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Speaker 1: Meaning a live man like this man you letting butterfly

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flapping his wing, big down in the forest, man and

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gonna cause the tree.

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Speaker 2: Fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man, nobody's seen nobody

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else you see, you know, need no man like you

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followed another story and.

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Speaker 3: You got directed like that man got black and dag

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on the panel. Man, you don't it man?

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: All right, Brad Kelly, welcome to Jay Byrdon Show.

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Speaker 3: How you doing that, great man, Thanks for having me.

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I'm really looking forward to this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on. Uh. You

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and I have been, you know, kind of swimming in

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similar waters for a while. We have a lot of

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friends in common, but you know, haven't actually sat down

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and recorded and you know, more than just kind of

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catching up. Uh, we're here to talk about your book,

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The Earth and Dark. You sent me your review copy

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of it. I really liked it, really enjoyed it. And

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you know, I read a lot for this program. I

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like to do a lot of book reviews, and there's

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a lot of books that I get sent that don't

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quite you know, make the cut, and this one it was,

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I mean, very very quickly. I was like all right,

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this is going to be a winner.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Man, obviously, you know you wrote a book, but other

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than that, you know, who are you and what do

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you do?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, well, well thanks for that. You know the

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process of it's funny, you know, you write these books

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more or less in isolation. Every once in a while

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I gets an input from somebody on part of it

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or whatever. And I had an editor to help me

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that I pay. He's a friend of mine. But I

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find that if you actually pay people, find one good

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person and pay them, it actually works a lot better.

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But so yeah, thank you, thank you for saying that.

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I hope other people enjoy the book as well. Yeah.

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My name is Brad Kelly. I'm a novelist. I got

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two novels out there. The most recent one is There

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Then Dark, just came out a couple of weeks ago.

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I also have a book that came out a few

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years ago called House of Sleep. Quite different, but I

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think equally as good, and people seem to enjoy that book.

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I also have my own podcast, mostly focused on literary

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matters called Method Madness to focused episodes on on a

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pretty decent range of books in my opinion, plus conversational

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episodes with writers and other sort of Internet personality type

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folks and and a few other little projects here and there.

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So yeah, that's that's that's basically me. I'm from the

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from the Detroit area. Originally. I got my MFA from

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the University of Texas, which gets some booze in the

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literary not not the Texas part. The the MFA part

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sometimes gets booze from from from my corner of like

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indie writers. But that's definitely an important part of sort

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of my whole pathway to getting where I'm at right

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now in terms of what I'm able to put out

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as a writer and as a as a podcaster or

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even I suppose, yeah, that's I guess me in the

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in the tiny nuts, of course, I'm also you know,

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a human being and a father and a husband and

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and have a day job and all that.

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Speaker 1: We don't care about you.

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Speaker 3: That's fair, that's fair.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, in all seriousness.

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Speaker 3: A couple of things.

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Speaker 1: One, you did an excellent episode with one of my buddies,

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Andrew Edward, obviously linked to all your stuff. I'll link

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to that one because I like Andy stuff. It's a

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good writer. But it's interesting you bring up the Detroit connection,

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because I probably could have guessed that from this book

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and right off the start. It's sort of one of

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my favorite recurring features in books, which is books that

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have a very strong sense of place. This is the

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whole reason that I actually like New Orleans despite it

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being an absolutely horrible city right by every objective standard.

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It's like, well, you read you know, you read Confederacy

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of Dunce's, you know, all the kingsmen and Walker Percy,

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and you're like, I think I like Louisiana for no

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reason at all. And obviously I'm not trying to put

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Detroit and New Orleans in the same category. I would

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never impune the Detroit. But in all seriousness, you have

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a very strong sense of that in this book, And

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so if you could, could you describe that process of

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you know, transmuting this this space, this location, you know,

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into a piece of art.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And you know, it's it's interesting because I

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don't have a lot of love for the place anymore.

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To be honest, I have a lot of love for

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people that I know here, you know, friends and family

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and that kind of stuff, but as a place, you know,

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my wife and I are actually like in the sort

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of medium term plan is to not be anywhere near

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this city anymore. But you know, I was I was born.

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If people have seen eight know about eight mile, that

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eminem movie or whatever, I was born on twenty three mile,

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So you know that's that's basically a measure of distance

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from downtown Detroit. Definitely a suburban kid, for sure. But

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I also went to Wayne State University, which is in

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midtown Detroit, and lived down there in the in the

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early two thousands, and it's a it's a place with

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kind of a crazy history. And when I was living there,

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especially in the two thousands, I mean I don't frankly,

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I don't spend hardly any time down there anymore except

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for work occasionally. But in the early two thousands, there

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was this very strange vibe in which and I felt

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this in some other places in the world that I've

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traveled to, where there was a sense that we were

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like living in the ruins of something like Detroit was

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once a great American city. I mean, it was New York, Chicago,

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a couple other la Detroit. Where these great American cities,

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it was the I don't know if wit Oregon, but

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the heart may be of the American industrial enterprise throughout

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much of the twentieth century, and then it just fell apart.

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And so there is this way you're living in sort

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of the dark, dark mirror reflection of both like what

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America could be and like what in a positive and

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negative sense, what this place could be, right and the

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hist and so so there's something somewhat intoxicating about that

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as a as a setting. And you know, when I

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graduated college, the first time I left, I moved away

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and I was gone for eleven or twelve years until

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I sort of circled my way back and I still

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had I still had a lot of friends and family here,

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and you know, I don't know a particularly interesting story.

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Sort of ran out of money and stuff elsewhere in

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the country. I was living in upstate New York, and

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I mentally came back here, figuring somebody I'd find somebody

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who would be willing to do me a favor, and

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that worked out. And ever since I came back, life

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has been amazing. Everything's been going in the direction you

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wanted to. But I then got a job when I

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came back. I have an engineering degree. I got a

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job working for a geotechnical engineering firm focused mostly on sewers,

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so I ended up spending a lot of time in

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downtown Detroit in at a lot of that time in the

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sewer systems, and a lot of that time digging holes.

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Not myself, I'm an engineer, so mostly we stand there

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with the clipboard and and like wagerfinger at people, but

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spending a lot of time like in the actual dirt

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and filth of the city and sort of I don't know,

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psychically picking up on something there. And then I started

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to get really more interested in the history of the

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place as well, and so a lot of that has

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been reading and talking to some people and digging into

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old archives and stuff like that. But in terms of

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turning it into like material here, it's there is a

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way that certain places in the city of Detroit feel,

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and I did do my best to try and convey

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that because it's a it's kind of a it's a

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it's what I imagine a haunted house feels like, but

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at a city scale is kind of is kind of

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the is kind of what the city of Detroit is

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for me so well, and.

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Speaker 1: It's it's almost interesting as well, because Detroit is sort

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of it's emblematic of like American decline right of the

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rust Bell. Yeah, and there's a famous series of photos.

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I can't remember what the artist was, but of kind

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of chronicling that, like he did a photo shoot in

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the Cadillac Hotel and there's all the it's of course,

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you know, this kind of beautiful building completely and totally decaying,

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and they're very poignant images.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: I realized that was no citations on that, but I'm

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sure you guys can find it on Google. It's not

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hard to find.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen them, I'm pretty sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's I know what you mean. It

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sort of feels like and you know, I don't pretend

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I haven't been to Detroit in fifteen years, but when

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I went there, it sort of felt like a place

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that was emptying out, you know, where it felt like, oh,

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this is we're sort of in the ruins of something.

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Both on the level of you know, you can see

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there was something here now there is not, but also

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in the sense that it feels like it feels half full,

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and you know, it kind of reminds me of if

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you've ever read Gene Wolf right, he describes a very

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similar process where you know, the population of Earth is collapsing,

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and so to get anywhere you have to walk through,

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you know, miles and miles and miles of just abandoned buildings. Yeah,

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similarly to sort of uh, you know, to and towards

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dream of electric Sheep as well. And I thought that

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was really poignant. I didn't actually know that detail about

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you working in sewers, but given the content of the book,

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I probably could have guessed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, our main character, Jim is a disgraced academic, right,

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he went through a you know, cancelation. It's sort of malicious,

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and we find him in this sort of like well

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of self pity. Obviously, you know, this is how he

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ends up, you know, working in sewers, right, doing this

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kind of low end, blue collar job. There's a really

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interesting scene where he goes to a dinner party with

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all of his old colleagues. I'm not gonna say I

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enjoyed it. It's not a pleasant scene, but it's a

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really interesting one. So can I talk a little bit

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about that, Like, what are you trying to get across

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in that interaction?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, you know, there's I've worked, you know, I

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do the work that I've done in the sewers and

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at other places. I mean, I have a I'm an

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odd I'm probably an odd person in terms of sort

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of career and where it's placed me in in my

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life and in sort of time and place where. Yeah,

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I've had an engineering degree for twenty some years now,

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and I've done engineering work here and there, and so

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that's put me in these sort of professional environments and

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meetings with people, and I've presented at you know, city

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board meetings and stuff like that. But I've also spent

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time in sewers. But you know, I've also through the

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vicissitudes of career. You know, when I first moved back

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to Michigan as a thirty something year old man, I

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was I had a job cleaning boats, scraping zebra muscles

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off of boats, and cleaning out engine rooms of boats.

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And it was funny. At one point a friend of

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mine that had gotten me this job, and he's gone

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on to do great thing since then. He's an amazing guy.

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But we had this moment. We're cleaning out an engine room,

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a big an engine room of this yacht, and we're

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making twelve dollars an hour, fifteen dollars an hour. We're

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both in our thirties. We both looked at each other.

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He's he's spent time teaching. He now teaches at a university.

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But at the we looked at each other and we said, man,

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we should have gone to college. We both cracked up

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because between the two of us we had about fifteen

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to twenty years of college with you know, with degrees.

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We both had multiple degrees at this point. It's just

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how things worked out. So I guess at that in

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that sort of scene, taking Jim from you know, this

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position within academia and s we're putting him in this

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like blue collar an environment, part of the thing was

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him sort of realizing his own incapacity to make this shift,

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or his struggle with making shift, but then also realizing

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that like all of the all of the sort of

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on the surface level sort of good intentions of academic

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types and you know, maybe people a lot of people

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who sort of play at sympathy or solidarity with like

241
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working class people and blue collar work and the stuff

242
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that actually builds the country. A lot of it is

243
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just fake. A lot of it is just sort of

244
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on the surface of it, but secretly they sort of

245
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denigrate it and think less of it and don't really

246
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respect the fact that you know, basically the bones of

247
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this country were mostly built by young men with a

248
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cigarette hanging off their lip, who you know, the types

249
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of people that Jim's interacting in with this dinner scene,

250
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,240
you know, wouldn't invite them into their house. Those are

251
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the kinds of dudes who mostly built the country. And

252
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I think that gets kind of lost in sort of

253
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the computer toucher economy that we live in, that all

254
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of this stuff requires people to do jobs that kind

255
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of suck, you know. I was, I was. I was

256
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literally out on a site today and it was four

257
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degrees out and luckily I again, I get to do

258
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the engineering thing. I get to stand there and you know,

259
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take a photo and get on the clipboard and you know,

260
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take notes and ask people questions whatever. But you know,

261
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there's guys down in waiters in the sewer drilling holes

262
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through an old pipe and you know, ground waters coming

263
00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:30,039
in on them and all this, and it's yeah, again,

264
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,679
its four degrees out, and that's the kind of stuff

265
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that makes the makes our world run. It's a lot

266
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more important than most people's computer toucher jobs. Actually, So

267
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I was trying to get to that on an emotional level,

268
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I guess I don't know if that answered.

269
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting it's an interesting scene for a

270
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couple of reasons.

271
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Speaker 3: Uh.

272
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Speaker 1: One, the relationship between your Jim and his wife and

273
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Jim and his daughter is very very well done. And

274
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you know, as someone who is it's someone who has

275
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,039
dragged my wife through a series of shall we say,

276
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abrupt career changes. It's funny you bring that up. Like, I,

277
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you know, graduated college with the sort of degree that

278
00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:15,279
people get for a you know, because a job is

279
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,039
a sure thing, right, and was working in a garment

280
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factory right, you know, on like you know, ten hour

281
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shifts starting at five every morning, and had a very

282
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simple realization like why am I doing?

283
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Speaker 3: You know what?

284
00:14:29,519 --> 00:14:31,399
Speaker 1: What did I jump all those you jump through all

285
00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:33,399
those hoops? And I think ultimately, you know, it's easy

286
00:14:33,399 --> 00:14:35,200
to say, looking back, it was a good thing for me.

287
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But you know, in that in that scene right where

288
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we sort of see Jim getting halfway pitied, right, the

289
00:14:42,919 --> 00:14:46,559
idea that you know, he has been forced to stoop

290
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right to such a level is seen as you know,

291
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,399
a very pitiable thing, and you know, the reaction or

292
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,720
the interaction between him and his wife, both before, during,

293
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,399
and after is is really interesting. So if you could,

294
00:14:59,399 --> 00:15:03,080
could you just describe a little bit of that relationship

295
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:04,679
between him and his wife.

296
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's something She's not on the page very

297
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,639
much at all. I mean, I think she really only

298
00:15:10,679 --> 00:15:13,279
shows up in I don't know, four chapters or something

299
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,720
like that. She's but it was very important to me

300
00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:20,960
that it be a significant part, a significant aspect of

301
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:26,960
his reality, and like his motivations and all of that. There's,

302
00:15:27,759 --> 00:15:31,840
you know, the one thing so me trying to figure

303
00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:36,600
out who she was. The kind of genesis of starting

304
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,759
to figure out who she was was realizing that I

305
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,519
absolutely hate the nagging wife character. I know there are

306
00:15:42,759 --> 00:15:45,559
nagging wives out there, but I hate the I hate

307
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,279
that as a as a sterile, one dimensional plot device

308
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:55,399
like character. Yeah, like like Breaking Bad to me, the

309
00:15:55,919 --> 00:15:59,200
thing I disliked the most about Breaking Bad is is

310
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,879
Walter White's and not because she does a perfectly fine

311
00:16:02,919 --> 00:16:06,000
performance or whatever, But there gets to be a point

312
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,039
if you're watching that show where she clearly is there

313
00:16:10,159 --> 00:16:14,360
as a plot foil to like provide friction for him, right,

314
00:16:15,159 --> 00:16:17,440
and it's not she doesn't have her own like reality

315
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,240
she loses her own reality. So I wanted to make

316
00:16:20,279 --> 00:16:23,519
sure that like she wasn't just a nagging wife who

317
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,879
was like causing problems for him, that he was feeling

318
00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:31,120
what I think many men have probably felt in the

319
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,000
situation where they're sort of not living up to to

320
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,240
whether it's providing or defending or whatever. They feel like

321
00:16:39,279 --> 00:16:41,399
there's they should be trying to live up to when

322
00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:43,879
they feel like they're not living up to that. And

323
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,600
I wanted that to be the pressure. Not that she

324
00:16:47,799 --> 00:16:50,159
was giving him, you know, giving him a hard time

325
00:16:50,159 --> 00:16:52,120
about it, but he was giving himself a hard time

326
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,000
about it because he wasn't living up to what he

327
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,360
wanted to be for her. I think that's closer to

328
00:16:57,399 --> 00:17:01,600
the reality for people. I know. For me, like my

329
00:17:01,679 --> 00:17:04,400
wife doesn't nag me at all, but there is a

330
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,799
little voice in my head that is doesn't want to

331
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:08,960
disappoint her, you know. And if I did disappointed, she

332
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,319
probably woudn't even say anything at least not for a while,

333
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,880
you know. But I want to be the best man

334
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,480
that I can be for her. So I was trying

335
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,359
to put Jim through that process and give her give

336
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,440
him a wife who was like a real person, but

337
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,559
also a good person, a person that you know you

338
00:17:24,559 --> 00:17:27,559
would like to a certain degree. Yeah.

339
00:17:28,279 --> 00:17:30,319
Speaker 1: Well, and again, like I think that's one of the

340
00:17:30,319 --> 00:17:33,599
things that really provided a lot of you know, emotional

341
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,799
weight to this is that looks as someone who is

342
00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:41,920
now a full time Internet person, right, for whatever that's worth. Like,

343
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,079
there were and continue to be those nights where I'm

344
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,680
sort of laying upstairs the ceiling where it's like, not

345
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,759
only what did I do? What did I do to her?

346
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,480
Like I dragged her into this and now she's stuck,

347
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,119
you know, like I don't you know, you don't have

348
00:17:57,519 --> 00:18:00,319
the normal job, right, all those sort of things, And

349
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,880
that's a you know, a minor shadow of what's you know,

350
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,440
happening in this. And I will say I thought that

351
00:18:06,519 --> 00:18:12,279
you I thought that you handled the cancelation quite well,

352
00:18:12,799 --> 00:18:15,759
because in a lesser book, that would be the point

353
00:18:15,759 --> 00:18:18,039
of it, if that makes sense, and that would sort

354
00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:22,279
of become this like didactic moment, and you were quite

355
00:18:22,279 --> 00:18:26,079
delicate with that. So just kudo's there, But we haven't

356
00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:29,240
really gotten into the sort of, you know, the thrust

357
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,359
of this, right, what happens to Jim when he's down

358
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:37,440
there with his you know, his coworkers. So briefly, and

359
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,480
again we're not trying to you know, provide a blow

360
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,240
by blow. There's a lot more that we can't cover.

361
00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,079
But you know what does Jim discover and kind of

362
00:18:44,079 --> 00:18:45,119
the bowels of this city?

363
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's there's uh I think on the front

364
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,519
cover of the book, I describe it as a labyrinth

365
00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:56,680
of the mind that he and the crew they they're

366
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,759
they're down there doing sewer rehabilitation work. So this is

367
00:18:59,799 --> 00:19:03,000
hand on stuff, basically patching up a very old sewer,

368
00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:04,799
and this is something I've spent a lot of time

369
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,599
watching at least and being right next to you, so

370
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:12,720
it's very familiar to me. And they they basically uncover

371
00:19:12,839 --> 00:19:16,799
a sort of side tunnel that leads them into you know,

372
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,759
I almost cringe at the word to use the words,

373
00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:21,640
but they basically leads them into a portal and this

374
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,559
Once they pass through this, the next sort of thing

375
00:19:25,599 --> 00:19:28,799
that happens to them is they're now in some other

376
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,480
terrain within the within the sewer that seems to be

377
00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:36,960
partially defined by like their own mental state. And when

378
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,079
they try to exit the sewer, they discover that, you know,

379
00:19:40,319 --> 00:19:42,880
they're not in Kansas anymore. Fundamentally, they climb up out

380
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,440
of the sewer and it's similar to home, but it's

381
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,000
not home, and that sort of kicks off the sort

382
00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:52,119
of I guess the a plot of the book of

383
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:59,039
them trying to navigate this increasingly dangerous and and unpredictable

384
00:19:59,039 --> 00:20:02,680
and mysterious labyrinth that is that the sewer they were

385
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,519
in has become And yeah, yeah, I don't know. I think.

386
00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:09,519
I don't think that gives away anything that's not already

387
00:20:09,559 --> 00:20:11,680
given away on the back, in either the front or

388
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,759
the back cover of the book. But it gets, you know,

389
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,759
it definitely goes into speculative terrain. We're in We're in

390
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,000
sf land by page I don't know, thirty or something

391
00:20:22,079 --> 00:20:27,279
like that. I would say, oh, you're on mute there.

392
00:20:27,279 --> 00:20:33,319
Speaker 1: Sorry, a professional podcaster, you'd think I know how to

393
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,880
use this software, considering I use it at least daily.

394
00:20:37,559 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 3: No, I get it, I get it. I'm always looking

395
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,960
for some button I used yesterday. Yeah, I understand.

396
00:20:43,039 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 1: Point is the interaction between the different sewer workers is

397
00:20:47,759 --> 00:20:52,400
quite It's really interesting, right. You have kind of different characters, which,

398
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,559
if you have worked a low end job before you

399
00:20:55,599 --> 00:20:59,680
have met these guys, you have which is honestly, like,

400
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,480
I think one are the strengths of it is like

401
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,000
I'm reading through this, it's like, oh, you know, that's

402
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,960
not the captain, that's this guy I know, right. It

403
00:21:08,079 --> 00:21:10,400
feels very kind of true to life, which I enjoyed,

404
00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:12,880
and especially the kind of fish out of water nature

405
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,000
of being like the college kid, you know, being like,

406
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,799
you know, the educated middle class person for whatever those

407
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,720
terms are. We in a you know, more hands on

408
00:21:21,759 --> 00:21:25,839
the ground setting, you capture that feeling well. But the

409
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,799
first sort of portal they emerge into, if I'm not mistaken,

410
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,160
is an almost one to one copy of the world

411
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,920
that they left, except it is completely and totally depopulated.

412
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,559
Speaker 3: So of course he's disappeared.

413
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't really understand, you know, what's going on,

414
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,359
so they all, you know, leave and you know, as

415
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,720
they go back, obviously Jim goes back to his wife,

416
00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:54,319
kids or his home where he sees nothing, something that

417
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,880
happens multiple times in the book with sort of different

418
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,319
you know, in different versions, we see that same thing happen.

419
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:09,200
But before they meet back up, Jim does a little borrowing, right, right,

420
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,759
and you know, this is one of the one of

421
00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:15,240
really two things he carries with him through most of

422
00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:19,000
this book, obviously not through all of it. But do

423
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,519
you want to speak to kind of the symbolic and

424
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,359
symbolic that sounds chin stroking the importance of this watch

425
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,000
in the narrative.

426
00:22:25,839 --> 00:22:27,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, that's that's a good point. Yeah. So

427
00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:29,960
he yeah, he goes in, he steals this watch, and

428
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,559
it's a it's a very particular person's watch, which is

429
00:22:32,759 --> 00:22:38,079
significant both plot wise and sort of in Jim's psychology.

430
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:39,599
And and and you know, part of the reason he

431
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,720
steals his watch is it's worth a lot of money.

432
00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:45,400
And and you know, I suppose if you're trying to

433
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,480
steal something, stealing something that you can fit in your

434
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,200
pocket that's worth you know, a couple hundred thousand dollars

435
00:22:50,319 --> 00:22:52,359
is probably a pretty good option if you're going to

436
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,599
steal something. But I mean, for me, in terms of

437
00:22:57,079 --> 00:23:00,279
it being an aspect of the plot, it's and and

438
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,240
sort of what's going on for Jim, it's you know,

439
00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:05,160
I see it as a sort of an attempt for

440
00:23:05,279 --> 00:23:11,039
him to to sort of haltingly and fumblingly start to

441
00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:14,200
assert his agency, because as the book begins, he has

442
00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:19,279
very little sort of by his own, by his own doing,

443
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,759
by his own sort of lack of a spine fundamentally,

444
00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:25,720
and so it's sort of the beginnings of him, the

445
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,599
very very dim early echoes of him beginning that process.

446
00:23:30,839 --> 00:23:35,160
But it's also I mean, it also comes back. I

447
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,799
don't want to give it too much away, but it

448
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,880
becomes a problem later on in a in a hopefully

449
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,359
somewhat surprising way for people who are reading it. And

450
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,000
what I wanted to what I what I was hoping

451
00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:51,480
to do with that is, I mean, partially what I'm

452
00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:55,480
trying to do with this book is create multiple layers

453
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,160
of senses of claustrophobia. Right, there's the actual physical claustrophobia

454
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,960
of being in like an eight foot sewer pipe. Then

455
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,559
that's if anybody's ever been in one that's got this

456
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,400
own like claustrophobia to it. And I've seen people who

457
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,200
can't be in there before, you know, they just innately

458
00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:12,039
can't deal with it. So I wanted that, But I

459
00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:16,680
also want to sort of fractal layers of claustrophobia so

460
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,640
that when you make just in I guess how that

461
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,240
perhaps relates to my perspective on how sort of life

462
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,160
in reality works is that every decision you make has

463
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,000
a kind of combinatorial explosion of like what can result

464
00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:36,279
from you making those decisions. And so you know, perhaps

465
00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:40,319
on some level, I'm saying that because of that, because

466
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,799
you can't ever predict what's going to be the outfall

467
00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:45,279
of your decisions. Like your best bet is like try

468
00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:47,519
to do the right thing all the time, you know,

469
00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:50,920
like literally just like tell the truth and don't hurt people,

470
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,359
and like and all of the sort of old verities

471
00:24:54,039 --> 00:24:57,079
and and you know, and maybe think even if you

472
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,559
do that, things may still not work out, of course,

473
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,119
but definitely violating them is opening yourself up to, uh,

474
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,000
opening yourself up to that that sort of fractal layer

475
00:25:09,039 --> 00:25:12,640
of cross class fractal layers of claustrophobia closing in on

476
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:13,640
you even more.

477
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,599
Speaker 1: You know, there's a decent amount of house of leaves

478
00:25:19,599 --> 00:25:23,480
in this, uh, which you know I was just I

479
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,279
just sort of sprang into my head both you know,

480
00:25:26,319 --> 00:25:28,279
in that sense of you know, being in this sort

481
00:25:28,279 --> 00:25:30,640
of like maze of the mind, right, this kind of

482
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,960
like non Euclidean realm, but also because sort of one

483
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,640
of the other things that you know, Jim carries, you know,

484
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:44,799
through this is a book that he both aspires to

485
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,119
read to write and has already written. Right, he comes

486
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,000
into possession to you know, this book right underneath and

487
00:25:52,079 --> 00:25:56,559
inside written by Jim. And it's interesting because at the beginning,

488
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,200
right where he's sort of stumbling around, you know, trying

489
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,000
to figure out how to put his life back together,

490
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:02,680
you know, one of the things that he throws out

491
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,839
at the parties like, oh, I'm working on a book, right,

492
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,279
which you know may or may not be true to

493
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,519
what degree. Right, he's working on that book.

494
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 3: That's easy to pay too, right, It's easy, just big, Yeah,

495
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,039
I'm working on a book. Yeah, right.

496
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting because it does sort of

497
00:26:20,039 --> 00:26:22,920
not quite the B plot. But at the beginning to

498
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,640
you know, almost every chapter you get an excerpt from

499
00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:31,559
his book, which is all about these underground spaces. So

500
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,000
what are you trying to accomplish with those excerpts from

501
00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:37,200
his book? And then also what is the importance of

502
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,119
this book? Somewhat later in the narrative, he has a

503
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,039
physical copy, another thing he carries with him at least

504
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:45,839
through most of this journey, but it does stand out.

505
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, at initially there's there's that book, the book,

506
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,799
inside the book, underneath and inside kind of it check

507
00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:01,200
on different characters through the development of this book book. Initially,

508
00:27:01,599 --> 00:27:05,119
I was just doing a ton of research and reading

509
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:12,160
and listening to stuff about various trying to understand the

510
00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:18,839
sort of ecosystem of images and historical references and metaphors

511
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,160
and frankly like even like the poetics of underground, of

512
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:29,000
subterranean spaces, of soil, of matter to some degree, and

513
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,599
just trying to get my head around like what this

514
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,359
has meant to people over time? So the fact that

515
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,279
we and just like a couple of examples of like

516
00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:40,240
what I mean, like why do we bury our dead?

517
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,799
I mean, I understand that there are practical reasons for that,

518
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,279
but like it clearly means something to us more than

519
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,839
just the practical thing, right, we take it pretty seriously.

520
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,240
And then what is up with all these there's stories

521
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,640
about people, Well, why is hell underground? Right? Why? You know,

522
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,920
maybe it really is right, and I'm not saying it's not,

523
00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:05,519
but like, clearly this there's something that we keep putting,

524
00:28:05,519 --> 00:28:09,960
we keep metaphorically putting stuff down there, right, And then

525
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,759
it's also sort of a mysterious place, like you know,

526
00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:17,680
there's it's not It's not just dirt quote unquote dirt.

527
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,480
I mean there's not only are there a thousand varieties

528
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,680
of dirt, but there's crystals, and there's caves, and there's

529
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,119
creatures sometimes that live down there. There's all kinds of

530
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,200
that stuff. But then there's all these myths about the

531
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,680
Hollow Earth, which I don't personally think is true, but

532
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,960
it's interesting that it keeps popping up. So I was

533
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,559
trying to under I was trying to get my head

534
00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:36,920
around all what all of this was, like saying, what

535
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,160
was this whole part of the human story? And then

536
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,319
I realized, like, most of it doesn't actually fit in

537
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,400
this in the narrative of this book, right, but I

538
00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:49,160
find it fascinating. So I think initially what I was

539
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,720
trying to do was create I was trying to find

540
00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:56,880
a place to put all of this stuff initially, But

541
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,200
then kind of what I realized was I I could

542
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,920
sort of externalize a lot of the stuff that Jim

543
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,599
was going to be figuring out about his experience, sort

544
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,759
of post the experience, like I guess, you know, in

545
00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:18,240
one sense, he's written this after the events of the

546
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,599
book sort of, and I've realized I could like externalize

547
00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:26,079
all this sort of what could be internal thought that

548
00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:28,279
he might be having about trying to figure out and

549
00:29:28,319 --> 00:29:31,480
parse out his experience. So it's kind of ultimately doing that.

550
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,319
And then also I just thought, I mean, on top

551
00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:38,200
of that, and then it becoming the book itself, becoming

552
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,079
this plot device within the book became fascinating to me,

553
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:47,119
And I thought, well, especially as me being a writer,

554
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,039
what it would do to you to like see a

555
00:29:51,079 --> 00:29:54,200
book that you might write actually in existence, Like how

556
00:29:54,319 --> 00:29:57,599
might that sort of rewire your motivational structures or psychology?

557
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,400
Might it freak you out, inspire you? Whatever? I thought

558
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,000
that was. I thought that was cool and interesting. Plus

559
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:09,039
it starts to make the the metaphysics of this story

560
00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:12,000
even it was a way of showing how complicated the

561
00:30:12,319 --> 00:30:15,359
sort of hidden metaphysics of this story actually are.

562
00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:19,839
Speaker 1: Well, and there is a the kind of like symbolic

563
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,000
psychology of the earth, right, like the Earth is the

564
00:30:23,039 --> 00:30:28,440
Earth is mother. And yet also in this narrative there

565
00:30:28,519 --> 00:30:30,920
is what do you want to call it, like an

566
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,480
eggregor or some sort of spiritual spider at the center

567
00:30:35,559 --> 00:30:39,200
of this web, who, in a bizarre way is sort

568
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,240
of matriarchal right, it's the like a shade of the

569
00:30:42,319 --> 00:30:47,359
Devouring Mother. And obviously there's much more than this, but it,

570
00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:50,559
you know, it does sort of remind me of Coraline, right,

571
00:30:50,599 --> 00:30:54,039
the idea of this sort of descent into you know,

572
00:30:54,119 --> 00:30:56,920
sort of an alternate vision of the possible. Obviously there

573
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,559
are you know, many different, many differences between the two,

574
00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:03,480
but that is a very old human story, right, the

575
00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:07,000
idea of you know, sort of descending into the other

576
00:31:07,079 --> 00:31:10,599
world or the underworld rather where things are not as

577
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,519
they seem. And I'll let you respond to that, because

578
00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:17,720
obviously the Spider is both a motif and a character

579
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:23,680
in this book. That's very, very fascinating. But obviously they

580
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:27,720
continually exit from the sewers over and over again and

581
00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:30,119
are presented with sort of a new vista, right, a

582
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,559
new world, some of which are sort of shades of

583
00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:39,440
the possible, some of which are incredibly surreal, and I

584
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,680
think the second one and fregeing them if I get

585
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,440
this out of order, But is this sort of you know,

586
00:31:46,279 --> 00:31:49,640
this is am I opposed apocalyptic version of Detroit. It's

587
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:54,680
this sort of riot running rampant and what's interesting, I

588
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,359
think this is a turn for both the character and

589
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,079
for us is our understanding of what's happening is that,

590
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,880
you know, the party has sort of set upon beaten.

591
00:32:03,519 --> 00:32:07,599
Jim runs, which is an interesting character development. And in

592
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,799
his flight he not only wounds himself right, a wound

593
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:13,200
that he will carry with him through most of this book,

594
00:32:13,799 --> 00:32:17,599
but also he again goes back to his home and

595
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,680
is seemingly his wife and children are there, but one

596
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,799
of his neighbors you know, basically says it scares him

597
00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:27,039
off with shotgun, says like, hey, don't come back, I

598
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,519
buried Jim years ago, right again, Yeah, showing us as

599
00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:35,319
the audience, right, Okay, we're seeing kind of different dimensions

600
00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:39,079
sound stupid, but different realities. So I realized I took

601
00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:41,000
you slightly away from where I wanted to go with this.

602
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:43,920
But can you talk a little bit about the spider

603
00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:47,200
right at the center of this kind of network? Yeah?

604
00:32:47,279 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's interesting when you can't. I mean, for

605
00:32:51,039 --> 00:32:54,319
anybody who's listening to this, who's written a piece of

606
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:59,680
like speculative fiction that has sort of cosmological implications, right,

607
00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:04,400
Like there's I don't think our world actually works the

608
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,279
way that the world works in the Earth and Dark, right,

609
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,480
But in order to kind of get yourself to that point.

610
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:13,240
You kind of have to you kind of have to

611
00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:16,119
halfway believe it, just in order to figure your way

612
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,480
through all the implications kind of what it kind of

613
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,359
comes down to me, And it's it's a little difficult

614
00:33:22,359 --> 00:33:25,160
to articulate, probably any more clearly than it comes across

615
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,599
in the book. But I think I started piecing together

616
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:35,720
like a bunch of different things mythological. Some of them

617
00:33:35,759 --> 00:33:39,599
are just sort of jokes about America. Right, I'm very

618
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:45,359
interested in this idea that there is some weird thing

619
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,039
at the heart of America that and I'm not the

620
00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:51,240
first person to say this, right, I mean, this is

621
00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:53,279
kind of what Lovecraft's work is about. This is kind

622
00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:55,279
of what David Lynch's work is about, this is what

623
00:33:55,319 --> 00:33:57,200
some of William S. Burrows's work is about, and a

624
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,599
bunch of other writers and not start coming up with

625
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,960
this by myself, that there's something weird here that's operating

626
00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:08,679
on some other plane. Maybe it's demonic, you know, I don't,

627
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,360
I don't know. Those those words are so loaded that

628
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,000
you know, you're not sure if they apply necessarily. So

629
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:16,480
I got really like thinking about that quite a lot.

630
00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:18,480
And then trying to figure out, like, well, what would

631
00:34:18,519 --> 00:34:20,760
the nature what is the like if you really could

632
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,760
like look if that's if that's a thing, and you

633
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,400
could look directly at it, what would it be? And

634
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:34,039
I like the spider for that for a bunch of reasons.

635
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,039
One is it fits into a bunch of North and

636
00:34:39,119 --> 00:34:43,840
South American native belief structures in an interesting way, Like

637
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,920
it's not quite benevolent or malevolent. It's sort of shape

638
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,760
shifts in that context depending on when the story is

639
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,320
told and who's telling it. But it's never quite clear

640
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,639
that it's never quite all positive or quite all negative.

641
00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:00,199
So it's in this sort of medium space where I

642
00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:02,400
think they were trying to figure out what this thing meant,

643
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,920
and then you know, there's and then they're to me

644
00:35:07,039 --> 00:35:10,519
there's also I don't know if this gives away too much,

645
00:35:10,519 --> 00:35:13,679
but there's something fundamentally algorithmic about the way that a

646
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,199
spider works. So the way that they construct a web,

647
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,519
they don't construct a bunch of different kinds of webs.

648
00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:22,480
They have one web that's a very specific thing that

649
00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:26,519
is apparently programmed deep down in their DNA. Right, they

650
00:35:26,519 --> 00:35:30,360
don't learn how to their their mother doesn't mother spiders

651
00:35:30,559 --> 00:35:32,559
teach their young how to make this web. It just

652
00:35:32,559 --> 00:35:34,159
seems to know how to do it, but it's in

653
00:35:34,199 --> 00:35:39,639
a very almost mechanical kind of To me, the more

654
00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:41,639
I thought about the kind of creepy way that it

655
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,840
just has this like software program running in its brain

656
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,239
to make to make this thing right, and it's a

657
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,599
trap fundamentally. So yeah, So, you know, expanding that fundamental

658
00:35:53,639 --> 00:35:55,760
thing that kind of creeps me out about spiders. And

659
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,079
I'm not particularly a rachnophobia aphobic or anything, it's just

660
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,840
sort of philosophically, it creeps me out expanding that to

661
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,119
try and think about, well, what to me is this

662
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,320
weird thing about America that we keep And I still

663
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,800
don't know that I totally understand it necessarily, But there

664
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:20,679
is something we do here that's early algorithmic and programmatic

665
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,360
that we don't think we really understand. And I think,

666
00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:28,039
like in in the So I Guess the Spider, there's

667
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,639
sort of a metaphor for all of that, and it

668
00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:33,599
shows up, I mean in the book, it shows up

669
00:36:33,639 --> 00:36:35,800
in other places too, because I think like the forces

670
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,519
that get Jim canceled, I think those are like a

671
00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:42,679
weird perverse algorithmic thing run amuck as well. Right, So

672
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:48,159
it's not just this like speculative fun thing I came

673
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,880
up with. I'm trying to, like, al must make an

674
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,039
analogy for it. I think is weird about like deep

675
00:36:55,079 --> 00:36:59,119
down weird about America. I felt like I was rambling there. Sorry,

676
00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:01,840
Oh no, oh, not at all.

677
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:10,559
Speaker 1: And obviously we see this kind of you know, repeated

678
00:37:10,639 --> 00:37:13,679
motif of like the spider or the web, and in fact,

679
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,400
one of these sort of alternate realities that you know,

680
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,679
Jim finds himself in. It is just is just a

681
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,559
mess of you know, ropes and lines and sort of

682
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:28,199
a spider's web, right, and it's it's kind of interesting

683
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,360
again the you know, the algorithmic element, because you know,

684
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,639
different characters react to this situation very differently, and you

685
00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:39,360
know there is at least a level to which you know,

686
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,320
Jem and others are trying to figure it out, are

687
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,840
trying to kind of suss out the internal logic you know,

688
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,480
of this of this sort of traft that they're in.

689
00:37:48,559 --> 00:37:53,199
There's another top side excursion and it bears repeating that

690
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,679
throughout this whole situation. Uh, Jim is seriously wounded and

691
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,360
obviously having an open wound in a sewer is not

692
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,320
good for you, right to be blunt. He's going through

693
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,039
suffering and in one of this in one of these instantiations,

694
00:38:09,079 --> 00:38:13,079
they sort of go up into kind of a like

695
00:38:13,159 --> 00:38:18,159
a Bronze age version of Detroit, right, and you know, Jim,

696
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,760
Jim comes out right, He's able to kind of you know,

697
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,639
barter for clothes, and he returns to his wife, right,

698
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,519
his wife speaking in an accent he doesn't quite remember,

699
00:38:27,519 --> 00:38:31,719
he doesn't quite understand. But his daughter, who is another one,

700
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,440
I think, probably without a lot of screen time, one

701
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,880
of the best parts of this book. You've written her

702
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:39,679
very very well.

703
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 3: It's very endearing. Uh.

704
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: But you know, in this section his daughter has been

705
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,760
effectively selected as sort of like a you know, vestal version,

706
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,719
a you know, sacrificial I guess pawn in a religious

707
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,800
rite where she will be how would you say, trepand

708
00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,360
will have a hole drilled in her head. I'm not

709
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,760
sure what the correct form of that would be. He

710
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:09,599
said it, right, Ye, forced to undergo trepanation. And there

711
00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:13,440
are several things interesting about that. And you know, again

712
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,000
we're sort of watching this transformation of Jim from sort

713
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,079
of a you know, a low to high agency or

714
00:39:20,159 --> 00:39:24,639
kind of this cowardly to courageous figure. And as they

715
00:39:24,679 --> 00:39:27,559
go up to this temple right to save his sort

716
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:31,000
of alternate daughter, there is a part of this ritual

717
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,400
which is only known to women. His wife has done

718
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,800
that part. And there's a definite moment where there is

719
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,119
a word and you know, his wife tells him like,

720
00:39:39,159 --> 00:39:41,679
there's a word that the men know, I don't and

721
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,440
if you don't say it, it's done right, and he fails.

722
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,199
He doesn't, He freezes up, He pauses and effectively runs

723
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,599
back into the sewer right to kind of find an

724
00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:58,559
alternate world again. And so I think it's really interesting

725
00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:01,599
that this, you know, the sort of alternate realities give

726
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,639
sort of Jim a chance to sort of go through

727
00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:09,880
similar motions in a different context. But also I think

728
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,280
it's a really interesting moment because it's a very definite

729
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,199
and again we've seen this before, you know, when his

730
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,960
friends were being beaten he ran. Where Jim fails to act,

731
00:40:19,039 --> 00:40:22,679
he freezes, and I'm curious, can you speak to that

732
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,719
sort of evolution. Obviously we have the the the before

733
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,320
and after, we know that this is an arc, but

734
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,360
kind of that process of him developing throughout the novel.

735
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and on one level it's it's it's

736
00:40:35,519 --> 00:40:38,519
sort of classic sort of hero's journey kind of stuff, right,

737
00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:43,159
I mean the fundamental I mean the fundamental aspect of

738
00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:47,920
like the modern adventure and I'm using modern very broadly.

739
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,440
Adventure story is a character who you know, undergoes this

740
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,880
transformation and they become like a better version of themselves

741
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:59,199
in some way, And so you know, it's that it's

742
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,239
and you know, as a for if you're a writer

743
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:04,760
out there and you're sort of thinking about how you're

744
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,239
going to put this thing, this book together, and you

745
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,880
want your character to change, and you know, it's sort

746
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,119
of trite to say that, you know, that's all stories

747
00:41:12,119 --> 00:41:14,840
are about a character changing. Well, that's sort of easy

748
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:21,000
to say, but that change doesn't happen instantaneously. Like I

749
00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:23,440
like to think that I've become a better person and

750
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,880
a better man over you know, my years of adulthood.

751
00:41:27,639 --> 00:41:32,159
I definitely, I definitely am a much better person than

752
00:41:32,159 --> 00:41:34,360
I was when I was twenty. You know, I don't

753
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,360
think I was a bad person necessarily, but I had

754
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,119
there's a lot of stuff I hadn't figured out about

755
00:41:38,119 --> 00:41:41,119
myself and about the world, about responsibility and about you know,

756
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,400
a whole bunch of other things. And that process for

757
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,599
me was slow, and it was one of uh, sometimes

758
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,719
being forced to make forced to grow very very fast

759
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,679
in some dimension, forced to just confront with like, yeah,

760
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,760
I screwed that up in a very very serious way,

761
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:03,000
and uh, I either got to suck it up and

762
00:42:03,039 --> 00:42:05,679
like adapt to that or just let it crush me.

763
00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:08,920
You know. So it was trying to think about, like,

764
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:15,599
you know, turn what uh what are I think very

765
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,519
real things that all men go through and terms on

766
00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:23,840
the process of like becoming what they could be, uh,

767
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,000
and trying to turn those into something that that lays

768
00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:29,840
on sort of an adventure story, like something with like

769
00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:35,360
very high exaggerated stakes and and and that sort of thing. So,

770
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,039
so yeah, that, I mean that moment of that moment

771
00:42:39,039 --> 00:42:41,760
of him not not having the word he's supposed to

772
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,079
have relates to something that I have felt a couple

773
00:42:46,159 --> 00:42:49,239
times in my life where it's sort of like, man,

774
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,480
it feels like everybody knows what they're supposed to do

775
00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:54,440
in this situation except for me, Like how did like

776
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,519
who was there a manual that I didn't get that

777
00:42:57,599 --> 00:43:00,360
everybody else, you know, seemed and that it's like the

778
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,000
self pitying way to go is like, well, I you

779
00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:05,079
know everybody else has got something I don't, blah blah

780
00:43:05,079 --> 00:43:08,559
blah blah blah. But you know, I've definitely all that

781
00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:10,960
is to say, I've definitely had those moments where I like,

782
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,519
I felt like I've had I've held that feeling where like, oh,

783
00:43:14,519 --> 00:43:17,159
it seems like everybody else already figured this out except

784
00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:20,760
for me, and now I have to kind of go

785
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,800
about this the hard way. And so yeah, I was

786
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,800
just trying to find a way to get that aspect

787
00:43:28,119 --> 00:43:31,480
of development that I think applies to most people and

788
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:36,039
narrativize that, dramatize that, make that interesting. But there's there's

789
00:43:36,079 --> 00:43:38,159
other stuff going on in that scene as well. But

790
00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:41,719
in terms of Jim's development, that's that's kind of what

791
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,400
I was what I was trying to find. I was

792
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,360
trying to find a real it's gonna say real world.

793
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,199
It's definitely not real world. It's trying to find an

794
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,400
in world correlative to that internal process.

795
00:43:54,599 --> 00:43:59,119
Speaker 1: Fundamentally, do you mention there's other stuff you're trying to

796
00:43:59,159 --> 00:44:01,599
accomplish with that, right? What else are you trying to

797
00:44:01,599 --> 00:44:02,199
get at there.

798
00:44:02,679 --> 00:44:06,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, well there's there's I suppose a bunch

799
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,519
of things. I mean in that scene, in that whole chapter.

800
00:44:11,119 --> 00:44:14,440
You know, there's there's implications about what has what's been

801
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:20,840
different historically there, and you do see people. There's essentially

802
00:44:21,079 --> 00:44:24,440
there's essentially like a volcano cult is basically what he's

803
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,440
dealing with. And I mean this sort of ties into

804
00:44:29,679 --> 00:44:33,559
this broader metaphorical system that I'm dealing with here about

805
00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:36,440
the Earth and what does the earth mean? What is it?

806
00:44:36,559 --> 00:44:40,920
How does it relate to how humans view the cosmos

807
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:47,239
view themselves? And you know, sometimes I think sometimes I

808
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,400
think when you're really trying to like kind of crack

809
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,719
some mystery about human beings and how we are, it's

810
00:44:54,199 --> 00:44:57,840
it's interesting to take like an extreme or like steer

811
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,639
it off in a different direction and look how it

812
00:44:59,679 --> 00:45:04,000
developed differently, and that can sometimes reveal the gap between

813
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,519
how things are for us here in twenty twenty six.

814
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,360
You know, we're both in America, and we both have

815
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,000
our you know, you know, you and I have had

816
00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:16,239
different upbringings and stuff, but our upbringings and whatnot are

817
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,360
very a lot more similar than if we compare ourselves

818
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,840
to somebody in Malaysia, Right, But I think when we

819
00:45:23,079 --> 00:45:26,039
examine that gap, we can sometimes get a clear sense

820
00:45:26,079 --> 00:45:29,079
of like, what are the factors that actually developed to

821
00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:32,039
us sort of being who we are as individuals and

822
00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:37,039
as societies. So trying to kind of like push things

823
00:45:37,079 --> 00:45:40,960
out in ways that I think are interesting and emotionally

824
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,639
evocative and you know, maybe ring some bells to sort

825
00:45:46,679 --> 00:45:48,800
of try to get a look at those kinds of things.

826
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's a close to the end of the book,

827
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,280
there's a really interesting instance and you mentioned it earlier

828
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,760
when talking about the Watch.

829
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:12,159
Speaker 1: Where Jim basically is provided the opportunity to with you know,

830
00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:16,079
his his newly discovered agency right or wrong, right to

831
00:46:16,199 --> 00:46:19,960
go back to the day where his his life was upended,

832
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:26,679
and effectively he steals into his house, finds himself and

833
00:46:27,519 --> 00:46:29,920
lays down the law, basically says like, here's what you're

834
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,679
gonna do, and here's you know, how you're going to

835
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:37,519
go through it. And in a worst novel, that would

836
00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:40,599
be the end of it. Right, He goes back and

837
00:46:40,639 --> 00:46:43,719
creates this sort of splinter reality. We're all as well.

838
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,360
He you know, is able to go back and fix himself.

839
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:51,880
But that's not what happens. And I think this is

840
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,880
a really interesting point in the in the novel thematically

841
00:46:54,960 --> 00:47:00,199
and also just from a pure narrative perspective. I you

842
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,400
built up enough trust at this point that I wasn't

843
00:47:02,519 --> 00:47:04,840
quite worried you were going to land there. But there

844
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:06,119
was a part of me wh I was like, all right,

845
00:47:06,199 --> 00:47:08,679
come on, like, let's let's not you know, fumble us

846
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:09,639
at the end zone.

847
00:47:09,519 --> 00:47:11,559
Speaker 3: Right, and then we're just gonna have like a like

848
00:47:11,599 --> 00:47:14,360
a rising score and all this friends are gonna.

849
00:47:14,119 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: Clap, yeah, and then and then everyone clapped, right right, Yeah,

850
00:47:18,119 --> 00:47:21,840
read it. But so I want if you could, could

851
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,320
you explain what's going on there?

852
00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 3: Why?

853
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, doesn't it end there?

854
00:47:28,119 --> 00:47:32,119
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah? Well I think it doesn't end there, partially

855
00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:38,519
because yeah, it's a good question. Why doesn't it end there? Well,

856
00:47:38,599 --> 00:47:44,039
I think part of it is I don't think I

857
00:47:44,119 --> 00:47:46,519
think part of this relates to sort of my view

858
00:47:46,679 --> 00:47:51,000
of how things work in life, and that is and

859
00:47:51,079 --> 00:47:52,960
this is maybe the way I'm gonna say this is

860
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,840
going to sound more cynical than I intended. Nothing ever

861
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,760
is over like it's it's never really like. I don't

862
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,400
think it's like over until you sort of you're in

863
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,320
the grave, I was gonna say in the grave, and

864
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,360
then even not, because it's the people you leave behind,

865
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,679
the situations you leave behind and all that. It's sort

866
00:48:11,679 --> 00:48:15,440
of never yeah, there's always like one more turn of

867
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:21,679
the screw kind of right. And and generally in my life,

868
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,119
all victories have come with having to sort of give

869
00:48:24,199 --> 00:48:27,719
something up. There's always been this aspect where like, well,

870
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,400
this opportunity has happened, this doorway has opened up, so

871
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,920
this other one has to be closed. And if I

872
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,599
try to bring you know, and also that you don't

873
00:48:37,639 --> 00:48:40,039
necessarily get to bring you know, if a new sort

874
00:48:40,039 --> 00:48:42,519
of door opens up or a new opportunity presents itself.

875
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,320
Exuse me, you don't always get to bring everything with

876
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,760
you like you do perhaps have to. You do perhaps

877
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,519
have to become a different person to live on the

878
00:48:53,559 --> 00:48:57,559
other side of that barrier. And that's not I think

879
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:02,480
that process of like becoming in a positive way a

880
00:49:02,519 --> 00:49:04,920
different person, I think that often gets painted as this

881
00:49:05,079 --> 00:49:07,679
Like really, I don't want to say people will necessarily

882
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,440
painted is easy, but a fairly straightforward process where it's

883
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,199
like well, if you just you know, if you just

884
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:18,000
eat right and you get up on time, and you

885
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,280
you know you stop doing this.

886
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 1: It is a shade of a shade of the Jordan

887
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,679
Peterson impersonation there you're into current.

888
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,079
Speaker 3: It might be I've got a lot of Jordan Peterson

889
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:30,519
in my head, to be honest, probably too much. But

890
00:49:30,519 --> 00:49:32,599
but you know what I mean, Like it's like you

891
00:49:32,599 --> 00:49:39,519
you can't there's there's there's always like it's always more complicated.

892
00:49:39,599 --> 00:49:43,239
I guess all this stuff about how people develop psychologically

893
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,119
and grow and become better people, and we can become

894
00:49:45,159 --> 00:49:50,079
better people, but it's an it's a messy process and

895
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,480
occasionally it's painful, and occasionally actual sacrifices have to be

896
00:49:54,519 --> 00:49:57,639
made to like become that become that better thing, right,

897
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,920
And that's often the reason why we don't do them.

898
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:06,079
That's we kind of know, like Jim is, he's spineless,

899
00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:09,840
but that for zero reasons, right, He got kind of

900
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,000
comfortable in his position. He doesn't want to rock the

901
00:50:13,039 --> 00:50:15,199
boat because you know who does want to rock the

902
00:50:15,199 --> 00:50:19,719
boat really unless they have to, And so you know,

903
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,360
all of the this is the situation he finds himself

904
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,880
in is an accumulation of small decisions in the wrong

905
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,280
direction that he made, and so the process of trying

906
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,639
to steer that ship back. You know you're going to

907
00:50:30,679 --> 00:50:32,760
bump into a lot of stuff on the way. I

908
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:34,119
guess well.

909
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 1: And additionally, it's sort of in an exploration of that,

910
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:40,119
you know, that motif of like the arguments you have

911
00:50:40,199 --> 00:50:42,920
in the shower after the fact, right where it's like, oh,

912
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,159
it would have been it would have been great if

913
00:50:44,199 --> 00:50:46,920
I said this, And you know, of course everyone knows

914
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,280
that that's sort of a vain hope, right it is,

915
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,639
So you get to see the character who's been stewing

916
00:50:51,679 --> 00:50:55,440
on that for months, right the time is bizarre in

917
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,199
this intentionally, so a long time you know, gets to

918
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,840
go back and see, I don't wait, no, you know this,

919
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,639
This wouldn't have magically changed everything if you had had

920
00:51:04,639 --> 00:51:05,920
the perfect retort.

921
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,039
Speaker 3: Right, Well, that's the thing I don't I mean, I

922
00:51:08,079 --> 00:51:11,880
don't know about you. I've only really like told somebody

923
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,079
off a few times in my life. And it's not

924
00:51:16,159 --> 00:51:18,239
like it's just over after that. It's not like the

925
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,199
credits just roll after that, like the one time that

926
00:51:21,199 --> 00:51:23,119
comes to mind immediately, I had to work with that

927
00:51:23,159 --> 00:51:26,000
person the next day, so like it just it was

928
00:51:26,199 --> 00:51:27,760
it was probably good in the long run, but it

929
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,599
just opened up a whole other set of like awkwardnesses

930
00:51:30,639 --> 00:51:34,679
and stuff that had to be dealt with, right, Yeah, yeah,

931
00:51:34,679 --> 00:51:37,039
it's not when Yeah.

932
00:51:37,639 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 1: Well, and there's sort of an interesting echo to that.

933
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:47,119
And we've not mentioned much about the party that Jim

934
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,159
finds himself with, which is you know, a lot of

935
00:51:49,199 --> 00:51:51,840
the meat of the book. There's a lot going on there. Look, man,

936
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:52,960
it's an hour long podcast.

937
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,159
Speaker 3: Read the book. Yeah, uh, that's splice.

938
00:51:56,519 --> 00:52:00,159
Speaker 1: The character of the Captain is quite interesting, and for

939
00:52:00,199 --> 00:52:05,159
two reasons. One, he has both a complicated relationship with

940
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,960
his father, you know. One of the things he constantly

941
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,639
refers to this riffin of like when men were met,

942
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:12,960
you know, the men who built the sewers were different

943
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,440
than us. And he talks about his father and he

944
00:52:16,519 --> 00:52:19,159
himself is this sort of you know, a strange relationship

945
00:52:19,199 --> 00:52:21,800
to his sons. You know, he says, my sons basically

946
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,159
look at me like a you know, a combination between

947
00:52:24,199 --> 00:52:28,119
a Confederate statue and a piggybank, you know, being this

948
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:34,280
both racist and source of money. But roughly at this

949
00:52:34,519 --> 00:52:41,719
similar time in the book. Fuzzy on details, but he

950
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:46,760
meets his own father in a bar, right, he recounts,

951
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,119
you know, sort of going back in time what he wanted.

952
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,199
Speaker 3: Oh this is another that's actually another kid, that's actually

953
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:56,599
another character. But yes, oh shoot, my bad, that's okay,

954
00:52:56,639 --> 00:52:58,079
that's okay. I just don't want you to. I don't

955
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:00,360
still want to start making connections that aren't there. But yeah,

956
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,480
but the fathers are fathers are definitely a theme here

957
00:53:03,559 --> 00:53:05,800
for sure. Yeah.

958
00:53:06,119 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: Well, and when there is this meeting between a character

959
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,519
who is not the character I thought it was and

960
00:53:11,599 --> 00:53:14,119
his father in you know this sort of like you know,

961
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,519
dingy dingy bar, it's very interesting interaction. So if you could,

962
00:53:18,559 --> 00:53:20,360
can you explain that a little bit, you know, just

963
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:21,199
what happens there.

964
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So, as you know, as they're trying to

965
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,039
get out of this labyrinth, initially they kind of do

966
00:53:29,199 --> 00:53:31,599
things sort of as a team, but over time it

967
00:53:31,679 --> 00:53:35,880
gets like diffused and their their fates there's four four

968
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,440
guys down in this or their fates start to get

969
00:53:39,679 --> 00:53:41,719
go off in sort of different directions. And one of

970
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,199
the characters, a guy named Ray who sort of has

971
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,719
his own arc. He finds himself in a sort of

972
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,559
time and place where he realizes if he just walks

973
00:53:52,599 --> 00:53:55,840
down the block he could go, he might maybe be

974
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:00,480
able to see his father, who he never really knew

975
00:54:00,519 --> 00:54:04,239
particularly well because his father was a raging alcoholic and

976
00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:08,320
died when this character was pretty young. And so he

977
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,960
goes into the bar and he sees him, he sees

978
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:15,199
his dad. When you know this character Ray goes in,

979
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,360
he would have been like, I don't know, eight years

980
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,639
old or something at this time. He goes in and

981
00:54:19,679 --> 00:54:21,920
he sees his father and he tries to have this

982
00:54:22,039 --> 00:54:25,679
like heartfelt connection, or at least that's how he describes it,

983
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,280
and his father does not react to it particularly well,

984
00:54:31,159 --> 00:54:34,440
and his father actually tries to kill him because it's

985
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,960
just some strange, weird dude frankly getting kind of gay

986
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:41,360
with him. That's kind of how his father sees it.

987
00:54:43,119 --> 00:54:46,400
So yeah, yeah, I don't know if you want to

988
00:54:47,199 --> 00:54:49,920
want something more there, I mean, that's fundamentally what happens.

989
00:54:51,639 --> 00:54:55,360
I think For me, it got me. This book did

990
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:59,559
sort of thematically become about fathers in a certain way,

991
00:54:59,559 --> 00:55:02,719
mostly because it's you know, four men, and the father

992
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,760
son relationship is a couple of them are fathers, and

993
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,599
that father son relationship is always sort of interesting to me,

994
00:55:09,039 --> 00:55:13,880
partially for by, you know, biographical reasons to be honest,

995
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:20,039
but you know that's there is this there, there's a

996
00:55:20,559 --> 00:55:24,280
this sort of tearful reunion where everything is now fine.

997
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,519
Doesn't Sometimes it works in real life, I suppose, but

998
00:55:28,559 --> 00:55:32,039
I kind of, I guess, wanted to like not allow

999
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:36,119
that to happen, if that makes sense, because again, I'm

1000
00:55:36,119 --> 00:55:39,119
trying to create these sort of layers of claustrophobia right

1001
00:55:39,159 --> 00:55:43,039
where it's like, yeah, claustrophobia physically, but psychologically and intellectually

1002
00:55:43,119 --> 00:55:50,480
and ultimately like cosmological claustrophobia. And in that interaction with

1003
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,119
him and his father, I mean this character, I think

1004
00:55:53,159 --> 00:55:56,440
partially what he realizes is like there is no way

1005
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:01,199
to actually escape his life. There's there own the knot

1006
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,599
for him in particular, the knot can only really get tighter,

1007
00:56:04,639 --> 00:56:08,159
and any attempts to like fix it or something doesn't

1008
00:56:08,559 --> 00:56:10,679
seem like it's going to work, or at least doesn't

1009
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:13,519
he at least he doesn't see how how it could work.

1010
00:56:13,559 --> 00:56:15,480
That the kind of the knots only Yeah, it's one

1011
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,320
of those knots, like the more you try to untie it,

1012
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,400
it just gets tighter and tighter and tighter. I think

1013
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,360
that's how he begins, and he always saw his life,

1014
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,920
but he certainly sees it that way at that point.

1015
00:56:26,639 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 1: So we have successfully gotten almost a time without really

1016
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:32,679
telling anyone what happens in this book.

1017
00:56:32,679 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we picked I think, yeah,

1018
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:38,800
it's yeah yeah, but.

1019
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,039
Speaker 1: The ending and I won't really get any of the

1020
00:56:42,079 --> 00:56:49,320
details to it. But there's a couple interesting parts. Right one,

1021
00:56:49,639 --> 00:56:53,199
Jim starts the book, he actually, you know, once things

1022
00:56:53,199 --> 00:56:56,639
are as back to normal as they'll get. But also

1023
00:56:57,559 --> 00:57:02,639
he is carried. This is sort of another recurring item

1024
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:06,280
throughout the whole book, right the gun. You know, one

1025
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,599
of the men has a gun. Jim's given it. Initially, he's,

1026
00:57:09,639 --> 00:57:11,800
of course, you know, very hesitant. He doesn't like it,

1027
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:13,360
he doesn't know how to use it.

1028
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 3: Right But when he's.

1029
00:57:14,679 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: Back, there's sort of this interesting moment where he's back home.

1030
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:22,960
He can see his wife and daughter again he started

1031
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:27,480
on this book, but he sees in the distance another

1032
00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:31,199
version of him should have coming, and he reaches into

1033
00:57:31,239 --> 00:57:35,199
the desk and grabs the gun. So there are a

1034
00:57:35,239 --> 00:57:39,000
couple implications of that, right one, There are more of

1035
00:57:39,079 --> 00:57:42,480
him running around. He's been to other realities and you know,

1036
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,719
seeing himself or seeing the memory of himself at the

1037
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,920
very least, which one brings up the question of has

1038
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:51,000
he really escaped?

1039
00:57:51,519 --> 00:57:51,679
Speaker 2: Right?

1040
00:57:52,039 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 1: And also we see, you know, this kind of like

1041
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,159
final culmination of this agency, right, like I will not

1042
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,679
let this be taken away from me. So I think

1043
00:58:00,679 --> 00:58:04,079
that's a very a very poignant note to end on

1044
00:58:04,159 --> 00:58:05,679
for a couple different reasons.

1045
00:58:08,159 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I hope so I liked it.

1046
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:12,440
When I came up with it, I was pretty stoked.

1047
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:12,880
I'll tell you that.

1048
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we're coming up on time. Is there anything

1049
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,840
you want to say before we go to plugs?

1050
00:58:23,199 --> 00:58:25,079
Speaker 3: No, I mean I don't think so. I you know,

1051
00:58:25,239 --> 00:58:28,519
for people who it's so true, I really appreciate. This

1052
00:58:28,599 --> 00:58:30,840
is the like the most in depth conversation I've had

1053
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,519
about the book, and so I really really do appreciate that.

1054
00:58:33,599 --> 00:58:36,280
I mean, I think for people who haven't encountered it,

1055
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,400
it's it's difficult. And this isn't me trying to just

1056
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,119
sort of puff myself up. I think it is a

1057
00:58:41,119 --> 00:58:43,360
difficult book to like get a grasp of, like what

1058
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:48,679
the heck it is. The cover is like intentionally super pulpy,

1059
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,239
like we made it so it looks like something out

1060
00:58:51,239 --> 00:58:53,079
of the seventies that you would get off the dime

1061
00:58:53,159 --> 00:58:56,320
store rack that was like on purpose. Some of the

1062
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,440
aspects of it, the story are quite pulpy, but I think,

1063
00:59:00,599 --> 00:59:02,800
I think if that sort of thing appeals to you,

1064
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,760
you'll probably like it. And I think if you, I think,

1065
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,360
if something a little bit more I don't know what

1066
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,760
you were to use, a little bit more literary appeals

1067
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,199
to you, I think you'll find that there as well.

1068
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,039
So so yeah, I guess if if you like, if

1069
00:59:19,079 --> 00:59:23,159
you like pulpy adventure stories, listen to that part of

1070
00:59:23,199 --> 00:59:28,280
the promo, and if you like you know, uh, psychological,

1071
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,280
cerebral literary stuff, listen to that part of the promo.

1072
00:59:31,639 --> 00:59:34,079
And I think I think both of those audiences will

1073
00:59:34,119 --> 00:59:36,559
find something that's fun in there well.

1074
00:59:36,599 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: And also, you know, listeners you're used to my book reviews.

1075
00:59:41,599 --> 00:59:44,079
Right when I bring a guy on, uh, I very

1076
00:59:44,079 --> 00:59:48,320
deliberately don't tell you too much, right, there's a lot

1077
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,400
that we didn't get into, like really quite a bit.

1078
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,199
So there is more to you know, pull out and

1079
00:59:54,199 --> 00:59:56,400
pick at and discover, Like you can listen to this

1080
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,039
whole thing, and you know, you may have certain things

1081
00:59:59,079 --> 01:00:02,880
spoiled as much as spoilers matter for adults. But yeah,

1082
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,519
there's a lot of meat on that bone. Buy this book.

1083
01:00:05,639 --> 01:00:10,039
It's quite good, as you'll find out, Brad. Once I've

1084
01:00:10,039 --> 01:00:13,280
read a book, I'll be citing it for months. It'll

1085
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,519
come up again. But I like this book quite a bit.

1086
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,559
You should listen to it. And then, obviously, you know

1087
01:00:18,639 --> 01:00:21,880
Brad's work elsewhere is worth your time. Both of those

1088
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:24,719
will be linked obviously, other than you know, the book

1089
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:26,480
and your podcast. Where can people find you?

1090
01:00:26,519 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 3: Man? Yeah, I'm probably most active on Twitter, that's just Brad,

1091
01:00:31,519 --> 01:00:34,960
Kelly one E and Kelly. I got on there early

1092
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:36,840
and so I got like my just my name, which

1093
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,599
is kind of cool. And then I'm also pretty active

1094
01:00:39,599 --> 01:00:43,880
on substack Brad kellyesqu dot substack dot com podcast you

1095
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,079
can find wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can

1096
01:00:46,159 --> 01:00:50,400
just go to the website madmethodpod dot com. Yeah, yeah,

1097
01:00:50,519 --> 01:00:53,599
I'm pretty easy. I'm pretty easy to track down. So yeah,

1098
01:00:53,679 --> 01:00:56,719
check out Method Madness. I drop in episodes every week,

1099
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,079
so there's constantly something coming at you and if you

1100
01:00:59,159 --> 01:01:00,960
don't like this week's episode, just wait a week.

1101
01:01:02,719 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 1: Well, sure thing man. Obviously that will be down in

1102
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,679
the description. As far as my stuff Jay Burdon Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

1103
01:01:08,719 --> 01:01:10,960
anywhere you want to listen to podcasts. This is what

1104
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,960
I do now. I am, as I so eloquently said earlier,

1105
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,360
a professional internet person. If you want to support me,

1106
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:19,960
you get the episodes early in ad free. It's really

1107
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:21,800
not half bad. The price, I think it comes out

1108
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,239
to nineteen cents an hour right on the premium feed.

1109
01:01:25,599 --> 01:01:28,199
No ads is also a benefit. But I can't thank

1110
01:01:28,199 --> 01:01:30,599
you guys enough. This is how I support myself, so

1111
01:01:30,639 --> 01:01:32,960
your support means the world. Also check out our sponsor

1112
01:01:33,039 --> 01:01:36,079
Axios Remote Fitness Coaching. I actually I normally say I

1113
01:01:36,159 --> 01:01:38,119
use their product four or five days a week, which

1114
01:01:38,159 --> 01:01:40,760
is true. But we have like eight inches of ice

1115
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,599
here and it's the South, and so life has just

1116
01:01:43,679 --> 01:01:47,119
screeched to a halt. So I haven't been using JD's product,

1117
01:01:47,119 --> 01:01:51,039
but I will when I can actually drive again. But yeah, Brad, thanks,

1118
01:01:51,079 --> 01:01:51,800
this was a ton of fun.

1119
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,159
Speaker 3: Man. Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate it, and it's

1120
01:01:54,199 --> 01:01:54,679
good to meet you.

1121
01:01:55,559 --> 01:01:57,599
Speaker 1: To everyone at home, keep your head up. I can't

1122
01:01:57,639 --> 01:01:58,159
last forever.

1123
01:01:58,239 --> 01:02:21,639
Speaker 2: Good night.

1124
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:32,719
Speaker 3: Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret.

1125
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:33,519
It doesn't have to be.

1126
01:02:33,599 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: Let me point something out you're listening to a podcast

1127
01:02:36,079 --> 01:02:37,039
right now, and it's great.

1128
01:02:37,239 --> 01:02:39,159
Speaker 3: You love the host, you seek it out and download it.

1129
01:02:39,199 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 1: You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even

1130
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:45,480
going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion.

1131
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:48,559
Speaker 3: And this is a podcast ad? Did I get your attention?

1132
01:02:49,079 --> 01:02:52,440
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1134
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Speaker 3: With libsynads, go to libsynads dot com. That's l I

1138
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B s y n ads dot com today