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Welcome bonus, that's Chumba Casino dot com 49 00:02:01.879 --> 00:02:03.200 and live the chumber line you. 50 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.040 Forcus necessary day whereby by lost in terms conditions eighteen plus. 51 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:17.240 Lad, You. 52 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:30.479 Are now listening to True Murder The most shocking killers 53 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:33.520 in true crime history and the authors that have written 54 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:40.479 about them. Gasey Bundy, Stalhmer, The Night Stalker, Dck every 55 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:44.199 Week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 56 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:48.840 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 57 00:02:49.240 --> 00:03:02.319 journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good. 58 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:08.400 Evening, introducing the victims and perpetrators responsible for California's most 59 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:14.240 notorious shootouts, lynchings, and assassinations. This account shows how homemade 60 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:18.719 justice is never black and white in relating these histories. 61 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:25.319 This discussion also analyzes how and why Hollywood storylines almost 62 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.599 always follow the same skewed and unrealistic arc in which 63 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:32.639 the bad guys abuse the good guys. The good guy 64 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:35.439 takes the high road until the bad guy has gone 65 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:38.000 too far and the good guy picks off the bad 66 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:43.280 guys one by one in an increasingly dramatic fashion. The 67 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:47.479 book that we are featuring this evening is California Justice, Shootouts, 68 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:51.879 Lynchings and Assassinations in the Golden State, with my special guest, 69 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.680 journalist and author David Kolchik. Welcome to the program, and 70 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:59.599 thank you for agreeing to this interview. David Kolchick, Thanks 71 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:00.360 for having me on. 72 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:02.439 It's great. I appreciate it. 73 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:04.240 Thanks very much. We've got to dig right into this. 74 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:12.199 I very much enjoyed your introduction. But before we get 75 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:15.120 to what you wrote in the introduction, which I think 76 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:17.879 is very very important, and we need to explain the 77 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:21.240 state of the nation at that time, and especially what 78 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:27.240 were the circumstances and surrounding California at that time. How 79 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:31.160 did they treat the Native Americans, the what you call 80 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:36.639 the Californios. So let's first first question, what brought you 81 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:40.160 to this story? What give us your background or the 82 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:46.360 reason why you decided to write this book about California Justice, lynchings, 83 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:49.560 shootouts and assassinations in the Golden State. 84 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:54.079 Well, I have a complete fascination and love for California. 85 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:57.720 My wife is from California, and that's how I ended 86 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:01.319 up here. Met in Seattle, and I never had any 87 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:03.839 idea that I would ever live in California. It never 88 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:06.519 occurred to me. So once I was here, I was 89 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:12.279 just enthralled by the history that surrounds our state. And 90 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.160 I worked as a process server. Well, I was writing 91 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:18.680 this book, and I traveled all over northern California, and 92 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:22.720 I got to through other books that I had, I 93 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:27.759 got to see places where these things happened firsthand, and 94 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:32.240 I thought, you know, there's a lot a big history 95 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:35.800 of taking justice in your own hands in California. And 96 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:37.920 this book goes all the way from you know, eighteen 97 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:42.600 fifty until nineteen ninety eight or so. California just has 98 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:49.680 this big history of vigilante justice, and I don't think 99 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:50.879 that people knew about it. 100 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:57.000 Okay, let's that's a good segue, because as you write 101 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:01.079 in your introduction, you explained further that you said in between, 102 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:05.480 and this was fascinating to me, you know, and pretty horrifying. 103 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:08.519 Eighteen forty nine to nineteen fifty three, you say there 104 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:13.439 were over two hundred lynchings, and so as you write 105 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:17.600 in the beginning of California Justice, there have been thousands 106 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:21.839 of books and movies made about persons taking the lawn 107 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:24.120 to their own hands, as you mentioned, and you talk 108 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:30.199 about that basic storyline. But to refute that storyline that 109 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:32.560 we see in the movies and we've read in the books, 110 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:36.680 tell us really what California was like at that time 111 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:40.319 in the eighteen hundreds, and I alluded to it about 112 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:46.120 how the Caucasians that were there were treating the Native 113 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:48.600 Americans and the Mexicans. So tell us a little bit 114 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:52.439 about the history in California in eighteen hundreds to set 115 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:56.199 the stage so that the more fully understand some of 116 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.279 this book California Justice. 117 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:04.040 Well, California had the explosive population growth once the gold 118 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:09.480 rush started in eighteen forty eight eighteen forty nine, and Sacramento, 119 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:14.600 for instance, went from eleven Caucasians to twenty thousand in 120 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:19.240 a matter of a few years. And when that happened, 121 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:25.519 you know, these miners showed up and most of them 122 00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:29.519 were just just people ought to try something new, just 123 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:32.879 to get a shot at it. A lot of people 124 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:36.680 don't realize that when people came to California for the 125 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:38.959 gold Rush, a lot of people ended up going back 126 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.040 home after seven or eight years, were ten years or 127 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:46.279 so they a lot of them just didn't stay. They 128 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:47.959 came here, a lot of them came here and died. 129 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:50.720 And back in those days, you know, people didn't carry 130 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:53.800 ideas around and you know, Uncle Joe went out west 131 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:58.279 and they never saw them again. You know, there was 132 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:02.680 no police at all out here. And even today, you know, 133 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:06.439 California is a massive state. We have over thirty mountain 134 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:11.879 ranges in the state, you know, deserts, everything from I 135 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.199 like to tell people that we have more red neckt 136 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:18.759 than most people have people in their states because the 137 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:21.360 state is just so massive. And at the same time, 138 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:26.199 even today, you can drive down state highways in that 139 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.839 see a car for a half hour. So even today 140 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:36.840 it's still a fairly you know, extensive, extensive place. When 141 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:41.159 people came to California the Gold rushy, the average age 142 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:45.080 was twenty six years old, so basically it was like 143 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:48.840 a giant frat party here. People. The water was bad, 144 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:53.120 so people drank alcohol all the time. You know, an 145 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:56.120 egg costs a dollar, which would be crazy now. Even 146 00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:58.919 a shovel costs fifty dollars, which you know you can 147 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:01.799 go to home depot and pick up for fifteen bucks 148 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:05.960 or something. You know, nowadays. So you know, without having 149 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:09.759 grandma and neighbors and people knowing what they were doing, 150 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:14.600 a lot of these people misbehaved terribly and they would 151 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:18.480 take pot shots at Indians just for no reason, you know, 152 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:22.519 they would just Actually when the gold miners first came 153 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.759 out here, the Native Americans that lived in California were 154 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:32.399 here for fifteen thousand years and they had a complete 155 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:36.639 civilization set up along the rivers, and California split with 156 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:41.919 the status lat or the San Joaquin River coming from 157 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:45.759 the south to like the San Francisco Bay and the 158 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:48.440 Sacramento River that flows north, and all these rivers flow 159 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:52.320 from the mountains into it. The natives had villages about 160 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:56.519 every two miles, maybe thirty to three hundred people. They 161 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:01.240 all traded among each other, and their family bond was everything. 162 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:07.799 If they had a fight with another village, they tried. 163 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:11.360 They they did not hurt each other. They played coup 164 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:14.120 on each other, and if somebody was injured or hurt, 165 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:19.720 the other person's village would would make amends for it, 166 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:24.000 even if it meant that the murderer had to work 167 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:27.200 as a slave for that village for so many years 168 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:30.879 or things. So everything was already civilized here when when 169 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:34.799 the Spaniards came, and of course they were you know, 170 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:39.559 backed by the Catholic Church and everything, and they always 171 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:43.720 had priests with them, and they didn't realize that they 172 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.759 were in the Garden of Eden. They were. They were 173 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:50.840 all the natives are naked and they just eat food 174 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:52.919 that's on the ground. It's like sounds like the Garden 175 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:57.759 of Eden to me. Yes, So if you can imagine, 176 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:02.600 is basically what happened to California to the Native Americans 177 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:06.440 that lived there. They first were waked out by smallpox 178 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.919 in around eighteen forty five or so when Fremont came 179 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:14.639 out here. Within a year, nine of the natives died. 180 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:20.759 It was just massive, massive death. Measles, smallpox, things like 181 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:24.320 that just wiped them completely out. So by the time 182 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:28.519 the gold Rush happened, you basically had a civilization like 183 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:33.159 in the Mad Max movies, just stragglers from villages, people 184 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:38.399 without their families anymore. And so when the gold Rush 185 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:42.840 people came, you know, they saw the most pathetic people 186 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:45.279 you can even imagine. They were all just you know, 187 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:49.960 their families, their children, their wives, their husbands were all 188 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:56.639 dead and so they you know, gravitated towards where the 189 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.559 white civilization was, and that didn't work out very good 190 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:01.240 most of the time. 191 00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:06.519 Now let's get to let's get to some of the 192 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:09.840 examples that you have in the introduction as well. There 193 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:13.440 just for example, you note in eighteen sixty three is 194 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:15.200 one of the first stories that you note right in 195 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:19.519 the introduction to demonstrate the point that you just made, 196 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:23.120 and where they some ranchers discover their horses are gone. 197 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:26.480 So tell us the process of taking justice into your 198 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:29.320 own hands, law into your own hands in that story 199 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:32.080 that you write in the introduction eighteen sixty three. 200 00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:35.879 Yeah, that was up around Chico, which is about an 201 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:42.320 hour north of Sacramento. That's right of Chico's College Child 202 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:47.519 and so outside of Chico. In eighteen sixty three, this 203 00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:54.000 guy's horses disappeared, so they figured some Native Americans to come. 204 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.919 The first Native Americans they came across, they lynched, and 205 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:00.879 the next day of the horse verses came back to 206 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:03.320 the barn. It turned out that they just went for 207 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:07.480 a hike and they weren't stolen at all. In Yuba 208 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:10.879 City until the late seventies, there was a bar there 209 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:16.919 that had a photograph on their wall of a tree, 210 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:20.879 a big live oak tree with like twenty bodies of 211 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:24.960 Native Americans hanging by ropes for their necks on it 212 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:31.600 like a Christmas tree. So it was bad. Most of 213 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:34.799 the most of the men were dead. The women were 214 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:38.080 made into prostitutes for the most part, and the children 215 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:43.159 were made in the slaves farm labor. The funny thing is, 216 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:45.360 I thought, this is funny is that when you know, 217 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:49.200 all the miners came out here, they didn't bring women 218 00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:52.080 with them. There were very few women here, and the 219 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.639 Native Americans thought that the white men were all gay, 220 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:00.840 which I think is hilarious because they're like, where's women? Yeah, 221 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:11.039 who travels without their family? So right, go ahead, Dusku 222 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:18.480 County doing. In the eighteen seventies, they made a treaty 223 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:21.960 with the naive Americans. They invited them from all over 224 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:24.519 the place to come and have a feast, and they 225 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:27.639 had a big barbecue and they made Indian bread for them, 226 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:30.879 and they poisoned the Indian bread. And they figure up 227 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:34.919 to ten thousand people may have died from poisoning or 228 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:36.720 from getting gunned down afterwards. 229 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:42.960 Wow, amazing. Yeah, Now in this first first chapter you 230 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.759 still have what we're talking about is the San Francisco 231 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:50.120 Vigilante Committee of eighteen fifty one, and then again was 232 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:53.919 another version in eighteen fifty six, and you call it 233 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.240 a phantom government set up in place of the ultra 234 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:03.080 corrupt officials official one that was all that allowed criminals 235 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:06.360 at that time and politicians to commit all kinds of 236 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:12.240 crimes including murder, robbery, and assault, basically with impunity. So 237 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:16.159 these were known criminals. So tell us a little bit 238 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:19.639 about the formation of the San Francisco Vigilante Committee. This 239 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:23.440 is a fascinating story to start our interview. 240 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:29.799 Yeah, the the you know, no one had ideas and 241 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.519 no one could check what somebody was before they came 242 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:36.320 to California. So all kinds of criminals and low lives 243 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:40.320 came here too, and a lot of them were professional 244 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:45.639 politicians back east. I hate to say Philadelphia, but you 245 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.759 know it was the whole Philadelphia lawyer thing is where 246 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.039 that comes from. A lot of sharp eats came here, 247 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:56.440 and you know, San Francisco just exploded. It went from 248 00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:59.919 a village and the sand dunes to a massive city 249 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.960 in just a mass matter a few years. And they 250 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:07.799 pretty much did anything they wanted to, and they would 251 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.919 be you know, if they got arrested, they'd be just 252 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:16.279 turned around and released back into into general population. There 253 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:21.039 was no consequences for them. They were untouchable. So they 254 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:25.240 had In the eighteen fifty one case, a bunch of 255 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:31.039 Australians managed to get to San Francisco and they were 256 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:35.639 called the Sydney Hounds and they would just go into 257 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:41.960 tent neighborhoods and you know, loot, rob, rape, kill whatever 258 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:47.399 they wanted. And it got to the point where, you know, 259 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:51.440 real upright citizens were starting to get robbed by these guys. 260 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:54.759 And so that's how the first one was formed, just 261 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:59.279 to chase these offees and any bad people out. He 262 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:02.559 was hung people from polls and things. This is a warning. 263 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:05.960 And the ships were all full leaving town. A lot 264 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:08.440 of them ran out into the mountains too, to the 265 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:12.759 gold Rush area. In eighteen fifty six, it was caused 266 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:16.400 by there was even more of the corruption came back 267 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.680 and King James of Williams, this guy had this really 268 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.400 crazy name. He made it up because there were so 269 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:25.720 many James williams Is everywhere. And he was the founder 270 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:29.319 and editor of the San Francisco Bulletin. And he got 271 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:33.440 shot by this city supervisor which is just incredible if 272 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.759 you think about it. This guy named James P. Casey, 273 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:41.759 and he was a fixer of elections and he won 274 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.440 his seat and the Board of Supervisors with more votes 275 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:52.359 than were registered voters. So King Williams, King Jeans of 276 00:17:52.440 --> 00:18:02.240 Williams was assassinated by this gambler Charles Cora. And oh no, wait, 277 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:05.319 that guy shot this US marshal. So that's that's what started. 278 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:09.920 It is that first this US marshal gets shot by 279 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.480 guy and he gets released, and then the editor of 280 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:17.839 the paper gets assassinated, and people just thought, well, this 281 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:20.480 is too much. This is, you know, a US marshal 282 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:25.319 and the editor of their major newspaper gets assassinated, and 283 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:26.839 these guys are walking out in the street. 284 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:32.240 Now we're talking about a membership too, which was amazing 285 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:36.119 to me, was over three thousand volunteers in military formation. 286 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.759 You write, marched to the jail and demanded the two 287 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:43.799 prisoners to be given up to this second Committee of Vigilance, 288 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:48.079 and then with the membership of eight thousand at that time, 289 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:50.920 and so the sheriff gave him up. It was a 290 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:54.640 hasty trial. So tell us, tell us what happened at 291 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.519 this trial at this trial. 292 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:02.400 They actually had a defense for it. They set it 293 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:08.400 up just like any other court in America, because the 294 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:14.440 court was so corrupt in San Francisco that they formed 295 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:21.640 it just like it should be. And they well, you know, 296 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:24.119 there was a lot of anger going on. There was 297 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:30.279 the National Guard was sitting in a in a ship 298 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:35.759 in the bay waiting to get orders to invade San Francisco, 299 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:45.279 and they ended up they meet these this this gallows 300 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:48.480 out of the building. It was a warehouse in San Francisco. 301 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.880 They called it Fort Gunny Sacks because most of these 302 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:54.480 men that were in San Francisco too, a lot of 303 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:59.720 them were in the Mexican American War, and when the 304 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:01.960 war it was over, they just you know, hey, California 305 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:04.200 and there's gold in thatt. So we had a whole 306 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:08.960 bunch of ex soldiers and they weren't about ready to 307 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.480 get pushed around, and you know, they were all trained 308 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:16.039 and everything. So they took this place and they made 309 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:21.759 like a maze of sandbags to go around it so 310 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:23.839 that you know, they couldn't get rushed. They had to 311 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.200 kind of go through a zigzag through all the the 312 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:33.519 sand bags and stuff, and it was totally secure. When 313 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:36.920 they were done with the trial. They just basically pushed 314 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:39.440 the guy out the window with a rope around his 315 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:41.359 neck and died right out in front. 316 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.920 And nobody was prosecuted for that. It was the end. 317 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:52.799 They disbanded. You say, they disbanded this and gave back 318 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:57.440 the officials there the responsibility for law and order, didn't they. 319 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:01.759 Yeah, yeah, I write more about that in actually my 320 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:04.119 latest book, Fruit Flakes and Nuts. I read about a 321 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:08.880 couple of people that were part of that that their 322 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:14.599 lives were even more bizarre afterwards. So because a lot 323 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:17.200 of those people, like one of the guys ended up 324 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:21.920 being the governor of Kansas or something, the founder of Denver, 325 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.119 you know, these a lot of these people went on 326 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:27.359 to be in government. 327 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:32.960 It's incredible. There's incredible story as we turned the pages, 328 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:35.519 as this story seems to have, as we'll talk about 329 00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:40.519 in another couple of stories in this interview, where has 330 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:44.119 some modern parallels with the last escape with the two 331 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:48.200 prisoners in New York State and with their accomplice, So 332 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.240 very very interesting that one hundred and fifty years there 333 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.480 are some parallels with modern day escapes and true crime 334 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.680 in the same vein of the citizens taking over and 335 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:04.440 a committee forming to bring to take on order into 336 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:07.200 their own hands. The next story I thought, we're very 337 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:12.160 fascinating was for what it really explores as the citizens 338 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:16.119 of Little Lake strike back and Elijah Frost. 339 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.000 Yeah, the supporters and the Coats. 340 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:21.960 So it's a hat filled in McCoy's here of sorts 341 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:25.759 with Elijah Frost and his family and the Coats, which 342 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:28.480 are Union supporters. So tell us a little bit about 343 00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:33.720 this and before we talk about eighteen sixty seven October 344 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:36.200 and election day in Mendocino County. 345 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:46.920 Yeah, the Coat's family hang let me, okay, the Coats 346 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:55.559 family were well, the Frost family were Confederate supporters and 347 00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:04.160 they came up from from Missouri and settled in Medicino County. 348 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:10.839 At the same time there was the Frost family. They 349 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:13.519 were equally homicidal and a huge family, and they used 350 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:17.279 to just get into big fights usually especially during the 351 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:25.960 Civil War, and they were always well armed and fighting 352 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:29.559 and stuff. You can't even think about things like that 353 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:33.240 and about California, you know, you think of like in 354 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.440 the movies, the Wild West is always with the wagon 355 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:39.759 trains and things like that, but much more things happen 356 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:43.599 in California than pretty much everywhere else when it comes 357 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:49.160 down to it. On October sixteenth, eighteen sixty seven, it 358 00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:52.880 was election day and the families were coming in. You know, 359 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:55.680 people were coming in to vote, and you know a 360 00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:59.279 holiday back then, it should be now too, that'd be 361 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:03.480 really great. They ended up getting into a fight. The 362 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:06.680 Frost picked a fight with the Coats and it killed 363 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:11.680 five members of the Coats family and one member of 364 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:15.720 the Frost family was chatting at chess with double barrel shotgun. 365 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:20.559 Three other people of that family were seriously wounded. So 366 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:25.240 you know, that put a big chill on the family 367 00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:29.799 feud and things kind of cooled out from there. But 368 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:35.200 Elijah for us, his father was one of the ones 369 00:24:35.240 --> 00:24:41.000 that were killed. 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They did nothing but get in the trouble. 393 00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:51.799 They were putting the custody of his older sister or something, 394 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.559 and they basically just stole horses and just did any 395 00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:57.680 kind of petty crame. 396 00:25:57.480 --> 00:25:58.039 As he could. 397 00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:04.319 He was putting prison for stealing horses. And when he 398 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:06.279 got out of prison, he had some friends that he 399 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:09.319 met there and they came with him over to Little Lake. 400 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:15.200 And this guy was Abajeon Gibson and Thomas McCracken, and 401 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.880