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Chump Chumbucasino dot com. 19 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.200 Nocess relieved by lock eighty plus storms editions plus what 20 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:01.880 I do Lot. 21 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.480 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 22 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:18.599 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 23 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:26.280 written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker DTK. Every week, 24 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.239 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 25 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.319 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 26 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:37.840 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 27 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:54.000 Good Evening. She was hired to nurse them back to health. Instead, 28 00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:58.560 she took their lives for months to Davida Dealysis Center 29 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:01.599 in Lufkin, Texas, had been baffled by the rising number 30 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:06.280 of deaths and injuries occurring in their clinic. In April alone, 31 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:09.960 they'd rushed thirty four patients to the hospital, but no 32 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:13.159 one expected such a horrific cause to be behind it all. 33 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:19.039 Kimberly Clark's Signs was a well liked licensed vocational nurse 34 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:22.439 at the center. The East Texas nurse was a mother 35 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.479 of two and known for her smiles and the story 36 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:29.479 she told to help patients past the time. But in 37 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:32.919 April twenty eight, two thousand and eight, witnesses came forward 38 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:36.520 to say that instead of life saving medication, they'd seen 39 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:41.639 Signs adding toxic bleach to IV ports. Turns out it 40 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.840 wasn't the first time. Once caught the shocking story of Signs, 41 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:50.120 murderous practices began to unravel. The book that we're featuring 42 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:54.159 this evening is Killer Nurse with my special guest, journalist 43 00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:58.039 and author John Fox. John. Welcome to the program and 44 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:01.360 thank you for the agreement interview John Fox John. 45 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:04.840 Thanks for having me, Dan, I appreciate you asking me. 46 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:09.400 Thank you very much. Incredible story, a real wild ride. 47 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:16.360 Congratulations on the book. Now you are a former I 48 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.800 found it very interesting you're a former Vietnam VET airborne 49 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:25.280 ranger and retired teacher. But I think the most interesting aspect, 50 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:29.000 maybe you can tell us you're a former detective. Tell 51 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:32.599 us what type of detective you were, and tell us 52 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.520 just a little bit about the about your past would 53 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:37.840 probably very important to this story. 54 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:41.800 Yeah, I was. I was in law enforcement for ten years. 55 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:46.319 I was a patrolman for a while. The last four 56 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:49.759 years I was a homicide detective, and I actually investigated 57 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:52.439 over three hundred homicides. Wow. 58 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:57.199 Yeah, that's quite the career in four years. That's pretty condensed. 59 00:03:58.199 --> 00:03:59.719 I never knew what I wanted to do when I 60 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:01.879 grew up, so I just kept doing other things. 61 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:07.280 That's great. Great way to approach things now, without giving 62 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:13.400 anything away, without why did you choose this particular case, 63 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:19.480 this particular story to write killer nurse tell us why? 64 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:24.120 Okay, as you know, I write, I write, I write 65 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:30.000 fiction to you, I write crime fiction. And actually a 66 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:32.360 lot of my fiction has done really well. I have 67 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:37.079 three best sellers. But when this came along, there was 68 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:40.160 a case from a couple of years before this one. 69 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:44.480 It was a cold case murder trial, and I set 70 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:48.160 to the court proceedings and everything thinking about writing a 71 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:52.879 true crime moment. I did all the paperwork and everything 72 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:56.279 all the trial, but in the end, I just didn't 73 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:00.399 think the case was I guess I I don't wanna 74 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:04.439 say glorious enough, but I just didn't think anybody would 75 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:09.680 really wanna read about it, right. And the place where 76 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:13.839 I live here is is real small, and opportunity don't 77 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:18.920 come around very often. And when this hit the news, 78 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:24.839 I recognized right off, cause I had been a homicide detective. 79 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:28.680 I recognized how unique this it. This was, This is 80 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:31.360 the most and I say this, but it's true. It's 81 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:35.480 the most unique crime in history. Nobody's there been accused, 82 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:43.160 charged and convicted and murdering people using bleach. And I 83 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:46.199 set back, and I looked at the news and everything, 84 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:50.959 and and I got some of the information, but it 85 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:54.279 was very sketchy at the time when it first broke. 86 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:57.720 Now looked and I said, you know, this is not 87 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:04.160 something I would wanna investigate. I recognized right off how 88 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:08.519 tough this was going to be. But if they were 89 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:15.279 able to and I knew this first broke as aggravated assaults, 90 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:20.759 not murders, it didn't turn to murders later on, as 91 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:23.759 far as the public knew. I have friends on the 92 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:27.240 left and police uparments, though, and I knew this was 93 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:29.160 going to turn into a murder investigation. 94 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:31.240 I see, I see. 95 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:34.879 And I knew right then that this was something that 96 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.519 I had to write just because of the uniqueness of it. 97 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:44.360 But it's right here in my backyard right exactly. Of course, 98 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.839 I didn't know anything about writing true crime either, but 99 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:47.879 I didn't stop me. 100 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:54.079 Well, you have the discipline of being a writer anyway, 101 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:57.439 and a successful writer, and so you already had that. 102 00:06:57.680 --> 00:06:59.759 So that's a little bit more than some people have. 103 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:03.360 So you're certainly not a novice. Now let's get to 104 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:06.959 this story here before we talk about Luffkin, and you 105 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:10.839 can describe this sort of somewhat small town place and 106 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:15.160 the corporation of the Vita corporation and this dallasis Center 107 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:18.199 and what goes on at this dialysis center. Before we 108 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:22.360 get to that, let's go back and talk about Kimberly 109 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:26.800 Clark Science. Who she was born as, and in what 110 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:32.000 circumstances she grew up. What was the background, as much 111 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:36.519 as could possibly have been found, Paint a portrait of 112 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:40.560 the early early life, on the conditions under which Kimberly 113 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.439 Clark grew up, so we can see if there is 114 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:48.199 any semblance of sense of this story and the inevitable outcome. 115 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:50.920 But tell us a little bit about the very beginnings 116 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:52.279 of Kimberly Clark Science. 117 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:55.639 Okay. First to do that, I need to tell you 118 00:07:55.680 --> 00:08:00.600 where she's from, because that really has a a lot 119 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:04.519 of bearing on what we know about Kimberly Clark Signs. 120 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:08.839 She was born and raised in an unincorporated community called 121 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:15.480 uh Pollock outside of Lufkin. Real small place, a really 122 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:21.079 close place, and not only a closed place, but she 123 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:25.720 comes from a family who has really closed up. What 124 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:31.199 do you bear? I mean, nobody knows a lot about them. 125 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:36.919 They keep to themselves. Their life really reviolves around a 126 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:41.440 church there in Pollock and the church people and everything. 127 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:47.799 They're kind of closed up and nobody to be honest 128 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:52.279 with you. Before she was for this broken the news. 129 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:58.320 Very few people knew who Kimery Clark science was matter 130 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:01.080 of fact, very few people still no. They know the name, 131 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:06.159 but very few people know who she is except for family, 132 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:12.600 and a lot of them don't talk, will not talk. 133 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:15.159 So it was. 134 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:19.639 Really it was really difficult finding a lot of information 135 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.840 on it. I'm going, I'm getting into it. She Uh, 136 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:27.919 she was raised there. She went to school in Pollack, 137 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:32.080 a school district called Central. She had she had her 138 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:35.720 older brother who was three years older than her. Her 139 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:41.639 mother works for Walmart and her father works for a 140 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:47.799 trucking company. And uh, they're not they're not poor. They 141 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:54.039 I would call them probably middle class or lower middle class. 142 00:09:54.840 --> 00:10:00.000 They live in they live on land that their parents 143 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:06.559 had and they just kept just handed down. And she 144 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:10.200 went to school to the to the eleventh grade in Central, 145 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:15.480 which is in Pollock. Then she got pregnant and quit 146 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:21.519 school and had a baby and got married and uh, 147 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:26.759 she was married I think three years, got a divorce 148 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:32.360 and went to work for a uh trucking company in Lufkin. 149 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:38.519 And so far after that point in her life, you 150 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:45.320 can't find anything bad, not a single thing except getting 151 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.039 pregnant and dropping out of high school, which in this 152 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:54.879 day and time is not considered bad. Uh. She met 153 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:57.799 a guy by the name of the Kevin Sins at 154 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:02.759 the trucking company, and she got pregnant again and they 155 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:07.519 got married. And from that point on, and I think 156 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:10.759 I am said something about it in the book, it 157 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:14.120 was almost like her life was in a vortex. Somebody 158 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:20.360 was flushing the toilet and down it went, and she 159 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:28.759 was in an accident. Uh. I guess about three or 160 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:32.639 four years before all this really started. And it was 161 00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:36.559 a serious accident, and she became addicted to pain medication. 162 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:40.120 What kind of accent the car accident? 163 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:41.120 Yes? 164 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:45.799 And how serious was How serious was the accident? 165 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:50.879 It was pretty serious. But she wasn't debilitated anything. But 166 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:55.759 she ended up she was okay physically okay, except for 167 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:56.799 the pain medication. 168 00:11:58.080 --> 00:11:58.440 Okay. 169 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:02.600 That is probably where her biggest downfalls start. 170 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:09.039 Okay. H What I was gonna ask is because the 171 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.440 church is very important in the support of the church, 172 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.519 and and really, if you really get a window of 173 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:18.000 the friends that they have made in this pollock, is 174 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:20.559 these people from this church? Now, what kind of church 175 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:23.840 is this is evangelical product? What type of religion is 176 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:27.120 practiced there? What? What is the church there? What is it? 177 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:32.440 I am not sure. I think it's one of the 178 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:35.000 South branch of the Pentecostal. 179 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:41.440 Okay, would you consider that these very fervent church as 180 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:50.360 opposed to may say more very yes and okay? So 181 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:57.039 a deeply religious family, notwithstanding, would say religious yes, okay 182 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.080 and conservative okay. 183 00:12:59.159 --> 00:12:59.360 Yes. 184 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:06.279 Now tell us before we well continue with Kimberly, you 185 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:09.559 say that she becomes addicted to painkillers. Tell us now 186 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.720 about this the Vita dialysis center. And the Vita is 187 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:16.440 a corporation, so tell us a little bit about that corporation. 188 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:20.159 We're talking about a small business or a big business, 189 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:22.320 because that plays a vase a little bit too. 190 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:28.039 Yeah, the Vida is a fourteen five hundred company. They 191 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:33.120 have something like thirteen hundred dialysis centers across the country, 192 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:41.759 and they're humongous and they have a huge revenue. 193 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:51.960 Now at what age, obviously, Kimberly, you say, went to 194 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:55.279 grade eleven, How does she become how does she come 195 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:59.519 to be employed at this dialysis center? What is the 196 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:03.120 sort of reading process for letting people in? And before 197 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.639 we go any further because we're kind of just jumping ahead. 198 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:09.279 Was there any she had any kind of odd behavior 199 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:14.279 reported then, or if somebody in retrospect or? Was there 200 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:18.120 any visits with a psychologist a psychiatrist. Was there anything 201 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.200 of note like that at all that you could find? 202 00:14:21.399 --> 00:14:28.240 Yeah, there was a few things. I need to talk about. 203 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.879 Her job here story really tell you about this. She 204 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:39.320 there in luck and there's a community college called Angelina College, 205 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:45.120 and they basically are a most people probably not what 206 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:48.879 a community college junior college is, but they have a 207 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.279 nursing program there and there's a two year program and 208 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:55.279 she went through that program. That's how she got in. 209 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:57.879 She couldn't have got into a regular college without a 210 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:02.480 high school diploma, but you cam with a junior college 211 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:08.159 and she she got her LVN, which is the lowest 212 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:15.360 ranking of a nursing in Texas. And her first job 213 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:20.360 out of college was with Memorial Hospital here in Lufkin. 214 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:28.200 And don't know what happened there. She was there for 215 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:32.759 two months and she left and I have no reason, 216 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:38.759 no idea why, and matter of fact, the police didn't 217 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:41.240 know either, because I think there was something happened to 218 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.960 her record. I'm not sure but nobody knew why she 219 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:51.559 left Memorial. But she went from Memorial to Woodland Heights 220 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:57.039 Hospital in Lufkin. And this is where the problems really 221 00:15:57.080 --> 00:16:00.000 come in at she was there for about a month 222 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.759 in half. She got fired and she was fired for 223 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:10.679 stealing demrong and forgiven patients in jack pain medication who 224 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:17.279 didn't need it. Yeah, that was that should have been 225 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.559 a huge flag right there. 226 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:23.360 Well, so why so she was fired at that time? 227 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.960 She was fired as a matter of fact, when she 228 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:31.840 hired them too di Vita. She had been fired from 229 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:40.000 five places, five nursing jobs and a year and a half. 230 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:47.399 Now, why don't these You would think the healthcare industry 231 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:51.399 would I would at least be able to pass that 232 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:53.960 information onto another business. I mean, there would be no 233 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:55.200 reason for them not to. 234 00:16:56.360 --> 00:17:01.159 Would for federal law says they can't. 235 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:04.680 Oh okay, they cannot. 236 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.880 The only yeah, the only by federal law. The only 237 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.240 thing they can tell another employer is if they would 238 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:13.640 hire those people back or not. 239 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:19.920 And that's it was she recommended each How does she 240 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:20.960 get five more jobs? 241 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:24.839 She has five no no rehires on her record when 242 00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:29.319 Divida hired her, And that's a huge I believe that's 243 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:32.039 a huge problem. But that's not even the biggest one. 244 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:35.680 That's not even the biggest one in this mess. But 245 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:44.480 uh uh. Woodland Heights contacted the Texas Boarder Nursing about 246 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:47.960 her being fired by her stealing the demaros, which she 247 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:52.000 confessed to giving shows the patience who didn't need it. 248 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:54.640 She confessed to that's even worse. 249 00:17:55.519 --> 00:18:00.839 Yeah, here's the problem with this. It doesn't go on 250 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:05.680 a record until the Texas Board and Nursing investigates these charges. 251 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:09.400 And what would you tell them to do that? 252 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:15.960 Well, when I get around to it. When I eventually 253 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:21.079 ended up investigating the charges against her from Woodland Hides, 254 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:25.440 she had just been fired from the Veda for killing patients. 255 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:31.359 Jesus, Now with the vita, I mean with lawsuits, I 256 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:32.240 mean everybody's afraid. 257 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:36.119 With lucky landslots, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 258 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:39.720 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen 259 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:40.559 the bride and groom? 260 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:42.720 Sorry, sorry, we're here. 261 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:44.799 We were getting lucky in the limo and we lost 262 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.440 track of time. 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So I suggest 273 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.440 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 274 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:21.519 start getting lucky. 275 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:25.240 Pay for free at Lucky landslots dot com. Are you 276 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:29.000 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 277 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:33.519 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details of. 278 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:38.240 A lawsuit in America, I mean, including these guys, they 279 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:40.799 don't have a screening policy that can kind of put 280 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:44.119 two and two together. Sure, there's no information to say 281 00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:46.519 they did this, they did this, but if you're gone 282 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:48.599 and you only lasted a few months, either allows the 283 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:53.880 employee or if they have to get an explanation from 284 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:56.960 the employee why they left. Or I mean, wouldn't it 285 00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:59.200 be easy to put two and two together. How desperate 286 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:04.319 is the Vita Well Texas. 287 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:13.720 Medical facilities in Texas are desperate nurses. They made them desperately. 288 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:22.240 It's one of the huge UH positions that really is 289 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:27.920 in demand. But and I have no evidence of this, 290 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:31.640 mind you, none what I'm about to say, But I 291 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:36.599 know she did this before. After Signs was arrested, after 292 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:41.880 the j grand jury UH indicted her and she was charged, 293 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.440 she was let out on bail. But one of the 294 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:50.400 stipulations that she of her bail is she couldnt be 295 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:59.079 employed at any healthcare facility, right, and she went r 296 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:02.839 She went and got a job at a health care 297 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:08.359 for children home. And this is how she did it. 298 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:14.079 She put on her application, isn't she was a nurse, 299 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.039 but she's been working for a roofing company. And she 300 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.759 gave on a phone number to check her reference to. 301 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:24.039 As it happens, a phone number was her husband's cell 302 00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:29.400 phone number. So I don't know what she did with 303 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:32.759 d vida, but she did do that. 304 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:40.480 Now, let's let's go backwards a little bit, because we 305 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:43.680 haven't even talked about the crimes itself. We haven't. She hasn't, 306 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.200 like I said, We've just talked about her getting hired. 307 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:52.079 Now at the Woodland Hospital and the other health facility 308 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:55.680 that she worked at in her position as the l VN, 309 00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:01.359 that's her nurse status. What what did her duties until. 310 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:11.559 At the VIDA, she was mostly a care tech care technicians, 311 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:16.599 care person. They took care of patients. They they gave up, 312 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:19.240 they checked their vitals, they hooked them up to the 313 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:23.640 dialaceis UH they kept checking them and all this throughout 314 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:30.480 the dialasi's process. UH. The VITA had a had three 315 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:34.599 tiers of employees who took care patients. The rians, which 316 00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:39.440 are registered nurses and they're higher than LVNs. They usually 317 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:43.480 were the med nurses or the supervisors over this, then 318 00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:49.240 had the LVNs. Then they had p PCT's patient care technicians. 319 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:57.000 And the patient care technicians were not nurses, but they 320 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:03.720 could do everything the LVNs could do, accept gift shots 321 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:08.640 and for the most part as a patient care catonician, 322 00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:13.039 she just take care of patience. Now there's times, of course, 323 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:17.160 people's don't leaves say things like that she was the 324 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:21.000 mad nurse. That meant she gave the mads. That's all 325 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:24.359 she did and that's all she wanted today because she 326 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:28.119 did not want to take care of patience. She hated it. 327 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:29.920 Oh really okay, yeah. 328 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.319 She hated taking care of patients. 329 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:37.720 Now we've also kind of jumped over this a little bit. 330 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:42.319 What is the sort of general number one, let's give 331 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:45.160 it for the audience that's kind of pining for. What 332 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.240 does this person look like? You can just in a 333 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:50.720 second describe, you know, or Hiji five foot four, about 334 00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:52.920 one hundred and seventy you said, But tell us a 335 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:55.519 little bit about her appearance and how she comes across. 336 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:01.480 But tell us to the extent, what would people characterize 337 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:05.240 her most by? What did she turn into? What kind 338 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:10.000 of person? Overall? Sort of disposition? What kind of person 339 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:14.119 was she likable? What did she look like first? And 340 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:18.519 was she what was her disposition at. 341 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:22.240 The time of trial? She was short and really heavy, 342 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:29.720 she bad actne I wasn't I wouldn't say that she 343 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:39.400 was attractive. Uh, I wouldn't say she's attractive now. Uh. 344 00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:45.240 During the trial and laden up to the trial, and 345 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:51.079 during the trial, she was really happy and I think 346 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:56.519 I even described as an And it wasn't just me 347 00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:02.400 because other people saw this too, but she really really 348 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:08.000 enjoyed the attention. She just seemed to relish the attention, 349 00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:12.799 even the pre trial meetings and things like that, when 350 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:16.440 they went in before the judge and everything to get 351 00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:19.799 things hashed out. She just seemed to have a good time. 352 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:23.240 She was the center of attention. 353 00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:31.720 Yeah, she was. She was enjoying herself. She really was. Uh. 354 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:36.200 I spoke to every one of the jurors. As a 355 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:39.079 matter of fact, I sat down with all twelve jurors 356 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:43.359 at one time and we talked for about eight hours 357 00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:50.079 over wine and pizza about everything involved with the trial. 358 00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:56.920 And one of the things the prosecutor worried about going 359 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:02.119 in was, nobody knows what a serial killer looks like. 360 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:06.319 But if you was gonna take a picture and say 361 00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:09.839 this is a serial killer, you wouldn't take her picture. 362 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:11.279 Right. 363 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:15.640 You know, she's a mother too, she's married. She doesn't 364 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.039 look like a serial killer. Of course, nobody knows what 365 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:24.200 one looks like. But during the trial, and the prosecutor 366 00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:29.319 worried about that. But during the trial afterwards, the jurors 367 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:32.759 told me they didn't know what a serial killer looked like, 368 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.240 but watching her, they knew what one acted like. 369 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:43.319 M Yeah, the psychopathic tendencies, yes, definitely. 370 00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:48.799 She Uh. During the trial, she would taunt the families 371 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:53.559 of the victims. Yeah, she would turn and smile at 'em, 372 00:26:53.680 --> 00:27:01.119 just mm and yuh. They were about the bust that guy. 373 00:27:01.319 --> 00:27:02.079 I really were. 374 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.160 Now let's just go back, because we've got to make 375 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:10.400 sure that people understand the gravity of this crime and 376 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:12.839 how she was able to do this at all. And 377 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:17.240 before reading your book, I had no idea really the 378 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:21.480 importance and significance of Bleach in her work and in 379 00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:23.519 the hospital in general. And I had no idea what 380 00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:26.680 they actually would use, why she would have access to it. 381 00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:29.559 So I thought it odd. So tell us a little 382 00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.680 bit more. And I don't really know the dialysis process. 383 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.960 I may have an inclination, but tell us about the 384 00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:40.079 dialysis center in terms of what exactly patients were in 385 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:43.119 there for. And before we start too, one thing you 386 00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.720 mentioned too that this is a very very unique crime 387 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:49.400 in that there have been people in the hospital setting 388 00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:52.720 that have killed patients, but for the vast majority, they've 389 00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:54.480 been people that were going to die anyway, and they 390 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:57.960 were like an avenging angel or putting people out of 391 00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:02.200 their misery just a little bit before, completely completely different 392 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:05.799 than this this person. So tell us first what the 393 00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:08.559 significance is of Bleach and why she had access to 394 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:11.160 it Before we get into the actual crime. 395 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:16.319 Right, A bleach is predominant in all dialysis center, not 396 00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:24.000 just a vita. They use it. They they use it 397 00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:27.359 to clean blood, wipe the seats, but they also use 398 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:30.599 it to wash out the machines, rents out the machines 399 00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:36.039 because blood goes into there, so it's prevalent in there. 400 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:39.960 When you walk into the center, you can get you 401 00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:43.599