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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

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<v Speaker 1>of our series about the unexplained death of Colonel Phillips Shoe. Robin,

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<v Speaker 1>do you want to catch everwing up when we talked

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<v Speaker 1>about in our previous episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, a central figure is fifty four year old Colonel

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<v Speaker 2>Phillip Schoe, who works as a staff psychiatrist for the

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<v Speaker 2>United States Air Force. He's living in Kendall County, Texas

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<v Speaker 2>and working at a base in San Antonio, And this

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<v Speaker 2>is April two thousand and three, and he is getting

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<v Speaker 2>ready to retire with his wife Tracy. They've already brought

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<v Speaker 2>a new house in Alabama and are planning a new life.

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<v Speaker 2>But one day, when Phil left to go to work,

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<v Speaker 2>he wound up any bad car accident and was killed.

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<v Speaker 2>And they discovered a lot of strange details. He had

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<v Speaker 2>duct tape around his wrists and his feet, he had

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<v Speaker 2>a large gash in his chest, and most creepily enough,

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<v Speaker 2>both of his nipples have been removed. And there was

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<v Speaker 2>a window of about two and a half hours between

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<v Speaker 2>when he left home before he got into his fatal crash,

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<v Speaker 2>and his wife and many other people believed that someone

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<v Speaker 2>abducted him and tortured him, but he managed to make

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<v Speaker 2>an escape and by sheer coincidence, he crashed his car

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<v Speaker 2>and was killed. But surprisingly, the authorities ruled that he

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<v Speaker 2>had committed a very elaborate suicide and mutilated himself before

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<v Speaker 2>he intentionally crashed his car. There were very divisive opinions

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<v Speaker 2>on it, but the police and the Air Force refused

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<v Speaker 2>to change the suicide ruling, and as far as possible theories,

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<v Speaker 2>they looked into Philip's ex wife, who had a lucrative

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<v Speaker 2>insurance policy out on him, which meant that she would

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<v Speaker 2>be paid a lot of money in the event of

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<v Speaker 2>his death. They finally took the matter to court and

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<v Speaker 2>she pled the Fifth Amendment to every question, so there's

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<v Speaker 2>still a lot of mysterious details about whether or not

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<v Speaker 2>she could have been responsible. And even though a judge

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<v Speaker 2>at a civil trial said that he believed that Colonel

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<v Speaker 2>Shoe's death was a homicide, the authorities have still refused

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<v Speaker 2>to change it and remains a suicide ruling to this day.

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<v Speaker 2>But we have differing accounts from doctor Vincent de Mayo,

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<v Speaker 2>who believed that it was a suicide, whereas doctor ciro

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<v Speaker 2>Weck believed it was a homicide. And the more you

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<v Speaker 2>look at each theory, the more you realize that no

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<v Speaker 2>one theory makes one hundred percent complete sense. So that's

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<v Speaker 2>why we've got a lot to talk about on both

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<v Speaker 2>of our episodes. And like I said, what adds to

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<v Speaker 2>the controversy of this case is that two of the

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<v Speaker 2>world's most famous forensic pathologists have performed or overseen autopsies

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<v Speaker 2>on Colonel Shoe and reached different conclusions. Like I just said,

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<v Speaker 2>doctor Vincent de Mayo believes his death was a suicide

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<v Speaker 2>and doctor Curo Weck believes he was the victim of

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<v Speaker 2>foul play. Even though both men are very famous figures

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<v Speaker 2>in their field, that's not to say that either of

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<v Speaker 2>them is infallible. And I've always reached the most logical conclusion.

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<v Speaker 2>So your opinion on this case might depend on whether

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<v Speaker 2>you find de Mayo or Weck to be a more

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<v Speaker 2>credible source, and if the differing opinions from both these

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<v Speaker 2>men wasn't enough, there's also the finding from Kendall County

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<v Speaker 2>Court of Law Judge Bill Palmer that Colonel Hue was

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<v Speaker 2>the victim of a homicide. I mean, I know that

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<v Speaker 2>Tracy Hue took that as a victory of sorts. But

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<v Speaker 2>the issue is that Judge Palmer made the statement during

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<v Speaker 2>a civil trial, which was based around determining whether or

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<v Speaker 2>not an insurance company should be held liable for not

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<v Speaker 2>canceling the policy that Phil's ex wife, Nancy had on them.

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<v Speaker 2>The trial had nothing to do with figuring out if

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<v Speaker 2>Phil's death was a suicide or homicide, but Judge Palmer

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<v Speaker 2>took it upon himself to make that statement. Regardless of

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<v Speaker 2>whether or not you believe he was right, it does

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<v Speaker 2>not sound like he had the full legal authority to

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<v Speaker 2>change the official ruling, which is why Phil's death is

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<v Speaker 2>still listed on the record as a suicide. Well, I

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<v Speaker 2>think the one thing we can all agree on is

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<v Speaker 2>that even if it was a suicide, the original investigation

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<v Speaker 2>was botched in a huge way and there are just

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<v Speaker 2>too many discrepancies which have never been adequately accounted for.

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<v Speaker 3>This is one of those where you really do feel

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<v Speaker 3>for his family, where they're struggling with the actual definition

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<v Speaker 3>of how he died right the cause of death for them.

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<v Speaker 3>You have this man who had plans he was getting

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<v Speaker 3>ready to move with his wife. He was actually going

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<v Speaker 3>to start a fellowship and do some more psychiatry work

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<v Speaker 3>down in Alabama, where he was going, and so this

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<v Speaker 3>idea that he left in seemingly normal spirits that day

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<v Speaker 3>and ended up deceased in such a bizarre fashion. The family,

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<v Speaker 3>I think, not really understanding how it could be a

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<v Speaker 3>suicide would add so much to the grief and trauma

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<v Speaker 3>that they're experiencing. And the support you get when your

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<v Speaker 3>loved one is a victim of let's say, homicide or

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<v Speaker 3>an accident, versus some judgment that society gives you. When

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<v Speaker 3>your loved one complete suicide, I think you have that

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<v Speaker 3>to add to the situation too. So his poor family's

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<v Speaker 3>begging for answers, saying, this doesn't fit our loved one's personality,

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<v Speaker 3>his life course, any of the things that were going

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<v Speaker 3>on at the time. How could you rule this as suicide?

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<v Speaker 3>Like you said, Robin, Let's say it was one of

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<v Speaker 3>these just elaborate, bizarre suicides. We've seen them before. I

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<v Speaker 3>think the fact that the police didn't break down the

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<v Speaker 3>crime scene and didn't look through that car as carefully

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<v Speaker 3>as they could have, and they made that assumption from

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<v Speaker 3>the start really hurt not only the case but the

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<v Speaker 3>family as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I see a lot of parallels here with the Cindy

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<v Speaker 1>James case because I can't remember where you both fell

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<v Speaker 1>on it, but personally, I do believe that she was

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<v Speaker 1>being stalked in harassed. But I do think that it's

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<v Speaker 1>fifty to fifty, maybe even sixty forty for me, that

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<v Speaker 1>she chose to end her own life and it was

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<v Speaker 1>just in very bizarre circumstances, and the police just didn't

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<v Speaker 1>investigate the crime scene properly, so we really won't know

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<v Speaker 1>either way. But I think it was this threat of

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<v Speaker 1>violence or the terror that was just so palpable in

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<v Speaker 1>her life because of this person who was stalking her.

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<v Speaker 1>And we also had the psychiatrist ex doctor Roy makepeace

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<v Speaker 1>on the periphery there, and there was an odd relationship

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<v Speaker 1>dynamic there. But I think that it's a possibility here

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<v Speaker 1>that his ex wife and that feeling that he may

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<v Speaker 1>be killed could have contributed to the situation at hand

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<v Speaker 1>if it was indeed a suicide, But I'm not one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred percent sold on that. Do you guys think that

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<v Speaker 1>there's similarities between the two cases.

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<v Speaker 2>I think so because I have the same thoughts on

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<v Speaker 2>Cindy James as you did, where I do believe she

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<v Speaker 2>probably staged some of her harassment, but I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>it would have been physically possible for her to stage

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<v Speaker 2>all of it over the course of six and a

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<v Speaker 2>half years without being caught. So I don't think she

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<v Speaker 2>faced some stocking ha harassment at least at the beginning,

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<v Speaker 2>and it probably caused some sort of mental breakdown. And

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<v Speaker 2>as we're going to talk about, there's kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>similar thing going on here in Phil's case, because he

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<v Speaker 2>had received an anonymous letter four years before his death

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<v Speaker 2>warning him that his ex wife is going to try

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<v Speaker 2>to kill him to cash herou on the insurance policy,

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<v Speaker 2>and he had a hard time getting the authorities to

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<v Speaker 2>believe him. He was living with a lot of paranoia

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<v Speaker 2>and anxiety, so you could think that maybe that contributed

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<v Speaker 2>to a possible mental breakdown in a possible suicide. But

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<v Speaker 2>you have to think that there's something real here that

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<v Speaker 2>he probably should have had a good reasons to be

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<v Speaker 2>scared for his life.

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<v Speaker 1>It's no secret that Tracy personally believes that Nancy Shu

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<v Speaker 1>Timpson was responsible for Phil's death because she was hoping

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<v Speaker 1>to cash in on his insurance policies. Since Nancy was

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<v Speaker 1>a bored certified sex therapist who studied the practice of

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<v Speaker 1>sado masochism. Tracy thought that she might have been capable

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<v Speaker 1>of torturing Phil and performing such gruesome acts as slicing

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<v Speaker 1>off his nipples. When Tracy was interviewed on the forty

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<v Speaker 1>eight Hours episode by correspondent Troy Roberts, he has to

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<v Speaker 1>fill ever an interest in sato masochism or a fetish

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<v Speaker 1>for pain in which he could experience sexual pleasure through

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<v Speaker 1>self mutilation. Tracy responded by saying, quote, No, he did not,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's interesting that you would ask that question, because

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<v Speaker 1>you were actually the first person out of the entire

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<v Speaker 1>five year timeframe that has ever asked me that question,

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<v Speaker 1>and I do believe it is an appropriate question to ask.

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<v Speaker 1>End quote. Indeed, I suppose an alternate theory is that

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<v Speaker 1>Phil's death might not have been a suicide, but rather

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<v Speaker 1>the results of an odd sato masochistic sex game gone wrong,

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<v Speaker 1>which led him to being killed in a fatal car crash.

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<v Speaker 1>But it doesn't sound like there was anything found in

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<v Speaker 1>Phil's background to suggest that he had some sort of

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<v Speaker 1>double life or any dark secrets. I know. Doctor Demeyo

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<v Speaker 1>believed that scratch abrasions found around the gash on Phil's

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<v Speaker 1>chest were consistent with hesitation wounds, as if he had

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<v Speaker 1>to work up the will to cut himself, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>worth noting that there were no signs of hesitation marks

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<v Speaker 1>around the cuts on Phil's mutilated nipples. If Phil really

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<v Speaker 1>did inflict all those wounds on himself, it may have

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<v Speaker 1>been the results of some sort of mental breakdown. Looking

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<v Speaker 1>through Phil's psychological autopsy report, it seems like all of

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<v Speaker 1>the issues with depression, paranoia, and anxiety began in May

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety nine, after he received that anonymous typewritten letter

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<v Speaker 1>which warned that Nancy and her husband Donald were planning

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<v Speaker 1>to have Phil killed in order to cash in on

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<v Speaker 1>his life insurance. If the letter was legitimate and Nancy

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<v Speaker 1>and Donald were responsible for Phil's death, you might be

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<v Speaker 1>wondering why it took them four years to actually go

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<v Speaker 1>through with it. But let's not forget that after Phil

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<v Speaker 1>received the letter, he contacted Nancy in order to confront

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<v Speaker 1>her about it, so she may have felt that killing

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<v Speaker 1>him a short time later would arouse too much suspicion

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<v Speaker 1>and decided to hold off on her plan. I still

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<v Speaker 1>find it a bit surprising that Nancy was allowed to

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<v Speaker 1>retain these life insurance policies as part of their divorce settlement,

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<v Speaker 1>because well, it might be a bit unsettling to know

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<v Speaker 1>that an expouse whom you're no longer on good terms

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<v Speaker 1>with stands to gain one million from your death.

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<v Speaker 3>It's really interesting. I mean, you do see settlements like

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<v Speaker 3>that where someone says, listen, I was married to you

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<v Speaker 3>for so long, and I'm going to benefit from kind

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<v Speaker 3>of that investment in you when you're deceased, right, we're

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<v Speaker 3>going I'm going to retain that. So that's not completely

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<v Speaker 3>crazy abnormal, but my goodness, wouldn't it cause some anxiety

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<v Speaker 3>when you're not on good terms with that spouse anymore

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<v Speaker 3>and there's threats to your life. What I find interesting

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<v Speaker 3>is that Phil is getting help. He's getting psychological support.

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<v Speaker 3>He himself is a psychiatrist, so he is very well

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<v Speaker 3>aware of his own mental fortitude, i'd assume, and he's

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<v Speaker 3>asking for assistance with the anxiety and depression and paranoia.

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<v Speaker 3>When you talk about the sado masochism, I feel like,

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<v Speaker 3>what the heck would happen if you had a secret life.

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<v Speaker 3>Your wife says, no, you're not interested in that, which

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<v Speaker 3>I would find it very bizarre. You would never approach

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<v Speaker 3>her with like this fantasy, right and tell her. But

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<v Speaker 3>let's say he did hide that life. If he came

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<v Speaker 3>home with missing nipples and or any other kind of

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<v Speaker 3>major injuries on his own body, it would cause incredible

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<v Speaker 3>kind of I don't know distress between the couple, right, like,

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<v Speaker 3>what were you doing? I didn't know this about you?

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<v Speaker 3>So I just don't see him doing that as part

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<v Speaker 3>of a sexual fantasy unless it was ultimately going to

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<v Speaker 3>lead into his suicide, because you can't go home with

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<v Speaker 3>missing nipples and your wife, not now.

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<v Speaker 1>And wouldn't he have scars too?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure, like from other incidences where he came

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<v Speaker 3>home to her and it wasn't severe.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I've heard nothing to indicate that there were situations

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<v Speaker 2>like that where he came home with unexplained scars or

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<v Speaker 2>injuries that made Tracy ask, what is that?

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<v Speaker 1>And are we supposed to believe that he's going to

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<v Speaker 1>get up at six am to go and have some

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<v Speaker 1>sado masochistic sex game that somehow goes awry before he's

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<v Speaker 1>set to go to work, when we know this is

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<v Speaker 1>preudibly atypical for him. He doesn't usually leave this early.

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<v Speaker 1>It just seems like something that would be done after dark.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. I'm not a morning person, but I can't

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<v Speaker 2>imagine doing that at between six and seven am.

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<v Speaker 3>No, No, I didn't think about the fact that I'm like, hey,

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<v Speaker 3>you're gonna hurt me and I'm gonna put my work

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<v Speaker 3>clothes on and go to work like that. It just

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't make any sense.

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<v Speaker 1>And is he meeting like a partner in some way

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<v Speaker 1>or is this someone whom he's paying for this? And

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<v Speaker 1>would those people be operating at like six am? It

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<v Speaker 1>just it all seems very odd.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, those who believe that Phil's death was a suicide

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<v Speaker 2>hold the position that he fabricated the anonymous letter himself,

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<v Speaker 2>and I have to acknowledge that there are definitely some

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<v Speaker 2>things about it which seem really off. The writer starts

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<v Speaker 2>off by saying, quote, I'm writing because I remember you

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<v Speaker 2>with such a kind and caring doctor. So this would

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<v Speaker 2>imply that they personally knew Phil or cross paths with

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<v Speaker 2>them in the past. But here is the exact wording

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<v Speaker 2>of the next line, quote A friend of mine who

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<v Speaker 2>worked with Don your ex wife's husband, told me some

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<v Speaker 2>scary things. I don't know Don or your ex wife.

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<v Speaker 2>Myself sorry, I don't even know her name end quote. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't know where exactly the writer was from, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'm assuming it would be Florida since that's where Nancy

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<v Speaker 2>and Donald were living at the time. Colonel Shue was

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<v Speaker 2>stationed at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida years earlier,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's not implausible that the writer could have originally

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<v Speaker 2>met him there. But I find it very strange that

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<v Speaker 2>this person seemed to know enough about Phil's background that

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<v Speaker 2>they managed to dig up his address in Texas and

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<v Speaker 2>also knew the first name of his ex wife's current husband,

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<v Speaker 2>yet they don't know his ex wife's actual name. The

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00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:41.960
<v Speaker 2>writer seems to be passing along thirdhand information that they

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00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.559
<v Speaker 2>heard from a friend of theirs, but wouldn't this friend

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<v Speaker 2>had been able to tell them Nancy's name. The phrase

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00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:50.480
<v Speaker 2>my friend is used a lot in this letter, with

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<v Speaker 2>sentences like quote, my friend told me they wish you

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<v Speaker 2>were dead so they could collect life insurance. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>understand why they would have life insurance on you, but

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<v Speaker 2>that's what my friend told me me. My friend thinks

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00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.039
<v Speaker 2>they may actually be planning something end quote. Well, if

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00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:08.440
<v Speaker 2>this friend actually exists and they overheard someone discussing a

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00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:11.000
<v Speaker 2>murder plot. It's surprising that they never went to the

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00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:14.759
<v Speaker 2>authorities or came forward to corroborate the writer's story. Even

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<v Speaker 2>if Phil did not fabricate this letter, I still feel

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<v Speaker 2>the writer may have been fudging certain details or not

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<v Speaker 2>telling the whole story.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know when you get this letter. I don't

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00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:27.840
<v Speaker 3>think Phil wrote it himself. I really don't. I think

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00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:30.519
<v Speaker 3>that's incredibly bizarre, and he wouldn't have been having this

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<v Speaker 3>kind of four year mental health break in the position

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00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:35.559
<v Speaker 3>that he's in. I just think he was too accomplished

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<v Speaker 3>in his career, and I think he was showing incredible

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00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:42.919
<v Speaker 3>growth and stability and peace as he's making a transition

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00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.559
<v Speaker 3>in life. So I just don't see him fabricating this

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00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:50.080
<v Speaker 3>letter four years earlier, calling his ex wife who doesn't

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00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.320
<v Speaker 3>get along with and begging her to please drop these

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00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:56.000
<v Speaker 3>policies because he's scared for his life. So I think

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00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:58.559
<v Speaker 3>that can be ruled out. When you are talking about

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00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:03.759
<v Speaker 3>somebody who would overhear a new husband talking about trying

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00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:08.639
<v Speaker 3>to kill Phil, I definitely am in your boat, Robin.

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00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.399
<v Speaker 3>When you say he doesn't know the ex wife's name,

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00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:13.840
<v Speaker 3>There's just no way like he'd be saying Nancy and

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<v Speaker 3>I need this done. Nancy wants this done. Nancy has

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00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.519
<v Speaker 3>an insurance policy on him. Her name would be used

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00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:25.240
<v Speaker 3>in this conversation as to why you need him killed? Right,

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<v Speaker 3>And how would you even know he's linked to Nancy

292
00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:30.960
<v Speaker 3>unless her name had been used? So I don't know.

293
00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:33.679
<v Speaker 3>It's just really interesting when you say did he write it?

294
00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:36.399
<v Speaker 3>I don't think so at all. But whoever did write it?

295
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<v Speaker 3>Like you said, is this a fabrication? Is it something

296
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:41.080
<v Speaker 3>just to scare him? Or is it truly someone trying

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00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.879
<v Speaker 3>to get him help, And maybe they themselves hurt it

298
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:46.000
<v Speaker 3>and are trying not to be that directly tied to

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00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:46.480
<v Speaker 3>the case.

300
00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:50.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if we're making parallels to the Cidey James case,

301
00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.360
<v Speaker 2>I guess another possibility is it could have been someone

302
00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:56.279
<v Speaker 2>trying to gaslight Phil and make him paranoid, like for

303
00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.600
<v Speaker 2>all we know, maybe it was Nancy herself. Maybe she

304
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.000
<v Speaker 2>had no intention of killing him, but I just wanted

305
00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:02.960
<v Speaker 2>to write him these threatening letters to make them all

306
00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.440
<v Speaker 2>paranoid and give him a lot of anxiety or something

307
00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:08.960
<v Speaker 2>for her own personal petty reasons. But yeah, I do

308
00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:11.519
<v Speaker 2>believe that Phil was not the one who wrote the letter,

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00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.120
<v Speaker 2>But I do think that whoever did write it was

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00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:17.600
<v Speaker 2>not telling the whole story and maybe was either trying

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00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.240
<v Speaker 2>to scare him or something, or was trying to give

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00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:23.559
<v Speaker 2>details about the so called murder plot without revealing too

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00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:25.960
<v Speaker 2>much information to give away their own identity.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you read Phil's psychological autopsy report, it details

315
00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:34.240
<v Speaker 1>a number of incidents in which he exhibited strange behavior

316
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:36.279
<v Speaker 1>in the year and a half following the receipt of

317
00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:39.639
<v Speaker 1>that letter. The incidents could be the result of the

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00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:42.440
<v Speaker 1>threat on Phil's life having a negative impact on his

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00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:46.440
<v Speaker 1>mental health, or alternatively, he was already suffering from serious

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00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.559
<v Speaker 1>mental health issues beforehand and that's what caused him to

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00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:53.120
<v Speaker 1>fabricate the letter. In June of nineteen ninety nine, only

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00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:56.840
<v Speaker 1>one month after the letter arrived, Phil reported another strange

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00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:59.320
<v Speaker 1>incident in which he was working in the library at

324
00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.799
<v Speaker 1>the University of Texas at San Antonio and went to

325
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.440
<v Speaker 1>use the washroom, but when he returned to the table

326
00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.920
<v Speaker 1>that he discovered that his laptop had been stolen. While

327
00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:12.359
<v Speaker 1>the story goes that sometime later that month, Phil's laptop

328
00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.240
<v Speaker 1>was returned as he suddenly discovered it on the hood

329
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.319
<v Speaker 1>of his car, alongside a note which stated that if

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00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:22.160
<v Speaker 1>he reported anything to the police, others would die. Phil

331
00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.920
<v Speaker 1>also claimed that the hard drive of his laptop had

332
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.200
<v Speaker 1>been white clean. At the time, Phil was a student

333
00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:31.759
<v Speaker 1>at the Residency in Aerospace Medicine and was working on

334
00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.960
<v Speaker 1>his thesis for a master's degree in public health. He

335
00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:37.799
<v Speaker 1>told the program director that his only copy of his

336
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:40.359
<v Speaker 1>thesis had been on the laptop and was erased when

337
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:43.359
<v Speaker 1>the hard drive was white clean. In spite of this,

338
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:47.039
<v Speaker 1>Phil eventually did complete his thesis and earned his master's degree.

339
00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:50.839
<v Speaker 1>But another unusual incident took place in October two thousand

340
00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:54.400
<v Speaker 1>when he took the Aerospace Medicine Board exam and scored

341
00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:57.880
<v Speaker 1>a zero. Since the exam was all multiple choice questions,

342
00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.319
<v Speaker 1>the statistical odds of Phil Geht seeing every single answer

343
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:05.119
<v Speaker 1>incorrectly seem astronomical. So it appeared that Phil made a

344
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:09.559
<v Speaker 1>calculated choice to intentionally get every question wrong for unknown reasons.

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00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.720
<v Speaker 3>Oh my goodness. Okay, so there's no way that they

346
00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:14.160
<v Speaker 3>could have been graded incorrectly.

347
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.279
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Like, they just said that Phil's a

348
00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:21.039
<v Speaker 2>smart guy, he should know the answers of these questions.

349
00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:23.039
<v Speaker 2>So they just found it very odd that he managed

350
00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:25.480
<v Speaker 2>to get every question wrong, so it almost seemed like

351
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.880
<v Speaker 2>it was some sort of act of self sabotage.

352
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:31.119
<v Speaker 3>That's really bizarre. I could see something like that happening,

353
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:33.400
<v Speaker 3>but it almost seems like they ran the wrong key,

354
00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:35.559
<v Speaker 3>you know, like he had form A and they ran

355
00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:39.559
<v Speaker 3>form E as the answer key and he missed all

356
00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:43.759
<v Speaker 3>those questions. That would be incredibly bizarre. You have someone

357
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:48.839
<v Speaker 3>who is seeking out new licenses and new expertise. He remember,

358
00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.039
<v Speaker 3>he's had a whole career of this, and he's adding

359
00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:54.079
<v Speaker 3>these kind of degrees to his repertoire. Why would he

360
00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.680
<v Speaker 3>be doing that if he wanted to sabotage himself. Just

361
00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:00.839
<v Speaker 3>stay stable at what you're doing and don't pursue things.

362
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:04.160
<v Speaker 1>I think that could speak to some mental health issues

363
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:08.119
<v Speaker 1>that could have been there that precipitated all of these

364
00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:12.359
<v Speaker 1>strange events that led to his death. And personally, I

365
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.920
<v Speaker 1>can't discount the possibility. I just think it's possible that

366
00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:19.279
<v Speaker 1>he may have written that letter himself given these behaviors.

367
00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:21.720
<v Speaker 2>It's true when you kind of see his other behavior

368
00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:24.519
<v Speaker 2>during the time period, like it all seems very bizarre,

369
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:26.839
<v Speaker 2>like the whole thing about the laptop being stolen and

370
00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.559
<v Speaker 2>then returned with the hard drive white clean really does

371
00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:32.599
<v Speaker 2>not ring true. So and when you see the timing

372
00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:36.200
<v Speaker 2>of that compared to when he received the letter, it

373
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.559
<v Speaker 2>does sound like maybe he was just staging a lot

374
00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:42.559
<v Speaker 2>of stuff for reasons known only hit him. And if

375
00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:45.799
<v Speaker 2>that wasn't enough. In July of two thousand, Phil found

376
00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.000
<v Speaker 2>himself being detained by police after an odd incident on

377
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.079
<v Speaker 2>a flight from White Plains, New York, to Chicago, as

378
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.079
<v Speaker 2>he supposedly got out of his seat while the seat

379
00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:56.640
<v Speaker 2>belt light was on and slapped a flight attendant on

380
00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:58.759
<v Speaker 2>the back when she asked him to sit back down.

381
00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:02.720
<v Speaker 2>Later claimed that he simply lost his balance because of

382
00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:05.559
<v Speaker 2>some turbulence and brushed the flight attendant with his arm,

383
00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:08.880
<v Speaker 2>so it was not an intentional slap. After a month's

384
00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:12.400
<v Speaker 2>long investigation, Phil was never formally charged with any crime,

385
00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:15.519
<v Speaker 2>but during this time period he declined orders from the

386
00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:18.359
<v Speaker 2>Air Force to command a squadron. He said that he

387
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:21.039
<v Speaker 2>wanted to legally clear his name before he accepted a

388
00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.720
<v Speaker 2>command position, as he did not want to embarrass the

389
00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.240
<v Speaker 2>Air Force if he wound up facing any illegal trouble.

390
00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:29.359
<v Speaker 2>All of these strange events took place while Phil was

391
00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.559
<v Speaker 2>battling depression and anxiety, which seemed to be brought on

392
00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:35.160
<v Speaker 2>by his paranoia that his ex wife was planning to

393
00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:38.240
<v Speaker 2>kill him. In fact, the incident from the airplane and

394
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Phil flunking the exam almost came across as if they

395
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:45.519
<v Speaker 2>were deliberate acts of self sabotage for his career. There

396
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.319
<v Speaker 2>was definitely a lot of skepticism over Phil's claims that

397
00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:51.000
<v Speaker 2>someone stole his laptop and returned it to him with

398
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:54.039
<v Speaker 2>a threatening note and had the hard drive completely white clean.

399
00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Even though he did report the initial theft of campus security,

400
00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:02.039
<v Speaker 2>he never informed them about the lapps return with the note.

401
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:04.759
<v Speaker 2>In fact, he never even told Tracy his laptop was

402
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.279
<v Speaker 2>stolen to begin with, though this may have been because

403
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.200
<v Speaker 2>he didn't want her to worry. Even if you believe

404
00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:14.160
<v Speaker 2>that Nancy and Donald Timpson recupable in Phil's death, I'm

405
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.079
<v Speaker 2>not sure they would go to the trouble of traveling

406
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.880
<v Speaker 2>to Texas just to steal and erase his laptop. For

407
00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:21.680
<v Speaker 2>all we know, the whole thing could have been an

408
00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.759
<v Speaker 2>attempt at self sabotage on Phil's part in order to

409
00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:28.119
<v Speaker 2>fabricate a cover story for how his master's thesis was

410
00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:33.400
<v Speaker 2>quote unquote lost the psychological autopsy report mentions these examples

411
00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:36.279
<v Speaker 2>of strange behavior in order to plant the seeds that

412
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:38.640
<v Speaker 2>Phil was not in a sound state of mind and

413
00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.759
<v Speaker 2>would have been capable of mutilating himself before staging in

414
00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.799
<v Speaker 2>elaborate suicide. But it's worth reiterating that the incidents took

415
00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.880
<v Speaker 2>place in nineteen ninety nine in two thousand and since

416
00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:51.519
<v Speaker 2>Phil died in two thousand and three, I'm not sure

417
00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:54.000
<v Speaker 2>how much bearing they have on what ultimately happened.

418
00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:56.480
<v Speaker 3>Well, when you look at this too, when you talk

419
00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:59.440
<v Speaker 3>about the thesis being lost, if he was struggling in school,

420
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.119
<v Speaker 3>which would be surprising for intellectual purposes, but maybe not

421
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.799
<v Speaker 3>if he was struggling with mental health purposes. If he

422
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.799
<v Speaker 3>was struggling to get that thesis completed and had deadlines

423
00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:12.000
<v Speaker 3>with his advisor and was supposed to be having these

424
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.000
<v Speaker 3>benchmarks met and he wasn't able to meet them. If

425
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:17.440
<v Speaker 3>your laptop gets stolen and the only copy of your

426
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:21.440
<v Speaker 3>thesis is gone, then you by yourself some time and

427
00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:25.319
<v Speaker 3>an excuse to have sympathy from your advisor. You know

428
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:28.319
<v Speaker 3>this maybe extension of deadlines and things like that. So

429
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:31.359
<v Speaker 3>that is a possibility for why your quote you know

430
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:35.880
<v Speaker 3>thesis would be stolen, so that is possible. I wonder

431
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.519
<v Speaker 3>if you look at that four year gap again, just

432
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.240
<v Speaker 3>like if Nancy was gonna kill him, and you have

433
00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:44.160
<v Speaker 3>this four year gap, that actually kind of makes sense

434
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:48.079
<v Speaker 3>because the authorities were or she was notified that he

435
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.119
<v Speaker 3>was scared of her. But when you look at him

436
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:58.440
<v Speaker 3>struggling four years earlier and then then he completes suicide

437
00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:01.960
<v Speaker 3>four years later, it's hard to link those events. Someone

438
00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:04.640
<v Speaker 3>can have an episode four years earlier and that doesn't

439
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:06.519
<v Speaker 3>mean that four years later they're going to be in

440
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:08.759
<v Speaker 3>this kind of crazy state. I think it would be

441
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:12.480
<v Speaker 3>hard to use those as evidence of suicidality.

442
00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:15.880
<v Speaker 1>Four years later, he might be better at masking the

443
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:20.359
<v Speaker 1>behavior or managing his behavior in a way that others

444
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:25.240
<v Speaker 1>aren't concerned. I'm not saying that he absolutely did this

445
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:28.279
<v Speaker 1>to himself at all, but I think that there is

446
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:33.680
<v Speaker 1>a pretty decent possibility just given these past behaviors. They're

447
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:35.920
<v Speaker 1>really really odd. And it's not the fact that he

448
00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:39.119
<v Speaker 1>lied to his professors that I think is strange. It's

449
00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:42.599
<v Speaker 1>the type of lie that he told, with the threatening

450
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.000
<v Speaker 1>note and the paranoia and it being you know, returned

451
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.240
<v Speaker 1>after the hard drive was wiped, Like, I just think,

452
00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:52.880
<v Speaker 1>why would you even mention that it was returned in

453
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:56.359
<v Speaker 1>any capacity? Why would you just say that it was lost.

454
00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.519
<v Speaker 1>It's just adding those strange details to me seems a

455
00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:03.440
<v Speaker 1>little bit concerning. And then when we couple all of

456
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:07.240
<v Speaker 1>these events together, it does start to paint a picture.

457
00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:10.279
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, the last event was in two thousand. He

458
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:12.359
<v Speaker 1>did die in two thousand and three, so there is

459
00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:15.400
<v Speaker 1>a three year gap. But I think given his advanced

460
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:19.359
<v Speaker 1>education that he has attained at this point and the

461
00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:23.039
<v Speaker 1>level which he's operating, he may just be better at

462
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.839
<v Speaker 1>modulating his emotions and being able to manage his behaviors

463
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:28.680
<v Speaker 1>in a way that isn't concerning for others.

464
00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.240
<v Speaker 2>That would make sense, That would make sense. I mean,

465
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:35.880
<v Speaker 2>we don't really have too many reports of strange behavior

466
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:38.119
<v Speaker 2>with him in two thousand and one two thousand and two,

467
00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:40.880
<v Speaker 2>But who knows, Maybe he was doing such a good

468
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.240
<v Speaker 2>job at modulating himself that they didn't even notice anything concerning,

469
00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:46.279
<v Speaker 2>so that when he finally ended his own life in

470
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:48.720
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and three, it just came as a complete shock.

471
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.000
<v Speaker 3>Do you think that Nancy would be in a position

472
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:55.880
<v Speaker 3>because she loves him and that's his wife. Would she

473
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.640
<v Speaker 3>be in a position to just not see those behaviors

474
00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:01.759
<v Speaker 3>because she's with him the most, So it seems like

475
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:03.920
<v Speaker 3>she would pick up on some of these just like

476
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:07.279
<v Speaker 3>he's not himself. He's really struggling. I mean, yes, you

477
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:10.000
<v Speaker 3>can mask things, but at some point the mask seems

478
00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:14.000
<v Speaker 3>to fall off, And I'm wondering, is she just unaware

479
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.000
<v Speaker 3>or do you think he didn't express that to her?

480
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.839
<v Speaker 3>If he's really struggling to that level. I feel like

481
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:22.400
<v Speaker 3>she'd start to say, like, gosh, he's you know, makes

482
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:25.200
<v Speaker 3>claims about me, he accuses me of things that didn't happen.

483
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.519
<v Speaker 3>He you know, uh has up security at our house,

484
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.599
<v Speaker 3>and it was kind of didn't make any logical sense.

485
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:33.880
<v Speaker 3>I just feel like she would have seen some of that.

486
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:37.359
<v Speaker 1>So at the time he was killed, Phil had been

487
00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.279
<v Speaker 1>taking an antidepressant he was prescribed called then the faccine,

488
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:43.960
<v Speaker 1>which is sold under the brand name effects Her, but

489
00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:47.000
<v Speaker 1>the toxicology screening turned up no traces of it in

490
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.960
<v Speaker 1>his bloodstream, which seemed to indicate that he may have

491
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:52.640
<v Speaker 1>stopped taking it at least five to seven days prior

492
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:56.839
<v Speaker 1>to his death. Since effects Her does have withdrawal side effects,

493
00:25:56.839 --> 00:25:59.960
<v Speaker 1>if you will proptly stop using it. There's been speculation

494
00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:03.039
<v Speaker 1>that going off the medication may have affected Phil's mental

495
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.559
<v Speaker 1>state and caused him to behave erratically, though getting to

496
00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:09.480
<v Speaker 1>the point where he mutilated his own body before crashing

497
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:13.839
<v Speaker 1>his car would definitely be an extreme reaction. The autopsy

498
00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:16.519
<v Speaker 1>also revealed the presence of zero point four to nine

499
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:21.119
<v Speaker 1>milligrams per leader of diephenhydramine in Phil's system, which no

500
00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:24.640
<v Speaker 1>one has ever been able to explain. Diphenhydramine is an

501
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:28.839
<v Speaker 1>antihistamine used to relieve symptoms and allergies, and is marketed

502
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:32.319
<v Speaker 1>under the brand name Benaedrel, but according to Tracy, Phil

503
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:34.960
<v Speaker 1>did not have any allergies and she could not recall

504
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:38.920
<v Speaker 1>ever having seen him take Benaedrel. Another strange detail of

505
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.960
<v Speaker 1>the autopsy report is the presence of the white fiber

506
00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:46.119
<v Speaker 1>material beneath Phil's underwear, which was consistent with material found

507
00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:49.039
<v Speaker 1>in a diaper. One month before his death, Phil was

508
00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:52.480
<v Speaker 1>evaluated at a urology clinic at Wilford Hall Medical Center

509
00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:56.119
<v Speaker 1>for incontinence, and, according to Tracy, since he had a

510
00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.319
<v Speaker 1>recent history of prostate enlargement with frequent urination, Phil would

511
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.079
<v Speaker 1>sometimes cut up pieces of diaper to line his underwear.

512
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:06.279
<v Speaker 1>It's possible that the presence of the diaper material had

513
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:08.960
<v Speaker 1>no relevance to the case at all. But since there

514
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:12.880
<v Speaker 1>are just so many odd elements associated with the accident scene,

515
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:16.480
<v Speaker 1>I see the detail often get mentioned in online discussions

516
00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:17.200
<v Speaker 1>about the case.

517
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:21.119
<v Speaker 3>That makes me sad. I wonder, when you're looking at

518
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:25.519
<v Speaker 3>his you know, at the scene, did they find any

519
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:27.599
<v Speaker 3>remnants of of you know, pieces of diaper if that

520
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:30.640
<v Speaker 3>was a normal behavior for him. He's struggling with incontinence,

521
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:33.960
<v Speaker 3>and that's something to be absolutely humiliating at work to

522
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.039
<v Speaker 3>have an accident, you know, I wouldn't be surprising if

523
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:39.599
<v Speaker 3>he either wore an adult diaper or he had pieces

524
00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:43.319
<v Speaker 3>of like almost like a pad lining his underwear. Yes,

525
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:47.039
<v Speaker 3>his autopsy found pieces of it. But at the scene,

526
00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:51.200
<v Speaker 3>where there any pieces of clothing, our items that were

527
00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:53.920
<v Speaker 3>recovered that would indicate that diaper was present.

528
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:56.799
<v Speaker 2>I don't think so. No, they didn't find a full diaper,

529
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.359
<v Speaker 2>just kind of small pieces of material in his underwear.

530
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:02.440
<v Speaker 2>And I haven't read anything about him keeping diapers at

531
00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:04.559
<v Speaker 2>his home. If he did, I don't think Tracy has

532
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.960
<v Speaker 2>ever said anything about it. So it's not one of

533
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:09.519
<v Speaker 2>those details that they put really out front and talk

534
00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:11.759
<v Speaker 2>about a lot. But people have noticed it in the

535
00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:15.240
<v Speaker 2>autopsy report and they wonder, like what relevance this might have.

536
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think if people are looking at it through

537
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:23.079
<v Speaker 1>like the sadomasochistic sex angle, and then they add the

538
00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:26.920
<v Speaker 1>diaper element to it, people could potentially think that it

539
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:29.279
<v Speaker 1>has to do with, you know, the fetish of dressing

540
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:32.400
<v Speaker 1>up like a baby or something like that, and somebody's

541
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:36.680
<v Speaker 1>having some alternative sex encounter. But I think given the

542
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:40.400
<v Speaker 1>fact that we know that he's struggling with urinarian continence

543
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:42.519
<v Speaker 1>and he's known to cut up pieces of a diaper,

544
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:44.920
<v Speaker 1>that that element can be eliminated.

545
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:46.960
<v Speaker 2>I think so, yeah, I don't think it has anything

546
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:48.319
<v Speaker 2>to do with any sex games.

547
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:49.720
<v Speaker 3>Of course.

548
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:51.720
<v Speaker 2>The biggest point which is brought up to support the

549
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:54.960
<v Speaker 2>idea that Phil's wounds were self inflicted was the presence

550
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:58.119
<v Speaker 2>of lytocade in his system. Has doctor Demeyo believed that

551
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:00.599
<v Speaker 2>he injected himself with it in order to all the pain.

552
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Since he worked at a medical center, Phil likely would

553
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:06.240
<v Speaker 2>have had access to lydakane, But the issue is that

554
00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:09.000
<v Speaker 2>there were no actual injection marks found in his body,

555
00:29:09.319 --> 00:29:12.000
<v Speaker 2>which is why doctor Weck prescribed to the theory that

556
00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:15.640
<v Speaker 2>Phil recently implied e MLA cream to himself to combat

557
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:19.000
<v Speaker 2>the itchiness from shaving his chest hair. If his chest

558
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:21.960
<v Speaker 2>was sliced open, remnants to the lyocane from the cream

559
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:25.240
<v Speaker 2>could have seeped into his bloodstream. It's been reported that

560
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:27.759
<v Speaker 2>a package of small gauge needles was found in the

561
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:31.119
<v Speaker 2>car's glove compartment, though the package was unopened and there

562
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:34.079
<v Speaker 2>was no record of any hypodermic syringes at the scene.

563
00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:37.839
<v Speaker 2>But theoretically, Phil could have used a small gauge needle

564
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:41.160
<v Speaker 2>to inject lytocan into his system through his chest before

565
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.039
<v Speaker 2>he cut himself, and then removed skin from the exact

566
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:48.839
<v Speaker 2>same area, completely obscuring the injection marks. Demayo believed that

567
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.440
<v Speaker 2>if someone had been torturing Phil and wanted to inflict

568
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:54.200
<v Speaker 2>the maximum amount of pain, it would make no sense

569
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.400
<v Speaker 2>for the perpetrator to inject lytocane into his body, but

570
00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:01.240
<v Speaker 2>that might not be entirely true. In his book From

571
00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:05.000
<v Speaker 2>Scene the Courtroom, Examining the Mysteries, Doctor Weck devotes a

572
00:30:05.079 --> 00:30:07.279
<v Speaker 2>chapter to this case and makes mention of a man

573
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:11.880
<v Speaker 2>named Enrique Kihi Camarina, an American intelligence officer for the

574
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:16.240
<v Speaker 2>Drug Enforcement Administration. In February of nineteen eighty five, came

575
00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:19.799
<v Speaker 2>Morena was kidnapped in Mexico by drug traffickers who proceeded

576
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:22.720
<v Speaker 2>to torture and interrogate him for thirty hours before he

577
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:26.319
<v Speaker 2>was murdered. While this was going on, came Moraina was

578
00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:29.400
<v Speaker 2>injected with lighto kane because it would stabilize his heart

579
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.720
<v Speaker 2>rate and keep him alert and awake while he was

580
00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:35.400
<v Speaker 2>being tortured. So, for all we know, maybe some sadistic

581
00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:38.039
<v Speaker 2>kidnapper attempted to do the same thing to Fill in

582
00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:41.079
<v Speaker 2>order to prolong his torture, but did not anticipate that

583
00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:43.000
<v Speaker 2>he would attempt to escape.

584
00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:46.599
<v Speaker 3>There's that. There's also this idea, the idea of the

585
00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:51.400
<v Speaker 3>cream being exposed into his body and him having that

586
00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:55.200
<v Speaker 3>lighted king kind of transfer from his skin into the bloodstream.

587
00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:57.839
<v Speaker 3>I think it's a possibility. But remember he was itching

588
00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:01.039
<v Speaker 3>and you talk about the benadrux being present. Yes, Tracy

589
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:03.680
<v Speaker 3>doesn't remember him ever taking benadryl, but if he's itching

590
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:05.720
<v Speaker 3>and he's using a cream to try to stop the itch,

591
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:09.480
<v Speaker 3>that's what benadryla is for. Oftentimes, if you know, my

592
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:11.480
<v Speaker 3>girls break out in a high or there's a rash

593
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:14.160
<v Speaker 3>or anything like that. It's like, hey, take a benindre

594
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:16.039
<v Speaker 3>and let's see if you're you know, the histamines can

595
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:18.480
<v Speaker 3>kind of cease in your body and you can stop itching.

596
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:21.960
<v Speaker 3>So the benadryl is not is not that difficult to explain.

597
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:25.960
<v Speaker 3>The lytocane if it's not from the cream, would he

598
00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:29.920
<v Speaker 3>have injected himself? I just don't see that. Like you

599
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:33.319
<v Speaker 3>said earlier, there were the hesitation marks supposedly noted around

600
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:36.319
<v Speaker 3>the chest injury, but then not around the nipples. And

601
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:41.000
<v Speaker 3>if he didn't have extreme levels of lytocane in his system,

602
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:43.599
<v Speaker 3>I wouldn't have really numbed him to the point that

603
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:47.319
<v Speaker 3>he could have just really just mutilated his body. I

604
00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:49.960
<v Speaker 3>don't think so. The rate wasn't that high, was it.

605
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:53.720
<v Speaker 2>Not? Really? No, That's what they said, is that the

606
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:56.119
<v Speaker 2>amount that was in his system really wouldn't have dulled

607
00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:58.839
<v Speaker 2>the pain that much. And of course it doesn't sound

608
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:01.200
<v Speaker 2>like the rainy injection mark near his nipples where he

609
00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:04.079
<v Speaker 2>would get the maximum amount of pain. So I do

610
00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:07.039
<v Speaker 2>agree that doctor Wex's theory is possible, and that it

611
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:09.960
<v Speaker 2>might just be some from the EMLA cream that seeped

612
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:10.759
<v Speaker 2>into his wounds.

613
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:13.640
<v Speaker 3>That seems more possible to me than anything else, just

614
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:16.079
<v Speaker 3>because now, if it was a really crazy high level

615
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:18.880
<v Speaker 3>of lytocane, then that does make sense, either that a

616
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.400
<v Speaker 3>perpetrator injected him or he injected himself. But to me,

617
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:24.640
<v Speaker 3>if I'm going to say I need to dull the pain,

618
00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:27.119
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to literally mutilate my body, I'm going to

619
00:32:27.160 --> 00:32:29.200
<v Speaker 3>put a lot more medication in my own body, and

620
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:31.160
<v Speaker 3>I would know how much I needed to put as

621
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:35.039
<v Speaker 3>a medical professional. But he didn't. That's not that's not

622
00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:36.519
<v Speaker 3>what happened, and that's not what showed up in the

623
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:37.880
<v Speaker 3>autopsy report.

624
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:43.039
<v Speaker 1>I guess if somebody's trying to make it look like

625
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:46.680
<v Speaker 1>there's a possibility that like something like doctor Wex's theory happened,

626
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:50.119
<v Speaker 1>and they're trying to administer the least amount of lydacane

627
00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:54.640
<v Speaker 1>so as to make it look as though it were suicide,

628
00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:57.920
<v Speaker 1>like that could be possible too. But I agree if

629
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.000
<v Speaker 1>I was going to be doing something like that to myself,

630
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.920
<v Speaker 1>I would be pumping myself full of light. It came

631
00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:05.279
<v Speaker 1>because I wouldn't want to feel anything. So it seems

632
00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:09.359
<v Speaker 1>odd to just have a small amount. One of the

633
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:11.720
<v Speaker 1>biggest points which has been used in favor of the

634
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:15.519
<v Speaker 1>stage suicide theory is that when Phil was driving erradically

635
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:18.559
<v Speaker 1>on the interstate, he passed by all the exits which

636
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:20.480
<v Speaker 1>would have taken him back to his home and born.

637
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.880
<v Speaker 1>He also reportedly drove by a police car that was

638
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:26.400
<v Speaker 1>pulled over by the side of the road, and never

639
00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:29.559
<v Speaker 1>made any attempt to stop and seek help, even though

640
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:32.519
<v Speaker 1>he was supposedly fleeing for his life. But I think

641
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:34.759
<v Speaker 1>it's a bit unfair to judge actions of a man

642
00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:37.839
<v Speaker 1>who may have been abducted and tortured and just made

643
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:40.559
<v Speaker 1>an escape from his captors, as he would have been

644
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:43.440
<v Speaker 1>in tremendous pain at this point and likely not in

645
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:46.519
<v Speaker 1>the most lucid or rational state of mind. It's worth

646
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:49.920
<v Speaker 1>noting that two motorists followed behind Shoe down an interstate

647
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.960
<v Speaker 1>from the time he nearly crashed into the medium until

648
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.759
<v Speaker 1>he fatally crashed into the trees, and for all we know,

649
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:58.640
<v Speaker 1>Shoe could have assumed that they were his captors trying

650
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.319
<v Speaker 1>to chase him down, which is why he didn't stop.

651
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:04.279
<v Speaker 1>Doctor de Mayo brought up the fact that Shoe's cell

652
00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:07.079
<v Speaker 1>phone was found in his car and he never attempted

653
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:09.239
<v Speaker 1>to use it. To phone for help, but we also

654
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:12.280
<v Speaker 1>had the account from Shoe's neighbor, who claimed that traces

655
00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:14.159
<v Speaker 1>of blood could be found on the inside of the

656
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:17.559
<v Speaker 1>flip phone after they retrieved it from the scene. Remember

657
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.280
<v Speaker 1>this was still two thousand and three, the era before

658
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:23.519
<v Speaker 1>wireless hands free devices, so driving at a speed of

659
00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:26.880
<v Speaker 1>between sixty to sixty five miles per hour will trying

660
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:29.079
<v Speaker 1>to make a call on a flip phone would not

661
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:32.280
<v Speaker 1>have been the easiest thing to do, especially if you

662
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:35.760
<v Speaker 1>have numerous wounds on your body and are experiencing great pain.

663
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:39.159
<v Speaker 1>It's possible that she briefly opened his phone and was

664
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:41.840
<v Speaker 1>planning to make a call, which would explain how the

665
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.519
<v Speaker 1>blood gone on the inside, but he was just too

666
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.920
<v Speaker 1>panicked and frenzy to dial a number. In addition, the

667
00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:50.079
<v Speaker 1>area of which he was driving was known to have

668
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.719
<v Speaker 1>patchy cell phone service, so any calls he attempted might

669
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:56.280
<v Speaker 1>not have even gone through and they wouldn't have shown

670
00:34:56.360 --> 00:34:59.159
<v Speaker 1>up on cell records. For all we know, Shoe's top

671
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:01.760
<v Speaker 1>priority at this point point was to escape and get

672
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.360
<v Speaker 1>as far away from his captors as possible before he

673
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:07.719
<v Speaker 1>sought help, But then he passed out and lost consciousness,

674
00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:10.960
<v Speaker 1>which is why his car swerved off the freeway and crash.

675
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:14.159
<v Speaker 3>If he truly had escape, that would be exactly what

676
00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:16.320
<v Speaker 3>I would think could happened. That he'd be in the

677
00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:19.039
<v Speaker 3>state of shock, he'd be coming in and out of consciousness,

678
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:21.199
<v Speaker 3>and his whole goal is get as far away from

679
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:24.519
<v Speaker 3>them as possible. So while if you're sitting there thinking, well,

680
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:26.199
<v Speaker 3>the rational thing to do would be pull over and

681
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:29.960
<v Speaker 3>get help for him. It might just get distance between

682
00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:32.719
<v Speaker 3>he and his captors or he and his abusers. And

683
00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:35.159
<v Speaker 3>he could think, if I pull off at these exits

684
00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:38.519
<v Speaker 3>near me, they're going to find me, because you know,

685
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:42.039
<v Speaker 3>obviously i'd pull off right here. So he's trying to

686
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:46.239
<v Speaker 3>just continue to drive away from the scene and create

687
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:48.360
<v Speaker 3>that kind of safety between he and his captor. But

688
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:51.000
<v Speaker 3>like you said, if he's bleeding and he has these

689
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:53.679
<v Speaker 3>injuries and he's in pain, and he's scared and he's

690
00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:56.320
<v Speaker 3>in shock, at some point, I would think he would

691
00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:59.159
<v Speaker 3>lose consciousness and then that's when the car would go

692
00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:02.280
<v Speaker 3>off the road. Even driving erratically could have been a

693
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:04.360
<v Speaker 3>sign of that in and out of consciousness where he's

694
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:07.599
<v Speaker 3>you know, his vision's going and he's feeling lightheaded and

695
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.280
<v Speaker 3>you know, blackness is coming into his eyes and he

696
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:12.400
<v Speaker 3>just can't focus on the road. So what looks like

697
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:14.639
<v Speaker 3>erratic behavior is him, you know, trying to come in

698
00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:16.599
<v Speaker 3>and out of consciousness to stay on the road.

699
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:19.800
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a pretty good theory, and I just

700
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:23.159
<v Speaker 1>think the amount of panic and how outside of yourself

701
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:26.119
<v Speaker 1>you would feel trying to escape a situation if he

702
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.360
<v Speaker 1>was indeed being tortured by an outside party. The fact

703
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:32.119
<v Speaker 1>that he didn't stop by a police officer, or that

704
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:33.960
<v Speaker 1>he wouldn't have called on a flip phone, where it

705
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:36.599
<v Speaker 1>would have been very difficult, given the fact that it's

706
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:38.440
<v Speaker 1>not so easy just to key in numbers like it

707
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:41.840
<v Speaker 1>is today, I can't put too much weight behind the

708
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:44.880
<v Speaker 1>fact that he didn't behave in a way that people

709
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:47.800
<v Speaker 1>would think would be typical, because what is typical in

710
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:49.880
<v Speaker 1>a situation like that? I think you want to put

711
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:53.320
<v Speaker 1>as much distance between yourself and those who've harmed you

712
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:57.280
<v Speaker 1>and inflicted all of this terror and trauma and like

713
00:36:57.400 --> 00:36:59.119
<v Speaker 1>physical injury on your body.

714
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:02.519
<v Speaker 2>The key to figure out what actually happened to Colonel

715
00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:04.440
<v Speaker 2>Shoe is to account for the two and a half

716
00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:07.159
<v Speaker 2>hour window between when he left his residence and when

717
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:09.760
<v Speaker 2>he fatally crashed his car, as we just have no

718
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.199
<v Speaker 2>idea where he could have been during this time period.

719
00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:15.199
<v Speaker 2>If Shue did this to himself, here's how all the

720
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:18.159
<v Speaker 2>events would have to unfold. At some point on his

721
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.079
<v Speaker 2>right to work, he pulls into a remote area where

722
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:23.400
<v Speaker 2>he proceeds to wrap pieces of duct tape around his

723
00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:26.800
<v Speaker 2>wrists and boots. He presumably has to do this while

724
00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:30.119
<v Speaker 2>wearing gloves to avoid leaving finger prints on the tape.

725
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:32.960
<v Speaker 2>He then injects himself with Lyda cane before slashing a

726
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:36.320
<v Speaker 2>large gash in his chest, slicing out both of his nipples,

727
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:39.119
<v Speaker 2>and cutting off the distal joint from his left pinky finger.

728
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:42.800
<v Speaker 2>There's been some dispute about whether any cutting instrument shoe

729
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:45.239
<v Speaker 2>could have used to inflict these wounds was inside his

730
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:49.039
<v Speaker 2>vehicle at the accident scene. According to one police report,

731
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.320
<v Speaker 2>two small pocket knives were found, one of which apparently

732
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:55.400
<v Speaker 2>had blood on it, matching shoes DNA, but these knives

733
00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:57.519
<v Speaker 2>are not shown in any of the crime scene photos.

734
00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:01.639
<v Speaker 2>The photos did show a straight race inside the glove compartment,

735
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:04.320
<v Speaker 2>as well as a Swiss army style knife, though the

736
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:06.599
<v Speaker 2>knife's blade did not appear to be sharp enough to

737
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:10.039
<v Speaker 2>have created the incisions on Shoe's body. The straight razors

738
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:12.719
<v Speaker 2>seemed to have a bloody discoloration on the edge, but

739
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:15.440
<v Speaker 2>forensic testing would later show that it was nothing more

740
00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:19.360
<v Speaker 2>than rust. If Shoe's wounds were self inflicted, he would

741
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:22.159
<v Speaker 2>have had to drive back to Interstate ten and continue

742
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:24.760
<v Speaker 2>westbound at a high rate of speed for several minutes

743
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:27.880
<v Speaker 2>while in tremendous pain before he crashed into some trees

744
00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:31.440
<v Speaker 2>and was killed. We have no idea where exactly this

745
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:34.519
<v Speaker 2>self mutilation took place, but who may have needed to

746
00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:37.840
<v Speaker 2>leave behind his severed nipples, his severed pinky finger, the

747
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:41.039
<v Speaker 2>cutting instrument he used to inflict these wounds, the original

748
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:43.480
<v Speaker 2>roll of duct tape, and the gloves he wore wrapped

749
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:45.960
<v Speaker 2>the tape around himself, as well as his wallet and

750
00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:49.119
<v Speaker 2>his dog tags. I mean, given that Chow's desk was

751
00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:52.480
<v Speaker 2>not treated as a homicide investigation, I'm sure the authorities

752
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:54.840
<v Speaker 2>didn't perform in extensive search of the area to find

753
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:58.360
<v Speaker 2>these missive to find these missing items and extremities, but

754
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:00.960
<v Speaker 2>they have still never turned up into twenty years.

755
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:03.679
<v Speaker 3>You would think that at least his walleted dog tags

756
00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:05.440
<v Speaker 3>are something that could have been found. So if you

757
00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:07.920
<v Speaker 3>were walking around and you found a wallet or you

758
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:10.920
<v Speaker 3>found dog tags at some point. I feel like those

759
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.679
<v Speaker 3>would get turned in, right that they have identifications on

760
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:17.519
<v Speaker 3>them that people would be like, oh, that's odd, what

761
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:20.559
<v Speaker 3>are those doing out here? But I mean, obviously something

762
00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:23.800
<v Speaker 3>like nipples and finger digit and things like that. I

763
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:27.199
<v Speaker 3>don't think those would keep their original appearance very long,

764
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:29.039
<v Speaker 3>and I don't think you'd be able to identify them

765
00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:32.760
<v Speaker 3>after they had any kind of weather to them whatsoever.

766
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:36.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, big, that's a good point about the dog tags.

767
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:38.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if someone finds a wallet, they may decide

768
00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:40.119
<v Speaker 2>to keep it, but the dog tags are such a

769
00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:44.280
<v Speaker 2>distinct item. And also, Colonel Shoe's death made the news

770
00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:46.880
<v Speaker 2>and it was featured on true crime programs like forty

771
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:49.440
<v Speaker 2>eight Hours, So you think if someone found thems, they

772
00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:51.880
<v Speaker 2>might put two and two together and say, hey, don't

773
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:54.599
<v Speaker 2>these belong to the guy who died in that car crash.

774
00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:56.719
<v Speaker 2>So the fact that they have not been found anywhere

775
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:59.760
<v Speaker 2>makes me wonder like if someone took them and that

776
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:01.480
<v Speaker 2>Sho didn't take them off himself.

777
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:06.000
<v Speaker 1>On the surface, that scenario that Robin just presented does

778
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:09.119
<v Speaker 1>not sound believable, but the issue is that none of

779
00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:13.880
<v Speaker 1>the scenarios involving abduction, torture, and murder seemed particularly believable either.

780
00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:18.440
<v Speaker 1>The biggest potential suspect has always been Nancy and Donald Timson.

781
00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:21.320
<v Speaker 1>But if their motive for having Phil killed was to

782
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:24.320
<v Speaker 1>collect on his insurance policies, why would they go to

783
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:27.440
<v Speaker 1>the trouble of torturing him first? I mean, I guess

784
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:30.760
<v Speaker 1>it's possible that Nancy was just a very sadistic person

785
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:33.639
<v Speaker 1>who wanted to inflict the maximum amount of pain on

786
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:37.239
<v Speaker 1>her ex husband, But how exactly was her plan supposed

787
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:40.639
<v Speaker 1>to work the Theoretically, if Nancy did abduct Phil and

788
00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:43.719
<v Speaker 1>sliced his chest and cut off his nipples, she received

789
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:46.440
<v Speaker 1>a major break when Phil managed to escape and fatally

790
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:49.360
<v Speaker 1>crash his own car. Technically, this meant that she was

791
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:52.599
<v Speaker 1>no longer directly responsible for his death, and she received

792
00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:55.239
<v Speaker 1>another stroke of good fortune when the authorities believed that

793
00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:58.360
<v Speaker 1>Phil staged an elaborate suicide. So if Phil had not

794
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:01.159
<v Speaker 1>attempted to escape and Nancy murdered him and left his

795
00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:04.639
<v Speaker 1>mutilated body somewhere, there definitely would have been a full

796
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:07.920
<v Speaker 1>fledged homicide investigation, and it would not have been as

797
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:11.199
<v Speaker 1>easy for Nancy to collect on the policies since insurance

798
00:41:11.239 --> 00:41:13.960
<v Speaker 1>companies are often reluctant to pay out to a murder

799
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:17.960
<v Speaker 1>victim's beneficiary unless they've been cleared as a suspect. And

800
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:20.880
<v Speaker 1>I know that suspicion has been directed towards Nancy because

801
00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:23.639
<v Speaker 1>she pleaded the Fifth Amendment on every single question she

802
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.400
<v Speaker 1>was asked during her deposition for Tracy's civil lawsuit and

803
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.599
<v Speaker 1>never officially denied on the record that she was responsible

804
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:33.960
<v Speaker 1>for Phil's death. But that shouldn't necessarily be taken as

805
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:36.840
<v Speaker 1>an indicator of guilt, as she was likely doing this

806
00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:40.239
<v Speaker 1>on the advice of her attorney. Remember, you can't just

807
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:43.280
<v Speaker 1>be selective about what questions you want to answer, because

808
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:45.400
<v Speaker 1>if you plead the fifth on one question, you have

809
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:47.960
<v Speaker 1>to plead the fifth on all of them. Even if

810
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:51.239
<v Speaker 1>Nancy had no actual involvement in her ex husband's death,

811
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:54.400
<v Speaker 1>she may have feared that just answering one question might

812
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:57.199
<v Speaker 1>open up the floodgates and force her to talk about

813
00:41:57.239 --> 00:41:59.719
<v Speaker 1>some stuff that she didn't want to discuss under oath.

814
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:02.519
<v Speaker 1>I think that one of the most frustrating aspects of

815
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:05.800
<v Speaker 1>this case is it details about the alleged alibis for

816
00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:09.639
<v Speaker 1>Nancy and Donald, and there are incredibly vague as all

817
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:12.280
<v Speaker 1>we know is they were supposedly at work in Florida

818
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:14.679
<v Speaker 1>on the day that Phil was killed. I have no

819
00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:18.400
<v Speaker 1>idea how extensively this was verified, but you'd think that

820
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:21.480
<v Speaker 1>traveling from Florida to Texas and back would leave some

821
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:24.599
<v Speaker 1>sort of paper trail. I guess it's possible that Nancy

822
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:27.159
<v Speaker 1>could have hired someone to abduct and murder Phil while

823
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:30.960
<v Speaker 1>she remained in Florida to establish an alibi. But again,

824
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:34.119
<v Speaker 1>it does seem counterproductive to hire an outside party to

825
00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:38.400
<v Speaker 1>torture your ex husband if your primary motive is insurance money.

826
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:42.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I find this really unlikely. I think she pled

827
00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:45.239
<v Speaker 3>the fifth because what does she gain from talking. There's

828
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:48.199
<v Speaker 3>you know, you have nothing to do with it. Yes,

829
00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:50.119
<v Speaker 3>you would think, well, if you're innocent, you want to

830
00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:52.039
<v Speaker 3>have your voice cleared and things like that, have your

831
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:55.760
<v Speaker 3>name cleared. But for me, we've been divorced for years,

832
00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:59.559
<v Speaker 3>and he's in her mind crazy like he keeps accusing

833
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:02.440
<v Speaker 3>me of trying to kill him. Oh my gosh, it's ridiculous.

834
00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:05.639
<v Speaker 3>She is over it, she wants her money and to

835
00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:08.559
<v Speaker 3>move on, and she is being told by her attorney

836
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:10.920
<v Speaker 3>just keep your mouth shut. There's zero that they can

837
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.559
<v Speaker 3>have on you because you're innocent, So just plead the

838
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:18.639
<v Speaker 3>fifth and let's just get through this deposition and move on. So, yes,

839
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:21.280
<v Speaker 3>you would think, Okay, this man died. You'd think his

840
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:23.320
<v Speaker 3>ex wife would want to help, and if she's innocent,

841
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:26.719
<v Speaker 3>why wouldn't she, But there's no benefit for her to do,

842
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:30.400
<v Speaker 3>so they're at odds. They're strange. She hasn't had anything

843
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:32.960
<v Speaker 3>to do with him as far as we know, in years.

844
00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:36.519
<v Speaker 3>She is getting calls from him where he's saying, listen,

845
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:38.519
<v Speaker 3>quit harassing me. I know you're trying to kill me.

846
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:42.199
<v Speaker 3>So for her, assuming that she doesn't have anything to

847
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:45.360
<v Speaker 3>do with it, he seems off his rocker to her,

848
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:48.199
<v Speaker 3>and it's almost abusive to her and stressful for her.

849
00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:52.159
<v Speaker 3>And so at the deposition, what benefit does she have

850
00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:54.480
<v Speaker 3>to say anything other than I plead the fifth.

851
00:43:55.239 --> 00:43:58.239
<v Speaker 1>If you were going to hire a third party to

852
00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:01.280
<v Speaker 1>kill him, you'd think that you would want them to

853
00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:03.719
<v Speaker 1>make it look like an accident. Do you guys think

854
00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:08.280
<v Speaker 1>that there's a possibility that perhaps he had some stalker

855
00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:12.000
<v Speaker 1>that really just laid back and maybe they had a

856
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:14.880
<v Speaker 1>really stressful life event. Maybe they were responsible for initially

857
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:18.360
<v Speaker 1>writing that letter, and they had some sort of animosity

858
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:21.880
<v Speaker 1>towards him, some kind of obsession, and then maybe their

859
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.840
<v Speaker 1>life was going okay, and then they had a stressful

860
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:29.519
<v Speaker 1>life event which triggered them, and then they acted and

861
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:34.760
<v Speaker 1>chose to torture Phil, and that led to the events

862
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:36.559
<v Speaker 1>that ended his life.

863
00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:38.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah, I mean, when I think about it,

864
00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:41.639
<v Speaker 2>when if Nancy was not responsible for what happened, it

865
00:44:41.639 --> 00:44:44.559
<v Speaker 2>would make more sense that an alternate suspect could be

866
00:44:44.599 --> 00:44:47.559
<v Speaker 2>some stalker who had an intimate knowledge of Phil's life,

867
00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:50.719
<v Speaker 2>because on that particular day, he left a lot earlier

868
00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:53.000
<v Speaker 2>than usual in order to go to work. And how

869
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:55.960
<v Speaker 2>would an outside party know that unless they were watching

870
00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:58.239
<v Speaker 2>him or stalking him. I mean, a lot of the

871
00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:00.679
<v Speaker 2>odds that Phil would just cross pass was someone on

872
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:02.840
<v Speaker 2>the highway on his way to work who would abduct

873
00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:05.400
<v Speaker 2>him and murder him. So yeah, if you're looking at

874
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.119
<v Speaker 2>alternate theories which don't involve his ex wife, you would

875
00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:10.880
<v Speaker 2>think it would be someone who had a personal obsession

876
00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:13.199
<v Speaker 2>with Phil and knew a lot about his life. But

877
00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:16.079
<v Speaker 2>I've never heard of anyone from Phil's personal life who

878
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:19.280
<v Speaker 2>fits that profile. And he never mentioned anything about being

879
00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:21.039
<v Speaker 2>stalked by a particular person.

880
00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:24.159
<v Speaker 1>I would be interested if there was anybody who had

881
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:27.280
<v Speaker 1>acted towards Tracy in a way that showed that they

882
00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:30.920
<v Speaker 1>were obsessed with her or interested in her, and they

883
00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:35.719
<v Speaker 1>saw Phil as maybe an obstacle for them somehow cultivating

884
00:45:35.719 --> 00:45:39.559
<v Speaker 1>a relationship with her, and there was some type of

885
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:42.159
<v Speaker 1>delusion present. I mean, you might not even know what

886
00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:45.960
<v Speaker 1>stalkers can be invisible, So I don't think that we

887
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:48.519
<v Speaker 1>can eliminate the possibility that it was either somebody who

888
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:51.679
<v Speaker 1>was obsessed with Tracy or somebody that was obsessed with Phil.

889
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's an interesting theory too, But I've never heard

890
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:58.400
<v Speaker 2>Tracy mention anyone who acted creepy towards her after she

891
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:01.039
<v Speaker 2>lost her husband, or like tried to get together with her.

892
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:03.320
<v Speaker 2>So but who knows. Maybe it's just as Stocker who

893
00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:05.360
<v Speaker 2>thought this has gotten so out of control. I'm going

894
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:07.400
<v Speaker 2>to keep a low profile and stay away from her.

895
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:10.960
<v Speaker 2>Of course. The third possibility, which was once brought up

896
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:13.920
<v Speaker 2>by Nancy's attorney, is that Phil's death was not actually

897
00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:16.960
<v Speaker 2>a homicide or a suicide, but a failed attempt to

898
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:20.119
<v Speaker 2>stage an abduction and possibly frame his ex wife for

899
00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:24.079
<v Speaker 2>harming him. And while Phil's plan involved intentionally crashing his car.

900
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:27.280
<v Speaker 2>He never actually thought he would die. The first time

901
00:46:27.320 --> 00:46:30.960
<v Speaker 2>I witnesses saw Phil's Mercury Tracer driving radically, it was

902
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:34.159
<v Speaker 2>traveling in the Interstate Center medium for several hundred yards

903
00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:37.840
<v Speaker 2>and negotiated between two light poles before it struck an object,

904
00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:41.119
<v Speaker 2>causing the vehicle to go airborne. This could be interpreted

905
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:44.199
<v Speaker 2>as philm making an attempt to intentionally stage an accident,

906
00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:46.679
<v Speaker 2>but it didn't go as planned since his car wound

907
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:49.760
<v Speaker 2>up flying through the air instead. He then decided to

908
00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:52.159
<v Speaker 2>travel down the interstate for a couple more miles and

909
00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:54.840
<v Speaker 2>veer off the road and crash into some trees, but

910
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:58.960
<v Speaker 2>the impact wound up killing him. One potential argument against

911
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:01.679
<v Speaker 2>Phil's death being a super is that he spent years

912
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:05.280
<v Speaker 2>obsessively attempting to cancel the policies Nancy had on him,

913
00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:08.280
<v Speaker 2>but the insurance companies refused to do so, so by

914
00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:11.639
<v Speaker 2>killing himself, Phil would essentially be guaranteeing that his ex

915
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:15.440
<v Speaker 2>wife got exactly what she wanted. But if Phil attempted

916
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:18.400
<v Speaker 2>to stage a phony abduction and mutilated himself to make

917
00:47:18.440 --> 00:47:21.079
<v Speaker 2>it look like he was tortured, then perhaps he thought

918
00:47:21.079 --> 00:47:23.880
<v Speaker 2>he could finally make people believe that Nancy was trying

919
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:26.360
<v Speaker 2>to kill him, after all. If you've been following the

920
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:29.199
<v Speaker 2>news these past several years, you're probably familiar with the

921
00:47:29.239 --> 00:47:32.119
<v Speaker 2>story of Shery Peppini, who told everyone that she was

922
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:35.400
<v Speaker 2>abducted and held captive for three weeks back in twenty

923
00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:39.039
<v Speaker 2>sixteen before she managed to escape. But of course, her

924
00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:42.199
<v Speaker 2>so called captors were never identified, and it was eventually

925
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:45.400
<v Speaker 2>revealed that the entire kidnapping ordeal was a complete hoax.

926
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:49.159
<v Speaker 2>So people are capable of doing things like this, though

927
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:51.920
<v Speaker 2>once again, cutting off both your nipples and a tip

928
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:54.440
<v Speaker 2>of one of your fingers and slicing a six inch

929
00:47:54.519 --> 00:47:57.679
<v Speaker 2>gash on your chest seems like a very extreme step

930
00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:00.199
<v Speaker 2>to take in order to frame your ex wife. It's

931
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:02.480
<v Speaker 2>not a very logical plan, But if Phil suffered a

932
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:05.960
<v Speaker 2>complete mental breakdown, then we shouldn't apply standard logic to

933
00:48:06.039 --> 00:48:06.679
<v Speaker 2>his actions.

934
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:09.480
<v Speaker 3>You also could think about the fact that maybe he

935
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:12.800
<v Speaker 3>didn't want to die, that he thought if I staged

936
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:17.440
<v Speaker 3>this and I'm fleeing from somebody, I can tell the police.

937
00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:21.000
<v Speaker 3>Look at all these actions. There's the letter, there's this

938
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:23.719
<v Speaker 3>note that I got that you know they were out

939
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:25.960
<v Speaker 3>to kill me, and look at what they just did.

940
00:48:26.039 --> 00:48:29.000
<v Speaker 3>They hired someone to abduct me and do these sex

941
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.119
<v Speaker 3>acts on me. She's a sex therapist. Like it all

942
00:48:31.159 --> 00:48:35.079
<v Speaker 3>makes sense. And then he's so injured that he does

943
00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:37.960
<v Speaker 3>start to lose consciousness on his way to try to

944
00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:41.119
<v Speaker 3>get help and stage this and the crash actually takes

945
00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:42.760
<v Speaker 3>his life. That's possible as well.

946
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:45.960
<v Speaker 1>This is the best theory thus far in my opinion.

947
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:49.559
<v Speaker 2>Yay, I guess the only hole in that logic is

948
00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:51.920
<v Speaker 2>if he was trying to frame Nancy, how could he

949
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.840
<v Speaker 2>know what an alibi would be, Because if it could

950
00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:56.920
<v Speaker 2>be conclusively proven that she was in Florida, an entirely

951
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:00.840
<v Speaker 2>different state, then is kidnapping hoax is not going to work.

952
00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:03.079
<v Speaker 2>But like I just said, though, if he's suffering a

953
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:05.800
<v Speaker 2>mental breakdown and not in the most rational state of mind,

954
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:07.559
<v Speaker 2>that he might not have been thinking of those sort

955
00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:07.960
<v Speaker 2>of things.

956
00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:09.880
<v Speaker 3>Well, now Nancy doesn't have to be the one who

957
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:12.360
<v Speaker 3>did it. It could be a third party who she hired,

958
00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:15.440
<v Speaker 3>and he's making that claim and then it's years where

959
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:16.679
<v Speaker 3>she's being investigated.

960
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:19.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah, he could just say a

961
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:21.199
<v Speaker 2>third party did it. And even if she never gets

962
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:24.519
<v Speaker 2>arrested for anything, he might be driving some pleasure over

963
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:26.679
<v Speaker 2>the fact that she's living under a cloud of suspicion

964
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:30.400
<v Speaker 2>and being investigated and potentially removed from his life insurance

965
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:32.679
<v Speaker 2>policy if they think that she's culpable.

966
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:35.840
<v Speaker 1>And he could very easily say if he had, like

967
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:39.320
<v Speaker 1>the alternate theory that Ash described, had survived this, he

968
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:42.400
<v Speaker 1>could say that this person who was hired had said,

969
00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:44.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, this is for Nancy, or like, he could

970
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:48.920
<v Speaker 1>have very easily inserted that, yes, it was very clearly

971
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:51.639
<v Speaker 1>his ex wife who was responsible, even though she had

972
00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:53.400
<v Speaker 1>an alibi. So I think the fact that they were

973
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:59.320
<v Speaker 1>in Florida in that particular scenario becomes a moot point. However,

974
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:01.960
<v Speaker 1>the one wild card in this case is Phil and

975
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:05.480
<v Speaker 1>Nancy's son, Jeffrey, who was removed from his father's will

976
00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:08.960
<v Speaker 1>only five days before his death. I mean, Phil's logic

977
00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:11.679
<v Speaker 1>for that made sense, as Jeffrey had been suffering from

978
00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:15.559
<v Speaker 1>financial problems and there was concern about how responsibly he

979
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:19.559
<v Speaker 1>would handle any inheritance he received. Yet it seems like

980
00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:22.599
<v Speaker 1>one hell of a coincidence that Phil made this decision

981
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.599
<v Speaker 1>so soon before he was killed. On one hand, if

982
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:28.239
<v Speaker 1>Phil was planning a suicide, this may have been his

983
00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:30.679
<v Speaker 1>way of ensuring that Tracy would get full control of

984
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:33.679
<v Speaker 1>his assets and they would not be squandered by his son.

985
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.119
<v Speaker 1>But on the other hand, if Jeffrey had issues with money,

986
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:39.920
<v Speaker 1>I haven't heard anything about him being estranged from his

987
00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:44.239
<v Speaker 1>father or them having a terrible relationship. Remember, even though

988
00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:46.920
<v Speaker 1>there was a good chance that Jeffrey was conceived through

989
00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:50.920
<v Speaker 1>an affair and not actually Phil's biological son, Phil still

990
00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:54.400
<v Speaker 1>raised Jeffrey as he was his very own. In spite

991
00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:57.159
<v Speaker 1>of Jeffrey's financial issues, he did manage to get a

992
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:00.639
<v Speaker 1>job as a pilot for Delta Airlines was proud of

993
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:04.639
<v Speaker 1>his accomplishments. At the very least, I'd expect that Phil

994
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:07.079
<v Speaker 1>would want to ensure Jeffrey was taken care of while

995
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:09.960
<v Speaker 1>he was gone. I guess being removed from his will

996
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:12.360
<v Speaker 1>could have been a potential motive for Jeffrey to have

997
00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:15.480
<v Speaker 1>his father killed, but it's unclear if Jeffrey found out

998
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:18.800
<v Speaker 1>about this until after Phil's death. It's also not clear

999
00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:21.400
<v Speaker 1>to me what kind of relationship Jeffrey had with his

1000
00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:24.159
<v Speaker 1>mother at that point, since he lived in another state.

1001
00:51:24.800 --> 00:51:26.840
<v Speaker 1>So for all we know, Jeffrey may have had an

1002
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:30.239
<v Speaker 1>airtight alibi clearing him of any involvement in what happened,

1003
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:33.400
<v Speaker 1>But he never gave interviews or was formally questioned about

1004
00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:37.000
<v Speaker 1>the case under oath. Since Jeffrey passed away nine years ago,

1005
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:39.440
<v Speaker 1>we'd never got to hear his side of the story

1006
00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:41.559
<v Speaker 1>or his thoughts about what happened to his father.

1007
00:51:42.440 --> 00:51:44.400
<v Speaker 3>I do wonder if he would have known that he

1008
00:51:44.440 --> 00:51:47.079
<v Speaker 3>had been removed from the will it was five days earlier.

1009
00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:49.400
<v Speaker 3>I mean, what did Phil do call him up and

1010
00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:51.280
<v Speaker 3>be like, hey, by the way, removed you from my will.

1011
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:54.880
<v Speaker 3>That's kind of a difficult conversation to have, so I

1012
00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:57.000
<v Speaker 3>don't know that someone had even been aware of it

1013
00:51:57.039 --> 00:51:57.559
<v Speaker 3>at the time.

1014
00:51:58.039 --> 00:52:00.760
<v Speaker 1>I agree. I don't think that, like, if you're planning

1015
00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:02.519
<v Speaker 1>to do that, unless there was some event that was

1016
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:05.039
<v Speaker 1>a catalyst for you doing it, if it was just

1017
00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:07.840
<v Speaker 1>a pattern of behaviors that led him to go, Okay,

1018
00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:10.000
<v Speaker 1>I've really got to make a change here. I think

1019
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:12.159
<v Speaker 1>you'd wait until you were face to face with that

1020
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:15.239
<v Speaker 1>person and have that type of a conversation. I mean,

1021
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:18.159
<v Speaker 1>back then, there wasn't even zoom or anything so or

1022
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:21.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, FaceTime, so he couldn't look at him face

1023
00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:23.519
<v Speaker 1>to face. And I don't think you just call somebody

1024
00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:25.519
<v Speaker 1>up or text them and are like, hey, you're out

1025
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:26.920
<v Speaker 1>of the will.

1026
00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:29.519
<v Speaker 2>I suppose the most damning piece of evidence to suggest

1027
00:52:29.559 --> 00:52:32.239
<v Speaker 2>the accident might have been staged is the alleged statement

1028
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:35.920
<v Speaker 2>film made to a psychiatrist, Lieutenant Colonel Dion, six months

1029
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:38.880
<v Speaker 2>prior to his death, where he mentioned having a dissociative

1030
00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:41.679
<v Speaker 2>episode in which he imagined his cargoing out of control

1031
00:52:41.719 --> 00:52:44.159
<v Speaker 2>on his way to work, well great violence was done

1032
00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:47.920
<v Speaker 2>to him. The psychological autopsy report treats this as a

1033
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:50.960
<v Speaker 2>piece of foreshadowing in which phil practically announced what he

1034
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:53.000
<v Speaker 2>was planning to do, but there's been a lot of

1035
00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:55.760
<v Speaker 2>dispute about whether or not he actually made this statement.

1036
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.360
<v Speaker 2>When the case was featured on forty eight Hours, Deon

1037
00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:02.079
<v Speaker 2>declined to be interviewed on camera, but the show claimed

1038
00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:06.440
<v Speaker 2>that he shared this story about the dissociative episode with them. However,

1039
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:10.199
<v Speaker 2>according to Cyril Wex's book From Scene to Courtroom, Examining

1040
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:12.960
<v Speaker 2>the Mysteries, Giannas said that if he was ever asked

1041
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:16.039
<v Speaker 2>about Shoe's alleged statement under oath, he would deny that

1042
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:18.840
<v Speaker 2>it ever took place. So this is definitely one of

1043
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:21.760
<v Speaker 2>those cases where you're going to find conflicting information about

1044
00:53:21.800 --> 00:53:24.880
<v Speaker 2>key details. From different sources, and you pretty much have

1045
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:27.519
<v Speaker 2>to make up your own mind about which side you believe.

1046
00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:30.039
<v Speaker 2>And I have to be honest, I've always had a

1047
00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:33.320
<v Speaker 2>difficult time figuring out what actually happened here, as no

1048
00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:36.760
<v Speaker 2>theory makes one hundred percent complete sense. If you read

1049
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:40.519
<v Speaker 2>Colonel Shoe's psychological autopsy report, it does make a fairly

1050
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:43.239
<v Speaker 2>convincing case for his death being a suicide, and you

1051
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:45.880
<v Speaker 2>might come away believing that he staged the entire accident.

1052
00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:48.320
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, it fails to come up

1053
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:51.880
<v Speaker 2>with logical explanations for some of the major discrepancies involving

1054
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:54.440
<v Speaker 2>Shoe's death and requires you to make a lot of

1055
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:56.119
<v Speaker 2>assumptions about his mental state.

1056
00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:59.199
<v Speaker 3>And I do give a lot of credence to what

1057
00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:03.559
<v Speaker 3>Tracy said, she recognized before all this happened to her,

1058
00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:08.440
<v Speaker 3>he seemed like he was doing okay. And you say, well, yeah,

1059
00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:10.519
<v Speaker 3>you never know, But I mean, this is I get

1060
00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:12.719
<v Speaker 3>in the car this morning, I cut my nipples off

1061
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:16.320
<v Speaker 3>and my finger off, and I'm stabbing myself in the

1062
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:22.039
<v Speaker 3>chest and crashing my car. It just seems really, I

1063
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:25.360
<v Speaker 3>don't know, chaotic as as a form of suicide. Like

1064
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:28.360
<v Speaker 3>you said, we do have Peppini, who did something very

1065
00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:31.320
<v Speaker 3>similar where she beat herself and had her friend hurt

1066
00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:33.639
<v Speaker 3>her and stuff like that so that she could fake

1067
00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:37.840
<v Speaker 3>her own kidnapping and get attention and love from her husband.

1068
00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:41.760
<v Speaker 3>But here the only thing I could think is he

1069
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:44.679
<v Speaker 3>needs to frame her. He's tried every other thing to

1070
00:54:44.719 --> 00:54:47.760
<v Speaker 3>get his ex wife off of his life insurance policies.

1071
00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:50.920
<v Speaker 3>He has this paranoia that she's out to hurt him,

1072
00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:54.639
<v Speaker 3>and so if it is self induced, I would see

1073
00:54:54.679 --> 00:54:58.599
<v Speaker 3>him trying to frame her to be under investigation. Remember

1074
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:01.400
<v Speaker 3>they had petitioned the insurance company to remove them as

1075
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:04.599
<v Speaker 3>a risk to him, that they couldn't be beneficiaries, and

1076
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:09.199
<v Speaker 3>they were denied. And so if she's under investigation for

1077
00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:12.880
<v Speaker 3>a murder investigation, it's possible that the insurance company would

1078
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:15.920
<v Speaker 3>drop her at that point. So if it's self induced,

1079
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:18.679
<v Speaker 3>I would go that direction that he's trying to fake

1080
00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:22.159
<v Speaker 3>an accident where then he can talk to the police

1081
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.639
<v Speaker 3>and at the insurance company to remove her. But I

1082
00:55:24.679 --> 00:55:26.840
<v Speaker 3>couldn't see him wanting to end his life with everything

1083
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:29.559
<v Speaker 3>he had going on. He was supposed to be moving

1084
00:55:29.599 --> 00:55:31.760
<v Speaker 3>with his wife, they had a dream house picked out,

1085
00:55:32.079 --> 00:55:34.800
<v Speaker 3>he was continuing his education. It just doesn't seem like

1086
00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:37.679
<v Speaker 3>that would be where he was at in that moment

1087
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:38.199
<v Speaker 3>of his life.

1088
00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:41.320
<v Speaker 1>This makes the most sense to me of like everything

1089
00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:43.840
<v Speaker 1>that we've discussed so far, because I don't think that

1090
00:55:44.199 --> 00:55:47.079
<v Speaker 1>if he did this to himself, the death was intentional

1091
00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:51.920
<v Speaker 1>and just given the behavior that if Dion did say

1092
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:54.960
<v Speaker 1>that he had that dissociated episode in which she said that,

1093
00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:58.119
<v Speaker 1>and that is factually correct, then I think that that

1094
00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:01.599
<v Speaker 1>is some interesting foreshadowing. Whether or not he had this

1095
00:56:01.719 --> 00:56:05.519
<v Speaker 1>episode or he's saying he did. I don't know if

1096
00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:07.800
<v Speaker 1>it was just sort of him putting it out there

1097
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:10.320
<v Speaker 1>that the hay this could happen, or if it was

1098
00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:14.159
<v Speaker 1>like a self fulfilling prophecy. He had this vision and

1099
00:56:14.199 --> 00:56:17.039
<v Speaker 1>then somehow it gave him an idea of a way

1100
00:56:17.079 --> 00:56:19.480
<v Speaker 1>that he could get his ex wife off of the

1101
00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:24.039
<v Speaker 1>insurance policy and just be free of her in that sense,

1102
00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:27.639
<v Speaker 1>if he was really truly worried about his life, I'm

1103
00:56:27.679 --> 00:56:29.960
<v Speaker 1>not sure, but I think you build in a few

1104
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:32.199
<v Speaker 1>holes from you with that ash, and I think that

1105
00:56:32.199 --> 00:56:33.559
<v Speaker 1>that is the best theory.

1106
00:56:34.760 --> 00:56:36.559
<v Speaker 2>The one part that still bothers me, though, is him

1107
00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:40.079
<v Speaker 2>mutilating his nipples, because I could see him like staging

1108
00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:42.880
<v Speaker 2>an abduction and maybe inflicting a few wounds on himself

1109
00:56:42.920 --> 00:56:45.119
<v Speaker 2>to make it look like he was tortured. But like

1110
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:47.679
<v Speaker 2>removing your entire nipples if you're planning to still be

1111
00:56:47.719 --> 00:56:50.639
<v Speaker 2>alive afterwards, really does seem like an extreme reaction.

1112
00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:53.199
<v Speaker 1>You're probably not in a good mental state if you're

1113
00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:55.639
<v Speaker 1>going to remove your own nipples, Like, I don't think

1114
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:58.280
<v Speaker 1>that that would be something that if you were going

1115
00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:01.960
<v Speaker 1>to try to like simulate Toure, that that would be

1116
00:57:02.079 --> 00:57:04.199
<v Speaker 1>the thing that your mind would go to. I'm going

1117
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:06.480
<v Speaker 1>to slice off my own nipples. That's so permanent, like

1118
00:57:06.519 --> 00:57:09.400
<v Speaker 1>to cut yourself and to put gashes in your body

1119
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:13.960
<v Speaker 1>that will heal, that will grow back. But nipples don't regenerate,

1120
00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:17.360
<v Speaker 1>So that is a really extreme thing to decide to do.

1121
00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:19.960
<v Speaker 1>But if he wasn't in a logical frame of mind,

1122
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:24.360
<v Speaker 1>then again we can't apply logic. I suppose it's possible

1123
00:57:24.440 --> 00:57:27.079
<v Speaker 1>that all this drama involving Shoe's ex wife and the

1124
00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:31.199
<v Speaker 1>insurance policies is nothing more than smoke and mirrors, and

1125
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:34.119
<v Speaker 1>he was instead abducted and tortured by an outside party

1126
00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:37.239
<v Speaker 1>who's managed to stay off the radar. Maybe there was

1127
00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:39.880
<v Speaker 1>just some random psychopath who felt the urge to abduct

1128
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:43.159
<v Speaker 1>and torture someone that particular morning and was lying in

1129
00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:46.159
<v Speaker 1>wait for a random victim, and Colonel Shoe became the

1130
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:49.840
<v Speaker 1>unfortunate target. However, shee wound up escaping and was killed

1131
00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:52.280
<v Speaker 1>in a car crash. But because he didn't have any

1132
00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:55.079
<v Speaker 1>known connection to the torturer, no one's been able to

1133
00:57:55.079 --> 00:57:58.000
<v Speaker 1>figure out who that person might be. But regardless of

1134
00:57:58.039 --> 00:58:01.360
<v Speaker 1>whether Shoe's death was a homicide, suicide, or a staged

1135
00:58:01.480 --> 00:58:04.880
<v Speaker 1>accident gone horribly wrong, I think the one thing we

1136
00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:07.119
<v Speaker 1>can all agree on is that he was failed in

1137
00:58:07.159 --> 00:58:10.159
<v Speaker 1>a huge way by all the agencies who were responsible

1138
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:14.079
<v Speaker 1>for investigating his death. I mean, yes, he technically was

1139
00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:16.599
<v Speaker 1>killed by the car wreck, but if you arrive at

1140
00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:19.519
<v Speaker 1>an accident scene and discover that the victim's nipples are

1141
00:58:19.559 --> 00:58:23.079
<v Speaker 1>missing and cannot be found anywhere nearby, then you have

1142
00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:25.239
<v Speaker 1>to assume that there's a lot more to the story.

1143
00:58:25.960 --> 00:58:28.480
<v Speaker 1>And I know that Judge Palmer's ruling that Colonel Schue's

1144
00:58:28.480 --> 00:58:31.559
<v Speaker 1>death was a homicide had no official legal weight, but

1145
00:58:31.639 --> 00:58:35.519
<v Speaker 1>I still find it incredibly frustrating that all the investigative

1146
00:58:35.559 --> 00:58:38.800
<v Speaker 1>agencies have refused to budge and take a fresh look

1147
00:58:38.840 --> 00:58:42.000
<v Speaker 1>at the case. At the very least, Choo's official cause

1148
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:45.599
<v Speaker 1>of death should be reclassified as undetermined instead of suicide

1149
00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:48.159
<v Speaker 1>until more conclusive answers can be found.

1150
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:51.000
<v Speaker 3>And why they didn't approach it that way from the

1151
00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:54.840
<v Speaker 3>get go is what's so frustrating. I get aftermath there's

1152
00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:57.440
<v Speaker 3>a lot of politics and things changing that cause a death,

1153
00:58:57.880 --> 00:59:00.960
<v Speaker 3>But when you look at the original investigation, they failed him.

1154
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:03.639
<v Speaker 3>It should have immediately been something they said, this is odd.

1155
00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:06.880
<v Speaker 3>If we assume it's a suicide, that's fine, but I

1156
00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:09.760
<v Speaker 3>would like to gather as much information and as much

1157
00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:14.280
<v Speaker 3>evidence from the scene to confirm that assumption. That is

1158
00:59:14.360 --> 00:59:17.840
<v Speaker 3>a big assumption to make in the moment, especially given

1159
00:59:18.320 --> 00:59:20.159
<v Speaker 3>all of the details that you have in front of you,

1160
00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:23.760
<v Speaker 3>missing nipples, a finger digit missing, a gash in his chest,

1161
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:28.440
<v Speaker 3>the tape around his ankles and feet. So why you

1162
00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:32.280
<v Speaker 3>would assume suicide and before you really were doing a

1163
00:59:32.280 --> 00:59:35.800
<v Speaker 3>deep dive into a psychological background, I don't know. You

1164
00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:38.519
<v Speaker 3>should have approached it as a homicide and gone from there.

1165
00:59:38.559 --> 00:59:40.559
<v Speaker 3>And like you said, why not be willing to take

1166
00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:41.679
<v Speaker 3>a fresh look now.

1167
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:46.400
<v Speaker 2>Lastly, I should acknowledge that Tracy Shue did benefit financially

1168
00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:48.960
<v Speaker 2>from her husband's death, since she received a payout of

1169
00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:52.119
<v Speaker 2>one point eight million dollars from both her husband's military

1170
00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:55.800
<v Speaker 2>death benefits and to other insurance policies. I'm sure there

1171
00:59:55.840 --> 00:59:57.679
<v Speaker 2>are some cynics who might take this as a sign

1172
00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:00.159
<v Speaker 2>that she was involved to what happened to him. But

1173
01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:02.239
<v Speaker 2>if that were the case, why wouldn't she have just

1174
01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:05.800
<v Speaker 2>accepted the suicide ruling and collected the money. Why spend

1175
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:08.079
<v Speaker 2>years dragging the case through the courts and keeping your

1176
01:00:08.119 --> 01:00:11.280
<v Speaker 2>husband's story in the spotlight. So yes, I definitely think

1177
01:00:11.320 --> 01:00:14.119
<v Speaker 2>you can rule out the possibility of Tracy's involvement, as

1178
01:00:14.159 --> 01:00:17.119
<v Speaker 2>it's clear that she only wants justice and conclusive answers

1179
01:00:17.159 --> 01:00:20.280
<v Speaker 2>about what happened. I will admit that in some cases

1180
01:00:20.320 --> 01:00:22.639
<v Speaker 2>which a victim's death was ruled to be a suicide

1181
01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:25.679
<v Speaker 2>and their loved ones disagreed with the conclusion, you got

1182
01:00:25.679 --> 01:00:27.639
<v Speaker 2>the impression that there was a lot of denial at

1183
01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:30.719
<v Speaker 2>work and that pushing a homicide narrative was their coping

1184
01:00:30.719 --> 01:00:34.360
<v Speaker 2>strategy for dealing with the pain and grief. But here

1185
01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:36.880
<v Speaker 2>there are just so many things which don't make sense

1186
01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:40.039
<v Speaker 2>that I can completely understand why the victim's widow would

1187
01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:43.000
<v Speaker 2>continue the fight. So if you happen to have any

1188
01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:46.880
<v Speaker 2>information about the unexplained death of Colonel Philip Schue, please

1189
01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:51.400
<v Speaker 2>contact the appropriate authorities. Jules Ashley, any final thoughts in

1190
01:00:51.400 --> 01:00:52.159
<v Speaker 2>this case.

1191
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:56.039
<v Speaker 3>I'm so perplexed. This is one of those where I'm

1192
01:00:56.079 --> 01:00:58.559
<v Speaker 3>wrapping it up and not feeling really confident in which

1193
01:00:58.599 --> 01:01:03.079
<v Speaker 3>direction I feel this case goes. I'm almost tempted to

1194
01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:06.480
<v Speaker 3>go with my gut that says he staged this as

1195
01:01:06.639 --> 01:01:11.360
<v Speaker 3>a abduction and abuse situation, right torture situation where he

1196
01:01:11.400 --> 01:01:15.519
<v Speaker 3>wanted to live and just have Nancy punished and out

1197
01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:19.119
<v Speaker 3>of his life and further removed from him. But there

1198
01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:23.400
<v Speaker 3>really are questions in every single possible scenario. A straight

1199
01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:27.760
<v Speaker 3>up suicide does not make sense. The straight up homicide,

1200
01:01:27.880 --> 01:01:30.920
<v Speaker 3>we have no information, especially because they didn't investigate that

1201
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:35.119
<v Speaker 3>way and my other plan. Like you said, Robin, there

1202
01:01:35.159 --> 01:01:38.920
<v Speaker 3>aren't one hundred percent, you know, foolproof ways to look

1203
01:01:38.960 --> 01:01:42.159
<v Speaker 3>at that either. So it's one of those cases where

1204
01:01:42.159 --> 01:01:45.360
<v Speaker 3>as the widow, I would be so devastated and so

1205
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:49.440
<v Speaker 3>upset that I felt failed from the get go, and

1206
01:01:49.519 --> 01:01:51.679
<v Speaker 3>that there was an assumption that my husband would take

1207
01:01:51.679 --> 01:01:53.960
<v Speaker 3>his own life given the life we had created together.

1208
01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:56.840
<v Speaker 3>So I feel so much empathy for her, so much

1209
01:01:56.880 --> 01:02:00.599
<v Speaker 3>sadness for her, no matter what happened, And I don't

1210
01:02:00.639 --> 01:02:03.800
<v Speaker 3>think the investigation was fair to fill or his wife.

1211
01:02:04.760 --> 01:02:06.920
<v Speaker 3>And it's one of those cases where it says, you

1212
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:09.840
<v Speaker 3>start assuming it's a homicide and later you can change

1213
01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:12.480
<v Speaker 3>your mind, but you can't go the opposite direction. You

1214
01:02:12.519 --> 01:02:16.119
<v Speaker 3>can't say suicide and then try to undo the lack

1215
01:02:16.159 --> 01:02:19.679
<v Speaker 3>of investigation and make any kind of conclusions later. So

1216
01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:21.960
<v Speaker 3>I'm very frustrated with the way it was even investigated

1217
01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:24.159
<v Speaker 3>to start this case.

1218
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:26.880
<v Speaker 1>Is like you said, ash is just so frustrating. The

1219
01:02:26.960 --> 01:02:30.719
<v Speaker 1>fact that they didn't investigate it as a murder first

1220
01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:34.079
<v Speaker 1>and let the evidence lead where it may is such

1221
01:02:34.119 --> 01:02:38.039
<v Speaker 1>a huge failing to his family. I don't know what

1222
01:02:38.119 --> 01:02:41.639
<v Speaker 1>happened here. I think that there are so many different possibilities.

1223
01:02:42.239 --> 01:02:44.360
<v Speaker 1>Like I said earlier, I think the theory that Ashley

1224
01:02:44.440 --> 01:02:48.280
<v Speaker 1>posited that his intention wasn't to end his own life.

1225
01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:52.599
<v Speaker 1>His intention was just to simulate this torture and to

1226
01:02:52.679 --> 01:02:55.760
<v Speaker 1>have his ex wife, Nancy's insurance policies on his life

1227
01:02:55.800 --> 01:02:58.679
<v Speaker 1>be terminated, because clearly this was a black cloud that

1228
01:02:58.760 --> 01:03:02.039
<v Speaker 1>was hanging over him. I think that it is a

1229
01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:05.519
<v Speaker 1>pretty good probability that that may have been what happened.

1230
01:03:05.559 --> 01:03:09.280
<v Speaker 1>There's still obviously a lot of questions as to where

1231
01:03:09.400 --> 01:03:12.280
<v Speaker 1>he did this. If he did indeed do this to himself,

1232
01:03:12.840 --> 01:03:16.239
<v Speaker 1>where did he decide to take off his own nipples

1233
01:03:16.280 --> 01:03:19.159
<v Speaker 1>and to cut himself like this, Because we know that

1234
01:03:19.239 --> 01:03:22.079
<v Speaker 1>his finger and the nipples weren't found in the vehicle,

1235
01:03:22.159 --> 01:03:25.639
<v Speaker 1>so it was likely done somewhere else and we just

1236
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:29.519
<v Speaker 1>don't have that information. I feel like the investigation being

1237
01:03:29.559 --> 01:03:33.760
<v Speaker 1>so lacking initially, it just leaves us with more questions

1238
01:03:33.800 --> 01:03:37.360
<v Speaker 1>than answers, and my heart really breaks for the family.

1239
01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:41.639
<v Speaker 1>It's just it's really really sad, and I don't believe

1240
01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:45.679
<v Speaker 1>that Nancy and her husband, even though they stood to

1241
01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:50.119
<v Speaker 1>benefit from his death, had anything to do with what happened.

1242
01:03:50.239 --> 01:03:53.199
<v Speaker 1>I think that there's obviously like a possibility, but it

1243
01:03:53.239 --> 01:03:56.079
<v Speaker 1>just doesn't seem like a strong one to me personally

1244
01:03:57.039 --> 01:04:00.159
<v Speaker 1>because of the manner in which it was done. If

1245
01:04:00.199 --> 01:04:02.519
<v Speaker 1>he was killed in a way that looked like it

1246
01:04:02.559 --> 01:04:05.199
<v Speaker 1>was just an accident without all the torture, and then

1247
01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:07.719
<v Speaker 1>I'd be more inclined to believe that they had some

1248
01:04:07.880 --> 01:04:11.880
<v Speaker 1>type of involvement. And as far as Jeffrey goes. We

1249
01:04:11.960 --> 01:04:14.719
<v Speaker 1>don't know that he knew about being taken off the will,

1250
01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:17.519
<v Speaker 1>and I don't believe that he would have just called

1251
01:04:17.559 --> 01:04:19.159
<v Speaker 1>him up. I mean, I don't really know what type

1252
01:04:19.159 --> 01:04:20.800
<v Speaker 1>of guy he is, but it does seem a little

1253
01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:23.280
<v Speaker 1>callous to be like, yeah, you're just off the will,

1254
01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:26.679
<v Speaker 1>like Jeffrey, I'm disinheriting you because you're bad with money.

1255
01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:29.360
<v Speaker 1>It feels like it's a more compassionate thing to have

1256
01:04:29.400 --> 01:04:32.519
<v Speaker 1>a conversation one on one, face to face. And he's

1257
01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:35.239
<v Speaker 1>a psychiatrist and he would have known that. But this

1258
01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:38.440
<v Speaker 1>is just one of the most mysterious cases and strange

1259
01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:39.760
<v Speaker 1>cases that we've ever covered.

1260
01:04:40.880 --> 01:04:43.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I remember watching it on the forty eight Hours

1261
01:04:43.840 --> 01:04:46.800
<v Speaker 2>episode many years ago, and of course my initial impression

1262
01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:48.880
<v Speaker 2>was that there's no way this is a suicide and

1263
01:04:48.920 --> 01:04:51.280
<v Speaker 2>that Colonel Shoe had to be the victim of foul play.

1264
01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:53.920
<v Speaker 2>And I started researching it for the Trail Went Cold

1265
01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:56.039
<v Speaker 2>a couple of years ago, and I read the psychological

1266
01:04:56.079 --> 01:04:58.760
<v Speaker 2>autopsy report and I'm like, Okay, oh, yeah, that's a

1267
01:04:58.800 --> 01:05:01.440
<v Speaker 2>valid point. This is me making a compelling case for

1268
01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:04.519
<v Speaker 2>this being a stage suicide. But then I'm reading that

1269
01:05:04.599 --> 01:05:06.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the information in this report is not

1270
01:05:06.679 --> 01:05:09.559
<v Speaker 2>entirely accurate, and I also look into the fact that

1271
01:05:09.639 --> 01:05:12.840
<v Speaker 2>it can't account for a number of the strange discrepancies

1272
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:15.480
<v Speaker 2>which were not adequately explained. So it left me on

1273
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:18.119
<v Speaker 2>the fence again not really sure what to think. I

1274
01:05:18.159 --> 01:05:20.679
<v Speaker 2>do believe that there is no one theory that makes

1275
01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:23.599
<v Speaker 2>one hundred percent complete sense. The theory we brought up

1276
01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:26.639
<v Speaker 2>here about this not being an intentional suicide but rather

1277
01:05:26.679 --> 01:05:30.119
<v Speaker 2>an attempt by Phil to stage an abduction and a

1278
01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:33.079
<v Speaker 2>torture in order to frame his ex wife, even though

1279
01:05:33.079 --> 01:05:35.880
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't make any logical sense on the surface. If

1280
01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:39.039
<v Speaker 2>he was suffering some sort of mental breakdown, then yes,

1281
01:05:39.199 --> 01:05:41.480
<v Speaker 2>maybe he would have been capable of doing something like

1282
01:05:41.519 --> 01:05:43.840
<v Speaker 2>that and doing something as extreme as cutting off his

1283
01:05:43.880 --> 01:05:46.719
<v Speaker 2>own nipples. But even so, there are some holes in

1284
01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:49.719
<v Speaker 2>that theory, and that's why this case is so mysterious.

1285
01:05:50.199 --> 01:05:52.400
<v Speaker 2>And like we said, I think the authorities did a

1286
01:05:52.440 --> 01:05:55.920
<v Speaker 2>major disservice by automatically ruling this as a suicide and

1287
01:05:56.000 --> 01:06:00.000
<v Speaker 2>not doing a full fledged homicide investigation. And we mentioned

1288
01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:02.880
<v Speaker 2>in our last episode that Tracy did not even find

1289
01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:05.360
<v Speaker 2>out many of the strange details, such as the removal

1290
01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:07.960
<v Speaker 2>of the nipples from law enforcement. She was told that

1291
01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:11.320
<v Speaker 2>by a newspaper reporter, and that's why she decided, hold on,

1292
01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:14.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to cremate my husband like originally thought.

1293
01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:16.639
<v Speaker 2>We're going to give his body a new autopsy and

1294
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:19.519
<v Speaker 2>figure out what's going on here. And that's what convinced

1295
01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:22.239
<v Speaker 2>her that foul play must have taken place. But Yeah,

1296
01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:24.840
<v Speaker 2>even though Nancy on the surface seems like the most

1297
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:28.039
<v Speaker 2>logical suspect, the whole theory about her doing it doesn't

1298
01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:31.239
<v Speaker 2>make much logical sense either that she would travel or

1299
01:06:31.320 --> 01:06:34.480
<v Speaker 2>hire someone to travel to Texas to murder and torture

1300
01:06:34.480 --> 01:06:36.880
<v Speaker 2>a husband for the insurance money. Would it be a

1301
01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:39.119
<v Speaker 2>lot more logical to kind of stage his death to

1302
01:06:39.159 --> 01:06:42.199
<v Speaker 2>look like an accident to avoid all the suspicion. So

1303
01:06:42.280 --> 01:06:45.159
<v Speaker 2>I think that either Phil was murdered by someone who

1304
01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:47.880
<v Speaker 2>we don't even know about it, possibly a stalker who

1305
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:50.480
<v Speaker 2>never popped up in the radar as a suspect, or

1306
01:06:50.840 --> 01:06:53.920
<v Speaker 2>like Ashley said, maybe he decided to stage the accident

1307
01:06:53.960 --> 01:06:56.400
<v Speaker 2>but did not plan on ending his own life and

1308
01:06:56.559 --> 01:07:00.000
<v Speaker 2>as a result, the whole investigation turned into a mess

1309
01:07:00.039 --> 01:07:02.920
<v Speaker 2>and no one could figure out what happened. But regardless,

1310
01:07:03.079 --> 01:07:05.639
<v Speaker 2>this is still remains one of the weirdest mysteries we've

1311
01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:08.239
<v Speaker 2>ever covered, and I do hope we finally get conclusive

1312
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:09.199
<v Speaker 2>answers someday.

1313
01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:11.480
<v Speaker 4>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

1314
01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:12.519
<v Speaker 4>about the Trail Went Cold?

1315
01:07:12.519 --> 01:07:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Patreon?

1316
01:07:13.719 --> 01:07:16.079
<v Speaker 2>Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

1317
01:07:16.159 --> 01:07:19.880
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

1318
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:23.360
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

1319
01:07:23.400 --> 01:07:26.239
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

1320
01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:28.800
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

1321
01:07:28.880 --> 01:07:32.960
<v Speaker 2>tier tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

1322
01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:36.159
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

1323
01:07:36.199 --> 01:07:39.519
<v Speaker 2>The Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

1324
01:07:39.800 --> 01:07:42.320
<v Speaker 2>and if you join our highest tier tier three, the

1325
01:07:42.360 --> 01:07:45.280
<v Speaker 2>ten dollar tier. One of the features we offer is

1326
01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:49.639
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsaved Mysteries,

1327
01:07:49.880 --> 01:07:52.840
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

1328
01:07:52.920 --> 01:07:56.159
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

1329
01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:59.519
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

1330
01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:02.719
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

1331
01:08:02.719 --> 01:08:06.159
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode and incidentally, the very

1332
01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:09.039
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

1333
01:08:09.079 --> 01:08:11.840
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

1334
01:08:11.880 --> 01:08:14.599
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track at which I make more smart

1335
01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:17.640
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

1336
01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:18.439
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

1337
01:08:18.640 --> 01:08:20.159
<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

1338
01:08:20.159 --> 01:08:23.119
<v Speaker 4>about the jeweles and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

1339
01:08:23.159 --> 01:08:26.039
<v Speaker 4>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

1340
01:08:26.039 --> 01:08:29.079
<v Speaker 4>Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so

1341
01:08:29.119 --> 01:08:31.239
<v Speaker 4>they're not very mini, but they're just too short to

1342
01:08:31.239 --> 01:08:34.159
<v Speaker 4>turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

1343
01:08:34.239 --> 01:08:36.399
<v Speaker 4>so we hope you'll check out those patreons.

1344
01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:37.880
<v Speaker 1>We'll link them in the show notes.

1345
01:08:38.399 --> 01:08:40.319
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

1346
01:08:40.439 --> 01:08:42.800
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

1347
01:08:42.840 --> 01:08:45.840
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

1348
01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:48.359
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at The Pathwent Chili at gmail

1349
01:08:48.399 --> 01:08:51.439
<v Speaker 2>dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin.

1350
01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:54.319
<v Speaker 2>So until next time, be sure to bundle up because

1351
01:08:54.359 --> 01:08:57.159
<v Speaker 2>cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

1352
01:08:57.359 --> 01:09:00.800
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy