Speaker 1: Top lots of productions.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna find them all. A seven nation Army couldn't
Speaker 2: holding me back. They're gonna rip it off, taking that
Speaker 2: time right behind my back. Then I'm talking to us
Speaker 2: something night because I can't walk again. I can fall
Speaker 2: through my mind, have a sick on red.
Speaker 3: There an't a message coming from my time. Hey, welcome
Speaker 3: to the nowe Jose podcast. This is Jose Galley. Soon
Speaker 3: today we are covering Waco. We are it's the day.
Speaker 3: This is going to drop the day before the anniversary
Speaker 3: of the Waco disaster, and this will also drop the
Speaker 3: in the next day. The following day will be me
Speaker 3: and Austin will be doing something very special for the
Speaker 3: Oklahoma City bombing. So these two things tie right and together.
Speaker 3: So this is also kind of a special moment in
Speaker 3: a sense, I think for me and Austin because how
Speaker 3: we how we met is a he did a big
Speaker 3: Ruby Ridge episode and that's how we became familiarized with
Speaker 3: each other. I've always been kind of more like Ben
Speaker 3: and a known for my coverage in local city bombing,
Speaker 3: and the two things that connects those together is obviously Waco,
Speaker 3: and that's a you know, super important ties into the
Speaker 3: Open Sea bombing, and I know there's gonna be a
Speaker 3: lot of people probably having eyes on me and Austin's
Speaker 3: channel here in the next few days, so I figured
Speaker 3: it was good to kind of let you guys know
Speaker 3: what led up to it, and also take a take
Speaker 3: a moment to remember all the people who lives were
Speaker 3: lost in that awful tragedy and remind people not to
Speaker 3: trust the leviathan that is our government. I mean, that's
Speaker 3: kind of the ongoing through line of all times with
Speaker 3: me and Austin shows. But with that, before we get
Speaker 3: into it, I do want to take a second to
Speaker 3: pay the bills. Obviously, you guys can fast forward, no
Speaker 3: big whoop if obviously if it's your premiering right now,
Speaker 3: you can't. But I do want to let you guys
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Speaker 3: let's get into the content. Let's get autent on here.
Speaker 3: What's up about? How are you doing, good man?
Speaker 1: How are you doing? Brother good?
Speaker 3: I'm glad to be here with you. It's finally I've actually,
Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever really done awake episode. So
Speaker 3: it's kind of you know on that to I mean,
Speaker 3: I've done a ton of episodes and a ton of different things,
Speaker 3: but never Waco, So I don't not that I think
Speaker 3: I can remember recall at least, so I mean I'm
Speaker 3: mentioned near five hundred. I'm like four to ninety I
Speaker 3: think right now. So yeah, the first time you know Waco,
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously that'd be right up in my alley.
Speaker 3: But here I am with you. As I said, it
Speaker 3: is kind of weird. This is like the the meeting
Speaker 3: of the minds in a sense. Not that you're like
Speaker 3: the Ruby Ridge guy. You've kind of been like all
Speaker 3: over the place I've but you've been more of a
Speaker 3: generalist and honestly much more honestly at the same time
Speaker 3: having a depth more knowledge. You're more the researcher. I
Speaker 3: usually flout you as in our dynamic duo, as being
Speaker 3: the researcher with the side of podcaster, and I'm the
Speaker 3: podcaster with the side of researcher. So that's kind of
Speaker 3: the dynamic between the two of us. I think. I mean,
Speaker 3: I do a little bit my own research, but I'm
Speaker 3: much more much more honed in on something like this,
Speaker 3: you know, thing like Oklahoma City bombing. You you're all
Speaker 3: of a place, and so I know you started out
Speaker 3: with things like Ruby Ridge, that's where you cut your teeth.
Speaker 3: So we're backing up a little bit. I know you're
Speaker 3: you're you're onto the Finders and Dutroux and all stuff
Speaker 3: like that. But me and you, we're taking it back
Speaker 3: to basics.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 3: We're going back to Waco. But even then we were
Speaker 3: talking to preach. Yet even then, even with all that,
Speaker 3: we're still seeing it with new eyes. So we're seeing
Speaker 3: the the this stuff and looking at like, oh my god.
Speaker 3: So I think this will be a fun episode. So
Speaker 3: this this will be unique because I mean, you did
Speaker 3: do an a Waco episode a long time ago on
Speaker 3: your channel back in the early days. I highly recommend, though,
Speaker 3: by the way, people go check out Austin's channel from
Speaker 3: the start. I think that's the best way to listen
Speaker 3: to this channel because it is cool to see and
Speaker 3: it's great. I think it's like, honestly, if you're a
Speaker 3: perspective a conspiracy theorist out there, that's the way you
Speaker 3: should start, Like, you should start with Austin's the Underclass
Speaker 3: Podcast channel or the Underclass Podcast. Start from the beginning
Speaker 3: because it literally is like thirty minute episodes on Zionism,
Speaker 3: thirty minute episode nine to eleven, thirty minute episode on Waco,
Speaker 3: Like it's like all the basics, so it's like literally
Speaker 3: basic building blocks, and then you know shorter episodes two,
Speaker 3: so little bite size things, you know, like twenty to
Speaker 3: forty minutes long, and then as time went on they
Speaker 3: became longer and longer and more depth. And it's great.
Speaker 3: Now we've gone to the point where you're tackling like
Speaker 3: Kinkora trafficking scandal on like a whole episode, and doing
Speaker 3: and doing five hour podcasts on like you know, your
Speaker 3: strings of murders from decades ago. So I think it's
Speaker 3: great though seeing it from the beginning. So but we're
Speaker 3: going back to the beginning, but with a new flair,
Speaker 3: with with the with the edge that me and you
Speaker 3: have gained from a from a long time in in
Speaker 3: this uh, in this realm.
Speaker 1: That's really how it feels like. I was just kind
Speaker 1: of I spent the past few hours just kind of
Speaker 1: like going back over a lot of my notes and
Speaker 1: then just kind of like honestly, I jumped down a
Speaker 1: huge rabbit hole on accident and got got entirely distracted,
Speaker 1: but still basically I was just reflecting back on, you know,
Speaker 1: more of the basics of of what I really the
Speaker 1: undertaking I initially, at least the approach that I initially
Speaker 1: undertook in my UH in my coverage of Waco, and
Speaker 1: and looking back on it now reflecting it. Of course,
Speaker 1: hindsight is twenty in certain ways as always, and so
Speaker 1: it's it's like I would have done it much differently,
Speaker 1: but hey, I still find value in it. It's it's
Speaker 1: a struggle actually going back and listening to my presentation
Speaker 1: I feel, but hey, okay, it shows growth. That's how
Speaker 1: you have to embrace.
Speaker 3: It, right, Yeah, I mean I've been relistening to my
Speaker 3: old okay see stuff in preparation for what we're about
Speaker 3: to do this weekend. And it's I do that every time,
Speaker 3: you know, I ever listened to just kind of gets great,
Speaker 3: because honestly, it's just it. It's like and honestly, most
Speaker 3: of the time I fast forward to the parts I
Speaker 3: talk because it's I just want to hear Richard Booth
Speaker 3: and just kind of you know, like when I'm driving
Speaker 3: or something. So yeah, I get you, but it is
Speaker 3: it is rough looking back, you know, especially when you're like,
Speaker 3: I've improved this, I've tightened up that, and you're like,
Speaker 3: I'm listening to the old audio the awful Like a
Speaker 3: lot of the isms that I've gotten, I feel like
Speaker 3: I've straightened out. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm
Speaker 3: still not. I still have a lot of flaws, if any,
Speaker 3: when it comes to public speaking, But by God have
Speaker 3: I have I smoothed out a lot of them over
Speaker 3: time when you look back. But even still people seem
Speaker 3: to like that. So uh that though, I will say
Speaker 3: there's a little there's some news coming out soon for
Speaker 3: those who like who like that series. I mean, there'll
Speaker 3: be more to come. I'll let you know after because
Speaker 3: it won't be on my channel, but somebody else there's
Speaker 3: gonna be something very very very very very similar, So
Speaker 3: keep an eye out for that. I'll obviously promote that
Speaker 3: when that's a thing, just because even though it's not
Speaker 3: gonna be something that I personally gain from because it
Speaker 3: won't be on my channel, I think it'll be a
Speaker 3: great useful thing for people to be able to learn
Speaker 3: about the Oklahoma City bombing. But with that, Austin, let's get
Speaker 3: into it, dude, let's start out with I think the
Speaker 3: best way to kind of tackle this is to kind
Speaker 3: of start with characters. Although I mean, obviously there are
Speaker 3: other characters like FBI negotiators and this guy and that guy,
Speaker 3: but and like we could go into each one of
Speaker 3: the little bios and we kind of will maybe as
Speaker 3: we go, But I really think that only there's only
Speaker 3: two bios in my opinion, that really matter, like a
Speaker 3: ton of ton, like that's David Koresh and then and
Speaker 3: then in a collective sense, the Davidian you know, in general,
Speaker 3: like the the I guess, and that would almost be
Speaker 3: more of like the belief system really, So those are
Speaker 3: the two things I think you kind of wrap your
Speaker 3: head around before you start digging into this. So I think, probably,
Speaker 3: I guess David probably the best place to start. So
Speaker 3: just kind of give me a breakdown of who this
Speaker 3: guy is. I mean, if you want, we can start
Speaker 3: all the way from the beginning with him. I guess
Speaker 3: let's just let's just jump right into Korsh. We'll probably
Speaker 3: do a Dawn thirty minutes on just Koresh himself, but
Speaker 3: let's let's go ahead and go. Let's go start with
Speaker 3: Koresh so give me kind of a breakdown on who
Speaker 3: he is and what he's about. And then that way,
Speaker 3: when whenever we start getting to the chronological sequence of
Speaker 3: events here, we kind of have an idea of who
Speaker 3: the person we're dealing with as they go go on.
Speaker 1: So right, yeah, I think that is basically the perfect
Speaker 1: starting point. And knowing kind of the personal history and
Speaker 1: background of Koresh himself is so strange. I mean it
Speaker 1: begins to instantly, you know, Vernon Wayne Howell, right, like
Speaker 1: it just kind of an entirely different just what the
Speaker 1: name kind of evokes in general, you know, psychologically, it's
Speaker 1: it's just entirely different David koresh It. It is obviously
Speaker 1: it's become very much immortalized in many ways, but still
Speaker 1: I think it's more palatable as well. And but the
Speaker 1: Branch Davidians, they originated in nineteen fifty five from a
Speaker 1: schism in the Shepherd's Rod or the Rod or the Davidians,
Speaker 1: which were this offshoot of the Seventh day Adventist Church,
Speaker 1: right the worldwide Seventh day Adventist Church and and the
Speaker 1: Shepherd's Rod or the Davidians were founded in nineteen twenty
Speaker 1: nine by Victor Hotef, and this man was allegedly the
Speaker 1: president and prophet after he was excommunicated from the Seventh
Speaker 1: day Adventist for promoting heretical doctrines. Apparently, and so, according
Speaker 1: to the Christian Research Institute, the group was headquartered at
Speaker 1: a property known as Mount Carmel Center near Waco, Texas,
Speaker 1: and reached its peak in the early nineteen fifties with
Speaker 1: thousands of adherents before splintering into various factions after Hotef's
Speaker 1: death in nineteen fifty five. And so, at the core
Speaker 1: of his ideology and the foundation of the Davidian's belief
Speaker 1: was this imminent prophecy of an apocalypse involving the second
Speaker 1: coming of Jesus Christ and the defeat of the evil
Speaker 1: armies of Babylon. So you instantly have this doomsday aspect
Speaker 1: of this was very much in vogue at the time.
Speaker 1: Right consider nineteen fifty five, Like, does that not feel
Speaker 1: like prime mk ultra territory as far as I'm considered
Speaker 1: in the sort of the sense of the philosophical occultic
Speaker 1: occultist underground, Like, it's very important and interesting to at
Speaker 1: least recognize the timing because much of this begins to surface. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, in this underlying subculture that really you know,
Speaker 1: wasn't quite recognized at such a public level and definitely
Speaker 1: was not as influential in any way h culturally as
Speaker 1: much as it became. And so I will say it
Speaker 1: does make sense in a Cold War sense too, because
Speaker 1: it was like peak Cold War era, because it was
Speaker 1: like very much just like, oh no, they're gonna bomb
Speaker 1: us in a moment. The apocalypse was. It was very
Speaker 1: much an apocalyptic mindset at that time. I mean, hell,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a through line between all these I
Speaker 1: mean you have chaos you I mean like you have
Speaker 1: like a with the I didn't even mean SI guess
Speaker 1: I'm at Manson.
Speaker 3: I just might think chaos will think it. But you know,
Speaker 3: just a lot of different care There was a lot
Speaker 3: of different groups during the time that were like really
Speaker 3: pushing apocaly you know, apocalyptic messages, whether it be race.
Speaker 1: Wars, whatever, socialism was Jim Jones and the People's simple.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like this is the the sort
Speaker 1: of like the mindset at the time that's being very
Speaker 1: much reflected in in the ideology andhilosophy of the Davidians.
Speaker 1: And so the center itself named Mount Carmel after a
Speaker 1: mountain in Israel mentioned in Joshua nineteen twenty six in
Speaker 1: the Old Testament, so instantly you know this is directly
Speaker 1: connected to fundamentally it becomes a sort of a sort
Speaker 1: of nationalist Zionism in a way like Christian Zionism, vein
Speaker 1: that it very much taps into it at the least,
Speaker 1: which was becoming prominent in the mindset of like this
Speaker 1: the right wing militia types of the day, which of
Speaker 1: course this is more in line with consider just the
Speaker 1: after effects and consequences later on, obviously, because this is
Speaker 1: really in its infancy in fifty five, but still by
Speaker 1: fifty nine, Victor's widow, Florence Hotef, she announced that the
Speaker 1: expected armageddon was about to take place. But after the
Speaker 1: failure of this prophecy, control of Mount Carmel Center would
Speaker 1: fall to Benjamin Rodin, who was the founder of the
Speaker 1: Branch Davidians Seventh Day Adventist association known as Branch Davidians,
Speaker 1: so he would be the one to promote this different
Speaker 1: doctrinal belief system uh than that of the original Davidian organization.
Speaker 1: And it was upon his death that Lois Rodin his
Speaker 1: widow would take control of the center. So it's like
Speaker 1: this is this is very interesting as passing through through
Speaker 1: these right channels and and kind of making its way
Speaker 1: into the hands of Vernon Wayne Hall, who would later
Speaker 1: become David Koresh, which that allot. It's like he's he's
Speaker 1: taking Hey, man, I understand, I understand the notion. Right,
Speaker 1: you go on the uh the pilgrimage. Okay, he returned
Speaker 1: embracing an entirely new identity, which, to be clear for
Speaker 1: the audience, I don't think I mean, maybe I missed it,
Speaker 1: but I don't think he laid it out explicitly. He
Speaker 1: did visit Israel, so.
Speaker 3: I will be okay, it's like, because yeah, so you
Speaker 3: said mentioned Pilgrima. I just want to make sure we
Speaker 3: didn't actually gloss that over and be were like, what
Speaker 3: are you talking about? Obviously kid around. That is weird
Speaker 3: that he he goes and disappears Israel, comes back and
Speaker 3: now he's a change man, so you know, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and so multiple reports would claim that Lois
Speaker 1: considered their son originally George Roden unfit to assume the
Speaker 1: position of the prophet, and would instead groom this young
Speaker 1: man by the name of Vernon Wayne Wayne Howell to
Speaker 1: be her successor, and and she would apparently be behind
Speaker 1: later changing his name to David Koresh. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So so that alone is he would be surprised that
Speaker 3: there was some weirdness there.
Speaker 1: I just he doesn't even bother. Yeah, he grew up.
Speaker 1: His mother was was like a fifteen year old when
Speaker 1: she had him. It's like Charles Manson almost. I know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to make that uh you know, that parallel,
Speaker 1: because I don't I think that that's a kind of
Speaker 1: not quite accurate obviously, but but you know, but still
Speaker 1: it's too similar to you know, to not to not
Speaker 1: sort of acknowledge, you know.
Speaker 3: And anyway, Yeah, I just I just it just seems
Speaker 3: like a the grooming thing. Maybe maybe maybe maybe I'm
Speaker 3: seeing something that's not there. It's based on just simply
Speaker 3: the fact that this young woman, I mean, does seem
Speaker 3: weird that she would pass over her son who would
Speaker 3: be the next in line and then for this young man. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 3: there you go. Okay, you know what, there you go.
Speaker 3: I forgot that was the case. So, yeah, they developed
Speaker 3: a sexulationship.
Speaker 1: Seventies something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's old as hell. So like, yeah, so I mean,
Speaker 3: because this is you were talking the fifties, this stuff
Speaker 3: takes place in the nineties. So she was like head
Speaker 3: of the church with her husband. Not head of the church,
Speaker 3: but like at the side, the right, she was like
Speaker 3: at the front, the four front of this stuff. You know,
Speaker 3: in the fifties, that's when it was a day. So
Speaker 3: like we're talking like the nineties with Waco. So just
Speaker 3: through the math. She's old. So this is weird. He's
Speaker 3: probably in what his twenties, early thirties, I think around
Speaker 3: this time. I'm not exactly sure how old he is,
Speaker 3: but would be my guest, maybe late twenties and I
Speaker 3: mean maybe mid to late thirties actually, And now I
Speaker 3: think about it, I'm not sure. Question either way.
Speaker 1: Bizarre, Yeah, it's it is very strange, but so it it.
Speaker 1: And also, you know, keep in mind, as I mentioned,
Speaker 1: fifteen year old mother. Uh, he basically was at least
Speaker 1: originally raised by his grandparents. But yeah, very very I
Speaker 1: would I read about how he had apparently been abused
Speaker 1: allegedly as well, his mother had brought in some strange
Speaker 1: man into the house and he had been physically violent,
Speaker 1: and and so there were a lot of implications and
Speaker 1: allegations that he would he had been severely abused when
Speaker 1: he was a child, So that alone, you know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't again draw parallels with a Manson type unfortunately, because
Speaker 1: of that statistic level.
Speaker 3: Of lady grooming. I don't though I don't remember an
Speaker 3: older lady with Manson. I wasn't implying that, but I
Speaker 3: just especially when it comes to program to kill stuff.
Speaker 3: I remember there were multiple serial killers that have and
Speaker 3: it is always it seems like there's these older women
Speaker 3: that are grooming young men. Hell, even the I believe
Speaker 3: that Kyle Spits seven six four thing recently, there was
Speaker 3: an older lady with him that was grooming him as well,
Speaker 3: like much older. You're not actually exactly I will, but
Speaker 3: a good deal older. So it is, it is weird.
Speaker 3: It always seems to be these young, weird older ladies
Speaker 3: that groom these young men to do these So I
Speaker 3: just it's just it's it's just it's a it's a
Speaker 3: common through line. Obviously this made me nothing here, but
Speaker 3: it is weird that we have this guy who, you know,
Speaker 3: he's kind of a a what's the word, like, he's
Speaker 3: he inspires passion among people and you know charismatic. That's
Speaker 3: where a charismatic guy being groomed by an older lady.
Speaker 3: Like I mean, it's it's yeah, I don't know, you
Speaker 3: just kind of can see. And then you see how
Speaker 3: he approaches sex to is described approach sext with other
Speaker 3: people too. It's like, I mean, he's having sex with
Speaker 3: older you know what he's claiming. Supposedly, he's just doing
Speaker 3: it to create children. I don't know, if you may
Speaker 3: a very real might just be that way. So it's like,
Speaker 3: I don't know, there's just weirdness here, but go on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had always made me uncomfortable certain allegations. Well
Speaker 1: we'll get into too some of those details. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's again this is with Koresh himself, you know, just
Speaker 1: kind of recognizing these strange As far as his extensive backstory,
Speaker 1: you know, first of all, you have Vernon Wayne Howell
Speaker 1: choosing David in order to include himself and the lineage
Speaker 1: linking him directly to the biblical king David, from who
Speaker 1: the New Savior would descend, also connected to the throne
Speaker 1: of David which Jesus would occupy after he returned, and
Speaker 1: the final judgment, and so there was basically the last
Speaker 1: name Koresh was. It has much more of a backstory.
Speaker 1: Vernon chose Koresh because it is the biblical name of
Speaker 1: Cyrus the Great. For his first heavenly insight, Vernon was
Speaker 1: reminded of Cyrus, King of Persia, mentioned prominently in Isaiah
Speaker 1: forty five. Babylon conquered Israel in five eighty six BC
Speaker 1: and took many Jews into captivity, But when Cyrus and
Speaker 1: his Persian army defeated the Babylonians forty seven years later,
Speaker 1: they freed the Jews, returned them to their homeland, and
Speaker 1: with the Persian king's own money, rebuilt the temple there.
Speaker 1: Cyrus is described in Isaiah as a messiah of God,
Speaker 1: meaning one appointed by the Lord to provide a special service.
Speaker 1: Several messiahs are mentioned in the Bible, but Cyrus is
Speaker 1: the only gentile so designated. So it's Vernon hell. He's
Speaker 1: informed that he was this name Cyrus, whose name in
Speaker 1: Hebrew is Koresh, and Vernon must take that as his name.
Speaker 1: Like his biblical namesake David, Koresh would rescue the righteous
Speaker 1: from Babylon, so that was his prophecy and uh and
Speaker 1: so obviously it's it's very much you know, it's a
Speaker 1: strange hearkening back to like this very very uh. It
Speaker 1: may maybe you would say kabalistic psychological theological framework, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, to some extent at the very least.
Speaker 3: It's hard not to notice this guy goes Israel comes
Speaker 3: back as the good boy. Like it's literally like this case,
Speaker 3: Cyrus is the one is the one non Jew that's
Speaker 3: elevated this sort of status. So it is like, I
Speaker 3: don't know, there's something there. I mean, obviously not nothing
Speaker 3: much to do with that, just interesting at least worth
Speaker 3: pointing out.
Speaker 1: And it's crazier than that because there were older members
Speaker 1: of the group that claimed Vernon Hall first came to
Speaker 1: Mount Carmel in eighty one and didn't appear to be
Speaker 1: that bright. He showed none of these this right, these characteristics,
Speaker 1: and apparently it gets very interesting. But first of all,
Speaker 1: it's the credibility at the very least, like just mentioning
Speaker 1: David Koresh and the member Stephen Schneider, who they had
Speaker 1: been traveling the world, as we had mentioned, talking to
Speaker 1: various religious leaders, and they would tell respective members that
Speaker 1: they were only trying to learn what the Bible actually means.
Speaker 1: Various biblical scholars, theological experts, priests, and rabbis from all
Speaker 1: over the world had been flying into Waco, Texas, only
Speaker 1: to visit Mount Carmel and study David's teachings of something
Speaker 1: he called the Seven Seals, right and which that alone,
Speaker 1: the seven Seals. They sound fascinated, but the story, uh
Speaker 1: would would always be the same. Each one of them
Speaker 1: would claim that David came to their seminary school or
Speaker 1: their synagogue and sat down with them only to teach
Speaker 1: them more about the Bible within an hour than they
Speaker 1: had learned in the past two or three years at
Speaker 1: their school or house of study. So he had something,
Speaker 1: he had something going on psychologically at a certain point
Speaker 1: where man I heard it put into terms of after
Speaker 1: after Manson went to I forget the name of the prison,
Speaker 1: not the not the institution, not the psychiatric institution in
Speaker 1: in California. I'm trying to remember, but either way, they
Speaker 1: said that once he he came out of that facility,
Speaker 1: he he had he had developed an entirely different set
Speaker 1: of skills, and he basically the controller, the control, the
Speaker 1: essentially the controller. I forget the terms they put it
Speaker 1: in like the controlled became the controller something like that.
Speaker 1: And it was basically considering the idea of he was
Speaker 1: he was trained with the sophisticated methods of mind control,
Speaker 1: that he was basically given these set of techniques that
Speaker 1: he would be able to employ himself through these utilizing
Speaker 1: these specific you know, psychedelic compounds, various drugs right essentially,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'd read about this individual. We'll get
Speaker 1: into it later. It's it's it's fascinating stuff because they're
Speaker 1: talking about.
Speaker 3: Real quick on Koresh. You obviously, whether whether he's whether
Speaker 3: he's a whether he was with it or not. I mean,
Speaker 3: there are on this topic. Weren't there statements I believe
Speaker 3: from his brother or someone, you know, some sort of
Speaker 3: you know, sibling or something like that that you know,
Speaker 3: stated that he was like I don't know if this
Speaker 3: was supposed to be a Paul Bunyan tale or what.
Speaker 3: But then you know, obviously they speak to like, you
Speaker 3: know him, you know, always read the Bible voraciously from
Speaker 3: a young age and stuff like that. So, I mean,
Speaker 3: I know, then you said, then they say, do you
Speaker 3: do you remember the specifically offhand? Uh, the the the
Speaker 3: sources of the ones claiming that he seemed kind of
Speaker 3: just not that smart when he was there. I mean,
Speaker 3: it was just just kind of the the just kind
Speaker 3: of the general feeling or what.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was basically it was described as there was
Speaker 1: essentially the older group of members who had been around
Speaker 1: before Vernon changed his name, before he was even before
Speaker 1: the leadership, right as far as the hierarchy of the
Speaker 1: organization and the group itself before the leadership changed hands,
Speaker 1: and and this sort of strange dynamic between obviously you know,
Speaker 1: wrote In and Vernon. How then then you have kind of, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you had this really kind of like a
Speaker 1: divide fracturing between the members where they they did not
Speaker 1: embrace this new way and new outlook and perspective of
Speaker 1: the group. And so that was essentially how it was
Speaker 1: described that this was in nineteen eighty one that he
Speaker 1: had first entered Mount Carmel and had first come around
Speaker 1: the group itself. Then this is when they were describing
Speaker 1: him as not appearing to be that bright when he
Speaker 1: first came around, even though he had previously been a
Speaker 1: carpenter and was good at fixing things, but also had
Speaker 1: a stutter and lacked any social skills. Certainly not expected
Speaker 1: to possess leadership qualities. This is how he was described.
Speaker 1: So this is when he goes on a pilgrimage to Israel,
Speaker 1: returns claiming to have been shown a new, deeper knowledge
Speaker 1: of the scripture, granting him the understanding and ability to
Speaker 1: interpret and teach the Seven Seals, and had acquired depth
Speaker 1: of knowledge, including new gifts he did not previously possess.
Speaker 1: So that's based on are you.
Speaker 3: Saying he was occulted? Is that what you're saying he
Speaker 3: was granted with knowledge exactly?
Speaker 1: It seems like the Vanguard revealed the secret knowledge rights
Speaker 1: and and uh, then he returned embracing an entirely new
Speaker 1: outlook and identity as well. And and again this charisma
Speaker 1: that that apparently did not it wasn't a part of
Speaker 1: his just his Yeah, obviously, it's it's just like a
Speaker 1: fascinating aspect of the story at the very least. And
Speaker 1: I do know that, yes, he did, like there are
Speaker 1: reports of his of his siblings claiming that all he
Speaker 1: did was read the Bible. So it's very very possible that,
Speaker 1: I mean, something led him to the group in the
Speaker 1: first place. I'm not exactly sure what that that might
Speaker 1: have been, but you know, there are kind of kind
Speaker 1: of alternative theories obviously to to to that, but still
Speaker 1: as the official narrative goes, and and the the you know,
Speaker 1: as far as just the corroborated background of the group
Speaker 1: itself and the members and and then their perspective on
Speaker 1: Vernon Howell and David Koresh, this is how the story goes,
Speaker 1: and so it's again according to to other members of
Speaker 1: the group, David would would issue a challenge to people
Speaker 1: after returning, and he would say, this book is sealed
Speaker 1: with seven seals. No man can reveal it. I wonder
Speaker 1: if you might let me show you maybe I can
Speaker 1: reveal it. And then he would he would basically challenge
Speaker 1: these staunch religious people who would grow upset by this
Speaker 1: and typically say things like are you saying you are Christ?
Speaker 1: Or are you saying you are the Lamb? And he
Speaker 1: would he would respond, no, I'm not saying any of that.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, let me show you the seven seals.
Speaker 1: And all I wanted after being exposed to this story
Speaker 1: was to sit down with David Koresh and have present
Speaker 1: to me the seven seals. Honestly, like it really, it
Speaker 1: really did make me feel like, what is happening if
Speaker 1: to attract so many different experts around the world, theological experts,
Speaker 1: I mean considered within you know, their field of interest,
Speaker 1: and and along with you know, spiritual leaders all over
Speaker 1: the world and all different walks of faith that were
Speaker 1: coming specifically to Waco, Texas, to a to a tiny
Speaker 1: compound with David Koresh Vernon Wayne Howell to have him
Speaker 1: present them these seven Seals over the course of like
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. Sometimes I forget how long it
Speaker 1: would it would officially take, but but yes it was. Uh.
Speaker 1: That alone is very fascinating, you know, just that appeal
Speaker 1: that that he did gain over time and and utilizing
Speaker 1: this presentation of the Seven Seals.
Speaker 3: But so.
Speaker 1: David Thibodeaux, right, one of the Davidian members who survived
Speaker 1: the the siege. Uh, he claimed that David Koresh one
Speaker 1: time he would he jumped on stage in his introduction
Speaker 1: to the Seven Seals, teaching to a new large group
Speaker 1: and lifted up the Bible and said a lot of
Speaker 1: people look at this as two pieces of cow leather
Speaker 1: and a bunch of pages in between, and some and
Speaker 1: some people spend their whole lives trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what this book says, what this book means, And he
Speaker 1: held it up to his forehead and he said, I
Speaker 1: see this book panoramically from Genesis to Revelation, as if
Speaker 1: it is happening before me right now as I'm speaking
Speaker 1: to you. And Thibodeau said his immediate internal reaction was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, man, like that's that's obviously a tall tale.
Speaker 1: But then over the course of the next two weeks,
Speaker 1: really within around three nights, two or three nights, Thibodeaux
Speaker 1: claimed to be convinced that David Koresh really did see
Speaker 1: the scripture in this way, and apparently six months before
Speaker 1: the raid took place. I always found this story strange
Speaker 1: that that David Tibbert would tell that he was sh
Speaker 1: up shingling a roof of the larger house when David
Speaker 1: Koresh looked at him and said, Thibodeau, what are you
Speaker 1: going to do six months from now when there are
Speaker 1: tanks running up and down the Double E Ranch road.
Speaker 1: And he looked at him and said, David, I don't
Speaker 1: care what your message is. This is America. They're never
Speaker 1: going to bring tanks on this property. He reportedly did
Speaker 1: the same thing with Kathy Schroeder, another member, when he
Speaker 1: looked at her and he said, Kathy, what are you
Speaker 1: going to He goes, Kathy, what are you going to
Speaker 1: do when helicopters are buzzing this building? And she says, David,
Speaker 1: there's never going to be helicopters on this property. So
Speaker 1: those two like specifically occur, you know, and the demographic
Speaker 1: that was attracted to this ideology obviously, you know, I was,
Speaker 1: I was very like struck by the fact. Wh right, No,
Speaker 1: it seemed more like, yeah, like it. I honestly, it
Speaker 1: seemed strangely like in a way. Obviously the racial dynamic
Speaker 1: is much different with Jonestown, but still you can kind
Speaker 1: of make some sort of strange connection there because you
Speaker 1: have but but yet they're more I hate to say civilized,
Speaker 1: but I mean that that is a reality in regard to.
Speaker 3: Of a higher socio economic class.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, that's a better way to put it, for sure.
Speaker 1: But still, you know, you have Wayne Martin as a
Speaker 1: great example. You know, he's he's he's a black guy
Speaker 1: who was a Harvard Law School graduate and served as
Speaker 1: Mount Carmel's resident attorney and was apparently third in command
Speaker 1: or second or third behind or equal to Steve Schneider,
Speaker 1: and was he was the first to call nine one
Speaker 1: one the day of February twenty eighth from the raid
Speaker 1: uh began and it began to ensue, and and he
Speaker 1: was he was talking about the women and children right,
Speaker 1: calling it off for that risk. But yeah, it's really
Speaker 1: before we get into much of that. I should bring
Speaker 1: it back to kind of a little bit more of
Speaker 1: like explaining the unorthodox way of life embraced by the
Speaker 1: members of the group.
Speaker 3: Ye, and bring it to anyways. So, yeah, we've kind
Speaker 3: of covered crushes bio, we've kind of threw out, sort
Speaker 3: of weaved in and out the bio of the overall church.
Speaker 3: But obviously there's some other elements we should probably touch
Speaker 3: on before we get into it. I'm assuming probably the
Speaker 3: first one you'll likely almost late into will be the
Speaker 3: the uh, you know, the polygamy and the underage children,
Speaker 3: uh you know, you know, underage wives. I guess you
Speaker 3: could say, which that plays a part, you know, particularly
Speaker 3: in how they're are colored in the public, in the
Speaker 3: the view of the public, and how it kind of
Speaker 3: paints it in people's some heads too, in a sense
Speaker 3: of a legally, I guess you could almost say, I
Speaker 3: guess maybe not even that's not even the right word
Speaker 3: I'm looking for. But it's like to some people, I
Speaker 3: think they see it or for justifying the situation. A
Speaker 3: lot of people see this as is somehow this builds
Speaker 3: into the line of justification to reach the ultimate crescendo
Speaker 3: of this. Say so I'm like, oh, well he had childwives,
Speaker 3: and it's like, well, does that mean you should kill
Speaker 3: him in his child lives? Like, I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 3: maybe it was just him. You might have some sort
Speaker 3: of argument here, but but when when you kill the
Speaker 3: victims too, it's a different story. So yeah, if you're
Speaker 3: supposedly sticking up for some you know, victims here, well,
Speaker 3: I mean maybe trying not to kill the victims as well.
Speaker 3: But anyways, it passed it enough to you to tell
Speaker 3: us a little bit more about just kind of how
Speaker 3: the Davidians, uh, how they went about, how they behaved,
Speaker 3: what kind of weird weird things that we should know.
Speaker 3: And these are a lot of these things are things
Speaker 3: we already know that were you know, thrown around in
Speaker 3: the media to paint them in a negative light.
Speaker 1: Yep, exactly. And again you know, clearly they're a splinter
Speaker 1: group of the Seventh day Adventists. But David Koresh himself
Speaker 1: was believed to be the Lamb all right, meaning that
Speaker 1: he would precede the second coming of Christ, as told
Speaker 1: in the Book of Revelation. And in addition to being
Speaker 1: the group's spiritual leader, he assumed the burden of sex
Speaker 1: for the male Davidians, meaning that he and only he
Speaker 1: was allowed to sleep with female members, obviously, and it
Speaker 1: didn't stop there either, when Koresh took multiple wives himself,
Speaker 1: practicing polygamy even as young as fourteen years old. And
Speaker 1: I heard allegations of twelve, but nothing ever corroborated enough
Speaker 1: to kind of like make that concrete judgment. But this
Speaker 1: was technically under Texas law. It was technically legal as
Speaker 1: far as the fourteen year old, which is terrible to
Speaker 1: say because obviously this is blatantly immoral in my mind.
Speaker 1: But you know these.
Speaker 3: Comment real quick once again, you know to that point,
Speaker 3: even if it was illegal, this doesn't change anything. It
Speaker 3: means just about any anything here whatsoever. Even if this
Speaker 3: was illegal, even though they actually had legitimate legal pretenses
Speaker 3: to operate to for an arrest, that no way justifies
Speaker 3: this entire situation at all, which obviously we'll get into
Speaker 3: when we get into the actual weight to the actual
Speaker 3: rate itself in the ways it probably could have been avoided.
Speaker 3: But that's getting ahead of ourselves. So back to where
Speaker 3: we were with the with all the child sex or
Speaker 3: all the child wives and stuff.
Speaker 1: Right, So obviously this was partly used to justify the
Speaker 1: atf success excessive tactics during the siege, which you mentioned,
Speaker 1: and and the former member that I had brought up before,
Speaker 1: David Thibodeaux, he's one of this Rivers who obviously one
Speaker 1: of only nine who survived the fiery finale to the
Speaker 1: siege on April nineteenth, when asked point blank, at least
Speaker 1: the siege begin man, it's just When asked point blank
Speaker 1: about the form of polygamy practiced by the group, in
Speaker 1: an article for Reason Magazine, David Thibodeau says, as far
Speaker 1: as the sexuality is concerned, David didn't have sex just
Speaker 1: to have sex. He always had a goal, a focus,
Speaker 1: and that was to have kids. He wanted to have
Speaker 1: as many kids as possible. A lot of people forget that,
Speaker 1: that's just they just say, there's this guy all these
Speaker 1: stupid people followed him, and he just wanted to have sex,
Speaker 1: and that was it. I can think of one hundred
Speaker 1: million better ways to do it. A lot of people
Speaker 1: have a wife and then mistresses, and they hide it
Speaker 1: and cover it up. David was very open about what
Speaker 1: he was doing because he believed it was a scriptural thing.
Speaker 1: This is according to Thibodeaux, who is justifying it in
Speaker 1: these terms, and it was a very complicated thing. But
Speaker 1: the plan all fit together. He says, I never understood
Speaker 1: how so many women could live together under those circumstances.
Speaker 1: It's a mystery of God. Let me tell you, how
Speaker 1: could all these guys hang out, let that happen and
Speaker 1: not do anything. Then he's asked by the reason journalist
Speaker 1: conducting the interview, didn't the guys get upset? You were single?
Speaker 1: But for the other guys it was their wives crush
Speaker 1: was sleeping with. And Thibodeau says, of course, Steve Schnyder
Speaker 1: was very upset often about it. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: he had spent six months trying to rip David apart
Speaker 1: to prove him wrong before he joined the group, So
Speaker 1: did Paul Fada. They worked together trying to prove the
Speaker 1: message wrong. They couldn't do it, so they said he
Speaker 1: has the truth. So at that point they fell into
Speaker 1: line David Thibodeau's asked, they believed it was the message
Speaker 1: of God, that it was for this higher purpose, and
Speaker 1: that they were in the inner circle of the anointed.
Speaker 1: One think about that they would sacrifice everything to be
Speaker 1: with this person and to have some part in the
Speaker 1: fulfillment of this eternal plan. That something the world wouldn't understand.
Speaker 1: They might be wiped out for it, but eternally they
Speaker 1: will have great position. It's a pretty amazing dynamic. They
Speaker 1: believed that Koresh was the next spirit Messiah, the prophet,
Speaker 1: who would come to fulfill this part of the truth.
Speaker 1: They would stand with him and come back to set
Speaker 1: up the kingdom here on earth. Thibodeau was given the
Speaker 1: opportunity to explain these beliefs a bit more, and he
Speaker 1: was interviewed in the Dallas Observer, and he says the
Speaker 1: media has gotten lots of things wrong. He never considered
Speaker 1: himself a Branch Davidian. He says, the first time he
Speaker 1: ever heard that term was on TV, which I found strange.
Speaker 1: He also never considered Koresh the messiah. Thibodeau says he
Speaker 1: believed Koresh was a prophet, but the people in the
Speaker 1: compound weren't worshiping Koresh. He considered Koresh a friend, but
Speaker 1: he wasn't blind to his flaws. Koresh was married to
Speaker 1: several women, some obviously very young. Husbands and fathers gave
Speaker 1: away their wives and daughters to be with him. Who
Speaker 1: would father twelve children with his wives. Koresh certainly was
Speaker 1: guilty of something, right, I mean, it seems he was either,
Speaker 1: as Thibodeau says here, a polygamist, or guilty of statutory rape.
Speaker 1: Probably both depends on how you look at it. You
Speaker 1: have to look at it the legality, Thibodeau says. The
Speaker 1: bottom line is, at the time, and I don't know
Speaker 1: what the law is now, a marriage with parental consent
Speaker 1: was fourteen, and that doesn't make it right at all,
Speaker 1: he says, But but that was his that was his
Speaker 1: vision and perspective. As being a member of the group,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's very strange, but it's something that
Speaker 1: obviously you have a little bit more detail on and
Speaker 1: you understand at least the justification that was being kind
Speaker 1: of portrayed to members of the.
Speaker 3: Group, which is speaking of justification, I mean, I guess,
Speaker 3: let me know if you have specifically more on the
Speaker 3: bio of the group. But I thought it sounded like
Speaker 3: me like you were. I didn't really thought. I thought
Speaker 3: you were right your end there, you got there basically okay,
Speaker 3: all right, because you started a night start as I
Speaker 3: was like, wait, crap, I thought you were. You came
Speaker 3: to a natural pause. I came a little a little
Speaker 3: too early. But anyways, speaking of justifications, I mean that
Speaker 3: he I mean, obviously we've kind of talked about David Koresh,
Speaker 3: the the the da Vidians and kind of their beliefs
Speaker 3: and the things he was you know, obviously the polygamy,
Speaker 3: the the child wives. But as we as we've kind
Speaker 3: of said those were legal, so those aren't I mean,
Speaker 3: I guess now then you can say, oh, you know,
Speaker 3: it's kind of the the old I forget the mobster,
Speaker 3: but the one they took down for tax tax evasion,
Speaker 3: and so it's it's kind of the idea of like,
Speaker 3: well maybe the idea here is like, well, you know,
Speaker 3: if you want to go off those things, well we
Speaker 3: got to find a crime uh, and so the crime
Speaker 3: here was, if I recall quickly, something along the lines
Speaker 3: of weapons, because they were obviously we're done with the ATF,
Speaker 3: so we have believe the the The claim was something
Speaker 3: like they may have been able to been manufacturing weapons
Speaker 3: into automatic and essentially illegal in some form or another.
Speaker 3: Now I will say on this specific thing, I believe
Speaker 3: in a I think this is gonna be I'm gonna
Speaker 3: mess up her name, but the book is Blowback, and
Speaker 3: her person name is Margaret. I can whatever anyways she
Speaker 3: there's gonna be book coming out soon. I want to say,
Speaker 3: there's gonna be something more in there that's gonna tie
Speaker 3: in pat con to that. So anyway, it's point beings
Speaker 3: I think there might be more to the pretense coming
Speaker 3: soon to some revealed information. But either way, that the
Speaker 3: pretense we were given, you know, before this, before this
Speaker 3: new information might be coming in an upcoming book, is
Speaker 3: that it was it was it was the guns. So
Speaker 3: it was it was the guns. And this is the
Speaker 3: kind of flimsy start of it. So with that, I
Speaker 3: guess we should probably go into a chronological I mean,
Speaker 3: I guess the best place to probably start to be
Speaker 3: the before the actual so the the you know, now,
Speaker 3: as I mentioned, you know that now they're looking, they're
Speaker 3: trying to hem somebody up. Now the the justification you're
Speaker 3: being guns so they do end up sending. I mean,
Speaker 3: if you want to start before this, feel free to
Speaker 3: let me know. But obviously, probably I think probably the
Speaker 3: best in my opinion, maybe one of the better spots
Speaker 3: spots to start obviously would be where they start throwing
Speaker 3: in a and you kind of down the road some
Speaker 3: FEDS that move in type deal, having undercover feds kind
Speaker 3: of keep an eye on the group and making friends.
Speaker 3: I mean, that might be the better place to start.
Speaker 3: If you have this other spot you'd rather start, you
Speaker 3: think it's a better place to you let me know,
Speaker 3: but go ahead, floors yours.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. Obviously, in February twenty eighth, ninety three,
Speaker 1: just six days or six months, I mean after the siege, right,
Speaker 1: more than eighty agents from the BATF. I'm talking about
Speaker 1: the Ruby Ridge siege, right, and the siege at Ruby Ridge,
Speaker 1: That's what I intended to say. But February twenty eight
Speaker 1: to ninety three, just six months after the siege, that's
Speaker 1: when the eighty agents from the BATF planned the sudden
Speaker 1: daylight raid in order to serve the search warrant for
Speaker 1: the compound as well as the arrest warrant for Koresh four,
Speaker 1: potentially violating federal firearms regulations. That was the motivation. Of course,
Speaker 1: the search warrant was obtained due to suspicion of modifying
Speaker 1: the weapons to have automatic fire capability because of a
Speaker 1: claim that Koresh had purchased these kits with M sixteen
Speaker 1: lower receiver parts and the ATF allegations were that David
Speaker 1: could have been combining M sixteen trigger components with a
Speaker 1: modified AR fifteen lower receiver, which is, according to ATF regulations,
Speaker 1: constructive posi ession of an unregistered machine gun without paying
Speaker 1: the two hundred dollars tax for legality. It's fucking ruby
Speaker 1: Ridge man, you know what I'm saying, And like bullshit
Speaker 1: two hundred.
Speaker 3: Dollars tax, show me the person, I'll find you a crime.
Speaker 1: One hundred and by the way, what's I mean? A
Speaker 1: lot of green Berets were going through some strange things
Speaker 1: that became scandalous and historical history, you know, in recent
Speaker 1: historical you know that that's as far as uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a point that that all all the attempt real quick.
Speaker 3: I want to back real quick. I just wanted to
Speaker 3: give someone their due. I couldn't think of their name
Speaker 3: a second. It's Margaret Roberts. That's the name. I couldn't
Speaker 3: remember the last name. I looked it up real quick
Speaker 3: because I felt shitty. So Margaret Roberts. She has an
Speaker 3: upcoming book called Blowback. She should be coming out in July,
Speaker 3: so keep an eye on that. That's going to be
Speaker 3: focused on more about the local and city bombing and
Speaker 3: how that ties in the FBI. So I think what
Speaker 3: I'm referencing to is pat Con type stuff, which pat
Speaker 3: Con is kind of, you know, the fed connective tissue
Speaker 3: between you know, all these probably really going all the
Speaker 3: way back to like Waco, maybe even before maybe me
Speaker 3: and Ruby Ridge possibly, uh you know, and then all
Speaker 3: the way up to like fast and Furious Obama era.
Speaker 3: So yeah, so that's a but that's what I'm referencing to.
Speaker 3: It looks like there there are lots of implications that
Speaker 3: there were pat Con elements to Waco, do Ruby Ridge.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean these are these are from statements
Speaker 3: from yeah, but go.
Speaker 1: On, oh no, I'm just like, yeah, you're you're you're
Speaker 1: exactly right. I'm chopping at the bit only because you're
Speaker 1: so you're so accurate, And that's good meaning, it's just
Speaker 1: you already know man, that Jesse Trinda did the work,
Speaker 1: you know. And and the fact of the matter is
Speaker 1: that he he had been told right by by the
Speaker 1: uh what was it the Matthews. Yeah, yeah, And and
Speaker 1: basically he got that phone call right and and he's
Speaker 1: he's told that I've been seeing what's being posted on
Speaker 1: the internet from your foil suits with the FBI. He
Speaker 1: tells Trinidoo, you have all the pieces, but you just
Speaker 1: haven't put them together. And Trinidu said, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: And he said, well, you just don't see the picture.
Speaker 1: And so he came to see him and directed him
Speaker 1: to Newsweek magazine and to some other reporters. He had
Speaker 1: been one of the top undercover operatives for the FBI
Speaker 1: and Pat Cohn for almost ten years. He had infiltrated
Speaker 1: some twenty three groups. He started out believing that it
Speaker 1: was the right thing. He wasn't you know. So many
Speaker 1: of these informants are people who are caught in the
Speaker 1: act of committing a crime and are forced to go
Speaker 1: undercover for the FBI. He did it voluntarily because he
Speaker 1: thought these hate groups, what they described to him as
Speaker 1: hate groups, were dangerous. In hindsight, he said, looking back
Speaker 1: on it, he sees now that the agenda. The agenda
Speaker 1: was to infiltrate and incite the militia movement, the right
Speaker 1: wing Christian movement to violence, so that the Justice Department
Speaker 1: could crush them. He said that Ruby Ridge was a
Speaker 1: pat Con operation. He said that Waco was a pat
Speaker 1: Con operation. He believed that Oklahoma City was, but he
Speaker 1: wasn't involved in it. But he did say that other
Speaker 1: members of the pat Con group were involved in the
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City bombing. Like that is just so crazy, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he spotted a what he spotted, uh, Andreas Strasmeyer
Speaker 3: with McVeigh at dl I. So yeah, Texas Light Infantry
Speaker 3: in San Saba, Texas.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so crazy to me. But it is just
Speaker 1: the reality of this, you know, and anyway, the environment
Speaker 1: at the time, total information awareness, this was a goal.
Speaker 3: Oh oh yeah, and he asked sorry, he asked. An
Speaker 3: email exchange with Matthews and his handler Don Jarted, he
Speaker 3: mentioned I believe he was talking about the Venans, Aarian movement.
Speaker 3: They were talking about that, which is kind of a
Speaker 3: known front in the past. I believe that I want
Speaker 3: to say, was that one they were referencing, and then
Speaker 3: they said something about the God why can't think of
Speaker 3: their name right now? The not the Aloheim Band, the
Speaker 3: Helloeim bandits guy, the Halloween guys. Why can you think
Speaker 3: of their name right now? Uh?
Speaker 2: Fuck?
Speaker 3: The group of them. There was the a R, the ARH,
Speaker 3: the the group the bank robbers that were kind of
Speaker 3: sort of situated out of the out of Ellowheem city.
Speaker 3: Uh the uh that he said that that was a
Speaker 3: front in that in that email one that he says, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: that one's a front two type and he said I
Speaker 3: remember if you asked him, like, oh what about that
Speaker 3: one or whatever. But essentially Don Jered in the kind
Speaker 3: of like a passing comment essentially confirmed that, yes, the
Speaker 3: AAR was the front of some sort And you're like,
Speaker 3: WHOA So obviously, I mean, I don't know who obviously
Speaker 3: if I had to guess, Uh, probably McCarthy out of
Speaker 3: the group, if I had to guess. But I mean, really,
Speaker 3: it's like any one of those people could have been
Speaker 3: an informant. But anyways, I digress just I mean, obviously
Speaker 3: we could get lost in all the you know, the pointing,
Speaker 3: all the different glowing, the glowing nodes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I was just h yeah, just Trinity
Speaker 1: to himself. He's just such a such such a valuable resource, right,
Speaker 1: But anyway, I just knowing, Yeah, first of all, just
Speaker 1: the motivation for for the initial serving of the warrant.
Speaker 1: But but then of course the original the original investigation
Speaker 1: as well. You know, it's it's it's interesting because that
Speaker 1: began in ninety two when the ATF became concerned over
Speaker 1: these reports of automatic gunfire allegedly coming from the Mount
Speaker 1: Carmel Center, which really raised a lot of red flags
Speaker 1: from me, Like that was truly, what are you you?
Speaker 1: Truly it almost seemed like the Randy Weaver justification. Oh,
Speaker 1: he had a pissy neighbor who fucking hated him and
Speaker 1: wrote all these crazy letters saying he was going to
Speaker 1: assassinate and put you know, these these authorities and officials
Speaker 1: in the government and the pope or some shit and it,
Speaker 1: which is just crazy and and but you know, on
Speaker 1: a man reflecting back, and this is of course just
Speaker 1: kind of a gut reaction to it. It kind of
Speaker 1: glows in general, and it smells very, very at the
Speaker 1: very least, like something worth prying into at a deeper level.
Speaker 1: And because but again, this is just kind of an
Speaker 1: inclination that I have just from from here.
Speaker 3: You know, look how vague they kind of leave the
Speaker 3: justifications when it comes to Wager. But you look at
Speaker 3: other things like Riby Ridge. We know, we know, we
Speaker 3: know the justifications, but it's like, why there's this kind
Speaker 3: of this fog when you look into like the justifications
Speaker 3: for Waco, You're like, what are you not telling us?
Speaker 3: What wi little what little beast putting information's hidden in
Speaker 3: the in the probably FBI, you know, somewhere.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. And by the way, why is Colonel Bogritz
Speaker 1: Like he shows up everywhere at this time, former Green
Speaker 1: Break commander and he's like training the Afghan Mujahadeen and
Speaker 1: domestic black sites in the US.
Speaker 3: Wasn't he grits in Jonestown too?
Speaker 2: Or no?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, he's one talking about Johnstown being a cover
Speaker 1: up and how it was basically they took all the
Speaker 1: MK ultra loose sins and throw them in Jonson's ship.
Speaker 1: That's why the stacking bodies happened. Yeah, that was both
Speaker 1: that said that both said that, Yeah, he said he
Speaker 1: was informed by Green Break. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 1: Again, it's like almost like Ted Gunderson type where it's
Speaker 1: like they glow. They glow in many ways, but still
Speaker 1: it's also, how do you not when you're a former
Speaker 1: official who is like blowing the whistle, you know, attempting
Speaker 1: to expose and investigate these things, You're always going to glow.
Speaker 1: You're a former fed you know, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's just a difficult. Sorry, it's hard going
Speaker 1: to trust you whole lot.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: I'll take what you have to say. If you give
Speaker 1: me an excruciate, excruciating detail that seems to corroborate so
Speaker 1: much of what I already know, then damn I might
Speaker 1: have to at least mention it. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: And that's I mean, that's how you have to really
Speaker 1: behave at this point and take it for what it is.
Speaker 1: But it's like I am beginning to kind of view anyway,
Speaker 1: I won't get too far ahead of myself, will get
Speaker 1: into really the crux of the issue here, but I
Speaker 1: am saying that I will say that reflecting back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm beginning to view this entirely just much differently that
Speaker 1: I feel like this could potentially be a much more
Speaker 1: of a layered operation than I had, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: just considered, you know previously. But so anyway, the point
Speaker 1: being here is that you have this this strange, you know,
Speaker 1: report of gunfire automatic gunfire coming from the Center, which
Speaker 1: launched the original investigation in ninety two by the ATF.
Speaker 1: Now consider the fact that obviously, you know, the ATF,
Speaker 1: they are very much looking for a press opportunity at
Speaker 1: this moment. Right and during the congressional inquiry following the
Speaker 1: ATF siege of the Branch Davidian Complex, Henry Ruth, one
Speaker 1: of the three independent reviewers from the US Treasury Department,
Speaker 1: he had testified that the ATF needed good publicity with
Speaker 1: its appropriations hearings a week away. A successful raid this
Speaker 1: size would produce major positive headlines to counter the ATF's
Speaker 1: reputation as a rogue agency whose debacles blackened the reputations
Speaker 1: of other agencies, and it would scare the public enough
Speaker 1: about fringe groups to create political pressure on Congress to
Speaker 1: increase its budget. So you also have to consider, obviously,
Speaker 1: the new incoming administration. Apparently this operation had had basically
Speaker 1: already been staged in many ways prior to the Clinton's
Speaker 1: taking office and assuming office, But the ATF was vying
Speaker 1: for funding at the time as well, and so they're
Speaker 1: looking for press opportunities to prove their their worth. And
Speaker 1: the siege of the Branch Davidian complex I think accomplished
Speaker 1: again layered objectives that were very very necessary at the time,
Speaker 1: and the timing of it as well was very I
Speaker 1: think strategic. But we'll get into like a small wrinkle
Speaker 1: at the end of the conversation. I think it's very worthwhile.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so you have again right, remember the fact
Speaker 1: the constructive possession of the unregistered machine gun without paying
Speaker 1: the tax, the two hundred dollars tax for legality, and
Speaker 1: also none of that being proven. And the Davidians were
Speaker 1: obviously known for partly supporting themselves by trading at gun shows,
Speaker 1: always having the relevant paperwork. Even one of the members,
Speaker 1: Paul Fada, was a licensed federal firearms dealer operating a
Speaker 1: retail gun business called the mag Bag. So it's like this,
Speaker 1: this was a known lucrative avenue of right of profit
Speaker 1: from the group itself and the branch Davidians. So it's
Speaker 1: in no way strange for the time either in the
Speaker 1: area either you know what I mean. And so considering
Speaker 1: those two things, you.
Speaker 3: Know, did we mention the drug thing yet or no,
Speaker 3: I forget I did mention just briefly I mentioned. Okay,
Speaker 3: I must have missed that in passing. Okay, I just
Speaker 3: want to make sure we emphasize that, because that was
Speaker 3: so far as justifications, and if I recall correctly, they
Speaker 3: needed a drug a drug component in order to get
Speaker 3: some other part of I forget what specifically one of
Speaker 3: your recalls physically needed to for that. Why the drugs
Speaker 3: were so essential to be there being some sort of
Speaker 3: drug component there. I think it had something to do
Speaker 3: with the no NAC no knock side of it, doesn't
Speaker 3: it at the raid to justify a raid because like, oh,
Speaker 3: you can say they had drugs, so theoretically they could
Speaker 3: be flushing some shit or something.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, you're totally right. I haven't yet.
Speaker 3: I haven't, okay, because I was like, there was a
Speaker 3: time where I was like I felt like we should
Speaker 3: have covered that. So I was like, okay, cool, sorry, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I just make sure I wasn't repeating something you already said,
Speaker 3: I'm like I.
Speaker 1: Should have right, no, but yeah, you're absolutely right. That
Speaker 1: was that was a major part in how they justified
Speaker 1: really getting access to this warrant in the first place,
Speaker 1: which allowed the no knock to take place. And that
Speaker 1: is but obviously, as I had mentioned, though, you have
Speaker 1: this ATF agent David Aguilera, which we have to at
Speaker 1: least mention him before we offer up this this justification
Speaker 1: because you know, there's there's a key prominent role that's
Speaker 1: being played here. Because Aguilera and Agent Skinner visited one
Speaker 1: of the Branch Davidians gun dealers, Henry McMahon, who tried
Speaker 1: to get them to talk to Koresh on the phone.
Speaker 1: Koresh offered to let ATF inspect the Branch Davidians as
Speaker 1: far as their weapons and paperwork, and even asked to
Speaker 1: speak to Agent Aguilera, but he declined, and so the
Speaker 1: Waco Tribune Herald reported the sheriff harwell, he explained that
Speaker 1: regarding law enforcement talking with Koresh, just go out there
Speaker 1: and talk to them. What's wrong with notify them. That's
Speaker 1: what he's telling the authorities, and that's the sheriff, right,
Speaker 1: And instead the ATF would use the affidavit filed by
Speaker 1: Special Agent David Aguilera to obtain the warrants that led
Speaker 1: to the Waco siege, even admitting in the affidavit that
Speaker 1: neither the noise complaints nor the items ordered were necessarily illegal,
Speaker 1: which is another part of this that very much proves
Speaker 1: the fact that this was a violation, you know, of
Speaker 1: the rights of the Davidians in the first place, and
Speaker 1: entirely unjustified.
Speaker 3: But once again, I go back to there's just something
Speaker 3: weird that I feel like there's a murky area where
Speaker 3: we just don't really know and there should be. There's
Speaker 3: just something more, you'd think, And it's almost as if
Speaker 3: like maybe something somewhere went just a little bit awry.
Speaker 3: Obviously this whole thing went awry, and they're like, oh shit,
Speaker 3: so maybe we can't roll this out in the narrative
Speaker 3: game like we thought we could. All Right, we'll kind
Speaker 3: of throw a few vague sort of implications of legal things,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Because I mean this is
Speaker 3: kind of a hot pods of different things thrown together,
Speaker 3: no real legal pretense at all that gives it there's
Speaker 3: any good, any credibility, you know, this is it's pretty pathetic,
Speaker 3: which but I mean not to I mean, I guess
Speaker 3: maybe that could really be all there is, but just
Speaker 3: makes you feel like there's something else, which the implication
Speaker 3: would be something in connection to an informant of some sort,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Like that's like like, is
Speaker 3: there some sort of element in there, some sort of
Speaker 3: informant that introduced a criminal element And then now you're like,
Speaker 3: oh crap, something about this you don't feel you can't
Speaker 3: disclose now, and that's why you didn't. But it was
Speaker 3: always intended on that being the case. And then obviously
Speaker 3: it wanted to do a very different way. I don't know,
Speaker 3: you know, obviously maybe now it looks improper to be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: this guy and you're like, oh, well, you kind of
Speaker 3: kill them all, So maybe don't say this guy was
Speaker 3: really an informant the whole time or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And by the way, there is there are
Speaker 1: two former CIA officials who claim that David Koresh has
Speaker 1: a CIA background, But we'll get into that in a
Speaker 1: little while. Okay, so everybody calmed out. I swear I
Speaker 1: reflecting back on this entirely different approach, as much as
Speaker 1: I don't as much as the result and the conclusion
Speaker 1: remains the same, you know, because it truly does philosophically,
Speaker 1: principally obviously you know, the consequential outcome. The result alone
Speaker 1: is the ultimate example of what your government is capable of,
Speaker 1: and the breach and violation of fundamental basic rights and
Speaker 1: human individual sovereignty, I mean, in every way. So none
Speaker 1: of that changes, but there are definitely additional layers that
Speaker 1: we should be willing to acknowledge and consider as at
Speaker 1: least being plausible or potentially viable, or just being complete
Speaker 1: and total nonsense, but at least acknowledging the fact that
Speaker 1: the theory exists. I mean, it's important, but the level
Speaker 1: of detail, that's what gives me pause. So but before
Speaker 1: we get into any of that, I think it's it's
Speaker 1: important to continue on with laying out really the injustice
Speaker 1: that we're witnessing. It took place here, and because again
Speaker 1: none of this was necessarily illegal, and the Davidians were
Speaker 1: known for being very cordial with everyone in the surrounding community,
Speaker 1: seemingly held in high regard by most people, including the
Speaker 1: local sheriff, which I had mentioned before, and they were
Speaker 1: known for having daily devotionals studying the scripture for over
Speaker 1: eight hours at a time, and by every account they
Speaker 1: barely even drank, except for at most a couple of
Speaker 1: beers at a get together every few months, but no
Speaker 1: more than three, said former member David Thibodeau. But before
Speaker 1: the ATF could follow through with the search warrant, they
Speaker 1: needed to prove an operational drug nexus Jose in order
Speaker 1: to obtain military assets for the raid that would crucial
Speaker 1: aspect of the drug nexus, So the ATF's investigation primarily
Speaker 1: focused on firearms up until this point, but in a
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine report to the Secretary of Defense, the
Speaker 1: Attorney General and the Secretary of the Treasury titled Military
Speaker 1: Assistants provided a branch Davidian incident, and the ATF made
Speaker 1: a claim that Koresh was possibly operating a methamphetamine lab,
Speaker 1: requesting assistance from the DEA in the United States Department
Speaker 1: of Defense, citing a drug connection based on a recent
Speaker 1: delivery to the compound of chemicals, instruments, and glassware, as
Speaker 1: well as National Guard overflights thermal images showing a supposed
Speaker 1: hot spot inside the compound, possibly indicating a methan fetamine laboratory,
Speaker 1: that's what they're claiming.
Speaker 3: Probably just their wood furnace. Probably it is me if
Speaker 3: I recall correctly, It wasn't the only bit of precedence,
Speaker 3: that the only bit of credibility there was to this
Speaker 3: was that there I guess there was some sort.
Speaker 1: Of meth something before the property. Yes, there he was
Speaker 1: the sun the Rodent's son that was, you know, overlooked
Speaker 1: as the prophet, right he was, he was out there,
Speaker 1: but they killed his ass by the way. But oh yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a crazy story. Oh my god.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they got they got.
Speaker 1: Caught up for a murder which I didn't even realize
Speaker 1: was like a huge factor that played out with with
Speaker 1: David Koresh and and how he kind of took over
Speaker 1: and had this this crazy dispute with the original Rodent son.
Speaker 1: Uh and yeah, it's it's super crazy. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: remember all the details there because and he's fucking murdered.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, here we go, here we go. Because
Speaker 1: they after the trial basically because there were a few
Speaker 1: conspirator co conspirators with Koresh that were on trial for
Speaker 1: the murder of this guy, and it was all basically
Speaker 1: Lois Rodin died right the woman that had groomed David Koresh,
Speaker 1: and she died in November of eighty six, and so
Speaker 1: a probate of her estate. In January eighty seven, Hawell
Speaker 1: attempted to gain control of Mount Carmel Center by force.
Speaker 1: So George Roden had dug up the casket. It sounds
Speaker 1: like they're doing occult rituals or some shit. Dude, They're
Speaker 1: these digging up bodies. It's so crazy. So the Sun
Speaker 1: George Roden digs up the casket of Anna Hughes from
Speaker 1: the Davidian Cemetery and had challenged how David Koresh Vernon
Speaker 1: Wayne Howe to a resurrection contest to prove who was
Speaker 1: the rightful heir to the leadership. So this is the
Speaker 1: funniest thing, ever, because how I'm and uh correct for that.
Speaker 1: That's what they'd say that he was he was cooking
Speaker 1: meth out there, he was tripping, and that he was
Speaker 1: just yeah, tweaking his balls out.
Speaker 3: He could have, but like David can do it, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna it's possible, but it's staying up late at night
Speaker 3: just methan out, Like I'm gonna learn to be close.
Speaker 1: To God dead body, you know, dud fucking crazy. But
Speaker 1: I remember when I discovered that part of this, this
Speaker 1: whole background, it did it like gave it made me
Speaker 1: sit there for a moment and and really just consider fitting.
Speaker 3: What the.
Speaker 1: It's nuts. But so this is the funniest part because
Speaker 1: David really just plays this dude. It's it's honestly, it's amazing.
Speaker 1: So it turns out that that uh and by the way,
Speaker 1: obviously there was this division that had considered the fact
Speaker 1: that prior to this that the split was very much
Speaker 1: there was a huge fracture in the group. So there
Speaker 1: was a leading the basically George Roden was leading the competition,
Speaker 1: and apparently George Roden ran Howell and his followers off
Speaker 1: of Mount Carmel at gunpoint. So that's how all of
Speaker 1: this began, and Howl and his group relocated to none
Speaker 1: other than Palestine, Texas anyway. So it's crazy because after
Speaker 1: he digs up George Roden digs up the casket of
Speaker 1: Vanna Hughes from the Davidian Cemetery and challenges Vernon Howell
Speaker 1: to this to this resurrection contest, Hal went to the
Speaker 1: police and claims that Rodin was guilty of corpse abuse,
Speaker 1: how fucking funny. But the county prosecutors refused to file
Speaker 1: charges without proof. So this is when he takes it
Speaker 1: upon himself to get the evidence required. So this is
Speaker 1: where I start to go, was this really happening? George?
Speaker 1: And get set the fuck up? I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know who.
Speaker 3: Knows, all right, Like what are you dropping a fucking
Speaker 3: corpse at the fuck you? How do you prove that
Speaker 3: other than like here's the corpse and you're like, well,
Speaker 3: now it looks like you did it.
Speaker 1: So this is how it plays out. So November third,
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, Howl and seven armed companions. Companions tried
Speaker 1: to get into the Mount Carmel chapel, intending to photograph
Speaker 1: the body in the casket as incriminating evidence. So Rodin
Speaker 1: was informed of the interlopers an open fire, So we
Speaker 1: have a firefight taking place Mount Carmel. The Sheriff's department
Speaker 1: responded in twenty minutes into the gunfight and during which
Speaker 1: Rodin had been wounded. So we have Sheriff Harwell, he
Speaker 1: gets Howl on the phone, who tells him and then
Speaker 1: obviously tells Vernon Hall to stop shooting and to surrender.
Speaker 1: Howl and his companions, dubbed the Rodinville eight by the media.
Speaker 1: We're tried for attempted murder. On April twelfth, nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 1: Seven were acquitted and the jury hung on Hal's verdict.
Speaker 1: The county prosecutors did not press the case further. It
Speaker 1: sounds very weird, right, like this guy straight up murdered him.
Speaker 1: And so even with all the effort to bring the
Speaker 1: casket to court, the standing judge refused to use it
Speaker 1: as evidence for the case, and Judge Herman Fitz ruled
Speaker 1: that the courtroom is no place for a casket. When
Speaker 1: defense attorney Gary Kocher requested it be used as evidence
Speaker 1: for the case, eight men, including six of the defendants,
Speaker 1: forced to carry the casket away from the courthouse and
Speaker 1: down the street to a van awaiting the body. In
Speaker 1: response to questions about the body, Rodin admitted to attempting
Speaker 1: to resurrect Hughes on three occasions. So that wasn't an acknowledgement.
Speaker 3: That's crazy to bring him back from the dead. Oh wow,
Speaker 3: all right, well I fucked up Rodin. Okay, Oh dude,
Speaker 3: this is the part that was so yeah, yeah, my.
Speaker 1: Bad, my beat. So they didn't actually kill him. He
Speaker 1: didn't actually die of the wounds that he that he
Speaker 1: sustained during the firefight. That was just from memory that
Speaker 1: I was remembering that one. But I had thought that
Speaker 1: he died. But here's why, because it was while he
Speaker 1: was waiting for trial that he's Rodent's put in jail
Speaker 1: right under contemptive court charges because of his use of
Speaker 1: foul language. So he's, yeah, charged with contemptive court. So
Speaker 1: he threatened the Texas court with sexually transmitted diseases if
Speaker 1: the court ruled in Howell's favor. Yeah, So alongside these charges,
Speaker 1: Rodin was jailed for six months for legal motions he
Speaker 1: filed with explicit language. He faced ninety days in jail
Speaker 1: for living on the property after being ordered to neither
Speaker 1: live on the property nor call himself the leader of
Speaker 1: the religious group in the seventy nine case. And soon
Speaker 1: after the trial, several of How's followers moved from their
Speaker 1: headquarters in Palestine, Texas, back to Mount Carmel in the compound.
Speaker 1: And it was in mid eighty nine when Rodin used
Speaker 1: an axe to kill a Davidian named Wayman Dale eight
Speaker 1: Yeah a dare Yeah, yeah, who visited him to discuss
Speaker 1: Adair's alleged vision of being God's chosen Messiah. Hummm, he
Speaker 1: was found a bunch.
Speaker 3: Of people over here to think they're Massias. We got
Speaker 3: like a Messiah frigging King of the hill going on.
Speaker 1: I'm telling you. He's found guilty under an insanity defense
Speaker 1: and was committed to a mental hospital.
Speaker 3: Another dude was found guilty. Uh okay rod In.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, because he uh used the axe to kill
Speaker 1: this Davidian member name the other.
Speaker 3: The guy he killed was another person making a Messiah claim. Essentially, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: so it was.
Speaker 1: It was an eighty nine. I know it sounds ridiculous,
Speaker 1: but this is the background of Davidians.
Speaker 3: Messiah is running around fucking fighting each other.
Speaker 1: Right, So it was Rodin in mid eighty nine when
Speaker 1: Davidian Wayman Dale Adair visited him to discuss Adair's alleged
Speaker 1: vision of being God's chosen Messiah. And and that is
Speaker 1: when Rodin you are and then uses the insanity defense
Speaker 1: gets committed to a mental hospital. And apparently just after
Speaker 1: this takes place, Vernon Hall raised the money to pay
Speaker 1: off all the back taxes on Mount Carmel owed by
Speaker 1: Rodin and took legal control of the property.
Speaker 3: I already have a good one liner after it kills him,
Speaker 3: God called psych.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's too funny, dude.
Speaker 3: All right, yeah, that's ridiculous. That's quite the crazy. I
Speaker 3: didn't even know how to like it, like he how
Speaker 3: to fit that into my understanding. It is just an
Speaker 3: odd little mm hmm. It's like after doing a puzzle
Speaker 3: and you have this one weird ass piece it looks
Speaker 3: like from a whole other different puzzle. You're like, what
Speaker 3: is this doing here? You're like, no, this is for
Speaker 3: this puzzle, Like I don't think it is. Okay, right,
Speaker 3: that's what you would think, man. But uh yeah, look
Speaker 3: up a picture of George Roden, George Buchanan Rodin. He uh,
Speaker 3: he doesn't look quite like I. I I definitely don't
Speaker 3: see him as like just some tweaker out there, you know,
Speaker 3: George R. O. D e In.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, George Roden R O.
Speaker 3: D e En, George Buchanan Rodin images.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean even just the Wikipedia of George
Speaker 1: Roden is just like strange.
Speaker 3: Would you know this guy right here?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, that's the dude.
Speaker 3: What the hell, dude, that's freaking uh that's a country
Speaker 3: music singer. What's his name? That looks like the dude
Speaker 3: who's like, yeah, the serial killer guy.
Speaker 1: I mean Tobe Keith or something.
Speaker 3: No, it's not Tobe Keith. Why can't they they give it?
Speaker 3: I know it is like my dad was a big
Speaker 3: fan of his grown up it wasn't all of his music.
Speaker 3: God could not whatever. I'll think of it later and
Speaker 3: when it doesn't fucking matter, crazy inappropriate to bring it up,
Speaker 3: It's okay.
Speaker 1: But yeah, he made it to apparently December eighth, nineteen eight,
Speaker 1: ninety eight, so he ended up living for a good
Speaker 1: I don't know what five years after when is it
Speaker 1: ninety three?
Speaker 3: I feel like he would have been a cool messiah.
Speaker 3: He looked like he would have been a cool messiah.
Speaker 3: But anyways, let's move on from whatever the hell that is.
Speaker 1: But yeah, see even his Wikipedia here says in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty seven, he was evicted from the Malcrmel Center near Waco,
Speaker 1: Texas by his rival David Koresh. He was later confined
Speaker 1: in a Texas mental hospital for a nineteen eighty nine
Speaker 1: murder until his own death in nineteen ninety eight. So
Speaker 1: that that is the back round of how David Koresh
Speaker 1: gained access to the property at Mount Carmel, which is
Speaker 1: really kind of a hilarious story. And to be honest,
Speaker 1: as much as Garth Brooks, that's the one man, by
Speaker 1: the way.
Speaker 3: To be clear, for any if there's any any any
Speaker 3: legal stuff going on, it was I wasn't saying he
Speaker 3: is zero. I'm saying that's the thing out there. But
Speaker 3: let's all anyways, I guess, uh, let's get back into
Speaker 3: where where were we at? I don't know if there's
Speaker 3: more to dwell on here. That's wild. I don't know
Speaker 3: what to do with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, really, honestly, was that in the wild?
Speaker 3: Category didn't move on for sure? That was that I
Speaker 3: didn't even like string together conspiracy theories.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, okay, I'm telling you. That's why I didn't.
Speaker 1: That's a major reason why I didn't put that story
Speaker 1: in the original episode. I did on this because it
Speaker 1: was like, how can I make this tangent like seamlessly
Speaker 1: a part of the conceptual outline of this narrative. It's
Speaker 1: basically a very possible task. But anyway, so you also
Speaker 1: have to understand that you know, understanding like really just
Speaker 1: the reality of I was mentioning how the local sheriff
Speaker 1: and and all the just locals surrounding the branch Davidians.
Speaker 1: They were claiming that, right, they were all effectively cordial
Speaker 1: and essentially you know, very well to do and and
Speaker 1: you know, I would say, just functional members of society
Speaker 1: at the time, right, and as far as the local
Speaker 1: community was concerned, they weren't really considered by the local
Speaker 1: community to be like these outsiders and weird psychos or
Speaker 1: at least to any real extent. That wasn't the narrative
Speaker 1: surrounding them in any way. But you know, beyond that,
Speaker 1: obviously you had this this strange what we had left
Speaker 1: off kind of spotlighting was the reality of the the
Speaker 1: ATF claim of the methamphetamine laboratory potentially possibly was the
Speaker 1: term they used being operated by Koresh, which allowed them
Speaker 1: to request the assistance from the DEA and US Department
Speaker 1: of Defense for the drug connection for for essentially you
Speaker 1: know what became you know, just military, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: you look at it's just like Ruby Ridge. It looks
Speaker 1: like they have this this base of operations that's straight
Speaker 1: up you know, in in you know, some sort of
Speaker 1: it is absolutely Joint Task Force yeah, it's an extraordinary
Speaker 1: thing to witness. Honestly, man, Oh, I have like a
Speaker 1: very small clip we could play that would would kind
Speaker 1: of like introduce that to and like get a view
Speaker 1: of the branch Davidians and in the the only footage
Speaker 1: of them during during the time, which is really interesting.
Speaker 1: And there's also a child who's like asking the sheriff, like,
Speaker 1: you're not going to come in and kill us, right,
Speaker 1: I didn't even know that that existed, but yeah, here,
Speaker 1: I'll show it to you real quick, let me pull
Speaker 1: it up.
Speaker 3: But they didn't take a time to I didn't. I
Speaker 3: don't think I really emphasized. I mean, you mentioned it earlier,
Speaker 3: but I just this is one of those one of
Speaker 3: these I felt like we should emphasize the idea that
Speaker 3: David did multiple times tell multiple people within his congregation
Speaker 3: claims that they were going to be essentially the federal
Speaker 3: government or something, you know, tanks, helicopters, whatever. So I
Speaker 3: just think that's worthwhile. Obviously, you can say he predicted it,
Speaker 3: or you can say there's something more to it. I
Speaker 3: don't know either way.
Speaker 1: Obviously, the timing, which is just so extraordinary to me,
Speaker 1: you know, like not only did he predict exactly what
Speaker 1: would happen with the timing, so obviously the Rules of Engagement,
Speaker 1: which which was you know, published and produced in ninety seven.
Speaker 1: The first couple of minutes of this, it's really an
Speaker 1: extraordinary introduction to just the people themselves, you know, and
Speaker 1: and and it's it's it's a fascinating couple of minutes. Uh.
Speaker 3: Actually, I don't think we can. This is totally gonna
Speaker 3: get the copyright.
Speaker 1: I just think about it.
Speaker 3: It's totally gonna get the copyright. Things I really wanted
Speaker 3: to be just I don't know what the rules are
Speaker 3: on copyright, but uh, I mean because it.
Speaker 1: Was a I mean especially because the show the beginning
Speaker 1: copyright huh we think that alone would copyright us just
Speaker 1: from me showing that for a.
Speaker 3: Moment, how long we talk, because I think it's something
Speaker 3: like I was just.
Speaker 1: Gonna show like two minutes, honestly, just because I wanted, like, yeah.
Speaker 3: We'll play screw it. Worst case scenario, it gets taken
Speaker 3: down and I got our movie later. I think we
Speaker 3: should be fine, screw it, play it. I think so, yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know the copyright rus plus I think likely
Speaker 3: I just take down demonetization but especially if you can
Speaker 3: fast forward plast the past, the beginning parts where it's
Speaker 3: not just film stuff. But I'm assuming you're showing some
Speaker 3: sort of clip. But let's go ahead and you can
Speaker 3: play it. Let's go and play it. Screw it, risk
Speaker 3: it for the biscuit.
Speaker 1: So the fifth of the fifth of State is the
Speaker 1: CBC though, right, So, I honestly it's.
Speaker 2: David.
Speaker 1: He believes that you're fixing to hit it at No,
Speaker 1: we are not fixing to hit you.
Speaker 3: That is not true.
Speaker 1: Nobody's coming in there. Okay, you got my word.
Speaker 3: It's solid.
Speaker 1: It's negotiations. Okay, atf negotiation tape February twenty eighth, nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three. I know, I know that everybody's kittish, but
Speaker 1: you know, we just got to work on the kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah wait, I.
Speaker 1: Was crazy, honey.
Speaker 3: Reason What was the date on that again? Was that?
Speaker 3: Real quick? What was the date on one that that
Speaker 3: tape was?
Speaker 1: It was?
Speaker 3: It was nobody.
Speaker 1: Nobody's coming in there. Okay, you go station until February twenty.
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, I know I know that everybody's skittish.
Speaker 1: But remember remember fifteenth right day siege, right, yeah, so
Speaker 1: this is right after the initial Yeah wait what, no, honey,
Speaker 1: no reason charm so crazy? No, I never heard the
Speaker 1: hostage negotiator talking to the child before. Yeah, that footage
Speaker 1: is pretty extraordinary, man, I know. I actually do have
Speaker 1: a clip from the nine to one one call from
Speaker 1: David questioned, I privately clear God to bring out of
Speaker 1: a situation if we do our part as his servants.
Speaker 1: The government does their part as whoever they are in
Speaker 1: the plan of God. What is it that God plans
Speaker 1: to bring out of it? That's the way they thought,
Speaker 1: all right, we're probably pushing it for copper.
Speaker 3: Is there anything more pertinent here?
Speaker 1: Is that all of that, there's a just like a
Speaker 1: couple extra statements that are made that are awesome. But
Speaker 1: again it's like, I don't want to push away my bad.
Speaker 3: I would have waited.
Speaker 1: I just thought that was all okay, there's just a
Speaker 1: couple more minutes, and I, well, actually, dude, we played
Speaker 1: it anyway, we might as well, because it actually just
Speaker 1: does show footage of the victims that before they actually died,
Speaker 1: and I didn't get to actually see the the the
Speaker 1: black family, and then I can actually, uh, yeah, go.
Speaker 3: For it, I thought, I thought. For the reason I
Speaker 3: thought it was that was done already.
Speaker 1: So it does slow roll though just for a moment
Speaker 1: with the intro there. Obviously, we never went in. We
Speaker 1: did not introduce fire to this compound. It was not
Speaker 1: our intention that this compound be burned down. I can't
Speaker 1: tell you the shock and the horror that all of
Speaker 1: us felt when we saw those flames coming out there.
Speaker 1: It was, oh my god, they're killing themselves. Listen to
Speaker 1: that statement, that's fascinating.
Speaker 3: Doesn't jump to making decisions before they heard our Right now,
Speaker 3: all you're hearing is the crack. You're very, very.
Speaker 1: Impressed that God read your Bible.
Speaker 3: Know what you're talking about?
Speaker 2: What are you doing with your life?
Speaker 3: What do you do every day with your life because
Speaker 3: something got approved of? I mean, before you judge, make
Speaker 3: sure your own life is clean, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean we're being.
Speaker 3: There's one more group that we believe that this thing
Speaker 3: had to be brought to a logical conclusion at some point.
Speaker 1: We never fired one single way.
Speaker 3: I think as long as we every so often comment,
Speaker 3: I think we're okay. This something to do with like
Speaker 3: a commentary allows unless someone's life was in danger.
Speaker 1: What was that guy's wolves of engagement? But they would
Speaker 1: not shoot unless someone's life was in danger. That's basically it.
Speaker 1: There is obviously the one Black family. But yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a couple more minutes longer than I wanted to actually share.
Speaker 1: So it's cool, no worries. But really, the main clip
Speaker 1: that I wanted to expose to everyone was the clip
Speaker 1: of the nine one one call, right, because that alone.
Speaker 3: The initial the initial koresh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, because that really did blow my mind.
Speaker 1: I was unaware. Oh my god, sorry, I just started
Speaker 1: playing it right away when I pulled it up. But
Speaker 1: let me see if I can present this, because it's
Speaker 1: actually just uh, I don't know if I can, damn it.
Speaker 1: Can I send this to you? Let me see if
Speaker 1: I can.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't have to show this.
Speaker 3: It probably won't work out really right right now, So
Speaker 3: I mean, if you, if you want, if you're able
Speaker 3: to do it while you're we're doing this, but you
Speaker 3: just say, I don't.
Speaker 1: Build, like, yeah, it's essentially on media. Your browsers has
Speaker 1: blocked your screen. Okay, fucking eh, all right, it's cool.
Speaker 1: We don't have to, but it really is, like if
Speaker 1: anybody does want to. I did make the clip a
Speaker 1: part of my episode originally and.
Speaker 3: At the beginning of the episode, if ever call correctly.
Speaker 1: Yep, Yeah, pretty much introduce it from the beginning, because
Speaker 1: first of all, he starts off by saying, we knew
Speaker 1: you were coming in everything you know, which which that
Speaker 1: alone obviously is worth mentioning. And this was a thirty
Speaker 1: minute tape played for members of the House Appropriation Subcommittee
Speaker 1: probing the siege, right, So that's when it was kind
Speaker 1: of more made public, and it was Yeah, June tenth,
Speaker 1: ninety three the Post they claimed that two months after
Speaker 1: the siege, Koresh called nine one one when raid began.
Speaker 1: A dramatic nine to one one tape of conversation between
Speaker 1: branch and leader David Koresh and local sheriff's deputies, recorded
Speaker 1: in the early moments of an armed confrontation in February,
Speaker 1: reveals that Koresh knew in advance that federal agents planned
Speaker 1: to storm the Coltswaco compound, and Koresh said he knew
Speaker 1: the identity of an undercover agent who had set up
Speaker 1: residents near the compound and infiltrated the group. This tape
Speaker 1: renewed questions about one of the most violent incidents in
Speaker 1: US law enforcement history and the decisions made by the
Speaker 1: ATF in planning for the failed raid, So top ATF
Speaker 1: officials obviously claimed that agents were instructed to abort the
Speaker 1: raid if the element of surprise was lost, and four
Speaker 1: ATF agents died in the February twenty eighth firefight. Fifty
Speaker 1: one days later, more than eighty Davidians, including Koresh, obviously,
Speaker 1: perished in the compound when it caught fire and burned
Speaker 1: after the FBI injected tear gas inside. The tape tinged
Speaker 1: with the sound of gunfire in the background, offers a
Speaker 1: window into the chaos of the raids early minutes, and
Speaker 1: that is when you know, you hear Wayne Martin also
Speaker 1: called and he says, you know, and as well as
Speaker 1: David Koresh said there are women and children in here, obviously,
Speaker 1: and that was he then reiterated that later when obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, the doors were blown apart and he was
Speaker 1: shot back into the compound right property itself. But so
Speaker 1: that alone, you know, it always it stems back to
Speaker 1: just this unnecessary escalation right by the government that obviously
Speaker 1: was in many ways, it was a layered operation that
Speaker 1: achieved many objectives, but it facilitated the growth of the
Speaker 1: state as well, and it facilitated that path of the
Speaker 1: Dystopi nightmare, you know, and the violation of our inherent rights.
Speaker 1: So that was an inherent example of the federal government's
Speaker 1: abuse of power, right, And I mean, so you know,
Speaker 1: talk about mishandling a conflict, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: And so sounds like that were probably right up until
Speaker 3: the actual up into the moment of the starting of
Speaker 3: the raid. I mean, maybe there's more that you want
Speaker 3: to go into before we get into that, but it
Speaker 3: sounds like we're finally through that fateful moment. Obviously, this
Speaker 3: is a fifty one day standoff, but it started off
Speaker 3: with an initial raid, if I recall correctly, I believe,
Speaker 3: and maybe maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is the final
Speaker 3: fateful No, I'm pretty sure I'm correct. This is the
Speaker 3: the The initial rate is where they had the dog
Speaker 3: killer crew that jumped out that started off the party
Speaker 3: with that. The beginning of the party was started with
Speaker 3: popping off some dogs that were in a cage that
Speaker 3: we're doing nothing in Iran. Yeah, and then I think
Speaker 3: when they shot the dogs, that's also what then spooked
Speaker 3: off the other Feds to start shooting so it's FEDS
Speaker 3: shooting Feds allegedly, and so that's theoretically so theoretically that
Speaker 3: could be what started the whole firefight, is the FED
Speaker 3: shooting the dogs and they were so fucking stupid that
Speaker 3: when they shot the dogs, they scared themselves and started shooting.
Speaker 3: So yeah, but with the level of special forces there,
Speaker 3: there was a military presence at Waco that people are
Speaker 3: unaware of. CIA whistleblower acknowledged the FATUCI. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Man, hey, six years later it was revealed the Delta
Speaker 1: Force was there and that this was potentially they were
Speaker 1: Essentially they were training in how to deploy sophisticated techniques
Speaker 1: and tactics on a domestic population in a compound in
Speaker 1: the US, just saying, you know, when you're kind of
Speaker 1: practicing over in Guyana as well and figuring out how
Speaker 1: you can. Yeah, I mean it really it becomes like some.
Speaker 3: Methods and procedures tried and true, sir, and how do
Speaker 3: you try them? You get to try them. So here
Speaker 3: you go, here's a perfect, perfect opportunity to kind of
Speaker 3: a kind of a tryout methods, which they did, which
Speaker 3: obviously we haven't laid out the siege, but obviously you know,
Speaker 3: getting a little of ourselves there. We will get into
Speaker 3: the different myriad of different methods that used to fuck
Speaker 3: with these people in all different ways.
Speaker 1: So but yeah, it resembles Project Jedi, you know, the
Speaker 1: Phoenix tactics. It's like absolutely, it's crazy. But yeah, we'll
Speaker 1: get into its psychological warfare. I mean, that's what they
Speaker 1: were doing to these people and children.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so the no Knock grade, right, it had
Speaker 1: been and obviously remember they had even gone as far
Speaker 1: as conducting these National Guard over flights of thermal images
Speaker 1: that showed a supposed hotspot that the implication was indicating
Speaker 1: a methamphetamine laboratory. So this is how they get the
Speaker 1: military equipment, the military assets for the raid. That was
Speaker 1: how they obtained it. And so this no Knock raid
Speaker 1: had been planned from Monday, March first, but they were
Speaker 1: forced to move it up by a day in response
Speaker 1: to a series of articles the ATF had reportedly tried
Speaker 1: to prevent from being published in the Waco Tribune Herald
Speaker 1: called the Sinful Messiah as we just actually witnessed in
Speaker 1: those first couple of minutes of what's the name of
Speaker 1: that damn thing rules of engagement. Yeah, So the ATF
Speaker 1: raid of the Branch Davidian compound dubbed code name Showtime
Speaker 1: would officially begin on a gray, wet Sunday morning, February
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three. So that is the day
Speaker 1: that those those the hostage negotiation tapes. Apparently we're covering
Speaker 1: with that child. So this is when the morning of
Speaker 1: the twenty eighth of February, civilian trucks with black cattle
Speaker 1: trailers filled with over seventy five agents brandishing fully automatic
Speaker 1: weapons outfitted in swat style tactical gear arrived at Mount
Speaker 1: Carmel ready for war, and the victims inside the house
Speaker 1: described them as men in black, unidentifiable when coming towards you.
Speaker 1: So again, this is the strategic reality of having your
Speaker 1: FBI or ATF on the back where nobody knows who
Speaker 1: you are. You're just mercenaries for as far as they know.
Speaker 1: I mean, imagine what that looks like. Now, the backup
Speaker 1: real quick, and now we're at the moment of the raid.
Speaker 3: Now, I guess this would be kind of a good
Speaker 3: time to look back and see were there anyways this
Speaker 3: could be avoided? Now is exactly I mean, there was
Speaker 3: this guy was was this guy that was this guy
Speaker 3: hold up in his compound and you know, uncompletely unable
Speaker 3: to be you know, arrested like a normal person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's what they would have you believe. He's
Speaker 1: he's this uh, this shut in, this hermit, that's some
Speaker 1: cult psychopathic leader and and abusing children. Statistically, that that
Speaker 1: is basically kind of what they had to h dangle
Speaker 1: and into the public perception there for the you know,
Speaker 1: the stay at home moms eating bond bonds all pissed
Speaker 1: off because they you know, it was interrupting their their
Speaker 1: whatever TV show they were watching at the time. But anyway,
Speaker 1: so the point being that victims inside the house right then,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but what you're you're mentioning as well, it
Speaker 1: is important that we that we of course covered that
Speaker 1: aspect of of kind of you know, not only the
Speaker 1: justifications and how the raid was conducted, but also you know,
Speaker 1: the group of undercover agents posing as college students who
Speaker 1: moved into the house across the street from the Branch
Speaker 1: Davidian compound with their rental cars giving them away. The
Speaker 1: agents hosted a party to deflect suspicion, but it had
Speaker 1: the opposite effect. Some of the Branch Davidians showed up
Speaker 1: to the party and mingled with the group and reported
Speaker 1: back to David Koresh that these were federal agents. For sure.
Speaker 1: It's like, that's the funniest thing ever man and uh
Speaker 1: so Waco David Koresh The Branch Davidians and a Legacy
Speaker 1: of Rage published by Jeff Gwynn Right author, He claims
Speaker 1: that basically another agent, Robert Rodriguez, which is you know,
Speaker 1: really the most the most famous one out of all
Speaker 1: of these uh these names, posed as a potential follower
Speaker 1: to gain access to the group, and Koresh quickly pegged
Speaker 1: him as a fed, but kept inviting him to Bible
Speaker 1: study anyway. After all, as he reminded his followers, Jesus
Speaker 1: had preached to a Roman centurion the day before the
Speaker 1: Sunday morning raid. Treasury Department officials in Washington attempted to
Speaker 1: call it off, concerned that it relied on unnecessary force.
Speaker 1: Why couldn't Koresh be arrested when he was away from
Speaker 1: the compound. But a plan, once in motion, has a
Speaker 1: certain momentum, and the ATF, which had a Congressional budget
Speaker 1: hearing approaching, was in need of a splashy successful operation
Speaker 1: one atf agent was so confident that the mission would
Speaker 1: be over in a few hours that he even booked
Speaker 1: at tea time in Houston for Sunday afternoon. On the
Speaker 1: morning of February twenty eighth, ninety three, Rodriguez, still ostensibly undercover,
Speaker 1: listened as Koresh was tipped off that the raid was imminent.
Speaker 1: Rodriguez rushed to report the news to his superiors, sure
Speaker 1: that they would abort the mission since the plans obviously
Speaker 1: relied on maintaining the element of surprise, But instead the
Speaker 1: raid proceeded obviously disastrously. And so I you know, it
Speaker 1: goes without.
Speaker 3: Real quick to back up that what I was driving
Speaker 3: at he if I recall correctly, there's a claim that
Speaker 3: he supposedly went so far as the changing his changing
Speaker 3: his route to to kind of give them an opportunity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm getting there. I'm getting there, Okay, Okay, So basically,
Speaker 1: if the FEDS wanted to arrest David Koresh, obviously the
Speaker 1: only person listed on the search and arrest warrants, they had,
Speaker 1: what the fuck? I just had something flying to my ear. No,
Speaker 1: but seriously, it's anyway, so obviously This was a manipulatively
Speaker 1: obtained search and arrest warrant, and they had every opportunity
Speaker 1: in the world to arrest him and apprehend him. And
Speaker 1: so he had even patterned his jogging routine, as you said,
Speaker 1: to conveniently pass in front of their undercover house and
Speaker 1: an effort to provide them with exactly that opportunity. And
Speaker 1: so all of the official claims of being unable to
Speaker 1: apprehend him away from the property are patently absurd. There
Speaker 1: was even an official investigative report issued by the Department
Speaker 1: of the Treasury. This stated David Koresh and two undercover agents,
Speaker 1: including Robert Rodriguez, which, by the way, Robert Rodriguez is
Speaker 1: the name of that film director that right did the
Speaker 1: did did the what was the name the Grindhouse series
Speaker 1: with movies with Tarantino. Uh, but anyway, very good movies.
Speaker 1: But so I always like made that strange connection whenever
Speaker 1: I was covering this, just because I knew from Dust
Speaker 1: till Dawn and should way you know, before where I
Speaker 1: was like getting into the details of Waco. I always
Speaker 1: thought that was funny. But it doesn't matter so anyway,
Speaker 1: So the point of here is obviously that David Koresh,
Speaker 1: and these two undercover agents, including Rodriguez, went about a
Speaker 1: mile away off property and all of them shot firearms together. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, the ultimate inevitable question clearly is why didn't
Speaker 1: they arrest him? Then, undercover agent Robert Rodriguez had been
Speaker 1: in the house at Mount Carmel on many occasions and
Speaker 1: said that he saw no signs of illegal activity and
Speaker 1: that they should call the raid off. So all of
Speaker 1: that playing into the really just I mean the I mean,
Speaker 1: really the suspect legality in the first place, of right
Speaker 1: of a lot of these claims, and so the Treasury
Speaker 1: report would document and confirm that. On the morning of
Speaker 1: the twenty eighth, by eight am, the day of the raid,
Speaker 1: agent Rodriguez went to the compound one final time for
Speaker 1: the most critical phase of his undercover assignment, assessing whether
Speaker 1: the Herald Tribune series of articles had incited Koresh and
Speaker 1: his followers right to take up arms, Which is why
Speaker 1: they had to move up the raid for a day,
Speaker 1: because the ATF was trying to keep that publication from
Speaker 1: actually going through with this obvious what would inevitably tip
Speaker 1: off the group if they were to read it, And
Speaker 1: so the the apparently that was the implication was that
Speaker 1: it had potentially incited Koresh and his followers to take
Speaker 1: up arms to increase their security measures. And so Koresh
Speaker 1: greeted the undercover agent, but he invited him in to
Speaker 1: join the Bible study session with two of his followers,
Speaker 1: and there were obviously no signs at that moment of
Speaker 1: any unusual activity, which was strange obviously Leader Rodriguez himself
Speaker 1: because he was instantly aware of what was attempting to
Speaker 1: be conducted that day, which was not It was basically unplanned.
Speaker 1: So while Koresh and Rodriguez were engaged in this Bible session,
Speaker 1: there was a member of the group, Perry Jones, who
Speaker 1: had just been warned by his son, who was a
Speaker 1: local letter carrier, that had just been accidentally tipped off
Speaker 1: by a lost cameraman working for a news station wearing
Speaker 1: a KWTX jacket looking for the compound, apparently not knowing
Speaker 1: he was affiliated with the group. The cameraman asked for
Speaker 1: directions and indicated that some type of law enforcement action
Speaker 1: was about to take place at the compound, likely to
Speaker 1: be a raid of some type, and that there might
Speaker 1: be shooting. Perry Jones devised a fake phone call pretext
Speaker 1: to draw David away from Agent Rodriguez so he could
Speaker 1: warn him of what he had just learned from his son,
Speaker 1: and according to the report, upon Koresh's return, Rodriguez could
Speaker 1: see that he was extremely agitated, and although he tried
Speaker 1: to resume the Bible session, he could not talk and
Speaker 1: had trouble holding his bible. Rodriguez grabbed the Bible from
Speaker 1: Koresh and asked him what was wrong. Rodriguez recalls that
Speaker 1: Koresh said something about the Kingdom of God and proclaimed,
Speaker 1: neither the ATF nor the National Guard will ever get me.
Speaker 1: They get me once, they get me once, and they'll
Speaker 1: never get me again. Koresh then, which is a strange
Speaker 1: thing to say in the first place. And Koresh then
Speaker 1: walked to the window and looked out, saying, they're coming, Robert.
Speaker 1: The time has come. He turned looking at Robert and
Speaker 1: repeated the exact same statement, They're coming Robert, and Rodriguez,
Speaker 1: being shocked, of course, Koresh repeatedly looked out the window
Speaker 1: and repeated this statement. Rodriguez wondered whether the raid was beginning,
Speaker 1: even though he was still in the compound, so he's
Speaker 1: looking for an excuse to leave at this point, and uh,
Speaker 1: and he tells Koresh he had to meet someone for breakfast,
Speaker 1: but Koresh didn't even respond to this, and and apparently
Speaker 1: another male member entered the room, effectively, if not intentionally,
Speaker 1: coming between them as far as Rodriguez in the door.
Speaker 1: And so he's he's fearing being trapped in the compound, contemplating.
Speaker 3: Literally arrested him right there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, and it is, it really is. And
Speaker 1: so but as he's claiming, you know, he's he's basically,
Speaker 1: you know, solo in this operation at this point, kind
Speaker 1: of left out hanging to dry in a sort of way.
Speaker 1: And so he's kind of panicking apparently, and uh, he's
Speaker 1: like contemplating jumping through this window of the compound because
Speaker 1: he didn't want to be trapped and repeated that man,
Speaker 1: you know, all it.
Speaker 3: Would take is one little moment of hero heroism right there,
Speaker 3: and all he would have to do with him and say, hey,
Speaker 3: let me arrestue, let me take you out, and it
Speaker 3: would have fucked up all of their plans and like
Speaker 3: that that's all he had to do, and then we
Speaker 3: have avoided all of this. So I know truly, just
Speaker 3: as I was just thinking about that, as you're talking about,
Speaker 3: like literally all he had to do is he was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god. Obviously he's like, oh my god, it's awful.
Speaker 3: Was like, okay, we'll grow a fucking pair of balls.
Speaker 3: Tell him he obviously knows, be like, hey, we can
Speaker 3: avoid all of this if you want to come with
Speaker 3: me right now and we can take you under it.
Speaker 1: Instead, he's like, uh, I gotta go get get breakfast.
Speaker 1: Like what what are you doing? Man? Yeah? Fuck? Your
Speaker 1: whole goal here was to go and see I guess
Speaker 1: the implication is that he was trying to see did
Speaker 1: he have prior knowledge, yes, prior knowledge, Yeah, he obviously does. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so what the fuck are you doing now? You know?
Speaker 1: And and and so then you know. Koresh apparently approaches
Speaker 1: him after he says again repeating that he's leaving for
Speaker 1: a breakfast appointment.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: He approaches him in a manner that Rode he has
Speaker 1: believed highly uncharacteristic, and he shakes Rodriguez's hand and says
Speaker 1: good luck, Robert, and then he leaves the compound, gets
Speaker 1: into his truck and drives to the undercover house. So
Speaker 1: it doesn't really sound like why you're freaking out and
Speaker 1: panicking so much? And then he just walks out, gets
Speaker 1: into his truck, drives back across the street into the
Speaker 1: undercover house. I mean, I don't know, it just sounds
Speaker 1: strange from the you know, just at face value, like
Speaker 1: what what are we talking about here? It's hard to
Speaker 1: believe that that's how it really went, but it's possible.
Speaker 1: Agents in the undercover house they claim that when Rodriguez returned,
Speaker 1: he's visibly upset, and he called Charles Sarabin, the overall
Speaker 1: tactical coordinator for the raid, who's at the command post
Speaker 1: at the time, and he tells us spell real quick,
Speaker 1: Charles Sarabin. I believe it's essay r A B y N.
Speaker 1: Believe that's how it's pronounced. Yeah, which, by the way,
Speaker 1: he's uh, he's the site commander at Ruby Ridge.
Speaker 3: I believe, is it Sarah Fim?
Speaker 1: I believe it's uh, let's see, because I'm.
Speaker 3: Pretty sure if I recall correctly, that there was I
Speaker 3: believe that was Kyle Serafin's dad. If I recall correctly, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was the Kyle Seraphim, one of the the whistle
Speaker 3: blowers the FBI whistleblowers, the unsuspendables, or whatever the hell
Speaker 3: they call themselves, the group of FBI guys that left
Speaker 3: around that time. I believe it's that's the that's correct,
Speaker 3: Charles Seraphim or Sarah Finn maybe Sarah Finn. I think
Speaker 3: I believe if I call correctly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, No, I think I think they're different because
Speaker 1: Charles Sarah Bin.
Speaker 3: I swear, I swear I heard somebody say somewhere, maybe
Speaker 3: they got the names mixed up to where I saw
Speaker 3: somebody say somewhere his dad was involved with Waco in
Speaker 3: some way, in like a good way, like he was
Speaker 3: he actually was trying to.
Speaker 1: Do good things or something.
Speaker 3: I forget. I don't know. I just hear kept hearing
Speaker 3: you say that. I'm like, this sounds so familiar. Maybe
Speaker 3: you're saying it wrong, but all right, sorry, my bad,
Speaker 3: go on, No, it is it is.
Speaker 1: It's just you know, this guy, he himself provides kind
Speaker 1: of a smoking gun to the pat Con connection here
Speaker 1: as well, because you have him met Charles Sarabin, the
Speaker 1: overall tactical coordinator for the raid at the command post,
Speaker 1: you know, being told by Rodriguez that Koresh was upset
Speaker 1: that Koresh said had said ATF and the National Guard
Speaker 1: were coming, and that as Rodriguez left Koresh he was
Speaker 1: shaking and reading the Bible. So obviously he seemed to
Speaker 1: be and yeah, in a very heightened state emotionally. Obviously,
Speaker 1: if he's shaking, right, if that's the actual claim. So
Speaker 1: Sarabin asked Rodriguez a series of questions from a prepared
Speaker 1: list provided by the tactical planners. Did you see any weapons?
Speaker 1: Was there a call to arms? Did you see them
Speaker 1: make any preparations? Robert responded in the negative to every question,
Speaker 1: and then Sarabin asked what the people in the compound
Speaker 1: were doing when Rodriguez left. He answered that they were praying. Next,
Speaker 1: Sarabin called Kavanaugh, who reported that there was no observable
Speaker 1: activity in the compound. Often obviously he's a hostage negotiator
Speaker 1: at the time, special agent in the command post witnessed
Speaker 1: Sarabin's part of the conversation with Rodriguez. Now, after Sarabin
Speaker 1: had hung up the phone, the agent stopped him asked
Speaker 1: what Rodriguez had said. Sarabin responded that he had been
Speaker 1: with Koresh when Koresh was called from the room to
Speaker 1: take an emergency telephone call. When he returned to the room,
Speaker 1: he said that ATF the National Guard were in Waco
Speaker 1: and were on their way. Sarabin also stated that Rodriguez
Speaker 1: reported Koresh was nervous drop the Bible from which he
Speaker 1: was reading, and then the agent asked Sarabin, what are
Speaker 1: you going to do? He responds that Rodriguez had seen
Speaker 1: no firearms and that Koresh was reading the Bible. When
Speaker 1: Rodriguez left, Sarrebin said he thought they could still execute
Speaker 1: the plan if they moved quickly. He then arrives at
Speaker 1: the staging area at nine ten am. Witnesses report that
Speaker 1: he was excited and obviously in a hurry. Agents in
Speaker 1: the parking lot when Sarabin arrived recalled that he ran
Speaker 1: to them and told them that they had to hurry,
Speaker 1: making statements such as get ready to go. They know
Speaker 1: we are coming, and they know ATF and the National
Speaker 1: Guard are coming. We're going to hit them now. So
Speaker 1: it's just I mean, they had full prior knowledge, you know,
Speaker 1: being as far as both of the groups, right, So
Speaker 1: you have each side of this conflict about to play
Speaker 1: out perfectly, you know, being just again prior knowledge well
Speaker 1: aware of what's about to ensue and that alone, and
Speaker 1: I think, uh, in no way obviously when when you
Speaker 1: you realize that kind of the rules of engagement at
Speaker 1: the time were all hinging on the fact that there
Speaker 1: was no uh you know, prior knowledge.
Speaker 3: I will say this, this did lead to one of
Speaker 3: the best civilian versus military KD ratios like out there.
Speaker 3: I'll give them that. It was what the six of four.
Speaker 3: I mean, they were on the losing side there, but
Speaker 3: like you know, you what, they lost six, then the
Speaker 3: FEDS lost four. You don't see that sort of odds usually, right,
Speaker 3: which I mean that probably did play a little bit
Speaker 3: into maybe why these people are all dead.
Speaker 1: Uh because you think so, because it would be just
Speaker 1: like obviously retaliatory in nature, you would want to gay
Speaker 1: they got one of ours. You know, it's like our
Speaker 1: blood was spilled. Now you know, we got skin in
Speaker 1: the game type of ruby ruby Ridge psychology in a way.
Speaker 1: But I'm beginning to think there's a layered operation playing out.
Speaker 1: Whether that was the case almost feels like it doesn't
Speaker 1: even matter at the point. I mean, obviously it would
Speaker 1: escalate tensions and you know, make ultimately everything, it would
Speaker 1: just escalate and make it inevitably worse obviously, but still understanding,
Speaker 1: you know, first of all, like what I didn't realize
Speaker 1: Three of Bill Clinton's bodyguards during his nineteen ninety two
Speaker 1: election campaign were engaged in the Waco operation as officers
Speaker 1: of the Bureau of Alcoholics back on firearms. Now, not
Speaker 1: only that, out of the four BATF officers who were
Speaker 1: killed in the initial raid on malt Carmel on February
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, ninety three, three of them were the very
Speaker 1: same former Clinton bodyguards. Like that alone is holy shit,
Speaker 1: what is going on here? You know? And yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then also just the press opportunity. Why why was
Speaker 1: was there so much? It feels like it was just
Speaker 1: at the very least exploited, you know, for public perception.
Speaker 1: And but I think it's I think it's more statistic
Speaker 1: than that. I think there's an additional layer that you know,
Speaker 1: we haven't yet. Uh now, I'm I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: beginning to expose myself to that potential reality. But anyway,
Speaker 1: I don't want to get far off the point. So
Speaker 1: but I will say that aside, is that not extraordinary?
Speaker 1: Like that's that's absolutely crazy? Yeah, I don't even know
Speaker 1: what to make of that, Like, uh huh. I mean
Speaker 1: we've seen videos of the like the the one guy
Speaker 1: got shot in the window, so I don't know if
Speaker 1: he died, to be fair, so it's like we know
Speaker 1: some of it is authentic, but like obviously for that thesis,
Speaker 1: it's like, what the hell happened where they're in like
Speaker 1: intentional friendly fire of some sort going on?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I can only I can only speculate,
Speaker 3: Like what the hell do you do with that? I mean, obviously,
Speaker 3: I guess it can just be a coincidence. That's one
Speaker 3: hell of a fucking coincidence.
Speaker 1: What I'm saying, what what? What will after we finish
Speaker 1: here with with really you know, the crux of of
Speaker 1: the siege and what really took place with the event
Speaker 1: and the tragic outcome, we can get into one additional
Speaker 1: wrinkle there before we we finish up, and and it
Speaker 1: will potentially allude to a plausible alternative theory that that
Speaker 1: that really does parallel and mirror that of Jonestown as
Speaker 1: far as the clean up crew. The clean up crew,
Speaker 1: it's very interesting to to to see what might have
Speaker 1: been and then realize that this could have been some
Speaker 1: sort of manufactured press opportunity for you know, to to
Speaker 1: achieve layered objectives. So anyway, we'll get into this, but
Speaker 1: that's just score.
Speaker 3: Earth is something that's pretty easy to uh manipulate the
Speaker 3: narrative on later. I mean, when all you have, all
Speaker 3: the evidence.
Speaker 1: Is yeah, and and there are always going to be
Speaker 1: extraordinary conspiracies that that you know, inevitably kind of form
Speaker 1: around these most most of the scandalous events, and at
Speaker 1: least especially something that's so consequential as Waco, and and
Speaker 1: you know what it represents, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: And just the dynamic, the power dynamic. Okay, so we're
Speaker 3: we're at Waco right now, or not at Waco. We're
Speaker 3: at the the initial rate. It's already we're basically already
Speaker 3: it popped off. H Like I said, we got we
Speaker 3: got four four of theirs dead six of hours. I
Speaker 3: say hours, but you know what I mean. Uh, But
Speaker 3: so so we're we're now we're dealing with the aftermath.
Speaker 3: Now we're we're you know now, tensions are slowly settling down.
Speaker 3: I think you know, if you listen to the you know,
Speaker 3: your episode where you play the little audio, you can
Speaker 3: you know they still got firing going on that point,
Speaker 3: but you know, they start coorning with each other say hey,
Speaker 3: you know, let's chill it out. So that's where we're at. Now,
Speaker 3: we're at the we're at a standoff. So where we're
Speaker 3: at with the relevant stuff in the in the standoff.
Speaker 3: I know, usually standoff does get kind of hand waved over,
Speaker 3: but there are definitely things to you know, to pick
Speaker 3: at through there too, to highlight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well I should mention the dog team as well.
Speaker 1: And then and then yeah, I'll get directly into the
Speaker 1: standoff and the siege and and the you know, the
Speaker 1: tactics that were playing out as well, which we can
Speaker 1: we can. You know, I won't mean I basically straight
Speaker 1: upset it earlier, but you can say it again. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I won't linger too long on the on the excessive details.
Speaker 1: But still you have Charles Sarabin and Philip Chognak Chosnuki,
Speaker 1: the two federal agents in charge of leading the initial
Speaker 1: raid who later would be fired for lying to their
Speaker 1: superiors and investigators about what undercover agent Rodriguez had reported,
Speaker 1: uh apparently corroborated by sixty one different witnesses as well.
Speaker 1: So they took the fall. Officials during the Waco investigation
Speaker 1: would even suggest on the record that the implication of
Speaker 1: their findings is that in lying to investigators, mister Sarabin
Speaker 1: and mister Chozhnuki could be guilty of felony offenses. Not
Speaker 1: only did they lie about what was reported, they also
Speaker 1: attempted to shift blame to mister Rodriguez, even altering documentary evidence.
Speaker 1: Later on, so Robert Rodriguez filed lawsuits against his supervisors
Speaker 1: and the BATF and ninety five, claiming that they had
Speaker 1: defamed him and conspired to make him a scapegoat, eventually
Speaker 1: settling out of court where he would receive over two
Speaker 1: million dollars in damages. None of the real victims obviously
Speaker 1: received any damages as far as any of financial damages
Speaker 1: but compensation, but more than seventy five agents, obviously nine
Speaker 1: to forty five am the day of the raid rolled
Speaker 1: up to Mount Carmel, jumping out two cattle cars, shouting
Speaker 1: showtime ATF would never attempt to serve the search warrant, obviously,
Speaker 1: the initial plan being one group of agents will break
Speaker 1: through the front door while another group took ladders and
Speaker 1: smashed through the windows on the second and floor where
Speaker 1: the women and children were. Multiple agents would later say
Speaker 1: that the Fed shot first would be Ridge all over
Speaker 1: again six months later, although that would be at the
Speaker 1: center of much controversy due to the official claims being
Speaker 1: that the FEDS had shown restraint after being attacked by
Speaker 1: radical cult members led by a madman. One of the agents,
Speaker 1: while testifying in the San Antonio trial, would even back
Speaker 1: up the claim made by the Davidians about a separate
Speaker 1: group of ATF called the Dog Team, which you had
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, which obviously in the first few moments of
Speaker 1: the operation were the ones responsible for the initial shots fired.
Speaker 1: They had gone up to the Davidians fully enclosed dog
Speaker 1: kennel near the front door of the property with five
Speaker 1: Alaskan malamuse fawn and her four pups, and their job
Speaker 1: was to shoot them in cold blood. Claims were made
Speaker 1: that agents then mistook the shots fired from the Dog
Speaker 1: Team shots coming from the Davidians, and so they all
Speaker 1: opened fire on the house, sparking over a two hour
Speaker 1: long fire fight in the Texas Prairie. Could you imagine,
Speaker 1: It's like, it's literally like the original Predator when they
Speaker 1: first don't they have no idea. What that what they're
Speaker 1: shooting at. But they all empty, every single last round
Speaker 1: into fucking thin air. That's like what it sounds like happened.
Speaker 1: So David Koresh had been shot in the hand, in
Speaker 1: the stomach when the first shots had been fired. He's wounded.
Speaker 1: Now within a minute, you have the attorney Wayne Martin,
Speaker 1: member of the group, Harvard law graduate, African American, called
Speaker 1: nine one one, pleading for a ceasefire, with audio tapes
Speaker 1: recording him saying, here they come again, and that's them shooting.
Speaker 1: That's not us. The five Branch Davidians killed in the
Speaker 1: initial raid the morning of the twenty eighth, where Winston Blake,
Speaker 1: Peter Grant, Peter Hipsman, Perry Jones, and Jadon Wendell. Their
Speaker 1: bodies were buried on the grounds. Nearly six hours after
Speaker 1: the eleven thirty am c's fire, Michael Schroeder, whose wife
Speaker 1: was inside the compound, was shot dead by ATF agents
Speaker 1: who alleged his he fired a pistol at agents as
Speaker 1: he attempted to re enter the compound. The hat he
Speaker 1: was wearing at the time that he was shot. This
Speaker 1: sounds like a straight up you know, murder. I mean honestly,
Speaker 1: and because this guy whose wife was inside the compound.
Speaker 1: I mean imagine that man, you know, you come home,
Speaker 1: You're like, what the fuck? You know you? I got
Speaker 1: to get home, Like people all over town have been
Speaker 1: telling me that this shit's popping off. You'd have to
Speaker 1: imagine that was probably what happened. He's getting calls from everywhere.
Speaker 1: He ends up Michael Schroeder, this individual six hours after
Speaker 1: the ceasefire, so he has to know his wife's in
Speaker 1: the damn compound shot dead by ATF agents. This man,
Speaker 1: who alleged he fired a pistol at agents says he
Speaker 1: attempted to render the compound. The hat he was wearing
Speaker 1: at the time he was shot would also mysteriously go
Speaker 1: missing from the evidence. How convenient, Yeah, so Professor Emeritus
Speaker 1: of Law on Psychiatry at Harvard Law School, Alan Stone.
Speaker 1: He stated in his report that the Branch Davidians did
Speaker 1: not ambush the ATF, that they did not maximize the
Speaker 1: kill of ATF agents. Four ATF agents were killed during
Speaker 1: the raid and over twenty had sustained injuries. That is
Speaker 1: a hell of a firefight. The ATF would continue attacking
Speaker 1: the house until they ran out of ammunition, So it
Speaker 1: is exactly like what I was considered what I thought
Speaker 1: it sounded like. Right after the ATF withdrew, they attempted
Speaker 1: to establish contact with Koresh and others inside the house.
Speaker 1: As a result of the deaths of federal agents, the
Speaker 1: FBI quickly took over the operation, naming Jeff Jamar as
Speaker 1: site commander, who had most recently been the head of
Speaker 1: the San Antonio Field Office. The FBI's Blue and Gold
Speaker 1: Hostage Rescue Tactical teams had been mobilized to the site.
Speaker 1: To address your team commander Richard Rodgers. He had been
Speaker 1: criticized for his actions at Ruby Ridge. That is the
Speaker 1: site commander who was criticized from Ruby Ridge around six
Speaker 1: months prior to Waco. He would be the one in
Speaker 1: charge of the tactical teams, later receiving more criticism for
Speaker 1: overriding the site commander at Waco in the same exact
Speaker 1: way he did at Ruby Ridge. So that's Richard Rogers.
Speaker 1: He had to have been at least an asset of
Speaker 1: pat Con if not a direct operative. But he's calling
Speaker 1: to resolve the situation tactically, which of course causes friction
Speaker 1: with the FBI. Negotiators attempting to make progress in good
Speaker 1: faith with the group. And according to the final Justice
Speaker 1: Department report, you have twenty five FBI negotiators heavily criticized
Speaker 1: as far as they heavily criticized the tactical commanders for
Speaker 1: undercutting their botiations. So in no way were they able
Speaker 1: to act in good faith. They couldn't even you know,
Speaker 1: they couldn't trust that anything that they would tell the
Speaker 1: members of the group would end up being legitimately honest.
Speaker 1: So at a certain point they were just like, what
Speaker 1: the fuck do we even do? I mean, this is
Speaker 1: obviously not going to end well, that is not the
Speaker 1: goal here. And so David initially tries to give phone
Speaker 1: interviews with local news media. What a what a brilliant tactic.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously you would have to do that if
Speaker 1: you want to get out in front of this trying.
Speaker 1: Hey man, we might all be sacrificed out here, like
Speaker 1: we need to do. Get get out in front of this,
Speaker 1: do something about the public perception and and but of course,
Speaker 1: guess what happens. The FBI quickly cut the phone lines
Speaker 1: and shut off all water and power to the house.
Speaker 1: That's a siege man, I mean, yeah.
Speaker 3: There was a famous sign that I forget what was
Speaker 3: like a bigger it was a phone's cad. Well on
Speaker 3: speaks you're something like it's it's just trying to get
Speaker 3: out work. Like they're not able to talk. They're literally stuck.
Speaker 3: There's no lines of communications out of that point. They're
Speaker 3: they're literally trying to talk to the world via signs
Speaker 3: like hey.
Speaker 2: We're all.
Speaker 1: He rolls up. He's like, what what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Just like Ruby Ridge, Why don't you just try and
Speaker 1: talk to them? Man, that's all he said. He's like,
Speaker 1: they're good people, That's what he's climbing. And so apparently
Speaker 1: as as the water and power and phone lines are
Speaker 1: all being cut off, they had just negotiated a shipment
Speaker 1: of milk for the children still in the house when
Speaker 1: they shut off this power, subsequently causing that very same
Speaker 1: milk to spoil. And so those were the very mind
Speaker 1: games that they were, you know, operating with and and
Speaker 1: and you know, exploiting and leveraging to their benefit, serving
Speaker 1: to the negotiator's point as far as undercutting their ability
Speaker 1: to act in good faith. So negotiators, they managed to
Speaker 1: facilitate the release of up to nineteen children along with
Speaker 1: a number of elderly women who would immediately be separated
Speaker 1: from the children, which that alone, they're charged with conspiracy
Speaker 1: to murder government agents.
Speaker 3: It's insane.
Speaker 1: And then they're placed into five point chains and jumpsuits.
Speaker 3: And then use to fuck with the people in there,
Speaker 3: and then and then they use those same people that
Speaker 3: they just imprisoned to fuck with them. Because I remember
Speaker 3: when I when I've dug into this, and I for
Speaker 3: those arount aware, I believe, I believe Scott Horne is
Speaker 3: like a huge series like somewhere in like the realm
Speaker 3: of like twenty Hours or something. But yeah, they were
Speaker 3: like they were like the big thing is these people
Speaker 3: could would like when they were trying to negotiate like
Speaker 3: getting people out, it was like the idea of like
Speaker 3: for one that's like to some extent like sort of
Speaker 3: this is our leverage. These people here. Also they don't
Speaker 3: want to go with you because they're literally terrified of
Speaker 3: you because they just just came in here and murdered
Speaker 3: their family and friends. So it's just like and then
Speaker 3: the idea that and when you finally convince them to
Speaker 3: let some of them go, that you then immediately you know,
Speaker 3: then arrest them and then use them to emotion further
Speaker 3: emotionally manipulate the rest of them. It's just it's a
Speaker 3: just what do you expect to I mean, once again
Speaker 3: to the what do you expect to happen? It's like, well,
Speaker 3: kind of what ended up happening, and this obviously this
Speaker 3: ends up being like a testing ground for methods and procedures,
Speaker 3: which it does seem like. I mean, that reminds me
Speaker 3: of things like over in Gaza when you hear about
Speaker 3: the crazy you know, murder drones over there and stuff,
Speaker 3: and it's like they're trying out same thing with Ukraine,
Speaker 3: where it's like when anytime there's a a a theater
Speaker 3: where you know there's gonna be death and destruction, it's like,
Speaker 3: oh cool, time to try out new toys, we can
Speaker 3: do kind of whatever here. And that kind of feels
Speaker 3: like sort of almost what's going on with Waco. I mean,
Speaker 3: obviously in the lead up to that, now that's the now,
Speaker 3: that's the time for them to Oh cool, we get
Speaker 3: to try out all of our all of our interrogation
Speaker 3: methods and or not even interrogation methods are are I
Speaker 3: don't even know what just mind fucking methods and then
Speaker 3: you know, then once it actually kicks off, then oh cool,
Speaker 3: Now we can try all our fun killing methods because
Speaker 3: obviously we'll get it, we'll get to that. But that's
Speaker 3: when it looks like they were trying to kill people
Speaker 3: who were trying to get away so as they were
Speaker 3: burning to death.
Speaker 1: So but anyways, going talking similar torture techniques used on
Speaker 1: prisoners at Guantanamo Abu Greb, I mean, honestly like they
Speaker 1: are recycled tactics that were later deployed, these techniques right
Speaker 1: by the FBI siege of the Branch Davidians. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're talking FBI agents blasting the Branch Davidians all night
Speaker 1: with obnoxious sounds, screaming rabbits, crying seagulls, dentist drills, Nancy
Speaker 1: Sinatra's these boots are made for walking. I found that interesting,
Speaker 1: you know it's it's by the way, did you know
Speaker 1: that the US military employed the same technique on Iraqi
Speaker 1: prisoners of war using the theme song from the PBS
Speaker 1: kids series Barney and Friends.
Speaker 3: That's crazy, right, then, Steret goats. There's that one same
Speaker 3: reason that yeah, I knew there was based on.
Speaker 1: True, John Ronson was accurate as hell when he described
Speaker 1: operations Stargate. That's what he was describing. These are the
Speaker 1: mind work capabilities, and they have been employed as bizarre
Speaker 1: torture methods on on all the really in all of
Speaker 1: these different uh you know, strange theaters of war and
Speaker 1: and really domestic precedent setting operations like Awaco became. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, at this point, it's it's just like right
Speaker 1: when you when you're realizing that, hey, chill the fuck out. Sorry,
Speaker 1: my dog's freaking out. Chill out. Uh So the Feds,
Speaker 1: obviously they they put these they separate the women from
Speaker 1: the children, obviously charged them, and then put them in
Speaker 1: these five point chains and jumpsuits. And then they would
Speaker 1: then obviously proceed to force these women to stand out
Speaker 1: in front of the Davidian's home calling for them to
Speaker 1: come out. During the first week, the FBI would send
Speaker 1: a video camera into the house in order to show
Speaker 1: that there were no hostages, that people were staying inside
Speaker 1: on their own free will. So it's just like, you know,
Speaker 1: the group they recorded a videotape that included Koresh introducing
Speaker 1: his children and his wives. Write that infamous tape to
Speaker 1: the negotiators and several members obviously making statements in the video,
Speaker 1: including one by David, that led to concern that the
Speaker 1: tapes released to the media could actually potentially gain sympathy
Speaker 1: for the group and David himself, And so they no
Speaker 1: longer allowed this to take place, and two attorneys were
Speaker 1: then allowed entry into the house and upon examining the evidence,
Speaker 1: they tell the group that they would have a strong
Speaker 1: case against the government. That's what happened when the attorneys
Speaker 1: went in, and as the siege wore on. You have
Speaker 1: two opposing factions that formed within the FBI. This is
Speaker 1: according to the official line. One believed the only solution
Speaker 1: was through negotiation, the other believed the only solution was force.
Speaker 1: So aggressive techniques started to be used, like sleep deprivation,
Speaker 1: for example, or all night broadcasts of audio recordings playing
Speaker 1: the screams of rabbits being slaughtered in Buddhist chanting. FBI
Speaker 1: had obtained from the US Army nine Bradley fighting vehicles
Speaker 1: equipped with ferret rounds and cs gas grenades, and five
Speaker 1: tanks they would call combat engineer vehicles. They are I
Speaker 1: mean they're used at first to destroy the Davidian's cars,
Speaker 1: and then they destroyed the perimeter fencing and the outbuildings.
Speaker 1: They disrespected the grave of one of the dead Branch Davidians,
Speaker 1: despite protests from the FBI negotiators. The Dallas Morning News
Speaker 1: they claimed that FBI planners considered using snipers to kill
Speaker 1: David Koresh and other key Branch Davidians due to impatience
Speaker 1: around Koresh refusing to speak to them between April fifth
Speaker 1: through the thirteenth because of the passover.
Speaker 3: By the way, I did want to mention the Bradley
Speaker 3: Bradley thing, So that's super that's a point that matters.
Speaker 3: I remember, I don't remember the specific quote or anything
Speaker 3: about it, but I believe there is some claim that
Speaker 3: McVeigh was like that was one thing he pointed to
Speaker 3: that he was upset about, like the idea of that,
Speaker 3: like the the because he was he was a Bradley gunner.
Speaker 3: That's what he did. So he then he comes back
Speaker 3: home and then now he sees these Bradley's that he
Speaker 3: was over in the Gulf War using to kill Iraqis,
Speaker 3: and he's field some kind of fucked up way about.
Speaker 3: There's a lot that seemed to imply that he didn't
Speaker 3: seem too keen on the stuff going on over there
Speaker 3: after the fact, kind of a bit of a bleeding heart.
Speaker 3: And yeah, then here you go. And then now you
Speaker 3: have a Now they're using it over in Waco, and
Speaker 3: uh what what happens?
Speaker 1: Then?
Speaker 3: Yeah, then they use Waco as a president for the
Speaker 3: Oklahoma City bombing years later.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, and of course McVeigh himself showing up
Speaker 1: at Waco to pass out flyers, right, yeah, yep, and
Speaker 1: in which that itself, I mean, wow, Yeah, that's kind
Speaker 1: of stunning as far as a revelation being concerned, as
Speaker 1: far as you consider you know, yeah, exact cheap sheep
Speaker 1: dipped operative you know, playing out some sort of Gladio
Speaker 1: domestic terrorism scenario and is uh brought in at the
Speaker 1: perfect moment with a camera in a very strange time
Speaker 1: and history where that's a little bit unique, you know,
Speaker 1: I would say, but uh, I mean that it's still
Speaker 1: we'll get in. I mean, I don't know, Well, you
Speaker 1: let me know by the end of this what you
Speaker 1: want to do. But uh, there's honestly, again like this
Speaker 1: this is one of the It truly is the best
Speaker 1: example of yeah, of just.
Speaker 3: You know, I say we bring it in for a
Speaker 3: neat landing with the next like fifteen minutes. I think so,
Speaker 3: and then we if we want to comment on it
Speaker 3: more like say when it comes out later in our
Speaker 3: morning show or something. We definitely have plenty we can
Speaker 3: talk about.
Speaker 1: Later to discuss. So crazy, but yeah, yeah, yeah, but anyway,
Speaker 1: so it makes a lot more sense. But so we
Speaker 1: we have these ferret rounds, these cs gas grenades, these
Speaker 1: Bradley fighting vehicles and five tanks right combat engineered vehicles
Speaker 1: that were used to destroy the Davidian's cars, the perimeter
Speaker 1: fencing out buildings obviously completely disrespect you know this, this
Speaker 1: uh dead and buried Branch Davidian as far as you
Speaker 1: know these these But the point being here is that
Speaker 1: they were considering, just like with Ruby Ridge, actually using
Speaker 1: snipers to kill David Koresh and these key Branch Davidian
Speaker 1: members and obviously knowing Lonhoryucci's involvement here, then it actually
Speaker 1: legitimately does become a direct connection to Ruby Ridge. And
Speaker 1: as far as the the sniper team from forget the
Speaker 1: location that they had been deployed from Quantico, Yeah, Virginia.
Speaker 1: So despite David repeatedly denying any plan from mass suicide.
Speaker 1: Of course, the FBI would make public claims that the
Speaker 1: group they might commit mass suicide right like what had happened,
Speaker 1: throwing that out there, and they even use the same
Speaker 1: they reference Jonestown. Hey, you know, could just end up
Speaker 1: like Jonestown looks like he shares all the same qualities
Speaker 1: of a Jim Jones.
Speaker 3: Which was one real quick one thing we didn't mention.
Speaker 3: I do think it's worthwhile mentioning. I don't not something
Speaker 3: when you linger on, but I do think it's a matters.
Speaker 3: One of one of the biggest reasons that Koresh point
Speaker 3: to and why we had these long drawn out like
Speaker 3: fifty one, because they did get him down to, like
Speaker 3: I believe, negotiating to were like, oh, we'd all come
Speaker 3: out this.
Speaker 1: That was.
Speaker 3: It was after he translated his seventh Seal, which from
Speaker 3: my recollection of a long time looking in the Bible,
Speaker 3: I remember reading Revelation forever ago when I was a kid,
Speaker 3: and I believe I remember something in the in the
Speaker 3: Book of Revelation, there's things about seven seals or something,
Speaker 3: and so a lot of people over time to try
Speaker 3: to interpret that, and I believe he was one of them,
Speaker 3: and supposed I believe he'd interpret the other six and
Speaker 3: so he's working the last seven. And that was the
Speaker 3: whole thing of like, oh just wait a minute, I
Speaker 3: gotta finish my seal, and like I believe even the
Speaker 3: whole like apocalyptic you know, military coming in was even
Speaker 3: part of his whole seals or whatever the hell you know,
Speaker 3: you know, roll out in his head. So like with
Speaker 3: them coming in his head was like, oh, now is
Speaker 3: the time for me? With a seventh seal in his head.
Speaker 3: So obviously I don't know enough about the internal logic
Speaker 3: of the Davidians, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was expected by the exactly themselves, and it, yeah,
Speaker 1: it became really a preordained outcome. They very much believed
Speaker 1: that this would they would become martyrs, like honestly, and
Speaker 1: but they it's strange. I mean, again, there's a reason
Speaker 1: that he was actually prophesying the the legitimate timing of
Speaker 1: these things and how they would actually take place. Right
Speaker 1: where he's talking about tanks driving up and down the
Speaker 1: w Ranch Road and and you know, the helicopters buzzing
Speaker 1: Mount Carmel's facility, right and and so yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: very worthwhile and mentioning it. But he had a final
Speaker 1: statement to the world, David Koresh and he released this
Speaker 1: letter to his attorney on April fourteenth with the claim,
Speaker 1: as you said, he's writing an interpretation of the Seventh
Speaker 1: Seals of the Book of Revelation, but he promised to
Speaker 1: exit the compound upon its completion. He says, I want
Speaker 1: the people of this generation to be saved. I'm working
Speaker 1: night and day to complete my final work of the
Speaker 1: writing out of these seals. I thank my father he
Speaker 1: has finally granted me the chance to do this. It
Speaker 1: will bring new lights and hope to many, and they
Speaker 1: will not have to deal with me the person. I
Speaker 1: will demand the first manuscript of the seals be given
Speaker 1: to you. Many scholars and religious leaders will wish to
Speaker 1: have copies for examination. I will keep a copy with me.
Speaker 1: As soon as I can see that people like Jim
Speaker 1: Tabor and Phil Arnold have a copy, I will come
Speaker 1: out and then you can do your thing with this beast.
Speaker 1: Within the FBI, it was obviously a lot of frustration
Speaker 1: because more of this, as they viewed it was a
Speaker 1: stain becoming a stain on the agencies involved, and so
Speaker 1: you had some agents claiming this letter was a delayed
Speaker 1: tactic while others saw it as a breakthrough. So again
Speaker 1: you see this kind of you know, this fracturing between
Speaker 1: being willing to negotiate and wanting to come to some
Speaker 1: sort of tactical conclusion. And in the end, there was
Speaker 1: a decision made to act and the fifty one day
Speaker 1: siege would come to an end early in the morning
Speaker 1: April nineteenth, after the FBI hostage rescue team had their
Speaker 1: recommendations to mount a full tactical assault on the compound
Speaker 1: approved by newly appointed Attorney General Janet Reno. Reno, obviously
Speaker 1: usual suspect, reportedly told President Bill Clinton at the time
Speaker 1: and that the FBI hostage rescue team was tired of waiting,
Speaker 1: that the standoff was costing over a million dollars per week.
Speaker 1: She also cited false claims made by the hostage rescue
Speaker 1: team that child sexual abuse and mass suicide were imminent,
Speaker 1: although HRT would later officially deny making said claim. So
Speaker 1: then you have Jim Bouvard putting in it in perfect terms,
Speaker 1: right because he explains that shortly before the Waco showdown,
Speaker 1: you have the US government signing an International Chemical Weapons
Speaker 1: Convention treaty pledging never to use nerve agents, mustard gas,
Speaker 1: and other compounds, including tear gas, against enemy soldiers. But
Speaker 1: this treaty contained a loophole permitting governments to gas their
Speaker 1: own people. So on April nineteenth, ninety three, the FBI
Speaker 1: pumped cs gas and methyl chloride, a potentially lethal flammable combination,
Speaker 1: into the Davidian's residence for six hours, disregarding explicit warnings
Speaker 1: that CS gas should not be used indoors. They should
Speaker 1: have learned this, by the way, in the Patty Hurst
Speaker 1: the LAPD that huge firefight in Los Angeles, when when
Speaker 1: the Patty Hurst situation was playing out, what did they do?
Speaker 1: They've burned that motherfucker down. That is exactly they played
Speaker 1: out this exact same scenario. They had no reason to
Speaker 1: not effectively understand the strategic outcome of this. You know.
Speaker 1: So Stephen Schiff, he declares that, and he's a representative, right,
Speaker 1: a government representative who he claims that the deaths of
Speaker 1: dozens of men, women, and children can be directly and
Speaker 1: indirectly attributable to the use of this gas and the
Speaker 1: way it was injected by the FBI chemistry professor George
Speaker 1: Uhlig testified to Congress in ninety five that the the
Speaker 1: FBI gas attack suffocated the children early on may have
Speaker 1: converted their poorly ventilized bunker into a ventilated bunker, into
Speaker 1: an area similar to one of the gas chambers used
Speaker 1: by the Nazis at Auschwitz. So this is the result.
Speaker 1: And these abrams tanks driven by FBI agents battered the
Speaker 1: davidians homes repeatedly, loudspeakers endlessly broadcasting this is not an assault.
Speaker 1: Prior to the fire, the tanks had collapsed twenty percent
Speaker 1: of the building atop its residents, and the FBI planned
Speaker 1: to totally demolish the home. Grenade launschers, Yeah, exactly. Grenade
Speaker 1: launchers on the tanks and other armored vehicles fired almost
Speaker 1: four hundred ferret rounds of cs gas through the thin
Speaker 1: wooden walls in the windows of the building. Yet Attorney
Speaker 1: General Janet Reno later insisted, we didn't attack. We tried
Speaker 1: to exercise every restraint possible to avoid violence. The FBI
Speaker 1: speedily asserted that the Davidians ignited the fire that consumed
Speaker 1: their dwelling. The following day, Bill Clinton, deriding suggestions that
Speaker 1: Attorney General Reno should resign because some religious fanatics murdered themselves.
Speaker 1: That's what he's deriding this, this claim, right that the
Speaker 1: suggestion that she should resign. Why why should she resign
Speaker 1: because some religious fanatics murdered themselves. Six years later, independent
Speaker 1: investigators found pyrotechnic ferret rounds the FBI fired at the
Speaker 1: scene prior to the flames erupting. Attorney General Reno lashed
Speaker 1: out at the FBI for destroying her credibility, but neither
Speaker 1: she nor FBI officials suffered any consequences from the collapse
Speaker 1: of the official narrative.
Speaker 3: You know, the only people who severed consequences the victims
Speaker 3: the brand want between death and they actually deal with
Speaker 3: legal consequences.
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, mm hm, that's.
Speaker 3: A that's the deal. And two years later, for no
Speaker 3: reason whatsoever, a building in the in the the Alpha
Speaker 3: pemer Or building went down. Obviously, it's a little more
Speaker 3: complicated than just, you know, it being as simple as
Speaker 3: upset people about it. But uh, even if that were
Speaker 3: the case, it's kind of like, well, I mean, I
Speaker 3: you know, I get it, Like obviously I don't accept that,
Speaker 3: you know, one one awful act doesn't justify another awful act.
Speaker 3: But it's kind of like, hey, you know, blowback right
Speaker 3: in a way.
Speaker 1: And but here's the here's the I mean even more
Speaker 1: just of a talk about, you know, just completely destroying
Speaker 1: the credibility of that official narrative. I mean, we're talking
Speaker 1: about the use of right control agents in this indoor
Speaker 1: setting that is very much understood. What again, the consequential
Speaker 1: outcome will be This fire development analysis provided in a
Speaker 1: report to the Deputy Attorney General. It claims that three
Speaker 1: fires around noon had broken out that day almost simultaneously
Speaker 1: in different parts of the building and spread very very quickly.
Speaker 1: Only nine people escaped the building during the fire, and
Speaker 1: Branch Davidian survivors, along with other explosives experts, maintained that
Speaker 1: the fires were either accidentally or deliberately started by the assault,
Speaker 1: possibly by the types of pyrotechnic rounds the FBI lied
Speaker 1: to the public about using for six years after Waco,
Speaker 1: so the government still maintains that the fires were deliberately
Speaker 1: started by the Branch Davidians. The official line is that
Speaker 1: they didn't know CS gas was strictly manufactured to only
Speaker 1: be used as a riot control agent in an outdoor setting,
Speaker 1: although they had learned that when the LAP and the
Speaker 1: intelligence apparatus right would do a loyalty utilize this very
Speaker 1: strategy in Los Angeles with the Patty Hurst obviously that case,
Speaker 1: but with donald sink you to freeze, so it behaves
Speaker 1: very similarly to that of a grain silo, obviously in
Speaker 1: a controlled environment, creating an extreme fire hazard. So some
Speaker 1: people explain the building as being prepared by previous holes
Speaker 1: deliberately plunged through the top of the structure in order
Speaker 1: to create airflow and basically stage the house as a
Speaker 1: pot belly stove, primed and ready to go off. All
Speaker 1: they needed to do was provide the spark. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's what they did. Man. Twenty eight children died attempting
Speaker 1: to flee into the underground bunker when the tanks crushed
Speaker 1: the ceilings above them, killing some of the children due
Speaker 1: to blunt force trauma.
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 1: Others, you know, because of the and find space. Died
Speaker 1: of asphyxiation due to the CS gas, which would show
Speaker 1: on their autopsies as dying of cyanide poisoning. What do
Speaker 1: you think of jonestown Patty Hurst? They had cyanide, cyanide
Speaker 1: laced bullets or tipped bullets and Patty Hurst and then
Speaker 1: what all the all the victims bodies in Jonestown. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess none of them really had sin
Speaker 1: I poisoning, I'll be honest, right after we went into
Speaker 1: all those details of of the the metacological report there
Speaker 1: by doctor Leslie Muttu. But still there's that direct connection
Speaker 1: involving this strange cyanide connection, right, this strange overlapping threat
Speaker 1: resurfacing and all these very obvious covert agendas that have
Speaker 1: played out in front of us and then been kind
Speaker 1: of reinterpreted and and and and you know, represented and
Speaker 1: repackaged to the public in a way that would be
Speaker 1: uh just like you know, plausible and in some sort
Speaker 1: of way, you know, susceptible to their framework of how
Speaker 1: the power paradigm functions. Yeah, it's interesting. But so you
Speaker 1: have these bodies due to the cyanide poisoning after the
Speaker 1: autopsies were effectively performed, this cyanide poisoning caused their spines
Speaker 1: to forcefully contort, leaving their bodies you know, very deformed, right,
Speaker 1: And that was something that was lacking in the Jonestown bodies,
Speaker 1: which is why there was so much skepticism there regarding cyanide,
Speaker 1: So the FBI would claim that in the final moments
Speaker 1: before death, members of the group had murdered their children
Speaker 1: brutally and then committed suicide. So officials claimed they had
Speaker 1: audio recordings from surveillance devices that had covertly snuck into
Speaker 1: that they had covertly snuck into the milk cartons that
Speaker 1: spoiled in the first days of negotiations, proving that the
Speaker 1: Videans conspired to start the fires using gasoline.
Speaker 3: And if I recall correctly, I believe didn't we get
Speaker 3: those later and those end up being like you can
Speaker 3: interpret it that way, but it also can very easily
Speaker 3: mean like it was like they were it was. It
Speaker 3: could be something else that was mundane. I think it
Speaker 3: was like lighting, like candles or something. It was something stupid.
Speaker 3: It was something really stupid that like if you'd have
Speaker 3: to take it a way out of it, like you
Speaker 3: could be like, no, this is what.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was only a transcript of the recordings that
Speaker 1: was provided in the first place. Yeah, And survivors that
Speaker 1: heard the supposed audio during the trial, they claimed this
Speaker 1: was clearly a lie, and the recordings they heard proved nothing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, that's what I was gonna exactly what you're
Speaker 3: saying exact. I remember that I can't remember exactly what
Speaker 3: was something along those lines, something like us or like
Speaker 3: what yeah, once you see the transcript or here it
Speaker 3: or whatever, you're like, no, this is nonsense. Like sure,
Speaker 3: I guess you could, but like, I don't think that's
Speaker 3: what they meant there. Like like the way they were talking,
Speaker 3: I think it was like almost like they're trying to like,
Speaker 3: you know, light candles or something stupid, and so it's
Speaker 3: like they have them saying something about fire or something,
Speaker 3: and so it's like if you interpret in a wildly
Speaker 3: retarded way, you can be like okay, but uh yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, man, I mean we're at two and a
Speaker 3: half hours. Then I think we hit it all. I
Speaker 3: mean obviously, I think me and you have them more
Speaker 3: to probably talk on another day about this, and there's
Speaker 3: definitely weird things. But man, it's been a long night
Speaker 3: and I think we gave a lot of people a
Speaker 3: lot to think about and kind of you know, we've
Speaker 3: covered all the main beats. I mean, there's definitely, like
Speaker 3: I say, he said, if you do have an itch
Speaker 3: for digging to more. I could recommend the Horton series
Speaker 3: if you want this in a more succinct version. You
Speaker 3: have your episode. Obviously we're going to a little more
Speaker 3: stuff here. But uh yeah, Austin, let me know where
Speaker 3: they can find you at. I appreciate you having you
Speaker 3: on obviously me and you do regular shows. But that's
Speaker 3: possible part of why I brought you on here knowing
Speaker 3: we're about to have a big, a big bunch of
Speaker 3: audience coming in here soon. So let them know where
Speaker 3: they can find you at. Because while we do two
Speaker 3: shows together, not all of our stuff is together, and
Speaker 3: we have two separate channels. We just whenever it's the
Speaker 3: shows we do together, we stream, we stream them to
Speaker 3: both of our platforms. But you know, for example, right now,
Speaker 3: this episode I'm doing right now, it's like my I
Speaker 3: do more like interviews type shows. You do more like
Speaker 3: solo type content. So yeah, you let them know where
Speaker 3: they can find you at. So you know, if you
Speaker 3: want my stuff obviously, no way Jose show. But if
Speaker 3: you want to awsome underclass podcast, let them know where
Speaker 3: they can find that at and other places where they
Speaker 3: can reach you at all.
Speaker 1: Right, brother, Yeah, so obviously you know I'll give my plugs.
Speaker 1: I swear to God, I have one final little type
Speaker 1: and this won't be more than two minutes, I swear,
Speaker 1: But it's it's at least a great way to kind
Speaker 1: of kind of at least put this into some sort
Speaker 1: of conclusive format, you know, in a way. Although we
Speaker 1: did basically cover the most you know, prominent points that
Speaker 1: were worthy of acknowledgment, but there's always more, and obviously
Speaker 1: we had talked privately, there is much more of a
Speaker 1: you know, of a wrinkle here that I was unexpecting,
Speaker 1: but as far as it was very unexpected. But still
Speaker 1: it seems to fall perfectly into place with the concept
Speaker 1: of kind of how I'm realizing this very well established
Speaker 1: network has been in place for far too long, and
Speaker 1: that the usual suspects as we continually discuss, seem to resurface,
Speaker 1: as yeah as being primarily a part of these clandestine
Speaker 1: operations and the layered aspect of them what they're attempting
Speaker 1: to achieve. So at a certain point we will get
Speaker 1: into the layered aspects of what was going on with Waco,
Speaker 1: because I do think that there's alternative theories out there
Speaker 1: that might actually fill in a lot of holes and provide,
Speaker 1: you know, again an interesting thread into a different avenue
Speaker 1: of perspective regarding this entire event, which blows me away.
Speaker 1: But again, so the point being here, how we can
Speaker 1: kind of end this thing and tie this thing off
Speaker 1: is basically just that you had obviously just mentioned you know,
Speaker 1: the fires, you know obviously, and then you have the
Speaker 1: recordings being provided from the mill cartons. But here's the
Speaker 1: point that's very important because years later, by nineteen ninety nine,
Speaker 1: former CIA officer Gene Colin had gone public with knowledge
Speaker 1: of Special Forces being president at Waco overseeing the bloody conclusion.
Speaker 1: Details were then given by the Dallas Morning News of
Speaker 1: at least three Delta Force Commandos, members of a secret
Speaker 1: army tactical unit, being present upfront and close and helping
Speaker 1: the FBI and the final tear gas assault on the
Speaker 1: Branch Davidian compound. He continued, saying that he heard the
Speaker 1: detailed accounts of the military's active involvement from three or
Speaker 1: four anti terrorist Delta Commandos as he worked with them
Speaker 1: on an overseas assignment in ninety three. I have much
Speaker 1: more of a concrete connection to this, but I can't
Speaker 1: get into it now, So with that.
Speaker 3: That's a great reason for people to check out our
Speaker 3: morning shows and our weekly live call in show because
Speaker 3: we do we do ME and you do a Monday
Speaker 3: through Friday. This is on both of our channels. You know,
Speaker 3: sometimes we do together, sometimes you sometimes me. Usually you
Speaker 3: have like the beginning of the week. I have like
Speaker 3: the end of the week where I'm running it, but
Speaker 3: it goes on both our channels, the morning Dump, and
Speaker 3: then also we have our weekly live call in show.
Speaker 3: Our morning shows at ten am Eastern are our live
Speaker 3: call in shows on Tuesdays at nine thirty pm Eastern.
Speaker 3: But if you want to make Collins, that's the place
Speaker 3: to do it where you can do. But yeah, this
Speaker 3: is definitely we're gonna have to definitely continue this conversation
Speaker 3: on one of those two we have already dead tomorrow,
Speaker 3: so probably the call in show, although I don't know
Speaker 3: if we'll fit it in with our guests, but yeah,
Speaker 3: I'll let you finish your point. But I was just
Speaker 3: going out that is That's definitely we're definitely gonna talk
Speaker 3: about this more because I am definitely fucking interested.
Speaker 1: It's I'm telling you, as soon as I drop a
Speaker 1: couple pull of I'm gonna draw some fucking truth bombs
Speaker 1: on yours that I discovered today that I was entirely
Speaker 1: unaware of that connects directly in with Waco. So uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's something that we're gonna have a lot of
Speaker 1: fun with in the very near future. But obviously, the
Speaker 1: way I describe it in my episode, I say, you know,
Speaker 1: I asked the question, why would why would they do
Speaker 1: such a thing, you know, to to these individuals right
Speaker 1: of this, this this organization, this group, Why would they
Speaker 1: do this to these people?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 1: And and then I essentially I basically say, really just
Speaker 1: by utilizing this statement right by by one of the
Speaker 1: FBI agents at Waco, because I felt like it, it
Speaker 1: perfectly embodies the mindset. Even if there is an alternative
Speaker 1: theory here that's far more plausible, this is the mindset.
Speaker 1: And and he says, the FBI agent at Waco would say,
Speaker 1: five thousand to one, those are the odds against us.
Speaker 1: Five thousand people to every one officer of the law.
Speaker 1: Do you know how we keep order with those odds?
Speaker 1: Because people believe were more powerful than we are. We
Speaker 1: project strength, and the people believe in that strength. When
Speaker 1: we sit outside a place like this for weeks on end,
Speaker 1: waiting for them to tire. We look weak in front
Speaker 1: of the rest of the world, and every asshole with
Speaker 1: a bomb kit starts getting ideas. This is more than
Speaker 1: a situation. Now, this is a symbol. Are we the
Speaker 1: kind of agency that coddles cop killers? And I feel
Speaker 1: like that is a great example of the retaliatory nature
Speaker 1: of and also just you know, Thibodeau put it in
Speaker 1: the terms of like, you know, these these guys that
Speaker 1: were extremely good athletes in high school and didn't really
Speaker 1: make it in the pros to any real level, and
Speaker 1: then we're like, what the fuck do I do it?
Speaker 1: With all this pithy?
Speaker 3: There's always the case. There's always the case. I mean
Speaker 3: it even even the FEDS when they were at there's
Speaker 3: like different types of FEDS. For one, there's like there
Speaker 3: were there were the era. They're also different eras where
Speaker 3: they felt more sophisticated. But like was it like Angleton
Speaker 3: I think was like a poet or something some nonsense,
Speaker 3: And it's like it's just like always it's always just
Speaker 3: like they're just mediocre, because otherwise you wouldn't be a FED,
Speaker 3: Like yeah, like like you know, why would you be
Speaker 3: working for the government if you were worth a damn.
Speaker 3: But anyways, Austin, I think we had this. We had
Speaker 3: a good coverage of Waco today. I'm looking forward to, uh,
Speaker 3: you know, hopefully the thing we were talking about drops
Speaker 3: the following day after this. So you guys keep an
Speaker 3: eye out, follow all of our socials and stuff, and
Speaker 3: I'm sure you'll know. But Austin, where can they find you?
Speaker 3: All right?
Speaker 1: Brother? Yeah, you guys know, if you can financially support
Speaker 1: me in any way, then obviously the Patreon dot com
Speaker 1: slash The Underclass Podcast is the best way to do.
Speaker 1: So there are certain incentives in place still at this moment,
Speaker 1: and beyond that, I mean, just follow me at theater
Speaker 1: thug awp on Twitter and the Underclass Podcast on Instagram,
Speaker 1: and uh yeah, I'm excited for this week, man.
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, dude, got a lot of week down the pipe.
Speaker 1: Yeah yea yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean by the time this comes out, I'll already
Speaker 3: be hanging out with you. So that's fucking nope. But
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Speaker 3: you know. Then obviously I have my morning show, then
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Speaker 3: live call hang out. We dig into like some research,
Speaker 3: you know, current events whatever, So it's kind of all
Speaker 3: the place we call it the morning dump. And obviously
Speaker 3: it's a play on words because ha ha, you poop
Speaker 3: in the morning. But also it's like a dump, an
Speaker 3: info dump, you know. People refer to things like that
Speaker 3: as dumps, you know, like you know, I got like
Speaker 3: a large file dump or something. That's what this is.
Speaker 3: We're dumping info on you, that's what we're doing there.
Speaker 3: So it's a fun time. But with that, guys, we're
Speaker 3: gonna get out of here. I'll see you guys soon,
Speaker 3: but yeah, make sure to you know, she should follow
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Speaker 3: I see you guys on one of these morning streams
Speaker 3: or something. With that, we are out of here. Goodbye.