WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.560 --> 00:00:05.960 We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United 2 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:10.759 States undetected, undocumented, unchecked. 3 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:14.480 And complete the dang fins. This bill that we will 4 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:17.079 find today is not a revolutionary bill. 5 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:20.199 Have old your bucket where you are. 6 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:24.000 We have the facts, and I am, you know, animantly 7 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:25.719 against illegal immigrants. 8 00:00:25.719 --> 00:00:29.440 They're coming in by the thousands, Just unbelievable. All is 9 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:30.359 an immorality. 10 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:31.960 Who are you rooting for? 11 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:37.560 Those masters of the universe are added again, They're not 12 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:43.600 sending their best your man, you flowing up. 13 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:49.560 Welcome to Parsing Immigration Policy, the podcast of the Center 14 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:53.679 for Immigration Studies. My name is Mark Gricorian, executive director 15 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:56.560 of the Center, and today we're going to be talking 16 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:00.679 about one of the alphabet soup of visas. They start 17 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.679 with A and I think it for now goes to 18 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.280 V as in victor. There isn't a W yet, although 19 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:09.959 there probably will be. But one we're talking about is 20 00:01:09.959 --> 00:01:14.680 the J visa. And that's important because it covers a 21 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:20.599 whole bunch of different things. Ostensibly, it's for cultural exchange, 22 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:25.599 and anybody who's followed immigration long enough knows that that 23 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:29.480 kind of term is kind of Orwellian lie, or at 24 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:32.879 least an exaggeration because there are some people, there are 25 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:35.920 sub categories of this j visa. Some people really are 26 00:01:35.959 --> 00:01:42.439 coming for cultural exchange or educational exchange purposes, but there's 27 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:46.920 a whole lot of people coming basically as foreign workers. Everything. 28 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:51.640 Pretty much every visa program turns into a worker program. 29 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:54.760 It's kind of like the there's a rule I forget. 30 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:58.200 There's several people who have claimed this rule, and that 31 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:02.239 is that any organization that isn't explicitly conservative will become 32 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:05.560 more liberal over time. Well, I think it's a similar 33 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:10.719 thing with visa programs. Any visa program that isn't explicitly 34 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:16.360 not for employment will become a foreign worker program over time. 35 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:21.360 And so we have in studio our own Jessica Vaughan, 36 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:25.919 Director of Policy Studies, who is going to talk about 37 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:28.439 what's the story with jay visas. And one of the 38 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:32.240 reasons is timely is that many the large parts of 39 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:35.479 the Javisa program or programs within the under the JAY 40 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:41.039 visa are related to summertime. There's something called summer work travel, 41 00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:44.000 which she'll talk about. We've did a long, published long 42 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:46.960 reports about this a number of years ago. It's also 43 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:51.520 a camp counselor's program which is presumably mostly summer related. 44 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:54.039 So in a sense, this is the JAVISA is kind 45 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.520 of a summer visa, though not explicitly or exclusively, And 46 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:00.159 so it seemed that it was pretty timely to get 47 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:04.719 a kind of overall look at what's going on with javisa. So, Jessica, 48 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:08.680 thanks for coming in, and maybe you decide where to start, 49 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:12.439 but maybe what are the components of the javisa the 50 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.919 sub programs under this visa umbrella. 51 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.919 Hi Mark, Yes, glad to be here. And this is 52 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:23.479 another one of those visa programs that was sold to 53 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:30.039 US as something a cultural exchange program. But not only 54 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:35.000 are these visitors mostly workers, but also few of them 55 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:39.599 are meaningful exchanges, which you know, you would think about 56 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:44.360 Americans also going overseas, but that only happens in some 57 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:49.759 of these programs. And there are about fifteen categories of 58 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:56.800 exchange visitor visas, ranging from doctors, o pairs, camp counselors 59 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:02.439 to these summer work travel visitors workers who are working 60 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:06.280 as lifeguards and scooping ice cream and cleaning hotels and 61 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:09.879 so on. There are some that are purely academic short 62 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:15.919 term scholars college students participating in a genuine exchange from overseas, 63 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:19.240 and then there are plenty of American students who go 64 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:23.040 the other direction, or high school students as well, But 65 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:29.920 the non work categories only represent twenty percent of the 66 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:33.399 total of JAY visas that are given out, at least 67 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:37.120 as far as the twenty twenty five numbers go. In 68 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:39.759 twenty twenty five, there were two hundred and seventy five 69 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:45.800 thousand JAY visas issued, and only twenty percent of them 70 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:48.800 were in what we think of as the traditional exchange 71 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:53.519 programs like high school fulbright scholars, short term scholars, even 72 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:57.519 visiting professors and government visitors are another category, but they're 73 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.839 all much smaller than the work categories. 74 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:05.399 Just the real exchange programs would be just to sort 75 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:07.879 of clarify for people like if an American goes to 76 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:11.959 Italy for his sophomore year abroad, and some Italians say, 77 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.680 comes here for his sophomore year, But that's what a 78 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:17.480 javisa is kind of supposed to be. And there are 79 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:18.360 some people. 80 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:21.120 Like that, right, yes, there are some people like that. 81 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:24.519 There are some problems in those programs as well, which 82 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:27.879 relate back to one of the fundamental problems with the 83 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:30.199 entire program, which we can talk about in a little bit. 84 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:35.079 But yeah, and it's not an insignificant number of visitors either. 85 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:37.600 As I said, two hundred and seventy five thousand people 86 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:43.360 coming in under these programs. And the issue here is 87 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:47.519 that it is a work visa program, but it is 88 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:52.160 run by the State Department, the Bureau of Educational and 89 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:58.480 Cultural Affairs, and that director reports to the Undersecretary for 90 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:03.079 Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs. So these programs, this visa 91 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:06.639 category was invented and sold to the public and to 92 00:06:06.759 --> 00:06:12.360 Congress as a tool of public diplomacy. This idea that 93 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:17.720 I think is pretty controversial that if we just allow 94 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:21.360 all these nice foreigners to come here and experience America, 95 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:23.519 they're going to love it. They're going to love us, 96 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:25.360 They're going to go back home. 97 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:31.519 And America right, Well, that's kind of the point. Really. Originally, 98 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:33.759 that's the whole reason to have foreign students too, at 99 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:36.800 least that's the way you know, jed regular foreign student program. 100 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:40.639 But it simply doesn't work that way. It is a 101 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:44.560 honestly a lucrative, cheap labor program for the most part, 102 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:50.639 and often these experiences are fine. In a lot of 103 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:54.319 cases they are exploitative, but someone's making money on it, 104 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:57.720 and the people doing that are third parties that the 105 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:02.040 organizations that have been a proved by the State Department 106 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:05.800 to run these exchange programs. There are more than fifteen 107 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:11.079 hundred of them who are approved as quote unquote cultural 108 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:16.120 exchange organizations. And they all have these names like the 109 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:22.160 Institute for Promoting Global Understanding or you know, the Organization 110 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:24.920 for World Peace through Cultural. 111 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:26.680 Exchange, did George orwell call your. 112 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:32.079 Office right And they're nothing more than glorified staffing companies 113 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:34.439 for the most part, at least the ones that run 114 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:39.720 the work oriented JVISA programs. And this is part of 115 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:43.160 the problem. First of all, these are these programs are 116 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.959 in the wrong agency you know, State Department should you 117 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.120 know has no business overseeing these programs. It ought to 118 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:53.959 be managed by the Labor Department. But this is the 119 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:59.720 other problem is that these sponsors and the State Department 120 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:04.480 has basically outsourced all oversight to these companies hu use 121 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:08.040 companies who are making big money off of this program 122 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:11.560 off of these visas. How does it work? The sponsors 123 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:17.560 usually hire recruiters in other countries to find people who 124 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:21.160 are willing to pay money thousands of dollars for the 125 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:25.199 chance to come and work in the United States, even 126 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:28.759 study in the United States. What could go wrong with that, right, 127 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:33.360 So then they turn around and offer these workers to 128 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:37.360 employers who can pay them pretty much whatever they want. 129 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:42.200 They're supposed to house and feed them, but they're not 130 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:48.320 usually subject to the kinds of monitoring or wage controls 131 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:51.200 that exist, at least theoretically in some of our other 132 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:55.639 guest worker programs. And you know, this time sometimes leads 133 00:08:55.639 --> 00:09:01.039 to exploitation. It's like almost guaranteed to bring exploitation. There's 134 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:04.960 only one situation that I know of that has been 135 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.879 regulated adequately by a state for wages, and that is 136 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:15.279 the state of Massachusetts. Because of some horrible cases involving 137 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:18.039 pairs and OH pairs are one of the work categories 138 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:22.039 under the j VISA program, they passed a state law 139 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:26.639 that mandates that OH pairs be paid the state minimum wage. 140 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:31.879 And that was very controversial because you know, the placement 141 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:35.480 companies who actually have been forced to do a better 142 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:37.240 job to screen these people. It used to be that 143 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:40.159 almost anybody in some other country could apply as an 144 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:43.000 O pair, whether they you know, have any interest in 145 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:46.120 caring for children, are any good at it? Now they 146 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:49.080 at least have to go through training, and in Massachusetts 147 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:52.159 they have to earn minimum wage. So that's a good 148 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:55.399 example of how a state is being responsible about it. 149 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:59.039 But that's the only state that I know of that 150 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:01.360 does that. And I don't think that the state of 151 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:05.960 Massachusetts is looking into, for example, the kids work in 152 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:09.440 his lifeguards or scoop and ice cream on Cape Cod 153 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:10.960 or any of those situations. 154 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:16.519 And there's also no labor market test to prevent American 155 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.320 workers from being displaced or harmed. Right, that's right. 156 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.000 And a lot of the jobs, particularly under the Summer 157 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:28.039 Work Travel program, which is the largest J VISA program 158 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:32.440 and it's one hundred and five thousand of these visas 159 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:36.159 were given out in twenty twenty five for summer work 160 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:37.440 travel in particular. 161 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:39.600 And so they're in like resorts basically like you were 162 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:42.879 saying Cape Cod, but I mean they're in like beach resorts. 163 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.399 People often wonder, you know, I'm going to a beach 164 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:48.600 resort and there's this bulgarian girl, you know, scooping ice 165 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.600 cream or whatever it is hotel. Those those are J visa. 166 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:57.840 That's exactly right. There's some quote unquote sponsor ie staffing 167 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:01.639 company that you know, hired a headhunter to get that 168 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:05.320 young woman to pay thousands of dollars to come here 169 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:09.159 and hopefully be living in a nice dorm and meeting 170 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:12.720 nice people and getting paid, you know, and reasonably working 171 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:15.279 reasonable hours. But it doesn't always work out that way. 172 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:18.799 And our colleague Jerry Camer wrote about this for years. 173 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.440 All those stories are on our website. You can even 174 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:24.200 read about it in the New York Times, the exploitation 175 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:26.720 of j one workers. 176 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:30.879 But nothing point was American kids who want summer jobs, 177 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:33.960 you know in Ocean City for instance. I think you 178 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:37.480 may have worked in summer jobs in Ocean City, Maryland, 179 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:40.639 which is on the beach. And Jerry wrote about this. 180 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:45.080 A lot a lot of those jobs again, summer you know, 181 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.720 jobs for college students, teenagers, what have you, would be 182 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:52.720 filled in January February before the American kids who maybe 183 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:55.320 during spring break would go out there and start lining 184 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:57.759 up jobs. Well, it's too bad, jobs are already filled 185 00:11:57.759 --> 00:11:58.879 by foreign workers. 186 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:01.120 That's right. Yeah, worked in an Irish pub on the 187 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.879 boardwalk in Ocean City for two summers. So these are 188 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:09.080 not jobs Americans won't do. These are staffing companies who 189 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.559 convince employers that they can solve all their recruitment needs 190 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:16.519 by bringing in workers from abroad. And by the way, 191 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:18.720 even though their name is the Institute for World Peace 192 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:22.240 or whatever it is, they're making money off of this 193 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:26.840 arrangement sometimes, you know, at the expense of American kids 194 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:32.759 not having opportunities and visa workers being abused, and you know, 195 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.679 when they complain, they don't have any recourse because the 196 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:41.039 State Department has totally outsourced oversight to these sponsoring organizations. 197 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:46.840 And that is a problem that even when violations occur, 198 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:53.039 these staffing companies slash sponsors are almost never barred, never suspended, 199 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:57.279 never held accountable for the problems in this program. So 200 00:12:57.279 --> 00:12:59.240 it's you know, it's sort of at best a cheap 201 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:03.840 labor program that does displays Americans, but at worst it 202 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:07.200 really can involve human trafficking. Can be a form of 203 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:08.039 human trafficking. 204 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:08.279 Right. 205 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:13.519 Not only that there is a higher than average overstay 206 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:18.440 rate in the exchange visitor category that we know, you 207 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:23.159 know from the DHS monitoring of overstays that's occurred in 208 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:27.200 recent years, and you know some countries have double digit 209 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:33.480 overstay rates. We have seen a slight decline in issuance. 210 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.919 It's not really a significant decline in j visa issuances 211 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:41.799 under the Trump administration. The decline is less than ten 212 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:44.720 percent from about you know, just over three hundred thousand 213 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:47.320 issued in twenty twenty four to about two hundred and 214 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.200 seventy five thousand in twenty twenty five. 215 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:52.960 But that still means a quarter million foreign workers when 216 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:54.960 you take out the real exchange people. 217 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:58.360 And those declines happen in the scholarly categories. And I 218 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:03.159 suspect that it's a result of fewer Chinese being getting 219 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:05.399 Jay visas to come here, as you know, and there 220 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:07.519 have been some problems with those. There have been these 221 00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:12.600 cases of Chinese short term scholars who have been caught, 222 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:15.799 you know, bringing in monkey brains or taking out you know. 223 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:19.200 Espionage, industrial espionage, or stealing secrets. 224 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:23.440 Yeah, on American college campuses, no less, but I suspect 225 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:26.440 that that's the reason for the decline. The number of 226 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:30.000 summer work travel visas has stayed almost exactly the same. 227 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:30.559 Interesting. 228 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:35.200 Interesting, Yeah, And so there is this high rate of overstays. 229 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:39.600 But you know, that's something that really needs to be 230 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:42.440 addressed in terms of visa issuances, like and you know, 231 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.720 countries that with high overstay rates shouldn't be getting these visas, 232 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:48.159 and we are seeing a little bit of a decline 233 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.120 in that in certain situations. But really this is going 234 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:53.519 on the way it has always gone on. And in 235 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:57.679 my experience and observation, the people who are put in 236 00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:01.440 charge of this office at the State Apartment, the ECA, 237 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:06.879 it's called Educational Cultural Affairs kind of understand their job 238 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:12.000 as one of sort of Kumbai, ya feel good, let's 239 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:17.639 promote America. And they don't really understand how these programs operate, 240 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:22.240 how they're used, and that's a problem. They really need 241 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:25.039 to dig down into this a little bit more. It 242 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:27.240 usually only happens when there's some kind of scandal. 243 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:30.399 Now you may may or may not know this, but 244 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:34.960 this is the kind of situation where I would expect 245 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:39.799 there's some kind of revolving door where a State Department official. 246 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.679 It seems like some of them would then move to 247 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:48.000 work for these contractors that they've been paying for all 248 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:50.440 these years. I mean, this is the kind of you know, 249 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:52.720 what is it, one hand washes the other sort of 250 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:54.360 revolving door kind of thing. 251 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.799 There have been people in oversight roles who were career 252 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.519 Foreign Service officers. I worked with some of them on 253 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:06.559 reforms years ago. But usually it is civil service employees, 254 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:08.399 you know, which can be a good thing if they 255 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.000 really take seriously their role in keeping an eye on 256 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:16.159 these programs. But historically it just has not worked well. 257 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.320 I mean, there's just no way. State Department is not 258 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:23.679 set up to oversee staffing companies, right exactly, especially fifteen 259 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:27.440 hundred of them that are working all over the country. 260 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:30.600 Now, they do have to be certified or whatever by 261 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:31.279 the stay is a. 262 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:35.320 Process, right, yes, But once they get certified again, like 263 00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:39.559 there's if something goes wrong, there really is no accountability 264 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:42.799 that happens. I can't you know. I've tried to find 265 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:47.679 an example of a staffing of excuse me, sponsor that 266 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:53.799 was barred because of violations, and they can't find one. 267 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.200 They usually can't do. I mean, the State Department has 268 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:56.879 the power. 269 00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:59.720 To do that, but usually they're just suspended until they 270 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:01.000 fix things. 271 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:01.480 I see. 272 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:05.119 So the sponsor might get rid of some dodgy third 273 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:09.119 party that they've allowed to work under their umbrella. But 274 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.599 it's a very comfortable relationship that they have because this 275 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:14.240 is about world peace mart right. 276 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.240 Right, I understand, yeah. 277 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.519 Yeah, And I think that's really the key to reforming this. 278 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:21.720 I mean, you know, when you think about the kind 279 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:25.319 of nightmare scenarios that happen, and there have been many 280 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:29.079 of them, it boils down to someone seeing an opportunity 281 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:29.759 to make a buck. 282 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:30.359 Right. 283 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:33.400 The one case I tell people about a lot that 284 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.599 they're shocked by is this case. And this is how. 285 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.160 It's not just the summer work travel program. It's also 286 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:42.400 some of these academic exchanges. There was a case out 287 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:46.200 at Western Iowa Technical Community College, which. 288 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.279 Is preposterous to begin with, that any community college should 289 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.640 have any visa access of any kind foreign students to 290 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:55.519 any of that stuff. It's ludicrous anyway, Sorry, go ahead. 291 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.920 So there were dozens, I think it was about three 292 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.680 dozen from South America who were recruited to come for 293 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:08.319 what they were told was a culinary and robotics education program, 294 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:13.680 and they literally ended up working long hours in a 295 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:19.799 dog food factory, and the staffing company was garnishing half 296 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:24.000 their wages for their living expenses in the dorms and 297 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:28.680 their tuition right. And it turned out that the community 298 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:32.079 college ended up settling for like eight million dollars to 299 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:35.279 give back to these students. It turned out that the 300 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:39.200 person running the staffing company was an employee of the 301 00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:42.799 community college and a friend of theirs that was being 302 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:45.079 paid to recruit students in South America. 303 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:46.039 Unbelievable. 304 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:51.559 So explain to me how this is promoting the United 305 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:55.119 States of America as a great country and at all 306 00:18:55.319 --> 00:19:00.799 enhancing our public diplomacy mission worldwide. It just isn't a. 307 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:02.680 Couple of the other I mean, summer work travel we've 308 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:06.000 talked about, and that's the biggest work program under the 309 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:09.519 JAY visa. But the ones that people might also be 310 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:12.480 more familiar with is the camp counselor's program. Right, there's 311 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:16.920 a separate program to import counselors for summer camps from abroad, 312 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:21.240 because apparently teaching kids how to make little bracelets or 313 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:23.880 whatever it is is a job American two two and 314 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:26.440 also O pairs, which a lot of which more people 315 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.440 are going to be familiar with. Anything interesting about those 316 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:31.200 two programs other than the. 317 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:33.279 Fact that there, you know, we're still giving out a 318 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:36.559 lot of them. Twenty twenty five, there were thirty two thousand, 319 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:40.920 four hundred and seventy J one visas issued for camp counselors. 320 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.559 Sure it is absurd, and sixteen thousand, eight hundred and 321 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:47.279 forty OH pair visas. 322 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.359 And the numbers there are interesting because that's a smaller 323 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:53.160 the OH pairs. Obviously it's a smaller number, but OH 324 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:58.960 pairs are used by a pretty elite layer of society, 325 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:04.400 the very kinds of people who either themselves help make 326 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:09.839 government policy or have the kind of outsized voice like 327 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:13.599 they're in the same country club as the congressman. And 328 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:17.000 so it becomes hard to crack down on that kind 329 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.680 of thing because you're going to hear from it from 330 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:22.240 your from the wives of your golf buddies, that kind 331 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:22.480 of thing. 332 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.799 That is exactly the same with the camp counselors when 333 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:28.200 you think about it. These are camps that are usually 334 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.720 in very nice places and have all these nice smiling 335 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:38.960 people from you know, Bulgaria and Thailand and wherever for 336 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:43.920 this cultural experience at this expensive summer camp. That's how 337 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:45.640 these programs are perpetuated. 338 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:50.039 So how much of the specifics of the jvs, of 339 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:54.240 the particular labor importation programs, how much of those are 340 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:57.680 set in statue? In other words, is there an actual 341 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.400 law that says there have to be there has to 342 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:03.559 be a camp counselor program, or is that the kind 343 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:07.519 of thing that state departments say developed through regulation and 344 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:08.920 could change through regulation. 345 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:13.240 The State Department has all the discretion to determine these categories, 346 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:15.559 and in fact, they could just decide that we're not 347 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.240 going to have some of these categories at all, right, right, 348 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:21.200 if somebody had the courage to do that. 349 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:24.759 It gets back to the country club golf buddies issue. 350 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:28.559 But so the point is, and I think basically understanding awareness, 351 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:30.839 Like they're like, oh, that's the full bride program, right, 352 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.680 you know, I mean they just don't understand. So yeah, 353 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:36.240 this is my understanding is of the law is that 354 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:39.279 this is totally within the discretion of the State Department 355 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:42.720 in administer. And there are some programs that they're going 356 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:45.519 to want to keep, like the government visitor program. That's 357 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:49.359 when you know, our government sponsors some people to come over, 358 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.279 you know for some kind of interaction or conference, and 359 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:55.960 you know that's those are good programs. Those are public, 360 00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:00.359 true public diplomacy. But that's not even thirteen hundred people 361 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.519 a year, right, So you could cut this program by 362 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:09.200 eighty percent and make it an actual public diplomacy program. 363 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:13.119 But I suppose Congress could direct the State Department or say, 364 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:15.160 you know, we're only going to fund you to do 365 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:17.079 these kinds of exchanges. 366 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:20.839 Well, holding my breath on that, since Congress has trouble 367 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:23.920 naming post offices, let alone anything else. But the point 368 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:27.319 is this is something that Secretary Rubio, for instance, could 369 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:32.799 have his people work on at least rein in if 370 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:34.319 not get rid of some of these. 371 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:38.680 Categories to create some oversight right right and meaningful. I mean, 372 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:42.960 I think that there should be stifferent penalties for sponsors, 373 00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:45.880 and I think also one of the things they could 374 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:49.079 do very easily is say, if you have any overstays 375 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:53.240 who came over under the auspices of your sponsored program, 376 00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:56.400 you're not doing it again next year, right right. Some 377 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:58.599 of the people I know who've worked on the government 378 00:22:58.839 --> 00:23:02.240 run exchange program, and there are people who are getting 379 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:05.200 the visas who are coming from countries with high overstay rates, 380 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:08.640 they escort them to the airplane right to make sure 381 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:11.519 they go home, because they want to preserve that program 382 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:15.759 for the future. But no such expectation is there for 383 00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:19.680 sponsors in these work j visa programs, and. 384 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:23.359 There should be and I mean even like look O 385 00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:27.039 pairs for instance. Again the numbers are small, but the 386 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.160 kind of people who are interested in policy are going 387 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.039 to know more about O pairs probably than maybe the 388 00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:36.960 camp counselors of the summer work travel. The pretense is 389 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.799 that there's some kind of cultural exchange going on, whereas 390 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:45.440 you know, college age girls from some place changing diapers 391 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:47.160 and they get a day off a week where they 392 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:48.759 go to the bar, you know what I mean. 393 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.519 And to Americans, it's just. 394 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.079 The whole premise of it is preposterous. 395 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:58.079 It is. And it's not like again like there are 396 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:01.279 no Americans who would work, as there are plenty of them, 397 00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:02.279 right yeah. 398 00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:04.799 And the thing is though, and this is and this 399 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:07.319 is true with the summer work travel for the you know, 400 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:11.480 resort jobs in the summer, even cam counselors, is that 401 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:16.680