Speaker 1: Oh trigger warn this podcast may include explicit content.
Speaker 2: That will take you out of your comfort zone and
Speaker 2: make you question reality. Listeners, question is advised. How do you, folks,
Speaker 2: Your host double J back here, coming at you live
Speaker 2: slash live in a deep rain delay from my studio
Speaker 2: slash RV dining room located directly inside America. Now, folks
Speaker 2: of interwebs, once again JJ Vance here, host of Operation
Speaker 2: GCD right there and perhaps more notably not the Vice President.
Speaker 2: So thanks for joining me here tonight, folks. I will
Speaker 2: be your pilot navigator for tonight's Shenanigan infused journey into
Speaker 2: the mind of this particular garbage can dude and not
Speaker 2: going a lot of you, folks of interwebs, got a
Speaker 2: real barn burner on deck for you all tonight in
Speaker 2: a cult and a or s O Terror review of
Speaker 2: the nineteen eighty one film Ghost Story. And if you
Speaker 2: folks of interwebs were like me and had not heard
Speaker 2: of this film, you know it is an interesting watch
Speaker 2: and hopefully you'll you'll reach that conclusion yourself after we
Speaker 2: discussed tonight's review. But it was the inspiration of tonight's
Speaker 2: guests that spawned this review because once again, I had
Speaker 2: not heard of this film, but tonight's guest John Mitchell,
Speaker 2: one of Tonight's guests, John Mitchell, and his blog over
Speaker 2: on Substack is highlighting a lot of these matters relative
Speaker 2: to the Sun of Sam and this particular one out
Speaker 2: of Peter straw books, that is the author of this
Speaker 2: story that was later adapted into a film. But this
Speaker 2: particular one ghost story I find interesting because it was
Speaker 2: written contemporaneously to the Son of Sam events in New
Speaker 2: York City back in with the arrest of Burke Whits
Speaker 2: in seventy seven, and Straw writes this book in seventy
Speaker 2: eight and is published in January of seventy nine, and
Speaker 2: seems like seems like Peter Straw was in the know,
Speaker 2: and a lot of these cult details in around that
Speaker 2: whole Sun of Sam process situation. And John's a great
Speaker 2: research for into these matters relative to Yonkers Coult activities
Speaker 2: in around New York City, specifically Westchester County, New York,
Speaker 2: the place I like to call a den of iniquity.
Speaker 2: But thanks for joining us here tonight to get a
Speaker 2: little GCD folks, and welcome our guest John Mitchell and
Speaker 2: Julia from Cosmic Peach. How y'all doing. Welcome Operation GCD.
Speaker 2: Welcome back. Not your first time, is it, Julia John
Speaker 2: greeting Sarah. Always great to have you back as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's good to be back.
Speaker 4: Absolutely yeah, thanks thanks for having me. Jj. I'm excited
Speaker 4: about this one for.
Speaker 2: Sure, me too. I really, you know, horror films are
Speaker 2: not my you know, not my favorite genre, but this one,
Speaker 2: given the esoteric understandings of a lot of the things,
Speaker 2: uh and uh, just a lot of the elements of
Speaker 2: the story, I found very interesting. So and it wasn't
Speaker 2: I had never heard of this film. So and we
Speaker 2: actually had two other parties joining us tonight. We had
Speaker 2: Davy Wavey and Nick has to be a cult rejects. However,
Speaker 2: much like the characters in Tonight's film who just seemingly,
Speaker 2: you know, fall off and die throughout the storyline of
Speaker 2: Tonight's discussion in the in the film plotline, Nick and
Speaker 2: Davey Wavey didn't die, but I'm saying they've fallen off
Speaker 2: Tonight's panal due to other reasons, whether and other matters,
Speaker 2: personal matters. Nonetheless, we uh, we continue with our with
Speaker 2: our with our review, and I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I have a lot of occult stuff. I mean, I
Speaker 2: definitely saw a lot of esoteric stuff in the film.
Speaker 2: And what were your thoughts, John Overall? I know you've
Speaker 2: written a pretty an extensive block piece on Strab's work,
Speaker 2: but you did a lot of you highlighted a lot
Speaker 2: of very salient characteristics I think of the Son of
Speaker 2: Sam cult, right, and your blog piece relative to the
Speaker 2: ghost story plot line, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, there's an awful lot of stuff, especially in
Speaker 3: the in the novel, but some of it survives in
Speaker 3: the movie too, really really conscious references to the Yonker's cult,
Speaker 3: and it's sort of like it's a version of the
Speaker 3: story that never mentioned Son of Sam directly, but it
Speaker 3: references all the other players and locations except for Son
Speaker 3: of Sam itself. So it's it's it's odd the way
Speaker 3: he did it, but it was ingenious for the book.
Speaker 3: It's it's really interesting story structure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree for sure. I got some ideas on
Speaker 2: those similar things that I saw. Perhaps that more annoyed
Speaker 2: thoughts I suppose of anything else. But before we get
Speaker 2: into that to those discussions, before we discuss our blog
Speaker 2: posts again, Thank y'all both for joining me here, and
Speaker 2: if I can offer you both, you know, your time
Speaker 2: to plug anything you're working on, or an introduction anything
Speaker 2: you're working on, please John start us off there.
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, I know you got.
Speaker 2: You got some new blog stuff, but as far as
Speaker 2: and I'll have the links here in the show notes.
Speaker 2: But if, yeah, if you want to introduce some of
Speaker 2: your work, and and then Julie, of course we'll let
Speaker 2: you do that next and then we'll get in our discussion. Okay,
Speaker 2: Well I'm not cutting out.
Speaker 3: Well, I wrote a long essay or a short booklet,
Speaker 3: I guess, or pamphlet depending on how you you know
Speaker 3: which classification you prefer called before Son of Sam, and
Speaker 3: in the sub stac blog, I'm just elaborating on some
Speaker 3: of the points that I originally made in the booklet.
Speaker 3: And occasionally, you know, you run across new information that
Speaker 3: relates to things that you've already discussed. So yeah, I
Speaker 3: had been thinking about the death Mask murder in the
Speaker 3: last few days, so I just wrote up a little
Speaker 3: something on that. But yeah, it's all Son of Sam
Speaker 3: adjacent stuff.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's awesome, And I'll make sure these links
Speaker 2: from the show notes for folks that jack out. We'll
Speaker 2: be diving into some of those blog posts here in
Speaker 2: a second, because that death Mask one that's a I
Speaker 2: find out a very interesting and important case for folks
Speaker 2: to understand what's going on with all that. But before
Speaker 2: we get into that, Julia, thanks again man for joining
Speaker 2: me here tonight. What have you been working out of
Speaker 2: the Cosmic Peach podcast?
Speaker 4: So, I'm actually working on something that I was talking
Speaker 4: to John about before we started recording or before we
Speaker 4: went live, which is program serial Killers. It's one of
Speaker 4: my favorite subjects to talk about. I actually have discovered
Speaker 4: two new program serial Killers that were not mentioned in
Speaker 4: Program to Kill, But I've put together presentations on both
Speaker 4: of them and those episodes will be coming out in
Speaker 4: a month or so. I'd love to talk to you
Speaker 4: JJ about them because they're absolutely mind blowing the connections.
Speaker 4: But yeah, Cosmic podcast, uh.
Speaker 2: Huh oh sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. But yeah,
Speaker 4: I got a lot of cool stuff I'm working on,
Speaker 4: and this episode seems to be falling right in line
Speaker 4: with a bunch of stuff I'm working on too. Actually,
Speaker 4: you know, program killers is the best subject in my opinion.
Speaker 2: It's funny you mentioned that with this film hitting on
Speaker 2: so many subjects of things we're already working on, because
Speaker 2: I you know, it's not necessarily relative to the conversation.
Speaker 2: So I'll bring it up here in a moment of
Speaker 2: how that kind of hit. This film hit home to
Speaker 2: me in some weird synchronistic fashions, right, But to this
Speaker 2: program killer note, you know, I think that is interesting
Speaker 2: that I do think there is an aspect I think
Speaker 2: mcgallan is correct relating some of the matters to this
Speaker 2: cold activity and killings the son of Sam Coult and
Speaker 2: related to cold activity in around the Auncors that Johns
Speaker 2: highlighted on his bag. I do find that very relative.
Speaker 2: The two conversations are the same in my opinion.
Speaker 4: Hmm.
Speaker 2: Now, these ones you were going over, they weren't by
Speaker 2: name Buffalo Jared Revisa, were they?
Speaker 4: No? No, you probably won't even recognize him. If I
Speaker 4: told you the name, I bet you probably haven't even
Speaker 4: heard of him.
Speaker 2: John, Are you familiar with my former stalker and the
Speaker 2: guy who demanded to be my pr rep Buffalo Jared Reviza,
Speaker 2: the parent mind controlled assassin. He went on a multi
Speaker 2: state stabbing spree.
Speaker 3: I think we talked about the first.
Speaker 2: I talked about him.
Speaker 3: A few months back. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I did a show there night about a
Speaker 2: cannibalistic homicidal kid ddling serial killer. It's like a bout
Speaker 2: the serial killer named Nathaniel Barr Jonah, Right, would you
Speaker 2: believe the same Bridgewater statement On hospital that let that
Speaker 2: that looney tune, you know, on the loose to go
Speaker 2: murder and eat more kids. In nineteen ninety one, he
Speaker 2: moved to Great Falls, Montana and continued his activities despite
Speaker 2: being a registered offender in the state of Massachusetts and
Speaker 2: let out of the looney bin after already doing this
Speaker 2: to five other kids, five other kids, not eating them.
Speaker 2: He didn't do that until later, but or at least
Speaker 2: on record, but he was let out the Bridgewater Statemental Hospital,
Speaker 2: and that's where Buffalo Jared allegedly sits today. So I
Speaker 2: have a lot of come on, I have a lot
Speaker 2: of questions.
Speaker 1: JJ.
Speaker 4: The only thing that's even adjacent to being in a
Speaker 4: military program is being in a minial hospital. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 4: they'll get you either way.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you said that. So to this point
Speaker 2: of how these these homicidal mind controlled you know, you know,
Speaker 2: hypnosis controlled or whatever you want to call it. Serial killers,
Speaker 2: serial killers, right, you know, the system time and time
Speaker 2: seems to just you know, inadvertently or accidentally let these
Speaker 2: people out. So in the case Nathaniel bar Jonah, he
Speaker 2: had not only attempted to murder five children beginning eighth
Speaker 2: at the age of seven, and by the age of seventeen,
Speaker 2: was in prison on a twenty year clip for doing
Speaker 2: the same stuff keeping trying to kidnap and kill children
Speaker 2: dressed as a police officer. Edward Wade. Edwards would do
Speaker 2: the same thing, by the way, nonetheless, his focus wasn't children,
Speaker 2: at least overwhelmingly he but nonetheless, Nathaniel bar Jonah he
Speaker 2: tells numerous psychiatrists that he wants to kill and eat children.
Speaker 2: He tells the judge that the judges as it's no
Speaker 2: big deal, We're gonna let this go. He's not this
Speaker 2: guy's not a danger to society. He tells another psychiatrist
Speaker 2: that after the judge makes the willing to let him
Speaker 2: out of the state mental hospital fourteen years after on
Speaker 2: a twenty year clip in prison for the kid the
Speaker 2: kid kidnapping and attempt to murder two children, right, and
Speaker 2: when they let him out, he did the same thing
Speaker 2: less than a month later.
Speaker 4: Fucker.
Speaker 2: And you know what, you know the district attorney date
Speaker 2: on on that charge that he did when he kidnapped
Speaker 2: kid less than month later, and he would he was
Speaker 2: a three hundred pound dude, so he would disable the
Speaker 2: children by sitting on them, right, This is this is
Speaker 2: his m He did the same thing kidnapping the kid,
Speaker 2: did the same thing, and the and the county prosecutor
Speaker 2: there said, you know what, I don't this guy's not
Speaker 2: a day. We're gonna give him probation. We're gonna give
Speaker 2: him probation.
Speaker 4: So well, that's the same with Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy.
Speaker 4: They kept exactly exactly And actually one of the serial
Speaker 4: killers that I'm covering in an upcoming episode kept getting
Speaker 4: let back out too. It was like orders from the
Speaker 4: district attorney's office letting this guy out. I mean, I
Speaker 4: can't give too much away, obviously because you'll have to
Speaker 4: listen to the episode, but it is crazy. And I
Speaker 4: did see in the in the comment section they said,
Speaker 4: is this the nineteen eighty one movie? Yes it is,
Speaker 4: And I had never heard of it, and I was
Speaker 4: actually get really excited because I love horror movies.
Speaker 2: And uh on these kind of same notes of the
Speaker 2: mind controlled serial killer, sasas and stuff when we're talking
Speaker 2: all these satanic cults and matters relative to the Son
Speaker 2: of same or the Process, right it is. And one
Speaker 2: note before I plugged my my the Anatomy of a
Speaker 2: Satanic panic series starting tomorrow and Operation GCD Patreon Nathaniel Barjona.
Speaker 2: The judge that let him out was the special prosecutor
Speaker 2: in the chap Aquidit case to let ted Kennedy walk,
Speaker 2: make that makes sense. And the woman that died in there,
Speaker 2: Mary Joe Capecney, she was the senior staff or the
Speaker 2: RFK on his presidential campaign, you know, the one where
Speaker 2: the Process was associated with this assassination Yem and Teddy
Speaker 2: Kennedy by that point in time had already been documented
Speaker 2: meeting with the Process and the Cambridge, Massachusetts mayor at
Speaker 2: a the Process coffee shop in Cambridge, Massachusetts prior to
Speaker 2: the state So seems seems kind of odd that this judge,
Speaker 2: you know, what I like to say is process folks
Speaker 2: are gonna process, right, So and this this judge seemed
Speaker 2: like he was more than willing to ignore numerous statements
Speaker 2: from psychiatrists, statements from the the actual homicidal psychopathic kid Dedling,
Speaker 2: you know, serial killer, maniac guy, and another psychiatrist after
Speaker 2: he made his decision just to say, you know what,
Speaker 2: We're gonna let this guy out. He's on a dangerous society.
Speaker 5: There's no coincidences, So that I'll be going over certain
Speaker 5: aspects of unpacking this is the quote unquote satanic panic
Speaker 5: and how ridiculous a lot of these concepts are.
Speaker 2: And how they revolve around a lot of around the
Speaker 2: psychological operations components, specifically in other matters around this guy.
Speaker 2: Colonel Michael Aquino. Now, Julie, are you fam there. This
Speaker 2: is a relative to Dave mcgow and John some of
Speaker 2: his work he did besides the Program to Kill, on
Speaker 2: some of these matters. Are you familiar with the the
Speaker 2: infamous exchange that Aquino had with Dave McGowan Syrica two
Speaker 2: thousand and one.
Speaker 4: He had uh interaction with Dave Well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so another one of the books John, John,
Speaker 2: you may not be familiar with this one, Julia, you
Speaker 2: may be familiar with it.
Speaker 5: Pedocracy, pedioocracy, Yeah, the pedaphocracy.
Speaker 2: There we go pedophocracy the McGowan books. So Aquino read that,
Speaker 2: saw his name and other associated friends in there, and
Speaker 2: wrote him an email saying, you're a madman, You're making
Speaker 2: stuff up. You're you're creating satanic panic. Was a statement
Speaker 2: a Quino made the McGowan be email. Obviously McGowan wasn't
Speaker 2: buying it, no, and.
Speaker 4: Also he probably read it and knew his goose was
Speaker 4: cooked because McGowan had all the facts there. He never
Speaker 4: published anything without having all the facts for sure.
Speaker 2: And it's a it's a quite hilarious exchange. And I
Speaker 2: will be coming going over with some of that in
Speaker 2: my you know, outline and unpacking of this quote unquote
Speaker 2: satanic panic. That again, when a man like Michael Quino
Speaker 2: is accusing folks who were studying facts, and again McGowan,
Speaker 2: you know, provides in the fact states the facts. As
Speaker 2: you were pointing out, Julia in the email exchanges, they
Speaker 2: have know and it's kind of laughable. His response is
Speaker 2: because mcgallan has a way of being kind of sarcastic
Speaker 2: without even with being intelligent at the same time, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm r I P Dave McGowan. I love that guy.
Speaker 2: And also hello.
Speaker 4: Maria, I saw her mentioning me in the comments.
Speaker 2: Yes, so that'll be a good one. Say on. On
Speaker 2: top of that, I have one more plug before we
Speaker 2: get we get started here, folks, and I do apologize
Speaker 2: for any long winded natures. I have a actually we have.
Speaker 2: We have a different a cult esoteric review coming up
Speaker 2: next week, don't we, Julia, Yes we do. So I
Speaker 2: married an axe murderer, right, Yeah, that's not it. I
Speaker 2: got it here somewhere stand by one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I married an axe murderers. Next week, yep.
Speaker 2: This time. Next Wednesday, we have a different cult esoteric
Speaker 2: view with a cosmic Peach returning back along with myself,
Speaker 2: Jien the Ninja, my Idaho four, I Haven't Costello Cohort
Speaker 2: and of course Hety Love from Unfiltered Rise podcast. So
Speaker 2: that'll be a good one. And then the following week,
Speaker 2: I have an occult esoteric review on lethal weapon. Relative
Speaker 2: to all these Iran Contra speaking of serial Killers, Phoenix Program,
Speaker 2: Come Home ideas of David McGowan that we see kind
Speaker 2: of depicted in that film, along with the drug running
Speaker 2: that we know around things such as BCCI and Iran
Speaker 2: Contra matters there, so that'd be a good one. And
Speaker 2: then actually, I forgot one more here. I got this
Speaker 2: Sunday on Operation GCD Patreon Sundays. I got the serial
Speaker 2: killer You have never heard of Edward Wyn Edwards. So
Speaker 2: speaking of more serial killers, that's a serial killers, that's
Speaker 2: a This one's a real barn burner, because, as I
Speaker 2: state in the title, most folks have never heard of
Speaker 2: the man. He's one of the most, if not the
Speaker 2: most diabolical serial killer in American history. So day like
Speaker 2: dark shit, that's a good one.
Speaker 4: That's a statement right there.
Speaker 3: JJ.
Speaker 2: Absolutely so on that note, let's talk more serial killers?
Speaker 2: Did I cut out in my back?
Speaker 4: No, you're good. You want John to go first?
Speaker 2: Well, I was gonna say, let's uh, let's me bring
Speaker 2: up the film first. Yeah, well we'll actually know what
Speaker 2: Let's let's jump into some of John's work if you
Speaker 2: don't mind on the Sun to Sam stuff. So I'm sure, Julia,
Speaker 2: you'll be knowledgeable in some of these topics he's discussing
Speaker 2: here in his blog posts. Yeah, so, John, what what what?
Speaker 2: What's been your It seems like you on your blog
Speaker 2: post from from what what I've read off your recent ones.
Speaker 2: You've been highlighting the ongoing activity, right, you did some
Speaker 2: of the ongoing activities here and.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very recent uh story from Westchester County about uh
Speaker 3: new or recent animal mutilations.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 3: The one of the New York City council women even
Speaker 3: acknowledges that, you know, it's it's cults that are doing this,
Speaker 3: so that I don't think this kind of activity ever stopped.
Speaker 3: I think, I mean, it was obviously was going on
Speaker 3: well before the Son of sam Era, but it continued,
Speaker 3: you know, long after Berkowitz was arrested, and you know
Speaker 3: the case was allegedly over.
Speaker 2: So John, color me me shock that Westchester County remains
Speaker 2: adent of inequity today as god back in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 2: But no, it says right here though, right like you
Speaker 2: said that these are fringe groups mutilating and killing animals,
Speaker 2: says New York City councilwoman Joe Anne. And that's a
Speaker 2: real name, Ariola, Ariola.
Speaker 4: So John, is it your opinion that this is accurate
Speaker 4: or are they giving us more smoking mirrors? Like are
Speaker 4: they trying to distract us? Like oh, it's you look
Speaker 4: at this, look at this, like what do you what
Speaker 4: are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 3: I think this one is because when I started to
Speaker 3: get into full time research, I had read another story
Speaker 3: I think was actually in USA today, where similar things
Speaker 3: were happening to this, like four or five years ago.
Speaker 3: So it appears to be ongoing up there now, you
Speaker 3: know what it's attached to. Who's in charge of the
Speaker 3: activity these days? I couldn't say, but and I've spoken
Speaker 3: to people from the area, and everybody seems to sort
Speaker 3: of be aware on some level that this kind of
Speaker 3: stuff has always happened and continues to happen. I think
Speaker 3: it is legit. Of course, there could be way worse
Speaker 3: things that are happening, you know, that are behind the
Speaker 3: scenes that we don't see. But at the very least,
Speaker 3: this continued ritual sacrifice of animals I think indicates that
Speaker 3: basically the same practices are still being conducted in that area.
Speaker 2: Okay, I gotcha, And it's kind of never stopped if
Speaker 2: you look at I mean, just from my just from
Speaker 2: my take on all these matters is looking at some
Speaker 2: of the newspaper accounts, there's records of mutilated animals throughout Westchester, Puttnam,
Speaker 2: even Fairfield County, Connecticut. So throughout the eighties even yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: into the nineties, so it didn't seem like it ever
Speaker 2: really stopped, right, I mean, they may shift their mode
Speaker 2: of operations and where their locations are doing things maybe,
Speaker 2: I guess right, but right, an ongoing enterprise.
Speaker 3: Yeah, different public parks and things like that. But it's
Speaker 3: it's it's always in areas where they seem to leave
Speaker 3: some traces of evidence deliberately so that people will see
Speaker 3: it and talk about it. And I think that's an
Speaker 3: ongoing preoccupation of these groups.
Speaker 2: Got that so on that note, What do you think
Speaker 2: they're doing that for? Is that a psychological terror campaign
Speaker 2: to scare America? When they're leaving things behind, they could
Speaker 2: just as easily clean it up, as you just pointed out,
Speaker 2: And I do agree, right right.
Speaker 3: I think it's like Peter Strub said in the novel
Speaker 3: ghost Story, they like to flaunt themselves. They like to
Speaker 3: leave breadcrumbs. It's it's a perverse thing that I think.
Speaker 3: It's like people who are flashers or something like it.
Speaker 3: People just they want people to see it, you know,
Speaker 3: whatever it is they're doing, they have to have an
Speaker 3: audience of some type for it.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of that that same kind of ego
Speaker 2: driven kind of thing, right they're trying. Of course, other
Speaker 2: people look at him naked. My math teacher did that
Speaker 2: in high school. He forced people to do that. It
Speaker 2: was after high school, but sadly he's my favorite, one
Speaker 2: of my favorite teachers in high school. But he was
Speaker 2: driving around after a couple years later, just getting women
Speaker 2: to pull over on the local highway or whatever and
Speaker 2: then running out there with an overcoat on, saying, you know,
Speaker 2: look at this, and then you know, things happen. You
Speaker 2: know what causes it? Yeah, you know, check out this
Speaker 2: ding dumb who doesn't causes these activities, but these things
Speaker 2: do happen.
Speaker 3: It is the kind of thing that it has to
Speaker 3: be like a deep seated compulsion for people to do
Speaker 3: it at all, because if if they sat and thought
Speaker 3: about it rationally, that they wouldn't be out there doing it.
Speaker 4: But yeah, speaking of this is a nineteen eighty one movie,
Speaker 4: and I was actually surprised how much full frontal there's
Speaker 4: a lot in this. Yeah, it's uh, it really was it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forgot this as an adult because I remember,
Speaker 2: you know a number, my son's eighteen now, but you know,
Speaker 2: almost almost eighteen. But when he was about seven or so,
Speaker 2: I was, you know, introducing him some films from my
Speaker 2: child and I totally forgot how much full front was
Speaker 2: in the film Howard the Duck, And then I realized,
Speaker 2: I'm like, it's PG right, But I realized they didn't
Speaker 2: invent PG thirteen for a couple more years because there's
Speaker 2: a lot of full frontal on it. There's duck on
Speaker 2: there's women have banging ducks in that film. There's that's
Speaker 2: a really weird film, and it's of course it's a
Speaker 2: marvel story.
Speaker 4: Right best reality at its finest.
Speaker 2: But yeah, they got a lot of They got away
Speaker 2: with a lot of stuff in the early eighties. I
Speaker 2: feel like in some of these films, this one had some,
Speaker 2: you know, more nudity than I thought was coming in it.
Speaker 2: But it is a horri.
Speaker 4: Yeah, me too, right, Yeah, you always know somebody's gonna
Speaker 4: die if their penis or tits are out.
Speaker 2: That's what I was offended by the cock shot early
Speaker 2: on in the film. I was offended by that there's
Speaker 2: no need to show the man's penis falling out of
Speaker 2: the building.
Speaker 3: That it wasn't that it was like a green screen
Speaker 3: thing and you could see the outline as he fell,
Speaker 3: you know, the whole scene is just really odd looking.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's definitely kind of low budge, I would say,
Speaker 4: but it's got a lot of aspects of like a
Speaker 4: classic eighties horror movie.
Speaker 2: And it's funny you say that it comes off with
Speaker 2: a budget, doesn't it.
Speaker 4: It does come off of a budge, it really does.
Speaker 4: That surprises me because, like, I don't want to get
Speaker 4: ahead of ourselves here, but like the scenes where it
Speaker 4: shows the uh, the woman as a skeleton and you know,
Speaker 4: she's all it looks like something that you could get
Speaker 4: at Spirit Halloween.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: It just kind of.
Speaker 2: It looked worse than that that Minnesota my control assassin
Speaker 2: over the weekend, right than his mass.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, but I will I don't want to get again,
Speaker 4: I don't want to get too far ahead into the
Speaker 4: movie or anything. But I will say I did enjoy
Speaker 4: it because I feel like it's a story. I think
Speaker 4: it's the predecessor actually to many horror movies that have
Speaker 4: the same outline. I don't know if it will be
Speaker 4: integral to anything John's gonna point out, but the idea
Speaker 4: of the vengeful spirit coming back and attacking the living
Speaker 4: and like taking them out one by one. It's repeated
Speaker 4: throughout a lot of horror movies. This might have been
Speaker 4: the first one that did that. I'm not sure. But
Speaker 4: have you guys ever seen a horror movie called Shutter?
Speaker 4: It was originally a Japanese horror movie that was like americanized.
Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever seen it.
Speaker 4: Well, it's the same concept, I would say, like movies
Speaker 4: like Grudge, you know, where it's like the bad guys
Speaker 4: killed somebody and their ghost comes back and kills them
Speaker 4: off one by one kind of thing, which is what.
Speaker 2: We have here in ghost Story.
Speaker 4: Huh right, Yeah, I do feel like it's an idea
Speaker 4: that's been kind of like, maybe they ripped it off
Speaker 4: of this movie because it's not as well known as
Speaker 4: some of the more popular ones. But sure it's older
Speaker 4: than them, So I'm thinking maybe they ripped it off
Speaker 4: of this movie because.
Speaker 2: You bring up some good points and I don't want
Speaker 2: to cut you off there. But before we go any further,
Speaker 2: this is gonna be the number one Halloween costume of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, I imagine. But this was the Vance Botler guy, right.
Speaker 2: He seemed like, speaking of horror stories should just watch
Speaker 2: this guy's story of the weekend. That's a horror story
Speaker 2: right there, the sigh of they try to pass off
Speaker 2: on folks.
Speaker 4: I didn't get to dive too far into it, but
Speaker 4: I'm sure you've got a lot of thoughts on.
Speaker 2: It's it's ridiculous, Yeah, I do, Well, you talk about
Speaker 2: some of their time. I just want to make the
Speaker 2: joke there because it's fancy both. I think that name
Speaker 2: is ridiculous, and I think that mask is ridiculous, just
Speaker 2: as ridiculous as the horror mask you're talking about from
Speaker 2: Ghost Story, you know what I mean. So, you know,
Speaker 2: as far as a low budget where the money went,
Speaker 2: I imagined it was all cocin hookers. But that's my opinion.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, didn't Poltergeist come out in the eighties
Speaker 4: or am I wrong?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Think think of all the freaking special effects they put
Speaker 4: into Poltergeist. You know, it just didn't seem like it
Speaker 4: was upper echelon type.
Speaker 2: Of make up what I'm saying. You know, you got
Speaker 2: to you gotta look at the Fred of Stare situation,
Speaker 2: and you know he's got a large, large amount money's
Speaker 2: probably dedicated to his you know, his budget line item
Speaker 2: of cocin hookers just for himself and I and I'm
Speaker 2: and on that note, before we go any further here
Speaker 2: on John's blogs, we will go over these characters, the
Speaker 2: actors in the film, because there's some interest in folks there.
Speaker 2: But yeah, John, you were also recovering the mystery of
Speaker 2: the mcnuts What's that's some more recent one of your
Speaker 2: since we last talk. That's your more the most recent one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was. I was really interested in that story
Speaker 3: that I think we've talked a little bit about. Jesse
Speaker 3: Turner and other or Mickey Rose, the name that Morey
Speaker 3: used to refer to. I don't know where the name
Speaker 3: came from. I don't know if that's the name that
Speaker 3: Turner used for himself, but he, you know, he lived
Speaker 3: with the Process in New Orleans, and he recalled an
Speaker 3: incident where a fellow Process member was hung up it
Speaker 3: sounds like on a wall or something, but but tied
Speaker 3: up and bled to death. And the person who did
Speaker 3: it was this person he refers to as Adam McNutt.
Speaker 3: And Adam's wife apparently was named Karen, and uh, it's
Speaker 3: it's a gruesome Morey referred to this just very very
Speaker 3: briefly in the epilogue of the expanded edition of his book.
Speaker 2: That yeah, I'm not hip. I'm not hip to this
Speaker 2: at all.
Speaker 4: But I'm not hip to this either.
Speaker 2: I'm very what years we talking here, this crucifixion situation.
Speaker 3: This was in the early seventies when when Turner lived
Speaker 3: with the Process in the French Quarter, they had a
Speaker 3: house there, and he said that he witnessed this murder
Speaker 3: and then the Adam and Karen the mcnutts took the
Speaker 3: body away in a car. He never saw Karen again,
Speaker 3: but then he Jesse Turner evidently travels west with Adam
Speaker 3: after this is all over with, and they go to
Speaker 3: try to set up headquarters for the Process in other areas.
Speaker 2: In the United States.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so it's it's in the files that we have.
Speaker 3: He doesn't really elaborate on the incident very much, but
Speaker 3: it is this is publicly available information now, and it's
Speaker 3: I've searched and searched in vain for any trace of
Speaker 3: Adam and Karen McNutt. So I'm guessing that those probably
Speaker 3: weren't their real names. But just the fact that the incident,
Speaker 3: you know, the way the incident is described is it
Speaker 3: seems pretty significant to me because I would guess that
Speaker 3: the process didn't do this on only one occasion. I
Speaker 3: think this probably happened a lot. We get some pretty
Speaker 3: spooky accounts of well you like Peter Straub wrote about
Speaker 3: a New Orleans incident in the novel ghost Story, which
Speaker 3: didn't make it into the film unfortunately. But that's that's
Speaker 3: part of what I cover in that substay.
Speaker 2: You know, I'll kind of put a pin in that.
Speaker 2: But I am interested in your analysis because I didn't
Speaker 2: read the book, but I'm interested in your analysis and
Speaker 2: what was included in what was not included there. But
Speaker 2: it's interesting about the mcnuts. I often look into that myself.
Speaker 2: After reading your article. It's the first I heard of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really It's one of those things that when
Speaker 3: when we got the files that it jumped out at me.
Speaker 3: But a lot all of the Mickey Rose slash Jesse
Speaker 3: Turner files are really interesting because he knew firsthand about
Speaker 3: this process stuff, and then later in New York he
Speaker 3: became friends with Michael Carr. But yeah, I would recommend
Speaker 3: everybody go and read the files at the people versus
Speaker 3: David Burklewitz dot com.
Speaker 2: And I'll get a link in their description for that too.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting you said that he knew about details
Speaker 2: of the cult. And again, that's what's most telling to
Speaker 2: me about tonight's movie review, is Peter Strob when he
Speaker 2: wrote that book clearly new details of this cold activity.
Speaker 2: I mean wrote that nineteen seventy eight, right, because Burke
Speaker 2: which is arrested in August tenth or seventy seven, and
Speaker 2: Stroub publishes this in January first of seventy nine, so
Speaker 2: you know, less than eighteen months.
Speaker 3: That's right, And I think that's what's so important about
Speaker 3: the novel, And welln't a lot of other Straub's work too,
Speaker 3: because there are references to this stuff sprinkled throughout virtually
Speaker 3: every book he ever wrote, you know, right up to
Speaker 3: the end. But he what's so important about it is
Speaker 3: it's an entirely separate confirmation that this cult activity actually happened.
Speaker 3: It's a totally separate confirmation of the existence of the
Speaker 3: Ankor's cult because as far as we know, Stroud never
Speaker 3: had any contact with Maury Terry, and this novel was
Speaker 3: published long long before Maury wrote The Ultimate Evil. He
Speaker 3: was just putting his work together in a few newspaper
Speaker 3: articles at that time. So just as Maury was really
Speaker 3: getting into writing about this stuff in newspaper form, Stroud
Speaker 3: had already published an entire novel that just page after
Speaker 3: page references members of the cult, Westchester place names, other
Speaker 3: place names that were connected to the cult and its membership.
Speaker 3: It's really spooky because yes, Stroud clearly had a first
Speaker 3: hand source for all this stuff. And really I think
Speaker 3: the only question is who was his source. But it's
Speaker 3: it's very it's very disturbing when you when you start
Speaker 3: to you know, the references really pile up after a while.
Speaker 4: Do you think he was involved in Nicole himself?
Speaker 3: I want you know where. I think that there's at
Speaker 3: least one clue to where he might have found out
Speaker 3: about this. He dedicates the novel to a couple of
Speaker 3: different people. What are their names here? Valley shioh s
Speaker 3: h a Io and Gregori O cahoone. Those were they?
Speaker 3: They weren't married at the time, but they married later.
Speaker 3: They're both psychotherapists, but they're both Tavistock already laying alumni.
Speaker 3: So yeah, the fact that he doesn't know, Yeah, that
Speaker 3: seems to provide a clue as to where he might
Speaker 3: have obtained some of this information book though He's like,
Speaker 3: it feels that way. Unfortunately I can't.
Speaker 2: He dedicated this book to the Tavistock to.
Speaker 3: Two Tavistock alumni, Yeah, Gregorio Cahana Valley Shio. And he
Speaker 3: named his daughter Emma. One of her middle names is Valley.
Speaker 3: So he apparently these folks were good enough friends with
Speaker 3: with him and his family that that he named his
Speaker 3: daughter after Valley Shio. So it gives you something to
Speaker 3: think about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've located the epicenter of activity between Peter Strobe
Speaker 2: and the processed church cold activity via.
Speaker 4: The town books are fullish ship what well.
Speaker 3: I hated to find it out because I love his books.
Speaker 3: I mean, he there's no writer I love more than
Speaker 3: I mean, he was a brilliant storyteller, just an amazing writer.
Speaker 3: So I almost found it upsetting when I always knew
Speaker 3: there was something about ghost story, because all these links
Speaker 3: just kind of pop up at you. But but to
Speaker 3: the extent that it is, especially in that book, it
Speaker 3: really does. Once you sit down to think about it,
Speaker 3: it really is. It's disturbing.
Speaker 4: Well, there's no music I love more than the Laurel
Speaker 4: Canyon scene.
Speaker 3: It's the same way with that. It's just like so
Speaker 3: much of what you listen to and read you look
Speaker 3: at it and say, oh my god, all this stuff
Speaker 3: is connected to this, these horrible programs. But but yeah,
Speaker 3: the links unfortunately there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, our spot on. I got a couple, I got
Speaker 2: a couple of things on.
Speaker 4: Gradually, I said, who doesn't love the Beatles their Tavistock.
Speaker 2: Then there you go. I wasn't gonna say the Beatles
Speaker 2: were closed because I was gonna say Rolling Stones. I
Speaker 2: got a couple details on Deckford tonight's tale that include
Speaker 2: these some of these bands like like the Stones, right,
Speaker 2: the Process and Stones, or the Processing and Beatles for
Speaker 2: that matter, or the British Invasion. What what really was
Speaker 2: that British invasion? Right right?
Speaker 3: Well? Yeah, yeah, particularly with the Beatles because that was
Speaker 3: the one that that was their flagship group. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I agree because you got Jane Asher, who's Paul
Speaker 2: McCartney's girlfriend and her brother is confirmed member and owner
Speaker 2: of the in a good coffee shop there in the
Speaker 2: Mayfair district of London where the Beatles are convening, and
Speaker 2: John Mutioco. And it's funny because Peter Asher goes on
Speaker 2: to be a major Hollywood music producer involved in the
Speaker 2: Diddy scandal, just saying and their cousin, their first cousin
Speaker 2: is I believe she's still alive there at the UH
Speaker 2: the processed Mothership and canab Utah she's a foundal member.
Speaker 6: Yes.
Speaker 4: So do you feel like they put aspects of like
Speaker 4: the important aspects from the book into the movie because
Speaker 4: there I did have a few questions about one or
Speaker 4: two things I picked up on from the movie. But
Speaker 4: do you feel like they left some of it out?
Speaker 2: I think Madge's interrojectal quick, Julie cau we put a
Speaker 2: pen in that real quick. That's one we'll get. We'll
Speaker 2: do the story here one second. I's want to close
Speaker 2: out these one more blog.
Speaker 4: Entry with John if you don't know, okay, sure, sure, So.
Speaker 2: Relative to this entry, John and I think that I
Speaker 2: think I found most intriguing, is my opinion. The first
Speaker 2: investigator into the process was Jim Garrison, the New Orleans
Speaker 2: District attorney. Based on his own you know, work and whatnot.
Speaker 2: When you're saying this, that stuff with the mcnut situation
Speaker 2: was popping off from the early seventies. He was running
Speaker 2: office in seventy three there in New Orleans. So I
Speaker 2: think that's an interesting time for him to look at
Speaker 2: around those activities in that, you know, relative to your
Speaker 2: McNutt mystery. You know, I think there is some other
Speaker 2: activities going on in New Orleans that may in fact
Speaker 2: be you know, interesting things to uncover.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, there was a lot happening down there, and things
Speaker 3: were happening in Yonkers at the same time, a lot
Speaker 3: of children were disappearing.
Speaker 2: So yeah, very interesting. So the quick quick highlight of
Speaker 2: we can on these before we do the film review, John,
Speaker 2: the true scope of this understand what what do you
Speaker 2: mean by the true scope?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's that's Walter Brown's mugshot or Ace Brown,
Speaker 3: the notorious Yonkers and he a lot of what we
Speaker 3: know about these other aspects of the case comes from Walter.
Speaker 3: And he he knew all these other people. He knew
Speaker 3: Sue Conway and all these important uh uh, you know,
Speaker 3: major figures in the Yonkers cult.
Speaker 2: And if I may, he also knew a lot of
Speaker 2: other folks, like he connects to the Dean Coral situation.
Speaker 2: But I'm not mistaken, right right, Julia, do you familiar
Speaker 2: with that? Uh, what's Coral. Yeah, what's the guy in
Speaker 2: the between those two Philip Pasky, Yeah, Norton maybe what's
Speaker 2: his name?
Speaker 4: Oh, you're talking about the guy with the pedo island
Speaker 4: Norman Norman.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, so well Norman's associates with I think Jasey
Speaker 2: and Coral, if I'm.
Speaker 4: Not mistaken, and also John Norman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look at in a minute, and I don't want
Speaker 2: to get too diverted, but this dude is connected to
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff, is he not. He was connected
Speaker 2: to a different pedo network.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, yep, it was uh a network coming out
Speaker 4: of Dallas that they were all connected to.
Speaker 2: That moved to Chicago, right, because Norman moved to Dallas.
Speaker 2: Then goes He's like the next day he's got a
Speaker 2: whole new ten thousand note cards full of customers and
Speaker 2: clients in this Chicago.
Speaker 4: That is correct, Yep, that is correct.
Speaker 2: So I apologize there the distracted there, John, if you
Speaker 2: if you may continue on about your uh your blog post.
Speaker 2: You're about East Brown, because he is a very important character,
Speaker 2: is he not?
Speaker 3: Yeah? He was. He was when Maury typed up what
Speaker 3: he called his flipper list, when Yonkers had sort of
Speaker 3: uneasily reopened the case in the mid nineties. The people
Speaker 3: that Mary felt they needed to flip to get the
Speaker 3: case to a grand jury were well, Ace Brown was
Speaker 3: number one, Sue Conway was number two. She's my sort
Speaker 3: of pet suspect. I'm fascinated by her. I've done a
Speaker 3: lot of research on her. And then so many other
Speaker 3: people that were associated with the Yonker's Cult even before
Speaker 3: the Process came into the picture, they were on that
Speaker 3: list too.
Speaker 2: And well, so this was you're saying, this was a
Speaker 2: you know, like a pre existing operation that the Process
Speaker 2: kind of co opted the right.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, the Yonker's Cult had been there for many years,
Speaker 3: and they apparently, well, the Process started to call the
Speaker 3: shots in the late sixties or early seventies. And so
Speaker 3: by the early seventies when all these kids are starting
Speaker 3: to disappear, primarily from the Graham School and Orphanage in Hastings,
Speaker 3: which is a neighboring towns, it's the Process who's controlling
Speaker 3: the action by that time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were, if I if I'm hearing you currently,
Speaker 2: they were after orphans.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they've from what John Carr told Paul Raine Eery,
Speaker 3: they took a lot of children from the gram School
Speaker 3: because they were orphans and they John's rationale for the
Speaker 3: cult doing that was that the kids wouldn't be missed.
Speaker 3: Nobody really tried to keep track of them, even the
Speaker 3: school didn't try to find out what had happened to
Speaker 3: the kids.
Speaker 4: Much like the Franklin scandal. Yeah, with the boys town.
Speaker 3: It's like that. Yeah, just convenient disappearances of kids that
Speaker 3: nobody really cares about. It is trying to take care
Speaker 3: of it. It's it's really it's sad.
Speaker 2: Save pat or behavior. Right, Yeah, what's that? What's that?
Speaker 4: Julia I said they love orphanages.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2: Oh well yeah, it's lack of accountability, right, No one's
Speaker 2: paying attention. So I like that you've quot you highlighted this,
Speaker 2: so like this, Brown said in December of nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 2: it's a direct quotation for Mauric's files. Ace Brown said,
Speaker 2: I was told kids were buried there, referring to Untramer
Speaker 2: Park and Yonkers. And he's not the only person to
Speaker 2: say that, is he.
Speaker 3: That's right. Multiple witnesses or sources told police the same thing.
Speaker 3: Sue Conway said that too. She said she heard that
Speaker 3: kids were buried there. I would imagine she presided over
Speaker 3: at least some of those sacrifices and burials firsthand, because
Speaker 3: that's the kind of person she was.
Speaker 2: But yeah, Conway, yeah yeah, And.
Speaker 3: Multiple sources told the police that same thing, that children
Speaker 3: had been sacrificed in rituals and then buried in the park.
Speaker 3: That's true.
Speaker 2: Interesting, And Sue Conway met in early demise.
Speaker 3: Right, well, no, she.
Speaker 2: That's the one that that's when they died of cancer.
Speaker 2: I always play a guessing game with you, John, Who's
Speaker 2: who's a lie? She was?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, she Sue. She was apparently was very ill
Speaker 3: in the years leading up to her death. But she
Speaker 3: had she had lived really hard. You know, a lot
Speaker 3: of a lot of drugs, a lot of alcohol.
Speaker 2: But she.
Speaker 3: Two thousand or early two, I forget what. I think
Speaker 3: it was January of two thousand and Uh. Yes, she
Speaker 3: was something else. She really is. She's kind of a
Speaker 3: movie under herself.
Speaker 2: So let me ask you all this. This is John
Speaker 2: David David Norman, the the Deadler Fellow operation from Dallas
Speaker 2: to Chicago, who's a saysions with Phil Pasky, who worked
Speaker 2: for John Wayne Gacy and Ace Brown apparently ties into
Speaker 2: Norman from my understanding as well, and there and that
Speaker 2: they have links. And isn't it interesting that John Mnieri
Speaker 2: would know uh, would would be familiar with uh Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 2: and Dahmer and Gasey both had uh you know uh
Speaker 2: uh recruited their victims from the same gay club. What
Speaker 2: is this weird? You see these weird epicenters of act.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a lot of details. I understand a
Speaker 2: lot of Ann's couple, what have you, But it seems
Speaker 2: like all these people know each other and I know
Speaker 2: what they say, we don't know each other, but it
Speaker 2: seems like all these part of network.
Speaker 4: I'm just telling John that before we got started today
Speaker 4: that all of these assholes are part of a network,
Speaker 4: and there's multiple assailants they but all the crimes get
Speaker 4: blamed on one guy. He's like the scapegoat guy. But
Speaker 4: there are there are so many people who are getting
Speaker 4: away with it and then their crimes just get attributed
Speaker 4: to Let's say one John Wayne gase you are one
Speaker 4: Dean Coral, one Jeffrey Dahmer. But there are several weirdo
Speaker 4: kid diddling, pedophilic, cannibalistic serial killers amongst us. And most
Speaker 4: of the time we don't even know who they are.
Speaker 2: You ain't kid, and Julia, you ain't kidding.
Speaker 3: Yep, It's true, And there has to be a network.
Speaker 3: It just doesn't make sense any other way.
Speaker 4: One hundred yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know I like a network that may be
Speaker 2: like covered up under the auspices of national security.
Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, because in the ben Rose case, the CIA
Speaker 3: pleated national security. They say, we don't have to testify
Speaker 3: before this committee. So that was the end of them,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: And how is that any different than the current Epstein
Speaker 2: situation with matters of national security?
Speaker 3: Right right? Right?
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. I can't even tell you how much
Speaker 4: I love being on a panel with people who know
Speaker 4: what the fact they're talking about.
Speaker 2: Well, you're you know, you're always welcome here in Operations
Speaker 2: C C. D. And John is as well. So I
Speaker 2: appreciate both your all time and and the folks of innerwebs.
Speaker 2: And I got one more. We'll close out actually with
Speaker 2: the death Mask murder if you don't mind, John will
Speaker 2: just jump into the ghost story right because you did
Speaker 2: this blog post, which is what motivated me to You
Speaker 2: brought it, You brought these things in my attention to
Speaker 2: be a conversation and this blog post, and it might
Speaker 2: have even me to put this panel together tonight and
Speaker 2: to watch the film. And I do appreciate you, sir,
Speaker 2: because I did enjoy the film. I didn't wasn't like again,
Speaker 2: it's not really my genre, so you know, I didn't
Speaker 2: expect to enjoy it as much as I do.
Speaker 3: It's interesting because there are some things in there that
Speaker 3: are her important items from the book that did make
Speaker 3: it into the movie.
Speaker 2: There you go, let's start there, because I know Julia
Speaker 2: had those same questions for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, What did survive were the strangeness of the
Speaker 3: villain or the villain s who is played by Alice Kreese.
Speaker 3: I think she's the single best part of the movie
Speaker 3: because all the strange stuff that happens in the book,
Speaker 3: the really creepy stuff Alice Kreese transmits through her performance.
Speaker 3: I don't know if she ever actually read the book,
Speaker 3: but she's she's the thing in the in the film
Speaker 3: that is most like the novel. So she's her performance
Speaker 3: is really interesting.
Speaker 2: So that's interesting they would leave that out of the book.
Speaker 2: That's a great comment there. Appreciate that there because the
Speaker 2: fuzz one was another party who witnessed these activities, and
Speaker 2: that's right, another independent you know, recollection and accounts of
Speaker 2: these same uh, murderous and ritualistic activities of things being things,
Speaker 2: people being buried in around these parks.
Speaker 3: Right right, that's right, And I the testimony is really overwhelmed.
Speaker 3: I mean, something happened in under my park. People were
Speaker 3: killed there, people died in that park, and the only
Speaker 3: thing that that stopped the investigation was the fact that
Speaker 3: the police and Yonkers evidently felt that an investigation would
Speaker 3: lead right back to their doorstep, and they were worried
Speaker 3: about their own skins, so they shut down the investigation.
Speaker 4: So it does remind me also of the Finders, because
Speaker 4: they were spotted numerous times in parks, taking kids, kids
Speaker 4: in vans, kids being transported god knows where.
Speaker 2: But also, well, Julia, those are matters of national security.
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, the Finders, well.
Speaker 3: Too.
Speaker 4: John's point about Alice Kreeg is that how you say
Speaker 4: her last name.
Speaker 3: I've heard it pronounce creege, but then I've heard it
Speaker 3: preese various ways, so I'm never sure which one is.
Speaker 3: I just settled on one, but it may not be
Speaker 3: the correct one.
Speaker 4: She's awesome in this movie. I would agree with you.
Speaker 4: She's the creepiest aspect of the entire movie. She's She's
Speaker 4: actually in several horror movies. I think that's just her genre.
Speaker 4: She's most recently in a couple of Star Trek movies,
Speaker 4: I think. But so, she was super hot in this movie,
Speaker 4: proverbial hot eighties chick in this movie. But there was
Speaker 4: like this weird I don't know if it was like
Speaker 4: this in the book, but she almost seemed like a
Speaker 4: witch or something throughout the.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's what's so great about her performance because
Speaker 3: it you get the now in the book, the character
Speaker 3: that she plays in the film, she's much more than
Speaker 3: just a person who has been reincarnated or whatever. She
Speaker 3: has a history, and she has it with these old
Speaker 3: men in the chatter society. And they never come right
Speaker 3: out and say that there's an additional history in the film,
Speaker 3: but just the subtlety of her performance gives you the
Speaker 3: impression that there's more history there. Like that scene where
Speaker 3: she's holding her head under the water in the back,
Speaker 3: it's just so we and that's so much like the
Speaker 3: character in the book, you know, just inexplicably odd and
Speaker 3: like to the point where the boyfriend is like, his
Speaker 3: nerves are so shaky that he just he almost can't
Speaker 3: be in the same room with her anymore.
Speaker 4: Yeah, gives you the creeps, and he's like, you know,
Speaker 4: just touch her, even her skin feels cold. You know,
Speaker 4: there's just like this weird witch, witchy thing. Yes about her.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and so.
Speaker 2: Was that not in the go ahead? Was that was
Speaker 2: that great? Go ahead?
Speaker 3: Oh? I was just gonna say that is she fortunately
Speaker 3: or unfortunately that character had a real life counterpart, And
Speaker 3: that was.
Speaker 2: What I was going to ask you.
Speaker 3: That's what's so spooky. And you find that there's a
Speaker 3: photo comparison of Sue from its two photos a decade apart.
Speaker 3: But you see in the latter photo of Sue with
Speaker 3: the long brown hair, I think you see a lot
Speaker 3: of Eva Galley Alma mobile Anna Mosstin in that photo
Speaker 3: of her. And in fact, even in the book, physically
Speaker 3: that character the description of her is obviously modeled on
Speaker 3: Sue Conway. I think Stroud must have met her at
Speaker 3: some point, but I can't confirm that, but he definitely
Speaker 3: saw photos over her and she was she was the
Speaker 3: model for Eva almah Anna in the book and the film.
Speaker 3: Do you think the real right she Yeah, the picture
Speaker 3: of her is there.
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, do you think the real
Speaker 4: person to Conway? You think she's a witch? You think
Speaker 4: she's sent to some dark ship?
Speaker 3: She was, Yeah, she was. She was. There was a
Speaker 3: source who when Maury did an Unsolved Mystery segment about
Speaker 3: the Son of Sam back in the late eighties, a
Speaker 3: source called the Unsolved Mysteries UH hotline thereafter and referred
Speaker 3: to her as he said, I knew people who knew her.
Speaker 3: She literally was the high priestess of the cult, that's
Speaker 3: what they called her. So she yeah, she was. She
Speaker 3: was actually into all that stuff, and she was serious
Speaker 3: about I.
Speaker 4: Knew it, dude, I knew it. Just the way that
Speaker 4: they traded in the movie. There was like some weird
Speaker 4: witchy thing about her. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Because there's like a mind control aspect too, right with
Speaker 2: the two right before I don't want to go too far,
Speaker 2: and before we get to all the characters, there's a
Speaker 2: mind she's got some sort of spell over some some
Speaker 2: some hood rats, right, that's right, that's right, some hoodlums, you.
Speaker 3: Will, And there she is that that second photo. I
Speaker 3: believe you a lot of what's strange about that character
Speaker 3: in the book. In the film, you see in Sue's
Speaker 3: photo there she she she really was something else. She was.
Speaker 3: She made an impression on a lot of people.
Speaker 2: I agree, the resemblance is uncanny.
Speaker 7: From the film, Yeah, well she I think I think
Speaker 7: one of the things they did look for in the
Speaker 7: film when they were auditioning people for the role of
Speaker 7: Eva of Almah was somebody with that long, straight hair.
Speaker 3: Somehow that is integral to the whole character. If you
Speaker 3: had had somebody with short hair or something, it wouldn't
Speaker 3: have worked for whatever reason. It's that kind of hair
Speaker 3: just goes with all the other aspects of the character
Speaker 3: for for whatever reason.
Speaker 8: I also in the film, she has the eyes, like
Speaker 8: look at the eyes, right, Yeah, well, I was gonna
Speaker 8: say it's and it's the same color eyes.
Speaker 2: I mean, they're the same kind of they have the
Speaker 2: same shape if you will.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, Yeah, there's something about the eyes too. It's
Speaker 4: like they picked her because she could. She can almost
Speaker 4: put you in a trance just looking at her, you
Speaker 4: know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I think she did, man, I think she did. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's intriguing. So let's do a quick since we're going
Speaker 2: over kind of the characters. Let's go back and revisit
Speaker 2: the storyline we're dealing with here. Would you like to
Speaker 2: to explain the synopsis? And and uh, you know, however
Speaker 2: you see it, They're they're gentle. Would like me to
Speaker 2: read it from the Wikipedia, the source of all information
Speaker 2: on the interwebs.
Speaker 3: Sure, I can. I can synopsize it just briefly.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 3: Sure. In the novel, it's a fictional, allegedly fictional town
Speaker 3: called Milburn. It's supposed to be in upstate New York.
Speaker 3: In the film, if if I remember correctly, they don't
Speaker 3: actually name the city, but it was filmed in Vermont somewhere.
Speaker 2: What I believe is from from my understanding, what's like
Speaker 2: one of the locations one of them.
Speaker 3: And there was a real town square that they used.
Speaker 3: But a lot of the backgrounds you see are just
Speaker 3: like really elaborate matte paintings, which is another thing that
Speaker 3: I really like about the movie, really really beautiful backgrounds.
Speaker 3: I forget who the painter was, and I'm sorry about
Speaker 3: that because he deserves a lot of credit. But uh,
Speaker 3: the the town is it's supposed to be like a
Speaker 3: little sleepy small town, you know, and there there's a
Speaker 3: group of older men, affluent men. A couple of attorneys.
Speaker 3: That's Sears James and Ricky Hawthorne. There's a doctor, or
Speaker 3: is he I think he's he's thinking about retirement, but
Speaker 3: he's he's technically still in business. That's doctor John Jeffrey.
Speaker 3: And there's the mayor of the town. And this is
Speaker 3: slightly different because in the book there were five characters
Speaker 3: and in the film there are four characters. So they
Speaker 3: rolled two of the characters into one another. And the
Speaker 3: mayor is that's Douglas Fairbanks character. He's he's ned right,
Speaker 3: that's uh and and I believe he's he's the first
Speaker 3: one to go in the film. But these men all
Speaker 3: share ghost stories with each other. They get together in
Speaker 3: formal evening where one Friday night out of every month,
Speaker 3: and they tell each other ghost stories. But they're doing
Speaker 3: this to cover the real story that they're actually afraid
Speaker 3: of and that they're afraid to talk about with each other.
Speaker 3: And that story unfolds gradually, you know, throughout the course
Speaker 3: of the film. But they they all share a terrible secret.
Speaker 3: Something happened to them all one evening when they were
Speaker 3: very young in the late nineteen twenties, and that's uh,
Speaker 3: that event comes back to haunt them, and that's that's
Speaker 3: what the book and the film are about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like it's got an interesting dynamico. That's
Speaker 2: a good explanation, I sir, I appreciate it. That's sure.
Speaker 2: That One of the things I found interesting was this
Speaker 2: this towing between reality. What is reality and what is
Speaker 2: not reality? Like what's hallucination? Right, and what's causing these
Speaker 2: dusts and what's not called like is it an external
Speaker 2: force or is an internal force in their nightmares of
Speaker 2: their heart attacks? Right?
Speaker 3: Right? Right?
Speaker 2: Tows that line pretty well, it does, it.
Speaker 3: Does because that that's uh, I believe in. In the
Speaker 3: book and the film, somebody sees the first casualty jumping
Speaker 3: off the bridge, so uh, and then another one later
Speaker 3: dies of a heart attack. So there are things that
Speaker 3: could be chalked up to just mental distress or physical illness,
Speaker 3: and nobody really suspects what's actually happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the film starts off that's a good good
Speaker 2: point there, And the film starts off with the first
Speaker 2: death we get there is the son of one of
Speaker 2: these characters, right, that's right, that's right, And we're forced
Speaker 2: to see his dick because he's falling out a building.
Speaker 3: Some terrible Yeah. Yeah, and that's an odd.
Speaker 2: I wasn't expecting the full dick shot. I was kind
Speaker 2: of again angry that I was subjected to this, especially
Speaker 2: with that woman.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, that that is probably the weirdest shot
Speaker 3: in the whole movie, just because you're not expecting it.
Speaker 2: There's no reason, there's no point in it right in there,
Speaker 2: but yeah, yeah, it's pointless. And then they show the
Speaker 2: body flop. I'm like, well, did we have to do
Speaker 2: the flop too? Like the bounce?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess it was one of those moments that
Speaker 3: they just wanted it to be a you know, a
Speaker 3: deliberate shock to the audience.
Speaker 2: You know, well that there you go and say, and
Speaker 2: it does too. It grasped your attention because of that
Speaker 2: that shock factor. For sure. It got me good. And
Speaker 2: I'm like, who, motherfuckers, did you guys just show me
Speaker 2: a dick and a dude bouncing off the pavement? What's
Speaker 2: wrong with you? That was my immediate reaction. I was like,
Speaker 2: how processing of you folks to do that? Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well that that definitely is the point in the
Speaker 3: movie where you know that really terrible things are going
Speaker 3: to happen throughout the rest of it. So, yeah, it
Speaker 3: does have that.
Speaker 2: It does set the stage properly correct. Yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 2: I'm now that'll be related the groundwork there on the
Speaker 2: plot line. I just want to I just want to
Speaker 2: ask you this one question before we go any further
Speaker 2: in the characters and whatnot and how this thing's unfold.
Speaker 2: There was a nineteen seventy four film also name Ghost Story.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, Storry mary Anne Faithful.
Speaker 3: That's interesting.
Speaker 4: I'm not familiar with it, but is it the same story.
Speaker 2: No, it's not the same story, but it's interesting. There's
Speaker 2: some interesting aspects to it, at the least of which Marianne.
Speaker 4: Faithful she's process.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she and Mick Jagger both and all the browing stones.
Speaker 2: In fact, John and I discussed an interesting murder rounding
Speaker 2: these these folks in Westchester County, you know that Dean
Speaker 2: of Inequity north of New York City. Last time we
Speaker 2: discussed this because we discussed the the and John, I'll
Speaker 2: have more details for a Julia is that But it's
Speaker 2: the Keith Richard's domestic wife or girlfriend related murder, right, John.
Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, Anita Pallenberg. Yeah, but all those folks
Speaker 3: they did the process that they were just like the
Speaker 3: father Church Scientology. They courted celebrities and you know the process.
Speaker 3: They went after the younger, hipper versions of celebrities that
Speaker 3: you know, just just like the Scientology did, you know,
Speaker 3: more established you know, like yeah, room stars and stuff.
Speaker 3: But yeah, and Marianne Faithful in particular, I believe she
Speaker 3: she got pretty cozy with with the Processed Church, I believe,
Speaker 3: mmmmm yeah.
Speaker 2: And then Keith Richards's wife, they're murdered a fifteen year old.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, a gun went off when she was in
Speaker 2: bed naked with a fifteen year old, is that right?
Speaker 3: That is correct? Yeah, he was in her bed and
Speaker 3: his name was Scott Cantrell and he she she got
Speaker 3: off for that whole thing very very easily, and I
Speaker 3: know that the boys family were very upset about that.
Speaker 3: But it was a very strange incident for.
Speaker 4: Sure, due a gun went off accidentally. Is that the story?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, she claims that he was he was playing
Speaker 3: Russian Roulette, that he was upset and suicidal and that
Speaker 3: he you know, he's just the gun went off and
Speaker 3: he shot himself, but it doesn't appear that the circumstances
Speaker 3: were ever examined too closely in court to me anyway.
Speaker 2: Sure, wow, and this was nineteen eighty, seventy nine or
Speaker 2: eighty or something like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: Yep. So after after Burka, which this is again this
Speaker 2: falls into the post son of Sam called activity in
Speaker 2: around that didn't of an equity Westchester County.
Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, Sue.
Speaker 4: Do you think I think this secret society as they
Speaker 4: call it, quote unquote in the book Slash movie is
Speaker 4: based on anything real because they call themselves the Chowder
Speaker 4: Society like.
Speaker 3: They just about that because there were there was a
Speaker 3: group of allegedly in the cult during the fifties and sixties.
Speaker 3: There were a lot of figures of that type involved
Speaker 3: in the cult. There were doctors and attorneys and judges,
Speaker 3: and so it could refer loosely to some of those individuals.
Speaker 3: We know the names of some of them, and when
Speaker 3: he was writing the Chowter Society, yet it could have
Speaker 3: referred to some of those established community members. I think
Speaker 3: that's very likely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll recognize one of those names, Julia Carlton Gadgetsek.
Speaker 2: You know that one.
Speaker 4: Now, who's this asshole?
Speaker 2: Oh John, please please let her know who Anthony Fauci's ssidekick,
Speaker 2: Carlton Gadgertak was relative to the Ankers cult.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he well, he won a Nobel Prize for medicine
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy six something like that. And he was
Speaker 3: born in Yonkers, but spent a lot of time outside
Speaker 3: there researching strange diseases in or was he on some
Speaker 3: of the Micronesian islands or someplace?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he brought yeah, Micronesia. He brought about fifty young
Speaker 2: boys back with him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was very interested in boys. And when when
Speaker 3: the Son of Sam case was reopened by Yonkers police department,
Speaker 3: gadget sick became he was a person of interest and
Speaker 3: then some and he eventually was convicted of child molestations,
Speaker 3: served a boy a year in prison, then got out,
Speaker 3: retreated to Europe and died over there. He he was
Speaker 3: a strange character, and according to multiple sources, he was
Speaker 3: present for very specific cultic activities, including allegedly the the
Speaker 3: sacrifice of a child.
Speaker 4: So yeah, god, yeah, why does he look like the
Speaker 4: composite sketch of the Zodiac killer.
Speaker 3: He was a creepy guy. And there's there's a film
Speaker 3: where they an interview film where they talked to him,
Speaker 3: and he's he's very He just totally denied reality it,
Speaker 3: could not admit that he had done anything wrong. But
Speaker 3: he Wow. David Berkowitz was aware of doctor Gadgetsik because
Speaker 3: he was a He was a major figure in youngers there.
Speaker 4: And he Yeah.
Speaker 2: From nineteen seventy to nineteen ninety six, Carlton Gadgasik was
Speaker 2: the chief of the Laboratory of Central Nervous System Studies
Speaker 2: that ni in DS at the National Institutes of Health,
Speaker 2: working directly for none other than Tony Felt.
Speaker 4: Oh my god. And they were probably boyfriends him and
Speaker 4: you can do it, that little fairy fuck I hate fauci,
Speaker 4: I swear.
Speaker 2: So you may know. Carlton gad your sex nephew. He
Speaker 2: brought us the first season of Stranger Things.
Speaker 4: Ah, stop it make up? Oh, come on, you guys.
Speaker 4: This guy's neph what'd you say is nephew?
Speaker 2: I believe if I'm not mistaken, this is his brother's son.
Speaker 4: Yes, Oh my god, come on.
Speaker 2: He was the chief chief writer and showrunner for season
Speaker 2: one of Stranger Things.
Speaker 4: Just saying, oh my God, probably just.
Speaker 2: A crazier thing. Yeah, totally a coincidence. Stranger things. Indeed,
Speaker 2: I'm sure's behind all of that.
Speaker 4: Oh so fucking god, do.
Speaker 2: That just blow up your brain hole there, Julia.
Speaker 4: Both of you guys are blowing up my brain hole
Speaker 4: in here. I thought I knew something.
Speaker 2: That's well, you do know stuff. That's what I like
Speaker 2: to do here. We like to exchange ideas. You know, well,
Speaker 2: we all have a different piece of the puzzle. I
Speaker 2: feel like, not to make it sound creepy or nothing,
Speaker 2: but it is a It is a puzzle of sorts, right,
Speaker 2: it is. I heard it in a song one time.
Speaker 2: I think it was the beginning of the show The
Speaker 2: World's a Puzzle. So I don't know why they called
Speaker 2: this ghost story, but they yeah. I mean, it doesn't
Speaker 2: have the same you know, plotlines or nothing, but it
Speaker 2: is an interesting story. And again it's just weird to me.
Speaker 2: It seems very processing when you got Homegirl in there, Mary,
Speaker 2: unfaithful and whatnot. But onto the actual ghost story, and
Speaker 2: that is the Peter Strub version. So besides Peter, let's
Speaker 2: start off with Peter Strub. So this dude writes this
Speaker 2: book again, Burke of which is arrested in August tenth
Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy seven. He publishes the book on January
Speaker 2: firth first of seventy nine, so let's call it he
Speaker 2: did this obviously within that seventeen month span. But I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, you pointed out how he's got he dedicated
Speaker 2: to Tavistock folks. That's a good indication of how he
Speaker 2: may know these tales. But what else is interesting about
Speaker 2: Peter Stroke Well.
Speaker 3: He ghost story in every book thereafter pretty much contains
Speaker 3: some reference to the Yonker's cult and its membership, all
Speaker 3: the way down to well, they have Mystery listed there
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety. By that time he was writing sort
Speaker 3: of like he had He wasn't writing harder novels any longer,
Speaker 3: but he was writing really really dark murder mysteries. And
Speaker 3: there's a minor character in mystery, a police officer, and
Speaker 3: his name is Officer Spahoa. It's phonetically that's yeah s
Speaker 3: P y c h A L l A. Now that's
Speaker 3: a very specific name because it's the name of a
Speaker 3: person who allegedly was at the planning meeting for Son
Speaker 3: of Sam in the spring of nineteen seventy six. His
Speaker 3: name was Ho. It's a it's a Polish name, so
Speaker 3: it's hard to pronounce correctly. But this Peter Strub used
Speaker 3: it as a character name many years before Ron Spachala
Speaker 3: was ever mentioned in the press in any public mention
Speaker 3: of Ron'spachala that I can find, but Strub used the
Speaker 3: name as a deliberate clue, just to let his readers
Speaker 3: know that he had not forgotten about all this strange
Speaker 3: stuff and that maybe one day somebody would figure out
Speaker 3: this this puzzle. So yeah, that's.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well he's so Tavis.
Speaker 3: It does that way. It's a hard conclusion to escape,
Speaker 3: but it Yeah.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that's too specific. I'm sorry, is its
Speaker 4: way too? It's too specific?
Speaker 3: Well, like I said, it's almost like finding a fingerprint.
Speaker 3: It's that definite, you know, it's hard to discount that.
Speaker 4: But yeah, John, what you need to start a podcast?
Speaker 2: Well, John, John's a wealth of information, isn't he, Julia, Yes.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: Well, strangely enough, and I'm glad we all find this
Speaker 3: so interesting, But I don't find a lot of interest
Speaker 3: in it within the community. It's just not one of
Speaker 3: those things that people seem to have caught onto really.
Speaker 4: I feel like this is one of the more interesting things.
Speaker 2: Well, if I made that, if I met you, guys
Speaker 2: are hitting on exactly why I'm doing these as occult
Speaker 2: esotic film reviews, because I think the one thing that
Speaker 2: the folks didn't understand is when they see a picture
Speaker 2: of these ideas and they can relate to a picture
Speaker 2: like it makes a lot more It makes a lot
Speaker 2: more sense to me when I see shit in a picture.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, absolutely, that's just me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: Julia, Are you special?
Speaker 2: As the pop ups? And I color them myself.
Speaker 4: Okay, I saw something on the Wikipedia page for the author,
Speaker 4: though I was going to ask John if he thought
Speaker 4: it was significant.
Speaker 2: Hang on, please pull it back up, please do stand
Speaker 2: by police. I don't even know what I was doing there.
Speaker 2: I was just cruising around my tabs, to be quite
Speaker 2: honest with you.
Speaker 4: Well, it looks like the first book. This isn't what
Speaker 4: I was going to ask. But first, right is my
Speaker 4: namesake Julia nineteen seventy five. But that's besides the point.
Speaker 4: It looks like he did some work for or with
Speaker 4: HP Lovecraft.
Speaker 2: And Stephen King.
Speaker 4: Stephen King.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he and Stephen King wrote two novels together, The
Speaker 3: Talisman and Black House. Black House. That's one of the
Speaker 3: rare moments in Straub's career that I just didn't It
Speaker 3: wasn't very good. But the Talisman is really good, the
Speaker 3: first book. I really enjoyed that one. I think he
Speaker 3: edited maybe a volume of HP Lovecraft stories for the
Speaker 3: Library of America, and unfortunately a lot of that stuff
Speaker 3: has gone out of print. But that was a really
Speaker 3: good series books.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I wonder what's in the Talisman.
Speaker 3: Well, there's a character. In fact, the main villain in
Speaker 3: that book is named Morgan Slote, and the surname Slope
Speaker 3: comes from a roommate of John Carrs when he was
Speaker 3: in the Air Force. Uh So, there's just one clue
Speaker 3: after another in his books, and it's well, isn't.
Speaker 4: There a Laurel Kenyon asshole? Last name Slopeman changed it
Speaker 4: to do you know how I'm talking about j J.
Speaker 2: Are you referring to Jim Morrison's kindergarten classmate, Gail Slopeman,
Speaker 2: who would later marry Frank Zappa.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and changed her last name. That's right, that's right,
Speaker 4: Gail Zappa formerly known Slopeman.
Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 4: She was. She was military, right, her family for sure,
Speaker 4: for sure, that's why she was in kindergarten with Morrison. Yeah. No,
Speaker 4: that that obviously two connections in my mind, because I
Speaker 4: think that they sneak little stuff like that. And Gail
Speaker 4: Slopeman somebody wrote it in the comments.
Speaker 2: Yep, there you go, Thank you folks with the interwebs.
Speaker 2: So these are interesting aspects. So with regards to spy Challa, like,
Speaker 2: I mean, you got to be in the know on
Speaker 2: that one, right, yeah, because that my understanding is like
Speaker 2: like you were pointing out, is like that dude was
Speaker 2: like you know, you know, no one really knew that name,
Speaker 2: Like that was one of the ones that minunderstanding. Mary
Speaker 2: kept close to the best even right he did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think Maury was right up to the end,
Speaker 3: he was trying to learn more about all these individuals
Speaker 3: because he knew they all fit into the larger picture.
Speaker 3: But Yalla was he's really you read about his history
Speaker 3: and some of this stuff is is just almost unimaginably awful.
Speaker 3: He's another one of these people. The reason all these
Speaker 3: people were there is that they hurt children. That that
Speaker 3: was the common thread, you know, because that that's ultimately
Speaker 3: what this cult was about. The son of Sam attacks themselves.
Speaker 3: I feel we're just the visible tip of a very
Speaker 3: large iceberg. In the case, was was way more complex
Speaker 3: than just the handful of of shooting attacks that people
Speaker 3: know about.
Speaker 4: Wait till you read Program to Kill. You're gonna you're
Speaker 4: gonna go so far down the rabbit hole. You're gonna
Speaker 4: be begging me and JJ to pull you back out.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's it's absolutely mind boggling. But I
Speaker 4: agree with you. I think children are a currency in
Speaker 4: these cults. They're traded, and they are used for blackmail,
Speaker 4: among other things, sacrificial.
Speaker 2: Well, there you go, right the way I look at it,
Speaker 2: the way I look it's the episode ride. I apologize
Speaker 2: and mean to.
Speaker 4: Cut you off, Julia, No, yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 2: I look at the epicenter of the activity of these
Speaker 2: spooky blackmail operations, and you know, I've read enough cruelly
Speaker 2: and I'll be going that on unpacking my satanic panic series.
Speaker 2: Literally again, I'm not trying to inform my own opinions, thoughts,
Speaker 2: or ideas against their judgmental on all these people. I'm
Speaker 2: using their words to describe these things. And there's a
Speaker 2: lot of kid diddling stuff that comes out of what
Speaker 2: people would call a religion. If they're Theelamites that I
Speaker 2: think intersects with all this thing that they're calling blackmail operations.
Speaker 4: Well you should talk to William Ramsey about the West
Speaker 4: Memphis three too, because that came out of the Satanic
Speaker 4: Panic and that was all weird Crowley worshiping short stuff.
Speaker 2: So, I mean, and I'll be using that as an
Speaker 2: example of my series, but I'm actually gonna be going
Speaker 2: over the cases and comparing the Satanic Panic around these
Speaker 2: major events, but using cases emphasized. This is a greater
Speaker 2: deal just like John's doing here in the Sun A
Speaker 2: Sam series. There's a greater number of cases that are
Speaker 2: not being depicted in the conversation because this is a
Speaker 2: larger pattern of behavior in the codect.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, well, I mean even in this movie. I
Speaker 4: think they reference in the movie uh something about occultism
Speaker 4: several times or like cult activity several times they do.
Speaker 2: And on that note is is this is this an
Speaker 2: accurate statement that we hear from the chat? I appreciate
Speaker 2: this statement there Wallhead Rex, so car was O t
Speaker 2: O O t O Roade Strub's attorney and Strub edited
Speaker 2: out the OTO reference.
Speaker 3: Strup did, in fact edit out a reference to the
Speaker 3: OTO in the original hardcover version. That's right.
Speaker 2: That's a fucking barn burner right there, folks.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he changes the name of the group to the XXX,
Speaker 3: which has a convoluted Latin it means something in Latin.
Speaker 3: But he changed the name in the paperback to the XXX.
Speaker 3: But he also rolls into that multiple references to the
Speaker 3: Processed Church. In fact, the villainous who is she keeps
Speaker 3: coming back with the initials a M. Those are just
Speaker 3: the initials of Marianna Grimston reversed. So there's a lot
Speaker 3: of cult references and their conscious references. But yes, that's true.
Speaker 2: Blown up a brain hole, John, you're blowing up a brain.
Speaker 3: Hole reference in in the in the original edition of
Speaker 3: the book.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And to the person who left that comment, uh way, Headrex?
Speaker 3: Is that? How?
Speaker 4: Whyhead Rex? Who the fuck are you? Why do you
Speaker 4: know so much? That was awesome? I mean, John obviously
Speaker 4: was gonna say, but still, that was awesome.
Speaker 2: I didn't Yeah, that's great stuff. I didn't know that
Speaker 2: at all. That's that's as I mean, it's an interesting
Speaker 2: aspect to understand when you you see the folks that
Speaker 2: get but hurt about their names appearing stuff. I had
Speaker 2: referenced earlier that creepy fellow Micha Lookino email and Dave
Speaker 2: McGowan saying how dare you and McGowan basically just laughing
Speaker 2: them off with.
Speaker 4: Facts, Yeah, with facts, literal facts like hello.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really glad that people are coming about these
Speaker 3: things because this is a discussion that that people have
Speaker 3: so seldom. I mean it, it's this stuff is almost
Speaker 3: never talked about, especially in relation to the fictional references
Speaker 3: to real life people and events. I just well, like
Speaker 3: I said earlier, it's so obviously a separate confirmation that
Speaker 3: the Yonkers case actually did happen, that this cult existed,
Speaker 3: But people within the community just aren't. They're not interested
Speaker 3: in it, really, at least not in my experience, because
Speaker 3: I try to generate this conversation over and over again,
Speaker 3: and it's just not really something that people appear to
Speaker 3: be interested in. It's it's just not on their radar
Speaker 3: for whatever reason.
Speaker 4: Well, I've found John, I'll give you my and I
Speaker 4: don't want a tangent or anything, but I just talked
Speaker 4: about this on a podcast recently, and you might agree
Speaker 4: or disagree, but I find it interesting that the willingness
Speaker 4: of people to listen to podcasts but not to read anything.
Speaker 4: They don't want to read a book. They don't want
Speaker 4: they don't want to look up information, they don't They
Speaker 4: want it to either be a Google away or in
Speaker 4: like some kind of a TikTok video or a podcast
Speaker 4: that they don't really have to like divulge too much
Speaker 4: of their attention.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right right. It's sad.
Speaker 4: It is sad, But I think that's why it's so cool,
Speaker 4: like when we can talk about it in podcast form.
Speaker 4: Because obviously I love to read. I don't have any
Speaker 4: problems sitting down and reading The Ultimate Evil or Program
Speaker 4: to Kill Strange Things from the Canyon. I have no
Speaker 4: problem doing that. The thing for me is I didn't
Speaker 4: want to make it digestible so I can take it
Speaker 4: onto a podcast platform and talk to people about it
Speaker 4: and get them interested in it who would have otherwise
Speaker 4: never read the book or taken the time to read
Speaker 4: the book. So I think, you know, book reading in
Speaker 4: itself is kind of like this dying art form is like, oh,
Speaker 4: what you read, you don't just listen to Joe Rogan
Speaker 4: and like download useless information, you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: So slight.
Speaker 2: I like your approach though, that's a pretty solid approaching
Speaker 2: out there. What you're saying, you're reading books and then
Speaker 2: trying to you know, instead of realizing folks don't read books,
Speaker 2: and then you try to digest that into a format.
Speaker 2: Then I did digestible podcast podcast.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, that's I mean, that's what I like to
Speaker 4: do on my show. That's why I think John would
Speaker 4: be successful at it, because it's obviously something that's very interesting,
Speaker 4: but people just don't want to read. Isn't that sad?
Speaker 4: People don't No one want to take the time.
Speaker 3: Well, on my substect, that's what I try to give
Speaker 3: it to people, like like you're talking about indigestible form,
Speaker 3: you know, you give them just a few paragraphs and
Speaker 3: hopefully it's not so complicated that it overwhelms them, but
Speaker 3: it gives them enough to think about and maybe that'll
Speaker 3: part their interest and then they'll go read a couple
Speaker 3: of books about it. But yeah, I felt like that
Speaker 3: was particularly important with stre because I kept asking people
Speaker 3: that they read the book and everybody said no, And
Speaker 3: I said, well, there's all this really bizarre stuff in
Speaker 3: it that relates directly to the case, and I just
Speaker 3: it was interesting to me anyways, so I started to
Speaker 3: dig deeper into it, and then it also correlated with it.
Speaker 3: I was really when I started doing research, I hated
Speaker 3: making phone calls to people. I just hated it because
Speaker 3: it made them feel weird and it made me feel weird.
Speaker 3: But I found that the more I did it, the
Speaker 3: more I found information from actual firsthand sources who corroborated
Speaker 3: the references to the cult that I found in Straub's work,
Speaker 3: to the point where this is one of the things
Speaker 3: that didn't make it into the film unfortunately. But in
Speaker 3: the novel, the Alice Kreese character, this Eva Gali Alma
Speaker 3: MOBILEI character. In one of her incarnation, she appears in
Speaker 3: a stage play and she's a big success, and everybody's
Speaker 3: fascinated with her, and they think, oh, wow, she's destined
Speaker 3: to go on to be a star of the stage
Speaker 3: and she's going to do a lot of great things
Speaker 3: when her but she abruptly disappears. Well, for the longest time,
Speaker 3: I've been reading this book for thirty five thirty six years.
Speaker 3: I read it every Halloween. I had no idea that
Speaker 3: that referred to a real life event. Well, I started
Speaker 3: doing newspaper research on Susanne Conway. She appeared in nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy five in a stage play, then left town very suddenly.
Speaker 3: At first I only knew about the play. Then I
Speaker 3: spoke to one of her fellow cast members in upstate
Speaker 3: New York and he tells me, well, you know, and
Speaker 3: I didn't tell him any of this stuff about ghost story,
Speaker 3: any of the rest of it, But he said, you know,
Speaker 3: I don't know what happened to Sue, because not long
Speaker 3: after she was in the place, she just up and
Speaker 3: left town, and everybody wondered about her. Nobody knew what
Speaker 3: happened to her. So it's a reference to the n
Speaker 3: Veronica More story in the novel, a direct reference. Uh So,
Speaker 3: the more research you do, the more you find out
Speaker 3: that all this stuff actually happened, and that so many
Speaker 3: of the events in the book make reference to real
Speaker 3: life events.
Speaker 4: Real life shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's a great blog piece. Specs. You definitely
Speaker 2: check this out. Isn't be in the show notes for
Speaker 2: folks to check out.
Speaker 4: Joe, doesn't Susan Conway remind you of Tuesday Weld a
Speaker 4: little bit.
Speaker 2: She plays a very similar role in the in this
Speaker 2: scene that I think is Tuesday well plays overall and
Speaker 2: especially in the Hollywood scene.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they're both like priestess level. Yeah, you know
Speaker 4: what I'm saying. You gotta look into Tuesday well if
Speaker 4: you haven't, John, because she's another rabbit hole that just
Speaker 4: never ends. But it's like the ones, the ones in
Speaker 4: these these cults who are actually the upper echelon, They
Speaker 4: actually get in a shielded or hidden or occulted from
Speaker 4: mainstream view, which I come on, are you said very interesting?
Speaker 4: What are you talking about?
Speaker 2: You mean to tell me people aren't how accountable for
Speaker 2: their activities? Is that around the right?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 3: What you mean?
Speaker 2: Is that what you want me to believe? I do
Speaker 2: want you now? That is the pattern time and time again. Right.
Speaker 4: Mm so this this uh in the in the movie
Speaker 4: actually too. I wanted to get your thoughts on this.
Speaker 2: May I just make a point on your book booking
Speaker 2: on your statement there, Juliet, relative to national security on
Speaker 2: our left and relative to process church folks who walk
Speaker 2: on our right. Cocaine Bob here walked on trafficking charges
Speaker 2: in cocaine in nineteen eighty no time, and he walked
Speaker 2: on murder charges in nineteen eighty eight of the Roy
Speaker 2: Raiden murder courtesy of Charles Manson's friend Ira Render, then
Speaker 2: LA District attorney and his co conspirator. There Old Cocaine
Speaker 2: Bob was the medi Ian cartels number one dude in
Speaker 2: America's wife. She just popped her husband six months prior
Speaker 2: to arrest with with with which Cocaine Bob was picked
Speaker 2: up for and was an unindicted co conspirator.
Speaker 4: But you know how many people know that you that's true?
Speaker 4: Like and like whoever is listening to this podcast right now,
Speaker 4: Well we.
Speaker 2: Gotta yeah say we got we got one hundred and
Speaker 2: seventy plus folks that are learning these things right now.
Speaker 2: So that's again, this is all right, definitely a barn burner.
Speaker 2: I appreciate. I just I got to bring in the
Speaker 2: Cocaine Bob factor in my back.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, I mean that.
Speaker 2: He's an I never leave.
Speaker 4: You cut out for like a second.
Speaker 2: The uh so, Yeah, I mean I just think you know, again,
Speaker 2: we're we're kind of drawing patterns of these activities and people,
Speaker 2: but you know, these people don't get hell accountable, do they.
Speaker 3: No, No, they really don't. There was a handful of
Speaker 3: people in the case of Son of Sam who were
Speaker 3: members or affiliates of the cult who died in odd ways,
Speaker 3: you know, in the few years after Burkewitz's arrest. But
Speaker 3: the people hire up the ladder. Yeah, there very rarely
Speaker 3: are any consequences for them, unfortunately.
Speaker 2: For sure. And I just want to highlight this before
Speaker 2: we move on Peter Strobe, unless y'all have anything else
Speaker 2: on Strobe. But he says he wrote ghost story. The
Speaker 2: reason I chose to write scary books was because at
Speaker 2: the time there were only three horror novels, and they'd
Speaker 2: been enormously successful with The Exorcist, Rosemary's Baby and the other.
Speaker 2: And I just like to remind everyone Rosemary's Baby was
Speaker 2: a process outfit with Roman Planski Cocaine Bob. He was
Speaker 2: on set every day despite being the head of Paramount
Speaker 2: and hiring Polansky to do that. And I like to
Speaker 2: put a note in there, penning Polansky there for a second,
Speaker 2: because he comes up later here in Tonight's tale. But
Speaker 2: is if you aren't having anything else on Peter Strub,
Speaker 2: we can continue. But by all means, this guy's an
Speaker 2: interesting character.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would. I wish I knew more about him personally,
Speaker 3: because it's it's just so obvious that he had a
Speaker 3: first hand source, you know. Yeah, but it's the kind
Speaker 3: of thing that he was never going to talk about openly.
Speaker 3: I mean, he he talks about certain influence, you know,
Speaker 3: literary influence and stuff on Ghost Story. He talks about
Speaker 3: you know, uh, Nathaniel Hawthorne and Henry James and all that.
Speaker 3: But but those are the obvious things. What's not so obvious? Hey?
Speaker 2: There you go. What do we don't know that we
Speaker 2: don't know that we do? They know that we don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I just I wish, I wish it was
Speaker 3: a wider discussion. I'd like to bring more people into it,
Speaker 3: you know, because somebody's going to know something about this somewhere.
Speaker 3: We just have to bring him into the circle and
Speaker 3: and get everybody to talk about it.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 4: To add on to your point really quick about this
Speaker 4: author and why I feel like it's significant is because
Speaker 4: someone that I comment on constantly that I actually have
Speaker 4: a poster right here, Stanley Kubrick. He put into his
Speaker 4: movies things that were not in the novels, right like
Speaker 4: the Shining clockwork Orange, Lolita, you know. And the guy
Speaker 4: who wrote a Clockwork Orange actually ripped off the idea
Speaker 4: from a conversation that Stanley Kubrick was having with someone
Speaker 4: and then he ended yes, yes. So Stanley Kubrick was
Speaker 4: at a party one night with a bunch of like
Speaker 4: weird German people like Warner von Braun and ship like that,
Speaker 4: and he was talking about the idea of a clockwork orange.
Speaker 4: The guy who wrote the book was there, wrote the
Speaker 4: book and then had Stanley direct the film. But the
Speaker 4: reason I bring all.
Speaker 2: This up, it's Anthony Burgess. Like you, He's also got
Speaker 2: a weird.
Speaker 4: Stories, right, Anthony Burgess. So why I bring that up
Speaker 4: is because Stanley Kubrick was supposed to direct The Exorcist,
Speaker 4: but he passed it up. He said he didn't want
Speaker 4: to do it, and so they got William Friedkin to
Speaker 4: do the Exorcist. But then because he passed up on
Speaker 4: the Exorcist, they asked him to do The Shining and
Speaker 4: he took it and flipped it and made it a
Speaker 4: cult and esoteric and it it is what we have today.
Speaker 4: But then look at the other book slash movie that's
Speaker 4: listed Rosemary's Baby, right, Polanski. So this guy is talking
Speaker 4: about I wanted to write horror because I know how
Speaker 4: esoteric it is. Basically, right, we got like The Exorcist,
Speaker 4: Rosemary's Baby, I mean, Stanley Kubrick was doing all this
Speaker 4: shit too, right books and making them you know what
Speaker 4: I mean. It's like they're all kind of connected. They
Speaker 4: all know that they can slip stuff in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I would argue it's them trying to
Speaker 2: basically a public initiation of some of the cold ideas. Because
Speaker 2: you mentioned freaking he ties into the gay club s
Speaker 2: and m scene with this tale relative to the Son
Speaker 2: of Sam story of the early eighties in New York City,
Speaker 2: that death mass story, the death mass story that John
Speaker 2: wrote about would be this environment here and cruising. In fact,
Speaker 2: freakin knew the guy that was doing these murders.
Speaker 4: But see how they slipped that shit in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Freaking's it's I'm just friends with this guy
Speaker 2: who's a gay, gay s and m club serial killer.
Speaker 2: Don't worry about it, folks, don't worry about it, and
Speaker 2: go the Cocaine Bible star his buddy Alvil stars the
Speaker 2: you know in the film about it, right, Because these
Speaker 2: idiots are just telling that they're bragging about their Speaking
Speaker 2: of the Braggs we talked about earlier, John, they're just
Speaker 2: bragging about their shit in my opinion. But yeah, well
Speaker 2: I'm just the garbage candidates. Who am I to say?
Speaker 3: Well, I tell you, and I hope this is not
Speaker 3: going to sound like bragging, because it really isn't. But
Speaker 3: it's just such an innoc capable connection I have to
Speaker 3: mention it. In reference to Cruising, the Los Angeles punk
Speaker 3: rock band The Germs. They did a couple of songs
Speaker 3: for the sound Actually they did about half an album's
Speaker 3: worth of stuff for the soundtrack of that film, but
Speaker 3: only one of the songs wound up being used. Uh,
Speaker 3: there is cult history there, Yeah, in in In Darby
Speaker 3: Crash's background.
Speaker 2: Though, came from that band. Yeah, no ship, Yeah.
Speaker 3: George Ruthenberg, Yeah, I don't. A good friend of mine
Speaker 3: knew Darby fairlywell. She was involved in that scene and
Speaker 3: in fact she was Nicholas Shrek's first wife.
Speaker 2: That's right, you told me about that.
Speaker 3: But we were good, good friends. And Uh, I learned
Speaker 3: a lot reading about Darby because he I believe he
Speaker 3: was almost certainly programmed. Uh, and that's probably a story
Speaker 3: for another time, but but.
Speaker 2: He was a story from our time because I just
Speaker 2: put a pen in that there that' stuff. This is
Speaker 2: all very interesting, Please continue.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually, there's a lot of strange history there. He
Speaker 3: very early on, when he was still in high school.
Speaker 3: He had people from scientology and est and all these
Speaker 3: organizations actively messing with the heads of the kids that
Speaker 3: attended that school. So yeah, that that's something we could
Speaker 3: talk about another for sure.
Speaker 2: Dude. That exercise into my speaking of weird McGowan's weird
Speaker 2: scenes inside the Canyon. I took the framework of his story,
Speaker 2: the salient characteristics and points that he identified theirs. That
Speaker 2: was the framework of that operation in Laurel Canyon. I
Speaker 2: applied that same framework to Seattle rungs counterculture and it's
Speaker 2: the exact same fucking thing. And Pat Smer is part
Speaker 2: of that counterculture. That's interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Nirvana you know, weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he came in there in love. Yeah, well yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's yeah, there's a lot of a lot of a
Speaker 2: lot of weird tana have been getting on with those topics.
Speaker 2: But back to the ghost story here. The tonight's topic
Speaker 2: you can hand which I do appreciate your folks time
Speaker 2: at the interwebs in of course John and Julia and
Speaker 2: your conversation. I'm learning a lot here, as I always
Speaker 2: do with both of you all in conversations and podcasts.
Speaker 2: So I do appreciate that. And I will only show
Speaker 2: this picture of Cocaine Bob six or seven more times,
Speaker 2: so I do want to get that out there. So
Speaker 2: ghost story, and I just want to add this, and
Speaker 2: I asked you all this question here too as well.
Speaker 2: If you were to pick a character from the film
Speaker 2: and sign them to one of these Muppet muppets, who
Speaker 2: which character would it be? In which muppet? Obviously we
Speaker 2: know that the female ones, that's the only one. I'm
Speaker 2: talking about, the the the creepy fellas.
Speaker 3: Right, I'll I'll do. I'll say that doctor Jeffrey is
Speaker 3: the disheveled, the guy in the chef's head Douglas character.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's my favorite one out of the bunch.
Speaker 2: He's my favorite one out of the bunch.
Speaker 4: Ricky is the teddy bear faced one. I think right now,
Speaker 4: maybe Ricky is the chef's hat guy.
Speaker 2: I think Freda Staire's Kerman. I could see him, you know,
Speaker 2: cutting a rug.
Speaker 4: What's the last one's name.
Speaker 2: Well, it started out as Gonzo. He went through a
Speaker 2: couple of morphs, you know what I mean, in the
Speaker 2: GCD Muppet Factory, so it didn't come out as Gonzo,
Speaker 2: but he started as Gonzo.
Speaker 4: No, but the guy, the last guy in the movie,
Speaker 4: the fat guy always sits in the chair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. So we got Fred Astaire, right,
Speaker 2: and start these four old muppets that you'll see there
Speaker 2: and depicted in the My My Muppets Take Take the
Speaker 2: Ghost Story Invasion. There we got the cast of Fred Astaire,
Speaker 2: Ricky Hawthorne, right, we got Melvin Douglass. Y'all just mentioned
Speaker 2: doctor John Jeffery. He's trying to out out JJ mee,
Speaker 2: that son of a bitch, Douglas Fairbanks Junior, Edward Charles Wanderley,
Speaker 2: and John Houseman Sears James Okay.
Speaker 4: John Houseman is the Teddy bear faced one?
Speaker 2: All right, fair enough?
Speaker 3: I think that's yeah.
Speaker 4: And then obviously Alice Kreig is Miss Piggy for sure.
Speaker 2: So when, uh, was there anything about the director or
Speaker 2: executive producer? I mean, it's all a little it about
Speaker 2: the executive producer, but the director, he didn't really do
Speaker 2: much of note or of colts or anything that's seemingly
Speaker 2: of significance, to be quite honest with you.
Speaker 3: Besides, yeah, I forget how he was assigned to this project.
Speaker 3: I though the screenwriter h Lawrence Cohen. He had done
Speaker 3: the screenplay for Carrie, the film version of Carrie. Yeah,
Speaker 3: really really great job with that. Yeah, And you can
Speaker 3: tell that he read Ghost Story because quotes from the
Speaker 3: book pop up here and there, you know, throughout the film.
Speaker 3: So it's the book is so long and involved and
Speaker 3: has so many different characters and situations that you can
Speaker 3: see why they had to kind of fold some of
Speaker 3: them into each other and abbreviate some things, sure for
Speaker 3: the movie.
Speaker 2: My only question with this guy, and you all may
Speaker 2: have the same kind of Julia maybe thinking the same
Speaker 2: thing as well there with your processed church understandings, what
Speaker 2: was this dude doing in London in nineteen sixty four,
Speaker 2: Because I'd be curious to them be saying out in
Speaker 2: the Mayfair district that would that the plot was thick
Speaker 2: And if he's if he's linked with the process in
Speaker 2: the Mayfair district in sixty four, that's all I'm saying,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Yeah, back of that India
Speaker 2: Indica Cafe along with the Beatles.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, well he's the right age range, so it could.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right, he'd been twenty four years old the time
Speaker 2: he'd been writing their Wheelhouse of Croup. I would imagine
Speaker 2: yeah now, and I just say that because like he's
Speaker 2: doing stuff for and and broadcasting film Ember in BBC.
Speaker 2: Looks like in that timeframe, right, see made for TV
Speaker 2: films over there and whatnot.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it says something about Christopher Walking in the eighties he.
Speaker 2: Made Yeah, so this was his first movie. Yeah, this
Speaker 2: was his first movie in America, and then Ghost Story
Speaker 2: was number two. But yeah, dogs of.
Speaker 4: JJ you cut out jj uh Oh he's froze. Are
Speaker 4: you there? Yeah, you're back, you back?
Speaker 2: Yeah. He also would do raw deal with that shitty
Speaker 2: the shitty Belushi in Schwarzenegger.
Speaker 3: I remember that one.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, Christopher Walking is a whole nother podcast topic,
Speaker 4: especially his weirdness with what's your Name? Natalie?
Speaker 3: Natalie would yeah, Natalie.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, for sure. This is this is a this
Speaker 2: is a weird movie. This is weird. I'm reading the synopsis.
Speaker 2: This is a fucking weird movie, dude.
Speaker 4: It looks like he has black Face on.
Speaker 3: Based on the Angola mercenary situation.
Speaker 2: Like, why are they making this movie in the first place,
Speaker 2: what's the And then they say that they based it
Speaker 2: off of a phrase from William Shakespeare. I just feel
Speaker 2: like there's a lot more to this film too, right.
Speaker 6: William Shakespeare looks like an interesting one, and I would
Speaker 6: wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that,
Speaker 6: you know, a lot of those mercenaries that wound up
Speaker 6: in Angola, they were trained at Jonestown, the same grounds there, right.
Speaker 2: You know exactly what I'm talking about, sir. This is
Speaker 2: the interesting details you're picking You're picking up what I'm
Speaker 2: what I'm talking about there, Johnny, You're a very smart man.
Speaker 2: You know exactly what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: I've just been that same note.
Speaker 2: On that same note that that creepy sigh op situation
Speaker 2: or whatever the hell it popped off in Minnesota over
Speaker 2: the weekend with those lawmakers up there getting marked in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night. That dude operates a security
Speaker 2: company out of the Congo. And that's the first thing
Speaker 2: I thought of when I read that detail, is what
Speaker 2: you just said there, john.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, things are still happening. We I think we
Speaker 3: live in much more interesting times than people might generally think.
Speaker 3: You know, all the crazy stuff that happened in the
Speaker 3: sixties and seventies, we still we get our own versions
Speaker 3: of that even today.
Speaker 2: Oh, I tell you, I don't think that. I didn't
Speaker 2: realize John Irvan did this film. I love this film.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I've seen this one.
Speaker 4: I have not seen this one.
Speaker 2: To give you an abridged version, US Army Airborne Ranger
Speaker 2: raised an apple aachi at Truman Gates migrates Chicago to
Speaker 2: become a police officer. That's Patrick Swayze. Oh, hal breaks
Speaker 2: Lucy starts battling with the mob, which is Ben Stiller
Speaker 2: was like the son of the mob, and in the
Speaker 2: the uh, I don't know whatever mob was in Chicago
Speaker 2: at the time. I think they were re taling about. Remember,
Speaker 2: but Liam Neeson comes in there and he gets murked
Speaker 2: spill alert, and that's his brother and then the whole
Speaker 2: Then everyone comes from Appalachia there in Kentucky to come
Speaker 2: Avenger's brother's murdered Chicago. They start murking folks in Chicago
Speaker 2: Appleacha style. I like that. I like that.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I love Bill Paxton, but I will
Speaker 4: just say a.
Speaker 2: Lot of ex a lot of excitement. Yeah, Bill Paxton,
Speaker 2: you got Baldwin.
Speaker 4: Which bald is that?
Speaker 2: That's not no, it's the non Baldwin Baldwin. He'll recognize
Speaker 2: his face as I go ahead.
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say if he was part of
Speaker 4: the Baldwins. I just learned something very interesting about them
Speaker 4: today that their bloodline includes all kinds of weird upper echelon,
Speaker 4: including like several presidents he'll Clinton and like some weird inbred.
Speaker 2: Like wait, wait, who was this? Who were we talking about.
Speaker 4: The Baldwin family.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not surprised by any of this. This makes
Speaker 2: sense to me.
Speaker 4: Right, But I mean they were talking about it openly
Speaker 4: on this podcast thing and oh shit, like bragging about it, like,
Speaker 4: oh yeah, we're related to you know, upper echelon and
Speaker 4: like these old in bread fox that used to have
Speaker 4: klutter palettes and stuff like that. And somebody wrote in
Speaker 4: the comment section Bill Paxton is dead. I know, And
Speaker 4: I'm really sad about that because I really loved Tim Well.
Speaker 2: Now that I'm now that we're considering John Urbans works
Speaker 2: and he's more of an esoteric understanding here, I also
Speaker 2: love Bill Paxton. By the way, he's a great actor.
Speaker 2: I see Joey Rosalini here is the name listed as
Speaker 2: this character that kills Liam Neest in that story. And
Speaker 2: that's interesting because you know, Johnny Roselli was the famous
Speaker 2: mobster out of Chicago associated with the JFK Biz and
Speaker 2: a lot of the other characters were discussing here within
Speaker 2: these this processing kind of element, right.
Speaker 4: Johnny Roselli was also tied up with Marilyn Monroe.
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I'm saying. His sidekick was Frank Sinatra,
Speaker 2: and Frank Sinatra and the entire rat pack. In my opinion,
Speaker 2: we're involved with the process, not just Mia Farrow's wife,
Speaker 2: not just Sammy Davis Junior, right, the stars of who
Speaker 2: starred in Bob Cocaine, Evans and Roman Planski's cinematic shit
Speaker 2: show to Satanism Rosemary's Baby. But there's more connections, and
Speaker 2: I actually have those connections on deck here. But before
Speaker 2: we go any further from John Irvin, do you all
Speaker 2: have any more comments on him?
Speaker 4: No, I don't have anything to add.
Speaker 2: How about the executive producer, Bert Weissberd.
Speaker 4: Is he an asshole or not? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Again, he didn't really like these guys didn't really seem
Speaker 2: to do a lot of significant stuff after this film.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just remember seeing his name in the credits
Speaker 3: of the movie, but I don't know anything about him.
Speaker 2: Uh, there's not much. Yeah, I couldn't find much about
Speaker 2: him either, to be quite honest with you.
Speaker 3: Looks like the film. There was Sam Sheppard, which is
Speaker 3: interesting because he was he had a thing with Patty
Speaker 3: Smith for a little while.
Speaker 2: So well as you say that he started and that's
Speaker 2: Sam Shepherd and he starts with with Sissy SpaceX. So
Speaker 2: what do you got on Sam Shepherd?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was just he he had a brief affair
Speaker 3: with with Patty Smith and they they wrote a play
Speaker 3: about it, Cowboy Mouth. But they're both actually performed in
Speaker 3: course that's named after Bob Dylan lyric. But yeah, mainly
Speaker 3: just his his association with Patti Smith.
Speaker 2: There, hear me if I'm wrong, One of these cult
Speaker 2: nicknames for Ronald Sisman was Sissy SpaceX.
Speaker 3: Right, that's right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: And Sissy Spacek was a Ford model, was she not?
Speaker 2: I believe she was. My guess, my my other quote,
Speaker 2: my let me let me rephrase that this would not
Speaker 2: be the only Ford model connected to the son of
Speaker 2: Sam's situation, right.
Speaker 3: Right right that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I believe that's where she starts off. Though
Speaker 2: I was working for the Ford Modeling Agency, and if
Speaker 2: I can unfuck my ability to click links here and
Speaker 2: move my dubie out of the way, I'll let us
Speaker 2: know that for certain. But I'm pretty there were some
Speaker 2: there were some wasn't Wasn't there a Ford Modeling Agency connection?
Speaker 2: What am I thinking of besides possibly her? What was
Speaker 2: going on there with that?
Speaker 1: There?
Speaker 3: I've heard something about that, but I'm I'm reaching back
Speaker 3: years to figure out what I heard about it, and
Speaker 3: I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was, there.
Speaker 2: Was Let's let's put a penn put it for a
Speaker 2: future one because well, future one is in two seconds
Speaker 2: from now after I read this. Because in nineteen sixty
Speaker 2: under the stage name Rainbow, she recorded a single John
Speaker 2: You Went Too Far This Time, the lyrics of which
Speaker 2: chida John Lennon and for his Yoko Owner his new
Speaker 2: album for two versions. So that's interesting. Basic worked as
Speaker 2: a photographic model represented by Ford Models.
Speaker 4: There you go, oh, there it is and is an.
Speaker 2: Extra Andy Warhol's right, So you have more connections with
Speaker 2: the Velvet Underground. Uh, allegedly linked to this through folks
Speaker 2: like Lou Reid. Right, Lou was Mabel Thorpe Smith, kind
Speaker 2: of that Velvet Underground Andy Warhol.
Speaker 3: Next, he knew Petty and he played with her on
Speaker 3: stage a couple of times. Uh. I'm not sure exactly
Speaker 3: how extensive Lou's involvement in this stuff was, but he
Speaker 3: must have known about it because all these people were
Speaker 3: doing this stuff at that point, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're they're, they're they practiced at the Andy Warhol
Speaker 2: studio that was there, much like the Birds did Polkas
Speaker 2: the studio, right, Julia the the the Velvet Underground did
Speaker 2: Andy Warhol studio. So we see the more comparisons.
Speaker 1: Did you.
Speaker 4: Watch Men in Black? The third Men in Black movie.
Speaker 2: With with Josh Brolin?
Speaker 4: With Josh Brolin, Yeah, do you remember how they said
Speaker 4: Andy Warhol was a CIA agent and all the models were, Yeah,
Speaker 4: they were extraterrestrials, which I know, but I do think
Speaker 4: they were making a reference to Andy Warholl being c
Speaker 4: I A for sure.
Speaker 2: I don't want to Yeah, I don't want to derail
Speaker 2: this too much because you just brought in a connection
Speaker 2: with his stepmother, back to all these these characters that
Speaker 2: brought Barbara streisand however, and that was with her with
Speaker 2: Warren Batty, the Young Turk. So there's a lot of
Speaker 2: these connections with these with these people. Right. So, well,
Speaker 2: we've I think we just put a pen at least
Speaker 2: in my brain hole for a future couple of conversations here.
Speaker 2: But if we go back to John Irvin and we
Speaker 2: were doing the the next tup, I guess we're we're
Speaker 2: not talking about the the cast. Yeah, let's go to
Speaker 2: the cast. We got obviously the most notable cast member,
Speaker 2: Fred Astare. But you know, I don't know, I'd like
Speaker 2: to hear what your old's thoughts are. I don't know
Speaker 2: that I've really I could never really, I've never heard
Speaker 2: a lot of creepy stories about us.
Speaker 3: There.
Speaker 2: I'm open to it. I couldn't really find anything too
Speaker 2: creepy about the guy, So I'm again, I'm open to it.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I've never heard of he's he's never heard
Speaker 3: any particularly bad stories about it. The interesting thing about
Speaker 3: him for the role is that in the novel, Peter
Speaker 3: Straub says he describes Ricky Hawthorne as looking like Freda Staire,
Speaker 3: so presumably that's that's why he and Peter Straub himself
Speaker 3: said that that was one of his favorite things about
Speaker 3: the movie was that Freda Staire played the role.
Speaker 4: Wow, Okay, you know the main star is of this
Speaker 4: whole story is actually really just the author, Like he
Speaker 4: made this what it is.
Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, I think it's the story could have
Speaker 3: been told by somebody else, but but being told by
Speaker 3: him made it special. I think it did. Yeah, because
Speaker 3: it's it's a really really great book and it's uh,
Speaker 3: I can't think of a single more brilliant author of
Speaker 3: popular fiction than Peter Stroud. But it just man to
Speaker 3: know that he was aware of a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 4: Is just uh well, yeah, came out for.
Speaker 3: A couple of years. Yeah, it was hard to to
Speaker 3: see it in a different life that way, but yeah, sure.
Speaker 2: Well I think one thing I thought was interesting with Hysteric,
Speaker 2: especially because I think it's good for all four of
Speaker 2: the main cast members. This is their last film, right.
Speaker 3: That's true. Well except for John Houseman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he did a couple more.
Speaker 3: Okay, he was the growth angry guy.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, and bring that up for you. I don't
Speaker 2: know why I don't what happened to him? Here hold
Speaker 2: on stand By Police. Yeah, he's he's a pretty notable
Speaker 2: voice and face right in Hollywood and Housman over the
Speaker 2: years he was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did a lot of commercials and he didn't
Speaker 3: act until later in life. He was an acting coach
Speaker 3: for a long time. He worked at UH I think
Speaker 3: at Paramount. He was a good friend of Raven Chandler.
Speaker 3: But he didn't act until fairly late in life.
Speaker 2: Well, that's interesting, Paramount. You say.
Speaker 4: He died on Halloween.
Speaker 3: That's yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 4: That's weird.
Speaker 2: Let's see how I don't know enough about him to
Speaker 2: tell you how that went down, so essentially, well, I mean, sorry,
Speaker 2: eventually we'll get down there.
Speaker 3: I think he looked pretty bad the last time I
Speaker 3: saw him. I can remember him.
Speaker 4: But yeah, oh yep, spinal cancer.
Speaker 2: See.
Speaker 3: I didn't know he was married to Zita Johan, but
Speaker 3: she was. She had a really odd mystical quality about her.
Speaker 3: She was in the Mummy with Boris Karloff. I had
Speaker 3: no idea that John Housman.
Speaker 2: Was married her, but she was interesting.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he appears with some scientologists as his last film
Speaker 2: looks like yeah, yeah, Priscilla Presley and Orenthal, James Simpson scientologists.
Speaker 3: God, he was the driver's ed instructor in that. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well me and JJ just did an episode.
Speaker 2: On O j Oh. Folks were loving that. Julia Again,
Speaker 2: I have to thank you again for even suggesting that,
Speaker 2: because the folks have been enjoying that one. For sure.
Speaker 4: That was a real born I enjoyed myself. Actually, that
Speaker 4: was a really fun episode. I was gonna say, you know,
Speaker 4: just I don't know if it's the right time to
Speaker 4: bring it up or not, but you know what I thought,
Speaker 4: So maybe you guys. Obviously John's gonna disagree because he
Speaker 4: read the book and he already knew what was going
Speaker 4: to happen. But JJ, didn't you think that they were
Speaker 4: all going to take turns rape in her and then
Speaker 4: like accidentally kill her or like knock her out and
Speaker 4: then or like hold a pillow over her face or
Speaker 4: something like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is the eighties. It seemed like
Speaker 2: the rapier era of films. So I agree with you, But.
Speaker 4: Like you know what I'm saying, there's another I mean,
Speaker 4: like you could.
Speaker 2: Make Porky's in this day and age, right, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? It was very rapey right, right.
Speaker 4: Well, it just it looked like all of them had
Speaker 4: a crush on the main character, right, and they all
Speaker 4: wanted her, but she was only interested in one of them.
Speaker 4: So that scene at the end where they're all trying
Speaker 4: to take turns dancing with her, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 4: I know what's gonna happen. They're gonna take turns rape
Speaker 4: in her. They're going to accidentally kill her, and that's
Speaker 4: gonna be why she her ghost is coming back to
Speaker 4: get revenges because they raped her and killed her. Sure
Speaker 4: she didn't go as sinister as what I thought it would.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know though, if I made just interject
Speaker 2: when they were dancing with her, I took that as
Speaker 2: them having sex with her. So you saw three of
Speaker 2: the four have sex with her, in my opinion, because
Speaker 2: three of the four danced with her, right, But.
Speaker 4: It didn't show them having sex with her, right.
Speaker 2: But I'm saying it was a metaphorical I think that
Speaker 2: to me, that was the metaphor that they were all
Speaker 2: hooking up with homegirl and they're passing around because they
Speaker 2: were all you know, it's like the song from the
Speaker 2: eighties with the Billy idol dancing with myself. It's about masturbation,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, but there is another horror movie. That's why
Speaker 4: I say, I feel like this book that got turned
Speaker 4: into a movie obviously was the predecessor for the idea
Speaker 4: of several several several future horror films. One of them
Speaker 4: is called Stir of Echoes. It actually has Kevin Bacon.
Speaker 4: It's one of my favorite horror movies.
Speaker 2: Kevin Bacon, ma'am the Kevin Yeah.
Speaker 4: The Kevin Bacon. And it's basically, this girl gets raped
Speaker 4: by a bunch of dudes and they accidentally kill her,
Speaker 4: and they hide her body somewhere and she comes back
Speaker 4: as a ghost and haunts them all and is trying
Speaker 4: to kill her.
Speaker 3: That sounds very very ghost story. In a novel, she's
Speaker 3: she's much more predatory. She gets drunk and she insists
Speaker 3: that they all drink and dance with and they're like
Speaker 3: starting to recoil from her, but she's being really vicious
Speaker 3: and awful, and she grabs jaffery and says, kiss me
Speaker 3: a little toad and all that stuff that she says
Speaker 3: in the movie, and then one of them pushes her away,
Speaker 3: just like you know, because they're all awkward and young,
Speaker 3: you know. And yeah, they start to be repulsed by her,
Speaker 3: and one of them pushes her away, not meaning to her,
Speaker 3: but that's when she hits her head.
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, there in lies there curse of this lady,
Speaker 2: not the curse of of Robert the dollmind you, which
Speaker 2: I you know, like a curse. Nonetheless, And and before
Speaker 2: if I may have, before we go deep dive into
Speaker 2: the full storyline there and how these things unfold, if
Speaker 2: we could just finish off going over these four actors
Speaker 2: that comprise these roles here, if we mentioned Melvin Douglas,
Speaker 2: he's one of the he's the next guy. He's the doctor, right,
Speaker 2: he's the jaffery guy. Yeah, what are your thoughts on
Speaker 2: why this guy was cast? Was there any specific reasons
Speaker 2: or anything else? He did that the Caltural's eyes.
Speaker 3: Uh, I'm guessing he was. He had been in The Changeling,
Speaker 3: another horror film, Yeah, a year earlier, and that's they
Speaker 3: were probably thinking about the casting for that film. That's
Speaker 3: a really good one.
Speaker 4: Is the Is that the same Changeling that would that
Speaker 4: would later get remade with uh Angelina Jolie.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: Oh that I don't know same name.
Speaker 4: Though, right, yeah, it's the same name. I'm just curious
Speaker 4: as to if it this was the original and the
Speaker 4: one that Angeline and Joelie did was a remake because
Speaker 4: the one that she's in was about child trafficking and
Speaker 4: program serial killers.
Speaker 2: That's this one, right, Yeah, it's a different spot line.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like a straight haunted house movie. But it was
Speaker 3: written well.
Speaker 2: So Melvioln dovelason that that'll be an interesting one to
Speaker 2: check out. And then was was there anything else that
Speaker 2: jump at you? With the with old mill here?
Speaker 4: He's like a classically handsome guy for the era.
Speaker 2: Do you mean handsome.
Speaker 4: Handsome?
Speaker 2: No, you know what I mean, like Rock Hudson, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. He famously joined Scientology of the
Speaker 2: same kind of era of acting, and you know, hide
Speaker 2: his homosexual activities, right, you know.
Speaker 4: That there's definitely some There's always going to be some
Speaker 4: of that.
Speaker 2: Right right. He just kind of he struck me as
Speaker 2: a very rock huts and type of character, is what
Speaker 2: I'm saying.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: So the one thing I found most interesting about this
Speaker 2: guy is he did a film called Be There, Be
Speaker 2: There with Peter Sellers, famously of the Ciela Drive. Manson
Speaker 2: Tate Plansky processed church situation out there in Siella Drive
Speaker 2: that culminated in the Manson Family murders. Peter Sellers was
Speaker 2: the regular and so was the director of this film.
Speaker 2: That was Ruman Plansky's best friend Jerry cool Zenski.
Speaker 4: So he's besties with all those fucks.
Speaker 2: Huh, Jerry Kazinsky right here, you know this was this
Speaker 2: was the best friend born and Paul and this is
Speaker 2: best friends of old Rum and Polanski. You know, Rouman
Speaker 2: Plansky friends with old Cocaine Bob Roman Plansk.
Speaker 4: Oh, here we go.
Speaker 3: I saw being there, but it was years and I
Speaker 3: would have been a little kid when I saw it,
Speaker 3: So I don't remember much about it, but I do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know much about either. I mean, it
Speaker 2: says it's a satirical comedy drama, which is an odd
Speaker 2: phrasing of a genre of words in my opinion. So
Speaker 2: Peter Sellers, y'all know about him relative to the Manson
Speaker 2: situation and the process seeing out there and La in
Speaker 2: sixty nine sixties.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've read about it in Dave Mcowan's work.
Speaker 2: Well, there you go. What do you recall from that?
Speaker 2: Because he was very tight right with this is? This
Speaker 2: is Peter Sellers with Sharon Tate and Christmas is sixty eight.
Speaker 4: I somehow, maybe I'm fucking this up, But wasn't he
Speaker 4: also somehow friends with the Wonderland Avenue people too?
Speaker 2: Oh? That that would be interesting. I'm not sure that
Speaker 2: would be interesting though.
Speaker 4: Maybe I'm remembering wrong. Maybe I'm remembering the whole scene.
Speaker 2: That's the whole scene now, I mean, that's those people
Speaker 2: were integrating the whole scene come the seventies, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like he bought drugs from them or something.
Speaker 2: I don't know that wouldn't I wouldn't be surprised, would Yeah,
Speaker 2: I would say most people, now go ahead.
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say. Somebody put in the comments. Yeah,
Speaker 4: Peter Sellers was a cruel psychopath behind closed doors, much
Speaker 4: like how they describe Frank Zappa among.
Speaker 2: Other same scene though, right these guys, right, I mean sailors,
Speaker 2: I mean Sellers. So amongst these, uh, the various videos
Speaker 2: and pornographies, et cetera that we're allegedly filmed at Cielo Drive,
Speaker 2: Sellers was deep in that mix, apparently, along with folks
Speaker 2: like I mentioned before, Josh Brown, stepmother's old boyfriend, Warren Batty.
Speaker 4: Oh, Warren Baty, don't get me started on him.
Speaker 2: Best Buds Kissinger and Cocaine Bob National Security never looks
Speaker 2: so sleazy. I like that. I like that phrasing. Todd
Speaker 2: Miller appreciate that. So, yeah, I think it's odd. You
Speaker 2: see this deep connection with all these kind of even
Speaker 2: within this film, right, you got these people that you know,
Speaker 2: you got Jerry Kazinski in the orbit, you got Peter
Speaker 2: Sellers in the orbit of of uh what's his name? Uh,
Speaker 2: Melvin Douglas.
Speaker 4: Well, it's kind of like guilt by association, right, your
Speaker 4: friends circle is got it's.
Speaker 3: Weird, you know, the Beatles and Stones and Keith Richards
Speaker 3: living next to h John Phillips and yeah yeah, m
Speaker 3: m hmm.
Speaker 2: So the next the last guy we got here is
Speaker 2: the main the main four old dudes is Douglas Fairbanks Junior.
Speaker 3: Yeah, ned the mayor.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I got something interesting please. It says his first
Speaker 4: marriage was to actress Joan Crawford. Isn't she the one
Speaker 4: that beat her kids up and locked him in rooms
Speaker 4: and beat them with hangers and ship ship? Okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: you've never seen mommy dearest JJ. Well you're fucking up,
Speaker 4: because that is an amazing movie and there's a lot
Speaker 4: of quotable lines from that movie. But yeah, she adopted
Speaker 4: two kids in and then just beat the shit out
Speaker 4: of them their entire life, just beat the shit and
Speaker 4: she would handcuff them to the bed at night, all
Speaker 4: kinds of stuff, psycho.
Speaker 3: And I always thought she was one of the people
Speaker 3: that you could tell just looking at her that something
Speaker 3: was a little off, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, JJ, you need to watch that because
Speaker 4: I even put I even took something from this movie
Speaker 4: and I put it into my intro for my podcast
Speaker 4: because it's just so iconic. But anyways, yeah, she was
Speaker 4: horrible to her children who she adopted, and she was
Speaker 4: in the Have you ever seen a weird horror movie
Speaker 4: from back then called Baby Jane?
Speaker 2: I've actually heard of that. Yeah, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 3: Happened to Baby Jane?
Speaker 4: Whatever happened to Baby Jane?
Speaker 2: One of my fav you're talking about.
Speaker 4: She's in it. And the first time I watched it,
Speaker 4: my mom was like, oh, do you know the true
Speaker 4: story about what she did to her care kids? And
Speaker 4: then we hadmidarist after that. But yeah, Jill Crawford real
Speaker 4: fucked up.
Speaker 2: I'm definitely gonna be watching that. I appreciate that, thank you.
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2: So what else did her? So what these weren't that
Speaker 2: This wasn't the dad of that, right? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Uh no, No, you talked about her kids?
Speaker 2: Yeah, her kids? Yeah, okay, oh that's right, you just
Speaker 2: said that. You just said that.
Speaker 4: Well, that's what makes it worse is because like she
Speaker 4: hated kids, So why the fuck would you go and
Speaker 4: adopt two kids?
Speaker 3: I think public image because she was seen as kind
Speaker 3: of a brittle, unpleasant sort of person, and they told her,
Speaker 3: you know, if you had some kids, it would improve
Speaker 3: your public.
Speaker 4: Image, right, And so she basically JJ she would like
Speaker 4: John Banam and like dress them up in Christmas outfits
Speaker 4: and stuff and like parade them around like they were
Speaker 4: so happy, and you know, and the kids were just
Speaker 4: getting tied up at night and beat with hangars and
Speaker 4: all kinds of stuff. It's it's crazy. It's crazy.
Speaker 2: Word out huh yeah, mmm, worn outer kids. So this
Speaker 2: is what I found interesting about Fairbanks. During World War Two,
Speaker 2: he served as a commissioned officer in the US Navy
Speaker 2: and enter World War Two and assigned a Lord Mountbatten's
Speaker 2: commando staff in the United Kingdom.
Speaker 4: And he married a psychopath that beats her kids.
Speaker 2: Right, Oh, you'll like this one. Also, he was he
Speaker 2: was later implicated in the Profumo scandal.
Speaker 3: That's yeah, yeah, that's pretty much a direct connection to
Speaker 3: the process. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's long been suspected that Marianda Grimston
Speaker 2: was one of the prostitutes in that scandal, but it's
Speaker 2: not been confirmed, but there is to heavy suspicions of such.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 4: So he's the most interesting actor thus.
Speaker 2: Far, between him and Douglas my opinion, you know those two.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: So we get back into the plotline of the film.
Speaker 2: As we've said, these four old men, sensibly at least
Speaker 2: metaphorically speaking of the film, seemed to have raped this
Speaker 2: young woman and she John, as you mentioned, she falls
Speaker 2: down and and they think she's dead because she gets
Speaker 2: her head right, that's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is.
Speaker 2: The witchy woman that looks like Suzanne Conway right, Alma.
Speaker 3: Right, right, or or Eva her name is at that time, right,
Speaker 3: And it's I hate to keep bringing this up, but
Speaker 3: it's just so there are so many points that there
Speaker 3: was a real Eva and the character who appears later
Speaker 3: in the Who the chatter society consults to see if
Speaker 3: he can solve their problems. Is done well. There were
Speaker 3: a real Don and Eva in the book. They're called
Speaker 3: Don Wanderley and Eva Galley. Yeah. The real Don was
Speaker 3: Don Warner, the guy who directed the play that Suzanne
Speaker 3: Conway was in, and he had a wife named Eva.
Speaker 3: That's how specific Straub's references were.
Speaker 2: You ain't you can, dude. That's that's like on the money,
Speaker 2: on the money, it really is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and that's right, Marie. It was yeah, yeah, yeah, dude.
Speaker 2: I mean at some point, like what, at what point
Speaker 2: in time did you consider like that Strawba obviously knew
Speaker 2: a lot about this, like how many details of these
Speaker 2: before you're like, wait a second, this is something's going
Speaker 2: on here.
Speaker 3: You know. It was maybe late twenty twenty. I was
Speaker 3: rereading it for Halloween, like I do every year most years,
Speaker 3: and it was I was sitting in my chair one
Speaker 3: night and he was talking about neighborhoods in different places
Speaker 3: in this fictional city of Melbourne, and because I had
Speaker 3: been doing research, I just realized that every place he's
Speaker 3: talking about is just a Yonker's reference, Like all the
Speaker 3: street names. There's a minor character in the book named Venudi.
Speaker 3: He's the pharmacist. It's a reference to Jove Nudi, who
Speaker 3: is a political figure in Westchester in the forties and fifties.
Speaker 3: It's just just one reference after another. But it's the
Speaker 3: kind of thing that people aren't going to realize until
Speaker 3: they're doing, you know, extensive newspaper research like often tedious,
Speaker 3: but that's how I go across all those names.
Speaker 2: Well, relative to that Wanderley guy you were just talking
Speaker 2: about there, it says you're in your blog post. In
Speaker 2: the book's prologue, a man named Don Wanderley has kidnapped
Speaker 2: a young orphan girl from a park in Melbourne. It's
Speaker 2: down in New York State. He drives her to Panama City,
Speaker 2: which is the location of where John car was station.
Speaker 3: It says, that's right, that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I just wanted to say this comment you got posted,
Speaker 4: Todd said, I learned everything about the Dutro scandal from
Speaker 4: Julia's show. Great work, Julia. Just want to say that
Speaker 4: comment means the world to me because I worked tirelessly
Speaker 4: on that presentation for Program to Kill. I spent months
Speaker 4: putting that presentation together. So thank you Todd and this
Speaker 4: stuff we're talking about today is no different. I mean,
Speaker 4: all of this this stuff, this the references he's making
Speaker 4: in this book, referencing real life stuff. They loved. It's
Speaker 4: like a sick joke to these people.
Speaker 3: They think that it really is. Yeah, they think it's funny.
Speaker 2: You'll laugh about it, right, Yeah, they think covered I
Speaker 2: covered all this in Dragnet. I didn't know. I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: go ahead, Julia.
Speaker 4: No, I was just gonna say. They think it's absolutely
Speaker 4: hysterical that we just watch movies and read books and
Speaker 4: you know, it's right in front of our face and
Speaker 4: we'll just never know, especially what John was talking about
Speaker 4: earlier with that guy's last name, Like, who else is
Speaker 4: going to put that together?
Speaker 2: Yes, Pacaula. Yeah, so I totally agree with you. I
Speaker 2: totally agree with you. So the I did a Nicolet
Speaker 2: esoteric review a number of weeks back on Dragnet. So
Speaker 2: folks to the interwebs or John or jolly of you
Speaker 2: folks want to check it out.
Speaker 4: Uh oh, j Keith Frousin, Yeah, he'll probably be back
Speaker 4: in a second.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: In my back, my back, my back, Yeah, you're back.
Speaker 2: It's a nineteen eighty seven cinematic masterpiece Dragnet a cult
Speaker 2: and esoteric review where we go over the elements of
Speaker 2: the process being told there, and I'll just use to
Speaker 2: emphasize my point, I'll bring up one one character from
Speaker 2: the film and show you the murder of Roy Raidin. Right,
Speaker 2: So back to back to my favorite character here at
Speaker 2: Operation GCD Cocaine, Bob Boy. He was the unindicted co
Speaker 2: conspirator in the murder of Roy Raiden, so the one
Speaker 2: of the coat the convicted murders. And that the hitman
Speaker 2: that that he allegedly hired was a fellow by named
Speaker 2: William Menzer, the guy that as John will tell you what,
Speaker 2: Who's William Menser? John? He got me out with that.
Speaker 3: He had a long he had on a cult background.
Speaker 3: He apparently was pretty serious about his occultism.
Speaker 6: He was.
Speaker 3: He's been alleged to have been involved with Son of Sam,
Speaker 3: particularly the Christine Freud murder. He was supposed to have
Speaker 3: been on the scene there, if not the actual shooter.
Speaker 3: And he's well, he has a he's another one of
Speaker 3: these people. He's a movie into himself.
Speaker 2: That you ain't kidding.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was mentioned in Program to
Speaker 4: Kill as being like they linked him somehow to being
Speaker 4: an offshoot of like after the Manson family murders went down,
Speaker 4: there was the Common Club, Yeah, and then this guy yeah,
Speaker 4: uh huh, all process offshoot kind of weirdos.
Speaker 2: So one of the other things he was notorious for
Speaker 2: was being the security guard and chauffeur of Larry Flant.
Speaker 2: And in the nineteen eighty seven cinematic Masterpiece were introduced
Speaker 2: to Jacko Hallahan's character Ian ol muzz He is the
Speaker 2: security guard and driver of the pornographer in the film,
Speaker 2: which is in part a machination of what I would
Speaker 2: argue is Larry Flint and and uh Hugh Hefner. But
Speaker 2: he he's also a major figure in the cult that
Speaker 2: is siege that has taken a siege of Los Angeles
Speaker 2: and co opted politicians, attorneys, police, police folks, including the commissioner, right,
Speaker 2: and it's all run by a guy who's doing this.
Speaker 2: He's the head of the Christian organization in town fighting
Speaker 2: all this. He's the head of the Satanist organization, the
Speaker 2: pagan cult that has sieged it. And he's part of
Speaker 2: that cult. And Bill Mentzer just happened to be the
Speaker 2: driver and chauffeur of Larry Flint and Bill Metzer just
Speaker 2: happens to look identical to Emmaus. So you you tell
Speaker 2: me if they're if they're telling us a tale that one,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Like somebody who wrote the stuff knew exactly what was happening,
Speaker 3: and they knew who the players were.
Speaker 2: Defin to speak. You see what I'm saying, how much
Speaker 2: you no, I agree to but you see how much
Speaker 2: these dudes look. I mean, they played the same role, right.
Speaker 4: I'm on, and they're playing like the same he's playing
Speaker 4: the real guy, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: And oh, haller hand don't look anything like like they had.
Speaker 2: This is all made up with the hair and the
Speaker 2: mustache they gave to him there. So and it's interesting
Speaker 2: because this is what I like the joke when you
Speaker 2: this is what reminded me of this. You all were
Speaker 2: talking about the bragging. So Bob Cocaine Evans went and
Speaker 2: saw the film Wag the Dog right with Dustin Hoffman.
Speaker 2: And when he this is nineteen ninety seven, he walks
Speaker 2: out of the film and the uh, he's asked by
Speaker 2: you know, the premiere He's asked by the paparazzi, you know,
Speaker 2: what do you think of the film, and in Old Cocaine,
Speaker 2: Bob Fantoausy replies, I thought I looked great on the
Speaker 2: big screen because Dustin Hoffman is playing a Hollywood producer
Speaker 2: who's doing a Bob Cocaine Evans character, right, yeah, and
Speaker 2: they're all every yeah, everything, And I would I would
Speaker 2: argue that they're that whole film is a satirical take
Speaker 2: of them bragging and laughing on these fella's relationship because
Speaker 2: d Niro. D Niro was a man who Evans made
Speaker 2: his career, he made Hoffman's career, and and Danira plays
Speaker 2: a you know, not necessarily a national security council.
Speaker 4: In my froze my back, my back, So I didn't
Speaker 4: know if it was me or you. Yeah, you're you're back.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Evans makes both de Niro in Hoffman's careers.
Speaker 2: Hoffmann's playing a saturial take on I just think that
Speaker 2: de Niro is doing the kind of a cterial take
Speaker 2: on Henry Kissinger there. But nonetheless he walks out of
Speaker 2: the theater and says, I thought it looked great. So
Speaker 2: when this film came out in nineteen eighty seven, I
Speaker 2: often wonder if this fellow, who was not arrested until
Speaker 2: August of eighty eight, walked out of that same film
Speaker 2: and said, I thought I looked great on the big screen.
Speaker 3: I bet he did, you know, because they said too
Speaker 3: when he was when he was arrested, they found a
Speaker 3: copy of Maury's book and it had his parts underlining
Speaker 3: the book. And he told somebody that they in this
Speaker 3: book they described what I did as a perfect crime,
Speaker 3: which wasn't actually true. But he he had that conscious
Speaker 3: vanity about himself that when he knew he was being
Speaker 3: written about or depicted in the movie, he was. He
Speaker 3: knew about it, you know, he was. He was happy
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 4: Somebody had seen something in the commons here, Hang on, is.
Speaker 2: It Kane b He was friends with the box.
Speaker 4: Fast Eddy the one before that. He's somebody's talking about
Speaker 4: a movie that rolls of Dan Aykroyd.
Speaker 2: But fast Eddie was the mina somma bitch I've ever
Speaker 2: met in my life. I think Kane's actually telling you
Speaker 2: now an actual story here. He used to work for
Speaker 2: a tourist trap restaurant in the eighties. Oh so, because
Speaker 2: Kane used to live in San Diego in the eighties.
Speaker 2: That's interesting, Kane. So he was friends with Bill, your
Speaker 2: old boss was friends with Bill Metzer. Huh, that's we
Speaker 2: got to talk about that for a fellow like I
Speaker 2: would like to hear some more of those tales that's
Speaker 2: gonna be, you know, I'd like just you know that
Speaker 2: whole era. I feel like San Diego is whatever, Los Angeles,
Speaker 2: whatever Cole takesot he was popping off in Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: It sounds like Kane had been seeing some of that
Speaker 2: ship in San Diego at the same time. Am I
Speaker 2: back my back?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're good, You're good. I was just reading the
Speaker 4: comments over here.
Speaker 2: It looks like I don't know. Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, look like headless is in
Speaker 4: the comments. People are on fire tonight. We got all
Speaker 4: kinds of stuff coming through. This is awesome.
Speaker 2: It's good stuff. I appreciate the folks with your webs
Speaker 2: and joined the show and commenting here on the on
Speaker 2: the chat, so where did we leave off before I
Speaker 2: went on a cocaine bob excursion.
Speaker 4: We were talking about how she basically they kill her. No,
Speaker 4: was that what we were talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were saying how it was similar. They were
Speaker 2: bragging about these stories, right, But no, they killed the
Speaker 2: woman on accident. And then the next thing we see, right,
Speaker 2: is one of the character's sons falling out of a building,
Speaker 2: showing us as dick.
Speaker 3: And you don't realize at first that she's get you.
Speaker 3: The woman he's with is is the one that the
Speaker 3: central figure.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: That's a good point too. I thought you meant you
Speaker 2: don't realize at first they're going to show you his
Speaker 2: dick because I didn't realize that.
Speaker 4: They show you plenty of of tit action too. And
Speaker 4: but from this ship, I had.
Speaker 2: No idea Dan Ackroyd bought Mama Cass's house, Get the
Speaker 2: fuck out of here. That's awesome stuff. Come on, because
Speaker 2: he already he's already he's already questionable enough starring opposite
Speaker 2: Tuesday Well, the nineteen ninety five film starring Keanu Reeves
Speaker 2: and Courtney Love Feeling Minnesota.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that Dan he has a serious interest, like
Speaker 3: in ghosts and UFOs and just the paranormal.
Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, John, and I cover that. You'll you'll enjoy
Speaker 2: this comparison. I cover that in that Dragonet film that
Speaker 2: he you know, went into some of the Ghostbusters activities.
Speaker 2: I think he has raised a cult bookstore was based
Speaker 2: upon the Magical Child.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't doubt it. I wouldn't doubt it.
Speaker 4: And Mama Cass's house makes sense to me.
Speaker 2: Hey, look, if you start opposite, they will makes sense
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 4: That's like Jared leto buy and lookout Mountain Laboratory. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and he's doing some kind of cult activity.
Speaker 2: That was originally Natalie Woods house. Holy Masicious, that's some
Speaker 2: great stuff you got that. I didn't know that either,
Speaker 2: Holy Ship. Who is this? It's Masicious. That's not Ship,
Speaker 2: it's only Masicious.
Speaker 3: She has a lot of good information. I know her.
Speaker 3: She's research.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you man. That's a that's some awesome stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, some awesome stuff.
Speaker 2: I don't know. Nicholas Roorck, who's that?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: The Russian painter? Who's that sort of mystical?
Speaker 4: Is it a weirdo child diddler cannibals.
Speaker 3: Just sort of known as a painter of like mystical
Speaker 3: and occult subjects. Thank you made glad you're listening tonight.
Speaker 4: May I need to get you on my show? What
Speaker 4: the fuck? Geez? People in the comments are going John,
Speaker 4: you brought the best audience tonight. Holy crap.
Speaker 2: That's not that is that is that May? May May
Speaker 2: Zech Do I know this Maze? Is this one of
Speaker 2: your followers?
Speaker 3: Well, we're just fellow researchers.
Speaker 2: And nice because it sounds like I need to I
Speaker 2: need to know this person.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's both interested in the same kinds of things.
Speaker 3: And I'm so glad.
Speaker 2: I didn't know dan Aykroyd bout that fucking house. That's
Speaker 2: I mean, I look a lot of these details.
Speaker 3: I didn't either. But it's so great that people are
Speaker 3: talking about this stuff because it really is. It's not.
Speaker 3: This aspect of it has not discussed a whole lot,
Speaker 3: I don't think, or maybe it is privately, but I've
Speaker 3: just never been able to engage a whole lot of
Speaker 3: people in the Son of Sam community in this hype.
Speaker 2: To see the interest John, I'll hope to see the interests.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna have to put my email and if you could,
Speaker 4: I email JJ at the end of the show so
Speaker 4: people can reach send me an email, reach out and
Speaker 4: I want to get May on my show only trade
Speaker 4: throwing out some crazy info like that. I need to
Speaker 4: know more.
Speaker 2: It's a real barn burner here, Julie. It's a real barn.
Speaker 4: Burner burning down the barn. Holy shit.
Speaker 2: So after we see the unsolicited dick pic of one
Speaker 2: of the main characters sons that jumps out of the
Speaker 2: building because he sees the ghost, right, the ghost comes
Speaker 2: on him. What's that about? Why is the ghost hunting
Speaker 2: the man's son.
Speaker 3: Well, he's one of the two sons of Ned, the
Speaker 3: mayor and the the guy that Eve I actually liked
Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty nine or whatever it was. He's one
Speaker 3: of the two sons.
Speaker 4: He's Do you take it as being liked and Ricky?
Speaker 2: Right? Ned and Ricky right? Because the next thing we
Speaker 2: see is the father chasing after Ricky. He goes to
Speaker 2: see his dad for the funeral of his brother and
Speaker 2: tells his dad, Hey, I was sleeping with that lady too, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: he tells his dad.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but do you take that out right lamb kind
Speaker 4: of thing? Like the firstborn son, like, I'll get you
Speaker 4: and your firstborn son kind of thing.
Speaker 2: That's what I was thinking, kind of right, a little curse. Yeah,
Speaker 2: well curse.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure how they actually were thinking about it
Speaker 3: in in the film and in the book, Alma Till's
Speaker 3: done really specifically that you know, when we get married.
Speaker 3: I want to go back and get married in the
Speaker 3: town where you grew up. And I want all your
Speaker 3: father and all of his friends and everybody in the
Speaker 3: town to be there, and I want them to see me.
Speaker 2: And then the next phrase she says is the phrase
Speaker 2: she repeats at the end, right, that she's gonna make
Speaker 2: them all kind of like she's gonna make them all pay,
Speaker 2: They're all gonna feel or something like that.
Speaker 3: That's exactly it. Yeah, it's revenge for what they did
Speaker 3: to her, albeit accidentally. Now it's funny because in the
Speaker 3: movie they it sort of inadvertently, I think turns the
Speaker 3: men and the chatter society into the villains because they
Speaker 3: just kill this woman who has no she's just a
Speaker 3: normal human being. You know. In the book, there's already
Speaker 3: something wrong with Eva, and she already is this sort
Speaker 3: of inhuman other worldly figures, so that they they think
Speaker 3: that they have killed a human woman, but what they
Speaker 3: have actually done is just anger, a an other worldly
Speaker 3: sort of spirit being that that just keeps coming back
Speaker 3: at them over and over at various points throughout their history.
Speaker 3: But she's even at the point where they kill her.
Speaker 3: In the novel, the first time as Eva, she already
Speaker 3: is not a human. She's something else just occupying a
Speaker 3: human body, possessed. She's a manitude. She's an Indian spirit,
Speaker 3: one of these shape shifting changeling things. Yeah, becomes people
Speaker 3: or animals or whatever, but it's always in the disguise
Speaker 3: of a physical creature. But it's not. It's not actually
Speaker 3: a physical person or an animal at all.
Speaker 4: Right, She's like a siren.
Speaker 2: She's like a yeah, a figure, yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and can lure you in with like her good
Speaker 4: looks and stuff. But then she turns running right, Yeah,
Speaker 4: but think of it like JJ like in The Shining,
Speaker 4: you know, when it's like a beautiful woman in the
Speaker 4: bathtub and then he goes to kiss her and she
Speaker 4: turns into like some weird hag which thing that's like
Speaker 4: laughing and cackling, Like that's Eva, Like she's like some
Speaker 4: kind of weird siren.
Speaker 2: Which we see that a lot. Though that same sequence
Speaker 2: you just describe from The Shining, we see that same
Speaker 2: sequence play over here in this film as well, with
Speaker 2: this this witchy character, right, this this Eva Alma character.
Speaker 2: But it is it's that's the call of the siren,
Speaker 2: is what she's doing when I think when she says,
Speaker 2: I will take you places you've never been, I will
Speaker 2: show you things that you've never seen, and I will
Speaker 2: see the life run out of you. He repeats that
Speaker 2: numerous times in the film.
Speaker 4: It's like a chance. It's like the priestess thing, you know,
Speaker 4: it's like a spell.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but she's learning these men in with, especially Ricky.
Speaker 2: She lowers Ricky in with that statement, right, m.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. And the our real life priestess, that
Speaker 3: is the the image she consciously affected. She she was
Speaker 3: like that so Conway, right, Yeah, that was very much
Speaker 3: her her persona.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, that's I mean, you bring up some
Speaker 2: good points there. So then we see we see Ricky
Speaker 2: and is it Ricky Senior? Right, he falls off the bridge.
Speaker 2: They're chasing Ricky Jr.
Speaker 3: Right, Well yeah, but but yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, off
Speaker 3: the bridge and he sees uh Almah's or Eva's figure.
Speaker 3: They're approaching him just as he's about to jump off. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then and then and after that is when
Speaker 2: we start getting into the bending of reality, right, because
Speaker 2: when they go when fred Astaire goes to the house, right, well,
Speaker 2: that's is that the next scene, right, is that the
Speaker 2: next part.
Speaker 3: It's it's somewhere early in there. I forget exactly when
Speaker 3: he goes to it. Uh. Now incredibly too that that
Speaker 3: whole house is a matte painting. It's not even a
Speaker 3: real hat. That's it's an amazing painting there. But that's Uh.
Speaker 3: I wish I could remember the name of the guy
Speaker 3: that did those paintings for the for the fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll look that up here in a second. So
Speaker 2: we are just looking at the Oh, that's right, so
Speaker 2: downing his father committed suicide. Don then the remaining three
Speaker 2: friends and tells them a ghost story, right, approaches the
Speaker 2: remaining three friends. So then that's when the son is
Speaker 2: trying to get into the club, right.
Speaker 3: Right right, and he uh. They talk to each other
Speaker 3: because he's a horror author, and I think Riky or
Speaker 3: somebody suggests or not it's not Ricky, Maybe it's Sears
Speaker 3: who suggests. Well, Edward's son knows about all this weird stuff,
Speaker 3: so maybe he could tell us something to sort of
Speaker 3: calm down a little bit and and keep our imaginations
Speaker 3: from running away with us. So they asked him to
Speaker 3: come to town, and he uh, he attends one of
Speaker 3: their meetings and Uh. Yes, Sears is really grouchy and
Speaker 3: offers him a Cuban cigar. But then Don says something like, well,
Speaker 3: let me tell you a story and maybe that'll be
Speaker 3: the price of my admission into the chatter society, which
Speaker 3: Sears really doesn't like for some reason. And he he
Speaker 3: blows up at him over that comment. But Sears is
Speaker 3: just kind of a cantanker's character like that in the
Speaker 3: book and in film too.
Speaker 2: Now you're that's spot on, that's what. And the next
Speaker 2: thing we see is them and he's recounting this story, right,
Speaker 2: But that's when we meet Alma, right, So that's when
Speaker 2: it started blurring the boring the reality situation.
Speaker 3: Right right before Alma knew his brother who dies at
Speaker 3: the beginning of the movie, she knew Don, and uh,
Speaker 3: she approaches him when he's teaching at some university in
Speaker 3: Florida somewhere, and.
Speaker 2: Let me put a in that statement because I got
Speaker 2: an interesting, little weird thing that I saw on that
Speaker 2: whole Florida thing. I'll bring us at the end, but
Speaker 2: please continue.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, he he falls for her, and initially they're
Speaker 3: planning to get married, but she just gets weirder and weirder,
Speaker 3: and he has more of these strange experiences where her
Speaker 3: he he's it becomes impossible for him to ignore that
Speaker 3: something's wrong with her, and eventually one day he tells
Speaker 3: her that he's breaking it off, you know, and so.
Speaker 2: She and this is all going on in the past.
Speaker 2: He's now retelling in the present based upon his brother
Speaker 2: already hooking up with this girl. Right, So it kind
Speaker 2: of it's suddenly the whole. When I was watching, I
Speaker 2: was like, holy shit, did this stuff this all collapsed
Speaker 2: on me at once? Dude, I didn't see it coming.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's one of those things that's very much
Speaker 3: like the book is it's different narratives woven into each other,
Speaker 3: different time periods, and yeah, it starts to get pretty
Speaker 3: complex at that point.
Speaker 2: Come it comes at you real fast, because then he
Speaker 2: realized the opening sequence when he saw his brother falling
Speaker 2: out the building and the dick pic the lady that
Speaker 2: he's he saw was this Alma ghost. Yeah, I'm sorry's
Speaker 2: sleeping with Alma, but he sees the ghost of Eva
Speaker 2: in her and then falls out the window. And then
Speaker 2: you find out his father is doing the same. And
Speaker 2: then his brother's like, wait a second, I've been banging
Speaker 2: this broad for a while. Guys.
Speaker 3: So he talks to his brother, he's in a bar
Speaker 3: and he says, David, don't don't marry her, something's wrong
Speaker 3: with her, and yeah yeah thereafter yeah.
Speaker 2: Wild ship man, wild Ship. Yeah, what was your taking
Speaker 2: all that, Julia?
Speaker 4: Well, I just wanted to note two things I thought
Speaker 4: were cool from this part of the movie. The fact
Speaker 4: that he knows Don knows that he has to quote
Speaker 4: unquote like blood his way into the cult. Right, He's
Speaker 4: gotta pay his dues, He's gotta tell this story to
Speaker 4: get into the secret society.
Speaker 2: Right when he says the series, he's like John how
Speaker 2: He's like, hey, I want to get in, and there's
Speaker 2: John States kind offended, and then he offers up his
Speaker 2: blood sacrifice, right.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, So I felt like that was symbolic. And
Speaker 4: then when it shows him at the university talking to
Speaker 4: his class full of students, the only thing he's really
Speaker 4: talking about is being seduced and someone seducing or him
Speaker 4: seducing someone else, or he's talking about like a short story,
Speaker 4: but it's all about seduction, and like the weird siren thing,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so.
Speaker 2: It's it's weird, weird tiren things are I'm spinning because
Speaker 2: I was You're making a great point, I want to comment,
Speaker 2: and I was also trying to actually it thumbs up
Speaker 2: and talk at the same time. Apparently I can't do
Speaker 2: all at once without spinning on myself. So that's a
Speaker 2: great point you.
Speaker 4: But yeah, no, those were two things that I took
Speaker 4: out of it. Also just a funny part from the
Speaker 4: beginning of the movie when the dad goes to pick
Speaker 4: up the sun from the train station. He's like, look
Speaker 4: at you. You looked horrible. And he's wearing like a
Speaker 4: sweater vest in like a button Like if you saw
Speaker 4: somebody wearing that outfit, you'd be like, oh, he looks nice.
Speaker 4: Where's he going? And the Dad's like, you look like shit.
Speaker 2: He wasn't dressed right. He was dressing you know, really,
Speaker 2: you know, put together as far as style and whatnot goes.
Speaker 2: You wasn't doing flannel and headbands what I'm saying, you know.
Speaker 2: And again it kind of that was an interesting scene
Speaker 2: to me because it's like he didn't want to the
Speaker 2: son didn't want to go back there. He already knew that,
Speaker 2: he already knew the dynamic that they didn't know that
Speaker 2: he was banging his lady already. He didn't want to
Speaker 2: do that. His brother dies, there was a lot going
Speaker 2: on there, and then he gets there, his father's giving
Speaker 2: him heat, you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: So well I did that. It was another testament as
Speaker 4: to the elitism of the family, because.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying, Like he's getting heat from his
Speaker 2: dad no matter what he does.
Speaker 4: Sweater vest looks like ship to the dad, Like what's
Speaker 4: the dad on? You know? So it's like another testament
Speaker 4: as to these high elite Secret Society members and their kids, right,
Speaker 4: dying mysteriously accidentally killing people in their past and covering
Speaker 4: it up.
Speaker 2: Like total accident. Yeah, while we're on the topic, and
Speaker 2: you bring us some great points. While we're on the topic,
Speaker 2: was there anything important about the scenes that we see
Speaker 2: that are the actual scenes?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 2: And like not the obviously you've made all those correlations
Speaker 2: between Yonkers and the fictional town of Melbourne with the
Speaker 2: namesakes of roads and whatnot and people's But we see
Speaker 2: a couple interesting places like Saratoga Springs is one of
Speaker 2: the filming locations, right, What's doctor Mont's another one. I
Speaker 2: believe this was the down I believe this is the
Speaker 2: downtown setting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe that's right. Yeah, I'm not sure if
Speaker 3: there was any particular reason that they chose those locations.
Speaker 3: But for the town square, it it looks and sounds
Speaker 3: a lot like the wheat Row of the book, the
Speaker 3: town Square of Melbourne in the novel. So that's uh,
Speaker 3: that's it's very close and tone what what Straw described
Speaker 3: in the novel.
Speaker 2: How about during the Son of sam Era, was there
Speaker 2: any connections to the Kipps Bay area of Manhattan, Not to.
Speaker 3: My knowledge, although a lot of those members did sometimes
Speaker 3: go to hang out in the city, so it's possible
Speaker 3: that that there's some that one of them had a
Speaker 3: connection to to Kipps Bay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't as much I know about New York
Speaker 2: City when I used to hang out there all the time,
Speaker 2: I never I don't know anything about that region of Manhattan.
Speaker 2: I was, you know, I was normally found in mcsorley's,
Speaker 2: the oldest bar in Manhattan. Mcsorley's Old Ale House, a
Speaker 2: bunch of old, surly Irish dudes. I highly recommend the place,
Speaker 2: great spot, but I don't know much about that region. However,
Speaker 2: mcsorley's is down there in that kind of Sun of
Speaker 2: Sam East Village, not far from some of that East
Speaker 2: Village stuff, you know what I mean, And that was
Speaker 2: on the Sun of Sam.
Speaker 3: That definitely was was an area that I think everybody
Speaker 3: when you go there, you have at least one sort
Speaker 3: of Stree experience. You walk past some place and you
Speaker 3: realize that it's a place that you've read about. You
Speaker 3: weren't consciously seeking it out, but there it is, and
Speaker 3: you realize you're standing next to it, and it just
Speaker 3: you know, because there's so many places like that in
Speaker 3: New York, but mine was the place where William Burrows
Speaker 3: used to live. I knew it was down there. That
Speaker 3: wasn't really what I was going to see, but all
Speaker 3: of a sudden, it's just right there, and you recognize
Speaker 3: the gate and the number over the door and everything,
Speaker 3: and of course Burrows, that's that's a whole other connection
Speaker 3: to this stuff, you know, into the Magical Child and
Speaker 3: and all of that scene.
Speaker 2: Well, well, John Sara, you just signed yourself up for
Speaker 2: another show here in Operation GCD. Because it is William
Speaker 2: Burrows who institutes the smiley face as a chaos symbol
Speaker 2: into the neo process. Movement.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Burrows was, he was, he was something else.
Speaker 2: I as always absolute your efforts and all these things,
Speaker 2: I learned something new. I did not know these these
Speaker 2: these Boroughs connections. I do need to learn more Burroughs stuff.
Speaker 3: Clearly, it's spooky. He was involved in and he admitted,
Speaker 3: you know, he said I had CIA acquaintances, which I
Speaker 3: think you underplaying it a little bit. But at the
Speaker 3: very least.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he he a scientologist, John and a scientologists that's right.
Speaker 3: That's right, very dedicated scientologist. And one we sure, and
Speaker 3: that's right DeLand, Florida. And you know, may another thing
Speaker 3: about DeLand is I believe that's where Burrow's son of
Speaker 3: Billy Jr. He died in DeLand or somewhere just outside
Speaker 3: of DeLand, strangely enough, just as we're we're talking about Burrows. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: but Billy or Willie Junior.
Speaker 2: Yeah, guy die his number three, William number three dies
Speaker 2: March third, nineteen eighty one. Survey says DeLand, Florida.
Speaker 3: Yeah. He was a very good writer in his own right,
Speaker 3: and I to his credit, ultimately, I believe although it
Speaker 3: caused him a lot of pain in his life, he
Speaker 3: was not a part of his father's circle. He was
Speaker 3: very much outside that and was was frustrated and didn't
Speaker 3: understand all the the weird you know that that weird
Speaker 3: group of friends, and you know that his father had
Speaker 3: all the strange stuff that he was involved with. He
Speaker 3: I think a lot of that was was a mystery
Speaker 3: to Billy. He's one of the fuorite riders. I have
Speaker 3: a real soft spot for Billy because he had a
Speaker 3: rough life.
Speaker 4: He did diet thirty three.
Speaker 2: Though, I'm not gonna y'all rather blow my brain all here,
Speaker 2: and I don't want to. I don't want to. You're,
Speaker 2: you know, make some great points and I don't want
Speaker 2: to direct you from them. But yeah, I do have
Speaker 2: to get us back on track here with the chapter Society.
Speaker 3: Yeah well we'll yeah, well, we'll go ahead and ups
Speaker 3: as the rest of the oh.
Speaker 2: I assure you have both of you receiving emails from
Speaker 2: me tonight with these various notes of things that come
Speaker 2: back in the future of an invite. So I do
Speaker 2: appreciate your time and for blowing my brain. Though, I
Speaker 2: just like to try to keep this narrative going because
Speaker 2: I you all just made so many comments that I
Speaker 2: bit my tongue on. We'll just well, we'll stay we'll
Speaker 2: stay the path here. We'll definitely be doing these in
Speaker 2: the future though, these other things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2: So the next thing we see is Don there getting
Speaker 2: engaged at Alma.
Speaker 3: Huh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, That's probably my favorite part
Speaker 3: of the movie is when he starts to realize that
Speaker 3: something's wrong with her. It's it's really creepy. You know,
Speaker 3: there's very little dialogue, but she's acting so weird, and
Speaker 3: they keep flashing back to the looks on his face
Speaker 3: and he's just it's that. I really like that part.
Speaker 2: I meant David so Don to learn that he was
Speaker 2: horrid to become engaged at Alma. So Don then shows
Speaker 2: the three elders.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, he he shows them a photo and they say,
Speaker 3: oh my god, that's that's Eva. We remember Eva.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so we have three we have three old
Speaker 2: muppets at this point, right, because Don's dad's dead.
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right, he's the one that jumped off
Speaker 3: the bridge.
Speaker 2: Don's brother's dead because he was banging Alma. Right, we
Speaker 2: saw his dick at the beginning of the film. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: good point. I'm just reiterating that's the folks. You go
Speaker 2: watch this film, can expect the they want to watch it,
Speaker 2: that's up to them.
Speaker 4: At least scariest part of the.
Speaker 2: Movie, Dude, I only jumped at one part, and there
Speaker 2: was that part like there was another jump. Scary.
Speaker 3: It's an unflattering shot for any actor.
Speaker 2: I think inappropriate.
Speaker 4: They didn't even like slap it around and get it
Speaker 4: kind of half chubb or something like. No, it was
Speaker 4: full on, baby dick.
Speaker 3: It looks very awkward. Yeah, it must have been an
Speaker 3: awkward day on set.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, when there's a lot of
Speaker 2: awkward days and a lot of sets, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 4: His burden is bush on the first.
Speaker 3: The U.
Speaker 2: So the next day we lose the second, and we
Speaker 2: lose our next muppet.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that's doctor Jeffery.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Art Attack huh yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So then and then after that, then the other the
Speaker 2: two remaining muppets, fred Astaire and the other guy that
Speaker 2: Ricky and sears right houseman and Freda's Staire right yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: They tell they kind of bring Ricky in on the
Speaker 2: scene or I'm sorry, don in on the scene at
Speaker 2: that point, right. Yeah.
Speaker 3: They explained to him, just just like in the book,
Speaker 3: to everything that happened. They in the book, when it's
Speaker 3: just the two of them left, they're sitting in Edward's house, uh,
Speaker 3: and they're they're saying, you know, we're we're gonna explain
Speaker 3: to you what happened and what the history of this is,
Speaker 3: and we're not proud of it, but we killed this
Speaker 3: woman and we didn't mean to.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 3: Uh So, yeah.
Speaker 2: And that's when we see the scene then that they
Speaker 2: flashes back to when they were dancing. Right, that's right,
Speaker 2: that's right. It says after the four were uhh, that's
Speaker 2: not it. After the four win Hammond became drunk. They
Speaker 2: returned to the houses, the dilapidated house that we see
Speaker 2: in the future. Actually we skipped over that part and
Speaker 2: I apologize. So, yeah, it's town fred Istaire, mister Ricky there, right,
Speaker 2: he goes over to that old mercy and right, what
Speaker 2: happens there in the old scene. So I think that's
Speaker 2: a very interesting dynamic that obviously plays a very important
Speaker 2: role later in the film, but is interesting in this
Speaker 2: kind of esoteric understanding as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, he sees Gregory and Finny their roles in
Speaker 3: the film were a little murky. There's not any real
Speaker 3: reason for them to be in the film other than
Speaker 3: to just add another horrific layer to the story. But
Speaker 3: they're major characters via flashback in the novel. But yeah,
Speaker 3: Gregory Bait whose character name is is from Gregory Bates
Speaker 3: and the influenced Aready laying Yeah, and Finny is his
Speaker 3: is uh, developmentally disabled brother of the little boy. And
Speaker 3: you see them here and there throughout the film whenever
Speaker 3: something had happens. But their roles in the film are
Speaker 3: are much diminished compared to what they do in the book.
Speaker 2: But oh yeah, yeah, Well, the one thing I did
Speaker 2: pick up on there was, especially after Fredis Stare gets
Speaker 2: chased out of there by them, you hear Alma's voice
Speaker 2: and them going to room, like she's got some sort
Speaker 2: of mind control spell on them.
Speaker 3: That's right, She lasts, and she says, I've got something
Speaker 3: for you to do, or something to that effect. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And the the police dispatch the guy on the dispatch
Speaker 3: phone says tells the sheriff, well, we've got this weird
Speaker 3: guy in town, Gregory Bate. He was involved in some
Speaker 3: cult or something back on the West coast, and he's
Speaker 3: he left, he got out of an asylum or something,
Speaker 3: and he's, uh, he's here in Milbourn now, and uh,
Speaker 3: there is that verbal tie to all the cult stuff
Speaker 3: in the movie.
Speaker 2: So two questions. One I just forgot while I was
Speaker 2: asking you that, and uh, secondly I forgot the second one.
Speaker 2: So I will get back to you points about bateson
Speaker 2: and they were both relative debates and whatever it was.
Speaker 2: It'll circle back here in a second.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, because Bates is an interesting character right within
Speaker 2: within this kind of he didn't mean he's not he
Speaker 2: didn't work for the Tabstad, but within this kind of
Speaker 2: mind controlled Tavistock, and you know, he was very going
Speaker 2: to do this to society, right like he's entered on
Speaker 2: that process.
Speaker 3: He had some odd concepts and he was a huge
Speaker 3: influence on already Lane.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, not the comedian, No, the oh so did
Speaker 2: the millroom mill Burne? Was that any not to mil Grum?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not sure that's a good question.
Speaker 2: It may have been, you know, the milgrim experiment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and that that's that's a good point. It
Speaker 3: may have been that, uh, Julius that I would have
Speaker 3: asked Peter Strout if I could have asked him, you know,
Speaker 3: and sat down with him and said like, sure, wow, man,
Speaker 3: you really packed the references into this one book.
Speaker 2: It's just it's incredible hardcore.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this may have been his opus. I don't know
Speaker 4: about I'm not a hundred on that JJ.
Speaker 2: When they were convincing folks to shock, they thought they
Speaker 2: were getting you know, deadly levels of shock therapy, but
Speaker 2: really they were just an actor holding the things like
Speaker 2: they were getting shocked and the person didn't know. The
Speaker 2: whole thing was an experiment. But they realized that they
Speaker 2: could get other people to kill people because they were
Speaker 2: being told to do so.
Speaker 4: Oh shit.
Speaker 2: Granted on paper, at least allegedly, they weren't really killing folks.
Speaker 2: There was no actual electric shock being applied. The person
Speaker 2: who was applying electric shock was the subject of the
Speaker 2: test to see how much they could get them to
Speaker 2: do by just telling them to do more, you know everything,
Speaker 2: even though everything said that person was going to die,
Speaker 2: and they would remind the person's gonna die, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna do it anyway, because there was a
Speaker 2: bifurcation of liability, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, it's
Speaker 2: really easy to get people to tell people to die
Speaker 2: and kill people apparently.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, this is a psychological operation.
Speaker 2: That's what I mean. So this guy, That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: So if we're doing baits and stuff, right, why would
Speaker 2: Milburn not be a nod to mil Groom? Right?
Speaker 4: Ah, for sure?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, those were the thoughts of the circle back
Speaker 2: in my brain hole there. That was. I appreciate y'all
Speaker 2: stand by for that one. But yeah, So the next
Speaker 2: thing we see after we see the four, the three
Speaker 2: out of the four dance with the Eva. She hits
Speaker 2: her head. They put her in the car, they sent
Speaker 2: her in the pond, but she's alive when she goes
Speaker 2: in that pond. So that's a very to me, that's
Speaker 2: very indigicative, a ritual human sacrificing water.
Speaker 4: Same and the fact that she's a siren.
Speaker 2: There you go again with the sirens. I wasn't even
Speaker 2: considering that the first time I saw it. With the
Speaker 2: siren stuff, that's even Yeah, brings it all right into
Speaker 2: the same same conversation.
Speaker 4: And it's like she draws her power from the water
Speaker 4: because water is a condo for Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So they call him Gregory bait, which yeah,
Speaker 2: I was like, wait a second, that's a little too
Speaker 2: on the nose, Gregory Bates and yeah, yeah, so then
Speaker 2: we go back to present day, right, and then that's
Speaker 2: when these fellows start, you know, after they flashed back
Speaker 2: to yesterdayear remember the time they killed that lady and
Speaker 2: they're like, wait a second, and that lady is the
Speaker 2: new lady? What's going on here?
Speaker 3: Right? Right? And then you have a long flashback scene
Speaker 3: with the with the young versions of all the members
Speaker 3: of the Chatter Society, and we see how they meet
Speaker 3: Eva like a summertime, some sort of social gathering, and
Speaker 3: then they she's had a tea or a dance or something,
Speaker 3: and they all become fascinated with her. But it's it's Ned,
Speaker 3: who's the best looking of the bunch, and it's Ned
Speaker 3: that he and Eva are attracted each other. And so
Speaker 3: they're all out doing this almost kind of like surreal,
Speaker 3: like they're running through in order trued. And then they're
Speaker 3: on a canoe.
Speaker 2: And yeah, you know, nineteen twenties escape, like right.
Speaker 3: Everybody's wearing those boater hats and but yeah, that's an
Speaker 3: interesting series of scenes too. But yeah, they they wind
Speaker 3: up killing Eva accidentally or they think they've killed her
Speaker 3: as we described, but then they see as they're pushing
Speaker 3: the car into the pond that that she's still a
Speaker 3: lot of the back window and is banging on the
Speaker 3: window and screen.
Speaker 4: They put in zero efforts and watching.
Speaker 9: Like, oh wait, she's alive, you know, ling and looked
Speaker 9: at each other and they were like, wow, fuck, I
Speaker 9: guess she's dead, right.
Speaker 3: And that's that's that's supposed to be, Like, look at
Speaker 3: these horrible, spoiled rich kids. Look at what they did.
Speaker 3: They had a chance to save somebody's life, and they,
Speaker 3: which is in the book is is the way they
Speaker 3: think of themselves all throughout their lives. They think, God,
Speaker 3: we just killed somebody. We murdered a woman. And then
Speaker 3: Don tells Sears and Ricky in the book, you know
Speaker 3: she never was a woman. There was always something wrong
Speaker 3: with her. What you did was you just inadvertently caught
Speaker 3: her off guard. She was already going to kill you,
Speaker 3: but you just made her angrier than ever. And that's
Speaker 3: why she's been coming back over and over throughout your
Speaker 3: lives and families.
Speaker 4: And killing their sons and.
Speaker 2: The audience to see their sons dick because they're falling
Speaker 2: out of building. Yeah, so that I'm obviously upset about
Speaker 2: that or anything.
Speaker 4: We flashed back to present time. He flapped he what
Speaker 4: I said?
Speaker 2: That guy flashed something all right in that in that
Speaker 2: scene falling out of the building.
Speaker 4: Yeah, his baby asparagus?
Speaker 2: What were you saying? The flashback to the present when
Speaker 2: we see them concluding that Eva and Alma are the
Speaker 2: same person, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4: And then they're like, all right, what are we gonna do?
Speaker 4: And they decide to drive back to Eva's old boarded up,
Speaker 4: old scary house.
Speaker 2: Yeah, where fred Istaire got Ricky got chased out by
Speaker 2: the goons, the goons squad, yep.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And in the meantime, here Sears. He has left
Speaker 3: Ricky's house alone to sort of divert attention because he
Speaker 3: thinks if he can draw the bad guys away from
Speaker 3: Ricky and Don that he'll sacrifice himself to do this.
Speaker 3: So he does. Sears dies when Gregory and Finny magically
Speaker 3: appear in his car. So they kill Sears in his
Speaker 3: car out in the snow, and then there's just Ricky
Speaker 3: and Don left and they go to Eva's house and yeah,
Speaker 3: Don hurts his leg and uh.
Speaker 2: Stairs in the old lap and instructure. Huh right, right,
Speaker 2: and then we see them going, uh, he suddenly has
Speaker 2: a go ahead, go ahead, Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Was just yeah the interior. That is really nice that
Speaker 3: they convincingly recreate a broken down house from that period.
Speaker 3: It's that's really nice, and.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's where the main thing. Yeah, yeah, we see
Speaker 2: we suddenly see, after watching all his friends die, that
Speaker 2: he's something that old Ricky here suddenly gets a conscience
Speaker 2: about himself.
Speaker 3: Huh he does. Yeah, And while he's going to get
Speaker 3: help for Don, who can't move because of his injured leg,
Speaker 3: he gets the idea that, well, maybe if we pull
Speaker 3: the old car up from the pond. And it's not
Speaker 3: real clear how he thinks this is going to solve everything,
Speaker 3: but he wants to make it the nineteen twenty nine incident, right,
Speaker 3: So he tells the sheriff what he and his friends
Speaker 3: did to the woman back then and that they pushed
Speaker 3: the car into the pond. So they go and they
Speaker 3: get the.
Speaker 2: Car on the pond routine, and he thinks that the
Speaker 2: woman is that he thinks the woman is is in
Speaker 2: the car or not in the car.
Speaker 3: He thinks somehow if he can dredge up the body
Speaker 3: and expose the body that the ghost will leave Don alone.
Speaker 3: And it's never really clear how that works, but he
Speaker 3: gets a tow truck and a crane and a wench
Speaker 3: and everything, and they they dredge the pond and then.
Speaker 2: The old pond, the car of the pond magic trick with.
Speaker 3: The right Yeah, yeah, it's it is kind of an
Speaker 3: unexpected that, like, that's not where you expect the plot
Speaker 3: to go, you know. But Done is waiting in the
Speaker 3: house and Eva's ghost is right there and she's reaching
Speaker 3: out for him, and she's like a skeleton hand touching
Speaker 3: his throat and he's screaming and and so. But just
Speaker 3: at that moment they dredge the car up from the pond,
Speaker 3: Ricky or somebody opens the door and then out comes
Speaker 3: Eva's corpse straight at him, and Ricky is going like,
Speaker 3: you know, like you're afraid that's going to kill him
Speaker 3: since all his other friends are already dead. But the
Speaker 3: body of Eva collapses right there on the ground. And
Speaker 3: then suddenly, back at Eva's house, her ghost or the
Speaker 3: ghost of all whatever she is, is gone, and Done
Speaker 3: is safe too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it.
Speaker 4: Was like every she needed everybody to know what happened
Speaker 4: to you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and just by their dredging up the car
Speaker 3: and exposing the body somehow or other her her visits, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that put you.
Speaker 2: Which you know, to a certain extent, I feel like
Speaker 2: that's kind of these tropes and that that that you know,
Speaker 2: there's some sort of you know, something attracting keeping these
Speaker 2: uh these you know, this isn't the first time we've
Speaker 2: seen some sort of a priestess of a witchcraft type
Speaker 2: of deal sorcery kind of being that's haunting folks until
Speaker 2: they can get something back from the person, a heart
Speaker 2: or a long maybe I'm maybe kidney. I'm not sure
Speaker 2: they're on an organ donor list in the spirit world
Speaker 2: or what. But they're always after something, right.
Speaker 3: Right, like a pound of flesh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I'm trying to remember why I saved this from
Speaker 2: the film, and I just got distracted because, uh was
Speaker 2: that it We're I'll give you all some closing statements,
Speaker 2: but that was I thought that was a great recap
Speaker 2: of events. But I had saved two notes from earlier
Speaker 2: I said that were really weird and creepy synchronistic events
Speaker 2: for me. When I was watching this film and reading
Speaker 2: about stuff. Yeah, and I don't remember why I saved
Speaker 2: this lady to it to give me a second, but
Speaker 2: she I just got distracted because she was married to
Speaker 2: Roll Doll speaking of Deadler.
Speaker 3: Oh Patrician Neil. Yeah, I almost forget. Yeah, she was
Speaker 3: Ricky's wife.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, she was Ricky's wife, Thank you, sir.
Speaker 2: I knew there was some reason why I saved this.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And why can't I think of her name Stella? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she was married to the old diddler Roll
Speaker 2: Doll because them Snosberry's from Willi Wanka turned out to
Speaker 2: be dicks and not candy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she was. At one point she was Dashal Hammett's
Speaker 3: girlfriend too.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Yeah, when Roll Doll was telling folks that
Speaker 2: the Snosberry's tastes like Snosberry's according to them kids. He
Speaker 2: would later describe the Snosberry's the later book as dix
Speaker 2: a over here.
Speaker 3: In fact, according to one of Nashal Hammett's daughters, Hammett
Speaker 3: warned her, uh, don't get married to him. He's not
Speaker 3: a good person, or something to that effect. So that
Speaker 3: that's interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is interesting. Well, can't be the purge there.
Speaker 2: It's my Abin Costello Cohort and I have four conversations
Speaker 2: we do over there on his show, and he's gonna
Speaker 2: love this one. So as you can see her. Patricia
Speaker 2: O'Neil was a member of Phi Beta Pi, the sorority
Speaker 2: girls up and around that Idaho for murder. We're all
Speaker 2: Phi Beta Pie. Interesting. Interesting, and the man, the male,
Speaker 2: the male victim was Sigma Chai. And in the film
Speaker 2: we hear them singing this song, Sweetheart of Sigma Chai.
Speaker 3: Excellent. Yes, that's what we're singing it down down below
Speaker 3: eas window. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The Snisberry like Snilesberry's.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: According to these guys and even bunch of Dix, if
Speaker 2: you asked me to believe this is somehow just weird circumstances.
Speaker 3: I would not put that pass for roll Doll at all.
Speaker 3: He was a very peculiar person.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, like, it's just weird. It just weird
Speaker 2: to me that in the future past all of these things. Again,
Speaker 2: I don't want to get into comments of questions of
Speaker 2: time and concept of time, but it is weird to
Speaker 2: me how some of these things work, that like you
Speaker 2: can have such you know, elements where an actress as
Speaker 2: a member of the same sorority as these victims, and
Speaker 2: they're singing a song about the other victim and the
Speaker 2: fraternity he's from. It's just a weird concept of the
Speaker 2: movie for me to watch, and I was like, what
Speaker 2: the fuck's going on right now?
Speaker 3: Man?
Speaker 2: Gil Bill Sarns went off in my brain hole, is
Speaker 2: what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: I think all of this stuff is absolutely conscious. I
Speaker 3: mean it just doesn't you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I'm what I'm saying about time and magic.
Speaker 2: It's like and again, I want to this is a
Speaker 2: conversation for a different day. But I think part of
Speaker 2: this and Peter Lavenda, the OTO member, brings us up
Speaker 2: in his book relative to some of the son the
Speaker 2: same matters, right, talking about time and centers for forces
Speaker 2: and whatnot, and how you can how these magicians impact
Speaker 2: time and a non linear fashion. And again it's a
Speaker 2: it's a lot of stuff to get into right now,
Speaker 2: but these are concepts similar to a relative to the subject.
Speaker 2: Folks like the OTO member, Peter Lavenda, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And these people they do, they're very serious
Speaker 3: about what they do. A lot of them, well, this
Speaker 3: this stuff is silly that they're into, but it's but
Speaker 3: they take it very very seriously.
Speaker 4: Right, I say that all the time. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when when, for examplehen people try to try suggest
Speaker 2: to me that the Church of Satan and Antonavay was
Speaker 2: just a carnival barker and it was all a bit.
Speaker 2: It is all a gambit, and I'm like, all right, dude,
Speaker 2: well that's hilarious, but I don't buy it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's exactly what they want people to think.
Speaker 3: It's all just a joke.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, we're we're just we're just dignostic.
Speaker 2: We just like the Lares Devils and weird Ship.
Speaker 4: The Larvest Devils. You know what it is to This
Speaker 4: is something that I always bring up when I cover
Speaker 4: these type of topics, is if they weren't seeing results,
Speaker 4: why would they keep doing it. They've been doing it
Speaker 4: and obviously they're getting some kind of results, so you
Speaker 4: don't have to believe in it, but they do. And
Speaker 4: obviously it's working for them, or they wouldn't do the
Speaker 4: shit that they're doing.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. And when I say this nonlinear aspect of
Speaker 2: time where ideas come from, especially for writers, and again
Speaker 2: suggested by Peter Leavenda, where I even came up but
Speaker 2: started going on this path. Not just his ideas, but
Speaker 2: he's the one who sent me on this path. I
Speaker 2: believe he mentions it in Sinister Forces. There was a
Speaker 2: book written, I believe in eighteen eighty seven called The
Speaker 2: titan which was about an indestructible cruise linership that went
Speaker 2: between Europe and America and suddenly hit an iceberg and sank.
Speaker 2: Well that just so happened to occur again later in
Speaker 2: the future. Real world time is the Titanic. So that's
Speaker 2: all I'm saying here with these circumstances.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely, oh yeah, you.
Speaker 2: Get in, Julie, get something I was just for, at
Speaker 2: least for the advocation of the folks of the interwebs
Speaker 2: who have missed my you know, routine and you know,
Speaker 2: unsolicited tirades on time. Then you know there's part of
Speaker 2: it right there. I appreciate both your else on the
Speaker 2: night speaking of time, Julia and John both, and for
Speaker 2: blowing up my brain whole a number of times, which
Speaker 2: thanks I just got. I just started getting in that
Speaker 2: cycle for a moment. There are things you suggested to me.
Speaker 2: No I didn't know. I'm like, wait a second, I
Speaker 2: got to close the show out first before I start
Speaker 2: doing that, so I appreciate both of your all time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, yes, great to meet you, John, I always love.
Speaker 2: Go ahead, thank you.
Speaker 4: No, that's all I had JJ.
Speaker 2: Go ahead. I'll make sure I connect y'all with the emails,
Speaker 2: and I'll put your email Julia in the show notes
Speaker 2: for folks to reach out to you, especially maze Iss,
Speaker 2: who I again love to hear more thoughts there, ma'am.
Speaker 2: That's great stuff. I appreciate the input and chat for
Speaker 2: all the folks in the web as well, for sure.
Speaker 2: And if I can offer y'all, I appre appreciate y'all's
Speaker 2: review and again all the ideas we've shared your night's
Speaker 2: great stuff. I like to offer y'all both a closing statement, ma'am,
Speaker 2: would you like to go first? And anything you'd like
Speaker 2: to recap or anything you like to plug.
Speaker 4: I thought this movie was really awesome. John obviously reads
Speaker 4: the book every October. It sounds like it's just a
Speaker 4: part of his Halloween ritual thing that he does. I
Speaker 4: have a similar one. I watch American Horror Story season
Speaker 4: one in three every October, just something I like to do.
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of conspiracy stuff within American
Speaker 4: horror story and so yeah, it's just nice meeting people
Speaker 4: who know what's up and having a good conversation. JJ,
Speaker 4: thanks for the invite, John, great to meet you. Yes,
Speaker 4: the chat was on fire tonight, So thanks to everybody
Speaker 4: in the chat. And yeah, that's it for me.
Speaker 2: That's awesome. No, thank you, ma'amon. I definitely one thing
Speaker 2: I was thinking, and we'll turn over to John for
Speaker 2: an answer, but i'd like to get both y'all back
Speaker 2: on to discuss Program to Kill after John gets a
Speaker 2: chance to read it.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I'm down for that anytime.
Speaker 2: What do you say, Johnny Gunny closing statements, We welcome
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you're welcome back anytime to talking to
Speaker 2: these things. But you know, I would love to get
Speaker 2: your input on the Program to Kill once you get
Speaker 2: a chance to read that. And I don't knock over
Speaker 2: my micro front with the karate chop.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I look forward to that. Yeah, I'm gonna start
Speaker 3: reading it tomorrow. So yeah, and and thank you guys.
Speaker 3: And uh, I'm just uh, I'm still working on the book.
Speaker 3: I don't know when that's gonna come out, but it's
Speaker 3: it's gonna be a big one and it's uh, it's
Speaker 3: taken me a long time because I'm doing all the
Speaker 3: editing and all the drafts myself. So I'm just working
Speaker 3: on it bit by bit, but it'll it'll be out eventually.
Speaker 2: It's good to have a better uh probably you you know,
Speaker 2: you can stand behind rather than one that's timely, you know.
Speaker 3: What I mean, right, I want to I want to
Speaker 3: take some care of it. So so.
Speaker 4: Passion Project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great stuff. And I'll, like I said, I'll
Speaker 2: have all your all folks in the interwebs can find
Speaker 2: Julia's stuff, John stuff and the links and their show
Speaker 2: in the show notes. And uh, I don't have any
Speaker 2: closing statements myself other than I greatly appreciate your all
Speaker 2: time and conversation well at the time of the and
Speaker 2: shadow of the folks of the interwebs. And uh in
Speaker 2: for Operation GCD Thursdays, I'm a Patreon. I'll do a
Speaker 2: about a thirty minute preview here on the on the
Speaker 2: youtubes and the other stuff, and then I go over
Speaker 2: to the Patreon Thursdays and Sundays. But tomorrow is my
Speaker 2: first the Anatomy of a Satanic Panic, which again largely
Speaker 2: is gonna involve not this guy, not the muppet version
Speaker 2: of this guy, but the original version of this guy,
Speaker 2: Michael Lokino. You know, like I said, Psyops, I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna be like, well, I'm happy to discuss elements of
Speaker 2: satanic murders that have existed in around the sun of
Speaker 2: same situation or the process or anto these other similar murders.
Speaker 2: We've discussed this evening. But I'm really looking at focusing
Speaker 2: on unpacking the propaganda, the psychological operations, and then comparing
Speaker 2: these these major events that we know of the Son
Speaker 2: of Sam and stuff, and again showing that these aren't
Speaker 2: the only you know, these aren't these This is not
Speaker 2: the only example. It's not an outlier, right, There's a
Speaker 2: lot more of the shit that doesn't even get talked about.
Speaker 2: For example, you'll see the presidio board in the background here,
Speaker 2: because you know he was stationed to the presidio associated with
Speaker 2: the daycare situation. Is Julia's now You're head any agreements.
Speaker 2: She's well aware of what I'm talking about there, Julia,
Speaker 2: would you believe that's not the only daycar that popped
Speaker 2: off with that same epidemic and the same problem.
Speaker 4: I would believe that one hundred. I think McMartin Presidio.
Speaker 4: I mean they're just uh, you know, drops in the bucket. Yeah,
Speaker 4: if you if you can imagine. And just as a
Speaker 4: closing thought, this is a closing thought anyone who has
Speaker 4: read Program to Kill Her or they're familiar with McMartin
Speaker 4: preschool scandal or the Presidio daycare scandal. I just recently
Speaker 4: saw something saying that the movie with Robin Williams Missus Doubtfire,
Speaker 4: that character, Missus Doubtfire is based on the preschool teacher
Speaker 4: at McMartin, down to the exact look, wardrobe, everything. If
Speaker 4: you look at the McMartin preschool teacher next to Robin
Speaker 4: Williams as Missus Doubtfire, they're spitting images of each other there.
Speaker 4: So that's a rabbit hole for the listeners to go and.
Speaker 2: Look it down. I'm gonna look at as we get.
Speaker 4: Off of here, in fact, but yeah, that's just for.
Speaker 2: Sure, no, thank you. And from Presidio to West Point
Speaker 2: at that same time in the eighties there was more
Speaker 2: than one nddling scandal. So that's from coast to coast.
Speaker 2: Just that's my point. We were so as part of
Speaker 2: the propaganda and magic show. We're sold these one off
Speaker 2: incidents and say everyone, look at this incident. This incident
Speaker 2: didn't occur anywhere else. It only happened here at the presidio,
Speaker 2: within the confines of the Persida and only involved Michael Keino.
Speaker 2: And I assure you that ain't the full tail.
Speaker 4: Yeah nope.
Speaker 2: So folks want to check out more of that uh business,
Speaker 2: please check out Operation GC thursdays and uh. On that note,
Speaker 2: and if he yelled on anything else, I thank you
Speaker 2: all both for your time and folks of the interwebs.
Speaker 3: Thanks a lot, enjoyed it.
Speaker 4: Thank you
Speaker 1: O.