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We're prohibited by long 20 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:53.840 eight team plus terms and conditions applag see website for details. 21 00:00:55.000 --> 00:01:07.480 Lock Hope Radio, you are now listening to True Murder, 22 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:11.319 the most shocking killers in true crime history and the 23 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:12.920 authors that have written about them. 24 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:20.840 Gasey Bundy Stahmer, The Nightstalker Dck. Every week, another fascinating 25 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:24.120 author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in 26 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:28.680 true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and 27 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:30.560 author Dan Zupansky. 28 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:44.519 Good Evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 29 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:47.799 program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime 30 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:54.519 history and the authors that have written about them. In 31 00:01:54.560 --> 00:02:01.200 September nineteen eighty nine, is a natural. By all appearances, 32 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:04.280 twenty nine year old Wesley Allen Dodd was the perfect 33 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:09.159 all American boy, model, high school student, camp counselor, and 34 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:14.199 US Navy enlistee. But behind his mask of normalcy lurked 35 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:18.039 a predatory sex fiend with a seventeen year history of 36 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:22.960 appalling acts of molestation and violence. Children were his victims, 37 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:27.599 and the parks of the Pacific Northwest his personal hunting grounds. 38 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:32.080 In September nineteen eighty nine, his unnatural desires had driven 39 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:36.479 him past simple satisfaction to abduct, torture, and kill two 40 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:40.919 young boys in Vancouver, Washington. Dodd killed a third innocent 41 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:44.960 victim only weeks later near Portland, Oregon, but only when 42 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:46.800 he was caught trying to kidnap a child from a 43 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:50.039 local movie theater. Was he finally taken into custody by police, 44 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:53.159 confessing to these heinous murders. He was convicted on all 45 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:58.479 three counts and sentenced to death. The book that we 46 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:02.319 are dealing with to see profiling this evening is Driven 47 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:06.439 to Kill, the terrifying true account of sex killer Wesley 48 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:11.159 Allan Dodd, with my special guest, journalist and best selling 49 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:13.400 true crime author, Gary C. 50 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:13.840 King. 51 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:15.800 Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to 52 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:16.400 this interview. 53 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:17.360 Gary C. 54 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:17.800 King. 55 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:21.400 Hi, Dan, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having 56 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:21.719 me on. 57 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.759 Thank you very much. It's been a while since I 58 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:29.159 tempted to have you on and I'm very happy and 59 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.039 I'm sure our audience will enjoy the interview this evening. 60 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:39.560 You're one of the more important true crime authors today, 61 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:42.800 and you're past with some of the incredible stories and 62 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:44.639 some of the incredible books, and we'll talk about that 63 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:48.080 a little bit later, but let's get to this particular 64 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:53.159 story now. You have a you've been in the true 65 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:56.919 crime business for thirty two years, but specifically with this 66 00:03:56.960 --> 00:04:02.240 book Driven to Kill, about this incredible killer, Wesley Allen Dodd. 67 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.759 What was it, how, what were the circumstances that came 68 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:12.719 about that you felt compelled or were drawn to this story, 69 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:15.479 or how did you come to write Driven to Kill 70 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:18.480 about Wesley Allen dodd Well. 71 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:22.120 At the time, I was writing for the Detective magazines 72 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:26.000 and I had written a piece I believe it was 73 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:31.800 for True Detective, and that's what initially what my appetite, 74 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:35.639 so to speak, for this particular story, and I saw 75 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:38.439 it as something that really needed to be told, something 76 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:43.160 that parents needed to be aware of. And my editor 77 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:47.439 at True Detective also thought that that should be the case. 78 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:52.720 So she introduced me to an editor at Pinnacle Books 79 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:57.759 named Paul Dennis, one of the best true crime editors 80 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:02.720 I've ever dealt with, and he immediately wanted to do 81 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:07.480 a book on this particular case. And that that's really 82 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:10.639 how it came about. It started with a short nonfiction 83 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:13.639 story and developed into a book over a period of 84 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:16.360 a few months. 85 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:19.079 We've got to give the credit to though, I've got 86 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:22.240 to say that Pinnacle is the kind of the independent publisher, 87 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.600 the kind of publisher period that doesn't shy away from 88 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:29.199 some of the stories that even some real big true crime, 89 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:33.959 the biggest true crime imprints kind of shy away from 90 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:35.120 Don't you agree with that? 91 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:40.160 Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I've published several books with them, 92 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:44.519 you know, over the over the years, but this was, 93 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:47.040 I believe, this was my first one that I had 94 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:52.120 published with Pinnacle, and you know, everybody you know had 95 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:56.439 misgivings about it. I mean, just the subject matter alone, yeah, 96 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.920 is horrific. But I had decided early on that I 97 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:04.319 wanted to write a book that would really raise awareness 98 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:10.399 to people like dot sexual predators who basically kept parents 99 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:14.079 as hostages, you know, whenever they're they're committing their crimes. 100 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:17.920 And when he was doing his thing, nobody knew who 101 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:19.680 was doing and we, you know, we didn't know if 102 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.680 he was gonna suddenly switch and go after girls, whether 103 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:26.560 it was strictly going to be boys, And it really 104 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:29.319 didn't matter because you know, kids are kids, and no 105 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:32.600 parent wants to see their kids become a victim. And 106 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.800 I myself was a parent, I am a parent, and 107 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:41.120 my kids were small at the time, and this was 108 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:44.680 so disturbing. We wouldn't even let our kids play outside 109 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:49.519 unattended until after, you know, he was apprehended and the 110 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:54.079 killing stopped. So I decided early on this had to 111 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:57.439 be a book that was geared toward raising awareness, at 112 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:02.480 least in parents' minds, that they can't be vigilant enough 113 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:07.399 over their child's safety. And I did it in a 114 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:11.279 form of shock treatment. For lack of a better way 115 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:16.040 to say it, I guess. And the book is very 116 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:18.240 disturbing the way that I wrote it, and it was 117 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:23.120 intentionally made to be disturbing, because you can't sugarcoat stuff 118 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:26.120 like this. It has to be told the way it is, 119 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:31.480 and that's exactly what I did. And you know, I've 120 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:34.720 been thanked over the years from parents who you know, 121 00:07:34.759 --> 00:07:38.199 are happy about it. I've been put down, if you will, 122 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.240 by other parents who said that I've gone too far 123 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:46.639 with it. Personally, I think I could have went farther, 124 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.079 but I did tone it down a bit, but I 125 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:50.040 didn't sugarcoat it. 126 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:53.839 Yeah, I got to say that you really handle this well, 127 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:56.600 and it seemed that you didn't really have much of 128 00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:00.800 a backglass. There's always somebody that has opinions about true 129 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.800 crime authors, and you know that they just have a 130 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:06.920 distaste for a period, so you never can really satisfy 131 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:10.319 those people. But I really thought this was very uncompromising 132 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:12.480 and unflinching and a lot of people, again, a lot 133 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:15.360 of publishers might say, well, shouldn't have to include that, 134 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:18.199 but I think it's very important that you did. And 135 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:20.639 like I said, I think I'm appreciative, and I think 136 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:23.319 most readers would be appreciative of giving us the whole 137 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:27.560 truth and nothing but the truth. Now getting to that, 138 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:32.320 this very again, very very graphic and shocking book, and 139 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:36.240 especially when you consider that we're talking about small children, 140 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:40.639 we're talking torture, and we're talking about this person being very, 141 00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:43.639 very very candid. So this is an amazing portrait of 142 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:48.879 a killer. Definitely. Now, maybe to introduce our audience to 143 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:53.840 how this book is written much different than most books 144 00:08:54.600 --> 00:09:00.240 in that the incredible access you had to all the information, 145 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.679 but also the killer of themselves again being very very candid, 146 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:09.080 and so that there's interviews of the killer, there's interviews 147 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:12.759 from police. There is the diary, and we'll talk about 148 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:18.679 that right away because that's very important. But you really 149 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:23.120 is because of the access, because of the killer wanting 150 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:25.919 all of this information to be known and willing to 151 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:30.200 be interviewed, and also this diary where he kept documentation. 152 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:36.840 So with this incredible access, we also have and this 153 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:41.320 candidacy from this killer. We have a really good account, 154 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:46.039 which is maybe unusual, what is unusual for to have 155 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:49.000 and you know that as an author, So tell us 156 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:53.759 from the incredible information you have his earliest life and 157 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:55.360 his account of his. 158 00:09:55.399 --> 00:10:02.000 Earliest life, well, much of his uh earliest life was 159 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:04.960 accounted to me, not only by him, but in the 160 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:08.759 pages of his diary. We started calling it his diary 161 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:12.480 of death, because that's really what it is. But he 162 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:16.840 started out at a very young age experimenting sexually with 163 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:22.320 you know, relatives, cousins and so forth, and uh young children, uh, 164 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:25.200 a little bit younger than himself. And and a lot 165 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:27.799 of it had to do with uh, you know, touching 166 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:31.519 and you know, exposing and this sort of thing. And 167 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.960 that's that's really his earliest beginnings. And uh he was 168 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:38.799 he was caught a few times, and you know, his 169 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:41.480 hands were slapped. But as he got older, as he 170 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:46.519 developed into an adolescent, he began uh uh doing these 171 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.600 things in front of school children, uh, exposing himself and masturbating, 172 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:54.120 uh in front of children as they walked past his 173 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:59.639 house or his apartment. And that was a fairly short period. 174 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:01.559 It was because when the police. 175 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:05.159 Came that pretty much shut him down. He he stopped 176 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.159 doing that, he realized that he couldn't do it from 177 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:08.679 the comfort of his home, that he had to go 178 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:12.480 out and start trolling the city streets and parks and playgrounds, 179 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:17.240 et cetera, to find you know, willing or unwilling depending 180 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:22.039 on the caves. Uh, victims, and and uh this is. 181 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:22.559 What he did. 182 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:28.759 And you know, in his earliest days, he was brought 183 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:33.039 brought in and questioned and about various sex crimes, most 184 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:36.240 of them relatively minor compared to the things that he 185 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:42.639 ended up ultimately doing. And he was basically had his 186 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:47.879 hand slapped. He he was you know, he received psychological counseling, 187 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.480 but never finished any of it. He was never sentenced 188 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:58.200 to any difficult time. Uh. He was always to sort 189 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:00.639 of let go, or he slipped through what I like 190 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.000 to say, he slipped through the cracks of the system. 191 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:06.720 Perhaps at the time people really didn't know how to 192 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.960 deal with him. I don't know. But the point is 193 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.000 that I'm trying to make is he was never punished 194 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:16.879 for his earliest crimes, and he was pretty much allowed 195 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:21.840 to continue until he, you know, started committing the ultimate 196 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:22.759 crime of murder. 197 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:27.679 Can we talk about his diary and the extensive interviews 198 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:33.759 that he gave to various people, various authorities. It seems 199 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:38.039 incredible in your book that he talks about every detail 200 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:44.240 of it seems rejection from and he felt intimidated from women. 201 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:47.600 There was a rejection. He'd pulled his pats down. Some 202 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:51.200 of the earliest things he had done with neighborhood boys 203 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:57.639 was pulling his pats down and exposing his venus. It basically, 204 00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:00.440 in sort of all you can get from the beginning 205 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:05.279 is that he had issues with his sexual orientation or identity. 206 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:10.120 He may have had this rejection, he may have felt humiliated, 207 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:15.320 he might have had issues about his manhood in various aspects. 208 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.080 But then he jumps to what we would think is 209 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:26.000 more deviant things like sticking safety pins in his penis 210 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:31.559 in so he was experimenting with some things. It is 211 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:39.320 a fairly slow evolution from flashing to molestation. So we're 212 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:41.679 talking about nineteen seventy five, and like you say that, 213 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:46.759 each time that he is either accused or questioned by police, 214 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.919 he just seems to get the benefit of the doubt, 215 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:55.440 and no one either recognizes or both recognizes and then 216 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:59.720 punishes him. But we're talking about that in this diary. 217 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:05.399 Seems curious to me that he seems to rationalize his behavior, 218 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:10.240 his making this leap to fantasizingable molestation and abduction, but 219 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.600 he offers no real rationale for what happened other than 220 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.799 his parents were arguing and he had these some of 221 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:18.279 the same things that happen to most people. 222 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:22.759 I would think, Yeah, of course, a lot of people 223 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:25.240 have been through the same types of things that he 224 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:28.600 had been through, and they didn't go on and do 225 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.919 the things that he did. But I tried to drag 226 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.159 out of him during my interviews with him his sexual orientation, 227 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.960 and he didn't really want to talk about it. I 228 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:43.039 had the sense that they didn't really like women a 229 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:45.960 whole lot. He did admit to me that he had 230 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:50.200 dated one woman, but he wouldn't go into detail about it. 231 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:55.440 He's very evasive, and that's really all I could find 232 00:14:55.480 --> 00:15:00.279 out from him, you know, about any kind of uh 233 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:06.799 orientation with the opposite sex. So but uh, yeah, he 234 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:12.000 just uh, he just went into really great detail, uh 235 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:14.519 in his diary. He when he when he talked to me, 236 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:16.639 he didn't really blame others too much. 237 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:17.120 For what he did. 238 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:21.159 He he talked mostly about how, uh this was a 239 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:23.639 compulsion that he had and that he couldn't stop and 240 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:27.879 the only way he could stop was to die. I 241 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:29.440 don't I don't know what you can take from that, 242 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:35.399 but uh, he he definitely fits the mold if your 243 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:42.080 typical every day sex offender who usually you know, isn't 244 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:48.679 helped with treatment, Some are, most aren't. But you know, 245 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.440 it's really hard, it's really hard to pin down anything 246 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:57.519 that might have contributed to this uh sickness, if you will, 247 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:02.399 from lack of better better term, that caused him to progress, 248 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:03.360 you know, to murder. 249 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:10.399 Anyway, Now he has these murderous fantasies. So part of 250 00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:15.399 the fantasy is that he documents his feelings and his plans. 251 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.200 So what are some of the plans that he has 252 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.279 and at what point does he make this conscious decision 253 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:27.200 to probably target boys? And why is that other than 254 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:29.480 his sexual orientation? Is there another reason as well? 255 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:36.600 I don't recall there being another or particular reason why 256 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:42.000 he targeted boys. Perhaps, you know, it seems like something 257 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:45.080 I recall. I recall that he thought it was easier 258 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:52.159 to talk with boys, but he had extensive plans and 259 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:57.159 even before he attacked the near brothers in David Douglas Park. 260 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:02.200 He had set out very extensive plans on how he 261 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:05.640 was going to you know, carry this out. And it 262 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:07.799 was over a period of a couple of days where 263 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:12.000 he made plans to go out and stalk and and 264 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:14.960 uh regret l you know, uh check the place out 265 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:19.480 and and really it was like a reconnaissance mission where 266 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:23.720 he he packed his lunch and and uh went out 267 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:28.359 for the day and if he came out with a victim, great, 268 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:30.400 If not, then he would go back the next day. 269 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:32.559 And he kept it was a kind of like a 270 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:35.039 trial and error that he went through at first. 271 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:37.000 Uh. 272 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:40.039 And I suppose part of that was building up his 273 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:43.599 nerve to a certain degree to to actually, you know, 274 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:48.079 make an abduction and and uh to kill someone. 275 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:49.480 But uh, he he. 276 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:52.559 Was very extensive in his planning. He had lots of 277 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:59.480 future plans his uh, his diary detailed a crudely made 278 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.160 torch wrack that he had actually constructed, in which I 279 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:06.880 included a picture of in the book that he you know, 280 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:12.599 hoped to tie his victims down on and commit surgeries 281 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:17.680 on them while they were alive, you know, unconscious, things 282 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:21.519 such as you know, removing their their their penis or 283 00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:28.319 their testicles. It was just it's pretty horrendous. 284 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:34.720 Yeah, he wanted to experiment with them and and also 285 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:38.440 have sex with them after they had they were dead, 286 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:43.039 so in necrophilia. 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Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 310 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:50.119 We talked about how we evaded any kind of serious 311 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.799 punishment from authorities, but at one point he did get 312 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:58.279 a ten year sentence, and just to illustrate how unfortunate 313 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:00.359 he wasn't unfortunate the rest of is this is society 314 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.039 and his victims were. He served only four months of 315 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:08.920 that ten year sentence. And it seems like those constant 316 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:12.000 times that he spent one hundred and eighteen days in prison, 317 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:15.400 and at some point he made that conscious effort to 318 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:18.039 change the way he did things and be more serious 319 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:21.240 about anyone telling authorities because he had been reported to 320 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:22.680 authorities numerous times. 321 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:24.039 Right. 322 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.519 Yeah, Now we also goted to talk about he did 323 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.720 move some three times, because we talk about in your 324 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:36.200 book that he was where was it in Washington he 325 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:45.799 was born? Sorry, hopefully I don't mispronounce this topping' Topinish Toppinish, Washington, 326 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:49.079 and then he later moved to Seattle and then later 327 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:51.359 to Vancouver, Washington. 328 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.720 Yeah, the film's about right, Yeah. 329 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:57.559 Yeah, Now, tell us a little bit about because we 330 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:00.039 just skipped over this. Tell us about his stint in 331 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.400 the navy, because that it seems interesting that he give 332 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.400 us the reason why he even stated himself why he 333 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:11.200 wanted to enlist in the navy, and how he did 334 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:11.759 in the navy. 335 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:18.319 What was his experience, like, well, I don't remember anything 336 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:21.319 particularly negative. In fact, I don't remember a whole lot 337 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:26.599 about that aspect of his life. He didn't talk about 338 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:29.359 it a whole lot. And you know, God, this has 339 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:33.519 been twenty years ago. You've recently read the book. 340 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:38.200 Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. What I wanted to 341 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.519 point out is very interesting. Again, a lot of people think, well, 342 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.160 serial killers are very, very intelligent, but for the most part, 343 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:50.440 they aren't. And this guy was the at least in 344 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:54.319 military terms. He was a very serious military candidate. He 345 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:56.960 went into the Navy and was the top of the 346 00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.480 top ten percent of his class, and then they put 347 00:21:59.559 --> 00:22:03.200 him on sub submarine duty. But of course he was 348 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:10.160 discharged for decent taking attempting indecent liberties, but again not 349 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:13.160 really punished and not seemed to be recognized for the 350 00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:16.119 you know, they recommended it to get counseled or counseling. 351 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:19.279 So it seemed all along the way there if there 352 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.440 really is a cautionary tale on how many times somebody 353 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.640 could have intervened and should have intervened, because there seems 354 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:28.960 to be gaps on exactly why he only did four 355 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:31.839 months out of ten years, and there seems to be 356 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:34.240 some of these very very strong questions. 357 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.519 And that's one of the really sad things about this 358 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.119 case is the fact that intervention, you know, was not 359 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:48.279 efficiently effective. Any time that intervention did take place, nothing happened. 360 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:54.119 And and like you say, he was a bright fellow, 361 00:22:54.160 --> 00:23:01.319 he was intelligent, he I want to say clever more 362 00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:05.599 than anything. He knew how to manipulate people and he 363 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:08.799 learned that, I think at a pretty young age to 364 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.440 be able to get what he wants. As far as 365 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:16.480 his navy experience goes, it seems like he was honorably 366 00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:20.079 discharged or I can't remember now, it's just been so long. 367 00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:23.640 Do you remember what he was? 368 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:25.839 No, he was, it was it was. It didn't say 369 00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:30.119 dishonorably dishonorably discharged. But it was he was discharged and 370 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:34.279 he was imprisoned for seventeen days, and it was attempting 371 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:37.440 in decent liberties. So it was some he was molesting 372 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:39.359 as soon as he got to the to the camp, 373 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:44.319 and then there was a couple attempts and then he 374 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:48.279 was So everybody was on to this guy shortly, and 375 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:51.599 that was part of the moves as well, because it 376 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.160 seemed to want a new, new, you know, a fresh start. 377 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:56.839 But then it all really was was that he was 378 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:00.559 refining his fantasies and making it more serious. That uh, 379 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.519 no one was gonna live to tell the tale. 380 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:09.440 Yeah that that uh that says it in a nutshell, 381 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:14.039 uh really, because that's that's how he ultimately became. And 382 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:16.119 he saw that as a way, I guess, uh, a 383 00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:19.759 way of preservation so that he could continue doing what 384 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:23.359 he enjoyed doing best, and that is, you know, molesting 385 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:26.599 and killing little boys. Those were his words to me, 386 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:29.160 you know, he it's what he enjoyed doing, that's what 387 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:35.759 he lived for. M and it it just it's sad. 388 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.160 What's really sad, you know. I meant the fathers of 389 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:39.119 the boys. 390 00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:40.599 Uh, the vimes that he murdered. 391 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:43.480 And and you know, when you look into their eyes 392 00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:47.799 and you see the the depth of their their their 393 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.759 their hurt and their sadness and the emptiness that's left 394 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:56.480 behind is just I it's an awful, awful feeling. And 395 00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:01.319 yet these these gentlemen, you know, were supportive enough of 396 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:04.640 me and what I was doing to actually appear on 397 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:10.680 TV with me local talk show. And despite the fact 398 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:14.920 that you know, they had to look at Wesley Allen 399 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.559 Dodd's picture on the front of the book every time 400 00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:23.400 they went to the grocery checkout stand. It's just awful. 401 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:26.440