Speaker 1: Several very senior US officials recently participated in an event
called Rededicate two fifty, which was billed as a harmless,
patriotic celebration, a rededication of our country as one nation
under God. But if you scratch beneath that glossy veneer,
what you actually find is a coordinated effort to hijack
American history and replace it with a false narrative of
Christian nationalism. So let's clear up exactly what Christian nationalism is,
because it gets conflated with everyday faith all the time.
Being a Christian who loves the United States is simple.
You practice your faith, you appreciate your country, and you
coexist within a secular legal framework that protects everyone's rights
to do the same. Christian nationalism is entirely different. It's
a political ideology, not a religious one. It insists that
the United States was founded exclusively as a Christian nation,
that our laws should be derived from the Bible, and
that Christians should hold a distinct, privileged status in government
and public life. When high ranking government officials show up
to an event like Rededicate two point fifty and lend
the weight of the state to that ideology, They aren't
just celebrating history, they're actively rewriting it. They are erasing
the Enlightenment principles of our actual founders, who explicitly wrote
a secular constitution to ensure that a citizen's religious beliefs
or lack thereof, would never dictate their standing in society.
Christian nationalism is a direct threat to the separation of
church and state, and it is the fastest way to
turn non Christians, agnostics, atheists into second class citizens. We've
got the phone lines open and we want to hear
from you. If you think the US is a Christian nation,
or if you think Christian nationalism is exactly what this
country needs, call in and let's talk about it, because
the show starts now.
Speaker 2: Hey, welcome everybody. Today is May thirty first, twenty twenty six,
and we want to welcome everybody to another episode of
the Atheist Experience. Can we put this in post? Can
we put this? Can we have can we have like? Yeah,
they'll do it, guys, they'll do it. I'm your host Secularity.
Joining me right now is cross Examiner. What is up, man?
Speaker 3: Hey? Not much longtime, no c How you doing.
Speaker 2: Oh I'm good man. It's been been a lot of
things going on. I was reading these these announcements before
the show, and it I saw that today as May
thirty first, and I went, oh, my gosh, really okay, yeah,
that's uh, that's great to know. That's great news. I
could have sworn we were still in April, but I
apparently not. So. Yeah. How about you, man, what how
you been, What you've been up to? What what you
watching all this Christian nationally weird stuff going on?
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, sure I am.
Speaker 1: I've been brushing up on my pulp fiction to make
sure I'm up on the latest scripture, and I've been
trying to make sure that every war we fight is
a religiously justified war so that the world recognizes how
good we are. And then, you know, as long as
we keep trying to put the Bible on you know,
elementary school kids across the country, I think we'll be
landing it just right, hitting home run.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. They have been really fervent here in the
great state of Tennessee, very let's just say, progressive, very
open minded bastion in this wonderful country. So open minded,
of course, that they are requiring the Ten Commandments be
posted everywhere in our schools and our public schools next
to the other, the other founding documents from this culture,
because as we know, the Ten Commandments was one of
the most important documents of which, by the way, first off,
let me just I'm being facetious because obviously we're not
very happy about these things. We're just trying to laugh
so we don't cry, sad clown kind of thing, you know.
But I will just I will just point this out
just because I thought it was really silly in their
version that they are requiring schools to post there are
in fact actually eleven commandments because depending on you break
it up, yeah, and so it is going to be
a document that you know, while also yeah, the separation
of church and state thing, massive, massive problem, hugely not
a fan of that on a personal level here. But
also we'll be confusing our kids with matt. I just
want to throw that out there, like that's just that
makes us look.
Speaker 1: Bad, guys, absolutely absolutely, and this is not a new problem.
Years ago, decades ago, Louisiana tried to make the Bible
the official state book, and everybody that was all in
on wearing the you know, cross on their pin and
whatever doing the performative Christianity thing voted for it, but
it couldn't get out a committee because why nobody could
agree on which version of the Bible was the true
and right version, so they couldn't do it. That's the
same reason you have eleven commandments there, because you've got
the whole Catholic Protestant division, and it's it's it. If
it weren't so serious, it's hilarious.
Speaker 2: Right, that's the that's kind of the frustrating part of it.
Like the churches have currently, I mean, over the last
like ten to fifteen years, every major denomination of Christianity
has had a massive schism in one way or the other.
Largely it's been around LGBTQ issues and women's issues. You know,
A couple of them split because they don't want they
don't want gay pass. A couple of them split because
they don't want to marrying people that are queer. A
couple of them split because women aren't allowed to speak. Still,
like it's happening in real time in front of us,
and then they're turning right around that are just like
are just like nah man, one word of God, man
right here, this is it. We know it. It's truth.
It's fact, it's settled, no discussion, no confusion on our end,
and it's just like, man, I can't help but just
just call bullshit on that. I think we made it
far enough in I can say bullshits.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I will recommend. I've said it
before on the show. The single best joke in my
heart was written by Emo Phillips, and it's about this
particular issue. I'll just recommend everybody google Emo Phillips religious joke,
but it's the one you may have heard it where
the guy's jumping off about to jump off a bridge
comes up and says, wait, are you Christian down to
you know? Are you the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes
Region Council of eighteen seventy nine or twelve?
Speaker 3: And he picks one and the guy you know says, ah,
you're heretic.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That captures this so well, and again it's hilarious because
it's ridiculous. But what people don't get is there really
are churches like that. They really are like Northern Conservative
Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of seventeen Like screw the
eighteen twelve guys, We're the seventeenth. You know, like they
don't get the whole works versus faith, you know whatever.
Their schism is over right, And what I think the
what that always leads me to. I think that the
people miss that don't think deeply about this stuff.
Speaker 3: Not deeply, but they don't.
Speaker 1: They don't spend a lot of clock cycles thinking about this.
Speaker 3: Maybe they're on the fence about religion or whatever.
Speaker 1: But what this speaks to is, this is supposed to
be the user manual for the universe, right if you're
a human. This is supposed to be avoiding eternal damnation
or annihilation or separation for God or whatever whatever you
think hell is. And it's supposed to be a guidebook
to salvation, eternal happiness and all that stuff. And it's
supposedly written by a very powerful, all knowing God. One
would think after all of that, one could come up
with a delivery method that would make his intentions clear.
But this schis him throughout just Christianity, and not to
mention all the other religions seems to indicate likewise, And
I'm not sure how to reconcile those two things.
Speaker 2: What are your Yeah, it does it makes me feel
like that is the some would say exact scenario we
would experience in a existence that does not have this
type of deity. Yeah. I think that is really really
reminiscent of the thoughts that I have had when I
sit down and I you know, I write, I write,
I write, you know, screenplays in my spare time, and
I sit down and I think to myself, you know,
what would a world look like if there wasn't an
all powerful, all knowing deity that was actively intent on
torturing us for eternity, if we don't bend our knee
and praise him, And it turns out a lot like this.
You know, it turns out it's really really similar. You
still have almost yeah, it's almost identical.
Speaker 1: You have very you have kids dying of councer, you
have ten thousand children starving to death every day, which
is true, look it up.
Speaker 3: Correct.
Speaker 1: And you have amputees who pray, who are true, true
Christians trademark, and uh, we've never seen an amputee get
cured by prayer, but we've seen all sorts of uh,
you know, cancer that can go through voluntary normal remission
get cured.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it seems weird. It's weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure really yeah,
I could go ahead flip of a coin. I am
hoping that there will be some wonderful, wonderful people out
there that will explain it to us. Because folks, we
are try streaming tonight. That's t r I, not t
R Y, although we you know, we do try streaming
every so often, but we are try streaming out to
all you wonderful people. So we're gonna give a big,
big shout out to everybody hanging out with us on
both the tiktoks and the YouTube's mobiles. And if you
are watching us on TikTok tonight and you would like
to come up and talk to us, just request to join.
We will bring you up on stage. Only thing, we
just got to make sure you're eighteen years of age
before doing so, so we will do that. But I
am legally obligated because Ce is here and he always
makes sure we're dotting our eyes and crossing our t's,
I am legally obligated to tell you that The Atheist
Experience as a product of the Atheist Community of Austin,
a FIVEBLE one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the
propultion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation
of religion and government and what that means in part
for you wonderful folks out there that want to help
keep this awesome, awesome community going. You can give us
as many as many tax free donations as you would
like all throughout this wonderful year and following and know
that they will be going to a great cause and
some wonderful people having some good times. I actually saw
something not too super long ago that was going on
down at the ACA build and they were doing some
really cool things. Genetically modified Skeptic and the Antibot were
down there hanging out, have a good time chatting it
up with people making a difference in the world. It
was really cool. So yeah, if you're in the Austin area,
go go hit them up and check out a book,
rent a book. It is a library, it is Yeah.
Speaker 1: I went there for the back cruise last year. For
time I've ever been there. Is really pressed and I
want to make sure I understood you. There's no limit
as to the number of donations.
Speaker 3: Somebody.
Speaker 2: That is not a legal statement. I just want to
put that has no idea.
Speaker 1: I want to clarify for our users, because I think
our users may be confused.
Speaker 3: They can give us more money and nothing less.
Speaker 2: They can, In fact, you can start just just piling
the heaps of cash at their doorstep. I think you can.
You can send it to a PO box that they
might have.
Speaker 1: I don't do that.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 2: It's getting now, I'm already getting. I'm already getting messages
from the crew. They're very upset already or just a
few minutes.
Speaker 3: And to clarify, we don't make a dime right.
Speaker 2: That.
Speaker 3: No, I don't eat sweet super chat money.
Speaker 2: Yeah no, no, no, the the a C would be
working much better in my in this in this facility
at the moment. But yeah, we are volunteers. This is
all volunteer run and lead. There's so many wonderful people
that do help make this happen. But I am not
gonna talk about those great people just yet, because I
see we've got some calls and I think we're gonna
have some good talks already, So let's jump right into it.
We are going to go to Minnesota. We're going to
talk with Kelly. She her pronouns as a fist and
just wants to talk about God. So I mean that
is that is kind of what we're here for. Kelly,
What uh, what are you interested in talking about when
it comes to God?
Speaker 5: I was kind of open to any subjectives that you
were interested in talking about.
Speaker 3: Cool.
Speaker 2: That's great, that's a great thank you.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a fantastic start. I mean, we love, we
love for callers to have their favorite topic or whatever.
But I love that as a starting place too, Kelly,
because you know, a lot of times when I have
these conversations, it's a It's been said a billion times
by a billion people. I wasn't the first one to
say it. But you know what, well, God are you
talking about? Give me? Give me just a general description.
I don't need every single detail, but like, is it
something you picked up from some Hinduist stuff? Is it
something you picked up from some Christian stuff? Is it
kind of your own thing? What's a what's a general
boundary line for this God we're talking about?
Speaker 5: I suppose I'm I consider myself Christian, but a lot
of Christians would probably label me a heretic.
Speaker 3: That's not uncommon.
Speaker 1: You were just talking about that in the in the
in the in the banter.
Speaker 3: Yeh, yes, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 5: Sorry, Oh that's okay. So basically I believe in Jesus,
but he provided a summary of the Torah, which was
due unto others, as you'd have him do unto you.
So I when I look at the Bible, I consider
its errants because it likely passed through the hands of
Romans and Babylonians and other slave owners that had a
tendency of altering religions to fit their corruptions. Yeah, so
everything that matches that summary I am compatible with. So
by if I passed through some areas of the Bible
where it's like, what's the like, was that I like,
slavery is permission?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, that whole that whole portion, that whole murdering
of a bunch of people kind of willy nilly and stuff. Yeah, yeah,
we can. I think I think Ce and I are
are happy to kind of throw that stuff aside. You know,
we could, we could ask you questions and kind of
poke at you, Kelly and be like, you know, well
why do you pick and choose and blah blah blah.
But I'm not really even worried about that. The the
kind of part that I want to go to about, like,
you know, some of jesus teachings and the summary, you know,
kind of the Torah kind of get in some gist
of it and whatnot. Do you do you view this
in your life as more of like like something that
just kind of guides you and your behavior. Do you
do you think like there was this guy, a physical
person named Jesus, and like he was buried in this tomb,
he rose like they were like about a dozen people
hanging out with him telling his stories. Like do you
come at it from that perspective? Or is this more
just like, hey, these are kind of general principles that
make me feel good and help me try to be
a good person.
Speaker 5: Well, I do believe the actual Jesus person existed. I
do believe he's one with the God of the universe.
Speaker 7: And what.
Speaker 3: Good question?
Speaker 1: What does that mean? That Jesus is one with the
God of the universe? I just, I honestly don't understand
what that means.
Speaker 5: What it means, Well, what does it mean that they're one?
Speaker 7: Oh?
Speaker 5: Well, it could mean that a great closeness or it
could mean that they're the same person.
Speaker 1: Where well, let me let me let yeah, let me
rephrase it. What do you mean when you said you
believe they are one. So do you mean, well, Jesus,
the human that allegedly walked around on earth was a
god that had godly powers or do you mean like
he was aware of God at a very intimate level
or where do you come in?
Speaker 5: I suppose I am at that they're equal, that's that
they're the same somehow.
Speaker 3: And why do you believe that?
Speaker 7: Well?
Speaker 5: I had nd SO and it involved Jesus, and it
was very intense, and I can't deny it. I think
everybody is going to have a near death experience, you know,
when it's the time, and I think they're all going
to meet him.
Speaker 2: Do you think that if I'm if I'm hearing, you're right,
you're saying that you know, before or this NDE, you
would probably be somebody like you know myself or or
cross here, and you would say you didn't believe in
Jesus as as the son of God, as one with
the God of the universe. You didn't believe, you know,
the New Testament was like literal history or anything, and
then you had this experience and then you started believing
in that? Is that? Is that what I'm understanding the story?
Speaker 5: Well, I was kind of in a Really, I was
still a Christian at the time, but I was in
a place I was reading Martin Luther King Junior's Excues
at that time in my life. I was I was
reading the book I'm Not Getting Midnights, and that's when
it all happened. So I was still a believer, but
I had a lot of questions, and I think I
made most of the Christians around me like kind of
like they just didn't feel comfortable with my questions or something.
Speaker 2: Sure, sure, let me let me jump in again real quick,
and then I want to give it over to Cross
for a little bit and I'll shut the heck up.
Do you think your story right would be more or
less impressive if you didn't believe in Jesus as one
with God before that experience, before that NDE Kelly, if
you absolutely did not believe, not that you hated him,
not that you thought he was a bad person and
there was some weird things in the Bible or anything,
but that you genuinely, just like you don't believe Mohammed
was the prophet from Allah. You genuinely did not believe.
Then you had the NDE. Then you started wholly believing
do you think that story would be more or less
impressive to yourself and others?
Speaker 5: I would, I guess for me, I would think of
it as equal, because here's an ex experience that I
can't repeat for you scientifically. I can't show you what
I saw. I can't put you through what I went
through at this time.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 5: I think a lot of atheist I.
Speaker 3: Think.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, sorry to cut you off. I do. I
do want to throw it over to Cross. I I
think it would be more impressive if you didn't believe
before having the experience, Like I've never believed in the
god Shiva. I've never really studied the the that that
particular deity if all of a sudden, out of nowhere,
I had some intense personal experience that led me to
being one hundred percent convinced in the existence of Shiva.
I think that's more impressive than me becoming a Methodist
again because I was raised with Methodism. But that's just
my that's just my view on it. But let me
let me, let's let's get Cross in on here. I
know he's got I know he's got some good questions.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so yeah, I really appreciate you sharing your
story with us, Kelly, I think what I'd like to
point out because I think, like a lot of people
that you know, have watched the show, I was a
fan of this show for many, many, many years before
I started coming on. The question that always I found
most interesting was not the what do you believe? But
the why do you believe it?
Speaker 3: Question?
Speaker 1: And that's why I asked. What I did is like,
why are you convinced about this? And the answer you
gave to why I believe was I had this NDE.
And then we said okay, so you didn't believe before
the NDE and you said, well, no, I was still
a Christian, which in my book means you believe that
Jesus was a divine being of some sort, maybe slightly different.
So when I asked you why you believe, you said NDE.
And then we say, okay, we learned a little later on,
well you believe beforehand. So is it just that this
NDA made you more convinced, more certain? Is that how
we should take that?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I already believe. I guess there was a scripture
that always stood out to me that I really like
clung onto that drew me to Christianity. And that was
greater love, and no one than this untilate your lifetime
for your friends.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there there's I mean, my gift is my
song and this one's for you. This quote Elton John
like I'm being a little I'm having a little fun here,
like anybody can write some pretty words. But that's that's
not I'm assuming that one sentence is not Why you
were convinced that Jesus Christ was a man and that
he was the son of God and that he performed miracles?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: Why?
Speaker 5: I guess I was just encouraged a lot to have
faith even though I couldn't see. I actually didn't expect
to ever see Jesus before I was actually dead. I
did not believe that you could. I didn't think that
was possible. I thought that.
Speaker 3: I didn't either let me ask you something.
Speaker 1: Then, so you're your logic seems to be I suspected
or strongly suspected that there was a person that is Jesus,
and that person is equated somehow with God performing miracles,
creating the nurse, whatever part you want, that's sort of
a mystical part. But then I had this nd experience,
and that is what really convinced me. I want to
make sure I understand that that's your position before I
ask you any more questions.
Speaker 3: Is that is that sort of Do I have I
summarized you fairly?
Speaker 5: I think so, because Yeah, I was drawn by some
of the verses in the Bible. I chose to believe
without a lot of evidence initially.
Speaker 3: Did you?
Speaker 1: I want to stop right there, because that's an interesting sentence.
I don't often hear people saying I chose to believe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a very.
Speaker 2: Especially especially with adding on Kelly, and I'm not I'm
not like making fun of you, for sure, but especially
with adding on, like, with not a lot of evidence.
So that's that's really I I think that's that's really
awesome that you said that. So, yeah, please please answer
what Cross said.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So my question about that is, normally people
become convinced, right, it's not something you choose to do.
You gather evidence, you know, seculararity here tells me that
he ate a tuna fish sandwich for lunch. I've previously
experienced tuna fish sandwiches.
Speaker 3: I know that people eat them. I know that there's
this thing called lunch.
Speaker 1: I've got a bunch of evidence, and I and I
become convinced because I know secularity and he has a
history with me of being honest. This summary of my
experience convinces me that it's true. Is that not what happened?
In your case? You actively like didn't believe, and you
just said I'm choosing to believe.
Speaker 3: Is that what happened? Or did you become convinced? Well?
Speaker 5: Like when I speak with atheists about my faith, like
I at the time before my experience, I would say.
Speaker 4: That I didn't have evidence for them.
Speaker 3: I didn't.
Speaker 5: I didn't have evidence. I just really connected with the
ethics that I could find in the Bible. I couldn't
find all the ethics everywhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But so your logic then was I find good
ethics here, therefore I will accept the supernatural cranes that
come along with it. Again, I'm not attacking your position.
I'm just I'm just trying to come to an understanding
before I actually ask my questions. So I like the ethics,
I like the sentiments love thy neighbor, and those things
you've quoted. Therefore I became convinced of the supernatural. Whether
or not that was good logic or not, but that
was that was the route you took.
Speaker 3: Am I understanding you correctly?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 5: And I also encounter the teleological arguments and entropy, sure.
Speaker 1: And those were more even more, you know, moved you
further on the line towards from doubt or uncertainty to certainty.
And then you had this NDE experience, and that pushed
you pretty far along that path towards even greater certainty.
Speaker 3: So this is my question.
Speaker 1: Then, do you do you think that anyone who experiences
anything during an NDA ND is reasonable for accepting what
they experience as being true. For example, I have an
ND and I experience something that tells me that dinosaurs
are roaming the earth today and making tuna fish sandwiches.
For secular rarity, If I experience that, should I accept
that as true?
Speaker 3: Like, I'm convinced maybe.
Speaker 5: A possibility, but as an outsider, I can see why
it would be rejected or just thought of as a possibility.
Speaker 3: Let's make it something reasonable. I have an ND.
Speaker 1: IT and I experience that the lottery ticket numbers will
be for the daily triple will be seven eight nine.
I go run seven eight nine and I hit the lottery.
Should I believe that I saw the future?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 5: Like if you actually had results in one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that if I had an NDE and I visioned
myself picking the triple pick seven eight nine, I go
and play those numbers and I won. Does that mean
that I saw the future, that I had some sort
of mystical otherworldly experience.
Speaker 5: Well it would be a possibility still. But you could
have just made up the story after the fact and.
Speaker 4: Said I had a dream of these numbers.
Speaker 1: Why I'm giving you the credit of the truth, the
benefit of the doubt. I'm a believing that you saw
and talked with or however experience a very strong connection
with Jesus.
Speaker 3: But let me get to the point.
Speaker 1: The point is when you're having an NDE, by definition,
your brain is under like a tremendous amount of stress,
usually involving oxygen deprivation, and you can have all sorts
of weird experiences when you're having an NDE, when you're
on drugs, when you've had physical trauma to your brain,
there's all sorts of things. When I know that brain
is under stress of that level, I become less convinced
of the accuracy of what that brain is experiencing that
rather than more convinced. So my question to you ultimately,
is shouldn't the fact that it was an ND make
you skeptical of its accuracy and not more convinced.
Speaker 5: Well, it's merciful that it was ND, because if I
had just said a vision and I talk to people
about it, then they would, you know, lock you up.
Speaker 2: Why do you think why do you think that is? Like,
I know you're being I know you're being a little
a little silly there with that, Kelly, And I appreciate that.
I appreciate, you know, good humor and stuff. I know,
Cross does it as well. You know, these are really
they're they're really difficult, you know, and dense subjects sometimes
and it's it's nice to be able to just be
a little playful with them. You know. Why why do
you think that that is the case? You know, like,
why why do you think that it's just kind of
something that's so commonplace to you that like, hey, if
I told everybody I was just walking outside and just
had this vision, they'd think, Wow, that's that's crazy. Why
do you think that is?
Speaker 5: Why do you think that's the case? Why people why
maybe you're concerned that you're seeing something that they didn't see,
and you know, they would be concerned, they would be
doing it out of concerns.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me let me let me offer a little
bit more on that. It concerned because, like you said,
they're not seeing the thing that we're seeing, and we
we have really good solid proof to indicate that like
that can happen to us as people like it is
possible that that Ceas is just seeing this dinosaur in
my kitchen making this tuna sandwich, but in fact it's
it's me, you know, or or nobody's standing there like
that that happens, right.
Speaker 5: Well, the thing is too and that sometimes we have
a personal experience that is true, but there's no way
to you know, share it with others so that they
believe you that it happened to you. Like I was assaulted, Yeah,
and I was unable to prove it, but I know
I know that it happened the person who assaulted me
unless they have memory issues, they know what happened, right,
They're not going.
Speaker 2: To but it is fairness again, in fairness, back to
what Cross was talking about with the dinosaur, the sandwich
making dinosaurs, Like, we do know that tuna sandwiches exist.
We absolutely know in this country that overwhelmingly you know,
these crimes are not taken, you know, seriously, there's a
backlog of how many dozens of cases at precincts and stuff,
you know, and and just throwing this out there, the
current administration is not is it's like defunding all these things.
That's a side point that has nothing to do with
this organization or my thoughts or anything. The point is,
we have really good reason to accept that all these
other things exist except for a couple of these key points. Right,
we don't have anything to prove the existence ever of
sandwich making dinosaurs, and we don't seem to have proof
of like anybody ever resurrecting and coming to people in
in visions or NDEs, Right, Like, isn't that the isn't
that the thing that's dissimilar about these different stories?
Speaker 1: In fact, we have the opposite. Have you ever heard
of a book called Heaven Is for Real?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 3: So it's about a boy who.
Speaker 1: Was four years old who had an NDE, went to Heaven,
met Jesus and came back and talked about it, had
knowledge that he couldn't have possibly known. Bestseller made into
a movie starring Greg kinnear best, you know, made a
bunch of money. Boy grows up and then reveals never happened,
the whole thing.
Speaker 3: The whole thing.
Speaker 5: I thought he didn't. He just say parts of it
weren't true or something.
Speaker 3: I think you missed my point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the core, the core thing is this didn't happen.
Speaker 3: So we have evidence of people.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying you're claiming this, Okay, I want
to make that clear, but we have What my point
was is, not only do we not have evidence of
you know, why doesn't God heal amputees? Why doesn't God
resurrect people once we have cameras?
Speaker 3: We have the opposite.
Speaker 1: We have tons of cases of people claiming NDEs and
being debunked later, either through self recantation or through experts
coming in and debunking stories. So it doesn't seem to
be a good reason to believe somebody else's story. And
then when you examine what's happening during an NDE, which
is your brain's losing oxygen or it's got some drug
issues or whatever, it means your brain is unreliable. And
I told the story on the show before I am
a cancer survivor. I went through I was stage four,
I went through a massive surgery fifteen hours in the
intense what you call it, ice you for two or.
Speaker 3: Three days, during which which.
Speaker 1: The nurse was trying to steal the property that was
stored under my bed and was giving me bad looks
and trying not to feed me. I eventually was able
to sort of tell my wife about this enough, in fact,
I think it was my wife of my dear friend,
and she went over.
Speaker 3: She was a doctor, and she went over and.
Speaker 1: Spoke to the attending physician who came in and said,
we put you on a new pain med because your
heart rate was too high. We did that about a
day and a half ago. We're taking you off because
you're having hallucinations. Within an hour of them changing my meds,
I realized that nurse was the nicest person in the world,
and I had been having these weird delusions. But I
would have sworn under oath at risk of going to
jail for violating that oath, that she had been mean,
was trying to steal my stuff, wasn't feeding me, etc.
I was absolutely convinced. And the problem was there was
a few milligrams of a certain foreign substance in my blood,
and it made my brain do wanky things. Now take
that and compare it to what happens when you're doing
an NDE. Doesn't that make your brain an unreliable filter
of reality at that moment?
Speaker 5: Well, I still consider it real and I know that,
like I just think when you cross that bridge and
the participant observation of death, that you're going to see
the same thing then that.
Speaker 3: I did, is there? Why do you believe that? Sorry? Yes, sorry?
But why question?
Speaker 6: Why?
Speaker 1: Given everything we just said, why do you still believe
that what you experienced real? What? What other than your
brain telling you what it saw during the NDE? What
other thing is convincing you? If not, it may and
just maybe that it was so strong, it was so real.
I can't think anything other than it was real. What
Why do you believe that it's real?
Speaker 3: Knowing what you know about NDEs, well, even what you told.
Speaker 5: Me about hallucinating with your situation, I still think that
as a possibility there was uh cruel nurse I.
Speaker 7: Didn't well, possibility.
Speaker 1: Then I have to say, and I don't mean this
in the traditionally very negative way, but you know the
word gullible is just an observation that means you believe
you were willingly believing things with insufficient evidence. Right, I
am the person who observed and experienced that. I'm telling
you that I not only did I come off those
drugs and realize I was wrong, but I told you
that I was, you know, high on this pain med
which is known to induce hallucinations at the time. Now
and you know, and and you're still willing to believe
that it was true. It sounds like that old uh show,
Uh what was it?
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 1: The X Files where Moulder would always say his poster said,
I want to believe. It sounds to me like you
want to believe. It's not that you're waiting to become
convinced by evidence. Sorry, sorry, I know you had a
comment to.
Speaker 2: No, no, No, that was that was great. That was great.
And honestly, Kelly, like we really really appreciate you just
just being real with us. There's a lot of times
when people call in and they want to they want
to you know, obfus gate on purpose and stuff, and
it doesn't feel like that's where you're coming from. It
feels like you're just being you know, super genuine with
us and just kind of let letting the conversation go,
which is which is what myself and Cross really want,
you know, we want to understand where you're coming from,
and we don't want to misrepresent you or anything, and
we don't we don't want to be mean or talk
down to you, you know it. It does seem to
me like there's a little bit of a problem with
with the types of things that you accept as as
being true or or reasons to accept these things is true.
Because one thing that I've noticed is that when we've
talked about these different scenarios that that are similar in
a good, you know, in very important ways about the
hallucinations you know, uh, visions, indease, these types of things
people coming to those conclusions and having those experience, You've
you've repeatedly said that it's a possibility that it could
be true, but with your experience, it is true. And
I guess I'm wondering what was it about? What is
it about these different scenarios that make your situation totally
absolutely true or at least like to the point that
you know, you accept it, you know, versus these other scenarios,
like you know, again, Cross was telling you about this
NDE had where dinosaurs are making sandwiches for me why
is that only a possibility that that's true, but your
your experience, like is for sure true?
Speaker 7: Well, I.
Speaker 5: Went through it firsthand. I actually participated in the experience myself.
It's kind of like that assault that you can't prove.
But when when you're you're familiar with participant observation.
Speaker 2: Correct a little bit. I'm not an expert in anything.
Speaker 5: But it's in cultural anthropology, and the thing is like,
it's a part of science where you can experience something firsthand.
I'm not trying to rush you do not, You've got
to wait your turn. But when you get there.
Speaker 4: To that point where you're dying.
Speaker 2: Like.
Speaker 5: It's that bridge is just different when you're on it
versus being told about being.
Speaker 4: Someone doing that bridge.
Speaker 2: Do you think do you think that, for instance, I'm
very lucky to know a bunch of different people coming
from a lot of different religious backgrounds. Do you feel
that the weight of the Muslim uh telling me that, well,
when I get close to reaching Mohammed and the Great Allah,
you know, then I'll experience it and that'll really change
my mind. Do you feel like that is on the
same level as what you're saying or or less than
Is it more impactful. Is it more? Are they more correct?
So this guy, this guy, a guy I know asif,
had a vision. He had a He had an NDE
very similar to yours. This was like a dozen years ago.
It told him that he would travel to this far
off land. He didn't understand at the time, but it
it seemed to have a bunch of squiggly letters and
it started with a big capital T. I don't know
if you're familiar with the spelling of Tennessee, but that
that's pretty pretty on the nose there. And he he
had this vision that he was going to be around gladiators,
you know, these these huge, huge individual giants, you know.
But they were covered in you know, head to toe
in this armor, you know. But the armor was bright,
bright blue, and they were they were fighting all around
and they were having this intense battle. And it was
in that moment that he would experience Mohammed. And he
came to the Great State of Tennessee and he got
invited out one night to a Tennessee Titans football game.
And as he is standing there watching these gladiators battle,
he has this vision of Mohammed telling him that he's
on the right path and that he just needs to continue,
you know, obeying all those rules. Is his experience on
par with your experience? And is he right when he
tells me, I'll get to that bridge and I'll see that,
or are you right?
Speaker 5: Well? I have looked at the Quran a little bit
in my life, but I've spent more time with the Bible. Sure,
But what I've found disturbing about the Quran is, well,
in the Muslim faith, I can think it's in the
hadiths lisay that Ayisha was six years old.
Speaker 2: Those are corrupt passages, Those are those are those are
passages that were written you know, by interpretation, you know,
written down from different scribes and stuff. You know, just
like the just like the slavery and the Old test An. Right,
we agreed on that. We just throw that part out.
We just put that part to the side. We don't
need it anymore, and we just talk about the the
for instance, in in the Quran it says, I forget
the I forget the suru right now, but it says
that taking the life of a single innocent person is
like killing the whole world. We just all we do, Kelly,
is we take that bit right there, We talk about
the ethics of it. You know, I mean, asief sounds
right to me. He sounds like, I mean, it sounds
like you. And here at least on par right.
Speaker 5: Well, the other issue I take with.
Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, hold on, I'm going to play
referee here for just a second. You're you're about to
do what is called what about ism? And I'm going
to really encourage you not to do that. This is
your brain trying to avoid the question that's sr just
asked you. He asked you whether or not his arguments
which are identical to yours, but come to a different conclusion,
i e. The Muslims have it right, not the Christians.
He's asking you. I'm the third party. I'm looking at
you saying you experienced this, and I'm looking at a
see if and he's saying he experienced this, and you
came to different conclusions. How do we know which is right?
That's really what he's asking, Right, Like, we could say,
well you're right, he's right, or it's not reliable information,
so nobody should make any conclusions based on this. And
what you said was, well, here's a problem I have
with Islam.
Speaker 3: Do you see how that's not responsive to his question?
Speaker 5: Well, I guess I don't fully understand because I'm one.
Speaker 1: Let me break it down for you. This is a
simpler version. I've had callers where I say, how do
you know that the Bible is true and not the.
Speaker 3: Quran?
Speaker 1: And they say, after some conversation, they'll say something along
the lines of faith, my faith tells me that this
is true. And I've had calls with people who say
the same thing about the Koran. I believe that the
Koran is true and not the Bible because of my faith,
And so that comes to this question of Okay, they
can't both be true true because they contain contradictions between
each other. To be saved, you have to accept Jesus
Christ as the final prophet and the only God. To
become saved, you have to believe in Allah, and there
were prophets after Jesus.
Speaker 3: Those both cannot be true.
Speaker 1: But I have people calling me and telling me things
like my faith tells me it's true, and that's why
I believe. So Sr's question boils down to how do
we tell who's right if everybody's telling us they're using
the same method. I had an end, I had a vision,
I had faith, and it led me to believe X,
and then somebody else says the same thing led me
to believe not X. Can you reconcile those two things
for us? That's the question, without going to why don't
like Islam? Because if you're just picking what you like,
then you should have just led with that and left
out the NDE. So why how can we reconcile you
and de sief telling us essentially the same methodology, coming
to the different conclusions.
Speaker 5: So in his vision, you said he was fighting some giants.
Speaker 1: Let's imagine we're simplifying it and we're not worried about
the details. We have somebody who says, my faith tells
me the Bible is true, and another person tells me
my faith tells me the Koran is true. How do
we somebody who didn't experience that faith? How do we
tell the difference between those two? Who's right?
Speaker 5: I don't trust I for an eyemantality?
Speaker 2: Why don't so?
Speaker 3: Let me let's let's pull that thread.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're using your own morality to judge which
book of morals to believe in?
Speaker 3: Is that correct?
Speaker 5: The morality existed long before I was born.
Speaker 1: I can't you have a judgment that says I for
ie is wrong, and we can ignore what the Bible
says about that in the Koran.
Speaker 3: All that, but you have this morality. I don't believe
in eye for eye.
Speaker 1: And if I understand your logic, your logic is the
Bible or the Koran could be true. I read the Koran.
It says eye for I. I personally don't agree with that.
Therefore the Bible is true. Am I understanding you correctly?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 5: I feel that this moral of doing away with eye
for an eye, Yeah, has been around longer than you all.
Speaker 3: No, No, I agree with sure. I'm just saying you
invented it.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying you have a yard stick you're using
right to measure how good a book is. And you've
used this yard stick and you've put the Quran up
against it, and you're like, this is ten units of good.
And you've put that yard stick up against the Bible.
And let's give you a like all the toys to
play with, this is a thousand units of good. In
my opinion, like what I've been taught to believe about good,
what I've the conclusions I've come up with, these old
sayings I've inherited through my culture, everything about morality leads
me to believe the Bible is a better guide of
morality than the Koran. Therefore, I'm a Christian, and I
believe that it was inspired by a God and all
of the supernatural claims in it are true. I just
want to understand that that's what you're doing.
Speaker 3: Is that correct?
Speaker 5: Well, I would say parts of the Bible because of
what we established earlier.
Speaker 3: Sure, sure, fairpoint, fairpoint. Okay.
Speaker 1: So if that's true, and this is sort of my
last bit on this, then one must ask where did
you get the yardstick?
Speaker 5: Where did I get the yardstick? Well, in my experience,
I was really I almost became a Hindu when I
was I think I was twenty and I almost became
a Hindu. I went to the Hindu temple, went inside,
and the reason was because I was very inspired by Gandhi.
Speaker 7: Mm hmm.
Speaker 5: And Gandhi said that she accepted Jesus. But he also said,
I for an eye makes.
Speaker 4: The whole world blind.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's a great line.
Speaker 2: True. True? Did did Gandhi? Did Gandhi say that Jesus
was divine? Did? Was Gandhi's opinion? As far as you
know that Jesus was one with the god of the universe.
Speaker 5: I don't know that any Hinduism does accept Jesus as
a god. But I don't know that Hinduism is pretty yeah.
Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, yeah, yeah, they do, they do. I guess
I guess really what what I was kind of getting.
Speaker 3: At there, Gandhi was not a Christian. Let's put yeah,
he was.
Speaker 2: He was definitely not right, right, That's kind of what
I was getting at, is that Gandhi was definitely not
what what tends to be considered you know, you know,
a Christian, right, And I guess in part what I'm
wondering is at that point point in your life, it
sounds like, you know, you're you're really looking into Hinduism,
you're really inspired by Gandhi. Again, it's it's it's really
measuring up to that that yardstick of morality that you've got.
Like like Cross was talking about, what was it, I mean,
was it this NDE that then made you come over
to you know, more of a Christian lens or or
did did you just suddenly learn some things about Hinduism
that didn't match up to your morality? Like what was
that kind of shift for you?
Speaker 5: Well, I noticed some disturbing things about Hinduism, and uh,
there are still some things I admire about Hinduism, but
I I the there are some gods in their religion
that are literally holding decapitated humans in their hands.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some. There's some I will gladly admit that
there is some things that is a little bit outside
of my noise as well. There's some wild wild There's
a really weird story. And I know Crew is gonna
hate me for mentioning this, but I'm just gonna do
it anyway. There was a time where one of the gods,
like his dick got cut off and turned giant and
like started destroying the whole world. So another god turned
herself into a giant vagina. It's very strange. Uh, if
you look up the Shiva Linga, it will explain all
of it. It's it's a little weird.
Speaker 3: But the point is, why an option for a movie.
Speaker 2: It's honestly be a really great movie, really weird. Why why, Kelly,
don't we just do the same thing that we've done
with the Old Testament and stuff. You know, there's this
whole there's this whole section about how you know, for instance,
you know, eye for an eye like that is part
of it. There is this whole thing about like beating humans,
like enslaving people. You know, there's there's a lot of
really there's a lot of really messed up stuff in
certain parts, and I'm with you, like, hey, we'll just
put those to the side, screw them. We can call
it interpretation, we can call it a scribes. You know,
they're they're trying to give a message to their small
group of people. It's not supposed to be universal. I'm
cool with all of that. Why couldn't we just say
the same thing about all the crappy stuff in Hinduism
and Islam, Like, why can't we just throw all those
away and then the rest of it be true?
Speaker 5: You know, oh, like sniffs through it for everything it's worth.
Speaker 2: Well, just simply say, just simply give it the same
give it the same exact shake that you gave Christianity,
which is, hey, yeah, there's some there's some shit in
here that's a little not smelling so great, but there's
all this other stuff that's that's pretty nice. And now
I believe that, why not do the same thing for
Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or Sikhism or Rastafari or Mormonism.
Speaker 5: Well, Allah is a word used in Judaism for God.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that. So there are there are
pretty particular claims right that that are definitely counter you know,
in some of these things. You know, for instance, just
just because I don't think we talk about it enough,
Rastafari Rastafari actually believes that it's one of the tenets
of the belief that the Emperor of Ethiopia Hailey SILESIAI
was the second coming of Jesus Christ, that that man,
that human being that was the ruler of the entire
place that we know of as Ethiopia at the time.
This was like back in the sixties or seventies whatever,
that that man was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Now,
that would not particularly vibe well with any of the Abrahamocs,
despite what they decide to call their God, which is
ja by the way, Ja as in like Jahweh or Jehovah.
Those types of like didn't exist that far back. So
it's again, it's it's the modern it's the modern understanding
of it, right, just like Jesus wasn't Jesus's name, but
that's what we've all been calling him. It was Yeshua
most likely, you know. But again, the same the same
thing is is presented as a problem. Here we have
competing claims that absolutely cannot work together. But it seems
like with the methodology that you've presented so far to us,
we would actually be on equal footing to accept any
of these as well. Right Like, Yeah, there's actually some
really fucked up in Rastafari, right Like, for instance, it's
incredibly homophobic and misogynistic, just as like part of the
tenets of the belief system, it is ingrained into the
theology that women and homosexual people are less than that's
really fucked up. But again, we just put that shit
aside and we just focus on the jaws, mighty jaws,
all powerful jaw's gonna be the protector of the of
the innocent and stuff. Why not why not be Rastafari
instead of Christian or Muslim or Hindu? What is so
special about this religion based on the methodology you've given
us today.
Speaker 5: Well, Jesus proved that the death penalty was unjust. He
proved that palable humans carrying out the death penalty is unjust.
Speaker 2: Was there nobody else before the time of Jesus that
talked about the abolition of the death penalty by the state.
Speaker 3: And is that really responsive to what SR asked?
Speaker 2: Not really?
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me let me, let me come in. Yeah,
let me try to reframe Sr's question. So we've talked
about the measuring stick. You've gone around with your measuring
stick to all of these different belief systems, and you
like what you find in the Bible the most, but
you admit you don't like it all. And I will say,
you even mentioned, Hey, the Torah really is the core stuff.
You need to realize there's a lot of bad stuff
in the Torah as well.
Speaker 5: Okay, well I agree, I'm thinking both Old Testament and
New Testament.
Speaker 3: Okay, fair enough. Good. So you've got your measuring stick.
Speaker 1: My interest has gone from where did you get the
measuring stick? Like you have to you have to question
yourself and say, why do I think?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: I look at the Bible and I say, I see it,
say be nice to people. I see it, say, uh,
you know, Jesus says not, you know, shun not the
children bring them to me, and I will heal, like,
that's good. You know all these nice things, But why
do I think they're good. That's what I mean when
I ask where did you get the measuring stick? Because
you can't say the Bible tells me what's good, and
I know that the Bible's good because the Bible says
it's good.
Speaker 3: That would be what we call a circular argument.
Speaker 1: So it seems to me you're using some x, some judgment,
some yardstick that's outside of the Bible to determine that
the Bible is closest match to a philosophy that you
want to hold, and since it is the closest match
to your yardstick, that's the one you're going with. That's
what I'm understanding, And I have two questions. One is
that a good way of doing it?
Speaker 3: And two?
Speaker 1: Why not just use your yardstick? Why the need for
a supernatural layer on it? Why is it not enough
to just say I am bringing to the table all
of these moral understandings of the world that were given
to me by my parents that I've developed over time,
as I've lived through this world and experienced fairness and unfairness,
as I've read the news, as I've seen things happen,
I've developed this sense of right and wrong.
Speaker 3: You seem to presume.
Speaker 1: That you need to then apply that to this choice
and say, well, therefore, the sense I have is most
in line with Christianity. Therefore I'm going to accept Christianity
the majority of it, including its supernatural claims, as true.
Speaker 3: Why do you need to do that?
Speaker 1: Why can't you just accept that you are certain that
you have these understandings about the world. It's, you know,
do unto others as you would have do unto you,
and things like that. But I'm I'm assuming you're less
certain about, you know, whether Jesus walked on water. You know,
it seems like not as real as what I see
in front of me every day.
Speaker 3: But that's up to you.
Speaker 1: Why do you need to add this layer that doesn't
do anything to your morality except reaffirm it. Can't you
just use your art stick that you have with you
and sort of throw out all of these supernatural texts.
Speaker 5: Well, it wouldn't be unethical to believe in a creator.
Speaker 2: It depends, Yeah, if that if that creator is one
that's condoning slavery, right like? That would that would probably
be a bad that probably not, It's.
Speaker 1: Probably not unethical to believe in it, But yeah, probably.
Speaker 3: Not ethical that your beliefs inform your actions.
Speaker 2: Right, right? But like it wouldn't it? It sure wouldn't.
It sure wouldn't match.
Speaker 3: But let's jump back and again.
Speaker 1: I think you didn't really respond to the question I asked,
Why don't you stop with your yardstick? Why are you
in the bookstore measuring all of these supernatural texts to
try to pick a book off the shelf. Why can't
you just walk out of the store with just your
yardstick and use that to measure the actions of the world.
Why do you need the scripture?
Speaker 5: Why do I need the scriptures?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Why can't you just walk out of that bookstore with
just your yardstick instead of using it to measure all
the books on the shelf and picking one that is
a Bible or a Koran or the Rastafarian book or
the scripture of the Spaghetti Monster, whatever it may be.
Why are you picking buying a book at all? Can't
you just use your yardstick? You seem to have a
good head on your shoulders. Can't you figure out what's
right and wrong by like reading literature and understand standing
the being empathetic and understanding what people must be going
through and sort of judging what actions hurt people and
what actions help people? Can't you just use that yardstick?
Why do you need the Bible or the Corona or
anything else?
Speaker 5: Well, do you want to know why I am hoping
that there's a God and what this God could do?
Or do you want to know something else?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 1: I think you you maybe put the nail on it,
but I want to make sure I differentiate the two things.
One is the reasoning that you've walked us too, as
to why you believe? We like, this whole call was
what do you believe? And then we said and why
do you believe it? It boiled down to I like
what I read in the Bible. It matches up with
my own morality the most. That's sort of what it
boiled down to. And then my question is, well, then
why do you need the Bible? If you're just looking
for things that match what you already believe outside of
the Bible, why do you need the Bible? So when
I asked you that, now you're saying, well, why do
you want to know why?
Speaker 3: I hope that God is real?
Speaker 1: So does that mean that you you believe in the
Bible or you think you need to believe in the
Bible because you you hope that some good will come
out of it. That's supernatural, Like you hope there's an
afterlife or something like that.
Speaker 3: Is that where you're where you're going?
Speaker 5: Well, I, before I grew up, I was a very
mixed up kids, So I learned a lot from books
and from other adults, and I had abusive parents. And
so I guess what I'm hoping for in believing in God?
And You're going to think it's really weird, But I'm
hoping that every wrong will be righted and every tyrant
will be given a perfect childhood and thus present every.
Speaker 4: Harm that has ever happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that, And and sorry, sorry to jump
in across question.
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the most honest and best
answers I've ever had on the show.
Speaker 2: Quite That's exactly what I was about to say, like Kelly,
far from being far from thinking that's a silly or
crazy answer. I think that is one of the most truest,
truest fucking things about us as people. I wake up
every single day hoping with everything that I have, giving
everything to this thought that just will just turn it around.
We'll We'll just wake up one day, tomorrow, the next day,
next year, and people will just say to themselves, how,
how do we live in a world where children starve?
How do we live in a world where where we
talked about this before the show, where baby formula is
locked up because people feel the need to have to
steal it to feed their children. How How it isn't
there something? Isn't there something out there that we can
hold on to to to just give us that m
to get out of bed and take a shower and
keep going every single fucking day. I am right there
with you, Kelly, and I'm I'm just gonna rip the
band aid off here a little bit, okay, And I'm
I know it's gonna be a little upsetting, but just
bear with me for a second, okay. I will land
this plane safely for all of us. The determination that
I came to is, there isn't a fucking thing. There
is absolutely nothing written into the fabric of humanity, our society,
into the universe, into anything whatsoever that there is going
to be a happy ending to this story. There just
fucking isn't. And everything around us keeps screaming that at
us constantly every second, every second that a child is hurt.
Every one of those assault cases you talked about that
goes unprosecuted, every time that a parent has to watch
their child die in their arms of a preventable disease
that we got rid of years ago, every time the
universe yells at us in our faces and says they're
in a damn thing good coming down the pipe next.
And you know what, here's where the hope comes in,
because the only fucking thing that has ever made a
difference in that whole shit scenario is us. It's you, Kelly,
It's me, It's cross Examiner, It's all the people that
gather regularly at the ACA to do something about it.
It's all the thousands and millions and billions of individual
actions that we take on a daily basis. Every day
you don't steal, Kelly, you make this world just a
little bit better. Every day that you choose to be kind,
you make this world a little bit better. It's us.
It's right here, It's in our grasp, you know. And
that's it. That's my hope. That's where that comes from.
Every single day, Why do I get up because I
know that crosses out there trying is fucking hardest and
there are other people too, And that's honestly why I
started hanging out with these guys at the ACA years ago,
is because every so often you can find a group
of people who wake up every day thinking that same
damn thing. And I'll tell you, We've been on this
call almost about an hour, Kelly, and I know there's
probably some people out there gonna bite my head off
about this, you know, But I'll just tell you this,
after everything I've heard from you, I really feel like
you're in our camp. I'm not saying you're an atheist.
I'm not saying you don't believe in God or any
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is you're
somebody who aligns so much on the values that myself
and so many other people here behind the scenes and
in tons of other places. I bet you where you
are in Minnesota, there's a group of humanists out there.
I bet you there is a recovering from Religon chapter
not super Far. And those are the type of people
who wake up every single day just like you, and
they say, fuck man, I want something about this world
to be better by the end of this day, and
they fight for it every single day. And I'm not
trying to take away your hope in Jesus. I'm not
trying to take away your love of God and the Scripture.
What I'm saying is that you can absolutely join in
with myself and Cross and a bunch of other people
and we can make that difference in front of us.
We absolutely can. And for me, that's it, that's all
I need. That's all I need. So Cross, give me,
give me some thoughts, and then we'll we'll finally, we'll
finally let you you have your Sunday back, Kelly, and
we'll we'll go to some other calls.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kelly, I do want to compliment you on I
think the self examination. I think if you go back
and listen to this call, I would encourage you to
listen to those times that we asked a very clear
question and you were about to do that what about is?
And we talked about you know this, how do you
explain this?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 1: What about this other thing? And that is your brain
sort of trying to avoid a difficult thought. I do
think I agree with secular on everything. I have thought
about this a lot. You know, in a worldview where
you don't have a god figure or a final judge,
a final punishment going to those who are truly evil.
It's easy to despair. It's easy to say, what's the
point when you know you have people that have certain
islands and do certain things on them, and then they
just die and they never really had to suffer at all, right,
not certainly, not in proportion to the harm that they
caused in this world. Why what's the point? Why shouldn't
I just go out and get mine Jack? And who
cares about everybody else? And there's a couple of things
that fight against it. First is that yard stick we
were talking about.
Speaker 3: You have it.
Speaker 1: You have a yard stick, I can tell, and you
use that yard stick to judge scripture, and you probably
use it to judge other things in your life. Right,
you don't get scammed by people saying that they've got
to get rich quick scheme, and you don't fall for
people taking your money for faith healing and all of that.
Speaker 3: Sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: So I would encourage you to keep using that yard stick,
and then keep asking yourself, isn't this yardstick enough? Why
do I need to hope for all this other stuff
to be true? And equate that hope with belief? Because
those are two different things. Do I hope that at
some point I will find a twenty million dollar diamond
buried in my backyard?
Speaker 3: Sure?
Speaker 1: I hope that. Does that mean I believe I will
do that? No, I don't believe that. I'm not convinced
that will happen the same way with some sort of fair,
loving God. Do I hope that there is some fire,
judgment or punishment for the people that we see in
public life right now? Who are you know, killing kids
through neglect or defunding or bombs?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I hope that. Do I believe that will happen?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: And that's that can be a sad moment, or it
can be an inspiration to do what secular was talking about,
which is that old saying about hands folded in prayer
don't help. It's the hands that get to work that help.
I would encourage you, rather than hoping and wishing for
something that is not we have no evidence to say
that it's going to actually happen, I would encourage you
to get involved in small local efforts where you can
help bring about justice. Whether that is volunteering for the ACLU,
the ACA, there's all sorts of organizations that are trying
to not fold their hands in prayer and just sit
there and hope and hope and hope, but to unclasp
those hands and get to work making their local community
a little bit better. Anything, go volunteer at the library
to sort books onto the shelf, from donating money to
help fight the illegal spread of Christian nationalism through our schools.
Speaker 3: Anything you can do will help.
Speaker 1: But if you don't do anything, then all you're doing
is closing your eyes and hoping that the helicopter won't crash,
when in reality, the controls are right in front of
you and you can help try to land the helicopter.
That's a call out to Jen Peebles, one of the
Hope one of the hosts of this show from like
twenty years ago, where she told a story she was
in the military. I think she was a helicopter pilot
if I'm remembering correctly, Hi, Jen, where she said, you know,
I don't know if they'd taken fire, but there was
a problem and somebody in the copter just started praying
and praying and praying. And Jen was I think a
captain at the time, piloting the thing, and she was
the one the the one atheist in the helicopter is
the one that grabbed the controls landed the plane, and
she uses that story to sort of talk about this.
Speaker 3: You know this.
Speaker 1: You can sit there and hope, but that's not really
going to do anything. So I would encourage you to
keep using your yard stick when you feel that urge
to say, I like what I find in the Bible
except for all these other bad parts. I like the
good parts of the Bible, except for the bad parts
of the Bible. That should be a red flag to
you that really what you like is your own yardstick.
Use that, and then if and when you get sufficient
evidence to convince you that the supernatural claims of the
Bible are true, do that.
Speaker 3: I would argue for.
Speaker 1: All the reasons we said that an NDA is not
only insufficient evidence, but it is contradictory evidence.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So that's that's my closing. And again, a wonderful call.
Speaker 2: I know, Kelly, you have tons and tons of different
things to say. This absolutely was one of the best
calls I have taken in a very law time. I
think you were incredibly genuine. You were you were so
open with us, and that is what it takes, you know,
and and it was a good time. I mean, we
laughed a good bit, we we learned some stuff, we
we talked about a lot of different things, and I
just think it is so freaking awesome. And I am
terribly sorry because I am just gonna have to drop
you like a hot rock here, and there's no good
way to do it without it being just a little awkward.
But call us back in the future, because I think
there are a bunch of people out there that want
to hear how you progress in this, in these thoughts
and and kind of what you what you end up doing.
And not to say that we're all just sitting around
rooting for you to become an atheist, but there are
many of us here that really value that journey and
understanding kind of how people have changed in their views,
even if where you land is still Christian, even if
you land in a in a new agey woo woo
crystally thing, if you go to Hinduism, and you you know,
we just want to hear more from you and have
really really good conversations like this. Again, Kelly, so thank
you so much, and again I'm so sorry. I'm going
to drop you very very abruptly, but I really really
do appreciate it. There's never a I've never figured out
a perfect way to just do that other than just
be like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Okay, you're God,
you know, like, yes.
Speaker 1: No, I think on the good calls, you could keep
talking to those people forever, but we do have other
calls to get to.
Speaker 3: So thank you again, Kelly.
Speaker 1: As a side note, while I was googling the exact
wording of the hands folded in prayer, which I just
now saw, Madeline Murray O'Hare is the person who gave
the quote, and it's two hands working can do more
than a thousands clasped in prayer. But when I was
googling that, I was getting thousands of results until I
entered the right query of what is the proper way
to clasp my hands during prayer? And it spoke so
much to what you're talking about. Is like you're spending
so many clock cycles on the right way to clasp
your hand when we have kids ten thousand children starving
to death every day, and measles is coming back in
the United States, and we've got every day there's a
pastor arrested for sex crimes against children and you're obsessing
over the right color of paint on the wall that
you pray in. So a thousand, one thousand clasped in
prayer compared to two going to work. I'll take the
two going to work every day.
Speaker 2: I completely, one hundred percent agree with that. And another
another fantastic quote, just with the exact wording, because this
is kind of what I was alluding to earlier. Margaret
Meade is attributed as saying that never doubt that a
small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed,
it is the only thing that ever.
Speaker 3: Has exactly exactly it.
Speaker 2: It is two quotes right there from two incredible, incredible women,
and yeah, like that that about says it all. Add
in the Maya Angelou of do the best you can
until you know better than do better. I mean, fuck, guys,
somebody write that shit down in a book. Let's sell it.
That's a that's an ethical fucking book right there. Man.
That's beautiful. You know, I don't know that we could
do that, by the way, I don't think like legally
that way. I think we might be like stealing is
something there. I don't I don't feel like that's okay,
But we're gonna get people working behind the scenes folks
on that and in the meantime as they are printing
those books or you know, writing them out by hand.
Let me go ahead and tell you to like this video.
Subscribe to the channel, enable the notifications, comment below on
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So don't do that. Be very clear that that is
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I get.
Speaker 3: I mean it's all the word harassed. Okay, that word.
Speaker 2: Just don't use that word, and then we're acceptable. You
are the lawyer, man, I don't know. I'm getting furious
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get a bunch of get a bunch of cross and
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Who does it? I also should should tell you that
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kind of like what we were we were talking about, folks.
So there is this awesome, awesome ability for you, uh
just just hanging out Joe blow in the chat viewer
to join the crew, help out, maybe be a guest
on the show, or even uh be a host like
you and I. You and I were both just random
people hanging out in the chat doing nothing, uh, saying
all kinds of hail satan's and whatnots and uh and
next thing, you know, here we are and they just
give us way too much latitude to say things on here.
But uh, if you also want to say things that
get you furious emojis behind the scenes from the crew,
there is a very easy way to do it. You
just shoot an email to volunteer at Atheist typhoncommunity dot org,
and we have a bunch of wonderful volunteers that are
gonna be there reading, reading that and reaching back out
to you. There are dozens of people that I know,
I'm very lucky enough to be friends with that that
have been able to help out and volunteer in a
number of freaking ways. And again, it's it's how you know,
we both kind of got started. We just we just
watched and we liked, and you know, we just reached
out and some nice person emailed us back. And that person, unfortunately,
is not as beloved anymore around the Freethought Library. That
person that brought you and I both on they they're
kind of a persona and on groud of They're like,
oh my god, who knew the hell you would bring us.
I'm just kidding, guys, I'm just kidding. We're all great
great friends, but I do need to shout out because
at this point they're furious with me, and I have
to talk about how beautiful they all are. There is
a wonderful crew that is behind the scenes putting this
show together. Ye and Greg just just so disappointed. And
it's really that's really the worst part. It's not the
anger that it's the it's the serious messages that are like, man, honestly,
at this point, I really thought you would understand this,
and the fact that you don't really just concerns me,
you know, Like so it's it's those kinds of quotes
that kick me up at night. But no, we have
the best video operators, audio operators, note takers, call screeners,
chat moderators, people that help out around the library, people
that read those emails, people that take care of all
the questions and all the wonderful things. And yeah, we
really appreciate every single one of them. And again, if
you want to get involved with it, it's very very easy.
Just shoot an email over to volunteer at atheistdashcommunity dot org, guys,
and then yeah, maybe you and I one day can
be ung looking it up about the Bible. That's right,
I do I do really, I will say real quick
before we go to go to another call. I really
do appreciate that. Kelly was like, yeah, no, there's just
some parts of it I just don't like and I
just don't read them and I just take them out
and it's like, yeah, yeah, I really appreciate that. You know,
that's that's super super awesome.
Speaker 1: They you can you can get a lot of people
who try to play a bunch of my games on
themselves or get into a twisty pretzel knots of logic
to try to accept everything as true. The famous quote
I remember was a pastor somewhere saying if the Bible
said that two plus two was five, I would accept
that and believe it and then spend my whole life
trying to understand why. And I'm like, man, that's the
wrong way, right. So yeah, I think that Kelly is
a great caller. It's great to talk to. I love
I'd love sort of getting a feel for why she
was believed these things. And yeah, I think she like
I said, it's x files I want to believe, and
she even said it at the end. I want there
to be a punishment. I want there to be consequences
for bad people. If we had to summarize, summarize that,
what do you believe in? Why I believe in Christianity
because I want there to be consequences for bad people?
Speaker 3: And you're not alone.
Speaker 1: It's just it's not, you know, creating a worldview in
which you believe things because you want them to be
true opens you up to risk in other areas. This
is something I didn't have the opportunity to tell her.
But you know, when I mentioned that, Hey, I hope
you're not falling for Ponzi schemes or you know, fraudsters
or WU operators. When you believe because you want to,
you open yourself.
Speaker 3: You make yourself look more vulnerable.
Speaker 1: You're not exercising that skeptical muscle of like I'm only
going to accept something as true once I've become convinced
based on sufficient evidence, and that can put you at risk.
But I think Kelly's seems aware enough of her method.
I'm just hoping that she just looks at that yard
stick that's already in her hand and goes, wow, this
is pretty finely tuned already.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Everything else is what's.
Speaker 1: The Napoleon quote that where laplace is presenting of the
model of the Napoleon, and Napoleon says, where does God fit in?
Speaker 3: And he says, I don't need.
Speaker 1: That to make the model work, or I don't need
that variable or something like it would just be another
useless gear doing nothing. I kind of feel like that
way about Kelly, Like you've got the yard stick, you're
a good person. Don't believe in the god stuff without
sufficient evidence, yep.
Speaker 2: And then I'd say, because I totally, I totally agree
with you that there's so so many people out there
who's like, you know, moral or ethical perspective comes down
to this. You know, I want there to be punishment
for wrongdoers out there. You know, I want somebody to
hold them accountable. You know, in the long run, I
would say, we flip that and instead of looking at
the ethical guiding principle as being we want consequences for
the bad things, I would say we want we want
better or more good things. I would say, but that's
a that's a whole other conversation that we're not having
at the moment, because I am gonna tell you about
this awesome super chat we just got in from sad
tech geek for five Canadian dollars. And before I go
any further, I just want to mention the fact that
thank you so much. I love that you put the
phonetic spelling of Saskatchewana in there. I genuinely that made
me so happy. It just it just made me. It
just I just I just got tickled. Anyway. The former
NDP Premiere of Saskatchewan, Tommy Douglass, considered the father of
medicare in Canada, use the Mead quote all the time.
That's awesome. Yeah, it's a super super great quote for sure,
and a lot to be a lot to be learned
by Madeline, Muriel Hare, Margaret Meade and My Angelou. Like
a freaking powerhouse can.
Speaker 3: Do a lot worse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you sure could.
Speaker 3: Fantasy philosopher game.
Speaker 2: I could think of I could think of a handful
right now that sit in positions of power. But we're
not going to talk about that. We're going to go
out to a call. We've got this fella here, Lukey
him pronouns in Florida. It just kind of sounds like
we're talking about it seems like he's an atheist. Yeah,
we're going to talk a little bit about some of
the implausible stuff in the Bible. So, hey, Luke, what
you got for us today?
Speaker 7: Hey?
Speaker 6: So, I just wanted to present some arguments against Christianity
and I'm going to see if you guys think about them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, man, you want to test out a couple
of things, Just just see if we think there's there's
some holes or anything. We can put on a little
bit of our Christian apologists hat.
Speaker 7: Tell me if there's anything wrong with it. You know,
kind of want to get educated from you guys. You
know what I mean.
Speaker 2: We will piss you off as best we can. Luke,
how about.
Speaker 6: It sounds good? So my first argument is God's just impossible.
I mean, how could he speak things into existence? How
could his words make something appear from nothing? Like he
has no materials, nothing exists at all. How could he
speak words and those words create things?
Speaker 7: Yeah, he phrases the words. How does that create things?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 6: That's impossible.
Speaker 7: That's not yet.
Speaker 3: So let's start.
Speaker 1: You're asserting, you're asserting things that you don't know. Impossibility
has to be proven, and impossibility, I mean possibility must
be proven and impossibility must be proven, and it is
quite frankly probably harder to prove I have to think
about that one, but I don't think it's a great
argument because it's got a couple of problems. One and
before you can say God is impossible, you then have
to say, well which God, So you need to start there.
And then to say to just assert that a god
speaking things into existence is impossible, you have no evidence
to base that on.
Speaker 6: I kind of do though, because there had to have
been a naturalistic process where things are correct. We do
know that we know the plant to create it, because
like there's this whole process where these particles come together
and things be created evolved over time, Like we have
evidence of that.
Speaker 1: We have evidence that a naturalist brought naturalistic hold on,
hold on, we have evidence that a naturalistic problem as
has created things. But what you're saying is utterly unrelated
to that. What you're saying is speaking the universe or
anything into existence is impossible. How are you demonstrating that
that is impossible?
Speaker 2: Right current?
Speaker 3: Let's put it in another way, how.
Speaker 1: Would you demonstrate that it would be impossible to find
a teacup ordering orbiting Saturn?
Speaker 3: How would you find that?
Speaker 1: Like, like, it's very hard to just assert something argumentative
that something is impossible when you don't have a very
very very thorough methodology of investigating all possibilities.
Speaker 2: So go ahead, starry, no, no, no, because this is
perfect and let me let me. I'll bring up to
two things. One just on that line of thought, and
then I'll go back to the initial statement there, because
again we're just trying to you know, metal sharp and
metal here. So like the thing that I would say
is instead of instead of saying impossible, right, just give
yourself a little bit more grace and ground to stand on. Right, Like,
say something to the effect of everything we know about
the natural world seems to point to us that this
is incredibly unlikely, if not impossible. You're basically saying the
same thing, Luke. But do you see how you've already
put yourself on more solid ground. Instead of saying there
are no black swans, you then take the claim to
currently all of the swans we've ever seen are white.
That's a much more solid ground to stand on, right.
And then the other thing I would go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 7: The one thing I noticed is I have a Christian family.
I live with a Christian family, and so I.
Speaker 6: Found the easiest way to convert them is to talk
about how God's is magical, being the speech things to existed,
you know, to make kind of make fun of the
almost to show how it's an impossible fantasy, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 3: Kids don't stop believing.
Speaker 1: Some kids don't stop believing in Santa Claus until you
get teased at school about it. Like there's lots of
different paths to people being deconverted from Santa Claus belief
and religious beliefs. So yep, absolutely true. But I agree
with SR. The word impossible is you're putting the burden
of proof onto you, and it's better to say other
things like how would you like or turn it around
and say what evidence do you have that anything ever
spoke before the Big Bang?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the much better position to say, what does
the Bible mean when it says God spoke things into existence?
When we know that the people who wrote that story,
like the original story coming from the Torah was an
oral tradition starting with Bronze age illiterate sheep herders or
goat herders who didn't know where the sun went at night. Right,
that's where this story comes from. And you're now telling
me after we've learned everything about the cosmos, and we
know that we come back to this point called the
Big Bang, behind which it may not even make sense
to say what happened before then. But you're telling me
that those guys got the message that God spoke things
into existence. What evidence do you have that that is
actually in any shape or form true? What evidence? That's
the better way to do it than to say it
is impossible.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and real quick. And then I want to go
back to something else that you just said there, Luke,
because I think that may be kind of the crux
of this that that would be really fun to tease out.
But just real quick, just because I know there's somebody
out there fallacy police screaming at me right now. Technically,
the argument that you presented is under that kind of
a category of like incredulity, which basically is when somebody says, like, well,
how could Michael Jordan even make a shot from that
far on the court? You know, that doesn't actually demonstrate
that he didn't or can't. It's just our inability to understand, right.
Speaker 3: I can't imagine a way it would happen.
Speaker 2: Therefore it's therefore it can't write exactly and so so
Christian apologists, those that are very you know, studied in
philosophy and things, would would would kind of you know,
pay at that. But let me go back to what
you just said a second ago, because I think that
might be the more important issue, which is about where
you said, you know, the best way to deconvert my
family is X y Z. And one of the ways
you mentioned is humor, which I very much value. I
think there there is a lot that good natured humor.
Speaker 6: Serious man, he's a very serious man. So if you
argue with him logically and say, oh, I hold this position,
but you're for sure fine that he's gonna you don't
feel all good about his belief. But I say, Dad,
you believe in this magical man that speaks thinks of existence.
Speaker 7: Sure he doesn't like that, you know, Yeah, yeah, I
get it.
Speaker 2: Trust me, I trust me, trust me. I get it. Man,
I I understand.
Speaker 6: I understand the tactic and stuff.
Speaker 2: Hang on just second, Luke, hang on, because I want to.
I just want to. We've we've been bringing up quotes
all day, and I want I want to bring up
one quote from this this super awesome guy named doctor
Darryl Ray. He actually uh said it once on this
show many years ago, where somebody had called in and
they had asked about, you know, what's the best way
to X y Z, how do I this? How do
I that? And he just said, you know, what's really
your goal? Like what's the point of what you're doing
and you're trying to get this system and all this
stuff worked out, and like what do you want at
the end of it? And like, that's a good question
to ask, Loup, because if what you really want is
kind of like what you just said a minute ago,
which is just like, man, I just I just want
to burn all their thoughts to the ground, baby, I
just want them to fucking wake up tomorrow and say
Jesus is dumb as fuck and I was duped and
fuck all this church shit. You know, if that's kind
of what you want there, there is a lot of
there are a lot of tactics and methods that you
could use to do that. I would just say, and
this is just totally my personal opinion, brother, I don't
think that that's the best way to do it. I
think doing something a bit more kind of like what
Cross was talking about, where he was saying, you know,
you know, kind of kind of ask them questions, kind
of bring it back on them. You know, hey, do
you actually believe like God's spokes things into existence? Like
how did that work? Like was it like like a
bat screech and God just went ah and then like
planets happened, Like how does that work? You know?
Speaker 6: Kind of because of the materials pop up?
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, yeah, and and kind of by by
doing that, by teasing that out right, by by teasing
that out like it can kind of show the absurdness
of it too, you know. And in fact, there is
this argument at absurdom where basically what you do is
is you take this claim and you go, okay, let's
just follow that, you know, and you keep going to
the next step and then what and then what and
then what and then okay, so we robbed the bank, right,
then what did he do? Well, he went home with
the money. Then what did he do? He spent the money?
Then he did this, then he did this. Well, now
we know it's not true because in this scenario, the
guy's the fucking president of the United States. You see
how that's ridiculous, father, you know, you see how that's
kind of silly, brother, uncle, whatever, you know, but yeah,
I think a big part of this is coming back
to that, like, is is the goal to just I
just want to tear down there believes one hundred percent,
you know, which I'm not saying is wrong or bad.
I'm just saying, you know, maybe I would choose a
different tac But is that kind of where you're coming
from on this loop? Oh?
Speaker 7: Yeah, that is not good. I want to make them realize,
you know, yeah, too much of their life.
Speaker 3: Well what what?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 6: What?
Speaker 2: What? What? What?
Speaker 3: What? What?
Speaker 6: What?
Speaker 3: Wha? I think you just said. I want to make
them realize it's stupid.
Speaker 7: That correct, make them realize that it is out of reality.
That's not a part of reality.
Speaker 1: But what you said was stupid, right? What But what
you said was stupid? The word you used was stupid?
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, Okay, I'm.
Speaker 1: Going to sort of object and provide some input on that.
I wouldn't use those terms, And I think the fact
that you use those terms might say more about your
mentality than theirs. I've known a lot of very very
intelligent people that are very very Christian.
Speaker 3: Okay, so I wouldn't.
Speaker 1: I would recommend avoiding that mentality. The word whatever you
use the word right, and you may use it as
slang or whatever, but I think that I need you
to stop talking when we're talking. Okay, you're you're excited,
I can tell that, But I'm trying to give you advice.
You ostensibly called in for advice. That was what the
call was about. So I want to give that advice
to you. And what I'm worried about is that you're
unseerious about this, that this is something that is just
a game. You're doing it because you don't like your family,
or you're just trying to poke buttons or whatever. We're
here trying to help people around the world who struggle
with why they believe things and whether or not they
should believe things. We've had people call in from the
Middle East that if they were caught on the phone
with us, they would be put to death.
Speaker 3: So when you come in and say I want.
Speaker 1: To get back at my stupid parents or their stupid beliefs,
I do want to call that out a little bit and.
Speaker 3: Say, no, I think they again.
Speaker 1: Hold on, I want to call that out a little
bit and say I don't think their beliefs are stupid.
I don't think and I don't think you were saying
they were stupid. But when you have that mentality, I
think that it taints the way that you approach the problem.
If you genuinely want to help people, then don't go
around thinking their beliefs are stupid, go around thinking they're mistaken.
Speaker 3: They have these beliefs.
Speaker 1: There's more people in the world that have some sort
of those beliefs than don't, and not the whole world
is stupid. So you know, a little more of a
white glove treatment. Tread a little more carefully, because while
it's okay to be the kid on the bus making
fun of the kid who believes in Santa Claus, I
don't think that kid's stupid, and I don't think that
he's stupid for believing what his parents told him at
an age where he trusts his parents. And that's all
I'm saying is be a little more careful because otherwise,
you quite frankly, you just sound like somebody who wants
to be a jerk.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 6: I think that he's an intelligent guy, but this one
belief that holds.
Speaker 7: Us back so much.
Speaker 6: It's sure, Yeah, accept reality.
Speaker 7: He's all guys in a lot of ways. He's a nurse.
Speaker 6: He's very smart, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you and you're you're probably you're probably coming
from a very similar position, Luke that the the totally
devout believing Christians and Muslims and stuff, you know, for instance,
in in the Islamic teachings. It's not it's really many
many people believe this. There are versions that that do
not agree. But many people think, think and have said
for a long time. The Koranic scripture absolutely abhorrors homosexuals, okay,
and those people really they really feel like they're they're
doing good things. You know. All they want is they
want Elton John to to to go to heaven with
them too. They don't want him to be tortured for eternally,
and that's why they want him to stop being gay,
you know, and like like this, yeah, but but do
you see how kind of pointing back to what what
Cross was cautioning a little bit that you're you're kind
of touching on that territory yourself, right in the sense
of like there's a little bit of this kind of
patronizing talking down whereas it might be, and it seems
to be the case based on some data and psychology
and stuff like having more of a a compassionate viewpoint
in this and and coming not from the perspective of like, man,
you're so smart everywhere else, you're just a fucking dipshit
when it comes to this, and having more of like
a hey, maybe you're you're you're convinced for not super
great reasons, or maybe you're mistaken, or even again, flip it,
hey maybe I'm super duper mistaken. And I just genuinely
don't understand. Could you explain this to me? How does
a being outside of space and time, before time in
the universe existed, how does it talk stuff into existence?
That's a little odd to me. You know again, I
I just want you to know that I am not
I am not saying that what you're doing is like
the worst thing in the world. There are a ton
of people out there on the youtubes man, that are
super popular for doing shit like that. And I might
just say, you know, start a fucking TikTok, right and
and put your views out there and see, you know
how people respond and stuff. I personally and this is
just this is just my own tact. And I know
cross Examiner is is kind of in this as well too.
We both tend to take a bit more of a
of a you know, softer approach. We tend to take
a bit more of the compassionate kind of thing. I
will say, when it comes to family members especially, it
is really really difficult, if not impossible, uh, to keep
that more compassionate kind of feel, you know, to keep
that more kind of cool, level headed approach, because obviously
you care very much about them, You love them very much,
and especially when you see the harm that it's causing them, right,
whether it's psychological and emotional or physical and financial, exactly,
you just want them to feel better, man, exactly. I'm
and I'm so right there with you and for me,
because that's my focus, right, Because where I come to
this is not I want all the bad Christians to
be punished. I mean, sure, I want consequences for bad actions, right,
but that's not my focus. What my focus is is
I want everybody to be as as lifted as they
possibly can. I want everybody to be in as best
of a place as they possibly can with the minimal
amount of suffering, right absolutely everywhere. And so because of
that view, I approach it this way. And the reason
that I approach it this way is because again, there
are much smarter people than me that have been looking
at this shit for a long time and they say that, hey,
method over here A it doesn't work as well getting
us to that point, whereas method B over here does
seem to. And again, I am sure not the expert
on this or anything. I am not the end all
be all. There's this awesome, awesome nonprofit called Street Epistemology International.
They offer these free courses man, that just teach you
how to have conversation like this, you know, and you
just walk through it on your own. It's called Navigating Beliefs.
It's completely free. I just think they're a really great
organization personally, and I love them, and they have a
lot of really good things that they do, and they
talk about this stuff. And there's a bunch of other
people as well, man. You know. But again, I'm gonna
be honest with you, Luke, I do very much understand
that impulse to be like, hey, your Bible's kind of
fucking dumb. And I will even go so far as
to say I do think they're there are some appropriate
times and places to do that, and I think it
takes I think it takes a lot of different methods,
you know, to get to get all of us there. Man,
I know, I know You've got a ton more to say,
and I'm so sorry that we didn't have more time
to chat and stuff. I'm gonna I'm gonna drop you
unceremoniously and unfortunately because I'm gonna I'm gonna bring in
our wonderful, wonderful backup hosts so that he can give
us some of his thoughts today. But Luke, thank you
so much, and dude, seriously call us back. Man, let
us know how, let us know how the next conversation
goes with the FAM, or if you find something out
there and we just got all this wrong and you're like, no, no, no,
you don't understand. There was this study done in twenty nineteen, motherfuckers,
and this shit proves coming down hard on people and
making fun of their beliefs really changes their minds. That
may be the That absolutely may be the case. And
if I am wrong, I am the first person to
tell you, Luke, I will absolutely directly apologize to you
for it, my brother, But yeah, give us.
Speaker 3: An up dat man, that would be impossible.
Speaker 7: I he did it.
Speaker 2: He brought it back. He brought it back. No, seriously, though, Luke,
thank you so freaking much, dude. We really really appreciate it.
And please come hang out with us again in the
future man. And by the way, don't just hang out
here cross. Do you know that now on Sundays there
is this like powerhouse block of atheist content that you
can find from the ACA. It just goes from like
one pm Central to six pm Central. There is just
you know, we now have the beloved show from the
AEAN Truth Wanted is now in between the amazing Talk
Heathen and this awesome show. I just think that is
super duper cool man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys, I found out about that recently and
my first thought was our poor crew.
Speaker 2: I know, I know, guys, send your super chats, Please
send us some love to the crew. They need it.
They need some water bottles, they need some food. Somebody
just to just to pat him on the back and
say you got this. Just another two hours because s
R is on and he never shuts the fuck up,
but you can do this. But before we get out
of here, absolutely, let us bring that wonderful, wonderful backup
host today areas Jamie the Blind line is pack what
is up, dude? What did you think of? What did
you think? We were some jobs today?
Speaker 8: I have complicated feelings about the cause that we had today.
Kelly made me incredibly sad. I understand where she's coming from,
I feel, I mean, I can only empathize as much
as I can because it sounds like she's gone through
a lot in her life. And when you have faced
that much trauma, comfort becomes more important than truth. And
I think that one of the reasons why I fight
so vehemently against the indoctrination of religion is that they
prey on that vulnerability, that need to have something to
make it, make it make sense, to make it, to
give hope. The problem is is that it's a it's
a false hope, it's a it's a limited hope. It's
a hope that's on borrowed time. Because if you unless
you can really keep up that cognitive dissonance all the
way through your life, you're going to be seeing hardship
after hardship, horror after horror, denigration after denigration, and you
will not see relief or justice. You will see on
fairness and chaos and terror. And I mean, I'm almost
I'm almost not prayer, and I'm almost admiring of people
who can hold their faith in those circumstances, because holy shit,
the mental gymnastics. That's gold medals across the board. Nine
point nine from the British judge. And then Luke. I've
spoken to Luke before I would. I'm going to give
him the benefit of the doubt that his intentions are good.
He sounds quite young, and I'm speaking from a place
of experience here that I was one of the reasons
why and again not to attack someone who's not not
currently here to defend themselves, and this isn't really an attack.
I do get slightly annoyed by that kind of standpoint,
mainly because he is me twenty five years ago. He
is me as a younger dumbo man. He thought he'd
got it all figured out so clever, calling calling religious
people stupid or even worse crazy like oh my goodness.
And so while I can, I can absolutely understand that
it's very tempting an extra me cathartic to just want
to have a sort of intellectual punch up with a fist,
and it's very cathartic. I found a lot of comfort
in it back during the COVID days when I first
started getting into this whole atheist atheist malarkey. But this
is something and actually my housemate helped me get to
this point when I was having a bit of a
crisis of confidence about a year ago about why we
do what we do here. The mission is bigger than
the man. Whenever you engage in a conversation, and this
is a furtherance of Graham's point here across the Gadman's
point that examine why you're having this conversation, what is
the objective, Because if it's just to make yourself sound
clever or feel better or get one over on someone,
that is not a conversation. That is essentially bully. And
unless that person has come at you first. I'm not
saying you should be completely capitulatingmpletely soft gloves, right, but
if you're engaging from the jump like that, you're not
going to have a very productive conversation. That to say,
if someone's saying I believe in God and that means
that women shouldn't vote, and slavery is good, and I
think that we should repeal the nineteenth Amendment and the
fourteenth Amendment and the first Amendment. Then yeah, have at
them all guns blazing uss Iowa, taking the top off
a mountain styly temper temper. But until that point, until
you're matching their energy, keep the sword in the sheath,
you know, be the bigger man, and only engage in
those more sort of ascurbic tactics when it is warranted.
Speaker 2: I think that is absolutely one of the indicators for knowledge, maturity, compassion,
and I think all those good things. You know, there
are times when it is right to be a little
bit more terse with people, a little bit more cross
with people. You know this, you know this ce and
and there are times when we should be more compassionate.
And yeah, we shouldn't try to take advantage or bully
or beat down or anything. I just think that we
will never get to that highest mountain top of morality
that way. I just don't. I just don't think. So
that doesn't mean that we let atrocious behavior go by.
You know, we've been talking about it this whole freaking episode,
and there are you know, twenty six freaking awesome year.
Even more, now, what are we at, like thirty is
it thirty years now?
Speaker 3: Is that where we're at? I think it's high twenties,
if not at.
Speaker 2: Least okay, And there is dozens and dozens of times
that that we do that, and many people have. We
just always have to keep pushing for it and correct
ourselves and making sure that we're we're doing the right things.
But yeah, Jamie, we appreciate you hanging out with us
and making sure that we're we're all safe and good
to go. And and I love getting to talk with you, man.
I want to actually actually they told me the date
to the back cruise.
Speaker 3: No, they said you couldn't tell them.
Speaker 2: No, I feel like I can say something about hang on,
not yet, not not yet, Okay, not yet, just hang on,
Just hang on, guys, I while I'm getting a message
from from the crew. Okay, let me I think I
can announce I think they can.
Speaker 3: No, No, that there was okay, well sternly word.
Speaker 2: Well let me just let me just say this, folks,
thank you so much for being here. Come hang out
with us again. Four thirty pm Central Times on Sunday,
this awesome channel. You know, I I think I'm just
gonna I'm just gonna do it. I'll do Look, Okay,
So I have been told that the dates of the
bat crew are going to be at watch talk Ethan
Lives Sundays at one pm Central. Visit tiny dot c
c slash y t t H and call into the
show at five one two nine nine one nine two
four two, or connect to the show online at tiny
dot c c slash call th H