14,039
we're going to talk a little bit about some of

1531
01:22:14,039 --> 01:22:17,239
the implausible stuff in the Bible. So, hey, Luke, what

1532
01:22:17,319 --> 01:22:18,359
you got for us today?

1533
01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:18,920
Speaker 7: Hey?

1534
01:22:19,239 --> 01:22:21,880
Speaker 6: So, I just wanted to present some arguments against Christianity

1535
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:23,960
and I'm going to see if you guys think about them.

1536
01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:26,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, man, you want to test out a couple

1537
01:22:26,159 --> 01:22:28,319
of things, Just just see if we think there's there's

1538
01:22:28,319 --> 01:22:30,600
some holes or anything. We can put on a little

1539
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:32,399
bit of our Christian apologists hat.

1540
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:34,399
Speaker 7: Tell me if there's anything wrong with it. You know,

1541
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:36,079
kind of want to get educated from you guys. You

1542
01:22:36,119 --> 01:22:36,520
know what I mean.

1543
01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:39,960
Speaker 2: We will piss you off as best we can. Luke,

1544
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:40,680
how about.

1545
01:22:40,399 --> 01:22:45,239
Speaker 6: It sounds good? So my first argument is God's just impossible.

1546
01:22:45,279 --> 01:22:47,760
I mean, how could he speak things into existence? How

1547
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:50,199
could his words make something appear from nothing? Like he

1548
01:22:50,239 --> 01:22:53,600
has no materials, nothing exists at all. How could he

1549
01:22:53,680 --> 01:22:56,079
speak words and those words create things?

1550
01:22:56,560 --> 01:22:58,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, he phrases the words. How does that create things?

1551
01:22:58,800 --> 01:22:58,880
Speaker 2: Like?

1552
01:22:58,920 --> 01:22:59,680
Speaker 6: That's impossible.

1553
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:00,520
Speaker 7: That's not yet.

1554
01:23:01,039 --> 01:23:01,840
Speaker 3: So let's start.

1555
01:23:02,199 --> 01:23:07,760
Speaker 1: You're asserting, you're asserting things that you don't know. Impossibility

1556
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:12,600
has to be proven, and impossibility, I mean possibility must

1557
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:15,680
be proven and impossibility must be proven, and it is

1558
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:18,000
quite frankly probably harder to prove I have to think

1559
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:21,359
about that one, but I don't think it's a great

1560
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:25,720
argument because it's got a couple of problems. One and

1561
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:28,680
before you can say God is impossible, you then have

1562
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:31,039
to say, well which God, So you need to start there.

1563
01:23:31,119 --> 01:23:34,840
And then to say to just assert that a god

1564
01:23:35,039 --> 01:23:39,239
speaking things into existence is impossible, you have no evidence

1565
01:23:39,279 --> 01:23:39,960
to base that on.

1566
01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:42,560
Speaker 6: I kind of do though, because there had to have

1567
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:45,279
been a naturalistic process where things are correct. We do

1568
01:23:45,359 --> 01:23:47,039
know that we know the plant to create it, because

1569
01:23:47,119 --> 01:23:50,239
like there's this whole process where these particles come together

1570
01:23:50,279 --> 01:23:52,560
and things be created evolved over time, Like we have

1571
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:53,640
evidence of that.

1572
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:57,520
Speaker 1: We have evidence that a naturalist brought naturalistic hold on,

1573
01:23:57,560 --> 01:24:00,359
hold on, we have evidence that a naturalistic problem as

1574
01:24:00,399 --> 01:24:05,760
has created things. But what you're saying is utterly unrelated

1575
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:09,760
to that. What you're saying is speaking the universe or

1576
01:24:09,800 --> 01:24:14,920
anything into existence is impossible. How are you demonstrating that

1577
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:15,960
that is impossible?

1578
01:24:16,319 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 2: Right current?

1579
01:24:17,039 --> 01:24:18,640
Speaker 3: Let's put it in another way, how.

1580
01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:20,920
Speaker 1: Would you demonstrate that it would be impossible to find

1581
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:23,159
a teacup ordering orbiting Saturn?

1582
01:24:23,159 --> 01:24:24,000
Speaker 3: How would you find that?

1583
01:24:24,199 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 1: Like, like, it's very hard to just assert something argumentative

1584
01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:30,239
that something is impossible when you don't have a very

1585
01:24:30,359 --> 01:24:34,520
very very thorough methodology of investigating all possibilities.

1586
01:24:34,520 --> 01:24:36,479
Speaker 2: So go ahead, starry, no, no, no, because this is

1587
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:38,520
perfect and let me let me. I'll bring up to

1588
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:41,319
two things. One just on that line of thought, and

1589
01:24:41,359 --> 01:24:43,920
then I'll go back to the initial statement there, because

1590
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:45,880
again we're just trying to you know, metal sharp and

1591
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:49,960
metal here. So like the thing that I would say

1592
01:24:50,279 --> 01:24:55,479
is instead of instead of saying impossible, right, just give

1593
01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:59,560
yourself a little bit more grace and ground to stand on. Right, Like,

1594
01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:03,000
say something to the effect of everything we know about

1595
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:06,760
the natural world seems to point to us that this

1596
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:11,920
is incredibly unlikely, if not impossible. You're basically saying the

1597
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:14,279
same thing, Luke. But do you see how you've already

1598
01:25:14,279 --> 01:25:18,279
put yourself on more solid ground. Instead of saying there

1599
01:25:18,319 --> 01:25:21,760
are no black swans, you then take the claim to

1600
01:25:22,039 --> 01:25:24,920
currently all of the swans we've ever seen are white.

1601
01:25:25,359 --> 01:25:28,079
That's a much more solid ground to stand on, right.

1602
01:25:28,439 --> 01:25:30,800
And then the other thing I would go ahead, go ahead.

1603
01:25:31,079 --> 01:25:33,159
Speaker 7: The one thing I noticed is I have a Christian family.

1604
01:25:33,159 --> 01:25:36,000
I live with a Christian family, and so I.

1605
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:38,359
Speaker 6: Found the easiest way to convert them is to talk

1606
01:25:38,359 --> 01:25:40,640
about how God's is magical, being the speech things to existed,

1607
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:41,720
you know, to make kind of make fun of the

1608
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:44,560
almost to show how it's an impossible fantasy, you know

1609
01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:45,000
what I mean.

1610
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:47,840
Speaker 3: Kids don't stop believing.

1611
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:52,039
Speaker 1: Some kids don't stop believing in Santa Claus until you

1612
01:25:52,159 --> 01:25:54,640
get teased at school about it. Like there's lots of

1613
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:58,840
different paths to people being deconverted from Santa Claus belief

1614
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:03,560
and religious beliefs. So yep, absolutely true. But I agree

1615
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:07,920
with SR. The word impossible is you're putting the burden

1616
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:11,840
of proof onto you, and it's better to say other

1617
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:14,960
things like how would you like or turn it around

1618
01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:17,920
and say what evidence do you have that anything ever

1619
01:26:18,039 --> 01:26:19,800
spoke before the Big Bang?

1620
01:26:20,119 --> 01:26:20,239
Speaker 2: Right?

1621
01:26:21,159 --> 01:26:24,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the much better position to say, what does

1622
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:27,680
the Bible mean when it says God spoke things into existence?

1623
01:26:28,239 --> 01:26:31,399
When we know that the people who wrote that story,

1624
01:26:31,680 --> 01:26:35,159
like the original story coming from the Torah was an

1625
01:26:35,279 --> 01:26:40,159
oral tradition starting with Bronze age illiterate sheep herders or

1626
01:26:40,199 --> 01:26:43,279
goat herders who didn't know where the sun went at night. Right,

1627
01:26:43,319 --> 01:26:45,680
that's where this story comes from. And you're now telling

1628
01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:48,239
me after we've learned everything about the cosmos, and we

1629
01:26:48,319 --> 01:26:49,880
know that we come back to this point called the

1630
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:53,279
Big Bang, behind which it may not even make sense

1631
01:26:53,319 --> 01:26:55,800
to say what happened before then. But you're telling me

1632
01:26:56,279 --> 01:27:01,439
that those guys got the message that God spoke things

1633
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:04,279
into existence. What evidence do you have that that is

1634
01:27:04,399 --> 01:27:07,560
actually in any shape or form true? What evidence? That's

1635
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:09,319
the better way to do it than to say it

1636
01:27:09,399 --> 01:27:10,880
is impossible.

1637
01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:12,520
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and real quick. And then I want to go

1638
01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:14,439
back to something else that you just said there, Luke,

1639
01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:17,800
because I think that may be kind of the crux

1640
01:27:17,840 --> 01:27:20,439
of this that that would be really fun to tease out.

1641
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:23,520
But just real quick, just because I know there's somebody

1642
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:27,119
out there fallacy police screaming at me right now. Technically,

1643
01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:30,920
the argument that you presented is under that kind of

1644
01:27:31,399 --> 01:27:36,439
a category of like incredulity, which basically is when somebody says, like, well,

1645
01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:38,960
how could Michael Jordan even make a shot from that

1646
01:27:39,119 --> 01:27:42,680
far on the court? You know, that doesn't actually demonstrate

1647
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:47,600
that he didn't or can't. It's just our inability to understand, right.

1648
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:49,560
Speaker 3: I can't imagine a way it would happen.

1649
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:53,239
Speaker 2: Therefore it's therefore it can't write exactly and so so

1650
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:56,960
Christian apologists, those that are very you know, studied in

1651
01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:59,760
philosophy and things, would would would kind of you know,

1652
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:02,239
pay at that. But let me go back to what

1653
01:28:02,279 --> 01:28:04,319
you just said a second ago, because I think that

1654
01:28:04,399 --> 01:28:07,199
might be the more important issue, which is about where

1655
01:28:07,279 --> 01:28:10,239
you said, you know, the best way to deconvert my

1656
01:28:10,319 --> 01:28:13,079
family is X y Z. And one of the ways

1657
01:28:13,079 --> 01:28:15,439
you mentioned is humor, which I very much value. I

1658
01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:18,720
think there there is a lot that good natured humor.

1659
01:28:20,039 --> 01:28:22,760
Speaker 6: Serious man, he's a very serious man. So if you

1660
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:25,079
argue with him logically and say, oh, I hold this position,

1661
01:28:25,279 --> 01:28:27,840
but you're for sure fine that he's gonna you don't

1662
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:30,119
feel all good about his belief. But I say, Dad,

1663
01:28:30,119 --> 01:28:32,319
you believe in this magical man that speaks thinks of existence.

1664
01:28:32,359 --> 01:28:34,680
Speaker 7: Sure he doesn't like that, you know, Yeah, yeah, I

1665
01:28:35,039 --> 01:28:35,399
get it.

1666
01:28:35,399 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 2: Trust me, I trust me, trust me. I get it. Man,

1667
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:39,479
I I understand.

1668
01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:42,199
Speaker 6: I understand the tactic and stuff.

1669
01:28:42,479 --> 01:28:44,399
Speaker 2: Hang on just second, Luke, hang on, because I want to.

1670
01:28:44,479 --> 01:28:46,359
I just want to. We've we've been bringing up quotes

1671
01:28:46,399 --> 01:28:47,720
all day, and I want I want to bring up

1672
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:50,199
one quote from this this super awesome guy named doctor

1673
01:28:50,279 --> 01:28:53,279
Darryl Ray. He actually uh said it once on this

1674
01:28:53,439 --> 01:28:55,840
show many years ago, where somebody had called in and

1675
01:28:55,880 --> 01:28:57,880
they had asked about, you know, what's the best way

1676
01:28:57,920 --> 01:28:59,840
to X y Z, how do I this? How do

1677
01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:02,680
I that? And he just said, you know, what's really

1678
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:06,399
your goal? Like what's the point of what you're doing

1679
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:09,079
and you're trying to get this system and all this

1680
01:29:09,119 --> 01:29:10,880
stuff worked out, and like what do you want at

1681
01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:13,399
the end of it? And like, that's a good question

1682
01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:16,760
to ask, Loup, because if what you really want is

1683
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:18,399
kind of like what you just said a minute ago,

1684
01:29:18,520 --> 01:29:20,680
which is just like, man, I just I just want

1685
01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:23,600
to burn all their thoughts to the ground, baby, I

1686
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:26,880
just want them to fucking wake up tomorrow and say

1687
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:30,279
Jesus is dumb as fuck and I was duped and

1688
01:29:30,359 --> 01:29:32,760
fuck all this church shit. You know, if that's kind

1689
01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:35,600
of what you want there, there is a lot of

1690
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:39,399
there are a lot of tactics and methods that you

1691
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:43,199
could use to do that. I would just say, and

1692
01:29:43,239 --> 01:29:46,079
this is just totally my personal opinion, brother, I don't

1693
01:29:46,119 --> 01:29:49,199
think that that's the best way to do it. I

1694
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:52,319
think doing something a bit more kind of like what

1695
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:55,159
Cross was talking about, where he was saying, you know,

1696
01:29:56,600 --> 01:29:58,840
you know, kind of kind of ask them questions, kind

1697
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:00,960
of bring it back on them. You know, hey, do

1698
01:30:01,039 --> 01:30:03,439
you actually believe like God's spokes things into existence? Like

1699
01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:05,520
how did that work? Like was it like like a

1700
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:08,239
bat screech and God just went ah and then like

1701
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:11,039
planets happened, Like how does that work? You know?

1702
01:30:11,159 --> 01:30:13,119
Speaker 6: Kind of because of the materials pop up?

1703
01:30:13,159 --> 01:30:16,039
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, yeah, and and kind of by by

1704
01:30:16,159 --> 01:30:20,119
doing that, by teasing that out right, by by teasing

1705
01:30:20,159 --> 01:30:23,000
that out like it can kind of show the absurdness

1706
01:30:23,039 --> 01:30:25,359
of it too, you know. And in fact, there is

1707
01:30:25,439 --> 01:30:29,720
this argument at absurdom where basically what you do is

1708
01:30:29,720 --> 01:30:32,840
is you take this claim and you go, okay, let's

1709
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:36,239
just follow that, you know, and you keep going to

1710
01:30:36,319 --> 01:30:38,560
the next step and then what and then what and

1711
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:41,279
then what and then okay, so we robbed the bank, right,

1712
01:30:41,640 --> 01:30:43,600
then what did he do? Well, he went home with

1713
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:45,920
the money. Then what did he do? He spent the money?

1714
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:47,880
Then he did this, then he did this. Well, now

1715
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:49,920
we know it's not true because in this scenario, the

1716
01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:52,239
guy's the fucking president of the United States. You see

1717
01:30:52,239 --> 01:30:55,359
how that's ridiculous, father, you know, you see how that's

1718
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:59,159
kind of silly, brother, uncle, whatever, you know, but yeah,

1719
01:30:59,199 --> 01:31:03,319
I think a big part of this is coming back

1720
01:31:03,359 --> 01:31:06,720
to that, like, is is the goal to just I

1721
01:31:06,800 --> 01:31:08,880
just want to tear down there believes one hundred percent,

1722
01:31:09,039 --> 01:31:11,399
you know, which I'm not saying is wrong or bad.

1723
01:31:11,720 --> 01:31:13,600
I'm just saying, you know, maybe I would choose a

1724
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:15,399
different tac But is that kind of where you're coming

1725
01:31:15,399 --> 01:31:16,560
from on this loop? Oh?

1726
01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:18,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, that is not good. I want to make them realize,

1727
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:21,119
you know, yeah, too much of their life.

1728
01:31:21,199 --> 01:31:21,680
Speaker 3: Well what what?

1729
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:21,680
Speaker 2: What?

1730
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:21,800
Speaker 6: What?

1731
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:22,199
Speaker 2: What? What? What?

1732
01:31:22,199 --> 01:31:22,520
Speaker 3: What? What?

1733
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:22,680
Speaker 6: What?

1734
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:25,560
Speaker 3: Wha? I think you just said. I want to make

1735
01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:27,800
them realize it's stupid.

1736
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:30,600
Speaker 7: That correct, make them realize that it is out of reality.

1737
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:31,840
That's not a part of reality.

1738
01:31:32,199 --> 01:31:35,399
Speaker 1: But what you said was stupid, right? What But what

1739
01:31:35,439 --> 01:31:38,039
you said was stupid? The word you used was stupid?

1740
01:31:38,119 --> 01:31:41,159
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, Okay, I'm.

1741
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:44,000
Speaker 1: Going to sort of object and provide some input on that.

1742
01:31:45,159 --> 01:31:47,600
I wouldn't use those terms, And I think the fact

1743
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:49,840
that you use those terms might say more about your

1744
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:53,840
mentality than theirs. I've known a lot of very very

1745
01:31:53,840 --> 01:31:56,760
intelligent people that are very very Christian.

1746
01:31:57,119 --> 01:31:58,520
Speaker 3: Okay, so I wouldn't.

1747
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:02,399
Speaker 1: I would recommend avoiding that mentality. The word whatever you

1748
01:32:02,479 --> 01:32:04,119
use the word right, and you may use it as

1749
01:32:04,159 --> 01:32:07,560
slang or whatever, but I think that I need you

1750
01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:11,279
to stop talking when we're talking. Okay, you're you're excited,

1751
01:32:11,319 --> 01:32:13,720
I can tell that, But I'm trying to give you advice.

1752
01:32:13,760 --> 01:32:16,560
You ostensibly called in for advice. That was what the

1753
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:19,439
call was about. So I want to give that advice

1754
01:32:19,479 --> 01:32:22,880
to you. And what I'm worried about is that you're

1755
01:32:22,960 --> 01:32:26,880
unseerious about this, that this is something that is just

1756
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:29,319
a game. You're doing it because you don't like your family,

1757
01:32:29,399 --> 01:32:32,199
or you're just trying to poke buttons or whatever. We're

1758
01:32:32,239 --> 01:32:36,880
here trying to help people around the world who struggle

1759
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:39,319
with why they believe things and whether or not they

1760
01:32:39,319 --> 01:32:41,840
should believe things. We've had people call in from the

1761
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:43,960
Middle East that if they were caught on the phone

1762
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:45,720
with us, they would be put to death.

1763
01:32:47,119 --> 01:32:49,199
Speaker 3: So when you come in and say I want.

1764
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:52,880
Speaker 1: To get back at my stupid parents or their stupid beliefs,

1765
01:32:52,920 --> 01:32:55,000
I do want to call that out a little bit and.

1766
01:32:54,920 --> 01:32:57,960
Speaker 3: Say, no, I think they again.

1767
01:32:58,239 --> 01:33:00,680
Speaker 1: Hold on, I want to call that out a little

1768
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:03,680
bit and say I don't think their beliefs are stupid.

1769
01:33:04,119 --> 01:33:05,720
I don't think and I don't think you were saying

1770
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:10,439
they were stupid. But when you have that mentality, I

1771
01:33:10,479 --> 01:33:14,600
think that it taints the way that you approach the problem.

1772
01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:18,239
If you genuinely want to help people, then don't go

1773
01:33:18,279 --> 01:33:23,039
around thinking their beliefs are stupid, go around thinking they're mistaken.

1774
01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:24,640
Speaker 3: They have these beliefs.

1775
01:33:25,359 --> 01:33:28,000
Speaker 1: There's more people in the world that have some sort

1776
01:33:28,039 --> 01:33:31,399
of those beliefs than don't, and not the whole world

1777
01:33:31,439 --> 01:33:35,159
is stupid. So you know, a little more of a

1778
01:33:35,159 --> 01:33:38,399
white glove treatment. Tread a little more carefully, because while

1779
01:33:38,399 --> 01:33:40,680
it's okay to be the kid on the bus making

1780
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:43,800
fun of the kid who believes in Santa Claus, I

1781
01:33:43,800 --> 01:33:46,199
don't think that kid's stupid, and I don't think that

1782
01:33:46,279 --> 01:33:48,840
he's stupid for believing what his parents told him at

1783
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:51,960
an age where he trusts his parents. And that's all

1784
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:55,600
I'm saying is be a little more careful because otherwise,

1785
01:33:56,439 --> 01:33:58,960
you quite frankly, you just sound like somebody who wants

1786
01:33:59,000 --> 01:33:59,600
to be a jerk.

1787
01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:02,079
Speaker 7: Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

1788
01:34:02,079 --> 01:34:04,560
Speaker 6: I think that he's an intelligent guy, but this one

1789
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:05,560
belief that holds.

1790
01:34:05,359 --> 01:34:06,159
Speaker 7: Us back so much.

1791
01:34:06,560 --> 01:34:09,079
Speaker 6: It's sure, Yeah, accept reality.

1792
01:34:09,520 --> 01:34:11,439
Speaker 7: He's all guys in a lot of ways. He's a nurse.

1793
01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 6: He's very smart, you know what I mean.

1794
01:34:13,319 --> 01:34:16,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you and you're you're probably you're probably coming

1795
01:34:16,399 --> 01:34:21,439
from a very similar position, Luke that the the totally

1796
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:25,439
devout believing Christians and Muslims and stuff, you know, for instance,

1797
01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:31,199
in in the Islamic teachings. It's not it's really many

1798
01:34:31,279 --> 01:34:34,159
many people believe this. There are versions that that do

1799
01:34:34,319 --> 01:34:37,920
not agree. But many people think, think and have said

1800
01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:43,800
for a long time. The Koranic scripture absolutely abhorrors homosexuals, okay,

1801
01:34:44,079 --> 01:34:47,600
and those people really they really feel like they're they're

1802
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:51,239
doing good things. You know. All they want is they

1803
01:34:51,279 --> 01:34:54,880
want Elton John to to to go to heaven with

1804
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:57,680
them too. They don't want him to be tortured for eternally,

1805
01:34:57,720 --> 01:35:00,199
and that's why they want him to stop being gay,

1806
01:35:00,560 --> 01:35:05,039
you know, and like like this, yeah, but but do

1807
01:35:05,079 --> 01:35:08,279
you see how kind of pointing back to what what

1808
01:35:08,399 --> 01:35:11,079
Cross was cautioning a little bit that you're you're kind

1809
01:35:11,079 --> 01:35:15,680
of touching on that territory yourself, right in the sense

1810
01:35:15,720 --> 01:35:17,760
of like there's a little bit of this kind of

1811
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:23,439
patronizing talking down whereas it might be, and it seems

1812
01:35:23,600 --> 01:35:27,319
to be the case based on some data and psychology

1813
01:35:27,399 --> 01:35:33,680
and stuff like having more of a a compassionate viewpoint

1814
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:37,039
in this and and coming not from the perspective of like, man,

1815
01:35:37,119 --> 01:35:40,159
you're so smart everywhere else, you're just a fucking dipshit

1816
01:35:40,199 --> 01:35:42,479
when it comes to this, and having more of like

1817
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:46,279
a hey, maybe you're you're you're convinced for not super

1818
01:35:46,319 --> 01:35:50,239
great reasons, or maybe you're mistaken, or even again, flip it,

1819
01:35:50,439 --> 01:35:53,760
hey maybe I'm super duper mistaken. And I just genuinely

1820
01:35:53,800 --> 01:35:57,600
don't understand. Could you explain this to me? How does

1821
01:35:58,199 --> 01:36:03,319
a being outside of space and time, before time in

1822
01:36:03,359 --> 01:36:07,880
the universe existed, how does it talk stuff into existence?

1823
01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:10,399
That's a little odd to me. You know again, I

1824
01:36:10,399 --> 01:36:12,239
I just want you to know that I am not

1825
01:36:12,680 --> 01:36:15,800
I am not saying that what you're doing is like

1826
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:17,359
the worst thing in the world. There are a ton

1827
01:36:17,399 --> 01:36:19,439
of people out there on the youtubes man, that are

1828
01:36:19,479 --> 01:36:22,720
super popular for doing shit like that. And I might

1829
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:25,800
just say, you know, start a fucking TikTok, right and

1830
01:36:25,800 --> 01:36:28,039
and put your views out there and see, you know

1831
01:36:28,079 --> 01:36:31,560
how people respond and stuff. I personally and this is

1832
01:36:31,640 --> 01:36:33,640
just this is just my own tact. And I know

1833
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:37,319
cross Examiner is is kind of in this as well too.

1834
01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:40,319
We both tend to take a bit more of a

1835
01:36:40,479 --> 01:36:43,600
of a you know, softer approach. We tend to take

1836
01:36:43,640 --> 01:36:46,600
a bit more of the compassionate kind of thing. I

1837
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:51,520
will say, when it comes to family members especially, it

1838
01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:57,039
is really really difficult, if not impossible, uh, to keep

1839
01:36:57,279 --> 01:37:00,880
that more compassionate kind of feel, you know, to keep

1840
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:05,520
that more kind of cool, level headed approach, because obviously

1841
01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:08,560
you care very much about them, You love them very much,

1842
01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:12,319
and especially when you see the harm that it's causing them, right,

1843
01:37:12,359 --> 01:37:16,960
whether it's psychological and emotional or physical and financial, exactly,

1844
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:20,000
you just want them to feel better, man, exactly. I'm

1845
01:37:20,079 --> 01:37:22,640
and I'm so right there with you and for me,

1846
01:37:23,239 --> 01:37:27,039
because that's my focus, right, Because where I come to

1847
01:37:27,119 --> 01:37:30,000
this is not I want all the bad Christians to

1848
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:34,279
be punished. I mean, sure, I want consequences for bad actions, right,

1849
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:37,159
but that's not my focus. What my focus is is

1850
01:37:37,319 --> 01:37:41,079
I want everybody to be as as lifted as they

1851
01:37:41,119 --> 01:37:44,640
possibly can. I want everybody to be in as best

1852
01:37:44,640 --> 01:37:47,640
of a place as they possibly can with the minimal

1853
01:37:47,680 --> 01:37:52,520
amount of suffering, right absolutely everywhere. And so because of

1854
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:56,840
that view, I approach it this way. And the reason

1855
01:37:56,840 --> 01:37:59,560
that I approach it this way is because again, there

1856
01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:01,680
are much smarter people than me that have been looking

1857
01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:04,640
at this shit for a long time and they say that, hey,

1858
01:38:05,359 --> 01:38:08,680
method over here A it doesn't work as well getting

1859
01:38:08,720 --> 01:38:12,119
us to that point, whereas method B over here does

1860
01:38:12,159 --> 01:38:15,720
seem to. And again, I am sure not the expert

1861
01:38:15,760 --> 01:38:17,439
on this or anything. I am not the end all

1862
01:38:17,439 --> 01:38:23,159
be all. There's this awesome, awesome nonprofit called Street Epistemology International.

1863
01:38:24,079 --> 01:38:27,760
They offer these free courses man, that just teach you

1864
01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:30,520
how to have conversation like this, you know, and you

1865
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:33,159
just walk through it on your own. It's called Navigating Beliefs.

1866
01:38:33,199 --> 01:38:36,600
It's completely free. I just think they're a really great

1867
01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:39,399
organization personally, and I love them, and they have a

1868
01:38:39,399 --> 01:38:41,920
lot of really good things that they do, and they

1869
01:38:41,920 --> 01:38:43,600
talk about this stuff. And there's a bunch of other

1870
01:38:43,640 --> 01:38:47,079
people as well, man. You know. But again, I'm gonna

1871
01:38:47,079 --> 01:38:50,800
be honest with you, Luke, I do very much understand

1872
01:38:51,199 --> 01:38:54,479
that impulse to be like, hey, your Bible's kind of

1873
01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:58,399
fucking dumb. And I will even go so far as

1874
01:38:58,479 --> 01:39:01,159
to say I do think they're there are some appropriate

1875
01:39:01,199 --> 01:39:03,920
times and places to do that, and I think it

1876
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:05,920
takes I think it takes a lot of different methods,

1877
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:08,840
you know, to get to get all of us there. Man,

1878
01:39:08,880 --> 01:39:10,960
I know, I know You've got a ton more to say,

1879
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:13,640
and I'm so sorry that we didn't have more time

1880
01:39:13,720 --> 01:39:16,439
to chat and stuff. I'm gonna I'm gonna drop you

1881
01:39:17,119 --> 01:39:20,119
unceremoniously and unfortunately because I'm gonna I'm gonna bring in

1882
01:39:20,159 --> 01:39:23,079
our wonderful, wonderful backup hosts so that he can give

1883
01:39:23,119 --> 01:39:24,960
us some of his thoughts today. But Luke, thank you

1884
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:28,199
so much, and dude, seriously call us back. Man, let

1885
01:39:28,239 --> 01:39:30,680
us know how, let us know how the next conversation

1886
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:34,640
goes with the FAM, or if you find something out

1887
01:39:34,640 --> 01:39:37,319
there and we just got all this wrong and you're like, no, no, no,

1888
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:41,119
you don't understand. There was this study done in twenty nineteen, motherfuckers,

1889
01:39:41,319 --> 01:39:44,720
and this shit proves coming down hard on people and

1890
01:39:44,760 --> 01:39:47,920
making fun of their beliefs really changes their minds. That

1891
01:39:48,079 --> 01:39:50,920
may be the That absolutely may be the case. And

1892
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:52,960
if I am wrong, I am the first person to

1893
01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:57,159
tell you, Luke, I will absolutely directly apologize to you

1894
01:39:57,239 --> 01:39:59,359
for it, my brother, But yeah, give us.

1895
01:39:59,279 --> 01:40:01,039
Speaker 3: An up dat man, that would be impossible.

1896
01:40:01,239 --> 01:40:02,800
Speaker 7: I he did it.

1897
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:05,640
Speaker 2: He brought it back. He brought it back. No, seriously, though, Luke,

1898
01:40:05,680 --> 01:40:08,319
thank you so freaking much, dude. We really really appreciate it.

1899
01:40:08,359 --> 01:40:10,159
And please come hang out with us again in the

1900
01:40:10,159 --> 01:40:14,199
future man. And by the way, don't just hang out

1901
01:40:14,279 --> 01:40:19,600
here cross. Do you know that now on Sundays there

1902
01:40:19,680 --> 01:40:23,720
is this like powerhouse block of atheist content that you

1903
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:27,960
can find from the ACA. It just goes from like

1904
01:40:28,119 --> 01:40:31,560
one pm Central to six pm Central. There is just

1905
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:38,119
you know, we now have the beloved show from the

1906
01:40:38,159 --> 01:40:43,359
AEAN Truth Wanted is now in between the amazing Talk

1907
01:40:43,439 --> 01:40:46,199
Heathen and this awesome show. I just think that is

1908
01:40:46,279 --> 01:40:47,399
super duper cool man.

1909
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:50,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys, I found out about that recently and

1910
01:40:50,600 --> 01:40:53,560
my first thought was our poor crew.

1911
01:40:54,239 --> 01:40:58,520
Speaker 2: I know, I know, guys, send your super chats, Please

1912
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:01,119
send us some love to the crew. They need it.

1913
01:41:01,359 --> 01:41:04,720
They need some water bottles, they need some food. Somebody

1914
01:41:04,840 --> 01:41:07,159
just to just to pat him on the back and

1915
01:41:07,199 --> 01:41:09,720
say you got this. Just another two hours because s

1916
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:11,920
R is on and he never shuts the fuck up,

1917
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:15,520
but you can do this. But before we get out

1918
01:41:15,520 --> 01:41:19,359
of here, absolutely, let us bring that wonderful, wonderful backup

1919
01:41:19,399 --> 01:41:24,359
host today areas Jamie the Blind line is pack what

1920
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:26,439
is up, dude? What did you think of? What did

1921
01:41:26,479 --> 01:41:28,279
you think? We were some jobs today?

1922
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:33,079
Speaker 8: I have complicated feelings about the cause that we had today.

1923
01:41:33,760 --> 01:41:42,000
Kelly made me incredibly sad. I understand where she's coming from,

1924
01:41:42,079 --> 01:41:45,800
I feel, I mean, I can only empathize as much

1925
01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:48,520
as I can because it sounds like she's gone through

1926
01:41:49,159 --> 01:41:54,079
a lot in her life. And when you have faced

1927
01:41:54,159 --> 01:42:01,279
that much trauma, comfort becomes more important than truth. And

1928
01:42:01,359 --> 01:42:04,600
I think that one of the reasons why I fight

1929
01:42:04,720 --> 01:42:09,399
so vehemently against the indoctrination of religion is that they

1930
01:42:09,439 --> 01:42:15,720
prey on that vulnerability, that need to have something to

1931
01:42:15,800 --> 01:42:18,640
make it, make it make sense, to make it, to

1932
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:23,159
give hope. The problem is is that it's a it's

1933
01:42:23,159 --> 01:42:26,960
a false hope, it's a it's a limited hope. It's

1934
01:42:26,960 --> 01:42:29,920
a hope that's on borrowed time. Because if you unless

1935
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:33,680
you can really keep up that cognitive dissonance all the

1936
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:37,239
way through your life, you're going to be seeing hardship

1937
01:42:37,279 --> 01:42:42,920
after hardship, horror after horror, denigration after denigration, and you

1938
01:42:43,039 --> 01:42:46,119
will not see relief or justice. You will see on

1939
01:42:46,239 --> 01:42:51,640
fairness and chaos and terror. And I mean, I'm almost

1940
01:42:52,159 --> 01:42:57,640
I'm almost not prayer, and I'm almost admiring of people

1941
01:42:58,199 --> 01:43:02,359
who can hold their faith in those circumstances, because holy shit,

1942
01:43:02,479 --> 01:43:05,840
the mental gymnastics. That's gold medals across the board. Nine

1943
01:43:05,880 --> 01:43:11,079
point nine from the British judge. And then Luke. I've

1944
01:43:11,079 --> 01:43:15,520
spoken to Luke before I would. I'm going to give

1945
01:43:15,560 --> 01:43:18,319
him the benefit of the doubt that his intentions are good.

1946
01:43:18,600 --> 01:43:23,199
He sounds quite young, and I'm speaking from a place

1947
01:43:23,239 --> 01:43:26,399
of experience here that I was one of the reasons

1948
01:43:26,399 --> 01:43:31,520
why and again not to attack someone who's not not

1949
01:43:31,560 --> 01:43:33,720
currently here to defend themselves, and this isn't really an attack.

1950
01:43:34,079 --> 01:43:37,319
I do get slightly annoyed by that kind of standpoint,

1951
01:43:38,159 --> 01:43:42,199
mainly because he is me twenty five years ago. He

1952
01:43:42,319 --> 01:43:45,439
is me as a younger dumbo man. He thought he'd

1953
01:43:45,439 --> 01:43:50,520
got it all figured out so clever, calling calling religious

1954
01:43:50,560 --> 01:43:53,760
people stupid or even worse crazy like oh my goodness.

1955
01:43:55,119 --> 01:43:58,760
And so while I can, I can absolutely understand that

1956
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:01,239
it's very tempting an extra me cathartic to just want

1957
01:44:01,279 --> 01:44:04,960
to have a sort of intellectual punch up with a fist,

1958
01:44:06,439 --> 01:44:08,439
and it's very cathartic. I found a lot of comfort

1959
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:10,399
in it back during the COVID days when I first

1960
01:44:10,399 --> 01:44:17,119
started getting into this whole atheist atheist malarkey. But this

1961
01:44:17,279 --> 01:44:20,680
is something and actually my housemate helped me get to

1962
01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:21,880
this point when I was having a bit of a

1963
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:24,600
crisis of confidence about a year ago about why we

1964
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:29,359
do what we do here. The mission is bigger than

1965
01:44:29,439 --> 01:44:33,199
the man. Whenever you engage in a conversation, and this

1966
01:44:33,359 --> 01:44:37,680
is a furtherance of Graham's point here across the Gadman's

1967
01:44:37,680 --> 01:44:43,840
point that examine why you're having this conversation, what is

1968
01:44:43,840 --> 01:44:46,920
the objective, Because if it's just to make yourself sound

1969
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:49,800
clever or feel better or get one over on someone,

1970
01:44:50,479 --> 01:44:54,560
that is not a conversation. That is essentially bully. And

1971
01:44:54,640 --> 01:44:57,720
unless that person has come at you first. I'm not

1972
01:44:57,760 --> 01:45:02,520
saying you should be completely capitulatingmpletely soft gloves, right, but

1973
01:45:02,640 --> 01:45:06,680
if you're engaging from the jump like that, you're not

1974
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:09,680
going to have a very productive conversation. That to say,

1975
01:45:10,119 --> 01:45:12,800
if someone's saying I believe in God and that means

1976
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:15,520
that women shouldn't vote, and slavery is good, and I

1977
01:45:15,560 --> 01:45:19,319
think that we should repeal the nineteenth Amendment and the

1978
01:45:19,880 --> 01:45:26,520
fourteenth Amendment and the first Amendment. Then yeah, have at

1979
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:31,039
them all guns blazing uss Iowa, taking the top off

1980
01:45:31,039 --> 01:45:35,319
a mountain styly temper temper. But until that point, until

1981
01:45:35,359 --> 01:45:40,159
you're matching their energy, keep the sword in the sheath,

1982
01:45:40,359 --> 01:45:44,119
you know, be the bigger man, and only engage in

1983
01:45:44,159 --> 01:45:49,319
those more sort of ascurbic tactics when it is warranted.

1984
01:45:50,720 --> 01:45:59,960
Speaker 2: I think that is absolutely one of the indicators for knowledge, maturity, compassion,

1985
01:46:00,039 --> 01:46:02,880
and I think all those good things. You know, there

1986
01:46:02,920 --> 01:46:06,439
are times when it is right to be a little

1987
01:46:06,479 --> 01:46:09,840
bit more terse with people, a little bit more cross

1988
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:12,960
with people. You know this, you know this ce and

1989
01:46:13,880 --> 01:46:17,439
and there are times when we should be more compassionate.

1990
01:46:17,680 --> 01:46:22,760
And yeah, we shouldn't try to take advantage or bully

1991
01:46:22,840 --> 01:46:26,560
or beat down or anything. I just think that we

1992
01:46:26,640 --> 01:46:31,119
will never get to that highest mountain top of morality

1993
01:46:31,159 --> 01:46:33,560
that way. I just don't. I just don't think. So

1994
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:37,640
that doesn't mean that we let atrocious behavior go by.

1995
01:46:37,840 --> 01:46:41,079
You know, we've been talking about it this whole freaking episode,

1996
01:46:41,119 --> 01:46:44,800
and there are you know, twenty six freaking awesome year.

1997
01:46:45,039 --> 01:46:46,800
Even more, now, what are we at, like thirty is

1998
01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:47,800
it thirty years now?

1999
01:46:47,840 --> 01:46:49,760
Speaker 3: Is that where we're at? I think it's high twenties,

2000
01:46:49,760 --> 01:46:50,720
if not at.

2001
01:46:50,680 --> 01:46:53,960
Speaker 2: Least okay, And there is dozens and dozens of times

2002
01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:57,560
that that we do that, and many people have. We

2003
01:46:57,680 --> 01:46:59,880
just always have to keep pushing for it and correct

2004
01:47:00,119 --> 01:47:03,720
ourselves and making sure that we're we're doing the right things.

2005
01:47:03,880 --> 01:47:07,479
But yeah, Jamie, we appreciate you hanging out with us

2006
01:47:07,560 --> 01:47:10,079
and making sure that we're we're all safe and good

2007
01:47:10,119 --> 01:47:13,000
to go. And and I love getting to talk with you, man.

2008
01:47:13,039 --> 01:47:16,439
I want to actually actually they told me the date

2009
01:47:16,479 --> 01:47:17,239
to the back cruise.

2010
01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:19,199
Speaker 3: No, they said you couldn't tell them.

2011
01:47:19,359 --> 01:47:22,800
Speaker 2: No, I feel like I can say something about hang on,

2012
01:47:22,880 --> 01:47:25,199
not yet, not not yet, Okay, not yet, just hang on,

2013
01:47:25,319 --> 01:47:27,720
Just hang on, guys, I while I'm getting a message

2014
01:47:27,760 --> 01:47:29,840
from from the crew. Okay, let me I think I

2015
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:30,920
can announce I think they can.

2016
01:47:31,039 --> 01:47:35,119
Speaker 3: No, No, that there was okay, well sternly word.

2017
01:47:35,319 --> 01:47:37,479
Speaker 2: Well let me just let me just say this, folks,

2018
01:47:37,960 --> 01:47:40,319
thank you so much for being here. Come hang out

2019
01:47:40,399 --> 01:47:44,239
with us again. Four thirty pm Central Times on Sunday,

2020
01:47:44,560 --> 01:47:46,680
this awesome channel. You know, I I think I'm just

2021
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:50,640
gonna I'm just gonna do it. I'll do Look, Okay,

2022
01:47:50,800 --> 01:47:54,880
So I have been told that the dates of the

2023
01:47:54,920 --> 01:48:04,000
bat crew are going to be at watch talk Ethan

2024
01:48:04,079 --> 01:48:07,119
Lives Sundays at one pm Central. Visit tiny dot c

2025
01:48:07,359 --> 01:48:10,000
c slash y t t H and call into the

2026
01:48:10,039 --> 01:48:13,000
show at five one two nine nine one nine two

2027
01:48:13,119 --> 01:48:15,520
four two, or connect to the show online at tiny

2028
01:48:15,560 --> 01:48:17,720
dot c c slash call th H