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<v Speaker 1>This is Doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to KFI

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<v Speaker 1>AM six forty the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on demand

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<v Speaker 1>on the iHeartRadio App.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy.

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<v Speaker 1>Wall Show on k I AM six forty Live everywhere

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<v Speaker 1>on the iHeartRadio App. Okay, I gotta address it because

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<v Speaker 1>every late late night comic has talked about it. There

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<v Speaker 1>are articles where psychologists are weighing in about it. People

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<v Speaker 1>are fan girling over this. Luigi Maggione, Kayla, why are

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<v Speaker 1>girls falling in love with an assassin?

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<v Speaker 2>Did you see him with his shirt off?

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<v Speaker 3>Nope?

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<v Speaker 2>Did you hear about his height? Did you see those

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<v Speaker 2>eyebrow policy? I heard six to two? What yes, ma'am.

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<v Speaker 1>An Ivy League Education sixty two? Oh my goodness. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I thought, since the world is doing it, that we

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<v Speaker 1>would try to do we would play. Look, I'm a

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<v Speaker 1>psychology professor, and I asked my students to do this

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<v Speaker 1>in a DIMS all the time. Let's play armchair psychologist

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<v Speaker 1>for Luigi MAGGIONI. Okay, First of all, he can't claim

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<v Speaker 1>he's insane, So that you understand that the legal definition

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<v Speaker 1>of insane is very different than our general definition of

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<v Speaker 1>having a mental disorder. Right, the legal definition of insane

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<v Speaker 1>means that they're incompetent to stand trial.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>It means that their mental illness involves such impairments of

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<v Speaker 1>their thinking that they can't even understand the trial process

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<v Speaker 1>and they can't assist in their own defense.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's him, right, I mean, no, he's

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<v Speaker 2>pretty smart. Yeah, he's pretty smart.

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<v Speaker 1>So the thinking, according to the Internet and the psychologists

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<v Speaker 1>that are weighing in in the news stories, is that

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<v Speaker 1>he has one of three personality disorders. So I thought

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<v Speaker 1>we would go through the various personality disorders. I would

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<v Speaker 1>look up the DSM criteria, that's the diagnostic and statistic

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<v Speaker 1>and manual of mental disord and we would together, if

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<v Speaker 1>you're listening, try to diagnose Luigi Maggioni, because everybody else

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<v Speaker 1>in America is all right, the big one. Let's start

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<v Speaker 1>off with narcissistic personality disorder. I know half the women

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<v Speaker 1>on the Internet think that they are dating a man

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<v Speaker 1>with a narcissistic personality disorder, but just because somebody's low

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<v Speaker 1>in empathy, and that may just mean ladies, he's a

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<v Speaker 1>typical heterosexual male. No, there's research on this you guys

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<v Speaker 1>that men actually have less empathy, And I think, if

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<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking about it, you know, from an evolutionary standpoint,

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<v Speaker 1>I would say it's because back in our hunter gatherer past,

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<v Speaker 1>these hunters had to stare into the eyes of a

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<v Speaker 1>living animal before they killed it right between the eyes

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<v Speaker 1>with a spear, and they had no time for empathy

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<v Speaker 1>at that moment. So there's a little spillover there, all right.

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<v Speaker 1>But the actual criteria for a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder,

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<v Speaker 1>which is estimated more men than women have it, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's still in like two maybe three percent of the population. Okay, ladies,

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<v Speaker 1>I hear. That's still three out of one hundred guys

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<v Speaker 1>that you date. And like everything, it's a scale. But

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<v Speaker 1>what it is is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, either

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<v Speaker 1>in a belief system like they just believe they're better

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<v Speaker 1>than everybody else, or behavior they need admiration. Stop thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about our president intellecture saying they have a lack of empathy.

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<v Speaker 1>And here's the key for a true narcissistic personality disorder.

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<v Speaker 1>All this pattern has to begin early, but not in childhood,

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<v Speaker 1>usually early adulthood. And I should tell you this narcissists

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<v Speaker 1>usually give birth to narcissists, not because it's genetic, but

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<v Speaker 1>they learn it. It's modeled for them, and it may

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<v Speaker 1>have a genetic piece. I mean, every mental thing is

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<v Speaker 1>partly biology and partly what's going on in our environment.

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<v Speaker 1>So some of the core symptoms are a grandiose sense

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<v Speaker 1>of self importance. Okay, Luigi does he think? Does he

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<v Speaker 1>exaggerate his achievements or his talents? Does he expect to

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<v Speaker 1>be recognized as a superior. Let's think about this for

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<v Speaker 1>a minute.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I mean, I think he does have talents.

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<v Speaker 1>He got good grades, he was a high achiever, valedictorian,

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<v Speaker 1>member of this special computer group at Penn.

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<v Speaker 2>At Penn, he's at an IVY league. I know he's

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<v Speaker 2>actually doing it right.

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<v Speaker 1>Also a symptom might be preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, brilliance, power, beauty,

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<v Speaker 1>belief that they are special or unique. I have not

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<v Speaker 1>heard any of the friends that have weighed in about

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<v Speaker 1>Luigi say that he thought he was special or unique

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<v Speaker 1>unless he kept it all inside. So another one might

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<v Speaker 1>be this need for excessive admiration. Again, I don't really

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<v Speaker 1>think Luigi has this need then this sense of entitlement.

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<v Speaker 1>Perhaps I just not hearing it. Lack of empathy, oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs

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<v Speaker 1>of others. If you are able to murder somebody, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think you have strong empathy. Right then arrogant, haughty,

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<v Speaker 1>or just have attitudes where you think you're just cool.

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<v Speaker 2>Again. I just don't see that this is our Luigi.

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<v Speaker 1>If I were a psychologist, I would not give him

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<v Speaker 1>this diagnosis.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, let's move to another one.

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<v Speaker 1>Some psychologists in the media are saying that he may

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<v Speaker 1>have borderline personality disorder. Okay, so I definitely don't think

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<v Speaker 1>this is him. So it's defined as a pervasive pattern

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<v Speaker 1>of an instability in interpersonal relationships marked impulsivity. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think he was impulsive here. Think you planned this and

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<v Speaker 1>it begins in early adulthood. Okay, but you have to

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<v Speaker 1>have five or more of the following symptoms. Frantic efforts

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<v Speaker 1>to avoid real or imagined abandonment.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not our Luigi. He abandoned everybody else, he went

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<v Speaker 2>to Hawaii and lost touch.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not like how a borderline I mean, yeah, a

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<v Speaker 1>borderline would be hit. Let's see a pattern of unstable

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<v Speaker 1>and intense interpersonal relationships. No, he didn't really have a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of close interpersonal relationships, not like you know, like

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<v Speaker 1>people that are borderline are like drama. Queens create drama.

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<v Speaker 1>There's fights and conflicts and then rushing to get back together.

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<v Speaker 1>The highs the lows. No, an identity disturbance. Maybe persistently

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<v Speaker 1>unstable self image or sense of self. Yes, especially once

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<v Speaker 1>he got into a lot of pain. Oh but wait,

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<v Speaker 1>recurrent suicidal behavior. Uh, chronic feelings of emptiness, maybe inappropriate

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<v Speaker 1>or intense anger or difficulty controlling anger. We don't have

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<v Speaker 1>never heard any reports that he had an angry outbursts

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<v Speaker 1>in the past. Back to you, seemed pretty calm when

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<v Speaker 1>he committed that murder. I just don't know. I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>good and give him borderline. If I'm going to be

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<v Speaker 1>an armchair, I'm not going to do it. So let's

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<v Speaker 1>go to the one that I think many of the

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<v Speaker 1>psychologists have weighed in is the diagnosis that Luigi might

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<v Speaker 1>have if somebody were actually to interview him and figure

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<v Speaker 1>it out. It's called the anti social personality disorder. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>talk about the details when we come back. You're listening

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<v Speaker 1>to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty.

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<v Speaker 1>We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.

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<v Speaker 3>You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI

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<v Speaker 3>AM six forty.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI

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<v Speaker 1>AM six forty, Live everywhere on.

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<v Speaker 2>The iHeartRadio app.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I am joining the chorus of lay people psychoanalyzing

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<v Speaker 1>Luigi MAGGIONI, the would be assassin, the alleged, the arrested.

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<v Speaker 2>For Well, actually, has he been arrested, has he back

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<v Speaker 2>in New York? Has he extracited already? I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>where he is?

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<v Speaker 1>Trying to figure out what personality disorder he might have.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's be armchair psychologists, shall we. Remember I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>a therapist, I'm a psychology professor. I do teach about

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<v Speaker 1>each of these disorders and what qualifies as a diagnosis.

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<v Speaker 1>So the one I think most applies to him is

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<v Speaker 1>anti social personality disorder. But there's a big butt and

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<v Speaker 1>it's coming off coming in a second. It's a pervasive

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<v Speaker 1>pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's the key occurring since the age of fifteen years. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>that might be it, But let's talk about you have

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<v Speaker 1>to have three or more of the following traits. Number one,

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<v Speaker 1>failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors,

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<v Speaker 1>as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's not him.

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<v Speaker 1>We have he had no police record, no problems, no,

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<v Speaker 1>repeatedly that wasn't happening. Deceitfulness as indicated by repeated lying. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>use of aliases, Oh oh yeah, he was using another id,

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<v Speaker 1>conning others for personal profit or pleasure.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so there's one. He's got to get three.

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<v Speaker 1>Number three impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.

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<v Speaker 2>That is not him. He planned.

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<v Speaker 1>If he did commit that murder, he planned it very well.

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<v Speaker 1>Number four irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical

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<v Speaker 1>fights or assaults. Nope, not him, So only have one

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<v Speaker 1>so far. We've got to have three. Number five, reckless

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<v Speaker 1>disregard for the safe of self or others. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 1>think if you pull the trigger on somebody, that would

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<v Speaker 1>be reckless disregard for their safety.

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<v Speaker 2>So we got two.

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<v Speaker 1>Next, consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain

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<v Speaker 1>consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations. We don't know

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<v Speaker 1>the answer about that. We know his work has been spotty,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't know about it. We haven't heard that he

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<v Speaker 1>ripped people off or didn't pay rent or any of

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<v Speaker 1>that stuff. So I'm not going to give that one

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<v Speaker 1>to him, but I will give him this next one.

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<v Speaker 1>Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent or rationalizing

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<v Speaker 1>having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

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<v Speaker 2>Ding Ding ding Ing.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we might have the armchair diagnosis. A lack

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<v Speaker 1>of remorse, reckless disregard for the safety of others, and

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<v Speaker 1>failure to conform to social norms. Oh deceitfulness. No, anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>that would be criteria for anti social personality disorder.

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<v Speaker 2>But guess what.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't actually be given this diagnosis unless under the

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<v Speaker 1>age of fifteen you had something that's called a conduct disorder. So,

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<v Speaker 1>in other words, in order to have this personality disorder,

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<v Speaker 1>it had to have started in school when there were

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<v Speaker 1>all kinds of problems with teachers or what have you,

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<v Speaker 1>and we don't have any evidence of this. So it

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<v Speaker 1>made me start to think maybe this is all coming

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<v Speaker 1>about because of his pain, his physical pain after his

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<v Speaker 1>back surgery. It made me wonder, can chronic pain create

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<v Speaker 1>a mental health disorder? Well, it's a two way street,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, is that chronic pain can impact our mental health,

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<v Speaker 1>just as mental health can cause chronic pain.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, it is.

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<v Speaker 1>Some of the things that chronic pain is linked to

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<v Speaker 1>is depression, anxiety disorders, post traumatic stress disorder, if the

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<v Speaker 1>pain happened from something that was a danger thing. Substance

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<v Speaker 1>use disorders. We don't know about his substance use sleep disorders,

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<v Speaker 1>insomnia or poor quality sleep. We don't know about this,

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<v Speaker 1>cognitive impairment, brain fog again, especially if he's taking opioids.

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<v Speaker 1>This could be a problem. But you got to remember,

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<v Speaker 1>pain and mental health is by we call it bi directional, right,

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<v Speaker 1>So chronic pain can cause mental health problems. Mental health

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<v Speaker 1>problems can cause chronic pain. So it's going to take

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<v Speaker 1>some time. I'm sure his lawyers are going to argue

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<v Speaker 1>that he had some degree of mental illness. Now, if

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<v Speaker 1>I were a lawyer, now I'm going to stop being

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<v Speaker 1>armchair Psychologies is not going to be armchair lawyer. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't go to law school. I have no idea what

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<v Speaker 1>I'm saying right now. But here's the case I present,

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<v Speaker 1>and again I'm defending him. So that's my job as

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<v Speaker 1>a lawyer. It doesn't mean I believe what I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 1>Does I mean I think he's a good guy? Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>he's an assassin, we think. I mean, everybody is guilty

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<v Speaker 1>until innocent, until proven guilty. But boy, there's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of footage of this one. Anyway, I would say, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>if I was building a case that he if it's

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<v Speaker 1>true that he had tried to get help for his

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<v Speaker 1>chronic pain, that the back surgery didn't work, he needed

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<v Speaker 1>a revision surgery, his health care wouldn't cover it.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe they'll find out he was with United health Care.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>It's he spent many months attempting to get out of

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<v Speaker 1>the pain, and so he acted out in a way

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<v Speaker 1>to hurt the person that was hurting him. He believed

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<v Speaker 1>in his fantasies it was the CEO of the company.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the trial, which will likely be in the

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<v Speaker 1>news for a very long time, might be an indictment

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<v Speaker 1>of health insurance companies. And you know, we're seeing this

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<v Speaker 1>voice of people rise up complaining online about this. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know, Maybe there's so much going on in our

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<v Speaker 1>country and our culture right now, and trying to make

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<v Speaker 1>sense of right and wrong and good and bad and

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<v Speaker 1>health and unhealth is so difficult. When we come back,

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<v Speaker 1>I have a guest who's a reporter who's been covering

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the fallout from some of the pledges made

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<v Speaker 1>by President elect Donald Trump when it comes to trans kids,

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<v Speaker 1>and he has a few thoughts on how people are

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<v Speaker 1>feeling in this particular climate. You're listening to the Doctor

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<v Speaker 1>Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. We're live

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<v Speaker 1>everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.

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<v Speaker 3>You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI

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<v Speaker 3>AM six forty.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the map is the Doctor.

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<v Speaker 1>Wendy Wall Show on KFI AM six forty, Live everywhere

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<v Speaker 1>on the iHeartRadio app. Well, many of you know that

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<v Speaker 1>I am a professor of health psychology, and and as

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<v Speaker 1>part of it, I do a lecture on gender, not

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<v Speaker 1>only gender identity, but also gender role and also sexual orientation,

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<v Speaker 1>three distinct concepts. By the way, it is something that

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<v Speaker 1>is in the news a lot lately because President elect

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump has previously pledged to bar transgender athletes from

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<v Speaker 1>competing in women's and girls' sports and to band gender

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<v Speaker 1>affirming care for minors, and this week the Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>is considering it. I would like to welcome a reporter

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<v Speaker 1>who has been following this story closely, Wellington.

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<v Speaker 2>Sarah, So I know i'd mess it up.

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<v Speaker 1>Wellington, say your full name beautifully. Thank you for having me,

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<v Speaker 1>and you are a writer for Chalkbeat, amongst other places,

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<v Speaker 1>and talk to me a little bit about what's happening

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<v Speaker 1>with families and those in the transgender can unity as

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<v Speaker 1>we get closer to inauguration.

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<v Speaker 4>Berb, thank you so much for having me. Doctor Wendy Well.

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<v Speaker 4>Right after the election, we started talking to families and

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<v Speaker 4>reaching out to students and their families and their communities

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<v Speaker 4>to understand how they were feeling after the election. So

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<v Speaker 4>what we heard is that a lot of groups, a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of teenagers, especially students, they're really concerned regarding what

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<v Speaker 4>President elect Donald Trump has played during the campaign. But

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<v Speaker 4>we have also seen a lot of students and families

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<v Speaker 4>that are really looking for solutions and looking to good

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<v Speaker 4>community and looking for ways to kind of like resist

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<v Speaker 4>any type of change or any type of policies that

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<v Speaker 4>may come into place right after inauguration. So I would

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<v Speaker 4>say that what we're seeing is a mix of a

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<v Speaker 4>little bit of fear, a little bit of disillusion, but

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<v Speaker 4>also a lot of people trying to build community and

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<v Speaker 4>kind of like create a space that is safe, even

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<v Speaker 4>though they don't feel as safe in the political environment

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<v Speaker 4>right now.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I have this theory that the older politicians

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<v Speaker 1>and so many of our politicians are much older, and

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<v Speaker 1>the younger generation in America are two distinct cultures. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>last night, I was actually at a party and I

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<v Speaker 1>was talking to two public school teachers and they were

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<v Speaker 1>talking about how, you know, just you know, a decade ago,

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<v Speaker 1>you didn't see kids affirming their gender identity, being non

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<v Speaker 1>binary at the elementary school level, talking comfortably about same

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<v Speaker 1>sex relationships. It's almost like they are free, and yet

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<v Speaker 1>there is this older generation that seems to be trying

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<v Speaker 1>to put constraints. As an observer of culture, what do

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<v Speaker 1>you think of that?

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<v Speaker 4>I think you're absolutely right. I've been or cancer journalists

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<v Speaker 4>for twelve years now, and I've covered this issue back

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<v Speaker 4>in Brazil and now here in the US, and I

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<v Speaker 4>see exactly what she meant. So ten years, twelve years ago,

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<v Speaker 4>when I started reporting, I would go to a school,

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<v Speaker 4>I would try and talk to students and this would

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<v Speaker 4>not be a topic that was so vibrant within the community.

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<v Speaker 4>But as years went by, now you can see pretty

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<v Speaker 4>much every school, you will see students that are more

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<v Speaker 4>comfortable with opening up about who they are. And in

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<v Speaker 4>this I just wanted to make sure that I'm being

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<v Speaker 4>clear that what used to happen before is not that

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<v Speaker 4>those people, those students didn't exist. It's just that they

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<v Speaker 4>didn't feel as comfortable coming out and talking about it

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<v Speaker 4>until later on. And what we've been saying is that

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<v Speaker 4>families in the community is a little more welcoming, and

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<v Speaker 4>so students are also feeling more open to talk about

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<v Speaker 4>who they are, how they feel, and how they want

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<v Speaker 4>to live their lives. But definitely that has caused also

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<v Speaker 4>some kind of like backlash and a lot of resistance

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<v Speaker 4>from people who are not really used to it or

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<v Speaker 4>don't quite understand what's happening.

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<v Speaker 1>And I just want to clarify for some of our

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<v Speaker 1>listeners who might not be fully informed about trans people,

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<v Speaker 1>that there is a population of intersex and now I'm

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<v Speaker 1>using a biological term intersex humans that has existed since

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<v Speaker 1>the beginning of time.

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<v Speaker 2>People born with features of both sexes.

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<v Speaker 1>It is possible to be born with a penis and

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<v Speaker 1>overstucked inside. It is possible to be born with evolva

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<v Speaker 1>and undescended testes, and at puberty then we get secondary

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<v Speaker 1>sex characteristics that may tell a very different story. And

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<v Speaker 1>so I think it is important that we allow people

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<v Speaker 1>to be as free as they want to be along

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<v Speaker 1>their journey. But there are many people, and I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>you've interviewed them, who are afraid of this.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you talk about that?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, Well, what we see now is just there is

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<v Speaker 4>a source of mind that used to say that sexuality,

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<v Speaker 4>engender identity is as diverse as the number of people

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<v Speaker 4>that we have in the world. I think we're eight

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<v Speaker 4>billion now, so there's like eight billion different types of

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<v Speaker 4>how to leave your gender identity or in your sexuality.

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<v Speaker 4>And a lot of people they realize really early on

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<v Speaker 4>that they do not feel the way that this sex

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<v Speaker 4>that was assigned to im a birth makes should be

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<v Speaker 4>right so or what people think that it should be.

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<v Speaker 4>And a lot of the students today, a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>the teenagers, they are really feeling a little more comfortable

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<v Speaker 4>with understanding that and kind of like trying to explore that,

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<v Speaker 4>and what you see is a lot of trans people,

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<v Speaker 4>so people who at one point say, well a boy

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<v Speaker 4>and a girl or vice versa. But you also see

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of kids that grow up and are still exploring.

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<v Speaker 4>So you would see like teenagers that's having teen eighteen

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<v Speaker 4>that are like, well, I'm not sure if I want

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<v Speaker 4>to have one of the two genders at all, And well,

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<v Speaker 4>that has a lot of implications. Sometimes housewives with puberty

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<v Speaker 4>blockers and medicines and actually healthcare that helps them assign

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<v Speaker 4>affirm the gender that they identify with. And sometimes it's

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<v Speaker 4>just a more like a society issue on how they

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<v Speaker 4>dress or how they present themselves and things like that.

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<v Speaker 4>So yes, absolutely there's teenagers and kids that are kind

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<v Speaker 4>of like identifying with multiple different gender identities, and each

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<v Speaker 4>one of them has one way of affirming that, either

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<v Speaker 4>medically or non medically, depending on what also left their

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<v Speaker 4>parents and their family is para comfortable with them.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I do think that we as a culture

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<v Speaker 1>need to stay out of these families. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>government should stay out. I think this is a question

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<v Speaker 1>for doctors and their patients, for families and their patients.

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<v Speaker 1>I know the fear of many parents and that is

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<v Speaker 1>the fear of the small percentage that are experiencing social contagion,

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<v Speaker 1>which you know we can't lie. That is a piece

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<v Speaker 1>of it as well, But I think it's about individual

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<v Speaker 1>families more than having governments be involved. So I just

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<v Speaker 1>want to say thank you for continuing to follow this

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<v Speaker 1>story Wellington. It will be fascinating to see you know,

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<v Speaker 1>President elect Donald Trump loves to say things and then

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<v Speaker 1>not do them, so it will be very interesting to

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<v Speaker 1>see how this all pans out after he is inaugurated.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much for being with us.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you so much for having us,

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<v Speaker 4>and please stay tuned and read what we're posting on

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<v Speaker 4>talkbe dot org and we're definitely going to be following

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<v Speaker 4>up that story and many other different stories on education.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you and thank you for listening to The Doctor

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<v Speaker 1>Wendy Walls Show. This brings the show to a close.

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<v Speaker 1>If you'd like to follow me on social media, you

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<v Speaker 1>may The handle is at doctor Wendy Walsh. But I'm

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<v Speaker 1>always here for you every Sunday on KFI. You've been

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<v Speaker 1>listening to The Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI Am

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<v Speaker 1>six forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You've been

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<v Speaker 1>listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh. You can always hear us

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<v Speaker 1>live on KFI Am six forty from seven to nine

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<v Speaker 1>pm on Sunday and anytime on demand on the iHeartRadio

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<v Speaker 1>app