Speaker 1: You're listening to the paranlel UK Radio network and this
is six Degrees of John Keel. Hello and welcome to
the Six Degrees of John Keele podcast. I'm your host
Barbara Fisher. Tonight, I'm welcoming Deb Cobble. She is an
very interesting person. She wrote the book Extraordinary Contact Life
Beyond Intruders, and that title Intruders might joggle some people's
memories or you know, catch your attention. Somewhere. You were
known as Kathy Davis, weren't you, Yes, yes, So this
is this lady is the real life, honest to god
name of Kathy Davis. And I'm excited to hear from
her and talk with her tonight because if there's something strange,
she knows something about it, has experienced it, or knows
somebody who has. Thank you so much for coming on
to talk with me, Deb.
Speaker 2: And thank you for asking, Barbara. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I just finished reading your book, and of course I
did read Intruders, but that was like, I don't know,
twenty years ago. More than that, it was because I
read it when it came out, and then I read
it again like about fifteen or twenty years ago. Uh,
and it's really interesting to read your book and and
written in your words of the things that you experienced
and how you experienced them. And one of the things
that is just is just like a rich vein of
ore in the middle of your of your book, just
winding through every chapter, is the the kinds of experiences
that come with UFO contact of some sort. There's all
of the psychic stuff, there's uh, paranormal stuff, there's poltergeist stuff,
you name it, it's in there. And as I was reading it,
I was like, oh, well, hmm uh that's uh wow,
uh spiders, huh okay, uh yeah. And what happened was
I was remembering a lot of stuff from generally in
my case it was around teenagerhood, you know, ten, eleven,
twelve and up, but so many of them you would
have the exact description of what I had seen or experienced,
and I was just kind of like, but I'm not
an abductee, am I. Okay? Well I want to talk
with her, so here we are. Here we are, And
I wanted to ask you when did your poltergeist, psychic
strange things that didn't look like aliens but are still
strange things start happening for you.
Speaker 2: It's been happening most of all my life. I mean
I can remember. Let's see, well, my family would talk
about it, and they always talked about weird stuff happening
around the house, even when I was really young and
didn't understand it, like it was just normal. And so
I had grew up assuming that that sort of thing
happened to everybody. My sister is she's eleven years older
than me and my oldest sister, and you know, she
had a UFO siding back in nineteen sixty five that
the family talked about. You know, I heard the family
talking about it for years, grew up and I just
assumed that sort of thing happened to everyone, because you know,
my family talked about it. My mother always was interested
in psychic things. I don't know, I'm probably dating myself,
but she used to like to read books by Sylvia
Brown but before her Jeene Dixon. We have this running joke,
you know that I still tell that no one gets
anymore that says, what do I look like Jeane Dixon?
You know, it used to work back in the nineties,
but now when I said, people look at me like,
who's that? But anyway, you know, so my mom was
interested in things like that. And my father, his mother
always told everyone he was psychic when he was a
little kid. So, I mean, I just grew up around it,
and I always just assumed it was normal. My little sister,
by the time she was able to verbally talk, you know,
where you get to understand her, she was telling my
mom that she saw colors around people's heads, and she
talked to dead people, you know. And still to this
day she's sixty years old and she still talks to
dead people, you know. Yeah, And this was before when June. Now,
I had a couple of God, there's so much squirrel
squirrel I had.
Speaker 1: We chased squirrels on this podcast. It's all right, don't
worry about it.
Speaker 2: I had when I was a teenager, I had an
experience with two other girls in a car out in
the country. We saw a light in the sky that
ended up on the ground, and I had actually the
gal who was driving actually had more memory of it
than I did. And then when I was a young
married woman, not that long after because I got married,
you know, at eighteen, I had an event where these
two little gray guys came in my bedroom with the
black box, and you know, when I first saw them,
I was terrified, but immediately was not scared anymore. Soon
as I saw the box, I just calmed down. And
I don't know just when I was in when I
started going to elementary school and I got to the
age where I could start talking to other kids, and
I quickly realized that not everybody's family sees ghosts or
horrors or things like that, And you know, I just
quit talking about it because I wanted to be normal
and I wanted to have friends, you know, But it
never stopped. I remember a time my mom, my sister,
and I sitting at the kitchen table. At the time,
all of us smoked, and we were sitting there drinking
coffee and having a cigarette one of those great big
glass amber ash trays, you know, the one's weigh like
ten pounds on the table and I reached over to
flip my ash off my cigarette, and when I did,
the ash tray snapped in half and split apart. One
side slid to one side of the table, one side
slid to the other, and all the mess and ashes
sat in the middle. And here's three different reactions. My mom,
who apparently is okay with this sort of stuff. She's like,
oh my god, that ashtray was expensive, and my yeah,
that's what her thinking. My thinking was, oh my god,
that's so cool. Did I do that? And my sister's
thinking was hell with that, I'm out of here, and
she took a person went home. So three different reactions
in the same family, you know. I remember one time
we were sitting at the table again and my mom
had some Indian corn on the door. It was fall
and you know, multi colored corn on the door, and
it started rattling. The corn. You could hear it scrapping
on the door and shaking back and forth. And we
all looked up and there was no one there, but
the corn was moving. And again my sister grabs her
purse and she's like, see you, she's out here. Yeah.
So but I mean, when that sort of stuff happens
to you all the time and you grow up around it,
you kind of get immune to it after a while,
and I did. There were a lot of times I
think I just would notice little things and think of whatever,
you know, I mean, because it happened so much. But
then after the June thirtieth, nineteen eighty three thing that
happened that Bud wrote about in Intruders. It seems like
all of that stuff, that stuff that was already there
kind of exploded. It's like it magnified. And to the
nth time, you know, we had like what you would
call poltergeist activity on an almost day basis for a
year afterwards. Not not only was not only was bizarre
stuff going on with me, but in the house too,
you know, I think it's in the book I was.
I was downstairs at one point, I was downstairs folding laundry.
It might have been after I already moved out, but
I can't remember. All I know was down in mom's
house folding laundry in the basement because it was a
try level and there was a TV down there was
watching TV. The baby was in his playpen, and the laundry,
of course was down in the basement. And I heard
I was at home alone, but I suddenly heard a
bunch of footsteps all through the house, like little footsteps,
like children running around everywhere. I heard the stereo turn
it on and off. I heard the I heard noise
in the kitchen, and sorry, get distracted here. I heard
noise in the kitchen, and then the baby starts crying
and he wants a bottle. It's time for him to eat,
and I'm like, oh my god, what do you do it?
Why are you crying? I finally had to make my
way up the stairs slowly to the kitchen to open
the refrigerator to grab the bottle. And when I did,
I opened up the refrigerator and like lids off of
the tupperware, bulls and butter bowls and everything. Oh, I
flew everywhere. So I grabbed the bottle and ran back downstairs.
At one point I think I called my sister because
I was so afraid. And while I was on the
it was either my sister or my mom, whoever I
was on the phone with. I heard the extension upstairs
pick up, yeah, you know, on the lane. And at
that point it was either my mom or my sister.
Said call the police. Call the police right now. Hang
up and call the police. And I said if I can't,
if they're on the extension, I can't hang up, and
she said, I'll call them, and she hung up. The
police came out. They were everywhere. I mean, they pulled
up in the front, they pulled up in the back,
they had their guns. They went through the whole house.
They even went in the attic, they went to the
back and there was nobody there, and the door inside
was still locked with the chain lock on the back.
Oh so yeah, just you know, light bulbs would explode
and drop down out of hanging lamps and then shoot
across the room. And it was it wasn't just happening
around me, It was happening to everybody in the family.
And strangely enough, even when we moved, like when I
moved out of that house, it came. The weirdness came
with me. When my sister moved it, you know, it
went with her. So it wasn't the property, it was
us that this was attached to her going with you know. Yeah,
And like I said, I kind of connected it with
the UFO stuff because it seemed like it intensified so
much after the June third, eighty three incident. It got
stronger and different, and I started to change also at
that point. So and then later I became like, when
something scares me, it's my tendency to want to learn
as much about it as I can. And as I
told you before, when the when the event of June
thirty eighty three, that Bud wrote about and intruders happened.
One of the first things I did was try to
figure out what caused it, to try to rule out
and you know, anything and find a rational explanation for it,
because what little bits and pieces of memory I had,
I couldn't accept it didn't fit in my world and
just didn't this stuff didn't happen like that, you know,
because we were beyond the ghost stuff at that point.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So.
Speaker 2: And that wasn't working. Like like I told you, I
could find plenty of people tell me what it wasn't,
but I couldn't find anybody that was bold enough to
tell me what it might be or what it was,
you know. And I had read Bud Hopkins book. I
tried to read Bud Hopkins book Missing Time, couldn't. I've
never finished it to this day. And in the back
of that book there was a place where you could
write to him if you thought you'd had an experience
like that. So I went back to the library and
got the address out of the book, and I wrote him,
told him about the June thirty incident, also through my
older sister under the bus, and told him about her
nineteen sixty five experience that she had with the UFO
in the church parking lot, and he, I don't know.
It was a month, maybe six weeks or so later
I heard from him again, back again, and he that
was when the investigation began, you know. And at that
point I was having a nervous breakdown, I think, but
I was still desperately trying to find what was going on. Now.
As I worked with Bud and my family worked with
Bud through the following three years, I realized that there
was a lot I didn't know about this whole UFO thing.
I mean, not other than close Encounters the third kind
and the Barney and Betty Hill movie Interrupted Journey, you know,
and missing time. I didn't have a lot of exposure
to that stuff. Most of it was the paranormal side,
the poultruregeist and the mind you know, being psychic and
moving things with your mind and reading cards down and
all that stuff. It wasn't the UFO stuff. So I
figured out pretty quickly that knowledge is power, and the
more I knew about something, the less afraid I was.
So I started to learn as much as I could.
But in the beginning, Bud didn't want me to read
books about UFO stuff or abduction stuff. He wanted me
to stay away from all of that because he didn't
want the possibility of something cut leaking into my subconscious,
you know, and then coming out later. He wanted me
to stay the way I was, so I honored that
for the longest time. But once I got the okay
from him, I started to try to learn as much
about it as I could, and about other people's experiences,
And I ended up becoming an investigator from moof On,
Indiana for several years, and I learned a whole bunch.
I also learned that there was a lot of people
out there like me. And I also learned that and
in the course of going with Bud around when he
did lectures about Intruders, you know, when the book first
came out, and I did go with him, and I
met lots and lots of people like me. I also
discovered that they too had this whole paranormal side that
none of the UFO researchers were really wanting to talk about.
Even Bud wasn't completely comfortable talking about some of this,
you know, in Intruders or with you know, in the
in the conferences. He might brush brush by it a
little bit just to but I found that when I'm
the more people that I met like me, the more.
This is a part of it, and the changes are
a part of it. The Polder Guy's activity that happened
around me and my family and the things that were
happening to me, Like the time that I was cleaning
helping my sister clean my mom's cabinets. We were refinishing
them and cleaning the brass handles and stuff up for
their anniversary gift. I was just a teenager at the time,
but I was pissed off because my sister was making
me do it and I didn't want to. And so
I remember being out in the driveway with a scrub
brush and a bucket of soapy water and some crap
that I had to rub on these brass handles to
get them clean. And I'm just rubbing and rubbing and rubbing,
and my sister comes out and sticks her hands in
the bucket and pulls out all these handles I'd already cleaned,
and she's like, what the hell did you do? And
I'm like, what are you talking about? And all these
brass handles were twisted up. Oh I did not twist them,
and we couldn't twist them back. We ended up having
to go buy new handles. She's somehow that I did that.
I mean, I don't know how I did, and I
don't remember doing it because I was just pissed and
scrubbing them in the water. But I mean things like this.
But guess what. Other people who've seen UFOs had contact
with something like me, have reported that too. I didn't
know it at the time, but I found out later.
Other people have reported heightened psychic awareness, heightened abilities, you know, intuition,
strange electrical things happen around them. I mean, yeah, it's
part of it. And for so many, so many years
back in the a's and nine these the UFO research
community was all nuts and bolts. Hell, they did any
want to talk to you if you saw a creature,
if you became like a C four or five, they're like, okay, no,
thanks by, have a nice day, or they are they
or yes, they just leave it out. But it did.
It's such an injustice because because it is a part
of it, it is a part of us, and it's
you know, I dare say, this is my opinion. Maybe
it's part of the point. I don't know, uh, or
it was maybe it's either I always said, was I
like this therefore attracted this attention? Was it generational? Was
my my entire family line of people like this? Or
did something they do do to you to change something
that made me like this? You know? But for whatever reason,
these two subjects, this pair of normal side in the
UFO side, go hand in hand. I mean, the only
common denominator I've been able to find in thirty years
of meeting people has been the actual person who experienced it.
We're all similar types of people, you know, intellectually and
psychically and spiritually. You know. Yeah, anyway, it's just weird. Yeah,
I've got a like I said, I have a corner
koupia of weirdness about my entire life. I've you know,
We've had one time we woke up and my kids'
room was absolutely full of bees, hundreds of bees hanging
off the drapes, hanging off the walls, hanging off the
light fixtures. But they were all so lethargic you could
scoop them up with your hands and they barely move,
let alone stinging, not sting you. You know, we swept
them up with a shop back and took them outside,
and we never could figure out how they even got
in that room because there wasn't any attic exit at
our entrance store there, and the windows had been painted
shut by my father, who was yeah, he was in
trouble by it already, by my mom. They hadn't gotten
it fixed yet, but you know, the windows were painted shut.
There was nowhere these things could get him from the
and the house was a sandstone try level. It was
a stone house with plaster walls, so we couldn't figure
out where they came from. And then we've had things
like I think the word is a ports where things
just disappear and reappear in weird places.
Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, that that's happened all my life.
Speaker 2: And that's happened all my life too, with the multitude
of things, even going far back as to my early teens,
you know, eleven, twelve, thirteen, but one in particular that
stood out because I completely destroyed a bedroom carpet over
It was I was living with my parents at the time,
and I believe it was after the June thirty eighty
three incident. My boyfriend had given me a promised ring
and we got in a fight and I got pissed
off at him, so I took the ring off and
I put it on the night stand next to my
bed and went to sleep. When I got up the
next morning, I felt naked. I reached over to put
my ring back on, and it was gone. And I
tore that room up. For three days, I looked everywhere
in that house for that ring and couldn't find it anywhere.
And like on the third day, I was in my
kids's room, which was the room next to mine, vacuuming
and cleaning, and some overwhelming urge something kept telling me
that ring is in this room because be careful. When
I'm thinking to myself, I need to be careful when
I run the swep, I'm gonna sweep this ring up,
and it's in here. It's in the room on the floor.
So I'm I'm all over the floor trying to find
this ring, can't find it. I know it's here. Then
I start moving the beds over and I pulled the
side of the carpeting up off the tax strip on
one side that was under Casey's bed. Slipped my hand
up under there where the padding was, and I didn't
didn't feel anything, but it kept telling me go further,
go further, go further, you'll find it. And I had
that carpet just about almost tore up that whole wall
on that side, and under the padding a little bit
almost the middle of the room. It was a small room,
but almost the middle of room there was that ring
under the carpeting and under the padding, which was staple
to the wood floor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: In the midt, like near the end of me ripping
up the padding, my mom comes in and she's like,
what in the hell are you doing? And she was
absolutely furious. And it was right about that time that
I got ahold of the ring and I whipped my
hand out from my look at this and she my
mom's mouth hit the floor. She's like what because she
knew that I'd lost this ring, and she goes, where
was that? Where was that ring? And I said it
was under the padding.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: It's like, how do you? First of all, how did
it get there? And second of all, how did I know?
You know? But it's weird. This is my life. This
has been that I've had weird stuff like this happened
to me my whole life. Thank God. Early on I
decided to start writing it down. And I've been keeping
a journal diary like since well. I did it as
a teenager for a while, you know, and then I
got I got bored with it after a while, and
then I had little kids, and I started it back
up again roun the June Brown the early eighties. I
started it back up again, started writing down every little
weird thing.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: Like I said before, I tried very hard to try
to be skeptical, even of my own stuff. And I
really feel like nobody really knows the whole answers to everything.
I mean, we have our we have our educated guesses
and our you know, our opinions, but as far as
actual factual stuff goes, hell, I got a whole lifetime
worth the stuff that I'm not quite sure what it
all means. I have my own theories and I have
my own hunches. I have what feels right to me
and my own opinions, but that's all they are. But
I have tried very very hard not to fall down
that rabbit hole. Uh oh, yeah, you know, it's so
easy when you're somebody like me who's had this kind
of life, it's really easy to blame every weird little
thing on something woo wooee and paranormal and get all
whipped up about it and get all scared and everything else.
And I didn't have time for that. I was a
single mom at that point, trying to raise two kids,
and I had to stay sane because these boys needed
you know what I mean. Yeah, So I did everything
in my power to try to find the rational explanation.
And then again as an investigator of UFO reports and
of paranormal reports, I did the same thing. I've always
tried to find the rational explanation, and you know, ninety
five percent of the time I could. Yeah, not only
with my own stuff, but other people's as well. It's
that five percent that got my panties in a twist,
ended up being ended up being you know, a couple
of books. But I have also figured out, you know.
Speaker 3: That.
Speaker 2: People get distracted by daily life. Daily life is so distracted, distracting.
And I feel like for every person out there like me,
who is out there telling our weird stories and flying
our freak flag for the world to see, there's probably
twenty five thousand other people that are listening to me
talk and tell my stories and thinking, well, I remember
something like this or this happened or that happened, but
they're never going to tell anybody. Yeah, So I've come
to the conclusion at the age of sixty four that
if you don't have a story, whether you tell it
or not, then you ain't paying attention. Because life is
just weird and we live in a weird, weird place
and we do and human beings are incredibly we're we
I don't think we fully remember what we're capable of,
you know, and things just happen all around us. So yeah,
so anyway, that's my.
Speaker 1: Story, and that's why I started this podcast because I
I saw an uptick in weird in reports of weird
things in nine in twenty nineteen, and that was right
before the pandemic, and I was like, what is going
on on? And my daughter MORGANA and a bunch of
my friends who all you know, noticed weird stuff. We
were all having weird stuff happening. People were reporting stuff
on the internet, and we were just like, you know,
what's going on? And I had a friend who had
urged me for years to do a podcast because she said,
you know, you've got all of this weird stuff that's
happened to you should tell those stories, and I said, well,
I mean, it's not going to hurt anything. Now, you know,
the the ex husband is no longer vindictively stalking me,
and you know, yeah it is. And you know my
family has calmed down or we don't talk or whatever,
and so yeah, I could probably do that. And so
when I started the podcast, I realized how many people
were out there who had weird stuff happen fairly often,
but they had no one to talk about it with.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: That's so hard having, you know, held on to stuff
alone for a long time and just telling like, you
know a few people, some of whom were around when
it happened, so we at least, you know, had that
we could say, yeah, you saw that too, right, Yeah,
I definitely yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know, I lived in Indiana in the middle
and I still do, you know, during I've been born
and raised here. All the weird stuff's happened here, and
it's like, you know, people don't sometimes. I don't think
they realized that the intruders event of June thirty eighty
three was forty years ago. We didn't have internet, yeah,
let alone Facebook or anything else. We didn't have email,
we didn't have text message. We didn't have cell phones.
Speaker 1: We couldn't find each other.
Speaker 2: No, No, I mean I could literally go years without
talking to anybody outside of the family about any of this.
And you know, we talked about it a lot when
in my family because this we had each other and
we were experiencing it together. It wasn't just me. One
thing I will say too, is had all of this
weirdness just happened to me over all this time? You
best be believing I would be the first person to
be asking, you know, am I crazy? And give me
some pills? When Bud, you know, when Bud first arranged
for me to be in New York and have some
psychological testing, I had six hours of verbal and written
psychological testing done, and one of the first things I
said to the guy, one of the guys doing the
test is with It's okay if you tell me I'm crazy? Yeah,
because I you know, do I know they make pills
for that, And if I can take a pill and
make all the shit go away, I'll be perfectly happy.
You know that point, That's how I felt because I
was young, and I was afraid, and I didn't understand
as I've as I've grown and matured and kind of
grown into my shoes here with this, and and my
understanding and my awareness has has grown, and uh, something
in me has woke up. I guess I Uh, I
wouldn't not have had these experiences. I wouldn't go back
and change anything, as scary and traumatic and hard as
it was at that point in my life. And you know, I,
like I said, I thought it was kind of nervous breakdown,
But I wouldn't go back and change anything because because
of that, I am where I'm at now, and where
I'm at now is a place where I'm I'm glad
to be and I'm striving to be even more. You know,
at this point, I'm going to be a work in
progress to the last breath while I'm here. But you know,
it's like I said, I could go literally years without
talking to anybody. And then when the investigator when the
investigation first started with Bud, it was predominantly done by
written snail mail, which was more dependable than it is now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it work fairly well at one time, and.
Speaker 2: Phone calls which were strategically placed after six pm because
the rates dropped for long distance calls and they never
lasted more than five minutes unless it was an emergency,
you know, because long distance phone calls were expensive. We
didn't have cell phones that you'd call over the world with.
You know, it was a different time. And also the
stigma around even reporting seeing a UFO was was harsh
and hard. And when Bud wanted to write the book,
when you know, after a few years of the investigation,
he's like, I think this is a really important case.
We've got trace you know, okay, we've got trace evidence,
you know, marks in the yard, we've got independent witnesses,
we've got medical evidence, we've got all this other stuff.
And he goes, I think this is a really important case,
and I want the world to know about it. And
he asked, my family. Wasn't just up to me, it
was an entire family. Can you know I want to
write a book about your story and your family. And
you know, our family had to talk about it for
a while before we because I'm my first instinct was
I don't think so nah, you know, I don't know
all that shit. You know, life's hard enough. I don't
want to have to deal with this either. And finally
we said, you know, he convinced us it would be
helpful to help other people that we weren't alone, that
this was a big, bigger than we knew, you know.
So the family said okay, and I ended up having
to take one for the team. I was the one
that came. But you know, and he promised anonymity. You know,
everybody had pseudonyms. Even the place Kopley Woods is not
a real place. That's a pseudonym for where it actually happened.
Because we had people coming to our house to take
pictures of our backyard and do stuff in the moment
before Intruders was even published, when it was just being
known in the uthology world, you know, in the circuit
I guess what you call it, where the conferences were.
We had people coming to the house and taking pictures
of the backyard. Somebody came and took some stuff out
of the yard. We weren't even home when that happened.
The neighbor told us that we that she'd seen him
in our backyard. And so we thought, if this gets
to be a book and people read it, what the
hell's going to happen to us? Then, you know, and
I had to think of my kids. I did not
want my children to be stigmatized by what their mother
talked about. You know, it wasn't far to them. And
I will I'm mama bear. I will throw some hands
anybody who messes with my children. I don't care. But
Bud said, you know, we'll do this as anonymously as
we can. And I did go with him and speak.
I did not speak. He pulled me up on the
stack and I'd answer a couple questions and I'd go
back and hide because I was so nervous. I thought
I was gonna faint. First time I ever stepped up
on the stage. But then, you know, I started meeting people,
and I started meeting people like me that I'd never
had the experience to do before, because I've been sitting
in the middle of Indiana, in the corn forever, all
by myself. You know. Yeah, But you know, it's a
whole different world now. It's you can buy alien head
t shirts at Walmart and they're all over TV. Marketers
use it in their advertising and their commercials and everybody.
It's cool. People are going out with flashlights trying to
have experiences. We didn't do that very much back in
the eighties. Now, and that's fine, if that's what you
want to do, you know, right on, more power do you.
But it's just a different world now than it was then,
and the stigma is a lot less. So I'm hoping.
One of the the reasons that I finally took my
real name and put it out there is when I
wrote Abducted with my sister. Our aim with that book
was to take you know, Bud's Intruders was our case
by the investigator's point of view. Abducted The Story of
Intruders Continues, which was written by myself and my older sister,
was the story, but its first person account. It was
us telling our own story. And that's when I at
my sister and I decided to use our real names
because I thought, Okay, if I'm going to put this
out here in my own words, I need to own
those words. It's not right that I would expect anybody
to even pay attention to it, let alone believe it,
if I won't even use my real name, you know.
And so this is what I did, right or wrong,
and it didn't turn out to be quite as scary
and horribles I thought it would be. Although I've had
I've been attacked over the years, I don't give a
shit what people think of me anymore. I'm sixty five,
you know, like me, Just move on. You know, there's
plenty of other people out there you can hate on.
I'm just a little old grandma here trying to leave
a legacy for my granddaughter. At this point. My whole
deal right now is trying to help as many people
as I can that are like me, who've had UFO experiences,
who've had paranormal experiences, who are stuck in the middle
between both, to see that you can come through that
come over, you can rise above it, you can use
it to you know, grow with your through yourself, you
know what I mean, and you can come out the
other end even better, and that you're not alone, because
that was one of the biggest things for me for
years and years and years, as I felt so alone
with nobody to talk to about this other than you know,
mom and my sisters and a couple friends and neighbors.
But I mean to be able to talk about it
to anybody, you know, and I wanted to put myself
out there and pay it forward because I was lucky.
I was more fortunate than most people like me because
I did have the support of my family and my
co workers and my friends and neighbors. I had that
support that most people don't have, and so I wanted
to help pay that forward as well, because I feel
like that's part of what I was supposed to be doing.
So when I wrote the book Extraordinary Contract, that was
my way of reaching out to people that have been
through the things I've been through and for them to
see that, you know, I'm okay, and you're gonna be
okay too, and don't be afraid. You know, life is
just weird and we're all here together and we'll hold
each other's hand, you know. And yeah, I monitor, I
moderate the I helped moderate the zero Midwest Facebook Experiencers
private page for people who've had these experiences want a
safe place to talk about their experiences where they're not
going to be judged. Nobody's scientists here, We're not going
to pick you apart or drudge. You just feel free
to cut loose and let it fly and and it's okay.
And so I have I'm doing that. I'm a member
of Zero. Yvonne Smith started this group about thirty years
ago out in California, and it was used to be
just for you know, the regional people. But now she's
she does Zoom meetings for out of town members, which
is I think great and it helps to connect people
that feel alone in wherever they're at, like I used
to be, and I think it's a great thing.
Speaker 1: Close Encounters Research Organization there later renamed Close and Counter
Resource Organization instead of research. So, yeah, it is support groups.
It's for people who have PTSD because of their experiences. Okay,
and I'm also it's over twenty years old. It got
its twentieth anniversary in twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm also re ironic. Yeah, it is. Actually I'm
also a supporting member. I think. I don't think that's
what they're calling me. Let's see, it's Hollywood Disclosure Alliance
and they are let me let me see if I
can figure out, uh, yeah, what They try to get
the information out. You know, Hollywood is making movies, documentaries
and stuff all the time now about UFO stuff, and
they're trying to get the correct information out, you know,
the stuff that's happening. Stephen Bassett and Dan harrow Ray
are the founders of this. It's called the Hollywood Disclosure Alliance,
and I'm I'm participating in that and only just because
I want to help get that write the accurate message out.
You know, if Hollywood is going to make millions of
dollars making movies about UFOs and aliens and stuff, at
least they can do it correctly and not jack it
all up. My Intruders, yeah, the mini series Intruders that
was done based very loosely on Bud's book Intruders. You know,
when when it first came out, I was kind of
disappointed in it and felt kind of angry and kind
of sad because they're other than a couple of brief
scenes in this whole documentary, In this whole docuseries, there
was nothing that remotely resembled my case or anything about
it or me. What Tracy Tourmay did was he bought
the option to use the title and anything in the
book he wanted, but then he took Hollywood license, you know,
and he ended up taking like all kinds of different
cases and combined them into different characters, fictional characters and
fictional events, but based on true stories. With exception of
two scenes that came directly out of Intruders. It was
nothing like me. But yet, when I went to speak
at a conference, somewhere or something. Inevitably I would be
people would be like, oh, they saw in the mini series,
and they that's why they came to hear me speak,
and they wanted to meet me, and they wanted to
tell me. They wanted to ask me about a certain
scene in the movie. And I hated to have to
tell them that wasn't me, that wasn't something that happened
to me. I know it was in that movie, but
this is what they did, and you know what I mean. Yeah,
But and so I was disappointed, and I felt bad
because I didn't. I didn't I had to tell the truth.
I wasn't gonna I didn't. I felt bad that these
people felt bad, but I didn't want to lie to them,
you know. And but in retrospect, now, if you watch
that mini series, it's probably one of the first things
on TV, because it's like ninety two or ninety three.
It was one of the first eighty two, one of
the first things on TV that that did the subject,
one of the first things that did the subject with
some respect and didn't make it look like a bunch
of clowns and jerks. There wasn't a laugh track, people
weren't giggling. There wasn't like porn music in the background
or some doofity stuff like that. You know, they actually
treated it with respect. And Mayor Winningham, who played my character,
the one that was based on me, actually called me
twice and one of to talk to me about the
two scenes that she was doing because she wanted to
They were emotional and she wanted to do right by me,
which I was extremely thankful for and impressed by. So
you know, but anyways, getting I felt like getting involved
in this Hollywood alliance would help to keep the you know,
the truth coming out, not a bunch of made up stuff,
and you know what I mean. And also I do
a podcast every Thursday live stream at eight pm Eastern
Standard Time with my buddy Greg Cable. It's called Midwest
Paara Talk Radio, which we did that ten years ago
for quite a long time. And then we had to
go on Hey Hiatus and I got bumped a second
shift and he moved to Georgia, and you know, life
just threw a bunch of monkey wrenches in our plan.
But now I'm retired and he's back in Indiana, so
we have resurrected Midwest Paara Talk and we're doing that again,
trying to get good information out and you know, talk
to people. Sometimes it's just me and him talking about stuff,
and I might talk about some of my experiences and
weird things that it might have happened. And then sometimes
we have guests that we talk to. You know, if
I can ever talk to anybody into coming on being
cast with us, it's you know, or Greg. He knows
that he's the paranormal side and I'm the UFO side
of Midwest para talk. But so I do that. I'm
stay busy trying to help people as best I can,
you know, And that's my whole thing. I feel like
there's a reason why this has happened to me, and
there's a reason why I'm here, and I think that
I'm supposed to be helping people with this because you know,
I already know that we don't live alone in this
universe or this world or even on this planet frankly,
but it's going to come as root away for a
lot of people, and when it does, I'll be there
to help them.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, me and a whole bunch of other people like you.
Speaker 1: Reducing the ontological shock for everybody else.
Speaker 2: That's I need a T shirt that says reducing the
ontological shock for you.
Speaker 1: That would be a funny T shirt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I hardly no one would understand what it means.
Speaker 1: I know, I know the occasional like I don't know,
anthropologist would be oh which ontological shock?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Oh buddy, sit down, Have we got some for you? Yeah?
Uh yeah, you know, I just I really. One of
the other things that I was struck by is you know,
as you said, when you moved out of your parents' home,
it followed you. When your sister of doubt, it follows her. Yep.
And there's one part in your uh in your book.
I think it's in the the Poltergeists in the Paranormal
chapter that you talk about your neighbor having a visit
from six little guys with pointed hoods. It never used
to be weird before you moved in.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's exactly she said. You know, this stuff didn't
happen until you moved in. I remember coming to me
one time, She's like, did you hear all the rattling
last night? Her? She lived above me, and she had
a balcony, you know, with the metal balcony, And I
guess it rattled like the go gets, you know, in
the middle of the night. And yeah, she of course
came downstairs first thing in the morning and blamed me
for it. You tell your friends to knock that ship off.
People are trying I'm to sleep here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that m I just that made me wonder.
You know, every time I've lived in an apartment, did I, like,
you know, destroy people's sleep and they just couldn't figure
out who had done it, what was happening?
Speaker 2: Yeah right, God knows what kind of wake I've left behind.
I'm telling you, there's and I see weird thing I
see weird. I don't know if I can just see
things that other people don't see. Like shopping is an
event for me. One time I was at the Walmart
and I was standing there looking at the massive choices
of salads of bag salads and cut vegetables and all
that jazz, and I felt somebody looking at me, you
know how you can just kind of feel somebody looking
at you sometimes. And I turned around and looked to
my left. There was this tall, skinny dude, tall look goth,
all black clothes, black pants, black shirt, black hair, black
eyes to me, really dark eyes, you know, and he was.
He had one of those red baskets in his arm,
which really stood out from all the black right, and
he was looking at me. He was his body was
faced straight ahead, but his head was turned right at me,
looking dead on me. And he had this most bizarre,
creepy smile on his face like you felt me, you know,
or something like that. Oh and yeah, And I was like,
and I turned, I turned back away from him, like,
don't do that to me, dude, that is not even cool.
And then when I turned and looked back again, he
was gone. And I'm like, hold on. I took off,
runting to the end of the aisle, and I looked
down the aisle and then I kind of trotted down
and was looking down each aisle as you know, there's
I looked over that whole store and he was nowhere
to be seen. And then it occurred to me later,
was he actually even there? I mean? Was I the
only one who could see him? Was this a test
to see if if I could see him? And why
was he so happy when I looked at him, like
he was like, oh, you see me? Because I went
she was pretty rude, but you know this, and now
I can imagine that this would happen to a lot
of people, but a lot of people would never dare
say it to anybody out loud because automatically I think
that she crazy. I think I'm crazy, you know. So
it's like, you know, but I'm just putting it out there.
I'm just saying, I'm all. I'm saying all the stuff
that people are too scared to say. I guess I
don't know, it happens.
Speaker 1: That is a good one.
Speaker 2: Though it happens that it happens all the time. I
mean not to be all the time, but happens every
day to somebody.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know why.
Speaker 2: I felt like it's some kind of test. You know,
I could be wrong. I always prefer everything that I
could be wrong, because I could be wrong. But I
almost felt like it was some kind of test to
see what I was capable of doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course it had to happen at Walmart.
Speaker 2: Well, everything happens at Walmart. Have you seen the people
of Walmart?
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, have you seen the website, Barbara, Yes, yeah,
it would happen at Walmart. I know that.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: My husband and I uh had this series of stories
that we used to tell each other, but then we
started writing it down. We've been writing it down for
a million years now. And it had all these characters
in it, and they all had very specific looks to them.
And a few times when we owned a bookstore here
in Athens, you know, we'd be sitting there and a
person would come in and he would look exactly like
one of our characters, and he would look at stuff
and look at us and sort of nod and and
then wander off and we'd never see him again. And
we live in a very small town. I mean, it's
a college town, so when the college students are here,
there's a lot of a lot more, you know, a
lot of energy, a lot oh tons of energy. There's yeah, yeah, lots,
and we would never see them again. And and there,
you know, there were people that we'd see. They'd come in,
they wouldn't talk to us, and then we'd you know,
go to the grocery store and we'd see him or
we'd see him walking you know, uptown or up on
the green. You know. But these people that were in
our story, we'd only see him like once and then
they were gone. It was almost as if they were
like Hey, thanks for making me hey, or hey, thanks
for hearing my life story and telling it. Hey. You
know they just disappear. And yeah, that's one of the
ones I don't tell most people because you know they're
just going to be like, yeah, all right, lady, Yeah
that's normal.
Speaker 2: I just laugh. I laugh a lot. I crack jokes
because you know what, sometimes if you can't. If I
didn't laugh, I just cry.
Speaker 1: That's that's how I am crying. Is is you know,
there's a place to cry, there's a time to cry,
but you don't want to do it all the time.
Speaker 2: No, man, I get a headache when I cry.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I did enough of that for a day. I did
that enough in my younger years. I bank some. So
I'm good.
Speaker 3: Yea.
Speaker 1: So one of the one of the really interesting stories. Well,
you tell various stories about you've seen physical craft, but
you also have seen lights that come out of the
sky and then land, and you've also seen the smaller
ones that come in and out of your house. This
is a thing that I experienced a lot. And when
you told the green ping pong ball it what it
messed up your television? Did it turn your television off?
Speaker 2: It turned the TV off. It made the telephone ring. Jeez,
I'm trying to I know it cut the light off.
Mom was sitting next to but and I'm trying to
think it. I don't think maybe the light bulb broke,
you know. I mean this was thirty some years ago. Yeah,
but yeah, it was. It was me, my mom, my
two kids. My kids were on the floor playing. Mom
was on the couch and I was in a chair.
We were watching TV. Daddy had one of those big,
big screen TVs, but it was one of the big
horse kind you know before the flower.
Speaker 1: Yeah, millions of pounds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a rear projection TV or something like that. Anyways,
we were in the living room. Dad was at work.
It was nighttime. It was you know this, it was
dark out. Lights were on, and it just so happened
that it happened. I mean when it happened, I just
happened to look up at the instant that it happened,
and I saw the ball of light. It was kind
of in the middle of the room a little bit
was closer to my mom and the couch where she
was sitting, and about head height from her on the couch,
and I don't know, it was like ping pong ball size,
but it was bright and it was green. Green is green,
like intense, Like I call it paranormal green, you know,
I'm talking about like floresta.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that weird, super weird green.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And my mom covered she dick put down and
covered her face and cut her eyes closed. The kid's
heads were down and their eyes were closed. And of
course I'm like, head up, dead at it, staring right
at it. I'm like, the hell is that? At the
exact moment cuts off the TV, I believe the light
bulb breaks in the lamp that's Mom sitting next to
and the telephone rang, but it only rang one time,
you know, it's like a trunk ring or whatever. It
was a landline. A phone rang, Yeah, And I remember
my mom later, my kids were freaked out. I'm like,
what the hell was that? I remember later my mom
talking to my dad. My dad was an electrician, and
she's like, kind of Dad's like, there's no way on
the planet that a light bulb breaking in a lamp,
you know, ten feet away, it's going to make a
green ball a light in the middle of the living room.
And that also cannot shut the TV off and make
the phone ring. Either what it was, what happened, I
have no idea. I've had people question that it was
like either the beginning or the end of an entire
event that none of us has any recollection of that.
I don't know. I couldn't tell you. But you know, again,
this is the kind of thing that if it was
just happening to me, I'd be like, okay, my mind.
But my mother was with us. Mom was there, the
kids were there.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It wasn't like I was there by myself. So yeah,
that was bizarre. And then I'm when we lived out
on the farm after I got moved out, the kids
were older, I lived on a farm and my late husband,
I think he had already passed away by then, and Dave,
my current husband, was there, his daughter was there, and
I remember we were in the living room, I think,
or the dining room, and this little ball of white,
bluish white light came right through the living room window,
right through the living room, through the dining room, whizzed
right past our heads, went in the kitchen, whizzed around,
and then shot back through the dining room and back
out the dining room window. Little ball of light bluish
white light. Probably I'm going to say, maybe the size
of a dime, you know, or a little bit tiny, yeah,
not big at all. And the same thing happened to
me with the same kind of light, a little bluish
ball of light. It was like two thirty in the
morning and I was coming home. I had been at
the club. I was at the bar with a couple
of girlfriends having a beer, you know. I was two
thirty in the morning. I was at the intersection of
like Washington Street and Post Road or something in Annapolis,
and it was I mean, there was lights everywhere, in
street lights. It was like suburb or you know, I
don't know how to what you call that, like stores
and shopping plazas everywhere. And I'm sitting in my car
at the red light and this blue ball of light
comes down out of the sky, comes right through the
glass of my passenger side, through my car, right in
front of me, and out out the door, I mean
out the other side the other glass and up and
I'm like, what the hell because and I was not drunk,
I hadn't been drinking.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 2: Bizarre. And it was again another little bluelue ball, a
light little little bluish white balls a light I've even
had in the house we lived in on Washington Street,
the little place we rented. This was before I moved
to the farmhouse, and all the blue ball stuff was happening.
That did not sound good.
Speaker 1: Sorry, but uh well, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: This little house that we were living in, weird stuff
was happening. And I would walk down the hallway and
I would be hitting the forehead with a drop of water,
a big drop of water. Or I'd be in the
living room and I'd get just out of nowhere. I'd
get hit in the forehead, always right here in the
middle of my forehead, a drop of water to where
I wet. You can feel it. It was wet, but
yet there was We could never find where it came from.
There was no leaks, there was no ceiling, wet nothing.
It's just like a drop of water were just manifest
out of nowhere and hit me right between the eyes,
like right you know, on my forehead, right between my
eyes where they say your third eye is right there,
a drop of water. And I had that happen to me.
That also happened to me in the apartment that I
lived in before I moved into that little bungalow. It
happened to me there as well, didn't happen to anybody
else in the house, just me and I find we
got to the point where we called it my baptism,
that was getting baptized. That's what my ex husband told me.
I was being.
Speaker 1: Baptized, baptized, drop by drop.
Speaker 2: It just you know, okay, and now see such bizarre shit.
And there was a time in my life when I
wouldn't dream of telling a soul this stuff. But like
I said, I'm to the point now where I don't
care if you think I'm crazy. You ain't alone, because
I probably thought I was too, you know, for a
long time. But now that I have found out that
there's so many people, there's more people that have stories
like this than not. They just a that's what I've
I believe. I believe that's a fact.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've started to actually believe that too.
Speaker 2: And I feel like the more I go out and
act a fool and tell people this crazy stuff, the
more comfortable they'll feel to talk too. I mean, you're
not judging anybody. I don't judge people's experiences. I don't
I don't have opinions. If you say that that's what happened,
then that's what happened, you know what I mean. I'm
not here put on this earth to question you. You
go have your experience, and it's you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, I never I never judge anybody's experiences
because I'm.
Speaker 2: The last person that just should be judging.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly. I've already had weirder stuff happened to me.
I don't want to. I don't want to, you know,
say hey, it didn't happen that way, or no, it
wasn't that it was the I've had people when I've
talked with them, they're so very strongly set in their
idea of what the UFO phenomena and the non human
intelligences or beings or whatever you want to call them,
spirits whatever what they are, that they can't see past, yeah,
the what they've created in their experience. And so they'll
you know, oh, well that was the pleiadeans that we're
talking to you, and you know, they're they're very positive
and blah blah blah blah blah, and you know, and
and and I just I just I nod politely.
Speaker 2: I don't like okay, because I don't know. You could
be right. I don't know, you know that, yeah, you
could be right, or you might not be I don't know.
But I'm like, yeah, I'm very fluid, and I just
I mean, I just roll with with it and try
to figure it out for myself. I can only speak
for myself and my experiences. I can only see from
my perspective. I try to see from others. You know,
you can be as closed minded and be positive I
mean for it as you can be closed minded and
be as and be a debunker. You know, you can
go too far either way. But I try to remain
kind of in the middle and healthily open to anything.
My attitude is, if you can think it, it can
happen somewhere. Maybe not in this planet or this dimension,
but somewhere. You know, if you can think it, it
can be and maybe we even created I don't know.
I'm that open minded, that's I know, but I but
you know, I'm just, and I change over the years
my opinions and thoughts about things from thirty five years ago.
I go back and read my diary and some of
the things that I wrote and things that I thought
back then totally different than what I feel now. But
I've got years of experience and years of knowledge. I've
learned things and met new people. My opinions may change
somewhat as I change and grow, you know what I mean.
So there's that too, you know. That's why I always
preface everything that I can only talk about my experience
and my perspective, and I could be wrong and it.
You know, these are my opinions. But opinions change just
like people do. People grow and change.
Speaker 1: So yeah, the facts remain the same that you know.
Speaker 2: When the facts start changing, that's that's when that's when. Yeah,
that's that's when it becomes a problem. I mean, the
basic fact for me, like when I tell the story
of the mark in the yard and how all that
happened and went down, it is what it is. That's
exactly how I remember it, and I as I tell it,
I'm almost reliving it, you know, And that is is
what it is now for what it was. That's where
it's like, I don't know. I'm not sure because I
don't and I'm not a science I'm a hairdresser and
I worked in a factory for fifteen years. I'm not
a scientist or a physicist, or well they're scientists, but
you know what I mean, I'm just I'm just a
regular person trying to get through life and have a
weird one.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, have you ever run across somebody whose
story was just so strange that it took you aback
for a second or do you just roll with it
and go, yep, these things be happening.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I have met a few people that kind
of made me go wow, you know, But then I
try to I try to put myself in their shoes.
I try to and I ask questions, you know, I
try to ask questions that I think might be useful
to help me kind of maybe figure out. You know.
I've met some people that I don't think they want
to figure things out. They like it the way it is,
you know what I mean, or the like the way
they've made it in their heads. But yeah, I've met
a few people and their stories are like wow. But then,
you know, I try to take the whole person in too,
not just their story. I mean, I am just, I
am not just June thirty eighty three. I am a
complex you know, being with I'm like an onion with
so many layers, and that's why I try try to
look at other people. You know, I don't always when
I hear a really fantastical story or really something that's
really wild, you know, I try to look under the
layers and see what I can see, you know what
I mean, never judging, because it's not my place. I'm
not paying their bills, you know, I'm not paying their bills,
I'm not sleeping with them. You know. It's like, you know,
it's never my place to judge anybody. You know, everybody's
here to have their own experience and however they're supposed
to have it. Some of it's pretty interesting. I mean,
I've I meet a lot of really interesting, cool people.
I do find that the more people that have had
more interesting experiences, they seem to be you know, I
have met some of the smartest people, intelligent people. Their
minds just go to places I would have never dreamed,
but I get it. You know, I've met some of
the smartest people because of this whole phenomenon, and just
some of the most wonderful people, some of the most
empathic and connected and loving people that I've ever met
in my life, you know, because of this so there's
that too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think the empathic and loving and I
think that's very important with this kind of phenomena to
extend that to other experiencers, to their I mean, and
to the rest of the world is well, but I
because of the stigma and because of the fear that
people have of revealing oh yeah this, this happened to me. Yeah,
then I think we should just be as open as
we can be, open hearted as we can be, and kind.
And I think that it does more for the world
to be kind to each other than.
Speaker 2: You know, yes, positive and a tragedy positive, you know
what I mean. So I feel like if you are putting,
if you put out positive, good thoughts and vibes and
and things out into the universe, into the world, it's
going to come back to you, you know, double triple.
And And I really feel strongly that what we think
in our heads is extremely important because I feel like
we are very human beings, are very powerful, energetic creatures,
and we are capable of things that we can't even
imagine that we don't remember that, we don't believe that
we can, but we are we can, and our thoughts
can change the world. Everything that you see in your room,
everything around you began in somebody's mind as a thought.
Think about that. Everything starts with a thought, Everything begins
right here, and we have control of that, you know.
So I try to be I'm human, and I get frustrated,
and I get annoyed with things, and you know, I
get it. Sometimes I get annoyed with people, and I
have to stop myself and take a deep breath and
try to pull myself up above that and say, you know,
just put good out there and hopefully it sticks. You know,
throw that spaghetti on the wall. Hopefully some of that
will stick. Of course, we didn't call it spaghetti. We
called it someuse. But you know, you know, so I
was braised to believe. My mom always said mind over matter,
mind over matter. You know, there's anything you can't accomplish
in your life. There's nothing that we can't accomplish together
as a species. If we want it bad enough and
we put it in our minds that we're going to
do it, it will happen, you know, just like they said,
if you build it, they'll come.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Didn't work with Disney in Europe, but hey, they tried,
they tried.
Speaker 2: Yeah, give them points for that, yep, but uh anyway, yeah,
so see, And that's another thing. My attitude about this
has come so far from this single mom living you know,
on food stamps in the section eight apartment, which where
I was at one point when you know my kids
were little, you know, to and struggling every day. And
I'm not you know, my husband and I retired, we're
on Social Security. We're not rich by any means, but
we have everything we need. We have food and sheltered
and clothing and water, much more than ninety percent of
the world, you know, And for that, I'm thankful and grateful,
but I'm full, you know. Inside. It's what you know,
I've grown so much and changed so much. I've awakened
something inside of me that's connected me to the entire
world and all the life in it. And it I
didn't used to be this person on June thirtieth, nineteen
eighty three. I wasn't this person I am now. But
I am this person I am now because of June thirtieth,
nineteen eighty three. Something happened that night. Something and I
always said, Debbie died and Debbi two point I was born.
Something flipped a switch in me and I went crazy
for a while because it was more than I could handle.
But I managed to to figure it out, you know,
and get my sea leg or whatever. I wish. I'm
gonna have my bff come on our show, our podcast
one day, because her and I were talking. We've known
each other fifty five years. That's how long we've been
in each other's life, you know. And she always says,
I wish that I could tell these people what a
change that I've seen in you over the years. You
know how different you are, not just physically, but mentally
and spiritually, the difference, you know. And I'm like, okay, well,
come on the show and you can tell everybody. But
it's you know, it is, and it's not just me.
I've seen this in other people that I've known for many,
many years and have been through similar things with me.
I see this pattern of change and growth mentally and spiritually,
psychically or you know, my experiences went from the physical
to the metaphysical. I guess, you know, but you know,
it's all connected, it's all part of it. It's all
that intertwined, this this network, this mesh of stuff that's
somehow creating this positive change. I don't know I sound
like a crazy ass person now, but you know.
Speaker 1: No, you don't that. My feeling about all of this
is that it's supposed to change us. It's not supposed
to just happen. It doesn't just happen. It happens for
a reason. Yes, and there are some who are unlucky.
It doesn't change them for the positive. I think, well,
something more there eventually, Yeah, it's eventually.
Speaker 2: Something told me a long time ago, when I was young,
in my twenties, something said to me, and I don't
know what it was or when it was how it
got in my head, but something said to me, don't
be afraid, because fear will slow it down. Fear slows
down the process. Don't be afraid. There's nothing to be
afraid of. When I participated in that Observer's podcast or
that Observers the documentary that was on Amazon Prime a
couple of years ago, and I participated in that with
Whitley Streeber, Linda how Jimmy, Jimmy Church, William Henry, Richard Dolan,
and I was asked to participate by Lynda Howe, who
was a friend of mine have known for twenty five years,
and I said yes, I would because I don't really
like being in front of the camera that much. I'm
I'm great with radio, you know, but I don't like
you know, I get real self conscious. But the last
line in that that I had, and the producer asked
me if there was one thing I wanted to tell
the people out there like me, one thing? What did
I think the most important message was that I wanted
to give. And I had preyed on this and I'm
not even religious, but I had the night before. I'm like,
put the words in my mouth. What is it that
I'm supposed to say? What? You know, make it come
out of my mouth when it needs to, you know,
just guide to help me because I don't. I don't.
I don't know why I'm here, but I am so
use it, use me whatever. I opened my mouth and
the only thing I could think of to say was
don't be afraid. And that was it. They ended the
whole That was the last line of the whole documentary.
Don't be afraid.
Speaker 1: That's funny. Little always say.
Speaker 2: We're we're We're still here. I mean, look what we
do to each other. If I were an alien species
flying around and I happen to see a planet with
a bunch of fools like this down here, I'd be like, bye, bam.
You know, if they if they wanted to get back,
you know, if they wanted to get rid of it us.
I believe that would have happened quite a long time ago.
You know. There may be some species out there like
those things are nuts. Just eradicate them, get rid of them.
They're worthless. Then there might be another species that like,
oh no, they're cute, just like I do with my
Oh I love my doggies, you know. But I feel
like if we were going to be extincted by something
out there, we had already be gone. We're here for
a reason, yeah, and somebody wants us here. And I
see so much beauty in the world. There are so
many absolutely gorgeous places on this planet that take your
breath away. I have seen beauty in a human being
spirit that brings me to tears, and I can't even
speak because of somebody and the beauty that I've seen
in a single living human being, you know, sitting on
the side of the road, when I see a person
in the sidewalk homeless and people are stepping over them,
I don't see a homeless person. I see somebody's child
and I want to hug them and I want them
to know that someone loves them, you know what I mean.
This is the only place in the universe that you
can feel that that's important, you know, and it's here,
and I just want people to connect with that, and
don't be afraid, and don't be afraid. There's a line
in a song that I it's seen. It sounds very corny,
but it's the soul afraid of dying that never learns
to live, you know. And you know, I had a
near death experience when I gave birth to my son,
you know, my oldest son, who's forty five now. I
had a near death experience almost I died twice, actually
had to be revived twice, but when and that changed me,
and that changed the way I thought about death. I know,
we don't. I don't cry at funerals, and people look
at me like I'm crazy or are disrespectful. But there
there's not They're not gone, They're just moved on, you
know what I mean. I see things differently than people.
I see things differently than other people now, and I
sometimes it's hard to verbalize for me, I'm not the
best speaker in the world. I'm not the best writer
in the world. Sometimes it's really hard for me to
get my emotions across to people. And I feel like
it would be so much easier if I could just
go inside of you and you could feel me for
a second and know it all that what I know,
and then we be done. But then I realize, you know,
that might be easy, but then it's not going to
mean what to you? Is it meant to me? You
have to come to it a certain way in your
own time for it to be meaning to you what
it needs to mean, you know. So bang way, Yeah,
there's that too.
Speaker 1: I thought that people who cry at funerals aren't crying
for the dead. They're crying for themselves because they missed them.
Speaker 2: And I get that, you know, and that's cool. I
cried when my mom died, But then some should happen
that night, which she promised me that we had this
pact that we were gonna if she could do anything
at all to let me know I was right, that
we would go on that she would, and she did,
and from that moment on, I was elated, and I
was good, you know, I realized with her, with my
mother's death, with my mother in law's death, with my
husband's death, I realized, you know, this is just there.
This is just going to be a different way of living.
You know. I started referring to my body as that
meat sack full of water I'm driving around in that's
starting to fall apart.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does have a warrant used by date.
Speaker 2: I think mine expired about three months ago. But yeah,
I'm gonna keep driving this bus until the wheels fall off,
I guess. But but yeah, see things like that, that's
how I changed. The experiences that I've had have created
this and have shaped me and molded me in this way.
I've also had strange I've also had traumatic experiences just
regular life, you know. I think you read in the book. Yeah,
I mean my husband, my late husband committed suicide. He
did it in front of me, with the twelve games,
me and all the sheriffs in Howard County, you know.
But I can talk about it now. It's thirty years
some years ago. But I can talk about it and
I don't cry. I mean I can think about him
and feel happy and remember the things and know that,
you know, whatever the powers are that be felt that
for whatever reason, I needed to be there, that I
would be strong enough to be there in his hour
of need. And I was. It taught me that I'm
stronger than I ever gave myself credit for. And I
came through this and beyond this, and I you know,
and I think I'm here to help other people in
this situation come through this, to reach my hand out
for them so they can come through too, you know.
And the tornado, good god. I mean I had a
house drop on me then and lost everything I owned
in twenty thirteen, you know, I started thinking, who did
I piss off? You know, I've had a lot of
trauma that isn't even UFO related or weird related, you know,
and I just keep drugging along. Good therapy helps too,
But you know what therapy is beautiful and it is
it is, it is. I suggest it for everyone. My
therapist knows about my weird woo woo stuff. She's read
my book, and I mean she's cool. We've even done
EMDR therapy on the June thirty eighty three incident because
it was so traumatic, you know, and this has been
very helpful. I wish everyone had trauma could do that.
I really do. Never be afraid to ask for help
if you need it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: If you don't need some help sometime or another, you
ain't living.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And most therapists are way more open minded about
weird stuff than you think they would.
Speaker 2: Be, especially nowadays. I mean I don't I wouldn't have
you know, thirty years ago, I wouldn't have mentioned it,
but I got you know, now I find this a
woman I thought, damn, you know, if I'm gonna get
a hold of this anxiety thing that I've wrestled with
since I was a child, then I need to put
all my cards out on the table. I need to
work on all of it, not just select pieces like
cherry pick, because it's all part of me, you know,
the good, the bad, and the ugly. So it's been
great anyways, thanks for taking the time to have me on.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: You are welcome, and you're welcome to come back if
you want to if you ever have something you need
to say and don't want to do it just on
your podcast. You're welcome online anytime.
Speaker 2: Oh, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. And you know what,
I have a website too, if you want to put
it in there.
Speaker 1: I will put it in the show notes for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's it's deb'shome dot www dot deb'shome dot com.
I've had this web I've had this website for about
twenty five years and it's full of science news and
you know uap ufo, you know news and stuff like that.
There's some stuff in there about you know, things that
have happened to me and people can get to know
me a little better and know the event. And there's pictures.
There's some of my art on there that I need
to update that terribly if that part is a little old.
But the most important thing is that you can write
to me through that. My my emails connected to that,
So people can write to me if they want to
share their experience with me, and it will go nowhere else,
you know, but to me if they want and that,
but they just so I'm there and they can reach
out and I always try to answer every email that
I get. I had a post office box for years
before you know, the computer and stuff. So but yeah,
so if you could put that on there and then
people can if they want to contact me, they can
contact me through my website.
Speaker 1: Definitely, that's awesome.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Well, that's all for this week's episode of the Six
Degrees of John Keel podcast. If you have any questions
or thoughts about the podcast, or would like to come
and talk about your experiences of the paranormal, you can
contact us at six D JK six seven at gmail
dot com. We promised even answer you, and we are
always happy to hear from you.
Speaker 2: Thank you spill a spoil having
Speaker 1: Spe