Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Our Interesting Times. It's my
pleasure to have Jay Dyer back on the show. Well, Jay,
how you doing.
Speaker 2: Been great time. Always glad to be on Our Interesting
Times because our times are interesting.
Speaker 1: Very interesting in the worst kind of a way. And
of course you are the proprietor of Jays Analysis jaysnalysis
dot com. You're the author of So Teror Hollywood Sex
Cults and Symbolism in Film, And I understand you are
taping a very important series of I guess television shows
for the Guide Network. Been very busy, so I'm very
appreciative your time with me tonight. Thank you, And I
guess you're finishing up later on this week with those seat.
Speaker 2: Thank you for those kind words. Yeah, we've finished eleven
episodes and we'll finish six seventeen or eighteen by the
end of this week. And yeah, it's gonna be a
lot of really really cool stuff movie a movie analysis
kind of Ciskel and Ebers style show that really doesn't exist.
I don't think there's another Cisco Ebert style show that
that does film analysis, you know the way that I
do it, and it kind of linked up well with
the style of Jay Weedener the way he does film analysis.
You know, we have we have a good chemistry, a
good rapport, so we kind of just go back and
forth and give our thoughts and and and impressions of
these seminal films and shows and kind of dissect them,
you know. And it ties in well with Dave mcgallan's
work a lot of the stuff that we're going to
be talking about tonight, and we referenced, you know, Dave
quite a bit. You know, my work kind of builds
on that, as well as Michael Hoppins worked too. So
it's it's gonna be neat. It's it's gonna be I think,
very high quality. It's not it's not stupid, it's not fluffy.
It's going to be pretty hardcore. But it all would
be a lot of satire and comedy and you know,
joking around. Hopefully too. They may edit out on my
Maybe they sounded like they were laughing in the control room,
but I can tell, so maybe maybe they're laughing at
how bad it was, And I don't know. I hope
my impersonation, you know, don't get edited out, but they
may end up on the cutting room floor.
Speaker 1: Sorry, what's the name of that show.
Speaker 2: It'll be called Hollywood Decoded.
Speaker 1: Hollywood you code it, okay, And that's going to air
on the on the Guide network, and people, I guess
subscribe that I don't.
Speaker 2: Have to be by subscription. But as I understand, you
know this is it's anywhere streaming service and it's also
on some cable and satellite, so if you have Amazon
Prime and that kind of stuff, you can get it too.
Speaker 1: So oh excellently I do. Okay, so I can watch it.
Speaker 2: It should be on all those Yeah, okay, I'm pretty
sure that's right. I'm pretty sure Amazon has Gaya, but
many to check on that. But but yeah, so we've
got some of the some good stuff lined up for
season one. We've got David Lynch, and we've got some Kubrick,
and we've got some Ridley Scott, Blade Runner and the
Alien franchise and some X Files. Uh so there's a
there's a good lineup and then a lot more to come,
you know. If this does well, we'll do another another
two seasons on top of that.
Speaker 1: So great, And of course a lot of those movies
I do after watching or listening reading your analysis, listening
to your analysis, you can go re watch some of
the movies that Mayson little Strange, particularly David Lynch films,
and you can really there's your analysis really helps.
Speaker 2: And a lot of people were saying that, they say,
when they get in the book, they kind of read
my book and then they watched the movie and then
read the chapter and watch the movie. So it's you know,
it ends up being kind of a fun, fun thing,
and I think the show will be too, because we
have clips that we're playing too, so it's not just
sitting you know, me sitting there talking with Jay Weedner.
It's also you know, important sections of the film and yeah,
you know the images and the scenes and what's going on.
Speaker 1: So your analysis of Ernest goes the campus particularly enlightening
there was.
Speaker 2: I wrote that as a joke, and then I had
people who they didn't think it was a joke and
they were like, do you really think this is about this?
And it says satire on there.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's great, and of course, listeners here if you
want to support Jay regularly, you can support his website
for five a month, sixty dollars a year. That's the
regular thing. Support his research. Okay, Well, tonight, you've did
a an excellent analysis of Dave McGowan's Program to Kill.
We've talked touched on it before in the past, and
our previous talks, I think our first conversation we talked
a lot about that, but just touched on it, and
you did a almost a two hour analysis of it,
and of course I wanted to talk about that in
light of the maybe Michael Hoffman's analysis of the serial
killer phenomenon, particularly the ritualistic aspect of it and the
alchemical process that he believes that's involved with it. A
broader issue of sort of the societal degradation debasement that
occurred in the nineteen sixties and seventies into the eighties.
Of course, in the context of the Vietnam War, the
development of feminism, and all the psychological warfare that the
American people were being have been subjected to since the
Second World War. So, hey, how do you want how
do you go on dive into it?
Speaker 2: Well, I guess I could point out that in my
own experience, Uh, you know, I didn't grow up during
that period. I grew up in the eighties, so I
didn't know much about that era except through my dad.
My dad was into led Zappelin in the doors, and
you know, he would always play those albums, and that
was really the only experience I had of it until I,
you know, got to be older and started reading and
getting into history and trying to make sense of what
had been happening, especially in the United States. And then
I think in my twenties, about twenty four or five,
I read Hoffman's book and that was a big piece
of the puzzle for me. It was a big awakening
stage for me. I think I've got my society Psychological.
My copy is dated in two thousand and six. So
he really opened up, I guess, a new way to
look at things, and in a broadway. So he's really
tying in the ideas of Hollywood and mass culture, pop culture,
with the military industrial complex and with secret societies in
the occult and you know how the Pentagon used the
psychological warfare and ritual crimes and how it all kind
of connects us. So I think he's maybe one of
the best figures that you could point to that kind
of laid out a more coherent, unified field theory of conspiracy,
because you know, I think prior to I mean, maybe
you can find somebody I don't know, but I mean
when I think back to conspiracy texts written prior to
two thousand and one, which is when he published his book,
you know, you would get books that might deal with
a certain topic, like you know, there would be books
on the Templars, and there would be a book on
the Masons, and very limited subject matter. But I think
Hoffman's book is a step towards meta analysis, where he's
really trying to put all these pieces together, and he
ties in, you know, the theological aspects too, like making
sense of what happened in the Catholic Church and Vatican
two and beyond, and it just made a lot more sense,
I think. And so I was and I was a
traditional Roman Catholic at the time, attending the Latin Mass
and so forth. So so Hoffen had a big impact
on me. And then I realized that he was kind
of the first person I read that did kind of
an esotery movie analysis. So he kind of gave me
the idea, or I got the idea to do that
style from his analysis of conspiracy theory. He read a
book or an essay on that a long time ago
that's kind of famous. So so it's just it's a
gray all around book introduction. It's usually what I tell
people who are new to the topic to read as
an introduction. And I mean, I'm not sure where to
start with it, just because he talks about so many
things too. But Dave's book is a great companion to
that book because they're kind of in the same vein.
They do overlap at times. Even though the focus of
Program to Kill is more just on ritual crime, he's
not really dealing with you know, theology or history per se.
But one of the things that Dave starts out with
that really impressed me in his book was that he
he looks like he read most of the material that's
published dealing with you know, MK ultra and mind control.
So you know, there's Jose Delgado's Physical Control of the Mind,
and there's Donald Bain's Control of Kenny Jones and Walter
Bowart's book Operation mind Control and John Marxist book and
I've read a lot of these, but I haven't read
all of them. And I've read a lot of these two.
And so you know, Hoppins book kind of kicked me
off on that eleven or twelve years ago, and then
I read Jay Stevens's book Storming Heaven, which is also
kind of along the same path as Weird scenes inside
the Canyon, but not a little more water down, a
little more mainstream. And I read that a long time ago,
and that kind of got me thinking, you know, that
maybe a lot of what we were told about the
sixties counter culture revolution was not what was really going on,
and that maybe that wasn't real. And I had my
own experiences of going to concerts and you know, being
around so called hippies and that people of that counterculture mindset,
because you know, you start noticing as you get older
that it's really just different costumes and dressings that people
are wearing who are being counterculture. Right, So it's like
the counterculture of my period when I was, you know,
eighteen nineteen, it was Nirvana, it was Pearl Jam, it
was alternative music, it was you know, that was just
the next phase of the cultural dressing. And you start
to realize that a lot of this stuff is not organic.
It's actually top down. It's it's corporate, it's it's sold, uh,
and that's it runs contrary to what the whole ethos
is is that it's supposed to be an organic counter
culture movement. And then I think, you know, just as
you get older, you read more and you learn more,
and you realize that, uh, you know, the people who
run society are not idiots. They're they're very adept, and
they're masters of the scientific, scientific process, a scientific technique
of mass psychology. So I know I would even still
recommend probably Jim Keats's book Mass Control. It's it's a
good introduction to this topic, and it fits well with
Michaels Hoffin's book and Dave McGowan's book. But anyway, just
to kind of set the stage, you know, I just
started diving into all these books, and you know, there
really is a dearth of evidence to suggest that uh
wait is that the right word. I'm kind of I'm
kind of tired. Amount of earth is dearth?
Speaker 1: Dearth be a lack of or ending of it.
Speaker 2: There is an excess, excuse me, an abundance, an abundance
of evident to suggest that that the counterculture movements are essentially,
you know, engineered, and that's that's the main point here.
And you said, well, how could that be? Why would
that be? Well, when you look at what the Pentagon
was studying, what the military was studying back into the thirties,
forties and fifties what the advertising agencies were studying, and
it was mass psychology, mass sociology, uh, and the mind
of man. And if you could master the mind of man,
then you could master the mass mind. And so all
of these studies and all this research that the establishment
put into mind control and physical control of the mind
and all this kind of stuff. Uh, it manifested itself
in all these very bizarre things, like you know, one
of the in Keltry doctors, doctor Jolli and West, gives
a whole bunch of LSD to elephants just to see
what it what it'll do. Uh. And you can go
on on YouTube and still see a lot of these
this old archive footage of some of these Stanford research
experiments too, where they're giving giving LSD to all these
animals and monkeys and h seeing what it does. And uh,
well you can watch the spider webs that were created
by spiders that were given LSD and how they're all
messed up and their webs don't work, and so that
I mean, they really perfected. I think the the chemical
approach to biological warfare is what this amounts and that's
why it was classed eventually under a biological warfare. So
so that's what impressed me about Dave's book, and having
now read a lot of these books that he references,
I think I have a better, a much better picture
of how the the studies of multiple personality slash disassociative
identity disorder was of central import along with hypnotism for
so many decades. And I think that you could argue
that this is probably perfected. And of course, you know,
Colin Ross has a lot of lectures and books that
deal with the same topics too, so I think there's
definitely something to this. Now there's a lot of disinformation
that says that there's no such thing as you know,
fractured personalities and this kind of stuff, But I mean,
it makes a lot more sense if this is true. Now.
I've had my own experiences with LSD when I was seventeen,
so I know firsthand what happens. I had a bat
trip the first time I did it, and so I
understand the potentials and how it can cause multiple or
fractured personality. Now, I mean, I don't think that I
have alternate personality or anything like that. But what I'm
saying is that I know the process of what happens
in throughout the acid trip, so I can see how
these kinds of things occur. And if you read John
Marx's book, he talks about that too. He talks about
how they had actually studied the trip process and how
it could cause dissociation. And then you get these popularizers,
right who go out into the pop culture who sell
it like Timothy Leary. Now, Timothy Leary attaches all this
esoteric stuff to it, and this is where you get
the whole idea of promoting the archaic revival and indigenous
religious traditions and all this kind of stuff attached to
LSD and the promotion of hallucinogens. And I don't think
we need to rehearse the Henry Loose Time.
Speaker 1: We all know that's yeah, yeah, Time nine Life magazine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, You've done plenty of interviews on that. And so
you know, you start to notice all these things and
all these these puzzle pieces that just don't make sense
to be a counterculture revolution, you know. And of course
that's that's the thesis of weird Scenes inside the Canyon,
you know. And I think he argues as well in there.
That's our culture movement to whatever degrees. Maybe the anti
war movement, you know, was a organic and legitimate was
eventually taken over and turned into just kind of this
Dionyssian bas passion type of thing where you know, Jim
Morrison's up there like having sex with the speaker on
the stage while he's bombed out of his mind on drugs. Right,
it just turns into turns it to total total chaos basically.
And and this chaos and dissociation I think you can
see it reflected in the artwork that was promoted like
Jackson Pollock and Andy Warhol, and you know a lot
of these CIA aided characters, these Frankfurt school type characters,
and so to boil it all down, I mean, you
really have. It's what Adorno talked about, you know, from
the frankfur School, that that if you promote inversion and
the perversion, you could really destroy the social order. And
these lackos, of these sickos really believed that you had
to destroy the social order to fix things. So that's
that's I think the setting for for the sixties. It
was a whole bunch of things that was psychological warfare.
It was a lot of large scale testing of cults
of alternative lifestyles quote unquote, You've you know, you've done
talks with with John Adams. I've done interviews with John Adams,
and he talks a lot about how California was kind
of set up to be this mecca for the for
the alternative lifestyle, you know, as well as promoting kind
of the Silicon Valley military industrial complex, aerospace stuff, you know,
up towards Sacramento. You know, if you didn't like that,
you could go down to La or San Francisco or
hate Ashbury or something, get involved in whatever cult you wanted, right,
So it's really you just have this cornucopia of test
tubes I think going on throughout the sixties. And I
think that LSD was given on a mass scale on purpose.
I think that was by design absolutely. You know, when
you look into the history of the drug war, you
start to realize why that would be very plausible, especially
given the importation of cocaine and crack for you know,
the black neighborhoods and stuff like that. We figure out,
but that's all true. So it just makes more it
makes a lot more sense that the culture is controlled
and studied and created much more than it is, you know,
any kind of organic process. And so that's the setting,
that's the zeitgeist for both Hoffmann's book and Dave McGowan's book.
Speaker 1: Yes You Have a Program to Kill. And now the
way it's structured is he introduces the book first with
organized elite pedophilia, the pediocricy I think, and I think
the first eighty or ninety pages talks about the Mark
de trou Fair and these various exposure of pedophilic networks
and we all just in recent news and just in
our research, alternative research into the deep state and some
of the intrigues of the intelligence agencies, the function that
that serves that child, that human trafficking, particularly with blackmail
and human compromise.
Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting too is that both of these books,
Hawfins's book was written in two thousand and one and
Dave's books written in two thousand and four. And here
we are. You know, it's twenty seventeen. And I had
hawfins book a long time ago, and I would give
this book out. People were calling me crazy. They would
hand it back to me. I read the first chapter.
Here take this back, yeah.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that.
Speaker 2: I'm sure Dave's I'm sure Dave's book was received the
same way. I only read, you know, for Gom to
Kill fairly recently. But yeah, but the point, my point
is just that look at how much of this has
been vindicated, you know, in the last few years. So
these are prescient books. And for me, you know, I mean,
I don't want to be vindicated on this awful dark stuff,
but you know, it makes me realize that I'm not
actually crazy. So all the people who you know called
me nuts over the last fifteen years or whatever, well.
Speaker 1: I get that. I say, when people call someone calls
me crazy, I said, no, you're just ignorant. Yeah, then
they get offenders. Will you just called me nuts, which
is worse? Yeah, right, you just don't understand what they
don't understand it.
Speaker 2: I'm not mean, I don't, right, I don't mean to
be arrogant, but I mean, ninety nine percent of the
time when when people are operating that way, they've not
read any of this stuff. No, they don't have any
working knowledge of this material.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's yeah, it's someone and you're you don't
have the patience or the election to be tutored on
this stuff. So I'm not gonna waste my time, you know,
just do the research, come back in five years, and
then we'll talk about it. And that's what it takes.
That's the problem is there's no substitute for for understanding
these things other than just doing the research, reading the
material and thinking about it and also holding out that,
you know, there are some some of these things that
there's nothing wrong with saying I don't know, I don't
know for sure. You know, there's bias against there's a
bias towards certainty, and some of these things we don't
have certainty uh with. We have to infer, have to
you know, uh speculate uh based on on the on
the information we have, you know, and that's only natural.
I don't know. What people expect, they get. They create
a usually high standard. It's selective too, because they'll they'll
accept that the narratives and other things not any without
any evidence, or just because they're told something, you know,
because Walter Kronkake told them something.
Speaker 3: Or they're you know, yes, Brian Williams, there's a brilliant Yeah,
go ahead, there's a brilliant, brilliant point that Dave makes
in The Program to Kill at one point where he says, yeah,
we're supposed to believe that the CIA never really got
anywhere within k Ultra.
Speaker 2: It didn't really teach them anything about mind control and
how to brainwash people, and you know, they just kind
of let this go after the hearings and all this stuff. However,
we are at the same time supposed to believe, from
the official sources that all of these cult leaders have
perfected the process of my control. Right, so it's a
double Jim Jones, David Press and Jim Jones are masters
of mind control, but the CIA and Pentagon, they just
don't have a clue on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, with an unlimited budget technology at their disposal. On Yeah,
that's I mean, that was the the subtext or the
the argument of Charles Manson's conviction. He makes this very
point is the assumption of my control on the part
of Charles Manson. Mm hmm, because he apparently, you know,
the the the the killers uh went out, you know,
and performed the massacres and they're convicted, but they're they're there.
We were to understand that they were they were they
were controlled zombies and the Saint Charles Manson, who according
the official narrative, was never at any any of the
scenes was convicted, right, And it makes no sense from
a legal stuff, yet they did it.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, that's yeah exactly. And you know, I
just liked the the approach because, you know, Dave's willing
to he's willing to look at the arguments of the skeptics.
And one of the problems is that, you know, skeptics
who said that there's not any substance to disassociate of
identity disorder or to any of this stuff, is that
they generally don't take into account all of the abundance
of for example, material in Dave's book. Right, So you'll
get these people who try to debunk things, but they
never deal with, you know, like the totality of the
three hundred and fifty pages of this book. You know what,
what what about all this? Right? I mean, it's I mean,
I can I understand people being skeptical, and certainly not
every time somebody claims something it's true, but that's not
a sound argument to debunk the whole idea of you know,
maybe we don't under understand everything about the psyche. You
know that I've done a lot of reading and a
lot of research into that. And you know, I don't
think that the so called establishment really understands or knows
what the psyche. I mean, have perfected a lot of
techniques when it comes to entrainment and psychic driving and
these different you know, mind control techniques, but that doesn't
mean that they really know what they're dealing with. Because
you know, Saint Paul's the who knows the spirit of
who knows the soul of a man, but the spirit
which is in him, right, so even our souls and
our spirits are somewhat mysterious even to us. So I
don't think the establishment has every everything locked down on
what man is or what man's soul is, precisely because
most of these people have completely naturalistic presuppositions, so they
don't think there is a soul. So you know, this
is why everything's treated with chemicals and so forth. But anyway,
you know, he just provides a bunch of arguments for
you know, people in the establishment, even saying there's more
going on here. These people aren't faking. You can look
at experiments through hypnotism. Hypnotism has been study studied for
eighty years, so you know, obviously they've made some kind
of progress there. Freud talks about ritual abuse, and then
you have, you know, the suspicious, obviously suspicious fact of
the False Memory Syndrome Foundation being founded by these CIA
people who are bold and things like child drafting and
child born and stuff.
Speaker 1: That's right, it's a what's his name? What was his name?
It was morn Orn or something he was or was
MK ultra scientist.
Speaker 2: A bunch of stuff on that. But yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Think wasn't also Jolly West involved with them too?
Speaker 2: That sounds right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, okay, false Memory Foundation. Now, for a
point of clarification, Dave mcgown's thesis, uh well in Program
to Kill and also Dovetails are it's a good follow
up to him to his or actually preceded it, but
to his Laura Canyon book, because Laura Cannon. He points
out that the this dizzy array of the popular some
of the most popular musical bands of the nineteen sixties
having connections to military and intelligence, with the theory that
the music itself was weaponized the purposes of culture creation
and sort of steering the culture in a certain direction,
undermining the anti war movement. The manipulation of the youth culture.
The creation of the youth culture was preceded by a
decade I think in the early fifties. In Program to Kill,
he says, he provides, He puts forth, That puts forth
the theory that the arrival of the serial killer phenomena
on the American landscape wasn't an organic development or an
accidental development coming out of America's post war you know,
the environment of prosperity, youth culture, a sexual revolution. This
was a plan. This was a weaponized sort of a
domestic application of the Phoenix program, right, and also an
attempt at maybe an update or a modification of murder
Incorporated to carry out certain amount of hits and you know,
and also an attempt to shape the culture, to create
a culture of fear, to sort of expand or then
vergeoning police state, swat teams, FBI, Quantico, uh, Quantico lab
and all this stuff, and the justification of budgets. So
that's that's just that's the thesis of the book. Is that?
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 1: How you you see his argument?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, absolutely, and yeah. The majority of the book
is made up of the the serial killing crimes and
ritual crimes and then you do have, like you said,
those are those kind of early chapters that dealt with
more of the sex crimes and pedophiles. But you know,
one of the themes that he mentions is that a
lot of these these people seem to have been known
by the establishment, a lot of these devians. And so
the idea here is that because a lot of these
people who were troubled, maybe they were brought up in
very severely dysfunctional homes and then maybe they were molested,
and then having been through the system, they would have
been fingered and earmarked as potential candidates for these kinds
of things. Now that's very scary and that's very daunting.
But when we think about all the other material that's
out there, For example, the way that doctor e and
Cameron was stationed at Mount Royal Psychiatric Institute in Canada,
that's precisely what he was doing. He was finding troubled
people in the psych wards to run his tests on.
When we think about other aspects of the m culture
program that will run through various universities and Human Ecology Foundation,
or through these fronts, these psychiatric fronts, they were also
working in prisons, like in Louisville, Kentucky, excuse me, Lexing
in Kentucky. I think it was one of the sites
where they were picking out prisoners according to John Marx's book.
So that dovetails well with Dave's thesis, which is just
that you have if you've grown up in the system,
you know, with somebody like Charles Manson, He's a great
example who's you know, he was in juvenile problems from
like day one, right, so he would have been known
to the system. Is what is what we're trying to
say here, and that a lot of these guys seem
to have a curious pattern of where they end up.
And the serial killers tend to be excuse me, you
tend to have these time periods where they spent a
good bit of time in California, Texas, in Florida, excuse me.
And so Dave kind of theorizes that what you have
is in these states is number one, they're they're kind
of obviously to military industrial complex type states, especially with
a lot of the the bases in California. And then
you have a lot of drug running that would be
related to the Texas Mexico border, and then obviously drug
running too from waterways, you know, into Florida, So so
that that requires a lot of deep state apparatus, in
other words, to to keep the drug situation flowing. And
when you have one black market like drugs, you oftentimes
have the other ones too, like human trafficking. So drugs
in human trafficking requires sometimes threats and hitmen, and the
the serial killer phenomenon then can have many uses, right,
So you mentioned those in your description, but of course
Dave also mentions the possibilities of unsolved murders. These can
be haystacked, I think, is the term that you've used
where police departments excuse me, the haystacking is where you
you you have a target, but you sort of blend
them in amongst a whole bunch of people that you've
that you've killed, so what appears random. So that's another
one of the thecs here. And then you also have
the notion, like you said, of hay stacks of uh,
you know, police departments kind of stacking these onto one
guy and really Luke has killed you know, two hundred
people or whatever, which seems seems a little bit uh implausible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they took him on a tour. I did that
one yeah, I did that one. Yeah, yeah, that was
me too.
Speaker 2: But I think it's fascinating too that you know, he
tends to mention with these characters that they they could
have been picked out because they had disassociative identity disorder.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: And that may not necessarily mean that they were like
programmed in the sense of you like sent on the
mission to do this. Now, they may have been in
some cases, but rather than that, they would have been
chosen as people who already had mental problems, is when
I'm try. And that would be the cover, right, They
would never be suspected for being used by the establishment
or some nefarious group precisely because they're crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the reason, I mean the suspicion that that
that sort of uh identification process was in place well
with m k Ultra, the psycho psychiatic profession was completely
taken over by the military and intelligence for the purposes
of doing just that. So I mean, for example, you
mentioned obviously you and Cameron up and up in Canada, uh,
and he was funded by the Human Ecology Fund, the
c I A. I mean this was George Esterbrooks World
War two.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: You've over in the UK at the Tavistak Institute, which
identified you know, shell shock and trauma and how it
could be weaponized and manipulated PTSD and the various Uh.
I think I think every prominent psychiatic hospital institution was
somewhere or another one involved with mkultra back in the sixties,
fifties and sixties. Uh, same with the Actually you mentioned
the prisons Vacaville. There was a Angola prison in Louisiana,
and yeah, you mentioned the one in Kentucky. So that's
been established. So that's I mean, all the some of
the big heavy hitters in psychiatry and psychology were part
of mk ultra, and so that reporting mechanism would be
there just for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so exactly right, And even even the public information
is over forty universities in institutions like that were involved,
so you know, and that would include I'm assuming universities
that we probably would like. Yeah, it would be some
of the obvious ones like Stanford and Harvard. You know.
The ted Kyzenski was part of the m k Ultra
project in.
Speaker 1: Right, and I think his victims were connected to SRI I. Yeah, okay,
if if the official narrative is has any truth to
it right, which is which is interesting. I mean, so
he's he was an m k M culture test subject
or victim.
Speaker 2: By the way, just a little aside. Here have you
seen Spellbound.
Speaker 1: With with with Gregory Peck?
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw years ago with Ingenbergman,
here's all the freudianism I thought was hilarious in it.
Speaker 2: Well, it is Roudianism. But what's interesting is that if
you go back and watch it, Gregory Peck is being
used as the he what the there's a doctor at
the institute who's framing Gregory Peck for murder.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: He's doing that because Gregory Peck has this associative identity
disorder and he can't remember what he's done. And so
I was like, this is in the forties, and I
was watching this the other day. I was like, man,
this is kind of like an analogy for a lot
of Damn Calter type stuff. This fits well with dem
mc gallon's book because this guy believes that he's committed
the murder and it was actually the head of the
psychiatric institute.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the one with all the savage or Dolly
Art in it.
Speaker 2: Correct. Yes, it has a surrealist all seeing eye the.
Speaker 1: Artwork, and I think it was George Esterbrooks. He was
the world during World War Two. Was talking about my
control and hypnosis and trauma to create used a disassociated disorder,
multiple snalities to correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the essay Hypnosis Comes of Age, which is the
most famous one that you can read. This was a
it's online and it's the nineteen seventy one or two
Science Digest essay that he wrote, and that's where he
kind of lays out his bragging about all I can do.
I mean, I think the essay is older than nineteen
seventy one, but it's that's where you'll find it online,
is in that that format. But yeah, that's where he
describes the process of hypnosis and the courier and the
keywords and the triggers.
Speaker 1: And all that. And did you catch my interview with
doctor Joseph Ferrell recently on common Core? I did, Yeah,
And the he he's made it well and that interview
knows on several and in the book of course, he
connected uh, the Electronic Testing Service to the Human Ecology Fund.
Speaker 2: I did hear that?
Speaker 1: And when you're talking about you're you're talking how these
guys could be identified, profiled as you know, through the
various because they're identified as being psychological.
Speaker 2: We have the standardized testing exactly standardized testing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so now, and of course that was all
done at the behest. I mean they contacted I think
it was conit. I think a Harvard who ran it
or something. Man, I forget the name right, remember, but
basically it was It's done to not just identify, you know,
the best and the brightest, or to sort of to
channel people into the professions they think people should do
based on their testing parameters or standards whatever. But you
could you talk about today, I mean talk about the military.
Does the video games write this interactive video games that
go to the Pentagon first shooter games, these things.
Speaker 2: Being monitored and kill everybody at the wedding.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so these people can be identified like that. So
I was imagining the technologies former advanced now just with
obviously with the internet, with our smart devices everywhere and
everything being monitored, what we read, what we buy or
habits being monitored digitally, and that could you know, that
could flags you know, certain you could get flagged and okay,
here we get we got somebody, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's go.
Speaker 1: You know, so again it's one of the people hear
the stuff says No, I mean that the the literature
of the history is there, and it's been acknowledged that
these that this was done. And again the all the universities,
all the psychiatic hospitals, these prisons, these institutions, uh they're
supposed to help us protect society were weaponized, you know,
to do something quite opposite of what their with their
public charter claims they're there to do.
Speaker 2: And if anybody doubts that, all you have to do
is read the works of Bertrand Russell to understand the
scientific outlook m hm. Because it's ruthless, it's not moral.
They don't have any qualms of using people in that way.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And of course in the book he he
just goes to a list of of of these serial killers.
They all I'm not all of them, but almost military
intelligence backgrounds UHM experience.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's where we would get the potential Phoenix connection.
But I thought it was interesting that, uh I didn't
actually know a whole lot about Henry Ucas, but you know,
he points had a lot of suspicious things like being
pardoned by w Yeah, he's a good man. Henry Lucas
a good boy. He's a good boy, right. But so
he claims that he was in a satanant colt though
you know, so I don't know if it's true, but
that's what Innery Lucas claimed that the hand of Death
Cult you used him and that he was a contract killer,
and that this was associated with human trafficking from Puarez
into presumably Olpasso or Brownswell or somewhere. And this of
course connects to the Death Cult MS thirteen, which is
the Latin American gang that's you know, connected to all
this kind of stuff. And I believe has to have
some kind of help from above. I don't mean God,
he's from above from the government, especially with you, because
I watched them documentaries on Sante, which is the cult
which a lot of the MS thirteen are into, and
you look at the guys who runs cult, and there's
totally shady, obviously involved in some kind of some kind
of thing. And that's that jives well with a lot
of what Dave claims in the Henry Lucas chapter. And
you know, this is where we he's a good example
of kind of the archetype of what his thesis is
because Henry was office of a naval intelligence or had
some connection there, or he was spotted there, and maybe
he there's some connection to NATO. I'm looking back at
the at the book here, careful screening of subjects was
accomplished by the Navy psychologists and the military records. Many
were convicted murderers serving prison sentences and they were put
into this program. Yet here we go. So he's arguing
that in chapter eight that Henry Lucas was probably one
of these these people in this kind of a program.
And the military is ruthless. You have to understand that too,
Like they're just as ruthless as the scientism of Bertrand Russell.
Like they don't have any qualms of I mean, they're
in the business of killing people.
Speaker 1: They weaponized everything.
Speaker 2: Right, So you know, to a lot of people, this
is just sounds so you know, well, we're American, we
wouldn't do that. You know, we have the Wounded Warrior Project.
We go back and grab our wounded men, we carry
them back, right, But no, that's not really I mean,
obviously a lot of people in the military are good
natured and would do that. But that doesn't mean that
that's the modus opera. And I have the total totality
of the military. I mean, there's you know, it's compartmentalized.
There's all kinds of secret projects and stuff like this,
and so you know, Dave just kind of lists a
whole bunch of these characters that seem to pop up
around the same time. And you have Berkowitz, and you
have I think he mentioned Jim Jones or in some capacity.
I don't know that Jim Jones was necessarily atary connection,
although we know that he had the connection to Dan Miturion,
who was the CIA guy down in.
Speaker 1: Guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, hello, can you hear me? You're you're getting really
you're cutting up really bad? Have I Now, No, it's
just super staticky.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me give you and they give you a
call back. Okay, yeah, clear it up.
Speaker 2: Than uh so, Yeah, I think this is a chapter
eight is one of the one of the more important
chapters in the book because this is where he's talking
about they're called CTS criminal. I don't know what that
stands for, but these are the people who are in
the Phoenix program and they're they're the ones that are
trained to they're kind of profile to be the psychos,
and then they're kind of let loose obviously the awe
into the offices of psychological terror against the Viet Cong.
And then these people come back, and you know, they're
already known to military, so they could be put to
all kinds of use, right, And that's that's a very
enticing theory, I think.
Speaker 1: Because what do you do with these men once they
come back?
Speaker 2: What do you do with these guys? Right? And so anyway,
that's that's I'm flipping through the chapter. So that that
was a really important chapter. And I didn't know anything
about the Mathea mortros culled. That was totally new to
had heard of it, but that was new to me.
And then so you just realized that there's so many
examples of this stuff that it's kind of just been
forgotten in the you know, in the news. Like I
remember this back in the eighties or nineties or whatever
it was, but in the eighties, but you know, we
were told that there was that was all a Satanic
panic created a by Roaldo. There was no real Satanism,
there was none of this. It was just a panic.
Yet throughout the eighties and nineties, the Juarez was the
world capital for missing women. And I actually went and
looked up a lot of Dave's claims and articles on this,
not only because I had traveled last summer too California
and stopped in El Paso on the way and I
saw Juarez and it made me think of the movie Cicicario,
and I was thinking, good grief looks so awful over
at Juarez. And in Cecario, the story is that the
FBI girl is tricked into working with this military out
of Shae. She's out of Shae for a military outfit
that's run by the CIA, and she thinks that she's
going to take out a drug dealer assassin, and really
all that what what was happening was that the CIA
was taking out a rival drug dealer yea, And so
they do the FBI girl anyway, so that all takes
place in Juarez in the in the movie. Yeah, I'm
sitting here eating this chapter in Dave's book, and I'm like,
this is straight out. This sounds just like Secario. And
you know it's not hard to believe. I mean if
you go and you you know, you look at the
border wall there in El Paso when you look over
into the water as it just for a second, it
looks like a hell hole.
Speaker 1: Well, they got to keep it a hell hole because
it's also a good source of.
Speaker 2: Cheap labor for the Well, that's what Davison points out too,
is that this is a big part of NAPTO was
being able to move all the sweatshops there. But you know,
he argues that there's a lot more going on that
it's not just sweatshops that you know, the women are
going missing for a reason. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that Rancho Diablo, which is an interesting name.
Speaker 2: For yes, that comes up in here too. Yeah, that's
is that the one that's connected to the mapa Moros.
Speaker 1: And there was rated by the Texas Rangers eventually, yes, exactly,
and they found bones all over the place, and again
for years, people ignored it for years. That's just a rumor,
it's a it's a myth. And I think that's the
one that Henry Lucas talked about, isn't it. And Henry
Lucas is an interesting story because you know, he's supposed
to be the serial killer because he teamed up with
two three different people at a time. One of his partners,
tool otis Toole, who has been linked to the death
of Adam Walsh. And everyone knows, you know, the uh
uh most want what's that show on Fox? Uh? Not
most wanted? What was it? Walsh? He'd had that show on.
Speaker 2: Fox News America's most wanted.
Speaker 1: Of course, that was in nineteen eighty one. His son
missing a sears in a Roebuck in nineteen eighty one
and the boy's head was on floating in the canal
otis tool was taken in for questioning for that crime,
and the police at the time lost the machete and
even the I believe in the automobile that he had used,
and they let him go and he and he was
in prison again later on, and he supposedly confessed to
that crime. And if you know, you're probably too young
to remember, but I remember that very well because that
was one of these national stories. We started getting national
stories in the eighties about missing kids. We didn't get
those in the seventies as regional. And it he was
one on Phil Donahue Show and all this, and you know,
it became a crusade about missing exploited children. And of
course the fact that the head was separated, you know,
suggests some sort of maybe satanic thing. But this gets
into the sort of the alchemical I guess, element of
the Serira Chillar phenomena that Michael Hoppin gets into. But
even Dave McGowan talks about it creating fear, creating an
adami society where kids can wander, go out in place,
communities no longer cohere. This just getting it out there
like that would terrify the community. And it was.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 1: It was a trauma for the entire nation the way
the media covered it. And and what's strange is, of
course this Jeb Bush, the governor of Florida, otis tools
arrested the governor of Texas. But again, in all the cases,
whether it's the same thing with John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer,
otis tool is inexplicable, complete police incompetence, the failure to
follow up on things. And that's what he points out,
you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this comes uh to the four especially in
the case of Oh my mind just went blank. I
watched the after I read the book, I watched a
four hour TV movie.
Speaker 1: Oh that was on John Wayne Gacy with Denny Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So here he's essentially now that the TV show moved.
The TV movie kind of hints at it, but not really.
They don't go into the fact that he was seems
to have been operating very well with the local police,
you know, as if maybe he was maybe their guy,
you know what I mean, like their guy to take
out people, because if there was a gay prostitution slash
drug ring, then presumably in that kind of a setting,
you're going to be worried about narcs, and so you know,
you might need to have somebody around to take out
the narcs. No, I don't know if that's exactly what
was going on with him, but but I mean that
makes that makes sense in terms of the police and
competence and the fact that he was this very prominent
member of the community and the j CS and you know,
all these civic organizations that he was a part of.
Speaker 1: David Guta makes a point in the book he talks
about the who idea of the serial killer profile. He says,
most Americans are probably familiar with what is considered the
classic serial killer profile. This was the notion for a
first put forth by the venerable FBI, which coined the
term serial killer and pioneered the concept of profiling in
an alleged attempt to understand the phenomenon of the mass murder.
It appears to be the case, though, that the concept
of the serial killer profile was put forth to largely
misinform the public. And if you scrutinize these cases, one
can't help but agree with the mister McCowan on that point,
because none of them like to buy buying torturing, kill killer,
none of us, none of us supposed to kills follow
any profile. And that's one that's the case of hay
Stacking put potentially because one of those first kills was
this military guy who told his son that someone's after him,
and the whole family was wiped out, his wife who
was trained in martial arts. Two dogs I think were killed,
another son and him.
Speaker 2: Right, and Dave makes the argument that it looks a
lot more like a actual operations trained person, Yeah, came
in and did this, as opposed to you know, this
weird creepy guy that's just kind of you know, stalking
around the neighborhood. You know, like like we're what we're
told it is.
Speaker 1: And uh, the you meant in your talk you talked
about the Zodiac killer you know, and how of course,
how again, well, there's a boot that was identified as
being a navy issue or something, right, right, so military,
And I guess that seems that there again, that seems
to be a case with a lot of people doing it,
some of them some of the people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, yeah, like burke Wood said, and then burke
Wood says, oh, I was at the working at the
behest of a larger satanic cult.
Speaker 1: The of course, sena same case came on later, that
was the seventies and Maury Terry's book Positive Theory that
it was a cult doing it, and he just Burger
with himself said he was only to the shootings, right,
And Michael Hoffman sort of examines that case and talking
about all the evidence suggesting that it was indeed multiple,
you know, perpetrators.
Speaker 2: Well, one of the points exactly one of the points
of Oliver Stone slash Quentin Tarantino's movie Natural Born Killers
is that the media is really what creates and gives
everybody the impression of the serial killer. So I mean,
I'm not I don't know how cognizant they were of
Dave's book, but I'm saying or Dave's word because I
think that that that movie came out when I was
in high school. But the point of the movie is
that the media makes these people in two stars, that
makes their media creations, is what I'm trying to say.
And so that once again shows the role of mass
media in terms of sciops. Because you know, if Dave's
thesis is right, then that's why we don't see them anymore.
They're not needed anymore. That's where did all the zero
killers got? Where are they?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the work, the work's been done, I guess exactly
the getting into the the why this you look at it?
When the serial killer emerged against the late sixties, I
think the Zodiac Killer was probably we're at you at
the the salvo. The Boston Strangler another case where none
of the doesn't fit any of the profile. In fact,
people think he went to prison for his being the
Boston strangler. He didn't. He was convicted for another crime.
And I think it was weird as f Lee Bailey
was his lawyer who presented the strange defense that he
that he was not innocent, not guilty of the crime
is charged because he was busy strangling somebody. I think
that was his defense.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: But d Salvo himself looks like some sort of mind
control victim. U. Yeah, and there's only there was no age,
women of all ages. There's no profile to it, and
it's just one of these weird cases.
Speaker 2: Oh. By the way, Ted Bundy also is one of
says claims that there were other people involved. Yeah, so
that it was he wasn't just him as the loan gunner.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And that's another thing to remember. He's able
to break out of prison and kill multiple girls at
a sorority. And I mean it's like, how does he
breaks out of prison and able to same thing Richard
Speck remember his case, and he broke into the nurses
dorm or something and was able to murder multiple girls
as they waited. I mean they were like locked in
a room and waited. Uh.
Speaker 2: Interesting, but I don't remember the detail. But I remember
you noticed this coming up too. And Richard Ramirez' case.
He he said to have been trained by his relative
who was a military killer of some sort.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in Vietnam. Was in vietnamause I think his cousin,
the old brother or something. Yeah, it was true.
Speaker 2: And then Bobby Joe Long is the cousin of Lucas.
Speaker 1: That's all the family. But look at the context when
this is happening, is we're talking about the nineteen sixties,
the Vietnam War, and what the Vietnam War represented a
lot of motivations for that war. Wasn't the domino theory,
you know. Obviously, one was big war contracts milled, a
lot of spending Kellig Brown and Rute, a lot of
harbors to be dragged, a lot of helicopters get shot
down and maintained and replaced in these things. Another motivation
for the war chrismas heroin. We've talked about that. But
another one I think Chris, when I talked to Chris Milligan,
he comes up with the theory that the war itself
was intended as a trauma for society. It's society to
kind of create a divide between generations. Yes, this gets discoes,
you know, they broader theory behind the counterculture. And order
to get the counterculture, you needed a war to protest.
And so the overall trauma of that war. Of course,
within that war and the war itself provided a great
opportunity not only to experience to test various weapons, weapons systems,
weapon platforms, the most of psychological warfare. Of course, Doug
Doug Valentine's work on the Phoenix program is invaluable in
understanding the Phoenix program. What his intent was was to
counterinsertainty program to destroy what referred to as the civilians
infrastructure of the Viet Cong. Of course, what that really
means is on the ground is killing a lot of
innocent people, torturing a lot of people, terrorizing them.
Speaker 2: It's what you see in Apocalypse now. Yes, yeah, yeah,
and that's of course created by William Colby. And I
just lost my train of thought.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, well, the implication is that
if in order to subdue the civilian population of Vietnam
to achieve whatever reject of the US government had in
Vietnam at the time. Oh yeah, I'm go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I remember now. So yeah, what you start to notice
is that these operations that are run for foreign psychological operations.
This is what I've been noticing the last couple of years,
especially when you study the phenomena of the Color revolutions
and Arab Spring and then all that kind of stuff,
And then you also look at the School of the
Americas and the Desk squads, and then you start to
realize that that the foreign ops are kind of test tubes,
and then maybe it looks like at times they'll they'll
bring that back home and do it mastically. So it's
not this is a pattern. I guess it's been going
on for a long time, That's what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's attempted to destabilize, and of course you're
going to destabilize Honduras or l Salvador or Peru or
Chile in a different way that you destabilize you know, Springfield, America,
you know, Los Angeles. But uh, yeah, so the idea
of the Phoenix program. Obviously things like the I don't know,
Department Home Security grew out of the Phoenix program. The
ideas before it, you know, the basic idea of these
whole idea of of fusion centers is an adaptation of
the Phoenix program to model people. So all these so
these things don't go away. They're you know, they're you know,
they're tested and they're modified. But the idea of perhaps uh,
destabilizing the home front for for a particular reason, for
some sort of as MIKEA. Hofflin Systems of Alchemical process
so so to debate or degrade, to break down, to
atomize the civilization and the community. And obviously you get
that with the fear of crime and the serial killer
the he talks about it. Uh yeah, of.
Speaker 2: Course, that's the grado, the blackening.
Speaker 1: There you go, yeah, yeah, you're right exactly. Of course,
many serial murders are nothing more than the work of
a single individual acting on a graphic horror movie he saw,
or responding to a powerful psychotic impulse, impulses for aggression
and predation. But many other serial murders involved the cult,
a cult protected by the US government and the corporate
media with strong ties to the police. These murders, you know,
obviously you're starting on John Wan Gacy's evidence of that
these murders are actually intricately choreographed rituals, performed first on
a very intimate, secret scale among the initiates themselves in
order to program them, then on a grand scale amplified
and calculatul and caculably by the electronic media like natural
born killers. Right right, yeah, So there you go, and
this one gets in the end, what we have is
a highly symbolic ritual working broadcast and millions of people,
a Satanic inversion, a black mass where the pews are
filled by the entire nation, and through which humanity is paganized, brutalized,
and debased in this negrado phase about chemical process. Yeah,
so there you go, you're right, yeah, pressure you remember that? Yeah?
Uh And well, like I can see reading that if
you're just like an average Joe, you know who just
what is this guy talking about? But the uh and
you see that in burker Ritz, You see that in
uh in Bundy, you see it in John Wayne Gacy
and all these things. Jack the Ripper, Yeah, Jack the
Ripper is uh uh he chases the back duffer who
the guy's Laura gall I think was his name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of these like high level British Mason.
Speaker 1: Free Mason abortionists.
Speaker 2: Yea.
Speaker 1: And the point is, and he makes the point in
psychological warfare and secret society's suicide and psychological warfare is
this sort of process won't work in a society that's healthy.
So the study has to be broken down bit by
bit gradually, where if society gets brutalized and aren't brutalized
enough and did great enough, then it does work, because
a healthy society will have a natural defense mechanism for
these things.
Speaker 2: Yes, he uses the term theater of cruelty. So the
whole nation or the whole society becomes like the horror
movie and it's intended to brutalize, and that that kind
of goes It's a trauma based mind control on a
mass scale. And so in Dave's book, he talks about
the blooding. He's I'd never heard it called that. I've
just always heard people say, you know, people that are
severely disturbed, like these killers, you know, they're just traumatized.
But he calls it a blooding that at a certain
point in their lives, when they're younger, they're intentionally exposed
to the macabre and to something bloody or traumatic. Do
you remember what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like you know, there's sixteen and they get a
job at a morgue or something and they're like dealing
with cadavers and then you know, weird stuff's going on,
and you know, this is I'm not saying that everybody
who is a mortician's evil. I'm just saying that in
the cases of these people, He's noted that as a
consistent pattern that you know, they had some sort of
grotesque exposure you know that scarred them I guess in
some way at a formative period in their life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he makes point what this, what these uh,
what this trauma creates is? He says, it's a what
we observe in the population today. Are there three destructive
symptoms of persons whose minds are controlled by alien forces?
I guess what he means by that is the psychological
warfare amnesia, i e. Loss of memory, abulia, loss of will,
and apathy loss of interest in the events vital to
one's on health and survival. Amnesia, abulia, and apathy are
nearly universal amongst today and gaining a greater foothole each
passing day. This and this is done again through the
electronic media, through entertainment. He even talks about what breads
and circuses and the effects.
Speaker 2: Of that Negrado process. Uh. It's a page sixty seven
that may have been where you were reading. But he says,
in the end, we have a highly symbolic ritual broadcast
to millions of people, a satanic conversion of black matter,
where the peues are filled with the entire nation, the
Negrado phase. Then he goes to say. The French adept
Antony and Are Todd, architect of the Theater of Cruelty,
wrote about this in terms of the group mind. Aside
from trifling witchcraft of country sorcerers, there are tricks of
global who do in which all alerted consciousness participate periodically.
That is how the strange forces are aroused and transported
to the astral vault, to that dark dome. Now this
all sounds kind of crazy, but what the guy's saying
is that when you have a huge event like the
whole nation's fixated on Manson or the whole nations fixated
on Zodiac or nine to eleven, that it's understood that
you can reason from the individual to the collective. So
if you have an individual who is traumatizing because he's
fixated on you know that the shock that happened, that
you can do that same process on a mass scale
through having everybody's energy and focus, you know, an attention
on you know, whatever this gigantic so called crime is,
z Yeah or Manson or whatever, and that what that
does is then that everybody's participating in this process of
being being ritualized. You're you're being You're going through the
ritual process. I've written a bunch of articles on mass
media is like a ritual process. But but anyway, that's
what that's what happens saying. Is that just just hammering
home that point that that I've been arguing too, that
you can you can reason from the individual to the
from the micro to the macro scale to understand and
that's exactly what they did with the kulture is they've
expanded the the individual studies to the mass you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, same, not just through the h with drug distribution
and also with meat, mass media and psychological.
Speaker 2: Warfare exactly right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, here's the part he says it much better
than I said. He says talking about he's talking about
revelation the method, and talking about why would they reveal
what they're doing? How would that serve the uh, the
interest of the cryptocracy? He says, why would the perpetrators
want to their secrets revealed after the fact, even if
it is years later? The question, sorry, the the question
can only be definitively answered if one has an understanding
of the zeitgeist, which overseers in the cryptocracy have partly
manufactured and partly tailored their own operations to coincide with
As I've pointed out, secrets like this were rarely revealed
in the past because traditional people had yet had not
yet completed the out chemical processing. To make such perverse
modern revelations to an unprocessed, healthy, vigorous population possessed of will, memory,
adherence to their deepest inner intuition and interests, and intense
interest in their own salvation would not have been a
good thing for the cryptocracy. It would have proved fatal
to them. But to reveal it after the acts of secret,
I'm sorry, oh sorry, But to reveal it, you know,
players after they've been processed. I lost my quote there. Well,
basically to reveal it later after they've been processed, they
can't respond to it, and then they fall into that
when he was talking about loss of will, loss of memory,
and apathy, and they can then be you know, they
can then be manipulated.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the hypnotist with the victim there, you know,
like Spengali. This is the government of Spengali and you're
the beautiful young maiden you know, yeah, in the population exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but again you're and we're talking again, what's going
on again? It's which why does would go, it's the
serial killer would come on the scene. In the late
sixties and the height of the Vietnam War, and going
into the seventies, you have the economic crisis of the
nineteen seventies, the closing of the gold window at the
end of Breton Woods, the debasement of the dollars and
coincides also the cultural debasement of the of the American people.
This feminism, the promotion of perversion like gay rights through
planned parenthood, these things. This is trending society upside down
and making everyone confused. The uh targeting of things like
the family that was that occurred would also lead to
further degradation also for the trauma, which would complete the process.
What you're seeing now, the confusion we're seeing exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, the the alchemical process includes the
period or the stage of androgyny, and that's ultimately the
meaning of the bathroom met symbol altheum that is, androgynists
has both genders. And if you listen to a lot
of interviews with these people who are really into this
trans stuff, and I'm speaking kind of across the board,
like if they're into transhumanism or trans maybe well maybe transvestite.
But there's there's some pop culture so called icons who
have uh watched documentaries on who talk about their their
beliefs and why they wanted to change their genders, like
this weirdoh Genesis p Orridge, who's a kind of a
punk figure, post punk or whatever you call it just
makes noise. The guys mentally eat unstable obviously, but he
went through the gender process or to some degree gender
change excuse me, reassign or whatever, and he's he goes
into it and he starts talking about alchemy. He says, well,
I'm a fervent believer in alchemy, and I believe that
in the original state of whatever the divine was or
whatever we evolved from, that it was neither male nor female,
or in some cases they'll actually say they believe that
it was female that we all evolve from, like some
sort of feminine primal cell. So you get In other words,
it's all based on nonsense. It's all based on myths
and gnostic fables. But they will say that since and
this isn't neo platonism too, and platonism, that the original
unity could not have any distinctions or particularities, that couldn't
have masculinity or femininity, so it had to be that
that has to be the state that we got to
get back to. Right, and this fits all into the
stuff that Huxley talks about openly. So you have to
we have to get rid of distinctions. That the enemy
of the future will be distinctions, distinct nations, distinct genders,
distinct racis, distinct religion, distinct claims. All that has to
be destroyed in the name of unity and globalism. That's
literally what Huxley says. So they are where of alchemy.
In fact, I think even Kestler in Ghosts of the
Machine talks about the whole process is alchemy. And you say, well,
they're scientists that don't believe in medieval alchemy. Well, it's
those are just terms for the same process, right. So
if you you know, if you take, if you're taking
genetically modify, if you're if you're taking a fish scale
and putting it into a tomato to make the tomatoes
skin stronger against pesticides, you're not doing anything different than
what a medieval alchemist wanted to do. He just didn't
have the means to do it or the technology do
But that's at least what he was trying to do
was you know, mess up creation and whatnot. Uh. And
that's really what alchemy is is just the the the
attempt to it's the domination of nature through technical ultimately
at the chemical biological level. Uh. That's that's what I
read alchemy as. So. Yeah, I mean there's all this
kind of spiritual stuff that people try to tack onto it.
Of John d would say, oh, I can turn base
matter into God, you can become God through my alchemical steps,
and enoch in magic. But I think a lot of
that stuff is just they were just con men.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Alchemy is is more so chemistry. That's what it eventually becomes,
is the it's chemistry. But but what is so fascinating
is that even if we deride or laugh at the
notion of alchemy, you know, what the establishment is doing,
what genetics research is doing, what bioengineering is doing, what
geoengineering is doing, is actually you know, creating the the
monstrosities that the alchemist talked about. Yeah, not liberal Well
I don't know what they actually do in clone labs.
Who knows what they're doing. But when we look at
you know, sinomics, and we look at the aborted fetal
cells being used for the flavoring in pepsi and four
the vaccines, which is all true. You know that that's alchemy,
that's dark alchemy.
Speaker 1: Yes, you also made it interesting because in your talk
you talk about serial killers, and Michael Hoffman a point
that's basically it's the promotion of thanatosis, So the cult
of death, it's being promoted in all this h and
you mentioned well, women with multiple abortions and how sort
of the.
Speaker 2: That's never mentioned as psychopathy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he makes it's very fun because in psychological warfare,
secret society and psychological warfare. He says, of course, no
matter what her affiliations, Sharon Tate's murder was a heinous crime.
It's interesting to note that while much is made of
the murder of her unb baby as being the most
horrible part of the Mason gangs are called violence, women
who pay physicians to kill their unborn babies are not
regarded as guilty of any satanic act, heinous or otherwise.
With the sacrifice of Sharon Tate's unborn baby somehow a
ritual precursor for the coming mass sacrifice of unborn children,
which was subsequently legalized by the United States Supreme Court.
So this was August nineteen seventy nine. Of course, for
the Wade is January nineteen seventy three. That was an
interesting point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, think about and here we are now with
Kurt Gosmill, m guys like that.
Speaker 4: So so, I mean, people, people might balk at the
idea of ritual and in power behind these kinds of acts.
Speaker 2: But if you I'm not saying that shamanism is true.
Obviously I don't believe in shamanism, but if you read
the approach that shamans have, or the how they go
about their process of understanding the world and their ritual
process and all that, even though I think they're totally wrong,
in a way, it's perhaps spiritually speaking, a little more
closer to the mark because they understand that, you know,
they're tapping into entities on the other side. And we
would laugh at that, bulk at that in modern America,
we think that that's so superstitious and stupid. But you know,
there are many many indigenous tribes and shamans out there
in the world, and many of them still take hallucinogens.
This is being promoted in our country I've had bad
experiences on hallucingens, so I know directly that you know,
you're tampering with the psyche and you're tampering with your spirit,
and that's a dangerous road to go down. And I
also think that the LSD was a big part of it,
that that just as the shaman goes through an initiation,
the promotion of LSD I think was a kind of
ritual process because again and when Gordon Wasson and you know,
these characters went and got the ergots for the creation
of LSD at the Sandels Pharmaceutical Corporation, they were also
aware of what the shamans were able to do when
the shamans would initiate people. So you cannot divorce these
drugs from that process, even though even though we tend
to think of them as divorced from it, like oh, yeah,
we're just partying, we're just hanging out, and I'm saying that, No,
there's an actual power behind these things. That's very dangerous,
and that's why so many people go crazy and you know,
jump out of buildings and plunging to their death, and
you know, see, you know that they get lost in
other realms in their mind, they're crazy. You know, all
that stuff happens for a reason, because this is very
dangerous and basically what I'm saying is a satanic is
what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I'm not saying that
drugs in themselves are always bad. Obviously, nothing that God
created in itself is evil. But what I'm saying is
that the mass promotion of these things and the pharmaceutical
usage of these things, I think generally speaking, is not
for human well being.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's if you look at the how many
college students I think John Rapperport did I think had
an article talking about how twenty five percent of college
students are receiving psychotic care. Yes, and they're being dyna
and they're given you know, psychatrific drugs to deal with
their problems. When you know, anyone looking at why a
freshman or sophomore college might having might have living problems
because they're away from home for the first time, not
doing well. Maybe they received a bad education, poor education
in high school. Maybe I don't know. Maybe you know,
they're very guilty because they're hooking up too much. Maybe
they're you know, all types of things that have nothing
to do with uh, that can that can be dealt
with through pharmacology. Yeah, but the schools themselves have become
not only uh uh instruments for for debt bondage, you know,
predatory loan institutions, but they've also become a mass mic
control operation, not just through just do poor education or indoctrination,
but through drugs.
Speaker 2: Apparently, right right, I did. I would recommend people too.
I did an essay or an article I don't know,
four or five years ago, but I can't remember the
name of the times, something like Masculine Feminine Wisdom or
something like that, and it's about the drug experience. And
I'm actually arguing against the use of hallucinogens because I
see them as such a spiritual danger. Nobody talks about
them as a spiritual danger. And that's what's very surprising
to me, because you can watch the BBC documentary as
a whole series of this guy, Bruce Perry I think
is his name, and he just totally really stupid on
his part, went and found like twelve, ten or twelve
different indigenous tribes and he went through the ritual process
of all these tribes to be initiated in and most
of them involved the usage of hallucinogens and pretty heavy
talksins at times. And you know, he describes this process too,
and he really he eventually came to realization that it
was all it was. It couldn't really be divorced from
its spiritual significance, and and it ended up being a
bad thing for him, Like he felt like he had
to go get like psychiatric help eventually after he had
done all this, which was completely stupid. I mean, I
can't yeah, assuming that he really did all this, that
it wasn't like a BBC put on or something. Yeah,
he really did this. You know, he had to get
psychiatric help, and you know, he had experienced too much
dark stuff. But you know, I swear on it that
it's real. You will you will encounter dark things. Not
every time, not every single person. I can't speak for,
because it's it's more of a like you kind of
take this inner journey and you're kind of forced to
deal with the issues that you have. Now, some people
think that that's a positive thing and that psychology should
utilize these things. I don't think it is. I think
that's a trick. I think it's totally dark. You look
at the history of the church for example, when the
church would do its missionary work and they would find
these indigenous tribes and so forth, they were doing this.
It's almost always the same thing like that the Shamans
who are have been the blast of their mind on
these drugs and try to control the people through these drugs.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: They they're not These are not healthy people. We have
this mistake and assumption that oh, all the innocent, the
noble savage right of Rousseau or something. That's not true.
These people are not the noble savages, so that that
all needs to be I think debunked. And who's the
woman who did the the famous anthropologist to Margaret Meat.
Margaret Meat, her stuff is debunked too, that she.
Speaker 1: Was, Yeah, Chris, she was the spouse of great Greed
Bateson who weaponized anthropology. Yeah, it was all done to
exploit primitive people. Then the only problems they look at
us as primitive, the general public is primitive being for
being manipulated.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: I well back if you doctor Hans Uder, and we
were talking about very thing actually, and he's talking about
you and Cameron and his some of you and Cameron's
research over there at the Alla Memorial Institute or to
see if psychosis could be well, uh, it could spread
like a disease, like a contagion.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: And well it's interesting because, like anything, if it could
uh under the pretext of trying to contain the contagion,
they like a buy weapon, they'd seek to weaponize it.
How can you can you spread psychosis like a contagion
through society? And I think they have and I think
the serial killer, terrorism, these things fear is in a
way doing that because people lose their critical faculties and
that you can see that as a sort of a
psychosis how people respond to these threats that were told exist.
It's it is a certain psychosis mass communication. I mean
christalpher for Simpson's book the uh the Science of Coercion,
talks about the whole study of mass communication. It's refinement,
which for mass manipulation. And this goes back to the
Princeton Radio Project. In the world of the worlds and
these things, you know, yeah, it's not there to enlighten
or educate. And a lot of these these figures, I mean,
whether they're they're put up there to inform us and
educate us, they're stage actors, they're they're they're they're spooks,
the s S agents like you know, you know, mm hmm, yeah.
People have trust in these in these institutions. It's it's amazing,
you know, out of ignurse. I guess I suppose, you know, right.
Speaker 2: And another thing too is you can't overlook the the
the drug aspect of a lot of these killers. So
a lot of these guys were drug addicts or are
on drugs or.
Speaker 1: Were on drugs.
Speaker 2: So you know, like Manson for example, Manson was bombed
out of his mind on LSD for for all these years. Uh,
and you know he's not he doesn't even really seem
to be president. Like I don't think that that guy,
whoever he was originally that persona is gone. Yeah. So
I think that also suggests again a connection to not
just the counterculture and the sixties lifestyle or something like that,
but or the hate Ashbury lifestyle, the flower child lifestyle.
But you know, I think that suggests more is at work, right,
I mean, because if you've got guys that have been
through these institutions, the prisons, Vacaville, mental institutions, the juvenile institutions,
and they've been given or on who knows what hallucinogens.
I mean, I just I don't think that you can
underestimate the intensity of what can be done through the
chemical concoctions that can be made. I mean, you can,
you know, especially back in the fifties and sixties, before
people really knew what these drugs were and what they
could do. I mean, I tend to think that there's
probably a connection to the UFO phenomenon as well. This
is just a speculation on my part, but you know,
a lot of the experiences that people have on LSD
or d M T or ayahuasca and all these different ellutions,
they tend to speak like they're talking to aliens too, right,
if they think they're they're communicating with the gods or
the aliens. So it could also be the case, just
throwing it out there, what if a lot of the
people who think that they interacted with UFOs they could
have been given drugs and it would it would be
very easy to simulate or cause someone to believe that
in the midst of a serious drug trip. Yeah, I mean,
that would be very easy to do, especially if you
know your farmer brown or something in the fifties and
you have no I do what LSD or iahwask Is,
you know what I mean? And uh, you know you're
tested on and then you know, all you'd have to
do is like turn a fan on outside and blink
some lights, you know what I mean. Farmer Brown would
think that that was a UFO. I mean literally, yeah,
in the midst of and so then he comes on
it comes out, Oh, I've seen I've seen the space visitors.
They came to me last night. They I was out
of my body, had out of experience, all of which
all of which lines up with the LSD experience.
Speaker 1: That's a great read to. I mean, if you're gonna
experiment on someone and just when you finish, when you
finish with him, just create like an alien experience and
he's totally discredited if he says he guess what happened
to me, I was pro by aliens or something.
Speaker 2: And then I know or or or uh, you know
Dave mentions in one of the cases, uh kids that
were that were taking had been drugged as well.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And now if you're a child and you've been drugged
or given these crazy drugs, these really intense ones like
LSD or something, I mean, there's I think you would
absolutely dissociate. And imagine if the person who molested you,
I mean, they could be wearing a Mickey Mouse outfit,
and you know, you could be saying you were molested.
I'm not joking, by the way, you could be saying
I was molested by Mickey Mouse. I was molested by
somebody wearing an alien you know, I was mosted by aliens.
It was just some pervert and alien suit. Yeah, and
you have their immediate cover.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean using drugs to exploit people. I mean
George Hunter White right operations at midnight Climax, using prostitutes
to then film the Johns. And he's the one that
the famous quote that you know I you know I
what was that quote of his? I raped and murdered.
I did it all on the under the cover of
the American flag. Had a good time doing it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: This is a great quote from him talking about what
he got away with under the cover of national national security.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. So it's was it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they this was operation they did this operation of
midnight Climax that people drugged them and filled them having
sex with prostitutes and who knows what else I mean here, Yeah,
I was I was a very minor missionary, actually a heretic.
But I toiled wholeheartedly in the vineyards because it was fun, fun, fun,
Or else could a red blooded American boy lie killed, cheat, steel,
rape and pillage with the sanction the blessing of the
Hall of the All Highest. George Hunter White who was
a counter narcotics officer and also worked with the c
i A. It was part of the early stages Jim
Carlton operation Midnight Climax and that whole operation of Night Climax.
They this was a they had these safe houses or
in San Francisco.
Speaker 2: Well they just that they bought from the mom they
got it from the mob. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then you know the sor as the drugs they
went kind of with the Olsley Stanley and the Grateful
Dead was the marketing angle for that of spreading, you know,
seating the whole country with LSD, seeing what the reaction
would be, and the rock festivals, festivals themselves. It's a
money pop or woodstock And Dave mcgott made a point,
then sixty nine was interesting year because you had the
moon landing in July twentieth ninety sixty nine, you're the
woodstock in August nine, sixty nine, the Manson killings in
sixty nine. It's really all these and they're all syops,
you know, and you can see how they're all being
a related, how they react, how they would manipulate the
country's emotions one way or the other. I mean, it
really is amazing. And you see it from the broader picture, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, I mean, and it's it's very difficult to fathom.
But then I but but when you read you know,
secret societies and reprogram to kill you, you know, you
can really get a better picture of how not only
is it entirely possible, but that is, you know, the
most plausible explanation for all this.
Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, so well, Jay, listen, I want
to think I think anything else, I mean, you think
we covered it or.
Speaker 2: I would like to mention the h the last section
just because it's just so funny, bizarre and weird to me,
and I've never heard anybody else mention this. But just
the character of Jean Badell Bocassa, the puppet ye and
who claimed him proclaimed himself emperor in nineteen seventy seven
of Central African Republic, And what's weird about that? By
the way I went. I went after I read this,
I went and I watched a bunch of clips and
documentaries on this guy. I want this one a whack up.
But he liked to eat his people. He was victorious
over so he would eat his enemies. And then he
he fled to France. So a lot of funny the
Iatola did France too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he't out in France too for a while. Yeah,
a while.
Speaker 2: A lot of people flee to France. But yeah, so
you know, we think of cannibalism and these kinds of
things as out of the realm of possibility, and nobody
does that. But yeah, I think that again. You get
people whacked out on drugs and they will eat people. Okay,
that's my concluding salvo there.
Speaker 1: Oh, there was one interesting case they might remember.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: One of the later serial killers of the nineties was
petering out. Was this character Joel Rifkin.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: You might remember him from the Seinfeld as a character
named Joe Wifton and Seinfeld is a joke. He shared
the name of a serial killer he carried killed a
bunch of processuts up in the New York area.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Well, it turns out, yeah, he was an American Syrica
nineth ninety four to two and three two hundred and
three years in prison for murder murders of nine women
between nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety three. He is
believed to have killed seventeen victims between ninety nine nineteen
ninety three. New York City and the Long Island, New
York area. Well, it's interesting is Rifkin often hired prostitutes
in Brooklyn and Manhattan. He lived in East Meadow, a
suburban town on Long Island. He was a landscaper for
William Casey's widow.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, yeah, somebody somebody brought that up the other
day on a YouTube video I did. Yeah. And also,
don't forget Dahmer hanging out with no excuse me John
Wayne Gacy. Well, Dahmer was able to get his high
school class like the VIP tour of the Vice President's office,
and then he was going to be an up and
up and coming GOP guy. And then it was John WAYE.
Gacy hanging out meeting Jimmy Carter's wife.
Speaker 1: That's right, just after having a conviction for child lasstation.
He was already convicted sex offender, and he got the
so he got the secret Service button, which usually means
they're vetted, so which is even more inexplicable. That's just
you know, I mean even more in expled what's interesting.
And you mentioned he got the Dahmer got the tour
of Walter Monder's office. I think it was nineteen seventy
seven to nineteen seventy eight. Yeah, this may not have
may not be connected at all, but if I recall
my research, Walter Mondale sponsored a law, a federal law
which gave bonuses for child Protective Service personnel when they
get kids that are taken out of homes for abuse
reasons supposedly, uh, and get him adopted. It's a federal law.
Forget the name of the law itself. Okay, there is
Georgia State senator I think it was was a Deborah
Schaeffer who was exposed in the corruption and child Protective
Service as there was a yes, remember a child trafficking ring.
And part of the incentive for these agents that the
child pictures was that federal law. They get like a
five thousand dollars cash bonus. Each kid is removed from
who that has adopted from foster care, which means that
kid first has to be removed from a family and
put in the foster care. And she said there was
a child trafficking ring being operated under the cover of
that of that service largely funded by the federal law.
Walter Monduls, the Senator, was a sponsor of that of
that bill. Wow, Okay, I don't know if that's connected
at all to it, but it's interesting.
Speaker 2: To well, it makes sense. But hey, I have a
couple of questions.
Speaker 1: And of course, Jeffrey Dahmer right going, who was involved
in child sex, rape, murder and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, so, well, what you think about Dave's book.
Do you agree with the thesis that a lot of
the serial killer stuff is hyped up? I mean, I
think that you know, there are contract hits, and there
are these drug gangs, and there is m S thirteen.
That's a real thing. But I mean, do you think
that do you think do you think the Damer thing,
for example, was exaggerated or do you think that it
was you know, the way they told it.
Speaker 1: That's interesting.
Speaker 2: You think he had, you know, bodies in the freezer
and stuff.
Speaker 1: I see no reason. I see no reason to implicitly
trust with the news we reported about that that could
all be bs right, and the idea again that gets
into the whole reason why that gets to the Mica
Hoffman's thesis. These these people may not be as spectaculars
as they think they're there aspect spectaculing the way that
is gruesome as we're told, because again we're dealing with
the media which hesitant sensationalism and of its in and
of itself. But we'll get into what Michael Hoffin says
about the we're all seeing the pews of the electronic media,
and we're all taking this in and just to reporting
us as gruesomeness, gruesomenessness, a gruesomeness, what's the word, the
gruesome details is going to have that very effect on us,
you know this, we'll talk about it, and has that
effect that's sort of a degrading of society in general.
Speaker 2: So what would you say, like in Henry Lucas case,
what do you think is the most we think is
most likely that went down that they just kind of
grouped a whole bunch of unsolved ones.
Speaker 1: I don't see one man, you know, being guilty, you know,
being a bit'll pull off hundreds of murders without he
himself getting killed at some point. It's not easy to
kill people. I mean it's right, I mean, you can
get away with a few times, but killing a human
being is difficult. Human being fights back, so it has
to be I mean a group of people. I mean
a trained killer can do it.
Speaker 2: I guess right.
Speaker 1: Uh. But you know again, I think I think that
that's kind of uh. I think Henry Lucas there was
there to close a lot of again, to close the books.
One thing that David mcgot didn't include in the books
that Kurd afterwards was the the d C sniper case.
Speaker 2: John Muhammad is bt K after the book too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, after the book as well, he talks about it
because the interview, Yeah, yeah, in the interview, but the
I was I'm in the area where the d C
sniper was. In fact, that there's a lady killed just
down the street from my brother's house right now.
Speaker 2: There were news stories that he that he left the
death card, which is the Special Forces card.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I remember that. And then also the fact
that the police chief Ountain, Moncolm mc County Moose, apparently
was at the same base as John Allen muhammed out
in Oregon. And that's it's weird. Remember that weird message
he left for him, that cryptic messages and on the
phone he called these comes out on to the police station.
Weird leaves us. It was almost like it's triggering And
the next day I think he's caught in the sleeping
in the car or something.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, yeah, Oh was there ever a reasoning for
why he was doing that.
Speaker 1: They concocted some sort of idea where he was going out,
he was gonna go after his wife and then create
a bunch of murders to cover it up, which goes
in that haystacking uh thesis. But they think he again
the media went and said, well, you know, they're probably
responsible for these murders too. Actually did that? They shore
like all these different murders and different states. How John
Allen Hamma is probably responsi for those murders as well.
But he he himself had unexplained income. He traveled, kids,
went to private school, he went on ski trips, went
to the went to the went to the Caribbean several times.
Speaker 2: Oh, he was probably a contract.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's what it sounds like. Uh and uh,
it's you know, given the time that happened, it was
the fall of two thousand and two, a year after
nine to eleven, and I remember the time thinking what
the heck's going on? And these weird things were Actually
they actually said that look for a white panel van.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that.
Speaker 1: Now. If you drive on the highways around here, I
think every tenth car is a white panel van. What's
the I mean.
Speaker 2: So that just makes everybody freak.
Speaker 1: Out, freak out, Yeah, And so that gets in this
whole idea of you know, holdings to the serial killers.
I remember joking at the time it was like getting
gasoline pulling people like ducking make my wife go out
and pump the gas. Hey, honey, can you get at
this time?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I want to live.
Speaker 2: And it's just as kind of silly as the terrorist story, right, because.
Speaker 1: You your chances of being a victim ian more likely
getting hit by a car or getting in a car accident.
We're getting sniped. But again it's the psychological effect. And
of course within those killings was this one lady I
think her name is Barbara Franklynn was an FBI agent
who was involved in the weapons and mass destruction cover
up or something okay, and she was gunned down outside
of home depot so that's an interesting case there. But
again it's one of the other things. If you look
at all these serial killers, the idea of you being
killed by a serial killer, the odds, oh really you better,
you more more likely get struck by lightning. And but
again the psychological effect. I think David Berkerwitz, the Son
of Sam, even the official narrative six six eight victims,
six fatalities and how many how many homicides are there
are there in New York City every year?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly. Another thing too. I remember I was reading
some of the pop stuff, like Psychology Today articles a
few years ago about quote serial killers, and you know,
it's it's a very pc and it's like the serial
killers of middle aged white male who wears the the
wire rim glasses and he's yeah, yeah, very very neat,
tucks his shirt in and all this kind of stuff.
And I'm sitting here thinking, well, actually, you can go
look it up. Just the mainstream story. At least, there's
quite a few female serial killers that are never talked about,
but there are they do exist. There are also black
guys who were serial killers that are not talked about.
So actually that the I would say that the there
are you know Latino killers who are pretty vicious, especially
MS thirteen gang types. So the idea that this is
like the white male, middle aged white male is the
serial killer is pretty ludicrous. And I also tend to
argue too that I think women who have no compunction
and have had, you know, five abortions, I don't see
why that's not a serial killer either.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well that goes back to what the Dave
McGowan said about the whole idea of by profiling that's
there to mislead the public about what the serial killer is. Thing.
There's aren't these organic guys that go out and you know,
they have this obsession and they're you know, like in
Slians of the Lambs, was going after like something, yeah,
like Cladish.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hunting down you know, doctor lector. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1: The myth is they're they're actually on a mission, and
the same way in Phoenix, where yeah, they're doing a
lot of killing, but there's a reason for it and
they may they may just they may enjoy it like
in Phoenix. Uh, but there's they're they're they have controllers
and the same thing you talk about these M S
thirteen guys. Uh where Yeah, there's a cult element to it,
because that's how you organize. Hey, that's how you motivate
and motivate and control people. But they have handles there,
and they're they're murdering for a reason, right, They're murdering,
murdering for a reason. A lot of the black crime
they're staring black crime rates in the nineteen sixties. At
first glance, that may have appeared to be you know,
disorganized or or sporadic, but it turns out that a
lot of these these gang black gangs were being funded
by the by the federal government through the community Black grants.
And I believe it was revealed in the Church Committee
hearings in the nineteen seventies that Sergeant Schreiver, when he
ran the the Office of econ Economic Opportunity uh gave
a close to a million dollars to this group called
the black Stone Rangers, a criminal gang in Chicago, I think.
And what the function of those groups was to more
or less just to go out create mayhem, create create
a lot of crime, to chase out the whites. And
this is all part of this program to destroy the
ethnic neighborhoods, the white ethnic neighborhoods. And encouraged the creation
the diaspor into them into suburbia. So this is all
part of a sort of a strategy tension and destabilization.
You mentioned that movie Circario, right, I mean, that's with
that James Brow character. He tells the lady FBI agent
that they're just down there, you know, you know, shaking
some treaties during trouble to see what happens. Of course,
what that really means on the ground is they're going
in there creating shootouts on the streets, making life a
living hell for the inhabitants down there in Mexico. And
you know, in your war as they could care less.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: That's the same way that perhaps criminal activities such as
drug drug dealing, importation drugs in the certain neighborhoods in
the United States, it could be all part of a
sort of a gentrification program.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: That's twenty years in the offense.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's kind of what.
Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with uh And that was
I mean that one of my points that this was
this was this type of strategy was was documented and
improven in the sixties with the Black student Rangers. You've
mentioned how the the the Black Panthers.
Speaker 2: Were radicalized and Richard Aoki.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then taken out when they murdered Freddie Hampton
because they got out of control. They've they've done their job,
the shelf off had expired, and then they take them out.
And when they're taken out, they're used as propaganda for
the police state.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: In the nineteen seventies you had the Simils Liberation Army, right,
which grew out of Vaucaville and Colton Westbrook, and.
Speaker 2: And that that with Charles Whittmore leads to the creation
of the swat team and federalization of local police.
Speaker 1: The police force. Say that whole shootout, which seems which
is probably staged. There's some question about Weatherman right, about
the growing out of rests and why Billy Aires was
never read. You know what guilty as hell for as
a bird was this quote? Yeah, you know the government
you know, technicality, we can't convict him. And that's a
statement of course. He's he's lived a charmed.
Speaker 2: Existence, right, with a whole bunch of foundation funding his stuff.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So I mean, the the silly killer these
this fits right into this. It's the all destabilization and
then psychological warfare bundled in with maybe targeted killings and
drug running and you know, it's, uh, it's what they do.
Part of understanding this, I think is is probably it
goes back to maybe go back to maybe Doug Valentine's
book in the Phoenix Program and thinking how would that
be applied domestically And that's just how it would be
applied domestically here, and how it's an influenced domestic policy
with the Department of Homeland Security, the Fusion centers, the
idea of you know, manipulating the media these things. How again,
how it's then how it's projected through these movies, through
electronic media and promoted. And your your question of regarding
or some of these stories exagger the groos, you know,
the gruesome details. Are they presented as you know? Yeah,
you're right. I mean there's no reason even to you know,
you know, to assume that that's even correct. It's just
it just goes it's for our consumption, you know, good.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Yeah, It's it's very Hollywood, isn't it.
Speaker 1: And it's like that, and it's like you know, like
the Serira killar area with the heads propped up, I
have to buy the dining.
Speaker 2: Room at the end of seven where yeah, you know,
who is it, Brad Brad Pitt sees his girlfriend's head
or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, decapitated wife's head or decapitated air right, yeah, in
the in the box there and all that. So yeah,
so well let's say, yeah, well, yeah, it was a
great talk. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I mean, your analysis
was a good program to kill. Is there anything else?
Speaker 2: No, I think that that's good. I mean there could
be a whole probably, yeah, there could be a whole
separate discussion of the secret societies and psychological warfare. But yeah,
both of the books dubtail.
Speaker 1: Well again, the serial killer phenomenon tends to the coincide
with a psychological warfare. The post war era sort of
a well, the Vietnam more, the economic problems, the trauma,
societal of destabilization. The whole thing was sizon to be
turning upside down. And yeah, the old rules didn't apply anymore.
Families were breaking up in the hot you know, increasing
divorce rate, the yeah, all this stuff, Uh, it's all
part of it. It was all part of it. And
see it in the in that context, and.
Speaker 2: I think it's important to point out too, that it
seems to be consistent phase, logical phases and steps. So,
like I was saying at the beginning, and the pop culture,
you get business plans or phases or steps of what's
considered revolution and counter establishment. You know, back then it
was smoking dope and listening to the doors and sleeping
around free love. Now it's fight the establishment patriarchy's genders
that they've imposed on you. Yeah, that's the phases of
the degradation, and.
Speaker 1: You couldn't get yeah, I'm sorry, as well.
Speaker 2: As passing from Oh, the sixties are a revolution against
you know, the nineteen forties and fifties corporate man and
the you know, the company man, and we're going to
be free from all that, and we're going to be
anti war. And then it becomes the serial killer phase, right,
and then it becomes the war on terror phase. Right,
So there's there's no more serial killers, but there's all
the terrorists everywhere.
Speaker 1: And then there's also the health, the health scares like
the AIDS crisis, AIDS hysteria.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's a great one, which is mentioned as
an actual psychological war preparation.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, for that very purpose to further the great society,
the hyper sexualized society, which is a big part of this,
by the way, because the hyper sexualization you get the
uh well, you get the violence, you get the serial killer.
Sexual sex is a big thing with the serial killer.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, a sex deaf cult is a good way
to put it in.
Speaker 1: And it's funny how you remove sex from procreation, you
immediately start.
Speaker 2: To use it becomes connected to death. Death, yeah right,
the les petite more the little death. Yeah, as the
French term for organizasms.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Wow, I didn't know that. Well, okay, well, Jake, listen,
I kept you a long time on to thank you.
I know you've been very busy lady, and you've been
very generous with your time. I'm really appreciated it. Thank you,
thank you, And you'll be headed out soon back to
do some more filming. So I wish you, wish you
safe travels. Appreciate that, and uh we'll talk later on
maybe you're uh later in the spring, early in the summer.
See whatever comes up.