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Speaker 1: Good afternoon. You're listening to Gambling with an Edge.

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Speaker 2: Now here are your hosts, Bob Dancer and Richard Munchkin.

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Good afternoon, Welcome to Gambling with an Edge. I'm Bob

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Dancer and I'm Richard Munchkin. Today we're talking to legendary

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Las Vegas sportsbook operator Ark Manterras on occasion of the

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publication of his new autobiography called Bookie arc Man Terras.

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Welcome to Gambling with an Edge.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Bob and Richard. It's great. It's

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a pleasure to speak to both of you. I'm sure

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we're going to have a lively discussion and I've been

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looking forward to it all day.

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Speaker 2: Good You were raised in western Pennsylvania, and a whole

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lot of sportsbook operators in Las Vegas came from that area.

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Some related to you, some were boyfriend boyhood friends, some both,

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to what you tribute to the concentration of Vegas bookmakers,

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all coming from that same relatively small area.

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Speaker 1: Well, when I was growing up, sports gambling was not

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a negative and it was not frowned upon, and I

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probably was a teenager before I realized that there was

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legal implications, So it was a hotbed of activity. There

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was a lot of gambling in the Tri state area,

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meaning Pittsburgh, Ohio, and West Virginia, and you know, all

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the way starting with Jimmy the Greek and the great

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Mochy Facento, the Caesars Pallace casino manager for many many years,

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who both came out of Steubenville, and a lot of

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people followed after that, including my uncle Jack Fransy, who

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was a very prominent sports handicapper.

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Speaker 2: Well, when you came to Vegas, your uncle Jack was

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kind of your guardian angel, telling you go here, don't

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go there. Tell us about uncle Jack.

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Speaker 1: Well, Jack was a great handicap. He had a great

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eye for sports, and he had tremendous self discipline. And

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I tell people who asked me how did he do it?

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How was he a successful handicapper for sixty some years?

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And I say his number one attribute was was his

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self discipline. Second, he had a great eye for talent

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in sports where he could he could watch a basketball

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game in particular, I think even more so than other sports.

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But he could watch a basketball game and come away

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with a totally different perspective than most of us could.

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And and he and he would have a great opinion

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on that team in their next game every time, every

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time he watched, it seemed. And I can tell you

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this when he when he passed away about five years ago.

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When uh when now I don't remember what year it was.

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Was a twenty nineteen When did the Raptors win the

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NBA Championship? Uh? Yeah, okay, well a few months before

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he passed he bet the Raptors to win the championship.

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As far as I know, that was the last bet

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he ever made.

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Speaker 3: So was he betting all sports? I mean, I mean football, basketball, baseball.

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I don't think he betted baseball that much. He did

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a little bit, but not not daily. But but but

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but college and pro basketball, yes, and and football college

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and pro certainly yes. Well, when you're trying to college

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also boxing also oh yeah, great boxing, handicapper, you know,

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when you're trying to bet college I mean, there's so

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many teams and divisions and all that that that's a

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lot to do back in the day before computers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he did it all in his head. Uh.

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And he had a remarkable mind and a remarkable memory.

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He's one of the few guys that I know that

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that did never had a phone book, never wrote people's

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numbers down, He just remembered them. And you know, obviously

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that was before smartphones and so forth. But he didn't

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need anything else other than a phone to dial, and

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he would get a hold of whoever he wanted. So

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he was a great, great talent. He you know, he

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was on your side of the counter. Obviously guys would

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have liked him if you didn't have the opportunity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wish I had met him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And one one last comment on uncle Jack and

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uh uh, you know this is typical of him, if if,

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if you knew him. He had hip surgery as he

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as he was getting older, he fell and broke his hip.

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And uh, I went to the hospital just before surgery.

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Now I was told surgery was going to be in

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the afternoon. I think I think it was four o'clock

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the surgery was scheduled for. So I went down about

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one or two o'clock, thinking that I could spend a

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few hours with him before the surgery. But when I

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got to his room, they were they were just about

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ready to take take him away down into the pre

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op waiting area, and the surgeon came in and talked

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talked to him for a few minutes, and he knew

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the surgeon, and he had been recommended to him, and

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he was taking taking good care of him, and and

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he and he and he told Jack, he said, Jack,

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don't worry about a thing. This is no problem that

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you got another good five years left in you. Uncle

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Jack looked over at me and he said, I make

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the under a slight favorite.

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Speaker 3: And he died four and a half years later.

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Speaker 2: Handicapper to the end, that's a when you were at

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the Stardust, it was at the tail end of it

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being mob controlled. Tell us about some of the shenanigans

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that went on there at the time.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it was at the tail end. And and

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you know, it was actually a blessing for me in disguise,

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because I got to see how things were being done

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and things were being manipulated. And I do tell the

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story in the book, the book the Bookie, how in

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those days, tickets wagers were handwritten on three three copy paper,

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and one set would go down into a lock box

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that would be sent to the audit department, and one

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one copy would go to the customer to bring back

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for the winning wager, and one would go to the

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cashier's kate. But eventually as I moved from position to position.

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I started out as a boardman in those old fashioned

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boards like like the Wrigley Field Uhore scoreboard where you

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where I would change the odds up, up, up on

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the boards. And then I moved to the ticket writer,

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and the sports book, ticket writer in the race book,

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and eventually cashier. And as I went through all those positions,

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I started to notice the tickets didn't line up properly

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all the time. And there was a period of time

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when I was working in the sports book where I

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would get sent sent on a break almost daily. Say kid,

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wanted to take a break. It's slow, get get out

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of here for a while. So every day I'd take

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a walk for about an hour up and down the strip.

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And I loved it. Life was good in the In

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those days, I was going to UNLV and I was

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working in this in the most prestigious sports book in

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the in the world. But when I would come back,

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I would notice some tickets were always written out of

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my drawer, you know, and they were always for flat

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amounts five hundred dollars on you know, the Jets plus

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seven for five hundred dollars or the giants plus three

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for one thousand dollars, and it was almost daily, and

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finally I started wondering and asking, you know who's coming

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in and betting a flat amount like that every day

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when I when I leave, and I asked the question

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a few times and always left off at kid, don't

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worry about it. We got a little busy. Well then

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when I became the cashier and I realized that the

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tickets didn't match up properly. Then I did eventually come

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to realize what was happening, because I remembered back when

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I was a boardman up on the second floor and

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the audit department was right down the hall, and I

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would see one of one of the managers up in

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the audit department at night frequently, and I knew that

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there should not be a crossover like that, there should

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not be interaction between between the audit apartment and the

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operations team. And eventually it hit me like a ton

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of bricks that the customer copy, the audit copy, and

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the cashier's copy were all together, and you could if

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you had a losing bet, you lost the bet that

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the money was gone, but if that one team won

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it was pretty easy to make that at three or

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fourteen parlay after the games were over.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, nice work if you can get it. Did you

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move to Las Vegas with the intent of getting into

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the book making.

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Speaker 1: Business or or I transferred. I transferred from the University

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University of Pittsburgh to UNLV, and my sister was out here,

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my uncle Jack was out here, obviously, and then others

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came out after all of us did, But no, I

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did not. When I first came here, my intent and

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I loved sports, and I loved sports gambling, but my

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intent was to finish school quickly and go on to

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LA where I had an offer in La to be

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a stunt man in Hollywood, which was very appealing to

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me as a young man. And I was naive enough

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at that time that if they would have told me

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to jump off a building, I would have done it.

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And this followed the movie, Yeah, this followed the movie

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The Fish at Saint Pittsburgh, where I was really lucky

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to fall into a role. Sonny Vacaro was a technical

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advisor on the movie, and he knew I was about

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the same size and I could play a little bit,

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and he put me in the movie as a stuntman,

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and I just fell in love with it and saw

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the stars in Hollywood right before my eyes, and I

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literally was offered a job to come out there, but

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I asked him to wait until I finished my degree.

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Never made it.

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Speaker 2: Pretty much concurrently with your career, a legendary gambler named

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Billy Walters was cleaning up on a number of sportsbooks,

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including at times yours. Yeah, tell us some of your

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encounters with Billy over the year.

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Speaker 1: Well, I didn't have too many, you know, I didn't.

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I didn't have too many encounters with him personally. I

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did see him occasionally at a charitable event or a show,

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or or mate or or dinner once or twice, but

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but I didn't see him in the sports books very

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very much myself. But it wasn't It wasn't him personally

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that concerned me. It was his followers and his minions

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and and and his partners as he called them, which

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I didn't view as partners. I viewed them as runners.

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Speaker 2: And and the runners were it was illegal to be

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a runner.

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Speaker 1: In the Vata, it was, yeah, yeah, in the Vata

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that in the Vata it a messenger. Betting was prohibited. Yeah, yeah,

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So you know. Yeah, I always took a hard line

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on enforcing regulations, uh state and federal, and uh that

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didn't go over real well with certain segments of the market.

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And I get that if I was a player, and

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if I was on the other side of the counter,

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and by the way, you know, as a young man,

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I had to make that decision. At some point, I

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had to make the decision which side of the counter

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I was going to be on, and it was going

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to be one or the other. And it was actually

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a close, close decision. I think I made the right

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decision for for myself. But once I did that, then

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I was fully committed to operations and I viewed the

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company's gaming license as the most valuable asset that that

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they had, and I wasn't really willing to take a

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gamble on jeopardizing that license.

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Speaker 3: The messenger betting law didn't come in when that come

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in the nineties, because it wasn't originally, you know, a law,

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and you.

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Speaker 1: Know that's that's it's a regulation, not necessarily, I mean, yeah, yeah,

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it's a regulation. I don't that's a good question. I

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don't know. I don't remember when it was enacted, but

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i'd say it was before the nineties. I would say

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the eighties in all likelihood, but I'd have to I'd

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have to look that up to be certain. Tell us

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about pasta what was it, When did it come into effect,

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and what did it do? Yeah, the Professional Amateur Sports

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Protection Act, And I do tell that story in the

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book also, which I think you know a lot of

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people find that a fascinating story in the book because

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at the Hilton, at the Las Vegas Hilton, we had

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just opened the Flamingo Hilton Sports Book in I believe

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it was eighty nine, and it was a really easy

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fix to connect the Flamingo Hilton Sports Book to the

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Las Vegas Hilton Superbook. And that was the first such

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venture like that in the Vata where two sports books

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were connected by computer. And you know, when you change

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the line at one place, it would change it at

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both and the odds displayed was simultaneous in each property.

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And it was really a seamless integration, much easier than

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I expected in all likely that vic Salerno had to

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put in the computer system back then, computerized book making system,

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and he and his company did a great job of

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connecting the two books. So anyway, after that, it was.

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It was kind of a no brainer for us to

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reach out into other jurisdictions and see what we could

241
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do at racetracks. You know, the Interstate Horse Racing Act

242
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allows for interstate wagering from one legal jurisdiction to another

243
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,440
on horse racing. Now, the Wire Act, which applies to

244
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sports gambling, was a little bit different, and we had

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to obviously we had to be concerned about that, but

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we thought the pretext was laid for interstate gambling between

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legal jurisdictions. So we went out Roxy and I went

248
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to race tracks all across the country to gauge their

249
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interest in this endeavor. And uh, some uh, some racetracks

250
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,480
were a little bit lukewarm. Some one one racetrack was

251
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firmly against the COMPS concept of taking uh uh sports

252
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wagers at the racetracks, and and and that was Churchill down.

253
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Churchill was adamantly opposed to the concept. But you know,

254
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in reality, they were opposed to any forms of gambling

255
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or even charity gambling. They were opposed. They were opposed

256
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to every every form of gambling to my to my

257
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knowledge that that that they viewed as as competition to

258
00:14:17,279 --> 00:14:21,399
to to racing. And one track the Laurel Racetrack in

259
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:26,720
Maryland was very interested. They loved the idea, and talks

260
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continued with Laurel. We we had, uh, you know, a

261
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,559
real prospect of putting a sports book into Laurel. Laurel

262
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,399
actually started building a sports book at the track. Of

263
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course that turned eventually that turned into a sports bar,

264
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and uh, last I knew it was still there. But nevertheless,

265
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in retrospect, I think that was the worst thing that

266
00:14:49,639 --> 00:14:54,679
could have happened with that this was being being so

267
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well received right outside of Washington, d C. Because the

268
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next thing we knew there, you know, there was furious

269
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lobbying against what we were trying to do, and PASPA

270
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became the law of the land almost overnight, and that

271
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became live, I believe, in nineteen ninety two, and of

272
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course it held up all the way till twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 3: But you in the book, it seems that in hindsight

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you seem not so sure that this opening up of

275
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gambling everywhere was a good thing.

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Speaker 1: That yeah, yeah, I do have some concerns, Richard. I

277
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think that it's gone too far, too fast, and I'm

278
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really worried about pushback. I think that pushback is it

279
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:50,720
is inevitable now there's so much advertising and so much sponsorships,

280
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and you can't go to a game anymore without seeing

281
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team gambling company logos on the scoreboard or some cases

282
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,639
even here with the Knights UH casino company logos on

283
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the on the player jerseys. And you're watch a game,

284
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,440
try to watch a game with your family, you know

285
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:14,559
that you're inundated with either adverse sports gambling advertising or

286
00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:17,639
or or in play odds updates. And don't get me wrong,

287
00:16:17,679 --> 00:16:20,320
I love the industry. I love both industry. I love

288
00:16:20,399 --> 00:16:23,200
the sports gambling industry, and I love the products that

289
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,440
the leagues put out on the field. But I've been

290
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,440
around a little while now, and I've seen gambling and

291
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,559
other jurisdictions, and I've gone to the UK and Ireland

292
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,360
and a lot of other countries where sports gambling was

293
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,879
widely acceptable for the most part. And what's happening in

294
00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:43,759
all those jurisdictions now now it's going the other way.

295
00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:47,840
Look at Italy, for example, sports gambling is legal in Italy,

296
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but sports gambling advertising is not. And and and similar

297
00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:57,159
pushback and steps going the other way in many countries

298
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:58,320
around the world.

299
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I want to go back for a minute,

300
00:17:01,799 --> 00:17:07,359
back to the Stardust. Did you have any interactions at

301
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,680
all with Frank Rosenthal or or was he gone by

302
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:12,599
the time you got there?

303
00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:14,640
Speaker 1: He was gone. He was gone by the time I

304
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,599
got there. He was He was there when I came

305
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,559
to town, and he was there for a part of

306
00:17:20,559 --> 00:17:23,119
the time that I worked at the Fremont Hotel downtown.

307
00:17:23,519 --> 00:17:25,519
But he was gone from the startist by the time

308
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:29,240
I started at the Stardust. But some of his people

309
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:34,039
were still there. And you know, unbeknownst to to most,

310
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,599
you know, there was still that those relationships that were

311
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,400
still intact. And and and and there was there. There

312
00:17:41,599 --> 00:17:43,799
was while I was there, still things happening in the

313
00:17:43,839 --> 00:17:46,839
casino with the in the count rooms and so on

314
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,680
and so forth. Yeah, and and and and and I

315
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,960
for what it's worth, I'm a big fan of the

316
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,799
movie Casino. I loved it. I thought it was a

317
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,720
very accurate portrayal. I thought Teshi was phenomenal. DeNiro was

318
00:18:01,839 --> 00:18:04,200
great also, But Pat you even looked the part, I mean,

319
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:11,319
he really had that part down. And you know that

320
00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:14,920
that is is hard. It is hard to beat that one.

321
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,359
That's probably my favorite gambling movie of all time.

322
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 2: So, Patt, you played Tony Spilatro, did you have any

323
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:23,400
interaction with him?

324
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,319
Speaker 1: I did. I did have interaction with Spilatro, and I

325
00:18:27,759 --> 00:18:31,319
was a really naive kid at the time and didn't

326
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,920
realize who I was dealing with and didn't realize the

327
00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:37,839
danger or the risk that I was facing. But when

328
00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:42,039
I was a real young sportsbook manager at Caesar's Palace

329
00:18:42,519 --> 00:18:45,599
in my mid twenties, H yeah, I was cut into

330
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,319
by one of Spilatro's guys, and you know, I got

331
00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:51,160
the typical wow, we can really help each other, and

332
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,960
you know what, we can work together and that kind

333
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,240
of stuff. And you know, I was too naive to

334
00:18:56,279 --> 00:18:59,440
realize what was happening to or to the extent of

335
00:18:59,599 --> 00:19:02,599
the danger that was before me, and I just ignored

336
00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:05,079
it and went on about my business, went on about

337
00:19:05,079 --> 00:19:07,960
my job, ignored it and act pretty much acted like

338
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,480
it hadn't happened. And that, in retrospect, was probably the

339
00:19:11,519 --> 00:19:13,880
best thing, the best thing I could have done. And

340
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,640
one more thing about the movie. I don't know if

341
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:23,400
you guys remember Joe Pignotello. He was a gambler around

342
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,400
town and a restaurant tour He had a couple of

343
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,200
really really good Italian restaurants, and he was a phenomenal cook.

344
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,359
He was he was actually and I didn't know this

345
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,640
at the time, but he he was the cook for

346
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,839
sam g and Conna uh and they and they and

347
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,720
he owned a villa the s but later I learned

348
00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:45,559
it was really Giancana's restaurant. And then he owned Vesuvios

349
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,960
on Desert in Road, right behind the right behind the Hilton,

350
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,559
and I used to go there fre frequently. He was

351
00:19:51,599 --> 00:19:56,880
a great phenomenal cook. But Pegi and De Niro and

352
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,720
their crews were eating there all the time when they

353
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,279
were in twent filming casino and Joe, Joe was you know,

354
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,480
hitt hit bet a twenty year dollar or fifty dollars

355
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,279
one hundred dollars parlays when they'd come in all the time.

356
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,279
And then all of a sudden, he's betting five and

357
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,119
ten dimes, and you know, and then I really I

358
00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:17,440
realized all those guys were those guys were eating at

359
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,440
the Zubios every night, and Joe was flushed with money,

360
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,759
and uh, you know, and he put he put it

361
00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:23,440
over the colar.

362
00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:29,279
Speaker 2: At one point in the book, you talk about visiting

363
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:34,119
some Caribbean sports books and meeting the legendary Ron Saco. Yeah,

364
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,000
why were you there? And how are those sports books

365
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:38,759
different from those in Las Vegas?

366
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,519
Speaker 1: Well there, they surprised me, uh at how professional they were.

367
00:20:43,759 --> 00:20:46,319
I you know, I had the opportunity to see their

368
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,559
you know, their marketing departments, and their anti fraud departments

369
00:20:50,599 --> 00:20:55,039
and and and their uh PR and and and they

370
00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:57,759
were just a you know, a really well oiled machine

371
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,279
in their operation. And I didn't expect that.

372
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:00,599
Speaker 2: Now.

373
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,400
Speaker 1: I did see a couple of places that were very

374
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,039
much the opposite. They were just you know, boiler room

375
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,839
type operations, you know, not real sophisticated, and one in

376
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,880
particular closed up not too long after I was down there,

377
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,359
and I and I thought that was just a perfect

378
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,200
example of the risks of putting your money with an

379
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,759
offshore book, because you know, the one one of them

380
00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:25,119
that I had become aware of was overnight was gone

381
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,920
and gone with the money. But why was I down

382
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:34,079
there at one point? And actually it was right around

383
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:39,240
or just after the two thousand and eight stock market

384
00:21:39,279 --> 00:21:44,119
crash and recession, and all of us at station casinos

385
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,480
at that time were challenged with doing the best we

386
00:21:47,559 --> 00:21:50,559
could to save the company and bring the company out

387
00:21:50,559 --> 00:21:54,559
of some real serious financial difficulties for the first time.

388
00:21:55,079 --> 00:21:59,200
And you know, so my my intent was to figure

389
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,559
out what could I do to really help this department

390
00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:06,240
and help my company And and so I looked offshore

391
00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:09,400
at that time, and I thought that someday this might

392
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,039
be legal nationwide, and I want to be in position

393
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,319
to take over one of these operators offshore and and

394
00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:21,440
and and have it have a nationwide business when, if,

395
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,920
if the political climate changes and the legal situation changes.

396
00:22:26,279 --> 00:22:29,640
So yeah, I was looking for two reasons I was there,

397
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,640
and that of course was the main reason, to try

398
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,759
to get into position to move if and when things

399
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,920
changed legally. And secondly, I wanted to see their computer

400
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,839
systems and the technology that they were utilizing. And you know, what,

401
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,839
was their product better than ours? And in some ways

402
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,960
it was, in some ways it wasn't. But it was

403
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:53,720
a very educational trip, a couple of trips, actually, And

404
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,039
I think it was a two way street. I think

405
00:22:56,079 --> 00:22:59,279
opening those lines of the communication opened some eyes on

406
00:22:59,319 --> 00:23:03,920
both sides of the of the.

407
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 3: Ocean, and they were happy to open their doors to you.

408
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,599
Or was it because of the connections you had that

409
00:23:12,279 --> 00:23:13,559
you had introductions.

410
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. I think it was primarily because of

411
00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:22,000
the mutual friends and the contacts, and in fact, with

412
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,279
mister Shako that you mentioned. When I first met him

413
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,480
the first time, he kind of walked right by, didn't

414
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:34,160
say much, just grumbled the hello and kept going and Eric,

415
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,039
and then a few minutes later he comes busting back

416
00:23:39,079 --> 00:23:41,880
into the room and says, which.

417
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 3: One of you guys with Pittsburgh Jet's nephew?

418
00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:47,599
Speaker 1: And I said, I am, And then he comes over

419
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,559
it gives me a big bear hug, and then why

420
00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:52,599
don't you say so? And you know, from that point on,

421
00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:54,720
you know, we had a much better relationship.

422
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,759
Speaker 2: So one of the books in that area, Pinnacle, is

423
00:24:00,799 --> 00:24:05,160
widely considered like the best in the world. Did you

424
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,079
get to see that one?

425
00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: I never did see it firsthand, but I did know

426
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,720
the people that ran it. I knew the real very

427
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,440
classy lady, very professional lady that knew that that ran

428
00:24:18,519 --> 00:24:21,680
the business. She was the CEO for many years, and

429
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,039
I did strike up a relationship with her at various

430
00:24:25,279 --> 00:24:29,559
gaming conferences and function industry functions over the years. And

431
00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:34,079
I think we have had a good u mutual respect

432
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,839
for one another. She respected what I did and my

433
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,319
reasons for towing the line with all laws and regulations,

434
00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:45,279
and I respected the product that they put out.

435
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: One of the reasons they could be better was they

436
00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:51,240
had different rules or lack of rules than you had

437
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:51,680
to follow.

438
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Having no gambling commission

439
00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:00,400
or gaming gaming control board to deal with would make

440
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,640
life a lot easier as a as an operator, you know,

441
00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:05,799
and you know, if you have a new product, or

442
00:25:05,839 --> 00:25:08,720
a new contest, or change your payouts or a new

443
00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:12,759
contest or anything, you know. In Nevada, of course, you

444
00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:16,640
have to go through the regulators to to get approval

445
00:25:16,759 --> 00:25:20,039
on all of those things. And I'm not knocking that

446
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,680
process at all. I think Nevada gaming gaming operators here

447
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,240
as far as sports is concerned, are the best in

448
00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:32,839
the world. And I'm just speaking facetiously when I say

449
00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:35,519
I would have loved to have not had, you know,

450
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,240
dot every every eye and cross every t in order

451
00:25:40,279 --> 00:25:44,079
to operate the sports book within the regulatory constraints. But

452
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,480
when I look back at my career, and I think

453
00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:49,559
that that was one of the best things I ever did,

454
00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:53,960
was taking regulations and laws so seriously that that really

455
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,160
contributed to my longevity in the industry.

456
00:25:57,519 --> 00:26:02,079
Speaker 3: You know, Nevada had the monopoly on sports betting in

457
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,279
the US for so long, and now it seems like

458
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,200
Nevada may be the worst state in the US to

459
00:26:09,319 --> 00:26:14,000
actually be is sports better? The the idea that you

460
00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:19,440
can't deposit without actually going to the casino and depositing,

461
00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:24,000
and and whereas every other state you can sign up

462
00:26:24,039 --> 00:26:28,759
on your phone and deposit, you know, and and right away,

463
00:26:28,839 --> 00:26:32,960
and and we can't use a browser to to bet.

464
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,960
You know. It just seems like Nevada kind of shot themselves,

465
00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:40,960
but a little bit in terms of, uh, coming up

466
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,160
to the modern age.

467
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear that a lot, Richard, and I respect that.

468
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,359
And I understand that, you know, for for real professional

469
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,880
gamblers like yourselves and and and and many others that

470
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,160
those inconveniences are are troublesome and and uh and and

471
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,559
and give you the impression that we're way behind times.

472
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,519
But I'll tell you what you know, this is I've

473
00:27:05,559 --> 00:27:07,200
been out of it now for a few years, and

474
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,799
I've had the opportunity to rethink everything and and I

475
00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:17,400
and I appreciate the stringent regulatory structure in Nevada, including

476
00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:22,920
on the uh uh on the requirement to go into

477
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,319
a sports book physically to open an account. And I'll

478
00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:29,720
tell you why. You know, uh, when I was with

479
00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:32,440
Station Casinos, I mean that that I had, I had

480
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,799
a vested interest in that, in that and you know,

481
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,359
we had many properties, and it was advantageous for us

482
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,599
to to require people to come into the into the

483
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:44,920
sports book. You know, we were all over town and

484
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,000
we you know, the company had invested a lot of

485
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,599
money in in their in their bricks and mortar operations

486
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,440
and so and naturally, uh, you know, it was it

487
00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:58,759
made sense to support that position. But that's not my reasoning.

488
00:27:58,839 --> 00:28:01,319
Now now my reasoning is far different. But I come

489
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,759
to the same conclusion. You know, I see all these

490
00:28:04,799 --> 00:28:07,640
problems going on around the country now and there and there.

491
00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:11,680
It's just ridiculous. Now there's so many uh prop bet

492
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,720
scandals and so forth popping up, popping up all over

493
00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:18,279
the place. You know it not a week goes by,

494
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,960
it seems, where there's not some some new scandal uncovered

495
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:26,640
or allegedly uncovered. But when people have to show up

496
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,480
in person and walk into the counter, and and and

497
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,599
and and fill out an application, and present their I

498
00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:36,839
d that is a great deterrent to that, to the

499
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,839
this kind of foolishness that's going on everywhere else. So uh,

500
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,160
I think we got it right, I really do. And

501
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,039
I if it was up to me, if again, if

502
00:28:46,039 --> 00:28:50,279
I can wave a magic wand I'd say, yeah, players

503
00:28:50,319 --> 00:28:52,759
have to show up in person as because that's that

504
00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:56,799
that alone is a major deterrent. And I love where

505
00:28:57,039 --> 00:29:02,079
New Jersey is going right now. Also in trying to

506
00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:07,319
prohibit customers from wagering on somebody else's account. I forget

507
00:29:07,359 --> 00:29:11,640
what they call that regulation, and I'm not sure right

508
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,519
now if it ever passed and became long. I think

509
00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:21,559
it did. But there they're prohibiting people from using joint accounts. Yeah,

510
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,960
and you know, and I can't tell, you know, the

511
00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:30,400
technology exists today and I don't know if a lot

512
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,119
of book operators even utilize this, but I certainly did.

513
00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:36,799
But you know, I could tell where people were betting

514
00:29:36,839 --> 00:29:41,160
from down to the to the address they were betting from,

515
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,799
and I could tell if somebody's using somebody else's device,

516
00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:50,839
and you know, and those are important tools both are

517
00:29:50,839 --> 00:29:52,279
of the book maker and for the state.

518
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: Back in nineteen eighty five, the Chicago Bears at a

519
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:03,119
defensive lineman William Perry, known as the Refrigerator.

520
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,799
Speaker 1: How did he change your world? Well, he did changed

521
00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:10,839
the gambling world. And in that Super Bowl against the

522
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,160
New England Patriots, I was at Caesar's Palace at the time,

523
00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:18,680
young sportsbook manager, and I put up the prop of

524
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:21,480
will the Fridge score a touchdown in the Super Bowl,

525
00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:24,640
And it got so much media attention it took off

526
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,960
like wildfire. And you know, the coach Didka had said

527
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,079
that the Fridge would never touch the ball again. He

528
00:30:32,079 --> 00:30:35,000
had said it multiple times, and of course in the

529
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,160
first half he comes rumbling in for a score. And

530
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,880
the great Walter Payton never scored a touchdown in that game,

531
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,559
which I still have hard feelings about. But we got killed.

532
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,000
We got killed on that prop. We had a good

533
00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:50,160
game otherwise, but we got killed on that prop. And

534
00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:54,839
I remember the next day, literally the next day, the

535
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,599
chairman of Caesar's World, Henry Glutt in Los Angeles, calls

536
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,680
me personally, first time, I think, the only time I

537
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,240
ever spoke to him in my life, and he calls

538
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,160
me my secretary gets me off the counter, and I thought, oh,

539
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,759
this is the end. I'm dead, and sure enough, he

540
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,319
congratulates me on the publicity and notoriety that I got

541
00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:19,519
for the company and told me that we could not

542
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,240
have purchased that kind of marketing and positive pr for

543
00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:27,200
Caesar's Palace. And he thanked me, congratulated me. And you

544
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,559
know who else noticed, ironically, it was mister Hilton. Mister

545
00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:33,079
Hilton was well aware too, because it wasn't too long

546
00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:36,440
after that that he called me to ask me to

547
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,000
build and run the Las Vegas Hilton Super Book.

548
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,119
Speaker 2: You were involved with some of the biggest price fights

549
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,160
ever to come to Las Vegas or anywhere, negotiating with

550
00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:52,119
legendary promoters Don King and Bob Aram among others. Tell

551
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,279
us about that. That was a really fun part of

552
00:31:55,319 --> 00:31:58,720
my career. I love dealing with those guys. I loved

553
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,519
being in the middle of the biggest fights in the world.

554
00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:07,240
I loved putting those events together, operating them, booking them.

555
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: Uh And you know, it just could not have been

556
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,519
more fun. And in fact, I tell the story in

557
00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:18,839
the book about the Thomas Hearn's marvelous Marvin Hagler fight

558
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,920
at caesar Pallace, which was an air on promotion, and

559
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,720
I was a young executive at that time. But I

560
00:32:25,759 --> 00:32:29,519
told myself that night, and I really I recognized, you know,

561
00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:32,920
the the quality of the event. And I told my

562
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,119
you know, and I knew that we had just put

563
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,799
on one of the best sporting events in the world.

564
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,119
And and I told myself, are kidding me? They actually

565
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,960
pay me for this? Uh? And and and you know,

566
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,400
I just loved it. Uh And I love dealing with

567
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,039
those guys. You know, they both have such a bad rap.

568
00:32:49,079 --> 00:32:51,200
Big people are always criticizing both of them. But I

569
00:32:51,519 --> 00:32:53,880
actually liked both of them, including Dawn. We had a

570
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,640
great time together. We had we put together great events.

571
00:32:58,160 --> 00:32:58,359
Speaker 2: Uh.

572
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: Now, I can't speak to how he treated the fighters.

573
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,920
You know, there's always been allegations of him short changing

574
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,359
the fighters and so forth, and I have no knowledge

575
00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:08,880
of that. I really don't know. But in my dealings

576
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,119
with him, whatever the deal was, he honored it. You know,

577
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,000
he would take advantage of you in the deal with

578
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,599
you let him. But but but he was committed to

579
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,039
making every event that he that he was a part

580
00:33:21,079 --> 00:33:24,200
of with me successful and he worked really hard to

581
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,440
make them successful. Bob was as smart as could be,

582
00:33:27,519 --> 00:33:29,599
and he taught me a lot. But he was, but

583
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,599
he was a little bit more difficult to deal with

584
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,000
for me than Dawn was. And they you know, one

585
00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:39,920
thing that was very true and not exaggerated at all

586
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,599
publicly or in the media, that they hated each other.

587
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,039
That was true. And I got to see that firsthand

588
00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:50,079
when I when we had one event that they co promoted,

589
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,720
and that was the Oscar de la Joya Tito Trinidad fight.

590
00:33:55,759 --> 00:33:57,799
The fight was at Mandalay Bay, but we were the

591
00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:00,400
co promoters at the Las Vegas Hilton. And that was

592
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,359
just such such a blast traveling with both of those

593
00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:08,039
guys and seeing them ripping each other mercilessly off stage

594
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,320
and then come on stage and praise one one another.

595
00:34:12,559 --> 00:34:18,039
Speaker 3: So you you actually built the West Gate, it was

596
00:34:18,079 --> 00:34:21,239
the Hilton at that time. That book, which you know

597
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,440
is still one of the one of the great books

598
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,000
in town. So I mean, how did that come about?

599
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I did, and and and and that was

600
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:32,639
a fun fun also building something and that it wasn't

601
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:35,519
quite from the ground up because the shell was already built.

602
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,400
We just had to fill it in and we had

603
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,039
an enormous space to work with. We had twenty sixtylesand

604
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:43,679
square feet of space, to work with and and and

605
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,760
you know, we put it. There was a poker room,

606
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,960
and there was a bar, and a restaurant and and

607
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:55,480
and uh uh, security and bathrooms and everything else went

608
00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:58,239
into that space. But it was a gigantic race and

609
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,280
sports book. And of course, you know, if you, if you,

610
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,800
if you could remember what the old sports start US

611
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,719
sports book was like, there was a lot of that

612
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,360
that was emulated at the Hilton for sure. And and

613
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,840
and in fact that that same blueprint was emulated at

614
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,679
other places as well. Mandalay Bay in most in particular,

615
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,440
was a was a pretty good copy of the old

616
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,400
Stardust in the Hilton sports books.

617
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 2: Every day, probably or week, there was some game. Maybe

618
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,199
if the Cowboys cover or don't cover, it's going to

619
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,599
cost your company three hundred thousand dollars or some big number.

620
00:35:42,559 --> 00:35:46,719
Did you actually sweat that, because you you had to

621
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,599
win some of those and lose some of those, and

622
00:35:48,599 --> 00:35:52,239
that's just part of the business. How much did you

623
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,480
did you get ulcer sweating that? How did that work

624
00:35:54,519 --> 00:35:54,760
for you?

625
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I did sweat and I did agonize over decision.

626
00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:02,599
When I look back at that, sometimes I get mad

627
00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:06,119
at myself for taking it so personally and sweating games

628
00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:08,760
so much because it disrupted my life in so many

629
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,519
other ways. You know, you couldn't enjoy your family, or

630
00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:14,960
go to dinner and with the family and so forth.

631
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,199
And I regret that part of the business. But at

632
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,480
the same time, I know that without that passion, I

633
00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:24,960
couldn't have been nearly as good at what I did.

634
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:29,639
I needed to look at every dollar at risk as

635
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,119
coming out of my own pocket. And I used to

636
00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:36,039
tell the bookmakers, you book this like you're booking out

637
00:36:36,039 --> 00:36:39,880
of your own pocket, and and that worked for me.

638
00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:45,280
You know, some folks don't sweat. I remember the great

639
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:50,400
Bob Martin, the legendary oddsmaker and close friend of Uncle Jackson.

640
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,679
He didn't sweat at all, and and you know he

641
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,280
had giant decisions all the time, but it never phased him.

642
00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:01,119
But I couldn't do that, just the opposite of that.

643
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,360
I was a nervous wreck sometimes in all honesty.

644
00:37:04,199 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 2: So you.

645
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,119
Speaker 3: Talk about in the book that you would set the

646
00:37:09,199 --> 00:37:15,400
opening lines, and would you I have two questions. One,

647
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,519
would you post your openers off off off what you did,

648
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,360
or would you compare that to somebody else's line before

649
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,719
posting it to see if you were way off from

650
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,440
something else. And my other question is, when you were

651
00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:35,519
creating the line, were you trying to come up with

652
00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:39,360
a number you thought would get equal action on both sides,

653
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,800
or would you sometimes pick a number that you actually

654
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,199
thought was off by a couple of points, but you

655
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,440
thought it would get you more equal action.

656
00:37:51,199 --> 00:37:54,119
Speaker 1: Now, I never tried to do that. I did try

657
00:37:54,159 --> 00:37:56,920
to put up numbers that I thought would would generate

658
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,159
two way action or what I would consider at the

659
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,519
end of the day the right number. Always tried to

660
00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:05,440
put up the right number. But we did all of

661
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,679
the above. We put a lot of manual effort into

662
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,880
coming up with those numbers. We had computer printouts and

663
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,519
power ratings and so on and so forth that projected numbers.

664
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,320
We had consultants whose opinions we valued go into that number.

665
00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:24,880
And then once computerized odds tracking programs were available and

666
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,800
you could see everybody else's numbers whoever was up before you, Yeah,

667
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,480
you would be. You couldn't not look at them. You

668
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,559
had to look at them and take that, excuse me

669
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,280
into consideration before putting up your own numbers. Sure. Now,

670
00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:42,679
now there was certain sports where I had more.

671
00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:45,119
Speaker 3: Say than in others.

672
00:38:45,159 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: You know, in big events, my opinion would matter a lot,

673
00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:53,199
But on day to day basket ball and so forth,

674
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,440
you know, I didn't. I usually didn't weigh in on

675
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,400
those things, at least not late in my career, the

676
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,880
last ten or fifteen years, I didn't weigh in on

677
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,239
daily activity at all. But on NFL I always did,

678
00:39:05,559 --> 00:39:07,719
and on fights I always did. And on fights I

679
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,960
would put my opinion into those odds a little bit

680
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:11,960
more than anything else.

681
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,679
Speaker 3: Also, you know, for in the past, the Westgate the

682
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,519
Hilton was always the first to put up the Super

683
00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:27,000
Bowl props, and guys would stand in line to you know,

684
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:29,400
to be the first to be able to get to

685
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,480
bet them. Was that during your time or did that

686
00:39:33,519 --> 00:39:34,719
come after you left?

687
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,079
Speaker 1: Now? That mostly came after I left. Now, Like I said,

688
00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:41,880
I was, I was always involved in props, it going

689
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,960
all the way back to you know, the early days

690
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:50,320
of at my early days at Caesars, and it expanded

691
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,000
while I was at the Hilton. And I was at

692
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,000
the Hilton for fifteen years, so the betting menu on

693
00:39:56,039 --> 00:39:58,719
the Super Bowl certainly expanded over those years. But after

694
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,719
I left the Hilton and A came in and ran

695
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,119
it I mean, he took it to a completely different level.

696
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,079
He put up, you know, sheet sheet after sheet after

697
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:10,360
sheet of of of propositions on the Super Bowl, and

698
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,719
that worked for him and and that and his business.

699
00:40:14,039 --> 00:40:16,159
I thought it was a little too much myself. I

700
00:40:16,599 --> 00:40:21,559
thought that, uh, quality was more important than quantity and

701
00:40:22,199 --> 00:40:24,679
uh and I was always afraid that the you know,

702
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,760
if you put out a million props, that there's going

703
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,920
to be a few in there that you got you

704
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,280
have bad prices on and and and and the sharp

705
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,400
guys out there are going to find it. You know.

706
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,840
The general public may may never look at it, but

707
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,719
but somebody will and if there's a mistake, they'll find it.

708
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,519
So I I didn't go that extreme. I never did.

709
00:40:44,119 --> 00:40:47,039
The one thing that I disagree a little bit with

710
00:40:47,079 --> 00:40:52,400
some of my colleagues on was college props. I was

711
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,719
never a fan of taking individual performance props on college players. Now,

712
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,199
the last few years, or maybe last several years of

713
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,800
my career at stations, I did wind up putting them up.

714
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,280
I did you know I would. I'm sure I would

715
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,639
have had props tomorrow on the or tonight, excuse me,

716
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,440
tonight on the college football Championship or you know, the

717
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,599
Final four and so forth. But I did it because

718
00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:21,239
you had to do it at that point to keep

719
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,280
up with the Joneses Joneses. I didn't like it. I

720
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:30,000
didn't think it made sense to put kids in that

721
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,760
situation where their individual performance was determining the winners and

722
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,920
losers of betting propositions pros. I looked at differently, completely differently.

723
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,679
I agree. You know, I would book a lot of

724
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,880
props if I was in the business today on the

725
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,840
pros in spite of these terrible stories that have come

726
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,119
out on pro sports in the last couple of years.

727
00:41:52,679 --> 00:41:56,639
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well on college too, especially in the old days

728
00:41:56,679 --> 00:41:59,440
when they weren't making any money. You know, a few

729
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,480
thousand bus to a college kid is is a lot

730
00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:05,519
of money. I mean, now there are kids in college

731
00:42:05,559 --> 00:42:06,760
making a million dollars.

732
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,519
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, yeah, but like this story that came out

733
00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:12,800
this week or last week, right at the end of

734
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,199
last week. You know, those are really small schools, some

735
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,559
of them, and those kids aren't making that kind of money.

736
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,119
And now you know, because these are crimes of opportunity,

737
00:42:23,199 --> 00:42:27,079
in my opinion, what's happening, and and by being available

738
00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:30,679
in their environment wherever they live and they see the

739
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,719
advertising and so on and so forth, and they nobody

740
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,559
has to go into the sports book. Nobody's on video surveillance. Uh.

741
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,679
You know, these these these problems are happening too often

742
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,360
now and it's become really troublesome. And and you know

743
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:52,079
with great, great old uh gambler, book maker, casino operator

744
00:42:52,119 --> 00:42:55,400
in the old days, I'm talking about Meyer Landscape and

745
00:42:55,519 --> 00:42:59,480
you know what, he was quoted uh many times as

746
00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:02,840
saying that the integrity is the most important part of

747
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,280
the gambling business. And once you lose integrity, you've lost everything.

748
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,719
And he was completely right, and I agree. I agree

749
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,039
with him on that one hundred percent. And sports is

750
00:43:14,079 --> 00:43:16,880
at risk now in America of losing credibility.

751
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: One of the books that came out after You're retired

752
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:27,320
was Circa and it's It's some people consider it the

753
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,199
best book in Vegas these days. Do you consider it

754
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,159
that or have you thought about that? That's not in

755
00:43:33,199 --> 00:43:36,360
the book. But I just wanted to ask a question

756
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:37,679
while I had the opportunity.

757
00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it's a beautiful book. It's a beautiful

758
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,840
facility and there that pool deck is incredible and they're

759
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,519
very aggressive in book making and you know that that

760
00:43:47,519 --> 00:43:51,320
that that is working for them. I look at that

761
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:57,199
property as the first property that build a hotel casino

762
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,960
around the sports book instead of the other way around.

763
00:44:00,679 --> 00:44:04,119
Everybody else built a sports book in a hotel casino

764
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,880
before Sarka's different. Sarka built the whole the whole joint

765
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,679
is built around the sports book. And you know, that

766
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,960
was a huge gamble, a huge gamble for that property

767
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,039
and their owner, and I think it's working for them.

768
00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:22,280
You know, drawing crowds downtown and competing downtown is not

769
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,960
an easy business model, but I think they're getting there.

770
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 3: You know. It's it's interesting that in the book you

771
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,239
talked about how much you loved parlays, you know, because

772
00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:38,360
the edge is bigger for the book on the on

773
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:44,199
the parlays and especially the way they're sort of many

774
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,800
books are raping the customer around same game parlays with

775
00:44:48,079 --> 00:44:51,679
you know, twenty five thirty percent juice or whatever. Well,

776
00:44:51,679 --> 00:44:56,239
what's also interesting is like when Circa limits players, the

777
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,320
first thing they do is take away parlays. They're not

778
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,039
allowed to bet parlays at all. When you get limited

779
00:45:03,039 --> 00:45:07,119
at Circa. Yeah, it's so I.

780
00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 1: Don't understand that it's the first I've heard of that, Richard.

781
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,639
I can't defend it. That sounds strange to me. My

782
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,360
approach was one hundred and eighty degrees opposite that. You know.

783
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,519
I would take on just about all comers and parlays

784
00:45:22,559 --> 00:45:26,599
almost as much anything they wanted to bet. And of course,

785
00:45:27,039 --> 00:45:29,679
I mean, you guys are geniuses in this area. I mean,

786
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,320
you know how the theoretical advantage multiplies with each leg

787
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,840
of a parlay that you include in a parlay. So yeah,

788
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,880
I always wanted the math working for me. And by

789
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,079
the way, before we get off this discussion, I want

790
00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:45,840
to get into that a little bit if you don't mind,

791
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,400
don't mind at all. Yeah, you guys, you know I

792
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,719
know how, or at least I think I know how

793
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,679
important analytics is to you and how you date, crunch

794
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,199
data and look at theoretical and mathematical advantages in the

795
00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:03,639
gambling world. And and and you know, I think I

796
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,360
was one of the first guys, at least in the

797
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,000
Nevada industry, that brought in a full time analyst into

798
00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:13,280
the sportsbook department. And and and I was so pleased

799
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,920
with uh with with moving in that direction. And I

800
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,800
remember telling people I said, this is like cheating. You know,

801
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,559
I felt I had so much advantage, you know, with

802
00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:27,920
having having a great numbers cruncher and and oh yeah,

803
00:46:28,159 --> 00:46:30,440
and Bob, I was speaking a little bit earlier about

804
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,679
a seminar that I attended that you participated in many

805
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,920
years ago, and that opened my eyes to analytics a

806
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,039
little bit. And shortly after that, there was a great

807
00:46:40,079 --> 00:46:45,159
book that came out, uh, Freakonomics and yeah, and that

808
00:46:45,159 --> 00:46:48,679
that really opened my eyes even further about you know

809
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,920
how how you know analyzing data like that could be

810
00:46:53,119 --> 00:46:55,760
so useful for a book maker and I and I

811
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,639
took advantage of it for the rest of my career.

812
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 3: Now, were you using analytics to analyze, uh, setting your

813
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,159
lines or were you using it to look at your customers?

814
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: But well, not so much for uh uh make setting

815
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,119
point spreads or making lines, but in payouts, in parlay payouts,

816
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:19,280
teaser payouts, uh and and so for contest rules, contest

817
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:23,760
payouts you know, you know, uh, the house rules as

818
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:29,480
related to payouts changed dramatically once I had proper analytics. Yeah,

819
00:47:29,559 --> 00:47:31,400
and I'll tell you another thing that I discovered late

820
00:47:31,519 --> 00:47:33,719
late in my career. Now, this didn't surprise me at all.

821
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:35,440
I knew this was the case, but I could never

822
00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:39,719
prove it. I did a did a real in depth,

823
00:47:40,079 --> 00:47:45,679
in depth study of the prominent college UH football and

824
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:51,039
college basketball UH conferences versus the small conferences and the

825
00:47:51,159 --> 00:47:55,519
you know, the the UH you know, lower level UH leagues,

826
00:47:56,119 --> 00:47:59,519
and and I knew that we didn't make any money

827
00:47:59,559 --> 00:48:01,639
on those on those leagues. And we made all the

828
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,880
money on the big conferences, you know, on the ACC

829
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,840
in basketball or what you know whatever. You made your

830
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,440
money on the big marquee games and leagues, and the

831
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,719
small conferences you make you make almost nothing. So there

832
00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:19,920
could not be should not be the same limits on

833
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,599
the small conferences that there are in the big ones.

834
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,599
And when I read that story last week about the

835
00:48:25,679 --> 00:48:28,360
you know, gigantic bets that were being placed on those

836
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,440
small conferences in those games, I said, well, they're just

837
00:48:31,519 --> 00:48:34,440
inviting problems. They're you know, whoever took those bets is

838
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,079
inviting challenges.

839
00:48:36,679 --> 00:48:39,559
Speaker 2: My last question for you, it's not in the book,

840
00:48:40,199 --> 00:48:44,440
but one of your good friends, Chris Andrews, works for

841
00:48:44,599 --> 00:48:49,519
the South Point YEP my cousin, and he would say

842
00:48:49,639 --> 00:48:53,880
sometimes Michael Bonne, the owner, would come to him and say,

843
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,960
you know, who do we need tonight? Chris often would say, well,

844
00:48:58,159 --> 00:49:04,000
we're pretty much square, were open anyway, doesn't matter, And

845
00:49:04,039 --> 00:49:09,519
so Michael Gonn would say, well change the Cowboy odds

846
00:49:09,559 --> 00:49:12,880
by half percent so we'll get more action and I

847
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:18,360
have something to root for during dinner. Did you ever

848
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,639
have an owner or a boss who would do that?

849
00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:27,559
Speaker 1: Not really, No, there was pressure sometimes to do that,

850
00:49:27,639 --> 00:49:30,960
but I really frowned upon it and I put that

851
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,079
to rest. I didn't didn't go along with that. You know. Chris,

852
00:49:35,119 --> 00:49:37,440
of course I love and I think he's a great bookmaker,

853
00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:41,559
best bookmaker in our family. And Michael Gone I have

854
00:49:41,639 --> 00:49:43,920
nothing but respect for. But I and I can see

855
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,280
him doing that if one of his favorite teams playing, Yeah,

856
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,039
he wants to root for his team, if it's Nebraska

857
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,400
or the Cowboys or whoever it is. Yeah, yeah, No,

858
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,239
I didn't like that. I'll tell you one funny story

859
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,719
before before we conclude, though. One year we were going

860
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,320
through a really rough baseball season. You know, it was

861
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,800
just a drag where we were getting beat at the

862
00:50:05,079 --> 00:50:08,400
day after day, and one time we lost about a

863
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,400
quarter million in baseball one day, you know, and all

864
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,239
the good teams were playing all the bad teams. You know,

865
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,880
it was the you know, the Yankees and the Dodgers

866
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,440
and the Red Sox and whoever was good at that time.

867
00:50:19,679 --> 00:50:23,679
We're playing all the bottom dweller and and and so

868
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,599
we get you know, every parlay, every bet is on,

869
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,280
is on the good teams, is on the favorites. And

870
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,800
they swept the board and we got killed. And then

871
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:34,639
and then and then the next day there's the same

872
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,360
teams are still playing one another, and again all the

873
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,880
good teams went and again we got slaughtered. And the

874
00:50:41,559 --> 00:50:44,920
president of the Confry called me out and told me,

875
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,440
he told me, literally, no more parlays against those bad teams.

876
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,000
You got to tell him, no more parlay against the

877
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,800
White Sox or and the reds or you know, and

878
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,760
the bad teams. And I said, we can't do them.

879
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,599
We can't do it. And he was seriously said no,

880
00:50:59,639 --> 00:51:02,639
I'm telling that's it, no more. And so I go

881
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,679
running up. I go running across the street and go

882
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:09,199
running up to his office. And then we we can't

883
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,480
do this, I was pleading. I guess we're our reputation,

884
00:51:12,639 --> 00:51:15,400
our credibility, it's going to be out the window. Uh.

885
00:51:15,599 --> 00:51:19,199
And while I was having this discussion that the chairman

886
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,480
walks in wat's it and ask me, what are you

887
00:51:21,519 --> 00:51:23,239
guys talk What are you doing? What are you guys

888
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,519
talking about? And we told him and and and he

889
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,679
he he says, he looks at the at the boss

890
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:35,800
and it says, are you fricking nuts? And then he

891
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,519
looks at me and said, I guess you were right,

892
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,320
but I dodged the bullet that time. That almost happened.

893
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 3: And you know, the gambling business is so strong that

894
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,480
they often make money in spite of themselves. I mean,

895
00:51:49,599 --> 00:51:52,840
you know, like they don't really understand the gambling part

896
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:53,960
of the gambling business.

897
00:51:54,119 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: You know. Well, you know there was an old time

898
00:51:56,559 --> 00:52:00,920
UH executive that I always used to say that winters,

899
00:52:01,079 --> 00:52:04,199
you know, when I would be sweating and you know,

900
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:08,760
upset when we lost UH, they'd say, winners make gamblers.

901
00:52:09,079 --> 00:52:12,360
And you know, over time that sunk in and I

902
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,079
knew he was right that they if they don't have

903
00:52:15,159 --> 00:52:19,639
those days, there's nobody coming back. And and you have

904
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,199
to tolerate that in the business. Of course.

905
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 3: I have one question before we go. Favorite restaurant in

906
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,280
Las Vegas that's not in the casino.

907
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 1: Oh boy, but you know, I love Tuscany, an Italian

908
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,119
restaurant on the on the east side, on the south

909
00:52:39,199 --> 00:52:44,800
southeast side, on southeast on eastern in Henderson. But it's

910
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,280
changing hands now, so I don't know how it's going

911
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,239
to be, but right now that that is one of

912
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,199
my favorite, my favorite restaurants, not in a casino. That

913
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,280
eliminates a lot of my favorite restaurants.

914
00:52:57,639 --> 00:52:59,519
Speaker 3: Bob's too, Bob is always eating.

915
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,679
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there was a Greek restaurant here in Boulder

916
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,480
City where I lived that was my favorite, but the

917
00:53:05,639 --> 00:53:09,679
owner retired and moved away a few years ago. You

918
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:11,440
know what, I got to think about that. That's a

919
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,480
much tougher question than I than I would then it

920
00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:16,199
should be. But I got to think about that one.

921
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad I've never tried Tuscany, so I will

922
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:21,280
check that out.

923
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,159
Speaker 1: Good and and and and the the owners are the

924
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,519
horse players and been around They've been around the block

925
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:28,480
a little bit.

926
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,119
Speaker 3: But you know what Damon Runyon said about horse players,

927
00:53:31,199 --> 00:53:34,800
So what's that all horse players died broke.

928
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. And my good friend who passed away now a

929
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:46,039
few years ago, several years ago, Hank Goldberg. He was

930
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:48,159
a horse player, till the end. And you mentioned Jimmy

931
00:53:48,159 --> 00:53:50,559
the Greek earlier that the same same with Jimmy the Greek,

932
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,159
uh just you know as well as he did in sports,

933
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:56,519
but I broke as a race player.

934
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 2: If any of our listeners want to get in contact

935
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,679
with you, is there an email or something that you

936
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:05,599
can give out to our listeners.

937
00:54:06,079 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 3: Or are you on any social media?

938
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 1: I am not, but I'm contemplating it right now. I

939
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,400
am not. I tell people I'm waiting to see if

940
00:54:15,599 --> 00:54:19,519
if they're going to catch on in social media.

941
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,039
Speaker 3: But no, I've never been on social media.

942
00:54:21,119 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: I did get on I am on LinkedIn right now,

943
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,480
so that's the best way to reach me right now.

944
00:54:26,519 --> 00:54:30,119
I'm debating right now whether to get on something else

945
00:54:30,199 --> 00:54:32,320
like twit, Twitter or something right now with the book

946
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,119
just coming out, but I'm not right now.

947
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,559
Speaker 2: All right, Thank you very much, Art. It's a pleasure

948
00:54:38,599 --> 00:54:41,440
listening to you. I've known your name for years. Glad

949
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,320
to finally meet you. Thank you very much, real pleasure

950
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,079
to talk to you, guys. Thank you, Richard, go out

951
00:54:47,159 --> 00:54:48,920
hit lots of royal flushes everybody.

952
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:49,760
Speaker 1: Good day.