WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.759 --> 00:00:08.320 With Laurent's segle and from London and Gerard Reed from Berlin. 2 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:13.160 This is redefining energy today. I'm redefining energy. We're going 3 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:16.559 to talk about critical minerals and a particular those in 4 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:17.719 relation to batteries. 5 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:22.280 Yeah, because there are hundreds of definition of critical minerals. 6 00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:24.879 If you look at the Europe and the US, they 7 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:27.480 have a list, but of course it's not the same 8 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:31.120 thing on the list. And right now you've got the 9 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.840 rare earths and everybody's getting very excited about rare earths 10 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:39.799 between Greenland and Ukraine. And so at some point we say, look, 11 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:43.200 we are not specialists. We need to bring in a 12 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:47.039 specialist to discuss critical minerals, how critical they are. 13 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:48.200 Yeah. 14 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:51.000 I think that the word critically is quite interesting around 15 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:54.960 because it means different things to be people. So there's 16 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:57.679 critical way you define it as rare, whether it's not 17 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:01.039 a lot of something or good in the sense that 18 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:03.719 there might be a lot of us, but there are 19 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:06.519 only in a few countries, and those particular countries might 20 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:09.719 be countries that are unstable or countries that you don't 21 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:13.079 want to be the Panada. So it's a very interesting 22 00:01:13.159 --> 00:01:15.159 phrase that critical resources. 23 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:19.680 Our guest today is Richard Ted. Richard is the chief 24 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:23.799 investment officer in a company called tech Met. Now tech 25 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:28.519 met is very interesting in the sense that it's originally 26 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:32.560 a joint venture between the Pentagon and Energy and Minerals Group. 27 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:36.280 Now it has really grown attracted a lot of new investors, 28 00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:39.920 including Golf investors. The mission of tech met is to 29 00:01:39.959 --> 00:01:44.120 develop a non China based supply chain in critical minerals. 30 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:48.159 So they've invested in Littal, nickel, cobalt, rearers, and of 31 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:50.760 course recycling, so there's a bit of processing as well. 32 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:54.280 We're going to talk about all of those aspects. Before 33 00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:56.159 we do it, I just want to make a little 34 00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:00.640 caveat the global legion market into A twenty four was 35 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:05.640 ten billion dollar, the rare earth market was fifteen billion dollar, 36 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:09.319 the copper market was two hundred and fifty billion dollar, 37 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:12.960 and your market three trillion dollar. 38 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:17.479 So critical but niche, Well, let's bring them on the show. 39 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:20.360 Richard, Welcome to the show. 40 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:23.960 Thanks, Laron, really excited to be invited on. I'm a 41 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:25.439 big fan of what you guys do. 42 00:02:26.199 --> 00:02:28.240 We are a big fan of what you're doing because 43 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:31.599 critical materials people talk about critical matteral all the time. 44 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:36.000 A lot of people get very heated around Joe politics, 45 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:40.439 rare Earth and all those criticulats. Can you please explain 46 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:44.319 a bit what's going on and what are those critical materials? 47 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.759 Yeah? I think the word critical minerals of critical materials 48 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:50.960 has been thrown around so much now that it's almost 49 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:56.960 lost meaning because everyone projects onto that phrase what they 50 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.919 wanted to mean. In the public sphere, when it's used, 51 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.719 it often leads to more confusion than clarity, you know. 52 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:08.479 Simply put, a critical material is something that you're worried 53 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:09.919 you're not going to be able to get in the 54 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:13.039 future at its basic level. But I think we have 55 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:16.639 to kind of unpack the term a little bit into 56 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:21.439 two kind of major categories. One is scarcity, and the 57 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:26.680 scarcity of minerals is simply an economic issue. The last 58 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:29.919 barrel of oil will have an infinite price, the last 59 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.800 kilo of lithium will have an infinite price. The price 60 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:38.560 mechanism over the long run will ration ultimately every resource 61 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:43.879 that humanity needs for economic activity. If, for example, the 62 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.919 lithium price ran up to hundreds of thousands of dollars 63 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:50.319 per kilo, we could set up a dle project on 64 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:53.520 the ocean and just process lithium from the ocean because 65 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.599 it would be economic to do so. So the price 66 00:03:56.680 --> 00:04:00.319 mechanism in the long run rations everything, and therefore no 67 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:03.319 mineral is critical in the sense that we're going to 68 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:07.639 run out of it. However, certain critical minerals are crucial 69 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:14.000 for certain new economic and technological applications, most obviously electric 70 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:18.519 vehicles and lithium ion batteries. And the reason some critical 71 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:21.920 minerals like lithium are being defined as such now is 72 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:27.439 that they are needed in ever greater quantities because of 73 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.959 booming demand because of an s curve adoption of a 74 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:34.439 new technology, and they're having to grow off a very 75 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:38.399 very low base. The lithium market before the EV boom 76 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:40.839 was just a couple one hundred thousand tons a year, 77 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:43.680 and now we're talking by twenty thirty it needs to 78 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:47.240 be a three million ton of year market. So there 79 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:51.480 is a concern around the ability of the production side 80 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:54.759 to keep up with the demand growth. There's a sense 81 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:58.560 that as we scale evs, will we have enough units 82 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:01.800 of lithium to meet the consumer demand. That makes it 83 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:07.079 critical in one sense, but actually the true criticality in 84 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:10.800 the West about these materials is that there's plenty of 85 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:15.800 lithium available to America and Europe in parts of the 86 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.240 world where we can go and build minds quite easily. 87 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:22.399 But you can't put dirt into a battery. You have 88 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:25.639 to put a specialty chemical into a battery. And what's 89 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:28.959 really critical about things like lithium and nickel and cobol 90 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:32.680 is that they've got to be processed and refined into 91 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.639 usable specialty chemicals which can then be put into batteries. 92 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:39.920 And it's that part of the supply chain which has 93 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:45.079 been up completely and utterly concentrated within China and in 94 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:50.199 the context of geopolitical tensions and new trade wars, and 95 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:52.839 there has been a lot of newsflow in the last 96 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:57.920 few weeks around this. It's about the West's ability to 97 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:02.439 have control over its own own industrial destiny, to be 98 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:07.079 able to produce the specialty chemicals that these critical minerals 99 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:11.519 get turned into insufficient quantities for their own manufacturing of 100 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:14.720 their own ebs without having to go to China to 101 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:18.319 get the ingredients. Because China, as it has shown, is 102 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.800 quite willing and able to use its control over these 103 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:25.920 supply chains to turn off the taps and basically create 104 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.120 leverage over Western companies and Western governments. 105 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:33.120 So Richard, really that's a brilliant beginning, and there's a 106 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:35.560 lot there that you've said. I'd love to just sort 107 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:38.560 of dig in a little bit into, first and foremost, 108 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:41.639 not the processing side, but the mining side, because if 109 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:44.199 I understand when I look at the Chinese and if 110 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:46.199 I look at what they've done, they control the whole 111 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:48.560 value chain. That's the reality of it. And as you 112 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:52.279 describe them, these are critical materials. Now, let's go back 113 00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:54.879 to the mining side, and I'd love to hear what 114 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:58.759 worries you in terms of materials. Which materials you go, Oh, 115 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:00.519 my god, we're gonna have a shit oritage of that 116 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:01.600 twenty thirty. 117 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:04.839 I'm going to just be kind of quite straightforward this one, 118 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:06.920 and I'm going to pick the lowest hanging fruit and 119 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:10.240 talk about lithium again, because I think lithium is the 120 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:16.839 one which illustrates the interplay of supply demand, economics and 121 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:21.079 geopolitics the best. We need about three million tons per 122 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:23.959 annum production of lithium by twenty thirty to meet the 123 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:28.079 conservative demand projections of how much lithium we need to 124 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:30.759 build the number of batteries that are being planned to 125 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.680 be put into electric vehicles and energy storage systems, and 126 00:07:34.759 --> 00:07:38.399 let's not forget the new markets emerging in the field 127 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.720 of drones and robots like the Optimus robot of Tesla. 128 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:45.519 Lithium price ran up, as we all know, to a 129 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.920 very very high level in twenty twenty two and then 130 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:53.160 has crashed back down to around ten thousand dollars a ton. 131 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:58.800 That crash has largely been engineered by the Chinese, who 132 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:04.800 brought on stream some very marginal sources of lithium through 133 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:09.600 lipidolite mining domestically within China, which are very low grade mines, 134 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:12.680 very high cost, very hard to make any money out 135 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:15.959 of them. And so we're now in a lithium market where, 136 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:20.040 at ten thousand dollars a ton lithium carbon and equivalent price, 137 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:24.680 very very few if any of the Western projects or 138 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:27.480 the projects, let's say that are outside of Chinese hands, 139 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:29.959 that are trying to be developed in Canada, in the US, 140 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.960 in Latin America, in Africa, in Europe that is below 141 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:38.759 the incentive price that private capital markets in the West 142 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.919 where investors are going to get the IRRs they need 143 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:46.000 to go and back those projects. So without an increase 144 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.679 in the lithium price, over the next eighteen months. We're 145 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.559 going to have a tremendous shortage of lithium in twenty 146 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:58.200 thirty because the mines that need to be built to 147 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:01.960 satisfy that demand to break ground now, because the lead 148 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:05.759 time to get them into production is quite long. So 149 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:09.679 if I'm worried about any critical minerals shortages at this 150 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:13.639 point in time, it's lithium. And the challenge is that 151 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:18.679 China is doing this deliberately to hamstring and kind of 152 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:21.480 handcuff the options that the West will have in the 153 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:27.159 future to determine its own industrial policies with this technology. 154 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:30.600 And so we in the West and particularly the United States, 155 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:33.679 which is leading the charge in all of this, governments 156 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.639 have to work hand in glove with the private sector 157 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:43.480 to invest counter cyclicly and fight back against China and 158 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:47.279 start to stand up some of these lithium minds now 159 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:51.080 during this bear market, while prices are depressed, so that 160 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:56.200 we are not caught shorthanded when the inevitable next upswing 161 00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:57.399 in the market occurs. 162 00:09:57.960 --> 00:09:59.600 Can I just make a point, as you talk about 163 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:02.320 opsing in the market, I mean, if lithium prices go 164 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:04.840 back up, there'll be no upswing in the market, because 165 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:07.559 what you're doing is you're making the batteries more expensive, 166 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:11.159 which means that you're pushing evs out. So my view, 167 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:13.559 i'd actually take a view of that, we're not going 168 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:15.399 to see lithium prices going up. 169 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:17.919 The question is, how are you going to get three 170 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:20.159 million tons a year of lithium onto the market at 171 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:22.840 ten thousand dollars a ton. Where's it going to come from? 172 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.679 How many minds can profitably produce lithium at that level. 173 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:29.120 And that's a very good question. So then what you're 174 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:32.039 actually sort of saying is that actually the EV race 175 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:33.000 is going to slow down. 176 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:37.639 Something's got to give. The problem with commodity markets in 177 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:43.399 general is that the supply response is very inelastic in 178 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:46.840 the short term to the movement in the price. In 179 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:50.879 the long term, the mining industry generally is able to 180 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.600 respond to higher price incentives. And there is a lot 181 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.960 of good news in the West. The dle revolution, which 182 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:01.919 is the kind of equivalent of the racking revolution in oil, 183 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:07.360 is already here. It's real. Exon is building DL plants 184 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:11.240 in the Smackover formation. In America, tech met is building 185 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:14.159 a DL plant on the salt and sea. DL is 186 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:17.480 being stood up in Argentina as well, and these are 187 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:21.320 much easier, simpler, lower cost projects to bring on stream 188 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:25.759 relative to large Spogyman projects, which are traditional minds, which 189 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:30.799 then have to be fed into very capital intensive hydroxide refineries. 190 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:34.440 Richard, just for the non technical people that are listening 191 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:38.320 to this, could you explain what DA is and really 192 00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:41.919 just in Layman's terms, just explain the revolution that's going 193 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:43.919 on in mining, because I really like your Alan. 194 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:46.679 Sure what's going from the oil and gas would go 195 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:49.240 to shale. It's the exact same thing in mine exactly. 196 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:54.600 DLE stands for direct lithium extraction. Prior to DLE, there 197 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:58.200 were two ways to get lithium into the market. One 198 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:02.279 was to exploit Hoigh rock lithium sources, particularly a mineral 199 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:06.480 called spodymy, which you dig out of the ground, you concentrate, 200 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:09.159 and then you have to put it through a relatively 201 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:12.799 energy and carbon intensive refining process to turn it into 202 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:17.360 lithium hydroxide, which then typically goes into nickel based batteries. 203 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.159 The alternative source of lithium, and the lowest cost source 204 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.679 of lithium for years, has been the brines from the 205 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:29.440 lithium triangle down Latin America, Chili, Bolivia, Argentina, where the 206 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:33.039 method of extraction is to pump lithium brines that are 207 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:35.399 quite high in concentration in lithium and put them in 208 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:38.960 huge ponds and evaporate them over time to kind of 209 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:42.440 pre concentrate them and then process them into lithium carbonate. 210 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:46.799 And it's very environmentally problematic and there's a huge kind 211 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:49.440 of lead time from pumping the water out of the 212 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:53.360 grounds to actually having a deliverable ton of lithium at 213 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:57.000 the other end. So direct lithium extraction is where you 214 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:02.000 take lithium bearing brines and you essentially run them through 215 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:05.240 let's just call it a chemical plant for now, and 216 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:09.320 within a few literally a few hours, you run it 217 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:14.440 through a system where the Darly technology selectively strips the 218 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:18.759 lithium from the brine to produce a lithium chloride, and 219 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:21.720 from there it's a very simple step to produce lithium 220 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:23.679 carbonate and then you can, of course, you can go 221 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:25.480 on to produce a hydroxide as well if you wish 222 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:29.639 from there, and that's a huge revolution in lithium production 223 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:34.120 because it allows a much shorter cycle from extracting the 224 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:38.159 brine to delivering the chemical and it's a completely closed 225 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:41.879 loop system because the lithium depleted brine is then reinjected 226 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:46.360 back underground and can often recharge with lithium once it's 227 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:50.679 back underground. So the dly revolution not only going to 228 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.519 be enabled the West to scale lithium quickly, it is 229 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:59.519 also a very low carbon, low environmental footprint way of 230 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:04.200 doing so is a really important revolutionary step in the 231 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:06.960 lithium industry. There are a lot of skeptics out there 232 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:08.759 who have said it's not going to happen. 233 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.720 And the fact that the likes of Rio Tinto, Exxon 234 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:17.279 equinor slumberget Arcadian, which has seemed to be quiet seem 235 00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:19.799 to of course become part of Rio Tinto are all 236 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:22.440 doing it is proving the naysayers wrong. 237 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:27.320 You name tech Met, tech Mets your company. I like 238 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:31.440 to go back with you through the creation of tech Met, 239 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.720 because you're one of the few companies who have the 240 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:41.799 US government as shoulder or sponsor. Probably would explain, so 241 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:46.159 go back to its creation and there's thesis around it, 242 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:48.960 but probably we took already quite a note around the 243 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.440 thesis and how you've delivered so far, because when I 244 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:55.120 look at your activities. I see you have a mine 245 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:59.000 ran dow or so, and you know your investment in lithium. 246 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:00.960 So can you put this together please? 247 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:05.200 So technetous sort of technology metals. And we define a 248 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:09.480 technology metal as a metal where the demand for that 249 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:12.879 metal is being driven by a technology adoption. Think about 250 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:16.279 an S curve adoption of electric vehicles that is driving 251 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.799 a kind of one time phacist in the demand for 252 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:23.240 certain critical minerals. That's a definition that we tie to it, 253 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:28.159 and particularly like our focus is on lithium, nickel, cobalt, vanadium, tin, 254 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:32.480 and rare earth elements. We created the company in twenty seventeen. 255 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:34.879 We're not structured as a fund. We're structured as a 256 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:38.080 permanent capital vehicle, which makes us quite unique relative to 257 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:40.120 some of the other private equity players in the space. 258 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.759 And very early on we engaged with the US government 259 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:48.440 and in December of twenty twenty, we closed our first 260 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:52.679 significant investment from the United States government through an agency 261 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:56.600 called the International Development Finance Corporation, which is a federal 262 00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.799 agency of the US government which used to be called OPIC, 263 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:03.240 and under the first Trump administration, was given a new 264 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:06.080 mandate from Congress with a lot more money, a much 265 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:10.200 broader investment mandate, including the ability to do equity and 266 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:13.960 to have a much more America first policy orientation in 267 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:17.559 the way it deployed its capital, and so its investment 268 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.519 into tech Met was its first ever equity investment. And 269 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:23.039 really the purpose of the US government and the Trump 270 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:26.399 administration backing tech Met initially was because they had the 271 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:31.080 foresight to see this big geopolitical issue coming down the 272 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:33.519 pike and it's something that we needed to start to 273 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.159 address and challenge. We're not solely backed by the US government. 274 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:40.200 We also have a huge amount of private capital behind us, 275 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:44.759 including large scale family offices, institutional investors, and most recently 276 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:49.080 the Katari Investment Authority. We've had two subsequent investments under 277 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.639 the Biden administration, and so we're very much a bipartisan 278 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:56.799 topic amongst Washington. Critical minerals and the fight against China 279 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.279 is something that the whole of America is behind. It's 280 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:02.840 something that we continue to work with the US government 281 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.279 on very very closely, and we're really excited about working 282 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:09.759 with the new Trump administration to do more and quicker 283 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:14.160 and more aggressively because the Chinese stranglehold over the critical 284 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:19.240 minerals supply chain has increased, not decreased, and therefore we 285 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:22.160 need to fight back even harder to make sure that 286 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:25.960 America command its own destiny over its own industrial future. 287 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:28.359 Just one thing on the whole thing up, I can 288 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:30.880 actually just be really take the exact tops of you, 289 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:34.559 which is too late. Game's over. You can compete in 290 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.119 any of the battery it met us, and the reason 291 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:40.759 is is because China has the whole value chain, so 292 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:43.079 you can try and catch up, but it's going to 293 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:45.759 be a very very expensive ride. And the market power 294 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.039 of the brand names, the technology it's ald with them. 295 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:50.920 Yeah, and I would respectfully take the other side of 296 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:56.160 that argument. Never ever bet against America. America has some 297 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.960 of the most incredible innovative technology businesses in the world. 298 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:03.480 It's got the deepest capital markets, it's got a powerful 299 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:07.720 unified government capable of strong action, and it's going to 300 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:10.359 take time to catch up with the Chinese. I concede 301 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:12.480 that the Chinese have had a twenty year head start. 302 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:15.640 But when America chooses to do something, it's like a 303 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:18.519 sleeping giant, and when it wakes up, it can mobilize 304 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:22.920 at an extraordinary scale. So there is a battery supply 305 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:25.839 chain that is being stood up in America, and we 306 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:28.559 will see it through to the end because we have 307 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:31.240 no choice in the West if we want to have 308 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:35.480 any control over the future technologies that are going to 309 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:40.079 dominate the twenty first century, IE lithium ion batteries, which 310 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:42.079 are not going to be just about electric vehicles. They're 311 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:44.720 going to be about drone technologies, which are super important 312 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.559 for defense purposes. They're going to be about robots and automation, 313 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:52.319 which is going to be essential for economic productivity. The 314 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.759 US absolutely needs to have control over its own destiny 315 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.000 in this area, and we need to reduce the leverage 316 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:04.599 in the international system that China has currently. And we 317 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:07.720 are very very encouraged by what we're hearing from the 318 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.440 new Trump administration that we're going to accelerate this fight 319 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:12.960 against China, not decelerate. 320 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:15.680 When I read the news, and again I don't know 321 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:19.079 if it's true or not, but China has imposed export 322 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:28.839 controls on tungst team, tillurioma, bismuth, moule denum, and indioma. 323 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:30.559 And graphite, which is even more important. 324 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:34.279 Right the next day, reach out, your telephony is ringing, 325 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:35.839 you know, how is it working? 326 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.960 We actually have a tungsten mind, so we're looking to 327 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:41.279 ramp up production there and do our bit there. But 328 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:46.319 these export controls, they're kind of the first firing salvos 329 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:51.240 of a potential critical mineral trade war that could potentially 330 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:56.319 increase in scale and breadth over time, and just sort 331 00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.279 of underscores how urgent it is that of how quickly 332 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:03.240 we need to move in the West to counteract Chinese dominance. 333 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:06.599 And it's clear that China is willing to use these 334 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:10.799 levers as ways to advantage itself in the international system 335 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:13.640 and in the sort of great power competition against America. 336 00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:16.559 The good news is is that America and I should 337 00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:18.960 say North America to include Canada here as well, because 338 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:23.240 there is vast geological mineral wealth right across the North 339 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:27.359 American continent. None of those minerals that you listed are 340 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.720 absent from North America. They're all there for the taking. 341 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:35.200 And so we need to radically liberate and deregulate mining 342 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:40.440 regulations and loosen up some of the overbearing environmental hurdles 343 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:43.079 that we have to jump over to stand up minds 344 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:46.319 precisely so we can fight back against some of these 345 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:49.359 export controls and take command of our own economic destiny. 346 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:54.359 Richard, It's not just about mining, it's also about technology. 347 00:20:54.519 --> 00:20:59.200 So can you explain how you're not just into mining 348 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:01.559 but into all those new technologies. 349 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:06.279 Technology is the West's trump card, and it's particularly America's 350 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:10.440 trump card, because America's the greatest technological innovation engine on 351 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:12.680 planet Earth. Some of the ways we're going to fight 352 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:14.960 back against China I've already touched on, For example, the 353 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.480 DLE revolution. The company that we've invested in Energy Source 354 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:21.200 Minerals with its ILIAD platform, which is the most advanced 355 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.799 DLE technology in the West, is now extremely important because 356 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:29.640 the Chinese have announced controls on the export of DLE sorbents, 357 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:33.799 and Iliad is a completely China free technology and in 358 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:36.759 fact a superior DLY technology to what the Chinese have 359 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:40.279 for directlythmic extraction. But there are other areas in which 360 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.519 American innovation is going to help in this fight back 361 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:46.839 against Chinese control. We have a company called Zero Advanced 362 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:51.200 Battery Corporation, which is looking to completely change the way 363 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:53.119 that we make batteries. So if you think about the 364 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:57.319 battery supply chain today, the stranglehold that China has is 365 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:00.960 not necessarily on the upstream control of the mine itself. 366 00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:03.880 It's that middle part of the chain from how you 367 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.119 get from a dirt to a specialty chemical that you 368 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:09.680 can actually put into a battery. Typically, you have to 369 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:11.680 refine it into a ninety nine point nine to nine 370 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:14.319 percent pure metal salt that then has to be put 371 00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:18.039 into a cathode precursor. The precursor has to be litheated 372 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:21.880 into an active cathode material. That cathode is then put 373 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:25.000 onto an aluminum foil using a binder. It's glued onto 374 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:29.200 a foil. Well, we backed a company which can basically 375 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:31.680 do all of that in one step. We can take 376 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:36.720 run of mind material and through a molten salt electroplating process, 377 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.480 directly plate out active cathode material onto a current collector 378 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:45.599 in one step. That's an example of fantastic American innovation 379 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:51.240 that will essentially sidestep China's stranglehold on this part of 380 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:53.960 the supply chain. And there are other there are plenty 381 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.880 of other businesses doing other great innovative work in the 382 00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:01.039 battery area, and I think it's American technology which, when 383 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:03.640 it starts to scale up, will be the key to 384 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.160 some of the fight back against China. Remember, the litty 385 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:09.400 mind battery was invented in the West. It's a Western technology. 386 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:12.799 Firstly, it's not a Western technology. It comes out of Japan, Okay, 387 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:16.279 And we've been asleep for twenty years. Everything you're saying 388 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:20.960 is anti Chinese pro American. It comes across and I'm saying, 389 00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:22.839 this is a European where we live in a very 390 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.640 difficult geopolitical world where Europe being forced to move away 391 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:29.559 from the United States, and we have a world where 392 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:32.279 I know there's a great power discussion going on here, 393 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:35.960 but I'm just saying all I've got is anti Chinese sentiment, 394 00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:37.359 and I don't know if that's helpful. 395 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.119 I would credit the Chinese. We're doing a fantastic job. 396 00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:43.559 Over the last twenty years. They prosecuted a fantastic leap 397 00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:48.680 frogging strategy of not chasing ice engines and simply going 398 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.480 to degree leap frogging to dominate the next generation of 399 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.039 electric vehicle technologies. And by the way, they've done an 400 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:57.759 amazing job about it. So let me complement the Chinese. 401 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.960