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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Stephanie Wilder Taylor. Welcome to Drunkish, my

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podcast about sobriety. I love to hear other people's stories

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and share experiences, and today is no exception. I have

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an amazing guest. Her name is Anna David. She's a

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New York Times best selling author of eight books. She's

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the founder of Legacy Launchpad, which writes and publishes books

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for entrepreneurs. She also hosts Behind the Book Cover podcast,

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and she's the co host of Sober Living podcast. She's

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just a sober rock star. You guys, what can I say?

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Here she is and here we are with Anna David.

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I'm really excited to talk to you.

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Speaker 2: I'm super excited to talk to you always.

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Speaker 1: Can I remind you of I feel like this came

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up when we first met, and it's all going to

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come back around when we talk about your story. But

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many years ago, you were an editor. You know where

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I'm going with this.

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Speaker 3: I know where you're going, Like, yes, I don't even

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know if you know the full story, but you tell

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from your POV.

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Speaker 1: Well you eventually told me the full story. But what

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happened is I wrote an article for a website called

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The Fix I don't see. I didn't know you or

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the person who owned the website at the time. I

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was just tasked with writing, like my story. I wrote

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an article, it got rewritten, It got very rewritten in

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a way that was not even my I've never had

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something so changed out of my voice. Wasn't run by me,

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it was just changed. It was given a very salacious title.

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It made me sound like a mom that should get arrested.

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And then it was published that way, and I was

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really upset.

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Speaker 2: With also a photo of you and your adorable children,

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like it didn't go but I wouldn't as a mother,

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I would not want that. Remember, it was just they

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were so cute, and it was like against the headline,

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so here totally on your side, keep going Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it was something like wasted, like something about being

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like a wasted mom or something, and I was like,

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I had just recently, I believe, talked about the fact

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that I'd driven drunk with my kids, and it was

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very new and kind of raw to be saying that,

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not out loud, but in print, and I just felt

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like I was very exploited, and I asked for it

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to be changed, and I found myself in a back

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and forth with you, and I believe you were apologizing

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and you were like, oh my god, I totally get it.

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It's not I didn't do it.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, the backstory was the person who owned the

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website was not sober and in fact, was intoxicated all

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the time and had access to the website, and every

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night we go in and drunkenly rewrite these stories about

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sobriety and me and the other editors and I but

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I was the top editor, which is tried to wake

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up earlier to change it back before anybody saw it. However,

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this drunk person was also a very angry, controlling person,

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and if he discovered that we did that, the tirade

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never ended. And so that was one where he was

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I think I changed it, and then you're mad, as

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you should be, and he's enraged at me for changing it,

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and it was like, it's just when I think back

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on those days when I worked for people like that,

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I can't quite believe it.

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Speaker 2: But yes, it was awful.

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Speaker 3: It was awful, and it was you were not the

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only person that I had to do that with.

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Speaker 1: You know, working for other people sucks.

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Speaker 2: It sure does. I was just talking to somebody about this.

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I only have had one non abusive boss, and it

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was my first boss. So I was twenty one to

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twenty four, so I had no idea that, like that

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was not normal to have someone who really nurtures you

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and cares about you. I mean I had phones thrown

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at me, I had all the me too stuff. I'm like,

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that's nothing compared to what I experienced. Tough enough kids, Seriously, so.

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Speaker 1: Listen, you are one of the most accomplished sober people.

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You've been sober a long time. Now how many years exactly?

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Speaker 3: Guess what in from the day of recording. I can't

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do math in like thirteen days, it'll be twenty five years.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing.

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Speaker 2: Crazy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm sixteen years sober so and you're way

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younger than I am. So you got you got sober young?

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I mean no, I was thirty, okay, so I'm holding you.

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I believe I'm older than No, you're definitely you're still

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younger than me.

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Speaker 2: I were very much contemporaries. Let's just say, well, you

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look amazing, so do you.

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Speaker 3: I got scared for the not aging club, right, So yeah,

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I got sober at thirty, which feels like a good

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age to do it, and I'm fifty five, and so yeah,

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twenty five years and back when I got sober, you know,

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when I was poking around in the late nineties, there

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was nothing online you couldn't find, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, sober influencers, you know, sober websites. None of this existed.

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What existed was Charlie Sheen went to promises. That's like

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all you could find.

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Speaker 3: And then now and again you could find like a

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meeting address, and so oh I just killed a mosquito,

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and so no, I didn't, and.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I very distracted by.

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Speaker 3: Don't squito that I'm not killing. I, of course, with

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all my wonderful values, said well, I want to go

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where Charlie Sheen went, because obviously there's pools, there's messusus,

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there's probably someone famous who I could date. And so

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back writing Horsepi, I was like whatever on the horseback,

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writing weirdly, I went back writing last week. By the way, Yeah,

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the equine therapy, probably acupuncture, but mostly I was interested

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in the celebrity boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: You know that you could come out of rehab with one.

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Speaker 3: And I so I google promises, and I find prom

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and I call Promises and I actually had a job

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at the time, which was totally insane.

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Speaker 2: I was running a website because this.

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Speaker 3: Was this was early two thousand, so it was pre

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Nazac crash, when everybody was just like throwing so much

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money at websites that you could hire a completely drug

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addicted girl to run your website and pay her and

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nobody would even notice that.

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Speaker 2: It was all chaos.

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Speaker 3: And so I call and I say I'd like to

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do outpatient rehab here, and they're like, we know, do that.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know what I said to them.

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Speaker 3: I think I said something like, look, I don't think

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i'll stay sober if I don't have my job, because.

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Speaker 2: It's the only thing that gives me any esteem. So

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if you let me show up every day after work,

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I promise I will stick with this. And I don't know.

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Speaker 3: They said yes, and they were like it's only you know,

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it was like one thousand dollars a month, and I'm like, ooh,

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this promise. This is a really good deal. So I

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show up the following week, which was May second of

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two thousand. I'm looking around, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Like, where are the where the movie started? Like where's cool?

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Speaker 3: Like why is there just a broken basketball, and now

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where's the tennis courts? And someone goes, oh, you realize

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there are two promises, right, There's the fancy one in

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Malibu and there's this one. And then later that one

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got much nicer, and I actually think it's now gone.

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But it was not nice in two thousand.

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Speaker 1: So did you change your mind right away or were you.

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Speaker 2: Like, oh no.

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Speaker 3: I was like, you know, I'd surrendered. So I was

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just like, okay, show me where to go, show me

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what to do.

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Speaker 2: And I went and sat in the in the group

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therapy room, and it was really dingy and gross, and

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everybody seemed way too happy, and there were people joking

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about their suicide attempts, and I went up and explained

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to them that that was not at all funny and

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that they should stop joking about very unfunny things. They

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just looked at me and they were like, oh okay.

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And then and then, the way I remember it, it

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was a very long time ago, but the way I

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remember it now, that first group I was like fuck this,

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and by the second one and I was just like,

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oh my god, this is medicine for my soul. I

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kind of would hear.

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Speaker 3: People talking about these solutions to problems I didn't know

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I had.

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Speaker 2: I thought I just was really fun, and then I'm hearing, oh,

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you're not not comfortable in my own skin, and I

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live with a hundred forms of fear and all of

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these things, and I just like saved my life and

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the simple Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's really revelatory to find out that all these thoughts

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you have and all this shame you have is shared

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by tons of other people, right from all walks of life.

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There's something I've written about this many many times, but

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that feeling of me too is like its own drug.

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I don't know if I could have gotten sober another way.

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I know a lot of people do. A lot of

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people get sober a lot of different ways. Now that's respect,

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but you know, and there were a lot of reasons

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I didn't want to go to a twelve step meeting.

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I just thought it was really cheesy. I didn't want

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anything to do with any of the slogans. I'm not

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religious still am not religious, and not even really that spiritual,

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to be totally honest, I don't know. I'm agnostic. So

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there were a lot of things I felt working against

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that kind of recovery. For me, my thing was I

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just didn't have a better idea. I couldn't afford to

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go to rehab. I had three young kids, so I

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was like, well, this is what's available to me. And

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I know for sure I've made a million promises that

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I'm not going to drink anymore, and I always break it.

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So I got to try something. But it was definitely

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as they refer to it, last house on the block,

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oh last stop. You know, had to be a little desperate,

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and from day one of me actually being there for me,

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I was like, oh, I can't believe. Yeah, I mean yeah,

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sometimes because early on, right, you're still sad and you

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still feel a lot of shame, So you are going

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to be a little bit annoyed at people laughing. Yeah

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it's not funny guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean it is true that the laughter

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is just basically saying I relate and yeah, that shared experience.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't have done it any other way.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I will say the other ways, which I'm

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speaking about mostly with ignorance, because I didn't do them

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as long as there's a community, because that's you know,

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alcoholism and addiction is such a disease of isolation, So

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to just be among your fellows, whether they're in a

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twelve step.

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Speaker 2: Room or a yoga a sober yoga retreat, or whatever

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it is. For me, I find that I don't think

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my brain works the same way that other peoples. My

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boyfriend is enore me. I see, we have different ways

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of responding to things. My responses are massive, my feelings

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are I don't think alcoholics feelings are any more extreme

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than a normal person's feelings, but I think we prioritize them.

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Speaker 3: We think I think, oh my god, you know. And

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that's and it was the feelings that caused the addiction.

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Speaker 2: For me. It was I can't handle this feeling. It

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might kill me.

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Speaker 3: I think my feelings will kill me, and so I'll

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do anything to escape it. Even if I could die.

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It's okay, better than having this feeling. And all I

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have now is a great awareness that my feelings won't

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kill me, that they'll pass.

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Speaker 2: That you know, the pause, and I.

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Speaker 3: Will say sobriety for me, no recovery for me got

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so much easier around here. Seventeen I know that's a long.

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Speaker 2: Time, but like it was a lot of chaos, and

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then seventeen to twenty five has been very smooth in

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here and externally.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit about like the

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old before the before, at least what led up to

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needing to get sober because you were a party girl.

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I was part of your first book.

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Speaker 2: The name of my first book. The book paints it

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as far more glamorous than it actually was. Basically, I

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graduated in college. I loved drinking in college, I loved

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doing drugs. And then you know, I ended up a

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few years out of college living in LA and I

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moved here in nineteen ninety six and I went to

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rehab in two thousands. So those three or four years,

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it was just a lot of like really dark depressing,

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doing drugs by myself, cats for company, lots of cigarettes,

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drinking vodka to try to come down, wanting to die.

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And I too thought this, you know, I'm not going

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to go to AA. God, you know those people they're creepy.

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Speaker 3: Even though I knew sober people in AA who I loved,

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but I was just so terrified. And then at a

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certain point it was just I kept saying that I

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was going to stop, and I would stop, and then

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I would stop.

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Speaker 2: Drugs, but I would keep drinking.

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Speaker 3: And then I stopped drinking for twelve days and never

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stop talking about it, like twelve days of like, Hi,

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like I buy a pack of cigarettes.

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Speaker 2: How are you? I'm good day three without drinking, you know,

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and the guy's like okay. And then at a certain point,

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I don't know what was different about that day, the

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day that I woke up and you know, I called

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my family and I told them I was an alcoholic

257
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and could I get their help paying for rehab? And

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the following Monday, I was in rehab, my O patient rehab.

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Speaker 1: Did your family feel like you had a problem.

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Speaker 2: Well, my family is an unusual thing, I would say,

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they don't. Really. Everybody's very self concerned, So yeah, I guess,

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but it wasn't a focus, right. But they had always

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told me I was crazy, which is why there, you know,

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the step about being restored to sanity. Didn't I hear

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people say, oh, I was so offended, And I was like, no,

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I've been told I was crazy since birth. I want

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to be restored to sanity.

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Speaker 3: So so I was very isolated and any people around

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me were also very addicty. So I didn't have that

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intervention type of experience or people noticing.

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Speaker 1: Really, I mean I didn't either. My husband didn't think

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I had a problem he I think my husband thought

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I was a problem drinker a little bit, but he

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didn't think I had alcoholism.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: He just thought, like, you just have to try harder,

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Like just when you're at a party and people keep

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refilling your glass, you just got to be aware, Like

279
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I can help you with that, Like I could let

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you know, and you know, you can imagine how well

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that worked out. Like I'd be like, I'm fine, don't

282
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tell me what to do, and you know, and it

283
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,759
would always lead to the same place. But uh, but no,

284
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I wasn't, maybe because I was by the time I

285
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got sober, I was married and had kids. You're not

286
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gonna be like out partying as much some are.

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Speaker 2: I mean, your story is so fascinating to me because

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there's really no one else like that. You become very

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well known for. So sippy cups are for shardenay? Was

290
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that the first cups are not for chardonnay.

291
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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're they're for you know, put the milk in

292
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the sippy cup, and you deserve a nice wine glass

293
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for your chardonay.

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Speaker 2: But treat yourself, mamma, really ballsy and like kind of crass.

295
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Speaker 3: I mean, there's no one else that's done that right,

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that's come out as like pro drinking or whatever you

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want to.

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Speaker 2: Call and then said, actually, you know what, stop. I mean,

299
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no one else has had that right.

300
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Speaker 1: It was not on purpose, although some people did accuse

301
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me of just trying to get publicity from my book,

302
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and I was like, this is horrible publicity.

303
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Speaker 2: I mean it's crazy.

304
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Speaker 3: I remember hearing about that and just I just think

305
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it's really brave. I mean it's funny though, because people

306
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,319
will say it's really brave to go and talk about

307
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addictionary alcoholism, and then I've heard Lena Dunham say it's

308
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not brave if it doesn't scare you. So I always

309
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,039
find very like I'm like, god, it's that brave, like whatever.

310
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So did that feel brave to you at the time?

311
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Speaker 1: It well, here's what happened. In a nutshell, I got outed.

312
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I wouldn't have done it. I don't think I wouldn't

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have been public about it. I was not looking for

314
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a publicity. But I wrote on my blog, which only

315
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had like five hundred readers at the time. It was

316
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:58,079
just a little blog, and then the New York Times

317
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:05,359
parenting blogger. Parenting writer named Lisa Belkin picked up the

318
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:10,319
story somebody told her and then she reprinted my blog

319
00:18:10,519 --> 00:18:14,000
as her column and it was kind of judgy, I

320
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,079
don't mind saying. And all of a sudden I was

321
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getting I was just minding my own business. I was

322
00:18:21,039 --> 00:18:24,039
ten days sober, and all of a sudden, I started

323
00:18:24,039 --> 00:18:29,480
getting inundated with calls for a quote like I was famous,

324
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which I really wasn't. I was just like a writer

325
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who'd had this book, And all of a sudden, shit

326
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hit the fan, and I was getting Doctor Phil was

327
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on the phone, and this person was on this person

328
00:18:41,319 --> 00:18:46,880
was calling me, and I was horrified. My publishing company

329
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,839
was like, I feel like you have to do something.

330
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And the New York Times wants to write a story

331
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and you would be writing it with them, like they

332
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would interview you. And this woman named Jan Hoffman wrote story.

333
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,759
Now at this point, I'm like four months sober, so

334
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,960
I'm I agree to do an interview. She talks to me,

335
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she talks to my husband, she talked to my brother, like,

336
00:19:11,039 --> 00:19:13,319
you know, got the whole story, and she wrote a

337
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,079
really nice, fair article. But it was on the front

338
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page of the Style section. Of the Sunday Times New

339
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:27,200
York Times, right and it and I ended the She

340
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ended it with a joke by me because I was like, yeah,

341
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so I don't drink anymore now. Vicotin on the other hand,

342
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I was totally making a joke, but people kind of

343
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lost their minds. People commented like, she shouldn't have children,

344
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somebody should take her kids away. It was pretty awful,

345
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so I think that's hence being sensitive about it years later,

346
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about being seen the wrong way, but that by then

347
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,640
the cat was out of the bag. So I was like,

348
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you know what, fuck it. I'm just going to like,

349
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if people ask me for my story, I'm going to

350
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try to help people. Now.

351
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Speaker 2: I didn't know that that is so fascinating because it's.

352
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Speaker 3: Like it's it's a you know, a nightmare for a

353
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newly sober person to have to make sense of this.

354
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Speaker 2: You know. I was just thinking that back, did you

355
00:20:16,039 --> 00:20:17,440
read the Elizabeth Gilbert book.

356
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Speaker 1: I didn't.

357
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Speaker 3: It's great, but pee, I loved it, and I didn't

358
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,680
even think that I was an Elizabeth Gilbert fan. But

359
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,359
people are like, yeah, shouldn't write a book about sobriety

360
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,799
till you're you know, at least five years sober because

361
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,720
she's just such a zellot for it, which is like whatever,

362
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:38,039
but to be thrust into that position at the same time,

363
00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:40,119
it's what every writer dreams of.

364
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 2: Oh my god, the New York Times wants to write

365
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,400
about me. So what a what a you know, conflicting, bizarre,

366
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,160
stressful situation, That's all I'm saying.

367
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 1: And looking back, it is kind of crazy because I'm

368
00:20:54,319 --> 00:20:57,960
sixteen years sober now, at nine months sober. I did

369
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:06,079
an interview for twenty twenty yeah wow with Elizabeth Vargas, right,

370
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,119
but interviewed by her mouth not yet no, but it

371
00:21:09,799 --> 00:21:14,680
was it was close. Yeah, And Mary Carr, who wrote

372
00:21:14,839 --> 00:21:18,240
Lit had like twenty years sobriety at that time, was

373
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,799
also being interviewed. We were the two right celebrity ish

374
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,000
like interviews, and I'm talking about being sober for nine

375
00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:30,359
months and I'm probably like that person going like, yeah,

376
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,359
I'm totally into it, like you know, and Mary Carr

377
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,880
was horrified by me. She was just like, how long

378
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,559
have you been sober? I'm like nine months. She's like, yeah,

379
00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:41,319
that's interesting.

380
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, But I mean you were just showing up where

381
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,039
you were asked to show up exactly.

382
00:21:46,039 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 1: I didn't know better. Yeah, I mean, but this was

383
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:50,839
why I didn't write a book about I did not

384
00:21:51,079 --> 00:21:54,039
write a book about it until I was fourteen years sober.

385
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean I know that about what was

386
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,400
it about ten fifteen years ago?

387
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,079
Speaker 2: All these people suddenly.

388
00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:06,039
Speaker 3: You know it with Instagram, I would say, like Instagram starts,

389
00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:09,880
which was right after our thing, because I remember the

390
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,920
Fix was still in business and I was still there.

391
00:22:12,039 --> 00:22:15,839
Instagram starts and people who are six seconds sober start

392
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,359
posting about like doing yoga to get sober, and they

393
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,920
become these huge, like sober influencers, and it really became

394
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,799
a part of the conversation, which has been very interesting

395
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:29,480
to watch.

396
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 1: I think it's been helpful because I feel like sobriety's

397
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,720
been mainstreamed, and that's only helpful to people that want

398
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,920
to get sober. Because when I got sober, and I

399
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:43,160
want to know your experience too, it was not cool.

400
00:22:44,039 --> 00:22:47,240
That's for sure. It was a pretty ugly word alcoholism.

401
00:22:47,599 --> 00:22:49,680
I mean, to this date, nobody wants to refer to

402
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,440
themselves that way, and I understand why. For me, I

403
00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:54,680
felt like I had to because it was very black

404
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,319
and white. For me, I was like I'm either an

405
00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,680
alcoholic or I'm not, and if I'm not, I'm probably

406
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,440
going to because I'll rationalize it. So I'd rather just go,

407
00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:06,279
like accept the idea that I just I'm not a

408
00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:08,960
person who can drink, and whatever you want to call that,

409
00:23:09,079 --> 00:23:09,599
you call it.

410
00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't think I ever thought about

411
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,680
whether it was cool or accepted or again. I mean,

412
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:21,640
I was called crazy by my family since birth, so

413
00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:25,039
I don't think calling myself an alcoholic seemed as bad,

414
00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:31,079
and so I didn't really think about it. I don't think,

415
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,519
I mean, And honestly, when I got suber, I did

416
00:23:33,599 --> 00:23:35,880
think it was super cool. I thought it was super

417
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,119
cool and so and so I didn't ever feel shame

418
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:40,720
about it.

419
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:41,839
Speaker 1: But I was.

420
00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 3: Surprised when people who didn't have a ton of experience

421
00:23:48,279 --> 00:23:51,799
with it were suddenly leading revolutions about how to get sober,

422
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,680
you know, and I think that can be dangerous.

423
00:23:56,519 --> 00:23:59,599
Speaker 1: But you've always been very public too. So your first

424
00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:04,599
book was a novel. It wasn't like a memoir, no,

425
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,160
but obviously you used your experience. Yes, but when at

426
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,920
what point did you throw yourself into like I'm going

427
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,319
to be I'm not gonna be ashamed about this. I'm

428
00:24:14,319 --> 00:24:17,039
going to talk about it. I'm gonna you know, when

429
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:19,799
I met you, you were doing storytelling shows with people

430
00:24:19,839 --> 00:24:20,960
talking about sobriety.

431
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 2: That was so fun. Yeah. I never I never made

432
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:27,880
a conscious decision.

433
00:24:28,319 --> 00:24:30,839
Speaker 3: I didn't do it till I was I didn't write

434
00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:32,440
my book till I was five years sober.

435
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 2: And I don't know if that was a conscious thing.

436
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 3: I just, you know, my thing about writing a book

437
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,039
was I knew a girl who I'd worked at magazines.

438
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,519
So a woman i'd worked with published a book and

439
00:24:45,559 --> 00:24:47,359
I saw it on someone's shelf and I said, if

440
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,119
she can do this, I can because I think I'm

441
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,519
smarter than she is. And that was my motivation to

442
00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:52,200
write a book.

443
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 2: And I had a.

444
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 3: Friend who lived in England, and she was like, I

445
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,759
want to write a book. And so we made this

446
00:24:56,839 --> 00:24:59,720
deal that we would send each other five hundred words

447
00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:03,640
ever Sunday as sort of accountability partners. And you know,

448
00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:06,079
she lived in England. I live in LA. Your word

449
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,240
means nothing. So I thought that was that. I fly

450
00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:10,440
home and she sends me her five hundred words, and

451
00:25:10,519 --> 00:25:12,799
I realized, oh my gosh, she was serious. I got

452
00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:14,920
to do this and I wrote five hundred words and

453
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,160
sent it off to her and that became Party Girl.

454
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,519
And I thought about, you know, at that point in

455
00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:22,160
my life I had when I got sober, I was

456
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,519
hired by Premier magazine at Rest in Peace to be

457
00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:28,240
their party girl columns. And I was hired to write

458
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,160
a column that was me going out to all these

459
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,920
parties and offscars and events and interviewing celebrities. And so

460
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,039
I thought it was really funny in real life that

461
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,720
I had been hired to represent this party girl right

462
00:25:40,759 --> 00:25:42,559
when I got sober, And I thought that would be

463
00:25:42,599 --> 00:25:46,400
a really funny premise for a book, but especially if

464
00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:50,119
instead of it being a column about interviewing celebrities, it

465
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,319
being a column about being a party girl and somebody

466
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,599
having to pretend to be a drunk when they were sober.

467
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: And so that was the premise for the book. I

468
00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:03,640
love that, Yeah, I mean it was.

469
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,759
Speaker 3: It's my favorite thing I've ever written. I'm working on

470
00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:10,960
the script now. It's been optioned over and over again,

471
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,960
and the people who have the option now they attached

472
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,279
a producer who gave me notes. I'm and I know,

473
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,640
you know this world like it's like I'm always like,

474
00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:21,319
I'm happy to do notes if I think it will

475
00:26:21,319 --> 00:26:24,240
make it better and if I think it's fun otherwise,

476
00:26:24,279 --> 00:26:26,119
give me notes for notes sakes.

477
00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 2: And we're done. And her notes are really good. So

478
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,880
I'm in the process of rewriting it now.

479
00:26:30,759 --> 00:26:33,599
Speaker 1: So can you tell me, like, when you got sober,

480
00:26:34,079 --> 00:26:36,680
you do the outpatient Did you do it for thirty

481
00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:37,839
days longer?

482
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? I did it for longer.

483
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 3: They like kind of it was like I said, it

484
00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:44,640
was sort of like I made up their outpatient program.

485
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,039
They kind of let me stick around and do whatever,

486
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,880
and you know, you just kind of go over for

487
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,480
alumni meetings and stuff like that.

488
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: So there was no hard stop actually.

489
00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: Because I think one of the things that's the most

490
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,160
difficult for people who are trying to get sober is

491
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,279
is staying sober. You know that that shame and that

492
00:27:04,759 --> 00:27:08,599
surrender only takes you so far. In my opinion, you

493
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,839
have to kind of keep surrendering. What would what do

494
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,440
you think is the thing that made it stick for you?

495
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 2: Well, I will say I remember sitting in that room

496
00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:23,119
and our counselor saying, there, you know, look to your right,

497
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,119
look to your left. Only one in thirty stay sober

498
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,279
and I you know, I've always kind of had this.

499
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 3: The rules don't apply to me. I was just like, cool,

500
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,440
that's going to be me. And whether that means anything

501
00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:38,440
or not, that I remember thinking that my life had

502
00:27:38,519 --> 00:27:44,720
been so sad and so small that the difference between

503
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,880
that and just being around people and having friends and

504
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,880
being employable was so radical that that it I don't

505
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,400
think it ever occurred to me that it might be better.

506
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,720
I mean, it's different when it's like you had a

507
00:27:58,759 --> 00:27:59,359
whole life.

508
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 2: I don't know why.

509
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 3: I'm from Usen, but you know, I had no ability

510
00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:07,680
to have a relationship, or have children or do any

511
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,400
of these things. And so for me, I was out

512
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:16,240
of options and pretty much without exception. I mean, yeah,

513
00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:18,960
it's never It's never occurred to me to go back

514
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,720
because my life was just so much better.

515
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: Did you continue using twelve steps? Did you stick with that? Oh?

516
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 2: Very much, very much.

517
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 3: I yeah, I have a meeting at my house in

518
00:28:36,759 --> 00:28:38,119
this room that we're in.

519
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:44,119
Speaker 2: I was listening to a four step yesterday. It is

520
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,599
almost more important today than than than I mean, no,

521
00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:53,400
it's as important because I mean a lot of it

522
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,559
is just remembering, you know, I am spiritual, you know,

523
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,319
I guess I can't describe God, but I know that

524
00:29:01,799 --> 00:29:08,839
I have experienced the craving, disappearing and experienced multiple miracles.

525
00:29:08,839 --> 00:29:10,799
I mean, I had a baby at fifty three. Granted

526
00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:12,079
it was through a surrogate.

527
00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:17,359
Speaker 3: But I have the experienced so many miracles the family.

528
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,240
I come from the fact that I survived, let alone

529
00:29:20,279 --> 00:29:24,240
get to thrive. I mean that is and so you know,

530
00:29:24,319 --> 00:29:28,119
for me, most of my happiness or peace or serenity

531
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,359
is based on remembering I'm not in charge, knowing that

532
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,759
even when I don't get something, it's for my greater good,

533
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,319
and just kind of trying to find the joy in

534
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:40,240
all of it, which I need a spiritual connection for that.

535
00:29:41,759 --> 00:29:46,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that makes sense. I think, you know,

536
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,880
it's everybody comes upon it a different way, right, And

537
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,680
I do think that a lot of people are scared

538
00:29:54,720 --> 00:30:00,200
to try that way, the twelve step way, because they're like, oh,

539
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,200
it's just going to be a bunch of like Jesus freaks.

540
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,519
And you know, there were times there are times when

541
00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:09,000
I go to a meeting and I'm like, oh, my God,

542
00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:14,200
like I don't want to hear like it's all religious.

543
00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:17,000
One of the reasons I wanted to start this podcast

544
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,240
was I was like, the thing I like the most

545
00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:21,960
about meetings is the truth is the truth and the

546
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,039
real stories from people, and those moments where I can go,

547
00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:27,119
oh my god. I felt like that, you know.

548
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I I mean, I don't know.

549
00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:37,440
I go to very specific meetings that I mean actually

550
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,160
at this point, I only go to two meetings and

551
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:44,440
they're both meetings. I started, perhaps that it's a limited experience.

552
00:30:44,759 --> 00:30:47,079
I mean, I can get annoyed by things and meetings,

553
00:30:47,119 --> 00:30:51,359
but it's usually not the God talk. But yeah, I mean,

554
00:30:51,599 --> 00:30:55,000
what people should know is that every single one of

555
00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:57,720
us said, God, no, I don't want to be around

556
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,240
those Jesus freaks who are creepy and hold hands and

557
00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:04,359
say prayers, and only did it because we had no

558
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,759
other option. So it's a perfectly not just acceptable way

559
00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:13,000
to feel, put an normal way to feel, and just

560
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,559
it's nothing like what you think it is.

561
00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out how to help people try

562
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,279
sobriety that aren't desperate, because in my experience, we always

563
00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:29,920
say we wish you desperation, because there's just no way

564
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,160
I would have stayed sober if I hadn't felt so

565
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,319
bad the day that I was like, I can never

566
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,200
drink again. If I hadn't felt that low, I don't

567
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,759
know that I would have just been like for me,

568
00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:44,480
it was always like I want to be sober a

569
00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:46,799
little bit more than I want to drink, and I

570
00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:49,160
still wanted to drink. It was not any kind of

571
00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:53,960
immediate like, oh it's completely lifted. I was like this,

572
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,480
it was a way to release the pressure for me.

573
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,039
I mean, drinking, taking xanax, you know, zoning out on

574
00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:03,480
my phone a thing I still do, like I would have.

575
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,559
I wanted that. I wanted to be checked out and

576
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,680
so like for people that are like I really like

577
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:13,279
checking out, but you know, I'd like to try sobriety,

578
00:32:13,359 --> 00:32:14,279
Like how do they do it?

579
00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 3: Yeah?

580
00:32:16,119 --> 00:32:20,279
Speaker 2: I mean I've always been so grateful that my end

581
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,079
was me with cocaine alone for days at a time,

582
00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:25,519
because there's no way I can say to myself, oh,

583
00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:28,440
it's just casual, Like there was nothing casual about it.

584
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,720
And I'm quite impressed with the people.

585
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,759
Speaker 3: I know with high bottoms who stick with it, because

586
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,400
I still cannot forget how bad it was for me.

587
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,119
Speaker 2: So I don't know, I don't know how you stop.

588
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,519
Speaker 3: Anything if you're not desperate, because what do they say,

589
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,319
It's there's only one thing more painful.

590
00:32:50,359 --> 00:32:51,359
Speaker 2: I'm screwing it up.

591
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 3: Change is one of the more painful things, and you'll

592
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,160
only do it if not changing is more painful.

593
00:32:57,559 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: Yes, So so how do you do that? I will power?

594
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:03,279
I guess I don't have any of that.

595
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: I don't either, Yeah. None. I love a shortcut. I

596
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,000
like to I like immediate. I like to feel better

597
00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:11,480
right away.

598
00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the zoning out I mean, and of course,

599
00:33:16,119 --> 00:33:17,839
you know, zoning out on the phone. I have a

600
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,519
timer on my Instagram. I'm allowed on for five minutes

601
00:33:20,519 --> 00:33:25,480
at a time. Unfortunately, I just just discovered threads. I

602
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,720
think you're big over there, right, No, no, but I

603
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:29,359
do like it.

604
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: RANDS is interesting because in your brain it's very hard

605
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,440
to justify Instagram. It's just very hard to say this

606
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:39,720
is good for me. The RADS has all these like

607
00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:43,319
use chat GBT to optimize your life. These are one

608
00:33:43,359 --> 00:33:45,519
hundred prompts and they're really helping me. And so it

609
00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:50,079
doesn't feel like I'm doing anything wrong. And it may

610
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:54,559
not be TBD, but but yeah, I mean whatever, zoning

611
00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:58,039
out feels good. And in some ways there's nothing wrong

612
00:33:58,079 --> 00:34:00,920
with it, but this reminds me of something. See, what

613
00:34:01,039 --> 00:34:03,839
you don't know is how often I thought of you

614
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,799
in my child's first year. And I bet so many

615
00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:11,360
moms with this baby on board. I kept thinking that

616
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,960
because I don't know how this connects to wind his

617
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,440
own out, but I think it really does.

618
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: Oh, motherhood is the first year is impossible.

619
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 2: And people don't tell you. And I was like, you know,

620
00:34:22,119 --> 00:34:24,559
Stephanie told us. She told us.

621
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:25,639
Speaker 1: I tried to warn you.

622
00:34:26,599 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 3: That's not super super brave too, because even however, many

623
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,679
years later, when I became a mom, it was not

624
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,280
appropriate to say you were bored.

625
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 2: It was just not And when you are fifty three

626
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,960
and you have a child, you have thirty years of

627
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,280
your judgments about other mothers that you then watch yourself do.

628
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:48,519
I mean it is it is.

629
00:34:48,519 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 3: Crazy and oh, I was so bored, and you don't

630
00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:56,039
know that it's going to change, so then you're depressed.

631
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,079
He's I mean, and it's terrible toos and it's a

632
00:35:00,639 --> 00:35:03,079
trillion times better because he's so entertaining.

633
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,119
Speaker 2: But I didn't want to say out loud how bored

634
00:35:06,159 --> 00:35:06,559
I was.

635
00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:09,119
Speaker 1: There's a lot of things you don't want to say.

636
00:35:09,159 --> 00:35:14,079
Out loud when you're a new mom, because just similar

637
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:19,159
to struggling with addiction, it feels like nobody will understand,

638
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,199
and it feels like if you said the dark thoughts

639
00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:24,719
that are in your head, people would just go oh

640
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:26,119
backway slowly.

641
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:27,199
Speaker 2: Yeah.

642
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is very similar. And honestly, I felt like

643
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,960
I was back to being a newcomer when my son

644
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:38,199
was born because I didn't understand. I didn't understand that

645
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,719
motherhood was nobody really talked about with. The painful part

646
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,360
is you're giving birth to a new you. Whether that

647
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,840
means you're not like the sexy young thing anymore, whether

648
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,360
that means you have to accept the fact that you

649
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,400
know how your mother treated you anyway, Sorry, this is

650
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,760
not for this podcast, but you can see how it is.

651
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: Yes and no, it's all relevant.

652
00:35:58,199 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: But it brought me back to feeling like an comer again,

653
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,480
and it was really painful.

654
00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 1: Because you're you're, you have a lot of feelings and

655
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,039
there's nowhere for them really to go.

656
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

657
00:36:09,039 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: I mean, and I'm assuming that a lot of your

658
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,480
friends were past the new baby stage.

659
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 2: This crazy thing is that I had a bunch of

660
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,679
friends who older moms, like a bunch meaning three, which

661
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,599
is crazy because it thank God for them. They really

662
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:27,800
did get me through the first year.

663
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: Were you so grateful that you had been sober for

664
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,320
a long time before having a kid?

665
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I still am. I am.

666
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 3: I mean it's funny though, because I would think of

667
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,119
you and a couple other you know, and other people

668
00:36:42,159 --> 00:36:44,199
now who have talked about drinking in early and I

669
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,519
was like, you know, in the early motherhood, and I'm like, whoa,

670
00:36:47,559 --> 00:36:48,039
I get it.

671
00:36:48,079 --> 00:36:50,199
Speaker 2: I didn't want a drink, but I got it because

672
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:51,159
it was so boring.

673
00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:57,679
Speaker 4: But but I mostly it's you know, I come from

674
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,800
such intergenerational rama that was like inflicted on this and

675
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,440
then the next generation in the next generation, and I

676
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:05,440
don't think it could have.

677
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,199
Speaker 2: Ever stopped had I not you know, waited.

678
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 3: You know, I think every day of meditation over the

679
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,559
past twenty five years, mostly the trauma therapy I did

680
00:37:15,639 --> 00:37:19,719
AMTR those thousands of twelve step meetings, Like that's what

681
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,079
makes me able to not do to my kid what

682
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:22,760
was done to me.

683
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 1: Do you think did you start doing the AMDR at

684
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,679
the beginning of sobriety or way later?

685
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 2: That was what I did in twenty seventeen, And so

686
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,719
when I say, like life got a lot easier than

687
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,519
Everything changed radically after I did AMTR radically. Have you

688
00:37:41,559 --> 00:37:42,119
ever done it?

689
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,079
Speaker 1: I did it like one one session years ago, and

690
00:37:47,119 --> 00:37:48,800
it didn't do that much for me, But I didn't

691
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:49,400
stick with it.

692
00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:51,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I probably I have no idea.

693
00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 3: I've done it hundreds of times. Yeah, it's not like

694
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:01,400
a one session situation. But yeah, there was something about

695
00:38:01,559 --> 00:38:06,639
doing that, and you know it basically I don't understand

696
00:38:06,639 --> 00:38:08,719
it in the same way I don't. I can't explain God.

697
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:15,239
Somehow AMDR takes these like brain synapses, disconnect the way

698
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,599
it was connected, plugs it in somewhere else, and suddenly

699
00:38:18,639 --> 00:38:20,800
you see yourself in a new way. That's that's how

700
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,239
I experienced it. And the difference between how I saw

701
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,079
myself before AMDR and after was just radical. And as

702
00:38:29,119 --> 00:38:33,199
a result of seeing myself differently, I made different choices.

703
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,079
I surrounded myself with different people. I went from really

704
00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:40,320
being you know, I had a good life, but I

705
00:38:40,519 --> 00:38:43,119
was single, dating the wrong guys, broke.

706
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,599
Speaker 2: My friends were all in the same situation too. You know.

707
00:38:48,199 --> 00:38:50,920
I do AMDR for a couple of years and I

708
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,000
start this really successful business. I buy a house, I

709
00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:59,960
need a guy. We have a kid, and and I know,

710
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:00,920
oh it's because of that.

711
00:39:01,639 --> 00:39:04,639
Speaker 3: You know, it really had to do with taking what

712
00:39:04,679 --> 00:39:07,440
I had always been told I was and rewriting that

713
00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:09,159
and kind of and I don't mean this in a

714
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,000
self aggrandizing way, like seeing myself is like the magnificent

715
00:39:12,079 --> 00:39:15,599
creature I am, and making choices from that point of

716
00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:17,440
view rather than the point of view of whom my

717
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:18,559
parents had told me I was.

718
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,679
Speaker 1: And to ask you this and you can you can

719
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,079
not talk about it if you don't want. But did

720
00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:28,840
it change? Do you have a relationship with your parents?

721
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? My mom was visited, which was fun. They meanwhile,

722
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,719
they're both alive. They meanwhile, they are the product of

723
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,039
their environments.

724
00:39:44,119 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 3: And I do the best I can and what I've learned,

725
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,199
and especially after my mom's recent visit, you know, I

726
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,920
just learned that if I just don't react, they're going

727
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,000
to do what they do and they don't have that

728
00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:02,360
power over me anymore. So I can just kind of

729
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,000
look at them as just like like troubled people.

730
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,559
Speaker 1: You know, are you a proponent of mel Robbins let them?

731
00:40:10,639 --> 00:40:13,639
Speaker 2: I guess I'm not a proponent of self help, So

732
00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:15,679
I think she seems super cool.

733
00:40:16,519 --> 00:40:22,039
Speaker 1: But well the glasses alone, right, those those black cool

734
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,400
glasses are cool. She's taking those cool.

735
00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 2: Nice person.

736
00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 3: I know that people get very you know all of

737
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,679
those say. Look, I haven't read it, but I just

738
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,320
feel like all of these things like are kind of obvious.

739
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,679
But then somebody says it and they got great marketing,

740
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,840
and good, let's let people get this message.

741
00:40:42,559 --> 00:40:45,199
Speaker 2: But so, yeah, just let them. Sure isn't that the

742
00:40:45,199 --> 00:40:47,440
same thing as just sort of surrendering.

743
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, working on your codependence? Sure, yeah, not trying to

744
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,360
micromanage people. Yeah, I guess so.

745
00:40:55,119 --> 00:40:59,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it sure seems good. I find in

746
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,199
this same way that I don't think you can go

747
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,840
to a retreat and do ayahuasca and come back with

748
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:05,840
your trauma healed.

749
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: I don't think it's like you just make a decision

750
00:41:09,119 --> 00:41:10,840
to let people do things.

751
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 2: Everything. For me, everything has required so much work, so

752
00:41:15,039 --> 00:41:20,079
many meetings, so much meditation, so many trauma therapists.

753
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 1: Because if it was.

754
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 3: That easy, we would just all decide to be sober,

755
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:26,800
and we would all just decide to you know, that's

756
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:32,199
not my experience. Nothing I've ever had came easily, and

757
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,559
it requires day and day out commitment to work.

758
00:41:37,159 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you ever find yourself ever tempted to drink

759
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,679
or do drugs? Or do you ever have those moments?

760
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 2: I have, It's been a long time.

761
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,599
Speaker 3: The two times that I remember early on were when

762
00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:54,119
I was traveling and I was around people who were

763
00:41:54,559 --> 00:41:59,000
not alcoholics, but heavy drinkers or users, and I was

764
00:41:59,159 --> 00:42:02,119
very bored. And once I was in New Zealand and

765
00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:04,480
once I was in Indonesia, and both times I felt

766
00:42:04,559 --> 00:42:08,239
very isolated and very bored, and I was like, wow,

767
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,679
I want to drink. When I was in Indonesia, I

768
00:42:10,679 --> 00:42:14,119
had already become this person who talks publicly about sobriety.

769
00:42:14,159 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 2: Oh.

770
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 3: I think I was working at a fix actually, and

771
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,719
so I very consciously said, whoa, if you do this,

772
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,079
you're going to lose your livelihood. So I think that's

773
00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:27,559
what stopped me. Since then, you know, it's I guess

774
00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:28,280
fifteen years.

775
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,079
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean,

776
00:42:32,159 --> 00:42:33,840
like I said, when I was in early sobriety, I

777
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,760
would think of you. I mean, when I was in

778
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,440
early motherhood, I would think of you. And I didn't

779
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,320
want to drink, but I understood why people did a

780
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,480
lot of the time. I don't even understand why people

781
00:42:43,519 --> 00:42:45,199
do it. It just doesn't look good.

782
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:53,159
Speaker 1: Right, It really doesn't. Early sobriety though, I did feel

783
00:42:53,159 --> 00:42:56,400
like I was missing out a lot, you know, and

784
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,280
I had a lot of anger about like why, like

785
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,559
why can't I drink like other people? It's at the

786
00:43:02,639 --> 00:43:06,360
beginning it felt like, Wow, everybody else can make this work,

787
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,559
but something is defective in me that when I drink,

788
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:12,559
I just don't have an off switch. And I was

789
00:43:12,599 --> 00:43:15,360
so mad about that all I was really mad. I

790
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,519
was like, I, of all people I really need to drink,

791
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,280
Like this is so unfair. They don't even seem to

792
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,039
like it as much as I do, and I'm the

793
00:43:25,079 --> 00:43:28,039
one who can't seem to make it. Why And I

794
00:43:28,079 --> 00:43:30,280
was like I would get these little thoughts of like

795
00:43:30,559 --> 00:43:34,599
maybe like with a little more practice or what. But

796
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,119
it's funny that you just brought up what you brought up,

797
00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:41,760
because since I was public pretty much right away, I

798
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:47,840
was like, somebody's gonna even if I don't get caught

799
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,760
all no, and then all feel like a huge fraud.

800
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:52,800
It gave me some accountability.

801
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I remember remember obviously intervention when I was

802
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,599
in early Sobriety. That was my favorite show. And I

803
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:00,519
remember them talking.

804
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:04,679
Speaker 3: About how people they'd walk through airports and somebody would

805
00:44:04,679 --> 00:44:05,639
be like, are you still sober?

806
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:10,639
Speaker 2: So the show helped them have accountability. But yeah, I.

807
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 3: You know, I have not It's not been about wanting

808
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,239
to drink. But I have had very challenging points. Like

809
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,280
I said, my last one was when Benny was born.

810
00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:27,000
I'd never been so depressed. During the pandemic early pandemic,

811
00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:31,880
I was really really depressed and and you know, and

812
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,920
I had super dark times. You know, I moved to

813
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,559
New York in two thousand and seven and was there

814
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,760
and you know, I just was looking back, I have

815
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,400
so much compassion for just this this just wounded person

816
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,960
who was just like kind of flinging herself around the

817
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,199
world trying to trying to find peace.

818
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: You know.

819
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, as corny as it sounds, were kind

820
00:44:59,519 --> 00:45:03,159
of miracle, you know, totally a lot of people try

821
00:45:03,199 --> 00:45:06,000
this thing and it doesn't stick, and you know what,

822
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,679
God bless them. But I will say that after all

823
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,679
these years, when I see somebody like at the grocery

824
00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:16,719
store first thing in the morning, buying a bottle of vodka,

825
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:21,880
I just like my heart hurts, and I just think

826
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,199
there's so many people that are suffering with this and

827
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,320
can't get it, you know. And then I just feel

828
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,719
profoundly grateful that, which is the opposite of how I

829
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,920
first felt, you know, which was like why can't I?

830
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,239
And now I'm so grateful that, like, oh I don't

831
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:39,559
have to.

832
00:45:41,519 --> 00:45:45,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean it feels so far away from

833
00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:45,679
me now.

834
00:45:46,119 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 2: It feels like I'm you know, talking about a different person.

835
00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:54,360
It's hard to believe that's the same person. But but

836
00:45:54,639 --> 00:45:57,360
and of course, once it's part of your day to

837
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,639
day life, it's easy to forget if all your friends

838
00:46:01,639 --> 00:46:04,360
are sober and you're not hanging out with newcomers, and

839
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,639
you know, it's sort of is like it just doesn't

840
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,639
feel it doesn't even feel like it was me, which

841
00:46:10,679 --> 00:46:14,239
is why it's important for me to keep working with

842
00:46:14,679 --> 00:46:16,199
sponsees and doing all of that.

843
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,559
Speaker 1: Now, before we go, you are still in this space.

844
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,280
You just well you didn't start it, but you just

845
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,360
took over as co host for it's called Sober Living. Yes,

846
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,000
it used to be called Recovery Rocks, but you're rebranding yep,

847
00:46:36,199 --> 00:46:40,159
so it's that's on, right. Have you recorded some episodes.

848
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,039
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So Lisa Smith is one of

849
00:46:43,039 --> 00:46:47,079
my favorite people on Earth, and she and I had

850
00:46:47,119 --> 00:46:50,119
actually talked about we had actually recorded a podcast a

851
00:46:50,119 --> 00:46:52,239
few years ago. Oh my god, I just turned my

852
00:46:53,679 --> 00:46:54,280
shredder on.

853
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: Sorry, we have a good directional mic because I can't

854
00:46:59,039 --> 00:46:59,360
hear it.

855
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 2: Oh my god. It was the loudest thing ever.

856
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,039
Speaker 3: So Lisa Smith and I had recorded a podcast a

857
00:47:06,079 --> 00:47:07,920
few years ago that we never released because we just

858
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,239
couldn't figure out what it was. And so she just

859
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,159
basically calls me out of the blue and says, hey,

860
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:16,760
Tawny is leaving. I don't want to stop doing this podcast.

861
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,360
Would you ever consider co hosting? And feel free to

862
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,519
say no? And I was so honored.

863
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 2: Oh here's the crazy part about it.

864
00:47:24,119 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 3: So I had kind of the podcast bug had been

865
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,000
getting me back because I had retired my recovery podcast,

866
00:47:31,559 --> 00:47:33,239
retired my book publishing podcast.

867
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 2: And I had a friend, a newly sober, got gay guy, and.

868
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,559
Speaker 3: We decided let's do a podcast because he and I

869
00:47:39,559 --> 00:47:43,679
have really Larry Spanter, and we went and recorded fifteen episodes,

870
00:47:44,599 --> 00:47:48,960
and he was very like, didn't like the episodes, didn't

871
00:47:49,039 --> 00:47:51,039
like the art, didn't like the theme, song, and it

872
00:47:51,079 --> 00:47:53,760
was very you know, push and Paul and I kept

873
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:55,639
having to pay for the studios and all this stuff,

874
00:47:55,679 --> 00:47:59,800
and I finally had had it and I literally said

875
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,880
to the universe, can I just be like him? Just

876
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,039
be able to show up and do the podcast and

877
00:48:06,039 --> 00:48:07,480
not have to pay all the money and do all

878
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,440
the arranging. And I am not kidding. Lisa called me

879
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,800
the next day and set, do you want to do

880
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,039
this manifest Madam?

881
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what. I don't know how. I just

882
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,639
do that in there? So what else? You also have

883
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,519
a very successful business where in case somebody has a

884
00:48:23,559 --> 00:48:28,079
book idea, they have a business that they want to

885
00:48:28,519 --> 00:48:31,400
have help branding, I'm speaking for you can tell us

886
00:48:31,519 --> 00:48:33,000
what it is and how people can find you.

887
00:48:33,679 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 3: Yes, it is strictly for entrepreneurs with big businesses who

888
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,039
want to be the authority in their field. It is

889
00:48:41,159 --> 00:48:45,039
not We don't acquire books. It is not for novelists.

890
00:48:45,039 --> 00:48:47,079
It is not for someone with just a great idea.

891
00:48:47,199 --> 00:48:49,920
If you don't have a business that a book will

892
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,239
tend to one hundred times, you know ten x your business,

893
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,480
don't go with us because it's very expensive and I

894
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,719
don't like to take people that I don't think really

895
00:49:00,199 --> 00:49:02,840
by becoming the expert and getting the speaking gigs and

896
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,079
getting the big clients like I want this book to

897
00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:06,199
transform them.

898
00:49:06,679 --> 00:49:07,800
Speaker 2: So it is. It is.

899
00:49:08,079 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 3: It is more commerce than art, and it's called Legacy

900
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:18,119
Launchpad Publishing. That being said, we've probably done ten recovery memoirs. Yeah,

901
00:49:18,159 --> 00:49:22,400
because when we started, we only started because Darren Prince.

902
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,320
I don't know if you know him, but he's amazing.

903
00:49:24,679 --> 00:49:26,800
He wanted to do a recovery memoir. He came to

904
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,159
me to write it. I said I don't, well, I

905
00:49:29,159 --> 00:49:32,320
won't write anyone's book, and then he stayed on me

906
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,760
so much that I hired. I said, I'll hire a

907
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,679
friend to write it and I can edit it. And

908
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,519
that became my first client. But we did Emily Lynn

909
00:49:39,559 --> 00:49:40,400
Paulson's book.

910
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 2: We did a Woman. I'm looking up at our books, Amy.

911
00:49:43,199 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: I love Emily Lynn Paulson. She did this podcast.

912
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 3: Yes, we did Highlight Reel. We did Courtney Friel's book.

913
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:52,719
We did Alexis Haynes book.

914
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:56,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've done a bunch of We have a couple

915
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:58,119
recovery books coming out right now.

916
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 3: However, they are either people who's that recovery book will

917
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,880
really help their business or they knew it wouldn't you know.

918
00:50:06,119 --> 00:50:09,159
Speaker 2: Darren's told me he's made several million dollars as a

919
00:50:09,159 --> 00:50:14,599
result of this book. Yeah wow, in terms of spokesperson deals,

920
00:50:14,639 --> 00:50:19,280
speaking arrangements and what he said is it really blew up.

921
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,360
He's a sports manager, he's a manager of athletes and

922
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,920
he said it really blew up his business because people

923
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,039
knew his personal story and they wanted to work with him,

924
00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:32,239
and he signed David Goggins as a client. Blah blah blah.

925
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: Well, that is fantastic. Is there? Tell us where to

926
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,199
find you? Go ahead and promote yourself. So Sober Living

927
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:43,360
is the podcast, and Launchpad is the company exactly.

928
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 3: My other podcast is called Behind the Book Cover, and

929
00:50:46,519 --> 00:50:49,480
that's where I interview authors about the past, present and

930
00:50:49,559 --> 00:50:50,559
future or publishing.

931
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 2: I also have a sub stack, also called Behind the

932
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:53,639
Book Cover.

933
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,119
Speaker 3: And on All the Socialism at Annaby David.

934
00:50:58,519 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: Okay, perfect. I just want to thank you so much

935
00:51:02,039 --> 00:51:05,559
for coming on here, giving me your time, happy to

936
00:51:05,559 --> 00:51:08,320
come on your podcast, all the good stuff is so

937
00:51:08,519 --> 00:51:09,639
good seeing you again.

938
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be here again.

939
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 3: You have no idea how many moments I thought of you.

940
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks everybody for listening, and I'll see

941
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:20,039
you next week.

942
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 2: Bye. Thanks God,