WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:02.680 Top lots of productions. 2 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:27.719 I'm gonna find them all. A seven nation Army couldn't 3 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:34.079 holding me back. They're gonna rip it off, taking that 4 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:39.240 time right behind my back. Then I'm talking to us 5 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:46.759 something night because I can't walk again. I can fall 6 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:51.119 through my mind, have a sick on red. 7 00:00:53.079 --> 00:01:24.200 There an't a message coming from my time. Hey, welcome 8 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:27.560 to the nowe Jose podcast. This is Jose Galley. Soon 9 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:31.760 today we are covering Waco. We are it's the day. 10 00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:35.040 This is going to drop the day before the anniversary 11 00:01:35.159 --> 00:01:39.760 of the Waco disaster, and this will also drop the 12 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:41.680 in the next day. The following day will be me 13 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:43.840 and Austin will be doing something very special for the 14 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:46.599 Oklahoma City bombing. So these two things tie right and together. 15 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:49.840 So this is also kind of a special moment in 16 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:52.359 a sense, I think for me and Austin because how 17 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:55.280 we how we met is a he did a big 18 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:57.879 Ruby Ridge episode and that's how we became familiarized with 19 00:01:57.879 --> 00:01:59.920 each other. I've always been kind of more like Ben 20 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:02.680 and a known for my coverage in local city bombing, 21 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:05.519 and the two things that connects those together is obviously Waco, 22 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:08.719 and that's a you know, super important ties into the 23 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:10.400 Open Sea bombing, and I know there's gonna be a 24 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:12.479 lot of people probably having eyes on me and Austin's 25 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:15.240 channel here in the next few days, so I figured 26 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:16.919 it was good to kind of let you guys know 27 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:19.120 what led up to it, and also take a take 28 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:21.240 a moment to remember all the people who lives were 29 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:24.560 lost in that awful tragedy and remind people not to 30 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:28.639 trust the leviathan that is our government. I mean, that's 31 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:30.919 kind of the ongoing through line of all times with 32 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:34.599 me and Austin shows. But with that, before we get 33 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:36.439 into it, I do want to take a second to 34 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:38.960 pay the bills. Obviously, you guys can fast forward, no 35 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:42.000 big whoop if obviously if it's your premiering right now, 36 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:44.800 you can't. But I do want to let you guys 37 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:47.759 know that our friends over at Nadau Shave Co are 38 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:50.680 sponsoring this episode. Is a very great product. This is 39 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:53.120 really better in all in all ways and the typical 40 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:56.159 shaving I know most guys use those multiplade shaving cartridges. 41 00:02:56.520 --> 00:02:59.000 I know this is a single blade safety razor. 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This company is literally born out 54 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:32.319 refusing COVID mandate, so is a company that also probably 55 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:36.120 shares your values assuming you watch the show. So really 56 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:37.879 it's kind of a no brainer. I really don't know 57 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:40.680 what you're doing, So use jose at checkout at endoshevco 58 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:42.879 dot com let him know I sent you. And with that, 59 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.599 let's get into the content. Let's get autent on here. 60 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:49.439 What's up about? How are you doing, good man? 61 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:50.759 How are you doing? Brother good? 62 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:54.000 I'm glad to be here with you. It's finally I've actually, 63 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:56.080 I don't think I've ever really done awake episode. So 64 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:58.520 it's kind of you know on that to I mean, 65 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:00.319 I've done a ton of episodes and a ton of different things, 66 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:02.800 but never Waco, So I don't not that I think 67 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:05.520 I can remember recall at least, so I mean I'm 68 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:07.319 mentioned near five hundred. I'm like four to ninety I 69 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:10.520 think right now. So yeah, the first time you know Waco, 70 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:12.400 I mean, obviously that'd be right up in my alley. 71 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:13.639 But here I am with you. As I said, it 72 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:16.040 is kind of weird. This is like the the meeting 73 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:17.480 of the minds in a sense. Not that you're like 74 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:19.399 the Ruby Ridge guy. You've kind of been like all 75 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:21.399 over the place I've but you've been more of a 76 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:24.279 generalist and honestly much more honestly at the same time 77 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:26.879 having a depth more knowledge. You're more the researcher. I 78 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:30.319 usually flout you as in our dynamic duo, as being 79 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.240 the researcher with the side of podcaster, and I'm the 80 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:35.639 podcaster with the side of researcher. So that's kind of 81 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:37.920 the dynamic between the two of us. I think. I mean, 82 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:39.399 I do a little bit my own research, but I'm 83 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:42.040 much more much more honed in on something like this, 84 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:44.519 you know, thing like Oklahoma City bombing. You you're all 85 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:46.519 of a place, and so I know you started out 86 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.240 with things like Ruby Ridge, that's where you cut your teeth. 87 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:51.120 So we're backing up a little bit. I know you're 88 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:54.439 you're you're onto the Finders and Dutroux and all stuff 89 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:56.279 like that. But me and you, we're taking it back 90 00:04:56.279 --> 00:04:56.759 to basics. 91 00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:56.920 Here. 92 00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.279 We're going back to Waco. But even then we were 93 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:01.399 talking to preach. Yet even then, even with all that, 94 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.000 we're still seeing it with new eyes. So we're seeing 95 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.759 the the this stuff and looking at like, oh my god. 96 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:08.800 So I think this will be a fun episode. So 97 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:11.040 this this will be unique because I mean, you did 98 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:13.319 do an a Waco episode a long time ago on 99 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:16.120 your channel back in the early days. I highly recommend, though, 100 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:18.240 by the way, people go check out Austin's channel from 101 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:20.560 the start. I think that's the best way to listen 102 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:22.360 to this channel because it is cool to see and 103 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:24.480 it's great. I think it's like, honestly, if you're a 104 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:28.399 perspective a conspiracy theorist out there, that's the way you 105 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.959 should start, Like, you should start with Austin's the Underclass 106 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:35.959 Podcast channel or the Underclass Podcast. Start from the beginning 107 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:39.399 because it literally is like thirty minute episodes on Zionism, 108 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:43.839 thirty minute episode nine to eleven, thirty minute episode on Waco, 109 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.040 Like it's like all the basics, so it's like literally 110 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:48.600 basic building blocks, and then you know shorter episodes two, 111 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:51.000 so little bite size things, you know, like twenty to 112 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:53.680 forty minutes long, and then as time went on they 113 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:56.680 became longer and longer and more depth. And it's great. 114 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:58.839 Now we've gone to the point where you're tackling like 115 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:02.600 Kinkora trafficking scandal on like a whole episode, and doing 116 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:06.120 and doing five hour podcasts on like you know, your 117 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:09.399 strings of murders from decades ago. So I think it's 118 00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:11.800 great though seeing it from the beginning. So but we're 119 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:13.920 going back to the beginning, but with a new flair, 120 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.879 with with the with the edge that me and you 121 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:19.639 have gained from a from a long time in in 122 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:21.000 this uh, in this realm. 123 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:23.879 That's really how it feels like. I was just kind 124 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:27.600 of I spent the past few hours just kind of 125 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.480 like going back over a lot of my notes and 126 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:33.399 then just kind of like honestly, I jumped down a 127 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:37.160 huge rabbit hole on accident and got got entirely distracted, 128 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:42.560 but still basically I was just reflecting back on, you know, 129 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:46.519 more of the basics of of what I really the 130 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:50.439 undertaking I initially, at least the approach that I initially 131 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:55.079 undertook in my UH in my coverage of Waco, and 132 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:58.319 and looking back on it now reflecting it. Of course, 133 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:02.279 hindsight is twenty in certain ways as always, and so 134 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:05.560 it's it's like I would have done it much differently, 135 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:08.800 but hey, I still find value in it. It's it's 136 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:12.680 a struggle actually going back and listening to my presentation 137 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:17.759 I feel, but hey, okay, it shows growth. That's how 138 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:18.879 you have to embrace. 139 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:20.720 It, right, Yeah, I mean I've been relistening to my 140 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:22.920 old okay see stuff in preparation for what we're about 141 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:25.360 to do this weekend. And it's I do that every time, 142 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:27.199 you know, I ever listened to just kind of gets great, 143 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:29.560 because honestly, it's just it. It's like and honestly, most 144 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:30.879 of the time I fast forward to the parts I 145 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:32.560 talk because it's I just want to hear Richard Booth 146 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:34.680 and just kind of you know, like when I'm driving 147 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.000 or something. So yeah, I get you, but it is 148 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:39.639 it is rough looking back, you know, especially when you're like, 149 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:41.720 I've improved this, I've tightened up that, and you're like, 150 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:44.800 I'm listening to the old audio the awful Like a 151 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:46.560 lot of the isms that I've gotten, I feel like 152 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:48.040 I've straightened out. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm 153 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:51.160 still not. I still have a lot of flaws, if any, 154 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:53.800 when it comes to public speaking, But by God have 155 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:55.920 I have I smoothed out a lot of them over 156 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:58.319 time when you look back. But even still people seem 157 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:00.720 to like that. So uh that though, I will say 158 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:02.439 there's a little there's some news coming out soon for 159 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.600 those who like who like that series. I mean, there'll 160 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:09.199 be more to come. I'll let you know after because 161 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:11.959 it won't be on my channel, but somebody else there's 162 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:14.519 gonna be something very very very very very similar, So 163 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:17.040 keep an eye out for that. I'll obviously promote that 164 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:18.920 when that's a thing, just because even though it's not 165 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:20.879 gonna be something that I personally gain from because it 166 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:22.879 won't be on my channel, I think it'll be a 167 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:25.800 great useful thing for people to be able to learn 168 00:08:25.879 --> 00:08:29.759 about the Oklahoma City bombing. But with that, Austin, let's get 169 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:31.639 into it, dude, let's start out with I think the 170 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:34.080 best way to kind of tackle this is to kind 171 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:37.600 of start with characters. Although I mean, obviously there are 172 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:40.720 other characters like FBI negotiators and this guy and that guy, 173 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:42.320 but and like we could go into each one of 174 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:44.080 the little bios and we kind of will maybe as 175 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:46.320 we go, But I really think that only there's only 176 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.519 two bios in my opinion, that really matter, like a 177 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:53.159 ton of ton, like that's David Koresh and then and 178 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:57.240 then in a collective sense, the Davidian you know, in general, 179 00:08:57.279 --> 00:08:58.679 like the the I guess, and that would almost be 180 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.480 more of like the belief system really, So those are 181 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:02.960 the two things I think you kind of wrap your 182 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:07.080 head around before you start digging into this. So I think, probably, 183 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:09.480 I guess David probably the best place to start. So 184 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:11.559 just kind of give me a breakdown of who this 185 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:14.559 guy is. I mean, if you want, we can start 186 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:17.080 all the way from the beginning with him. I guess 187 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.360 let's just let's just jump right into Korsh. We'll probably 188 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:21.919 do a Dawn thirty minutes on just Koresh himself, but 189 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.000 let's let's go ahead and go. Let's go start with 190 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:26.399 Koresh so give me kind of a breakdown on who 191 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:28.879 he is and what he's about. And then that way, 192 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:31.799 when whenever we start getting to the chronological sequence of 193 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:34.000 events here, we kind of have an idea of who 194 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:36.240 the person we're dealing with as they go go on. 195 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:42.120 So right, yeah, I think that is basically the perfect 196 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:49.120 starting point. And knowing kind of the personal history and 197 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.240 background of Koresh himself is so strange. I mean it 198 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:58.879 begins to instantly, you know, Vernon Wayne Howell, right, like 199 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:05.639 it just kind of an entirely different just what the 200 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:09.879 name kind of evokes in general, you know, psychologically, it's 201 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:13.960 it's just entirely different David koresh It. It is obviously 202 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:18.679 it's become very much immortalized in many ways, but still 203 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:23.120 I think it's more palatable as well. And but the 204 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:27.799 Branch Davidians, they originated in nineteen fifty five from a 205 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:32.279 schism in the Shepherd's Rod or the Rod or the Davidians, 206 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:36.960 which were this offshoot of the Seventh day Adventist Church, 207 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:40.720 right the worldwide Seventh day Adventist Church and and the 208 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:44.399 Shepherd's Rod or the Davidians were founded in nineteen twenty 209 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:49.919 nine by Victor Hotef, and this man was allegedly the 210 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:53.960 president and prophet after he was excommunicated from the Seventh 211 00:10:54.039 --> 00:11:00.279 day Adventist for promoting heretical doctrines. Apparently, and so, according 212 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.960 to the Christian Research Institute, the group was headquartered at 213 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:07.559 a property known as Mount Carmel Center near Waco, Texas, 214 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.159 and reached its peak in the early nineteen fifties with 215 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:14.840 thousands of adherents before splintering into various factions after Hotef's 216 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:18.399 death in nineteen fifty five. And so, at the core 217 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:22.399 of his ideology and the foundation of the Davidian's belief 218 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:27.320 was this imminent prophecy of an apocalypse involving the second 219 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:29.840 coming of Jesus Christ and the defeat of the evil 220 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:33.840 armies of Babylon. So you instantly have this doomsday aspect 221 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:36.960 of this was very much in vogue at the time. 222 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:42.039 Right consider nineteen fifty five, Like, does that not feel 223 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:45.720 like prime mk ultra territory as far as I'm considered 224 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:50.639 in the sort of the sense of the philosophical occultic 225 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.919 occultist underground, Like, it's very important and interesting to at 226 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:00.519 least recognize the timing because much of this begins to surface. Uh, 227 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:04.919 you know, in this underlying subculture that really you know, 228 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:10.840 wasn't quite recognized at such a public level and definitely 229 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:15.279 was not as influential in any way h culturally as 230 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:18.240 much as it became. And so I will say it 231 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.320 does make sense in a Cold War sense too, because 232 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:22.720 it was like peak Cold War era, because it was 233 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:24.840 like very much just like, oh no, they're gonna bomb 234 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:27.240 us in a moment. The apocalypse was. It was very 235 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:29.559 much an apocalyptic mindset at that time. I mean, hell, 236 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:31.440 that's a that's a through line between all these I 237 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:33.679 mean you have chaos you I mean like you have 238 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:35.960 like a with the I didn't even mean SI guess 239 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:36.600 I'm at Manson. 240 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:38.919 I just might think chaos will think it. But you know, 241 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:40.440 just a lot of different care There was a lot 242 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:42.240 of different groups during the time that were like really 243 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:46.320 pushing apocaly you know, apocalyptic messages, whether it be race. 244 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:51.039 Wars, whatever, socialism was Jim Jones and the People's simple. 245 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:53.720 I mean, it's just like this is the the sort 246 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:56.480 of like the mindset at the time that's being very 247 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:01.279 much reflected in in the ideology andhilosophy of the Davidians. 248 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:07.440 And so the center itself named Mount Carmel after a 249 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:11.240 mountain in Israel mentioned in Joshua nineteen twenty six in 250 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:15.919 the Old Testament, so instantly you know this is directly 251 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:23.320 connected to fundamentally it becomes a sort of a sort 252 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:28.840 of nationalist Zionism in a way like Christian Zionism, vein 253 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:31.480 that it very much taps into it at the least, 254 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:34.879 which was becoming prominent in the mindset of like this 255 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:39.440 the right wing militia types of the day, which of 256 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:44.559 course this is more in line with consider just the 257 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:49.519 after effects and consequences later on, obviously, because this is 258 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:54.559 really in its infancy in fifty five, but still by 259 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:59.279 fifty nine, Victor's widow, Florence Hotef, she announced that the 260 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.879 expected armageddon was about to take place. But after the 261 00:14:02.919 --> 00:14:06.120 failure of this prophecy, control of Mount Carmel Center would 262 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:09.440 fall to Benjamin Rodin, who was the founder of the 263 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:14.559 Branch Davidians Seventh Day Adventist association known as Branch Davidians, 264 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.440 so he would be the one to promote this different 265 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:24.039 doctrinal belief system uh than that of the original Davidian organization. 266 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:28.600 And it was upon his death that Lois Rodin his 267 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.960 widow would take control of the center. So it's like 268 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:36.759 this is this is very interesting as passing through through 269 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:41.039 these right channels and and kind of making its way 270 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:44.399 into the hands of Vernon Wayne Hall, who would later 271 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:49.440 become David Koresh, which that allot. It's like he's he's 272 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:53.759 taking Hey, man, I understand, I understand the notion. Right, 273 00:14:53.799 --> 00:15:01.000 you go on the uh the pilgrimage. Okay, he returned 274 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:04.600 embracing an entirely new identity, which, to be clear for 275 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:06.480 the audience, I don't think I mean, maybe I missed it, 276 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:08.000 but I don't think he laid it out explicitly. He 277 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:10.519 did visit Israel, so. 278 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:13.039 I will be okay, it's like, because yeah, so you 279 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:14.799 said mentioned Pilgrima. I just want to make sure we 280 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:16.759 didn't actually gloss that over and be were like, what 281 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:19.519 are you talking about? Obviously kid around. That is weird 282 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.360 that he he goes and disappears Israel, comes back and 283 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.039 now he's a change man, so you know, yeah. 284 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:29.960 Yeah, and and so multiple reports would claim that Lois 285 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:34.960 considered their son originally George Roden unfit to assume the 286 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:39.440 position of the prophet, and would instead groom this young 287 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:42.519 man by the name of Vernon Wayne Wayne Howell to 288 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:46.840 be her successor, and and she would apparently be behind 289 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:50.960 later changing his name to David Koresh. Yeah. 290 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:54.480 So so that alone is he would be surprised that 291 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:55.799 there was some weirdness there. 292 00:15:55.960 --> 00:16:00.399 I just he doesn't even bother. Yeah, he grew up. 293 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:03.279 His mother was was like a fifteen year old when 294 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:06.240 she had him. It's like Charles Manson almost. I know, 295 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:09.080 I don't want to make that uh you know, that parallel, 296 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:11.320 because I don't I think that that's a kind of 297 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:16.559 not quite accurate obviously, but but you know, but still 298 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.159 it's too similar to you know, to not to not 299 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:21.320 sort of acknowledge, you know. 300 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:25.759 And anyway, Yeah, I just I just it just seems 301 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:29.639 like a the grooming thing. Maybe maybe maybe maybe I'm 302 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:31.840 seeing something that's not there. It's based on just simply 303 00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:33.679 the fact that this young woman, I mean, does seem 304 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.240 weird that she would pass over her son who would 305 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:39.919 be the next in line and then for this young man. Yeah, exactly, 306 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:41.679 there you go. Okay, you know what, there you go. 307 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:43.840 I forgot that was the case. So, yeah, they developed 308 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:44.559 a sexulationship. 309 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:45.360 Seventies something. 310 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:49.159 Yeah, she's old as hell. So like, yeah, so I mean, 311 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:51.679 because this is you were talking the fifties, this stuff 312 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:54.120 takes place in the nineties. So she was like head 313 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:56.559 of the church with her husband. Not head of the church, 314 00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:58.960 but like at the side, the right, she was like 315 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:01.080 at the front, the four front of this stuff. You know, 316 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:03.720 in the fifties, that's when it was a day. So 317 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:06.599 like we're talking like the nineties with Waco. So just 318 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.799 through the math. She's old. So this is weird. He's 319 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:12.160 probably in what his twenties, early thirties, I think around 320 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:14.039 this time. I'm not exactly sure how old he is, 321 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:16.759 but would be my guest, maybe late twenties and I 322 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:18.720 mean maybe mid to late thirties actually, And now I 323 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:20.720 think about it, I'm not sure. Question either way. 324 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:27.880 Bizarre, Yeah, it's it is very strange, but so it it. 325 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:30.759 And also, you know, keep in mind, as I mentioned, 326 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:35.480 fifteen year old mother. Uh, he basically was at least 327 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:42.079 originally raised by his grandparents. But yeah, very very I 328 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:46.759 would I read about how he had apparently been abused 329 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:51.640 allegedly as well, his mother had brought in some strange 330 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:54.640 man into the house and he had been physically violent, 331 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:58.279 and and so there were a lot of implications and 332 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:01.319 allegations that he would he had been severely abused when 333 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:04.559 he was a child, So that alone, you know, it 334 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:08.759 doesn't again draw parallels with a Manson type unfortunately, because 335 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:12.200 of that statistic level. 336 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:13.240 Of lady grooming. I don't though I don't remember an 337 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:15.319 older lady with Manson. I wasn't implying that, but I 338 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:17.759 just especially when it comes to program to kill stuff. 339 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.039 I remember there were multiple serial killers that have and 340 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:22.359 it is always it seems like there's these older women 341 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:25.640 that are grooming young men. Hell, even the I believe 342 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:28.799 that Kyle Spits seven six four thing recently, there was 343 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:30.880 an older lady with him that was grooming him as well, 344 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:33.880 like much older. You're not actually exactly I will, but 345 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:36.160 a good deal older. So it is, it is weird. 346 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.640 It always seems to be these young, weird older ladies 347 00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:41.359 that groom these young men to do these So I 348 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:43.640 just it's just it's it's just it's a it's a 349 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:45.759 common through line. Obviously this made me nothing here, but 350 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:49.000 it is weird that we have this guy who, you know, 351 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:52.559 he's kind of a a what's the word, like, he's 352 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:56.240 he inspires passion among people and you know charismatic. That's 353 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.440 where a charismatic guy being groomed by an older lady. 354 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.440 Like I mean, it's it's yeah, I don't know, you 355 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:04.319 just kind of can see. And then you see how 356 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.119 he approaches sex to is described approach sext with other 357 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:09.440 people too. It's like, I mean, he's having sex with 358 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:11.480 older you know what he's claiming. Supposedly, he's just doing 359 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:12.960 it to create children. I don't know, if you may 360 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:14.960 a very real might just be that way. So it's like, 361 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:17.160 I don't know, there's just weirdness here, but go on. 362 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:22.400 Yeah, he had always made me uncomfortable certain allegations. Well 363 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:27.599 we'll get into too some of those details. But yeah, 364 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:33.160 it's again this is with Koresh himself, you know, just 365 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:39.480 kind of recognizing these strange As far as his extensive backstory, 366 00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:45.039 you know, first of all, you have Vernon Wayne Howell 367 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.640 choosing David in order to include himself and the lineage 368 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:53.160 linking him directly to the biblical king David, from who 369 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:56.839 the New Savior would descend, also connected to the throne 370 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.440 of David which Jesus would occupy after he returned, and 371 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:07.319 the final judgment, and so there was basically the last 372 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:12.000 name Koresh was. It has much more of a backstory. 373 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:16.880 Vernon chose Koresh because it is the biblical name of 374 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:21.599 Cyrus the Great. For his first heavenly insight, Vernon was 375 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:25.960 reminded of Cyrus, King of Persia, mentioned prominently in Isaiah 376 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.279 forty five. Babylon conquered Israel in five eighty six BC 377 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:34.359 and took many Jews into captivity, But when Cyrus and 378 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:38.000 his Persian army defeated the Babylonians forty seven years later, 379 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:42.039 they freed the Jews, returned them to their homeland, and 380 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:44.880 with the Persian king's own money, rebuilt the temple there. 381 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.839 Cyrus is described in Isaiah as a messiah of God, 382 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.759 meaning one appointed by the Lord to provide a special service. 383 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:57.000 Several messiahs are mentioned in the Bible, but Cyrus is 384 00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:04.880 the only gentile so designated. So it's Vernon hell. He's 385 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:09.119 informed that he was this name Cyrus, whose name in 386 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:13.119 Hebrew is Koresh, and Vernon must take that as his name. 387 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:17.240 Like his biblical namesake David, Koresh would rescue the righteous 388 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:22.319 from Babylon, so that was his prophecy and uh and 389 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:28.680 so obviously it's it's very much you know, it's a 390 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:34.920 strange hearkening back to like this very very uh. It 391 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:43.200 may maybe you would say kabalistic psychological theological framework, you know, 392 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:45.960 you know, to some extent at the very least. 393 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:48.519 It's hard not to notice this guy goes Israel comes 394 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:51.200 back as the good boy. Like it's literally like this case, 395 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:54.279 Cyrus is the one is the one non Jew that's 396 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:56.759 elevated this sort of status. So it is like, I 397 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:58.440 don't know, there's something there. I mean, obviously not nothing 398 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.480 much to do with that, just interesting at least worth 399 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:01.920 pointing out. 400 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:05.759 And it's crazier than that because there were older members 401 00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:08.559 of the group that claimed Vernon Hall first came to 402 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:11.200 Mount Carmel in eighty one and didn't appear to be 403 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:16.519 that bright. He showed none of these this right, these characteristics, 404 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:22.039 and apparently it gets very interesting. But first of all, 405 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:25.839 it's the credibility at the very least, like just mentioning 406 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:30.920 David Koresh and the member Stephen Schneider, who they had 407 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:33.839 been traveling the world, as we had mentioned, talking to 408 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:37.559 various religious leaders, and they would tell respective members that 409 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:40.640 they were only trying to learn what the Bible actually means. 410 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.960 Various biblical scholars, theological experts, priests, and rabbis from all 411 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:49.240 over the world had been flying into Waco, Texas, only 412 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.240 to visit Mount Carmel and study David's teachings of something 413 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:57.079 he called the Seven Seals, right and which that alone, 414 00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:04.079 the seven Seals. They sound fascinated, but the story, uh 415 00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:06.880 would would always be the same. Each one of them 416 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:10.000 would claim that David came to their seminary school or 417 00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:13.160 their synagogue and sat down with them only to teach 418 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:15.559 them more about the Bible within an hour than they 419 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:17.920 had learned in the past two or three years at 420 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:21.039 their school or house of study. So he had something, 421 00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:25.440 he had something going on psychologically at a certain point 422 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:29.759 where man I heard it put into terms of after 423 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:34.839 after Manson went to I forget the name of the prison, 424 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:41.200 not the not the institution, not the psychiatric institution in 425 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:46.759 in California. I'm trying to remember, but either way, they 426 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:49.559 said that once he he came out of that facility, 427 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.960 he he had he had developed an entirely different set 428 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:57.519 of skills, and he basically the controller, the control, the 429 00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:02.440 essentially the controller. I forget the terms they put it 430 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:05.839 in like the controlled became the controller something like that. 431 00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:09.440 And it was basically considering the idea of he was 432 00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:13.279 he was trained with the sophisticated methods of mind control, 433 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:17.200 that he was basically given these set of techniques that 434 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:21.400 he would be able to employ himself through these utilizing 435 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:28.359 these specific you know, psychedelic compounds, various drugs right essentially, 436 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:32.000 Oh my god, I'd read about this individual. We'll get 437 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.680 into it later. It's it's it's fascinating stuff because they're 438 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:35.640 talking about. 439 00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:41.240 Real quick on Koresh. You obviously, whether whether he's whether 440 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.400 he's a whether he was with it or not. I mean, 441 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:47.640 there are on this topic. Weren't there statements I believe 442 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:50.119 from his brother or someone, you know, some sort of 443 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.160 you know, sibling or something like that that you know, 444 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:54.039 stated that he was like I don't know if this 445 00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:55.920 was supposed to be a Paul Bunyan tale or what. 446 00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:58.079 But then you know, obviously they speak to like, you 447 00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.519 know him, you know, always read the Bible voraciously from 448 00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:04.079 a young age and stuff like that. So, I mean, 449 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:06.440 I know, then you said, then they say, do you 450 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:10.400 do you remember the specifically offhand? Uh, the the the 451 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:12.759 sources of the ones claiming that he seemed kind of 452 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:15.160 just not that smart when he was there. I mean, 453 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.000 it was just just kind of the the just kind 454 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:18.599 of the general feeling or what. 455 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:24.759 Yeah, it was basically it was described as there was 456 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:29.720 essentially the older group of members who had been around 457 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.839 before Vernon changed his name, before he was even before 458 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:36.839 the leadership, right as far as the hierarchy of the 459 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:40.680 organization and the group itself before the leadership changed hands, 460 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:46.279 and and this sort of strange dynamic between obviously you know, 461 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:52.920 wrote In and Vernon. How then then you have kind of, uh, 462 00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:55.480 you know, you had this really kind of like a 463 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:59.200 divide fracturing between the members where they they did not 464 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.319 embrace this new way and new outlook and perspective of 465 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:07.359 the group. And so that was essentially how it was 466 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:10.759 described that this was in nineteen eighty one that he 467 00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:14.440 had first entered Mount Carmel and had first come around 468 00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:17.799 the group itself. Then this is when they were describing 469 00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:20.039 him as not appearing to be that bright when he 470 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:23.000 first came around, even though he had previously been a 471 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.400 carpenter and was good at fixing things, but also had 472 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:30.400 a stutter and lacked any social skills. Certainly not expected 473 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.640 to possess leadership qualities. This is how he was described. 474 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:38.119 So this is when he goes on a pilgrimage to Israel, 475 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.319 returns claiming to have been shown a new, deeper knowledge 476 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.720 of the scripture, granting him the understanding and ability to 477 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:48.559 interpret and teach the Seven Seals, and had acquired depth 478 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.200 of knowledge, including new gifts he did not previously possess. 479 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:54.920 So that's based on are you. 480 00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:58.279 Saying he was occulted? Is that what you're saying he 481 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.559 was granted with knowledge exactly? 482 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:05.759 It seems like the Vanguard revealed the secret knowledge rights 483 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:10.480 and and uh, then he returned embracing an entirely new 484 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:15.160 outlook and identity as well. And and again this charisma 485 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.640 that that apparently did not it wasn't a part of 486 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:23.400 his just his Yeah, obviously, it's it's just like a 487 00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:27.359 fascinating aspect of the story at the very least. And 488 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.000 I do know that, yes, he did, like there are 489 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:33.200 reports of his of his siblings claiming that all he 490 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:36.920 did was read the Bible. So it's very very possible that, 491 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:39.640 I mean, something led him to the group in the 492 00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:43.279 first place. I'm not exactly sure what that that might 493 00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:46.559 have been, but you know, there are kind of kind 494 00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:50.720 of alternative theories obviously to to to that, but still 495 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:54.519 as the official narrative goes, and and the the you know, 496 00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:58.319 as far as just the corroborated background of the group 497 00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:01.839 itself and the members and and then their perspective on 498 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:06.400 Vernon Howell and David Koresh, this is how the story goes, 499 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:12.400 and so it's again according to to other members of 500 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:15.400 the group, David would would issue a challenge to people 501 00:28:16.039 --> 00:28:19.640 after returning, and he would say, this book is sealed 502 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:23.559 with seven seals. No man can reveal it. I wonder 503 00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.000 if you might let me show you maybe I can 504 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:29.400 reveal it. And then he would he would basically challenge 505 00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:32.920 these staunch religious people who would grow upset by this 506 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:36.559 and typically say things like are you saying you are Christ? 507 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:39.839 Or are you saying you are the Lamb? And he 508 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.480 would he would respond, no, I'm not saying any of that. 509 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:46.039 I'm just saying, let me show you the seven seals. 510 00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:50.039 And all I wanted after being exposed to this story 511 00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:53.720 was to sit down with David Koresh and have present 512 00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:56.519 to me the seven seals. Honestly, like it really, it 513 00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:00.000 really did make me feel like, what is happening if 514 00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:06.920 to attract so many different experts around the world, theological experts, 515 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:09.960 I mean considered within you know, their field of interest, 516 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:13.079 and and along with you know, spiritual leaders all over 517 00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:15.839 the world and all different walks of faith that were 518 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:19.319 coming specifically to Waco, Texas, to a to a tiny 519 00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:24.039 compound with David Koresh Vernon Wayne Howell to have him 520 00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:27.000 present them these seven Seals over the course of like 521 00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:29.880 a couple of weeks. Sometimes I forget how long it 522 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:34.680 would it would officially take, but but yes it was. Uh. 523 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:37.880 That alone is very fascinating, you know, just that appeal 524 00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:42.400 that that he did gain over time and and utilizing 525 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:44.680 this presentation of the Seven Seals. 526 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:47.160 But so. 527 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:53.319 David Thibodeaux, right, one of the Davidian members who survived 528 00:29:53.880 --> 00:30:00.359 the the siege. Uh, he claimed that David Koresh one 529 00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:02.799 time he would he jumped on stage in his introduction 530 00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:06.519 to the Seven Seals, teaching to a new large group 531 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.880 and lifted up the Bible and said a lot of 532 00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:12.200 people look at this as two pieces of cow leather 533 00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:15.000 and a bunch of pages in between, and some and 534 00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:18.319 some people spend their whole lives trying to figure out 535 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:21.759 what this book says, what this book means, And he 536 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:23.680 held it up to his forehead and he said, I 537 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.359 see this book panoramically from Genesis to Revelation, as if 538 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:29.920 it is happening before me right now as I'm speaking 539 00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:34.880 to you. And Thibodeau said his immediate internal reaction was like, yeah, 540 00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:38.039 all right, man, like that's that's obviously a tall tale. 541 00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:41.279 But then over the course of the next two weeks, 542 00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:46.119 really within around three nights, two or three nights, Thibodeaux 543 00:30:46.119 --> 00:30:50.279 claimed to be convinced that David Koresh really did see 544 00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:55.240 the scripture in this way, and apparently six months before 545 00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:58.759 the raid took place. I always found this story strange 546 00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:03.000 that that David Tibbert would tell that he was sh 547 00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:07.039 up shingling a roof of the larger house when David 548 00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:10.480 Koresh looked at him and said, Thibodeau, what are you 549 00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:12.240 going to do six months from now when there are 550 00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:14.599 tanks running up and down the Double E Ranch road. 551 00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:17.720 And he looked at him and said, David, I don't 552 00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:21.200 care what your message is. This is America. They're never 553 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.799 going to bring tanks on this property. He reportedly did 554 00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:29.000 the same thing with Kathy Schroeder, another member, when he 555 00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:31.279 looked at her and he said, Kathy, what are you 556 00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:34.480 going to He goes, Kathy, what are you going to 557 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:39.920 do when helicopters are buzzing this building? And she says, David, 558 00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:43.599 there's never going to be helicopters on this property. So 559 00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:51.039 those two like specifically occur, you know, and the demographic 560 00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:58.400 that was attracted to this ideology obviously, you know, I was, 561 00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:03.640 I was very like struck by the fact. Wh right, No, 562 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:08.480 it seemed more like, yeah, like it. I honestly, it 563 00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:14.359 seemed strangely like in a way. Obviously the racial dynamic 564 00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:17.359 is much different with Jonestown, but still you can kind 565 00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:20.440 of make some sort of strange connection there because you 566 00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:25.720 have but but yet they're more I hate to say civilized, 567 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.559 but I mean that that is a reality in regard to. 568 00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:31.200 Of a higher socio economic class. 569 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:34.200 Yeah. Absolutely, that's a better way to put it, for sure. 570 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:39.799 But still, you know, you have Wayne Martin as a 571 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:44.160 great example. You know, he's he's he's a black guy 572 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:46.599 who was a Harvard Law School graduate and served as 573 00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:51.240 Mount Carmel's resident attorney and was apparently third in command 574 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:55.039 or second or third behind or equal to Steve Schneider, 575 00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:57.720 and was he was the first to call nine one 576 00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:59.720 one the day of February twenty eighth from the raid 577 00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:03.799 uh began and it began to ensue, and and he 578 00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:05.920 was he was talking about the women and children right, 579 00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:15.440 calling it off for that risk. But yeah, it's really 580 00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:19.279 before we get into much of that. I should bring 581 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:23.599 it back to kind of a little bit more of 582 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:28.839 like explaining the unorthodox way of life embraced by the 583 00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:29.880 members of the group. 584 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:33.400 Ye, and bring it to anyways. So, yeah, we've kind 585 00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:35.960 of covered crushes bio, we've kind of threw out, sort 586 00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:38.559 of weaved in and out the bio of the overall church. 587 00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:41.240 But obviously there's some other elements we should probably touch 588 00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:44.200 on before we get into it. I'm assuming probably the 589 00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:47.519 first one you'll likely almost late into will be the 590 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:51.319 the uh, you know, the polygamy and the underage children, 591 00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:54.359 uh you know, you know, underage wives. I guess you 592 00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:58.799 could say, which that plays a part, you know, particularly 593 00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:03.279 in how they're are colored in the public, in the 594 00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.839 the view of the public, and how it kind of 595 00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:09.159 paints it in people's some heads too, in a sense 596 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:12.480 of a legally, I guess you could almost say, I 597 00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:14.519 guess maybe not even that's not even the right word 598 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:16.480 I'm looking for. But it's like to some people, I 599 00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:19.000 think they see it or for justifying the situation. A 600 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:21.599 lot of people see this as is somehow this builds 601 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:25.280 into the line of justification to reach the ultimate crescendo 602 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:27.480 of this. Say so I'm like, oh, well he had childwives, 603 00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:29.800 and it's like, well, does that mean you should kill 604 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:33.239 him in his child lives? Like, I don't know, I mean, 605 00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:35.039 maybe it was just him. You might have some sort 606 00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:37.679 of argument here, but but when when you kill the 607 00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:41.320 victims too, it's a different story. So yeah, if you're 608 00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:44.320 supposedly sticking up for some you know, victims here, well, 609 00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:46.400 I mean maybe trying not to kill the victims as well. 610 00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:49.039 But anyways, it passed it enough to you to tell 611 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.119 us a little bit more about just kind of how 612 00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:53.800 the Davidians, uh, how they went about, how they behaved, 613 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:57.079 what kind of weird weird things that we should know. 614 00:34:57.199 --> 00:34:58.599 And these are a lot of these things are things 615 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:00.599 we already know that were you know, thrown around in 616 00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:02.480 the media to paint them in a negative light. 617 00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:08.559 Yep, exactly. And again you know, clearly they're a splinter 618 00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:12.159 group of the Seventh day Adventists. But David Koresh himself 619 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.639 was believed to be the Lamb all right, meaning that 620 00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:18.920 he would precede the second coming of Christ, as told 621 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.400 in the Book of Revelation. And in addition to being 622 00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:26.280 the group's spiritual leader, he assumed the burden of sex 623 00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:29.800 for the male Davidians, meaning that he and only he 624 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:33.400 was allowed to sleep with female members, obviously, and it 625 00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:38.599 didn't stop there either, when Koresh took multiple wives himself, 626 00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:42.719 practicing polygamy even as young as fourteen years old. And 627 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:48.119 I heard allegations of twelve, but nothing ever corroborated enough 628 00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:53.199 to kind of like make that concrete judgment. But this 629 00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:58.440 was technically under Texas law. It was technically legal as 630 00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:00.679 far as the fourteen year old, which is terrible to 631 00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:05.159 say because obviously this is blatantly immoral in my mind. 632 00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:08.519 But you know these. 633 00:36:09.400 --> 00:36:12.480 Comment real quick once again, you know to that point, 634 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:16.559 even if it was illegal, this doesn't change anything. It 635 00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:20.000 means just about any anything here whatsoever. Even if this 636 00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:24.320 was illegal, even though they actually had legitimate legal pretenses 637 00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:28.679 to operate to for an arrest, that no way justifies 638 00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:31.119 this entire situation at all, which obviously we'll get into 639 00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:33.800 when we get into the actual weight to the actual 640 00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.079 rate itself in the ways it probably could have been avoided. 641 00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:39.360 But that's getting ahead of ourselves. So back to where 642 00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:42.000 we were with the with all the child sex or 643 00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:44.000 all the child wives and stuff. 644 00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:49.039 Right, So obviously this was partly used to justify the 645 00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.679 atf success excessive tactics during the siege, which you mentioned, 646 00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:57.239 and and the former member that I had brought up before, 647 00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:03.480 David Thibodeaux, he's one of this Rivers who obviously one 648 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:07.000 of only nine who survived the fiery finale to the 649 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:11.239 siege on April nineteenth, when asked point blank, at least 650 00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:14.920 the siege begin man, it's just When asked point blank 651 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.719 about the form of polygamy practiced by the group, in 652 00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:22.840 an article for Reason Magazine, David Thibodeau says, as far 653 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:26.679 as the sexuality is concerned, David didn't have sex just 654 00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:31.480 to have sex. He always had a goal, a focus, 655 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.719 and that was to have kids. He wanted to have 656 00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:39.360 as many kids as possible. A lot of people forget that, 657 00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:42.599 that's just they just say, there's this guy all these 658 00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:45.480 stupid people followed him, and he just wanted to have sex, 659 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:47.880 and that was it. I can think of one hundred 660 00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:50.360 million better ways to do it. A lot of people 661 00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:52.679 have a wife and then mistresses, and they hide it 662 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.559 and cover it up. David was very open about what 663 00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:58.360 he was doing because he believed it was a scriptural thing. 664 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:02.679 This is according to Thibodeaux, who is justifying it in 665 00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.480 these terms, and it was a very complicated thing. But 666 00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:09.880 the plan all fit together. He says, I never understood 667 00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:13.239 how so many women could live together under those circumstances. 668 00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:16.840 It's a mystery of God. Let me tell you, how 669 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:19.599 could all these guys hang out, let that happen and 670 00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:25.199 not do anything. Then he's asked by the reason journalist 671 00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:30.400 conducting the interview, didn't the guys get upset? You were single? 672 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:33.920 But for the other guys it was their wives crush 673 00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:37.719 was sleeping with. And Thibodeau says, of course, Steve Schnyder 674 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:40.679 was very upset often about it. But at the same time, 675 00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:43.239 he had spent six months trying to rip David apart 676 00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:46.039 to prove him wrong before he joined the group, So 677 00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:49.480 did Paul Fada. They worked together trying to prove the 678 00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:53.039 message wrong. They couldn't do it, so they said he 679 00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:56.880 has the truth. So at that point they fell into 680 00:38:56.920 --> 00:39:02.280 line David Thibodeau's asked, they believed it was the message 681 00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:05.679 of God, that it was for this higher purpose, and 682 00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:08.000 that they were in the inner circle of the anointed. 683 00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:12.679 One think about that they would sacrifice everything to be 684 00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:15.320 with this person and to have some part in the 685 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:20.400 fulfillment of this eternal plan. That something the world wouldn't understand. 686 00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:25.119 They might be wiped out for it, but eternally they 687 00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:29.880 will have great position. It's a pretty amazing dynamic. They 688 00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:34.960 believed that Koresh was the next spirit Messiah, the prophet, 689 00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:37.440 who would come to fulfill this part of the truth. 690 00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:40.320 They would stand with him and come back to set 691 00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:44.079 up the kingdom here on earth. Thibodeau was given the 692 00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:46.519 opportunity to explain these beliefs a bit more, and he 693 00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:49.800 was interviewed in the Dallas Observer, and he says the 694 00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:53.880 media has gotten lots of things wrong. He never considered 695 00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:57.199 himself a Branch Davidian. He says, the first time he 696 00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:01.599 ever heard that term was on TV, which I found strange. 697 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:07.480 He also never considered Koresh the messiah. Thibodeau says he 698 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:10.440 believed Koresh was a prophet, but the people in the 699 00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:14.920 compound weren't worshiping Koresh. He considered Koresh a friend, but 700 00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:18.480 he wasn't blind to his flaws. Koresh was married to 701 00:40:18.519 --> 00:40:22.960 several women, some obviously very young. Husbands and fathers gave 702 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.480 away their wives and daughters to be with him. Who 703 00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:30.239 would father twelve children with his wives. Koresh certainly was 704 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:34.440 guilty of something, right, I mean, it seems he was either, 705 00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:40.480 as Thibodeau says here, a polygamist, or guilty of statutory rape. 706 00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:47.000 Probably both depends on how you look at it. You 707 00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:50.079 have to look at it the legality, Thibodeau says. The 708 00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:52.480 bottom line is, at the time, and I don't know 709 00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:55.639 what the law is now, a marriage with parental consent 710 00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:58.800 was fourteen, and that doesn't make it right at all, 711 00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:02.800 he says, But but that was his that was his 712 00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.159 vision and perspective. As being a member of the group, 713 00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:11.079 you know, it's it's very strange, but it's something that 714 00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:15.159 obviously you have a little bit more detail on and 715 00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:20.360 you understand at least the justification that was being kind 716 00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:21.719 of portrayed to members of the. 717 00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:25.440 Group, which is speaking of justification, I mean, I guess, 718 00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:27.880 let me know if you have specifically more on the 719 00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:29.280 bio of the group. But I thought it sounded like 720 00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:31.239 me like you were. I didn't really thought. I thought 721 00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:33.320 you were right your end there, you got there basically okay, 722 00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:35.679 all right, because you started a night start as I 723 00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:37.199 was like, wait, crap, I thought you were. You came 724 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.000 to a natural pause. I came a little a little 725 00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:43.039 too early. But anyways, speaking of justifications, I mean that 726 00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:45.880 he I mean, obviously we've kind of talked about David Koresh, 727 00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:48.480 the the the da Vidians and kind of their beliefs 728 00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:50.400 and the things he was you know, obviously the polygamy, 729 00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:53.719 the the child wives. But as we as we've kind 730 00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:56.199 of said those were legal, so those aren't I mean, 731 00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:58.480 I guess now then you can say, oh, you know, 732 00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:01.159 it's kind of the the old I forget the mobster, 733 00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:03.960 but the one they took down for tax tax evasion, 734 00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:05.639 and so it's it's kind of the idea of like, 735 00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:08.639 well maybe the idea here is like, well, you know, 736 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:11.000 if you want to go off those things, well we 737 00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.000 got to find a crime uh, and so the crime 738 00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:17.000 here was, if I recall quickly, something along the lines 739 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:19.440 of weapons, because they were obviously we're done with the ATF, 740 00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:22.960 so we have believe the the The claim was something 741 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.960 like they may have been able to been manufacturing weapons 742 00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:30.360 into automatic and essentially illegal in some form or another. 743 00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:33.880 Now I will say on this specific thing, I believe 744 00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:36.800 in a I think this is gonna be I'm gonna 745 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:38.840 mess up her name, but the book is Blowback, and 746 00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:42.280 her person name is Margaret. I can whatever anyways she 747 00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:44.159 there's gonna be book coming out soon. I want to say, 748 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:46.239 there's gonna be something more in there that's gonna tie 749 00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:50.199 in pat con to that. So anyway, it's point beings 750 00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:52.239 I think there might be more to the pretense coming 751 00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:56.039 soon to some revealed information. But either way, that the 752 00:42:56.079 --> 00:43:00.159 pretense we were given, you know, before this, before this 753 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:03.000 new information might be coming in an upcoming book, is 754 00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:06.400 that it was it was it was the guns. So 755 00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:08.000 it was it was the guns. And this is the 756 00:43:08.599 --> 00:43:12.400 kind of flimsy start of it. So with that, I 757 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:15.119 guess we should probably go into a chronological I mean, 758 00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:16.920 I guess the best place to probably start to be 759 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:20.039 the before the actual so the the you know, now, 760 00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:22.519 as I mentioned, you know that now they're looking, they're 761 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:24.920 trying to hem somebody up. Now the the justification you're 762 00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:27.920 being guns so they do end up sending. I mean, 763 00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:29.880 if you want to start before this, feel free to 764 00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:31.599 let me know. But obviously, probably I think probably the 765 00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:34.039 best in my opinion, maybe one of the better spots 766 00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:36.960 spots to start obviously would be where they start throwing 767 00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.360 in a and you kind of down the road some 768 00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:43.519 FEDS that move in type deal, having undercover feds kind 769 00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:46.159 of keep an eye on the group and making friends. 770 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:48.159 I mean, that might be the better place to start. 771 00:43:48.360 --> 00:43:50.880 If you have this other spot you'd rather start, you 772 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:52.599 think it's a better place to you let me know, 773 00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:55.159 but go ahead, floors yours. 774 00:43:55.239 --> 00:44:01.480 Yeah, I know. Obviously, in February twenty eighth, ninety three, 775 00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:05.280 just six days or six months, I mean after the siege, right, 776 00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:10.880 more than eighty agents from the BATF. I'm talking about 777 00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:13.639 the Ruby Ridge siege, right, and the siege at Ruby Ridge, 778 00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:16.679 That's what I intended to say. But February twenty eight 779 00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:19.960 to ninety three, just six months after the siege, that's 780 00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:23.239 when the eighty agents from the BATF planned the sudden 781 00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:25.519 daylight raid in order to serve the search warrant for 782 00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:28.719 the compound as well as the arrest warrant for Koresh four, 783 00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:34.400 potentially violating federal firearms regulations. That was the motivation. Of course, 784 00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:38.320 the search warrant was obtained due to suspicion of modifying 785 00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:41.119 the weapons to have automatic fire capability because of a 786 00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:44.920 claim that Koresh had purchased these kits with M sixteen 787 00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:49.719 lower receiver parts and the ATF allegations were that David 788 00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:54.440 could have been combining M sixteen trigger components with a 789 00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:59.039 modified AR fifteen lower receiver, which is, according to ATF regulations, 790 00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:03.199 constructive posi ession of an unregistered machine gun without paying 791 00:45:03.239 --> 00:45:06.239 the two hundred dollars tax for legality. It's fucking ruby 792 00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:10.559 Ridge man, you know what I'm saying, And like bullshit 793 00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:11.280 two hundred. 794 00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:13.719 Dollars tax, show me the person, I'll find you a crime. 795 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:18.239 One hundred and by the way, what's I mean? A 796 00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:20.760 lot of green Berets were going through some strange things 797 00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:24.159 that became scandalous and historical history, you know, in recent 798 00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:28.760 historical you know that that's as far as uh, yeah, 799 00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:31.920 there's a point that that all all the attempt real quick. 800 00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:33.840 I want to back real quick. I just wanted to 801 00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:35.480 give someone their due. I couldn't think of their name 802 00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:38.519 a second. It's Margaret Roberts. That's the name. I couldn't 803 00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:40.000 remember the last name. I looked it up real quick 804 00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:42.159 because I felt shitty. So Margaret Roberts. She has an 805 00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:45.239 upcoming book called Blowback. She should be coming out in July, 806 00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:46.719 so keep an eye on that. That's going to be 807 00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:49.000 focused on more about the local and city bombing and 808 00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:50.920 how that ties in the FBI. So I think what 809 00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:53.440 I'm referencing to is pat Con type stuff, which pat 810 00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:57.000 Con is kind of, you know, the fed connective tissue 811 00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:00.400 between you know, all these probably really going all the 812 00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:03.280 way back to like Waco, maybe even before maybe me 813 00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:06.480 and Ruby Ridge possibly, uh you know, and then all 814 00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:08.760 the way up to like fast and Furious Obama era. 815 00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:12.079 So yeah, so that's a but that's what I'm referencing to. 816 00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:15.199 It looks like there there are lots of implications that 817 00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:19.079 there were pat Con elements to Waco, do Ruby Ridge. 818 00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:23.039 So yeah, I mean these are these are from statements 819 00:46:23.079 --> 00:46:24.239 from yeah, but go. 820 00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:27.559 On, oh no, I'm just like, yeah, you're you're you're 821 00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:31.000 exactly right. I'm chopping at the bit only because you're 822 00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:34.559 so you're so accurate, And that's good meaning, it's just 823 00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.880 you already know man, that Jesse Trinda did the work, 824 00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:40.519 you know. And and the fact of the matter is 825 00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:44.800 that he he had been told right by by the 826 00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:50.719 uh what was it the Matthews. Yeah, yeah, And and 827 00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:54.280 basically he got that phone call right and and he's 828 00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:58.519 he's told that I've been seeing what's being posted on 829 00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:01.400 the internet from your foil suits with the FBI. He 830 00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:05.039 tells Trinidoo, you have all the pieces, but you just 831 00:47:05.079 --> 00:47:09.760 haven't put them together. And Trinidu said, what do you mean? 832 00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:12.920 And he said, well, you just don't see the picture. 833 00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:15.719 And so he came to see him and directed him 834 00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:18.599 to Newsweek magazine and to some other reporters. He had 835 00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:21.320 been one of the top undercover operatives for the FBI 836 00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:24.840 and Pat Cohn for almost ten years. He had infiltrated 837 00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:28.840 some twenty three groups. He started out believing that it 838 00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:32.800 was the right thing. He wasn't you know. So many 839 00:47:32.840 --> 00:47:35.280 of these informants are people who are caught in the 840 00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:37.840 act of committing a crime and are forced to go 841 00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:42.519 undercover for the FBI. He did it voluntarily because he 842 00:47:42.559 --> 00:47:45.639 thought these hate groups, what they described to him as 843 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:50.559 hate groups, were dangerous. In hindsight, he said, looking back 844 00:47:50.599 --> 00:47:53.599 on it, he sees now that the agenda. The agenda 845 00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:57.599 was to infiltrate and incite the militia movement, the right 846 00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:01.960 wing Christian movement to violence, so that the Justice Department 847 00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:06.079 could crush them. He said that Ruby Ridge was a 848 00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:10.039 pat Con operation. He said that Waco was a pat 849 00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:15.320 Con operation. He believed that Oklahoma City was, but he 850 00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:18.039 wasn't involved in it. But he did say that other 851 00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:20.679 members of the pat Con group were involved in the 852 00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:24.599 Oklahoma City bombing. Like that is just so crazy, right. 853 00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:28.039 Yeah, he spotted a what he spotted, uh, Andreas Strasmeyer 854 00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:32.079 with McVeigh at dl I. So yeah, Texas Light Infantry 855 00:48:32.119 --> 00:48:33.480 in San Saba, Texas. 856 00:48:33.559 --> 00:48:37.440 Yeah, that's so crazy to me. But it is just 857 00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:41.960 the reality of this, you know, and anyway, the environment 858 00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:45.679 at the time, total information awareness, this was a goal. 859 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:48.800 Oh oh yeah, and he asked sorry, he asked. An 860 00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:52.679 email exchange with Matthews and his handler Don Jarted, he 861 00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:55.320 mentioned I believe he was talking about the Venans, Aarian movement. 862 00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:56.880 They were talking about that, which is kind of a 863 00:48:56.960 --> 00:48:59.599 known front in the past. I believe that I want 864 00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:01.320 to say, was that one they were referencing, and then 865 00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:05.159 they said something about the God why can't think of 866 00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:08.239 their name right now? The not the Aloheim Band, the 867 00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:10.880 Helloeim bandits guy, the Halloween guys. Why can you think 868 00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:12.440 of their name right now? Uh? 869 00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:13.039 Fuck? 870 00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:16.199 The group of them. There was the a R, the ARH, 871 00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:18.639 the the group the bank robbers that were kind of 872 00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:21.280 sort of situated out of the out of Ellowheem city. 873 00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:25.079 Uh the uh that he said that that was a 874 00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:27.679 front in that in that email one that he says, oh, yeah, 875 00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:29.320 that one's a front two type and he said I 876 00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:30.960 remember if you asked him, like, oh what about that 877 00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:32.760 one or whatever. But essentially Don Jered in the kind 878 00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:35.719 of like a passing comment essentially confirmed that, yes, the 879 00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:37.920 AAR was the front of some sort And you're like, 880 00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:41.199 WHOA So obviously, I mean, I don't know who obviously 881 00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:44.519 if I had to guess, Uh, probably McCarthy out of 882 00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:46.199 the group, if I had to guess. But I mean, really, 883 00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:47.880 it's like any one of those people could have been 884 00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:50.840 an informant. But anyways, I digress just I mean, obviously 885 00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:52.960 we could get lost in all the you know, the pointing, 886 00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:55.320 all the different glowing, the glowing nodes. 887 00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:03.239 Yeah, I know, I was just h yeah, just Trinity 888 00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:07.639 to himself. He's just such a such such a valuable resource, right, 889 00:50:07.719 --> 00:50:13.280 But anyway, I just knowing, Yeah, first of all, just 890 00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:16.800 the motivation for for the initial serving of the warrant. 891 00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:20.239 But but then of course the original the original investigation 892 00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:23.239 as well. You know, it's it's it's interesting because that 893 00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:27.119 began in ninety two when the ATF became concerned over 894 00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:31.159 these reports of automatic gunfire allegedly coming from the Mount 895 00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:35.800 Carmel Center, which really raised a lot of red flags 896 00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:39.199 from me, Like that was truly, what are you you? 897 00:50:39.400 --> 00:50:42.880 Truly it almost seemed like the Randy Weaver justification. Oh, 898 00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:45.639 he had a pissy neighbor who fucking hated him and 899 00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:48.159 wrote all these crazy letters saying he was going to 900 00:50:48.199 --> 00:50:51.800 assassinate and put you know, these these authorities and officials 901 00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:54.960 in the government and the pope or some shit and it, 902 00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:59.800 which is just crazy and and but you know, on 903 00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:02.360 a man reflecting back, and this is of course just 904 00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:05.199 kind of a gut reaction to it. It kind of 905 00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:08.960 glows in general, and it smells very, very at the 906 00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:12.760 very least, like something worth prying into at a deeper level. 907 00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:16.719 And because but again, this is just kind of an 908 00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:19.320 inclination that I have just from from here. 909 00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:22.280 You know, look how vague they kind of leave the 910 00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:24.679 justifications when it comes to Wager. But you look at 911 00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:26.840 other things like Riby Ridge. We know, we know, we 912 00:51:26.920 --> 00:51:29.599 know the justifications, but it's like, why there's this kind 913 00:51:29.639 --> 00:51:32.679 of this fog when you look into like the justifications 914 00:51:32.679 --> 00:51:34.840 for Waco, You're like, what are you not telling us? 915 00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:38.719 What wi little what little beast putting information's hidden in 916 00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:41.400 the in the probably FBI, you know, somewhere. 917 00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:44.239 Absolutely so. And by the way, why is Colonel Bogritz 918 00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:46.679 Like he shows up everywhere at this time, former Green 919 00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:49.519 Break commander and he's like training the Afghan Mujahadeen and 920 00:51:49.599 --> 00:51:51.239 domestic black sites in the US. 921 00:51:52.239 --> 00:51:54.039 Wasn't he grits in Jonestown too? 922 00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:54.320 Or no? 923 00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:57.639 Yeah, okay, he's one talking about Johnstown being a cover 924 00:51:57.880 --> 00:51:59.880 up and how it was basically they took all the 925 00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:04.559 MK ultra loose sins and throw them in Jonson's ship. 926 00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:07.239 That's why the stacking bodies happened. Yeah, that was both 927 00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:09.679 that said that both said that, Yeah, he said he 928 00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.199 was informed by Green Break. Yeah. 929 00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:12.440 I know. 930 00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:16.440 Again, it's like almost like Ted Gunderson type where it's 931 00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:19.679 like they glow. They glow in many ways, but still 932 00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:22.599 it's also, how do you not when you're a former 933 00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:25.760 official who is like blowing the whistle, you know, attempting 934 00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:29.559 to expose and investigate these things, You're always going to glow. 935 00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:32.239 You're a former fed you know, I mean, I don't know. 936 00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:36.800 It's yeah, it's just a difficult. Sorry, it's hard going 937 00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:37.800 to trust you whole lot. 938 00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:39.559 Yep. 939 00:52:40.119 --> 00:52:41.960 I'll take what you have to say. If you give 940 00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:45.599 me an excruciate, excruciating detail that seems to corroborate so 941 00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:48.800 much of what I already know, then damn I might 942 00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:50.800 have to at least mention it. You know what I'm saying. 943 00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:53.000 And that's I mean, that's how you have to really 944 00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:56.119 behave at this point and take it for what it is. 945 00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:59.519 But it's like I am beginning to kind of view anyway, 946 00:52:59.559 --> 00:53:01.280 I won't get too far ahead of myself, will get 947 00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:04.320 into really the crux of the issue here, but I 948 00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:08.039 am saying that I will say that reflecting back. Yeah, 949 00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:12.079 I'm beginning to view this entirely just much differently that 950 00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:13.920 I feel like this could potentially be a much more 951 00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:17.440 of a layered operation than I had, you know, yeah, 952 00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:25.159 just considered, you know previously. But so anyway, the point 953 00:53:25.239 --> 00:53:30.199 being here is that you have this this strange, you know, 954 00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:34.599 report of gunfire automatic gunfire coming from the Center, which 955 00:53:34.719 --> 00:53:37.920 launched the original investigation in ninety two by the ATF. 956 00:53:38.519 --> 00:53:43.400 Now consider the fact that obviously, you know, the ATF, 957 00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:46.679 they are very much looking for a press opportunity at 958 00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:51.480 this moment. Right and during the congressional inquiry following the 959 00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:56.679 ATF siege of the Branch Davidian Complex, Henry Ruth, one 960 00:53:56.760 --> 00:53:59.559 of the three independent reviewers from the US Treasury Department, 961 00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:04.320 he had testified that the ATF needed good publicity with 962 00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:08.519 its appropriations hearings a week away. A successful raid this 963 00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:12.360 size would produce major positive headlines to counter the ATF's 964 00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:17.360 reputation as a rogue agency whose debacles blackened the reputations 965 00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:20.840 of other agencies, and it would scare the public enough 966 00:54:21.400 --> 00:54:25.199 about fringe groups to create political pressure on Congress to 967 00:54:25.239 --> 00:54:28.559 increase its budget. So you also have to consider, obviously, 968 00:54:28.679 --> 00:54:36.920 the new incoming administration. Apparently this operation had had basically 969 00:54:37.639 --> 00:54:41.079 already been staged in many ways prior to the Clinton's 970 00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:44.320 taking office and assuming office, But the ATF was vying 971 00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:46.760 for funding at the time as well, and so they're 972 00:54:46.840 --> 00:54:50.880 looking for press opportunities to prove their their worth. And 973 00:54:53.079 --> 00:54:57.239 the siege of the Branch Davidian complex I think accomplished 974 00:54:57.760 --> 00:55:01.119 again layered objectives that were very very necessary at the time, 975 00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:03.639 and the timing of it as well was very I 976 00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:08.960 think strategic. But we'll get into like a small wrinkle 977 00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:11.960 at the end of the conversation. I think it's very worthwhile. 978 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:16.800 But anyway, so you have again right, remember the fact 979 00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:21.079 the constructive possession of the unregistered machine gun without paying 980 00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:24.320 the tax, the two hundred dollars tax for legality, and 981 00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:29.159 also none of that being proven. And the Davidians were 982 00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:33.880 obviously known for partly supporting themselves by trading at gun shows, 983 00:55:34.599 --> 00:55:37.800 always having the relevant paperwork. Even one of the members, 984 00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:41.840 Paul Fada, was a licensed federal firearms dealer operating a 985 00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:45.840 retail gun business called the mag Bag. So it's like this, 986 00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:50.000 this was a known lucrative avenue of right of profit 987 00:55:50.119 --> 00:55:53.960 from the group itself and the branch Davidians. So it's 988 00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:57.159 in no way strange for the time either in the 989 00:55:57.280 --> 00:55:59.679 area either you know what I mean. And so considering 990 00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:01.360 those two things, you. 991 00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:04.519 Know, did we mention the drug thing yet or no, 992 00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:09.039 I forget I did mention just briefly I mentioned. Okay, 993 00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:10.559 I must have missed that in passing. Okay, I just 994 00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:12.360 want to make sure we emphasize that, because that was 995 00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:16.719 so far as justifications, and if I recall correctly, they 996 00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:21.760 needed a drug a drug component in order to get 997 00:56:21.880 --> 00:56:25.559 some other part of I forget what specifically one of 998 00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:29.119 your recalls physically needed to for that. Why the drugs 999 00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:30.880 were so essential to be there being some sort of 1000 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:33.440 drug component there. I think it had something to do 1001 00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:35.559 with the no NAC no knock side of it, doesn't 1002 00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:38.679 it at the raid to justify a raid because like, oh, 1003 00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:41.320 you can say they had drugs, so theoretically they could 1004 00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:42.840 be flushing some shit or something. 1005 00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:46.239 Oh, yeah, you're totally right. I haven't yet. 1006 00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:48.599 I haven't, okay, because I was like, there was a 1007 00:56:48.679 --> 00:56:49.800 time where I was like I felt like we should 1008 00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:51.559 have covered that. So I was like, okay, cool, sorry, Yeah, 1009 00:56:51.880 --> 00:56:54.159 I just make sure I wasn't repeating something you already said, 1010 00:56:54.199 --> 00:56:54.559 I'm like I. 1011 00:56:54.679 --> 00:56:59.719 Should have right, no, but yeah, you're absolutely right. That 1012 00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:02.760 was that was a major part in how they justified 1013 00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:05.960 really getting access to this warrant in the first place, 1014 00:57:06.039 --> 00:57:08.559 which allowed the no knock to take place. And that 1015 00:57:08.760 --> 00:57:13.280 is but obviously, as I had mentioned, though, you have 1016 00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:17.880 this ATF agent David Aguilera, which we have to at 1017 00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:22.719 least mention him before we offer up this this justification 1018 00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:26.440 because you know, there's there's a key prominent role that's 1019 00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:30.159 being played here. Because Aguilera and Agent Skinner visited one 1020 00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:34.159 of the Branch Davidians gun dealers, Henry McMahon, who tried 1021 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:36.000 to get them to talk to Koresh on the phone. 1022 00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:40.719 Koresh offered to let ATF inspect the Branch Davidians as 1023 00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:43.119 far as their weapons and paperwork, and even asked to 1024 00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:47.280 speak to Agent Aguilera, but he declined, and so the 1025 00:57:47.599 --> 00:57:53.119 Waco Tribune Herald reported the sheriff harwell, he explained that 1026 00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:57.159 regarding law enforcement talking with Koresh, just go out there 1027 00:57:57.199 --> 00:58:01.400 and talk to them. What's wrong with notify them. That's 1028 00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:04.400 what he's telling the authorities, and that's the sheriff, right, 1029 00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:08.119 And instead the ATF would use the affidavit filed by 1030 00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:12.039 Special Agent David Aguilera to obtain the warrants that led 1031 00:58:12.039 --> 00:58:15.199 to the Waco siege, even admitting in the affidavit that 1032 00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:19.880 neither the noise complaints nor the items ordered were necessarily illegal, 1033 00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:25.519 which is another part of this that very much proves 1034 00:58:25.559 --> 00:58:28.440 the fact that this was a violation, you know, of 1035 00:58:29.199 --> 00:58:31.480 the rights of the Davidians in the first place, and 1036 00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:33.440 entirely unjustified. 1037 00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:35.880 But once again, I go back to there's just something 1038 00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:38.000 weird that I feel like there's a murky area where 1039 00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:40.079 we just don't really know and there should be. There's 1040 00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:43.199 just something more, you'd think, And it's almost as if 1041 00:58:43.320 --> 00:58:45.880 like maybe something somewhere went just a little bit awry. 1042 00:58:46.119 --> 00:58:49.000 Obviously this whole thing went awry, and they're like, oh shit, 1043 00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:51.000 so maybe we can't roll this out in the narrative 1044 00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:53.840 game like we thought we could. All Right, we'll kind 1045 00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:58.000 of throw a few vague sort of implications of legal things, 1046 00:58:58.079 --> 00:58:59.440 you know what I mean, Because I mean this is 1047 00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:01.519 kind of a hot pods of different things thrown together, 1048 00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:05.280 no real legal pretense at all that gives it there's 1049 00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:09.360 any good, any credibility, you know, this is it's pretty pathetic, 1050 00:59:10.079 --> 00:59:12.519 which but I mean not to I mean, I guess 1051 00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:14.559 maybe that could really be all there is, but just 1052 00:59:14.639 --> 00:59:17.440 makes you feel like there's something else, which the implication 1053 00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:21.159 would be something in connection to an informant of some sort, 1054 00:59:21.239 --> 00:59:23.599 you know what I mean. Like that's like like, is 1055 00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:25.599 there some sort of element in there, some sort of 1056 00:59:25.639 --> 00:59:28.719 informant that introduced a criminal element And then now you're like, 1057 00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:31.559 oh crap, something about this you don't feel you can't 1058 00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:34.239 disclose now, and that's why you didn't. But it was 1059 00:59:34.519 --> 00:59:37.360 always intended on that being the case. And then obviously 1060 00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:40.519 it wanted to do a very different way. I don't know, 1061 00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:43.679 you know, obviously maybe now it looks improper to be like, oh, yeah, 1062 00:59:43.760 --> 00:59:45.559 this guy and you're like, oh, well, you kind of 1063 00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:48.159 kill them all, So maybe don't say this guy was 1064 00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:50.199 really an informant the whole time or whatever. 1065 00:59:50.599 --> 00:59:57.039 Yeah. Yeah, And by the way, there is there are 1066 00:59:57.159 --> 01:00:01.880 two former CIA officials who claim that David Koresh has 1067 01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:04.519 a CIA background, But we'll get into that in a 1068 01:00:04.599 --> 01:00:08.320 little while. Okay, so everybody calmed out. I swear I 1069 01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:13.039 reflecting back on this entirely different approach, as much as 1070 01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:15.920 I don't as much as the result and the conclusion 1071 01:00:16.039 --> 01:00:20.519 remains the same, you know, because it truly does philosophically, 1072 01:00:21.320 --> 01:00:28.199 principally obviously you know, the consequential outcome. The result alone 1073 01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:31.840 is the ultimate example of what your government is capable of, 1074 01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:35.079 and the breach and violation of fundamental basic rights and 1075 01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:40.639 human individual sovereignty, I mean, in every way. So none 1076 01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:44.719 of that changes, but there are definitely additional layers that 1077 01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:47.719 we should be willing to acknowledge and consider as at 1078 01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:52.199 least being plausible or potentially viable, or just being complete 1079 01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:54.559 and total nonsense, but at least acknowledging the fact that 1080 01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:58.679 the theory exists. I mean, it's important, but the level 1081 01:00:58.719 --> 01:01:04.840 of detail, that's what gives me pause. So but before 1082 01:01:04.920 --> 01:01:07.960 we get into any of that, I think it's it's 1083 01:01:08.039 --> 01:01:12.559 important to continue on with laying out really the injustice 1084 01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:17.400 that we're witnessing. It took place here, and because again 1085 01:01:17.519 --> 01:01:21.159 none of this was necessarily illegal, and the Davidians were 1086 01:01:21.239 --> 01:01:24.360 known for being very cordial with everyone in the surrounding community, 1087 01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:28.199 seemingly held in high regard by most people, including the 1088 01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:31.599 local sheriff, which I had mentioned before, and they were 1089 01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:35.000 known for having daily devotionals studying the scripture for over 1090 01:01:35.079 --> 01:01:38.159 eight hours at a time, and by every account they 1091 01:01:38.239 --> 01:01:41.239 barely even drank, except for at most a couple of 1092 01:01:41.320 --> 01:01:44.079 beers at a get together every few months, but no 1093 01:01:44.239 --> 01:01:48.039 more than three, said former member David Thibodeau. But before 1094 01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:51.000 the ATF could follow through with the search warrant, they 1095 01:01:51.079 --> 01:01:56.559 needed to prove an operational drug nexus Jose in order 1096 01:01:56.639 --> 01:02:01.400 to obtain military assets for the raid that would crucial 1097 01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:08.559 aspect of the drug nexus, So the ATF's investigation primarily 1098 01:02:08.639 --> 01:02:12.760 focused on firearms up until this point, but in a 1099 01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:16.119 nineteen ninety nine report to the Secretary of Defense, the 1100 01:02:16.159 --> 01:02:20.599 Attorney General and the Secretary of the Treasury titled Military 1101 01:02:20.679 --> 01:02:25.519 Assistants provided a branch Davidian incident, and the ATF made 1102 01:02:25.519 --> 01:02:30.559 a claim that Koresh was possibly operating a methamphetamine lab, 1103 01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:34.039 requesting assistance from the DEA in the United States Department 1104 01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:37.360 of Defense, citing a drug connection based on a recent 1105 01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:43.760 delivery to the compound of chemicals, instruments, and glassware, as 1106 01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:48.960 well as National Guard overflights thermal images showing a supposed 1107 01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:53.599 hot spot inside the compound, possibly indicating a methan fetamine laboratory, 1108 01:02:54.119 --> 01:02:54.960 that's what they're claiming. 1109 01:02:55.119 --> 01:03:02.400 Probably just their wood furnace. Probably it is me if 1110 01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:05.199 I recall correctly, It wasn't the only bit of precedence, 1111 01:03:05.239 --> 01:03:07.800 that the only bit of credibility there was to this 1112 01:03:08.199 --> 01:03:10.400 was that there I guess there was some sort. 1113 01:03:10.239 --> 01:03:14.440 Of meth something before the property. Yes, there he was 1114 01:03:14.519 --> 01:03:20.719 the sun the Rodent's son that was, you know, overlooked 1115 01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:23.599 as the prophet, right he was, he was out there, 1116 01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:26.239 but they killed his ass by the way. But oh yeah, 1117 01:03:26.320 --> 01:03:28.360 that's a crazy story. Oh my god. 1118 01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:29.880 Yeah, they got they got. 1119 01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:33.159 Caught up for a murder which I didn't even realize 1120 01:03:33.320 --> 01:03:37.239 was like a huge factor that played out with with 1121 01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:39.920 David Koresh and and how he kind of took over 1122 01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:45.320 and had this this crazy dispute with the original Rodent son. 1123 01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:49.960 Uh and yeah, it's it's super crazy. I'm trying to 1124 01:03:50.039 --> 01:03:53.360 remember all the details there because and he's fucking murdered. 1125 01:03:53.960 --> 01:03:56.760 Yeah yeah, yeah, here we go, here we go. Because 1126 01:03:57.559 --> 01:04:00.800 they after the trial basically because there were a few 1127 01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:04.280 conspirator co conspirators with Koresh that were on trial for 1128 01:04:04.360 --> 01:04:09.800 the murder of this guy, and it was all basically 1129 01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:14.280 Lois Rodin died right the woman that had groomed David Koresh, 1130 01:04:14.719 --> 01:04:18.000 and she died in November of eighty six, and so 1131 01:04:18.519 --> 01:04:22.159 a probate of her estate. In January eighty seven, Hawell 1132 01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:25.719 attempted to gain control of Mount Carmel Center by force. 1133 01:04:27.119 --> 01:04:31.360 So George Roden had dug up the casket. It sounds 1134 01:04:31.400 --> 01:04:34.639 like they're doing occult rituals or some shit. Dude, They're 1135 01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:38.960 these digging up bodies. It's so crazy. So the Sun 1136 01:04:39.079 --> 01:04:42.639 George Roden digs up the casket of Anna Hughes from 1137 01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:48.039 the Davidian Cemetery and had challenged how David Koresh Vernon 1138 01:04:48.119 --> 01:04:53.719 Wayne Howe to a resurrection contest to prove who was 1139 01:04:53.800 --> 01:04:57.519 the rightful heir to the leadership. So this is the 1140 01:04:57.599 --> 01:05:02.280 funniest thing, ever, because how I'm and uh correct for that. 1141 01:05:03.880 --> 01:05:05.960 That's what they'd say that he was he was cooking 1142 01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:09.000 meth out there, he was tripping, and that he was 1143 01:05:09.159 --> 01:05:11.159 just yeah, tweaking his balls out. 1144 01:05:11.239 --> 01:05:13.559 He could have, but like David can do it, I'm 1145 01:05:13.599 --> 01:05:18.159 gonna it's possible, but it's staying up late at night 1146 01:05:18.280 --> 01:05:20.880 just methan out, Like I'm gonna learn to be close. 1147 01:05:20.639 --> 01:05:25.159 To God dead body, you know, dud fucking crazy. But 1148 01:05:25.719 --> 01:05:28.239 I remember when I discovered that part of this, this 1149 01:05:28.360 --> 01:05:32.199 whole background, it did it like gave it made me 1150 01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:36.159 sit there for a moment and and really just consider fitting. 1151 01:05:37.719 --> 01:05:38.119 What the. 1152 01:05:39.679 --> 01:05:44.000 It's nuts. But so this is the funniest part because 1153 01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:48.840 David really just plays this dude. It's it's honestly, it's amazing. 1154 01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:53.000 So it turns out that that uh and by the way, 1155 01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:57.119 obviously there was this division that had considered the fact 1156 01:05:57.159 --> 01:06:00.199 that prior to this that the split was very much 1157 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:03.119 there was a huge fracture in the group. So there 1158 01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:07.760 was a leading the basically George Roden was leading the competition, 1159 01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:13.559 and apparently George Roden ran Howell and his followers off 1160 01:06:13.599 --> 01:06:15.719 of Mount Carmel at gunpoint. So that's how all of 1161 01:06:15.800 --> 01:06:18.920 this began, and Howl and his group relocated to none 1162 01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:27.000 other than Palestine, Texas anyway. So it's crazy because after 1163 01:06:27.079 --> 01:06:29.159 he digs up George Roden digs up the casket of 1164 01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:33.480 Vanna Hughes from the Davidian Cemetery and challenges Vernon Howell 1165 01:06:33.559 --> 01:06:39.840 to this to this resurrection contest, Hal went to the 1166 01:06:39.920 --> 01:06:43.599 police and claims that Rodin was guilty of corpse abuse, 1167 01:06:44.360 --> 01:06:47.960 how fucking funny. But the county prosecutors refused to file 1168 01:06:48.119 --> 01:06:52.400 charges without proof. So this is when he takes it 1169 01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:56.880 upon himself to get the evidence required. So this is 1170 01:06:56.920 --> 01:06:59.840 where I start to go, was this really happening? George? 1171 01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:02.480 And get set the fuck up? I mean, I don't 1172 01:07:02.519 --> 01:07:03.000 know who. 1173 01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:04.719 Knows, all right, Like what are you dropping a fucking 1174 01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:06.719 corpse at the fuck you? How do you prove that 1175 01:07:06.800 --> 01:07:08.360 other than like here's the corpse and you're like, well, 1176 01:07:08.360 --> 01:07:09.320 now it looks like you did it. 1177 01:07:11.559 --> 01:07:14.559 So this is how it plays out. So November third, 1178 01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:19.000 nineteen eighty seven, Howl and seven armed companions. Companions tried 1179 01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:22.639 to get into the Mount Carmel chapel, intending to photograph 1180 01:07:22.719 --> 01:07:26.960 the body in the casket as incriminating evidence. So Rodin 1181 01:07:27.119 --> 01:07:31.079 was informed of the interlopers an open fire, So we 1182 01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:35.599 have a firefight taking place Mount Carmel. The Sheriff's department 1183 01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:39.480 responded in twenty minutes into the gunfight and during which 1184 01:07:39.599 --> 01:07:43.840 Rodin had been wounded. So we have Sheriff Harwell, he 1185 01:07:43.960 --> 01:07:47.519 gets Howl on the phone, who tells him and then 1186 01:07:47.679 --> 01:07:50.800 obviously tells Vernon Hall to stop shooting and to surrender. 1187 01:07:51.320 --> 01:07:55.320 Howl and his companions, dubbed the Rodinville eight by the media. 1188 01:07:56.880 --> 01:07:59.840 We're tried for attempted murder. On April twelfth, nineteen eighty eight. 1189 01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:04.960 Seven were acquitted and the jury hung on Hal's verdict. 1190 01:08:06.159 --> 01:08:10.599 The county prosecutors did not press the case further. It 1191 01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:13.880 sounds very weird, right, like this guy straight up murdered him. 1192 01:08:14.199 --> 01:08:16.079 And so even with all the effort to bring the 1193 01:08:16.159 --> 01:08:18.560 casket to court, the standing judge refused to use it 1194 01:08:18.640 --> 01:08:22.119 as evidence for the case, and Judge Herman Fitz ruled 1195 01:08:22.159 --> 01:08:25.039 that the courtroom is no place for a casket. When 1196 01:08:25.119 --> 01:08:28.119 defense attorney Gary Kocher requested it be used as evidence 1197 01:08:28.199 --> 01:08:31.520 for the case, eight men, including six of the defendants, 1198 01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:33.880 forced to carry the casket away from the courthouse and 1199 01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:37.000 down the street to a van awaiting the body. In 1200 01:08:37.119 --> 01:08:41.239 response to questions about the body, Rodin admitted to attempting 1201 01:08:41.279 --> 01:08:46.119 to resurrect Hughes on three occasions. So that wasn't an acknowledgement. 1202 01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:53.479 That's crazy to bring him back from the dead. Oh wow, 1203 01:08:54.039 --> 01:08:59.720 all right, well I fucked up Rodin. Okay, Oh dude, 1204 01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:02.560 this is the part that was so yeah, yeah, my. 1205 01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:05.600 Bad, my beat. So they didn't actually kill him. He 1206 01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:08.119 didn't actually die of the wounds that he that he 1207 01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:13.840 sustained during the firefight. That was just from memory that 1208 01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:16.640 I was remembering that one. But I had thought that 1209 01:09:16.720 --> 01:09:20.279 he died. But here's why, because it was while he 1210 01:09:20.359 --> 01:09:23.399 was waiting for trial that he's Rodent's put in jail 1211 01:09:23.479 --> 01:09:26.239 right under contemptive court charges because of his use of 1212 01:09:26.359 --> 01:09:31.039 foul language. So he's, yeah, charged with contemptive court. So 1213 01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:36.119 he threatened the Texas court with sexually transmitted diseases if 1214 01:09:36.199 --> 01:09:43.520 the court ruled in Howell's favor. Yeah, So alongside these charges, 1215 01:09:43.640 --> 01:09:46.279 Rodin was jailed for six months for legal motions he 1216 01:09:46.399 --> 01:09:50.079 filed with explicit language. He faced ninety days in jail 1217 01:09:50.159 --> 01:09:52.880 for living on the property after being ordered to neither 1218 01:09:53.000 --> 01:09:55.239 live on the property nor call himself the leader of 1219 01:09:55.279 --> 01:09:58.359 the religious group in the seventy nine case. And soon 1220 01:09:58.399 --> 01:10:01.840 after the trial, several of How's followers moved from their 1221 01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:05.600 headquarters in Palestine, Texas, back to Mount Carmel in the compound. 1222 01:10:06.239 --> 01:10:08.680 And it was in mid eighty nine when Rodin used 1223 01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:12.119 an axe to kill a Davidian named Wayman Dale eight 1224 01:10:12.359 --> 01:10:15.840 Yeah a dare Yeah, yeah, who visited him to discuss 1225 01:10:15.920 --> 01:10:21.600 Adair's alleged vision of being God's chosen Messiah. Hummm, he 1226 01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:22.479 was found a bunch. 1227 01:10:22.399 --> 01:10:24.119 Of people over here to think they're Massias. We got 1228 01:10:24.159 --> 01:10:26.560 like a Messiah frigging King of the hill going on. 1229 01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:30.399 I'm telling you. He's found guilty under an insanity defense 1230 01:10:30.560 --> 01:10:32.199 and was committed to a mental hospital. 1231 01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:37.079 Another dude was found guilty. Uh okay rod In. 1232 01:10:37.199 --> 01:10:40.840 Okay, okay, because he uh used the axe to kill 1233 01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:42.880 this Davidian member name the other. 1234 01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:47.159 The guy he killed was another person making a Messiah claim. Essentially, yeah, yeah, 1235 01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:48.279 so it was. 1236 01:10:48.680 --> 01:10:51.199 It was an eighty nine. I know it sounds ridiculous, 1237 01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:53.279 but this is the background of Davidians. 1238 01:10:53.760 --> 01:10:56.119 Messiah is running around fucking fighting each other. 1239 01:10:56.840 --> 01:11:01.720 Right, So it was Rodin in mid eighty nine when 1240 01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:07.239 Davidian Wayman Dale Adair visited him to discuss Adair's alleged 1241 01:11:07.319 --> 01:11:11.279 vision of being God's chosen Messiah. And and that is 1242 01:11:11.359 --> 01:11:19.840 when Rodin you are and then uses the insanity defense 1243 01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:26.720 gets committed to a mental hospital. And apparently just after 1244 01:11:26.800 --> 01:11:30.000 this takes place, Vernon Hall raised the money to pay 1245 01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:33.600 off all the back taxes on Mount Carmel owed by 1246 01:11:33.760 --> 01:11:36.239 Rodin and took legal control of the property. 1247 01:11:37.159 --> 01:11:39.720 I already have a good one liner after it kills him, 1248 01:11:40.279 --> 01:11:42.239 God called psych. 1249 01:11:43.680 --> 01:11:45.960 Oh my god, that's too funny, dude. 1250 01:11:47.840 --> 01:11:50.680 All right, yeah, that's ridiculous. That's quite the crazy. I 1251 01:11:50.720 --> 01:11:52.760 didn't even know how to like it, like he how 1252 01:11:52.800 --> 01:11:54.720 to fit that into my understanding. It is just an 1253 01:11:54.800 --> 01:11:57.920 odd little mm hmm. It's like after doing a puzzle 1254 01:11:57.920 --> 01:11:59.800 and you have this one weird ass piece it looks 1255 01:11:59.800 --> 01:12:01.680 like from a whole other different puzzle. You're like, what 1256 01:12:01.800 --> 01:12:04.039 is this doing here? You're like, no, this is for 1257 01:12:04.159 --> 01:12:08.359 this puzzle, Like I don't think it is. Okay, right, 1258 01:12:09.039 --> 01:12:12.159 that's what you would think, man. But uh yeah, look 1259 01:12:12.239 --> 01:12:18.159 up a picture of George Roden, George Buchanan Rodin. He uh, 1260 01:12:19.199 --> 01:12:22.640 he doesn't look quite like I. I I definitely don't 1261 01:12:22.680 --> 01:12:25.560 see him as like just some tweaker out there, you know, 1262 01:12:26.159 --> 01:12:27.840 George R. O. D e In. 1263 01:12:28.880 --> 01:12:31.079 Yeah, yeah, George Roden R O. 1264 01:12:31.279 --> 01:12:34.239 D e En, George Buchanan Rodin images. 1265 01:12:36.640 --> 01:12:40.840 I mean, I mean even just the Wikipedia of George 1266 01:12:40.920 --> 01:12:43.239 Roden is just like strange. 1267 01:12:43.399 --> 01:12:44.640 Would you know this guy right here? 1268 01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:46.079 Yeah? Yeah, that's the dude. 1269 01:12:46.600 --> 01:12:50.479 What the hell, dude, that's freaking uh that's a country 1270 01:12:50.560 --> 01:12:56.199 music singer. What's his name? That looks like the dude 1271 01:12:56.199 --> 01:12:57.680 who's like, yeah, the serial killer guy. 1272 01:12:59.600 --> 01:13:01.680 I mean Tobe Keith or something. 1273 01:13:01.880 --> 01:13:04.479 No, it's not Tobe Keith. Why can't they they give it? 1274 01:13:05.199 --> 01:13:07.039 I know it is like my dad was a big 1275 01:13:07.119 --> 01:13:08.880 fan of his grown up it wasn't all of his music. 1276 01:13:09.760 --> 01:13:12.680 God could not whatever. I'll think of it later and 1277 01:13:12.720 --> 01:13:15.520 when it doesn't fucking matter, crazy inappropriate to bring it up, 1278 01:13:17.279 --> 01:13:18.039 It's okay. 1279 01:13:18.439 --> 01:13:25.039 But yeah, he made it to apparently December eighth, nineteen eight, 1280 01:13:25.239 --> 01:13:28.079 ninety eight, so he ended up living for a good 1281 01:13:28.640 --> 01:13:30.840 I don't know what five years after when is it 1282 01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:31.479 ninety three? 1283 01:13:31.880 --> 01:13:33.399 I feel like he would have been a cool messiah. 1284 01:13:33.439 --> 01:13:34.880 He looked like he would have been a cool messiah. 1285 01:13:36.840 --> 01:13:40.000 But anyways, let's move on from whatever the hell that is. 1286 01:13:41.680 --> 01:13:45.399 But yeah, see even his Wikipedia here says in nineteen 1287 01:13:45.439 --> 01:13:48.159 eighty seven, he was evicted from the Malcrmel Center near Waco, 1288 01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:51.920 Texas by his rival David Koresh. He was later confined 1289 01:13:51.920 --> 01:13:54.600 in a Texas mental hospital for a nineteen eighty nine 1290 01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:58.199 murder until his own death in nineteen ninety eight. So 1291 01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:01.439 that that is the back round of how David Koresh 1292 01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:04.479 gained access to the property at Mount Carmel, which is 1293 01:14:05.359 --> 01:14:08.760 really kind of a hilarious story. And to be honest, 1294 01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:14.840 as much as Garth Brooks, that's the one man, by 1295 01:14:14.840 --> 01:14:15.319 the way. 1296 01:14:15.279 --> 01:14:18.640 To be clear, for any if there's any any any 1297 01:14:19.479 --> 01:14:21.359 legal stuff going on, it was I wasn't saying he 1298 01:14:21.520 --> 01:14:23.319 is zero. I'm saying that's the thing out there. But 1299 01:14:23.439 --> 01:14:27.199 let's all anyways, I guess, uh, let's get back into 1300 01:14:27.279 --> 01:14:28.960 where where were we at? I don't know if there's 1301 01:14:29.039 --> 01:14:31.439 more to dwell on here. That's wild. I don't know 1302 01:14:31.479 --> 01:14:32.000 what to do with that. 1303 01:14:32.199 --> 01:14:34.239 Yeah, really, honestly, was that in the wild? 1304 01:14:34.359 --> 01:14:39.079 Category didn't move on for sure? That was that I 1305 01:14:39.199 --> 01:14:41.359 didn't even like string together conspiracy theories. 1306 01:14:41.560 --> 01:14:44.880 I'm just like, okay, I'm telling you. That's why I didn't. 1307 01:14:45.720 --> 01:14:47.720 That's a major reason why I didn't put that story 1308 01:14:47.800 --> 01:14:51.920 in the original episode. I did on this because it 1309 01:14:52.039 --> 01:14:54.760 was like, how can I make this tangent like seamlessly 1310 01:14:54.920 --> 01:14:58.159 a part of the conceptual outline of this narrative. It's 1311 01:14:58.279 --> 01:15:05.199 basically a very possible task. But anyway, so you also 1312 01:15:05.399 --> 01:15:09.439 have to understand that you know, understanding like really just 1313 01:15:10.159 --> 01:15:12.960 the reality of I was mentioning how the local sheriff 1314 01:15:13.039 --> 01:15:18.640 and and all the just locals surrounding the branch Davidians. 1315 01:15:18.680 --> 01:15:22.199 They were claiming that, right, they were all effectively cordial 1316 01:15:22.279 --> 01:15:26.079 and essentially you know, very well to do and and 1317 01:15:27.720 --> 01:15:30.960 you know, I would say, just functional members of society 1318 01:15:31.039 --> 01:15:32.880 at the time, right, and as far as the local 1319 01:15:32.920 --> 01:15:35.960 community was concerned, they weren't really considered by the local 1320 01:15:36.039 --> 01:15:39.359 community to be like these outsiders and weird psychos or 1321 01:15:39.880 --> 01:15:42.520 at least to any real extent. That wasn't the narrative 1322 01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:48.479 surrounding them in any way. But you know, beyond that, 1323 01:15:49.239 --> 01:15:53.960 obviously you had this this strange what we had left 1324 01:15:54.079 --> 01:15:58.319 off kind of spotlighting was the reality of the the 1325 01:15:58.439 --> 01:16:03.800 ATF claim of the methamphetamine laboratory potentially possibly was the 1326 01:16:03.880 --> 01:16:09.479 term they used being operated by Koresh, which allowed them 1327 01:16:09.600 --> 01:16:12.600 to request the assistance from the DEA and US Department 1328 01:16:12.680 --> 01:16:17.600 of Defense for the drug connection for for essentially you 1329 01:16:17.680 --> 01:16:24.560 know what became you know, just military, right. I mean, 1330 01:16:24.640 --> 01:16:26.880 you look at it's just like Ruby Ridge. It looks 1331 01:16:26.920 --> 01:16:31.880 like they have this this base of operations that's straight 1332 01:16:31.960 --> 01:16:34.960 up you know, in in you know, some sort of 1333 01:16:35.560 --> 01:16:40.239 it is absolutely Joint Task Force yeah, it's an extraordinary 1334 01:16:40.319 --> 01:16:42.760 thing to witness. Honestly, man, Oh, I have like a 1335 01:16:42.920 --> 01:16:45.199 very small clip we could play that would would kind 1336 01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:48.479 of like introduce that to and like get a view 1337 01:16:49.199 --> 01:16:53.239 of the branch Davidians and in the the only footage 1338 01:16:53.239 --> 01:16:57.399 of them during during the time, which is really interesting. 1339 01:16:57.560 --> 01:17:01.119 And there's also a child who's like asking the sheriff, like, 1340 01:17:01.239 --> 01:17:02.840 you're not going to come in and kill us, right, 1341 01:17:02.920 --> 01:17:07.479 I didn't even know that that existed, but yeah, here, 1342 01:17:07.640 --> 01:17:09.720 I'll show it to you real quick, let me pull 1343 01:17:09.800 --> 01:17:10.199 it up. 1344 01:17:11.439 --> 01:17:13.319 But they didn't take a time to I didn't. I 1345 01:17:13.319 --> 01:17:16.439 don't think I really emphasized. I mean, you mentioned it earlier, 1346 01:17:16.479 --> 01:17:17.720 but I just this is one of those one of 1347 01:17:17.760 --> 01:17:20.199 these I felt like we should emphasize the idea that 1348 01:17:20.399 --> 01:17:24.000 David did multiple times tell multiple people within his congregation 1349 01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:28.279 claims that they were going to be essentially the federal 1350 01:17:28.359 --> 01:17:32.840 government or something, you know, tanks, helicopters, whatever. So I 1351 01:17:32.960 --> 01:17:35.960 just think that's worthwhile. Obviously, you can say he predicted it, 1352 01:17:36.359 --> 01:17:38.560 or you can say there's something more to it. I 1353 01:17:38.640 --> 01:17:39.399 don't know either way. 1354 01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:45.159 Obviously, the timing, which is just so extraordinary to me, 1355 01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:48.439 you know, like not only did he predict exactly what 1356 01:17:48.479 --> 01:17:51.880 would happen with the timing, so obviously the Rules of Engagement, 1357 01:17:51.960 --> 01:17:55.199 which which was you know, published and produced in ninety seven. 1358 01:17:56.199 --> 01:17:59.079 The first couple of minutes of this, it's really an 1359 01:17:59.199 --> 01:18:04.039 extraordinary introduction to just the people themselves, you know, and 1360 01:18:04.199 --> 01:18:17.840 and and it's it's it's a fascinating couple of minutes. Uh. 1361 01:18:18.399 --> 01:18:20.199 Actually, I don't think we can. This is totally gonna 1362 01:18:20.199 --> 01:18:20.920 get the copyright. 1363 01:18:20.960 --> 01:18:21.640 I just think about it. 1364 01:18:21.680 --> 01:18:25.000 It's totally gonna get the copyright. Things I really wanted 1365 01:18:25.039 --> 01:18:26.399 to be just I don't know what the rules are 1366 01:18:26.439 --> 01:18:28.359 on copyright, but uh, I mean because it. 1367 01:18:28.399 --> 01:18:30.760 Was a I mean especially because the show the beginning 1368 01:18:31.119 --> 01:18:34.720 copyright huh we think that alone would copyright us just 1369 01:18:34.840 --> 01:18:35.840 from me showing that for a. 1370 01:18:35.920 --> 01:18:38.560 Moment, how long we talk, because I think it's something 1371 01:18:38.600 --> 01:18:39.159 like I was just. 1372 01:18:39.199 --> 01:18:42.520 Gonna show like two minutes, honestly, just because I wanted, like, yeah. 1373 01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:44.720 We'll play screw it. Worst case scenario, it gets taken 1374 01:18:44.760 --> 01:18:46.520 down and I got our movie later. I think we 1375 01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:49.319 should be fine, screw it, play it. I think so, yeah, 1376 01:18:49.359 --> 01:18:52.279 I don't know the copyright rus plus I think likely 1377 01:18:52.319 --> 01:18:54.479 I just take down demonetization but especially if you can 1378 01:18:54.520 --> 01:18:56.840 fast forward plast the past, the beginning parts where it's 1379 01:18:56.880 --> 01:18:59.159 not just film stuff. But I'm assuming you're showing some 1380 01:18:59.239 --> 01:19:01.479 sort of clip. But let's go ahead and you can 1381 01:19:01.520 --> 01:19:03.479 play it. Let's go and play it. Screw it, risk 1382 01:19:03.560 --> 01:19:04.239 it for the biscuit. 1383 01:19:15.560 --> 01:19:18.159 So the fifth of the fifth of State is the 1384 01:19:18.279 --> 01:19:21.520 CBC though, right, So, I honestly it's. 1385 01:19:29.840 --> 01:19:30.119 David. 1386 01:19:30.520 --> 01:19:33.039 He believes that you're fixing to hit it at No, 1387 01:19:33.319 --> 01:19:34.720 we are not fixing to hit you. 1388 01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:36.439 That is not true. 1389 01:19:37.239 --> 01:19:40.279 Nobody's coming in there. Okay, you got my word. 1390 01:19:40.359 --> 01:19:41.039 It's solid. 1391 01:19:41.319 --> 01:19:47.319 It's negotiations. Okay, atf negotiation tape February twenty eighth, nineteen 1392 01:19:47.359 --> 01:19:50.239 ninety three. I know, I know that everybody's kittish, but 1393 01:19:50.960 --> 01:19:52.680 you know, we just got to work on the kids. 1394 01:19:52.880 --> 01:20:05.000 Yeah wait, I. 1395 01:20:09.520 --> 01:20:10.920 Was crazy, honey. 1396 01:20:11.239 --> 01:20:13.920 Reason What was the date on that again? Was that? 1397 01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:16.560 Real quick? What was the date on one that that 1398 01:20:16.680 --> 01:20:17.119 tape was? 1399 01:20:20.039 --> 01:20:20.239 It was? 1400 01:20:20.479 --> 01:20:22.479 It was nobody. 1401 01:20:23.680 --> 01:20:28.720 Nobody's coming in there. Okay, you go station until February twenty. 1402 01:20:29.720 --> 01:20:33.199 Okay, Okay, I know I know that everybody's skittish. 1403 01:20:32.840 --> 01:20:36.159 But remember remember fifteenth right day siege, right, yeah, so 1404 01:20:36.239 --> 01:20:57.319 this is right after the initial Yeah wait what, no, honey, 1405 01:20:57.439 --> 01:21:06.279 no reason charm so crazy? No, I never heard the 1406 01:21:06.319 --> 01:21:15.119 hostage negotiator talking to the child before. Yeah, that footage 1407 01:21:15.199 --> 01:21:20.359 is pretty extraordinary, man, I know. I actually do have 1408 01:21:20.920 --> 01:21:23.199 a clip from the nine to one one call from 1409 01:21:23.279 --> 01:21:27.560 David questioned, I privately clear God to bring out of 1410 01:21:27.560 --> 01:21:30.880 a situation if we do our part as his servants. 1411 01:21:31.920 --> 01:21:35.079 The government does their part as whoever they are in 1412 01:21:35.159 --> 01:21:38.119 the plan of God. What is it that God plans 1413 01:21:38.239 --> 01:21:40.000 to bring out of it? That's the way they thought, 1414 01:21:46.159 --> 01:21:47.520 all right, we're probably pushing it for copper. 1415 01:21:47.640 --> 01:21:48.760 Is there anything more pertinent here? 1416 01:21:48.840 --> 01:21:51.680 Is that all of that, there's a just like a 1417 01:21:51.800 --> 01:21:54.720 couple extra statements that are made that are awesome. But 1418 01:21:55.000 --> 01:21:58.920 again it's like, I don't want to push away my bad. 1419 01:21:59.199 --> 01:21:59.800 I would have waited. 1420 01:21:59.800 --> 01:22:02.880 I just thought that was all okay, there's just a 1421 01:22:02.960 --> 01:22:07.600 couple more minutes, and I, well, actually, dude, we played 1422 01:22:07.640 --> 01:22:09.560 it anyway, we might as well, because it actually just 1423 01:22:09.760 --> 01:22:13.279 does show footage of the victims that before they actually died, 1424 01:22:13.439 --> 01:22:15.800 and I didn't get to actually see the the the 1425 01:22:16.119 --> 01:22:19.319 black family, and then I can actually, uh, yeah, go. 1426 01:22:19.399 --> 01:22:20.720 For it, I thought, I thought. For the reason I 1427 01:22:20.720 --> 01:22:21.880 thought it was that was done already. 1428 01:22:21.960 --> 01:22:26.680 So it does slow roll though just for a moment 1429 01:22:26.800 --> 01:22:34.079 with the intro there. Obviously, we never went in. We 1430 01:22:34.239 --> 01:22:36.680 did not introduce fire to this compound. It was not 1431 01:22:36.840 --> 01:22:40.039 our intention that this compound be burned down. I can't 1432 01:22:40.079 --> 01:22:42.359 tell you the shock and the horror that all of 1433 01:22:42.439 --> 01:22:45.600 us felt when we saw those flames coming out there. 1434 01:22:46.119 --> 01:22:48.920 It was, oh my god, they're killing themselves. Listen to 1435 01:22:49.039 --> 01:22:53.359 that statement, that's fascinating. 1436 01:22:55.720 --> 01:23:00.760 Doesn't jump to making decisions before they heard our Right now, 1437 01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:03.199 all you're hearing is the crack. You're very, very. 1438 01:23:03.119 --> 01:23:05.439 Impressed that God read your Bible. 1439 01:23:05.640 --> 01:23:06.520 Know what you're talking about? 1440 01:23:06.560 --> 01:23:07.760 What are you doing with your life? 1441 01:23:07.840 --> 01:23:09.880 What do you do every day with your life because 1442 01:23:10.000 --> 01:23:13.479 something got approved of? I mean, before you judge, make 1443 01:23:13.560 --> 01:23:15.680 sure your own life is clean, you know. 1444 01:23:15.760 --> 01:23:17.039 I mean we're being. 1445 01:23:19.439 --> 01:23:24.439 There's one more group that we believe that this thing 1446 01:23:24.680 --> 01:23:27.279 had to be brought to a logical conclusion at some point. 1447 01:23:28.399 --> 01:23:30.039 We never fired one single way. 1448 01:23:30.079 --> 01:23:33.079 I think as long as we every so often comment, 1449 01:23:33.119 --> 01:23:36.439 I think we're okay. This something to do with like 1450 01:23:36.560 --> 01:23:44.199 a commentary allows unless someone's life was in danger. 1451 01:23:50.399 --> 01:23:53.000 What was that guy's wolves of engagement? But they would 1452 01:23:53.039 --> 01:23:59.279 not shoot unless someone's life was in danger. That's basically it. 1453 01:23:59.800 --> 01:24:04.479 There is obviously the one Black family. But yeah, it's 1454 01:24:05.000 --> 01:24:08.199 a couple more minutes longer than I wanted to actually share. 1455 01:24:08.319 --> 01:24:12.720 So it's cool, no worries. But really, the main clip 1456 01:24:12.800 --> 01:24:16.039 that I wanted to expose to everyone was the clip 1457 01:24:17.159 --> 01:24:20.680 of the nine one one call, right, because that alone. 1458 01:24:21.119 --> 01:24:24.479 The initial the initial koresh. 1459 01:24:25.840 --> 01:24:29.560 Yeah, yeah, exactly, because that really did blow my mind. 1460 01:24:29.960 --> 01:24:34.119 I was unaware. Oh my god, sorry, I just started 1461 01:24:34.159 --> 01:24:36.439 playing it right away when I pulled it up. But 1462 01:24:37.239 --> 01:24:39.279 let me see if I can present this, because it's 1463 01:24:39.319 --> 01:24:44.640 actually just uh, I don't know if I can, damn it. 1464 01:24:44.800 --> 01:24:46.319 Can I send this to you? Let me see if 1465 01:24:46.359 --> 01:24:46.640 I can. 1466 01:24:47.840 --> 01:24:48.079 Sure. 1467 01:24:48.199 --> 01:24:50.279 Yeah, we don't have to show this. 1468 01:24:51.079 --> 01:24:53.399 It probably won't work out really right right now, So 1469 01:24:53.439 --> 01:24:54.720 I mean, if you, if you want, if you're able 1470 01:24:54.760 --> 01:24:57.520 to do it while you're we're doing this, but you 1471 01:24:57.680 --> 01:24:58.800 just say, I don't. 1472 01:24:58.720 --> 01:25:03.199 Build, like, yeah, it's essentially on media. Your browsers has 1473 01:25:03.279 --> 01:25:08.399 blocked your screen. Okay, fucking eh, all right, it's cool. 1474 01:25:08.840 --> 01:25:10.880 We don't have to, but it really is, like if 1475 01:25:10.920 --> 01:25:14.399 anybody does want to. I did make the clip a 1476 01:25:14.520 --> 01:25:16.920 part of my episode originally and. 1477 01:25:17.319 --> 01:25:19.720 At the beginning of the episode, if ever call correctly. 1478 01:25:19.920 --> 01:25:24.319 Yep, Yeah, pretty much introduce it from the beginning, because 1479 01:25:25.520 --> 01:25:27.720 first of all, he starts off by saying, we knew 1480 01:25:27.760 --> 01:25:30.680 you were coming in everything you know, which which that 1481 01:25:30.800 --> 01:25:36.239 alone obviously is worth mentioning. And this was a thirty 1482 01:25:36.279 --> 01:25:40.119 minute tape played for members of the House Appropriation Subcommittee 1483 01:25:40.159 --> 01:25:42.479 probing the siege, right, So that's when it was kind 1484 01:25:42.479 --> 01:25:47.880 of more made public, and it was Yeah, June tenth, 1485 01:25:48.000 --> 01:25:53.159 ninety three the Post they claimed that two months after 1486 01:25:53.239 --> 01:25:56.520 the siege, Koresh called nine one one when raid began. 1487 01:25:56.920 --> 01:25:59.479 A dramatic nine to one one tape of conversation between 1488 01:25:59.520 --> 01:26:03.079 branch and leader David Koresh and local sheriff's deputies, recorded 1489 01:26:03.119 --> 01:26:06.800 in the early moments of an armed confrontation in February, 1490 01:26:07.039 --> 01:26:10.760 reveals that Koresh knew in advance that federal agents planned 1491 01:26:10.800 --> 01:26:15.800 to storm the Coltswaco compound, and Koresh said he knew 1492 01:26:15.840 --> 01:26:18.920 the identity of an undercover agent who had set up 1493 01:26:19.000 --> 01:26:22.920 residents near the compound and infiltrated the group. This tape 1494 01:26:23.399 --> 01:26:26.640 renewed questions about one of the most violent incidents in 1495 01:26:26.840 --> 01:26:30.680 US law enforcement history and the decisions made by the 1496 01:26:30.720 --> 01:26:35.920 ATF in planning for the failed raid, So top ATF 1497 01:26:36.000 --> 01:26:39.680 officials obviously claimed that agents were instructed to abort the 1498 01:26:39.760 --> 01:26:43.319 raid if the element of surprise was lost, and four 1499 01:26:43.399 --> 01:26:47.279 ATF agents died in the February twenty eighth firefight. Fifty 1500 01:26:47.359 --> 01:26:52.680 one days later, more than eighty Davidians, including Koresh, obviously, 1501 01:26:52.880 --> 01:26:55.760 perished in the compound when it caught fire and burned 1502 01:26:55.800 --> 01:27:02.119 after the FBI injected tear gas inside. The tape tinged 1503 01:27:02.159 --> 01:27:04.880 with the sound of gunfire in the background, offers a 1504 01:27:05.000 --> 01:27:08.359 window into the chaos of the raids early minutes, and 1505 01:27:08.479 --> 01:27:12.560 that is when you know, you hear Wayne Martin also 1506 01:27:12.680 --> 01:27:15.359 called and he says, you know, and as well as 1507 01:27:15.439 --> 01:27:17.960 David Koresh said there are women and children in here, obviously, 1508 01:27:18.279 --> 01:27:22.199 and that was he then reiterated that later when obviously, 1509 01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:27.079 you know, the doors were blown apart and he was 1510 01:27:27.199 --> 01:27:33.800 shot back into the compound right property itself. But so 1511 01:27:34.520 --> 01:27:37.880 that alone, you know, it always it stems back to 1512 01:27:40.000 --> 01:27:45.199 just this unnecessary escalation right by the government that obviously 1513 01:27:45.520 --> 01:27:51.560 was in many ways, it was a layered operation that 1514 01:27:51.680 --> 01:27:55.119 achieved many objectives, but it facilitated the growth of the 1515 01:27:55.239 --> 01:27:59.399 state as well, and it facilitated that path of the 1516 01:27:59.479 --> 01:28:04.159 Dystopi nightmare, you know, and the violation of our inherent rights. 1517 01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:09.520 So that was an inherent example of the federal government's 1518 01:28:09.520 --> 01:28:14.720 abuse of power, right, And I mean, so you know, 1519 01:28:14.880 --> 01:28:17.760 talk about mishandling a conflict, you know what I mean. 1520 01:28:17.840 --> 01:28:21.640 And so sounds like that were probably right up until 1521 01:28:21.720 --> 01:28:24.159 the actual up into the moment of the starting of 1522 01:28:24.199 --> 01:28:26.119 the raid. I mean, maybe there's more that you want 1523 01:28:26.159 --> 01:28:28.000 to go into before we get into that, but it 1524 01:28:28.079 --> 01:28:31.000 sounds like we're finally through that fateful moment. Obviously, this 1525 01:28:31.079 --> 01:28:34.079 is a fifty one day standoff, but it started off 1526 01:28:34.119 --> 01:28:37.439 with an initial raid, if I recall correctly, I believe, 1527 01:28:37.520 --> 01:28:40.000 and maybe maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is the final 1528 01:28:40.239 --> 01:28:42.680 fateful No, I'm pretty sure I'm correct. This is the 1529 01:28:42.800 --> 01:28:45.399 the The initial rate is where they had the dog 1530 01:28:45.520 --> 01:28:50.000 killer crew that jumped out that started off the party 1531 01:28:50.239 --> 01:28:53.600 with that. The beginning of the party was started with 1532 01:28:53.720 --> 01:28:57.479 popping off some dogs that were in a cage that 1533 01:28:57.600 --> 01:29:01.600 we're doing nothing in Iran. Yeah, and then I think 1534 01:29:01.640 --> 01:29:03.920 when they shot the dogs, that's also what then spooked 1535 01:29:03.960 --> 01:29:06.560 off the other Feds to start shooting so it's FEDS 1536 01:29:06.600 --> 01:29:11.239 shooting Feds allegedly, and so that's theoretically so theoretically that 1537 01:29:11.520 --> 01:29:14.760 could be what started the whole firefight, is the FED 1538 01:29:14.840 --> 01:29:17.279 shooting the dogs and they were so fucking stupid that 1539 01:29:17.399 --> 01:29:20.199 when they shot the dogs, they scared themselves and started shooting. 1540 01:29:21.119 --> 01:29:24.720 So yeah, but with the level of special forces there, 1541 01:29:25.319 --> 01:29:28.239 there was a military presence at Waco that people are 1542 01:29:28.359 --> 01:29:33.359 unaware of. CIA whistleblower acknowledged the FATUCI. Yeah. 1543 01:29:33.439 --> 01:29:38.359 Man, hey, six years later it was revealed the Delta 1544 01:29:38.439 --> 01:29:42.640 Force was there and that this was potentially they were 1545 01:29:43.359 --> 01:29:51.920 Essentially they were training in how to deploy sophisticated techniques 1546 01:29:52.079 --> 01:29:55.560 and tactics on a domestic population in a compound in 1547 01:29:55.640 --> 01:30:01.039 the US, just saying, you know, when you're kind of 1548 01:30:01.520 --> 01:30:05.039 practicing over in Guyana as well and figuring out how 1549 01:30:05.079 --> 01:30:08.000 you can. Yeah, I mean it really it becomes like some. 1550 01:30:08.119 --> 01:30:12.399 Methods and procedures tried and true, sir, and how do 1551 01:30:12.479 --> 01:30:15.520 you try them? You get to try them. So here 1552 01:30:15.560 --> 01:30:19.000 you go, here's a perfect, perfect opportunity to kind of 1553 01:30:19.039 --> 01:30:22.079 a kind of a tryout methods, which they did, which 1554 01:30:22.079 --> 01:30:25.039 obviously we haven't laid out the siege, but obviously you know, 1555 01:30:25.079 --> 01:30:27.560 getting a little of ourselves there. We will get into 1556 01:30:27.800 --> 01:30:32.760 the different myriad of different methods that used to fuck 1557 01:30:32.800 --> 01:30:34.199 with these people in all different ways. 1558 01:30:34.279 --> 01:30:40.600 So but yeah, it resembles Project Jedi, you know, the 1559 01:30:40.720 --> 01:30:46.000 Phoenix tactics. It's like absolutely, it's crazy. But yeah, we'll 1560 01:30:46.000 --> 01:30:48.439 get into its psychological warfare. I mean, that's what they 1561 01:30:48.479 --> 01:30:51.359 were doing to these people and children. 1562 01:30:51.479 --> 01:30:51.640 Man. 1563 01:30:53.079 --> 01:30:57.199 But yeah, so the no Knock grade, right, it had 1564 01:30:57.279 --> 01:31:01.479 been and obviously remember they had even gone as far 1565 01:31:01.760 --> 01:31:07.760 as conducting these National Guard over flights of thermal images 1566 01:31:07.840 --> 01:31:13.000 that showed a supposed hotspot that the implication was indicating 1567 01:31:13.079 --> 01:31:16.399 a methamphetamine laboratory. So this is how they get the 1568 01:31:16.439 --> 01:31:20.439 military equipment, the military assets for the raid. That was 1569 01:31:20.479 --> 01:31:22.600 how they obtained it. And so this no Knock raid 1570 01:31:22.680 --> 01:31:25.920 had been planned from Monday, March first, but they were 1571 01:31:26.000 --> 01:31:28.479 forced to move it up by a day in response 1572 01:31:28.560 --> 01:31:31.479 to a series of articles the ATF had reportedly tried 1573 01:31:31.560 --> 01:31:34.640 to prevent from being published in the Waco Tribune Herald 1574 01:31:35.239 --> 01:31:40.359 called the Sinful Messiah as we just actually witnessed in 1575 01:31:40.479 --> 01:31:46.039 those first couple of minutes of what's the name of 1576 01:31:46.079 --> 01:31:49.760 that damn thing rules of engagement. Yeah, So the ATF 1577 01:31:49.920 --> 01:31:53.680 raid of the Branch Davidian compound dubbed code name Showtime 1578 01:31:54.680 --> 01:31:58.399 would officially begin on a gray, wet Sunday morning, February 1579 01:31:58.479 --> 01:32:01.880 twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three. So that is the day 1580 01:32:02.399 --> 01:32:06.920 that those those the hostage negotiation tapes. Apparently we're covering 1581 01:32:07.000 --> 01:32:12.800 with that child. So this is when the morning of 1582 01:32:12.960 --> 01:32:16.399 the twenty eighth of February, civilian trucks with black cattle 1583 01:32:16.439 --> 01:32:20.399 trailers filled with over seventy five agents brandishing fully automatic 1584 01:32:20.520 --> 01:32:24.720 weapons outfitted in swat style tactical gear arrived at Mount 1585 01:32:24.840 --> 01:32:30.479 Carmel ready for war, and the victims inside the house 1586 01:32:30.880 --> 01:32:35.479 described them as men in black, unidentifiable when coming towards you. 1587 01:32:36.800 --> 01:32:40.720 So again, this is the strategic reality of having your 1588 01:32:40.960 --> 01:32:44.760 FBI or ATF on the back where nobody knows who 1589 01:32:44.840 --> 01:32:47.560 you are. You're just mercenaries for as far as they know. 1590 01:32:48.159 --> 01:32:51.600 I mean, imagine what that looks like. Now, the backup 1591 01:32:51.680 --> 01:32:53.760 real quick, and now we're at the moment of the raid. 1592 01:32:53.840 --> 01:32:55.279 Now, I guess this would be kind of a good 1593 01:32:55.319 --> 01:32:57.560 time to look back and see were there anyways this 1594 01:32:57.680 --> 01:33:04.039 could be avoided? Now is exactly I mean, there was 1595 01:33:04.199 --> 01:33:06.880 this guy was was this guy that was this guy 1596 01:33:07.000 --> 01:33:10.840 hold up in his compound and you know, uncompletely unable 1597 01:33:10.920 --> 01:33:13.520 to be you know, arrested like a normal person. 1598 01:33:13.720 --> 01:33:17.159 Yeah, yeah, that's what they would have you believe. He's 1599 01:33:17.239 --> 01:33:21.960 he's this uh, this shut in, this hermit, that's some 1600 01:33:22.319 --> 01:33:28.600 cult psychopathic leader and and abusing children. Statistically, that that 1601 01:33:28.760 --> 01:33:32.399 is basically kind of what they had to h dangle 1602 01:33:32.520 --> 01:33:35.640 and into the public perception there for the you know, 1603 01:33:36.159 --> 01:33:38.880 the stay at home moms eating bond bonds all pissed 1604 01:33:38.920 --> 01:33:42.760 off because they you know, it was interrupting their their 1605 01:33:43.840 --> 01:33:46.720 whatever TV show they were watching at the time. But anyway, 1606 01:33:47.199 --> 01:33:50.359 so the point being that victims inside the house right then, 1607 01:33:50.520 --> 01:33:54.279 Oh yeah, but what you're you're mentioning as well, it 1608 01:33:54.439 --> 01:33:56.680 is important that we that we of course covered that 1609 01:33:56.760 --> 01:34:01.720 aspect of of kind of you know, not only the 1610 01:34:02.279 --> 01:34:07.000 justifications and how the raid was conducted, but also you know, 1611 01:34:07.079 --> 01:34:10.000 the group of undercover agents posing as college students who 1612 01:34:10.079 --> 01:34:12.159 moved into the house across the street from the Branch 1613 01:34:12.199 --> 01:34:17.479 Davidian compound with their rental cars giving them away. The 1614 01:34:17.560 --> 01:34:22.199 agents hosted a party to deflect suspicion, but it had 1615 01:34:22.239 --> 01:34:25.479 the opposite effect. Some of the Branch Davidians showed up 1616 01:34:25.520 --> 01:34:28.399 to the party and mingled with the group and reported 1617 01:34:28.479 --> 01:34:31.880 back to David Koresh that these were federal agents. For sure. 1618 01:34:32.239 --> 01:34:35.560 It's like, that's the funniest thing ever man and uh 1619 01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:40.119 so Waco David Koresh The Branch Davidians and a Legacy 1620 01:34:40.199 --> 01:34:45.760 of Rage published by Jeff Gwynn Right author, He claims 1621 01:34:46.319 --> 01:34:52.239 that basically another agent, Robert Rodriguez, which is you know, 1622 01:34:52.359 --> 01:34:55.199 really the most the most famous one out of all 1623 01:34:55.279 --> 01:34:59.479 of these uh these names, posed as a potential follower 1624 01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:03.359 to gain access to the group, and Koresh quickly pegged 1625 01:35:03.439 --> 01:35:05.960 him as a fed, but kept inviting him to Bible 1626 01:35:06.039 --> 01:35:11.199 study anyway. After all, as he reminded his followers, Jesus 1627 01:35:11.319 --> 01:35:15.800 had preached to a Roman centurion the day before the 1628 01:35:15.880 --> 01:35:19.960 Sunday morning raid. Treasury Department officials in Washington attempted to 1629 01:35:20.039 --> 01:35:23.720 call it off, concerned that it relied on unnecessary force. 1630 01:35:24.920 --> 01:35:27.439 Why couldn't Koresh be arrested when he was away from 1631 01:35:27.479 --> 01:35:31.880 the compound. But a plan, once in motion, has a 1632 01:35:32.000 --> 01:35:36.199 certain momentum, and the ATF, which had a Congressional budget 1633 01:35:36.279 --> 01:35:40.359 hearing approaching, was in need of a splashy successful operation 1634 01:35:41.399 --> 01:35:44.279 one atf agent was so confident that the mission would 1635 01:35:44.279 --> 01:35:47.039 be over in a few hours that he even booked 1636 01:35:47.039 --> 01:35:50.359 at tea time in Houston for Sunday afternoon. On the 1637 01:35:50.439 --> 01:35:56.439 morning of February twenty eighth, ninety three, Rodriguez, still ostensibly undercover, 1638 01:35:57.199 --> 01:36:01.199 listened as Koresh was tipped off that the raid was imminent. 1639 01:36:02.359 --> 01:36:05.520 Rodriguez rushed to report the news to his superiors, sure 1640 01:36:05.560 --> 01:36:09.239 that they would abort the mission since the plans obviously 1641 01:36:09.359 --> 01:36:13.640 relied on maintaining the element of surprise, But instead the 1642 01:36:13.760 --> 01:36:20.159 raid proceeded obviously disastrously. And so I you know, it 1643 01:36:20.239 --> 01:36:21.000 goes without. 1644 01:36:20.800 --> 01:36:23.359 Real quick to back up that what I was driving 1645 01:36:23.399 --> 01:36:25.840 at he if I recall correctly, there's a claim that 1646 01:36:25.880 --> 01:36:29.359 he supposedly went so far as the changing his changing 1647 01:36:29.439 --> 01:36:32.760 his route to to kind of give them an opportunity. 1648 01:36:32.880 --> 01:36:36.159 Yeah, I'm getting there. I'm getting there, Okay, Okay, So basically, 1649 01:36:37.920 --> 01:36:40.880 if the FEDS wanted to arrest David Koresh, obviously the 1650 01:36:40.960 --> 01:36:45.399 only person listed on the search and arrest warrants, they had, 1651 01:36:46.680 --> 01:36:52.199 what the fuck? I just had something flying to my ear. No, 1652 01:36:52.359 --> 01:36:58.960 but seriously, it's anyway, so obviously This was a manipulatively 1653 01:36:59.079 --> 01:37:03.399 obtained search and arrest warrant, and they had every opportunity 1654 01:37:03.439 --> 01:37:06.199 in the world to arrest him and apprehend him. And 1655 01:37:06.359 --> 01:37:10.159 so he had even patterned his jogging routine, as you said, 1656 01:37:10.680 --> 01:37:13.720 to conveniently pass in front of their undercover house and 1657 01:37:13.760 --> 01:37:17.039 an effort to provide them with exactly that opportunity. And 1658 01:37:17.159 --> 01:37:19.760 so all of the official claims of being unable to 1659 01:37:20.439 --> 01:37:25.479 apprehend him away from the property are patently absurd. There 1660 01:37:25.600 --> 01:37:28.680 was even an official investigative report issued by the Department 1661 01:37:28.760 --> 01:37:32.880 of the Treasury. This stated David Koresh and two undercover agents, 1662 01:37:33.000 --> 01:37:37.159 including Robert Rodriguez, which, by the way, Robert Rodriguez is 1663 01:37:37.520 --> 01:37:41.159 the name of that film director that right did the 1664 01:37:41.359 --> 01:37:44.560 did did the what was the name the Grindhouse series 1665 01:37:44.640 --> 01:37:48.760 with movies with Tarantino. Uh, but anyway, very good movies. 1666 01:37:49.359 --> 01:37:54.279 But so I always like made that strange connection whenever 1667 01:37:54.359 --> 01:37:57.399 I was covering this, just because I knew from Dust 1668 01:37:57.439 --> 01:38:00.279 till Dawn and should way you know, before where I 1669 01:38:00.399 --> 01:38:03.640 was like getting into the details of Waco. I always 1670 01:38:03.680 --> 01:38:08.399 thought that was funny. But it doesn't matter so anyway, 1671 01:38:09.159 --> 01:38:12.720 So the point of here is obviously that David Koresh, 1672 01:38:12.920 --> 01:38:16.600 and these two undercover agents, including Rodriguez, went about a 1673 01:38:16.680 --> 01:38:21.439 mile away off property and all of them shot firearms together. So, 1674 01:38:22.600 --> 01:38:27.199 I mean, the ultimate inevitable question clearly is why didn't 1675 01:38:27.239 --> 01:38:31.039 they arrest him? Then, undercover agent Robert Rodriguez had been 1676 01:38:31.159 --> 01:38:34.439 in the house at Mount Carmel on many occasions and 1677 01:38:34.520 --> 01:38:37.520 said that he saw no signs of illegal activity and 1678 01:38:37.600 --> 01:38:40.359 that they should call the raid off. So all of 1679 01:38:40.479 --> 01:38:46.479 that playing into the really just I mean the I mean, 1680 01:38:47.159 --> 01:38:50.279 really the suspect legality in the first place, of right 1681 01:38:50.439 --> 01:38:52.840 of a lot of these claims, and so the Treasury 1682 01:38:52.960 --> 01:38:57.359 report would document and confirm that. On the morning of 1683 01:38:57.399 --> 01:39:00.560 the twenty eighth, by eight am, the day of the raid, 1684 01:39:01.079 --> 01:39:04.199 agent Rodriguez went to the compound one final time for 1685 01:39:04.279 --> 01:39:08.560 the most critical phase of his undercover assignment, assessing whether 1686 01:39:08.640 --> 01:39:12.199 the Herald Tribune series of articles had incited Koresh and 1687 01:39:12.319 --> 01:39:14.640 his followers right to take up arms, Which is why 1688 01:39:14.680 --> 01:39:18.279 they had to move up the raid for a day, 1689 01:39:18.359 --> 01:39:22.039 because the ATF was trying to keep that publication from 1690 01:39:22.119 --> 01:39:28.039 actually going through with this obvious what would inevitably tip 1691 01:39:28.119 --> 01:39:30.479 off the group if they were to read it, And 1692 01:39:32.439 --> 01:39:38.760 so the the apparently that was the implication was that 1693 01:39:39.239 --> 01:39:42.039 it had potentially incited Koresh and his followers to take 1694 01:39:42.119 --> 01:39:45.800 up arms to increase their security measures. And so Koresh 1695 01:39:45.880 --> 01:39:50.000 greeted the undercover agent, but he invited him in to 1696 01:39:50.159 --> 01:39:52.680 join the Bible study session with two of his followers, 1697 01:39:53.359 --> 01:39:55.880 and there were obviously no signs at that moment of 1698 01:39:55.960 --> 01:40:01.239 any unusual activity, which was strange obviously Leader Rodriguez himself 1699 01:40:01.359 --> 01:40:05.600 because he was instantly aware of what was attempting to 1700 01:40:05.680 --> 01:40:10.239 be conducted that day, which was not It was basically unplanned. 1701 01:40:10.880 --> 01:40:15.279 So while Koresh and Rodriguez were engaged in this Bible session, 1702 01:40:16.159 --> 01:40:19.439 there was a member of the group, Perry Jones, who 1703 01:40:19.520 --> 01:40:21.720 had just been warned by his son, who was a 1704 01:40:21.800 --> 01:40:24.840 local letter carrier, that had just been accidentally tipped off 1705 01:40:24.960 --> 01:40:28.880 by a lost cameraman working for a news station wearing 1706 01:40:28.920 --> 01:40:34.039 a KWTX jacket looking for the compound, apparently not knowing 1707 01:40:34.159 --> 01:40:37.039 he was affiliated with the group. The cameraman asked for 1708 01:40:37.159 --> 01:40:40.720 directions and indicated that some type of law enforcement action 1709 01:40:41.000 --> 01:40:43.760 was about to take place at the compound, likely to 1710 01:40:43.840 --> 01:40:46.119 be a raid of some type, and that there might 1711 01:40:46.239 --> 01:40:50.880 be shooting. Perry Jones devised a fake phone call pretext 1712 01:40:51.239 --> 01:40:54.079 to draw David away from Agent Rodriguez so he could 1713 01:40:54.119 --> 01:40:56.159 warn him of what he had just learned from his son, 1714 01:40:56.840 --> 01:41:00.800 and according to the report, upon Koresh's return, Rodriguez could 1715 01:41:00.840 --> 01:41:04.479 see that he was extremely agitated, and although he tried 1716 01:41:04.520 --> 01:41:07.880 to resume the Bible session, he could not talk and 1717 01:41:07.960 --> 01:41:12.159 had trouble holding his bible. Rodriguez grabbed the Bible from 1718 01:41:12.239 --> 01:41:15.640 Koresh and asked him what was wrong. Rodriguez recalls that 1719 01:41:15.760 --> 01:41:19.319 Koresh said something about the Kingdom of God and proclaimed, 1720 01:41:19.920 --> 01:41:22.880 neither the ATF nor the National Guard will ever get me. 1721 01:41:23.640 --> 01:41:26.239 They get me once, they get me once, and they'll 1722 01:41:26.279 --> 01:41:30.199 never get me again. Koresh then, which is a strange 1723 01:41:30.239 --> 01:41:33.199 thing to say in the first place. And Koresh then 1724 01:41:33.279 --> 01:41:37.239 walked to the window and looked out, saying, they're coming, Robert. 1725 01:41:37.560 --> 01:41:41.199 The time has come. He turned looking at Robert and 1726 01:41:41.319 --> 01:41:47.359 repeated the exact same statement, They're coming Robert, and Rodriguez, 1727 01:41:47.439 --> 01:41:51.199 being shocked, of course, Koresh repeatedly looked out the window 1728 01:41:51.319 --> 01:41:55.399 and repeated this statement. Rodriguez wondered whether the raid was beginning, 1729 01:41:55.880 --> 01:41:59.159 even though he was still in the compound, so he's 1730 01:41:59.239 --> 01:42:02.159 looking for an excuse to leave at this point, and uh, 1731 01:42:02.319 --> 01:42:05.319 and he tells Koresh he had to meet someone for breakfast, 1732 01:42:05.800 --> 01:42:08.640 but Koresh didn't even respond to this, and and apparently 1733 01:42:08.720 --> 01:42:13.079 another male member entered the room, effectively, if not intentionally, 1734 01:42:13.159 --> 01:42:16.319 coming between them as far as Rodriguez in the door. 1735 01:42:17.159 --> 01:42:23.880 And so he's he's fearing being trapped in the compound, contemplating. 1736 01:42:23.319 --> 01:42:24.520 Literally arrested him right there. 1737 01:42:25.000 --> 01:42:29.520 Yeah, I know, and it is, it really is. And 1738 01:42:29.640 --> 01:42:33.479 so but as he's claiming, you know, he's he's basically, 1739 01:42:35.159 --> 01:42:38.000 you know, solo in this operation at this point, kind 1740 01:42:38.039 --> 01:42:41.039 of left out hanging to dry in a sort of way. 1741 01:42:41.720 --> 01:42:46.199 And so he's kind of panicking apparently, and uh, he's 1742 01:42:46.279 --> 01:42:49.199 like contemplating jumping through this window of the compound because 1743 01:42:49.239 --> 01:42:54.159 he didn't want to be trapped and repeated that man, 1744 01:42:55.000 --> 01:42:55.560 you know, all it. 1745 01:42:55.560 --> 01:42:58.479 Would take is one little moment of hero heroism right there, 1746 01:42:58.560 --> 01:43:00.960 and all he would have to do with him and say, hey, 1747 01:43:01.399 --> 01:43:03.680 let me arrestue, let me take you out, and it 1748 01:43:03.720 --> 01:43:07.199 would have fucked up all of their plans and like 1749 01:43:07.279 --> 01:43:08.760 that that's all he had to do, and then we 1750 01:43:08.960 --> 01:43:11.600 have avoided all of this. So I know truly, just 1751 01:43:11.680 --> 01:43:13.520 as I was just thinking about that, as you're talking about, 1752 01:43:13.520 --> 01:43:14.960 like literally all he had to do is he was like, 1753 01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:16.840 oh my god. Obviously he's like, oh my god, it's awful. 1754 01:43:16.960 --> 01:43:19.000 Was like, okay, we'll grow a fucking pair of balls. 1755 01:43:19.640 --> 01:43:22.800 Tell him he obviously knows, be like, hey, we can 1756 01:43:22.840 --> 01:43:24.119 avoid all of this if you want to come with 1757 01:43:24.239 --> 01:43:25.520 me right now and we can take you under it. 1758 01:43:26.199 --> 01:43:29.560 Instead, he's like, uh, I gotta go get get breakfast. 1759 01:43:30.199 --> 01:43:35.199 Like what what are you doing? Man? Yeah? Fuck? Your 1760 01:43:35.239 --> 01:43:37.800 whole goal here was to go and see I guess 1761 01:43:38.239 --> 01:43:40.520 the implication is that he was trying to see did 1762 01:43:40.600 --> 01:43:44.479 he have prior knowledge, yes, prior knowledge, Yeah, he obviously does. Yeah, 1763 01:43:44.680 --> 01:43:46.600 so what the fuck are you doing now? You know? 1764 01:43:46.800 --> 01:43:51.520 And and and so then you know. Koresh apparently approaches 1765 01:43:51.640 --> 01:43:54.680 him after he says again repeating that he's leaving for 1766 01:43:54.720 --> 01:43:55.720 a breakfast appointment. 1767 01:43:56.399 --> 01:43:56.520 Uh. 1768 01:43:56.680 --> 01:44:00.319 He approaches him in a manner that Rode he has 1769 01:44:00.399 --> 01:44:06.359 believed highly uncharacteristic, and he shakes Rodriguez's hand and says 1770 01:44:06.439 --> 01:44:10.319 good luck, Robert, and then he leaves the compound, gets 1771 01:44:10.359 --> 01:44:12.920 into his truck and drives to the undercover house. So 1772 01:44:13.039 --> 01:44:15.640 it doesn't really sound like why you're freaking out and 1773 01:44:15.720 --> 01:44:19.520 panicking so much? And then he just walks out, gets 1774 01:44:19.560 --> 01:44:23.239 into his truck, drives back across the street into the 1775 01:44:23.319 --> 01:44:25.439 undercover house. I mean, I don't know, it just sounds 1776 01:44:25.760 --> 01:44:29.520 strange from the you know, just at face value, like 1777 01:44:29.640 --> 01:44:32.119 what what are we talking about here? It's hard to 1778 01:44:32.159 --> 01:44:36.439 believe that that's how it really went, but it's possible. 1779 01:44:38.119 --> 01:44:43.399 Agents in the undercover house they claim that when Rodriguez returned, 1780 01:44:43.439 --> 01:44:47.760 he's visibly upset, and he called Charles Sarabin, the overall 1781 01:44:47.840 --> 01:44:51.560 tactical coordinator for the raid, who's at the command post 1782 01:44:51.640 --> 01:44:53.560 at the time, and he tells us spell real quick, 1783 01:44:54.560 --> 01:44:59.319 Charles Sarabin. I believe it's essay r A B y N. 1784 01:45:00.000 --> 01:45:03.039 Believe that's how it's pronounced. Yeah, which, by the way, 1785 01:45:03.119 --> 01:45:05.960 he's uh, he's the site commander at Ruby Ridge. 1786 01:45:05.960 --> 01:45:07.680 I believe, is it Sarah Fim? 1787 01:45:09.720 --> 01:45:13.279 I believe it's uh, let's see, because I'm. 1788 01:45:13.159 --> 01:45:18.279 Pretty sure if I recall correctly, that there was I 1789 01:45:18.399 --> 01:45:22.800 believe that was Kyle Serafin's dad. If I recall correctly, Yeah, 1790 01:45:22.800 --> 01:45:27.840 it was the Kyle Seraphim, one of the the whistle 1791 01:45:27.880 --> 01:45:31.479 blowers the FBI whistleblowers, the unsuspendables, or whatever the hell 1792 01:45:31.520 --> 01:45:34.960 they call themselves, the group of FBI guys that left 1793 01:45:35.000 --> 01:45:37.439 around that time. I believe it's that's the that's correct, 1794 01:45:37.520 --> 01:45:41.600 Charles Seraphim or Sarah Finn maybe Sarah Finn. I think 1795 01:45:42.520 --> 01:45:44.560 I believe if I call correctly. 1796 01:45:46.119 --> 01:45:51.960 Yeah, okay, No, I think I think they're different because 1797 01:45:52.119 --> 01:45:53.239 Charles Sarah Bin. 1798 01:45:55.720 --> 01:45:58.399 I swear, I swear I heard somebody say somewhere, maybe 1799 01:45:58.439 --> 01:46:00.439 they got the names mixed up to where I saw 1800 01:46:00.520 --> 01:46:02.760 somebody say somewhere his dad was involved with Waco in 1801 01:46:02.880 --> 01:46:04.800 some way, in like a good way, like he was 1802 01:46:05.039 --> 01:46:06.560 he actually was trying to. 1803 01:46:06.560 --> 01:46:07.920 Do good things or something. 1804 01:46:08.359 --> 01:46:10.760 I forget. I don't know. I just hear kept hearing 1805 01:46:10.800 --> 01:46:12.359 you say that. I'm like, this sounds so familiar. Maybe 1806 01:46:12.399 --> 01:46:15.159 you're saying it wrong, but all right, sorry, my bad, 1807 01:46:15.399 --> 01:46:17.520 go on, No, it is it is. 1808 01:46:19.239 --> 01:46:23.439 It's just you know, this guy, he himself provides kind 1809 01:46:23.439 --> 01:46:26.159 of a smoking gun to the pat Con connection here 1810 01:46:26.199 --> 01:46:32.039 as well, because you have him met Charles Sarabin, the 1811 01:46:32.159 --> 01:46:34.800 overall tactical coordinator for the raid at the command post, 1812 01:46:36.239 --> 01:46:40.199 you know, being told by Rodriguez that Koresh was upset 1813 01:46:40.680 --> 01:46:43.439 that Koresh said had said ATF and the National Guard 1814 01:46:43.520 --> 01:46:46.920 were coming, and that as Rodriguez left Koresh he was 1815 01:46:47.000 --> 01:46:52.399 shaking and reading the Bible. So obviously he seemed to 1816 01:46:52.479 --> 01:46:56.600 be and yeah, in a very heightened state emotionally. Obviously, 1817 01:46:56.640 --> 01:46:59.159 if he's shaking, right, if that's the actual claim. So 1818 01:46:59.319 --> 01:47:02.800 Sarabin asked Rodriguez a series of questions from a prepared 1819 01:47:02.920 --> 01:47:06.920 list provided by the tactical planners. Did you see any weapons? 1820 01:47:07.760 --> 01:47:10.359 Was there a call to arms? Did you see them 1821 01:47:10.399 --> 01:47:14.960 make any preparations? Robert responded in the negative to every question, 1822 01:47:15.640 --> 01:47:18.439 and then Sarabin asked what the people in the compound 1823 01:47:18.520 --> 01:47:24.520 were doing when Rodriguez left. He answered that they were praying. Next, 1824 01:47:25.119 --> 01:47:28.800 Sarabin called Kavanaugh, who reported that there was no observable 1825 01:47:28.840 --> 01:47:32.079 activity in the compound. Often obviously he's a hostage negotiator 1826 01:47:32.079 --> 01:47:35.000 at the time, special agent in the command post witnessed 1827 01:47:35.000 --> 01:47:39.319 Sarabin's part of the conversation with Rodriguez. Now, after Sarabin 1828 01:47:39.399 --> 01:47:42.640 had hung up the phone, the agent stopped him asked 1829 01:47:42.680 --> 01:47:46.000 what Rodriguez had said. Sarabin responded that he had been 1830 01:47:46.079 --> 01:47:48.399 with Koresh when Koresh was called from the room to 1831 01:47:48.479 --> 01:47:51.640 take an emergency telephone call. When he returned to the room, 1832 01:47:51.680 --> 01:47:54.039 he said that ATF the National Guard were in Waco 1833 01:47:54.319 --> 01:47:58.159 and were on their way. Sarabin also stated that Rodriguez 1834 01:47:58.239 --> 01:48:01.680 reported Koresh was nervous drop the Bible from which he 1835 01:48:01.800 --> 01:48:06.000 was reading, and then the agent asked Sarabin, what are 1836 01:48:06.039 --> 01:48:09.479 you going to do? He responds that Rodriguez had seen 1837 01:48:09.560 --> 01:48:12.239 no firearms and that Koresh was reading the Bible. When 1838 01:48:12.319 --> 01:48:15.680 Rodriguez left, Sarrebin said he thought they could still execute 1839 01:48:15.720 --> 01:48:18.960 the plan if they moved quickly. He then arrives at 1840 01:48:19.000 --> 01:48:22.199 the staging area at nine ten am. Witnesses report that 1841 01:48:22.279 --> 01:48:25.960 he was excited and obviously in a hurry. Agents in 1842 01:48:26.039 --> 01:48:28.600 the parking lot when Sarabin arrived recalled that he ran 1843 01:48:28.720 --> 01:48:30.720 to them and told them that they had to hurry, 1844 01:48:30.880 --> 01:48:34.119 making statements such as get ready to go. They know 1845 01:48:34.239 --> 01:48:38.119 we are coming, and they know ATF and the National 1846 01:48:38.159 --> 01:48:41.560 Guard are coming. We're going to hit them now. So 1847 01:48:41.720 --> 01:48:44.720 it's just I mean, they had full prior knowledge, you know, 1848 01:48:44.920 --> 01:48:48.159 being as far as both of the groups, right, So 1849 01:48:48.279 --> 01:48:50.760 you have each side of this conflict about to play 1850 01:48:50.800 --> 01:48:57.600 out perfectly, you know, being just again prior knowledge well 1851 01:48:57.640 --> 01:49:00.079 aware of what's about to ensue and that alone, and 1852 01:49:01.159 --> 01:49:04.560 I think, uh, in no way obviously when when you 1853 01:49:04.760 --> 01:49:07.800 you realize that kind of the rules of engagement at 1854 01:49:07.840 --> 01:49:10.319 the time were all hinging on the fact that there 1855 01:49:10.520 --> 01:49:13.399 was no uh you know, prior knowledge. 1856 01:49:13.840 --> 01:49:15.640 I will say this, this did lead to one of 1857 01:49:15.720 --> 01:49:22.479 the best civilian versus military KD ratios like out there. 1858 01:49:22.479 --> 01:49:24.800 I'll give them that. It was what the six of four. 1859 01:49:24.800 --> 01:49:26.319 I mean, they were on the losing side there, but 1860 01:49:26.560 --> 01:49:30.439 like you know, you what, they lost six, then the 1861 01:49:30.520 --> 01:49:33.720 FEDS lost four. You don't see that sort of odds usually, right, 1862 01:49:33.760 --> 01:49:35.319 which I mean that probably did play a little bit 1863 01:49:35.359 --> 01:49:37.840 into maybe why these people are all dead. 1864 01:49:38.520 --> 01:49:41.399 Uh because you think so, because it would be just 1865 01:49:41.479 --> 01:49:44.079 like obviously retaliatory in nature, you would want to gay 1866 01:49:44.159 --> 01:49:46.279 they got one of ours. You know, it's like our 1867 01:49:46.359 --> 01:49:48.760 blood was spilled. Now you know, we got skin in 1868 01:49:48.840 --> 01:49:52.239 the game type of ruby ruby Ridge psychology in a way. 1869 01:49:52.760 --> 01:49:56.239 But I'm beginning to think there's a layered operation playing out. 1870 01:49:56.319 --> 01:49:59.319 Whether that was the case almost feels like it doesn't 1871 01:49:59.359 --> 01:50:01.840 even matter at the point. I mean, obviously it would 1872 01:50:02.000 --> 01:50:09.119 escalate tensions and you know, make ultimately everything, it would 1873 01:50:09.199 --> 01:50:15.439 just escalate and make it inevitably worse obviously, but still understanding, 1874 01:50:15.720 --> 01:50:19.000 you know, first of all, like what I didn't realize 1875 01:50:20.439 --> 01:50:23.640 Three of Bill Clinton's bodyguards during his nineteen ninety two 1876 01:50:23.720 --> 01:50:28.520 election campaign were engaged in the Waco operation as officers 1877 01:50:28.600 --> 01:50:32.359 of the Bureau of Alcoholics back on firearms. Now, not 1878 01:50:32.520 --> 01:50:37.760 only that, out of the four BATF officers who were 1879 01:50:37.840 --> 01:50:40.560 killed in the initial raid on malt Carmel on February 1880 01:50:40.600 --> 01:50:44.199 twenty eighth, ninety three, three of them were the very 1881 01:50:44.279 --> 01:50:48.279 same former Clinton bodyguards. Like that alone is holy shit, 1882 01:50:48.840 --> 01:50:53.479 what is going on here? You know? And yeah? Yeah, 1883 01:50:53.600 --> 01:50:59.880 and then also just the press opportunity. Why why was 1884 01:51:00.359 --> 01:51:05.039 was there so much? It feels like it was just 1885 01:51:05.159 --> 01:51:08.279 at the very least exploited, you know, for public perception. 1886 01:51:08.479 --> 01:51:11.199 And but I think it's I think it's more statistic 1887 01:51:11.319 --> 01:51:14.399 than that. I think there's an additional layer that you know, 1888 01:51:15.000 --> 01:51:17.560 we haven't yet. Uh now, I'm I feel like I'm 1889 01:51:17.720 --> 01:51:21.079 beginning to expose myself to that potential reality. But anyway, 1890 01:51:21.079 --> 01:51:22.359 I don't want to get far off the point. So 1891 01:51:24.319 --> 01:51:27.600 but I will say that aside, is that not extraordinary? 1892 01:51:27.880 --> 01:51:31.239 Like that's that's absolutely crazy? Yeah, I don't even know 1893 01:51:31.279 --> 01:51:34.720 what to make of that, Like, uh huh. I mean 1894 01:51:34.800 --> 01:51:37.000 we've seen videos of the like the the one guy 1895 01:51:37.159 --> 01:51:38.720 got shot in the window, so I don't know if 1896 01:51:38.720 --> 01:51:40.600 he died, to be fair, so it's like we know 1897 01:51:40.800 --> 01:51:43.560 some of it is authentic, but like obviously for that thesis, 1898 01:51:43.680 --> 01:51:46.560 it's like, what the hell happened where they're in like 1899 01:51:46.680 --> 01:51:48.880 intentional friendly fire of some sort going on? 1900 01:51:49.159 --> 01:51:51.680 I don't know. I can only I can only speculate, 1901 01:51:51.800 --> 01:51:53.880 Like what the hell do you do with that? I mean, obviously, 1902 01:51:54.560 --> 01:51:56.600 I guess it can just be a coincidence. That's one 1903 01:51:56.680 --> 01:51:57.960 hell of a fucking coincidence. 1904 01:51:58.199 --> 01:52:02.560 What I'm saying, what what? What will after we finish 1905 01:52:02.640 --> 01:52:06.560 here with with really you know, the crux of of 1906 01:52:07.159 --> 01:52:10.800 the siege and what really took place with the event 1907 01:52:10.920 --> 01:52:14.880 and the tragic outcome, we can get into one additional 1908 01:52:14.960 --> 01:52:17.600 wrinkle there before we we finish up, and and it 1909 01:52:17.720 --> 01:52:22.800 will potentially allude to a plausible alternative theory that that 1910 01:52:23.760 --> 01:52:28.000 that really does parallel and mirror that of Jonestown as 1911 01:52:28.039 --> 01:52:30.680 far as the clean up crew. The clean up crew, 1912 01:52:31.560 --> 01:52:34.359 it's very interesting to to to see what might have 1913 01:52:34.479 --> 01:52:37.279 been and then realize that this could have been some 1914 01:52:37.520 --> 01:52:41.079 sort of manufactured press opportunity for you know, to to 1915 01:52:41.319 --> 01:52:44.720 achieve layered objectives. So anyway, we'll get into this, but 1916 01:52:44.880 --> 01:52:46.800 that's just score. 1917 01:52:47.000 --> 01:52:50.279 Earth is something that's pretty easy to uh manipulate the 1918 01:52:50.359 --> 01:52:52.520 narrative on later. I mean, when all you have, all 1919 01:52:52.520 --> 01:52:53.239 the evidence. 1920 01:52:52.960 --> 01:52:56.800 Is yeah, and and there are always going to be 1921 01:52:57.439 --> 01:53:01.680 extraordinary conspiracies that that you know, inevitably kind of form 1922 01:53:01.800 --> 01:53:05.800 around these most most of the scandalous events, and at 1923 01:53:05.920 --> 01:53:10.359 least especially something that's so consequential as Waco, and and 1924 01:53:10.760 --> 01:53:12.680 you know what it represents, you know what I mean. 1925 01:53:12.760 --> 01:53:16.520 And just the dynamic, the power dynamic. Okay, so we're 1926 01:53:16.640 --> 01:53:18.960 we're at Waco right now, or not at Waco. We're 1927 01:53:19.000 --> 01:53:21.439 at the the initial rate. It's already we're basically already 1928 01:53:21.439 --> 01:53:23.600 it popped off. H Like I said, we got we 1929 01:53:23.680 --> 01:53:26.800 got four four of theirs dead six of hours. I 1930 01:53:26.880 --> 01:53:29.279 say hours, but you know what I mean. Uh, But 1931 01:53:29.479 --> 01:53:31.880 so so we're we're now we're dealing with the aftermath. 1932 01:53:32.000 --> 01:53:35.840 Now we're we're you know now, tensions are slowly settling down. 1933 01:53:35.960 --> 01:53:38.319 I think you know, if you listen to the you know, 1934 01:53:38.399 --> 01:53:40.600 your episode where you play the little audio, you can 1935 01:53:40.960 --> 01:53:43.000 you know they still got firing going on that point, 1936 01:53:43.039 --> 01:53:45.079 but you know, they start coorning with each other say hey, 1937 01:53:45.239 --> 01:53:47.840 you know, let's chill it out. So that's where we're at. Now, 1938 01:53:47.880 --> 01:53:50.319 we're at the we're at a standoff. So where we're 1939 01:53:50.319 --> 01:53:53.000 at with the relevant stuff in the in the standoff. 1940 01:53:53.000 --> 01:53:55.439 I know, usually standoff does get kind of hand waved over, 1941 01:53:56.319 --> 01:53:58.840 but there are definitely things to you know, to pick 1942 01:53:58.920 --> 01:54:00.920 at through there too, to highlight. 1943 01:54:01.840 --> 01:54:06.399 Yeah, yeah, well I should mention the dog team as well. 1944 01:54:06.720 --> 01:54:09.680 And then and then yeah, I'll get directly into the 1945 01:54:09.840 --> 01:54:13.039 standoff and the siege and and the you know, the 1946 01:54:13.159 --> 01:54:15.720 tactics that were playing out as well, which we can 1947 01:54:16.279 --> 01:54:18.279 we can. You know, I won't mean I basically straight 1948 01:54:18.359 --> 01:54:20.840 upset it earlier, but you can say it again. Oh yeah, 1949 01:54:21.640 --> 01:54:24.039 I won't linger too long on the on the excessive details. 1950 01:54:24.039 --> 01:54:29.159 But still you have Charles Sarabin and Philip Chognak Chosnuki, 1951 01:54:29.680 --> 01:54:32.199 the two federal agents in charge of leading the initial 1952 01:54:32.319 --> 01:54:35.479 raid who later would be fired for lying to their 1953 01:54:35.520 --> 01:54:40.560 superiors and investigators about what undercover agent Rodriguez had reported, 1954 01:54:41.319 --> 01:54:45.159 uh apparently corroborated by sixty one different witnesses as well. 1955 01:54:45.920 --> 01:54:51.039 So they took the fall. Officials during the Waco investigation 1956 01:54:51.159 --> 01:54:54.439 would even suggest on the record that the implication of 1957 01:54:54.479 --> 01:54:58.800 their findings is that in lying to investigators, mister Sarabin 1958 01:54:59.720 --> 01:55:05.439 and mister Chozhnuki could be guilty of felony offenses. Not 1959 01:55:05.680 --> 01:55:08.600 only did they lie about what was reported, they also 1960 01:55:08.680 --> 01:55:13.800 attempted to shift blame to mister Rodriguez, even altering documentary evidence. 1961 01:55:14.119 --> 01:55:19.640 Later on, so Robert Rodriguez filed lawsuits against his supervisors 1962 01:55:19.680 --> 01:55:22.359 and the BATF and ninety five, claiming that they had 1963 01:55:22.439 --> 01:55:26.239 defamed him and conspired to make him a scapegoat, eventually 1964 01:55:26.359 --> 01:55:28.760 settling out of court where he would receive over two 1965 01:55:28.800 --> 01:55:32.239 million dollars in damages. None of the real victims obviously 1966 01:55:32.920 --> 01:55:38.359 received any damages as far as any of financial damages 1967 01:55:38.399 --> 01:55:43.039 but compensation, but more than seventy five agents, obviously nine 1968 01:55:43.039 --> 01:55:45.199 to forty five am the day of the raid rolled 1969 01:55:45.239 --> 01:55:48.239 up to Mount Carmel, jumping out two cattle cars, shouting 1970 01:55:48.279 --> 01:55:52.239 showtime ATF would never attempt to serve the search warrant, obviously, 1971 01:55:52.800 --> 01:55:55.840 the initial plan being one group of agents will break 1972 01:55:55.880 --> 01:55:58.520 through the front door while another group took ladders and 1973 01:55:58.560 --> 01:56:00.680 smashed through the windows on the second and floor where 1974 01:56:00.680 --> 01:56:04.159 the women and children were. Multiple agents would later say 1975 01:56:04.199 --> 01:56:07.239 that the Fed shot first would be Ridge all over 1976 01:56:07.319 --> 01:56:10.359 again six months later, although that would be at the 1977 01:56:10.439 --> 01:56:13.560 center of much controversy due to the official claims being 1978 01:56:13.680 --> 01:56:16.399 that the FEDS had shown restraint after being attacked by 1979 01:56:16.479 --> 01:56:21.039 radical cult members led by a madman. One of the agents, 1980 01:56:21.039 --> 01:56:24.479 while testifying in the San Antonio trial, would even back 1981 01:56:24.560 --> 01:56:27.079 up the claim made by the Davidians about a separate 1982 01:56:27.159 --> 01:56:30.159 group of ATF called the Dog Team, which you had 1983 01:56:30.199 --> 01:56:33.359 mentioned earlier, which obviously in the first few moments of 1984 01:56:33.439 --> 01:56:36.880 the operation were the ones responsible for the initial shots fired. 1985 01:56:37.439 --> 01:56:40.039 They had gone up to the Davidians fully enclosed dog 1986 01:56:40.159 --> 01:56:42.520 kennel near the front door of the property with five 1987 01:56:42.680 --> 01:56:47.439 Alaskan malamuse fawn and her four pups, and their job 1988 01:56:47.600 --> 01:56:51.279 was to shoot them in cold blood. Claims were made 1989 01:56:51.319 --> 01:56:53.920 that agents then mistook the shots fired from the Dog 1990 01:56:54.000 --> 01:56:56.840 Team shots coming from the Davidians, and so they all 1991 01:56:56.960 --> 01:56:59.439 opened fire on the house, sparking over a two hour 1992 01:56:59.560 --> 01:57:03.199 long fire fight in the Texas Prairie. Could you imagine, 1993 01:57:03.479 --> 01:57:06.960 It's like, it's literally like the original Predator when they 1994 01:57:07.039 --> 01:57:09.520 first don't they have no idea. What that what they're 1995 01:57:09.520 --> 01:57:11.960 shooting at. But they all empty, every single last round 1996 01:57:12.039 --> 01:57:16.600 into fucking thin air. That's like what it sounds like happened. 1997 01:57:17.479 --> 01:57:20.800 So David Koresh had been shot in the hand, in 1998 01:57:20.880 --> 01:57:24.399 the stomach when the first shots had been fired. He's wounded. 1999 01:57:24.479 --> 01:57:28.000 Now within a minute, you have the attorney Wayne Martin, 2000 01:57:28.119 --> 01:57:31.880 member of the group, Harvard law graduate, African American, called 2001 01:57:31.960 --> 01:57:34.680 nine one one, pleading for a ceasefire, with audio tapes 2002 01:57:34.720 --> 01:57:38.960 recording him saying, here they come again, and that's them shooting. 2003 01:57:39.039 --> 01:57:42.720 That's not us. The five Branch Davidians killed in the 2004 01:57:42.760 --> 01:57:46.319 initial raid the morning of the twenty eighth, where Winston Blake, 2005 01:57:47.000 --> 01:57:53.159 Peter Grant, Peter Hipsman, Perry Jones, and Jadon Wendell. Their 2006 01:57:53.239 --> 01:57:57.079 bodies were buried on the grounds. Nearly six hours after 2007 01:57:57.159 --> 01:58:02.159 the eleven thirty am c's fire, Michael Schroeder, whose wife 2008 01:58:02.319 --> 01:58:06.000 was inside the compound, was shot dead by ATF agents 2009 01:58:06.039 --> 01:58:08.760 who alleged his he fired a pistol at agents as 2010 01:58:08.800 --> 01:58:12.039 he attempted to re enter the compound. The hat he 2011 01:58:12.199 --> 01:58:15.359 was wearing at the time that he was shot. This 2012 01:58:15.520 --> 01:58:19.279 sounds like a straight up you know, murder. I mean honestly, 2013 01:58:19.760 --> 01:58:23.840 and because this guy whose wife was inside the compound. 2014 01:58:23.960 --> 01:58:26.479 I mean imagine that man, you know, you come home, 2015 01:58:26.560 --> 01:58:29.600 You're like, what the fuck? You know you? I got 2016 01:58:29.680 --> 01:58:31.520 to get home, Like people all over town have been 2017 01:58:31.520 --> 01:58:33.880 telling me that this shit's popping off. You'd have to 2018 01:58:33.960 --> 01:58:36.600 imagine that was probably what happened. He's getting calls from everywhere. 2019 01:58:37.720 --> 01:58:41.399 He ends up Michael Schroeder, this individual six hours after 2020 01:58:41.479 --> 01:58:45.159 the ceasefire, so he has to know his wife's in 2021 01:58:45.239 --> 01:58:48.920 the damn compound shot dead by ATF agents. This man, 2022 01:58:49.000 --> 01:58:51.279 who alleged he fired a pistol at agents says he 2023 01:58:51.319 --> 01:58:54.560 attempted to render the compound. The hat he was wearing 2024 01:58:54.600 --> 01:58:57.039 at the time he was shot would also mysteriously go 2025 01:58:57.159 --> 01:59:03.760 missing from the evidence. How convenient, Yeah, so Professor Emeritus 2026 01:59:03.840 --> 01:59:07.279 of Law on Psychiatry at Harvard Law School, Alan Stone. 2027 01:59:08.039 --> 01:59:11.000 He stated in his report that the Branch Davidians did 2028 01:59:11.079 --> 01:59:14.399 not ambush the ATF, that they did not maximize the 2029 01:59:14.479 --> 01:59:19.079 kill of ATF agents. Four ATF agents were killed during 2030 01:59:19.119 --> 01:59:22.600 the raid and over twenty had sustained injuries. That is 2031 01:59:22.640 --> 01:59:26.720 a hell of a firefight. The ATF would continue attacking 2032 01:59:26.760 --> 01:59:29.600 the house until they ran out of ammunition, So it 2033 01:59:29.720 --> 01:59:32.560 is exactly like what I was considered what I thought 2034 01:59:32.600 --> 01:59:37.520 it sounded like. Right after the ATF withdrew, they attempted 2035 01:59:37.520 --> 01:59:40.479 to establish contact with Koresh and others inside the house. 2036 01:59:41.119 --> 01:59:43.159 As a result of the deaths of federal agents, the 2037 01:59:43.319 --> 01:59:47.239 FBI quickly took over the operation, naming Jeff Jamar as 2038 01:59:47.279 --> 01:59:50.960 site commander, who had most recently been the head of 2039 01:59:51.000 --> 01:59:54.960 the San Antonio Field Office. The FBI's Blue and Gold 2040 01:59:55.079 --> 01:59:58.680 Hostage Rescue Tactical teams had been mobilized to the site. 2041 02:00:00.039 --> 02:00:03.720 To address your team commander Richard Rodgers. He had been 2042 02:00:03.800 --> 02:00:06.520 criticized for his actions at Ruby Ridge. That is the 2043 02:00:06.600 --> 02:00:09.960 site commander who was criticized from Ruby Ridge around six 2044 02:00:10.079 --> 02:00:12.880 months prior to Waco. He would be the one in 2045 02:00:13.039 --> 02:00:17.039 charge of the tactical teams, later receiving more criticism for 2046 02:00:17.199 --> 02:00:21.159 overriding the site commander at Waco in the same exact 2047 02:00:21.279 --> 02:00:26.039 way he did at Ruby Ridge. So that's Richard Rogers. 2048 02:00:28.479 --> 02:00:31.840 He had to have been at least an asset of 2049 02:00:32.000 --> 02:00:36.279 pat Con if not a direct operative. But he's calling 2050 02:00:36.359 --> 02:00:40.800 to resolve the situation tactically, which of course causes friction 2051 02:00:40.960 --> 02:00:44.359 with the FBI. Negotiators attempting to make progress in good 2052 02:00:44.439 --> 02:00:47.319 faith with the group. And according to the final Justice 2053 02:00:47.359 --> 02:00:52.960 Department report, you have twenty five FBI negotiators heavily criticized 2054 02:00:54.760 --> 02:00:58.880 as far as they heavily criticized the tactical commanders for 2055 02:00:59.079 --> 02:01:03.119 undercutting their botiations. So in no way were they able 2056 02:01:03.199 --> 02:01:05.640 to act in good faith. They couldn't even you know, 2057 02:01:07.279 --> 02:01:11.119 they couldn't trust that anything that they would tell the 2058 02:01:11.239 --> 02:01:15.239 members of the group would end up being legitimately honest. 2059 02:01:15.520 --> 02:01:17.439 So at a certain point they were just like, what 2060 02:01:17.600 --> 02:01:19.520 the fuck do we even do? I mean, this is 2061 02:01:19.600 --> 02:01:21.520 obviously not going to end well, that is not the 2062 02:01:21.600 --> 02:01:26.880 goal here. And so David initially tries to give phone 2063 02:01:26.920 --> 02:01:30.319 interviews with local news media. What a what a brilliant tactic. 2064 02:01:30.399 --> 02:01:33.039 I mean, obviously you would have to do that if 2065 02:01:33.079 --> 02:01:35.119 you want to get out in front of this trying. 2066 02:01:35.199 --> 02:01:38.399 Hey man, we might all be sacrificed out here, like 2067 02:01:38.520 --> 02:01:40.479 we need to do. Get get out in front of this, 2068 02:01:40.640 --> 02:01:45.119 do something about the public perception and and but of course, 2069 02:01:45.159 --> 02:01:48.199 guess what happens. The FBI quickly cut the phone lines 2070 02:01:48.239 --> 02:01:50.479 and shut off all water and power to the house. 2071 02:01:52.079 --> 02:01:54.039 That's a siege man, I mean, yeah. 2072 02:01:53.880 --> 02:01:55.920 There was a famous sign that I forget what was 2073 02:01:56.159 --> 02:01:59.399 like a bigger it was a phone's cad. Well on 2074 02:01:59.479 --> 02:02:01.760 speaks you're something like it's it's just trying to get 2075 02:02:01.800 --> 02:02:04.359 out work. Like they're not able to talk. They're literally stuck. 2076 02:02:04.840 --> 02:02:07.239 There's no lines of communications out of that point. They're 2077 02:02:07.239 --> 02:02:09.600 they're literally trying to talk to the world via signs 2078 02:02:09.720 --> 02:02:10.119 like hey. 2079 02:02:10.039 --> 02:02:10.439 We're all. 2080 02:02:11.840 --> 02:02:13.920 He rolls up. He's like, what what are you doing? 2081 02:02:14.239 --> 02:02:16.119 Just like Ruby Ridge, Why don't you just try and 2082 02:02:16.199 --> 02:02:19.680 talk to them? Man, that's all he said. He's like, 2083 02:02:19.800 --> 02:02:26.359 they're good people, That's what he's climbing. And so apparently 2084 02:02:26.960 --> 02:02:29.680 as as the water and power and phone lines are 2085 02:02:29.680 --> 02:02:32.680 all being cut off, they had just negotiated a shipment 2086 02:02:32.760 --> 02:02:35.239 of milk for the children still in the house when 2087 02:02:35.279 --> 02:02:38.279 they shut off this power, subsequently causing that very same 2088 02:02:38.359 --> 02:02:42.159 milk to spoil. And so those were the very mind 2089 02:02:42.239 --> 02:02:45.800 games that they were, you know, operating with and and 2090 02:02:46.000 --> 02:02:51.359 and you know, exploiting and leveraging to their benefit, serving 2091 02:02:51.439 --> 02:02:54.920 to the negotiator's point as far as undercutting their ability 2092 02:02:55.000 --> 02:03:00.479 to act in good faith. So negotiators, they managed to 2093 02:03:00.520 --> 02:03:04.119 facilitate the release of up to nineteen children along with 2094 02:03:04.279 --> 02:03:08.119 a number of elderly women who would immediately be separated 2095 02:03:08.159 --> 02:03:12.640 from the children, which that alone, they're charged with conspiracy 2096 02:03:12.720 --> 02:03:14.000 to murder government agents. 2097 02:03:14.279 --> 02:03:14.920 It's insane. 2098 02:03:16.159 --> 02:03:19.560 And then they're placed into five point chains and jumpsuits. 2099 02:03:20.800 --> 02:03:22.760 And then use to fuck with the people in there, 2100 02:03:23.159 --> 02:03:25.319 and then and then they use those same people that 2101 02:03:25.399 --> 02:03:29.319 they just imprisoned to fuck with them. Because I remember 2102 02:03:29.399 --> 02:03:31.600 when I when I've dug into this, and I for 2103 02:03:31.680 --> 02:03:35.079 those arount aware, I believe, I believe Scott Horne is 2104 02:03:35.119 --> 02:03:37.319 like a huge series like somewhere in like the realm 2105 02:03:37.359 --> 02:03:39.159 of like twenty Hours or something. But yeah, they were 2106 02:03:39.239 --> 02:03:41.439 like they were like the big thing is these people 2107 02:03:41.479 --> 02:03:43.319 could would like when they were trying to negotiate like 2108 02:03:43.399 --> 02:03:45.800 getting people out, it was like the idea of like 2109 02:03:45.920 --> 02:03:47.960 for one that's like to some extent like sort of 2110 02:03:48.119 --> 02:03:51.039 this is our leverage. These people here. Also they don't 2111 02:03:51.079 --> 02:03:53.199 want to go with you because they're literally terrified of 2112 02:03:53.279 --> 02:03:55.920 you because they just just came in here and murdered 2113 02:03:55.960 --> 02:03:59.920 their family and friends. So it's just like and then 2114 02:04:00.119 --> 02:04:02.239 the idea that and when you finally convince them to 2115 02:04:02.319 --> 02:04:04.640 let some of them go, that you then immediately you know, 2116 02:04:05.119 --> 02:04:08.000 then arrest them and then use them to emotion further 2117 02:04:08.119 --> 02:04:11.359 emotionally manipulate the rest of them. It's just it's a 2118 02:04:12.960 --> 02:04:15.560 just what do you expect to I mean, once again 2119 02:04:15.640 --> 02:04:17.359 to the what do you expect to happen? It's like, well, 2120 02:04:17.600 --> 02:04:19.399 kind of what ended up happening, and this obviously this 2121 02:04:19.520 --> 02:04:22.920 ends up being like a testing ground for methods and procedures, 2122 02:04:22.960 --> 02:04:25.399 which it does seem like. I mean, that reminds me 2123 02:04:25.520 --> 02:04:27.520 of things like over in Gaza when you hear about 2124 02:04:27.520 --> 02:04:31.119 the crazy you know, murder drones over there and stuff, 2125 02:04:31.119 --> 02:04:33.479 and it's like they're trying out same thing with Ukraine, 2126 02:04:33.520 --> 02:04:36.600 where it's like when anytime there's a a a theater 2127 02:04:36.800 --> 02:04:38.920 where you know there's gonna be death and destruction, it's like, 2128 02:04:38.960 --> 02:04:40.840 oh cool, time to try out new toys, we can 2129 02:04:40.880 --> 02:04:43.359 do kind of whatever here. And that kind of feels 2130 02:04:43.479 --> 02:04:46.479 like sort of almost what's going on with Waco. I mean, 2131 02:04:46.600 --> 02:04:50.279 obviously in the lead up to that, now that's the now, 2132 02:04:50.359 --> 02:04:52.800 that's the time for them to Oh cool, we get 2133 02:04:52.840 --> 02:04:55.439 to try out all of our all of our interrogation 2134 02:04:55.680 --> 02:04:59.439 methods and or not even interrogation methods are are I 2135 02:04:59.439 --> 02:05:02.720 don't even know what just mind fucking methods and then 2136 02:05:02.840 --> 02:05:05.199 you know, then once it actually kicks off, then oh cool, 2137 02:05:05.279 --> 02:05:07.439 Now we can try all our fun killing methods because 2138 02:05:07.439 --> 02:05:09.159 obviously we'll get it, we'll get to that. But that's 2139 02:05:09.159 --> 02:05:11.159 when it looks like they were trying to kill people 2140 02:05:11.159 --> 02:05:13.880 who were trying to get away so as they were 2141 02:05:13.920 --> 02:05:14.600 burning to death. 2142 02:05:14.680 --> 02:05:20.039 So but anyways, going talking similar torture techniques used on 2143 02:05:20.159 --> 02:05:26.520 prisoners at Guantanamo Abu Greb, I mean, honestly like they 2144 02:05:26.600 --> 02:05:29.880 are recycled tactics that were later deployed, these techniques right 2145 02:05:30.000 --> 02:05:32.880 by the FBI siege of the Branch Davidians. I mean, 2146 02:05:32.960 --> 02:05:37.000 we're talking FBI agents blasting the Branch Davidians all night 2147 02:05:37.079 --> 02:05:43.960 with obnoxious sounds, screaming rabbits, crying seagulls, dentist drills, Nancy 2148 02:05:44.079 --> 02:05:48.479 Sinatra's these boots are made for walking. I found that interesting, 2149 02:05:51.199 --> 02:05:53.800 you know it's it's by the way, did you know 2150 02:05:53.960 --> 02:05:58.359 that the US military employed the same technique on Iraqi 2151 02:05:58.439 --> 02:06:03.199 prisoners of war using the theme song from the PBS 2152 02:06:03.359 --> 02:06:04.840 kids series Barney and Friends. 2153 02:06:06.159 --> 02:06:09.399 That's crazy, right, then, Steret goats. There's that one same 2154 02:06:09.439 --> 02:06:10.880 reason that yeah, I knew there was based on. 2155 02:06:10.960 --> 02:06:14.880 True, John Ronson was accurate as hell when he described 2156 02:06:14.920 --> 02:06:18.640 operations Stargate. That's what he was describing. These are the 2157 02:06:18.720 --> 02:06:22.439 mind work capabilities, and they have been employed as bizarre 2158 02:06:22.560 --> 02:06:26.159 torture methods on on all the really in all of 2159 02:06:26.199 --> 02:06:29.880 these different uh you know, strange theaters of war and 2160 02:06:30.079 --> 02:06:36.359 and really domestic precedent setting operations like Awaco became. But yeah, 2161 02:06:36.680 --> 02:06:41.000 I mean, at this point, it's it's just like right 2162 02:06:41.079 --> 02:06:44.199 when you when you're realizing that, hey, chill the fuck out. Sorry, 2163 02:06:44.239 --> 02:06:50.199 my dog's freaking out. Chill out. Uh So the Feds, 2164 02:06:50.239 --> 02:06:54.199 obviously they they put these they separate the women from 2165 02:06:54.239 --> 02:06:57.560 the children, obviously charged them, and then put them in 2166 02:06:57.640 --> 02:07:00.479 these five point chains and jumpsuits. And then they would 2167 02:07:00.479 --> 02:07:03.079 then obviously proceed to force these women to stand out 2168 02:07:03.119 --> 02:07:06.239 in front of the Davidian's home calling for them to 2169 02:07:06.279 --> 02:07:11.359 come out. During the first week, the FBI would send 2170 02:07:11.359 --> 02:07:13.720 a video camera into the house in order to show 2171 02:07:13.840 --> 02:07:17.439 that there were no hostages, that people were staying inside 2172 02:07:17.479 --> 02:07:24.079 on their own free will. So it's just like, you know, 2173 02:07:24.239 --> 02:07:28.039 the group they recorded a videotape that included Koresh introducing 2174 02:07:28.079 --> 02:07:31.560 his children and his wives. Write that infamous tape to 2175 02:07:31.640 --> 02:07:36.439 the negotiators and several members obviously making statements in the video, 2176 02:07:37.439 --> 02:07:41.039 including one by David, that led to concern that the 2177 02:07:41.199 --> 02:07:45.600 tapes released to the media could actually potentially gain sympathy 2178 02:07:45.680 --> 02:07:48.800 for the group and David himself, And so they no 2179 02:07:49.000 --> 02:07:54.199 longer allowed this to take place, and two attorneys were 2180 02:07:54.239 --> 02:07:58.119 then allowed entry into the house and upon examining the evidence, 2181 02:07:59.239 --> 02:08:02.439 they tell the group that they would have a strong 2182 02:08:02.560 --> 02:08:06.239 case against the government. That's what happened when the attorneys 2183 02:08:06.279 --> 02:08:09.800 went in, and as the siege wore on. You have 2184 02:08:09.880 --> 02:08:13.279 two opposing factions that formed within the FBI. This is 2185 02:08:13.439 --> 02:08:17.880 according to the official line. One believed the only solution 2186 02:08:18.119 --> 02:08:23.239 was through negotiation, the other believed the only solution was force. 2187 02:08:24.239 --> 02:08:28.199 So aggressive techniques started to be used, like sleep deprivation, 2188 02:08:28.439 --> 02:08:32.520 for example, or all night broadcasts of audio recordings playing 2189 02:08:32.600 --> 02:08:37.640 the screams of rabbits being slaughtered in Buddhist chanting. FBI 2190 02:08:37.760 --> 02:08:41.159 had obtained from the US Army nine Bradley fighting vehicles 2191 02:08:41.199 --> 02:08:44.479 equipped with ferret rounds and cs gas grenades, and five 2192 02:08:44.600 --> 02:08:50.399 tanks they would call combat engineer vehicles. They are I 2193 02:08:50.479 --> 02:08:55.239 mean they're used at first to destroy the Davidian's cars, 2194 02:08:56.399 --> 02:08:59.800 and then they destroyed the perimeter fencing and the outbuildings. 2195 02:09:00.840 --> 02:09:04.479 They disrespected the grave of one of the dead Branch Davidians, 2196 02:09:04.560 --> 02:09:10.720 despite protests from the FBI negotiators. The Dallas Morning News 2197 02:09:11.279 --> 02:09:15.479 they claimed that FBI planners considered using snipers to kill 2198 02:09:15.600 --> 02:09:19.800 David Koresh and other key Branch Davidians due to impatience 2199 02:09:19.840 --> 02:09:23.399 around Koresh refusing to speak to them between April fifth 2200 02:09:23.800 --> 02:09:26.119 through the thirteenth because of the passover. 2201 02:09:28.399 --> 02:09:30.560 By the way, I did want to mention the Bradley 2202 02:09:31.039 --> 02:09:34.600 Bradley thing, So that's super that's a point that matters. 2203 02:09:34.640 --> 02:09:36.960 I remember, I don't remember the specific quote or anything 2204 02:09:36.960 --> 02:09:39.800 about it, but I believe there is some claim that 2205 02:09:40.119 --> 02:09:42.359 McVeigh was like that was one thing he pointed to 2206 02:09:42.479 --> 02:09:44.000 that he was upset about, like the idea of that, 2207 02:09:44.199 --> 02:09:47.439 like the the because he was he was a Bradley gunner. 2208 02:09:47.880 --> 02:09:49.680 That's what he did. So he then he comes back 2209 02:09:49.720 --> 02:09:52.800 home and then now he sees these Bradley's that he 2210 02:09:53.039 --> 02:09:55.439 was over in the Gulf War using to kill Iraqis, 2211 02:09:55.479 --> 02:09:58.079 and he's field some kind of fucked up way about. 2212 02:09:58.119 --> 02:10:00.239 There's a lot that seemed to imply that he didn't 2213 02:10:00.239 --> 02:10:02.119 seem too keen on the stuff going on over there 2214 02:10:02.159 --> 02:10:04.720 after the fact, kind of a bit of a bleeding heart. 2215 02:10:05.239 --> 02:10:07.159 And yeah, then here you go. And then now you 2216 02:10:07.199 --> 02:10:09.239 have a Now they're using it over in Waco, and 2217 02:10:09.479 --> 02:10:10.840 uh what what happens? 2218 02:10:11.600 --> 02:10:11.720 Then? 2219 02:10:11.800 --> 02:10:13.840 Yeah, then they use Waco as a president for the 2220 02:10:13.840 --> 02:10:15.399 Oklahoma City bombing years later. 2221 02:10:15.600 --> 02:10:19.920 So yeah, yeah, and of course McVeigh himself showing up 2222 02:10:20.039 --> 02:10:23.399 at Waco to pass out flyers, right, yeah, yep, and 2223 02:10:24.279 --> 02:10:27.760 in which that itself, I mean, wow, Yeah, that's kind 2224 02:10:27.800 --> 02:10:31.640 of stunning as far as a revelation being concerned, as 2225 02:10:31.640 --> 02:10:37.960 far as you consider you know, yeah, exact cheap sheep 2226 02:10:38.000 --> 02:10:41.399 dipped operative you know, playing out some sort of Gladio 2227 02:10:41.840 --> 02:10:47.600 domestic terrorism scenario and is uh brought in at the 2228 02:10:47.720 --> 02:10:52.399 perfect moment with a camera in a very strange time 2229 02:10:52.479 --> 02:10:55.119 and history where that's a little bit unique, you know, 2230 02:10:55.680 --> 02:10:59.600 I would say, but uh, I mean that it's still 2231 02:11:00.720 --> 02:11:02.760 we'll get in. I mean, I don't know, Well, you 2232 02:11:03.159 --> 02:11:04.520 let me know by the end of this what you 2233 02:11:04.600 --> 02:11:09.520 want to do. But uh, there's honestly, again like this 2234 02:11:10.479 --> 02:11:13.359 this is one of the It truly is the best 2235 02:11:13.399 --> 02:11:16.760 example of yeah, of just. 2236 02:11:18.079 --> 02:11:19.479 You know, I say we bring it in for a 2237 02:11:19.560 --> 02:11:21.560 neat landing with the next like fifteen minutes. I think so, 2238 02:11:21.760 --> 02:11:24.199 and then we if we want to comment on it 2239 02:11:24.279 --> 02:11:25.920 more like say when it comes out later in our 2240 02:11:25.960 --> 02:11:28.319 morning show or something. We definitely have plenty we can 2241 02:11:28.399 --> 02:11:29.039 talk about. 2242 02:11:28.880 --> 02:11:35.159 Later to discuss. So crazy, but yeah, yeah, yeah, but anyway, 2243 02:11:35.239 --> 02:11:41.359 so it makes a lot more sense. But so we 2244 02:11:41.560 --> 02:11:44.439 we have these ferret rounds, these cs gas grenades, these 2245 02:11:44.479 --> 02:11:49.199 Bradley fighting vehicles and five tanks right combat engineered vehicles 2246 02:11:49.640 --> 02:11:53.439 that were used to destroy the Davidian's cars, the perimeter 2247 02:11:53.600 --> 02:11:58.279 fencing out buildings obviously completely disrespect you know this, this 2248 02:11:59.000 --> 02:12:04.359 uh dead and buried Branch Davidian as far as you 2249 02:12:04.439 --> 02:12:07.880 know these these But the point being here is that 2250 02:12:07.960 --> 02:12:12.520 they were considering, just like with Ruby Ridge, actually using 2251 02:12:12.600 --> 02:12:15.560 snipers to kill David Koresh and these key Branch Davidian 2252 02:12:15.600 --> 02:12:22.239 members and obviously knowing Lonhoryucci's involvement here, then it actually 2253 02:12:22.560 --> 02:12:25.720 legitimately does become a direct connection to Ruby Ridge. And 2254 02:12:26.640 --> 02:12:33.359 as far as the the sniper team from forget the 2255 02:12:33.479 --> 02:12:39.439 location that they had been deployed from Quantico, Yeah, Virginia. 2256 02:12:39.840 --> 02:12:43.680 So despite David repeatedly denying any plan from mass suicide. 2257 02:12:44.239 --> 02:12:47.079 Of course, the FBI would make public claims that the 2258 02:12:47.199 --> 02:12:51.600 group they might commit mass suicide right like what had happened, 2259 02:12:51.880 --> 02:12:55.000 throwing that out there, and they even use the same 2260 02:12:55.399 --> 02:13:00.800 they reference Jonestown. Hey, you know, could just end up 2261 02:13:00.880 --> 02:13:05.640 like Jonestown looks like he shares all the same qualities 2262 02:13:05.720 --> 02:13:07.279 of a Jim Jones. 2263 02:13:07.479 --> 02:13:09.880 Which was one real quick one thing we didn't mention. 2264 02:13:10.000 --> 02:13:12.479 I do think it's worthwhile mentioning. I don't not something 2265 02:13:12.520 --> 02:13:15.720 when you linger on, but I do think it's a matters. 2266 02:13:15.920 --> 02:13:18.359 One of one of the biggest reasons that Koresh point 2267 02:13:18.439 --> 02:13:21.159 to and why we had these long drawn out like 2268 02:13:21.800 --> 02:13:23.880 fifty one, because they did get him down to, like 2269 02:13:23.920 --> 02:13:25.840 I believe, negotiating to were like, oh, we'd all come 2270 02:13:25.880 --> 02:13:26.119 out this. 2271 02:13:26.279 --> 02:13:26.680 That was. 2272 02:13:26.960 --> 02:13:30.560 It was after he translated his seventh Seal, which from 2273 02:13:30.600 --> 02:13:32.960 my recollection of a long time looking in the Bible, 2274 02:13:33.399 --> 02:13:36.239 I remember reading Revelation forever ago when I was a kid, 2275 02:13:36.680 --> 02:13:38.760 and I believe I remember something in the in the 2276 02:13:38.800 --> 02:13:41.680 Book of Revelation, there's things about seven seals or something, 2277 02:13:41.760 --> 02:13:43.600 and so a lot of people over time to try 2278 02:13:43.640 --> 02:13:45.800 to interpret that, and I believe he was one of them, 2279 02:13:45.920 --> 02:13:48.239 and supposed I believe he'd interpret the other six and 2280 02:13:48.319 --> 02:13:50.079 so he's working the last seven. And that was the 2281 02:13:50.159 --> 02:13:52.319 whole thing of like, oh just wait a minute, I 2282 02:13:52.399 --> 02:13:56.359 gotta finish my seal, and like I believe even the 2283 02:13:56.479 --> 02:13:59.920 whole like apocalyptic you know, military coming in was even 2284 02:14:00.079 --> 02:14:03.720 part of his whole seals or whatever the hell you know, 2285 02:14:04.000 --> 02:14:06.600 you know, roll out in his head. So like with 2286 02:14:06.800 --> 02:14:09.319 them coming in his head was like, oh, now is 2287 02:14:09.359 --> 02:14:11.199 the time for me? With a seventh seal in his head. 2288 02:14:11.239 --> 02:14:14.159 So obviously I don't know enough about the internal logic 2289 02:14:14.239 --> 02:14:17.199 of the Davidians, but yeah, yeah. 2290 02:14:17.560 --> 02:14:23.319 Yeah, it was expected by the exactly themselves, and it, yeah, 2291 02:14:23.319 --> 02:14:28.279 it became really a preordained outcome. They very much believed 2292 02:14:28.359 --> 02:14:32.560 that this would they would become martyrs, like honestly, and 2293 02:14:32.680 --> 02:14:35.439 but they it's strange. I mean, again, there's a reason 2294 02:14:35.520 --> 02:14:41.439 that he was actually prophesying the the legitimate timing of 2295 02:14:41.520 --> 02:14:44.159 these things and how they would actually take place. Right 2296 02:14:44.239 --> 02:14:46.279 where he's talking about tanks driving up and down the 2297 02:14:46.560 --> 02:14:51.199 w Ranch Road and and you know, the helicopters buzzing 2298 02:14:52.000 --> 02:14:57.720 Mount Carmel's facility, right and and so yeah, it's it's 2299 02:14:58.159 --> 02:15:02.000 very worthwhile and mentioning it. But he had a final 2300 02:15:02.079 --> 02:15:05.359 statement to the world, David Koresh and he released this 2301 02:15:05.720 --> 02:15:08.560 letter to his attorney on April fourteenth with the claim, 2302 02:15:09.119 --> 02:15:12.399 as you said, he's writing an interpretation of the Seventh 2303 02:15:12.439 --> 02:15:15.039 Seals of the Book of Revelation, but he promised to 2304 02:15:15.119 --> 02:15:19.279 exit the compound upon its completion. He says, I want 2305 02:15:19.319 --> 02:15:22.680 the people of this generation to be saved. I'm working 2306 02:15:22.840 --> 02:15:25.000 night and day to complete my final work of the 2307 02:15:25.039 --> 02:15:28.840 writing out of these seals. I thank my father he 2308 02:15:28.920 --> 02:15:31.560 has finally granted me the chance to do this. It 2309 02:15:31.600 --> 02:15:34.319 will bring new lights and hope to many, and they 2310 02:15:34.359 --> 02:15:37.319 will not have to deal with me the person. I 2311 02:15:37.359 --> 02:15:40.000 will demand the first manuscript of the seals be given 2312 02:15:40.039 --> 02:15:43.399 to you. Many scholars and religious leaders will wish to 2313 02:15:43.439 --> 02:15:46.560 have copies for examination. I will keep a copy with me. 2314 02:15:47.399 --> 02:15:49.520 As soon as I can see that people like Jim 2315 02:15:49.640 --> 02:15:53.000 Tabor and Phil Arnold have a copy, I will come 2316 02:15:53.079 --> 02:15:55.720 out and then you can do your thing with this beast. 2317 02:15:57.880 --> 02:16:02.840 Within the FBI, it was obviously a lot of frustration 2318 02:16:04.199 --> 02:16:07.399 because more of this, as they viewed it was a 2319 02:16:07.520 --> 02:16:11.399 stain becoming a stain on the agencies involved, and so 2320 02:16:12.399 --> 02:16:15.039 you had some agents claiming this letter was a delayed 2321 02:16:15.119 --> 02:16:18.840 tactic while others saw it as a breakthrough. So again 2322 02:16:18.880 --> 02:16:22.119 you see this kind of you know, this fracturing between 2323 02:16:23.399 --> 02:16:27.760 being willing to negotiate and wanting to come to some 2324 02:16:27.920 --> 02:16:33.079 sort of tactical conclusion. And in the end, there was 2325 02:16:33.159 --> 02:16:35.760 a decision made to act and the fifty one day 2326 02:16:35.799 --> 02:16:39.200 siege would come to an end early in the morning 2327 02:16:39.239 --> 02:16:43.000 April nineteenth, after the FBI hostage rescue team had their 2328 02:16:43.079 --> 02:16:48.559 recommendations to mount a full tactical assault on the compound 2329 02:16:48.920 --> 02:16:55.879 approved by newly appointed Attorney General Janet Reno. Reno, obviously 2330 02:16:56.319 --> 02:16:59.920 usual suspect, reportedly told President Bill Clinton at the time 2331 02:17:00.000 --> 02:17:03.079 and that the FBI hostage rescue team was tired of waiting, 2332 02:17:03.799 --> 02:17:07.120 that the standoff was costing over a million dollars per week. 2333 02:17:08.440 --> 02:17:11.319 She also cited false claims made by the hostage rescue 2334 02:17:11.360 --> 02:17:16.680 team that child sexual abuse and mass suicide were imminent, 2335 02:17:18.040 --> 02:17:22.680 although HRT would later officially deny making said claim. So 2336 02:17:23.440 --> 02:17:27.719 then you have Jim Bouvard putting in it in perfect terms, 2337 02:17:28.239 --> 02:17:32.680 right because he explains that shortly before the Waco showdown, 2338 02:17:33.280 --> 02:17:37.760 you have the US government signing an International Chemical Weapons 2339 02:17:37.840 --> 02:17:42.520 Convention treaty pledging never to use nerve agents, mustard gas, 2340 02:17:42.760 --> 02:17:47.120 and other compounds, including tear gas, against enemy soldiers. But 2341 02:17:47.319 --> 02:17:50.799 this treaty contained a loophole permitting governments to gas their 2342 02:17:50.879 --> 02:17:55.600 own people. So on April nineteenth, ninety three, the FBI 2343 02:17:55.719 --> 02:18:00.000 pumped cs gas and methyl chloride, a potentially lethal flammable combination, 2344 02:18:00.520 --> 02:18:05.399 into the Davidian's residence for six hours, disregarding explicit warnings 2345 02:18:05.479 --> 02:18:10.040 that CS gas should not be used indoors. They should 2346 02:18:10.040 --> 02:18:12.840 have learned this, by the way, in the Patty Hurst 2347 02:18:13.319 --> 02:18:17.639 the LAPD that huge firefight in Los Angeles, when when 2348 02:18:17.680 --> 02:18:20.559 the Patty Hurst situation was playing out, what did they do? 2349 02:18:21.360 --> 02:18:24.079 They've burned that motherfucker down. That is exactly they played 2350 02:18:24.120 --> 02:18:28.799 out this exact same scenario. They had no reason to 2351 02:18:28.959 --> 02:18:32.719 not effectively understand the strategic outcome of this. You know. 2352 02:18:33.520 --> 02:18:40.319 So Stephen Schiff, he declares that, and he's a representative, right, 2353 02:18:41.479 --> 02:18:45.120 a government representative who he claims that the deaths of 2354 02:18:45.280 --> 02:18:48.959 dozens of men, women, and children can be directly and 2355 02:18:49.159 --> 02:18:52.040 indirectly attributable to the use of this gas and the 2356 02:18:52.120 --> 02:18:56.799 way it was injected by the FBI chemistry professor George 2357 02:18:56.959 --> 02:19:00.040 Uhlig testified to Congress in ninety five that the the 2358 02:19:00.200 --> 02:19:05.319 FBI gas attack suffocated the children early on may have 2359 02:19:05.440 --> 02:19:11.159 converted their poorly ventilized bunker into a ventilated bunker, into 2360 02:19:11.239 --> 02:19:14.559 an area similar to one of the gas chambers used 2361 02:19:14.559 --> 02:19:19.200 by the Nazis at Auschwitz. So this is the result. 2362 02:19:19.840 --> 02:19:24.319 And these abrams tanks driven by FBI agents battered the 2363 02:19:24.399 --> 02:19:31.680 davidians homes repeatedly, loudspeakers endlessly broadcasting this is not an assault. 2364 02:19:33.280 --> 02:19:36.360 Prior to the fire, the tanks had collapsed twenty percent 2365 02:19:36.399 --> 02:19:39.319 of the building atop its residents, and the FBI planned 2366 02:19:39.360 --> 02:19:45.280 to totally demolish the home. Grenade launschers, Yeah, exactly. Grenade 2367 02:19:45.319 --> 02:19:48.239 launchers on the tanks and other armored vehicles fired almost 2368 02:19:48.319 --> 02:19:51.159 four hundred ferret rounds of cs gas through the thin 2369 02:19:51.639 --> 02:19:55.360 wooden walls in the windows of the building. Yet Attorney 2370 02:19:55.399 --> 02:19:59.280 General Janet Reno later insisted, we didn't attack. We tried 2371 02:19:59.280 --> 02:20:03.920 to exercise every restraint possible to avoid violence. The FBI 2372 02:20:04.040 --> 02:20:07.559 speedily asserted that the Davidians ignited the fire that consumed 2373 02:20:07.559 --> 02:20:13.360 their dwelling. The following day, Bill Clinton, deriding suggestions that 2374 02:20:13.440 --> 02:20:18.159 Attorney General Reno should resign because some religious fanatics murdered themselves. 2375 02:20:19.600 --> 02:20:24.920 That's what he's deriding this, this claim, right that the 2376 02:20:25.000 --> 02:20:29.600 suggestion that she should resign. Why why should she resign 2377 02:20:29.840 --> 02:20:35.520 because some religious fanatics murdered themselves. Six years later, independent 2378 02:20:35.600 --> 02:20:39.280 investigators found pyrotechnic ferret rounds the FBI fired at the 2379 02:20:39.360 --> 02:20:44.040 scene prior to the flames erupting. Attorney General Reno lashed 2380 02:20:44.079 --> 02:20:47.600 out at the FBI for destroying her credibility, but neither 2381 02:20:47.680 --> 02:20:51.159 she nor FBI officials suffered any consequences from the collapse 2382 02:20:51.200 --> 02:20:52.200 of the official narrative. 2383 02:20:52.719 --> 02:20:55.440 You know, the only people who severed consequences the victims 2384 02:20:55.520 --> 02:20:57.799 the brand want between death and they actually deal with 2385 02:20:57.959 --> 02:20:58.920 legal consequences. 2386 02:20:59.319 --> 02:21:02.520 Yeah, man, mm hm, that's. 2387 02:21:02.360 --> 02:21:05.280 A that's the deal. And two years later, for no 2388 02:21:05.440 --> 02:21:09.399 reason whatsoever, a building in the in the the Alpha 2389 02:21:09.440 --> 02:21:13.079 pemer Or building went down. Obviously, it's a little more 2390 02:21:13.159 --> 02:21:16.799 complicated than just, you know, it being as simple as 2391 02:21:17.159 --> 02:21:19.680 upset people about it. But uh, even if that were 2392 02:21:19.760 --> 02:21:21.920 the case, it's kind of like, well, I mean, I 2393 02:21:22.719 --> 02:21:25.840 you know, I get it, Like obviously I don't accept that, 2394 02:21:26.239 --> 02:21:29.639 you know, one one awful act doesn't justify another awful act. 2395 02:21:30.399 --> 02:21:34.319 But it's kind of like, hey, you know, blowback right 2396 02:21:35.159 --> 02:21:35.639 in a way. 2397 02:21:36.319 --> 02:21:41.799 And but here's the here's the I mean even more 2398 02:21:42.440 --> 02:21:49.440 just of a talk about, you know, just completely destroying 2399 02:21:49.879 --> 02:21:53.639 the credibility of that official narrative. I mean, we're talking 2400 02:21:53.680 --> 02:21:57.879 about the use of right control agents in this indoor 2401 02:21:58.000 --> 02:22:02.399 setting that is very much understood. What again, the consequential 2402 02:22:02.440 --> 02:22:06.159 outcome will be This fire development analysis provided in a 2403 02:22:06.280 --> 02:22:11.280 report to the Deputy Attorney General. It claims that three 2404 02:22:11.399 --> 02:22:16.040 fires around noon had broken out that day almost simultaneously 2405 02:22:16.399 --> 02:22:19.319 in different parts of the building and spread very very quickly. 2406 02:22:20.040 --> 02:22:23.360 Only nine people escaped the building during the fire, and 2407 02:22:23.479 --> 02:22:29.040 Branch Davidian survivors, along with other explosives experts, maintained that 2408 02:22:29.159 --> 02:22:33.760 the fires were either accidentally or deliberately started by the assault, 2409 02:22:34.600 --> 02:22:38.280 possibly by the types of pyrotechnic rounds the FBI lied 2410 02:22:38.319 --> 02:22:41.280 to the public about using for six years after Waco, 2411 02:22:42.399 --> 02:22:45.879 so the government still maintains that the fires were deliberately 2412 02:22:45.920 --> 02:22:49.520 started by the Branch Davidians. The official line is that 2413 02:22:49.639 --> 02:22:53.120 they didn't know CS gas was strictly manufactured to only 2414 02:22:53.239 --> 02:22:56.479 be used as a riot control agent in an outdoor setting, 2415 02:22:56.879 --> 02:23:00.559 although they had learned that when the LAP and the 2416 02:23:00.680 --> 02:23:04.719 intelligence apparatus right would do a loyalty utilize this very 2417 02:23:04.799 --> 02:23:10.120 strategy in Los Angeles with the Patty Hurst obviously that case, 2418 02:23:10.680 --> 02:23:13.360 but with donald sink you to freeze, so it behaves 2419 02:23:13.520 --> 02:23:17.600 very similarly to that of a grain silo, obviously in 2420 02:23:17.719 --> 02:23:22.559 a controlled environment, creating an extreme fire hazard. So some 2421 02:23:23.120 --> 02:23:26.520 people explain the building as being prepared by previous holes 2422 02:23:26.639 --> 02:23:29.680 deliberately plunged through the top of the structure in order 2423 02:23:29.760 --> 02:23:33.000 to create airflow and basically stage the house as a 2424 02:23:33.079 --> 02:23:36.319 pot belly stove, primed and ready to go off. All 2425 02:23:36.440 --> 02:23:41.639 they needed to do was provide the spark. I mean, 2426 02:23:42.559 --> 02:23:45.719 that's what they did. Man. Twenty eight children died attempting 2427 02:23:45.760 --> 02:23:48.680 to flee into the underground bunker when the tanks crushed 2428 02:23:48.680 --> 02:23:51.680 the ceilings above them, killing some of the children due 2429 02:23:51.680 --> 02:23:52.760 to blunt force trauma. 2430 02:23:54.479 --> 02:23:54.959 I mean. 2431 02:23:57.120 --> 02:24:01.760 Others, you know, because of the and find space. Died 2432 02:24:01.799 --> 02:24:05.639 of asphyxiation due to the CS gas, which would show 2433 02:24:05.719 --> 02:24:09.440 on their autopsies as dying of cyanide poisoning. What do 2434 02:24:09.520 --> 02:24:15.559 you think of jonestown Patty Hurst? They had cyanide, cyanide 2435 02:24:15.600 --> 02:24:18.639 laced bullets or tipped bullets and Patty Hurst and then 2436 02:24:19.000 --> 02:24:24.159 what all the all the victims bodies in Jonestown. Well, 2437 02:24:24.200 --> 02:24:26.319 I mean, I guess none of them really had sin 2438 02:24:26.440 --> 02:24:29.159 I poisoning, I'll be honest, right after we went into 2439 02:24:29.239 --> 02:24:33.200 all those details of of the the metacological report there 2440 02:24:33.280 --> 02:24:37.319 by doctor Leslie Muttu. But still there's that direct connection 2441 02:24:37.600 --> 02:24:42.200 involving this strange cyanide connection, right, this strange overlapping threat 2442 02:24:42.239 --> 02:24:47.239 resurfacing and all these very obvious covert agendas that have 2443 02:24:47.399 --> 02:24:49.239 played out in front of us and then been kind 2444 02:24:49.280 --> 02:24:54.559 of reinterpreted and and and and you know, represented and 2445 02:24:54.760 --> 02:24:57.799 repackaged to the public in a way that would be 2446 02:24:58.680 --> 02:25:04.719 uh just like you know, plausible and in some sort 2447 02:25:04.760 --> 02:25:09.239 of way, you know, susceptible to their framework of how 2448 02:25:09.360 --> 02:25:14.879 the power paradigm functions. Yeah, it's interesting. But so you 2449 02:25:15.000 --> 02:25:19.200 have these bodies due to the cyanide poisoning after the 2450 02:25:19.280 --> 02:25:26.040 autopsies were effectively performed, this cyanide poisoning caused their spines 2451 02:25:26.120 --> 02:25:30.319 to forcefully contort, leaving their bodies you know, very deformed, right, 2452 02:25:30.879 --> 02:25:33.479 And that was something that was lacking in the Jonestown bodies, 2453 02:25:33.479 --> 02:25:37.120 which is why there was so much skepticism there regarding cyanide, 2454 02:25:37.159 --> 02:25:40.319 So the FBI would claim that in the final moments 2455 02:25:40.360 --> 02:25:44.079 before death, members of the group had murdered their children 2456 02:25:44.680 --> 02:25:49.520 brutally and then committed suicide. So officials claimed they had 2457 02:25:49.600 --> 02:25:53.319 audio recordings from surveillance devices that had covertly snuck into 2458 02:25:53.440 --> 02:25:56.239 that they had covertly snuck into the milk cartons that 2459 02:25:56.399 --> 02:25:59.760 spoiled in the first days of negotiations, proving that the 2460 02:26:00.079 --> 02:26:03.120 Videans conspired to start the fires using gasoline. 2461 02:26:04.360 --> 02:26:06.520 And if I recall correctly, I believe didn't we get 2462 02:26:06.520 --> 02:26:09.280 those later and those end up being like you can 2463 02:26:09.399 --> 02:26:11.719 interpret it that way, but it also can very easily 2464 02:26:11.840 --> 02:26:14.399 mean like it was like they were it was. It 2465 02:26:14.479 --> 02:26:16.200 could be something else that was mundane. I think it 2466 02:26:16.319 --> 02:26:20.879 was like lighting, like candles or something. It was something stupid. 2467 02:26:21.239 --> 02:26:23.079 It was something really stupid that like if you'd have 2468 02:26:23.120 --> 02:26:24.559 to take it a way out of it, like you 2469 02:26:24.680 --> 02:26:25.760 could be like, no, this is what. 2470 02:26:26.200 --> 02:26:29.120 Yeah, it was only a transcript of the recordings that 2471 02:26:29.280 --> 02:26:32.799 was provided in the first place. Yeah, And survivors that 2472 02:26:32.959 --> 02:26:36.360 heard the supposed audio during the trial, they claimed this 2473 02:26:36.600 --> 02:26:39.399 was clearly a lie, and the recordings they heard proved nothing. 2474 02:26:39.840 --> 02:26:41.959 Yeah, exactly, that's what I was gonna exactly what you're 2475 02:26:41.959 --> 02:26:44.079 saying exact. I remember that I can't remember exactly what 2476 02:26:44.200 --> 02:26:47.120 was something along those lines, something like us or like 2477 02:26:47.200 --> 02:26:49.799 what yeah, once you see the transcript or here it 2478 02:26:49.920 --> 02:26:52.520 or whatever, you're like, no, this is nonsense. Like sure, 2479 02:26:52.799 --> 02:26:55.200 I guess you could, but like, I don't think that's 2480 02:26:55.280 --> 02:26:57.639 what they meant there. Like like the way they were talking, 2481 02:26:57.799 --> 02:26:59.520 I think it was like almost like they're trying to like, 2482 02:26:59.680 --> 02:27:02.440 you know, light candles or something stupid, and so it's 2483 02:27:02.479 --> 02:27:04.840 like they have them saying something about fire or something, 2484 02:27:05.280 --> 02:27:07.159 and so it's like if you interpret in a wildly 2485 02:27:07.280 --> 02:27:12.799 retarded way, you can be like okay, but uh yeah, 2486 02:27:12.959 --> 02:27:16.200 I mean, man, I mean we're at two and a 2487 02:27:16.239 --> 02:27:18.360 half hours. Then I think we hit it all. I 2488 02:27:18.440 --> 02:27:19.879 mean obviously, I think me and you have them more 2489 02:27:19.920 --> 02:27:22.040 to probably talk on another day about this, and there's 2490 02:27:22.040 --> 02:27:24.920 definitely weird things. But man, it's been a long night 2491 02:27:25.000 --> 02:27:26.360 and I think we gave a lot of people a 2492 02:27:26.399 --> 02:27:28.760 lot to think about and kind of you know, we've 2493 02:27:28.840 --> 02:27:31.719 covered all the main beats. I mean, there's definitely, like 2494 02:27:31.799 --> 02:27:33.440 I say, he said, if you do have an itch 2495 02:27:33.559 --> 02:27:36.280 for digging to more. I could recommend the Horton series 2496 02:27:36.399 --> 02:27:39.680 if you want this in a more succinct version. You 2497 02:27:39.760 --> 02:27:41.879 have your episode. Obviously we're going to a little more 2498 02:27:41.879 --> 02:27:46.040 stuff here. But uh yeah, Austin, let me know where 2499 02:27:46.040 --> 02:27:47.959 they can find you at. I appreciate you having you 2500 02:27:48.079 --> 02:27:50.799 on obviously me and you do regular shows. But that's 2501 02:27:51.040 --> 02:27:52.840 possible part of why I brought you on here knowing 2502 02:27:52.879 --> 02:27:55.879 we're about to have a big, a big bunch of 2503 02:27:56.000 --> 02:27:58.799 audience coming in here soon. So let them know where 2504 02:27:58.799 --> 02:28:01.239 they can find you at. Because while we do two 2505 02:28:01.319 --> 02:28:04.840 shows together, not all of our stuff is together, and 2506 02:28:04.959 --> 02:28:08.000 we have two separate channels. We just whenever it's the 2507 02:28:08.079 --> 02:28:10.399 shows we do together, we stream, we stream them to 2508 02:28:10.559 --> 02:28:13.040 both of our platforms. But you know, for example, right now, 2509 02:28:13.079 --> 02:28:14.479 this episode I'm doing right now, it's like my I 2510 02:28:14.559 --> 02:28:16.600 do more like interviews type shows. You do more like 2511 02:28:16.719 --> 02:28:20.239 solo type content. So yeah, you let them know where 2512 02:28:20.239 --> 02:28:21.639 they can find you at. So you know, if you 2513 02:28:21.719 --> 02:28:23.959 want my stuff obviously, no way Jose show. But if 2514 02:28:23.959 --> 02:28:25.840 you want to awsome underclass podcast, let them know where 2515 02:28:25.879 --> 02:28:28.239 they can find that at and other places where they 2516 02:28:28.280 --> 02:28:29.680 can reach you at all. 2517 02:28:29.639 --> 02:28:35.639 Right, brother, Yeah, so obviously you know I'll give my plugs. 2518 02:28:35.639 --> 02:28:38.159 I swear to God, I have one final little type 2519 02:28:38.520 --> 02:28:41.200 and this won't be more than two minutes, I swear, 2520 02:28:41.799 --> 02:28:45.879 But it's it's at least a great way to kind 2521 02:28:45.879 --> 02:28:49.520 of kind of at least put this into some sort 2522 02:28:49.559 --> 02:28:53.440 of conclusive format, you know, in a way. Although we 2523 02:28:53.559 --> 02:28:57.239 did basically cover the most you know, prominent points that 2524 02:28:57.479 --> 02:29:02.760 were worthy of acknowledgment, but there's always more, and obviously 2525 02:29:03.200 --> 02:29:06.920 we had talked privately, there is much more of a 2526 02:29:08.319 --> 02:29:12.040 you know, of a wrinkle here that I was unexpecting, 2527 02:29:12.200 --> 02:29:14.879 but as far as it was very unexpected. But still 2528 02:29:15.000 --> 02:29:17.879 it seems to fall perfectly into place with the concept 2529 02:29:17.959 --> 02:29:22.799 of kind of how I'm realizing this very well established 2530 02:29:22.959 --> 02:29:25.360 network has been in place for far too long, and 2531 02:29:25.440 --> 02:29:29.040 that the usual suspects as we continually discuss, seem to resurface, 2532 02:29:29.120 --> 02:29:34.319 as yeah as being primarily a part of these clandestine 2533 02:29:34.319 --> 02:29:38.360 operations and the layered aspect of them what they're attempting 2534 02:29:38.360 --> 02:29:40.799 to achieve. So at a certain point we will get 2535 02:29:40.840 --> 02:29:44.159 into the layered aspects of what was going on with Waco, 2536 02:29:44.319 --> 02:29:47.079 because I do think that there's alternative theories out there 2537 02:29:47.479 --> 02:29:52.200 that might actually fill in a lot of holes and provide, 2538 02:29:53.200 --> 02:29:56.239 you know, again an interesting thread into a different avenue 2539 02:29:56.360 --> 02:30:01.879 of perspective regarding this entire event, which blows me away. 2540 02:30:02.159 --> 02:30:04.920 But again, so the point being here, how we can 2541 02:30:05.000 --> 02:30:07.680 kind of end this thing and tie this thing off 2542 02:30:08.239 --> 02:30:14.040 is basically just that you had obviously just mentioned you know, 2543 02:30:15.159 --> 02:30:19.239 the fires, you know obviously, and then you have the 2544 02:30:19.319 --> 02:30:23.159 recordings being provided from the mill cartons. But here's the 2545 02:30:23.239 --> 02:30:27.360 point that's very important because years later, by nineteen ninety nine, 2546 02:30:27.799 --> 02:30:30.959 former CIA officer Gene Colin had gone public with knowledge 2547 02:30:31.000 --> 02:30:34.680 of Special Forces being president at Waco overseeing the bloody conclusion. 2548 02:30:35.440 --> 02:30:37.719 Details were then given by the Dallas Morning News of 2549 02:30:37.760 --> 02:30:40.959 at least three Delta Force Commandos, members of a secret 2550 02:30:41.079 --> 02:30:44.479 army tactical unit, being present upfront and close and helping 2551 02:30:44.639 --> 02:30:46.959 the FBI and the final tear gas assault on the 2552 02:30:47.000 --> 02:30:51.280 Branch Davidian compound. He continued, saying that he heard the 2553 02:30:51.399 --> 02:30:54.559 detailed accounts of the military's active involvement from three or 2554 02:30:54.600 --> 02:30:57.280 four anti terrorist Delta Commandos as he worked with them 2555 02:30:57.360 --> 02:31:00.559 on an overseas assignment in ninety three. I have much 2556 02:31:00.680 --> 02:31:03.879 more of a concrete connection to this, but I can't 2557 02:31:03.879 --> 02:31:05.959 get into it now, So with that. 2558 02:31:06.120 --> 02:31:09.639 That's a great reason for people to check out our 2559 02:31:09.680 --> 02:31:12.920 morning shows and our weekly live call in show because 2560 02:31:12.920 --> 02:31:15.200 we do we do ME and you do a Monday 2561 02:31:15.239 --> 02:31:19.440 through Friday. This is on both of our channels. You know, 2562 02:31:19.600 --> 02:31:22.440 sometimes we do together, sometimes you sometimes me. Usually you 2563 02:31:22.600 --> 02:31:23.920 have like the beginning of the week. I have like 2564 02:31:24.000 --> 02:31:26.319 the end of the week where I'm running it, but 2565 02:31:26.600 --> 02:31:28.799 it goes on both our channels, the morning Dump, and 2566 02:31:28.879 --> 02:31:31.159 then also we have our weekly live call in show. 2567 02:31:31.879 --> 02:31:34.680 Our morning shows at ten am Eastern are our live 2568 02:31:34.799 --> 02:31:37.479 call in shows on Tuesdays at nine thirty pm Eastern. 2569 02:31:37.520 --> 02:31:39.319 But if you want to make Collins, that's the place 2570 02:31:39.360 --> 02:31:40.440 to do it where you can do. But yeah, this 2571 02:31:40.520 --> 02:31:42.760 is definitely we're gonna have to definitely continue this conversation 2572 02:31:42.879 --> 02:31:45.520 on one of those two we have already dead tomorrow, 2573 02:31:45.639 --> 02:31:47.920 so probably the call in show, although I don't know 2574 02:31:47.959 --> 02:31:50.200 if we'll fit it in with our guests, but yeah, 2575 02:31:50.600 --> 02:31:52.440 I'll let you finish your point. But I was just 2576 02:31:52.520 --> 02:31:54.879 going out that is That's definitely we're definitely gonna talk 2577 02:31:54.879 --> 02:31:56.719 about this more because I am definitely fucking interested. 2578 02:31:57.479 --> 02:31:59.760 It's I'm telling you, as soon as I drop a 2579 02:31:59.799 --> 02:32:02.600 couple pull of I'm gonna draw some fucking truth bombs 2580 02:32:02.639 --> 02:32:06.120 on yours that I discovered today that I was entirely 2581 02:32:06.200 --> 02:32:09.280 unaware of that connects directly in with Waco. So uh, 2582 02:32:09.399 --> 02:32:11.360 it's it's something that we're gonna have a lot of 2583 02:32:11.399 --> 02:32:15.280 fun with in the very near future. But obviously, the 2584 02:32:15.399 --> 02:32:18.879 way I describe it in my episode, I say, you know, 2585 02:32:19.120 --> 02:32:21.559 I asked the question, why would why would they do 2586 02:32:21.760 --> 02:32:24.799 such a thing, you know, to to these individuals right 2587 02:32:25.040 --> 02:32:27.600 of this, this this organization, this group, Why would they 2588 02:32:27.639 --> 02:32:28.600 do this to these people? 2589 02:32:29.360 --> 02:32:29.479 Uh? 2590 02:32:29.760 --> 02:32:35.600 And and then I essentially I basically say, really just 2591 02:32:35.680 --> 02:32:38.879 by utilizing this statement right by by one of the 2592 02:32:40.200 --> 02:32:42.840 FBI agents at Waco, because I felt like it, it 2593 02:32:43.040 --> 02:32:47.639 perfectly embodies the mindset. Even if there is an alternative 2594 02:32:47.719 --> 02:32:51.200 theory here that's far more plausible, this is the mindset. 2595 02:32:51.920 --> 02:32:55.879 And and he says, the FBI agent at Waco would say, 2596 02:32:56.719 --> 02:33:00.280 five thousand to one, those are the odds against us. 2597 02:33:01.200 --> 02:33:04.000 Five thousand people to every one officer of the law. 2598 02:33:04.879 --> 02:33:07.159 Do you know how we keep order with those odds? 2599 02:33:08.719 --> 02:33:12.159 Because people believe were more powerful than we are. We 2600 02:33:12.319 --> 02:33:16.120 project strength, and the people believe in that strength. When 2601 02:33:16.159 --> 02:33:18.639 we sit outside a place like this for weeks on end, 2602 02:33:18.959 --> 02:33:22.040 waiting for them to tire. We look weak in front 2603 02:33:22.079 --> 02:33:24.840 of the rest of the world, and every asshole with 2604 02:33:24.920 --> 02:33:28.639 a bomb kit starts getting ideas. This is more than 2605 02:33:28.680 --> 02:33:32.879 a situation. Now, this is a symbol. Are we the 2606 02:33:33.000 --> 02:33:36.559 kind of agency that coddles cop killers? And I feel 2607 02:33:36.639 --> 02:33:39.879 like that is a great example of the retaliatory nature 2608 02:33:39.959 --> 02:33:43.760 of and also just you know, Thibodeau put it in 2609 02:33:43.840 --> 02:33:46.680 the terms of like, you know, these these guys that 2610 02:33:46.799 --> 02:33:49.920 were extremely good athletes in high school and didn't really 2611 02:33:50.000 --> 02:33:52.280 make it in the pros to any real level, and 2612 02:33:52.319 --> 02:33:54.040 then we're like, what the fuck do I do it? 2613 02:33:54.079 --> 02:33:55.239 With all this pithy? 2614 02:33:55.959 --> 02:33:59.159 There's always the case. There's always the case. I mean 2615 02:33:59.680 --> 02:34:02.440 it even even the FEDS when they were at there's 2616 02:34:02.479 --> 02:34:04.360 like different types of FEDS. For one, there's like there 2617 02:34:04.399 --> 02:34:06.719 were there were the era. They're also different eras where 2618 02:34:06.719 --> 02:34:09.760 they felt more sophisticated. But like was it like Angleton 2619 02:34:09.840 --> 02:34:12.079 I think was like a poet or something some nonsense, 2620 02:34:12.120 --> 02:34:14.559 And it's like it's just like always it's always just 2621 02:34:14.639 --> 02:34:16.959 like they're just mediocre, because otherwise you wouldn't be a FED, 2622 02:34:17.319 --> 02:34:19.879 Like yeah, like like you know, why would you be 2623 02:34:19.920 --> 02:34:21.520 working for the government if you were worth a damn. 2624 02:34:21.600 --> 02:34:24.559 But anyways, Austin, I think we had this. We had 2625 02:34:24.559 --> 02:34:27.799 a good coverage of Waco today. I'm looking forward to, uh, 2626 02:34:27.920 --> 02:34:30.520 you know, hopefully the thing we were talking about drops 2627 02:34:30.559 --> 02:34:33.040 the following day after this. So you guys keep an 2628 02:34:33.040 --> 02:34:35.879 eye out, follow all of our socials and stuff, and 2629 02:34:36.239 --> 02:34:40.120 I'm sure you'll know. But Austin, where can they find you? 2630 02:34:40.159 --> 02:34:40.879 All right? 2631 02:34:40.920 --> 02:34:44.239 Brother? Yeah, you guys know, if you can financially support 2632 02:34:44.319 --> 02:34:47.159 me in any way, then obviously the Patreon dot com 2633 02:34:47.239 --> 02:34:49.799 slash The Underclass Podcast is the best way to do. 2634 02:34:49.959 --> 02:34:53.879 So there are certain incentives in place still at this moment, 2635 02:34:54.000 --> 02:34:57.520 and beyond that, I mean, just follow me at theater 2636 02:34:57.600 --> 02:35:02.159 thug awp on Twitter and the Underclass Podcast on Instagram, 2637 02:35:02.840 --> 02:35:05.319 and uh yeah, I'm excited for this week, man. 2638 02:35:05.440 --> 02:35:07.680 Hell yeah, dude, got a lot of week down the pipe. 2639 02:35:07.760 --> 02:35:08.600 Yeah yea yeah. 2640 02:35:08.600 --> 02:35:10.280 I mean by the time this comes out, I'll already 2641 02:35:10.280 --> 02:35:13.000 be hanging out with you. So that's fucking nope. But 2642 02:35:13.120 --> 02:35:15.760 I do wanna if people want to support this show, 2643 02:35:16.040 --> 02:35:19.000 uh you know, leave a like, share, subscribe, comment. I mean, hell, 2644 02:35:19.040 --> 02:35:20.719 that's all free. You don't even have to do anything there, 2645 02:35:20.959 --> 02:35:23.600 leave a five star review on iTunes or Spotify that's 2646 02:35:23.639 --> 02:35:25.879 also free. Helps out a long it goes a long way, 2647 02:35:26.360 --> 02:35:28.280 big deal. But if you do want to chip in 2648 02:35:28.319 --> 02:35:30.840 the buck, I do appreciate it, obviously, only if you 2649 02:35:30.920 --> 02:35:32.600 can afford it, you know, take care of you and 2650 02:35:32.680 --> 02:35:35.840 yours first. But pictaron dot Com slash no Way hooes 2651 02:35:35.879 --> 02:35:38.559 a twenty twenty the lowest levels two bucks that gives 2652 02:35:38.600 --> 02:35:40.760 you access to early episodes much like this one. This 2653 02:35:40.799 --> 02:35:42.719 one's gonna go out a little earlier than normal. Usually 2654 02:35:42.719 --> 02:35:44.639 they sit behind the paywall for a good few weeks, 2655 02:35:45.239 --> 02:35:47.280 maybe even up to including a month. I usually keep 2656 02:35:47.360 --> 02:35:49.600 out four behind the paywall. Try to shoot per one 2657 02:35:49.680 --> 02:35:51.319 to two a week is what I try to do, 2658 02:35:52.280 --> 02:35:54.040 you know. Then obviously I have my morning show, then 2659 02:35:54.040 --> 02:35:56.159 the live the call in show we do as well, 2660 02:35:56.319 --> 02:35:58.840 but all my other stuff is you know, that's how 2661 02:35:58.879 --> 02:36:00.360 I do it. So you know, if you want to 2662 02:36:00.360 --> 02:36:02.559 get that early stuff, that's the way to go. Also 2663 02:36:02.680 --> 02:36:05.239 you get to add free RSS feed there and then 2664 02:36:05.479 --> 02:36:08.120 also I get the video chat function on Me and 2665 02:36:08.280 --> 02:36:12.639 Austin's weekly Live Collin Show, So that's the second half 2666 02:36:12.639 --> 02:36:14.680 of that show. We take calls and if you're a patron. 2667 02:36:15.079 --> 02:36:17.120 At the low level of two Bucks, you get a 2668 02:36:17.440 --> 02:36:19.799 link and that allows you to get a video chat 2669 02:36:19.879 --> 02:36:22.040 function like where you can talk like me and Austin 2670 02:36:22.040 --> 02:36:25.200 aren't right now. Also, I have my highest level my sponsors. 2671 02:36:25.280 --> 02:36:27.760 Those are my highest level my Patreon. Those are my sponsors. 2672 02:36:27.799 --> 02:36:29.479 I give them a shout out every episode because I 2673 02:36:29.559 --> 02:36:31.680 love you guys. I have my co host'm Targang at 2674 02:36:31.760 --> 02:36:34.399 Targang Toad, also at Abrogate, D's at z O v 2675 02:36:34.559 --> 02:36:36.879 R e c K at Underscore and Vinzil. Also have 2676 02:36:36.959 --> 02:36:39.840 Tim Tuttle at John and Cleebold, then Will Bells Delicious, Blueberry, 2677 02:36:39.879 --> 02:36:43.040 Rabbi Wine, The Big Family Show, Tormente then at imwr 2678 02:36:43.120 --> 02:36:47.559 D Lover Yeah and with that. Guys also follow me 2679 02:36:47.600 --> 02:36:50.360 on Twitter at targer Gang Jose especially if you do 2680 02:36:50.479 --> 02:36:52.760 follow the morning show, tag me and stuff. That's where 2681 02:36:52.760 --> 02:36:54.920 I'll bring it up there and cover it give you 2682 02:36:55.000 --> 02:36:57.239 my take much a live more of like I have 2683 02:36:57.319 --> 02:37:01.280 almost a reaction to show slash research kind of you know, 2684 02:37:01.399 --> 02:37:03.600 hang out stuff. So it's a fun time. It's a 2685 02:37:03.680 --> 02:37:06.360 live call hang out. We dig into like some research, 2686 02:37:06.520 --> 02:37:09.120 you know, current events whatever, So it's kind of all 2687 02:37:09.159 --> 02:37:11.360 the place we call it the morning dump. And obviously 2688 02:37:11.360 --> 02:37:13.040 it's a play on words because ha ha, you poop 2689 02:37:13.079 --> 02:37:15.079 in the morning. But also it's like a dump, an 2690 02:37:15.120 --> 02:37:17.639 info dump, you know. People refer to things like that 2691 02:37:17.719 --> 02:37:19.639 as dumps, you know, like you know, I got like 2692 02:37:19.719 --> 02:37:21.879 a large file dump or something. That's what this is. 2693 02:37:22.360 --> 02:37:24.719 We're dumping info on you, that's what we're doing there. 2694 02:37:24.840 --> 02:37:27.799 So it's a fun time. But with that, guys, we're 2695 02:37:27.840 --> 02:37:30.639 gonna get out of here. I'll see you guys soon, 2696 02:37:31.680 --> 02:37:33.719 but yeah, make sure to you know, she should follow 2697 02:37:33.760 --> 02:37:35.639 the channel, you know, see what we're doing, and hopefully 2698 02:37:35.680 --> 02:37:37.200 I see you guys on one of these morning streams 2699 02:37:37.280 --> 02:37:39.680 or something. With that, we are out of here. Goodbye.