Speaker 1: Broadcasting from sunny and dry West Michigan and Studio A
Speaker 1: here at proven winners Color Choice Shrubs. It's time for
Speaker 1: the Gardening Simplified Show with Stacy, Hervella me Rick weisst
Speaker 1: and our engineer and producer Adrianna Robinson. Well, we're going
Speaker 1: to have a field day today. We're going to talk
Speaker 1: about meadows and I'll start it off with a quote
Speaker 1: and on the whole enormous prairie, there was no sign
Speaker 1: that any other human being had ever been there, Laura
Speaker 1: Ingalls Wilder little house on the prairie. But you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of interest in meadow gardening right now.
Speaker 1: There's no single definition of a meadow garden. A meadow
Speaker 1: is about seasonal highlights, and we're seeing a trend toward
Speaker 1: the modern medal to enjoy unbridled nature right there on
Speaker 1: your own landscape, your own yard. Also known as a
Speaker 1: stylized metal they're designed to be a more manageable scale
Speaker 1: of a metal and we get the nature, the movement,
Speaker 1: the color, maybe even minimalism, and of course pollinators, all
Speaker 1: the great things that come along with a metal landscape.
Speaker 1: For me, Stacy, I'm most excited about the fact that
Speaker 1: most metal landscapes have lots and lots of grasses.
Speaker 2: I think grasses probably are one of the things that
Speaker 2: people most associate with meadows, but I think that the
Speaker 2: romance and the reason that people really want to grow
Speaker 2: or have their own meadow is the flowers. And I
Speaker 2: think a lot of this was really kind of popularized
Speaker 2: by someone we've spoken about quite a bit over the
Speaker 2: past couple weeks in our series on American gardens, and
Speaker 2: that's Pete Dudolph. Absolutely, you know, Pete's planting style is
Speaker 2: very metal like, and it really contrasts He was not
Speaker 2: the first to do this, right. This can go back
Speaker 2: to Omi and Ven Sweden in the nineteen nineties who
Speaker 2: were kind of doing these mass perennial plantings with a
Speaker 2: lot of ornamental grasses, and those were kind of starting
Speaker 2: to evolve to the metal look. But this really contrasts
Speaker 2: with kind of like the classic English border where everything
Speaker 2: is bun and toughet and kind of relegated to its
Speaker 2: own little neat spot and everything just takes up its
Speaker 2: own space, whereas the meadow and this new modern, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of perennial, new perennialist planting is a lot of
Speaker 2: things mixed together, as Udolph calls it, the matrix. So
Speaker 2: it's really shifting from where everything is tidy and contained
Speaker 2: to a sort of exuberant celebration of where everything looks
Speaker 2: naturalistic even though and it's all interwoven and inter knitted,
Speaker 2: and you know, just makes this beautiful whole and it
Speaker 2: looks very natural and not man made. But it is
Speaker 2: actually deceptive. It is the I read about this in
Speaker 2: preparation for the show today. It is the paradox of effort.
Speaker 2: It actually takes a lot of effort to make something
Speaker 2: look that effortless exactly.
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad you brought that up, because it
Speaker 1: requires planning.
Speaker 2: It sure does.
Speaker 1: It requires planning. Modern metal gardening is the new frontier
Speaker 1: for many. The frontier is the front lawn, converting it
Speaker 1: over from a traditional lawn, and it may requires some
Speaker 1: neighbor negotiations or at least to make the neighbors say, well, say, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you a heads up here, we're
Speaker 1: going metal here. But it requires planning. It's not about
Speaker 1: going to some store and finding a can of metal
Speaker 1: mixed wildflowers and just chucking that out there.
Speaker 2: Oh, for the love of all that is holy in
Speaker 2: the garden. Do not do that. You know, we will
Speaker 2: definitely get to talking about seeds versus plants and all
Speaker 2: of that in a meadow. But the simple fact is
Speaker 2: that at your average garden center, garden store, feedstore, or whatever,
Speaker 2: a lot of those mixes that they are selling as
Speaker 2: metal mixes are full of horrible plants that will that
Speaker 2: are not native and will become very invasive and problematic.
Speaker 2: So or annuals or yeah, annuals, and they won't do
Speaker 2: anything for you year after year. So it is a
Speaker 2: place where you neverinitely need to do your research. And
Speaker 2: I think that really I would never want to be
Speaker 2: discouraging from anyone who wants to plant a meadow, but
Speaker 2: you do have to be realistic. As simple as it looks,
Speaker 2: it's not that way in reality.
Speaker 1: And that's because natural meatals have evolved over many years.
Speaker 1: They've adapted to environmental conditions, intricate associations of plants and nature.
Speaker 1: So you have to have a plan. Nature's plan will
Speaker 1: win out dominance, so you kind of go for go
Speaker 1: with the flow, and yet you have to make sure
Speaker 1: that you have a plan going in. I guess the
Speaker 1: lawn and sho of it is metal gardening is still gardening.
Speaker 2: It is very much still guardening. It's actually it's landscaping
Speaker 2: even you know, it's not simply gardening. It takes a
Speaker 2: lot of prep work and it takes a lot of
Speaker 2: patients to get there. And you know, we were talking
Speaker 2: about the Lury garden, and you know, you can see
Speaker 2: the pictures of the lury garden evolve from when it
Speaker 2: was planted until now, and that is a long process.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think one of the most important
Speaker 2: parts about well, about gardening in general, but especially about
Speaker 2: meadow gardening or native plant gardening in general. Uh, you
Speaker 2: are forced to be an editor, and if you are
Speaker 2: an editor, you need to know what you're looking to
Speaker 2: edit out. Yeah, and that it's a really important part
Speaker 2: of that because you have to control a lot of
Speaker 2: more aggressive plants that are going to naturally come into
Speaker 2: your meadow and make sure that they don't overtake it
Speaker 2: because that delicate you're trying to kind of maintain this delicate,
Speaker 2: esthetically driven balance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no question about that. Plan on plants in mass
Speaker 1: so to speak, drifts of plants, that's where the simplicity
Speaker 1: comes in. But that planning is super important because you
Speaker 1: want to design where it still feels loose and natural,
Speaker 1: but a lot of thought has gone into it. And
Speaker 1: you're so right about that also, Stacy, if it involves
Speaker 1: some invasive plants in short order, they're going to take over.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they'll come in anyway. That's why they're invasive plants.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean it's a lot of work. And
Speaker 2: you know, if we take a garden like the high
Speaker 2: Line or the Urry Garden to gardens that I think
Speaker 2: of Pete Udolph's that really are responsible for all of
Speaker 2: this interest in meadows, go ahead and go on to
Speaker 2: their websites and look at how many gardeners they have.
Speaker 2: It is not just a set it and forget it
Speaker 2: type of thing. Again, not trying to be discouraging, but
Speaker 2: it is always rather amazing that not only when we
Speaker 2: see those gardens that they look natural and effortless, but
Speaker 2: that when we're driving through country roads at this time
Speaker 2: of year and through the next, you know, all through
Speaker 2: August and September, when meadows are just at peak because
Speaker 2: beautiful celadego's blooming and the job hiweed and everything, and
Speaker 2: you just look at, oh, look at what an amazing
Speaker 2: job mother nature is doing. I could do that at
Speaker 2: home and just kind of let mother nature take over,
Speaker 2: And no, it doesn't work that way. Meadows are relatively
Speaker 2: low maintenance, lower maintenance than a lawn, but you also
Speaker 2: have to know what you're doing correct alon You don't
Speaker 2: need to really know what you're doing to maintain too
Speaker 2: much anyway.
Speaker 1: So the key aspect here is you don't need little
Speaker 1: house on the prairie. A modern meadow for your yard
Speaker 1: could be one hundred to two thousand square feet somewhere
Speaker 1: in that area where you've got a good manageable size
Speaker 1: to start. Because remember, one of the first competitors is
Speaker 1: you try to establish this garden is going to be
Speaker 1: the weeds, and if you don't take the right approach,
Speaker 1: the weeds can choke out the desirable plants. I recommend,
Speaker 1: by the way, and it's what I did in my
Speaker 1: front yard when all the lawn went out, a lot
Speaker 1: of grasses went in, but I used plugs. If you
Speaker 1: can get your hands on some plugs, that's a great
Speaker 1: way to start. A number of the panicoms, for example,
Speaker 1: or the loriope, or some of the plants that I
Speaker 1: put in were plugs, and it made it easy, but
Speaker 1: you have to prepare first and take care of some
Speaker 1: of the weeds. And that's why the timing of the
Speaker 1: show is great. Also because, in my opinion, August is
Speaker 1: a time to kill vegetation. September is a time to
Speaker 1: establish vegetation. And solarization is an option if you're looking
Speaker 1: to kill weed, seed and weeds so that when you
Speaker 1: start to put these plugs into the ground or establish
Speaker 1: these wildflowers or plants, they have a competitive edge against
Speaker 1: the weeds which are going to try to choke them
Speaker 1: out right.
Speaker 2: And you know it's not just weeds, it was your
Speaker 2: formerly desirable plants. Yes, because the lawn is one of
Speaker 2: the biggest, you know, things that you're going to have
Speaker 2: to fight against. To try to get a meadow established,
Speaker 2: you're going to need to completely kill that grass back.
Speaker 2: The general recommendation is to mow that down, completely scalp it.
Speaker 2: So do what you're not supposed to do to a
Speaker 2: regular lawn low as possible, mowing, scalp that thing down,
Speaker 2: get it stressed, get that sun beaten down on those crowns. Everything.
Speaker 2: We recommend anyone who doesn't want a nice looking land
Speaker 2: to do. And then some people will Yeah, even put
Speaker 2: plastic over that to try to make sure that all
Speaker 2: of that dies. So you do need a clean slate,
Speaker 2: but nature abhors a vacuum. So once you have that
Speaker 2: clean slate, whether you're starting with plugs or you're starting
Speaker 2: with seeds, and both are very viable ways. I do
Speaker 2: want to say, unless you have boatloads a dough, this
Speaker 2: is not starting a meadow is not the kind of
Speaker 2: project that you usually go.
Speaker 1: To your garden center for.
Speaker 2: We're all for shopping at your local garden center, but
Speaker 2: you will go broke trying to plant up a meadow
Speaker 2: out of one plus gallon perennials. You're going to be
Speaker 2: starting with seeds from a reputable native plant seed supplying
Speaker 2: meadow supplier that you know is creating custom mixes specifically
Speaker 2: for your conditions, or like you said, plugs.
Speaker 1: Plugs are a good way to go. And you're going
Speaker 1: to want to incorporate grasses. So the grass we're talking
Speaker 1: about killing is the traditional lawn type tough grass. Yes,
Speaker 1: the ornamental grasses that we're going to be using, or
Speaker 1: grasses within this metal are going to be similar to
Speaker 1: what pete odolph uses, blue stem or panicoms are great.
Speaker 1: He uses carl forrester. The calamagrossis type grasses.
Speaker 2: Probolis is another favorite of theirs, and I don't think
Speaker 2: I don't know that he uses nasilla anymore in the US.
Speaker 2: Are also known as stippa because that has become quite invasive.
Speaker 2: But it's just got such a beautiful soft texture, so
Speaker 2: that might be a no no in some places. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it's not as simple as just saying, oh, well, I
Speaker 2: happen to really like miscanthus. Misscanthus doesn't usually have a
Speaker 2: place in a metow garden because it's so structural correct correct,
Speaker 2: and so like imposing kind of in the landscape.
Speaker 1: But using those types of grasses is going to be
Speaker 1: very important. Why grasses They provide support and protection for
Speaker 1: tall flowers. They fill in spaces around wildflowers that otherwise
Speaker 1: would be occupied by weeds. They add color and texture
Speaker 1: to the landscape. They add movement to the landscape. They
Speaker 1: add winter interest to the landscape. They prevent soil erosion.
Speaker 1: They provide food and cover for wildlife. Can you tell
Speaker 1: I love grasses? Yes, And a meadow garden in many
Speaker 1: cases is going to involve maybe fifty percent of grasses.
Speaker 1: But of course that's an arguable point. So here we go.
Speaker 1: Grasses are part of a meadow, Limerick Today. A meadow
Speaker 1: is natural and logical. Establishment is economical. The logic is
Speaker 1: sound with benefits year round that are simply astronomical.
Speaker 2: That's a good one, thank you.
Speaker 1: I like it.
Speaker 2: Can't believe it's the first time you've maaded.
Speaker 1: Actually, I have some ground that is fallow, so I
Speaker 1: think I'll start a modern meadow, a simple connection to
Speaker 1: nature without all the nomenclature to view while I sip
Speaker 1: on a merlow see where I'm going. Get my drift
Speaker 1: swaths sizable, not short shrift and lots of grasses. They're
Speaker 1: not dull to me. The grass is half full. Sorry,
Speaker 1: Their wind driven sway is a lift. I'm looking forward
Speaker 1: to this topic. Let's dive in see what Stacy has
Speaker 1: in mind and plants on trial. That's next here on
Speaker 1: the Gardening Simplified.
Speaker 2: Show, beautify your home and community with proven winner's color
Speaker 2: choice shrubs with over three hundred and twenty five unique
Speaker 2: varieties to choose from. There's a flowering shrub or evergreen
Speaker 2: for every taste and every space. Just look for the
Speaker 2: distinctive white container your local garden Center or learn more
Speaker 2: at Proven Winner's Color Choice dot com. Greeting's gardening friends,
Speaker 2: and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show. We are
Speaker 2: talking all about meadows, and the reason that we waited
Speaker 2: all season long to do the menows show here in
Speaker 2: late July early August is because now it's the perfect
Speaker 2: time to start planning for a meadow. We didn't want
Speaker 2: to do this in spring and say, hey, hey, you
Speaker 2: got to wait till fall to work on your meadows.
Speaker 2: We wanted to do it closer to when you would
Speaker 2: actually be doing that work. So if it's been rolling
Speaker 2: around in your head and you've been looking for a sign,
Speaker 2: here it is. We'll get to a lot more about
Speaker 2: installing meadows and all of that later in the show,
Speaker 2: but for now, since it's been a while since we've
Speaker 2: done a Plants on Trial because we were devoting the
Speaker 2: last several weeks to our American Gardens series, let me
Speaker 2: just remind you that Plants on Trial is where we
Speaker 2: talk about one of the three hundred and fifty plus
Speaker 2: actually it's four hundred plus now Proven Winner's Color Choice
Speaker 2: shrubs or trees and kind of tell you why you
Speaker 2: might want to plant it. In the garden. Sure, and
Speaker 2: very often you know the theme, it's kind of more thematic, right,
Speaker 2: Like I'll give a bunch of different plants that kind
Speaker 2: of fit the theme of the show. Sometimes I'll just
Speaker 2: focus on one, and sometimes, you know, I have to
Speaker 2: really kind of dig deep into the brain to find
Speaker 2: a connection. And it's it's quite difficult with meadows because
Speaker 2: shrubs and meadows are mortal enemies, not really in a
Speaker 2: way that like they hate each other or they're bad
Speaker 2: for each other or anything like that, but the presence
Speaker 2: of shrubs in a meadow. And now we're talking about nature.
Speaker 2: We're not talking about gardening. We're talking about meadows in nature.
Speaker 2: Because all of this inspiration for that beautiful meadow, even
Speaker 2: for Pete Udolph and other designers who work in that style,
Speaker 2: did come from nature originally. They are trying to kind
Speaker 2: of replicate that and and tweak it so that it
Speaker 2: is more esthetically pleasing for humans. But meadows are a
Speaker 2: stage in ecological succession. And basically ecological succession, if you
Speaker 2: aren't familiar with this concept, is that within any given
Speaker 2: patch of earth whatever, like basically everything is kind of
Speaker 2: in an ever evolving state and basically what happens with
Speaker 2: meadows is that they are kind of the next step
Speaker 2: in old farmland. Very often that we do have natural meadows,
Speaker 2: of course in the prairies, are beautiful prairies in central
Speaker 2: North America are you know, a natural occurring kind of meadow.
Speaker 2: But very often the meadows that we see it here
Speaker 2: in West Michigan especially are evolving farmland. So when a
Speaker 2: shrub starts to suddenly appear in a meadow, it's actually
Speaker 2: a sign that that meadow is now transitioning into becoming
Speaker 2: a woodland instead of a primarily herbaceous plant meadow, because
Speaker 2: meadows are driven by herbaceous plants, plants that die back
Speaker 2: to their roots every year and don't have any kind
Speaker 2: of wood or anything like that standing.
Speaker 1: And that's a great point, Stacy, And so it makes
Speaker 1: a good point as we develop our modern meadows for
Speaker 1: our lawns, we're not necessarily looking for height. No, just
Speaker 1: like the planes, we're looking for that vista.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So you know how, So what I wanted
Speaker 2: to kind of talk about, instead of really just getting
Speaker 2: into a single plant, was talking about sort of the
Speaker 2: role that shrubs play in succession, including with meadows. Now
Speaker 2: as I was looking into this topic so that I
Speaker 2: could give you all correct information. I found something quite fascinating.
Speaker 2: So this phenomenon of ecological succession was first described by
Speaker 2: University of Chicago professor Henry Chandler Cowells in the eighteen nineties.
Speaker 2: So he was teaching ecology or whatever ecology was called,
Speaker 2: probably natural resources or something back then. And Chicago, of
Speaker 2: course is on Lake Michigan and very close to Indiana Dunes,
Speaker 2: which is a Indiana State Park as well as a
Speaker 2: National Lake Shore, I think is what it is. And
Speaker 2: as he was walking around Indiana Dunes, and as you
Speaker 2: can imagine, it was much different in the eighteen nineties
Speaker 2: than it is today, he was noticing that the dunes
Speaker 2: were full of old tree stumps, that it was itself
Speaker 2: a landscape sort of in flux, transitioning from something that
Speaker 2: had used to have been forests and was now starting
Speaker 2: to transition into something else. So all of this, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of foundational work in ecological succession was done right
Speaker 2: here on our own much loved and beautiful Lake Michigan.
Speaker 2: So how cool is that?
Speaker 1: I love it?
Speaker 2: Right, So basically you can still see this if you
Speaker 2: are you know, really I think probably. I can't speak
Speaker 2: for Wisconsin. I haven't explored the Wisconsin like Michigan shorelines
Speaker 2: too much, but I suspect it's the same. But certainly
Speaker 2: Indiana and all over here in West Michigan, where we
Speaker 2: are in the middle of the largest freshwater dune system
Speaker 2: in the world, you can actually see succession in action.
Speaker 2: And I'm just thinking of a park that I go
Speaker 2: to frequently, Rosy Mound Park here in grant Haven. Beautiful,
Speaker 2: beautiful place and what you will see and when you
Speaker 2: are there, you kind of have to do it in
Speaker 2: reverse because you're coming from land and then going towards
Speaker 2: the lake. But how this actually works is, you know,
Speaker 2: bought closer to the lake, you have very sandy dune
Speaker 2: like areas, and you get just a little bit of
Speaker 2: distance away and you get the beach grass and we've
Speaker 2: talked about beach grass lots and lots, and then that's
Speaker 2: kind of like the fore dune. And then once you
Speaker 2: get over the beach grass, you have another level of succession.
Speaker 2: And then you know, especially Rose Mound is a great
Speaker 2: example because you're kind of going up that dune and
Speaker 2: you see junipers and all of this other stuff, and
Speaker 2: then you get into a pine and beach forest, and
Speaker 2: if you were able to go further in lind you'd
Speaker 2: start getting into an oak forest. And that is kind
Speaker 2: of the different levels of succession. And here in West
Speaker 2: Michigan the kind of pioneer species, and that's what these
Speaker 2: woody plants that really show up and start to fundamentally
Speaker 2: transform these environments are called as pioneer species. The main
Speaker 2: pioneer species for the lake shore juniper.
Speaker 1: I believe it.
Speaker 2: I run across literally hopefully not literally run across them.
Speaker 2: So let's just think about this for a minute. So
Speaker 2: junipers are a plant that is easily spread by berries
Speaker 2: they have, well, I mean they're not technically berries, because
Speaker 2: junipers are not technically flowering plants, so we'll just call
Speaker 2: them berries for the sake of the argument. So birds
Speaker 2: eat them, and you know, they fly over to the lake.
Speaker 2: The seeds end up landing in this area, and the
Speaker 2: juniper seed can germinate in very difficult conditions, so it
Speaker 2: can be in those open sandy areas, it can take
Speaker 2: the shifting winds and everything that may bury it or
Speaker 2: unbury it and be able to withstand all of that.
Speaker 2: And then once that juniper seedling starts to grow, it
Speaker 2: starts to fundamentally change the area around it. It's all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, providing shade where there was absolutely none
Speaker 2: before because there were no woody plants, there were no trees. Sure,
Speaker 2: So now this little juniper is providing some shade, and
Speaker 2: that is going to allow new seeds that blow in
Speaker 2: on the wind or come in on animals to potentially
Speaker 2: grow because that is a different environment. This woody plant,
Speaker 2: because it is persistent all year round, is going to
Speaker 2: catch leaves and other things like that and start to
Speaker 2: develop organic matter around that which will still allow other
Speaker 2: plants to grow. And that shade will also allow these
Speaker 2: other seeds to grow. And I think we have all
Speaker 2: experienced this, or almost all of us have experienced this,
Speaker 2: had a juniper in our landscape or a family member
Speaker 2: a friend's landscape, and those weeds start growing up through
Speaker 2: it the worst. Yeah, we're all in agreement here. I
Speaker 2: know you can't see an you're on his face, but
Speaker 2: she is enthusiastically nodding. She knows the feeling. So juniper
Speaker 2: is almost a nurse species. It changes the environment so much,
Speaker 2: and that is then when you're able to get all
Speaker 2: of these other things that start growing, and the juniper
Speaker 2: itself provides structure for birds to sit in and you know,
Speaker 2: have even spread around even more seeds. It provides a
Speaker 2: place for you know, squirrels and chipmunks to hide from
Speaker 2: snakes and hawks and all of this other stuff. So
Speaker 2: they are so that is kind of the the pioneer
Speaker 2: species for us here on the lake shore. But I
Speaker 2: think when we think about sort of the typical meadow
Speaker 2: more inland or what we're seeing is with farmland in transition,
Speaker 2: the pioneer species tend to be very tough native shrubs
Speaker 2: that sucker. So the number one culprits that we're seeing
Speaker 2: transition meadows into woodlands in those areas are going to
Speaker 2: be things like red twig dogwood also spread by berries,
Speaker 2: Erronia also spread by berries, and highly suckering sumac. Wow,
Speaker 2: what do you know, spread by beer? Yes, definitely, And
Speaker 2: I love seemac. I mean it's a beautiful plant. And
Speaker 2: willow now willow is spread by seed. But what you'll
Speaker 2: also notice about all of these plants is they are
Speaker 2: very very durable. They can take pretty much any kind
Speaker 2: of soil, they can take any kind of sun, pretty
Speaker 2: much all of these have you know, some shade tolerance
Speaker 2: as well as sun tolerance, and again they have this
Speaker 2: suckering habits. So not only is that little seedling going
Speaker 2: to start growing, but those plants are going to put
Speaker 2: out runners and start to kind of grow and establish
Speaker 2: and then be actually quite competitive against a lot of
Speaker 2: these herbaceous plants that would otherwise be spreading. So in
Speaker 2: a meadow, these types of shrubs are a bad thing
Speaker 2: because it basically means that your meadow will eventually in time,
Speaker 2: and we're talking about a scale of you know, I
Speaker 2: think the general ecological scale of succession is considered to
Speaker 2: be about one hundred and fifty years, So this is
Speaker 2: not like happening overnight. You know. Obviously it depends on
Speaker 2: a number of different factors. And I am speaking specifically
Speaker 2: about North American species here, because in other countries, like
Speaker 2: especially Australia, things are totally totally different. But what we
Speaker 2: can do as gardeners, and we're not trying to grow meadows,
Speaker 2: is to kind of look at those traits, those durabilities
Speaker 2: that those plants have and use them to our advantage
Speaker 2: in the landscape and say, hey, these are pioneer species.
Speaker 2: These can tough it out against plants that I may
Speaker 2: not want or plants that I don't want to manage,
Speaker 2: and really use those to transform areas into low maintenance landscapes.
Speaker 2: So things like arctic fire red in, Arctic fire yellow
Speaker 2: red twig dogwoods, those are two great choices. Sun tolerant,
Speaker 2: shade tolerant, drought tolerant, wet tolerant, just durable, durable plants.
Speaker 2: The same thing can be said about all of our
Speaker 2: erroneas lowscape, mound, lowscape, snowfire ground, hug and berry scape.
Speaker 2: And if you are on the lake shore and you
Speaker 2: want to get a piece of that pioneer juniper, you
Speaker 2: can try out Montana moss in tortuga because again their
Speaker 2: position as pioneer species means that they are very durable.
Speaker 2: And while that's a bad thing for meadows, it can
Speaker 2: be a very good thing for us as gardeners. We're
Speaker 2: going to take a little break. When we come back.
Speaker 2: We are opening up the mailbag, dusting it off, opening
Speaker 2: it up, and we hope you'll stay tuned at proven
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Speaker 2: your home and express your personal style, look for Proven
Speaker 2: Winner's Shrubs in the distinctive white container at your local
Speaker 2: garden center or learn more at Proven Winner's Color Choice
Speaker 2: dot com. Cur Eating's gardening friends, and welcome back to
Speaker 2: the Gardening Simplified Show, where it is our pleasure to
Speaker 2: help you with your garden questions, quandaries and conundrums. And boy,
Speaker 2: they are coming in hot and heavy these days because
Speaker 2: well it's height range of season, and you know, that's
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Speaker 1: whatever it may be, we're here to deliver.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: At least we'll try.
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Speaker 2: Com to kind of help you through all of those.
Speaker 2: If you have a question and you want to reach
Speaker 2: out to us Gardening Simplified on air dot com, there's
Speaker 2: a contact form you can even attach photos, but we
Speaker 2: can't get to all your questions there, so please don't
Speaker 2: hesitate to also use the feedback form on proven Winners
Speaker 2: dot com, where you will also hear from not a robot,
Speaker 2: but from a real horticulturist who cares about your success. Uh.
Speaker 2: And we do get back to those, although I have
Speaker 2: to say the volume has been a little bit crushing
Speaker 2: lately because you know, there's just a lot going on.
Speaker 1: Operators are standing by.
Speaker 2: Well standing by. It's more like when you call a
Speaker 2: credit card company and they're like, you are one hundred
Speaker 2: and forty fifth in line. Would you like us to
Speaker 2: call you back at a more convenient time? But we're
Speaker 2: doing our best.
Speaker 1: This call may be recorded for quality or sure.
Speaker 2: I think you've got a bright future. That was That
Speaker 2: was very pleasant. It didn't sell like a robot, you know,
Speaker 2: like most of them do at all. But of course
Speaker 2: we also care very much about your celebrations in the garden,
Speaker 2: and so you know, I try not to toot our
Speaker 2: own horn too much here at Proven Winter's Color Choice Shrubs.
Speaker 2: We are here to share our experience and our expertise
Speaker 2: and help you become the best gardener that you can be,
Speaker 2: and that is our main goal, whether you ever buy
Speaker 2: a Proven Winner's Color Choice Shrubs or not. But I
Speaker 2: did have to share this message from listener Kyle, and
Speaker 2: he writes last fault, I asked about winter protection for
Speaker 2: big leaf hydrangeas and you provided some great advice. I
Speaker 2: just want to share how amazing my Let's Dance Skyview
Speaker 2: hydrangea is performing at the end of June here in Minnesota,
Speaker 2: USDA Zone four B. Now those words would never probably
Speaker 2: have been heard in a sentence correct previous to this.
Speaker 2: How well, how amazing big leaf hydrangea performing June Minnesota
Speaker 2: like unheard of not.
Speaker 1: Only the zone. But it was a rough winter.
Speaker 2: Yes, so we all have terrible winter throughout the country,
Speaker 2: and that is the kind of winter that definitely would
Speaker 2: have killed back other big leaf hydrangees, and in fact
Speaker 2: it did kill back Let's Dance Skyview. You experience die
Speaker 2: back in your plants, We experience die back in our
Speaker 2: plants here in our West Michigan Trowl Gardens and Adriana
Speaker 2: and I will have a video out about that very soon.
Speaker 2: And yet despite all of that, Let's Dance Skyview Hydrangea
Speaker 2: is blooming everywhere. Yes, And that was really our goal
Speaker 2: with this plant is to kind of make it as
Speaker 2: fail proof as possible. Now, there's a lot of human
Speaker 2: error that goes into big leaf hydrangeas that make them
Speaker 2: not bloom. People cut them back, or landscape or cuts
Speaker 2: them back or whatever. But really weather has traditionally been
Speaker 2: some of the biggest obstacles to getting good flowers on hydrangea.
Speaker 2: And what makes Let's Stance Skyview so different than any
Speaker 2: other big leaf hydrangea on the market with possible exception
Speaker 2: of Letstance can do which also has this characteristic it
Speaker 2: sets flower buds even at the base of the plant.
Speaker 1: It's amazing.
Speaker 2: Before they only conventional varieties only set their flower buds
Speaker 2: way up here at the tips, so if it got
Speaker 2: browsed by deer or it got kicked, you know, taken
Speaker 2: back by weather or whatever, it was gone like there
Speaker 2: were no old wood flower buds at all. So because
Speaker 2: Let's stan Skyview sets them low down on the ground,
Speaker 2: they can actually survive all of those challenges. And what
Speaker 2: you can see here in the photos that Kyle sent,
Speaker 2: is that there's a lot of flowers that are fully open,
Speaker 2: bright pink. It is a plant that can be pink
Speaker 2: or blue depending on your soil chemistry. And those flowers
Speaker 2: that are completely open, those are the old wood blooms.
Speaker 2: And you can also see flowers that are just starting
Speaker 2: to appear, and those are the new wood blooms. So
Speaker 2: conventional big leaf hydrangeas they needed to get to a
Speaker 2: certain level of maturity on each stem in order to
Speaker 2: put a new wood bloom out. And for a lot
Speaker 2: of people, especially for those of us in cold climates,
Speaker 2: that didn't even happen until like September, so we wouldn't
Speaker 2: even get the new wood blooms. So it's really just
Speaker 2: a testament to the the you know, observation and testing
Speaker 2: and refinement that has gone into this plant. Kyle continues
Speaker 2: to say, this plant was covered with just a small
Speaker 2: pile of wood mulch. This past winter. We spent a
Speaker 2: good amount of time with temperatures well below negative twenty
Speaker 2: degrees fahrenheit. Attached is a picture of inspiration for all
Speaker 2: the other cold weather gardeners.
Speaker 1: That's fantastic. Thank you Kyle and yes, mine are beautiful
Speaker 1: in my landscape too, and I still contend last year,
Speaker 1: and that's pretty impressive. Zone four B way to go,
Speaker 1: But I still contend last year. It was that fluctuation
Speaker 1: between cold and warm up, cold and warm up. It
Speaker 1: went on for six or seven months, and I had
Speaker 1: a number of plants that suffered. But yes, the Let's
Speaker 1: Dance skyview in my landscape gorgeous right now.
Speaker 2: So it is not just hype that we say here,
Speaker 2: because this is for Winterward's Color Choice shops. We are
Speaker 2: thrilled to hear that you are having as much success
Speaker 2: with this plant as we have to. So thank you
Speaker 2: so much, Kyle.
Speaker 1: What else we got, Teresa? It writes to us, Hello,
Speaker 1: I garden in five B, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and most
Speaker 1: of the cone flower buds on the plant have no petals.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this is mites or astor yellows virus,
Speaker 1: and wondering whether I discard the entire plant or cut
Speaker 1: the blooms and attempt to treat the plant next year
Speaker 1: in spring. Looking forward to your response and Stacy. The
Speaker 1: first thing I thought about was astor yellows and if
Speaker 1: it is astor yellows, then maybe their toasts.
Speaker 2: Yes, So that was one of the reasons why I
Speaker 2: felt like Teresa's question was so good to answer right now.
Speaker 2: Because astro yellows is a disease. It is called by
Speaker 2: what is known as a phytoplasma or a phytoplasma like organism,
Speaker 2: which is just this weird organism. It's not a bacteria.
Speaker 1: What affected Bill Murray in the movie Ghostbusters he gets
Speaker 1: covered in it.
Speaker 2: Yes, that was ectoplasma. Oh, ectoplasm. This is phytoplasma. So
Speaker 2: it's not a bacteria, it's not a fungus, it's it's
Speaker 2: not a you know, nobody really can can. I mean,
Speaker 2: there are scientists, of course you can describe what it is,
Speaker 2: but it's just this weird kind of organism. It is
Speaker 2: spread through piercing and sucking insects like mites and aphids
Speaker 2: and all of that kind of thing. And it so
Speaker 2: yellowing is potentially one of the you know, symptoms that
Speaker 2: you have astra yellows, but it causes all sorts of
Speaker 2: weird contorted growth. Things just look very off. And if
Speaker 2: you have ast yellows and it so it affects a
Speaker 2: number of plants in the astor acy or the daisy family.
Speaker 2: It also affects other plants as well, and that are
Speaker 2: outside of that family. Very often these diseases are quite
Speaker 2: confined to within a botanical family, a scientific plant family.
Speaker 2: But in this case, there's all sorts of things that
Speaker 2: can get astra yellows, even though it's still called astra yellows.
Speaker 2: And yes, if you have a plant that has astra yellows,
Speaker 2: the very best thing that you can do is to
Speaker 2: take it out. And believe me, I know that is
Speaker 2: easier said than done, because it's painful to take out
Speaker 2: a plant, but all that's that they cannot recover from it,
Speaker 2: and all that's going to happen is you have this
Speaker 2: kind of capital of astra yellows for all of those
Speaker 2: piercing and sucking insects to come suck up the astra
Speaker 2: yellow sap from those plants and transmit it to other plants.
Speaker 2: So you kind of have to take one for the
Speaker 2: team and get those out of there if you can.
Speaker 2: But I will say that in Teresa's case, this is
Speaker 2: not est yellows because as you can see, the flowers
Speaker 2: look perfectly healthy. If this was ast yellows, they would
Speaker 2: be contorted and.
Speaker 1: Look looking like almost paranormal.
Speaker 2: Yes, paranormal is who.
Speaker 1: You're gonna call Stacey Hervella at proven Winter's Color Choice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I can give them the bad news and
Speaker 2: you can just get to go over here having a
Speaker 2: grand old time, and I have to be the bad guy,
Speaker 2: good cop, bad cup. So yeah, it's hard. So I
Speaker 2: think that what you do most likely have is the
Speaker 2: cone mites, which is good news that you don't have astriellos,
Speaker 2: because astriyellows can also cause a lack of petals. All
Speaker 2: these plants and the cone mites are not really that bad.
Speaker 2: I would just and again, your plant looks really lovely,
Speaker 2: so I know this is a little bit of a heartbreak,
Speaker 2: but I would go ahead and cut those off and
Speaker 2: just discard them right now and just hope for better
Speaker 2: next year, because that way, you know, the mites aren't
Speaker 2: completing their life cycle since they're active in the cones
Speaker 2: right now. I would also say that what I have
Speaker 2: noticed is we have had a lot of really hot,
Speaker 2: dry weather after a very nice mild, rainy season where
Speaker 2: I didn't have to water for like a month. Boy,
Speaker 2: am I paying that bill right now? And I'm finding
Speaker 2: that with that hot weather that we've had that my
Speaker 2: petals are not lasting very long. Like I have a
Speaker 2: beautiful sunflower that just self sowed in the garden, loving it,
Speaker 2: and one day I'm like, oh wow, that is gorgeous.
Speaker 2: And the next day I'm watering and I'm like, where'd
Speaker 2: the petals go?
Speaker 1: Same thing. I've got them popping up all over the place.
Speaker 2: They're beautiful, yes, but just yeah, with the heat. Also,
Speaker 2: the petals are not lasting very long. I would also
Speaker 2: add one other thing, and that is if you have
Speaker 2: Japanese beetles, they love the petals. They may not cause
Speaker 2: a lot of damage to the rest of the plant
Speaker 2: like they would on like a rose or something like that,
Speaker 2: but Japanese beetles, cucumber beetles, there's all sorts of things
Speaker 2: that absolutely relish the opportunity to eat the petals of
Speaker 2: your asters and other things like that.
Speaker 1: And here in the mail bag, it's that time of
Speaker 1: the year. Walk through your veggie garden. I nailed a
Speaker 1: couple of them yesterday. Tomato horn worms.
Speaker 2: Oh you did.
Speaker 1: It's that season. A pepper plant just overnight crazy, So
Speaker 1: be looking for tomato hornworms.
Speaker 2: Too, Yeah, definitely. So there's it is high past season.
Speaker 2: So you know, I would say if you are a
Speaker 2: person with like a full time job, it's very easy
Speaker 2: for things to happen during the day when you're away
Speaker 2: at work, and then you get home and you're like, wait,
Speaker 2: I thought, why isn't my cone flower have any petals?
Speaker 2: And it was just a little cucumber beetle party that
Speaker 2: you were invited to, and now you don't have any petals.
Speaker 2: So lots of things happening. But the good news is
Speaker 2: you don't have astro yellows. If you're seeing weirdness on
Speaker 2: any of your asters or anything in the astorracy, any
Speaker 2: Daisy family plants or other plants, do look this up,
Speaker 2: know how to identify it, what to look for, and
Speaker 2: do try to bring yourself to remove those plants.
Speaker 1: We can get can though. I mean, you know, if
Speaker 1: you show up after work at home and the stay
Speaker 1: puff marshmallow man is there, well then you got a
Speaker 1: whole other thing going on.
Speaker 2: Just don't cross your beams. We're going to take a
Speaker 2: little break. When we come back, we are continuing our
Speaker 2: conversation on meadow gardening, so please t you tuned. Thanks
Speaker 2: for listening to the Gardening Simplified podcast. Brought to you
Speaker 2: by Proven Winners Color Choice Shrubs. Our award winning flowering
Speaker 2: shrubs and evergreens are trialed and tested by experts with
Speaker 2: your success in mind. Learn more at Proven winnerscolor Choice
Speaker 2: dot com.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show. So your meadow
Speaker 1: garden doesn't have to be a mess. If you use
Speaker 1: some rhythm and repetition in drifts, you can create that wild,
Speaker 1: natural look, but not necessarily have what some people would
Speaker 1: call a mess on your hands. Meadows are beautiful and
Speaker 1: a wildflower metal is a complex interactive plant community, not
Speaker 1: just a collection of individuals. And natural doesn't mean just native. Now.
Speaker 1: I know this might be a controversial thing to say,
Speaker 1: but again, when we go back to Adolph's gardens, Stacey,
Speaker 1: he uses a lot of aliums, and aliums are a
Speaker 1: genus that encompasses the entire northern hemisphere and beyond Europe
Speaker 1: and Asia.
Speaker 2: Yes, and there are a number of native alioms that
Speaker 2: work very well in meadow gardens. And you know, I
Speaker 2: think that Pete Udolph and other new naturalists would be
Speaker 2: the first to say, hey, I never claimed this is
Speaker 2: a native plant garden. I think that we very often
Speaker 2: project the nativeness into these gardens because they feel of
Speaker 2: the landscape, and so we kind of assume that they
Speaker 2: are all natives. So it is absolutely possible to have
Speaker 2: a naturalistic meadow that is perhaps some native plants and
Speaker 2: some non native plants, and as long as you don't
Speaker 2: have invasive plants that are going to cause problems for
Speaker 2: you or your neighbors or whatever, that's perfectly fine. But
Speaker 2: there are also lovely seed mixes that you can get
Speaker 2: of one hundred percent North American natives as long as
Speaker 2: you do your research and shop at the right places. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: don't just assume that it's going to be a native
Speaker 2: plant garden or that it must be, because there is
Speaker 2: a lot of room, you know, to do all of
Speaker 2: these different things. It's really just a question of your
Speaker 2: values and what you want out of your meadow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a host of plants that you can use.
Speaker 1: I mean, for me, I love seeing milkweed in a
Speaker 1: type of meadow setting. I have seen people who have
Speaker 1: created these meadow gardens and used solidago and it has
Speaker 1: gotten out a hand.
Speaker 2: Oh that's a plant that will definitely get in a
Speaker 2: hand depending on which species you have. Absolutely correct.
Speaker 1: So plant in drifts create repetition with similar colors and textures.
Speaker 1: It gives you some cohesion. Keep it simple, repeat plantings,
Speaker 1: create a color succession. Use plants that bloom at different
Speaker 1: times for continuous color throughout the season, because you know,
Speaker 1: again this is something that is a seasonal experience. And
Speaker 1: don't forget pathways. I think pathways are important as you
Speaker 1: design the garden. And also I like to get some
Speaker 1: plants that are along the pathway that are going to
Speaker 1: escape their bounds just a little bit, so as you
Speaker 1: walk this path the foliage brushes against your leg. It's
Speaker 1: just this romantic feel as you walk through a meadow garden.
Speaker 1: Maybe a rustic bench where you can sit and relax
Speaker 1: for a while, but try to establish that feeling of
Speaker 1: the open metal. And then again, plants that aren't too tall,
Speaker 1: because we're trying to create that.
Speaker 2: Feel, right, And I mean, what good is a meadow
Speaker 2: garden that you can only look at from the outer
Speaker 2: edges and not kind of be in the middle and
Speaker 2: have that amazing feeling of just being surrounded by plants.
Speaker 2: And so, you know, it is absolutely acceptable if you're
Speaker 2: starting with especially a seed mix. Very often those are
Speaker 2: intended to be mowed and you can just mow a
Speaker 2: path right through it. You can even mow different paths
Speaker 2: every year, you know, to do something different, but yeah,
Speaker 2: that you do want to make sure that you have
Speaker 2: a way to access it, not just to enjoy it,
Speaker 2: but also to maintain it. Because you know, meadows, most meadows,
Speaker 2: even though especially like an oodolf style or more naturalistic style,
Speaker 2: will include bulbs and that type of stuff that will
Speaker 2: be just fine in spring. You know, when there's nothing
Speaker 2: around to kind of shade it out, you are going
Speaker 2: to have to cut plants back and remove all of that,
Speaker 2: you know, brush and cut back perennial parts at some point,
Speaker 2: either in late fall or in early spring. My choice
Speaker 2: would be early spring, just so you have something to
Speaker 2: look at all season long. But of course it all
Speaker 2: depends on when you have the most work to do. Right,
Speaker 2: perfectly fine to do that in fall, after everything has
Speaker 2: gone dormant, if you prefer so. You need to get
Speaker 2: in there and do that. You need to get in
Speaker 2: there and manage weeds, especially for the first three years
Speaker 2: of trying to establish this garden, and you need to
Speaker 2: make sure that nothing undesirable starts to get established and outcompetes.
Speaker 2: The plants are paying good money for you.
Speaker 1: I can't emphasize that enough. That's why from the start
Speaker 1: and why August is such a great time, especially solarization,
Speaker 1: and that's what I did in my landscape, and then
Speaker 1: I went with plugs and smaller plants along with seed
Speaker 1: to start to develop. This look so super important. You
Speaker 1: got to give them a competitive edge against the wind
Speaker 1: and also drought or heat. So some soil preparation is necessary.
Speaker 1: Make sure to plan ahead for that and give them
Speaker 1: that competitive edge. And you know, great perspective there, Stacey,
Speaker 1: because in some cases these modern meadows, maybe we're using
Speaker 1: it in our front yard. Yes, you're going to have
Speaker 1: to mow or prune or trim maybe a couple of
Speaker 1: times a year, but that sure beats having to cut
Speaker 1: the grass twice a week with a conventional line.
Speaker 2: Absolutely I would much rather do that. Yes, and you
Speaker 2: know you are again going to have to spend those
Speaker 2: first couple of years really up on it and maintaining everything.
Speaker 2: And let's not forget water, because even though most meadows
Speaker 2: are going to be very drought tolerant once they are established,
Speaker 2: although you can certainly have a wet meadow or a
Speaker 2: medium moist meadow. And again, if you're looking to plant
Speaker 2: from seed, you can get just the right seed mix
Speaker 2: for your actual soil conditions. But many of them are
Speaker 2: teller once they're established. But just like any other seedling,
Speaker 2: they do want plenty of water while they are getting established,
Speaker 2: and you don't want to risk your investment in time
Speaker 2: or money by not providing the water that they need
Speaker 2: during that really crucial first two to three years of establishment.
Speaker 1: Now, as far as plants are concerned, as I mentioned
Speaker 1: in segment one, grasses are going to be the backbone,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, the foundation, whether it's switch grass or
Speaker 1: blue stem or feather reed grass. Many different types of
Speaker 1: grasses you can use for plant choices. You can visit
Speaker 1: a website we've talked often about Pete Odolph, and his
Speaker 1: website will give you the link. Because you go to
Speaker 1: that link and visit some of the gardens he's created,
Speaker 1: you'll see the various plants that you can use in
Speaker 1: your meadow garden. For example, a favorite of mine are
Speaker 1: the anemonies, the fall blooming anemonies, just beautiful plants and
Speaker 1: they really dance in the breeze along with the grasses.
Speaker 1: Of course, Agastaki is going to be very important. Robeccia's
Speaker 1: Achinacia's coreopsis. And you'll see that many of these meadow
Speaker 1: gardens also use Liatris.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I love liatris. That's a plant. I wish
Speaker 2: it was a little more drought tolerant because I don't
Speaker 2: have a lot of success growing it in my very
Speaker 2: drowdy garden. And I do love it.
Speaker 1: Asters or Hellennium sneeze wheed another plant that likes wet, wet,
Speaker 1: more wet soil exact that I can't get established that
Speaker 1: I have tried many times, and I've given up. Globe
Speaker 1: thistle not better about it. Don't worry U. Petorium or
Speaker 1: joe pie weed. And by the way, there are cultivars
Speaker 1: of shorter joe pie weed available now. I think it's
Speaker 1: called little Joe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but who wants a short joe pie weed in
Speaker 2: their meadow? Give me the ten foot tall stuff?
Speaker 1: There you go? Would you put cup plant in? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I get my grasses, You get your company, all right.
Speaker 1: Veronica alpine sea holly sedum's panicoms as we mentioned Persecaria
Speaker 1: minardas within a landscape like this and even and We
Speaker 1: talked about it a few weeks ago when we talked
Speaker 1: about hibiscus, But what about hibiscus mustudos.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, if you have a wet meadow, for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that would be quite at home in that kind of garden.
Speaker 1: In a native plant here in North America, Guerras yarrow, Galardia,
Speaker 1: lots and lots of plants to pick from, And like
Speaker 1: I said, a favorite for me has got to be
Speaker 1: milkweed in a meadow garden definitely.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love goa and I do have it in
Speaker 2: my garden. But I'm thinking back to a time that
Speaker 2: I was visiting the San Antonio Botanical Garden and the
Speaker 2: entire entrance it was in spring. The entire entrance was
Speaker 2: planted as a meadow like all along kind of the
Speaker 2: road and medians, and it was all blue bonnets in
Speaker 2: ghara and it was one of the most beautiful combinations
Speaker 2: that you could possibly imagine. But yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 2: really important to when you're establishing a menu meadow to
Speaker 2: not pick plants that you like necessarily, but plants that
Speaker 2: can tolerate your conditions because kind of, you know, as
Speaker 2: much effort as it is to get that established established, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you need to make sure that it is going to
Speaker 2: be sustainable for your actual conditions in the long run,
Speaker 2: because the goal is really to get your meadow garden
Speaker 2: to a point where you are only really mowing it
Speaker 2: down maybe once a year in the spring or late winter,
Speaker 2: early spring or in the fall, if you prefer, and
Speaker 2: then kind of getting all of that cut stuff out
Speaker 2: of it, managing any woody plants that have popped up,
Speaker 2: so that you're kind of really doing like at one point,
Speaker 2: you know, ideally maybe one day of maintenance, but it
Speaker 2: is going to take a lot of time to get there,
Speaker 2: and you don't want to add extra work on yourself
Speaker 2: by having to ear gate it because you have a
Speaker 2: wet meadow but dry soil. And I'm saying this for
Speaker 2: myself because I personally prefer the look of wet meadows,
Speaker 2: but there is nothing in my yard that will ever
Speaker 2: be wet meadow.
Speaker 1: And Stacey, it'll be interesting when you put in your
Speaker 1: meadow garden how many neighbors will follow suit.
Speaker 2: Well, Hey, you know, I kind of was a trailblazer
Speaker 2: pioneer with my ear removing my lawn and that's the
Speaker 2: first step. And I always said when we removed our lawn.
Speaker 2: Two years ago, I said, if this doesn't work out,
Speaker 2: it becomes a meadow. So we're not there yet, but
Speaker 2: it's not gonna lie and say it doesn't appeal to
Speaker 2: me here and there.
Speaker 1: Fantastic. We'll have fun with your little house on the prairie.
Speaker 1: Thank you Stacy, thank you Rick, thank you Adriana, and
Speaker 1: thanks to you for watching us on YouTube, downloading our podcast,
Speaker 1: or for our radio show listeners. Have yourself a great week.