WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:03.600 Lucky Land casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've 2 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:04.320 gotten lucky? 3 00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:07.360 Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess ah, in 4 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:10.679 my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have 5 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:11.119 to say? 6 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:11.519 Yes? 7 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:14.480 You do? In the car before my kid's PTA meeting? 8 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:15.039 Really? 9 00:00:15.240 --> 00:00:16.359 Yes, excuse me? 10 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:18.160 What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 11 00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:19.920 I never win and tell. 12 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:20.879 Well, there you have it. 13 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:23.760 You can get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot 14 00:00:23.800 --> 00:00:25.399 com play for free right now. 15 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:27.519 Are you feeling lucky? Nope, we're not necessary boid. 16 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:28.800 We were gonna be my long eighteen plus terms and 17 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:30.960 conditions plus you say, dails, Wait. 18 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:32.000 The Lucky Land slots. 19 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:34.359 You can get lucky just about anywhere. 20 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:38.159 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 21 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:40.000 weather's five. But we're just going to circle up here 22 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:43.079 a while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. 23 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:45.560 It's just these cash prizes add up quick. So I 24 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:47.960 suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right, 25 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:49.200 and start getting lucky. 26 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:52.840 Play for free at lucky landslots dot com. Are you 27 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:56.640 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by law 28 00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:00.000 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply. See website for detail. 29 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:11.120 As you are now listening to True Murder, the most 30 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:14.480 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 31 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:20.840 have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. 32 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:25.519 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 33 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.719 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 34 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:33.239 your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 35 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:46.000 Good Evening. Sons of Anarchy meets to Departed in this 36 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:50.400 fast paced, high wire act memoir from former ATF agent 37 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:53.680 Ken Krok, the first federal agent in history to go 38 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:58.760 under cover and successfully infiltrate the infamous and infamously violent 39 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:04.920 Pagan Motorcycle Club, a white supremacist biker gang. Longtime ATF agent, 40 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:07.120 kan Crok had earned the right to coast to the 41 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.599 end of a story career, having routinely gone undercover to 42 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:15.479 apprehend white supremacists, gun runners, and gang members. But after 43 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:18.280 a chance encounter with an associate of the Pagan Motorcycle 44 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:22.520 Gang created an opening, he transformed himself into Slam, a 45 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:26.199 monstrous axe handle wielding enforcer whose duty was to protect 46 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:29.919 the leadership mother club at all costs. He befriended the 47 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:33.479 club's most violent and criminally insane members and lived among 48 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:36.599 them for two years, covertly building a case that would 49 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:39.159 eventually take down the top members of the gang in 50 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:42.919 a massive federal prosecution, even as he risked his marriage, 51 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:47.800 his sanity, and his life. With today's law enforcement largely 52 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:52.280 moving toward the comparative safety of cyber operations, he became 53 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:55.159 one of the last of its kind, a master class 54 00:02:55.240 --> 00:02:58.719 in old school tactics that mark Croke as a dying 55 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:04.159 breed of undercover agent and became legendary in law enforcement. Now, 56 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:06.919 for the first time, Croke tells the story of his 57 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:12.879 terrifying undercover life in the Pagans the Unspeakable, Violence, extremism, drugs, 58 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:17.919 and disgusting Rituals. Written with best selling crime writer Dave Wedge, 59 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:21.599 and utilizing the exclusive cooperation of those who lived the 60 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:24.599 case with him, as well as thousands of pages of 61 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:28.840 court files and hours of surveillance tapes and photos, Croke 62 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.599 delivers a frightening, nail biting account of the secretive and 63 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:36.599 brutal biker underworld. The book that we're featuring this evening 64 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:41.639 is Riding with Evil, taking down the notorious Pagan motorcycle 65 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:45.759 gang with my special guest, former ATF agent and author 66 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:48.879 Ken Croke. Welcome to the program and thank you so 67 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:50.960 much for this interview, Ken Croke. 68 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:53.000 Thanks San, happy to be here. 69 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.520 Thank you so much for joining us this evening with 70 00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:01.719 this incredible tale. Let's get right to this, uh. In 71 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:04.960 two thousand and eight, you write that a call came 72 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:07.960 into the field office, the Boston office of the Bureau 73 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:12.960 of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives ATF where you were 74 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:18.040 a supervisor. This person had a connection with the Devil's Disciples, 75 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:22.000 which was a support group of the Pagans. Tell us 76 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.959 what this person had to say, this Jake, and what 77 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:28.920 did he have to say and how you initially got involved. 78 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:32.360 Yeah, Jacob come in and had met with a one 79 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:35.560 of the agents or coaching from the Boston office and 80 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:38.319 had said that he had some information on the Devil's 81 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:41.720 Disciples and that he knew they were recruiting new members 82 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:44.439 and that he knew they were involved in some illegal 83 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.600 activities and he thought that he could do some work 84 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:52.720 or introduce an undercover agent into into that group. You know, 85 00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:55.120 if if that's something that law enforcement would want. 86 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:57.720 Now, the person that took that call is a person 87 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:02.040 named Eric Katchian, and he was an agent that took 88 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:03.439 the call you. 89 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:04.399 He spoke to you. 90 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:07.759 Why did he ask you? What was your background that 91 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:12.920 he was interested in? And tell us about this conversation 92 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:14.000 you had regarding this. 93 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:19.360 Sure, So early in my career I started in Los Angeles, California, 94 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:23.199 and so I worked a lot of gang investigations. In particularly, 95 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:26.199 I worked a lot of motorcycle gangs, and so I 96 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:29.600 was involved investigations with the Mongols and the Vargos and 97 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:32.920 some others, and the agents in Boston when I was 98 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:36.800 transferred back to Boston eventually knew that I had this background. 99 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:40.560 There hadn't been a lot of outlaw motorcycle gang investigations 100 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:44.160 in the Boston office, and so when this information came in, 101 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:48.199 you know, part of coaching's due diligence was, well, let 102 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.040 me talk to a resource who knows a bit about 103 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:54.079 you know, these gangs, and to find out if this story, 104 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.639 you know, matches, it has credibility. You know the structure 105 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.879 of gangs and and kind of their makeup and in 106 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:04.399 hearing about different things they may be doing. It's kind 107 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:07.360 of a validity check if you will, like, does this 108 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:10.040 make sense? Wese work these types of investigations. 109 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:13.160 Right, So you brought this Jake character in, or they 110 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:15.680 brought Jake in and they first off to vet him. 111 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:20.000 They gave him a polygraph test any passed, So from there, 112 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:24.560 so from there, how do you get involved in what's 113 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:28.839 this of this faithful event that happens with this Boston mic. 114 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:31.839 Yeah, it's it's it's one of those things where you 115 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.040 can plan out, you know, all sorts of things in 116 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:37.720 different ways to go about investigations, and then you know 117 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:40.120 somebody else has a plan for you. And in this 118 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:44.600 particular instance, you know, Jake passes the polygraph, so that's 119 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.120 step number one, Like, Okay, this person isn't coming in, 120 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.199 they're not lying about this or you know, trying to 121 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:52.480 set up an undercover agent. There's all sorts of different, 122 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:54.480 you know, reasons why somebody could come in a false 123 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:57.000 info and so you pass that first test, and then 124 00:06:57.079 --> 00:06:59.319 second test is like, all right, if somebody's going to 125 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:01.399 go on to cover. And again, it was never the 126 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:05.040 intent to do a long term investigation, undercover investigation that is. 127 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:07.079 But even if it was going to be short term, 128 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:10.120 you had to look at the person Jake, and but 129 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:12.079 you also have to look at the surroundings. So if 130 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:14.360 I was going to be the undercover, and initially that 131 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:16.879 was not the plan, but if I was, if Jake 132 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:21.120 has a wife or adult children or whatever that is 133 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:23.879 in his life and they're involved in this setting, right, 134 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:27.040 then you have to check that part out too, because 135 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:29.759 you can't just have somebody that's never met anybody in 136 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:32.240 his family. You know, if your backstory is that you're 137 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:34.279 with them, then then they would have to know you. 138 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:36.600 So I needed to meet in this case, it was 139 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:39.920 just his wife to see what her makeup was. Was 140 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:41.519 this somebody who's going to be able to stand up 141 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:43.439 to this, you know type of work? 142 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:48.000 And she passed the test? And then what happens with Boston, 143 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:50.680 Bob and Jake and how are you involved? 144 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:53.839 So it starts with Boston Mike, and so Boston Mike, 145 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:57.199 you know, I was I was actually helping. It was 146 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:00.519 it was freezing cold and there was a hot water 147 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:02.680 heater that froze up. It's it's kind of a long, 148 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:06.199 convolute story, but anyways, when we were helping to get 149 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:09.000 the hot water heat going, Boston Mike shows up and 150 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.000 seen and introduces himself, and he knows Jake and so 151 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:15.879 they're talking and then eventually, you know, I start talking 152 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:18.639 and just kind of hanging out, you know, bs in 153 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:20.920 a bit, and it comes up that they were having 154 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.639 a party in the you know, upcoming weeks, and he's like, hey, 155 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:26.399 you know, if your body wants to come along, you know, 156 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:28.879 have him come along. So it was an opportunity. It 157 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.279 wasn't a planned opportunity. It wasn't like, oh, let's set 158 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:33.159 the stage and you know, so we can do this introduction. 159 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.799 It just happened, which you know, at the time you 160 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:38.480 didn't know how far this was going to go. But 161 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:40.399 it was like, okay, well it makes sense now that 162 00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:42.519 I'm going to be at least the one to go initially. 163 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:44.879 And I and I, you know, the plan at that 164 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:47.000 time was okay, I'll start it and then I'll hand 165 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:50.000 it off to somebody else. But you know, his events turning, 166 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:50.879 that wasn't an option. 167 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:55.200 So you report back to Katchian and there's at least 168 00:08:55.279 --> 00:09:00.679 a short term surveillance plan set up. And you just 169 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:04.399 said that things moved really fast right after that. Normally 170 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:08.039 the kinds of precautions you do as an undercover agent. 171 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:11.279 It was interesting to read about it, and you talk 172 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:16.039 about the term backstopping. So explain everything that normally you 173 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:19.279 would have done, and in this regard you already had 174 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:23.120 an alias and from previous undercover work. Tell us what 175 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.519 all goes into building that kind of as you call 176 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:27.360 it backstopping. 177 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:30.480 Yeah, and we keep in the book we outlined some 178 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:32.600 of it, but it's really the common sense spot. There's 179 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:35.279 other things that are furthering more in each other that 180 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:37.440 we don't talk about just because we're not going to 181 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.399 give up the technology or the techniques. But the point 182 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:44.039 is is that if you're going to take on the 183 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:47.799 identity or the persona, just simple things. You know, Dan, 184 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.080 you get jumping out at your house. You know, you 185 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:54.120 have a driver's license. You have these things that seem 186 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:57.399 simple because they're legit. You got them just by living 187 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:00.799 your life. But when you have an undercover life not diseasey. 188 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:03.039 And I know most people would love to see no 189 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:05.159 jump mails show up in their mailbox. But if you 190 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.360 don't have any jump mail, that looks weird. If you 191 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:09.559 don't have flyers outside your house, those kind of things. 192 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:12.759 And so you have to create this persona and so 193 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:15.840 that it becomes as closer as real as it can 194 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:19.320 to what a real person is and that those real 195 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:23.200 types of things, solicitations and things like that would happen 196 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:27.240 to that person because these organizations they look for that. 197 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:29.679 You know, when you get for or father enough in 198 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:31.759 you're just showing up at one party, nobody's checking it 199 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:33.399 in that stuff, you show up in a couple of parties, 200 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:35.399 nobody's checking it. But all of a sudden you're joining 201 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.960 one of these kind of elite organizations, if you will, 202 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:40.840 They are going to check this stuff, and you better 203 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:43.159 have the stuff lined up in order to get through 204 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:45.360 because if you get compromised, you know who knows where 205 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:45.960 it goes from there. 206 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.720 So you go to this party and it's not really 207 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:52.600 a party, as you say, and they're trying to find 208 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.600 out information about you. So who are the people that 209 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:59.879 you meet right away? And what is the talk? Almost 210 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:00.799 right away. 211 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.519 There's you know again they're they're trying to saying that 212 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:06.919 they're trying to, you know, ask figure out who I 213 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.840 am and all that. It sounds more diligent or more 214 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:14.240 purposeful than it really is. You know, it's like anybody 215 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:16.159 who goes to a party like these these guys aren't 216 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.159 saying out of the gate like oh hey, this guy here, Ken, 217 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:21.240 we want to bring him in and make him one 218 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:21.559 of us. 219 00:11:21.639 --> 00:11:21.799 Like that. 220 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:23.519 That wasn't what the intent of this was. I was 221 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:25.799 just invited to a party. But for me it's a 222 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:29.559 job and it's an opportunity to assess who's who. And 223 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:33.039 then for the others it's you know, for them, it's 224 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:35.120 just like, hey, what, you know, what's this? What's this 225 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:38.080 guy about? You know? What? What is he? You know? 226 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:40.120 Is he a good guy to hang out with? You know? 227 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:42.240 I don't think they're looking that far down the road 228 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:43.720 where they're like, oh, hey, we want to make this 229 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:44.559 guy one of us. 230 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.159 Okay, So tell us as you as you read in 231 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:51.120 the book a little bit about the pagan history as 232 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.519 a one of the five major bike games in in 233 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:58.720 the world, and also the idea of who Jake was 234 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:01.679 in terms of you say, there's many ways to be 235 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:06.879 involved with the outlaw biker gangs, and some of one 236 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:09.639 of them them is a prospect. But explain some of 237 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:14.919 the process to us and the little history of the organization. 238 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.759 Sure, so this is particularly now a lot of the 239 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:21.240 Alsac gangs are set in it's very similar structure. So 240 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:25.360 this was Devil's Societles but the Pagans have their own structure, 241 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:29.200 but they're all, you know, somewhat similar, and so they 242 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:33.399 have hired so you basically when you start and you're accepted, 243 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:37.559 it's just a person that they like. Then it's what 244 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:40.000 they call a hangaround face and so and that hang 245 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:44.279 around face could go from six months to six years. 246 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:46.519 You just don't know how long that part of the 247 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:49.360 process goes. But what that means is you can go 248 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:52.480 to events, you can go to parties. You're not certainly 249 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:54.320 not involved in any of the criminal activity. You're not 250 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:56.399 going to church and I'll explain what church is in 251 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:00.159 a minute. You're not you're just outside. You're some of 252 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:02.919 you can hang around, but they're not sharing anything, you know, 253 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.679 particularly illegal activities with you. From there, you may get 254 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.960 asked if if you wanted to be a part of 255 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:13.200 this thing and that, and that's exactly what they said me. 256 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:17.240 And if you agree, they put you into this prospecting phase. 257 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:21.679 Prospecting is nothing anybody wants to do. It's it's you know, 258 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:25.159 it's a horrible period of time. But what it is is, 259 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:27.440 you know, the gang is saying, okay, you're going to 260 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:28.960 give us all your information. We're going to do our 261 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:32.919 background checking. Each game does it differently, and you are 262 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.039 then going to go into this prospect phase. And for 263 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:38.600 the Pagans it's at least six months long, and in 264 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:41.320 the in the Pagans, you are a prospect for the 265 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:43.159 Pagan Nation is what they call it. So it's not 266 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:47.440 to a specific chapter, and basically you are indentured to 267 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:50.200 the game. You are on call twenty four to seven. 268 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:51.879 You do whatever they tell you to do, and a 269 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:54.919 lot of it is grountwork. There are all sorts of 270 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:59.480 history rules, all of that you have to learn and 271 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:03.720 and you have to do your best not to deviate 272 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:05.879 or screw up on these rules, and certain things can 273 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:08.120 happen to you during that time. One of the things 274 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:09.799 you have to do is you carry these bags full 275 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:14.159 of all sorts of stuff, extra cigarettes, you know, spark plugs, 276 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:15.840 light bulb like. You have to have all this stuff 277 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.080 on you, and any member at any time could say, hey, prospect, 278 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:20.960 you know, give me a cigarette, or a prospect give 279 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:22.679 me a you know, I need a spark plut for 280 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:24.600 my bike, whatever it is. And there was actually a 281 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.759 list of things you had to have on and if 282 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:31.320 you screwed up, if they asked you a question, you 283 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:33.120 know the answer if you didn't. If they asked your 284 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:35.200 cigarette you didn't have one. Whatever it is, there's a 285 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:37.080 couple different ways they would deal with it. One of 286 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:38.360 the things you had to carry on you is a 287 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:40.639 calendar and you had to mark off your days as 288 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:43.480 a prospect, your goal getting to one eighty. But there 289 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:45.120 was no guarantee at one eighty you were going to 290 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.080 become a member. That was just the general time when 291 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:51.360 that could happen. And so if you screwed out, they 292 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:55.320 could add days to your prospect or weeks, which is horrible. 293 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:59.679 Or they would bangcheck you, which is basically they basically 294 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:03.120 give you a palm strike to the head, or they 295 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:05.960 could just simply throw you up, depending on the severity 296 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:07.799 of what you do. So you're under that du rest 297 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:11.159 the entire time. I mean, you know there were prospects 298 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.679 that were beaten with ax aams. It escalates depending on 299 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:17.200 what the screw ups are. After the prospecting case, if 300 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:19.320 you were to get through it, then you become a 301 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:23.320 probationary patch member and that period lasts for a year. 302 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:26.559 So your patch and so you have your colors and 303 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:29.600 you can attend different events. And then within the club structure, 304 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.840 you will have the chapter president who runs the chapter, 305 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:37.039 and there's certain signifiers on their colors that allow you 306 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.399 to know that they're the chapter president. There's Sergeant Arms, 307 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:45.039 who is the second rank highest rank in a chapter. 308 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:48.279 There is a vice president, but the vice president's really 309 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:50.759 only status is if the president gets killed or goes 310 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:53.919 to jail, then there's a treasurer. And then some chapters 311 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:56.679 will be a second term. And then above each chapter 312 00:15:57.399 --> 00:15:59.679 is what they call the Mother Club. And the Mother 313 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:02.080 Club is made up of and so it's almost like 314 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.759 its own chapter, but it oversees the entire pay, the nation, 315 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:08.720 the entire game, and each Mother Club member would have 316 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:12.000 so there'd be a national president, national vice president, National 317 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.519 Slejeant of Arms, and then but each one of those 318 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:18.679 members and in theory mother club would have thirteen members. 319 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.200 It oftentimes didn't, but in theory would, and those Mother 320 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:25.360 Club members would have areas of responsibility. So you'd have 321 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:27.720 a Mother Club member that maybe over New York, one 322 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:30.919 over Northern New Jersey, one over Pennsylvania, or they might 323 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.679 divide Pennsylvania. So I'll pause there. 324 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:37.240 Dane a couple of the things that demonstrate and illustrate 325 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.240 all the kinds of things that you talk about, this 326 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:44.639 pagan world that you are were going to enter into soon. 327 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:50.360 The guys that you met, Boston Mike and our pardon me, Boston, 328 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:54.279 Bob and Billy Jacobson. Bob tells you a little bit 329 00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:58.240 about you talked about the rules and the rules that 330 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:03.120 had to be obeyed or else harsh consequences. And Bob 331 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:08.039 tells you about Billy sleeping with I think it's a 332 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:12.680 mother club member, but at least a pagan member's wife 333 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:16.000 or girlfriend. And then also was very important. It's right 334 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:20.000 at the very beginning, whether when you're considering and your 335 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.880 ATF is considering whether you should be able to go 336 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:27.480 do this, and you see the opportunity that that presents itself. 337 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:31.920 Soon enough, there's a person named Bennett, and so you 338 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:36.119 talk about Bob and Billy, and you talk about a 339 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.559 young man named Bennett and Hogman. So tell us a 340 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:43.920 little bit about this Bennett and Hogman and Bob and Billy. 341 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:48.640 Sure, there's a lot there in all unpackage piece piece, 342 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:55.960 So Boston, Mike in so in the in the Devil's Disciples, 343 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:57.960 in the in the chapter that they were in, you 344 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:02.000 have Billy Jacson, Boston My Boston Bob, and a few others, 345 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.839 and there was talk although I wasn't, you know, part 346 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:08.960 of this talk early on, because again I wasn't one 347 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.039 of them, and I wasn't certainly in their plans to 348 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:14.200 patch over to become Pagans. But there was talk that 349 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:17.359 the Pagans are going to open a chapter in Massachusetts 350 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:20.319 and that these some of the members of the Devil's 351 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:23.319 Cycles were going to patch over, which means basically they 352 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:25.039 would turn in their callers to their gang and they 353 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:26.799 would take on Pagan colors so they wouldn't have to 354 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.720 go through prospecting. Doesn't happen often, but sometimes when they're 355 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:33.839 going to open a full chapter of regular outlaw motorcycle 356 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:37.000 game members, they'll do it. So the plan was that 357 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:40.559 these five individuals were going to start this chapter up 358 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:45.799 in Massachusetts. So the interesting piece of all that was 359 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:51.519 that you had Billion Jameson in Boston Bob. Both had qualities, 360 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:55.319 both seem to have a following. So I kind of 361 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:57.880 tried to stay in the middle and was successful at 362 00:18:57.920 --> 00:18:59.920 doing that. So I would spend time with Boston Bob 363 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.240 and sometimes we meet a bar and hang out and 364 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.119 we talk and he'd be like, yeah, you should, you know, 365 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:06.359 think about doing this. And the other times i'd meet Billy, 366 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.640 we meet down South Boston and we would go to 367 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:12.000 some bars down there and we'd hang out and he'd 368 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:13.559 be talking about how he was going to be running 369 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:17.640 these things. At some point when right as I was 370 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:20.359 supposed to be going down to meet the payments for 371 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:25.359 the first time, they were going down for an event 372 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:28.319 and it was actually a memorial event for Bennett. And 373 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:32.039 I'll go back to explain what happened there, and they 374 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:34.160 ended up going down on Friday night. I was supposed 375 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:36.720 to meet them in Long Island on Saturday night, and 376 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:40.960 what had happened is and Billy had said that he 377 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.960 had hooked up with a female down there. He never 378 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.079 got specifical about who it was or who they might 379 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:49.319 have been tied to. And I don't even know that 380 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:52.759 he knew it at the time. I do know that 381 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:55.519 Boston Bob had warned him and said, you should not 382 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:59.599 be screing around with any of these ladies down here, 383 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:02.279 because you don't know who they're tied to, and you 384 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.440 are going to get yourself into some trouble. And Billy, 385 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:08.400 you know, he just he you know, we Billy was 386 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:10.039 doing what Billy was gonna do, and he didn't listen. 387 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:13.960 So as they they went down that that Friday night, 388 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:17.839 and they were at a bar called Mobo's on Long Island, 389 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:22.839 and they they were in there and and this female 390 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.920 was there. And and again, you don't none of us 391 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.200 ever knew the real story on what happened. I can 392 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:33.400 tell you what Billy stated, and and then I can 393 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.519 tell you what others had stated. But Billy, you know, 394 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:43.759 walks in and is seen by this woman. And but 395 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:46.039 but but Billy didn't see her, but she sees him. 396 00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:52.039 And so she makes a comment to her boyfriend, who 397 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:55.279 happens to be the president of one of the New 398 00:20:55.359 --> 00:21:01.480 Jersey chapters, and says, hey, this guy over here, see 399 00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:06.200 him over there, he raped me some weeks ago. Now 400 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:11.039 that may have happened. According to Boston Bob, he said 401 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:14.279