Speaker 1: Making sure they don't have to do all that things
Speaker 1: that's easy to get wrong and very boiler play stuff.
Speaker 1: And then we build you know tools on top of that.
Speaker 1: The building blocks you know, solve the logging problems, so
Speaker 1: so the onboarding problem solve you know a lot of
Speaker 1: their liquidity problems. So finally we have USDC on street today. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all that problem right, It's what it takes to make
Speaker 1: a great development platform.
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Speaker 2: the link in the description. Welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Tony Edward and with me today is
Speaker 2: Evan Chang, who's the co founder and CEO of myst
Speaker 2: and Labs. Evan, great to have you on.
Speaker 1: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Evan, I'm super excited to speak with you. Last
Speaker 2: week we met in person at the Sui event in
Speaker 2: New York City. After Mayet and Sue has been getting
Speaker 2: a lot of a adoption. There's been a lot of
Speaker 2: news around this blockchain and I want to learn more.
Speaker 2: So really excited to have you on. But let's start
Speaker 2: with your background. Tell us about yourself. Where are you
Speaker 2: from and what's your professional background.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a long story, so I don't want to
Speaker 1: take up all the time, but yeah, I was born
Speaker 1: in Taiwan. You know, like Nvidio Jenson one Taiwanese founders,
Speaker 1: all the other age these days. But you know, I
Speaker 1: grew up sort of being kind of had the education
Speaker 1: that allowed me to kind of think freely, kind of
Speaker 1: a very unusual type of education. So fast forwards, right,
Speaker 1: So I actually had a very interesting kind of educational background.
Speaker 1: I didn't finish high school. I tricked my way into
Speaker 1: college and finished it very quickly, and then later on
Speaker 1: drop out a PhD program after I wrote four chapter
Speaker 1: of thesis and just wasn't inspired by my own work
Speaker 1: and just kind of literally just walk away one day.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so I spent a number of years doing
Speaker 1: startup kind of early in my career that that didn't
Speaker 1: work out. So I think I made fifty k uh
Speaker 1: that startup experience after seven years, and then I joined Apple.
Speaker 1: So this is where I started doing uh kind of
Speaker 1: some serious compiler work. You know. L v M is
Speaker 1: sort of my you know, kind of big, big accomplishment
Speaker 1: along with my friend and partner, Chris Laantner. So we
Speaker 1: sort of build something that really really had a massive
Speaker 1: impact on the on the industry, not just in terms
Speaker 1: of kind of you know, sort of like the geeky
Speaker 1: developer tooling kind of work. But but also this this
Speaker 1: impact consumer products in a lot of different ways. It's
Speaker 1: literally running pretty much every smartphone, every smart device these days.
Speaker 1: Then I went down to Facebook, so where I was
Speaker 1: leading the program language and rent and organization before I
Speaker 1: got repilled into going to Crypto. So I was sort
Speaker 1: of looking at you know, Ether twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: kind of figuring out. I got excited about the space,
Speaker 1: got excited about the opportunity, you know, given up my background.
Speaker 1: I felt like the industry really really need a lot
Speaker 1: more sort of kind of formal thinking about what programming
Speaker 1: language for developer tooling, developer environment would look like for
Speaker 1: a smart contract platform. And that was where I really
Speaker 1: want to get, you know, sort of like get involved.
Speaker 1: So when the liber project came around, I was just
Speaker 1: sort of raised my hands. I me, me, me right.
Speaker 1: So I already sort of I doing a sort of clubs,
Speaker 1: right blockchain club crypto, you know, people talk crypto inside Facebook.
Speaker 1: I want to be part of that project, and I
Speaker 1: end up sort of leading the R and D side
Speaker 1: of the of the project.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's amazing. So you help work on Libra and
Speaker 2: we know, eventually there was some regulation blocking there rights
Speaker 2: and rodblocks that came up from the government. On that note,
Speaker 2: Being at two major companies like Apple and Facebook, giants
Speaker 2: in the tech space, what do you think or when
Speaker 2: do you think they may fully adopt blockchain, Whether it's
Speaker 2: Facebook putting profiles on the blockchain and we have more
Speaker 2: verifiable profiles and so forth, or Apple maybe using blockchain
Speaker 2: for logistics and where they get their different supplies, or
Speaker 2: integrating stable coins for payments and so forth. What do
Speaker 2: you think that may happen.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I don't see anybody knows, right.
Speaker 1: So when you talk about the biggest companies in the world,
Speaker 1: they tend to have their business model whether that fits
Speaker 1: them right. So you know, you take a look at Apple,
Speaker 1: Apples is you know, locking in a lot of way.
Speaker 1: You know, you want they want you to be awe
Speaker 1: in the Apple universe, right, Apple device, Apple services. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like if you use a message, right, you want
Speaker 1: you want a blue tick, not a not a green tech.
Speaker 1: I'm a green tech, right. So there's a lot of
Speaker 1: these kind of you know, app store they take you know,
Speaker 1: they take cuts right, and the same thing right to
Speaker 1: to away on the Google side. Uh, perhaps a little
Speaker 1: less so because uh it's more of advertising kind of
Speaker 1: business rather, you know, that's where the revenue come from.
Speaker 1: Let's a little bit less unlocking. Uh. I think I
Speaker 1: think you all may eventually happen in some way. As
Speaker 1: you say, it's not like adopting blockchain across the board
Speaker 1: like every aspect of their business. But they could offer
Speaker 1: you know, as you say, crypto based payment service because
Speaker 1: more efficiency, you know, logistic could happen. You know, we
Speaker 1: talk about how blockchain is a coordination kind of solving
Speaker 1: a lot of coordination problems. So a lot of it
Speaker 1: is you know efficiency, you know, kind of a reduced cost,
Speaker 1: you know, more automation with especially with AI, Right, you
Speaker 1: have to imagine everything will be more and more automated
Speaker 1: rather than sort of still very much human involved in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. So timeline, nobody really knows these
Speaker 1: They are not necessarily going to be the first adoption
Speaker 1: adoptor right, They're not going to be the first mover.
Speaker 1: Looks like Google is a partner, they actually are moving
Speaker 1: much much more aggressively. In turn, it off out looking
Speaker 1: at the web tree in the business, especially from the
Speaker 1: infrastructure side. Apple so far has not shown a lot
Speaker 1: of interest. But you know, it's every company is different.
Speaker 1: It comes down to the business model, how they make money,
Speaker 1: how do they deserve their customer right. So too oftent
Speaker 1: time people talk about, you know, sort of building crypto
Speaker 1: or web consumer products. I think what people missing is, well,
Speaker 1: you've got to empower the builders, right, they have to
Speaker 1: make money, they have to have a lasting business for
Speaker 1: them to adopt the technology. So always look at both sides. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think it's it will happen, but when nobody really.
Speaker 2: Knows, Yeah, for sure. And I know one of the
Speaker 2: biggest use cases and this is more on the being
Speaker 2: a feuduciary. Uh, many companies are looking to add bigcoin
Speaker 2: and their balance sheet to protect their cash reserves from
Speaker 2: the basement. So that's another avenue. But you know that
Speaker 2: in itself, I mean that's nice, but I'm waiting to
Speaker 2: see when these companies adopt suite, you know, and blockchains
Speaker 2: and just start building on them and so forth. But
Speaker 2: to your point, no one knows on the lines of Google,
Speaker 2: tell us about how you're working with them, and you know,
Speaker 2: what's their vision that they've shared with you guys.
Speaker 1: I think they see this as an emergent kind of market,
Speaker 1: emergent technology they want to be close to. So so
Speaker 1: they you know, search right indexing. You know, we use
Speaker 1: some of the cloud infrastructure products. You know, we talk
Speaker 1: about you know, for example z K locking, so that
Speaker 1: utilize Google Gmail, you know, as one options one the
Speaker 1: primary options for the social logging, and they're very supportive that.
Speaker 1: We talk about a lot of future opportunity as well, uh,
Speaker 1: you know sort of you know, sort of like sound
Speaker 1: of security aspects, cybersecurity kind of products that we we
Speaker 1: have done and shown some early poc as well. So
Speaker 1: so all that right, So there's a it's a long
Speaker 1: term kind of a you know, partnership that we intend
Speaker 1: to explore a lot of options. Also AI Gemini. We
Speaker 1: we're done uh sort of AI powered kind of smart
Speaker 1: contry auditing or but funding tool. You know, you may
Speaker 1: not have heard much of it, right, we're actually building
Speaker 1: it and it's actually funding bugs these days, not just
Speaker 1: on Sweet smart contract, but other smart contract platform as well.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of a wide variety of kind
Speaker 1: of projects that we're working on together.
Speaker 2: And I was just listening to a podcast yesterday where
Speaker 2: they were talking about Google has a lot to lose
Speaker 2: with its search business due to AI, and obviously integrating
Speaker 2: blockchain will be very important for them. So it's great
Speaker 2: to hear that they are making these moves, doing proof
Speaker 2: of concepts and all that because the disruptions at their
Speaker 2: door and it's you know, they have to adopt this
Speaker 2: technology sooner than later.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you touch on an important word, disruption, right, because
Speaker 1: when you ask the questions like who is going to
Speaker 1: adopt the first is it Apple? Is Google? Well, it's
Speaker 1: always going to be probably some of the companies that
Speaker 1: feel like their business is about to be disrupted, or
Speaker 1: the smaller company that say, well, here's the opportunity for
Speaker 1: us to disrupt incumbents or they need the edge right
Speaker 1: to get ahead of the competitors or get ahead the
Speaker 1: coming waves. It's always the case, right, So so you
Speaker 1: probably heard me talk about this a number of times.
Speaker 1: It's not just a numbers game. Uh, it's it's always uh,
Speaker 1: if you're thinking about building uh, you know, sort of
Speaker 1: a platform of any sort, especially when there's a developer platform,
Speaker 1: it's a hit business. How many you know, kind of
Speaker 1: products are kind of arrive on our platform that really
Speaker 1: transform people thinking transform consumer experience or turns out enabling
Speaker 1: kind of business model shift to allow the builder to
Speaker 1: make more money, be more competitive, or given an edge.
Speaker 1: That's when things really happen. That's when people get excited about,
Speaker 1: you know, either the builder or consumer. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is exciting, this is something I want to see
Speaker 1: more of, uh, And that's when the magic happens. Oh.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now for those who may not know, give us
Speaker 2: an over you Sweet and missed in labs and essentially
Speaker 2: what makes Sweet different.
Speaker 1: Well, Missing Lab and Missing Lab you probably see us
Speaker 1: building a ton of different products, right with some with
Speaker 1: some of the smartest people uh in their respective domain
Speaker 1: here with Missing Labs were very dedicated to this mission
Speaker 1: to really really make the Internet more fair by by
Speaker 1: you know, decentralized people providing dicentralized technology. Right starting Sweet
Speaker 1: and wars and you talk us. You may talk about
Speaker 1: Scion as well, so you know sort of compute storage
Speaker 1: and networking. Now let's talk about three. We set out
Speaker 1: to build Sweet, not as a worker anything now following
Speaker 1: the sort of architecture of previous blockchains or not, because
Speaker 1: we're like, okay, we have to do something different too
Speaker 1: to attract attention. In fact, we were, oh, like, why
Speaker 1: don't you have IBI and compatibility? Solidity has won, right,
Speaker 1: all that sort of thing, which is kind of ignored
Speaker 1: because we're first principal think here, thinker here, where we say, okay,
Speaker 1: what is the blockchain really about? Right? What what do
Speaker 1: you see this kind of you know, kind of delivering
Speaker 1: impact while we think about this is uh a platform
Speaker 1: where you want to allow developer to model different kinds
Speaker 1: of assets. You want them to have these user and
Speaker 1: developers and builder think about all these assets or they
Speaker 1: intact with each other. Right. Ultimately we understand this is
Speaker 1: just really a coordination problem. Anything that looks like to
Speaker 1: you know, to side the marketplace, there's a by side
Speaker 1: their cell side. Right. If you think, you know, should
Speaker 1: be empowered by a block chain, right, you know, so
Speaker 1: so examples deep in right, example such as dots right,
Speaker 1: our partner that's just launching, uh. You know you have
Speaker 1: access capacity. I have IDOL three D printer I want
Speaker 1: to make available and there's one hundreds and thousands of them.
Speaker 1: At the same time, there's one hundreds and thousands or
Speaker 1: millions of users Like, Okay, I find a cool model
Speaker 1: I want to you know, kind of realize it into
Speaker 1: actual you know, physical product. Well, okay, let me get
Speaker 1: on this and find the nearest three D printer that's available. Right,
Speaker 1: it's two side of the marketplace, and people really really
Speaker 1: extend beyond sort of what people think in terms of
Speaker 1: the usual crypto use cases speculations or financial kind of product.
Speaker 1: But even financial product, you understand there's a lot of
Speaker 1: kind of inefficiency. Right, So you have human getting involved,
Speaker 1: you have people realize bank transfers brought to be slow,
Speaker 1: why not use crypto rail? Right? And when I have
Speaker 1: it solving some the compliance on the complex kind of
Speaker 1: business problem where we're add as well. So all that
Speaker 1: is happening, right, gaming, everything's happening, So we realize you've
Speaker 1: got to model this correctly. Thinking in terms of assets.
Speaker 1: That's the starting point. So it's just you know, sort
Speaker 1: of you can look at it. It's a three years
Speaker 1: a you know, it's not a camp based model like
Speaker 1: most other kind of smart contract platform. It's you know,
Speaker 1: assets and asset interacting with each other. And assets are
Speaker 1: type objects, right, because you want to define clearly what
Speaker 1: that looks like. And to do that, you will also realize, well,
Speaker 1: you've got to have make sure all that important information
Speaker 1: about the assets look on chain. If it's not on chain,
Speaker 1: then you go back to centralization. Right, you got to
Speaker 1: rely on some centralized party to manipulate that states as
Speaker 1: the asset undergoing changes. Right, So that's important to build
Speaker 1: as well. Uh. And people talk about composibility, Uh, people
Speaker 1: about talk about intropability. Well, we want it to be
Speaker 1: more than protocols talking to each other, because if you
Speaker 1: think about everything in the real world, it's asset composing
Speaker 1: with each other. Right. I'm literally like showing you example here,
Speaker 1: I have a coup with coffee. Right, that's two different assets,
Speaker 1: two different items that being composed into one. Now it's
Speaker 1: a glass with coffee. So and that applies to pretty
Speaker 1: much everything, you know, especially in gaining. Everything is hierarchical, composable.
Speaker 1: Things are constantly changing, and assets are being used to
Speaker 1: interact with other assets, you know, and that history of
Speaker 1: the asset, My my magic stew in this game was
Speaker 1: the one that took down the final boss, right, that
Speaker 1: street better be there on chain. That make this particular
Speaker 1: instance of that that sort of be much more valuable
Speaker 1: than others that may not have that history. Right, All
Speaker 1: these things require us to think really really differently from
Speaker 1: first principle. So the data model is all objects, right,
Speaker 1: then the pipeline for processing transaction it's going to be
Speaker 1: very different because each one is distinct rather than one
Speaker 1: giant global state. We're even reading the states right, trying
Speaker 1: to because I just want to look at the information
Speaker 1: about my in game asset. You can't do that easily
Speaker 1: on the blockchain because you have to look into the
Speaker 1: mercle tree and you know, extract on the information. So
Speaker 1: this allows us to change the way how you read
Speaker 1: a blockchain as well, how we think about everything like
Speaker 1: notes and everything, and over time we also change how
Speaker 1: we think about you know, concerns. Right, you don't really
Speaker 1: need consensus in a lot of cases if you are
Speaker 1: a single owned object, right, I own the object. I
Speaker 1: want to you know, reduce the amounto coffee in it.
Speaker 1: This doesn't need to be sequenced with other transactions because
Speaker 1: there's no way other transactions can interfere with it. There's
Speaker 1: no contention. So we really really rethink everything from how
Speaker 1: we process transactions, how the data is as stored, how
Speaker 1: we model the interaction between objects, how we do composibility,
Speaker 1: how we think about kind of a cocomposibility. We want
Speaker 1: to enable the client side composibility, so we're going to
Speaker 1: transaction blocks. So Sui really is not like any of
Speaker 1: the blockchains out there, like really really fundamentally, we don't
Speaker 1: even produce blocks, right, We produce checkpoints asynchronously. So transaction
Speaker 1: our process immediately it's real time. Thinks has to be
Speaker 1: super fast. We also think about not interests capability, We
Speaker 1: think about elasticity or you know, kind of a supply
Speaker 1: and demands. So that's a little bit worthy answer to
Speaker 1: your question, but it's a lot really is a very
Speaker 1: very different kind of way we think about kind of
Speaker 1: this infrastructure.
Speaker 2: No, I appreciate that detail, and it's very important to
Speaker 2: get all those details because there's a lot of blockchains
Speaker 2: out there right just it's competitive on the layer one space.
Speaker 2: You have Ethereum, Salona and so forth. And you know,
Speaker 2: it's funny enough, last night I noticed Sueeze transaction volume
Speaker 2: I believe surpassed Solona based on some recent data, So
Speaker 2: that was really great to see. So what are some
Speaker 2: of the use cases and how folks can utilize the
Speaker 2: sweet blockchain? Is it tokenization? What are some of the
Speaker 2: target use cases that maybe are industries that you're going after.
Speaker 1: Only after every industry. And this is the magic, This
Speaker 1: is the power of developer platform. We really want to
Speaker 1: open it up to allow developer to build for anything.
Speaker 1: Right But fundamentally world blockchain is good for right that
Speaker 1: we need to understand. We need to build it. Well.
Speaker 1: So what is good for is well, it's a platform
Speaker 1: for what we talk about coordination a lot, right given
Speaker 1: then example, so to deepen and two way in the marketplace.
Speaker 1: And but you also think about in terms of this mediation, right,
Speaker 1: anytime you're middleman, that's sort of like sort of extract
Speaker 1: value out of it that could be replaced with a
Speaker 1: blockchain smart contract platform. You know everything, right now, your
Speaker 1: human trust intermediary, right, somebody provide trust, I hold on
Speaker 1: to your assets. I gave you some benefit, but I
Speaker 1: may extract benefit as well. Right, So you're familiar with
Speaker 1: any kind of content platform that that's look like that, right,
Speaker 1: So they hold on, they help you do discovery, find
Speaker 1: essential buyer for your asset that you produce, but they
Speaker 1: extract sort of very out of it. That is a
Speaker 1: blockchain's job as well. So obviously asset organization, as you say,
Speaker 1: because now we model, as I say, right, So it's
Speaker 1: all about modeling assets, right, So that's that's the example,
Speaker 1: and transfers much of that sort of rules enforcement of
Speaker 1: the asset onto the block chain is very very important.
Speaker 1: So again we think about everything differently. Right. You're familiar
Speaker 1: with the empty marketplace example where they later on decided
Speaker 1: not to enforce royalty payments. Right, that's because our human
Speaker 1: is in the middle intermediary decided what's beneficial to them,
Speaker 1: so they discard the rules. Right, that should be done
Speaker 1: by software smart contract that won't lie to you because
Speaker 1: or change their mind. That's most important. So really is
Speaker 1: every industry, right, people thinking primarily about kind of finance
Speaker 1: right DeFi payment definitely, tons working on are being worked
Speaker 1: out right there right now, tons of activities, tons of
Speaker 1: energy commerce. Right. Once you have payment solve, you have
Speaker 1: marketplace solved, a lot of commerce use cases. YEA mean
Speaker 1: any kind of sort sharing or resource I'd be deep
Speaker 1: in on and on. Pretty much every industry out there
Speaker 1: can benefit from this technology.
Speaker 2: And how is missed in labs facilitating to get more
Speaker 2: developers to build on you know, are you working any
Speaker 2: unique Web three developer tools and things like that?
Speaker 1: That's our primary focus from the beginning. Ultimately, developer don't
Speaker 1: want to know how the all the lot of complexity,
Speaker 1: and it is right, I always find the darts right
Speaker 1: this industry versus a lot of complexity onto developer that
Speaker 1: just want to build products, right. So when I talk
Speaker 1: about developer, we primary focus on serving developer build products, right,
Speaker 1: and that's what we're about. So developer experience has always
Speaker 1: be got the top of mind always and we are
Speaker 1: the best. There many many examples people saying don't want
Speaker 1: to go back and work on any other kind of
Speaker 1: blotting platform. It's not just a language, right. People talk
Speaker 1: a lot about Move and Move is exceptionally great and
Speaker 1: you know, same exceptional job, you know, conceptualizing, building it
Speaker 1: and then growing it and the team alongside as well.
Speaker 1: But a platform is much more than just the program language.
Speaker 1: It's a tool surround it. It's a documentation, it is
Speaker 1: a support we give to the to the developer community.
Speaker 1: It's really the Wholet system working together, right. Because we
Speaker 1: are in the business allowing developer to model assets and
Speaker 1: model the interaction with an asset. We focus so much
Speaker 1: on that sort of thing, that area, so you can
Speaker 1: send asset to assets right, object to objects, right, you
Speaker 1: can compose objects very simply. We take away the untime,
Speaker 1: takes away a lot of the sort of things that
Speaker 1: can go wrong, right. You know, you're familiar with all
Speaker 1: the reinentency problems that could be you know, missing a
Speaker 1: check for ownership somewhere, right, that that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: So we yeah, absolutely right. So from the beginning, we
Speaker 1: focus so much on making sure developers don't have focus
Speaker 1: right they should themselves in the foods, making sure they
Speaker 1: don't have to do all that things that's easy to
Speaker 1: get wrong and very boiler play stuff. And then we
Speaker 1: build you know tools on top of that. The building
Speaker 1: blocks you know, solve the logging problems, so so the
Speaker 1: onboarding problem, solve you know a lot of their liquidity problems.
Speaker 1: So finally we have USDC on street today. Yeah, all
Speaker 1: that problem right, it's what takes to make a great
Speaker 1: development platform.
Speaker 2: Let's talk a bit about decentralization and efficiency. Obviously there's
Speaker 2: a race among these different blockchains to get to that
Speaker 2: place where they can be fully decentralized but without compromising efficiency.
Speaker 2: How are you guys approaching that? Is it a work
Speaker 2: in progress? And you know, I don't know if you can.
Speaker 2: You may not be able to give away your secret sauce,
Speaker 2: but love to hear you know how you're approaching that
Speaker 2: and instead that you can be as efficient respons without
Speaker 2: compromising decentralization.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a fallacy out there people thinking
Speaker 1: that's just like decentralization is equal to a number you know,
Speaker 1: sort of validators on your network. Right. In fact, for
Speaker 1: prove a stake on networks, it's two third majority that
Speaker 1: have the stake, you know, the stake that make a decision.
Speaker 1: So a lot of notes with relatively limited stakes don't
Speaker 1: really get to do much right other than being providing redundancy.
Speaker 1: So so I think that's the first lot to get
Speaker 1: that out of the way, right, Uh, you know. And
Speaker 1: the other extreme sort of thinking is that every validator
Speaker 1: needs to run on a BlackBerry, right. So, but that's
Speaker 1: that's going too far because you're ultimately limiting team what
Speaker 1: your network can do. Right. So imagine people building Internet
Speaker 1: thinking that's the way it should go. Right. Remember the Internet,
Speaker 1: the network itself was decentralized, the protocol decentralized. But it's
Speaker 1: a business same time, Right, You've got to be able
Speaker 1: to run things efficiently. So finding the balance is very important.
Speaker 1: So for us, right, we want to empower user, anybody
Speaker 1: to be able to validate, you know, whether they're trying
Speaker 1: the transactions will being you know, processed correctly, whether there
Speaker 1: is a fraudulent behavior is going on, whether there may
Speaker 1: be collusion happening. Right, So coming back, right, it's people
Speaker 1: talk about live notes, right, how easy it is for
Speaker 1: anybody to be able to kind of validate that. And
Speaker 1: then while you're gradually growing the number validata's notes and
Speaker 1: ensuring they're actively participating in the network, right, whether that
Speaker 1: magic number is hundreds or thousands, will get there gradually,
Speaker 1: but it's first, right, you want to make sure the
Speaker 1: network can grow, can be operated smoothly, and things have happening,
Speaker 1: and then bring more people in that you drop, we
Speaker 1: are dropping, should be dropping the requirement to run the notes, right,
Speaker 1: so they really want more notes, but done so in
Speaker 1: a way doesn't impact performance, doesn't impact scalability as well
Speaker 1: as latency. That's very important. At the same time, adding
Speaker 1: the tools for you know, for for users to be
Speaker 1: able to validate their their transactions are being carried out correctly,
Speaker 1: that's really really important. Again, we have no magic soft
Speaker 1: here since already talk about talk about it, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of because the data model is very different. Right,
Speaker 1: if I'm running, if I developer building a game, there's
Speaker 1: ten thousand users on it. Each one of them has
Speaker 1: a characters. I just want to follow that ten thousand objects.
Speaker 1: They tell me that, you know what the states are.
Speaker 1: I don't care about the rest of the blockchain. You
Speaker 1: know how they're changing. So so we call that sparks replay.
Speaker 1: And then we're building a lot of tools around that.
Speaker 1: So you know, very very different ways of achieving the
Speaker 1: centralization for sure.
Speaker 2: And then from a security standpoint, how are you guys
Speaker 2: approaching that and to make sure things are secure for
Speaker 2: users and protecting against vulnerabilities you know, on the network
Speaker 2: and so forth.
Speaker 1: Such start with the foundation, right, the network protocols much
Speaker 1: must be scientifically validated by the experts in the right
Speaker 1: imagined tcp IP was built by group of hacker and
Speaker 1: nobody validated. These are correct protocol right, the Internet will
Speaker 1: be on fire left and right. So you see everything
Speaker 1: we have done, all the protocol you know, validated published
Speaker 1: at the top conferences. Very very few, if any other
Speaker 1: very few has done that. At the same time, engineered
Speaker 1: them to you know, sort of the kind of level
Speaker 1: of siphistication, the kind of trust that you can trust
Speaker 1: our engineering output as well. We have some of the
Speaker 1: best engineers as a result, and we're really really, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of that the core competency is build the best
Speaker 1: kind of distributed system, the best run time for programming language,
Speaker 1: the best platform, building the tools to enforce to be
Speaker 1: able to make sure these are correct. We talk about
Speaker 1: a lot about we're using AI to build kind of
Speaker 1: an auditing tool, internal bug funding tools, UH to find
Speaker 1: them as well. So it's the research is engineering, it's
Speaker 1: a design. It's very very much the design. Like we
Speaker 1: don't hand waves, trust us this is correct, Like we
Speaker 1: prove things are correct. At the same time, operationally we're
Speaker 1: ready right to jump out anything. And beyond that, we
Speaker 1: help you know, the ecosystem only as safe as well
Speaker 1: all the builders are doing right. We're helping the builders
Speaker 1: a lot right, ensuring best practice right, making sure they
Speaker 1: understand security requirements, making sure how to safe guard their
Speaker 1: assets and their users' assets. Yeah, so and and again
Speaker 1: coming back right, and we we're making sure that we've
Speaker 1: been stepped fast about making sure you use the right
Speaker 1: tools and move take away a lot of the security
Speaker 1: concerns in terms of smart contract, but you still need,
Speaker 1: you know, to follow these practices to ensure there's no
Speaker 1: logic errors, no mistakes in your code. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's Uh, it's a big undertaking. So far, so so good, right,
Speaker 1: not on words. We haven't had any kind of downtime
Speaker 1: at all, and uh, there has been small skills attacks
Speaker 1: and but you know, generally the three consistence being pretty
Speaker 1: pretty down good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Now earlier you mentioned partnership with Google.
Speaker 2: Are there other partnerships or folks that you know are
Speaker 2: investors that you want to highlight.
Speaker 1: We have some of the best investors such as sc
Speaker 1: the crypto of a lot of you know, other investors.
Speaker 1: You know, I feel like we're talking to the biggest
Speaker 1: and the best, most well known. Every day. There's a
Speaker 1: ton of interesting in SUI right now. A lot of
Speaker 1: them are interesting SUI the assets, a lot of they're
Speaker 1: not interesting. Using sue this this across the board of
Speaker 1: financial industries, consumer commerce, gaming. Movie Pass is one of
Speaker 1: those upstart kind of uh company that that you know,
Speaker 1: want to challenge in the movie industry. We love to
Speaker 1: partner with kind of partners like that and times one hundred.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of kind of partners I can't talk
Speaker 1: about today. Uh, some building consumer products are building sort
Speaker 1: of infrastructure too for other builders. It's uh, it's it's
Speaker 1: literally it's like mind blowing, how how much of interest
Speaker 1: there is? Yeah, I mean, I mean I we talk
Speaker 1: about like three Dots as an example of this kind
Speaker 1: of upstart right kind of company that want challenge status quo.
Speaker 1: The list goes on, and I can give a gaming
Speaker 1: example of society super excited. Ef C Final Salvation is launching.
Speaker 1: We have a chain, a big, big public company out
Speaker 1: of Korea building a suite you know, Dark Times, you know,
Speaker 1: you name it. We have a huge lineup coming.
Speaker 2: That's that's amazing. So Evan, you know, I got to ask,
Speaker 2: I did have you gone back to Faceboo look to
Speaker 2: your friends at Facebook and Apple and knocked on the
Speaker 2: door saying, hey, come and take a look at what
Speaker 2: I'm building here.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, it's it's I think it's a it's a
Speaker 1: good question. The very very fortunate the Libar project sort
Speaker 1: of like get us some of the best engineers in
Speaker 1: the world. That that's interesting in the space. So actually
Speaker 1: a ton of them, I'll say, you know, like sound
Speaker 1: the pretty much all the best have joined Miston working
Speaker 1: on Swulian Wars and more. So we're very, very lucky.
Speaker 1: I don't have to go back to Facebook and knock
Speaker 1: on people's door say are you interesting blockchain? You know,
Speaker 1: in fact, a lot of people don't understand this industry, right,
Speaker 1: I think the elephant in the room is people skeptical
Speaker 1: or outright sort of anti blockchain crypto. That's very unfortunate.
Speaker 1: So I do have friends and for mccauleeagues, why are
Speaker 1: you doing this right? This seems like crazy world you're eing.
Speaker 1: It's like, trust me, right, you know what I've done
Speaker 1: in my career. I'm not here for a quick buck
Speaker 1: or doing something that's sketchy. So it's a mix. People
Speaker 1: now knows what I've been doing a lot of them
Speaker 1: a kind of very very impressive and supporting us. Some
Speaker 1: are skeptical, but it's our job to prove to the
Speaker 1: world this is real and this deliberate value to the world,
Speaker 1: and I think that that will all change.
Speaker 2: So on that note, and I've experienced that skepticism myself
Speaker 2: right in telling people about the technology. And look, human
Speaker 2: beings are cynics and change is hard for them. Right,
Speaker 2: you're disrupting, you're doing it something against the grain. It's hard,
Speaker 2: and eventually something they learn and they come around and
Speaker 2: we have this community knowledge that grows. But do you
Speaker 2: think the token dynamic And I'm not and this is
Speaker 2: a bad thing, but that blind people to the actual technology.
Speaker 2: Like if they realize what this is on top of
Speaker 2: the Internet, their their mindset will be different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I mean old enough to remember dot com, right,
Speaker 1: same thing. It's a great technology, transformative the web. It's
Speaker 1: obvious it's going to happen. Guess what the first iteration,
Speaker 1: first adoption is. You know, a lot of them are
Speaker 1: not there for the right reason. Uh and and sometimes
Speaker 1: almost not their own fault. Right to the point, right,
Speaker 1: the expectation changes and the sort of the the zo
Speaker 1: the fervor, you know, changes how people think, right, Like
Speaker 1: it's you know, we have heard the saying, right, money corrupts, right.
Speaker 1: I think I think in the space where you know,
Speaker 1: let's be honest with ourselves, we're seeing those kind of
Speaker 1: behavior as well. And a lot of times you don't
Speaker 1: really need to build something. You can just like vaporware, right,
Speaker 1: announce vapor day in, day out, and then try to
Speaker 1: pump your token and that's that's just bad. Right, you know,
Speaker 1: you know you're probably see every time we say something
Speaker 1: is coming, they're either like writing now in or pretty soon. Right,
Speaker 1: we just don't do that. But not everybody does that, right,
Speaker 1: And there's some schemes you know, so so unfortunately right,
Speaker 1: and there are sometimes just the security issue, right, smart
Speaker 1: country hacks. Right. We attract a lot of bad actors
Speaker 1: rock polls. Right, that's really really human kind of doing
Speaker 1: bad things. It's all there, right, we just got to naturally,
Speaker 1: as we grow up, mature and clean up, more adoptions happen.
Speaker 1: They were drawn all those bad actors. H And as
Speaker 1: the industry gets better, gets smarter about, you know, what
Speaker 1: to do but not to do naturally, they will go away. Right.
Speaker 1: So even Internet today is full filled with skames and
Speaker 1: bad actors. A lot of things are spamy. I get
Speaker 1: hundreds of spams on everything every platform, every day. But
Speaker 1: it's like the good is way, our weights the bead, right,
Speaker 1: we just need to get there, and then all the
Speaker 1: attitude towards this industry would change. I think we're getting
Speaker 1: closer and closer, and that's exciting. That's super exciting and
Speaker 1: I can't pick it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely great point. And I think since when you
Speaker 2: got in I got it in twenty sixteen, we've matured
Speaker 2: so much. The level of builders and participants are just
Speaker 2: next level Wall Street, investment bank, stock markets, all here
Speaker 2: looking to build as technologies. It's been an incredible journey
Speaker 2: so far. What's on your roadmap for the remainder of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four and early twenty five as much as
Speaker 2: you can.
Speaker 1: Share with us. Yeah, So on the street side, we
Speaker 1: just keep on making it better. You know, everybody heard
Speaker 1: about SETI and everybody's posting screenshots of how fast it
Speaker 1: swaps on. Three. Well, people probably don't realize, mis SETI
Speaker 1: is not done. We're about to get even faster. Continue
Speaker 1: to get faster, continue to get more you know, sort
Speaker 1: of more scalable, putting out a lot of design and
Speaker 1: vision into practice, so to speak. Hardening three the platform,
Speaker 1: continue to improve upon the developer experience, building more building blocks.
Speaker 1: People get follow follow for example Custers, right, you get
Speaker 1: all of us and stuff. He's working on these incredible
Speaker 1: building blocks that allow new use cases that it's just
Speaker 1: you know, people cannot even imagine them today. Some then
Speaker 1: you know, right on chain randomness, right, you know, then
Speaker 1: then taking a step further, like you know, sort of
Speaker 1: time capsule type of use cases, private afts, all these
Speaker 1: new cases, all these building blocks are being built beyond
Speaker 1: that right on the product side Stash. We really haven't
Speaker 1: done a lot onto on the payment side with Stash yet,
Speaker 1: lots more coming. The wallet will continue to get better.
Speaker 1: A lot of other serve party of wallets which are
Speaker 1: super exciting coming as well. Uh, you know we have
Speaker 1: but then let's talk about the big thing worse. Right,
Speaker 1: the team is very very very busy building words. We're
Speaker 1: about to hit test net, I think very very soon.
Speaker 1: So that's a little bit apha there, and it's uh,
Speaker 1: I think we already had petabytes of like data being
Speaker 1: stored on many many to petabytes on the deafine, right,
Speaker 1: So we're moving on to the next space because now
Speaker 1: we're seeing the demand fund developers. Okay, now you imagine
Speaker 1: building a web tool product where you can only use
Speaker 1: the ring, right, and that's that's like building a web
Speaker 1: street product only using the blockchain, with some on chained
Speaker 1: storage at least on other you can't even do any
Speaker 1: kind of chain storage. Now we have a system for
Speaker 1: you to store a large amount of data, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: to be able to host your friend, end your website
Speaker 1: on decentralized storage or decientire hosting. Then you don't longer
Speaker 1: have to worry about somebody tinkering with my my app
Speaker 1: right my friend, and to trick users. That's happened right again,
Speaker 1: if you have a building a decentralized product, you have
Speaker 1: a centralized a tap vector, it's going to be exploited. Right.
Speaker 1: So we're solving more and more problems, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: starting with Sue, and now we're focusing a lot on
Speaker 1: building waters, getting ready, presume, and lots of other things. Sion,
Speaker 1: you probably saw the news about adoption or site young again.
Speaker 1: By hardening the system, Mike, it really mission critical that
Speaker 1: cannot be taken down by any actor, and lots of
Speaker 1: things we can all talk about. You know, yes, it's
Speaker 1: it's uh, we're just running as fast as we can
Speaker 1: keep on building.
Speaker 2: That's exciting, and you know, congrats and all this success.
Speaker 2: I did want to get your thoughts on the larger
Speaker 2: crypto market and all the things that have been happening
Speaker 2: there and I don't know if this relates to a
Speaker 2: question I asked you earlier, but would you say, you
Speaker 2: know Web one point oh, the transition to two point
Speaker 2: zero happened in the early two thousands, and when do
Speaker 2: you think the transition of Web two to Web three
Speaker 2: may happen? I know we're not an exact date, but
Speaker 2: is it within the next five years or the next
Speaker 2: ten years?
Speaker 1: It's a good question. Like anything in the world, there
Speaker 1: seems to be this sort of like going this way,
Speaker 1: then going back right right, so you sort of always
Speaker 1: correct call force, and then you you kind of sweep
Speaker 1: back and forth a few times because it's hard, and
Speaker 1: it's because it's uneasy, right, and not easy because you're
Speaker 1: challenging the status qu uh. The interner goes from peer
Speaker 1: to peer right very much protocol level to centralization because well,
Speaker 1: it's hard to build. Peer to peer are hard to scale.
Speaker 1: And then now we're saying, oh, oh my god, like
Speaker 1: lookas how bad it is. Centralization caused all this problem,
Speaker 1: but most people don't know how to solve it. So
Speaker 1: those of us are you know, are working, we are
Speaker 1: working hard to solve that, but require adoption. So it's
Speaker 1: going to be constant battle back and forth. I don't
Speaker 1: think there's going to be a moment where everybody's just
Speaker 1: going to say, well, well now we're in Web three era.
Speaker 1: It's a gradual thing. It's adoption and then we go vertical.
Speaker 1: We are we we are very much adopting Web street
Speaker 1: right now. It's happening. It's early h if we're seeing
Speaker 1: the example of consumer product product that's that's built with
Speaker 1: crypto use blockchains already and it's just gonna salary and
Speaker 1: when does it go vertical? Yeah, I agree, it's going
Speaker 1: to be the next few years. That's no doubt in
Speaker 1: my mind that that's that's happening. I like to say,
Speaker 1: like the series of Arrival is play a big part
Speaker 1: in that, because that's what we're seeing. We're seeing the
Speaker 1: partners that come to us, is finally something that could
Speaker 1: work at our skill, Finally something that fits how we
Speaker 1: think about building products. Finally something that saw a platform
Speaker 1: that's solved all these kind of complex problems we have.
Speaker 1: So we believe it's very very soon and it's well
Speaker 1: I like to think again, it's it's gonna first come
Speaker 1: on sweet and just based on sort of what I'm seeing,
Speaker 1: what I'm seeing my partners are our partners are building.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, it's it's going to happen before you know it.
Speaker 1: And they're just gonna go pure vertical for sure.
Speaker 2: And you know, do you also feel like demographics plays
Speaker 2: a part in that, meaning that the boomers not maybe
Speaker 2: not as much adoption on that front, but you know,
Speaker 2: the younger generations they're in the digital world. It's going
Speaker 2: to their adoption is going to be faster for them,
Speaker 2: and that they can spark the adoption because there's going
Speaker 2: to be cool apps that they want to use, integrated
Speaker 2: AI and blockchain and so forth.
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, some boomers are actually on the front leading
Speaker 1: the charge. Don't forget you know again, it's a state
Speaker 1: of mind, right, It's a lot less to do with
Speaker 1: the with the age. Absolutely, the younger generations, the expectations
Speaker 1: are very very different. A lot of them are fitting
Speaker 1: this disenfranchise, right, say, they want to have an agency,
Speaker 1: They want to own what they you know, what they produce. Uh,
Speaker 1: they want to be their own sort of boss. Right,
Speaker 1: they want to be in control of everything, and that
Speaker 1: very much in the web street thinking, uh, and all
Speaker 1: the cool stuff, right, they come to you know, sort
Speaker 1: of expect out there, right, very much in this world,
Speaker 1: they're very very comfortable and building community around me incoins, right,
Speaker 1: So that's something that's new. We never thought about it, right,
Speaker 1: so until well maybe the first indication was that was
Speaker 1: the game stock scenario. That's very much like a community
Speaker 1: belonging type of scenario. And yes, there's all kinds of
Speaker 1: being coins that people talk about all the time. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that's one example. So AFT was another example. There was
Speaker 1: a bit of a speculative bubble, but it's still there. Right.
Speaker 1: People collect things and they want to feel like part
Speaker 1: of a community, and that that's very much the case.
Speaker 1: Automation everything has got to be faster. Yeah, they don't
Speaker 1: want to deal with like people don't want to get
Speaker 1: on the phone to call I mean, I'm like that,
Speaker 1: I hate talking to human Right, Can I just type
Speaker 1: a few things? Get things done? Right? Automation everything's got
Speaker 1: to be fastest, smoother, right. Trust, there's less and less
Speaker 1: trust in centralized entities, right, given higher education, you know,
Speaker 1: government's big business. It's just kind of people are like
Speaker 1: this generation is like are they really trying to help me?
Speaker 1: Or I just don't have a choice. I have to
Speaker 1: trust them. Right, I really don't like that. So yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: the mental model, the thinking has really really changed, so dramatic,
Speaker 1: if so fundamentally, it's gonna, like, you know, speed up
Speaker 1: the adoption for sure.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. What are your thoughts on the ETFs bigcoin in
Speaker 2: Etheroreum Pretty amazing. You have all the big Wall Street firms,
Speaker 2: Black Rock and so forth issuing and they've had significant success.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a commercialization. Is the institutionalization of the
Speaker 1: asset class us ah. And it's it's natural, it's welcome,
Speaker 1: it's it's part of the growth, it's part of the
Speaker 1: the you know, that's how industry becoming. Sure, so the
Speaker 1: market dynamic has changed, a lot of pattern has changed,
Speaker 1: but by and largely is going to be more welcome.
Speaker 1: It's part of the process. It's it's good and as sweet. Right,
Speaker 1: So we're getting attention for all the same players. Some
Speaker 1: in order left feel like we didn't know they're they're coming, right,
Speaker 1: great skill. We didn't know they're they're interested in building
Speaker 1: a sweet product and they build it, announced it before
Speaker 1: we even knew. As I at first I thought it
Speaker 1: was somebody is pulling my leg. Uh, you know, surely
Speaker 1: you talk to us before announcing their product. No. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's that's we are now. You know, talk about
Speaker 1: just the market force is going to lead us, you
Speaker 1: know where we want to lead us, and and it's
Speaker 1: it's welcome, It's all part of it, for sure. I
Speaker 1: expect the process.
Speaker 2: On the other side of that, I think a lot
Speaker 2: of folks are waiting for a clear legislation, not necessarily
Speaker 2: that we want a ton of regulation, but we want
Speaker 2: balance regulations like the United States got to write with
Speaker 2: the Internet and that created a lot of jobs, a
Speaker 2: lot of great companies, a lot of wealth. And there
Speaker 2: was a bill that made out of the House this
Speaker 2: year of fit twenty one. They're waiting to get it
Speaker 2: through the Senate. It seems like this may happen in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. It can help put the United States
Speaker 2: back in the race, so to speak, because a lot
Speaker 2: of jurisdictions are moving ahead, the EU, DUBAI, and so forth.
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts and are you optimistic we may
Speaker 2: see some sort of legislation in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: I am very optimistic because you announce what you're seeing
Speaker 1: is understanding is happening that both sides, both parties seems
Speaker 1: like it's one it's a topic they pay attention to,
Speaker 1: you know, more and more broadly. And two they're much
Speaker 1: more educated, much more understanding than you are. I understanding.
Speaker 1: It's much more nuanced rather than like Google, gole bed
Speaker 1: Bay back right, it's it's it's really like the thinking
Speaker 1: things too, and not try to model after you know,
Speaker 1: sort of you know, other things, other products, other industry
Speaker 1: that may at this very very high level looks similar
Speaker 1: but actually very different. So it's all welcome, you know,
Speaker 1: sol the development definitely we're paying close attention to it,
Speaker 1: but generally we're very very optimistic. Twenty twenty five is
Speaker 1: going to be the year where we're going to get
Speaker 1: a lot more clarity on the regulatory front.
Speaker 2: M I mean, I got some wrap up questions here
Speaker 2: and a little bit over time. First, if you could
Speaker 2: create your own metaverse, would the theme be.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, I don't think this is going to be
Speaker 1: one thing? Right, So if you if I have a metaverse, right,
Speaker 1: and I'm a huge, huge, sort of both science fiction
Speaker 1: as well as a sort of fantasy, you know, the
Speaker 1: Order Ring type of fans, I want to see both, right,
Speaker 1: and I can take all my stuff and jump between
Speaker 1: these different worlds and stuff is going to be still there. Right,
Speaker 1: that's what we're looking for, the real, real metaverse. That's
Speaker 1: you know, where I am, who I am. I'm not
Speaker 1: starting over when I join a new world. I want
Speaker 1: to see everything that I build, I earned, h come
Speaker 1: with me, and they may just look different or function differently. Right.
Speaker 1: That's sort of like the Holy Grail, right, I think
Speaker 1: ready to play one. Everybody knows about it. Right, that's
Speaker 1: the world I want, but not just purely kind of
Speaker 1: science fiction. Awesome, Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2: Rapid fire questions, favorite food, special favorite musician band.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, I'm more of a classical kind of person,
Speaker 1: So there's no favorite band. You know. Bernstein, you know
Speaker 1: I was one my you know, favorite conductor. I would
Speaker 1: love I would have loved to see him like conduct
Speaker 1: to one of the famous orchestra pieces. Uh, if I pop,
Speaker 1: you have to choose somebody who's more of a recent
Speaker 1: and pop artist. Maroon Fires one my one of my favorite.
Speaker 1: There are many other that's a hard question for me.
Speaker 2: Another hard one. Favorite movie?
Speaker 1: Uh that make sounds a little bit shot her intention?
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, that's a good movie. Favorite book.
Speaker 1: We just talked about it Ready Player one. It's a
Speaker 1: lot of gummy thinking about the true meaning of metaverse,
Speaker 1: what I want to see in the future. I have
Speaker 1: lots and lots of favorite book, but that one seems
Speaker 1: really relevant.
Speaker 2: When you're not working at Missing Labs. What are you
Speaker 2: doing for fun?
Speaker 1: Big Big Modify and I listen to music. That's, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of. I always call it the the world's most
Speaker 1: expensive way for simple to enjoy a simple pleasure, the
Speaker 1: simple pleasure of listening to music and relax and let
Speaker 1: my mind wonders, you know. But I want that, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of like the very very high quality. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's what I enjoy.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Evan, thank you for doing that. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Pleasure chatting with you well, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: your time, and I really appreciate the opportunity. I had
Speaker 1: a fun m