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<v Speaker 1>When I first read this article, the first thing I

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<v Speaker 1>thought about was animal farm, where all animals are created equal,

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<v Speaker 1>but some are more equal than others. So in this situation,

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<v Speaker 1>though we're talking about a certain type of animal, are

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<v Speaker 1>some humans more equal than others? Steven Well, Doctor Carl R.

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<v Speaker 2>Truman of Grove City College wants us to consider if

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<v Speaker 2>children born via IVF and surrogacy are actually human, which

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<v Speaker 2>he says, yes, of course, but as certain that a

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<v Speaker 2>society in general can not say the same. Yes. This

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<v Speaker 2>doctor of church history feels that a society that values

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<v Speaker 2>means of procreation, such as in vitual fertilization and surrogacy,

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<v Speaker 2>cannot value the resulting human. After all, IVF routinely sees

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<v Speaker 2>multiple eggs fertilized during the procedure, and those extra eggs

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<v Speaker 2>are discarded as waste. So how can the one lucky

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<v Speaker 2>fertilized egg be considered more than the others? How can

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<v Speaker 2>a society that views a fertilized egg nine months later

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<v Speaker 2>as more than a commodity which was bought and paid for.

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<v Speaker 2>This story was published by The Christian Post on November twentieth,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks Steven, Now I've got to say that. Obviously, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't come from the same position Truman does. I think

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<v Speaker 1>IVF is an absolutely wonderful thing, and we should be

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<v Speaker 1>encouraging people who want to be parents to be parents.

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<v Speaker 1>But what do you think, Stephen about this idea of

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<v Speaker 1>him equating fertilized eggs which fully developed humans.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it's just like a new shade of

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<v Speaker 2>lipstick on a very old, tired pig.

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<v Speaker 3>The fact that a wonderful picture, Steven, you very welcome.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's the same old idea that you'll as soon

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<v Speaker 2>as that egg is fertilized, it must be a human

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<v Speaker 2>being that is, you know, equal in every regard to

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<v Speaker 2>a fully formed, fully developed human that is outside of

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<v Speaker 2>the bomb. Which is just this common talking point that

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<v Speaker 2>we keep on getting bludgeoned on the head over and

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<v Speaker 2>over again, and like it's discouraging that not only like that,

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<v Speaker 2>people like Truman aren't content with controlling women's bodies and

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<v Speaker 2>what goes on inside of them, but now they want

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<v Speaker 2>to also control the means by which women can conceive

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<v Speaker 2>or are are forced to conceive. It's just this, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's this the same circus that goes on and on

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<v Speaker 2>and on and it's so discouraging. It's so, it's so,

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<v Speaker 2>it's so dishonest for someone especially because he tries to

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<v Speaker 2>like pull this gotcha in the article where he says, like,

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<v Speaker 2>should a human that's conceived this way be considered a human? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, but those other people over there, they can't

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<v Speaker 2>consider that, they can't think that. Like, it's so it's

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<v Speaker 2>so dishonest to be trying to take straw Man and

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<v Speaker 2>the opposition and just like paint their position for them,

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<v Speaker 2>and especially when that isn't what people on the side

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<v Speaker 2>of the issue would think at all. And it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>deeply disturbing that this professor, that this doctor of church history,

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<v Speaker 2>who should know that the Christian view of life beginning

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<v Speaker 2>at conception, which is only like one hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 2>years old, for the vast majority of the Church's history,

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<v Speaker 2>this has not been their view, and yet now he

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<v Speaker 2>needs to be a champion of it.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, if there's anything the Catholic Church, our churches

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<v Speaker 1>in general, I should say in this situation probably should

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<v Speaker 1>avoid anything that has to do with kids. They should

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<v Speaker 1>probably just keep silent, especially when you start talking about

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<v Speaker 1>things like ethics. Now a j speaking ethics he'd be

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<v Speaker 1>brought up a lot of what he called ethical concerns

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<v Speaker 1>about artificial conception. Could you give us a little more

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<v Speaker 1>detail on how this relates to IVS and sergusing.

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<v Speaker 4>This specific article was written by someone who's a Christian.

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<v Speaker 4>Clearly the website is a Christian websites, so you can

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<v Speaker 4>see the bias on it, okay, And I think that

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<v Speaker 4>I get the sentiment out of the core message of

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<v Speaker 4>the article, But I found so many things that he

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<v Speaker 4>says problematic that it was hard to focus on the

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<v Speaker 4>main idea. So let's let's start with that so that

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<v Speaker 4>it doesn't get lost. It seems to me that he

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<v Speaker 4>was worried about the future ethical implications of artificial conception

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<v Speaker 4>because he asked whether in the future parents may choose

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<v Speaker 4>designer babies, so to speak, where they get to choose,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, the features that they want. And I'm quoting

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<v Speaker 4>him here. He said that what of the children who

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<v Speaker 4>make it to term but do not meet the specifications

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<v Speaker 4>of the parents who paid good money for a particular outcome.

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<v Speaker 4>I think Steven mentioned that earlier. He said, are those

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<v Speaker 4>obligations defined by legal contracts such that perhaps they can

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<v Speaker 4>simply return them to the manufacturer on their warranty for

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<v Speaker 4>a refund. I think I understand that concern, and I

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<v Speaker 4>think is valid, but it's one that we have already

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<v Speaker 4>been looking at thoroughly as far as edicts of these procedures.

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<v Speaker 4>So they have nothing to do with IVF for surrogacy

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<v Speaker 4>and helping people who truly want to be comparents but

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<v Speaker 4>they're facing infertility issues. He's just trying to mix ethics

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<v Speaker 4>with his individual religious faith, and we don't need to

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<v Speaker 4>do that, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that there'll be plenty of time between now

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<v Speaker 1>and if when that type of situation of designing your

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<v Speaker 1>children is actually a scientific possibility, and there's going to

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<v Speaker 1>be a lot of court cases in between. We've already

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<v Speaker 1>had court cases regarding IV. One in Alabama kind of

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<v Speaker 1>turned up set the Apple cord a while back, so

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<v Speaker 1>we see these things. So I think it's getting ahead

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<v Speaker 1>of himself for dishonest reasons. And I wanted to switch

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<v Speaker 1>over to you, Scott, because I wanted to touch on that.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you feel like this is kind of a pain

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<v Speaker 1>switch technique where this is less about IV and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>more about something else you feel strongly about, like abortion.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I wouldn't say it's not about IVF, but I

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<v Speaker 3>think he's definitely trying to make a transition to I

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<v Speaker 3>think he's trying It seemed like he was trying to

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<v Speaker 3>set up an argument for against abortion rights. And it

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<v Speaker 3>starts right from the get go. And I think this

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<v Speaker 3>is very ironic. And that's a word I've been using

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<v Speaker 3>a lot this week. It's ironic that he bemoans the

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<v Speaker 3>fact of what he describes as and this is a

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<v Speaker 3>quote the child in the womb is treated not as

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<v Speaker 3>a person but as a thing, not as a subject,

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<v Speaker 3>but as an object, not as intrinsically valuable, but as

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<v Speaker 3>having value only as instrumental to some other end. Excuse me.

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<v Speaker 3>But at the same time, the entire purpose of his

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<v Speaker 3>post is to dehumanize pro choice people or people that

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<v Speaker 3>support this IVF option. And so while he's pointing out

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<v Speaker 3>how these people are dehumanizing what he calls human beings,

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<v Speaker 3>his very active doing that is dehumanizing them. He wants

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<v Speaker 3>to put them in the case of being the other.

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<v Speaker 3>And it has to do with some of the language

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<v Speaker 3>that he's using too, this bait and switch. The title

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<v Speaker 3>talks about quote children born by IVF, hinting that he's

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<v Speaker 3>talking about living independent children. You know this this first

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<v Speaker 3>grader is that? Is that who we're talking about? Is

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<v Speaker 3>this is this child, this first grader that was born

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<v Speaker 3>via IVF is is this a real human being? But

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<v Speaker 3>then he suddenly and and gradually shifts the attention over

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<v Speaker 3>to to the unborn, to a fetus, to an embryo,

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<v Speaker 3>to a fertilized egg and so. And in addition to

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<v Speaker 3>that language that he used in the in the title,

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<v Speaker 3>he specifically started out the article talking about parents of

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<v Speaker 3>children that would come up to him after his talks

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<v Speaker 3>and say, do you think my child is a human being?

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<v Speaker 3>And so he's putting this context of children in our

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<v Speaker 3>mind and then using the same terminology to talk about

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<v Speaker 3>a fetus or an embryo or a z eegot or

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<v Speaker 3>whatever anything post conception. Uh, you know, he's using that

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<v Speaker 3>same terminology. So it's it's yes, it's a it's a

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<v Speaker 3>and switch. It's a subtle switch, but it's still there.

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<v Speaker 3>And yes, I know that he considers an embryo to

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<v Speaker 3>be a child, and so when he sees using that

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<v Speaker 3>word appropriate in that circumstance, But it can't be a

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<v Speaker 3>mistake that that there's just so much that he is

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<v Speaker 3>just clearly, clearly at the beginning of the article he's

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<v Speaker 3>talking about born children, and clearly later in the article

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<v Speaker 3>he's not talking about born children. So whether or not

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<v Speaker 3>he still considers them to be children, he definitely was

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<v Speaker 3>changing his tune throughout the throughout that article, and so

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<v Speaker 3>I think that kind of leads into the emotional play

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<v Speaker 3>he's playing on our emotional love for children, For our children,

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<v Speaker 3>we want to protect our children, we want to take

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<v Speaker 3>care of our children, we want to stand up for

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<v Speaker 3>our children, and he's trying to kind of push those

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<v Speaker 3>feelings onto, you know, onto a fertilized egg, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>really underhanded. I would think that if there, if there

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<v Speaker 3>was a good argument to be had there, he would

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<v Speaker 3>use it. But he's not. So, you know, what does

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<v Speaker 3>that tell you?

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<v Speaker 4>I'm completely with you, there's Scott. I think that it's

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<v Speaker 4>clear that Truman has no idea about biology, or maybe,

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<v Speaker 4>as many Christians do, he gets his biology and human

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<v Speaker 4>anatomy education straight from the Bible. Because he is either

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<v Speaker 4>making up definitions towards that much his opinion, or mixing

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<v Speaker 4>up abortion, reproductive girl embryos, babies, surrogacy, and ideas all

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<v Speaker 4>in the same bag. He claims that because modern humans

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<v Speaker 4>now have all of these options, embryos have gone from

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<v Speaker 4>being considered humans to being considered things or items or commodities.

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<v Speaker 4>First of all, a clump of cells who was never

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<v Speaker 4>considered a for human being, and it's not in the

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<v Speaker 4>same sense that we consider one who is full term

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<v Speaker 4>or already born, as you said, So that's what we

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<v Speaker 4>call the membryos. And secondly, he's attempting to use, as

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<v Speaker 4>you also mentioned, the appeal to motion fallacy to defend

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<v Speaker 4>his misinformation to and his misinformed positions. Rather but add

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<v Speaker 4>it is it's just a bunch of anti scientific bullshit

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<v Speaker 4>that my brain is just having a hard time processing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that both of you are very rude

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<v Speaker 1>and noticing that switch because you weren't supposed to You're

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<v Speaker 1>supposed to be all weepy and involved in this story.

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<v Speaker 1>And then he just slips a Zye Goode in there,

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<v Speaker 1>and before you know it, you know he's going to

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<v Speaker 1>want you to pay child support on it and put

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<v Speaker 1>it into its college fund, because that's really what he's doing.

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<v Speaker 1>He's equating those two when come on, that's not even

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<v Speaker 1>close to what we're talking about But Stephen, I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to bring you in on this. I know I've talked

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<v Speaker 1>about the argument he made about IVF. I think you

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<v Speaker 1>touched on the patriarchal aspect. But what does he have

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<v Speaker 1>to say about couples who can't conceive? In what his

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<v Speaker 1>traditional hole in the sheet wagh is? What should they do?

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<v Speaker 2>What does he think? Like tied to your question. One

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<v Speaker 2>one thought that went through my head when reading this

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<v Speaker 2>article is my inn assumption because I don't I haven't

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't gone for Thanksgiving dinner with this guy. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know anything about his family. What are the odds?

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<v Speaker 2>What are the odds that this motherfucker has had any

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<v Speaker 2>difficulty conceiving children? Does he have the slightest clue of

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<v Speaker 2>what the pain that goes through a couple's relationship when

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<v Speaker 2>they can't conceive, when that's something that is so desperately

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<v Speaker 2>and especially in their frecking Christian context, where like this

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<v Speaker 2>is the blessing of God and that if you aren't

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<v Speaker 2>able to conceive, then oh maybe there's something wrong with

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<v Speaker 2>you that you aren't able to receive God's blessed way.

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<v Speaker 2>What are the odds that he has a fucking clue

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<v Speaker 2>about what it is that he's talking about. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to guess zero. I imagine that he has

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<v Speaker 2>never had issues in this department. And so it seems like,

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<v Speaker 2>what what would his stance be if he had to

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<v Speaker 2>go through that trauma, if he had to go through

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<v Speaker 2>that hell, would he still be so adamant about this

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<v Speaker 2>or is this just based out of his own entitlement

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<v Speaker 2>and his own privilege. Yeah, so he believes that people

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<v Speaker 2>who struggle to conceive should not conceive outside of a

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<v Speaker 2>miracle of God. And of course the woman who is

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<v Speaker 2>pregnant and doesn't want to be pregnant, she should remain

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<v Speaker 2>pregnant at any cost. And it's just this entitled bullshit

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<v Speaker 2>that we just hear constantly. I'm so I feel I

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<v Speaker 2>feel I feel a little bit of cognitant cognitive dissidence

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<v Speaker 2>when I say that, I'm just tired of hearing, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>old white guy's opinions on abortion and women's bodies, like,

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<v Speaker 2>and yet here I am, as you know, a cis

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<v Speaker 2>white guy saying, hey, shouldn't we should stop giving so

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<v Speaker 2>many fucks about what happens in women's bodies, And yet

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<v Speaker 2>we have to talk out about this kind of stuff

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<v Speaker 2>like can we just can we just put women in

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<v Speaker 2>the center of these conversations? Why why that's so dangerous?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, number one, women should keep silent in the church.

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<v Speaker 1>So when you have that type of mentality, of course

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<v Speaker 1>white men should because I mean it, really it really

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<v Speaker 1>does need to be white men. White men need to

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<v Speaker 1>make these decisions. So does these lesser qualified women know

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<v Speaker 1>what to do? And I say that thoroughly tongue in cheak,

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<v Speaker 1>But when they say that, with their actions and activities,

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<v Speaker 1>they're not being tongue in cheek at all, as you know.

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<v Speaker 1>And unfortunately that's why people like you, Steven, and myself

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<v Speaker 1>and Scott have to sit in time and again talk

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<v Speaker 1>about issues that the truth is, we shouldn't need to

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<v Speaker 1>have an opinion on, because as I talked to someone

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<v Speaker 1>recently about actually was ray is that because they're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about a story we did recently about how they felt

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<v Speaker 1>abortion to be discussed at school in sex sech or

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<v Speaker 1>education classes. And I'm like, well, really it starts out

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<v Speaker 1>like this abortion exists, okay in a story, because you

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<v Speaker 1>can't pretend it doesn't. But they want to pretend it doesn't.

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<v Speaker 1>And as long as they do that. Unfortunately we're stuck

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<v Speaker 1>doing this and sorry about that. I wasn't mad at you, Scott.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just annoyed too, because I mean, Steven, because it's

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<v Speaker 1>just as annoying to me now.

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<v Speaker 4>I said this on another show recently. I think it

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<v Speaker 4>was actually under nonprofits that I appreciate people like you,

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<v Speaker 4>guys men that speak up about these topics and the

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<v Speaker 4>reason why it shouldn't be this way. But the reason

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<v Speaker 4>why is because the type of people that are coming

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<v Speaker 4>up with these ideologies like in the article are generally

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<v Speaker 4>white males, and they are not going to listen to women.

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<v Speaker 4>So the fact that there are men that are speaking

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<v Speaker 4>of about this means that they are more likely to

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<v Speaker 4>listen to that. So I appreciate you, guys.

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<v Speaker 1>Scott about this comparison to IVF and commodity and the

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<v Speaker 1>context we talked about Catholic charities and adopt to Gauge's adoption agencies.

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<v Speaker 1>What does that say about the idea of childbearing already

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<v Speaker 1>being a commercial endeavor. I mean, adoption is big business,

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<v Speaker 1>So I don't know what he's talking about trying to pretend.

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<v Speaker 2>That for sure.

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<v Speaker 3>For sure, he kept I mean throughout the article he

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<v Speaker 3>uses words that are specifically intended to pull to mind

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<v Speaker 3>this sterile environment, this hospital environment. That he uses words

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<v Speaker 3>like commodity, he uses words like transaction, he uses he

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<v Speaker 3>talks about the money exchanging hands and so forth. And

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<v Speaker 3>so I looked at the This is from the Catholic

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<v Speaker 3>Charities website. Quote what is the average cost of adopting

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<v Speaker 3>a child? The cost depends on the type of adoption.

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<v Speaker 3>There are several variables that contribute to the cost. Typically,

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<v Speaker 3>a private domestic adoption is between twelve thousand to forty

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<v Speaker 3>thousand dollars. However, please do not be intimidated by the cost.

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<v Speaker 3>There are several budgeting options to financing your adoption, such

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<v Speaker 3>as employer benefits, adoption tax credit grants, and special fundraising.

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<v Speaker 3>That doesn't sound at all like a commercial financial exchange

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<v Speaker 3>of money for goods and services at all, right, I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>you couldn't get more. I mean, that's exactly the kind

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<v Speaker 3>of thing that he's railing against. And it's not just

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<v Speaker 3>Catholic Charities either. According to HHS, they're more than eight

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<v Speaker 3>thousand faith based child placement agencies in the US. In

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<v Speaker 3>addition to that, according to a BARNA group, five percent

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<v Speaker 3>of practicing Christians in the United States have adopted children,

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<v Speaker 3>which is more than twice the rate of all US adults.

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<v Speaker 3>And they put that forward as a kind of a brag.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, our people adopt more children. That's a transaction

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<v Speaker 3>of flesh for money. You pay somebody to get this

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<v Speaker 3>to get have this child with you, and so, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>it seems a little bit hypocritical.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess that.

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<v Speaker 3>Means Christians are really the main group of flesh pedlars

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<v Speaker 3>in the US. And you know, I'll check back on

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<v Speaker 3>his bloglets next week because I'm sure he's going to

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<v Speaker 3>be talking about that next week.

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<v Speaker 1>Not well, Steve and I I something you said earlier

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<v Speaker 1>that sort of the touch on that. Yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 1>that the odds of him having to deal with infertility

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<v Speaker 1>and anywhere in his family are maybe slightly above zero,

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<v Speaker 1>but statistically zero. This this is somebody talking completely out

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<v Speaker 1>of their ass. Now do you find that Truman's language

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<v Speaker 1>reflects a larger issue of dehumanization and moral authority? Do

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<v Speaker 1>you see that what he's trying to perpetrate here? Why

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<v Speaker 1>and why do you think he's doing that?

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<v Speaker 2>Like, yeah, why is he appealing using moral authority? Because

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<v Speaker 2>it's the only it's the only rationale he can cling to. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's only through through this kind of moralization of how

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<v Speaker 2>of controlling how people get pregnant. It's like, what other,

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<v Speaker 2>what other tactic does he have other than to appeal

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<v Speaker 2>to his own sense of morality, as if, as if

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<v Speaker 2>other of as of other people aren't entitled to a

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<v Speaker 2>different perspective on the moral ethics of conceiving Like how what?

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<v Speaker 2>What an incredibly personal and private matter for him to

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<v Speaker 2>try to stick his orient.

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<v Speaker 4>I think it's definitely about control, Like it's just said.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, there was a quote in the article that

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<v Speaker 4>I found rely ironic. He said, well, live in a

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<v Speaker 4>time where having children is increasingly regarded as dangerous, And

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<v Speaker 4>I thought to myself, well, who the fuck exactly is

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<v Speaker 4>making it dangerous for women to consider pregnancy dangerous? Like

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<v Speaker 4>people like him? Exactly, people like him Christian nationalists that

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<v Speaker 4>want to micro manage women's bodies. They want to take

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<v Speaker 4>away the reproductive care, They want to take away access

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<v Speaker 4>to abortion, and at the same time that takes away

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<v Speaker 4>or bodily autonomy. They want to choose when we're why

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<v Speaker 4>how and went home? We get to have children? And

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<v Speaker 4>then later he has the nerve to say that the

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<v Speaker 4>absence of such desire to have children should sorely be

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<v Speaker 4>a cause for concern. I mean, people like him are

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<v Speaker 4>a major cause of our lack of desire to have children, okay,

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<v Speaker 4>and because they just want to micro manage every single

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<v Speaker 4>step of it. And now he also wants to manage

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<v Speaker 4>our desires. So if we don't have specific desires, suddenly

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<v Speaker 4>we are seeing a watch out for that cat lady,

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<v Speaker 4>you know. So it seems like they just ultimately want

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<v Speaker 4>to dominate and control women. They want to go back

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<v Speaker 4>to the biblical times where women were the property of

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<v Speaker 4>their husbands.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe maybe we'd be more excited about having kids if

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<v Speaker 2>there wasn't this great risk of them getting gunned down

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<v Speaker 2>at school.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, you mentioned that. And also there's the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that when we start talking about wealth disparity and

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<v Speaker 1>the consolidation of wealth and the top percent, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>one percent, want to know why people don't want to

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<v Speaker 1>have kids, because one reason is they can't afford them.

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<v Speaker 1>And so now we're talking about the ones that are

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<v Speaker 1>trying to and it seems odd that they're trying to

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<v Speaker 1>create a stumbling block for this. Now Scott was going

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<v Speaker 1>to wrap things up, but I wanted to know if

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<v Speaker 1>it's anything you wanted to cover before before I do.

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<v Speaker 3>So I just to tag on to what AJ was

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<v Speaker 3>talking about. There's a strong inverse correlation between the health

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<v Speaker 3>of delivering mothers and the religiosity both worldwide. If you

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<v Speaker 3>count country back country, the more religious country is, the

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<v Speaker 3>lower the life expectancy and lower the health outcomes of pregnancy,

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<v Speaker 3>and the lower the religiosity leads to safety, longer life, longer,

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<v Speaker 3>healthier lives for the mothers and for the children. And

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<v Speaker 3>it's not just worldwide country to country, it's also within

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<v Speaker 3>the United States state distate, and so there's plenty of

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<v Speaker 3>evidence to show that they are in fact harming you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the American community and the worldwide community. And so it's

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<v Speaker 3>that that I see. I think we see why Stephen

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<v Speaker 3>was saying that that's all they got. You know, they

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<v Speaker 3>have these emotional appeals and you know, that's it there.

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<v Speaker 3>He's the man's a hammer and he sees everything as

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<v Speaker 3>a nail.

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<v Speaker 4>And speaking of the harm that they're doing, we just

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<v Speaker 4>had another case of a woman dying from being refused

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<v Speaker 4>emergency care during a miscarage here in Texas. It was

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<v Speaker 4>a teenager, just a few days ago, eighteen years old.

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<v Speaker 4>They are killing women trying to save these clumps of

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<v Speaker 4>cells based on a two thousand year old sex manual,

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<v Speaker 4>incredibly harmful teachings.

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<v Speaker 3>And then they dare call themselves pro life, get the

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<v Speaker 3>fuck out of here.

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<v Speaker 4>But only it's only their life before it is born.

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<v Speaker 1>It's pro forced birth. Because when they tell me their

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<v Speaker 1>pro life if I'm like, oh, sports support, universal weldcare, healthcare,

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<v Speaker 1>you're on a basic living wage? What about housing? How

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<v Speaker 1>do you feel?

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<v Speaker 2>No?

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<v Speaker 1>No, no, no, I don't know. No, I think women

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<v Speaker 1>should have babies. Oh, okay, you're not pro life, you're

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<v Speaker 1>something else.