Speaker 1: July ten, twenty twenty five, allegedly according to that thing
Speaker 1: we call a calendar, and this is probably one of
Speaker 1: the last Ocelli effects that'll be live broadcast and all that,
Speaker 1: but I will put it on repeat, unlike the Friday
Speaker 1: show that I have not released and all that. This week,
Speaker 1: still attempting to battle PayPal and all that. And I
Speaker 1: may do a separate show in tonight's proceedings or tomorrow
Speaker 1: night about that. But I have something else to focus
Speaker 1: on here. Why because you know, in twenty fifteen, early
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, as a matter of fact, it was the
Speaker 1: fifteenth day of February twenty fifteen, the Ocelli Peck went
Speaker 1: live for the first time. Now, I had done some
Speaker 1: podcasts in twenty thirteen, but I released and went live
Speaker 1: on a little online radio network called ucy dot TV
Speaker 1: back then because Jack Blood had hooked me up with
Speaker 1: them so I could do my first live talk show.
Speaker 1: Previous to that, I pre recorded stuff, I used sound clips,
Speaker 1: I did interesting news stuff. I didn't have guests, so
Speaker 1: I picked a guest from my group of friends that
Speaker 1: I had, and it was a friend that I had
Speaker 1: had for quite some time. Her name was Joan Mellon.
Speaker 1: She passed away this week, and we only got a
Speaker 1: belated announcement from people to let us know that she
Speaker 1: had passed away here in twenty twenty five. So, you know,
Speaker 1: eleven years ago, in twenty five fourteen, I had around
Speaker 1: as the first guest for this very radio show that
Speaker 1: has continued on past different networks. Became the Chuck Ocelli Show,
Speaker 1: briefly on an international network, you know. I was on
Speaker 1: the Mike Adams radio network. I was on American Freedom Radio.
Speaker 1: I was on a blog talk radio network. I have
Speaker 1: been on a lot of different networks and done this
Speaker 1: through my own site for over a decade as well.
Speaker 1: That's not serious longevity, because I studied the JFK case
Speaker 1: for a long time before that. I started in like
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, when I was like, geez, let me
Speaker 1: think about it, fifteen or sixteen years old, and I
Speaker 1: was in high school, and I just wanted to debunk
Speaker 1: the conspiracy stuff. Really, I thought, most logically, the simplest explanation,
Speaker 1: Oswald probably did it, and these conspiracy people are probably crazy.
Speaker 1: And then I actually dug into the evidence, actually spoke
Speaker 1: to people. The more I did it, the more I
Speaker 1: learned I was on the conspiracy side, not because I
Speaker 1: chose it, not because I set out with that idea
Speaker 1: in the first place, but because that's where the evidence
Speaker 1: led me. Anyway, maybe ten years later, ten years deep,
Speaker 1: because nobody took me seriously. First I was a high
Speaker 1: school kid. Then I was a heavy metal musician. Then
Speaker 1: I was a bouncer. Then I was nobody. I was
Speaker 1: even homeless at one point. But you know, one way
Speaker 1: or another, I kept up on my JFK studies. Somewhere
Speaker 1: in the late nineties, and I don't remember exactly when
Speaker 1: it was. I started to make friends. Why because I
Speaker 1: had been part of mailing lists, and now I was
Speaker 1: part of email lists in the late nineties that allowed
Speaker 1: me to interact with and write to back and forth,
Speaker 1: and then eventually share phone numbers with people that were
Speaker 1: JFK researchers, authors that were working on books, people that
Speaker 1: were working on documentaries, et cetera, et cetera. They dug
Speaker 1: into the community that was very similar to the thing
Speaker 1: that Vince Silandry, an adult in my house, had gotten
Speaker 1: on Vince Landria's mailing list. I took over for them,
Speaker 1: and we used to staple things together and literally send
Speaker 1: paper to one another in the mail. But anyway, later
Speaker 1: on in the email convention that went down and I
Speaker 1: had a completely different email address, was not called the
Speaker 1: blind JFK researcher just yet, although people used to joke
Speaker 1: and refer to me as that, because anytime I had
Speaker 1: been seen, I was always seen with magnifying glasses, hanging
Speaker 1: off my neck, out of my pockets, you name it.
Speaker 1: So I was the blind guy examining documents and contributing
Speaker 1: to different group efforts. And I was in New Jersey mostly,
Speaker 1: although I did move to Connecticut at one point, to
Speaker 1: New York, and a couple of points I moved to
Speaker 1: California briefly, etc. Etc.
Speaker 2: Etc.
Speaker 1: But in Jersey there was a small group of people
Speaker 1: that eventually you would wind up getting in contact with
Speaker 1: because you were in Jersey, you got in touch with
Speaker 1: people in New York. And then people came to New York.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they came to New York to study Malcolm X,
Speaker 1: and they ran into JFK people and we got together.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we discussed watergates. Sometimes we discussed deep politics in
Speaker 1: America in general, the corrupt system, the gangster state, you
Speaker 1: name it. Mostly left wing type people to be honest
Speaker 1: with you back then. But the strange thing was I
Speaker 1: was suddenly kind of taken seriously by certain authors who
Speaker 1: would talk to me about things, ask me questions, ask
Speaker 1: me for advice, get contact information, and I freely shared
Speaker 1: things with a lot of people. Joan Mellon was one
Speaker 1: of those people, and she didn't ask for much from me.
Speaker 1: She would get rather short with me. She was kind
Speaker 1: of rude, really, but after a little while we started
Speaker 1: to get friendly on the phone. I think she liked
Speaker 1: my voice. And everybody that had contact with me back
Speaker 1: in the late nineties in the early two thous they
Speaker 1: all had these weird ideas about who I was, even
Speaker 1: if they had seen me at different get togethers like
Speaker 1: in two thousand and three when I went to the
Speaker 1: WET conference and whatnot, or when I went to Dallas,
Speaker 1: Texas in the nineties. I didn't go to daily Plaza,
Speaker 1: by the way, but just went around to talk to
Speaker 1: the people that I had painstakingly arranged appointments with to
Speaker 1: interview them, including Henry Wade and other people that were
Speaker 1: witnesses that were part of the case, that were players
Speaker 1: that were participants. Anyway, put all of that aside. In
Speaker 1: the late nineties, I did start to get friendly with
Speaker 1: Joan Mellon, and then in the early two thousands it
Speaker 1: intensified a bit. Now Walt Brown thought I was some
Speaker 1: kind of old man because he had always heard about
Speaker 1: my poor vision and assumed it was a matter of age.
Speaker 1: And I didn't meet him until about two thousand and
Speaker 1: two or something like that, just before the WET conference, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, Walt went to the WEC conference, and
Speaker 1: so did Joan, but I only went for one day,
Speaker 1: and they didn't know me that well. Though they had
Speaker 1: seen me. People saw me, but they didn't know exactly
Speaker 1: who I was, because I only worked with certain people. Anyway.
Speaker 1: That's a discussion for another day. But talking to Joan
Speaker 1: on the phone, she had an idea about me. Walt
Speaker 1: thought I was some sort of old man because of
Speaker 1: the magnifying glasses and the idea that I was kind
Speaker 1: of becoming known as the blind JFK researcher guy. And
Speaker 1: Joan had a different impression. And I've never said this
Speaker 1: publicly before, but Joan, I think, was kind of hitting
Speaker 1: on me a little bit because she thought somehow in
Speaker 1: her mind, I was probably age appropriate and one of
Speaker 1: her contemporaries. By the way I spoke, other people thought
Speaker 1: that I was a much deeper seasoned investigator, researcher, academic, etc.
Speaker 1: Until they actually got to know me and found out
Speaker 1: that I was nothing more than a high school graduate
Speaker 1: from New Jersey who had some street smarts and not
Speaker 1: much else. But the maturity levels to people were open
Speaker 1: to interpretation. And to be clear, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two, I turned twenty, right, so I
Speaker 1: was less than thirty years old, and Joan was already
Speaker 1: in advanced age by then. You know, she was old
Speaker 1: enough to be my mother, right. Anyway, she started kind
Speaker 1: of hitting on me until the one day a weird
Speaker 1: conversation took place and she kind of did the whole
Speaker 1: year nothing but a baby.
Speaker 2: Because of my age.
Speaker 1: Thing came out of her mouth, and her attitude and
Speaker 1: mood changed with me. She was no longer slyly, almost
Speaker 1: kind of hitting on me in a weird way. And
Speaker 1: I think she was hitting on me oddly because she
Speaker 1: sort of liked guys that were a little oddballish, that
Speaker 1: were a little unconventional, it seemed to me. And she
Speaker 1: kept her personal life pretty well shielded when she did
Speaker 1: JFK research stuff, So you'd have to know her personally,
Speaker 1: and I did because I didn't live too far away
Speaker 1: from a Remember New Jersey is a very small state,
Speaker 1: so she lived in the western part of the state.
Speaker 1: I lived in the eastern part of the state. And
Speaker 1: again in a small state, it was a skinny small state. Nonetheless,
Speaker 1: you could drive across the entire state in certain parts
Speaker 1: in forty five minutes, in some places in an hour,
Speaker 1: and then I think the deepest part of Jersey you
Speaker 1: could go from the Atlantic Ocean to the western border
Speaker 1: in probably an hour and twenty Anyway, small state, but
Speaker 1: we didn't get together. I think I screwed that up
Speaker 1: by letting her know exactly how old I was at
Speaker 1: one point, inadvertently, not intentionally, but anyhow, her attitude changed
Speaker 1: with me about the personal part of it. But she
Speaker 1: was still respectful of me, asked me questions, sometimes asked
Speaker 1: advice when she was in the midst of figuring out
Speaker 1: what to include what not to include. This is how
Speaker 1: I know. She conducted twelve hundred interviews before releasing that
Speaker 1: Garrison book, and she knew the guy kind of now.
Speaker 1: There of other people have said that she had a
Speaker 1: more personal relationship with him, and I don't know that
Speaker 1: for a fact. She never quite copped to that with me.
Speaker 1: But anyhow, she copped to a lot of interesting things
Speaker 1: over the years, and she was always kind of a
Speaker 1: fascinating character. In fact, in a private conversation with another
Speaker 1: well known author in the JFK community, when I kind
Speaker 1: of informed them that Joan had passed, they called her
Speaker 1: a quote colorful personageship. And she was that loud dress
Speaker 1: that she wore at the WET conference in two thousand
Speaker 1: and three and in other presentations. She loved crazy looking dresses.
Speaker 1: And she was like the angry creative writing teacher at
Speaker 1: a private school somewhere. Except here's the real facts. She
Speaker 1: was a Temple University professor. And you know, she was
Speaker 1: the author of twenty four books that I know of
Speaker 1: now there's a handful of them that relate directly to
Speaker 1: the stuff that I was into, but also books on cinema,
Speaker 1: you know, politics, different things in the culture, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy two, she was awarded the Mansini, a
Speaker 1: Shimbun newspaper organization in Japan. This led to her to
Speaker 1: write five books about Japan including the waves of Genji's
Speaker 1: Door Japan through its cinema. Again, an expert on cinema,
Speaker 1: an expert on literature, and an expert on creative writing,
Speaker 1: and somebody who did not suffer fools very well, and
Speaker 1: yet this friendship with him. I was very proud of
Speaker 1: her when she first released A Farewell to Justice, but
Speaker 1: then there were issues with the editing of it, and
Speaker 1: she was very angry because it didn't quite come out
Speaker 1: the way she wanted it to. She got to upgrade it.
Speaker 1: And she was in an area of New Jersey called Pennington,
Speaker 1: which is not far from Pennsauken, which is where that
Speaker 1: crazy g Willaker's story happened. Anyway, it doesn't matter. In
Speaker 1: two thousand and four, she was awarded one of Temple
Speaker 1: University's a coveted Great Teacher Awards for outstanding achievement, in
Speaker 1: particular in the graduate program in creative writing. Okay, anyway,
Speaker 1: she had been given various awards. Her husband, Ralph I
Speaker 1: can never remember his last name, but she had a
Speaker 1: husband at one point and they had divorced years earlier,
Speaker 1: and he died of I believe Parkinson's probably twenty years
Speaker 1: ago now. Anyway, she wrote a book called The Battle
Speaker 1: of Algiers, Okay, which has been you know, quoted about
Speaker 1: in lots of ways about nine to eleven and the situations
Speaker 1: referring to that. She wrote Blood in the Water about
Speaker 1: the USS liberty, and I interviewed her about many of
Speaker 1: these things, mainly focusing on the JFK stuff, mainly focusing
Speaker 1: on the deep politics. But I proudly did that, and
Speaker 1: like I said, I selected her to be the first
Speaker 1: live interview, so I had somebody who's material I was
Speaker 1: familiar with and I was comfortable with, and I knew
Speaker 1: would be a serious first punch throne in the ring
Speaker 1: from my media experiment, somebody that was going to present
Speaker 1: real information studied from an independent point of view. Was
Speaker 1: a rare woman in the field of conspiracy type writing,
Speaker 1: and I thought, perfect, this is who I need. Anyway,
Speaker 1: our relationship continued on for many years, and we were friends,
Speaker 1: and I advised her and had little arguments with her
Speaker 1: over the years and this and that, and even at
Speaker 1: one point I think, now I'm a little uncertain on
Speaker 1: the timeline here, but I do know that at one
Speaker 1: point she was asking me my opinion about how to
Speaker 1: handle Walt Brown regarding getting a hold of some materials
Speaker 1: she needed for that book. Faustian bargain about you know
Speaker 1: Mac Wallace, and she went in with the intent of
Speaker 1: laying out once and for all, here's Mac Wallace, the
Speaker 1: unknown JFK Assassin, because people had gotten her to take
Speaker 1: that idea seriously, and when she studied it and found
Speaker 1: that the fingerprint was bogus and been published it, it
Speaker 1: outraged the community to a degree that people just do
Speaker 1: not want to hear. I even brought that up with
Speaker 1: Billy Celestie's grandson on the show, right, and I swe
Speaker 1: whereby a whole majority of what Joan has written on
Speaker 1: the case, she's been absolutely accurate, correct, and perfectly notable.
Speaker 1: If you want to get into the serious study of
Speaker 1: the facts, the case, the history, the people. This woman
Speaker 1: did the work and I appreciated it for it. Anyway,
Speaker 1: cutting to the chase and getting to more recent years,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty comes around and I'm still in contact with
Speaker 1: Joan off and on. I had had her on the
Speaker 1: show every time she published a book. I would tell her,
Speaker 1: I gotta have you on. I want to promote it.
Speaker 1: Don't care what it's about. I would love to read
Speaker 1: it first, but let's talk about it, and I would.
Speaker 1: I would get a book, I'd get it from her publisher,
Speaker 1: I would buy it, I would acquire it. It didn't matter.
Speaker 1: Sometimes she would send them to me, and sometimes she forgot.
Speaker 1: And that was just Joan. She was busy, and she
Speaker 1: only wanted to talk to people that wanted to be
Speaker 1: serious about things. Even when she participated in that thing
Speaker 1: with John Barber regarding the jfk assassination and Jim Garrison,
Speaker 1: she got angry because she felt that people were misrepresenting
Speaker 1: things in Garrison's history. So she wound up writing a
Speaker 1: whole book on that too, by the way, his life
Speaker 1: and times, you know, the sequel to Farewell to Justice,
Speaker 1: where she feels, you know, Garrison was kind of screwed
Speaker 1: by a lot of things that happened there In the case,
Speaker 1: she also turned around and decided to give people a
Speaker 1: full history of Jim Garrison in a biographer's way. By
Speaker 1: the way, Joan was an excellent biographer. And I always said,
Speaker 1: if I could get anybody in the world to write
Speaker 1: the biography about me, it would have been Joan Mellon.
Speaker 1: If I could have, you know, afforded her and who knows.
Speaker 1: Maybe I could have commissioned her for free, but I
Speaker 1: never asked. I didn't ask much of Joan. I did
Speaker 1: ask one though, for a book, because I had bought
Speaker 1: it three four times and people had either stolen it
Speaker 1: or it had been lost three four times already. And
Speaker 1: she said something one day to me when I was
Speaker 1: producing a show for somebody else about don't you have
Speaker 1: all my books? And I said, I have had all
Speaker 1: your books, but I'm missing one, and I would like
Speaker 1: it if I had one from you that was autographed,
Speaker 1: because she was willing to send to the host of
Speaker 1: the show a couple of books. So I said, you know, John,
Speaker 1: we've known each other for years. I'd love to get
Speaker 1: a book from you, but I got to give you
Speaker 1: my new address. She started to question me, and she
Speaker 1: was a skilled interrogator in a civilian way. When it
Speaker 1: came to getting.
Speaker 2: Facts out of people.
Speaker 1: When it came to really drilling down and instinctively digging
Speaker 1: in just the right spot to get out a piece
Speaker 1: of information, even if somebody was trying to hold it
Speaker 1: back a little bit, she was pretty good at it.
Speaker 1: She dug on me, and I tried to deflect, and
Speaker 1: I tried to defer, and I tried to kinds of
Speaker 1: things to find out if I was willing to take
Speaker 1: the vaccine to it. I said no, and also told
Speaker 1: her that I wasn't going to, and nor was anyone
Speaker 1: in my family going to. She flipped out on me.
Speaker 1: This was an extreme thing in her mind, that it
Speaker 1: was like an evil thing that people were not being
Speaker 1: vaccinated because the vaccine had just become available. In fact,
Speaker 1: she had a personal thing that occurred which people did
Speaker 1: wind up hearing about, where she called up I don't know,
Speaker 1: a congressman, state representative, something, freaking out, literally threatening to
Speaker 1: kill herself if somebody didn't come and give her a vaccine.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that Joan was one hundred percent right
Speaker 1: about everything in the world, and I disagreed with her
Speaker 1: politically and socially and in a lot of different ways
Speaker 1: about a lot of different things. But when it came
Speaker 1: to the stuff she worked on in research, she was
Speaker 1: usually pretty good. But we disagreed about people's personal freedoms
Speaker 1: and vaccination. So she swore, I will never send you
Speaker 1: a book unless you send me your vaccination certificate. So
Speaker 1: I told her, I guess I'm not getting a book
Speaker 1: and that's the way that sat. Anyway, she even requested
Speaker 1: that I help when she wanted to do a Lancer
Speaker 1: presentation and she was going to record remotely, because going
Speaker 1: back to twenty fourteen, even I had to help her
Speaker 1: with her Skype. She didn't know how to operate her
Speaker 1: Skype at all. I mean I barely knew what I
Speaker 1: was doing with the technology, but I knew how to
Speaker 1: use Skype in twenty fourteen, and she was nervous about it,
Speaker 1: didn't want to use it, didn't know how to use it,
Speaker 1: And several times I ended up interviewing her over the
Speaker 1: phone on the show, but the first interview I did
Speaker 1: was on Skype. Anyhow, her issues with technology and her
Speaker 1: issues with you know, understanding some complex things grew into
Speaker 1: something else. But during a certain time after the vaccination fiasco,
Speaker 1: and even before it, she had asked that I help
Speaker 1: her do her Lancer recorded presentation via zoom, and I did.
Speaker 1: I showed up the one time and did one with her.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it can be found out there, or if not,
Speaker 1: Lancer might release it, you know, or whatever, but I
Speaker 1: know it's available. And then a couple of years later
Speaker 1: she was going to do another one, and that was
Speaker 1: the same year that the QA non people flooded Daly
Speaker 1: Plaza and we're holding up signs waiting for JFK Junior
Speaker 1: to return. Anyway, Joan had postponed and canceled, and this
Speaker 1: was something that she did sometimes too, especially when she
Speaker 1: was nervous about using technology. This was commonplace. And then
Speaker 1: we me and Gabby were waiting around for her to
Speaker 1: show up to record her presentation for Lancer a couple
Speaker 1: of months before Lancer, and we got a message, I
Speaker 1: am not showing up. I am sick of the people
Speaker 1: in the community. I see these idiots on the lawn
Speaker 1: and QA Noon and all this, and I've had it
Speaker 1: with all of you. Conferences are garbage. Anybody who participates
Speaker 1: in them are garbage. And I'm done with it now.
Speaker 1: Joan had presented at Lancer, had presented at many places.
Speaker 1: In fact, I offered to be her bodyguard when she
Speaker 1: was petrified over the threats made to her by Roger
Speaker 1: Stone via email mostly but he threatened to do some
Speaker 1: pretty serious harm to the woman. Told her I would
Speaker 1: be her personal bodyguard in Dallas, Texas if she required it.
Speaker 1: But anyway, that didn't come to pass. Roger Stone didn't
Speaker 1: actually injure her. She did report him to the FBI
Speaker 1: and they did nothing about it. But anyway, roger Stone
Speaker 1: usually seemed to get out of things even when he
Speaker 1: seemed to do them.
Speaker 2: Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 1: But that's not what this show is about today. Back
Speaker 1: to the situation with the Lancer recording, I'm done with you,
Speaker 1: all of you people of the community. JFK. Everything gone
Speaker 1: because the QA non being on the lawn at Daily
Speaker 1: Plaza that year, and she was still maintaining this angry
Speaker 1: retort with me about I'll give you a book when
Speaker 1: I see your vaccination certificate. And I produced a couple
Speaker 1: of shows and then left it alone for a little while.
Speaker 1: Then I started to notice that Joan was acting a
Speaker 1: bit erradically problematically. She needed help. She was clearly declining
Speaker 1: a little bit. And the last interview I did with
Speaker 1: her was over this catfishing book she did Sherlock gets
Speaker 1: catfished or whatever, and it's about her getting sucked into
Speaker 1: some online relationship with somebody, and she writes about it
Speaker 1: in that book. And I have that book, and I
Speaker 1: did a show on that book on this network or
Speaker 1: on my little network anyway, put it out there as
Speaker 1: I would for any Joan Mellon book, because you know what,
Speaker 1: even if I don't agree with all of her conclusions,
Speaker 1: always stuff is so well written and deeply researched. Always. Anyhow,
Speaker 1: I had her on for that she would get angry
Speaker 1: at me and then vacillate back to not being angry
Speaker 1: at me. And then she sent me the wrong book.
Speaker 1: After finally acquiescing and not getting my vaccination certificates, she
Speaker 1: sent me the wrong book. I'll let that go. And
Speaker 1: then I wanted to interview her again, and I called
Speaker 1: her up and talked to her a little bit, and
Speaker 1: I decided I didn't want to bring her on the air,
Speaker 1: just like there was a time period with Jordan Maxwell
Speaker 1: where I could have brought him back on for one
Speaker 1: of his last interviews, and I didn't want to do
Speaker 1: it because Jordan didn't sound right and Joan wouldn't have
Speaker 1: sounded right, and she was easily set off. She got
Speaker 1: angry the last time she was on my show because
Speaker 1: I asked her a question from the chat room. She
Speaker 1: took it the wrong way and got angry and basically
Speaker 1: gave me all kinds of crap. Buy email messages for
Speaker 1: a couple of days, angry me. How dare your people
Speaker 1: even challenge me? She had clearly changed. She wasn't the
Speaker 1: friend of mine that was willing to make jokes and
Speaker 1: talk to me about the Mets. She wasn't the friend
Speaker 1: of mine I checked on to make sure that she
Speaker 1: was okay after bad storms rolled through Jersey or floods
Speaker 1: happened in her area. She was no longer the same person,
Speaker 1: but I still cared about her. I'll always respect her,
Speaker 1: and I'll always be happy that I got to know her. Now. Normally,
Speaker 1: when I do a tribute show, I bring on other
Speaker 1: people to talk, and I played a couple of clips
Speaker 1: of the person that I'm talking about. And I've only
Speaker 1: done a handful of tribute shows, but people that were
Speaker 1: meaningful to me, I do a tribute show to them.
Speaker 1: And I'm sad that maybe this tribute show was coming
Speaker 1: at a time when the o'celli effect is in danger
Speaker 1: of ending. But I'll always be able to say that
Speaker 1: I knew Joan. My life was improved for it. My
Speaker 1: base of knowledge and my ideas about efficacy when it
Speaker 1: came to writing were raised by her. The bar in
Speaker 1: general was raised by her, and anybody who was blessed
Speaker 1: to have worked with her understood her, recognized when she
Speaker 1: talked about Malcolm Blunt, it meant something. And look, I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily agreed with her that mister Beckham is so reliable.
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily agree with some of her characterizations of
Speaker 1: some people that she got to know and others that
Speaker 1: she maybe got to know. And I think an incredible
Speaker 1: cachet of information might remain sitting in Pennington, New Jersey,
Speaker 1: where she lived and continue to live and had trouble
Speaker 1: getting up and down the steps, and had trouble remembering
Speaker 1: appointments and everything else. Toward the end, I hope that
Speaker 1: she went peacefully and pleased with herself. And I will
Speaker 1: likely never meet another person who will be similar to
Speaker 1: Joan Mellon. And I say that with the deepest sincerity
Speaker 1: and putting all of my problems aside, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1: But with this caveat in mind, I'm going to play
Speaker 1: part of, if not the whole thing. I'll make a
Speaker 1: determination of the very first interview that was conducted live
Speaker 1: on The Ocelli Effect with Joan Mellon on February fifteen,
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, and maybe I'll pause it and make commentary.
Speaker 1: Maybe I won't know. I'm gonna just play this by here.
Speaker 1: I've got another piece of another interview that I selected randomly,
Speaker 1: But it's an interesting treasure trove of stuff that I
Speaker 1: talked to Joan Mellon about over the years on this show.
Speaker 1: And it makes me regret not having recorded all of
Speaker 1: my phone calls with her and stuff, because man, I
Speaker 1: would have some wild stuff there. Matter of fact, I'll
Speaker 1: never forget the first time when the Judy Baker story
Speaker 1: was like catching fire in the JFK community and I
Speaker 1: brought it to Joan and I said, jump, this Judy
Speaker 1: Baker thing is such bs. What in the hell can't
Speaker 1: you say something about it? I won't even dignify that
Speaker 1: with a response. You know, I interviewed twelve hundred people
Speaker 1: involved in the New Orleans situation, and I've got to
Speaker 1: tell you not one of them ever mentioned her because
Speaker 1: she wasn't there. I said, well, that's a good way
Speaker 1: to put it in any but yeah, she doesn't exist
Speaker 1: because it's fan fiction. I get it. But Joe didn't
Speaker 1: even want to dignify it with a response. For years
Speaker 1: and years and years that I kind of held against
Speaker 1: her a little, but I hold nothing against her now.
Speaker 1: Kind of wish she had a longer lifespan and sort
Speaker 1: of regret that I wasn't more age appropriate for because
Speaker 1: she had one of the most intelligent and creative minds
Speaker 1: that I'd ever encountered. Among all the authors I've spoken to, men, women,
Speaker 1: any topic, you name it, she was unique and I
Speaker 1: appreciate unique, and, like to quote another great wordsmith, a
Speaker 1: colorful personage is no longer among us. So with that
Speaker 1: in mind, I'm going to play at least part of
Speaker 1: the interview from the beginning of February twenty twenty fourteen.
Speaker 1: Excuse me, February fifteen of twenty fourteen, the day after
Speaker 1: Valentine's Day, the first time the Ocell Effect went live
Speaker 1: on ucy dot TV. And the funny thing is I
Speaker 1: had no idea what I was doing, barely understood how
Speaker 1: to use Skype, didn't know how to do a broadcast
Speaker 1: or make my own recordings or anything. I mean, I
Speaker 1: knew how to make recordings, but believe me, nothing like
Speaker 1: the level I understand today, and the technology existed then
Speaker 1: to do everything I do now, I just didn't know
Speaker 1: how to do it. So I got on a network
Speaker 1: like my other friends did, one of the alternative media networks,
Speaker 1: a small one, but I was proud. I was happy,
Speaker 1: and I was only doing my show once a week
Speaker 1: on Saturdays. Anyway, all of that aside. This is the
Speaker 1: first live broadcast of The Ocelli Effect from ucy dot
Speaker 1: TV on February fifteen of twenty fourteen, with Joan Mellon,
Speaker 1: the author of Faustian Bargain, the author of a Farewell
Speaker 1: to Justice, Blood in the Water, and a great many
Speaker 1: books which you're going to see on the graphic for
Speaker 1: this podcast. And who knows, maybe I'll just release the
Speaker 1: raw interview again from twenty fourteen, or maybe I'll do parts.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll do a second part to a tribute, because
Speaker 1: I don't want to make these too long. But I've
Speaker 1: already talked at you for a half hour. Let's hear
Speaker 1: what it sounded like. Eleven years and.
Speaker 3: A couple of months ago, at the age of nineteen,
Speaker 3: she was an intern.
Speaker 4: At the White House.
Speaker 2: Kick.
Speaker 1: By the way, here's a funny note. Just really quickly,
Speaker 1: I recorded and mixed a whole intro, and it took
Speaker 1: me like hours to do and I sent a couple
Speaker 1: of versions to the network to be played automatically before
Speaker 1: my show aired. This was the wrong version of my intro.
Speaker 1: This was the early mix that I made to give
Speaker 1: them an idea what I was gonna do before I
Speaker 1: actually gave him the finished intro. That's me on guitar.
Speaker 1: That's a guy named Jay Batistoni on drums. That's from
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two. That recording mixed with one of my
Speaker 1: YouTube videos, audios and some other mess that I just
Speaker 1: threw together to give them an idea what I wanted
Speaker 1: to do, and they played the rough version of my
Speaker 1: intro instead of the whole intro. Anyway, here it is
Speaker 1: as it was in twenty fifteen. Again twenty fourteen, excuse me.
Speaker 1: Trebulary fifteen of twenty fourteen, with author Joe.
Speaker 4: Getting a little look at Jackie's bedroom. Particularly was supposed
Speaker 4: to be a baby due league, and she had been
Speaker 4: and you retind during the three definition stuff there and
Speaker 4: that's where they had sex one time they had sex,
Speaker 4: and the swimming pool and they had sex, and you
Speaker 4: there in the third plays and oh, she thinks she
Speaker 4: was special. I'm very sure that he was good to
Speaker 4: say he was white and all. But I was special,
Speaker 4: you know, you know, I was whatever, and I wasn't
Speaker 4: the kind of girl.
Speaker 1: Was a bad girl, but I became a bad girl.
Speaker 4: Jamething influenced me. Deear deear wood with a dirty thirty
Speaker 4: old man.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: At one point she says that I see I think
Speaker 4: in the game she was introduced to him like eight
Speaker 4: powers kind of you know, put the introduction together and
Speaker 4: had go swimming with him. And then later on.
Speaker 1: She tells a story about half Kennedy wants sort of
Speaker 1: day power.
Speaker 4: She was, you know, this more straight laced specialist system.
Speaker 4: You know, Hey, don't help my friend relax this constuff.
Speaker 4: This was pretty interesting viewing. And you know, we have
Speaker 4: all these situations. I'd love to know why it takes fifteen.
Speaker 1: Years, you know, for.
Speaker 4: There were nineteen year old girl to events beget introduction.
Speaker 4: Should these things out?
Speaker 1: All right? And we are live.
Speaker 5: This is the O'Kelly effect. I am Chuck o'chelly, also
Speaker 5: known as the blind JFK researcher in some circles. And
Speaker 5: this is the first live broadcast of my show. Happy
Speaker 5: Susan B. Anthony data all of you out there, uh
Speaker 5: so for our first episode. I have decided to bring
Speaker 5: on one of the best authors I've ever been in
Speaker 5: contact with in any way, shape or form, to expound
Speaker 5: upon somebody that did what most of us really are
Speaker 5: trying to do in our own personal lives on a
Speaker 5: daily basis. We all fight the system in some way
Speaker 5: or other.
Speaker 1: Damn, there is a big difference in microphones from back then.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you I did the best I could with
Speaker 1: something that cost me about seven bucks and a laptop
Speaker 1: that I barely knew how to turn on. Oof. Boy,
Speaker 1: that sounds grating to me at this point. I have
Speaker 1: not listened to this, by the way, I'm listening to
Speaker 1: this with you guys for the first time in a
Speaker 1: long time. So anyway, this is the original version of
Speaker 1: it too. This is not that I put out a
Speaker 1: refined re release a couple of years ago with better sound.
Speaker 1: I improved the sound, I worked on it everything, But
Speaker 1: this is the original, raw, rough cut thing. Anyway. Sorry
Speaker 1: to keep breaking into twenty fourteen with twenty but man,
Speaker 1: this is funny, Okay, please enjoy.
Speaker 5: We all have our arguments with the system, and we
Speaker 5: often focus on the officers of many courts who are
Speaker 5: doing the misdeeds that cause all types of malfeasance to
Speaker 5: be present throughout the criminal justice system. But today my
Speaker 5: focus is going to be more on someone who is
Speaker 5: a true patriot, a gentleman that many many people, unfortunately
Speaker 5: have only learned about through people like Oliver Stone and
Speaker 5: the movie JFK, which was based on the life and
Speaker 5: times in some measure of Jim Garrison, who was the
Speaker 5: District Attorney of New Orleans at the time of the assassination.
Speaker 5: It's a great story. And although you see that film
Speaker 5: panned in many places as a fictional trail and a
Speaker 5: fantasy and everything else, very much of that film was
Speaker 5: real and Jim Garrison was a real person.
Speaker 1: Man, I talked too much, all right, I'm sorry about that, guys,
Speaker 1: but I'm playing it uncut, so apologies. Joan. It might
Speaker 1: not even be on the line yet. I might literally,
Speaker 1: because I'm live. I might be waiting for Joan to
Speaker 1: join and filling time for a moment we shall see.
Speaker 5: Anyway, in his position stood up to the system and
Speaker 5: the reason why, well, we're going to learn a lot
Speaker 5: about that today with again one of my favorite authors,
Speaker 5: Joan Mellon, who recently released a re released excuse me.
Speaker 5: It's a reissue, but it's an updated version of one
Speaker 5: of my favorite books that she authored, called A Farewell
Speaker 5: to Justice, which was all about Garrison and his attempt
Speaker 5: and his actual accomplished of bringing the only criminal prosecution
Speaker 5: ever for the assassination of our thirty fifth president. Joan,
Speaker 5: thank you very much for joining me today.
Speaker 6: How are you hi, Chuck, good to hear you. Good
Speaker 6: luck on your show, and I'm glad to be on
Speaker 6: to talk about Jim Garrison. I wonder if he really
Speaker 6: thought that he was fighting the system. He knew he was,
Speaker 6: but the only thing he wanted was to find out
Speaker 6: the truth about what happened to President Kennedy. That was
Speaker 6: his mission. It wasn't that this was an example or
Speaker 6: an aspect of how he felt about the system. He
Speaker 6: learned about the system through trying to find out the
Speaker 6: truth about what happened when President Kennedy was murdered.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was a true believer in the system. As
Speaker 5: a matter of fact. Prior to that, he was someone
Speaker 5: who had served in wartime in a very dangerous position
Speaker 5: during World War Two. He was really a patriotic individual
Speaker 5: that believed in this country, the principles that it was
Speaker 5: founded on absolutely completely, and he was definitely not the
Speaker 5: man that they have attempted to slander in the mainstream media,
Speaker 5: especially at the time Stones film was released. And I
Speaker 5: think that that's what I mean by he was a
Speaker 5: guy who was fighting the system, because when he found
Speaker 5: the truth, he had found that there was a big
Speaker 5: problem in the system, and he stood up with a
Speaker 5: lot of courage despite the fact that he was often threatened.
Speaker 5: He went out there and publicly and in his own
Speaker 5: capacity again as the District attorney there in New Orleans,
Speaker 5: did what he could to bring about the truth and
Speaker 5: justice in this case.
Speaker 6: He did a lot. And one of the I think
Speaker 6: the best document that I discovered after the publication of
Speaker 6: A Farewell to Justice was one from the CIA's History
Speaker 6: Group History Review Group, which was an internal document not
Speaker 6: meant for shown to anyone outside the agency, which admitted
Speaker 6: that what Garrison surmised but couldn't prove was in fact true,
Speaker 6: and it says that the records reveal that clay Shaw
Speaker 6: was a highly paid CIA contract source. Highly paid CIA
Speaker 6: contract source. Now the sentence adds until nineteen fifty six.
Speaker 6: But there's another CIA document that is more honest and
Speaker 6: traces Shaw's service to nineteen seventy two, which is much more.
Speaker 1: To the point.
Speaker 6: And I think that Garrett what Garrison struggled to prove
Speaker 6: unfortunately came years after his death, but it shows that
Speaker 6: he certainly deserves a kind of respect that he still
Speaker 6: hasn't gotten, not in the so called research community, certainly
Speaker 6: not in the media, mass media, any kind of media.
Speaker 6: And I think you'd very rarely hear his name on
Speaker 6: cable television or network television or at assassination meetings unless
Speaker 6: I'm there, or all of the stone is there, or
Speaker 6: the few people who support the Garrison were like Dick Russell,
Speaker 6: Jim Mars. Very few people even want to talk about Garrison.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, the fascinating thing to me has
Speaker 5: always been that. And by the way, for those who
Speaker 5: don't know out there, just because you know, I'm not
Speaker 5: sure the level of awareness people have or if they've
Speaker 5: watched the film, you know, in my audience right now,
Speaker 5: But just to get catch you guys up to speed
Speaker 5: a little bit, Clay Shaw was the individual that was
Speaker 5: played by Tommy Lee Jones in the JFK movie, and
Speaker 5: he was the suspect that Garrison ended up with and
Speaker 5: actually took to trial. And many of the mainstream historians
Speaker 5: and even people in the research community who claim that
Speaker 5: they are in search of the truth often cite the
Speaker 5: fact that Shaw was acquitted for the murder for the conspiracy.
Speaker 5: But the fact is that even in the CIA's own
Speaker 5: documents as they exist, and those documents were a lot
Speaker 5: of them made public after the outcry from the JFK
Speaker 5: film just in case our listeners aren't aware of this,
Speaker 5: those documents themselves, in some cases prove that the Central
Speaker 5: Intelligence Agency and other agencies within our own government directly
Speaker 5: interfered in the investigation, in the trial so that the
Speaker 5: guy was hamstrung by the government that was supposed to
Speaker 5: be there protecting our president, was supposed to be there,
Speaker 5: and claiming that it was just this loan nud Oswalt
Speaker 5: who had gone off and done it by himself. And
Speaker 5: it's almost fifty years now since the Warren Commission report
Speaker 5: was issued. It's been fifty year and a just went
Speaker 5: by the assassination. But fifty years after that lie was published,
Speaker 5: they are still in denial over the truth about what happened,
Speaker 5: and Garrison came very close to it, despite the fact
Speaker 5: that he had been hindered by the very government he
Speaker 5: was attempting to serve.
Speaker 6: Well, he was attempting to serve the truth about what
Speaker 6: happened to President Kennedy. I don't think he felt that
Speaker 6: he was serving the government. He was serving his constituents,
Speaker 6: he was serving the people of Orleans Parish, and he
Speaker 6: was serving the truth about what happened here to President Kennedy.
Speaker 6: I don't think there was an early, very early on
Speaker 6: that he you know, he made a joke of law enforcement,
Speaker 6: because what happened to his investigators in New Orleans was
Speaker 6: that well, they in the previous cases, in most of
Speaker 6: their cases, they had help from other agencies of law enforcement, such.
Speaker 4: As the FBI.
Speaker 6: In the case of the Kennedy assassination, the BI obstructed
Speaker 6: them and did surveillance on their office, followed their investigators,
Speaker 6: and generally put general put out the view, as Hoover
Speaker 6: put it down to the special agents at the field offices,
Speaker 6: that Garrison was quote a nut. This was Hoover's standard
Speaker 6: procedure for inconvenient witnesses. He said the same thing about
Speaker 6: Sylvia Odio, who witnessed whom Oswoald visited, calling himself Leon
Speaker 6: Oswald with Angelo Morgato and Bernardo de Torres at the
Speaker 6: end of September in nineteen sixty three, And just to
Speaker 6: refresh the audience memory if you don't know about the incident,
Speaker 6: these three people, two of them were Cuban and they
Speaker 6: came there supposedly collecting funds for their organization or whatever.
Speaker 6: And then a day or two later, one of them,
Speaker 6: Bernardo de Torres, called himself Leopoldo told Sylvia Odio, you
Speaker 6: know that Leon Oswald. He keeps talking about how some
Speaker 6: Cuban should kill President Kennedy because of what he did,
Speaker 6: his abandonment of the people at the Bay of Pigs,
Speaker 6: which which he did do.
Speaker 5: He did abandon the people at the Bay of Pigs.
Speaker 6: And so Sylvia Odeo, who was so terrified, she did
Speaker 6: testify that she saw Oswald, but was very reluctant and never,
Speaker 6: I think, I think she's still alone, never has identified
Speaker 6: the two Cubans who came to her door. But that
Speaker 6: was very hard work that I did.
Speaker 4: I did that.
Speaker 6: Nobody wants to believe me. I think it's very funny
Speaker 6: that Chuck, you should mention that today is Susan B.
Speaker 6: Anthony Day, because I think I never think about this,
Speaker 6: but some lately I've been thinking about whether a woman
Speaker 6: researcher in this field gets the same level of respect
Speaker 6: and has taken as seriously as the men. No matter
Speaker 6: what the what the research is, no matter what you've done,
Speaker 6: there's a there's that shadow, that cloud over being a woman,
Speaker 6: because I can't understand why people have not race this research,
Speaker 6: in particular about who visited Sylvia Odio. And I'm absolutely
Speaker 6: positive because I met one of them. That's Angelo Morgado,
Speaker 6: and he told me that it was Bernardo Detores who
Speaker 6: was with him. And he looked at me and he
Speaker 6: was staring into the middle distance, sort of as if
Speaker 6: he were talking to himself, and he was trying to blame.
Speaker 6: He loved the Kennedys. He changed his name even to
Speaker 6: Angelo Kennedy. He loved the Kennedys. And here he is,
Speaker 6: somehow participating in a frame up and a lead up
Speaker 6: to the assassination of President Kennedy was horrified by this
Speaker 6: and he just sat there looking as years and years later,
Speaker 6: after all, this was in the nineteen nineties, it was
Speaker 6: in the two thousands. I can't recall when that interview was.
Speaker 6: It's in the book. But he just stood and stared
Speaker 6: into the middle distance and said, but his brother was
Speaker 6: running for mayor of Miami, meaning that Bernardo de Torres
Speaker 6: was respectable, that there was no reason to doubt him
Speaker 6: that he would be involved in something so heinous a
Speaker 6: crime as the assassination of President Kennedy. And I first
Speaker 6: heard that, I didn't believe it. I heard it in
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety nine when I was interviewing a soldier of fortune.
Speaker 6: It was very close to these events, named Gerald Patrick Hemming.
Speaker 6: And of course Heny mixed the truth with the lies,
Speaker 6: and so you know, you can't take anything. I didn't
Speaker 6: take anything that he said at face value without verifying
Speaker 6: it with others. In the first minute, I walked into
Speaker 6: his house. It was in Fayetteville, North Carolina, and he said,
Speaker 6: you know, the only person I fear now, of course
Speaker 6: you never fear anyway. The only person I fear is Bernie.
Speaker 6: He didn't even give me his own name, Bernie. And
Speaker 6: then he said, and then there was also Angelo, And
Speaker 6: I said, at that point, this is several years before
Speaker 6: I met Angela and Morgano, I said, he said, and Angela,
Speaker 6: I said, Angelo? Who just Angelo? He said, And he
Speaker 6: dropped those truths in the midst of all sorts of
Speaker 6: other conversation about his own deal, his own problems with
Speaker 6: the Drug Enforcement Agency, which is, of course, I have
Speaker 6: learned since is a pseudonym for CIA and other things.
Speaker 6: And then years later I discovered and he introduced me
Speaker 6: to Angelo and Magana. I got into his house, I
Speaker 6: had dinner there and we talked, and that was very
Speaker 6: big for me because Angelo told me, and this is
Speaker 6: sort of a little digression, but it talks to how
Speaker 6: the research is done on these how difficult the research is.
Speaker 6: So Angelo told me that he had been sent with
Speaker 6: a group of Cubans to New Orleans during the summer
Speaker 6: of nineteen sixty three, and they and since Oswald, who
Speaker 6: was in New Orleans during the summer of nineteen sixty three,
Speaker 6: was training at Lake ponta train with anti Castro Cubans. Naturally,
Speaker 6: Angelo and his group became aware of Oswald, and they
Speaker 6: went back to Bobby Kennedy and they said, you know,
Speaker 6: there's this Oswald, And they also discovered Oswald's relationship with
Speaker 6: the Orleans Field Office of the FBI in New Orleans,
Speaker 6: and Oswald's handler was Warren to Brewis whom I got
Speaker 6: to know quite well, also died just a few weeks ago,
Speaker 6: and Bobby Kennedy said, well, if the FBI has him
Speaker 6: under control, we don't have to worry.
Speaker 7: Now.
Speaker 1: That's a.
Speaker 6: Quite understandable mistake, and it just shows the lack of
Speaker 6: communication between the agencies and how close Bobby Kennedy came
Speaker 6: to the plot regarding his brother, because this business at
Speaker 6: Sylvia Odios, after all, was a part of the framing
Speaker 6: of Oswald.
Speaker 5: And in September, right and a couple of little catchups
Speaker 5: for our audience here, Sylvia Odio, to put her in
Speaker 5: proper context, was the daughter of a Cuban person who
Speaker 5: her father. Let me restate that her father was at
Speaker 5: the time that this was occurring in prison, and I
Speaker 5: believe in Cuba because he had stood up in some
Speaker 5: way or had been considered a subversive by Castro's government.
Speaker 5: And these guys that you're talking about approaching her were
Speaker 5: the two Cubans and this Oswald character, which to this day,
Speaker 5: in my mind, it's very difficult to discern because I
Speaker 5: didn't get to speak to these guys that you're talking
Speaker 5: about myself, but it's very difficult to discern whether it
Speaker 5: was actually Oswald, or if it was simply part of
Speaker 5: a cover story where somebody was using the name Oswald.
Speaker 5: I had trouble with that myself. You might be able
Speaker 5: to shed some light on it, Noll.
Speaker 6: I think, Chuck that you have to. I'm going to
Speaker 6: go by Sylvia Odio's own identification that when Oswald was
Speaker 6: arrested in Dallas for the murder of President Kennedy and
Speaker 6: she saw him on television, she actually faked it. And
Speaker 6: that's the man, that's the person who came to see you. Right,
Speaker 6: What better identification, what more could you need? It was Oswald,
Speaker 6: all right? And it and if the very fact that
Speaker 6: Angelo Morgato had known him already before in the summer
Speaker 6: of nineteen sixty three in New Orleans also suggests it
Speaker 6: was os Well. Bernardo de Torres was a person who
Speaker 6: was going to be at daily plausas. And this, of
Speaker 6: course I can't prove because I couldn't talk to Bernardo Detoris.
Speaker 6: He had been out of the country and then he
Speaker 6: has returned to Miami. But I was told that he
Speaker 6: requires money to talk to researchers or interviewers, and that's
Speaker 6: just against the principle of independent research is to pay
Speaker 6: people for talking, and so I'm not a single person.
Speaker 6: I interviewed more than a thousand people over these seventy
Speaker 6: eight years that I did a farewell to justice, and
Speaker 6: I didn't give a nickel to one of them, because
Speaker 6: that's just not what you're supposed to do.
Speaker 8: See.
Speaker 1: I'm nervous here because a lot of times in private conversations,
Speaker 1: Joan would correct me if I misspoke. And this is
Speaker 1: a little rough because she she would correct me if
Speaker 1: I misspoke. So I'm being very careful about the way
Speaker 1: I'm wording things, and yet I'm trying to strategically set
Speaker 1: her up for different lines and different things that are
Speaker 1: happening here. So we're almost an hour into this, and
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna have to make a two part
Speaker 1: Joan Mellon tribute and I'm going to continue to play
Speaker 1: this stuff in a few minutes. But it's a very
Speaker 1: big long track. And so there's been some skipping and
Speaker 1: stuff in the MP three that I have here. It's
Speaker 1: because of the player I'm using. It's having trouble with it.
Speaker 1: But like I said, I have a more cleaned up,
Speaker 1: modernized MP three version of this somewhere in my archive,
Speaker 1: but this is the original and it was a very
Speaker 1: lightweight MP three and all that. And man, I'm talking
Speaker 1: too much, but I'm trying to direct the interview because
Speaker 1: i want to hit certain points. And even though I've
Speaker 1: got two hours with Joan, I'll tell you now that
Speaker 1: I can have conversations with her off air that were
Speaker 1: longer than two hours. Okay, So anyway, there's still a
Speaker 1: lot of time left on this interview, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to take a little break here on the show right now,
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five, and we'll get back to Joan
Speaker 1: Mellen in twenty fifteen after this.
Speaker 6: So it might have had dinner here and there, but
Speaker 6: nobody was ever paid.
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Speaker 1: Under rule of brass, Ralph Bulls beast smash fire flew
Speaker 1: through every.
Speaker 7: Faith in the truth about the JAFA assassination.
Speaker 1: Right, well, what do you want to know Judy.
Speaker 5: Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends you knew?
Speaker 1: Ruby and Barry answer weapons? Really, I imagine I could
Speaker 1: claim I have four wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon.
Speaker 7: But okay, Oswald was on the building and trying to
Speaker 7: prevent the murder of John Kennedy.
Speaker 5: Come on now, has a real effort on the Dafay
Speaker 5: assassination into claim.
Speaker 1: Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her
Speaker 1: own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy
Speaker 1: of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words
Speaker 1: and the known evidence in the case to get at
Speaker 1: well a different perspective. Let's say you can get Judith
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Speaker 1: signed if you request it by contacting doctor Brown at
Speaker 1: kias jfk at aol dot com. It's a fun book
Speaker 1: and it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims Judith
Speaker 1: Vary Baker in her own words. Thank you Information Shelley
Speaker 1: dot com radio network.
Speaker 8: The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national
Speaker 8: transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in
Speaker 8: the context of the times and reveals never before published
Speaker 8: information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not
Speaker 8: have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred
Speaker 8: years ago. His assassination took place in the context of
Speaker 8: the Cold War and the rise of the national security state.
Speaker 8: Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic.
Speaker 8: In the decade that followed, it became an imperial superpower.
Speaker 8: Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba,
Speaker 8: but knew that there were short range missiles on the
Speaker 8: island aren't with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy
Speaker 8: because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have
Speaker 8: led to a Third World War, and they wanted to
Speaker 8: go to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson
Speaker 8: reveals why, and we'll show you what President Kennedy was
Speaker 8: up against. For more information, the War State dot com.
Speaker 1: Oh Yo.
Speaker 10: This Doug Campbell, host of the Dallas Action podcast presented
Speaker 10: by Wall Street Window, and you are listening to the
Speaker 10: o'chile effect revelation through conversation, the.
Speaker 1: Use expressed like Coller storms, there anyone else who happens
Speaker 1: to get on the air of Jelly dot com do
Speaker 1: not necessarily reflect heews little Jelly dot com or Jeff o'chilli,
Speaker 1: and we are not responsible for getting stupidity which might ensued.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Chili dot Com.
Speaker 7: In Denial Secret Wars with air Strikes and Tanks by
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Speaker 7: operations and are still happening today. Larry Hancock's book In
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Speaker 11: It exposes things about the Bay and Pigs that no
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Speaker 7: Through car.
Speaker 2: So Chili dot com.
Speaker 1: So after that short break, we will return you to
Speaker 1: because today, as I speak, it is the you know,
Speaker 1: tenth day of July twenty twenty five, but this is
Speaker 1: from February fifteen of twenty fourteen, and Joan Mellon is
Speaker 1: talking to me about Jim Garrison. I interrupted, but anyway,
Speaker 1: I'll try and interrupt less as we go. And I'm
Speaker 1: going to break this into a second part. So if
Speaker 1: you're hearing the podcast later, which most of you will
Speaker 1: guess what, there is a part two to the Joan
Speaker 1: Mellon tribute on the o'celli effect, and there you go.
Speaker 6: Oh and of course Tour has never talked to anyone,
Speaker 6: and when he talked to by the way, he did
Speaker 6: talk to the House Select Committee on Assassination and the
Speaker 6: most marvelous commentary came from the chief investigator out of
Speaker 6: Miami for the House Select Committee, Gayton Phonsie. And I
Speaker 6: love Phonzie's remark because he was sitting in and the
Speaker 6: background for Detrres's testimony before the HSCA was that the
Speaker 6: FBI came in in the morning and mentioned certain dates
Speaker 6: about which they were not to talk to They were
Speaker 6: not to ask him questions, and then the CIA came
Speaker 6: in and gave their dates for one period of time
Speaker 6: when the lawyers of the House Select Committee were not
Speaker 6: to ask Bernardo Datoris any questions. And so Gayton Phonsie
Speaker 6: listening to all this, what Bernardo Detoris finally said, to
Speaker 6: listen to him, you would never think that of all
Speaker 6: one hundred thousand ors whatever Cubans that were in Miami,
Speaker 6: why they should pick this guy to question. And I
Speaker 6: thought that was really so succinct and so marvelous, and
Speaker 6: I recommend, By the way, there's a new reissue of
Speaker 6: Who Finds This book The Last Investigations, And I just
Speaker 6: wanted to call that to people's attention. I believe it
Speaker 6: was published by the Mary Ferrell Foundation under the auspices
Speaker 6: of the marvelous leader of that group, Rex Bradford, Right.
Speaker 6: And I've read the original version of the book myself.
Speaker 6: I haven't read the updated version, but I've got to
Speaker 6: tell you that a couple of points I want to
Speaker 6: make to my listeners here. First of all, listen to
Speaker 6: what Jonah is saying about doing the independent research. She's
Speaker 6: not trusting mere hearsay. She went out and spoke to
Speaker 6: people directly. When you want to know someone's perspective, you
Speaker 6: have to go to them find out from them directly.
Speaker 6: You can't simply accept hearsay evidence. And also, even though
Speaker 6: she was speaking to someone, she didn't absolutely take their
Speaker 6: word for it. She found other corroboration for these things.
Speaker 5: And I think that this is something to be taken
Speaker 5: note of by many many people who don't follow this
Speaker 5: type of ethical sort of pattern when it comes to
Speaker 5: their own writings and things, and they allow a lot
Speaker 5: of speculation to interfere with the very good facts that
Speaker 5: they could uncover.
Speaker 6: That's one I make if I might mention, underlining your point,
Speaker 6: I might mention a recent book about the Kennedy assassination
Speaker 6: by Roger Stone. And this is one of the chain
Speaker 6: of books. Is there been book, a book after book,
Speaker 6: year after year saying that Lyndon Johnson was really the
Speaker 6: organizer and plotter of the Kennedy assassination with his lawyer
Speaker 6: or his factotum on the Groundcliffe, Carter, and so forth.
Speaker 6: And if you look at that book, you will not
Speaker 6: find a shred of evidence for any of its assertions.
Speaker 5: And I'm so glad that you're mentioning that, because I
Speaker 5: was going to bring it up with you and ask
Speaker 5: you to just expound upon this entire, you know, genre
Speaker 5: of LBJ did it stuff that I started to see
Speaker 5: come to fruition really with the first airing of a
Speaker 5: very poorly done The Men Who Killed Kennedy episode which
Speaker 5: featured bar McClellan, and that's where that stuff really started
Speaker 5: to blossom. There had always been the idea floating around
Speaker 5: that Lyndon Johnson had something to do with the assassination,
Speaker 5: and the idea that he might have been informed of
Speaker 5: ahead of time is very possible. But there are books
Speaker 5: out there that literally describe him as a mastermind behind it.
Speaker 5: And these books are in some cases getting a lot
Speaker 5: of airplay in the alternative media and elsewhere, and they
Speaker 5: don't deserve it, because once you pull a few assertions
Speaker 5: out of them, the entire house of cards collapses. They're
Speaker 5: no better than the official lies that are out there
Speaker 5: and the househouse.
Speaker 1: Now there is proof right there, by the way, I'm interrupting.
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty five, again, there's proof right there. Because
Speaker 1: some people said, oh, you just listen to what Joe
Speaker 1: Millen said about you know LBJ doing it, and you
Speaker 1: don't understand. You know what, I already had information that
Speaker 1: pulled apart most of the LBJ stuff. I just didn't
Speaker 1: have the fingerprint beat. All I knew is that the
Speaker 1: examination that was done, which Walt Brown paid for. By
Speaker 1: the way, Walt Brown is the guy wrote the check
Speaker 1: to the guy that you see out there, you're oh no.
Speaker 1: And I've done this for many years, and I know
Speaker 1: how I was right. He wasn't even certified at the time.
Speaker 1: That was the only thing that wasn't beat. But I
Speaker 1: knew that evidence was not solid. And guess what. Unofficially
Speaker 1: people had examined it and said, this is insane that
Speaker 1: Darby thinks that this is mac Wallace's fingerprint. So what
Speaker 1: I was going on was unofficial off the book stuff
Speaker 1: and my own study pulling apart the LBJ did it thing.
Speaker 1: Madeline Brown was full of crap, except she did mother
Speaker 1: or child of his. But she was not the mistress.
Speaker 1: She was one of many chicks he man whenever he traveled,
Speaker 1: and she happened to get knocked up. And I do
Speaker 1: believe she had a son, but that never got proved
Speaker 1: in court either. Here's the deal, though she made up
Speaker 1: a bunch of crap. And I know that because of
Speaker 1: interviews conducted by friends of mine. I didn't even need
Speaker 1: to chase down Madeline Brown, who wanted to get paid
Speaker 1: and was also you know, writing bad checks towards the
Speaker 1: end of her life and all that. Didn't need that.
Speaker 1: Most of the LBJ stuff fell apart when you checked timelines,
Speaker 1: when you checked solid information, when you checked all kinds
Speaker 1: of things. This guy is not the mastermind or the
Speaker 1: leader of the pack. When it came to the assassination
Speaker 1: of John F. Kennedy, did he and was he directly
Speaker 1: involved in other murders?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 1: Was he also a slimy and completely corrupt politician? Yep?
Speaker 1: Was he getting bags of cash sent to him all
Speaker 1: the time? Yep? Did he cheat on elections? Yep? Welcome
Speaker 1: to Texas. Anyway, back to Joan, I just wanted to
Speaker 1: point out that for people who have said over the years,
Speaker 1: are you just de showed that when Joe Noon wrote
Speaker 1: a book and you just know she right there, Joan
Speaker 1: had not written Faustian Bargain yet, had not dug into
Speaker 1: mac Wallace. She was doing some of it. Some of
Speaker 1: the work was done already obviously, because she takes years
Speaker 1: to write these things. So I talked to her during
Speaker 1: part of it, and yeah, part of that stuff that
Speaker 1: I knew from her, the fingerprint she held on to
Speaker 1: for a while. I knew about it before the book
Speaker 1: was published. And in fact, she was sitting there saying,
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do because I know I'm
Speaker 1: going to get attacked, and I know people are going
Speaker 1: to come after me, and I know they're going to
Speaker 1: say I'm wrong, and Roger Stone hates me already, and
Speaker 1: and I said, well, Joan, can you publish it in
Speaker 1: an appendix? Yes, I can, and that's what I'm thinking
Speaker 1: of doing. I said, great, I will love cone that book.
Speaker 1: The next thing I knew is Vastian Bargin came out
Speaker 1: with the appendix that shows you the fingerprint evidence. But hey,
Speaker 1: you know, keep doing the LBJ thing.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: Rogers Stan.
Speaker 5: Committee, by the way, in case people don't know, that
Speaker 5: was the congressional body that was put together in the
Speaker 5: mid nineteen seventies and did investigate the Kennedy assassination and
Speaker 5: in addition to the Martin Luther King Junior assassination, and
Speaker 5: both of them found at the end regardless of the
Speaker 5: controversy and the troubles with their investigations. Both of them
Speaker 5: actually found that there was a likely conspiracy in both
Speaker 5: of these cases. So understand that when they point to
Speaker 5: the Warrant Commission, by the way, and they say to you, look,
Speaker 5: it's just the loan nut, it's just the Loane nut.
Speaker 5: Even the HSTA, which there are many problems with, including
Speaker 5: the fact that they claim that Oswald was certainly an
Speaker 5: assassin that day, they also do reflect the idea that
Speaker 5: there was a conspiracy. Now, I want to go further
Speaker 5: on this Lyndon Johnson thing, and I'm again so glad
Speaker 5: you brought it up. But there was one other thought,
Speaker 5: and I didn't want to lose it on Garrison, that
Speaker 5: even outside of the Kennedy assassination, he had won a
Speaker 5: decision in the United States Supreme Court where he had
Speaker 5: been given he had actually had to take this before
Speaker 5: many judges, before many bodies when he was criticizing public officials,
Speaker 5: and they tried to pillary him for this in the
Speaker 5: media and in the court system, and he won that
Speaker 5: case in the US Supreme Court.
Speaker 6: Well, to give some background about that, let me give
Speaker 6: a little background to that. It wasn't. What happened was
Speaker 6: that the judges of the criminal Court in Orleans Parish
Speaker 6: were very annoyed with Garrison because he was using money
Speaker 6: from the fees that were people defaulting on bail and
Speaker 6: so forth, and he was using that money to fix
Speaker 6: up his office and so forth. And so Garrison was furious,
Speaker 6: and he went and said that the judges on the
Speaker 6: criminal court were like the sacred cows of India, and
Speaker 6: that they were never at work. They celebrated all kinds
Speaker 6: of holidays, including he made up a few like Huey
Speaker 6: Long's birthday, in Saint winter Bottom's Day and so forth.
Speaker 6: And he also said that they were mafia connected. So
Speaker 6: for all those people that are still saying, like Peter
Speaker 6: Dale Scott that Garrison it was fronting for the mafia,
Speaker 6: here's Garrison in court saying, well, not yet in court,
Speaker 6: but in public, saying that the judges and they were,
Speaker 6: and he could prove it. Frank Costello was involved in
Speaker 6: one of them connected to the mafia. So the judges
Speaker 6: got very angry at this, and they met on bank
Speaker 6: that means all of them together, and they sued Garrison
Speaker 6: in court for criminal libel, and Garrison had to defend himself.
Speaker 6: He got a wonderful lawyer named dot organ And who
Speaker 6: didn't charge a cent. And Garrison lost. The judges won,
Speaker 6: and then he went on appeal and he lost again,
Speaker 6: and then his lawyer took him. They went to the
Speaker 6: United States Supreme Court, and they were very fortunate because
Speaker 6: New York Times versus Sullivan had already been passed and
Speaker 6: that gave newspapers the right to criticize unless you could
Speaker 6: show malice. And the Garrison case, which was Garrison versus Louisiana,
Speaker 6: was addendum to that and said that you have the
Speaker 6: freedom and underlined the freedom to criticize public officials. The
Speaker 6: opinion was written by William Brennan, Justice Brennan, who was,
Speaker 6: of course we know, the most liberal member of the
Speaker 6: Supreme Court, and there are no William Brennan's today, not
Speaker 6: even a shadow of the word.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: And so Garrison won that case. It was a great
Speaker 6: victory for him. And this is all before anything about
Speaker 6: Kennedy assassination. It hadn't there was I think that, uh,
Speaker 6: I think it was the earlier so uh. The other
Speaker 6: thing is that Garrison was very concerned about civil liberties
Speaker 6: throughout his years as District Attorney of Orleans Parish, and
Speaker 6: he often said the freedom of speech needs to be
Speaker 6: in an oxygen tent, that it always needs to be
Speaker 6: fortified because you can always lose it. And he fought
Speaker 6: against the police in in uh, New Orleans censored a
Speaker 6: book by which name was it another country? Now I
Speaker 6: can't remember, that was confiscated from the double bookstore. And
Speaker 6: now you'll and uh and uh he scares and opposed that.
Speaker 6: He and also he fought against the prevalent racism, and
Speaker 6: there were clanned bombings throughout New Orleans of his uh
Speaker 6: in the early years that he was uh just a attorney,
Speaker 6: and he pursued them most of He also refused to
Speaker 6: prosecute homosexuals who were regularly arrested and on what they
Speaker 6: called crimes against nature, and Garrison said, the only crimes
Speaker 6: against nature are hurricanes, cyclones and all this and made
Speaker 6: a joke of it, and nobody was allowed to prosecute.
Speaker 6: But none of his assistants were allowed to prosecute people
Speaker 6: on so called crimes against nature. And in fact, when
Speaker 6: Garrison put Clay Shaw on trial for participation in the
Speaker 6: conspiracy to murder President Kennedy, and that doesn't mean that
Speaker 6: that was the conspiracy that ultimately resulted in the assassination,
Speaker 6: but that Shaw was part of a conspiracy to murder
Speaker 6: President Kennedy and one that involved Oswald, the person who
Speaker 6: was allegedly the killer. Garrison was made sure that Shaw's
Speaker 6: homosexuality was never mentioned in court during the trial or
Speaker 6: any of the pre trial hearings. And not only that,
Speaker 6: he didn't call to testify any of the homosexual friends
Speaker 6: of Shaw. People, Well, why not, Raymond Brocheers, and why
Speaker 6: not and so on, and Garrison just just would would
Speaker 6: not do that. I thought he took a principal stand. Also,
Speaker 6: by the way, as a side note, at this trial
Speaker 6: of Clay Shaw, he also refused to call anyone with
Speaker 6: a criminal record, and that was a problem for like
Speaker 6: take Daego Garner and others who knew a lot about
Speaker 6: Certainly the relationship between Lee, Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby
Speaker 6: would have been good witnesses, but he was determined that
Speaker 6: that the that the witnesses not the have the undermined
Speaker 6: or by Shaw's defense on the ground that they had
Speaker 6: committed felonies.
Speaker 5: Right, He didn't want the character of the witnesses to
Speaker 5: to be brought to issue in the courtroom, uh, you know,
Speaker 5: during a time when the content of what they had
Speaker 5: to say was the most important thing. He didn't want
Speaker 5: the jury, the public, or even the record to be
Speaker 5: sort of distracted from the real issues and the idea here.
Speaker 5: The reason why I brought it up is because I
Speaker 5: wanted to add a little bit more texture to the
Speaker 5: idea of who this guy is, because so often you
Speaker 5: see authors all the way from then, which was in
Speaker 5: the late sixties, when when the Shaw trial ended in
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty nine, all the way from then till now,
Speaker 5: people have discussed how the guy was compromised, and he
Speaker 5: was crazy, and he had no principles, and he was
Speaker 5: just a publicity hound that really didn't have and all
Speaker 5: these terrible, nasty criticisms of the guy who was a
Speaker 5: completely legitimate stand up person, who was by no means
Speaker 5: a screaming radical of any kind. He was just a
Speaker 5: fair minded person who was in search of the truth
Speaker 5: and in search of justice. And I think that these
Speaker 5: types of things that we're talking about here are worth
Speaker 5: mentioning for that reason. You know, I don't know what
Speaker 5: you think about that, but I'm pretty sure you agree
Speaker 5: with me.
Speaker 6: Here. Well, yeah, of course I think that Garrison is
Speaker 6: an impeccable record on civil liberties, on racism, he often said.
Speaker 6: Somebody asked him, I think Richard Billings was from Life Magazine,
Speaker 6: came down to the office and Billings asked Garrison, this
Speaker 6: is something for Northerners and us in the East hard
Speaker 6: to understand. What is the Sovereignty Commission. The Sovereignty Commission
Speaker 6: was a state organization set up by this state, Louisiana
Speaker 6: and Mississippi to prevent integration. And so Garrison would joke
Speaker 6: and he said, well, what the Sovereignty Commission means? They
Speaker 6: don't want black people to walk on Royal Street, which
Speaker 6: he was joking. But there's a marvelous documentary, by the way,
Speaker 6: about the Sovereignty Commission that PBS put out this year,
Speaker 6: and you can really see how they were infilt, how
Speaker 6: they infiltrated the civil rights movement, and especially how the
Speaker 6: people who were Schwerner, Goodman and Cheney who were murdered
Speaker 6: in during Mississippi summer in nineteen sixty four, how their
Speaker 6: movements were charted by spies from the Sovereignty Commission that
Speaker 6: infiltrated the movement. There were also spies from the NAACP.
Speaker 5: That was the story that was dramatized in the movie
Speaker 5: Mississippi Burning. That was that's where a lot of people
Speaker 5: might might recall those names in case they had not
Speaker 5: studied the struggle of Dove.
Speaker 1: Though.
Speaker 6: I agree that people you should look and see the
Speaker 6: people who are involved in these cases and in all
Speaker 6: this history. You want to see if they look for notoriety,
Speaker 6: and if they do look for notoriety, you tend to
Speaker 6: look at their testimony and perhaps hesitate before accepting it.
Speaker 6: And one of the people about in a Farewell to
Speaker 6: Justice who was a ciass that was involved here as
Speaker 6: a possible patsy Thomas Edward Beckham and oh boy, and
Speaker 6: also of course his handler, Jack Martin, he was He's
Speaker 6: c I A. I think I proved in the update,
Speaker 6: the new update to my book that Jack Martin was
Speaker 6: certainly was certainly connected to CIA. But Thomas Edward Beckham,
Speaker 6: oh boy, because he gave such frank testimony to me
Speaker 6: when I interviewed him in Louisville. And Thomas Edward Beckham
Speaker 6: had been years a few years earlier represented when he
Speaker 6: was a lawyer by a judge in Alabama called Charles McKnight,
Speaker 6: who befriended Beckham, and when he read my book, he
Speaker 6: was very interested because he said to me, you know,
Speaker 6: the guy was so intelligent without an education, was no education,
Speaker 6: I mean, not even in elementary school, and so smart.
Speaker 6: And he liked him so much and he wanted to
Speaker 6: And then when he represented him, suddenly his office was
Speaker 6: robbed and all the files were taken and he the
Speaker 6: FBI said would you find this guy for me? Because
Speaker 6: Beckham had disappeared into the hinterland, and the FBI agent
Speaker 6: came back and said, he doesn't exist. I can't find
Speaker 6: anything about him. This was already in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 6: And after my just a year or so ago, Charlie
Speaker 6: McKnight called me and he said, do you have Beckham's
Speaker 6: phone number? Because he's still all these years later. It
Speaker 6: just kind of had an affectionate feeling for Beckham, and
Speaker 6: so I did. I managed to find his phone number miracle,
Speaker 6: and McKnight called him up and Beckham answered and he said,
Speaker 6: you have the wrong number. I don't know anybody by him.
Speaker 6: There's nobody here by that name. So he didn't want
Speaker 6: he doesn't want, he didn't want any attention He was terrified,
Speaker 6: really of being of the consequences of having been so
Speaker 6: close a witness to the Kennedy assassination. And when I
Speaker 6: first called him, the first the question that he asked
Speaker 6: me was is Jack Martin still alive? That fright Jack
Speaker 6: Martin frightened him. So to those who think that Jack
Speaker 6: Martin was just a hope, a drunk who hung around
Speaker 6: Guy Banister's office, we can talk about Guy Banister if
Speaker 6: you like in a minute, and really was a hapless figure.
Speaker 6: It was a religious fanatic belonging to these extraterrestrial churches,
Speaker 6: and not of and of no consequence.
Speaker 1: That was.
Speaker 6: It was very interesting to hear Thomas Edward Beckham saying
Speaker 6: that it weren't fearing even these years later Jack Martin.
Speaker 6: Jack Martin was dead, and luckily for me, that allowed
Speaker 6: Beckham really to talk to me, and so I went
Speaker 6: to Louisville and talked to him. There were so many
Speaker 6: and put some update in the update to a Farewell
Speaker 6: to Justice, I put some more information about Beckham and
Speaker 6: also about another of his handlers, whose name was fred
Speaker 6: Lee Chrisman, and who also appeared before the Orleans Parish
Speaker 6: Grand Jury. But by that time Garrison was exhausted, it
Speaker 6: was almost time for the Shaw trial, and and Chrispin
Speaker 6: just talked his way out of it. These are people
Speaker 6: who have no scruples about lying to a grand jury.
Speaker 6: The idea that you don't like to the grand jury
Speaker 6: is some fantasy out of the nineteenth century. I think
Speaker 6: we see also just as a slight digression, because he
Speaker 6: brought it up. And that is in the case with
Speaker 6: the Lyndon Johnson story of Billy Solestes, who is the
Speaker 6: only witness who says anything about Lyndon Johnson and a
Speaker 6: young man named mac Wallace being involved in murders and
Speaker 6: Billy clesties. When he got out of prison, a second
Speaker 6: stretch of in prison went before the grand jury in
Speaker 6: Robertson County and started accusing Johnson and mac Wallace and
Speaker 6: so forth about planning murders and whatnot. And the idea
Speaker 6: and that you mentioned that episode of the Men Who
Speaker 6: Killed Kennedy which had to do with the Lyndon Johnson story.
Speaker 6: Fatuous comment by one of the so called researchers whose said, well,
Speaker 6: there's no reason why a Billity Celestes would line except
Speaker 6: for the.
Speaker 5: Fact that he was an admitted con man, and he
Speaker 5: admitted he was a liar.
Speaker 6: He went in on the second trial, he stood before
Speaker 6: the jury and he said, I'm a liar, and I
Speaker 6: exaggerate and I brag. Those were the thing. And he admitted,
Speaker 6: you know, as if he were trying to disarm the
Speaker 6: jury with all of that and to use him as
Speaker 6: a witness for anything. I mean, he would not. This
Speaker 6: would not work a hold up in any court of law,
Speaker 6: and it shouldn't hold up in the court of history.
Speaker 6: Now history allows hearsay if you have to have it,
Speaker 6: uh in a way that a court of law doesn't.
Speaker 8: Uh.
Speaker 6: And but but it has to be presented I think
Speaker 6: with a caveat, and the caveat is this is this
Speaker 6: is here say we only such and such witness set
Speaker 6: it so and so claims. But in the case of
Speaker 6: Bility Celestes, I also have come to believe that he
Speaker 6: himself was implicated in one or more of the murders
Speaker 6: that he accuses mac Wallace of having committed.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 6: So it's a mess. And this is the only evidence.
Speaker 6: Getting back to what we were talking about before about
Speaker 6: the Lyndon Johnson did it a story. This is the
Speaker 6: only evidence. And if you quote, and it's not evidence,
Speaker 6: the only thing that they could point to. And I
Speaker 6: want to go back, if I may, to the whole
Speaker 6: issue how this happened this Lyndon Johnson did it book
Speaker 6: after book, year after year, whether it's Bara McClellan, whether
Speaker 6: it's Roger Stone, whether it's The Men on the Sixth Floor,
Speaker 6: whether the whole bunch of those books, and Phil Nelson
Speaker 6: is another one, many of.
Speaker 5: Them, right, And it's a great study and how quite
Speaker 5: often these distractions are sort of propagated by certain individuals
Speaker 5: who really just want to give you something to keep
Speaker 5: you away from the truth. And I think the lynchpin
Speaker 5: and all of those terrible stories that have come out
Speaker 5: that are just absolutely based in nothing, the lynchpin has
Speaker 5: been for these people that well mac Wallace was there
Speaker 5: that day, and the reason is they have this particular
Speaker 5: piece of evidence. And you and I had discussed this
Speaker 5: nowhere on the air anywhere, but I know what it
Speaker 5: is that we're talking about here, and I really would
Speaker 5: love to have you talk about that as well. So please,
Speaker 5: let's let's not forget to mention that one piece of
Speaker 5: evidence and.
Speaker 6: What it is I want to talk about where this
Speaker 6: comes from. In general. That is the historical overview of
Speaker 6: the Lennon Johnson did it, and I think that what
Speaker 6: will you have found? Jim Garrison of course set us
Speaker 6: on the path to looking at CIA in particular, but
Speaker 6: also other intelligence agencies cooperating in plotting the assassination. And Garrison,
Speaker 6: of course this has been said many times by me
Speaker 6: and others, didn't care who the shoots were. What he
Speaker 6: cared about was whose idea this was? Who is the plotter?
Speaker 6: And CIA, as I've said many times, others have seen it,
Speaker 6: put out a document in April nineteen six six which
Speaker 6: was directed to the CIA's media assets directing on how
Speaker 6: to how to counter the criticisms of various critics. Mark
Speaker 6: Lane was one and Jim Garrison, whose name is not
Speaker 6: in the document, was really the main subject because that
Speaker 6: document was issued at the time of the Garrison investigation
Speaker 6: in nineteen sixty seven. And so let me just so,
Speaker 6: what did CIA do in order to instruct its media assets.
Speaker 6: One thing was to accuse Garrison of being the dupe
Speaker 6: of the KGB out of the Moscow and in that
Speaker 6: case they particularly set their media assets onto the Piasa Sarah,
Speaker 6: which is an Italian newspaper that just at the time
Speaker 6: that Clay Show was arrested in March nineteen sixty seven,
Speaker 6: March first, Piaja Sarah put out a series of articles
Speaker 6: about a CIA front organization in Europe called permandex with
Speaker 6: a special sidebar organization in Rome called Centro Commercial on Monday.
Speaker 6: I think I have that right anyway, So Playshaw was
Speaker 6: a director of that organization. So here he is being
Speaker 6: the director of a CIA front organization at the time
Speaker 6: on the board of directors at the time that Garrison
Speaker 6: is looking into exactly what Shaw's CIA connections were. Well,
Speaker 6: what was CIA then going to do and tell its
Speaker 6: media assets? After this little bit of time went by,
Speaker 6: they decided to put forth the view that the mafia
Speaker 6: did it. It was really a mafia a plan and
Speaker 6: not at all CIA. And in that respect, they had
Speaker 6: several writers. One of them was John Davis who published
Speaker 6: a book called Mafia Kingfish. He was a cousin of
Speaker 6: Jacqueline Kennedy. And another book was the book that was
Speaker 6: published by Robert Blakey co authored with Richard Billings.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 6: Blake was the head of the Chief Counsel of the
Speaker 6: House Select Committee on Assassinations and CIA was deeply involved
Speaker 6: in manipulating and controlling the House to Let Committee, and
Speaker 6: I haven't a farewell to justice all a lot of
Speaker 6: the correspondence between Scott Breckinridge of CIA and Blake Ee
Speaker 6: as CIA looked at the questions that were being asked,
Speaker 6: if people edited the report that HHSCA wrote and so forth. Okay,
Speaker 6: So the years went by, and we have another of
Speaker 6: those books called Ultimate Sacrifice, and that book came out
Speaker 6: very coincidentally, exactly at the same moment that my book
Speaker 6: came out. So if I was going to say that
Speaker 6: Garrison was right and the CIA was behind the assassination
Speaker 6: in some way, here's the book by Lamar Waldron and
Speaker 6: a radio personality named Tom Hartman saying, no, No, here's
Speaker 6: the mafia right there. Well, years went by and this
Speaker 6: mafia had done it idea sort of warrants worth sin,
Speaker 6: and people began to ask how could the mafia have
Speaker 6: orchestrated the cover up? They might have been involved. They
Speaker 6: were involved with CIA, my goodness, since nineteen forty six
Speaker 6: and forty seven, when they involved themselves in Operation Gladio
Speaker 6: in Italy, before even the ink was drawn on CI
Speaker 6: a charter we could talk about that, because to know
Speaker 6: history of ci A is essential to understanding these issues.
Speaker 6: So then came the Lyndon Johnson. Well, if it wasn't
Speaker 6: the mafia, we need an alternate sponsor. How about Lyndon Johnson.
Speaker 6: And after all, Quibono, who he profited from the event.
Speaker 6: He was power hungry all his life. He wanted to
Speaker 6: be President of the United States. Wouldn't he be he'd
Speaker 6: be wouldn't he be a great sponsor? And so if
Speaker 6: you look at all these books of which I mentioned
Speaker 6: the Roger Stone, Laura McClelland been on the sixth floor.
Speaker 6: If you look at all these books, one thing that
Speaker 6: they have in common, in addition to blaming Lyndon Johnson,
Speaker 6: is that they never mentioned any involvement for knowledge or
Speaker 6: cover up by ci A. CIA is not mentioned in
Speaker 6: these books. Look at the Roger Stone and so there.
Speaker 6: So it's obvious, isn't it that this is that these
Speaker 6: people must be CIA assets. If they're not, they're they're
Speaker 6: they're saving the CIA money. These communists, they used to say,
Speaker 6: if you're not a member, then they're you know, they're
Speaker 6: deuced cheaters because they might as well be members of
Speaker 6: the Communist Party for what they're saying, and they're not
Speaker 6: paying their dues. So here I think we have every
Speaker 6: one of these books have that in common that it's
Speaker 6: and one of them on one a video by a
Speaker 6: Frenchman named William Ramon. He said it says the assassination
Speaker 6: of President Kennedy was an example of Texas justice and
Speaker 6: nobody at Texas mafia and nobody but Texas Texas and
Speaker 6: Texas was involved in the Kennedy assassination. There's your ultimate
Speaker 6: sponsor and that's the one that we have at this moment.
Speaker 6: So that brings us up today. Now I want to
Speaker 6: add one on a point because my book, I'm writing
Speaker 6: a book about Lyndon Johnson and mac Wallace. Well, who's Macwallace.
Speaker 6: Mac Wallace was a young man who, among other young
Speaker 6: men recruited by Lyndon Johnson, and there were many. One
Speaker 6: of them was that Governor Connolly, another one was called
Speaker 6: Horace Busby and Johnson gathered under usually they were presidents
Speaker 6: of the University of Texas and Macwallas had been a
Speaker 6: student at the University of Texas, was president of the
Speaker 6: student body in nineteen forty four and he was and
Speaker 6: after he fell on hard times. Lyndon Johnson scooped him
Speaker 6: up and took him to Washington, and he became he
Speaker 6: came under the umbrella of Lyndon Johnson. Now mcwallas did
Speaker 6: commit a murder for which he was tried and convicted,
Speaker 6: and that was the murder of somebody that was having
Speaker 6: a love affair with both Mike Wallace's wife and simultaneously
Speaker 6: it was named John Douglas Kinser, and he was having
Speaker 6: an affair not only with macwallas's wife, whose name was Andre,
Speaker 6: but with Johnson's sisters, Josepha, Josepha. So here goes Mack Wallace.
Speaker 6: I think he later himself told people it was a
Speaker 6: crime of passion. He goes in and he shoots John
Speaker 6: Douglas Kinser at his golf course. Kinzer was trying to
Speaker 6: set up a golf course nine holes and shoots him
Speaker 6: in cold blunt right there in broad daylight, with witnesses around.
Speaker 6: And to make a law, I won't go through the
Speaker 6: whole thing, but he was tried and he was convicted
Speaker 6: of murder with malice that when we call first degree murder.
Speaker 6: And then for various mass reasons not necessarily related to
Speaker 6: Lyndon Johnson, I have to say, but jury tampering. He
Speaker 6: was given a suspended sentence and didn't serve a day
Speaker 6: in jail, And so he was a murderer. So wouldn't
Speaker 6: he be just the one to blame for a whole
Speaker 6: bunch of murders connected with Billy Clestes and his crimes
Speaker 6: and felonies and scams and all these murders were blamed
Speaker 6: on mac Wallace only if we have only the word
Speaker 6: for this of Billy Clestes. Now, that may not be
Speaker 6: enough to say that Roy Johnson was the mastermind of
Speaker 6: the Kennedy assassination. But then we put that we need
Speaker 6: another detail out of this, and that is there was
Speaker 6: a fingerprint, one fingerprint up there on the sixth floor
Speaker 6: of the Texas school Book Depository, from which probably no
Speaker 6: one fired any shots, But there was a fingerprint that
Speaker 6: the Warrant Commission had among its exhibits that was unidentified.
Speaker 6: They identified all the fingerprints up there, including police, but
Speaker 6: one was they could not identify, and it sits, and
Speaker 6: they weren't exhibits, And so various researchers, not necessarily with
Speaker 6: bad will, decided tested and so and concluded that this
Speaker 6: was Macwallace's fingerprint. Well, if Macwallace's fingerprint was up there
Speaker 6: and he was associated with Lyndon Johnson, as indeed he was,
Speaker 6: then surely this proves, by this contorted reasoning that Lyndon
Speaker 6: Johnson must have planned the Kennedy assassination. Take away the
Speaker 6: fingerprint and you have nothing really connecting Lyndon Johnson with
Speaker 6: the mechanics of the Kennedy necessities.
Speaker 5: And that was the lynchpin that I was mentioning before,
Speaker 5: because the thing is that it is, you know, a contentious,
Speaker 5: uh you know, possibility that Johnson had exerted some influence
Speaker 5: possibly when it came to the Kinser trial, and certainly
Speaker 5: mac Wallace was involved with Lyndon Johnson, and Lyndon Johnson
Speaker 5: was involved. By by the way, it's not to say
Speaker 5: that Lyndon Johnson was an innocent or a clean uh
Speaker 5: you know individual when it came to you know, various
Speaker 5: There's been various accusations, some of them founded, some of
Speaker 5: them not well founded, about all kinds of things that
Speaker 5: Johnson did. Even publicly at that time, there were scandals
Speaker 5: about Johnson when he was vice president, being involved in
Speaker 5: various underhanded dealings and bribery type scandals and things like this,
Speaker 5: and it's a possibility. This is why it was very
Speaker 5: easy when you put that supposed fingerprint along with the
Speaker 5: fact that this guy was obviously like to put it
Speaker 5: another way, it's almost like he's a Johnson stooge that
Speaker 5: you know, at least that's the way he was represented.
Speaker 5: And if you imagine that he was involved in all
Speaker 5: these criminal activities, he was a murderer, as you just
Speaker 5: laid out, Uh, you know, clearly was a murderer in
Speaker 5: fact of kinser, then it would it was so much
Speaker 5: easier to take that tie it all together. But there
Speaker 5: is a problem here. Isn't their job.
Speaker 6: The problem is that it wasn't his print, And it
Speaker 6: wasn't and I did the I hired people and did
Speaker 6: the We did the most modern scientific analysis of the print,
Speaker 6: and it wasn't him.
Speaker 5: Right now, you could do it.
Speaker 6: They can swing from the rafters. It just wasn't his print.
Speaker 6: Now you're gonna have to make Now as far as
Speaker 6: Johnson's crimes, I'm really looking into Johnson's career. One of
Speaker 6: the most telling aspects of Johnson, and of course it's
Speaker 6: not it's kept out of the biographies Robert A. Carow,
Speaker 6: Robert Dallak, these people do. They leave Billy Solestes out,
Speaker 6: and they leave Madeline Brown out, who's a lawyer herself anyway,
Speaker 6: and they leave out a lot of They can't leave
Speaker 6: out everything. For example, Huh. They certainly couldn't leave out
Speaker 6: the fact that Johnson had no business being in the
Speaker 6: United States Senate because he subverted the election. And that
Speaker 6: was called Box thirteen. And I found new information about
Speaker 6: Box thirteen. But it certainly is mentioned in Robert Carroll's
Speaker 6: book The Billy Solestes Crimes that Johnson was involved in
Speaker 6: proffiting from the scams of Billy Solestes. You know, when
Speaker 6: people looked in, Johnson could keep his name out of everything.
Speaker 6: He could get involved in all sorts of criminal activity
Speaker 6: and his name would not appear. You could not pin
Speaker 6: any of it on him. People had a hard time
Speaker 6: everybody's looking and I could understand. But nonetheless, it seems
Speaker 6: pretty apparent that what Johnson did was to sell public
Speaker 6: office for no profit. And so all the contracts that
Speaker 6: went to Texas, he got a cut out of everything
Speaker 6: that Brown and Route that he started out helping them
Speaker 6: in the late nineteen thirties. The minute he got into
Speaker 6: the House of Representatives, and in the second phase of
Speaker 6: the Marshall Ford damn, not the first, but the second phase,
Speaker 6: they would this is what made Brown and root. They
Speaker 6: were nothing to for that. And to top it off
Speaker 6: of Brown and through Johnson's efforts, Johnson got on the
Speaker 6: Naval Service Committee, Naval Affairs Committee the minute he got
Speaker 6: to the House, with the help of Roosevelt. Franklin Roosevelt,
Speaker 6: who Johnson managed to tell convinced was that Johnson presented
Speaker 6: himself as a new dealer, and so Roosevelt liked it.
Speaker 6: The fact is Johnson believed that nothing, had no principles,
Speaker 6: had no morality, was a liar, but he managed to
Speaker 6: I don't know that flattery, tremendous amount of flattery and
Speaker 6: what some people call it the Texas charm. I don't
Speaker 6: find the Texas charm very charming. I find it chilling,
Speaker 6: but some find it charming, and they liked the flattery
Speaker 6: and whatever, And Sir Johnson got on the Naval Affairs Committee,
Speaker 6: and the first thing that he did there was to
Speaker 6: make sure that the Corpus Christie Naval Station, which was
Speaker 6: just this is at the turn of World War II
Speaker 6: was awarded to primarily, not totally, but primarily to Brown
Speaker 6: and Route. They had never built the military. Now after
Speaker 6: that they built many, many military bases, but that was
Speaker 6: They never had built a naval base. They never had
Speaker 6: built a ship. They suddenly became shipbuilders after World War Two.
Speaker 6: They bought from the government the pipelines that the government
Speaker 6: no longer needed gas pipelines, big inch and a little inch,
Speaker 6: and that became Texas Eastern, one of the biggest subsidiaries
Speaker 6: of Brown and Room and so forth. Now we cannot
Speaker 6: prove that Johnson was given a cut. We certainly can
Speaker 6: prove that illegal campaign contributions came to Johnson from Brown
Speaker 6: and Route because they were brought before the Internal Revenue
Speaker 6: Service for it, and Rosela had got them off with
Speaker 6: a very small fun and that was in the nineteen
Speaker 6: forty one election. Johnson had run for the United States
Speaker 6: Senate in nineteen forty one.
Speaker 4: And n one.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Joan just detailed a whole bunch of LBJ
Speaker 1: horror story, okay, and gave you some serious facts. Now
Speaker 1: I disagree with her about some of the stuff she said.
Speaker 1: But Brown and Root later on gets folded into a
Speaker 1: little thing called Haliburton, and they're profiteering over Vietnam. I
Speaker 1: didn't even mention it here, but check it out. There's
Speaker 1: the stuff she's talking about.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 1: She thinks Johnson just sold political office, but he had
Speaker 1: some serious, just you know, straight up criminal enterprises going on,
Speaker 1: and if people got in away or look to make
Speaker 1: some noise or actually could effectively throw things off, they
Speaker 1: were gotten rid of for very small amounts of cash.
Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying that mac Wallace was a hitman,
Speaker 1: but he did kill Kenser got off on that weird,
Speaker 1: you know, only in Texas law kind of thing, and
Speaker 1: looks like Johnson might have had a little something to
Speaker 1: do with that. But anyway, lots of stuff to dig
Speaker 1: into there. And see how packed an interview is with Joan.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to talk to her about Garrison. It goes
Speaker 1: into I mentioned something she tears off on because I
Speaker 1: knew the work she was doing. She hadn't published Faustian
Speaker 1: Bargain yet, but she had done she did research. Matter
Speaker 1: of fact, there's probably five six books worth of research
Speaker 1: and interviews and things easily that like a horrible author
Speaker 1: could dump into a program that Joan put together that
Speaker 1: could be solid historical records of various things. The extra
Speaker 1: stuff that wasn't included in the manuscripts to some of
Speaker 1: these other books. There's more stuff on mac Wallace that
Speaker 1: wasn't included in Faustian Bargain. There's more stuff that wasn't
Speaker 1: included in Farewell to Justice. I gotta tell you I
Speaker 1: had knowledge of some of it, so, you know, breaking
Speaker 1: down the fourth wall here. I was revealing and getting
Speaker 1: her to reveal stuff, and I didn't think she was
Speaker 1: going to go in certain directions because books hadn't been
Speaker 1: published yet. A bunch of them had not been published yet.
Speaker 1: It was crazy, crazy time. Anyway, I'm going to continue
Speaker 1: this tribute in a part two coming up, so I'm
Speaker 1: going to ask you to continue to listen to the
Speaker 1: Ocelli effect. I think I'm going to continue to play
Speaker 1: this interview in part two, and I'm going to play
Speaker 1: a piece at least from another one on a completely
Speaker 1: different subject, and we'll see where that goes. There are
Speaker 1: some years apart here, and like I said, only a
Speaker 1: couple of years back I had interviewed her about her
Speaker 1: cat Fishing book two. And maybe I'll figure out a.
Speaker 11: Way to dig that.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's still probably available. If you go down
Speaker 1: on the Speaker list, you might be able to find
Speaker 1: that old Joan Mellon interview still up there, because I
Speaker 1: try and keep the best stuff on that list as
Speaker 1: long as I can until I run out of space
Speaker 1: for the RSS feed on Spreaker, which is paid till
Speaker 1: next year. So even if my show stops producing new stuff,
Speaker 1: guess what, that Spreaker feed will still be there for
Speaker 1: a year, So download and get what you can while
Speaker 1: you can. Please. Anyway, I'm going to continue the o'celli
Speaker 1: effect tribute to Joan Mellon after I take a quick
Speaker 1: pause here and we go to break, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to break the stream so that we break this into
Speaker 1: separate files for people to get hold of. Maybe we'll
Speaker 1: do three parts. I don't know, but at least two
Speaker 1: parts tribute to Joan Mellon here on this July tenth
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: People stick around
Speaker 4: Sh