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<v Speaker 1>River Page is now joining me to talk about that article.

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<v Speaker 1>River Welcome to the show.

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<v Speaker 2>First of all, Hi Mandy, Thanks thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>So, first of all, tell people why there are TikTok

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<v Speaker 1>refugees going to Red Note if they have not heard

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<v Speaker 1>the story.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's a last year Congress passed a bill that

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<v Speaker 3>requires by Dance, which is the Chinese parent company of TikTok,

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<v Speaker 3>to sell TikTok to an American buyer before this coming Sunday.

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<v Speaker 2>They just the Spreme Court just heard arguments.

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<v Speaker 3>They're supposed to be release their findings Friday because basically

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<v Speaker 3>by dancers saying no, we don't want to sell, but

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<v Speaker 3>it looks like the spring Court is going to make

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<v Speaker 3>them sell. So far they've signaled that like they're not

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<v Speaker 3>going to sell to any American, although they could be

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<v Speaker 3>changing now because the Chinese seem reportedly are on board

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<v Speaker 3>with the Alumnusk buying it. Mister Beast, I just found

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<v Speaker 3>out the YouTuber is trying to buy, so like things

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<v Speaker 3>could change, but for right now, and especially earlier this week,

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<v Speaker 3>it seemed like Red Book I'm sorry TikTok was going

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<v Speaker 3>to be banned by Sunday, and so people started flocking

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<v Speaker 3>to Red Note aka Red Book as in, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>our our favorite quotations from the Chairman Melson dog when

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<v Speaker 3>I was a little Red Book, also.

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<v Speaker 2>Called in Chinese Xiaohongshu. And so.

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<v Speaker 3>They're going there basically out of spite for American regulators

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<v Speaker 3>for taking away an app that they love, because the

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<v Speaker 3>Chinese are spying of them. But you know, if you

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<v Speaker 3>grow up in my generation of twenty nine, you know

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<v Speaker 3>you don't really have any expectation of privacy online. So

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<v Speaker 3>people don't really take you know, the government's protection of

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<v Speaker 3>their data as like something earnest. They think it's a

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<v Speaker 3>sort of cynical ploy to pical narratives, that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>We had a spirited discussion about this on the show earlier,

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<v Speaker 1>and for me, it has more to do with the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that Chinese is a geopolitical foe, right, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the thing that gets me. That's the tough nut

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<v Speaker 1>to swallow. But in your article, which I think is hilarious,

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<v Speaker 1>that you point out that all of their privacy notices

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<v Speaker 1>are in Chinese, so you may have given them your

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<v Speaker 1>four K and your first born child.

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<v Speaker 3>What are you seeing.

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<v Speaker 1>Because you joined Red Note to see what was going on,

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<v Speaker 1>and you're seeing Chinese people and American people interact on

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<v Speaker 1>red note correct.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, it's actually kind of lovely. The Chinese they

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<v Speaker 3>want to see our cats. For some reason, they've implemented

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<v Speaker 3>something called the cat tax, where if you're an American

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<v Speaker 3>you post something, they immediately.

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<v Speaker 2>Get in the comments and they're like, show me your cat.

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<v Speaker 1>What about a dog?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a dog owner.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not a cat person. Do I get bounced off

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<v Speaker 1>red note because I have a dog?

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<v Speaker 2>No?

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<v Speaker 3>Apparently there's something in the red note tax where if

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<v Speaker 3>you don't have a cat, you can use a dog.

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<v Speaker 3>I even saw a horse, so that they're pretty flexible.

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<v Speaker 3>They're more flexible than the irs, I might add. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>it's actually I mean, it's cute. I haven't seen anything

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<v Speaker 3>like overtly political. It just the Chinese people seem sort

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<v Speaker 3>of like the funnel. They're like, why are all these

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<v Speaker 3>Americans here all of a sudden, But they're like asking

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<v Speaker 3>for help with their English homework.

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<v Speaker 1>Which is hilarious.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, they're pretty cool. I mean, I you know.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know what's funny. In your article you talk

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<v Speaker 1>about people, you know, asking questions about what it's like

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<v Speaker 1>to live in America and my favorite hello from your

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<v Speaker 1>new Chinese spy. These kind of comments. But they're asking

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<v Speaker 1>questions about Americans in life here and culture, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>guessing I'm hoping at least that some Americans are asking

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<v Speaker 1>questions about them. I mean, is that going is it

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<v Speaker 1>going both ways or is the interest in one direction only?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, Americans love talking about themselves. A lot of the

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<v Speaker 3>questions are like what do you think about America? Or

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<v Speaker 3>like what do you think about you know, so even

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<v Speaker 3>like Florida and you know, then the Chinese people will

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<v Speaker 3>be like do you live with crocodiles? And it's like, no, alligators,

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<v Speaker 3>but its close enough, you know, that's sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 3>But yeah, I mean they're asking questions like do you

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<v Speaker 3>have to sell your house to uh, you know, pay

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<v Speaker 3>your medical bills? And people are like, no, we just

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<v Speaker 3>to ignore the bill collectors, you know, like it's it's

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<v Speaker 3>still kind of hug and cheap. But yeah, I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>they're they're people do seem to be like interested in

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<v Speaker 3>each other. The Chinese weirdly, I mean, because they have

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<v Speaker 3>like the Great Firewall where if you want to interact

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<v Speaker 3>with Chinese people are rather Chinese people are banned from

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<v Speaker 3>like the apps that people all over the world use,

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<v Speaker 3>like Instagram, Facebook, it's so forth. So we haven't really

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<v Speaker 3>had this cultural exchange before where it's like, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>you go on any other social media site and you're

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<v Speaker 3>seeing Japanese people, Europeans, that sort of thing. We've never

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<v Speaker 3>really interacted our Americans have never really acted with interactive

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<v Speaker 3>with Chinese people on this big of a scale.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's interesting to see.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's kind of what caught my attention because I

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<v Speaker 1>firmly believe that the Chinese Communist government will not let

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<v Speaker 1>this continue because of the Great Firewall they have been

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<v Speaker 1>able to sow carefully craft what a majority of Chinese

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<v Speaker 1>people have access to. There are Chinese people who have

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<v Speaker 1>VPNs and they have ways of getting the outside web,

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<v Speaker 1>But for a vast majority of Chinese people that are

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<v Speaker 1>just going about their daily lives, they're not exposed to

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<v Speaker 1>any of this stuff. And this has got to be

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<v Speaker 1>a nightmare for the Chinese Communist government that now they

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<v Speaker 1>have their citizens freely interacting with the Great Satan, right

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<v Speaker 1>with the enemy of their geopolitical foe. I just don't

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if they pull the app out of

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<v Speaker 1>China or if they pull the app out of the

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<v Speaker 1>United States. I don't know how long they let that continue.

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<v Speaker 1>That was my first thought about this whole thing, because

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<v Speaker 1>to your point, it's kind of cool, right, it's neat

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<v Speaker 1>that people are just communicating.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's great. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a

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<v Speaker 2>good point.

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<v Speaker 3>One thing I will say is that I've been seeing

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<v Speaker 3>posts about how like if you try to look up

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<v Speaker 3>tiedum and square or something on red Book, like nothing

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<v Speaker 3>comes up. So this is still a China based app,

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<v Speaker 3>so it is still subject to the Chinese censorship laws.

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<v Speaker 3>So maybe, you know, maybe the government will ban it.

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<v Speaker 3>Maybe they won't ban it because they still roll it

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<v Speaker 3>in a way, like they far more than they control TikTok, right,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, they have a lot more direct control over

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<v Speaker 3>Red Book.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's still an open question to me.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I think like the American government might not

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<v Speaker 3>care for it too much either, because you know, the

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<v Speaker 3>Chinese government is authoritarian, but you do see Chinese people

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<v Speaker 3>just living like fairly normal, comfortable lives, and like it

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't if you're an American government trying to create kinda

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<v Speaker 3>as a sort of like North Korea style, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>state that oppresses people and like every aspect of their lives,

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<v Speaker 3>like that doesn't quite come across just because, as is

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<v Speaker 3>the case with like even you know, the Soviet Union,

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<v Speaker 3>if you're a political dissident, obviously life is health you.

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<v Speaker 3>But if you're just like a normal person, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>it doesn't really show. The oppression doesn't necessarily show up

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<v Speaker 3>in your everyday life because you've just grown up knowing

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<v Speaker 3>how to comply the things you can and can't say.

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<v Speaker 2>It becomes like second.

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<v Speaker 3>Nature, right, So you just see people Chinese people playing

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<v Speaker 3>with cats and like living in decent apartments and cooking food,

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<v Speaker 3>and you're.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, yeah, it doesn't look like that that over there.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I think like the sort of hostility could

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<v Speaker 3>come for both governments where as people understand each other more,

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<v Speaker 3>it could be you know, the average Chinese and the

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<v Speaker 3>average American being like, why are we fighting with these

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<v Speaker 3>people they see and just like us?

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<v Speaker 1>Right yep, Now, I think that's a great point. And

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<v Speaker 1>I just wonder who's going to blink first. But hopefully

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<v Speaker 1>this will, this kind of back and forth will continue

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<v Speaker 1>because it's it's bound to be productive, right, And it's

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<v Speaker 1>my understanding that TikTok itself is banned in China.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct, that's correct.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean that's ironic right there. But I want

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<v Speaker 1>to tell you that, Yeah, I'm just you know, we're

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<v Speaker 1>just saying. I want to talk about another article you

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<v Speaker 1>did because it caught my eye because I totally agreed

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<v Speaker 1>with the headline, and the headline is porn is inevitable.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's about this story before the Supreme Court right

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<v Speaker 1>now that some states are requiring age verification on porn sites.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, as a mom whose daughter is going

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<v Speaker 1>to have to date boys that learned about sex from pornography,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm concerned about this. But the inevitability of porn I

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely agree with. Like it's been around since the beginning

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<v Speaker 1>of photographs. I bet you there was pornographic cave drawings

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<v Speaker 1>at some point. We just haven't seen them.

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<v Speaker 2>So there are like it credates the written word.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, And so what happens here in this case

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<v Speaker 1>and and you know, what do you think happens next

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<v Speaker 1>if these sorts of things go into effect?

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<v Speaker 3>So if the if these laws are allowed to stand,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think it'll make that much of a difference

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<v Speaker 3>because there are only like a few big porn sites

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<v Speaker 3>that are actually complying with the laws or just pulling

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<v Speaker 3>out of the states altogether, like pornhob is pulled out

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<v Speaker 3>of most of the states that have passed these laws

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<v Speaker 3>in Florida, Texas, so forth. But there are still all

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<v Speaker 3>of these like sketchy sides, most of them based in

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<v Speaker 3>like Europe or Asia, that are easily accessible just through

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<v Speaker 3>like a basic Google search.

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<v Speaker 2>So.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, and even beyond that, if you live in Florida,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, and want to get on porn howe even

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<v Speaker 3>though it's been pulled out, you can just like get

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<v Speaker 3>a VPN. And so my argument was that, like, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>if parents want to protect their kids from that, let

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<v Speaker 3>me restate that. Sorry, what the gut, what these states

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<v Speaker 3>are doing is giving parents a false sense of confidence

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<v Speaker 3>that they're fandling the problem when they simply aren't. You

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<v Speaker 3>can still watch porn in Florida without flashing your ID

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<v Speaker 3>that you know, up in front of a webcam or

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<v Speaker 3>another one is like you have to show your face

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<v Speaker 3>and they use AI to calculate your age bents on

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<v Speaker 3>your face. You can still access porn in all of

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<v Speaker 3>these states without doing that. It's probably just going to

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<v Speaker 3>be on the website, it's going to give you a

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<v Speaker 3>virus or something. Plus it's on Twitter slash epects something

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<v Speaker 3>like thirteen percent of all the material on that is porn. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know you don't have to provide They ask

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<v Speaker 3>you what your ages whenever you sign up, but you

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<v Speaker 3>can just lie.

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<v Speaker 2>There's you know, they don't verify it anyway.

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<v Speaker 3>So I mean it's still a similar thing with Reddit,

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<v Speaker 3>and so it's still going to be out there. And

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<v Speaker 3>I think what you know, parents should have been misled

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<v Speaker 3>to thinking that the problem has been solved. If you don't,

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<v Speaker 3>if you want to protect your kids from watching porn,

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<v Speaker 3>you should, you know, stop giving them unfiltered Internet access

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<v Speaker 3>from the time that they're like eight years old.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there are like softwares.

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<v Speaker 3>You can you can put firewalls on your computer, like

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<v Speaker 3>a you can filters all sorts of different things.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, I think that.

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<v Speaker 3>Families have to protect themselves because the government really can't.

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<v Speaker 3>And the only way it could would be basically to

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<v Speaker 3>and VPNs implement like mass surveillance of everybody's Internet activity,

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<v Speaker 3>and it would just be a Weellian It's probably unconstitutional.

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<v Speaker 1>I like the way you put it where you said,

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<v Speaker 1>it's giving parents a false sense of security. Because I

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<v Speaker 1>think you're exactly right. I think that with these laws,

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<v Speaker 1>which sound fantastic, solve it's basically playing whack a mole, right,

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<v Speaker 1>like you hit this one over here and another one

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<v Speaker 1>pops up over here. I think the better way to

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<v Speaker 1>handle this is to have ongoing conversations, uncomfortable conversations with

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<v Speaker 1>our kids from the time they're like twelve years old,

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<v Speaker 1>about what pornography is and what it isn't, which is

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<v Speaker 1>real sex. Okay, my sister gave the best analogy ever,

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<v Speaker 1>and she said to her son, pornography is to sex

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<v Speaker 1>like the WWE is to wrestling. Right, It's not anything

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<v Speaker 1>like Greco Roman wrestling.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just it's not.

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<v Speaker 1>So you got to have a more personal responsibility as

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<v Speaker 1>a parent. Even though these conversations are wildly, wildly unpopular.

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<v Speaker 1>River Page is my guest. He's with the Free Press.

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<v Speaker 1>You're writing this fantastic. I enjoy reading your work and

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<v Speaker 1>hopefully we can talk again in the future about another

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<v Speaker 1>article on something that I find interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>River absolutely, thank you so much. Mandy, all Right, have

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<v Speaker 2>a great day. That's River Page.