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We're prohibited by Law 47 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:02.480 eighteen plus terms and conditions applying. See website for details. 48 00:02:03.239 --> 00:02:15.840 Baby, You are now listening to True Murder, the most 49 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:19.280 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 50 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:25.520 have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK 51 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:30.240 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 52 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:34.520 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 53 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:39.439 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 54 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:52.479 Good Evening. First came the unsettling Ouiji Board prophecy that 55 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:57.039 Robin Adams would die before her seventeenth birthday. When a 56 00:02:57.080 --> 00:03:00.000 minister was summoned to rid the house of frightening phenomena 57 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:03.879 blamed on Luigi Board, he was taunted and denounced by 58 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:08.879 a neighbor and suspected Satanist. Thus the die was cast 59 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.560 for one of the most bizarre murder cases in Michigan 60 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:16.360 history in nineteen seventy six, when Robin vanished without a 61 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:20.039 trace from the village of Cairo. Police were left without 62 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:24.800 a body, witnesses, or anything remotely resembling a crime scene. 63 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:28.199 The case went cold for six years, then when a 64 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:33.639 rookie State Police detective was assigned to reopen the investigation. 65 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:37.560 What followed reads like chapters from a Stephen King novel, 66 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:40.919 right down to the claim that the killer's grandmother was 67 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:45.400 practicing black magic to avenge efforts to bring him to justice. 68 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:49.479 The book that we're featuring this evening is Fruit of 69 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:53.280 the Poisonous Tree, with my special guest, journalist and author 70 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:57.000 Richard Carson. Welcome to the program, and thank you for 71 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:02.080 agreeing to this interview. Richard Carson, thank you for having me. 72 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:03.000 It's my pleasure. 73 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:08.199 Thank you very much. I want to make sure that 74 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:12.680 I'm pronouncing the name. Is it Caro or Cairo pronounced 75 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:14.560 the cap? 76 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:16.439 Yes, here we got it Carol. 77 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:21.439 Okay. Now, one of the questions I typically asked him, 78 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:26.279 what how did you come to write this book? What, 79 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:29.720 without giving anything away, what was it about this story? 80 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:33.040 Or how did you come to write this book? Frouit 81 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:34.959 of the Poisonous Tree? 82 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:40.120 Well, it I should mention. Fruit of the Poisonous Tree 83 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:46.079 is the e book which derives from the published version 84 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.959 which was called Murder and the Thumb. And the reason 85 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:53.600 for the title change is we did some editing and 86 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:56.680 tried to make the book a little more presentable to 87 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:01.600 people outside the area of where the crime occurred. How 88 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:05.920 I became interested in it. I had worked for the 89 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:12.319 Small Daily in Heuring County, which is the northernmost county 90 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:16.160 in the Thumb of Michigan. I had been there for 91 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:20.879 fifteen years. During that time, I'd covered two murder trials. 92 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:26.040 But I left the paper, the Small Daily in nineteen 93 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:33.600 eighty one, and we settled in Columbus, Ohio, and I 94 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:41.240 went to work for the Columbus Dispatch. During that time, 95 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:45.879 I was receiving the newspaper that I had left in Michigan, 96 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:53.439 and I became aware that the trial of Melvin Garza, 97 00:05:54.079 --> 00:06:03.959 the suspect and eventual accused in Robin's disappearance, was going 98 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:08.920 to be in here In County. Moved from Carroll, which 99 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:15.079 is in Tuscola County, to the immediate southwest. So now 100 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:19.240 I'm aware of the trial. I read the coverage. I 101 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:24.680 know that Lee McDowell, the post commander in Carol, who 102 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:28.399 I knew was a high schooler in bad Ax, Michigan, 103 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:36.040 where the paper was located, he had reopened the investigation. 104 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:41.480 And further, I was a close friend of the circuit 105 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:45.720 judge in here In County who would hear the case, 106 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:52.399 so I had some connections to the story. The coverage 107 00:06:55.639 --> 00:07:00.240 of the trial really piqued my interest, but believe me, 108 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:03.639 I had no idea what lay ahead. 109 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:10.639 Certainly, now we talked about Caro, Michigan, and so let's 110 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:13.240 describe this. You talk about it being a village, so 111 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:17.959 let's describe where it is in proximity to say, a 112 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:21.360 more notable, bigger city, and so describe where it is 113 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:24.920 and what type of place really Caro, Michigan is, and 114 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:27.160 it's in its size. So tell us a little bit 115 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:30.000 more about Carow, Michigan before we talk about. 116 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:36.600 Okay, Well, Caro is a town of under five thousand population. 117 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:42.000 It's located. Don't hold me the specifics here, but I'd 118 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:48.399 say it's about thirty five miles due east of Saginaw. Okay, 119 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:54.600 Carro is an agricultural I mean Tuscola County is an 120 00:07:54.639 --> 00:08:00.639 agricultural county, and Caro obviously is a county seat. Caro, 121 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:07.199 of course, is where Robin was working as a live 122 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:13.720 in babysitter when she disappeared, and Carrow's stuck to the village. 123 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:17.959 It could easily qualify as a city, but the locals 124 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:20.600 wanted to keep it a village, and I think they 125 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:26.480 wanted to keep the village, character of the community, and 126 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.079 I think that is why that moved in that direction. 127 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:37.200 Now, tell us about Robin and Danny Adams, and they 128 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:43.200 moved from Bay City to this rural carrow with and 129 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:47.039 their stepparents are Bill and Millie Timco. So tell us 130 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:51.919 their unofficial foster parents. And so tell us about this arrangement. 131 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:54.840 And a little bit more about Robin and her brother 132 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:56.360 Danny Adams. 133 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:05.080 Okay, let's they were born in in in Pennsylvania. Uh 134 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:17.000 but eventually uh their mother moved the family to uh 135 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:26.120 to Bay City. Uh the and I don't know if 136 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:32.960 it gets kind of circuitous here uh uh Vera Adams 137 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:41.360 uh uh claimed to be a widow uh and claimed 138 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:46.320 that her husband, the father of Dan and Robin, had 139 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:53.480 drowned in a swimming accident or something that's we're not 140 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:55.200 certainly not sure about that. 141 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:56.279 Uh. 142 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:04.240 Uh Vera ran into Bill Timcoe in his travels while 143 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:09.000 she was still in in Pennsylvania, and they kind of 144 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:14.600 became an item. And the book traces how how they 145 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:19.600 met and and the times that they traveled, traveled around 146 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:21.919 the country, and they worked at county fairs and one 147 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:26.480 thing and another usually during that time. Uh Robin and 148 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:32.600 Danny were with relatives. Vera came from a large, large family, 149 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:39.519 so eventually they moved to Bay City, and Vera was 150 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:44.519 still very much interested in Bill Timpcoe and Bill Uh 151 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:51.639 by this time had married and lived had settled in Carol, 152 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:59.879 and so he would. Bill would visit Vera in Bay City, 153 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:05.480 and he took a liking to Robin and Danny and 154 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:09.159 took them fishing and camping and one thing and another, 155 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:13.279 And Danny had a real attraction to Bill as a 156 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:14.120 father figure. 157 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:18.000 And UH. 158 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.360 One of the painful situations that developed was when Bill 159 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:26.720 assured Danny that he was not his father, even though 160 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.559 he would have liked to think that he was. 161 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:31.200 So UH. 162 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:36.480 At that point, the kids are in Bay City, Robinson 163 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:39.039 and Dan He are in high school. 164 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:44.320 UH and UH. 165 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:50.799 Danny starts pushing to uh live with Bill and Bill's 166 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:57.080 wife Millie, and their children in Caro and Vera. Their 167 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:01.679 mother resists this at first, but then eventually she gives 168 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:08.080 in and that they moved to Carol and eventually that's 169 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:16.240 where Robin met Melvin Guiza and eventually Danny, which is 170 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:19.600 explained in vivid detail in the book. Danny kind of 171 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:23.039 wore out his welcome with the Timcoes and he ended 172 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:29.840 up they returned him to his mother and she shipped 173 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:34.559 him back to his grandparents in Pennsylvania. So so so 174 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:38.679 that's that's how that's how the kids got to Carol 175 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:53.600 and h Robin met Melvin's sister Norah, who who eventually 176 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.200 had a role in Robin's disappearance, and we can get 177 00:12:58.240 --> 00:12:59.000 into that later. 178 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:00.000 Uh. 179 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:05.399 At any rate, she introduced Robin to her brother, and 180 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:08.200 that's when their relationship started. 181 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:14.919 Now, you start this book and introduce some characters early 182 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:17.240 on that are of course very very important to the 183 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:19.559 entire story and to the end and to the trial 184 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:25.840 and every aspect of the story. So let's talk about 185 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:30.159 Dan Miller, because you introduced Dan Miller early on, and 186 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:33.399 then of course he is a central figure in this 187 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:40.000 story as well. And also you talk about the Robin 188 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:44.120 and her brother and the other family members in the 189 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:47.519 Timcos sitting around and fooling around and having an interest 190 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:51.600 in the occult satanism witchcraft. But it starts off with 191 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:54.360 the Wuigi board, So tell us a little bit about 192 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.200 the Ouiji board experience, because I think it's very important 193 00:13:58.200 --> 00:13:59.120 to this story later on. 194 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:09.080 Uh. Well, basically, Cheryl Cheryl Uh uh Tyson Uh was 195 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.159 Millie's daughter by a previous marriage. 196 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:14.120 UH. 197 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.919 And she was just a little bit younger than Robin. 198 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.200 And they became real like real sisters. 199 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:23.159 UH. 200 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:27.320 Once once the uh the Adams children moved in with 201 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:32.600 the Timpcos and it was Cheryl who suggested that they 202 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:38.919 experiment with Luigi Award uh and Uh. It started out 203 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:44.480 innocently enough. And I don't want to get too much 204 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:49.919 in into the to the paranormal in terms of do 205 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:53.159 I believe these things or not believe them? I leave 206 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:56.559 that up to the readers. But there there is no 207 00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:04.000 question that problems emanated from the Luigia Board experience, not 208 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:08.240 the least of which was the fact that at one 209 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:13.279 point a entity I guess is the best word I 210 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:19.720 can use. She identified herself as Glenda, and she was 211 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:25.000 someone that they could communicate with with Uisia Board. And 212 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:28.799 in this, I mean, you have two teenage girls here, 213 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:33.960 fifteen years old I think at the time Robin Manben sixteen, 214 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:41.840 and it was just kind of a gleeful little adventure 215 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:44.559 that they were involving themselves in. 216 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:45.120 But it. 217 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:50.360 Moved to a dark side and they began to have 218 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:54.639 hear footsteps on the stairs when no one was there, 219 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.320 and strange sounds in the attic that had joined their bedroom, 220 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.360 and the lights fly she on and off, and it 221 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:06.919 just got completely out of hand. And during during this 222 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:13.519 extended experience with the Ouija board, the girls asked different 223 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:17.600 things about their future, Cheryl about whether she'd marry and 224 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:23.440 have children, and Robin for some reason, asked how long 225 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:28.279 she would live. And at that point, the Ouija board 226 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:33.519 predicted that she would die before her seventeenth birthday, which 227 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:40.399 was ominous and not totally accurate because she disappeared six 228 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:46.840 weeks before her eighteenth birthday. So once all these phenomena 229 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.240 took place in the house, the girls no longer wanted 230 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:57.360 to stay in their bedroom. They were frightened. So Millie 231 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:02.320 called a local minister and he came to the house 232 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:07.599 to perform I guess you'd call it an exorcism of 233 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:15.559 whatever spirits were complicating everyone's life life in the house. 234 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:22.200 And when when the minister arrived, the neighbor, and the 235 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:26.079 neighbor was was a kind of a strange fellow. His 236 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:30.240 name was Aubrey Vincent. He was an artist, a painter 237 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:35.359 and sculptor, and he lived a spartan life in a 238 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:39.920 one room cabin that was on property that was right 239 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:44.039 next door to where the Tempicals lived, and he was 240 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:48.960 friendly with the with the kids, and they would sit 241 00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:51.400 around the campfire and there was probably a little bit 242 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:58.119 of pot smoking and beer drinking going on because he 243 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.799 he kind of lived out of the way and he 244 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:04.640 was off the road, so it was there was an 245 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:09.079 element of privacy there for kids that kids, typically adolescents, 246 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:14.000 really looked for that. So when when the minister showed up, 247 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:19.240 Aubrey Uh noticed that he sees this man that he 248 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:21.799 doesn't recognize, and he sees that he's holding a Bible, 249 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:27.400 and so he launches a rant and denounces the minister 250 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:34.640 and created a confrontation of sorts, but the Uh the 251 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:39.160 minister shook it off, and Aubrey eventually stopped off and 252 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:44.519 that was the end of that. But in my frame 253 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:49.400 of reference, by the time you've gone through these various steps, 254 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:56.000 this story is starting to sound really a little bit strange. 255 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:02.160 And I had, as they said, I had seen nothing yet, 256 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:05.599 because there was a lot more down the road that 257 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:10.599 was going to complicate my research and hopefully make the 258 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.200 book more compelling and interesting. 259 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:22.319 Now you talked about Marvin Garza and Melvin pardon me, 260 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.160 Melvin Garza, and you talked about a car accident, and 261 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:28.359 you include this very early on in the book because 262 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:34.240 you feel it's important. So and people at the time, 263 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.480 like Heather Kate, said that it made a difference. So 264 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:40.759 tell us about briefly about the car accident and Melboyn 265 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:43.759 before the car accident, afterwards, and why it might have 266 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:45.200 made a difference in his life. 267 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:52.519 This accident, Okay, okay, Well, what happened. Melvin incidentally is 268 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:58.400 a very intelligent and very a very skilled person. He 269 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:01.640 had a builder's license when he was eighteen years old. 270 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:10.440 The car accident occurred. What happened a group of boys, 271 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:15.319 Melvin and his class three of his classmates were involved 272 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:19.119 in a home construction project that was part of their 273 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:26.160 high school experience. And this particular home was not building Carol, 274 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:31.000 but in Mayville, which is to the south of Carol. 275 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:37.000 I think it's about eight or nine miles. So they 276 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.759 pretty much finished this house and there was going to 277 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:47.640 be some of the boys volunteered to come and help 278 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:55.599 their teacher clean up the refuse and things that are 279 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.279 left after you complete a construction project. To kind of 280 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:04.279 clean up this. And so the boys were through with 281 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:09.240 classes and they arranged they arranged to go to Mayville 282 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.200 and clean up this house and kind of a really 283 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:19.400 pleased their teacher, and so they did that. Well, one 284 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:21.839 of the boys, and I renamed him in the book 285 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:28.039 for I think good reason, one of the boys drove 286 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:32.599 the other three to Mayville and they did their little project. 287 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:35.400 And they were on the way back and there was 288 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:41.559 another group of students from cass City, which is well 289 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:44.920 it would be let's see, to the northeast of Carol 290 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:50.680 and they too had been involved in this construction project, 291 00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:52.839 and they were there and they of course they were 292 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:57.559 in another car. Well, as it happened, the boys kind 293 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:03.480 of the the Carroll boys left ahead of the Cassidy boys, 294 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:07.720 but the Cassidy boys caught up with them and pulled 295 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.200 alongside and kind of challenged him to a drag race, 296 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:16.160 and that commenced and at a high rate of speed 297 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:27.640 and uh eventually Mike Clark is the driver of the 298 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:31.359 car with the Carroll boys. Uh, he sees an approaching 299 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:36.039 car oncoming car and he tries to uh kind. 300 00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:37.240 Of uh uh. 301 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:42.799 Break and get control of the car because he's going 302 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:46.200 so fast, and it's and he skids into his shoulder 303 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:52.359 and and uh the car then he loses control, it 304 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:57.599 crosses the center and and uh it hits the oncoming car. 305 00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:00.599 It wasn't a total head on and it was more 306 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:05.519 or less one side of one car hitting the side 307 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:08.519 of the other. The woman in the car, the older woman, 308 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:14.799 was injured. The driver, Mike Clark, was killed. 309 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:16.640 He died. 310 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:21.039 The boys were all thrown out of the car and 311 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:26.119 he died right then and there. Melvin suffered a broken 312 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:32.720 collar bone and some other injuries, and one of the 313 00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:39.279 other boys had a broken leg. Melvin and I talked 314 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:42.759 to many many of his friends in forming this impression. 315 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:50.240 They said that he took Mike's death really hard, and 316 00:23:50.359 --> 00:23:52.920 that he even went as far in some conversations as 317 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:55.680 to say that he wished it had been him instead 318 00:23:55.720 --> 00:24:04.720 of Mike for whatever reason. And the people I talked 319 00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:11.359 to his classmates to each and everyone said that Melvin's 320 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:18.680 personality seemed to change dramatically after that accident. And I 321 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:25.599 did mention the Heather Kates again a pseudonym, and she 322 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:32.279 injected a bizarre dimension into claiming that the young fellow 323 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:37.960 who was killed in the accident was not whatever, not 324 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:43.480 what he seemed to be, and this notion was rejected 325 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:47.359 by anybody and everybody. So I wasn't sure where that 326 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:52.400 was going. But inasmuch as Heather kates as a high 327 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:58.359 school or practice witchcraft, here we go again. And Heather 328 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:02.000 has an experience leader that we may get into. That 329 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:05.359 really justifies their place in the story. 330 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:12.200 Now, Melvin Garza comes from a big family and his 331 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:17.640 sister you had already mentioned it. 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See website for details. 354 00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:21.519 Melvin So tell us a little bit more about the 355 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:25.559 guards of family mothers. Clara So, tell us a little 356 00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:29.359 bit more about the family and how close Nora and 357 00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:31.079 Melvin are in age. 358 00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:37.799 Yeah, she was. She had just turned She had just 359 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.599 turned seventeen, and that's significant. And I don't know how 360 00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:47.480 much legal minutia you want to get into here, but 361 00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:58.240 Nora had just turned seventeen when Robin disappeared. And I 362 00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:02.119 guess the belief was Melvin broke into the house where 363 00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:05.480 Robin was. After Robin graduated from high school, she took 364 00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:09.200 a job as a living babysitter, and after she broke 365 00:27:09.319 --> 00:27:16.240 up with Melvin, a breakup that he violently h opposed U, 366 00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:23.359 he broke in and beat her up and from from 367 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:26.880 that point on that was a little more I think 368 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:29.319 than two weeks from the time. 369 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:32.079 That she disappeared. 370 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.920 Uh. The family, the guy's a family. There nine children. 371 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:47.799 Melvin was the second eldest, his older brother Augustine. In fact, 372 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:51.359 his older brother Augustine was in charge of the family 373 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:55.359 while while the parents were in South Texas visiting relatives. 374 00:27:56.599 --> 00:27:59.079 At the time that Robin disappeared. 375 00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:01.000 Uh. 376 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:08.680 No, as I said, she had just turned seventeen. And 377 00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:19.240 there was actually a possibility that Robin, that Robin's disappearance 378 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:24.000 or the ultimately as we learned, her murder, could have 379 00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:30.680 occurred before Nora turned seventeen, and that would have been 380 00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:36.319 significant in terms of the juvenile court jurisdiction and the 381 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:40.279 fact that she might not have been incarcerated, which again 382 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:46.400 we'll get into that the family. Bill Garza was a 383 00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:52.480 self made man. He and Clara started a house I 384 00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:55.960 think it was back in the fifties, and one of 385 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:01.359 these deals where they dug a basement and smith block 386 00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:05.200 construction and and resided in that and build up the 387 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:09.480 house as they build up the family. And uh uh, 388 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:14.039 it's a good family and and and Bill and Clara 389 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:18.240 are are good people. And and Clara thought the world 390 00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:22.960 of of Robin and was completely crushed when the reality 391 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:28.720 of her disappearance came to to the foe. Uh Bill 392 00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:34.680 and and uh Melvin. Uh, you know, we're kind of 393 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.720 they had some characteristics in common. And I think that 394 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:47.759 uh as as uh Melvin became an adolescent. Typically father 395 00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:52.839 and son didn't always see eyed ie uh and Uh 396 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:59.079 but uh uh Bill was a typical uh Mexican American 397 00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:07.200 uh patriarch and ruled the roost and kept order. And 398 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.599 with a family that large, you pretty much need a 399 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:18.039 controlling figure you're going to be consigned to eternal chaos. 400 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:21.359 They were good people. I got to meet them and 401 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:24.920