Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Our Interesting Times. It's my
Speaker 1: pleasure to have Jay Dyer back on the show. Well, Jay,
Speaker 1: how you doing.
Speaker 2: Been great time. Always glad to be on Our Interesting
Speaker 2: Times because our times are interesting.
Speaker 1: Very interesting in the worst kind of a way. And
Speaker 1: of course you are the proprietor of Jays Analysis jaysnalysis
Speaker 1: dot com. You're the author of So Teror Hollywood Sex
Speaker 1: Cults and Symbolism in Film, And I understand you are
Speaker 1: taping a very important series of I guess television shows
Speaker 1: for the Guide Network. Been very busy, so I'm very
Speaker 1: appreciative your time with me tonight. Thank you, And I
Speaker 1: guess you're finishing up later on this week with those seat.
Speaker 2: Thank you for those kind words. Yeah, we've finished eleven
Speaker 2: episodes and we'll finish six seventeen or eighteen by the
Speaker 2: end of this week. And yeah, it's gonna be a
Speaker 2: lot of really really cool stuff movie a movie analysis
Speaker 2: kind of Ciskel and Ebers style show that really doesn't exist.
Speaker 2: I don't think there's another Cisco Ebert style show that
Speaker 2: that does film analysis, you know the way that I
Speaker 2: do it, and it kind of linked up well with
Speaker 2: the style of Jay Weedener the way he does film analysis.
Speaker 2: You know, we have we have a good chemistry, a
Speaker 2: good rapport, so we kind of just go back and
Speaker 2: forth and give our thoughts and and and impressions of
Speaker 2: these seminal films and shows and kind of dissect them,
Speaker 2: you know. And it ties in well with Dave mcgallan's
Speaker 2: work a lot of the stuff that we're going to
Speaker 2: be talking about tonight, and we referenced, you know, Dave
Speaker 2: quite a bit. You know, my work kind of builds
Speaker 2: on that, as well as Michael Hoppins worked too. So
Speaker 2: it's it's gonna be neat. It's it's gonna be I think,
Speaker 2: very high quality. It's not it's not stupid, it's not fluffy.
Speaker 2: It's going to be pretty hardcore. But it all would
Speaker 2: be a lot of satire and comedy and you know,
Speaker 2: joking around. Hopefully too. They may edit out on my
Speaker 2: Maybe they sounded like they were laughing in the control room,
Speaker 2: but I can tell, so maybe maybe they're laughing at
Speaker 2: how bad it was, And I don't know. I hope
Speaker 2: my impersonation, you know, don't get edited out, but they
Speaker 2: may end up on the cutting room floor.
Speaker 1: Sorry, what's the name of that show.
Speaker 2: It'll be called Hollywood Decoded.
Speaker 1: Hollywood you code it, okay, And that's going to air
Speaker 1: on the on the Guide network, and people, I guess
Speaker 1: subscribe that I don't.
Speaker 2: Have to be by subscription. But as I understand, you
Speaker 2: know this is it's anywhere streaming service and it's also
Speaker 2: on some cable and satellite, so if you have Amazon
Speaker 2: Prime and that kind of stuff, you can get it too.
Speaker 1: So oh excellently I do. Okay, so I can watch it.
Speaker 2: It should be on all those Yeah, okay, I'm pretty
Speaker 2: sure that's right. I'm pretty sure Amazon has Gaya, but
Speaker 2: many to check on that. But but yeah, so we've
Speaker 2: got some of the some good stuff lined up for
Speaker 2: season one. We've got David Lynch, and we've got some Kubrick,
Speaker 2: and we've got some Ridley Scott, Blade Runner and the
Speaker 2: Alien franchise and some X Files. Uh so there's a
Speaker 2: there's a good lineup and then a lot more to come,
Speaker 2: you know. If this does well, we'll do another another
Speaker 2: two seasons on top of that.
Speaker 1: So great, And of course a lot of those movies
Speaker 1: I do after watching or listening reading your analysis, listening
Speaker 1: to your analysis, you can go re watch some of
Speaker 1: the movies that Mayson little Strange, particularly David Lynch films,
Speaker 1: and you can really there's your analysis really helps.
Speaker 2: And a lot of people were saying that, they say,
Speaker 2: when they get in the book, they kind of read
Speaker 2: my book and then they watched the movie and then
Speaker 2: read the chapter and watch the movie. So it's you know,
Speaker 2: it ends up being kind of a fun, fun thing,
Speaker 2: and I think the show will be too, because we
Speaker 2: have clips that we're playing too, so it's not just
Speaker 2: sitting you know, me sitting there talking with Jay Weedner.
Speaker 2: It's also you know, important sections of the film and yeah,
Speaker 2: you know the images and the scenes and what's going on.
Speaker 1: So your analysis of Ernest goes the campus particularly enlightening
Speaker 1: there was.
Speaker 2: I wrote that as a joke, and then I had
Speaker 2: people who they didn't think it was a joke and
Speaker 2: they were like, do you really think this is about this?
Speaker 2: And it says satire on there.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's great, and of course, listeners here if you
Speaker 1: want to support Jay regularly, you can support his website
Speaker 1: for five a month, sixty dollars a year. That's the
Speaker 1: regular thing. Support his research. Okay, Well, tonight, you've did
Speaker 1: a an excellent analysis of Dave McGowan's Program to Kill.
Speaker 1: We've talked touched on it before in the past, and
Speaker 1: our previous talks, I think our first conversation we talked
Speaker 1: a lot about that, but just touched on it, and
Speaker 1: you did a almost a two hour analysis of it,
Speaker 1: and of course I wanted to talk about that in
Speaker 1: light of the maybe Michael Hoffman's analysis of the serial
Speaker 1: killer phenomenon, particularly the ritualistic aspect of it and the
Speaker 1: alchemical process that he believes that's involved with it. A
Speaker 1: broader issue of sort of the societal degradation debasement that
Speaker 1: occurred in the nineteen sixties and seventies into the eighties.
Speaker 1: Of course, in the context of the Vietnam War, the
Speaker 1: development of feminism, and all the psychological warfare that the
Speaker 1: American people were being have been subjected to since the
Speaker 1: Second World War. So, hey, how do you want how
Speaker 1: do you go on dive into it?
Speaker 2: Well, I guess I could point out that in my
Speaker 2: own experience, Uh, you know, I didn't grow up during
Speaker 2: that period. I grew up in the eighties, so I
Speaker 2: didn't know much about that era except through my dad.
Speaker 2: My dad was into led Zappelin in the doors, and
Speaker 2: you know, he would always play those albums, and that
Speaker 2: was really the only experience I had of it until I,
Speaker 2: you know, got to be older and started reading and
Speaker 2: getting into history and trying to make sense of what
Speaker 2: had been happening, especially in the United States. And then
Speaker 2: I think in my twenties, about twenty four or five,
Speaker 2: I read Hoffman's book and that was a big piece
Speaker 2: of the puzzle for me. It was a big awakening
Speaker 2: stage for me. I think I've got my society Psychological.
Speaker 2: My copy is dated in two thousand and six. So
Speaker 2: he really opened up, I guess, a new way to
Speaker 2: look at things, and in a broadway. So he's really
Speaker 2: tying in the ideas of Hollywood and mass culture, pop culture,
Speaker 2: with the military industrial complex and with secret societies in
Speaker 2: the occult and you know how the Pentagon used the
Speaker 2: psychological warfare and ritual crimes and how it all kind
Speaker 2: of connects us. So I think he's maybe one of
Speaker 2: the best figures that you could point to that kind
Speaker 2: of laid out a more coherent, unified field theory of conspiracy,
Speaker 2: because you know, I think prior to I mean, maybe
Speaker 2: you can find somebody I don't know, but I mean
Speaker 2: when I think back to conspiracy texts written prior to
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, which is when he published his book,
Speaker 2: you know, you would get books that might deal with
Speaker 2: a certain topic, like you know, there would be books
Speaker 2: on the Templars, and there would be a book on
Speaker 2: the Masons, and very limited subject matter. But I think
Speaker 2: Hoffman's book is a step towards meta analysis, where he's
Speaker 2: really trying to put all these pieces together, and he
Speaker 2: ties in, you know, the theological aspects too, like making
Speaker 2: sense of what happened in the Catholic Church and Vatican
Speaker 2: two and beyond, and it just made a lot more sense,
Speaker 2: I think. And so I was and I was a
Speaker 2: traditional Roman Catholic at the time, attending the Latin Mass
Speaker 2: and so forth. So so Hoffen had a big impact
Speaker 2: on me. And then I realized that he was kind
Speaker 2: of the first person I read that did kind of
Speaker 2: an esotery movie analysis. So he kind of gave me
Speaker 2: the idea, or I got the idea to do that
Speaker 2: style from his analysis of conspiracy theory. He read a
Speaker 2: book or an essay on that a long time ago
Speaker 2: that's kind of famous. So so it's just it's a
Speaker 2: gray all around book introduction. It's usually what I tell
Speaker 2: people who are new to the topic to read as
Speaker 2: an introduction. And I mean, I'm not sure where to
Speaker 2: start with it, just because he talks about so many
Speaker 2: things too. But Dave's book is a great companion to
Speaker 2: that book because they're kind of in the same vein.
Speaker 2: They do overlap at times. Even though the focus of
Speaker 2: Program to Kill is more just on ritual crime, he's
Speaker 2: not really dealing with you know, theology or history per se.
Speaker 2: But one of the things that Dave starts out with
Speaker 2: that really impressed me in his book was that he
Speaker 2: he looks like he read most of the material that's
Speaker 2: published dealing with you know, MK ultra and mind control.
Speaker 2: So you know, there's Jose Delgado's Physical Control of the Mind,
Speaker 2: and there's Donald Bain's Control of Kenny Jones and Walter
Speaker 2: Bowart's book Operation mind Control and John Marxist book and
Speaker 2: I've read a lot of these, but I haven't read
Speaker 2: all of them. And I've read a lot of these two.
Speaker 2: And so you know, Hoppins book kind of kicked me
Speaker 2: off on that eleven or twelve years ago, and then
Speaker 2: I read Jay Stevens's book Storming Heaven, which is also
Speaker 2: kind of along the same path as Weird scenes inside
Speaker 2: the Canyon, but not a little more water down, a
Speaker 2: little more mainstream. And I read that a long time ago,
Speaker 2: and that kind of got me thinking, you know, that
Speaker 2: maybe a lot of what we were told about the
Speaker 2: sixties counter culture revolution was not what was really going on,
Speaker 2: and that maybe that wasn't real. And I had my
Speaker 2: own experiences of going to concerts and you know, being
Speaker 2: around so called hippies and that people of that counterculture mindset,
Speaker 2: because you know, you start noticing as you get older
Speaker 2: that it's really just different costumes and dressings that people
Speaker 2: are wearing who are being counterculture. Right, So it's like
Speaker 2: the counterculture of my period when I was, you know,
Speaker 2: eighteen nineteen, it was Nirvana, it was Pearl Jam, it
Speaker 2: was alternative music, it was you know, that was just
Speaker 2: the next phase of the cultural dressing. And you start
Speaker 2: to realize that a lot of this stuff is not organic.
Speaker 2: It's actually top down. It's it's corporate, it's it's sold, uh,
Speaker 2: and that's it runs contrary to what the whole ethos
Speaker 2: is is that it's supposed to be an organic counter
Speaker 2: culture movement. And then I think, you know, just as
Speaker 2: you get older, you read more and you learn more,
Speaker 2: and you realize that, uh, you know, the people who
Speaker 2: run society are not idiots. They're they're very adept, and
Speaker 2: they're masters of the scientific, scientific process, a scientific technique
Speaker 2: of mass psychology. So I know I would even still
Speaker 2: recommend probably Jim Keats's book Mass Control. It's it's a
Speaker 2: good introduction to this topic, and it fits well with
Speaker 2: Michaels Hoffin's book and Dave McGowan's book. But anyway, just
Speaker 2: to kind of set the stage, you know, I just
Speaker 2: started diving into all these books, and you know, there
Speaker 2: really is a dearth of evidence to suggest that uh
Speaker 2: wait is that the right word. I'm kind of I'm
Speaker 2: kind of tired. Amount of earth is dearth?
Speaker 1: Dearth be a lack of or ending of it.
Speaker 2: There is an excess, excuse me, an abundance, an abundance
Speaker 2: of evident to suggest that that the counterculture movements are essentially,
Speaker 2: you know, engineered, and that's that's the main point here.
Speaker 2: And you said, well, how could that be? Why would
Speaker 2: that be? Well, when you look at what the Pentagon
Speaker 2: was studying, what the military was studying back into the thirties,
Speaker 2: forties and fifties what the advertising agencies were studying, and
Speaker 2: it was mass psychology, mass sociology, uh, and the mind
Speaker 2: of man. And if you could master the mind of man,
Speaker 2: then you could master the mass mind. And so all
Speaker 2: of these studies and all this research that the establishment
Speaker 2: put into mind control and physical control of the mind
Speaker 2: and all this kind of stuff. Uh, it manifested itself
Speaker 2: in all these very bizarre things, like you know, one
Speaker 2: of the in Keltry doctors, doctor Jolli and West, gives
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of LSD to elephants just to see
Speaker 2: what it what it'll do. Uh. And you can go
Speaker 2: on on YouTube and still see a lot of these
Speaker 2: this old archive footage of some of these Stanford research
Speaker 2: experiments too, where they're giving giving LSD to all these
Speaker 2: animals and monkeys and h seeing what it does. And uh,
Speaker 2: well you can watch the spider webs that were created
Speaker 2: by spiders that were given LSD and how they're all
Speaker 2: messed up and their webs don't work, and so that
Speaker 2: I mean, they really perfected. I think the the chemical
Speaker 2: approach to biological warfare is what this amounts and that's
Speaker 2: why it was classed eventually under a biological warfare. So
Speaker 2: so that's what impressed me about Dave's book, and having
Speaker 2: now read a lot of these books that he references,
Speaker 2: I think I have a better, a much better picture
Speaker 2: of how the the studies of multiple personality slash disassociative
Speaker 2: identity disorder was of central import along with hypnotism for
Speaker 2: so many decades. And I think that you could argue
Speaker 2: that this is probably perfected. And of course, you know,
Speaker 2: Colin Ross has a lot of lectures and books that
Speaker 2: deal with the same topics too, so I think there's
Speaker 2: definitely something to this. Now there's a lot of disinformation
Speaker 2: that says that there's no such thing as you know,
Speaker 2: fractured personalities and this kind of stuff, But I mean,
Speaker 2: it makes a lot more sense if this is true. Now.
Speaker 2: I've had my own experiences with LSD when I was seventeen,
Speaker 2: so I know firsthand what happens. I had a bat
Speaker 2: trip the first time I did it, and so I
Speaker 2: understand the potentials and how it can cause multiple or
Speaker 2: fractured personality. Now, I mean, I don't think that I
Speaker 2: have alternate personality or anything like that. But what I'm
Speaker 2: saying is that I know the process of what happens
Speaker 2: in throughout the acid trip, so I can see how
Speaker 2: these kinds of things occur. And if you read John
Speaker 2: Marx's book, he talks about that too. He talks about
Speaker 2: how they had actually studied the trip process and how
Speaker 2: it could cause dissociation. And then you get these popularizers,
Speaker 2: right who go out into the pop culture who sell
Speaker 2: it like Timothy Leary. Now, Timothy Leary attaches all this
Speaker 2: esoteric stuff to it, and this is where you get
Speaker 2: the whole idea of promoting the archaic revival and indigenous
Speaker 2: religious traditions and all this kind of stuff attached to
Speaker 2: LSD and the promotion of hallucinogens. And I don't think
Speaker 2: we need to rehearse the Henry Loose Time.
Speaker 1: We all know that's yeah, yeah, Time nine Life magazine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, You've done plenty of interviews on that. And so
Speaker 2: you know, you start to notice all these things and
Speaker 2: all these these puzzle pieces that just don't make sense
Speaker 2: to be a counterculture revolution, you know. And of course
Speaker 2: that's that's the thesis of weird Scenes inside the Canyon,
Speaker 2: you know. And I think he argues as well in there.
Speaker 2: That's our culture movement to whatever degrees. Maybe the anti
Speaker 2: war movement, you know, was a organic and legitimate was
Speaker 2: eventually taken over and turned into just kind of this
Speaker 2: Dionyssian bas passion type of thing where you know, Jim
Speaker 2: Morrison's up there like having sex with the speaker on
Speaker 2: the stage while he's bombed out of his mind on drugs. Right,
Speaker 2: it just turns into turns it to total total chaos basically.
Speaker 2: And and this chaos and dissociation I think you can
Speaker 2: see it reflected in the artwork that was promoted like
Speaker 2: Jackson Pollock and Andy Warhol, and you know a lot
Speaker 2: of these CIA aided characters, these Frankfurt school type characters,
Speaker 2: and so to boil it all down, I mean, you
Speaker 2: really have. It's what Adorno talked about, you know, from
Speaker 2: the frankfur School, that that if you promote inversion and
Speaker 2: the perversion, you could really destroy the social order. And
Speaker 2: these lackos, of these sickos really believed that you had
Speaker 2: to destroy the social order to fix things. So that's
Speaker 2: that's I think the setting for for the sixties. It
Speaker 2: was a whole bunch of things that was psychological warfare.
Speaker 2: It was a lot of large scale testing of cults
Speaker 2: of alternative lifestyles quote unquote, You've you know, you've done
Speaker 2: talks with with John Adams. I've done interviews with John Adams,
Speaker 2: and he talks a lot about how California was kind
Speaker 2: of set up to be this mecca for the for
Speaker 2: the alternative lifestyle, you know, as well as promoting kind
Speaker 2: of the Silicon Valley military industrial complex, aerospace stuff, you know,
Speaker 2: up towards Sacramento. You know, if you didn't like that,
Speaker 2: you could go down to La or San Francisco or
Speaker 2: hate Ashbury or something, get involved in whatever cult you wanted, right,
Speaker 2: So it's really you just have this cornucopia of test
Speaker 2: tubes I think going on throughout the sixties. And I
Speaker 2: think that LSD was given on a mass scale on purpose.
Speaker 2: I think that was by design absolutely. You know, when
Speaker 2: you look into the history of the drug war, you
Speaker 2: start to realize why that would be very plausible, especially
Speaker 2: given the importation of cocaine and crack for you know,
Speaker 2: the black neighborhoods and stuff like that. We figure out,
Speaker 2: but that's all true. So it just makes more it
Speaker 2: makes a lot more sense that the culture is controlled
Speaker 2: and studied and created much more than it is, you know,
Speaker 2: any kind of organic process. And so that's the setting,
Speaker 2: that's the zeitgeist for both Hoffmann's book and Dave McGowan's book.
Speaker 1: Yes You Have a Program to Kill. And now the
Speaker 1: way it's structured is he introduces the book first with
Speaker 1: organized elite pedophilia, the pediocricy I think, and I think
Speaker 1: the first eighty or ninety pages talks about the Mark
Speaker 1: de trou Fair and these various exposure of pedophilic networks
Speaker 1: and we all just in recent news and just in
Speaker 1: our research, alternative research into the deep state and some
Speaker 1: of the intrigues of the intelligence agencies, the function that
Speaker 1: that serves that child, that human trafficking, particularly with blackmail
Speaker 1: and human compromise.
Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting too is that both of these books,
Speaker 2: Hawfins's book was written in two thousand and one and
Speaker 2: Dave's books written in two thousand and four. And here
Speaker 2: we are. You know, it's twenty seventeen. And I had
Speaker 2: hawfins book a long time ago, and I would give
Speaker 2: this book out. People were calling me crazy. They would
Speaker 2: hand it back to me. I read the first chapter.
Speaker 2: Here take this back, yeah.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that.
Speaker 2: I'm sure Dave's I'm sure Dave's book was received the
Speaker 2: same way. I only read, you know, for Gom to
Speaker 2: Kill fairly recently. But yeah, but the point, my point
Speaker 2: is just that look at how much of this has
Speaker 2: been vindicated, you know, in the last few years. So
Speaker 2: these are prescient books. And for me, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't want to be vindicated on this awful dark stuff,
Speaker 2: but you know, it makes me realize that I'm not
Speaker 2: actually crazy. So all the people who you know called
Speaker 2: me nuts over the last fifteen years or whatever, well.
Speaker 1: I get that. I say, when people call someone calls
Speaker 1: me crazy, I said, no, you're just ignorant. Yeah, then
Speaker 1: they get offenders. Will you just called me nuts, which
Speaker 1: is worse? Yeah, right, you just don't understand what they
Speaker 1: don't understand it.
Speaker 2: I'm not mean, I don't, right, I don't mean to
Speaker 2: be arrogant, but I mean, ninety nine percent of the
Speaker 2: time when when people are operating that way, they've not
Speaker 2: read any of this stuff. No, they don't have any
Speaker 2: working knowledge of this material.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's yeah, it's someone and you're you don't
Speaker 1: have the patience or the election to be tutored on
Speaker 1: this stuff. So I'm not gonna waste my time, you know,
Speaker 1: just do the research, come back in five years, and
Speaker 1: then we'll talk about it. And that's what it takes.
Speaker 1: That's the problem is there's no substitute for for understanding
Speaker 1: these things other than just doing the research, reading the
Speaker 1: material and thinking about it and also holding out that,
Speaker 1: you know, there are some some of these things that
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with saying I don't know, I don't
Speaker 1: know for sure. You know, there's bias against there's a
Speaker 1: bias towards certainty, and some of these things we don't
Speaker 1: have certainty uh with. We have to infer, have to
Speaker 1: you know, uh speculate uh based on on the on
Speaker 1: the information we have, you know, and that's only natural.
Speaker 1: I don't know. What people expect, they get. They create
Speaker 1: a usually high standard. It's selective too, because they'll they'll
Speaker 1: accept that the narratives and other things not any without
Speaker 1: any evidence, or just because they're told something, you know,
Speaker 1: because Walter Kronkake told them something.
Speaker 3: Or they're you know, yes, Brian Williams, there's a brilliant Yeah,
Speaker 3: go ahead, there's a brilliant, brilliant point that Dave makes
Speaker 3: in The Program to Kill at one point where he says, yeah,
Speaker 3: we're supposed to believe that the CIA never really got
Speaker 3: anywhere within k Ultra.
Speaker 2: It didn't really teach them anything about mind control and
Speaker 2: how to brainwash people, and you know, they just kind
Speaker 2: of let this go after the hearings and all this stuff. However,
Speaker 2: we are at the same time supposed to believe, from
Speaker 2: the official sources that all of these cult leaders have
Speaker 2: perfected the process of my control. Right, so it's a
Speaker 2: double Jim Jones, David Press and Jim Jones are masters
Speaker 2: of mind control, but the CIA and Pentagon, they just
Speaker 2: don't have a clue on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, with an unlimited budget technology at their disposal. On Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that was the the subtext or the
Speaker 1: the argument of Charles Manson's conviction. He makes this very
Speaker 1: point is the assumption of my control on the part
Speaker 1: of Charles Manson. Mm hmm, because he apparently, you know,
Speaker 1: the the the the killers uh went out, you know,
Speaker 1: and performed the massacres and they're convicted, but they're they're there.
Speaker 1: We were to understand that they were they were they
Speaker 1: were controlled zombies and the Saint Charles Manson, who according
Speaker 1: the official narrative, was never at any any of the
Speaker 1: scenes was convicted, right, And it makes no sense from
Speaker 1: a legal stuff, yet they did it.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, that's yeah exactly. And you know, I
Speaker 2: just liked the the approach because, you know, Dave's willing
Speaker 2: to he's willing to look at the arguments of the skeptics.
Speaker 2: And one of the problems is that, you know, skeptics
Speaker 2: who said that there's not any substance to disassociate of
Speaker 2: identity disorder or to any of this stuff, is that
Speaker 2: they generally don't take into account all of the abundance
Speaker 2: of for example, material in Dave's book. Right, So you'll
Speaker 2: get these people who try to debunk things, but they
Speaker 2: never deal with, you know, like the totality of the
Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty pages of this book. You know what,
Speaker 2: what what about all this? Right? I mean, it's I mean,
Speaker 2: I can I understand people being skeptical, and certainly not
Speaker 2: every time somebody claims something it's true, but that's not
Speaker 2: a sound argument to debunk the whole idea of you know,
Speaker 2: maybe we don't under understand everything about the psyche. You
Speaker 2: know that I've done a lot of reading and a
Speaker 2: lot of research into that. And you know, I don't
Speaker 2: think that the so called establishment really understands or knows
Speaker 2: what the psyche. I mean, have perfected a lot of
Speaker 2: techniques when it comes to entrainment and psychic driving and
Speaker 2: these different you know, mind control techniques, but that doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that they really know what they're dealing with. Because
Speaker 2: you know, Saint Paul's the who knows the spirit of
Speaker 2: who knows the soul of a man, but the spirit
Speaker 2: which is in him, right, so even our souls and
Speaker 2: our spirits are somewhat mysterious even to us. So I
Speaker 2: don't think the establishment has every everything locked down on
Speaker 2: what man is or what man's soul is, precisely because
Speaker 2: most of these people have completely naturalistic presuppositions, so they
Speaker 2: don't think there is a soul. So you know, this
Speaker 2: is why everything's treated with chemicals and so forth. But anyway,
Speaker 2: you know, he just provides a bunch of arguments for
Speaker 2: you know, people in the establishment, even saying there's more
Speaker 2: going on here. These people aren't faking. You can look
Speaker 2: at experiments through hypnotism. Hypnotism has been study studied for
Speaker 2: eighty years, so you know, obviously they've made some kind
Speaker 2: of progress there. Freud talks about ritual abuse, and then
Speaker 2: you have, you know, the suspicious, obviously suspicious fact of
Speaker 2: the False Memory Syndrome Foundation being founded by these CIA
Speaker 2: people who are bold and things like child drafting and
Speaker 2: child born and stuff.
Speaker 1: That's right, it's a what's his name? What was his name?
Speaker 1: It was morn Orn or something he was or was
Speaker 1: MK ultra scientist.
Speaker 2: A bunch of stuff on that. But yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Think wasn't also Jolly West involved with them too?
Speaker 2: That sounds right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, okay, false Memory Foundation. Now, for a
Speaker 1: point of clarification, Dave mcgown's thesis, uh well in Program
Speaker 1: to Kill and also Dovetails are it's a good follow
Speaker 1: up to him to his or actually preceded it, but
Speaker 1: to his Laura Canyon book, because Laura Cannon. He points
Speaker 1: out that the this dizzy array of the popular some
Speaker 1: of the most popular musical bands of the nineteen sixties
Speaker 1: having connections to military and intelligence, with the theory that
Speaker 1: the music itself was weaponized the purposes of culture creation
Speaker 1: and sort of steering the culture in a certain direction,
Speaker 1: undermining the anti war movement. The manipulation of the youth culture.
Speaker 1: The creation of the youth culture was preceded by a
Speaker 1: decade I think in the early fifties. In Program to Kill,
Speaker 1: he says, he provides, He puts forth, That puts forth
Speaker 1: the theory that the arrival of the serial killer phenomena
Speaker 1: on the American landscape wasn't an organic development or an
Speaker 1: accidental development coming out of America's post war you know,
Speaker 1: the environment of prosperity, youth culture, a sexual revolution. This
Speaker 1: was a plan. This was a weaponized sort of a
Speaker 1: domestic application of the Phoenix program, right, and also an
Speaker 1: attempt at maybe an update or a modification of murder
Speaker 1: Incorporated to carry out certain amount of hits and you know,
Speaker 1: and also an attempt to shape the culture, to create
Speaker 1: a culture of fear, to sort of expand or then
Speaker 1: vergeoning police state, swat teams, FBI, Quantico, uh, Quantico lab
Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and the justification of budgets. So
Speaker 1: that's that's just that's the thesis of the book. Is that?
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 1: How you you see his argument?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, absolutely, and yeah. The majority of the book
Speaker 2: is made up of the the serial killing crimes and
Speaker 2: ritual crimes and then you do have, like you said,
Speaker 2: those are those kind of early chapters that dealt with
Speaker 2: more of the sex crimes and pedophiles. But you know,
Speaker 2: one of the themes that he mentions is that a
Speaker 2: lot of these these people seem to have been known
Speaker 2: by the establishment, a lot of these devians. And so
Speaker 2: the idea here is that because a lot of these
Speaker 2: people who were troubled, maybe they were brought up in
Speaker 2: very severely dysfunctional homes and then maybe they were molested,
Speaker 2: and then having been through the system, they would have
Speaker 2: been fingered and earmarked as potential candidates for these kinds
Speaker 2: of things. Now that's very scary and that's very daunting.
Speaker 2: But when we think about all the other material that's
Speaker 2: out there, For example, the way that doctor e and
Speaker 2: Cameron was stationed at Mount Royal Psychiatric Institute in Canada,
Speaker 2: that's precisely what he was doing. He was finding troubled
Speaker 2: people in the psych wards to run his tests on.
Speaker 2: When we think about other aspects of the m culture
Speaker 2: program that will run through various universities and Human Ecology Foundation,
Speaker 2: or through these fronts, these psychiatric fronts, they were also
Speaker 2: working in prisons, like in Louisville, Kentucky, excuse me, Lexing
Speaker 2: in Kentucky. I think it was one of the sites
Speaker 2: where they were picking out prisoners according to John Marx's book.
Speaker 2: So that dovetails well with Dave's thesis, which is just
Speaker 2: that you have if you've grown up in the system,
Speaker 2: you know, with somebody like Charles Manson, He's a great
Speaker 2: example who's you know, he was in juvenile problems from
Speaker 2: like day one, right, so he would have been known
Speaker 2: to the system. Is what is what we're trying to
Speaker 2: say here, and that a lot of these guys seem
Speaker 2: to have a curious pattern of where they end up.
Speaker 2: And the serial killers tend to be excuse me, you
Speaker 2: tend to have these time periods where they spent a
Speaker 2: good bit of time in California, Texas, in Florida, excuse me.
Speaker 2: And so Dave kind of theorizes that what you have
Speaker 2: is in these states is number one, they're they're kind
Speaker 2: of obviously to military industrial complex type states, especially with
Speaker 2: a lot of the the bases in California. And then
Speaker 2: you have a lot of drug running that would be
Speaker 2: related to the Texas Mexico border, and then obviously drug
Speaker 2: running too from waterways, you know, into Florida, So so
Speaker 2: that that requires a lot of deep state apparatus, in
Speaker 2: other words, to to keep the drug situation flowing. And
Speaker 2: when you have one black market like drugs, you oftentimes
Speaker 2: have the other ones too, like human trafficking. So drugs
Speaker 2: in human trafficking requires sometimes threats and hitmen, and the
Speaker 2: the serial killer phenomenon then can have many uses, right,
Speaker 2: So you mentioned those in your description, but of course
Speaker 2: Dave also mentions the possibilities of unsolved murders. These can
Speaker 2: be haystacked, I think, is the term that you've used
Speaker 2: where police departments excuse me, the haystacking is where you
Speaker 2: you you have a target, but you sort of blend
Speaker 2: them in amongst a whole bunch of people that you've
Speaker 2: that you've killed, so what appears random. So that's another
Speaker 2: one of the thecs here. And then you also have
Speaker 2: the notion, like you said, of hay stacks of uh,
Speaker 2: you know, police departments kind of stacking these onto one
Speaker 2: guy and really Luke has killed you know, two hundred
Speaker 2: people or whatever, which seems seems a little bit uh implausible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they took him on a tour. I did that
Speaker 1: one yeah, I did that one. Yeah, yeah, that was
Speaker 1: me too.
Speaker 2: But I think it's fascinating too that you know, he
Speaker 2: tends to mention with these characters that they they could
Speaker 2: have been picked out because they had disassociative identity disorder.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: And that may not necessarily mean that they were like
Speaker 2: programmed in the sense of you like sent on the
Speaker 2: mission to do this. Now, they may have been in
Speaker 2: some cases, but rather than that, they would have been
Speaker 2: chosen as people who already had mental problems, is when
Speaker 2: I'm try. And that would be the cover, right, They
Speaker 2: would never be suspected for being used by the establishment
Speaker 2: or some nefarious group precisely because they're crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the reason, I mean the suspicion that that
Speaker 1: that sort of uh identification process was in place well
Speaker 1: with m k Ultra, the psycho psychiatic profession was completely
Speaker 1: taken over by the military and intelligence for the purposes
Speaker 1: of doing just that. So I mean, for example, you
Speaker 1: mentioned obviously you and Cameron up and up in Canada, uh,
Speaker 1: and he was funded by the Human Ecology Fund, the
Speaker 1: c I A. I mean this was George Esterbrooks World
Speaker 1: War two.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: You've over in the UK at the Tavistak Institute, which
Speaker 1: identified you know, shell shock and trauma and how it
Speaker 1: could be weaponized and manipulated PTSD and the various Uh.
Speaker 1: I think I think every prominent psychiatic hospital institution was
Speaker 1: somewhere or another one involved with mkultra back in the sixties,
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties. Uh, same with the Actually you mentioned
Speaker 1: the prisons Vacaville. There was a Angola prison in Louisiana,
Speaker 1: and yeah, you mentioned the one in Kentucky. So that's
Speaker 1: been established. So that's I mean, all the some of
Speaker 1: the big heavy hitters in psychiatry and psychology were part
Speaker 1: of mk ultra, and so that reporting mechanism would be
Speaker 1: there just for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so exactly right, And even even the public information
Speaker 2: is over forty universities in institutions like that were involved,
Speaker 2: so you know, and that would include I'm assuming universities
Speaker 2: that we probably would like. Yeah, it would be some
Speaker 2: of the obvious ones like Stanford and Harvard. You know.
Speaker 2: The ted Kyzenski was part of the m k Ultra
Speaker 2: project in.
Speaker 1: Right, and I think his victims were connected to SRI I. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: if if the official narrative is has any truth to
Speaker 1: it right, which is which is interesting. I mean, so
Speaker 1: he's he was an m k M culture test subject
Speaker 1: or victim.
Speaker 2: By the way, just a little aside. Here have you
Speaker 2: seen Spellbound.
Speaker 1: With with with Gregory Peck?
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw years ago with Ingenbergman,
Speaker 1: here's all the freudianism I thought was hilarious in it.
Speaker 2: Well, it is Roudianism. But what's interesting is that if
Speaker 2: you go back and watch it, Gregory Peck is being
Speaker 2: used as the he what the there's a doctor at
Speaker 2: the institute who's framing Gregory Peck for murder.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: He's doing that because Gregory Peck has this associative identity
Speaker 2: disorder and he can't remember what he's done. And so
Speaker 2: I was like, this is in the forties, and I
Speaker 2: was watching this the other day. I was like, man,
Speaker 2: this is kind of like an analogy for a lot
Speaker 2: of Damn Calter type stuff. This fits well with dem
Speaker 2: mc gallon's book because this guy believes that he's committed
Speaker 2: the murder and it was actually the head of the
Speaker 2: psychiatric institute.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the one with all the savage or Dolly
Speaker 1: Art in it.
Speaker 2: Correct. Yes, it has a surrealist all seeing eye the.
Speaker 1: Artwork, and I think it was George Esterbrooks. He was
Speaker 1: the world during World War Two. Was talking about my
Speaker 1: control and hypnosis and trauma to create used a disassociated disorder,
Speaker 1: multiple snalities to correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the essay Hypnosis Comes of Age, which is the
Speaker 2: most famous one that you can read. This was a
Speaker 2: it's online and it's the nineteen seventy one or two
Speaker 2: Science Digest essay that he wrote, and that's where he
Speaker 2: kind of lays out his bragging about all I can do.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the essay is older than nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy one, but it's that's where you'll find it online,
Speaker 2: is in that that format. But yeah, that's where he
Speaker 2: describes the process of hypnosis and the courier and the
Speaker 2: keywords and the triggers.
Speaker 1: And all that. And did you catch my interview with
Speaker 1: doctor Joseph Ferrell recently on common Core? I did, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And the he he's made it well and that interview
Speaker 1: knows on several and in the book of course, he
Speaker 1: connected uh, the Electronic Testing Service to the Human Ecology Fund.
Speaker 2: I did hear that?
Speaker 1: And when you're talking about you're you're talking how these
Speaker 1: guys could be identified, profiled as you know, through the
Speaker 1: various because they're identified as being psychological.
Speaker 2: We have the standardized testing exactly standardized testing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so now, and of course that was all
Speaker 1: done at the behest. I mean they contacted I think
Speaker 1: it was conit. I think a Harvard who ran it
Speaker 1: or something. Man, I forget the name right, remember, but
Speaker 1: basically it was It's done to not just identify, you know,
Speaker 1: the best and the brightest, or to sort of to
Speaker 1: channel people into the professions they think people should do
Speaker 1: based on their testing parameters or standards whatever. But you
Speaker 1: could you talk about today, I mean talk about the military.
Speaker 1: Does the video games write this interactive video games that
Speaker 1: go to the Pentagon first shooter games, these things.
Speaker 2: Being monitored and kill everybody at the wedding.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so these people can be identified like that. So
Speaker 1: I was imagining the technologies former advanced now just with
Speaker 1: obviously with the internet, with our smart devices everywhere and
Speaker 1: everything being monitored, what we read, what we buy or
Speaker 1: habits being monitored digitally, and that could you know, that
Speaker 1: could flags you know, certain you could get flagged and okay,
Speaker 1: here we get we got somebody, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's go.
Speaker 1: You know, so again it's one of the people hear
Speaker 1: the stuff says No, I mean that the the literature
Speaker 1: of the history is there, and it's been acknowledged that
Speaker 1: these that this was done. And again the all the universities,
Speaker 1: all the psychiatic hospitals, these prisons, these institutions, uh they're
Speaker 1: supposed to help us protect society were weaponized, you know,
Speaker 1: to do something quite opposite of what their with their
Speaker 1: public charter claims they're there to do.
Speaker 2: And if anybody doubts that, all you have to do
Speaker 2: is read the works of Bertrand Russell to understand the
Speaker 2: scientific outlook m hm. Because it's ruthless, it's not moral.
Speaker 2: They don't have any qualms of using people in that way.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And of course in the book he he
Speaker 1: just goes to a list of of of these serial killers.
Speaker 1: They all I'm not all of them, but almost military
Speaker 1: intelligence backgrounds UHM experience.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's where we would get the potential Phoenix connection.
Speaker 2: But I thought it was interesting that, uh I didn't
Speaker 2: actually know a whole lot about Henry Ucas, but you know,
Speaker 2: he points had a lot of suspicious things like being
Speaker 2: pardoned by w Yeah, he's a good man. Henry Lucas
Speaker 2: a good boy. He's a good boy, right. But so
Speaker 2: he claims that he was in a satanant colt though
Speaker 2: you know, so I don't know if it's true, but
Speaker 2: that's what Innery Lucas claimed that the hand of Death
Speaker 2: Cult you used him and that he was a contract killer,
Speaker 2: and that this was associated with human trafficking from Puarez
Speaker 2: into presumably Olpasso or Brownswell or somewhere. And this of
Speaker 2: course connects to the Death Cult MS thirteen, which is
Speaker 2: the Latin American gang that's you know, connected to all
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff. And I believe has to have
Speaker 2: some kind of help from above. I don't mean God,
Speaker 2: he's from above from the government, especially with you, because
Speaker 2: I watched them documentaries on Sante, which is the cult
Speaker 2: which a lot of the MS thirteen are into, and
Speaker 2: you look at the guys who runs cult, and there's
Speaker 2: totally shady, obviously involved in some kind of some kind
Speaker 2: of thing. And that's that jives well with a lot
Speaker 2: of what Dave claims in the Henry Lucas chapter. And
Speaker 2: you know, this is where we he's a good example
Speaker 2: of kind of the archetype of what his thesis is
Speaker 2: because Henry was office of a naval intelligence or had
Speaker 2: some connection there, or he was spotted there, and maybe
Speaker 2: he there's some connection to NATO. I'm looking back at
Speaker 2: the at the book here, careful screening of subjects was
Speaker 2: accomplished by the Navy psychologists and the military records. Many
Speaker 2: were convicted murderers serving prison sentences and they were put
Speaker 2: into this program. Yet here we go. So he's arguing
Speaker 2: that in chapter eight that Henry Lucas was probably one
Speaker 2: of these these people in this kind of a program.
Speaker 2: And the military is ruthless. You have to understand that too,
Speaker 2: Like they're just as ruthless as the scientism of Bertrand Russell.
Speaker 2: Like they don't have any qualms of I mean, they're
Speaker 2: in the business of killing people.
Speaker 1: They weaponized everything.
Speaker 2: Right, So you know, to a lot of people, this
Speaker 2: is just sounds so you know, well, we're American, we
Speaker 2: wouldn't do that. You know, we have the Wounded Warrior Project.
Speaker 2: We go back and grab our wounded men, we carry
Speaker 2: them back, right, But no, that's not really I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously a lot of people in the military are good
Speaker 2: natured and would do that. But that doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: that's the modus opera. And I have the total totality
Speaker 2: of the military. I mean, there's you know, it's compartmentalized.
Speaker 2: There's all kinds of secret projects and stuff like this,
Speaker 2: and so you know, Dave just kind of lists a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of these characters that seem to pop up
Speaker 2: around the same time. And you have Berkowitz, and you
Speaker 2: have I think he mentioned Jim Jones or in some capacity.
Speaker 2: I don't know that Jim Jones was necessarily atary connection,
Speaker 2: although we know that he had the connection to Dan Miturion,
Speaker 2: who was the CIA guy down in.
Speaker 1: Guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, hello, can you hear me? You're you're getting really
Speaker 2: you're cutting up really bad? Have I Now, No, it's
Speaker 2: just super staticky.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me give you and they give you a
Speaker 1: call back. Okay, yeah, clear it up.
Speaker 2: Than uh so, Yeah, I think this is a chapter
Speaker 2: eight is one of the one of the more important
Speaker 2: chapters in the book because this is where he's talking
Speaker 2: about they're called CTS criminal. I don't know what that
Speaker 2: stands for, but these are the people who are in
Speaker 2: the Phoenix program and they're they're the ones that are
Speaker 2: trained to they're kind of profile to be the psychos,
Speaker 2: and then they're kind of let loose obviously the awe
Speaker 2: into the offices of psychological terror against the Viet Cong.
Speaker 2: And then these people come back, and you know, they're
Speaker 2: already known to military, so they could be put to
Speaker 2: all kinds of use, right, And that's that's a very
Speaker 2: enticing theory, I think.
Speaker 1: Because what do you do with these men once they
Speaker 1: come back?
Speaker 2: What do you do with these guys? Right? And so anyway,
Speaker 2: that's that's I'm flipping through the chapter. So that that
Speaker 2: was a really important chapter. And I didn't know anything
Speaker 2: about the Mathea mortros culled. That was totally new to
Speaker 2: had heard of it, but that was new to me.
Speaker 2: And then so you just realized that there's so many
Speaker 2: examples of this stuff that it's kind of just been
Speaker 2: forgotten in the you know, in the news. Like I
Speaker 2: remember this back in the eighties or nineties or whatever
Speaker 2: it was, but in the eighties, but you know, we
Speaker 2: were told that there was that was all a Satanic
Speaker 2: panic created a by Roaldo. There was no real Satanism,
Speaker 2: there was none of this. It was just a panic.
Speaker 2: Yet throughout the eighties and nineties, the Juarez was the
Speaker 2: world capital for missing women. And I actually went and
Speaker 2: looked up a lot of Dave's claims and articles on this,
Speaker 2: not only because I had traveled last summer too California
Speaker 2: and stopped in El Paso on the way and I
Speaker 2: saw Juarez and it made me think of the movie Cicicario,
Speaker 2: and I was thinking, good grief looks so awful over
Speaker 2: at Juarez. And in Cecario, the story is that the
Speaker 2: FBI girl is tricked into working with this military out
Speaker 2: of Shae. She's out of Shae for a military outfit
Speaker 2: that's run by the CIA, and she thinks that she's
Speaker 2: going to take out a drug dealer assassin, and really
Speaker 2: all that what what was happening was that the CIA
Speaker 2: was taking out a rival drug dealer yea, And so
Speaker 2: they do the FBI girl anyway, so that all takes
Speaker 2: place in Juarez in the in the movie. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: sitting here eating this chapter in Dave's book, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: this is straight out. This sounds just like Secario. And
Speaker 2: you know it's not hard to believe. I mean if
Speaker 2: you go and you you know, you look at the
Speaker 2: border wall there in El Paso when you look over
Speaker 2: into the water as it just for a second, it
Speaker 2: looks like a hell hole.
Speaker 1: Well, they got to keep it a hell hole because
Speaker 1: it's also a good source of.
Speaker 2: Cheap labor for the Well, that's what Davison points out too,
Speaker 2: is that this is a big part of NAPTO was
Speaker 2: being able to move all the sweatshops there. But you know,
Speaker 2: he argues that there's a lot more going on that
Speaker 2: it's not just sweatshops that you know, the women are
Speaker 2: going missing for a reason. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that Rancho Diablo, which is an interesting name.
Speaker 2: For yes, that comes up in here too. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: is that the one that's connected to the mapa Moros.
Speaker 1: And there was rated by the Texas Rangers eventually, yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: and they found bones all over the place, and again
Speaker 1: for years, people ignored it for years. That's just a rumor,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a myth. And I think that's the
Speaker 1: one that Henry Lucas talked about, isn't it. And Henry
Speaker 1: Lucas is an interesting story because you know, he's supposed
Speaker 1: to be the serial killer because he teamed up with
Speaker 1: two three different people at a time. One of his partners,
Speaker 1: tool otis Toole, who has been linked to the death
Speaker 1: of Adam Walsh. And everyone knows, you know, the uh
Speaker 1: uh most want what's that show on Fox? Uh? Not
Speaker 1: most wanted? What was it? Walsh? He'd had that show on.
Speaker 2: Fox News America's most wanted.
Speaker 1: Of course, that was in nineteen eighty one. His son
Speaker 1: missing a sears in a Roebuck in nineteen eighty one
Speaker 1: and the boy's head was on floating in the canal
Speaker 1: otis tool was taken in for questioning for that crime,
Speaker 1: and the police at the time lost the machete and
Speaker 1: even the I believe in the automobile that he had used,
Speaker 1: and they let him go and he and he was
Speaker 1: in prison again later on, and he supposedly confessed to
Speaker 1: that crime. And if you know, you're probably too young
Speaker 1: to remember, but I remember that very well because that
Speaker 1: was one of these national stories. We started getting national
Speaker 1: stories in the eighties about missing kids. We didn't get
Speaker 1: those in the seventies as regional. And it he was
Speaker 1: one on Phil Donahue Show and all this, and you know,
Speaker 1: it became a crusade about missing exploited children. And of
Speaker 1: course the fact that the head was separated, you know,
Speaker 1: suggests some sort of maybe satanic thing. But this gets
Speaker 1: into the sort of the alchemical I guess, element of
Speaker 1: the Serira Chillar phenomena that Michael Hoppin gets into. But
Speaker 1: even Dave McGowan talks about it creating fear, creating an
Speaker 1: adami society where kids can wander, go out in place,
Speaker 1: communities no longer cohere. This just getting it out there
Speaker 1: like that would terrify the community. And it was.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 1: It was a trauma for the entire nation the way
Speaker 1: the media covered it. And and what's strange is, of
Speaker 1: course this Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida, otis tools
Speaker 1: arrested the governor of Texas. But again, in all the cases,
Speaker 1: whether it's the same thing with John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 1: otis tool is inexplicable, complete police incompetence, the failure to
Speaker 1: follow up on things. And that's what he points out,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this comes uh to the four especially in
Speaker 2: the case of Oh my mind just went blank. I
Speaker 2: watched the after I read the book, I watched a
Speaker 2: four hour TV movie.
Speaker 1: Oh that was on John Wayne Gacy with Denny Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So here he's essentially now that the TV show moved.
Speaker 2: The TV movie kind of hints at it, but not really.
Speaker 2: They don't go into the fact that he was seems
Speaker 2: to have been operating very well with the local police,
Speaker 2: you know, as if maybe he was maybe their guy,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like their guy to take
Speaker 2: out people, because if there was a gay prostitution slash
Speaker 2: drug ring, then presumably in that kind of a setting,
Speaker 2: you're going to be worried about narcs, and so you know,
Speaker 2: you might need to have somebody around to take out
Speaker 2: the narcs. No, I don't know if that's exactly what
Speaker 2: was going on with him, but but I mean that
Speaker 2: makes that makes sense in terms of the police and
Speaker 2: competence and the fact that he was this very prominent
Speaker 2: member of the community and the j CS and you know,
Speaker 2: all these civic organizations that he was a part of.
Speaker 1: David Guta makes a point in the book he talks
Speaker 1: about the who idea of the serial killer profile. He says,
Speaker 1: most Americans are probably familiar with what is considered the
Speaker 1: classic serial killer profile. This was the notion for a
Speaker 1: first put forth by the venerable FBI, which coined the
Speaker 1: term serial killer and pioneered the concept of profiling in
Speaker 1: an alleged attempt to understand the phenomenon of the mass murder.
Speaker 1: It appears to be the case, though, that the concept
Speaker 1: of the serial killer profile was put forth to largely
Speaker 1: misinform the public. And if you scrutinize these cases, one
Speaker 1: can't help but agree with the mister McCowan on that point,
Speaker 1: because none of them like to buy buying torturing, kill killer,
Speaker 1: none of us, none of us supposed to kills follow
Speaker 1: any profile. And that's one that's the case of hay
Speaker 1: Stacking put potentially because one of those first kills was
Speaker 1: this military guy who told his son that someone's after him,
Speaker 1: and the whole family was wiped out, his wife who
Speaker 1: was trained in martial arts. Two dogs I think were killed,
Speaker 1: another son and him.
Speaker 2: Right, and Dave makes the argument that it looks a
Speaker 2: lot more like a actual operations trained person, Yeah, came
Speaker 2: in and did this, as opposed to you know, this
Speaker 2: weird creepy guy that's just kind of you know, stalking
Speaker 2: around the neighborhood. You know, like like we're what we're
Speaker 2: told it is.
Speaker 1: And uh, the you meant in your talk you talked
Speaker 1: about the Zodiac killer you know, and how of course,
Speaker 1: how again, well, there's a boot that was identified as
Speaker 1: being a navy issue or something, right, right, so military,
Speaker 1: And I guess that seems that there again, that seems
Speaker 1: to be a case with a lot of people doing it,
Speaker 1: some of them some of the people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, yeah, like burke Wood said, and then burke
Speaker 2: Wood says, oh, I was at the working at the
Speaker 2: behest of a larger satanic cult.
Speaker 1: The of course, sena same case came on later, that
Speaker 1: was the seventies and Maury Terry's book Positive Theory that
Speaker 1: it was a cult doing it, and he just Burger
Speaker 1: with himself said he was only to the shootings, right,
Speaker 1: And Michael Hoffman sort of examines that case and talking
Speaker 1: about all the evidence suggesting that it was indeed multiple,
Speaker 1: you know, perpetrators.
Speaker 2: Well, one of the points exactly one of the points
Speaker 2: of Oliver Stone slash Quentin Tarantino's movie Natural Born Killers
Speaker 2: is that the media is really what creates and gives
Speaker 2: everybody the impression of the serial killer. So I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm not I don't know how cognizant they were of
Speaker 2: Dave's book, but I'm saying or Dave's word because I
Speaker 2: think that that that movie came out when I was
Speaker 2: in high school. But the point of the movie is
Speaker 2: that the media makes these people in two stars, that
Speaker 2: makes their media creations, is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2: And so that once again shows the role of mass
Speaker 2: media in terms of sciops. Because you know, if Dave's
Speaker 2: thesis is right, then that's why we don't see them anymore.
Speaker 2: They're not needed anymore. That's where did all the zero
Speaker 2: killers got? Where are they?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the work, the work's been done, I guess exactly
Speaker 1: the getting into the the why this you look at it?
Speaker 1: When the serial killer emerged against the late sixties, I
Speaker 1: think the Zodiac Killer was probably we're at you at
Speaker 1: the the salvo. The Boston Strangler another case where none
Speaker 1: of the doesn't fit any of the profile. In fact,
Speaker 1: people think he went to prison for his being the
Speaker 1: Boston strangler. He didn't. He was convicted for another crime.
Speaker 1: And I think it was weird as f Lee Bailey
Speaker 1: was his lawyer who presented the strange defense that he
Speaker 1: that he was not innocent, not guilty of the crime
Speaker 1: is charged because he was busy strangling somebody. I think
Speaker 1: that was his defense.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: But d Salvo himself looks like some sort of mind
Speaker 1: control victim. U. Yeah, and there's only there was no age,
Speaker 1: women of all ages. There's no profile to it, and
Speaker 1: it's just one of these weird cases.
Speaker 2: Oh. By the way, Ted Bundy also is one of
Speaker 2: says claims that there were other people involved. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: that it was he wasn't just him as the loan gunner.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And that's another thing to remember. He's able
Speaker 1: to break out of prison and kill multiple girls at
Speaker 1: a sorority. And I mean it's like, how does he
Speaker 1: breaks out of prison and able to same thing Richard
Speaker 1: Speck remember his case, and he broke into the nurses
Speaker 1: dorm or something and was able to murder multiple girls
Speaker 1: as they waited. I mean they were like locked in
Speaker 1: a room and waited. Uh.
Speaker 2: Interesting, but I don't remember the detail. But I remember
Speaker 2: you noticed this coming up too. And Richard Ramirez' case.
Speaker 2: He he said to have been trained by his relative
Speaker 2: who was a military killer of some sort.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in Vietnam. Was in vietnamause I think his cousin,
Speaker 1: the old brother or something. Yeah, it was true.
Speaker 2: And then Bobby Joe Long is the cousin of Lucas.
Speaker 1: That's all the family. But look at the context when
Speaker 1: this is happening, is we're talking about the nineteen sixties,
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, and what the Vietnam War represented a
Speaker 1: lot of motivations for that war. Wasn't the domino theory,
Speaker 1: you know. Obviously, one was big war contracts milled, a
Speaker 1: lot of spending Kellig Brown and Rute, a lot of
Speaker 1: harbors to be dragged, a lot of helicopters get shot
Speaker 1: down and maintained and replaced in these things. Another motivation
Speaker 1: for the war chrismas heroin. We've talked about that. But
Speaker 1: another one I think Chris, when I talked to Chris Milligan,
Speaker 1: he comes up with the theory that the war itself
Speaker 1: was intended as a trauma for society. It's society to
Speaker 1: kind of create a divide between generations. Yes, this gets discoes,
Speaker 1: you know, they broader theory behind the counterculture. And order
Speaker 1: to get the counterculture, you needed a war to protest.
Speaker 1: And so the overall trauma of that war. Of course,
Speaker 1: within that war and the war itself provided a great
Speaker 1: opportunity not only to experience to test various weapons, weapons systems,
Speaker 1: weapon platforms, the most of psychological warfare. Of course, Doug
Speaker 1: Doug Valentine's work on the Phoenix program is invaluable in
Speaker 1: understanding the Phoenix program. What his intent was was to
Speaker 1: counterinsertainty program to destroy what referred to as the civilians
Speaker 1: infrastructure of the Viet Cong. Of course, what that really
Speaker 1: means is on the ground is killing a lot of
Speaker 1: innocent people, torturing a lot of people, terrorizing them.
Speaker 2: It's what you see in Apocalypse now. Yes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's of course created by William Colby. And I
Speaker 2: just lost my train of thought.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, well, the implication is that
Speaker 1: if in order to subdue the civilian population of Vietnam
Speaker 1: to achieve whatever reject of the US government had in
Speaker 1: Vietnam at the time. Oh yeah, I'm go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I remember now. So yeah, what you start to notice
Speaker 2: is that these operations that are run for foreign psychological operations.
Speaker 2: This is what I've been noticing the last couple of years,
Speaker 2: especially when you study the phenomena of the Color revolutions
Speaker 2: and Arab Spring and then all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 2: And then you also look at the School of the
Speaker 2: Americas and the Desk squads, and then you start to
Speaker 2: realize that that the foreign ops are kind of test tubes,
Speaker 2: and then maybe it looks like at times they'll they'll
Speaker 2: bring that back home and do it mastically. So it's
Speaker 2: not this is a pattern. I guess it's been going
Speaker 2: on for a long time, That's what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's attempted to destabilize, and of course you're
Speaker 1: going to destabilize Honduras or l Salvador or Peru or
Speaker 1: Chile in a different way that you destabilize you know, Springfield, America,
Speaker 1: you know, Los Angeles. But uh, yeah, so the idea
Speaker 1: of the Phoenix program. Obviously things like the I don't know,
Speaker 1: Department Home Security grew out of the Phoenix program. The
Speaker 1: ideas before it, you know, the basic idea of these
Speaker 1: whole idea of of fusion centers is an adaptation of
Speaker 1: the Phoenix program to model people. So all these so
Speaker 1: these things don't go away. They're you know, they're you know,
Speaker 1: they're tested and they're modified. But the idea of perhaps uh,
Speaker 1: destabilizing the home front for for a particular reason, for
Speaker 1: some sort of as MIKEA. Hofflin Systems of Alchemical process
Speaker 1: so so to debate or degrade, to break down, to
Speaker 1: atomize the civilization and the community. And obviously you get
Speaker 1: that with the fear of crime and the serial killer
Speaker 1: the he talks about it. Uh yeah, of.
Speaker 2: Course, that's the grado, the blackening.
Speaker 1: There you go, yeah, yeah, you're right exactly. Of course,
Speaker 1: many serial murders are nothing more than the work of
Speaker 1: a single individual acting on a graphic horror movie he saw,
Speaker 1: or responding to a powerful psychotic impulse, impulses for aggression
Speaker 1: and predation. But many other serial murders involved the cult,
Speaker 1: a cult protected by the US government and the corporate
Speaker 1: media with strong ties to the police. These murders, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously you're starting on John Wan Gacy's evidence of that
Speaker 1: these murders are actually intricately choreographed rituals, performed first on
Speaker 1: a very intimate, secret scale among the initiates themselves in
Speaker 1: order to program them, then on a grand scale amplified
Speaker 1: and calculatul and caculably by the electronic media like natural
Speaker 1: born killers. Right right, yeah, So there you go, and
Speaker 1: this one gets in the end, what we have is
Speaker 1: a highly symbolic ritual working broadcast and millions of people,
Speaker 1: a Satanic inversion, a black mass where the pews are
Speaker 1: filled by the entire nation, and through which humanity is paganized, brutalized,
Speaker 1: and debased in this negrado phase about chemical process. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there you go, you're right, yeah, pressure you remember that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Uh And well, like I can see reading that if
Speaker 1: you're just like an average Joe, you know who just
Speaker 1: what is this guy talking about? But the uh and
Speaker 1: you see that in burker Ritz, You see that in
Speaker 1: uh in Bundy, you see it in John Wayne Gacy
Speaker 1: and all these things. Jack the Ripper, Yeah, Jack the
Speaker 1: Ripper is uh uh he chases the back duffer who
Speaker 1: the guy's Laura gall I think was his name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of these like high level British Mason.
Speaker 1: Free Mason abortionists.
Speaker 2: Yea.
Speaker 1: And the point is, and he makes the point in
Speaker 1: psychological warfare and secret society's suicide and psychological warfare is
Speaker 1: this sort of process won't work in a society that's healthy.
Speaker 1: So the study has to be broken down bit by
Speaker 1: bit gradually, where if society gets brutalized and aren't brutalized
Speaker 1: enough and did great enough, then it does work, because
Speaker 1: a healthy society will have a natural defense mechanism for
Speaker 1: these things.
Speaker 2: Yes, he uses the term theater of cruelty. So the
Speaker 2: whole nation or the whole society becomes like the horror
Speaker 2: movie and it's intended to brutalize, and that that kind
Speaker 2: of goes It's a trauma based mind control on a
Speaker 2: mass scale. And so in Dave's book, he talks about
Speaker 2: the blooding. He's I'd never heard it called that. I've
Speaker 2: just always heard people say, you know, people that are
Speaker 2: severely disturbed, like these killers, you know, they're just traumatized.
Speaker 2: But he calls it a blooding that at a certain
Speaker 2: point in their lives, when they're younger, they're intentionally exposed
Speaker 2: to the macabre and to something bloody or traumatic. Do
Speaker 2: you remember what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like you know, there's sixteen and they get a
Speaker 2: job at a morgue or something and they're like dealing
Speaker 2: with cadavers and then you know, weird stuff's going on,
Speaker 2: and you know, this is I'm not saying that everybody
Speaker 2: who is a mortician's evil. I'm just saying that in
Speaker 2: the cases of these people, He's noted that as a
Speaker 2: consistent pattern that you know, they had some sort of
Speaker 2: grotesque exposure you know that scarred them I guess in
Speaker 2: some way at a formative period in their life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he makes point what this, what these uh,
Speaker 1: what this trauma creates is? He says, it's a what
Speaker 1: we observe in the population today. Are there three destructive
Speaker 1: symptoms of persons whose minds are controlled by alien forces?
Speaker 1: I guess what he means by that is the psychological
Speaker 1: warfare amnesia, i e. Loss of memory, abulia, loss of will,
Speaker 1: and apathy loss of interest in the events vital to
Speaker 1: one's on health and survival. Amnesia, abulia, and apathy are
Speaker 1: nearly universal amongst today and gaining a greater foothole each
Speaker 1: passing day. This and this is done again through the
Speaker 1: electronic media, through entertainment. He even talks about what breads
Speaker 1: and circuses and the effects.
Speaker 2: Of that Negrado process. Uh. It's a page sixty seven
Speaker 2: that may have been where you were reading. But he says,
Speaker 2: in the end, we have a highly symbolic ritual broadcast
Speaker 2: to millions of people, a satanic conversion of black matter,
Speaker 2: where the peues are filled with the entire nation, the
Speaker 2: Negrado phase. Then he goes to say. The French adept
Speaker 2: Antony and Are Todd, architect of the Theater of Cruelty,
Speaker 2: wrote about this in terms of the group mind. Aside
Speaker 2: from trifling witchcraft of country sorcerers, there are tricks of
Speaker 2: global who do in which all alerted consciousness participate periodically.
Speaker 2: That is how the strange forces are aroused and transported
Speaker 2: to the astral vault, to that dark dome. Now this
Speaker 2: all sounds kind of crazy, but what the guy's saying
Speaker 2: is that when you have a huge event like the
Speaker 2: whole nation's fixated on Manson or the whole nations fixated
Speaker 2: on Zodiac or nine to eleven, that it's understood that
Speaker 2: you can reason from the individual to the collective. So
Speaker 2: if you have an individual who is traumatizing because he's
Speaker 2: fixated on you know that the shock that happened, that
Speaker 2: you can do that same process on a mass scale
Speaker 2: through having everybody's energy and focus, you know, an attention
Speaker 2: on you know, whatever this gigantic so called crime is,
Speaker 2: z Yeah or Manson or whatever, and that what that
Speaker 2: does is then that everybody's participating in this process of
Speaker 2: being being ritualized. You're you're being You're going through the
Speaker 2: ritual process. I've written a bunch of articles on mass
Speaker 2: media is like a ritual process. But but anyway, that's
Speaker 2: what that's what happens saying. Is that just just hammering
Speaker 2: home that point that that I've been arguing too, that
Speaker 2: you can you can reason from the individual to the
Speaker 2: from the micro to the macro scale to understand and
Speaker 2: that's exactly what they did with the kulture is they've
Speaker 2: expanded the the individual studies to the mass you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, same, not just through the h with drug distribution
Speaker 1: and also with meat, mass media and psychological.
Speaker 2: Warfare exactly right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, here's the part he says it much better
Speaker 1: than I said. He says talking about he's talking about
Speaker 1: revelation the method, and talking about why would they reveal
Speaker 1: what they're doing? How would that serve the uh, the
Speaker 1: interest of the cryptocracy? He says, why would the perpetrators
Speaker 1: want to their secrets revealed after the fact, even if
Speaker 1: it is years later? The question, sorry, the the question
Speaker 1: can only be definitively answered if one has an understanding
Speaker 1: of the zeitgeist, which overseers in the cryptocracy have partly
Speaker 1: manufactured and partly tailored their own operations to coincide with
Speaker 1: As I've pointed out, secrets like this were rarely revealed
Speaker 1: in the past because traditional people had yet had not
Speaker 1: yet completed the out chemical processing. To make such perverse
Speaker 1: modern revelations to an unprocessed, healthy, vigorous population possessed of will, memory,
Speaker 1: adherence to their deepest inner intuition and interests, and intense
Speaker 1: interest in their own salvation would not have been a
Speaker 1: good thing for the cryptocracy. It would have proved fatal
Speaker 1: to them. But to reveal it after the acts of secret,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, oh sorry, But to reveal it, you know,
Speaker 1: players after they've been processed. I lost my quote there. Well,
Speaker 1: basically to reveal it later after they've been processed, they
Speaker 1: can't respond to it, and then they fall into that
Speaker 1: when he was talking about loss of will, loss of memory,
Speaker 1: and apathy, and they can then be you know, they
Speaker 1: can then be manipulated.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the hypnotist with the victim there, you know,
Speaker 2: like Spengali. This is the government of Spengali and you're
Speaker 2: the beautiful young maiden you know, yeah, in the population exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but again you're and we're talking again, what's going
Speaker 1: on again? It's which why does would go, it's the
Speaker 1: serial killer would come on the scene. In the late
Speaker 1: sixties and the height of the Vietnam War, and going
Speaker 1: into the seventies, you have the economic crisis of the
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, the closing of the gold window at the
Speaker 1: end of Breton Woods, the debasement of the dollars and
Speaker 1: coincides also the cultural debasement of the of the American people.
Speaker 1: This feminism, the promotion of perversion like gay rights through
Speaker 1: planned parenthood, these things. This is trending society upside down
Speaker 1: and making everyone confused. The uh targeting of things like
Speaker 1: the family that was that occurred would also lead to
Speaker 1: further degradation also for the trauma, which would complete the process.
Speaker 1: What you're seeing now, the confusion we're seeing exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, the the alchemical process includes the
Speaker 2: period or the stage of androgyny, and that's ultimately the
Speaker 2: meaning of the bathroom met symbol altheum that is, androgynists
Speaker 2: has both genders. And if you listen to a lot
Speaker 2: of interviews with these people who are really into this
Speaker 2: trans stuff, and I'm speaking kind of across the board,
Speaker 2: like if they're into transhumanism or trans maybe well maybe transvestite.
Speaker 2: But there's there's some pop culture so called icons who
Speaker 2: have uh watched documentaries on who talk about their their
Speaker 2: beliefs and why they wanted to change their genders, like
Speaker 2: this weirdoh Genesis p Orridge, who's a kind of a
Speaker 2: punk figure, post punk or whatever you call it just
Speaker 2: makes noise. The guys mentally eat unstable obviously, but he
Speaker 2: went through the gender process or to some degree gender
Speaker 2: change excuse me, reassign or whatever, and he's he goes
Speaker 2: into it and he starts talking about alchemy. He says, well,
Speaker 2: I'm a fervent believer in alchemy, and I believe that
Speaker 2: in the original state of whatever the divine was or
Speaker 2: whatever we evolved from, that it was neither male nor female,
Speaker 2: or in some cases they'll actually say they believe that
Speaker 2: it was female that we all evolve from, like some
Speaker 2: sort of feminine primal cell. So you get In other words,
Speaker 2: it's all based on nonsense. It's all based on myths
Speaker 2: and gnostic fables. But they will say that since and
Speaker 2: this isn't neo platonism too, and platonism, that the original
Speaker 2: unity could not have any distinctions or particularities, that couldn't
Speaker 2: have masculinity or femininity, so it had to be that
Speaker 2: that has to be the state that we got to
Speaker 2: get back to. Right, and this fits all into the
Speaker 2: stuff that Huxley talks about openly. So you have to
Speaker 2: we have to get rid of distinctions. That the enemy
Speaker 2: of the future will be distinctions, distinct nations, distinct genders,
Speaker 2: distinct racis, distinct religion, distinct claims. All that has to
Speaker 2: be destroyed in the name of unity and globalism. That's
Speaker 2: literally what Huxley says. So they are where of alchemy.
Speaker 2: In fact, I think even Kestler in Ghosts of the
Speaker 2: Machine talks about the whole process is alchemy. And you say, well,
Speaker 2: they're scientists that don't believe in medieval alchemy. Well, it's
Speaker 2: those are just terms for the same process, right. So
Speaker 2: if you you know, if you take, if you're taking
Speaker 2: genetically modify, if you're if you're taking a fish scale
Speaker 2: and putting it into a tomato to make the tomatoes
Speaker 2: skin stronger against pesticides, you're not doing anything different than
Speaker 2: what a medieval alchemist wanted to do. He just didn't
Speaker 2: have the means to do it or the technology do
Speaker 2: But that's at least what he was trying to do
Speaker 2: was you know, mess up creation and whatnot. Uh. And
Speaker 2: that's really what alchemy is is just the the the
Speaker 2: attempt to it's the domination of nature through technical ultimately
Speaker 2: at the chemical biological level. Uh. That's that's what I
Speaker 2: read alchemy as. So. Yeah, I mean there's all this
Speaker 2: kind of spiritual stuff that people try to tack onto it.
Speaker 2: Of John d would say, oh, I can turn base
Speaker 2: matter into God, you can become God through my alchemical steps,
Speaker 2: and enoch in magic. But I think a lot of
Speaker 2: that stuff is just they were just con men.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Alchemy is is more so chemistry. That's what it eventually becomes,
Speaker 2: is the it's chemistry. But but what is so fascinating
Speaker 2: is that even if we deride or laugh at the
Speaker 2: notion of alchemy, you know, what the establishment is doing,
Speaker 2: what genetics research is doing, what bioengineering is doing, what
Speaker 2: geoengineering is doing, is actually you know, creating the the
Speaker 2: monstrosities that the alchemist talked about. Yeah, not liberal Well
Speaker 2: I don't know what they actually do in clone labs.
Speaker 2: Who knows what they're doing. But when we look at
Speaker 2: you know, sinomics, and we look at the aborted fetal
Speaker 2: cells being used for the flavoring in pepsi and four
Speaker 2: the vaccines, which is all true. You know that that's alchemy,
Speaker 2: that's dark alchemy.
Speaker 1: Yes, you also made it interesting because in your talk
Speaker 1: you talk about serial killers, and Michael Hoffman a point
Speaker 1: that's basically it's the promotion of thanatosis, So the cult
Speaker 1: of death, it's being promoted in all this h and
Speaker 1: you mentioned well, women with multiple abortions and how sort
Speaker 1: of the.
Speaker 2: That's never mentioned as psychopathy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he makes it's very fun because in psychological warfare,
Speaker 1: secret society and psychological warfare. He says, of course, no
Speaker 1: matter what her affiliations, Sharon Tate's murder was a heinous crime.
Speaker 1: It's interesting to note that while much is made of
Speaker 1: the murder of her unb baby as being the most
Speaker 1: horrible part of the Mason gangs are called violence, women
Speaker 1: who pay physicians to kill their unborn babies are not
Speaker 1: regarded as guilty of any satanic act, heinous or otherwise.
Speaker 1: With the sacrifice of Sharon Tate's unborn baby somehow a
Speaker 1: ritual precursor for the coming mass sacrifice of unborn children,
Speaker 1: which was subsequently legalized by the United States Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: So this was August nineteen seventy nine. Of course, for
Speaker 1: the Wade is January nineteen seventy three. That was an
Speaker 1: interesting point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, think about and here we are now with
Speaker 2: Kurt Gosmill, m guys like that.
Speaker 4: So so, I mean, people, people might balk at the
Speaker 4: idea of ritual and in power behind these kinds of acts.
Speaker 2: But if you I'm not saying that shamanism is true.
Speaker 2: Obviously I don't believe in shamanism, but if you read
Speaker 2: the approach that shamans have, or the how they go
Speaker 2: about their process of understanding the world and their ritual
Speaker 2: process and all that, even though I think they're totally wrong,
Speaker 2: in a way, it's perhaps spiritually speaking, a little more
Speaker 2: closer to the mark because they understand that, you know,
Speaker 2: they're tapping into entities on the other side. And we
Speaker 2: would laugh at that, bulk at that in modern America,
Speaker 2: we think that that's so superstitious and stupid. But you know,
Speaker 2: there are many many indigenous tribes and shamans out there
Speaker 2: in the world, and many of them still take hallucinogens.
Speaker 2: This is being promoted in our country I've had bad
Speaker 2: experiences on hallucingens, so I know directly that you know,
Speaker 2: you're tampering with the psyche and you're tampering with your spirit,
Speaker 2: and that's a dangerous road to go down. And I
Speaker 2: also think that the LSD was a big part of it,
Speaker 2: that that just as the shaman goes through an initiation,
Speaker 2: the promotion of LSD I think was a kind of
Speaker 2: ritual process because again and when Gordon Wasson and you know,
Speaker 2: these characters went and got the ergots for the creation
Speaker 2: of LSD at the Sandels Pharmaceutical Corporation, they were also
Speaker 2: aware of what the shamans were able to do when
Speaker 2: the shamans would initiate people. So you cannot divorce these
Speaker 2: drugs from that process, even though even though we tend
Speaker 2: to think of them as divorced from it, like oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're just partying, we're just hanging out, and I'm saying that, No,
Speaker 2: there's an actual power behind these things. That's very dangerous,
Speaker 2: and that's why so many people go crazy and you know,
Speaker 2: jump out of buildings and plunging to their death, and
Speaker 2: you know, see, you know that they get lost in
Speaker 2: other realms in their mind, they're crazy. You know, all
Speaker 2: that stuff happens for a reason, because this is very
Speaker 2: dangerous and basically what I'm saying is a satanic is
Speaker 2: what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I'm not saying that
Speaker 2: drugs in themselves are always bad. Obviously, nothing that God
Speaker 2: created in itself is evil. But what I'm saying is
Speaker 2: that the mass promotion of these things and the pharmaceutical
Speaker 2: usage of these things, I think generally speaking, is not
Speaker 2: for human well being.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's if you look at the how many
Speaker 1: college students I think John Rapperport did I think had
Speaker 1: an article talking about how twenty five percent of college
Speaker 1: students are receiving psychotic care. Yes, and they're being dyna
Speaker 1: and they're given you know, psychatrific drugs to deal with
Speaker 1: their problems. When you know, anyone looking at why a
Speaker 1: freshman or sophomore college might having might have living problems
Speaker 1: because they're away from home for the first time, not
Speaker 1: doing well. Maybe they received a bad education, poor education
Speaker 1: in high school. Maybe I don't know. Maybe you know,
Speaker 1: they're very guilty because they're hooking up too much. Maybe
Speaker 1: they're you know, all types of things that have nothing
Speaker 1: to do with uh, that can that can be dealt
Speaker 1: with through pharmacology. Yeah, but the schools themselves have become
Speaker 1: not only uh uh instruments for for debt bondage, you know,
Speaker 1: predatory loan institutions, but they've also become a mass mic
Speaker 1: control operation, not just through just do poor education or indoctrination,
Speaker 1: but through drugs.
Speaker 2: Apparently, right right, I did. I would recommend people too.
Speaker 2: I did an essay or an article I don't know,
Speaker 2: four or five years ago, but I can't remember the
Speaker 2: name of the times, something like Masculine Feminine Wisdom or
Speaker 2: something like that, and it's about the drug experience. And
Speaker 2: I'm actually arguing against the use of hallucinogens because I
Speaker 2: see them as such a spiritual danger. Nobody talks about
Speaker 2: them as a spiritual danger. And that's what's very surprising
Speaker 2: to me, because you can watch the BBC documentary as
Speaker 2: a whole series of this guy, Bruce Perry I think
Speaker 2: is his name, and he just totally really stupid on
Speaker 2: his part, went and found like twelve, ten or twelve
Speaker 2: different indigenous tribes and he went through the ritual process
Speaker 2: of all these tribes to be initiated in and most
Speaker 2: of them involved the usage of hallucinogens and pretty heavy
Speaker 2: talksins at times. And you know, he describes this process too,
Speaker 2: and he really he eventually came to realization that it
Speaker 2: was all it was. It couldn't really be divorced from
Speaker 2: its spiritual significance, and and it ended up being a
Speaker 2: bad thing for him, Like he felt like he had
Speaker 2: to go get like psychiatric help eventually after he had
Speaker 2: done all this, which was completely stupid. I mean, I
Speaker 2: can't yeah, assuming that he really did all this, that
Speaker 2: it wasn't like a BBC put on or something. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he really did this. You know, he had to get
Speaker 2: psychiatric help, and you know, he had experienced too much
Speaker 2: dark stuff. But you know, I swear on it that
Speaker 2: it's real. You will you will encounter dark things. Not
Speaker 2: every time, not every single person. I can't speak for,
Speaker 2: because it's it's more of a like you kind of
Speaker 2: take this inner journey and you're kind of forced to
Speaker 2: deal with the issues that you have. Now, some people
Speaker 2: think that that's a positive thing and that psychology should
Speaker 2: utilize these things. I don't think it is. I think
Speaker 2: that's a trick. I think it's totally dark. You look
Speaker 2: at the history of the church for example, when the
Speaker 2: church would do its missionary work and they would find
Speaker 2: these indigenous tribes and so forth, they were doing this.
Speaker 2: It's almost always the same thing like that the Shamans
Speaker 2: who are have been the blast of their mind on
Speaker 2: these drugs and try to control the people through these drugs.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: They they're not These are not healthy people. We have
Speaker 2: this mistake and assumption that oh, all the innocent, the
Speaker 2: noble savage right of Rousseau or something. That's not true.
Speaker 2: These people are not the noble savages, so that that
Speaker 2: all needs to be I think debunked. And who's the
Speaker 2: woman who did the the famous anthropologist to Margaret Meat.
Speaker 2: Margaret Meat, her stuff is debunked too, that she.
Speaker 1: Was, Yeah, Chris, she was the spouse of great Greed
Speaker 1: Bateson who weaponized anthropology. Yeah, it was all done to
Speaker 1: exploit primitive people. Then the only problems they look at
Speaker 1: us as primitive, the general public is primitive being for
Speaker 1: being manipulated.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: I well back if you doctor Hans Uder, and we
Speaker 1: were talking about very thing actually, and he's talking about
Speaker 1: you and Cameron and his some of you and Cameron's
Speaker 1: research over there at the Alla Memorial Institute or to
Speaker 1: see if psychosis could be well, uh, it could spread
Speaker 1: like a disease, like a contagion.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: And well it's interesting because, like anything, if it could
Speaker 1: uh under the pretext of trying to contain the contagion,
Speaker 1: they like a buy weapon, they'd seek to weaponize it.
Speaker 1: How can you can you spread psychosis like a contagion
Speaker 1: through society? And I think they have and I think
Speaker 1: the serial killer, terrorism, these things fear is in a
Speaker 1: way doing that because people lose their critical faculties and
Speaker 1: that you can see that as a sort of a
Speaker 1: psychosis how people respond to these threats that were told exist.
Speaker 1: It's it is a certain psychosis mass communication. I mean
Speaker 1: christalpher for Simpson's book the uh the Science of Coercion,
Speaker 1: talks about the whole study of mass communication. It's refinement,
Speaker 1: which for mass manipulation. And this goes back to the
Speaker 1: Princeton Radio Project. In the world of the worlds and
Speaker 1: these things, you know, yeah, it's not there to enlighten
Speaker 1: or educate. And a lot of these these figures, I mean,
Speaker 1: whether they're they're put up there to inform us and
Speaker 1: educate us, they're stage actors, they're they're they're they're spooks,
Speaker 1: the s S agents like you know, you know, mm hmm, yeah.
Speaker 1: People have trust in these in these institutions. It's it's amazing,
Speaker 1: you know, out of ignurse. I guess I suppose, you know, right.
Speaker 2: And another thing too is you can't overlook the the
Speaker 2: the drug aspect of a lot of these killers. So
Speaker 2: a lot of these guys were drug addicts or are
Speaker 2: on drugs or.
Speaker 1: Were on drugs.
Speaker 2: So you know, like Manson for example, Manson was bombed
Speaker 2: out of his mind on LSD for for all these years. Uh,
Speaker 2: and you know he's not he doesn't even really seem
Speaker 2: to be president. Like I don't think that that guy,
Speaker 2: whoever he was originally that persona is gone. Yeah. So
Speaker 2: I think that also suggests again a connection to not
Speaker 2: just the counterculture and the sixties lifestyle or something like that,
Speaker 2: but or the hate Ashbury lifestyle, the flower child lifestyle.
Speaker 2: But you know, I think that suggests more is at work, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, because if you've got guys that have been
Speaker 2: through these institutions, the prisons, Vacaville, mental institutions, the juvenile institutions,
Speaker 2: and they've been given or on who knows what hallucinogens.
Speaker 2: I mean, I just I don't think that you can
Speaker 2: underestimate the intensity of what can be done through the
Speaker 2: chemical concoctions that can be made. I mean, you can,
Speaker 2: you know, especially back in the fifties and sixties, before
Speaker 2: people really knew what these drugs were and what they
Speaker 2: could do. I mean, I tend to think that there's
Speaker 2: probably a connection to the UFO phenomenon as well. This
Speaker 2: is just a speculation on my part, but you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of the experiences that people have on LSD
Speaker 2: or d M T or ayahuasca and all these different ellutions,
Speaker 2: they tend to speak like they're talking to aliens too, right,
Speaker 2: if they think they're they're communicating with the gods or
Speaker 2: the aliens. So it could also be the case, just
Speaker 2: throwing it out there, what if a lot of the
Speaker 2: people who think that they interacted with UFOs they could
Speaker 2: have been given drugs and it would it would be
Speaker 2: very easy to simulate or cause someone to believe that
Speaker 2: in the midst of a serious drug trip. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: that would be very easy to do, especially if you
Speaker 2: know your farmer brown or something in the fifties and
Speaker 2: you have no I do what LSD or iahwask Is,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? And uh, you know you're
Speaker 2: tested on and then you know, all you'd have to
Speaker 2: do is like turn a fan on outside and blink
Speaker 2: some lights, you know what I mean. Farmer Brown would
Speaker 2: think that that was a UFO. I mean literally, yeah,
Speaker 2: in the midst of and so then he comes on
Speaker 2: it comes out, Oh, I've seen I've seen the space visitors.
Speaker 2: They came to me last night. They I was out
Speaker 2: of my body, had out of experience, all of which
Speaker 2: all of which lines up with the LSD experience.
Speaker 1: That's a great read to. I mean, if you're gonna
Speaker 1: experiment on someone and just when you finish, when you
Speaker 1: finish with him, just create like an alien experience and
Speaker 1: he's totally discredited if he says he guess what happened
Speaker 1: to me, I was pro by aliens or something.
Speaker 2: And then I know or or or uh, you know
Speaker 2: Dave mentions in one of the cases, uh kids that
Speaker 2: were that were taking had been drugged as well.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And now if you're a child and you've been drugged
Speaker 2: or given these crazy drugs, these really intense ones like
Speaker 2: LSD or something, I mean, there's I think you would
Speaker 2: absolutely dissociate. And imagine if the person who molested you,
Speaker 2: I mean, they could be wearing a Mickey Mouse outfit,
Speaker 2: and you know, you could be saying you were molested.
Speaker 2: I'm not joking, by the way, you could be saying
Speaker 2: I was molested by Mickey Mouse. I was molested by
Speaker 2: somebody wearing an alien you know, I was mosted by aliens.
Speaker 2: It was just some pervert and alien suit. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: you have their immediate cover.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean using drugs to exploit people. I mean
Speaker 1: George Hunter White right operations at midnight Climax, using prostitutes
Speaker 1: to then film the Johns. And he's the one that
Speaker 1: the famous quote that you know I you know I
Speaker 1: what was that quote of his? I raped and murdered.
Speaker 1: I did it all on the under the cover of
Speaker 1: the American flag. Had a good time doing it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: This is a great quote from him talking about what
Speaker 1: he got away with under the cover of national national security.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. So it's was it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they this was operation they did this operation of
Speaker 1: midnight Climax that people drugged them and filled them having
Speaker 1: sex with prostitutes and who knows what else I mean here, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was I was a very minor missionary, actually a heretic.
Speaker 1: But I toiled wholeheartedly in the vineyards because it was fun, fun, fun,
Speaker 1: Or else could a red blooded American boy lie killed, cheat, steel,
Speaker 1: rape and pillage with the sanction the blessing of the
Speaker 1: Hall of the All Highest. George Hunter White who was
Speaker 1: a counter narcotics officer and also worked with the c
Speaker 1: i A. It was part of the early stages Jim
Speaker 1: Carlton operation Midnight Climax and that whole operation of Night Climax.
Speaker 1: They this was a they had these safe houses or
Speaker 1: in San Francisco.
Speaker 2: Well they just that they bought from the mom they
Speaker 2: got it from the mob. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then you know the sor as the drugs they
Speaker 1: went kind of with the Olsley Stanley and the Grateful
Speaker 1: Dead was the marketing angle for that of spreading, you know,
Speaker 1: seating the whole country with LSD, seeing what the reaction
Speaker 1: would be, and the rock festivals, festivals themselves. It's a
Speaker 1: money pop or woodstock And Dave mcgott made a point,
Speaker 1: then sixty nine was interesting year because you had the
Speaker 1: moon landing in July twentieth ninety sixty nine, you're the
Speaker 1: woodstock in August nine, sixty nine, the Manson killings in
Speaker 1: sixty nine. It's really all these and they're all syops,
Speaker 1: you know, and you can see how they're all being
Speaker 1: a related, how they react, how they would manipulate the
Speaker 1: country's emotions one way or the other. I mean, it
Speaker 1: really is amazing. And you see it from the broader picture, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, I mean, and it's it's very difficult to fathom.
Speaker 2: But then I but but when you read you know,
Speaker 2: secret societies and reprogram to kill you, you know, you
Speaker 2: can really get a better picture of how not only
Speaker 2: is it entirely possible, but that is, you know, the
Speaker 2: most plausible explanation for all this.
Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, so well, Jay, listen, I want
Speaker 1: to think I think anything else, I mean, you think
Speaker 1: we covered it or.
Speaker 2: I would like to mention the h the last section
Speaker 2: just because it's just so funny, bizarre and weird to me,
Speaker 2: and I've never heard anybody else mention this. But just
Speaker 2: the character of Jean Badell Bocassa, the puppet ye and
Speaker 2: who claimed him proclaimed himself emperor in nineteen seventy seven
Speaker 2: of Central African Republic, And what's weird about that? By
Speaker 2: the way I went. I went after I read this,
Speaker 2: I went and I watched a bunch of clips and
Speaker 2: documentaries on this guy. I want this one a whack up.
Speaker 2: But he liked to eat his people. He was victorious
Speaker 2: over so he would eat his enemies. And then he
Speaker 2: he fled to France. So a lot of funny the
Speaker 2: Iatola did France too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he't out in France too for a while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a while.
Speaker 2: A lot of people flee to France. But yeah, so
Speaker 2: you know, we think of cannibalism and these kinds of
Speaker 2: things as out of the realm of possibility, and nobody
Speaker 2: does that. But yeah, I think that again. You get
Speaker 2: people whacked out on drugs and they will eat people. Okay,
Speaker 2: that's my concluding salvo there.
Speaker 1: Oh, there was one interesting case they might remember.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: One of the later serial killers of the nineties was
Speaker 1: petering out. Was this character Joel Rifkin.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: You might remember him from the Seinfeld as a character
Speaker 1: named Joe Wifton and Seinfeld is a joke. He shared
Speaker 1: the name of a serial killer he carried killed a
Speaker 1: bunch of processuts up in the New York area.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Well, it turns out, yeah, he was an American Syrica
Speaker 1: nineth ninety four to two and three two hundred and
Speaker 1: three years in prison for murder murders of nine women
Speaker 1: between nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety three. He is
Speaker 1: believed to have killed seventeen victims between ninety nine nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three. New York City and the Long Island, New
Speaker 1: York area. Well, it's interesting is Rifkin often hired prostitutes
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn and Manhattan. He lived in East Meadow, a
Speaker 1: suburban town on Long Island. He was a landscaper for
Speaker 1: William Casey's widow.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, yeah, somebody somebody brought that up the other
Speaker 2: day on a YouTube video I did. Yeah. And also,
Speaker 2: don't forget Dahmer hanging out with no excuse me John
Speaker 2: Wayne Gacy. Well, Dahmer was able to get his high
Speaker 2: school class like the VIP tour of the Vice President's office,
Speaker 2: and then he was going to be an up and
Speaker 2: up and coming GOP guy. And then it was John WAYE.
Speaker 2: Gacy hanging out meeting Jimmy Carter's wife.
Speaker 1: That's right, just after having a conviction for child lasstation.
Speaker 1: He was already convicted sex offender, and he got the
Speaker 1: so he got the secret Service button, which usually means
Speaker 1: they're vetted, so which is even more inexplicable. That's just
Speaker 1: you know, I mean even more in expled what's interesting.
Speaker 1: And you mentioned he got the Dahmer got the tour
Speaker 1: of Walter Monder's office. I think it was nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: seven to nineteen seventy eight. Yeah, this may not have
Speaker 1: may not be connected at all, but if I recall
Speaker 1: my research, Walter Mondale sponsored a law, a federal law
Speaker 1: which gave bonuses for child Protective Service personnel when they
Speaker 1: get kids that are taken out of homes for abuse
Speaker 1: reasons supposedly, uh, and get him adopted. It's a federal law.
Speaker 1: Forget the name of the law itself. Okay, there is
Speaker 1: Georgia State senator I think it was was a Deborah
Speaker 1: Schaeffer who was exposed in the corruption and child Protective
Speaker 1: Service as there was a yes, remember a child trafficking ring.
Speaker 1: And part of the incentive for these agents that the
Speaker 1: child pictures was that federal law. They get like a
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars cash bonus. Each kid is removed from
Speaker 1: who that has adopted from foster care, which means that
Speaker 1: kid first has to be removed from a family and
Speaker 1: put in the foster care. And she said there was
Speaker 1: a child trafficking ring being operated under the cover of
Speaker 1: that of that service largely funded by the federal law.
Speaker 1: Walter Monduls, the Senator, was a sponsor of that of
Speaker 1: that bill. Wow, Okay, I don't know if that's connected
Speaker 1: at all to it, but it's interesting.
Speaker 2: To well, it makes sense. But hey, I have a
Speaker 2: couple of questions.
Speaker 1: And of course, Jeffrey Dahmer right going, who was involved
Speaker 1: in child sex, rape, murder and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, so, well, what you think about Dave's book.
Speaker 2: Do you agree with the thesis that a lot of
Speaker 2: the serial killer stuff is hyped up? I mean, I
Speaker 2: think that you know, there are contract hits, and there
Speaker 2: are these drug gangs, and there is m S thirteen.
Speaker 2: That's a real thing. But I mean, do you think
Speaker 2: that do you think do you think the Damer thing,
Speaker 2: for example, was exaggerated or do you think that it
Speaker 2: was you know, the way they told it.
Speaker 1: That's interesting.
Speaker 2: You think he had, you know, bodies in the freezer
Speaker 2: and stuff.
Speaker 1: I see no reason. I see no reason to implicitly
Speaker 1: trust with the news we reported about that that could
Speaker 1: all be bs right, and the idea again that gets
Speaker 1: into the whole reason why that gets to the Mica
Speaker 1: Hoffman's thesis. These these people may not be as spectaculars
Speaker 1: as they think they're there aspect spectaculing the way that
Speaker 1: is gruesome as we're told, because again we're dealing with
Speaker 1: the media which hesitant sensationalism and of its in and
Speaker 1: of itself. But we'll get into what Michael Hoffin says
Speaker 1: about the we're all seeing the pews of the electronic media,
Speaker 1: and we're all taking this in and just to reporting
Speaker 1: us as gruesomeness, gruesomenessness, a gruesomeness, what's the word, the
Speaker 1: gruesome details is going to have that very effect on us,
Speaker 1: you know this, we'll talk about it, and has that
Speaker 1: effect that's sort of a degrading of society in general.
Speaker 2: So what would you say, like in Henry Lucas case,
Speaker 2: what do you think is the most we think is
Speaker 2: most likely that went down that they just kind of
Speaker 2: grouped a whole bunch of unsolved ones.
Speaker 1: I don't see one man, you know, being guilty, you know,
Speaker 1: being a bit'll pull off hundreds of murders without he
Speaker 1: himself getting killed at some point. It's not easy to
Speaker 1: kill people. I mean it's right, I mean, you can
Speaker 1: get away with a few times, but killing a human
Speaker 1: being is difficult. Human being fights back, so it has
Speaker 1: to be I mean a group of people. I mean
Speaker 1: a trained killer can do it.
Speaker 2: I guess right.
Speaker 1: Uh. But you know again, I think I think that
Speaker 1: that's kind of uh. I think Henry Lucas there was
Speaker 1: there to close a lot of again, to close the books.
Speaker 1: One thing that David mcgot didn't include in the books
Speaker 1: that Kurd afterwards was the the d C sniper case.
Speaker 2: John Muhammad is bt K after the book too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, after the book as well, he talks about it
Speaker 1: because the interview, Yeah, yeah, in the interview, but the
Speaker 1: I was I'm in the area where the d C
Speaker 1: sniper was. In fact, that there's a lady killed just
Speaker 1: down the street from my brother's house right now.
Speaker 2: There were news stories that he that he left the
Speaker 2: death card, which is the Special Forces card.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I remember that. And then also the fact
Speaker 1: that the police chief Ountain, Moncolm mc County Moose, apparently
Speaker 1: was at the same base as John Allen muhammed out
Speaker 1: in Oregon. And that's it's weird. Remember that weird message
Speaker 1: he left for him, that cryptic messages and on the
Speaker 1: phone he called these comes out on to the police station.
Speaker 1: Weird leaves us. It was almost like it's triggering And
Speaker 1: the next day I think he's caught in the sleeping
Speaker 1: in the car or something.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, yeah, Oh was there ever a reasoning for
Speaker 2: why he was doing that.
Speaker 1: They concocted some sort of idea where he was going out,
Speaker 1: he was gonna go after his wife and then create
Speaker 1: a bunch of murders to cover it up, which goes
Speaker 1: in that haystacking uh thesis. But they think he again
Speaker 1: the media went and said, well, you know, they're probably
Speaker 1: responsible for these murders too. Actually did that? They shore
Speaker 1: like all these different murders and different states. How John
Speaker 1: Allen Hamma is probably responsi for those murders as well.
Speaker 1: But he he himself had unexplained income. He traveled, kids,
Speaker 1: went to private school, he went on ski trips, went
Speaker 1: to the went to the went to the Caribbean several times.
Speaker 2: Oh, he was probably a contract.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's what it sounds like. Uh and uh,
Speaker 1: it's you know, given the time that happened, it was
Speaker 1: the fall of two thousand and two, a year after
Speaker 1: nine to eleven, and I remember the time thinking what
Speaker 1: the heck's going on? And these weird things were Actually
Speaker 1: they actually said that look for a white panel van.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that.
Speaker 1: Now. If you drive on the highways around here, I
Speaker 1: think every tenth car is a white panel van. What's
Speaker 1: the I mean.
Speaker 2: So that just makes everybody freak.
Speaker 1: Out, freak out, Yeah, And so that gets in this
Speaker 1: whole idea of you know, holdings to the serial killers.
Speaker 1: I remember joking at the time it was like getting
Speaker 1: gasoline pulling people like ducking make my wife go out
Speaker 1: and pump the gas. Hey, honey, can you get at
Speaker 1: this time?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I want to live.
Speaker 2: And it's just as kind of silly as the terrorist story, right, because.
Speaker 1: You your chances of being a victim ian more likely
Speaker 1: getting hit by a car or getting in a car accident.
Speaker 1: We're getting sniped. But again it's the psychological effect. And
Speaker 1: of course within those killings was this one lady I
Speaker 1: think her name is Barbara Franklynn was an FBI agent
Speaker 1: who was involved in the weapons and mass destruction cover
Speaker 1: up or something okay, and she was gunned down outside
Speaker 1: of home depot so that's an interesting case there. But
Speaker 1: again it's one of the other things. If you look
Speaker 1: at all these serial killers, the idea of you being
Speaker 1: killed by a serial killer, the odds, oh really you better,
Speaker 1: you more more likely get struck by lightning. And but
Speaker 1: again the psychological effect. I think David Berkerwitz, the Son
Speaker 1: of Sam, even the official narrative six six eight victims,
Speaker 1: six fatalities and how many how many homicides are there
Speaker 1: are there in New York City every year?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly. Another thing too. I remember I was reading
Speaker 2: some of the pop stuff, like Psychology Today articles a
Speaker 2: few years ago about quote serial killers, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's a very pc and it's like the serial
Speaker 2: killers of middle aged white male who wears the the
Speaker 2: wire rim glasses and he's yeah, yeah, very very neat,
Speaker 2: tucks his shirt in and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: And I'm sitting here thinking, well, actually, you can go
Speaker 2: look it up. Just the mainstream story. At least, there's
Speaker 2: quite a few female serial killers that are never talked about,
Speaker 2: but there are they do exist. There are also black
Speaker 2: guys who were serial killers that are not talked about.
Speaker 2: So actually that the I would say that the there
Speaker 2: are you know Latino killers who are pretty vicious, especially
Speaker 2: MS thirteen gang types. So the idea that this is
Speaker 2: like the white male, middle aged white male is the
Speaker 2: serial killer is pretty ludicrous. And I also tend to
Speaker 2: argue too that I think women who have no compunction
Speaker 2: and have had, you know, five abortions, I don't see
Speaker 2: why that's not a serial killer either.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well that goes back to what the Dave
Speaker 1: McGowan said about the whole idea of by profiling that's
Speaker 1: there to mislead the public about what the serial killer is. Thing.
Speaker 1: There's aren't these organic guys that go out and you know,
Speaker 1: they have this obsession and they're you know, like in
Speaker 1: Slians of the Lambs, was going after like something, yeah,
Speaker 1: like Cladish.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hunting down you know, doctor lector. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1: The myth is they're they're actually on a mission, and
Speaker 1: the same way in Phoenix, where yeah, they're doing a
Speaker 1: lot of killing, but there's a reason for it and
Speaker 1: they may they may just they may enjoy it like
Speaker 1: in Phoenix. Uh, but there's they're they're they have controllers
Speaker 1: and the same thing you talk about these M S
Speaker 1: thirteen guys. Uh where Yeah, there's a cult element to it,
Speaker 1: because that's how you organize. Hey, that's how you motivate
Speaker 1: and motivate and control people. But they have handles there,
Speaker 1: and they're they're murdering for a reason, right, They're murdering,
Speaker 1: murdering for a reason. A lot of the black crime
Speaker 1: they're staring black crime rates in the nineteen sixties. At
Speaker 1: first glance, that may have appeared to be you know,
Speaker 1: disorganized or or sporadic, but it turns out that a
Speaker 1: lot of these these gang black gangs were being funded
Speaker 1: by the by the federal government through the community Black grants.
Speaker 1: And I believe it was revealed in the Church Committee
Speaker 1: hearings in the nineteen seventies that Sergeant Schreiver, when he
Speaker 1: ran the the Office of econ Economic Opportunity uh gave
Speaker 1: a close to a million dollars to this group called
Speaker 1: the black Stone Rangers, a criminal gang in Chicago, I think.
Speaker 1: And what the function of those groups was to more
Speaker 1: or less just to go out create mayhem, create create
Speaker 1: a lot of crime, to chase out the whites. And
Speaker 1: this is all part of this program to destroy the
Speaker 1: ethnic neighborhoods, the white ethnic neighborhoods. And encouraged the creation
Speaker 1: the diaspor into them into suburbia. So this is all
Speaker 1: part of a sort of a strategy tension and destabilization.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that movie Circario, right, I mean, that's with
Speaker 1: that James Brow character. He tells the lady FBI agent
Speaker 1: that they're just down there, you know, you know, shaking
Speaker 1: some treaties during trouble to see what happens. Of course,
Speaker 1: what that really means on the ground is they're going
Speaker 1: in there creating shootouts on the streets, making life a
Speaker 1: living hell for the inhabitants down there in Mexico. And
Speaker 1: you know, in your war as they could care less.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: That's the same way that perhaps criminal activities such as
Speaker 1: drug drug dealing, importation drugs in the certain neighborhoods in
Speaker 1: the United States, it could be all part of a
Speaker 1: sort of a gentrification program.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: That's twenty years in the offense.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's kind of what.
Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with uh And that was
Speaker 1: I mean that one of my points that this was
Speaker 1: this was this type of strategy was was documented and
Speaker 1: improven in the sixties with the Black student Rangers. You've
Speaker 1: mentioned how the the the Black Panthers.
Speaker 2: Were radicalized and Richard Aoki.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then taken out when they murdered Freddie Hampton
Speaker 1: because they got out of control. They've they've done their job,
Speaker 1: the shelf off had expired, and then they take them out.
Speaker 1: And when they're taken out, they're used as propaganda for
Speaker 1: the police state.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: In the nineteen seventies you had the Simils Liberation Army, right,
Speaker 1: which grew out of Vaucaville and Colton Westbrook, and.
Speaker 2: And that that with Charles Whittmore leads to the creation
Speaker 2: of the swat team and federalization of local police.
Speaker 1: The police force. Say that whole shootout, which seems which
Speaker 1: is probably staged. There's some question about Weatherman right, about
Speaker 1: the growing out of rests and why Billy Aires was
Speaker 1: never read. You know what guilty as hell for as
Speaker 1: a bird was this quote? Yeah, you know the government
Speaker 1: you know, technicality, we can't convict him. And that's a
Speaker 1: statement of course. He's he's lived a charmed.
Speaker 2: Existence, right, with a whole bunch of foundation funding his stuff.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So I mean, the the silly killer these
Speaker 1: this fits right into this. It's the all destabilization and
Speaker 1: then psychological warfare bundled in with maybe targeted killings and
Speaker 1: drug running and you know, it's, uh, it's what they do.
Speaker 1: Part of understanding this, I think is is probably it
Speaker 1: goes back to maybe go back to maybe Doug Valentine's
Speaker 1: book in the Phoenix Program and thinking how would that
Speaker 1: be applied domestically And that's just how it would be
Speaker 1: applied domestically here, and how it's an influenced domestic policy
Speaker 1: with the Department of Homeland Security, the Fusion centers, the
Speaker 1: idea of you know, manipulating the media these things. How again,
Speaker 1: how it's then how it's projected through these movies, through
Speaker 1: electronic media and promoted. And your your question of regarding
Speaker 1: or some of these stories exagger the groos, you know,
Speaker 1: the gruesome details. Are they presented as you know? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right. I mean there's no reason even to you know,
Speaker 1: you know, to assume that that's even correct. It's just
Speaker 1: it just goes it's for our consumption, you know, good.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Yeah, It's it's very Hollywood, isn't it.
Speaker 1: And it's like that, and it's like you know, like
Speaker 1: the Serira killar area with the heads propped up, I
Speaker 1: have to buy the dining.
Speaker 2: Room at the end of seven where yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: who is it, Brad Brad Pitt sees his girlfriend's head
Speaker 2: or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, decapitated wife's head or decapitated air right, yeah, in
Speaker 1: the in the box there and all that. So yeah,
Speaker 1: so well let's say, yeah, well, yeah, it was a
Speaker 1: great talk. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I mean, your analysis
Speaker 1: was a good program to kill. Is there anything else?
Speaker 2: No, I think that that's good. I mean there could
Speaker 2: be a whole probably, yeah, there could be a whole
Speaker 2: separate discussion of the secret societies and psychological warfare. But yeah,
Speaker 2: both of the books dubtail.
Speaker 1: Well again, the serial killer phenomenon tends to the coincide
Speaker 1: with a psychological warfare. The post war era sort of
Speaker 1: a well, the Vietnam more, the economic problems, the trauma,
Speaker 1: societal of destabilization. The whole thing was sizon to be
Speaker 1: turning upside down. And yeah, the old rules didn't apply anymore.
Speaker 1: Families were breaking up in the hot you know, increasing
Speaker 1: divorce rate, the yeah, all this stuff, Uh, it's all
Speaker 1: part of it. It was all part of it. And
Speaker 1: see it in the in that context, and.
Speaker 2: I think it's important to point out too, that it
Speaker 2: seems to be consistent phase, logical phases and steps. So,
Speaker 2: like I was saying at the beginning, and the pop culture,
Speaker 2: you get business plans or phases or steps of what's
Speaker 2: considered revolution and counter establishment. You know, back then it
Speaker 2: was smoking dope and listening to the doors and sleeping
Speaker 2: around free love. Now it's fight the establishment patriarchy's genders
Speaker 2: that they've imposed on you. Yeah, that's the phases of
Speaker 2: the degradation, and.
Speaker 1: You couldn't get yeah, I'm sorry, as well.
Speaker 2: As passing from Oh, the sixties are a revolution against
Speaker 2: you know, the nineteen forties and fifties corporate man and
Speaker 2: the you know, the company man, and we're going to
Speaker 2: be free from all that, and we're going to be
Speaker 2: anti war. And then it becomes the serial killer phase, right,
Speaker 2: and then it becomes the war on terror phase. Right,
Speaker 2: So there's there's no more serial killers, but there's all
Speaker 2: the terrorists everywhere.
Speaker 1: And then there's also the health, the health scares like
Speaker 1: the AIDS crisis, AIDS hysteria.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's a great one, which is mentioned as
Speaker 2: an actual psychological war preparation.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, for that very purpose to further the great society,
Speaker 1: the hyper sexualized society, which is a big part of this,
Speaker 1: by the way, because the hyper sexualization you get the
Speaker 1: uh well, you get the violence, you get the serial killer.
Speaker 1: Sexual sex is a big thing with the serial killer.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, a sex deaf cult is a good way
Speaker 2: to put it in.
Speaker 1: And it's funny how you remove sex from procreation, you
Speaker 1: immediately start.
Speaker 2: To use it becomes connected to death. Death, yeah right,
Speaker 2: the les petite more the little death. Yeah, as the
Speaker 2: French term for organizasms.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Wow, I didn't know that. Well, okay, well, Jake, listen,
Speaker 1: I kept you a long time on to thank you.
Speaker 1: I know you've been very busy lady, and you've been
Speaker 1: very generous with your time. I'm really appreciated it. Thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, And you'll be headed out soon back to
Speaker 1: do some more filming. So I wish you, wish you
Speaker 1: safe travels. Appreciate that, and uh we'll talk later on
Speaker 1: maybe you're uh later in the spring, early in the summer.
Speaker 1: See whatever comes up.