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No purchase necessary void We're prohibited by law 23 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:59.880 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply. See website for d. 24 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.760 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 25 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.879 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.239 written about him Geesy Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK. Every 27 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.959 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.239 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:43.159 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 30 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:47.400 By the time of her execution, at thirty six, Maria 31 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:51.200 Mandel had achieved the highest rank possible for a woman 32 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:54.599 in the third right. As head overseer of the women's 33 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:58.599 camp at Auschwitz Berkanal, she was personally responsible for the 34 00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:02.480 murders of thousands and for the torture and suffering of 35 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:08.039 countless more. In this riveting biography, Susan J. Eischeid explores 36 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:11.319 how Maria Mandel, regarded locally as a nice girl from 37 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:15.199 a good family, came to embody the very worst of humanity. 38 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:19.759 Born in nineteen twelve in the scenic Austrian village of Munskirken, 39 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:23.960 Maria enjoyed a happy childhood with loving parents who later 40 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:27.360 watched in anguish as their grown daughter rose through the 41 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:31.319 Nazi system. Mandel's light mirrors the period in which she 42 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:36.919 lived turbulent, violent, and suffused with paradoxes. At Auschwitz Berkanal, 43 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:41.400 she founded a notable women's orchestra and adopted several children 44 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:44.879 from the transports, only to lead them to the gas chambers. 45 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:48.639 When her interest waned after the war, Maria was arrested 46 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:52.759 for crimes against humanity. Following a public trial attended by 47 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:56.520 the international press, she was hanged in nineteen forty eight. 48 00:02:56.919 --> 00:03:01.560 For two decades, Eischeid has excavated the details of Mandel's 49 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:06.680 life story, drawing on archival testimonies, speaking to dozens of witnesses, 50 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.719 and spending time with Mandel's community of friends and neighbors 51 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.840 who shared their memories as well as those handed down 52 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.719 in their families. The result is a chilling and complex 53 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:22.840 exploration of how easily an ordinary citizen chose the path 54 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:26.319 of evil in a climate of hate and fear. The 55 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:28.960 book that we're featuring this evening is Mistress of Life 56 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:32.560 and Death, The Dark Journey of Maria Mandel, the head 57 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:37.800 overseer of Auschwitz Birkanal, with my special guest musician and 58 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:42.039 author Susan jay Eischeide. Welcome to the program and thank 59 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:45.639 you very much for this interview. Susan Eyeschide, thank. 60 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:47.599 You very much for having me. I'm happy to be here. 61 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:52.159 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this very impressive 62 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:53.439 and extraordinary book. 63 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:55.080 Thank you. I really appreciate that. 64 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:58.919 Now, by training and your credentials, you are a musician 65 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:03.080 and a classic oboist, and you had a strong interest 66 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:06.680 you write in music and musicians of the Holocaust. Tell 67 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:10.479 us how you became involved with writing this book about 68 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:15.360 Maria Mandl and the connection to your primary interest, WHI 69 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:17.079 is music? Tell us about that. 70 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:22.160 Sure, I've been a performer performing musician for many years now, 71 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:25.600 and early on in my career, in addition to playing 72 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:29.240 in orchestras and teaching at a university, I began to 73 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:32.639 perform music that was written in the Holocaust and doing 74 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:35.759 a lot of research into the topic. And as part 75 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:40.680 of my research and discovery of this amazing material about music, 76 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:45.480 I also discovered the many musical activities that existed in 77 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:50.480 Hitler's camps and ghettos. Somewhat extraordinarily, most of the concentration 78 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:55.160 in death camps had artistic activities, including musical activities, and 79 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:59.439 I became very interested in an orchestra that was formed 80 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:02.759 in the death camp of Auschwitz, Bert Canal. This orchestra 81 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:05.920 was unique in that it was the only women's orchestra 82 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:09.480 in the entire Nazi camp system. And as I learned 83 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:13.480 more about the orchestra and began to interview survivors of 84 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:17.519 that orchestra, I became acquainted with the story of Maria Mandel, 85 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:22.920 and she was the highest ranking SS female auxiliary in 86 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:26.480 the camps. She was head overseer at Ashchwitz Beer can 87 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.240 Now during a lot of the story that I tell, 88 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:33.160 and so I became interested in her, like, how did 89 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:38.040 this person responsible for so many deaths and atrocities also 90 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:41.680 have this side where she found great comfort and solace 91 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:46.720 in music. And however, inadvertently she did create the orchestra, 92 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:49.680 which in turn say helped save the lives of the 93 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:53.920 women in that orchestra, although that certainly wasn't her primary intent. 94 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:57.279 And so as I dug more and more into Mandel's 95 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:00.639 story and learned more about her, I just covered that 96 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:06.399 she wasn't sort of intrinsically evil, natural born killer. She'd 97 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:10.639 been born into a very warm, supportive, loving family. She 98 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:13.000 was always known as a very nice girl from a 99 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:16.759 good family and for me. The greatest question which then 100 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:22.160 emerged was this idea of how this otherwise normal, compassionate, 101 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:27.759 nice person turned into an extraordinarily evil perpetrator in the Holocaust, 102 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:32.600 and sort of what factors led to that transformation and 103 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:34.800 sort of the things we could learn from that in 104 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:37.480 a broader sense. So that's sort of how I got 105 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:38.319 into the topic. 106 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:43.000 Incredible, Let's talk about that upbringing and what you learn 107 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:46.199 from it. Talk about she was born in nineteen twelve 108 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:49.160 in a beautiful Austrian village of and I'll get you 109 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:53.079 to pronounce this properly, Moon's clerk in tell us about 110 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:55.120 her early life and her parents. 111 00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:00.920 Sure village is Munskirchen. And if you're familiar with German 112 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:05.759 and Austrian geography, probably the largest town is Passeu in Germany. 113 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.399 It's on a conjunction of three rivers, and muns Kirshen 114 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.240 is across one of the rivers in a more rural 115 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.319 part of Austria. Her parents, her father's name was Franz Mano, 116 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:19.240 and he was a master shoemaker. He had sort of 117 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:22.319 a big business in town with like most of the 118 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:24.560 people who lived in Munskirshen. Then there was also an 119 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:27.839 accompanying farm where they grew all their own food. And 120 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:30.839 Maria's mother, who was named Anna and she was also 121 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:34.720 from nearby village. Together they had four children, of which 122 00:07:34.759 --> 00:07:37.560 Maria was the baby, so she was the youngest child 123 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:42.879 and she was raised in this very nurturing household. Again, 124 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:46.240 that was in the nineteen twenties, you know, in Austria, 125 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:48.839 so the norms were somewhat different than we're used to. 126 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:52.959 Women were very much second class citizens, so usually her 127 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.160 goal growing up in most of the young women was 128 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:58.279 they aimed to get married and have a family, and 129 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.920 that was sort of the considered an expected thing. Maria's 130 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.319 mother suffered from depression throughout her lifetime, so she had 131 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.160 a lot of challenges. But ultimately Maria grew up in 132 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:12.480 this family and until the Anschluze, which is when Australia 133 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:15.120 was annexed by Germany, her life was really on a 134 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:17.519 good trajectory. She had gotten a job in the local 135 00:08:17.560 --> 00:08:20.360 post office, she was engaged to be married to a 136 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.279 young man in the community, and so everything was going 137 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.680 pretty well for her until that point. 138 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.279 Tell us about her father's political leanings and how that 139 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:34.440 got her fired from the post office, and what was 140 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:39.120 the climate at that time regarding people that didn't sign 141 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:41.919 up for the National Socialist Party. 142 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:45.360 Sure, well, Munskirkin, especially in the years leading up to 143 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:48.559 the Anschlus had a couple of different political parties. There 144 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:51.240 were the sort of the Nazi Party coming up her 145 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:54.720 Foul Pay my German Actions not Great, which was a 146 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:59.399 Christian social Democrat kind of party. So Franz Mondel was 147 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:02.200 sort of leader in that party and in the community, 148 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:06.120 and so her family was definitely not Nazi. They did 149 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:10.559 not support the Nazis. Franz was actually pretty outspoken against 150 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:13.519 the Nazis. And then of course when the Nazis came 151 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:17.519 to power, that was the big reason. Her then fiance 152 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:20.159 had been was a member of the Nazi Party, was 153 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:24.279 coming up in the ranks, and he essentially dumped her. 154 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:27.440 He said, I can't have a fiance or you know, 155 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:29.919 my future wife cannot be someone who does not support 156 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:33.000 the Nazi Party. So I think the great irony of 157 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:36.080 Maria's life, and the great tragedy for all of her 158 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:39.799 victims down the road, is that had she not been 159 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:42.919 fired for not being a Nazi from this job, she 160 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:46.360 probably would not have followed this path into evil that 161 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:47.320 she ended up. 162 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:51.320 Pursuing Interesting Now, what does she do in response to 163 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:54.679 this heartbreak of the fiance? Where does she travel to 164 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:57.799 and what does she try to get a job doing 165 00:09:58.000 --> 00:09:59.720 and what does she end up working? 166 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.840 Sure, well, after she lost her job, I think she 167 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:05.399 was just looking for a new start, a new beginning, 168 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.679 so she traveled to Munich where she had some family. 169 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:12.000 I believe her uncle was living there and at the 170 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:15.240 time begun to see the establishment of some of the 171 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.799 early concentration camps. And at that point there was only 172 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:23.519 one concentration camp specifically designated for women, and that was Liechtenberg, 173 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:27.480 which was in Germany, and they needed to recruit personnel 174 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:29.600 to be guards in the camp. Most of the young 175 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:32.679 men were either being recruited into the army or working 176 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:37.159 at other camps for men. So they decided to embark 177 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:40.440 on a kind of classified ad campaign where they were 178 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:43.639 trying to attract women to apply for these positions. So 179 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:46.559 they actually put ads in the paper overseers saught. I 180 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:49.480 think the phrase they used was a camp for asocial women, 181 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:52.919 something like that, not really stating explicitly that it was 182 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:57.240 a concentration camp and that all signified And I believe 183 00:10:57.639 --> 00:10:59.399 Ye's uncle saw the ad in the paper, said why 184 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:02.519 don't you apply for this? And so she literally was 185 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:06.039 just looking for a job and went ahead and applied 186 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.919 for one of those guard positions at Lichtenberg. And ironically 187 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:12.960 she said at that time, if I hadn't gotten this job, 188 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:15.240 I would have trained to become a nurse. And I 189 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:18.519 always sort of thinking of how she transformed later shut 190 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:20.039 her at the thought. But that might have been the 191 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.320 saving of her as well. So you know, it's hard 192 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:24.960 to say in hindsight. So she ended up being hired, 193 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:27.039 and that's how she began her camp service. 194 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:29.360 Tell us, as you write in the book about some 195 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:33.039 of the training and the indoctrination used to prepare these 196 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:36.919 women board the overseers at these concentration camps, this one 197 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:37.559 in particulate. 198 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:38.200 Sure. 199 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:38.639 Well. 200 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:42.360 At Lichtenburg they were just beginning to standardize the training 201 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:46.120 for the young overseers, but Grant usually they would apprentice 202 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:48.559 to someone who'd been there and follow them around for 203 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:50.879 a couple of months until they were able to assume 204 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:55.399 their own responsibilities. Later on, it became pretty sophistic good 205 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:59.600 way of training. It was like you were desensitizing the 206 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:04.639 guards to the humanity of the prisoners. You were creating 207 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:07.000 what later came to be called a cultural of cruelty, 208 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:10.639 where you would be rewarded. The crueler you were, the 209 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:14.600 more praise you would get, the more they normalized the behavior. 210 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:18.600 And after a while, although some women, you know, just 211 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.759 once they realized what was happening, left, most of them 212 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:26.000 stayed and became sort of indoctrinated in that system and 213 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.000 accepted that as their new reality and as a way 214 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:32.159 to move forward with a good job and benefits on 215 00:12:32.200 --> 00:12:34.960 a place to live and all of those things. And 216 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:40.240 certainly Maria did that. She assimilated much very quickly. That's 217 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:43.080 one of the interesting things about her story. It's almost 218 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:46.919 like one day she was this sweet, beautiful, young, innocent woman, 219 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:49.960 and some of the early prisoners they remember her that way, 220 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:53.360 and then almost overnight she transformed into one of the 221 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:56.440 most brutal guards there in term got a lot of 222 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:59.639 praise for that, and then that allowed her to race 223 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:02.159 through that ranks down the road when she had moved 224 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:04.440 to other camps. So I'm sure we'll talk about Robinsbrook 225 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.159 in the minute. She became sort of the overseer for 226 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:09.879 all of the training of young women in that camp, 227 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:11.639 and by the end of the where they had trained 228 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:14.039 I think between three and four thousand young women in 229 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:16.320 these roles. So it wasn't just a few women. There 230 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.919 were a lot women, a lot of women who decided 231 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:20.320 to follow this path as well. 232 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:24.519 What were the living quarters like for the prisoners at 233 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:28.919 e Lichtenberg and what were the living accommodations for the 234 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:30.200 staff like Maria? 235 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.960 The living quarters for the prisoners were pretty brutal. That's 236 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:37.320 Lichtenburg is like an old castle. I think it dates 237 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.799 from the medieval period or the Renaissance period. So it's 238 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:45.600 this big stone, dark, dank edifice with these huge, sort 239 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.799 of lofty kinds of rooms, and for the prisoners, they 240 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:51.960 literally crammed, you know, hundreds of prisoners in a room, 241 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:55.320 very little means of sanitation. They might have like one 242 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:58.480 bucket that everybody would use as the bathroom. And most 243 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:00.879 of the women were engaged in heart labor out during 244 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:05.039 the day, their outdoor labor or inside labor, creating things 245 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:07.799 that could be sold or textiles or things like that. 246 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:10.799 For the where the guards lived at Liechtenberg, I don't 247 00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:13.840 know a lot about that. There's not a lot of documentation. 248 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:16.759 Most of them. I believe either had separate quarters in 249 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.159 the castle that were considerably nicer, or lived out in 250 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:23.080 the community very close to the campsite, and then came 251 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:23.799 into work. 252 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:27.799 You say at that time Maria began to beat people. 253 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:29.679 Certainly, yes, that's correct. 254 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:34.000 What was the event that inspired her more than anything 255 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.240 to succeed, I guess in this new environment. 256 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:40.080 I think it was a combination. I think she really, 257 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:43.519 to my mind, had a kind of breakdown after being 258 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:46.960 dumped by her fiance. There was really a great stigma 259 00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:49.639 in Germany and in Austria at that time for a woman. 260 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:52.480 She was in her mid twenties. Now, she wasn't married. 261 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:55.840 She had always wanted children, So the fact that she 262 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:59.919 had no man in sight and had lost her job, 263 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:02.960 I think this was a way where she could get respect, 264 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:06.879 she could get she had power, she could sort of 265 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:10.039 fight back against this perception that she wasn't worthy because 266 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.159 you know, he had dumped her. So I think she 267 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:16.679 got all of those things through this job, and gradually 268 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:18.799 she just did what she needed to do to be 269 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.960 successful in the job and climbed the ranks very quickly. 270 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:24.879 Now there was talk of a new camp being built 271 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:29.360 and by Robinsbrook, and so tell us about Maria being 272 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:31.600 assigned to this new facility. 273 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.519 Sure, eventually, as the war kicked off and more and 274 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:39.039 more women were being arrested, Himmler made the decision to 275 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:42.440 build a new concentration camp just for women. Was located 276 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:46.039 located north of Berlin, near a little town called Furstenburg. 277 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:49.080 And this new camp was called the Robinsbrook And so 278 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:53.279 most of the personnel from Liechtenburg they essentially closed down 279 00:15:53.320 --> 00:15:56.679 Lichtenberg is a women's camp and transported all of the 280 00:15:56.679 --> 00:15:59.720 guards and then a lot of the prisoners up to Robinsbrook. 281 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:04.759 By this point, Maria was one of the more experienced guards, 282 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.679 and she had gotten a lot of responsibility because she 283 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:10.799 was so willing to take those next steps into brutality. 284 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:12.960 So she would be in charge of beatings and things 285 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:16.039 like that at Rischenberg. So when she got to Robinsbrooke, 286 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:20.720 she was immediately one of the higher ranking overseers. She 287 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:23.679 wasn't yet the highest ranking, but she certainly got a 288 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:27.320 lot of responsibility right out of the gates, and like 289 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.559 all those women, began to oversee work details and again 290 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:32.720 climb her ladder again at that camp. 291 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:36.480 You talk about that even though they were. She wasn't 292 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:41.480 officially in the SS. She had these responsibilities foisted on 293 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:45.639 her which she ascribed to, which she volunteered for, but 294 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:50.000 she was still a subordinate of the SS men, wasn't she. 295 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:52.440 Yes, the function of the women in the camps was 296 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.840 a little different. They weren't considered full blown SS. They 297 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:00.679 were considered the SS women's auxiliary, So they were like 298 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.279 an auxiliary to the SS. So you know, they couldn't 299 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:07.599 have like the military ranks like people of the SS had, 300 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.319 but within their own purview within a women's camp, they 301 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.519 certainly were responsible for the disciplining of the prisoners, the 302 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.400 running of the camp. So in most aspects they were 303 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:21.359 doing what the men did. They just didn't get sort 304 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:25.960 of that official designation. So the other's women function is 305 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.000 like an SS a auxiliary. I guess it's the best way 306 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:30.759 to put it. In these camps. 307 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:34.279 You say, by September one, nineteen thirty nine, when the 308 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.799 Third Reich invaded Poland and the Second World War began, 309 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:42.960 the work routines and procedures at Revensbrook were well established. 310 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:46.160 And you say that in January fourth, nineteen forty Heinrich 311 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.640 Himmler came to inspect the camp. Tell us about that 312 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:53.960 a little as you write this inspection by this elite 313 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:54.880 SS official. 314 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.000 Yeah, that was a really big day for the overseers 315 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:01.960 in the camp. It was a bitterly cold winter day. 316 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:06.160 It's we have some photographs that exist from that visit, 317 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:08.680 like you can see them through the Robinsburg Archive and 318 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:13.200 things like that. And essentially he came to inspect the 319 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:15.400 women guards. So there's this one photo of them all 320 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:17.640 lined up in this row, in a double row, and 321 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:20.279 then he's sort of striding in front of them, you know, 322 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.039 sort of inspecting the ranks. And then he had a 323 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:26.240 series of meetings during the day with different personnel to 324 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.200 sort of strategize about different policies in the camp. Maria's 325 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:34.319 immediate supervisor was a woman named Johanna Longenfeldt, and so 326 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.440 she's also seen in this picture sort of walking subserviently 327 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.160 behind him because of course she was female. But that 328 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:43.119 was sort of a very big event for all of 329 00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:46.119 the female overseers that he had come to this camp 330 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:49.680 and was sort of establishing the camp as this really 331 00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:53.279 important entity, I guess in the camp system, so that 332 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.319 those pictures are really pretty extraordinary. If you can find 333 00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:59.119 them online. They're very easy to find, so anyway, it's 334 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:00.000 worth taking a look. 335 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:04.200 You talk about people that were comprised and the transport 336 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:09.039 of new prisoners, and the early capacity of this or 337 00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:12.759 the early population of the camp, and then the soon 338 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:15.240 rising population of that camp. 339 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:19.240 Yes, I mean the camp exponentially got bigger. At first, 340 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:23.200 when Maria first got there, the population was still under control, 341 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:27.119 the barracks were new, they planted flowers, they had a 342 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:30.079 little zoo. I mean, it was sort of crazy. And then, 343 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:33.440 of course, as more and more women were arrested through 344 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:38.000 the war through political dissension for whatever reason and sent 345 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.680 to the camp, things got crowded and more and more crowded, 346 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:45.720 conditions got worse and worse and worse, And during the 347 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:47.880 couple of years that Maria worked in that camp, the 348 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:53.119 population increased exponentially five or six times, and so then 349 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:56.599 by the end it was just horrible conditions of extreme overcrowding, 350 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:01.480 difficult sanitation, insufficient food, and again all of those conditions 351 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:04.359 that we're familiar with when we study the camps became 352 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:07.000 very apparent over her tenure there. 353 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:10.279 You talk about some of the punishments that were enacted 354 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:14.039 whipping table. Some of the weapons that they were given 355 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.079 the guards were canes. They each had pistols, They had 356 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.400 big high boots that they could use to kick and 357 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:27.440 beat these prisoners. This was all encouraged, as by witness accounts. 358 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:32.839 Oh absolutely were considered necessary things to keep order. Most 359 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:35.359 of the women guards also worked with dogs, so they 360 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:38.039 would have a couple of dogs that were trained to attack. 361 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.240 And again the more brutal, the better, so all the 362 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:45.759 prisoners remember just vividly these horrible punishments. A lot of 363 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:47.960 times they said one of the worst things was you 364 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.240 could be punished for anything, and eventually everything was against 365 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:53.799 the rules, so you would just accept that you would 366 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:57.000 have a risk of being attacked at any time. There 367 00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.359 was a large building called the Bunker, which became a 368 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:03.559 kind of cell block where they sent prisoners for extra special, 369 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:07.759 extra harsh punishments, and Mandel was eventually appointed as sort 370 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:10.079 of co overseer of the whole bunker, so that was 371 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.519 like a big promotion for her, and that's some of 372 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:16.519 the most brutal stories of punishments come out of her 373 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:20.440 time in the bunker, as well as just overseeing things 374 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:23.640 like roll calls, which were a complete nightmare for the women. 375 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:26.079 They'd have to stand out there and out for hours 376 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:29.440 and freezing cold or extreme heat. You know, I think Maria, 377 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:30.960 I don't know if it had something to do with 378 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.599 her father's being a shoemaker, but she seemed obsessed with 379 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:37.880 creating problems for the women's feet, Like there was this 380 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.359 really sharp kind of stone roadway, and so she would 381 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.160 force the women to be in their bare feet and 382 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:45.519 sort of march over and over these stones. To their 383 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.680 feet were bleeding and infected, and even in winter, they 384 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:51.759 weren't allowed to have shoes or any kind of protection, 385 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.559 and so you can imagine the horrible injuries, many of 386 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:59.039 which resulted in death. So the brutalities and the conditions 387 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.279 that the prisoners endoor were really almost beyond description. 388 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.920 You say that Maria became known as the Mistress of 389 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.599 life and death and nicknamed the Tigris. You also talk 390 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:13.720 about that it seemed to be a sexual element to 391 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:17.920 the punishments that Maria inflicted on these prisoners, also that 392 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.160 prisoners were also used for as prostitutes for German soldiers 393 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:25.400 as well. Tell us about some of this seemingly sexual 394 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:27.359 deviancy on Maria's. 395 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:29.440 Park well in her case, I think it was more 396 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:33.400 about power than about sexuality, Like for example, sometimes she 397 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:35.920 would order if a woman was being beaten in front 398 00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:38.039 of the whole camper whip, that she would be stripped 399 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:40.920 so she would be naked when that happened, and there 400 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:44.880 was another guard there, Dorotea Binns, who definitely had more 401 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:48.440