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Speaker 1: Bunker, buncer oo bunker, fuck up. I got married.

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Speaker 2: I got married to a funcer fop. We got wedded,

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come joined in the subway, shop.

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Speaker 1: Or I'm married.

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Speaker 3: I'm married to mother fuco.

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Speaker 4: But we get joined, go white is soon a subway.

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He shot.

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Speaker 3: Stamins and biscuits and minerals. They come to me to

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my whole life is spit what con to.

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Speaker 5: To mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: I'm married to a foco who we got wedding. We

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got joining in the subway. He shot over and minerals.

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They come to you.

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Speaker 6: And then come from fuck.

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Speaker 1: I got married, I got married to my.

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Speaker 5: Fuck my monkey. You climb up in that tree. What

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you're doing up there?

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Speaker 1: Why are you scared?

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Speaker 5: While you running from every debate you were from Andrew

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and from me?

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Speaker 7: I do monkey, mat o, my dila monkeys with them bananas,

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be's rains hanging down upside down.

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Speaker 5: Found that's a smile. Met so monkey, what you're doing

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to me.

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Speaker 8: Climbing up that tree.

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Speaker 5: Matt and a female male monkey climbed up the tree,

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k s s and he ain't doing much more and

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worse than that.

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Speaker 7: Muh madal monkey, my deal.

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Speaker 5: Madla monkey.

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Speaker 1: You know the flogs with them banadas.

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Speaker 7: That's rain trees hanging down outside down found.

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Speaker 1: That's a smile.

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Speaker 5: That so monkey, what you're doing to me?

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Speaker 1: A clement of that tree?

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Speaker 5: Give me and nanaa nanana.

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Speaker 8: One more than because.

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Speaker 5: My name is mad marg A. But I say it's

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not a banana. I say it's a JJ that reminds.

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Speaker 8: Me of j hes me and that's a fake.

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Speaker 7: Oh, Madlakey matla argy.

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Speaker 5: Madila monkey, you say, hockeys with a bananas between that

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standing down outside down frown. That's a smile, that's all monkey.

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What you're doing to me, maje a monkey? What happened

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to your baby? I thought you was all about reason

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and it was all about science, but now you say,

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in all kind of bunch of nonsense.

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Speaker 9: Advance AI capabilities.

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Speaker 4: So where do we get the Bible from?

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Speaker 9: Did you even read the cannons?

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Speaker 8: There is only one charge. You are in a culture.

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You're a gobbling a demon, a bull merchard.

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Speaker 10: You're so mean.

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Speaker 8: I'm your dude? Is this your personally webs shay, I

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need a gender Jew can't take it. He's a little to

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your sable bodies on your dude. I want plus one

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plus one equal free. It comes out of doll the tree.

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Why do you pray eat dead people?

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Speaker 1: The traditions? Ma new heretic?

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Speaker 4: Un your dude, is this your personal webs shaggy.

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Speaker 1: I need a gender jew.

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Speaker 8: I can't take it.

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Speaker 11: He's a little to your sable boys, un your dudeistic justification.

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Speaker 8: Are not married to a bunko pap?

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Speaker 4: Oh oh, we got better conjoint in the subway shop?

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Speaker 3: A whoa hello to a bunkop?

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Speaker 12: Whoa remmens and men?

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Speaker 3: Who goes? They come to meet with two? It's been

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watching them too.

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Speaker 4: Whoa oh oh.

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Speaker 8: Oh, we got wet coaches in a subway shop.

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Speaker 9: Oh whoa, we got wetted coats in a subway shop.

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Speaker 3: Whoa like a share?

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Speaker 8: Nerds?

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Speaker 10: Like a share?

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Speaker 8: Nerds? We got weted?

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Speaker 1: Got us in a subway shop?

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Speaker 11: Oh y'all ready for some debate action, some hot debate action.

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Speaker 3: This is how I get hyped up for.

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Speaker 13: This.

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Speaker 3: One's my favorite.

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Speaker 14: The patty label one joint.

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Speaker 3: In the sub bays.

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Speaker 15: Shock, whoa, whoam mid roly to me?

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Speaker 16: Like watching.

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Speaker 17: Whoa whoa in somebody's shop?

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Speaker 18: Who oh, all your traid nerds need to like a share?

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Speaker 3: Where the nerds at? Where them haters at.

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Speaker 9: Some shot.

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Speaker 3: You know, they don't want to smoke. You have an

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Orland don't want to smoke. We're gonna talking about all right,

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let's do it. Welcome everybody, another open debate. I noticed

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when I make it any topic, we don't get the heat.

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For example, last night, no one called into debate in

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four hours, which was unique.

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Speaker 10: We had what do we have?

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Speaker 3: We had like Q and A for four hours. We

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had a lot of interesting topics. But I don't know

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if it's a new layer of throttling due to the

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predilection that's going on, because you know, for a while there,

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every time my live streams start edging up towards thirty

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forty thousand on the average, suddenly it drops back down

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to fifteen. Now, that could be throttling. I think that's

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probably what it is, But then again it could be

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also every time time I try to shift away from

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debating idiots, I get half the views because people just

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love seeing dumb dums be dumb dums. It's just like

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a thing, you know, people just love it.

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Speaker 19: It's just a thing.

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Speaker 3: And Gavin Ortland is pushing a lot of things against

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orthodoxy because so many people are going to Orthodoxy. Have

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y'all not figured that out yet? Why are all the

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people addressing and talking about orthodox because everybody's converting? What

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do you think they wouldn't if it wasn't happening, They

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wouldn't care, they wouldn't address it. They would just do that,

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They would do their thing. But these positions are so

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lame and so weak. And all these people shoot themselves

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in the in the in the foot too because their

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positions are so weak and the actions that they take

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are not really conducive to the best way for them

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to prove their points in defendent positions. Then again, I

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guess they're doing the best they can for their positions.

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I don't think they know what else to do, you know.

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I mean, look, Redeem Zoomer much bigger channel than Ortland.

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Dude just quit. He just retired.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: Grant that he's about twenty. He doesn't want any smoke

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for me, Well, Gavin Orland wanting smoke means he wants

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to make comfortable videos on his own. But I mean,

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how many times do we have to address these same

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topics We've addressed icons since twenty eighteen, over and over

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and over and over, and I make the videos over over,

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no over, and I make the open debates over and

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over and over, and it's always the same stuff. And

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I don't know what the answer is. Maybe I should

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just literally list every question and make a eight minute

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video on every question. Is that only the only way

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to do it. Sean Cobble says, we have so many

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catechumen in our parents. He has pretty much every Orthodox

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church that I hear about, and I know a lot

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I hear a lot has doubled, and so people are

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getting tired of all this just stupid stuff. All Orthodox

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have to do is just be Orthodox and the people

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are gonna come. We don't have to have funko pop

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gimmicks creating funko pope. We don't need, you know, stupid

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people don't want these gimmicks. Yeah, our church doubled in

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the last couple of years, so I mean my personal parish,

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another parish also doubled. I want to see, like the

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debates that you guys want to see is really, I think,

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for your entertainment. And you know, I've been debating for

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a long time, and you know, I don't mind entertaining debates,

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but after a while it's kind of like sometimes debates.

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Sometimes debates give the impression that stupid positions are tenable.

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Does that make sense in In other words, it's a

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disservice sometimes to even do a debate with certain people

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in certain positions, because it gives them credibility. It gives

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the impression that these are some serious you know, these

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are some serious things that need to be taken care of. Yeah,

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we really got to address this now that we've got

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a dude who says he wants to debate me on

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Trinity today. He's got an AI picture of himself trying

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to make himself chattified on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: He said, I.

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Speaker 3: Would love to debate you on the Trinity Sun. So

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we'll see if Alex comes to debate, not Jones, We'll

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see if he shows up. I see Alex in the quay.

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Maybe that's him. Y'all want to go ahead and get started.

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Let's see if this is Alex? Where is everybody today? Saturdays?

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This should be a perfect day for a crowd. We

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got I mean we just started, but we got four hundred.

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Let's see what we got going today. Alex, what's up?

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Are you the dude from Instagram?

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Speaker 1: Thanks for calling me an AI generated person?

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Speaker 3: It's a joke, dude. Yeah, well obviously, obviously, I don't

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mean you yourself or AI generated. I said your picture.

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Speaker 1: On Instagram, we're here Instagram? Is it Ai generated?

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Speaker 3: I'm not making jokes. They always make jokes. What's up?

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What's what's up?

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Speaker 1: I would love to debate you, but.

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Speaker 20: In Danish time, it's like seven and my boys six,

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So we should definitely schedule like a whole evening where

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we can.

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Speaker 1: Get it on.

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Speaker 3: Can you debate a little bit?

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Speaker 1: Right now? You're asking me to to not to take

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care of my son, but.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so now yeah, now it's on the world. Yeah,

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I'm an eve, a moral person. I'm asking you to

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debate when you wanted to come debate now.

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Speaker 20: I'm just I'm just saying we should schedule a day.

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I'm not calling you evil, but I can give you

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like an like an.

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Speaker 3: Why would I give a random ask dude a whole

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evening that I don't even know who you are.

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Speaker 1: That's a good point, so I would. I've been making.

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Speaker 20: YouTube videos about why the Trinity is falls, and I

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base it basically on.

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Speaker 1: My understanding of the Bible.

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Speaker 20: Being Protestant, I believe in interpreting the Bible directly instead

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of going to the church fathers and.

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Speaker 1: And you know, doing it the Catholic slash Orthodox way.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, why should we think that's true.

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Speaker 1: My way of reasoning and interpreting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, why do you think that that's the approach we

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should take on what basis is that true?

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Speaker 1: Well, you're right, maybe we should go Yeah, you're right.

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Speaker 20: We could approach it in a more fundamental level and

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talk about whether or not we have direct access in

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reasoning with God by reading His word and interpreting script scripture.

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But I guess that's a different, different topic.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean you said I start with a Protestant approach,

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and I'm asking you, how do you know that that's

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the right epistemic approach to the Bible?

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Speaker 20: Well, I don't know if I would call myself. I

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don't know if I live up to every tenant of

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being a Protestant. I think Protestantism has fallen, you know,

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it's a Protestant is a past a two original Protestantism.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know if the original Protestants were Trinitarians.

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So you're an Aryan? So how does that? How are

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you the truth? How are you an original Protestant exactly.

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Speaker 1: I'm not, that's that's kind of my pointment, but I would.

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Speaker 3: But they had the right, they had the right hermaen utic,

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they had the right approach to interpreting the scriptures.

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Speaker 1: Partly, I mean they believe that they should.

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Speaker 20: They have that humans reason with God by reading the Bible,

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having access to the Bible, on being you know, persecuted

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for for owning a Bible like the and a Baptist

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and Huguenots and and and all of these people who

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actually believed in in.

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Speaker 1: Meeting every day.

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Speaker 3: And okay, so I mean does the Old Testament throughout?

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Do you believe the Old Testament? You reject it?

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Speaker 1: I completely believe in the Old Testament. I'm actually a

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Sabbath keeper.

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Speaker 3: Oh so you're so, you're a judaizing heretic as well.

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It makes sense that all those things usually go together.

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How come throughout the Old Testament the Angel of the

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Lord is called Yahweh and presented as.

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Speaker 1: Divine, Come again, come again. I didn't get that last part.

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Speaker 3: How Come the Angel of the Lord throughout the Old

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Testament is called Yahweh and presented as divine and worshiped.

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Speaker 20: Because an angel it means just a messenger. So Jesus

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Jesus was called even though Jesus is divine. I believe

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Jesus is divine. I believe Jesus is a literal son

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of God, which the trainy.

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Speaker 3: So you think there's multiple gods, you're a polytheist.

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Speaker 1: That's a great question.

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Speaker 20: And that's one of the things that would bring up

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in my debate is that I would start by defining terms.

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Speaker 1: So when when when you say God? Right? When you

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when you use the term God.

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Speaker 20: An average person on a Danish street anyway, but probably

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like wherever in the West would think of the term

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God as the source of everything and omnipotent, omniscient entity, right.

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Speaker 1: H And.

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Speaker 10: And I.

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Speaker 1: Don't think that Jesus fits that that definition of.

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Speaker 20: Being a god, even though I don't have a problem

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calling Jesus God because he fits a different definition of God.

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Speaker 3: So you believe in multiple gods, you're a polytheism.

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Speaker 20: I believe, no, hold on, I believe in multiple definitions

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of God. But I only but I believe just as

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the Bible says that there is only one true God,

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there is only one the most High, there is only

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one the Ancient of days.

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Speaker 3: So then why in the Old Testament, is the Angel

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Lord given all the same titles as the One God Yahweh.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he is.

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Speaker 3: Well all of those passages, like in Judges where it

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says Gideon that says Yahweh turned his face to Gideon.

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Hagar says she saw God face to face. Jacob says

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he wrestled with God.

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Speaker 20: Yeah, so that I that's what I'm what I already answered,

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Jacob did wrestle with God, but it was not the

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One True God.

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Speaker 1: He wrestled with Jesus in his pre human form.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but the Old Testament calls the Angel of the

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Lord the glory of God the face of Yahweh in

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Judges six.

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Speaker 21: Yes, Jesus is the glory of God's So.

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Speaker 3: There's a created glory of God God. So now you're

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apoltheis no.

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Speaker 1: Hold on hold on bro So.

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Speaker 20: The One True God, the most High, the Ancient of days. God,

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the Father had a son before he created the universe

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through his son, just like the Bible says.

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Speaker 3: Right, he had a son before he created the universe

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through his son.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 3: Okay. In John one, does it say that the son

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began to be or does it say that he was

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always with the Father.

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Speaker 1: It says that in the beginning God, in the beginning.

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Speaker 3: He was what's the rest of our.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's let's go and read John.

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Speaker 20: But I can't have the whole debate tonight. But I

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get why you would want to have like a teaser tonight.

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So but anyway, Jesus, there are many, many, many Bible.

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Speaker 19: Verses where you're not going to answer what I just said?

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Speaker 1: What did you just say? What does John?

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Speaker 3: You don't know John one one, I do.

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Speaker 1: In the beginning was the word, and the word was

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with God, and the word was God.

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Speaker 3: There you go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's what I'm saying this, that's.

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Speaker 3: Not what you're saying. That's the opposite of what you're saying.

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Speaker 20: No, I'm saying that this fits the definition, the second

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definition of God.

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Speaker 1: I have the Bible.

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Speaker 3: There is no second definition. That's something you made of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but there is Where where is that? If

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you hear me out?

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Speaker 3: Where in John one is there two different definitions of

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the word God.

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Speaker 1: The word was with God, the word is Jesus.

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Speaker 3: And the word was God. Yeah, where in that verse

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is there two gods?

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Speaker 1: In the middle of the verse, it was with God.

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Speaker 3: You're an idiot. Come on, you're an You're an idiot.

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Get out of here, Moving on. That was so stupid

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in the middle of the verse, there's two different gods.

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I knew that was a waste of time. I don't

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even know why I wasted some time with that. Did

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the stream cut out for a second? So look, enough

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of that. Welcome everybody. We're going to be open topics today.

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The topics are anything theological regarding Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Atheism, Gnocissism,

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Hebrew Roots, Arianism, Mormonism, cult sects, Black Heeber, Israelites, Calvinism.

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If you got a question, okay, I guess. But I'm

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looking for people who disagree, people who want to debate.

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I want to hear good arguments. That guy had no

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arguments at all. He didn't even know what John one

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one was without going and turning to it and reading

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the rest of it and then saying that there's two

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different types of God in John one one and his

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Protestantism led him to his Arianism. What a great testament

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to the stupidity of Protestantism Protestantism that this guy, this

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Danish genius, has been led to polytheism. And you notice

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that it's polytheism because for him there's two types of gods.

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There's God, the ultimate God, and then the gods that

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God created, like Jesus, the Son of God, who is

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a created God. And yet Hebrews One, the entire chapter

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of Hebrews One, explains that the Son created everything, and

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so there's nothing superior to him. There's nothing that came

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to be that he didn't create, which means that he

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wasn't a creature. Well, I don't know. The internet must

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have cut out for a second, I don't know, but

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that was really stupid of the show. So if you

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want to call in, please do call in here and

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make your arguments.

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Speaker 1: Hello. Yep, hey, Jay, A big fan of yours.

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Speaker 22: And I'm basically just looking into Eastern Orthodoxy as a

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protest then, and even though I've appreciated at the depth

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and the richness of the faith, obviously there aren't just

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some issues that I'm like kind.

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Speaker 1: Of wrestling with.

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Speaker 22: Which are the typical ones, which are the most basic

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would be like justification by faith, the atonement, and obviously

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you know the script authority of scripture.

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Speaker 1: I just had a couple of questions on a couple

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of verses on like justification by faith and that toonement

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if you don't mind.

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Speaker 22: Okay, So in terms of like just the official like

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Eastern Orthoic position, just to kind of simplify and make

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it clear, would it be that like kind of similar

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to the Roman Catholics where you're initially initially justified by

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faith and it works out through love and your works

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or is there not that type of a distinction with you, guys?

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Speaker 3: I think it's faith working through love. Is the living

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faith that counts. We don't have the rigorous sort of

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strictures that Rome has about all these categorizations of venial

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and mortal sins and all of that. But the faith

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has to be living in active for it to be

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a faith that counts. Absolutely, gotcha, gotcha.

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Speaker 1: Obviously I agree with that statement because it's biblical.

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Speaker 22: But like, let's just say, hypothetically, if I word to

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just quote like Romans three, where it says like we

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pull that one is justified by faith apart from words

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of the lot.

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Speaker 1: And just kind of stop there, like period.

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Speaker 3: Would that be like an issue now it's rather just

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what that word means, and so the and the pro look,

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I'm not I'm gonna I'm not trying to be rude,

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but I've addressed this probably five hundred times. So if

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you want to go over here to my Eclipse channel,

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you'll see I have two talks right there that deal

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with the doctrine of Calvinism. And even though it says

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Calvinism by extension, this this part one and part two

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here will address all of the Protestant doctrines. So I

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would say watch that if you in terms of Protestant

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doctrines of penal substitution and atonement, I have a video

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right here called penal substitution refuted it in Byzantium, as

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well as all of the Calvinist doctor uh talks that

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we've done, and uh, if you want to see this

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really loud, bro, I'm just gonna go ahead and turn

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that off. The debate we did with Dale right here

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on the CLIPS channel covers the issue of soul script trup.

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So remember, guys, most of the FAQ questions that you have,

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I just I guess there's just no easy way to

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make these always available, but inevitably every time, I'm not fussing,

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I'm just saying, like the topics are always into being

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those things, and we have multiple multiple but I mean basically,

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any live stream open debate that we've ever done covers

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those topics. But that's okay. I'm not pussy Nicodemus. Nicodemus,

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are you there? Don't haggle with me over stupid ass

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spurgey how you doing?

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Speaker 10: I would probably have one of those questions for you.

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Speaker 23: So for those partisans that are saying that, you know,

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the Orthodox or pagan worshippers or idle worshippers and that

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kind of thing, I get that there's new testing references

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to burning incidents or to the Saints and that type

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of thing, But is there ot references that I can

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share with those people that are that are saying those

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kinds of.

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Speaker 3: Things of burning incense or you.

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Speaker 23: Know, basically saying that Orthodox are worshiping idols because they

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have icons and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 10: There.

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Speaker 3: So in Joshua seven, Joshua rends his clothes and he

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falls before the arc on his face until the evening,

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and the Elder of Israel prostrate as well, and they

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put dust on their heads. So they're prostrating before the arc,

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which has two angels on it.

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Speaker 10: Okay, is And I'm familiar with that one. Are there

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are the ones I can share with them? I mean

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that is a good one.

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Speaker 3: I think its Chronicles twenty nine. Somewhere in there. All

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of Israel does the exact same thing in front of Solomon.

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Speaker 10: Okay, excellent, fantastic, thank you sir.

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Speaker 23: What about I mean, if I may add up to that,

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what about like the later Jews, like even Asidic Jews,

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do they have also I mean, do they continue this

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kind of practice or not?

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Speaker 8: They?

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Speaker 3: He said, Jews believe that righteous do intercede. I think

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that pray for the dead, going from memory. But they

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don't have icons or images because they believe that it

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has to be what's prescribed in the Torah. So they

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have to have a temple in Jerusalem. You can't build

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your own arc of the Covenant.

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Speaker 10: Okay, awesome, all right, thanks for blush flow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, those are great questions. Appreciate those questions. Those aren't

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no questions. Welcome everybody. It's open for them if you

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have your questions. Topics for debate, challenges, disagreements. Remember the

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topics are fairly broad in terms of anything religious related. Bible,

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church history, patricians, councils, Islam, Kuran revelation PROTESTANTSM Colvin doesn't evangelicalism,

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00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,000
arianism called Hebrew roots, JW's et cetera, et cetera. It

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00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,480
is your day, Parker Scott. What's up, dude? If you're

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00:33:54,519 --> 00:33:57,240
watching on YouTube, you can call in through the link

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00:33:57,359 --> 00:33:59,559
right here on Twitter. So come and join me.

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Speaker 24: So, Jay, Yes, So I was debating my friend on

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TikTok Live like an r tar and analyzeder that.

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Speaker 21: But he he's a solempsist.

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Speaker 24: And uh, usually when i've when I'm absolutely lost, I

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just go to your channel because it seems like you can.

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Speaker 1: Like pretty much back up everything. So I went to

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Ja's analysis and I read the.

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Speaker 20: Refute refutation of solutism, but I still didn't really understand it.

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Speaker 1: Would you be able to?

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Speaker 3: If you talk about that old ass article that I wrote,

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It was like one page, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I

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mean it's basically just the point is just very simply

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that if solipsism is true, you could never know that.

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In other words, you can never have justified true belief

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knowledge that soltism is true, because it's a self defeating belief.

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Because if everything is a projection of my mind, then

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I don't really know what is what isn't a projection

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of my mind?

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Speaker 10: Right?

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00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 3: In other words, I don't have anything to compare it to.

470
00:35:02,599 --> 00:35:07,119
And so if everything is in that sense like illusory,

471
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,960
then I don't have a benchmark of the true to

472
00:35:11,039 --> 00:35:13,320
compare the illusory to or the false two.

473
00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: Right, And yeah, literally in an illusion?

474
00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 3: So well, And also, how would you know that everything

475
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,679
is a projection of your mind? It also seems like

476
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,079
something that that wouldn't be possible to know even if

477
00:35:27,159 --> 00:35:30,079
you thought it was the case, Like, how do you

478
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,800
prove or demonstrate that everything is a projection of your mind?

479
00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:35,320
It just seems like some kind of weird, you know,

480
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,440
eccentric belief that a person might have.

481
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean everyone knows that, even the sol

482
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,199
syste will tell you like they don't live like that.

483
00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:45,559
Speaker 3: I like, yeah, that's true.

484
00:35:45,639 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 24: Yeah, Like you're not debating a microwave right now, you're

485
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,960
on TikTok lack debating me. I got one more question, Yeah,

486
00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:55,880
what do you think about Jonathan Pagot's work with like symbolism,

487
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,320
because that's what originally attracted me to Eastern Orthodox Uh,

488
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,440
do you think it's a little out there? Because sometimes

489
00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:04,639
he won't be He'll be kind of like Jordan Peterson,

490
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,880
where he will kind of like dodge it and people

491
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,159
will be like, what do you think about the you know,

492
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,119
Adam and Eve, And he'll be like, that's the best

493
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,920
way to explain the event that occurred, and it is

494
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:17,239
explaining events.

495
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,079
Speaker 1: Do you think that could be like a slippery slope? Overall?

496
00:36:21,159 --> 00:36:24,199
Speaker 3: I really like Pagio, you know, known it for several years.

497
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:29,039
We've always had overall pretty good rapport. The one area

498
00:36:29,079 --> 00:36:31,280
where I disagree would be that I would take a

499
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,320
stronger stance on the historicity of Adam and Eve. But

500
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:40,119
I think he's intending to express good, good principles and

501
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,920
the truth overall. So I would say it's an area

502
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,840
where we disagree, but we agree on pretty much everything else.

503
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,519
So yeah, I would just take a stronger stance on

504
00:36:50,599 --> 00:36:51,039
that issue.

505
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, thank you buddy.

506
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, thank you, good questions.

507
00:36:59,679 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 8: Thanks.

508
00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 3: I appreciate that, John claud Van Johnson, we got a

509
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:10,840
JCBD fan and audience appreciate that. Sarah Fime, what's up man?

510
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:14,840
It's open for him. That means you can call in.

511
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,039
I don't know, whatever. What else is there to do today?

512
00:37:18,039 --> 00:37:20,559
Where is everybody. Why do we not have our usual

513
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,679
thousand live here? What's going on.

514
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 19: Saturday?

515
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:25,159
Speaker 3: What's up?

516
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 10: Man?

517
00:37:26,119 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 1: Hey man? I have two questions. The first one is

518
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,440
kind of debated, but it's not my position. I debated a.

519
00:37:33,519 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 25: One as pentecostal, which is kind of hard, arguing tradition

520
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,440
and telling him that he's following a heresy from two

521
00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:43,559
fifty eighty when he truly believes that, like the church

522
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,559
was revived in the Zuosa Street Revival.

523
00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:49,639
Speaker 1: So he states Acts.

524
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 25: Two thirty eight as Peter commanding everyone to be baptized

525
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,360
in the name of Jesus. And I point towards the

526
00:37:58,559 --> 00:38:03,119
end of Matthew, Christ literally commands the apostles to baptize

527
00:38:03,119 --> 00:38:03,920
the name of the Father.

528
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: Son, and Holy Spirit.

529
00:38:05,159 --> 00:38:08,159
Speaker 25: And his argument is that if they are baptizing in

530
00:38:08,199 --> 00:38:11,800
the name of Jesus, then their ergo Jesus is the Father,

531
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,119
the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

532
00:38:13,199 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 1: That's like his whole argument is predicated on that one verse.

533
00:38:17,039 --> 00:38:19,599
Speaker 25: And I didn't know how to really go about, Like

534
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,599
I feel like there's a lot of cognitive dissonance, like

535
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,519
in a factor in this, But I mean, why would

536
00:38:25,599 --> 00:38:29,119
the apostles baptize in Jesus's name only and not the Trinitarians.

537
00:38:29,199 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 3: Well they're not. It's just that's just a terminological stand

538
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,320
in for in the name of the Father, Son and

539
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,039
Holy Spirit. So in other words, when you say the

540
00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:40,880
name of Jesus, what's assumed is that it is the

541
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,800
Trinitarian baptism. It's not literally only baptizing in the name

542
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,079
of Jesus. So that's that's just kind of a silly

543
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:54,760
hermeneutic assumption that many cults will bring to a text.

544
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,920
And if you're dealing with somebody who's so low tier

545
00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:01,280
that they are basically using one verse as the lynchpin

546
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,199
of the restoration of their sect, you're dealing with somebody

547
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,679
whose borderline probably retorted. So I would say a better

548
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,679
approach than because that kind of person has a cult,

549
00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:15,320
has cult blinders to all the verses are going to

550
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,320
throw at them. You need to bring a heavier machinery

551
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,719
to the debate and just cut out everything from underneath

552
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:30,119
him and say that your sect didn't exist. And the

553
00:39:30,199 --> 00:39:33,719
people that put the Bible together are the or the Orthodox,

554
00:39:34,039 --> 00:39:37,159
So how are you going to understand a book better

555
00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:39,360
than the people that put it together? And you don't

556
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,840
even have the right collection of the books. That's a

557
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:47,280
much that'll that will destroy the thing that undergirds because

558
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,880
when you get into it with these idiot cult members,

559
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,840
they'll never stop throwing texts back and forth at you.

560
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,199
It's just a it's a never ending well what about

561
00:39:56,199 --> 00:39:57,880
this verson, what about this Urson? What about this verse?

562
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,159
And they don't care about the like harmonizing all the

563
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,880
verses right because they think, well, now, but I go

564
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,480
by this verse. So undercut all of that with pointing

565
00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:14,360
out through the canon argument that like you're not even

566
00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:16,960
in the church, you're not a church, Like you don't

567
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,280
have the Bible, you're not anything except the crazy cult.

568
00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:21,480
You gotta be stretched out.

569
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 25: Yeah, so like battle the biblical presuppositions before we even

570
00:40:25,039 --> 00:40:28,320
go to the scriptures. All right, next next question I have.

571
00:40:28,559 --> 00:40:32,800
This one isn't necessarily a topic of debate. I have

572
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,199
a friend who is inquiring into Orthodoxy and he's starting

573
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,159
to read some of Father Seraph and Roses books, which

574
00:40:39,679 --> 00:40:41,920
I think is not, you know, too bad. He a

575
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,840
lot of what he writes is kind of open for

576
00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:48,199
anyone to sort of get into spiritual wise, but he

577
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,480
kind of read he's sort of reading the soul after death.

578
00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: And the conclusion that he comes to after reading.

579
00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 25: The position on the toll houses is that every religion

580
00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:01,360
can be a pathway to God if after death we're

581
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,519
able to uh sort of atone for our sins on

582
00:41:04,639 --> 00:41:07,199
earth and turn to Christ after death. And I think

583
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,000
a lot of it is him kind of coping with

584
00:41:09,039 --> 00:41:12,119
the fact that his father recently died in the Sikh

585
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:14,400
religion and he's trying to find some consolation.

586
00:41:15,519 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 3: But I think, well, the first one is that the

587
00:41:18,039 --> 00:41:20,480
first thing I would say is that phrase is false.

588
00:41:20,679 --> 00:41:24,480
I mean, even if God can, you know, reach somebody

589
00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:28,079
on the deathbed in a miraculous, non normative way, that

590
00:41:28,159 --> 00:41:30,760
has nothing to do with their false religion being a

591
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,159
means of salvation. There are no false religions that are

592
00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:35,239
means of salvation, right.

593
00:41:35,639 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 25: But his I think the major point that he was

594
00:41:38,079 --> 00:41:41,400
driving was like, you so I also argue that, you know,

595
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,719
the toll house is just one of many orthodox views

596
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,960
on like what happens after death. But he he was

597
00:41:49,039 --> 00:41:50,960
stating that, you know, in the book, and I've read

598
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,760
the book myself, it's been a while, but he was

599
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,679
bringing up certain chapters that deal on how when after

600
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,079
the soul's depart departing, you are sort of given in

601
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,440
what would be seen as, for lack of better terms,

602
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,599
like a second chance to sort of repent and turn

603
00:42:05,679 --> 00:42:06,039
to Christ.

604
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 10: So maybe not.

605
00:42:07,119 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 25: He's saying that every religion leads to Christ, but that

606
00:42:10,639 --> 00:42:12,559
no matter what religion you are, you would have a

607
00:42:12,679 --> 00:42:14,360
second chance upon Well, I mean, we.

608
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,679
Speaker 3: Just don't know that for sure. And this is also

609
00:42:17,159 --> 00:42:19,679
I'm not blaming you for thosing you, but this this

610
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,239
is a really odd entry way into Orthodoxy. Yeah, I

611
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,000
mean people need to get grounded in the scriptures and

612
00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:32,159
in Katechisis and not come into Orthodoxy through toll houses.

613
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,800
That's like the worst probably a way to come at Orthoxy.

614
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 25: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's I mean, I plowed him for

615
00:42:38,079 --> 00:42:41,079
reading Father's There from Rose, but I don't think that

616
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:42,320
the soul after death was.

617
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 1: Like the best.

618
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 3: No, he should have started with like God's Revelation to

619
00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:48,280
human heart or you know, Nihilism or something like that,

620
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:53,280
or Orthodox survival of course, maybe, but now I would

621
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,400
say he should probably you know, read something like Pomazansky's

622
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,800
Orthodox theology and get a grounding in the theology before

623
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:03,840
jumping to the really speculative matters. It's like it's the

624
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,800
same thing as like when people come into Christianity or

625
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,920
religion through end times gibberish. It just creates all these

626
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,920
problems because it's you know, it's sexy and sensational to

627
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,840
talk about Antichrist and the end times and when no,

628
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,320
you need to come into it through uh, starting with

629
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,360
the doction of Trinity and Christology and all the stuff

630
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,840
that Katechiss teaches.

631
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 1: Right, And what was the author of that book on

632
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,320
orthodox theology.

633
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 3: That you just Mentionedzsky Orthodox Dogmatics.

634
00:43:32,559 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 25: Pomazansky, Orthodox Dogmatics.

635
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: Sorry, thank you, I'll recommend them. That's all I got.

636
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:37,599
I appreciate you.

637
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. A lot of times what happens is that people

638
00:43:49,039 --> 00:43:52,559
get kind of also do they want shortcuts, and so

639
00:43:52,679 --> 00:43:55,400
they want to like, oh, I want to go ahead

640
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,840
and just sign up now I want to be catechized

641
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,360
and Chris made it or baptized now, I want it all.

642
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:00,599
Speaker 10: Now.

643
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,079
Speaker 3: You need to take your time. You need to learn

644
00:44:03,159 --> 00:44:05,440
all of these things, and you need to attend all

645
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,960
the classes and work through the basics instead of trying

646
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:14,000
to jump into these like you know, extremely speculative, mystical,

647
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,519
difficult doctrines. Right, we don't come into Orthodoxy the philocalia,

648
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,880
so you want, you got to start with stuff like

649
00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:26,639
orthodox dogmatic Theology by Palmazanski, which is what's used most

650
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,280
often in churches all over the place to catechize you.

651
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't blame him.

652
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 25: I think he was coming into like he's turning towards

653
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,679
Orthodoxy to see if he can have an answer to.

654
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:43,079
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I know, but I mean I recommend that

655
00:44:43,119 --> 00:44:44,960
book to him that I appreciate. That's all the questions

656
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:45,199
I had.

657
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,679
Speaker 3: No, those are good questions. We also can't let you know,

658
00:44:48,039 --> 00:44:51,000
I'm not saying this is his fault, but you know,

659
00:44:51,039 --> 00:44:52,880
we can't let the things that we want to be

660
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,039
the case dictate our religious choices. That's really the problem

661
00:44:57,519 --> 00:45:03,760
everywhere because everybody, I mean, if you love truth, you

662
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:10,119
gotta basically submit everything to what's true. And most people

663
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,480
who are on their way to destruction, the reason they're

664
00:45:15,519 --> 00:45:17,119
on their way to destruction is that they love and

665
00:45:17,199 --> 00:45:20,079
believe lies. And they would rather love and believe lies

666
00:45:22,039 --> 00:45:28,000
for whatever reasons, pride, simplicity, ease, comfort, believing they're going

667
00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:31,519
to be on the winning team, whatever. But you know,

668
00:45:31,559 --> 00:45:36,280
a broads that path that leads to destruction. So the

669
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,880
way out of that is that we all got to

670
00:45:41,079 --> 00:45:44,719
be submitting to what's true. That means that we might

671
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:50,199
have something wrong and I can't choose my religion based

672
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,320
on the things that I want to be the case.

673
00:45:54,639 --> 00:45:58,119
That's just another echo of the fall. You will be

674
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,760
your own God deciding what's true and false. Right, we can't.

675
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:14,719
We can't operate that way. The Saraceni. The Saraceni.

676
00:46:16,519 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 26: Okay, I just have a quick question about circular reasoning.

677
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,039
Speaker 27: Is it Is it true?

678
00:46:22,039 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 10: I'm kind of new that the whole logic and philosophy thing.

679
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: Is it true that there is circular reasoning that is

680
00:46:27,559 --> 00:46:28,480
not fallacious?

681
00:46:29,639 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 10: Yeah?

682
00:46:30,039 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 3: Maybe the using the term circular is inappropriate in that

683
00:46:33,599 --> 00:46:37,960
case because it would be recursive or a different order

684
00:46:38,039 --> 00:46:41,440
of reasoning. And that's because of the nature of the

685
00:46:41,519 --> 00:46:44,760
thing in question. So, for example, if we use an

686
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:50,440
analogy to like linguistic philosophy, if we're inquiring into the

687
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:57,519
status and meaning of words themselves and how do words mean? Well,

688
00:46:57,679 --> 00:46:59,159
aren't we going to have to use words?

689
00:46:59,679 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: Oh?

690
00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 3: Well, I guess you're being circular because you're using the

691
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,639
thing in question. Yeah, but it's impossible by the necessity

692
00:47:06,679 --> 00:47:10,159
of the thing in question, namely words themselves. It's impossible

693
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,159
not to utilize words to discuss words and how words mean.

694
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:18,159
So at the same time, in logic, if I raise

695
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,159
the bar and I'm not doing first order logic or

696
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,320
reasoning about the mundane things of the world, if I

697
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,840
start asking questions about logic itself, I still cannot avoid

698
00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:33,440
using logic. I will be using logic in meta logic.

699
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,960
Does that mean that it's invalid because I'm using the

700
00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:40,079
thing in question. No, it's unavoidable, and so in that

701
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,760
case it's recursive or it refers back. It's self referencing.

702
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,400
And maybe self referential is a better term than circular,

703
00:47:49,519 --> 00:47:53,079
because people think that there's no such thing as meta

704
00:47:53,199 --> 00:47:56,440
logic or reasoning at that level, because they assume that

705
00:47:56,559 --> 00:47:59,639
when you talk about the fallacy of circular reasoning, that

706
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,280
this is some sort of in all situations and in

707
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,280
all cases. Another example might be something like, normally, it

708
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:12,960
is a fallacy to reason in a in a at

709
00:48:13,039 --> 00:48:16,880
hominem way against the man. But what if what's in

710
00:48:17,039 --> 00:48:21,679
question is whether the man is moral. Well, obviously I

711
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,519
have to if the man is not moral, discuss the

712
00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:27,320
fact that he is immoral. Who I guess you're using,

713
00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:31,400
you're at hominem. It's not at hominem in that unique case,

714
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,719
because the question at hand is whether in fact he's moral.

715
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,840
So you see how there's sometimes exceptions to the rule.

716
00:48:39,039 --> 00:48:42,199
And in the case of circular quote unquote reasoning, the

717
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,079
exception here is when the question is about reasoning and

718
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:50,119
logic itself considered in itself, how does it work? How

719
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,920
is logic logical? That's a meta question, got it?

720
00:48:55,079 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 1: I appreciate it, man, Thank you, great question.

721
00:48:59,199 --> 00:49:04,679
Speaker 3: Hopefully that address is this endless, never ending atheist retort

722
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,280
which they can never seem to figure out. Our carry

723
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:22,119
got a ummute an hour? Carry? Do you want to talk?

724
00:49:22,199 --> 00:49:22,840
Gets to ummute?

725
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 16: Sorry, I was backing in a trailer. I'm at work

726
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:29,039
right now.

727
00:49:29,119 --> 00:49:32,159
Speaker 3: But oh he's backing it up, baby, backing up, backing

728
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:33,039
up and back it up.

729
00:49:35,639 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 28: Yeah.

730
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,639
Speaker 16: So I had a quick question. I'm an idiot, okay, Uh,

731
00:49:39,079 --> 00:49:40,920
but I was wondering if you could just help me

732
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:42,639
out real quick. I'm a kind of human.

733
00:49:42,679 --> 00:49:47,039
Speaker 29: But I was basically bating somebody and uh, they got

734
00:49:47,199 --> 00:49:48,800
to a point I was making.

735
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 16: I was about to bay and I was like, uh,

736
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,079
you know, we're having an argument or whatever, and it

737
00:49:53,119 --> 00:49:56,039
got to a point where they said that, well, don't

738
00:49:56,079 --> 00:49:58,039
you know that all opinions are subjective?

739
00:49:58,079 --> 00:49:59,639
Speaker 10: And I'm like that, I use.

740
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,159
Speaker 16: I listen to you a lot, so I use. But

741
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,239
you say, you know that you can't say that all

742
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,039
opinions are objective.

743
00:50:06,119 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: You're using a.

744
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 16: Universal to say that there are no universals.

745
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 1: And the thing is, I was thinking.

746
00:50:13,559 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 16: About it because I was thinking at one point like like,

747
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:24,719
if there's like, let's say, uh, somebody sad, that wouldn't

748
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,639
that be like subjective that they're sad? Can there like

749
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,559
is there a possibility somebody can be objectively sad or

750
00:50:31,599 --> 00:50:34,039
somebody can be objective.

751
00:50:33,599 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 6: In some way?

752
00:50:35,159 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: Well, I think this is just a we would just

753
00:50:37,039 --> 00:50:43,199
make a distinction between the subjective experience of feeling sadness

754
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,920
and being in a state of sadness. And at the

755
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,679
same time, it is also objectively the case that you

756
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:51,000
are sad, So it's both.

757
00:50:54,159 --> 00:50:59,159
Speaker 16: So something can be subjectively or objectively subjective.

758
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 3: Well, well, just because something is subjective doesn't mean that

759
00:51:03,039 --> 00:51:07,239
it's not objective. That's what your friend is talking about

760
00:51:07,519 --> 00:51:11,480
is what's called subjectivism, And that's a different thing. Subjectivism

761
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,000
or relativism is the idea that all beliefs, all propositions,

762
00:51:16,159 --> 00:51:20,639
all truths are purely relative and purely subjective. That's a

763
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,159
different thing from am I having a subjective experience?

764
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, that's all I wanted to know.

765
00:51:29,119 --> 00:51:31,679
Speaker 16: That's a quick distinction is like, can I read more

766
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,559
about that? And like in Aristotle's works? Does he talk

767
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:36,400
a lot more about that?

768
00:51:36,599 --> 00:51:37,119
Speaker 1: Is there like a.

769
00:51:38,679 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 3: No Aristotle? I mean, this is more of a modern

770
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,639
philosophical type of discussion. I don't think Aristotle really thought

771
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,400
in those those ways. I mean, he had to debate

772
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,880
with sophists certainly in his day. But and the closest

773
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,440
thing to relativism in the days of the ancient Greeks

774
00:51:52,639 --> 00:51:55,719
were the sophists. But I think a better book would

775
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,960
be something like W. J. Wood's book on Epistemology. You know,

776
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:03,440
you'll find him discussing in that book all those kind

777
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,079
of basic epistemic issues. So this is more of a

778
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:13,320
modern idea of a skeptical you know, relativistic skepticism or something.

779
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 10: Very much.

780
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it's a good question. Uh, welcome everybody. We

781
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,440
got glad to see you guys. Here, We've got three

782
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,039
people in line, and we've got a cool seven hundred.

783
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,880
We got the seven hundred club over here. I'm like Pat,

784
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,199
my boy, Pat Robertson over.

785
00:52:34,119 --> 00:52:39,119
Speaker 30: Here, puts your hands on the screen and gonna heal

786
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,719
gout out there in the name of Jesus. Somebody's got

787
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,239
gout out there, and all of that gout money needs

788
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,199
to go to the Nation of Israel.

789
00:52:49,599 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 3: My little seven hundred club plug there. What's up Xander

790
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:58,000
Anton Xander Levy or are we talking about Xander from

791
00:52:58,079 --> 00:52:59,800
Buffy the Vampires Layer?

792
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:02,639
Speaker 10: What's up? Jay Unit? How?

793
00:53:02,679 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 31: Why are you?

794
00:53:03,079 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 10: Brother? So? I have one question about reincarnation.

795
00:53:08,079 --> 00:53:10,159
Speaker 31: So I've been talking with some friends and I think

796
00:53:10,199 --> 00:53:15,719
this is like it comes from Gnosticism. So they make

797
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:21,840
compelling cases for like early Christianity and like even Judaism,

798
00:53:22,039 --> 00:53:25,199
like that they believed in reincarnation, that even maybe Jesus

799
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:26,519
believed in reincarnation.

800
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 10: It's sort of encoded in the Bible, like.

801
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 31: For instance, I think it was say John the Baptist,

802
00:53:32,159 --> 00:53:35,920
was he talks about like perhaps being the So, first.

803
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,119
Speaker 3: Of all, that's addressed, how bad that argument is?

804
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 10: No, the fact that which if you don't want, I'll

805
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:43,760
just like to form the question and be done.

806
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 31: So it could you make like what is the best

807
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,960
argument for like reincarnation being something that might be true,

808
00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:53,840
or that there might be there there or is.

809
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 3: There not or not one, no, there is. It's a

810
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,880
silly position. And when they go to stuff to prove,

811
00:54:00,199 --> 00:54:03,599
they'll say stuff like John the Baptist came in the

812
00:54:03,639 --> 00:54:07,960
spirit power of Elijah. All that means is typeologically he

813
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,960
was of the same type of spirit in terms of

814
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:16,760
being an ascetic prophet like Elijah was. It doesn't mean

815
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,639
that he's the reincarnation of Elijah. So this comes out

816
00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:23,239
of Rabbinic traditions and even Rabbinic traditions and Cabalistic traditions

817
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,800
that adopted this. They got it from Plato because so

818
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,400
much of the Kabalistic tradition the more you get into it,

819
00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:35,519
they're influenced by, yes, in part elements of the chariot

820
00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:40,920
angel stuff going on in Ezekiel, But more so Kabbalism

821
00:54:41,119 --> 00:54:45,760
is influenced by gnosticism and neoplatonism very clearly, and the

822
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,400
scholarship in modernity on that is pretty much unanimous across

823
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,480
the board. We just lectured through the five hundred page

824
00:54:52,039 --> 00:54:55,360
Cambridge Companion to Esoterism and every chapter in that that

825
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,960
dealt with Kabbalism and medieval Kabala, Christian Kabbala quote unquote

826
00:55:00,559 --> 00:55:04,159
says all the same stuff I just said. So it's

827
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:07,840
not anywhere in the Bible that there's any ridiculous idea

828
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:13,280
of reincarnation. It's a completely pagan view, and most likely

829
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,639
the Jews were influenced again through perhaps even all the

830
00:55:16,679 --> 00:55:22,360
way back to Babylon with Babylonian Talmud influence. But other

831
00:55:22,519 --> 00:55:26,519
than the misinterpretation of the text, which is about the

832
00:55:26,639 --> 00:55:30,679
Messianic era being initiated, that John the Baptist is a

833
00:55:32,079 --> 00:55:37,719
type of prophet just like Elijah and Elishah. That has

834
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:39,800
to do with the fulfillment in minor Prophets, where it's

835
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,800
said that before the great coming of the Day of

836
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:47,840
the Lord, my prophet Elijah or my prophet Elijah will come.

837
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,639
So Jesus is saying that that Messianic prophecy in the

838
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:57,039
minor Prophets is fulfilled in John the Baptist. Nothing to

839
00:55:57,159 --> 00:56:01,599
do with reincarnation. That's completely stupid anyway, I'm not knocking you.

840
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:06,159
I'm just saying that that's perfect. Uh, when you understand,

841
00:56:06,519 --> 00:56:09,400
like the Messianic fulfillment. It's obvious. That's that's not talking

842
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:15,800
about it's it's also a partial preterist proof because it

843
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,320
shows that these Old Testament predictions about the last days,

844
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,480
the last days are inaugurated when the Messiah came the

845
00:56:24,559 --> 00:56:29,440
first time. The esketon is now it invaded. Now, that's

846
00:56:29,519 --> 00:56:32,880
why the heavenly liturgy, of which the Temple was a type,

847
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:39,039
is here in reality in the divine liturgy. That's a

848
00:56:39,079 --> 00:56:40,719
great question. Okay, what's okay?

849
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: Hello, what's up?

850
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:49,559
Speaker 10: Man?

851
00:56:50,519 --> 00:56:52,639
Speaker 27: Yeah, so I'm gonna acquire in the East, and I

852
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:58,039
had a question regarding their relationship oppositions or some of

853
00:56:58,079 --> 00:57:01,480
the sessions with a few Muslims and like being able

854
00:57:01,519 --> 00:57:06,119
to premise that a saty is a divine companty always

855
00:57:06,159 --> 00:57:09,199
like it is intrinsic to like divine essms.

856
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's called the Eunomian premise. And there is no

857
00:57:12,039 --> 00:57:14,079
way to approve or demonstrate that. If you watch the

858
00:57:14,159 --> 00:57:16,679
debate between doctor bo Branson and Jake, the whole debate

859
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,880
is over the Unomian premise, and the whole debate ends

860
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:24,320
up being doctor Branson showing through logic to Jake that

861
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,679
there is no demonstration of that. Plus it's a fallacy

862
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,559
because it's the same mistake of saying that all meat

863
00:57:32,599 --> 00:57:35,400
eaters or carnivores, but not all carnivores are meat eaters. So,

864
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:37,159
in other words, the fact that one member of a

865
00:57:37,239 --> 00:57:41,239
class possesses a saiety, it doesn't follow that every member

866
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,639
of a class must possess that to be in that class.

867
00:57:44,159 --> 00:57:46,400
So no, if, in fact, if a sayety is the

868
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,840
thing that picks out the father, which is the orthodox position,

869
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:51,840
he's the one that is the self existent one, the

870
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:56,000
uncaused cause, and so forth, then it's a personal hypostatic property.

871
00:57:56,199 --> 00:57:58,440
It's not the property that picks out divinity proper.

872
00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 27: And that doesn't make a few idea that the both

873
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,599
called eco booths them being equal is just in regards

874
00:58:05,639 --> 00:58:06,719
to the divinity, right.

875
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,599
Speaker 3: Right, Well, Jesus says, for example in John five, all

876
00:58:12,719 --> 00:58:15,960
the works that the father does, I do. Likewise, all

877
00:58:16,239 --> 00:58:18,119
all that the father has, he is given to the son.

878
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,559
Right So, in other words, the father conveys to the

879
00:58:20,639 --> 00:58:25,280
son the same nature. But to be the self existent, uncaused,

880
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,440
unoriginate one is the personal property of the father. It

881
00:58:28,559 --> 00:58:30,119
is not the property of the divine essence.

882
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:32,519
Speaker 1: Okay, So just to picking back with your plan.

883
00:58:32,679 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 27: So based on the argument, the Orthodox proposes and the

884
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,239
we Wisms refeat it. In a sense, if to hold

885
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:42,880
a position deal hold, then you could also argue that

886
00:58:43,679 --> 00:58:47,880
our last glory isn't divine because that divine actually doesn't.

887
00:58:47,679 --> 00:58:50,119
Speaker 3: Have a safe here exactly. Yeah. In fact, in that debate,

888
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:54,360
doctor Branson argues against Jake precisely that point that do

889
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,639
each of the each of all his attributes possessed society

890
00:58:58,159 --> 00:59:04,159
or in incompass and do they all come possibly possess that?

891
00:59:04,239 --> 00:59:06,880
In answer that Jake gives us no, and so Jake

892
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:08,000
refutes his own position.

893
00:59:08,639 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 10: Yeah.

894
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 27: So based on argument, anything apart from a law cannot

895
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:13,280
be divine as they do not have a CT. And

896
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,800
that doesn't even make sense, right, Okay, So just what

897
00:59:17,159 --> 00:59:19,119
I'm gonna Shay, I don't know if you know, John

898
00:59:19,199 --> 00:59:22,519
five twenty six off your head, but is Delfa has

899
00:59:22,599 --> 00:59:26,079
life within himself and then the Father also gives me

900
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:27,199
life within myself.

901
00:59:27,599 --> 00:59:29,599
Speaker 1: So what does that actually mean?

902
00:59:29,639 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 27: Because uh, a saty kind of can can and a

903
00:59:33,039 --> 00:59:35,679
CT be passed onto another person or no.

904
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,199
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying is that in the Orthodox position

905
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:45,000
of trends arent theology, a sayety means self existing, uncaused, uh,

906
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,559
you know, unoriginate. Those are all what we call hyposthetic

907
00:59:49,679 --> 00:59:52,480
properties that pick out the person of the Father. So

908
00:59:52,719 --> 00:59:55,679
it's unique to the person of the Father. It's not

909
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,280
a property of the divine nature itself. And so when

910
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:03,239
Jesus says that the Father gives him life, this is

911
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:08,159
a just simply regurd This is simply a restatement of

912
01:00:08,239 --> 01:00:11,599
what we call the eternal generation doctrine. So Jesus is

913
01:00:11,679 --> 01:00:14,360
just like this is what Nicia says, right. Nicia says

914
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:18,000
that the Father eternally generates a son of his nature,

915
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:23,800
which possesses the divine essence. Right, but the father's personal

916
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,719
property of being the uncaused cause or of being assay

917
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:32,519
is not transferable, just like the property the personal property

918
01:00:32,559 --> 01:00:35,800
of being the son is not transferable. Jesus doesn't make

919
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:39,360
the Spirit his grandson or another. The Spirit is not

920
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:45,000
Jesus's son, right because hypostatic properties are not transferable. But

921
01:00:45,199 --> 01:00:49,360
anything that is common is transferable. And thus Jesus gets

922
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,559
all of the same common properties that the Father has

923
01:00:52,639 --> 01:00:54,519
in terms of nature. So this is why you have

924
01:00:54,599 --> 01:00:57,159
to distinguish nature in person the trinity. So all of

925
01:00:57,199 --> 01:01:00,719
the works, all the powers, all the actual buttes that

926
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,519
are proper to the divine nature Jesus gets from the Father.

927
01:01:04,639 --> 01:01:05,960
They're all communicated to him.

928
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:08,639
Speaker 1: So there's nothing that Father can do that Christ con.

929
01:01:08,599 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 3: Basically, except the Cappadocians say to be the cause.

930
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:16,679
Speaker 27: Okay, okay, and that's a hypothetic propacy, not something Okay.

931
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Cappuitotions are adamant that. This is why we

932
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,639
don't believe in the philioquay. Uh, everything that the Father

933
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,800
has the son has except for being cause.

934
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:29,679
Speaker 27: Yeah, and then the son doesn't have a and the

935
01:01:29,719 --> 01:01:31,480
Father doesn't have a human nature of either.

936
01:01:31,599 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 1: So so do you go to do you some overlooks

937
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,199
onto a relative identity?

938
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:39,079
Speaker 3: Well, this is a little more of a tricky area

939
01:01:39,719 --> 01:01:44,719
because we could say that in a sense, there are

940
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:48,760
relations and you can identify the persons in a really

941
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,559
in a relations way. But it's as Loski says, it's

942
01:01:52,639 --> 01:01:56,239
relations of origin, it is not relations of opposition. So

943
01:01:57,159 --> 01:02:03,719
I absolutely recommend reading the Losky paper. It's called Procession

944
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,880
of the Holy Spirit and Orthodox Trinitarian theology. Let me

945
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:13,079
pull it up, okay, because it specifically addresses the tonistic

946
01:02:14,199 --> 01:02:17,960
faulty theology of relations of opposition, and so you don't

947
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,239
even have to get three, four or five pages into

948
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:25,719
this famous essay before Losky is refuting the tonistic idea.

949
01:02:26,679 --> 01:02:29,679
Speaker 27: So obviously, as an Orthodox you obviously don't hold it

950
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:34,239
to mystic view as well. You still hot events simplicity absolutely.

951
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,519
Speaker 3: In fact, we would argue that the Orthodox position is

952
01:02:38,599 --> 01:02:41,360
the one that upholds divine simplicity and the Roman Catholic

953
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,760
position that actually compromises and severs it.

954
01:02:46,079 --> 01:02:48,719
Speaker 27: Okay, Oh, and I've had a conversation with you, and

955
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,320
you use this tone to describe that the distinction between

956
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:54,960
the relations in the in the Godhead and the distinction

957
01:02:55,079 --> 01:02:57,519
between the Good Head and humanity. I think it was

958
01:02:57,639 --> 01:02:59,920
I told you, like I'll come in the actual way,

959
01:03:00,199 --> 01:03:06,119
use like his basically to explain how how like how

960
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,480
even though Jesus is so borted into the Father in

961
01:03:08,599 --> 01:03:11,559
terms of relations, used to have sovereignty over all of creation,

962
01:03:11,719 --> 01:03:17,039
and then like, I think it Hasnarian economy about well.

963
01:03:17,119 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 3: So, so this is just in Orthodox theology. One of

964
01:03:20,039 --> 01:03:22,559
the first things we would say about how we go

965
01:03:22,719 --> 01:03:26,800
about naming God is that there's two different ways of

966
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:31,519
naming God. The first is God in the intertrinitarian life. Okay,

967
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:36,039
that's different than it's not totally unrelated, but it's in

968
01:03:36,199 --> 01:03:39,360
ways distinct from how we relate or name God in

969
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,079
terms of his relations to creation. So this is economia

970
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,280
versus the trinity or theology proper.

971
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:47,119
Speaker 8: Uh.

972
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 3: And so, for example, Maximus talks about this in the

973
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,239
first five page of the two Inner Chapters, where he says,

974
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,559
can we call God actus purists or first cause? He

975
01:03:56,639 --> 01:03:59,280
says yes, in one way, we can't. In another way

976
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,320
we cannot. How is it, well? The way that we

977
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,599
can call God first cause is in relation to creatures.

978
01:04:06,159 --> 01:04:08,079
In that sense, God is the first cause of the

979
01:04:08,159 --> 01:04:10,800
created order in the creative world. Sure, But can we

980
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,679
call God in himself in the intertrinitarian life, pure act

981
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:18,400
or first cause? Absolutely not, because it would be totally heterodox.

982
01:04:18,719 --> 01:04:22,960
It would reduce God to the Aristotilian diad and lead

983
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,840
to all kinds of stupid heresies. So that's why act

984
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,760
as purist is both true and false depending upon how

985
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,079
you name God. I mean, maximuspects it very clear in

986
01:04:31,119 --> 01:04:34,079
those first five pages. Roman Catholics don't even pay attention

987
01:04:34,119 --> 01:04:37,079
to this. They just act like they have no idea

988
01:04:37,119 --> 01:04:38,920
what we're talking about Does that make sense? Is that

989
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:39,519
what we're talking about?

990
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:40,079
Speaker 7: Yeah?

991
01:04:40,159 --> 01:04:40,639
Speaker 32: Yeah, yeah.

992
01:04:41,519 --> 01:04:45,159
Speaker 27: And last question, this last question, So in regards to

993
01:04:45,239 --> 01:04:48,199
the safety, of course, Jesus Christ is in the uncos cause,

994
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:53,280
but it is crystal and necessary necessary existence by predication of.

995
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: The follow because I'm not sure. I'm not sure, but

996
01:04:57,079 --> 01:04:57,639
oh I did that.

997
01:04:58,239 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 27: Goodness has to be extualized and love has to be reciprocated.

998
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:04,960
That's why the sun exists, because the love is specificated

999
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:05,760
as someone in the sun.

1000
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:06,519
Speaker 1: Back to the Fowell.

1001
01:05:06,719 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 27: So even though Christ doesn't possess a saty, he can

1002
01:05:10,519 --> 01:05:14,239
still be described as a necessary existence, right.

1003
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well this is again precisely in the way that

1004
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:22,559
I just described. When, for example, I think it's Oration

1005
01:05:22,679 --> 01:05:25,159
twenty nine Nazi Azis says that you can say that

1006
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:30,760
the Sun is unoriginal when he's contrasted to creatures. You

1007
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:34,519
can call God actors purists, in contrast to creatures. You

1008
01:05:34,599 --> 01:05:38,280
can call the trinity the monarchy of creation. In contrast

1009
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:42,039
to creatures. That is distinct from how we name and

1010
01:05:42,119 --> 01:05:45,599
predicate in the intertrinitarian life. And all the idiots on

1011
01:05:45,599 --> 01:05:48,400
the internet confuse these two all the time and make

1012
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,719
the stupid mistake because they'll think that the entire Trinity,

1013
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:55,280
in its intertrinitarian life is the monarch is the false

1014
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:58,320
first cause. Okay, so you're saying that the sun is

1015
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:01,480
the first cause in the trinity. Obviously not, so you

1016
01:06:01,599 --> 01:06:06,159
cannot name the intertrinitarian life the same equivalent way that

1017
01:06:06,239 --> 01:06:07,880
you name God in contrasted creatures.

1018
01:06:08,519 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 27: So basically the term So yeah, because well before I

1019
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:14,119
am credit into eating over those, I always used to

1020
01:06:14,199 --> 01:06:17,239
hold a notion that God cannot really be a dualistic term.

1021
01:06:17,519 --> 01:06:20,159
But it actually can be because every every form my

1022
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:22,480
language can be because God isn't just used for the

1023
01:06:22,559 --> 01:06:23,239
Father with the Son.

1024
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:24,519
Speaker 1: God is used multiple times and.

1025
01:06:24,679 --> 01:06:27,239
Speaker 3: Right, so let's look about unorriginal in the trinity? Is

1026
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,840
the son and original? Absolutely not, that's a heresy. The

1027
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:35,239
Son is original, he originates from the Father. But can

1028
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:38,159
you call the son in contrast to the created order

1029
01:06:38,199 --> 01:06:38,719
and originate?

1030
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,519
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, that makes sense.

1031
01:06:42,199 --> 01:06:44,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's in It's in the It's in Gregor

1032
01:06:44,639 --> 01:06:46,960
Nazius Nazianza's orations. He says everything.

1033
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 27: Okay, so this is I actually have to go acredible

1034
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:54,320
me over what would you recommend to get more well

1035
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:57,280
versed in this is theology apart from the Bible, of course.

1036
01:06:58,000 --> 01:06:58,119
Speaker 22: Uh.

1037
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 3: Well, I would start with reading something like the theological

1038
01:07:02,079 --> 01:07:05,400
Orations of Gregory Nazianzus. Of course, the first the thought

1039
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:07,880
what are called the five are really important, but there's many,

1040
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:10,760
many more. Those are good. I would read On the

1041
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:14,480
Incarnation by Saint Athanasius. I would read, Uh, Basil against

1042
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:18,480
You Unomius Basil and Holy Spirit. I would read uh,

1043
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:22,360
something like Loski's Mystical Theology Eastern Church. I would read

1044
01:07:22,639 --> 01:07:26,960
Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Pomazanski. You know, I would get

1045
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:29,000
grounded in those kind of works first, and I would

1046
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:32,719
read something like Visiting Theology by my Endorff. I would

1047
01:07:32,719 --> 01:07:35,280
read the other Loskiy books which are really good, like uh,

1048
01:07:35,639 --> 01:07:39,719
a Vision of God or any any of the Lowsky

1049
01:07:39,719 --> 01:07:41,599
books are good. And then I would branch out into

1050
01:07:41,719 --> 01:07:44,800
like maybe Stunny Lloyd's Orthodox Dogmatics something like that.

1051
01:07:45,599 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 27: Okay, thank you if you're so off by the time,

1052
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:49,480
I'm back all questions again, because I have a questions,

1053
01:07:49,519 --> 01:07:50,000
but I have to go.

1054
01:07:50,119 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time.

1055
01:07:51,079 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, those are great questions. I appreciate. Thank you so much. Kay,

1056
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:57,199
really good questions. Uh, and I love seeing seeing that

1057
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:02,000
click with people, because so many people get caught up

1058
01:08:02,039 --> 01:08:07,280
in gotcha's and get confused. And you know, thank God,

1059
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:10,960
in the last I don't know, like the last couple

1060
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:15,280
of weeks, I've had multiple tomiss and Catholics and people

1061
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:18,079
that were confused over these topics of relations of opposition

1062
01:08:18,239 --> 01:08:21,399
or whatever actually go and read the freaking Losky paper

1063
01:08:22,159 --> 01:08:26,680
and understand what's being said, and it's beginning to click.

1064
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:29,279
So I'm glad to see that confused.

1065
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:30,359
Speaker 1: What's up?

1066
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:30,600
Speaker 9: Man?

1067
01:08:35,279 --> 01:08:35,399
Speaker 8: Hey?

1068
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 1: Jay?

1069
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,319
Speaker 33: So my question is this, So a lot of the

1070
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:42,720
debates have been in the realm of the theological and

1071
01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:46,319
in talking to other Catholics who are seeing the sense

1072
01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:49,760
that prevails it's sort of a weight and something's going

1073
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,359
to change there and sort all this stuff out, and

1074
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:55,640
they don't and or they also lack a sense of

1075
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:59,079
that theological understand where you can really interface with them.

1076
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:03,479
Aside from something like that, What are the other approaches

1077
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:08,199
or other ways to talk to an individual about why

1078
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:11,920
Orthodoxy is correct compared to say Catholicism.

1079
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 3: Well, I think if you if you look at somebody

1080
01:09:17,119 --> 01:09:21,119
like Pago, I mean, he has a very popular approach

1081
01:09:21,199 --> 01:09:24,000
that's different than the polemical approach of what we do.

1082
01:09:24,239 --> 01:09:27,760
So you could look at something like the arts. You know,

1083
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:32,640
I think probably the degradation in the Western Liturgical basically

1084
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:36,800
the loss of the Western Liturgical tradition, the papacy not

1085
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:40,600
wanting to continue and foster the Latin Mass and their heritage.

1086
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:45,920
Those are are probably good inroads with Catholics who you know,

1087
01:09:46,079 --> 01:09:49,880
don't really care about apologetics or you know, logical issues

1088
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:53,840
or whatever. The arts aesthetics, that's another a key angle,

1089
01:09:54,119 --> 01:09:58,359
is what I'm saying. I'm trying to think of other

1090
01:10:01,199 --> 01:10:04,279
A lot of people prefer you know, more pastoral issues

1091
01:10:04,399 --> 01:10:08,239
or questions and so or or practical maybe you know,

1092
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:12,159
male female issues. So Father Moses a channel might be better,

1093
01:10:12,319 --> 01:10:14,319
a better inroad for people who are interested in those

1094
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:19,720
practical types of topics, or Father Trinham's channel for dealing

1095
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:22,880
with a lot more of those practical questions. Those in

1096
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:26,479
the way they approach is probably you know what you're

1097
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:34,840
looking for. Thanks, Yeah, yeah, not everybody finds debate and

1098
01:10:35,079 --> 01:10:37,760
you know, logic and all that, which is fine. You know,

1099
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:41,840
everybody we all have different gifts, we have different skill sets,

1100
01:10:44,079 --> 01:10:51,560
so everybody contributes in different ways. Light vendor. It's a

1101
01:10:52,199 --> 01:10:52,640
cool name.

1102
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:57,319
Speaker 1: Hello, can you hear me?

1103
01:10:58,880 --> 01:10:59,520
Speaker 10: How you doing? Jay?

1104
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 34: I got a quick question for you here, and forgive

1105
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:05,760
me if it's it's just like a shower thought from

1106
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:08,600
this morning. I'm an inquirer into Orthodoxy. I've been going

1107
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:10,520
to church off and on for about two years in

1108
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:13,239
New York and stuff like that all over the place, UH,

1109
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:17,359
in relation to the Trinity, and for that matter, any

1110
01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:20,159
created category like male, female, father, son, or.

1111
01:11:20,159 --> 01:11:27,800
Speaker 1: Even like you know legs or are you there?

1112
01:11:31,239 --> 01:11:32,680
Speaker 3: You got robot machine gun?

1113
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 1: Bro?

1114
01:11:33,079 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 3: We can't hear you? Are you there?

1115
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:38,560
Speaker 1: Sorry? Can you hear me?

1116
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:39,479
Speaker 21: I got a phone call right?

1117
01:11:46,319 --> 01:11:52,199
Speaker 3: Maybe call back in after your phone call? Anov we

1118
01:11:52,279 --> 01:11:53,840
got attacked by a I bought bro.

1119
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:57,520
Speaker 19: Hello, Hey, how you doing?

1120
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:02,680
Speaker 1: Jay? Nice talk to again? Actually piggingbacking off of two.

1121
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:08,560
Speaker 35: UH guests ago with Okay, I had the same question about.

1122
01:12:08,319 --> 01:12:10,119
Speaker 1: Asity, but you kind of answered it.

1123
01:12:11,279 --> 01:12:13,479
Speaker 35: I just want to say, like my framework as a

1124
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:18,079
Protestant was that a saity is an intrinsic property to God,

1125
01:12:18,239 --> 01:12:20,399
similar to the omnipotens.

1126
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 3: What I didn't hear you.

1127
01:12:24,359 --> 01:12:25,680
Speaker 1: I would say that before.

1128
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:30,119
Speaker 35: My problem was that I would assume a saity is

1129
01:12:30,119 --> 01:12:31,640
an intrinsic property to God.

1130
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:34,720
Speaker 3: Right, this is a Protestant idea. This is like Reformation

1131
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:36,399
era Calvin type stuff.

1132
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:40,119
Speaker 35: Yeah, so I'm trying to unlearn that a quick In

1133
01:12:40,199 --> 01:12:42,520
relation to the training, my question is how do we

1134
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:44,279
define what a person is?

1135
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:50,239
Speaker 3: The closest definition in the Orthodox Theologians that you read,

1136
01:12:50,359 --> 01:12:53,680
whether it's Cyril or whether it's Gregory Palamos, is that

1137
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:57,800
a person is a subject or an agent. And if

1138
01:12:57,840 --> 01:12:59,960
you get to the time of the Fifth Acumenical Council,

1139
01:13:00,119 --> 01:13:03,720
it actually dogmatizes and and it states explicitly that by

1140
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:08,680
hypostasis we mean pro siupon we mean person, subject or agent.

1141
01:13:11,239 --> 01:13:14,760
Speaker 35: Okay, so would that mean that they have mind with

1142
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:18,600
they have they share the divine mind and will in

1143
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:19,399
the trinity.

1144
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 3: Yes, And that's why there's That's why mind and will

1145
01:13:23,239 --> 01:13:27,359
are not properties of person, they're properties of nature, and

1146
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:29,359
so they're common to all three. So in other words,

1147
01:13:29,399 --> 01:13:32,960
it's the subject that has the mind and the will,

1148
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:37,479
just like in human persons. I am not as a

1149
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:41,439
person reduced to or equal to my mind or my will.

1150
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:45,800
My mind and my will are things that the subject

1151
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:48,520
or the person jay has as part of human nature.

1152
01:13:49,039 --> 01:13:52,720
That's why that's why there's a distinction between nature and person,

1153
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:56,279
both in the trinity, in Christ and in human anthropology.

1154
01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:00,720
Speaker 35: Okay, so I guess, and then that makes me ask

1155
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:03,760
me next thing is something I've heard in support of

1156
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,600
the philioque is the difference between Can you just say

1157
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:10,159
what the difference is between procession and begotten?

1158
01:14:12,159 --> 01:14:15,119
Speaker 3: Now, the Cappadocians points out that what the difference is

1159
01:14:15,239 --> 01:14:17,319
we do not know, but that there is a difference

1160
01:14:17,399 --> 01:14:17,720
we do know.

1161
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:18,880
Speaker 10: Okay.

1162
01:14:19,399 --> 01:14:22,560
Speaker 35: So if there's so, then for the Philiokua, it's like, okay,

1163
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:25,600
So if there's that, then what's the difference between the

1164
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,560
Sun and the Spirit if they're both being sourced in

1165
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:29,079
the Father?

1166
01:14:30,119 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 3: Well, the one is the Son, and his difference is

1167
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:35,520
that he became incarnate and revealed himself to us.

1168
01:14:36,159 --> 01:14:36,279
Speaker 27: Uh.

1169
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:39,279
Speaker 3: And so the way that we know that he's different

1170
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:42,319
is because he's revealed as the second person of the God,

1171
01:14:42,399 --> 01:14:46,319
had Jesus walking around talking teaching us all these things.

1172
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:49,520
He performs the role that's specific and unique to him

1173
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:52,880
in redemption, and the Holy Spirit is the third person,

1174
01:14:53,079 --> 01:14:56,039
the one that he sends who performs his unique roles

1175
01:14:56,079 --> 01:14:59,720
and actions and redemption. And so we don't need an

1176
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:03,239
egg exhaustive scholastic definition of what the words or what

1177
01:15:03,399 --> 01:15:07,399
the things. The difference is to know the person's because

1178
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:11,239
there's an element of mystery here that we're not revealed

1179
01:15:11,399 --> 01:15:15,199
what those things are. That's why the Cappadocians actually castigate

1180
01:15:15,319 --> 01:15:19,880
the Eunomians and the Arians for seeking to exhaustively understand

1181
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:24,039
and define the difference between procession and generation, which is

1182
01:15:24,079 --> 01:15:25,239
what leads to their heresy.

1183
01:15:26,119 --> 01:15:29,399
Speaker 35: Yeah, okay, And then my kind of I think is

1184
01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:32,960
my last. It's so something I've gotten a lot recently.

1185
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:35,960
I never really considered, and I think I know the answer,

1186
01:15:36,039 --> 01:15:38,199
but I want to hear your opinion is why three?

1187
01:15:38,359 --> 01:15:38,479
Speaker 10: Then?

1188
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:39,640
Speaker 1: Why three? Persons?

1189
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:42,359
Speaker 10: Like why not seven?

1190
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 1: Why not two? Like?

1191
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:46,640
Speaker 35: Why is there a reason that number three is significant?

1192
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:46,840
Speaker 1: Area?

1193
01:15:47,359 --> 01:15:49,199
Speaker 35: It's just I answer because that's where it.

1194
01:15:49,279 --> 01:15:51,800
Speaker 3: Is, you know, I mean, at the most basic level

1195
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:54,640
that that's just who God is. Yeah, right, So God

1196
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:58,479
doesn't answer to any higher standard of like because God

1197
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:01,319
has to fit into this that scheme. Right, It's just

1198
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:06,000
the way that God's God's self declaration, self revelation is

1199
01:16:06,119 --> 01:16:08,039
that that's who he is and that's always how he's been.

1200
01:16:09,119 --> 01:16:12,279
But there are places where the cave Dootionans and Maximus

1201
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:15,600
speculate as to why it might be three, and their

1202
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:20,039
answers are things like, well, if you think about ancient

1203
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:26,720
notions of numerics, the a pure monad has certain elements

1204
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:32,800
to it that are deficient, and the next move is

1205
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:36,560
a diad, but a diad still has certain deficiencies and

1206
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:40,399
opposition in it. And the next term is the triad,

1207
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:43,600
and the triad transcends the diad. And so it's the

1208
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,439
first of the numbers that is unique in that way

1209
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:54,279
that it transcends unity and a diead state and refers

1210
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:57,600
back to itself. Now, whether you find that a convincing argument,

1211
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,000
that's up to you. But that's the type of argument

1212
01:17:00,239 --> 01:17:04,119
that the Cappadocians and Maximus make from ancient to number theory.

1213
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:08,239
Speaker 35: Yeah, and so what do you say that, like, for example,

1214
01:17:08,279 --> 01:17:11,800
that when we talk about God being like creator, loving, merciful,

1215
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:13,920
what do you say he always had was like, was

1216
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:16,159
God always a creator even before creation?

1217
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:20,039
Speaker 3: This is a distinction between first and second actuality. This

1218
01:17:20,159 --> 01:17:23,560
is a distinction between a power and actualizing that power.

1219
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:27,000
So from all eternity, absolutely God had the power of creating.

1220
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:30,039
He did not always from all eternity create, because that

1221
01:17:30,079 --> 01:17:32,279
would mean there's an eternal world, and we would be

1222
01:17:32,319 --> 01:17:33,880
in the originist problem at that point.

1223
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 10: Okay, so how is that different? Though?

1224
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:38,640
Speaker 3: That, by the way, refutes tumism and shows that we

1225
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,079
don't believe that God is reduced to pure act because no,

1226
01:17:41,199 --> 01:17:44,359
Thomas would say that God possesses both first and second actuality,

1227
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:46,199
or that God possessed unrealized powers.

1228
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:50,359
Speaker 35: So a creatism I have of Islam is that God

1229
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:52,640
was not always loving in his creation.

1230
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:56,560
Speaker 3: To actually like, well, in Islam, God is never loving.

1231
01:17:57,720 --> 01:17:58,760
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but.

1232
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:02,359
Speaker 35: I'm saying, like, even like a purely one person, one

1233
01:18:02,479 --> 01:18:05,520
being God, at least with the Tranitarian model, you know,

1234
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:07,560
he love is eternal because the three.

1235
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:09,560
Speaker 3: Persons, right, yeah, I made We've made this argument too,

1236
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:13,119
I guess. Well, basically any unitarian system has this problem.

1237
01:18:13,239 --> 01:18:16,359
Speaker 35: Yet, So like, why can't the Muslims, for example, say

1238
01:18:16,399 --> 01:18:19,119
that God always had a potential to love? That's what

1239
01:18:19,279 --> 01:18:21,560
and then like the same argument for you with the creator,

1240
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,720
God always had the potential to love. Therefore, it works

1241
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:27,039
out that you don't need a Tranterian model for God

1242
01:18:27,119 --> 01:18:28,159
to always be loving.

1243
01:18:29,399 --> 01:18:33,199
Speaker 3: Well, because the they would then be positing first and

1244
01:18:33,319 --> 01:18:37,399
second actuality or potential or powers in God that aren't actualized,

1245
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:40,319
which I'm not sure that Muslims even go into that

1246
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:42,000
because every time I bring this up, this is what

1247
01:18:42,039 --> 01:18:43,600
I brought up in the asra Rahid debate, and he

1248
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:46,479
never understood what I was asking. So if they want

1249
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,000
to deny this, would this would at that point I

1250
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:51,600
would turn the I would turn the Tomas dilemma on

1251
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:54,359
them and be like, well, so do you believe that God,

1252
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:58,319
that Allah has unrealized powers and that so if he,

1253
01:18:58,479 --> 01:19:01,920
if he has unrealized powers, then he would undergo some

1254
01:19:02,119 --> 01:19:06,880
kind of change by having not created to then creating, right,

1255
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:10,880
because they have a very similar kind of scheme about

1256
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:14,920
what's perfection in a law as Roman Catholics and Thomas

1257
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:18,319
do about the metaphysics of perfection. So that's what I

1258
01:19:18,399 --> 01:19:20,600
was doing in Azrorashi debate because because I was trying

1259
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:23,720
to get him to admit that if if Allah is perfect,

1260
01:19:24,399 --> 01:19:28,560
then then how is he perfect if he's not even

1261
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:30,560
created yet? Does that make sense?

1262
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:34,119
Speaker 35: Yeah, But so they can't use the same potential argument

1263
01:19:34,239 --> 01:19:34,960
that we would use.

1264
01:19:35,039 --> 01:19:37,560
Speaker 3: Now, well, they would have to admit like essen senter distinction,

1265
01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:38,359
stuff like that.

1266
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:41,600
Speaker 35: Okay, okay, well that makes well, that makes so we

1267
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:43,960
always say God is a creator because he always had

1268
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:46,119
the potential to do it and to actualize in.

1269
01:19:46,159 --> 01:19:46,880
Speaker 19: The moment creation.

1270
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:50,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and this is why Basil says, you know,

1271
01:19:50,399 --> 01:19:52,399
the powers of God are infinite. We don't even know

1272
01:19:52,479 --> 01:19:56,159
all the powers of God. Okay, And you could likewise,

1273
01:19:56,199 --> 01:19:58,720
you can phrase the question to a Thomas differently and say,

1274
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:03,439
does God have the ability, uh to create a world

1275
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:06,319
where there's no pope and no Thomas aquinas, Yes, did

1276
01:20:06,359 --> 01:20:06,720
he do that?

1277
01:20:07,039 --> 01:20:07,079
Speaker 31: No?

1278
01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:07,760
Speaker 1: Oh?

1279
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:11,279
Speaker 3: Okay, So then God didn't actualize all possibilities that he

1280
01:20:11,359 --> 01:20:12,800
has in his power.

1281
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:17,680
Speaker 1: So we would say that he does actualize all the possibilities. No, oh,

1282
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:19,000
we would say he doesn't.

1283
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:21,600
Speaker 3: Because because he has free will, he doesn't have to

1284
01:20:22,039 --> 01:20:27,079
exercise every power. And Basil says his powers are infinite, okay,

1285
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:28,279
infinite as many.

1286
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:31,399
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that was my uh.

1287
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 3: But none of that works if God is reduced to

1288
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:37,479
pure act as Thomas say, I see.

1289
01:20:37,279 --> 01:20:39,680
Speaker 35: I see what you're saying now. Alrighty, I'm gonna.

1290
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:41,720
Speaker 1: Fit with that for a bin. I'll come back next time.

1291
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:45,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question, all right, thank you. Absolutely anytime,

1292
01:20:47,920 --> 01:21:00,159
really good questions, Marcus. By the way, this was the

1293
01:21:00,199 --> 01:21:04,079
passage I was looking for in the Minor prophets Malachi three, Behold,

1294
01:21:04,079 --> 01:21:05,680
I send my messenger. He will prepare the way before

1295
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:07,640
the Lord who will come into a temple, even the

1296
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:08,520
messer of the Covenant.

1297
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 1: Right.

1298
01:21:10,159 --> 01:21:13,079
Speaker 3: Uh so it's John the Baptist that is the messenger

1299
01:21:13,159 --> 01:21:15,079
that prepares the way for the Lord, and that's why

1300
01:21:15,159 --> 01:21:19,279
he comes in the spirit and powerful Logiah. What's up, man?

1301
01:21:19,279 --> 01:21:19,760
You got I'm you.

1302
01:21:21,359 --> 01:21:21,600
Speaker 10: Hello?

1303
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:24,119
Speaker 1: Hello, Yes, sir, yeah, Hi.

1304
01:21:24,680 --> 01:21:29,279
Speaker 26: I was wondering what you think about Halloween as an Orthodox,

1305
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:34,760
because I I I asked my priest and he said,

1306
01:21:35,159 --> 01:21:41,279
it's a celebration of demonic powers. So I'm wondering what you,

1307
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:45,520
as an Orthodox would think about someone celebrating Halloween.

1308
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:47,880
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I guess depends on what you mean

1309
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:49,520
by celebrating. I mean, I don't think it's a big

1310
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:51,199
deal to where a costume and go to a party

1311
01:21:51,319 --> 01:21:53,800
or something like that. You know, the way Paul talks

1312
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:56,520
in First Paranthians is that he says that these things

1313
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:00,079
really have no power over us. But you know, if

1314
01:22:00,079 --> 01:22:02,680
it causes offense then to other people or people in

1315
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:06,199
your family or your friends or other Christians, Orthodox or something.

1316
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:09,439
Then you know, Paul says, out of love, concede to

1317
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:12,880
their weakness. But not only there's anything inherently wrong with

1318
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:16,359
wearing a costume, But if you mean by celebrating it,

1319
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:20,399
like setting aside time to honor this this you know,

1320
01:22:20,520 --> 01:22:24,720
demonic type stuff, No, I think that's ridiculous. But you

1321
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:26,640
could use it as a time to pray for the

1322
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:29,159
debt or something like that. That's my take on it.

1323
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:40,159
Speaker 19: Okay, thank you, Yeah, good questions. What's up, Dave, there's

1324
01:22:40,239 --> 01:22:40,760
going Hey.

1325
01:22:42,399 --> 01:22:46,720
Speaker 36: My question is the essence energy distinctionion, and my question

1326
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:52,079
is basically, how does eternal energies interact with the temporal

1327
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:53,199
type of world?

1328
01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:56,640
Speaker 5: How?

1329
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:59,640
Speaker 3: We don't know exactly. I mean, it's it's something that

1330
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,159
we leave on the basis of revelation, but we're not

1331
01:23:02,399 --> 01:23:06,399
told like exactly how this happens. It's kind of a mystery.

1332
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:08,399
It's the same same way as like, well, how does

1333
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:12,920
how do the divine energies in Christ interact with and

1334
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:14,439
interpenetrate his human nature?

1335
01:23:15,359 --> 01:23:15,520
Speaker 10: How?

1336
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:20,079
Speaker 3: We don't know, but that it occurs we know. Okay,

1337
01:23:21,119 --> 01:23:23,520
all right, I mean I'm not trying to be dismissive.

1338
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:26,279
It's just sort of like, you know, do you want

1339
01:23:26,319 --> 01:23:29,760
to maybe maybe can you restate it or be more

1340
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:32,039
precise in terms of what exactly you're looking for.

1341
01:23:32,319 --> 01:23:35,279
Speaker 36: Well, well, when I was I was reading Rowan Williams.

1342
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:39,000
Wells reading article about Rowan Williams, and one of his

1343
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:44,760
objections to the essence energy's distinction was basically how the

1344
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:48,800
energies interact with the world and would that necessitate like

1345
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:51,640
an eternal world because their eternal energies or something.

1346
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:54,199
Speaker 3: No, well, this is addressed in the very point like

1347
01:23:54,239 --> 01:23:57,560
I was saying a minute ago, which is that there's

1348
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:01,199
different types of energies as as we say, there's what

1349
01:24:01,319 --> 01:24:03,840
are called the energies that are the case from all eternity,

1350
01:24:04,439 --> 01:24:07,079
like love or glory, and then other energies that are

1351
01:24:07,159 --> 01:24:10,960
only related to the temporal order, such as divine providence

1352
01:24:11,079 --> 01:24:15,039
right or Jesus walking on water. Right, that's a divine

1353
01:24:15,199 --> 01:24:17,680
energy that was specific to one time in one place.

1354
01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:21,479
It required a created order for that to occur, and

1355
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:24,520
so Jesus was not from all eternity walking on water

1356
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:29,800
like idiot Roman Catholics things. So there's different types of

1357
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:32,560
energies as Maximus or ce me as Paloma says, and

1358
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:38,680
the triads, so we have to make that distinction. But no,

1359
01:24:39,079 --> 01:24:41,920
there's also the distinction between first and second actuality, which

1360
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:44,600
is that God can eternally have powers that he doesn't

1361
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:47,560
always actualize. So that gets us out of that gets

1362
01:24:47,640 --> 01:24:55,239
us out of the eternal world's dilemma of originism. But also, yes,

1363
01:24:55,399 --> 01:24:58,680
God has other actions or energies or powers that he

1364
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:03,840
was always always only actualizing, like divine love, divine glory. Right,

1365
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:08,000
these these were always operant in the trinity and being

1366
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:11,359
communicated amongst the persons in internity without regard to any creation.

1367
01:25:12,359 --> 01:25:16,399
Creation wasn't necessary or didn't need to be the case,

1368
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:18,600
right for the Father and the Son and the Spirit

1369
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:20,000
to love each other for all eternity.

1370
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:27,479
Speaker 36: So just so I haven't run it there, there are

1371
01:25:28,159 --> 01:25:32,239
specific energies that are temporal and some are eternal.

1372
01:25:32,520 --> 01:25:37,199
Speaker 3: Well, the energies themselves are not temporal. No, they're uncreated,

1373
01:25:37,359 --> 01:25:39,640
but they're in time and space and only relate to

1374
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:43,800
the created order, such as walking on water or you know,

1375
01:25:44,279 --> 01:25:48,920
divine providence. Right, God eternally has the power of divine providence,

1376
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:51,399
but he has not eternally actualized the power to vine

1377
01:25:51,439 --> 01:25:54,079
providence until he created a world over which he's provident.

1378
01:25:55,319 --> 01:25:58,960
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I think I understand. I appreciate.

1379
01:25:59,039 --> 01:26:00,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that was a great questions, and in fact

1380
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:04,560
they relate back to the previous guys question about you

1381
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:07,000
know why it wouldn't lead to eternal world again. If

1382
01:26:07,039 --> 01:26:10,479
you collapse the energies into the essence, you get either

1383
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:13,840
modial collapse or you get this eternal world's origin problem.

1384
01:26:14,119 --> 01:26:16,680
This is what we've been harping on for I've been

1385
01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:18,800
opening on that for over ten years. Others have been

1386
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:22,199
way longer than me, obviously, but you know, we still

1387
01:26:22,239 --> 01:26:25,520
have to repeat this, Lord mollin, what's up?

1388
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:31,800
Speaker 1: Man? What's up?

1389
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:34,880
Speaker 3: We were approaching a thousand over here for a second

1390
01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:37,600
there on YouTube. If you guys want to call in

1391
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:41,560
on YouTube, you have challenges, debates, questions, topics, issues, you

1392
01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:43,880
want to set me straight on call in right there?

1393
01:26:44,119 --> 01:26:49,680
Speaker 13: What's up man, Hey, Jane, yep, I just have a

1394
01:26:50,039 --> 01:26:54,840
question in regards to one of your responses to an

1395
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:55,960
argument that I heard.

1396
01:26:56,920 --> 01:26:57,279
Speaker 1: It was.

1397
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:03,600
Speaker 32: The apeist meant of saying that life is meaningless, and

1398
01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:07,119
you kind of retorted it by saying, if life is

1399
01:27:07,239 --> 01:27:10,720
meaningless and today is meaningless, and if today is meaningless,

1400
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:12,359
then your argument is meaningless.

1401
01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:12,760
Speaker 10: Right.

1402
01:27:13,119 --> 01:27:17,800
Speaker 37: But isn't this a word concept between like overarching t

1403
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:21,800
los versus like meaning in terms of intelligibility.

1404
01:27:23,399 --> 01:27:27,399
Speaker 3: No, because in the old grand scheme it still is meaningless.

1405
01:27:27,920 --> 01:27:31,239
So if you can't ground meaning in anything outside of

1406
01:27:32,159 --> 01:27:35,840
localized physical phenomena, you can't. You can't ground meaning at all.

1407
01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:42,920
Speaker 37: But it was it was in response to like this

1408
01:27:43,079 --> 01:27:45,359
statement itself being meaningless.

1409
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:47,000
Speaker 1: How is it the same thing as like.

1410
01:27:47,199 --> 01:27:51,600
Speaker 32: An overarching purpose to the universe? I feel like it's different,

1411
01:27:51,720 --> 01:27:51,960
is it not?

1412
01:27:52,119 --> 01:27:54,960
Speaker 3: But if there's not an overriding purpose, there's no purpose

1413
01:27:55,039 --> 01:28:00,800
in the particulars? Is the point? Have you read the

1414
01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:02,560
article on demarcation.

1415
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:03,760
Speaker 10: Enough?

1416
01:28:06,119 --> 01:28:06,159
Speaker 1: So?

1417
01:28:06,279 --> 01:28:08,399
Speaker 3: There's a Russ Manion article that's really good on this,

1418
01:28:09,239 --> 01:28:12,760
and it's on demarcation and the signs of nature. You

1419
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:16,079
can find it right here. It's called on Demarcation of

1420
01:28:16,119 --> 01:28:18,800
the Signs of Nature Energetic procession. And if you read

1421
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:21,079
that article, if you get down to the bottom, it

1422
01:28:21,119 --> 01:28:23,239
makes the point that I made a couple of days

1423
01:28:23,239 --> 01:28:26,319
ago on a livestream, which is that there's a you've

1424
01:28:26,359 --> 01:28:28,840
really only got two options when it comes to meaning

1425
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:33,560
and signifier in linguistic philosophy, either the world is an

1426
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:37,520
accident and everything is disteleological and accidental, and if that's

1427
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:41,840
the case, then nothing has meaning, no words mean at all,

1428
01:28:42,680 --> 01:28:46,840
or the world is intentional purposive and there is telos

1429
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:48,800
in words and signifiers do have meaning.

1430
01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:55,680
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll read that article, but that doesn't make sense.

1431
01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:57,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, if you look at the like the last

1432
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,920
few paragraphs, it actually lays out this point that answers

1433
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:02,720
your question. It's a great question. I'm not trying to

1434
01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:05,159
be dismissive. It's it's a and this is a really

1435
01:29:05,199 --> 01:29:10,039
good article for I'm kind of utilizing linguistic philosophy in

1436
01:29:10,119 --> 01:29:13,920
the domain of transcendental augmentation to show that if the

1437
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:17,399
atheist worldview is true, he can't make sentences, as you've

1438
01:29:17,439 --> 01:29:21,560
heard me say for many, many years, light Bender. And

1439
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:24,600
what I mean by that, all you low tier atheists,

1440
01:29:24,720 --> 01:29:27,760
is not that you physically can't make a sentence and

1441
01:29:28,079 --> 01:29:30,800
understand the meaning of a sentence. I mean that your

1442
01:29:30,920 --> 01:29:35,560
sentences don't make sense in your worldview. You can't ground

1443
01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:37,920
or make sense of language and predication is what I mean.

1444
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:38,560
What's up, man?

1445
01:29:39,399 --> 01:29:41,720
Speaker 1: Hey, Jay, Sorry about that. I got a phone calling

1446
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:42,840
new to my last question.

1447
01:29:43,039 --> 01:29:46,479
Speaker 34: So, in regards to God, this morning, I was thinking,

1448
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,600
you know, I'm inquiring into Orthodoxy. I've been going to church,

1449
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:53,600
I've been going to liturgies and talking to other converts

1450
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:55,239
and people, and I'm very interested and I.

1451
01:29:55,279 --> 01:29:56,840
Speaker 21: Feel to drive to that.

1452
01:29:57,039 --> 01:29:59,479
Speaker 34: But I have this question, this shower thought this morning,

1453
01:30:00,239 --> 01:30:01,520
in regards to God and the.

1454
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:02,800
Speaker 21: Trinity before creation?

1455
01:30:03,319 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 34: What is any created category before creation, such as like

1456
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:11,159
a father son relationship or having human traits such as

1457
01:30:11,239 --> 01:30:15,359
hands or feet, or a father without a created female.

1458
01:30:15,079 --> 01:30:18,479
Speaker 3: Like, well, you've got it backwards. They're not created categories.

1459
01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:22,039
They're uncreated categories. The created ideas of father and son

1460
01:30:22,159 --> 01:30:25,600
are grounded on the uncreated eternal relationships of father and son.

1461
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:27,439
Speaker 21: Okay, got it?

1462
01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:31,039
Speaker 34: Because I know Muslims believe that God is completely unlike creation,

1463
01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:33,399
so I was trying.

1464
01:30:33,239 --> 01:30:35,800
Speaker 3: To which under their religion when they try to talk

1465
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:36,359
about him.

1466
01:30:37,159 --> 01:30:37,760
Speaker 1: Right, right?

1467
01:30:38,399 --> 01:30:41,199
Speaker 34: And I have another question because I was also thinking about,

1468
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:43,880
you know, Jesus walking in the garden and making noise

1469
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:46,079
and being heard by Adam and Steve.

1470
01:30:46,920 --> 01:30:53,520
Speaker 21: Sorry, I got the skittles new translation, but that was

1471
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:55,560
preincarnated Jesus, right, So.

1472
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:01,680
Speaker 34: I was wondering, was he an energy manifestation walking through

1473
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:02,279
the garden.

1474
01:31:02,079 --> 01:31:05,079
Speaker 1: That can get heard? Yes, okay, cool?

1475
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:07,800
Speaker 3: And how we did that? How he did that, we

1476
01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:09,760
are not told, but that he did it, we are told.

1477
01:31:10,720 --> 01:31:12,359
Speaker 34: And that'd be the same as Moses having a meal

1478
01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:13,920
with him on Sinai and stuff like that.

1479
01:31:14,159 --> 01:31:17,840
Speaker 21: Yep, okay. And then also one other thing, like the

1480
01:31:18,319 --> 01:31:20,640
dove the Holy Spirit. The dove obviously not like an

1481
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:23,039
incarnated dove, right.

1482
01:31:23,199 --> 01:31:26,159
Speaker 3: Now, that's an energetic manifestation proper to the spirit.

1483
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:30,600
Speaker 21: Okay, all right, that kind of clears it up for

1484
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:31,239
me a little bit.

1485
01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:35,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is not the So the later icon synods

1486
01:31:36,039 --> 01:31:40,239
discuss this and explain that whether it's the dove or

1487
01:31:40,279 --> 01:31:43,640
the tongues of fire at Pentecost, those are energies proper

1488
01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:46,319
to the spirit. They're not the hypostasis of the spirit,

1489
01:31:46,359 --> 01:31:49,000
because the Spirit does not become incarnate, nor does the

1490
01:31:49,079 --> 01:31:50,039
Father become incarnate.

1491
01:31:52,079 --> 01:31:52,800
Speaker 1: Got it all right?

1492
01:31:52,840 --> 01:31:53,199
Speaker 21: Excellent?

1493
01:31:53,720 --> 01:31:54,760
Speaker 34: And then I have one other question.

1494
01:31:55,039 --> 01:31:55,319
Speaker 28: I don't know.

1495
01:31:55,359 --> 01:31:57,239
Speaker 34: You probably addressed this plenty of times, that it has

1496
01:31:57,279 --> 01:32:01,119
to do with free will, and and that I just

1497
01:32:01,199 --> 01:32:04,000
believe it. You know, God is an all knowing, infinite being,

1498
01:32:04,800 --> 01:32:08,600
and I just can't shake the idea personally that you know,

1499
01:32:10,279 --> 01:32:13,960
being that God knows everything my entire you know, every

1500
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:17,720
decision I make, and therefore an extension my will has

1501
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:20,319
already exists within the mind of God in.

1502
01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:25,279
Speaker 21: Prior to you know. Yeah, but therefore my fate and

1503
01:32:25,439 --> 01:32:26,520
my judgment right.

1504
01:32:27,279 --> 01:32:31,520
Speaker 3: Well, knowing all things does not entail that God is

1505
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:37,000
the cause of all things. So that's the mistake there, Okay.

1506
01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:40,000
If you read John Damascus, book one of on the

1507
01:32:40,079 --> 01:32:42,880
Orthodox Faith, he explains how God created a world where

1508
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:46,439
there really are secondary causes. So God is not the

1509
01:32:47,039 --> 01:32:49,960
immediate direct cause of every event, even if he knows everyvent.

1510
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:51,880
Speaker 1: Right.

1511
01:32:52,079 --> 01:32:54,760
Speaker 3: In other words, I might know that my neighbors are

1512
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:56,680
going to rob a bank, and then they rob the bank.

1513
01:32:56,760 --> 01:32:58,520
That doesn't mean that I cause them to rob the

1514
01:32:58,520 --> 01:33:00,720
bank because I had the knowledge of it, all.

1515
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:02,720
Speaker 34: Right, But I guess in this case, in your analogy

1516
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:04,520
would be as though you know, you created your neighbors

1517
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:06,479
from scratch and every decision and act they make in

1518
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:07,119
their whole life.

1519
01:33:07,279 --> 01:33:12,439
Speaker 3: Right, so well, But it's but again, being the creator

1520
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:15,720
and the first cause does not mean that I am

1521
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:20,039
also the immediate direct cause of every action. Because I

1522
01:33:20,119 --> 01:33:23,000
can create a world where there are secondary causes. So

1523
01:33:23,119 --> 01:33:25,720
the argument that you're making hinges on there not being

1524
01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:30,000
any secondary causes. And I mean that might sound like philosophical,

1525
01:33:30,199 --> 01:33:33,640
but no, this is this is actually Muslims actually reject

1526
01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:37,760
this position because they believe that if there are secondary causes,

1527
01:33:38,239 --> 01:33:41,960
it detracts from Allah sovereignty. And so to be consistent,

1528
01:33:42,399 --> 01:33:46,520
they believe in a form of occasionalism, which is that

1529
01:33:47,319 --> 01:33:51,319
every single event, every single second, is directly caused by God.

1530
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:54,560
But why can't God create a world where there are

1531
01:33:54,680 --> 01:33:55,920
real secondary causes?

1532
01:33:58,600 --> 01:33:58,760
Speaker 1: Right?

1533
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:02,239
Speaker 34: I guess the tire none of this would make any

1534
01:34:02,279 --> 01:34:06,760
sense in a judgment or anything without us having free will.

1535
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:08,399
Speaker 21: You know, everything changes on free will.

1536
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:13,279
Speaker 34: So but I just had trouble shaking that one idea there.

1537
01:34:13,399 --> 01:34:13,960
Speaker 10: So well.

1538
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:16,399
Speaker 3: Again, to know a thing does not necessarily mean you're

1539
01:34:16,399 --> 01:34:20,000
the cause of the thing, right, and that's why we

1540
01:34:20,119 --> 01:34:22,439
do not say that God is the cause of all events.

1541
01:34:25,039 --> 01:34:25,520
Speaker 1: I got it.

1542
01:34:26,279 --> 01:34:29,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then I'm sorry I cut you out too quick.

1543
01:34:30,560 --> 01:34:35,720
Did you have one more? You can come back, dude,

1544
01:34:36,439 --> 01:34:56,720
I thought you were done, michelhel, I.

1545
01:34:56,760 --> 01:34:57,319
Speaker 10: Can't shoot me.

1546
01:34:57,479 --> 01:35:02,399
Speaker 12: Uh oh, just gues simple question, How would you defend

1547
01:35:03,479 --> 01:35:13,319
historicity of the entertook against textual criticism and the hypothesis.

1548
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:16,319
Speaker 1: That they all like developed from earlier traditions or whatever.

1549
01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:18,520
Speaker 3: Well, I would just the only way to really argue

1550
01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:23,760
against that is because that position is based on unbelieving presuppositions.

1551
01:35:24,359 --> 01:35:27,439
Our position is based on believing presubpositions. Is that you

1552
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:31,039
have to compare and contrast the presuppositions. And most of

1553
01:35:31,079 --> 01:35:33,920
the time they don't really have a justification for their

1554
01:35:34,039 --> 01:35:38,439
so called textual science, their empirical claims. If you look

1555
01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:43,159
into textual criticism, assume me a higher criticism. Going back

1556
01:35:43,199 --> 01:35:47,319
to Vellhausen, it's very easy to see that Vellhausen has

1557
01:35:47,359 --> 01:35:51,920
an agenda. He's not a neutral scholar. So most higher

1558
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:56,279
criticism is built on the Enlightenment idea of scholarly academic neutrality.

1559
01:35:56,760 --> 01:35:59,640
So you can prove and demonstrate very easily that that

1560
01:35:59,680 --> 01:36:03,600
doesn't exist. So if reality is they laid and then

1561
01:36:03,880 --> 01:36:08,760
they're presenting a deceptive sales pitch when they try to

1562
01:36:08,800 --> 01:36:13,720
present their position as neutral. Also, you can show that

1563
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:16,520
a lot of their arguments just presuppose the thing in question.

1564
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:20,560
The idea that because different names of God are used, well,

1565
01:36:20,600 --> 01:36:23,880
that must be different authors well maybe there's theological reasons

1566
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:27,359
why one author chose different names in different sections. So

1567
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:30,520
you see how like they have these assumptions that well,

1568
01:36:30,680 --> 01:36:33,600
clearly this is the Yahwish tradition because you're using the

1569
01:36:33,680 --> 01:36:36,119
name yahweh. Well, that's just based on an assumption. It's

1570
01:36:36,119 --> 01:36:39,119
based on the assumption that there wasn't an author who

1571
01:36:39,159 --> 01:36:43,439
wanted to use different names for theological signification, for theological meanings.

1572
01:36:44,359 --> 01:36:46,680
And then they'll say stuff like, well, that's just assuming

1573
01:36:47,239 --> 01:36:49,439
you know that the text are inspired and all this stuff. Well,

1574
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:52,520
that's the thing in question. So you'll never get anywhere

1575
01:36:53,039 --> 01:36:56,840
with throwing academia back and forth with those people. And

1576
01:36:56,920 --> 01:37:00,199
also you can point out the textual criticism itself under

1577
01:37:00,279 --> 01:37:04,159
goes all of these fads, the fad of fifty years

1578
01:37:04,199 --> 01:37:06,920
ago and Q and all this kind of stuff. When

1579
01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:09,079
it came to the Gospels, they don't believe that anymore.

1580
01:37:09,119 --> 01:37:12,000
That's not even popular anymore. So why should we trust

1581
01:37:12,079 --> 01:37:15,359
this thing that's shifting sands and comes and goes with

1582
01:37:15,439 --> 01:37:18,479
all kinds of different levels of popularity. How is that

1583
01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:29,119
supposed to be reliable? Jamal? What's up? You gotta mute.

1584
01:37:42,520 --> 01:37:42,720
Speaker 10: Guys?

1585
01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:44,079
Speaker 3: You want to support the stream. You can do so

1586
01:37:44,279 --> 01:37:47,239
via super chats. Super chats are done through stream labs

1587
01:37:47,279 --> 01:37:50,199
and the link is pinned. I'll also put the link

1588
01:37:50,279 --> 01:37:51,560
in the chat here.

1589
01:37:51,439 --> 01:37:52,079
Speaker 10: For you guys.

1590
01:37:54,199 --> 01:37:57,279
Speaker 3: If you want to support me via supergener right there.

1591
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:00,239
I am still sick, so I have to go to

1592
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:04,199
nibble on solid foods here and there that I can take.

1593
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:12,479
If you want to call in, there's the link right

1594
01:38:12,520 --> 01:38:14,520
there on Twitter to call in on through next space

1595
01:38:15,319 --> 01:38:18,279
that got dropped off. So let's see Mark.

1596
01:38:25,039 --> 01:38:25,159
Speaker 10: Yo.

1597
01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:30,239
Speaker 1: Hey, yeah, hey, my friend was on yesterday.

1598
01:38:30,359 --> 01:38:34,800
Speaker 28: He was asking you about donatism and we had talked

1599
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:36,319
a little bit about that afterwards.

1600
01:38:37,319 --> 01:38:41,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh you can hear me, okay, and he wanted

1601
01:38:41,720 --> 01:38:42,760
me to come on and talk with you.

1602
01:38:43,079 --> 01:38:45,680
Speaker 28: So here I am about as far as you know,

1603
01:38:45,760 --> 01:38:47,239
like rebaptism.

1604
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:48,720
Speaker 1: Within the Orthodox Church, okay.

1605
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:54,279
Speaker 28: So yeah, I wouldn't necessarily go out all out and

1606
01:38:54,359 --> 01:38:56,800
just say Orthodox are donatists, right, because I think a

1607
01:38:56,840 --> 01:38:58,560
little of the nuance was lost there when when he

1608
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:00,159
when he came on and was talking about.

1609
01:39:00,159 --> 01:39:02,760
Speaker 3: So let's just make this really really clear. So if

1610
01:39:02,800 --> 01:39:05,119
I go to Athanasius and his Festal letters and he

1611
01:39:05,199 --> 01:39:09,279
says that the Eucharist eating outside of the church, the

1612
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:13,119
Orthodox Church or communion is a dead meal and doesn't

1613
01:39:13,159 --> 01:39:14,800
give you any grace? Is that donatism?

1614
01:39:16,680 --> 01:39:17,359
Speaker 1: Not necessarily?

1615
01:39:17,479 --> 01:39:20,159
Speaker 28: So it all depends on wouldn't it all depend on

1616
01:39:20,239 --> 01:39:22,840
the validity of the apstock succession and the holy orders

1617
01:39:22,880 --> 01:39:23,880
of the priests.

1618
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:26,079
Speaker 3: Who are consecrating that you obviously they have holy orders,

1619
01:39:26,119 --> 01:39:28,279
that they have the attempt to have the Divine liturgy

1620
01:39:28,319 --> 01:39:29,319
outside the church.

1621
01:39:32,119 --> 01:39:35,319
Speaker 28: Okay, so and so then it comes down to whether

1622
01:39:35,439 --> 01:39:36,840
or not it's devoid of grace, right.

1623
01:39:37,279 --> 01:39:38,760
Speaker 3: Well, what it comes down to is that you have

1624
01:39:38,840 --> 01:39:41,279
a mistaken idea as to what donatism is. And so

1625
01:39:41,399 --> 01:39:42,880
this is because a lot of times that people hear

1626
01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:46,840
about the Orthodox view, they think that it's donatus because

1627
01:39:46,920 --> 01:39:50,479
it tends to say that sacraments outside of the Orthodox

1628
01:39:50,560 --> 01:39:55,800
Church are graceless. That's not donatism. Donatism precisely is the

1629
01:39:55,960 --> 01:39:59,840
efficacy of the sacraments depends on the worthiness of the minister.

1630
01:40:00,159 --> 01:40:03,279
And so, in other words, any sin that a minister

1631
01:40:03,479 --> 01:40:06,359
might commit, including having a dirty thought at the point

1632
01:40:06,359 --> 01:40:10,560
of your baptism, would invalidate your baptism. That's donatism. Orthodox

1633
01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:14,479
sacramentology is more precise that we're not saying that the

1634
01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:16,840
sins of the priests have anything to do with whether

1635
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:20,159
or not your baptism is gracious per se. We're saying

1636
01:40:20,279 --> 01:40:24,279
that certain things are necessary as presubsisitions to have an

1637
01:40:24,399 --> 01:40:28,359
Orthodox sacrament, and one of those things is the Orthodox faith.

1638
01:40:29,079 --> 01:40:31,840
That's where we differ with the Augustinian position of ex

1639
01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:34,880
opera eparato, which says that even if you lose the faith,

1640
01:40:35,079 --> 01:40:37,399
or even if you're an atheist or a Satanist, you

1641
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:41,239
can still perform certain rituals and rites such as baptism,

1642
01:40:41,760 --> 01:40:44,479
or the Roman Catholic position that if I get ordained

1643
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:46,279
and that day become a Satanist for the rest of

1644
01:40:46,319 --> 01:40:49,000
my life, I can still confect the Eucharist and blasting

1645
01:40:49,119 --> 01:40:52,000
it as a Satanist. We think that's absurd, and we

1646
01:40:52,079 --> 01:40:54,800
are not donatists because we're consistent in saying that that's

1647
01:40:54,800 --> 01:40:55,640
an absurd position.

1648
01:40:57,359 --> 01:41:01,079
Speaker 28: Okay, So then in that case, then so would you

1649
01:41:01,199 --> 01:41:03,600
say that all out, like, let's just use Roman Catholic

1650
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:05,760
because that's an easy, easy example, right, So would you

1651
01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:10,119
say that all baptisms within the Roman Catholic Church are

1652
01:41:10,239 --> 01:41:10,960
devoid of grace?

1653
01:41:11,279 --> 01:41:11,439
Speaker 10: Yes?

1654
01:41:12,399 --> 01:41:17,439
Speaker 28: Okay, So then wouldn't that mean then that there's vast

1655
01:41:17,479 --> 01:41:20,680
amounts of converts within like the Russian Orthodox Church and

1656
01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:24,159
certain dicees of the of the OCA, where you just

1657
01:41:24,239 --> 01:41:28,119
have unbaptized converts because they're accepting converts.

1658
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:30,880
Speaker 3: In No, because I believe that when they are received

1659
01:41:30,920 --> 01:41:34,960
into the church, whatever defects are lacking are made up

1660
01:41:35,119 --> 01:41:37,680
for by their reception into the church. So I don't

1661
01:41:37,680 --> 01:41:40,960
believe that God is a legalistic being. Counter it's the

1662
01:41:41,119 --> 01:41:45,399
Roman Catholic view that actually believes. It's the Augustinian position

1663
01:41:45,479 --> 01:41:48,279
that makes God into this absurd legalist because if you

1664
01:41:48,319 --> 01:41:51,439
don't say the words correctly in the Roman Catholic position,

1665
01:41:51,520 --> 01:41:56,560
it's all invalidated. That's the legalistic position, not our position. Okay,

1666
01:41:57,560 --> 01:41:59,960
have you seen the recent Arizona story about the priests

1667
01:42:00,079 --> 01:42:02,680
to his entire diocese for the last thirty years. They're

1668
01:42:02,680 --> 01:42:06,439
all invalid because he said the wrong words. No I have, Okay,

1669
01:42:06,479 --> 01:42:09,439
it's a very famous popular Roman Catholic story going around

1670
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:12,000
for the last few years in Arizona. Go look it up.

1671
01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:16,199
That's legalism. The idea that God requires an atheist or

1672
01:42:16,239 --> 01:42:19,560
a Muslim to baptize me, that's legalism. That's your position.

1673
01:42:20,760 --> 01:42:23,279
Speaker 1: I'm not Catholic, and I'm I'm more exploring this.

1674
01:42:23,840 --> 01:42:26,600
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, I I tellt you're Romancolic, I must say.

1675
01:42:26,720 --> 01:42:27,840
Speaker 1: No, I'm not Catholic.

1676
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:31,760
Speaker 28: I'm I'm discerning denominations right now, Like I'm more convinced

1677
01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:35,159
of Anglism. But you know, like I'm not fully decided

1678
01:42:35,199 --> 01:42:35,880
on any one.

1679
01:42:35,800 --> 01:42:42,039
Speaker 3: Thing but Anglicanism. Yeah, I mean, so, yeah, you want

1680
01:42:42,199 --> 01:42:43,680
you want a good trans bishop?

1681
01:42:43,800 --> 01:42:44,439
Speaker 19: Is that what you want?

1682
01:42:45,279 --> 01:42:48,560
Speaker 28: Well, I mean, you know obviously eighty percent of the

1683
01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:50,640
Anglican community. Well, yeah, I'm not going to come on

1684
01:42:50,720 --> 01:42:53,439
and like argue Anchanism at the moment because I haven't

1685
01:42:53,479 --> 01:42:55,119
even like I said, I haven't even landed on one.

1686
01:42:55,199 --> 01:42:57,000
And my friend more wanted me to come on and

1687
01:42:57,079 --> 01:43:00,079
talk with you about the aunatism thing. But this to

1688
01:43:00,119 --> 01:43:04,760
make sure that I understand what you're saying correctly. So essentially,

1689
01:43:04,840 --> 01:43:08,000
someone it doesn't really matter whether or not someone's baptized

1690
01:43:08,079 --> 01:43:11,319
or not coming back into the or coming into the Orthodoxy.

1691
01:43:11,359 --> 01:43:13,760
Speaker 3: No, they should be baptized. I didn't say it doesn't matter.

1692
01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:16,359
I said that they should be baptized if there was

1693
01:43:16,439 --> 01:43:19,640
a situation where you know, it was totally out of

1694
01:43:19,720 --> 01:43:22,720
a cord, the ritual wasn't even done correctly, it's in

1695
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:25,319
the Orthodox Church. It's to be determined on a local

1696
01:43:25,399 --> 01:43:29,399
basis by the local episcopate. Now, not every local episcopaatee,

1697
01:43:29,439 --> 01:43:32,239
and the Orthodox Church unfortunately does this in a proper

1698
01:43:32,359 --> 01:43:35,840
faithful way. Sometimes they're a humanists, sometimes they're lazy. So

1699
01:43:36,199 --> 01:43:39,560
but the point is that it's not ironically. Our position

1700
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:42,560
is not the one that's rigid and rigorous. Our position

1701
01:43:42,640 --> 01:43:45,039
is the one that's actually flexible. It's the Roman Catholic

1702
01:43:45,119 --> 01:43:48,159
legalist position of ex opera eparado that's the real source

1703
01:43:48,199 --> 01:43:51,119
of the problems here. Our position, I think, is perfectly reasonable.

1704
01:43:51,159 --> 01:43:53,399
It's supposed to be left up to the bishop to determine.

1705
01:43:53,840 --> 01:43:56,640
But a lot of times what complicates this is that

1706
01:43:56,840 --> 01:44:00,279
modern day post novasorto Catholicism has gone so far from

1707
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:05,880
what's even remotely traditional. You've got novasorto priests baptizing people

1708
01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:07,079
in the name of the land to see in the air.

1709
01:44:07,159 --> 01:44:09,600
You've got nosort of people baptizing people in the name

1710
01:44:09,640 --> 01:44:12,920
of the mother Earth literally, so in those cases, and

1711
01:44:13,000 --> 01:44:16,359
because it's getting so hard to determine whether there was

1712
01:44:16,439 --> 01:44:20,600
any trinitarian form at all, a lot of Orthodox churches

1713
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:23,000
are saying, and people are beginning to say it might

1714
01:44:23,119 --> 01:44:26,079
be wise to just baptize them all to make sure

1715
01:44:26,119 --> 01:44:28,039
because things are getting so crazy. I think that's a

1716
01:44:28,159 --> 01:44:31,920
wise discipline. So you can't boil all this down into

1717
01:44:32,880 --> 01:44:35,079
either oars. There's a lot of nuance and there's a

1718
01:44:35,119 --> 01:44:38,199
lot of practical pragmatic questions at play in this as well.

1719
01:44:40,279 --> 01:44:43,159
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense, it does it?

1720
01:44:43,399 --> 01:44:45,960
Speaker 28: Like from an outside perspective, it does seem like there's

1721
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:48,920
like this is something that would need to be settled

1722
01:44:48,960 --> 01:44:52,600
because there's a lot of inconsistency across you know, the

1723
01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:54,520
different metropolitans.

1724
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:57,239
Speaker 3: Well, you're not going to now, but that quote inconsistency

1725
01:44:57,399 --> 01:45:00,479
is precisely what we call economia. And so why we

1726
01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:03,039
don't need you an outsider telling us what we need

1727
01:45:03,159 --> 01:45:05,640
to do as the one universal standard. Who are you

1728
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:08,279
to tell us what's supposed to be our standard? You're

1729
01:45:08,399 --> 01:45:11,239
you're not the judge of our of our inconsistency when

1730
01:45:11,279 --> 01:45:15,279
we believe that there can be economia, Okay, I mean,

1731
01:45:15,680 --> 01:45:18,039
do you think you're going to find that consistency in Anglicanism?

1732
01:45:20,079 --> 01:45:22,880
Speaker 28: I mean that depends so, and like even if I

1733
01:45:22,960 --> 01:45:26,039
can't find that an Anglicanism does that that doesn't necessarily

1734
01:45:26,079 --> 01:45:28,000
take the focus off of the fact that it exists

1735
01:45:28,039 --> 01:45:32,359
within orthodoxy, right, so like you know that what exists,

1736
01:45:32,520 --> 01:45:35,760
like the fact that that's an inconsistency, right.

1737
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:38,479
Speaker 3: So No, I did say it's an inconsistency. I said

1738
01:45:38,520 --> 01:45:41,399
it was differing approach. It's called Economyia. Do you don't

1739
01:45:41,399 --> 01:45:42,039
even know what that is?

1740
01:45:42,800 --> 01:45:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, a household family basically.

1741
01:45:44,840 --> 01:45:46,680
Speaker 3: No, no, you don't know what so you don't know

1742
01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:46,960
what they are?

1743
01:45:47,239 --> 01:45:49,479
Speaker 1: Economy sorry, economy right. Yeah.

1744
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:51,399
Speaker 3: So in other words, as I said a minute ago,

1745
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:54,279
the local bishop is supposed to be able to determine

1746
01:45:54,319 --> 01:45:57,239
when and where and how you apply the canons. This

1747
01:45:57,439 --> 01:46:00,520
is a canonical canon law question as to how people received,

1748
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:03,279
and different people are received in different ways because people's

1749
01:46:03,319 --> 01:46:07,800
cases are different. So, for example, if I'm anophice site

1750
01:46:07,920 --> 01:46:11,359
is baptized in the exact Orthodox way that we that

1751
01:46:11,439 --> 01:46:13,199
we believe is the way that it'd be done, right,

1752
01:46:14,079 --> 01:46:18,000
if that Monophysite person renounces their heresy, many bishops can

1753
01:46:18,079 --> 01:46:21,920
and have decided to receive them without rebaptizing or quote

1754
01:46:21,960 --> 01:46:25,359
baptizing them, because if the ritual is done correctly, then

1755
01:46:25,520 --> 01:46:29,359
what's the impediment is the heresy once the heresy is removed,

1756
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:31,960
the baptism becomes efficacious when they join the church.

1757
01:46:33,800 --> 01:46:38,399
Speaker 28: Okay, So then that is where you have an entire

1758
01:46:38,680 --> 01:46:42,319
you know, like an entire church within Orthodoxy.

1759
01:46:42,399 --> 01:46:43,840
Speaker 1: I don't know the exact correct term for.

1760
01:46:43,880 --> 01:46:47,399
Speaker 3: That is, being like you have the Russia about jurisdictions, Okay,

1761
01:46:47,600 --> 01:46:47,840
when you.

1762
01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:50,840
Speaker 28: Have a specific jurisdiction that you know, with the broadbrush

1763
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:56,000
says we recognize, we recognize Roman Catholic Holy orders, and

1764
01:46:56,159 --> 01:46:59,239
so they don't practice, you know, they don't baptize converts

1765
01:46:59,279 --> 01:47:00,000
from Catholicism.

1766
01:47:01,159 --> 01:47:04,800
Speaker 3: You're missing the point, though. Recognizing does not necessarily say

1767
01:47:05,000 --> 01:47:08,039
that those things are gracious. It's saying that the ritual

1768
01:47:08,119 --> 01:47:10,439
is done correctly, and when they join the Orthodox Church,

1769
01:47:10,520 --> 01:47:12,840
the impediments to the grace are removed. By the way,

1770
01:47:12,880 --> 01:47:15,319
do you know, that's actually the Augustinian position. So even

1771
01:47:15,319 --> 01:47:18,960
though we disagree about oper Avarado, nobody in the modern

1772
01:47:19,079 --> 01:47:22,199
Roman Catholic or Protestant world or Anglican world actually follows

1773
01:47:22,239 --> 01:47:25,600
the Augustinian position, which we are actually on this point

1774
01:47:25,680 --> 01:47:29,239
closer to, which says that the impediment to the grace

1775
01:47:29,720 --> 01:47:32,199
is the heresy. So even though Augustine believes that there's

1776
01:47:32,359 --> 01:47:35,880
valid baptisms and even gracious baptisms outside the church. If

1777
01:47:35,920 --> 01:47:38,520
you persist in the heresy, it doesn't get you anywhere.

1778
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:41,319
So we're actually closer to the Augustinian position on that

1779
01:47:41,439 --> 01:47:42,560
point than anyone else's.

1780
01:47:43,359 --> 01:47:45,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that much makes sense, Can I get you?

1781
01:47:45,840 --> 01:47:51,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you're confusing different jurisdictions, having decentralized different approaches

1782
01:47:51,800 --> 01:47:56,039
to as if there's theological error and confusion everywhere.

1783
01:47:56,279 --> 01:48:00,279
Speaker 38: Well, then maybe help me first to this same because

1784
01:48:00,520 --> 01:48:02,079
the whole thing is that, So I get the fact that,

1785
01:48:02,319 --> 01:48:05,800
you know, the grace becomes efficacious or whatever the exact

1786
01:48:05,880 --> 01:48:08,840
particular language used was there when they come in, and

1787
01:48:08,960 --> 01:48:12,000
you know, like it seems like the standard way of

1788
01:48:12,079 --> 01:48:15,760
receiving heretics is confession absolution, right you accept.

1789
01:48:15,479 --> 01:48:17,359
Speaker 3: Them in And no that's not true. So you don't

1790
01:48:17,399 --> 01:48:19,399
know the canon law. The ancient canons, the CANSA, the

1791
01:48:19,439 --> 01:48:22,920
sixth the Council for example, give us different strictures and

1792
01:48:23,039 --> 01:48:27,279
different approaches to different heretics depending upon their case. So

1793
01:48:27,479 --> 01:48:29,680
this is why it's a canon law issue. It's very

1794
01:48:29,760 --> 01:48:32,720
complex at times because of all the different sects. This

1795
01:48:32,840 --> 01:48:35,600
wouldn't be complex if we didn't have a thousand different

1796
01:48:35,600 --> 01:48:38,399
crazy heresies doing all kinds of crazy stuff. And if

1797
01:48:38,439 --> 01:48:41,800
we didn't have nuanced, complex issues in people's lives and

1798
01:48:41,880 --> 01:48:46,560
in church history. So again, the Orthodox position is flexible

1799
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:51,720
on how to receive converts and heretics and schismatics from

1800
01:48:51,720 --> 01:48:54,600
any different group. And if we take in a Roman

1801
01:48:54,680 --> 01:48:57,199
Catholic and the bishops determine that they don't have to

1802
01:48:57,279 --> 01:49:01,000
be re whatever because they were the rituals were done

1803
01:49:01,039 --> 01:49:04,560
correctly or whatever, that does not say or necessitate we're

1804
01:49:04,600 --> 01:49:06,920
saying that they had the grace that whole time. It

1805
01:49:07,039 --> 01:49:09,760
just simply means that the ritual is done correctly, it

1806
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:11,880
does not need to be redone, and the impediment to

1807
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:12,960
the grace is now removed.

1808
01:49:14,039 --> 01:49:15,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, I get that.

1809
01:49:15,880 --> 01:49:17,880
Speaker 28: I don't want to come across like I understand the

1810
01:49:17,960 --> 01:49:19,840
position that it would be nuanced and you taken on

1811
01:49:19,880 --> 01:49:22,000
a case by case basis, it's at tenable.

1812
01:49:22,119 --> 01:49:22,880
Speaker 1: I told you we know what.

1813
01:49:22,960 --> 01:49:26,960
Speaker 3: Canon law is, yes, okay, So Orthodox canon law is

1814
01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:29,039
different from Roman Catholic canon law, and it's different from

1815
01:49:29,039 --> 01:49:32,680
Anglican canon law. And so because it's nuanced and complex,

1816
01:49:32,720 --> 01:49:34,720
and it goes back through all the seven a Chemical

1817
01:49:34,800 --> 01:49:37,319
councils and all the different canons that they have about

1818
01:49:37,520 --> 01:49:40,680
the reception of heretics. There's a lot of confusion about

1819
01:49:41,279 --> 01:49:44,239
different heretical groups. That's the source of confusion is all

1820
01:49:44,279 --> 01:49:47,920
these heretics. So that's why it's up to the local

1821
01:49:47,960 --> 01:49:52,039
bishops to make those determinations. And because it's decentralized, it

1822
01:49:52,119 --> 01:49:54,319
can lead to or give the impression that, oh, you

1823
01:49:54,399 --> 01:49:58,119
guys don't have one consistent position on how to receive people.

1824
01:49:58,720 --> 01:50:02,680
We got you reality, the romancality position, because it thinks

1825
01:50:02,800 --> 01:50:07,680
and prefers prefers to have this single unitary position on

1826
01:50:07,800 --> 01:50:12,319
this actually leads to more stupid positions, like the idea

1827
01:50:12,439 --> 01:50:15,000
that atheists and Muslims can baptize people.

1828
01:50:16,760 --> 01:50:21,239
Speaker 28: Yeah, I guess I think my my underlying point might

1829
01:50:21,319 --> 01:50:22,520
be getting lost here.

1830
01:50:22,439 --> 01:50:25,760
Speaker 3: Then, or maybe tell me what you're not an only point?

1831
01:50:25,800 --> 01:50:28,159
Speaker 17: Is so because I, like I was saying, I.

1832
01:50:28,439 --> 01:50:30,520
Speaker 28: Get like the fact of dealing with it on case

1833
01:50:30,560 --> 01:50:32,840
by case basis. You know, you evaluate each person like

1834
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:35,880
a meophysit or a menophitisite that you call them.

1835
01:50:36,960 --> 01:50:39,079
Speaker 1: You accept them because you know as long as you

1836
01:50:39,119 --> 01:50:42,279
can validate that the actual formula used and the underlying

1837
01:50:42,520 --> 01:50:43,479
you know the consideration.

1838
01:50:43,640 --> 01:50:46,520
Speaker 28: But you still obviously have to accept them in and

1839
01:50:46,600 --> 01:50:48,760
at that point that it becomes gracious.

1840
01:50:49,399 --> 01:50:52,319
Speaker 1: But that's so that's the case by case basis, that's

1841
01:50:52,359 --> 01:50:53,159
what you're saying right now.

1842
01:50:53,279 --> 01:50:58,239
Speaker 28: But you're saying actually case by case on each bishop,

1843
01:50:58,359 --> 01:50:59,720
like an entire region.

1844
01:50:59,840 --> 01:51:04,399
Speaker 3: That's what economia means. Yeah, that just leads to them

1845
01:51:04,479 --> 01:51:07,079
there's not a universal application of the canons in the

1846
01:51:07,199 --> 01:51:11,640
Orthodox Church. Economia means that the bishops apply the canons

1847
01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:13,000
to the situation.

1848
01:51:14,840 --> 01:51:17,520
Speaker 1: So that's just essentially the saying that it's not a

1849
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:18,520
settled matter on this.

1850
01:51:18,960 --> 01:51:22,359
Speaker 3: No, your assumption is that it's possible to have a

1851
01:51:22,479 --> 01:51:26,359
settled matter on a complex matter that is precisely left

1852
01:51:26,439 --> 01:51:29,399
up to a decentralized church in the Orthodox world. And

1853
01:51:29,640 --> 01:51:32,479
the very question that you have is assuming the Roman

1854
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:36,039
Catholic tendency towards there being a universal position on this,

1855
01:51:36,560 --> 01:51:41,560
which I'm saying is what led to all their stupid stuff. Yeah,

1856
01:51:42,399 --> 01:51:45,359
so when this comes up in the Augustinian disputes, this

1857
01:51:45,479 --> 01:51:49,800
eventually leads the Roman position to dogmatizing three things necessary

1858
01:51:49,880 --> 01:51:54,119
for a sacrament. Do you know what those are? No,

1859
01:51:54,319 --> 01:51:58,920
not matter, form, and intention. So that means that anytime, matter, form,

1860
01:51:58,960 --> 01:52:03,039
and intention are there you have the genuine celebration of

1861
01:52:03,079 --> 01:52:05,880
the Sacrament and the grace. That's why it leads to

1862
01:52:05,960 --> 01:52:08,800
the position that because baptism is necessary, if I don't

1863
01:52:08,840 --> 01:52:12,000
have a Roman Catholic or any or even an Orthodox

1864
01:52:12,079 --> 01:52:14,680
person around, if I want to become a Catholic, I

1865
01:52:14,760 --> 01:52:16,720
can go to an atheist and I can get the

1866
01:52:16,760 --> 01:52:19,840
atheist to baptize me. This is because of the seeking

1867
01:52:19,960 --> 01:52:23,760
for a universal resolution to a complex issue that's economia.

1868
01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:28,079
Speaker 1: But matter, form and intention are either there or not there, right.

1869
01:52:28,079 --> 01:52:29,880
Speaker 3: So, but you just now learned that you don't even

1870
01:52:29,880 --> 01:52:32,760
know how. That's itself leads to the stupidity this position,

1871
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:36,319
because how does it mean? How does an atheist? Do

1872
01:52:36,319 --> 01:52:38,319
you know what intention means in that matter form? Intention?

1873
01:52:39,319 --> 01:52:43,439
Speaker 28: Yeah, like, what did you actually have, you know, intending

1874
01:52:43,520 --> 01:52:44,800
to properly perform the sacrament?

1875
01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:47,159
Speaker 1: Did you have the proper understanding of you.

1876
01:52:47,199 --> 01:52:49,760
Speaker 28: Know, like a Mormon might say father son an olighosts,

1877
01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:50,640
but they don't actually.

1878
01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:54,279
Speaker 1: Mean a true trinitarian form? Is that what?

1879
01:52:54,439 --> 01:52:58,600
Speaker 3: That's well, the it's not even that because they realize

1880
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:01,359
that the an atheist is not going to have the

1881
01:53:01,479 --> 01:53:04,840
intention of true belief in the Trinity. And so what

1882
01:53:04,960 --> 01:53:07,800
the romancallaig charis dogmatized was the intention to do what

1883
01:53:07,960 --> 01:53:10,880
the church does, which is retarded. But so, in other words,

1884
01:53:10,920 --> 01:53:13,399
if an atheist, so now I'm gonna get baptized an atheist.

1885
01:53:13,680 --> 01:53:15,720
All I need the atheist to do is to baptize

1886
01:53:15,800 --> 01:53:18,640
me in the doc the form of the Trinity. Uh,

1887
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:20,479
and to for him to intend to do what the

1888
01:53:20,560 --> 01:53:23,039
church does. And this is absurd, And that's.

1889
01:53:23,119 --> 01:53:25,640
Speaker 1: That's why I didn't include. I tried to include, you know,

1890
01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:28,760
a more digestible.

1891
01:53:29,680 --> 01:53:32,600
Speaker 28: Example than an atheist, obviously, because I don't think an atheist.

1892
01:53:32,319 --> 01:53:35,920
Speaker 1: Could give a proper baptism. But so let's let's see.

1893
01:53:36,079 --> 01:53:38,399
Speaker 3: The reason I brought that up was to say that

1894
01:53:39,279 --> 01:53:42,880
the idea that you can have a universal answer to

1895
01:53:43,319 --> 01:53:47,079
these types of church law questions is precisely what led

1896
01:53:47,119 --> 01:53:50,199
to the definition of matter, form and intention and trying

1897
01:53:50,279 --> 01:53:53,800
to give a scientific, universal definition of when a sacrament

1898
01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:55,479
is practiced. That's my point.

1899
01:53:56,279 --> 01:53:59,319
Speaker 28: Okay, I don't want to take up too much time here,

1900
01:53:59,319 --> 01:54:02,039
so I'll just try and get even more specific, just

1901
01:54:02,079 --> 01:54:03,520
for one last example, and see if we can get

1902
01:54:03,520 --> 01:54:04,000
anywhere with this.

1903
01:54:04,119 --> 01:54:06,119
Speaker 1: But I mean, obviously, you know we're gonna end up

1904
01:54:06,159 --> 01:54:06,560
with you have.

1905
01:54:06,560 --> 01:54:08,920
Speaker 28: Your opinion, I mine, and maybe, you know, maybe I'll

1906
01:54:08,960 --> 01:54:10,319
learn something that I didn't realize here.

1907
01:54:10,840 --> 01:54:12,880
Speaker 3: But well, I mean, I'm also going to demonstrate that

1908
01:54:12,920 --> 01:54:14,399
what you're saying is false. So I'm happy to do

1909
01:54:14,479 --> 01:54:14,760
that too.

1910
01:54:15,520 --> 01:54:17,640
Speaker 28: That's that's totally fine. I mean, if you can't, like,

1911
01:54:17,800 --> 01:54:20,159
that's awesome. I mean, I just I care about the

1912
01:54:20,199 --> 01:54:21,279
truth truth obviously.

1913
01:54:21,520 --> 01:54:23,720
Speaker 3: Well then why would you be attracted Anglicanism. Let's get

1914
01:54:23,720 --> 01:54:24,920
to that in a minute. But go ahead with what

1915
01:54:24,960 --> 01:54:25,319
you're saying.

1916
01:54:25,319 --> 01:54:26,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we can totally get to that.

1917
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:30,920
Speaker 28: So okay, So let's say let's get really microscopic here.

1918
01:54:31,079 --> 01:54:34,560
Let's say an individual priest baptizes two persons, two people.

1919
01:54:35,039 --> 01:54:38,439
One of those people goes and joins the Greek Orthodox Church,

1920
01:54:38,520 --> 01:54:42,000
the other one joins the OCA. The OCA does not

1921
01:54:42,159 --> 01:54:44,680
rebaptize him. I know, I think they do case by case.

1922
01:54:44,680 --> 01:54:49,439
They're not like broad strokes as much. But so and

1923
01:54:49,520 --> 01:54:52,600
the Greek Orthodox I think they rebaptize all Catholics. Right,

1924
01:54:52,680 --> 01:54:53,399
I could be wrong on that.

1925
01:54:53,479 --> 01:54:55,800
Speaker 3: I already said that the grace of God makes up

1926
01:54:55,880 --> 01:54:58,239
for whatever's lacking. Pretty much all Orthodox people are going

1927
01:54:58,279 --> 01:54:59,399
to say that even if you're a.

1928
01:54:59,399 --> 01:55:02,319
Speaker 28: Reader, then so then there is something that could be

1929
01:55:02,399 --> 01:55:06,039
lacking in how converts are being received into the Orthodox Church.

1930
01:55:06,880 --> 01:55:09,960
Speaker 3: I already said that you can have liberal Acumenist bishops

1931
01:55:09,960 --> 01:55:12,720
who do not operate faithfully. But that's a different question

1932
01:55:12,840 --> 01:55:16,960
from whether there's economy. So in other words, so so

1933
01:55:17,119 --> 01:55:18,920
can economya be abused absolutely?

1934
01:55:19,000 --> 01:55:22,439
Speaker 28: Of course, Okay, okay, So then yeah, I mean that's

1935
01:55:23,079 --> 01:55:26,640
essentially my like, So that's what I mean. This isn't

1936
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:28,840
like the biggest thing that would scandalize me from Orthodoxy,

1937
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:31,199
but I would say this is something that's scandalous from

1938
01:55:31,279 --> 01:55:33,399
I know, you don't care too much what someone not

1939
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:35,920
on the outside would would say about that, but like

1940
01:55:36,159 --> 01:55:39,199
just from trying to be honest about like that is

1941
01:55:39,600 --> 01:55:41,319
something that does seem to scandalize some.

1942
01:55:41,399 --> 01:55:44,840
Speaker 1: People on the outside. But I get there has to

1943
01:55:44,880 --> 01:55:46,359
be nuance. I totally respect that.

1944
01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:50,479
Speaker 28: But what I'm saying is this is a singular priest baptizes.

1945
01:55:49,960 --> 01:55:51,640
Speaker 1: These two people one area.

1946
01:55:51,800 --> 01:55:55,359
Speaker 28: They declare it yes that you know his there, It

1947
01:55:55,479 --> 01:55:59,000
was properly administered. So they accept this person in with chrismation,

1948
01:55:59,319 --> 01:56:02,800
and you know, it becomes gracious. At that point the

1949
01:56:02,880 --> 01:56:07,079
other person is rebaptized. Is like either the baptism was

1950
01:56:07,840 --> 01:56:09,359
was valid or it wasn't right or not?

1951
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:11,600
Speaker 1: You don't want to use it. Either it was correctly,

1952
01:56:13,239 --> 01:56:14,199
it's just valid.

1953
01:56:14,399 --> 01:56:18,279
Speaker 3: Is ambiguous because sometimes people think that necessitates that it

1954
01:56:18,399 --> 01:56:19,760
also possesses the grace.

1955
01:56:20,600 --> 01:56:23,119
Speaker 28: Okay, so so it was either valid or it wasn't

1956
01:56:23,479 --> 01:56:25,880
and in one case it is taken to be valid

1957
01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:29,600
and the other it isn't. So obviously God is going

1958
01:56:29,640 --> 01:56:32,520
to be He's going to have grace with you know,

1959
01:56:32,640 --> 01:56:35,399
an individual priest or bishop is going to you know,

1960
01:56:35,600 --> 01:56:37,760
like we can't have perfect knowledge of whether or not

1961
01:56:38,279 --> 01:56:41,399
someone received the sacrament properly. My concern is when you

1962
01:56:41,520 --> 01:56:45,880
have an entire jurisdiction with a sweeping yes they're valid

1963
01:56:46,239 --> 01:56:48,720
or no they're not valid. And then there's also ones

1964
01:56:49,039 --> 01:56:52,479
like the nuanced position seems the most tenable, and just

1965
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:55,920
from the outside, it seems like that is a pretty important.

1966
01:56:55,479 --> 01:56:58,439
Speaker 1: Thing to be able to settle. Is how you receive.

1967
01:56:59,640 --> 01:57:02,079
Speaker 28: Converts, even if that's like a case by case basis.

1968
01:57:02,640 --> 01:57:04,319
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, have you if you know the history

1969
01:57:04,319 --> 01:57:07,800
of the church, you'll know that the Church in many

1970
01:57:07,880 --> 01:57:14,720
controversies or in h you know, disputed issues, Many different

1971
01:57:14,800 --> 01:57:17,600
jurisdictions will take different signs or different sides in different

1972
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:21,000
positions and institute different policies. So what how does that?

1973
01:57:21,479 --> 01:57:24,600
Speaker 28: But then then if it's a big enough issue, then

1974
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:26,880
ec Medical Council has gathered so it can.

1975
01:57:26,880 --> 01:57:30,479
Speaker 3: Be settled if it's a big enough issue. Yeah, but

1976
01:57:30,640 --> 01:57:34,159
I mean we've had the flexibility about the reception of

1977
01:57:34,199 --> 01:57:35,319
converts for a long time.

1978
01:57:36,800 --> 01:57:37,000
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1979
01:57:37,119 --> 01:57:39,439
Speaker 28: To me, that just seems like that's a pretty important

1980
01:57:39,479 --> 01:57:42,840
thing to have figured out. But I understand we're probably

1981
01:57:42,880 --> 01:57:43,720
not going to be able.

1982
01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:44,119
Speaker 1: To take this point.

1983
01:57:44,439 --> 01:57:46,479
Speaker 3: Why do you who are we? Why are we supposed

1984
01:57:46,479 --> 01:57:48,319
to think that you are the one that determines what

1985
01:57:48,439 --> 01:57:51,159
the most important thing for the Orthodox Church to figure out?

1986
01:57:51,279 --> 01:57:52,960
You haven't even figured out which church you believe in?

1987
01:57:53,000 --> 01:57:55,039
You have you're gonna come tell us what the most

1988
01:57:55,079 --> 01:57:57,199
important things that we have to have solidified is? It's

1989
01:57:57,239 --> 01:58:00,159
just arrogance. You you just did. What do you mean

1990
01:58:00,239 --> 01:58:01,239
that's what you just argue?

1991
01:58:01,319 --> 01:58:04,199
Speaker 28: I'm yeah, I'm saying this is this is the perception

1992
01:58:04,800 --> 01:58:06,720
that it comes across to me as it seems like

1993
01:58:06,800 --> 01:58:09,920
it would be important. I understand, I don't have holy orders.

1994
01:58:09,960 --> 01:58:12,079
I'm not someone of authority to be able to call

1995
01:58:12,119 --> 01:58:14,159
a counsel. So Yeah, Like I could just shut up

1996
01:58:14,199 --> 01:58:17,159
and never talk about these things, but I'm going to.

1997
01:58:17,359 --> 01:58:19,159
Speaker 3: Well, but I mean, when you get into church history,

1998
01:58:19,199 --> 01:58:21,319
you're going to realize that it doesn't matter which of

1999
01:58:21,359 --> 01:58:25,800
the communions you choose, Like each of these communions has difficult,

2000
01:58:25,920 --> 01:58:29,560
challenging periods all throughout church history and even into even

2001
01:58:29,680 --> 01:58:33,199
in whichever church communion you choose you choose to join. Uh,

2002
01:58:33,319 --> 01:58:35,399
do you think that Anglicanism is going to be immune

2003
01:58:35,439 --> 01:58:38,359
from the kinds of questions that you're raising out Orthodoxy?

2004
01:58:38,479 --> 01:58:42,039
Like these are pretty universal types of issues and questions,

2005
01:58:42,560 --> 01:58:45,760
and so the idea that the idea that I'm going

2006
01:58:45,880 --> 01:58:48,159
to make my decisions based on the ones that I

2007
01:58:48,319 --> 01:58:52,399
arbitrarily decide ought to have the universal answer to certain questions,

2008
01:58:52,680 --> 01:58:55,560
to me seems like an absurd picking and choosing about

2009
01:58:55,560 --> 01:58:56,720
how you're going to pick the real church.

2010
01:58:58,760 --> 01:58:59,560
Speaker 10: I mean not at all.

2011
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:02,279
Speaker 1: Obviously it's not. I don't think I'm going to find

2012
01:59:02,319 --> 01:59:02,880
that anywhere.

2013
01:59:02,880 --> 01:59:05,920
Speaker 28: And that's that's why I think Anglicanism in that sense

2014
01:59:05,960 --> 01:59:09,159
with branch theory, it recognizes the messiness of church history

2015
01:59:09,279 --> 01:59:12,520
and the fact that it is difficult to simply.

2016
01:59:13,399 --> 01:59:15,680
Speaker 3: That I would improve branch theory. I mean that would

2017
01:59:15,720 --> 01:59:20,119
just prove that there's like, you know, canonical issues in

2018
01:59:20,239 --> 01:59:22,560
every church. But why a canonical issue is not a

2019
01:59:22,680 --> 01:59:23,560
dogmatic issue.

2020
01:59:25,319 --> 01:59:28,439
Speaker 28: Yeah, well, yeah, because it hasn't been turned it hasn't

2021
01:59:28,479 --> 01:59:29,600
been turned into dogma yet.

2022
01:59:29,640 --> 01:59:32,560
Speaker 3: So well, no, I would say that the I mean, okay, maybe,

2023
01:59:32,720 --> 01:59:35,319
but like the dogmas of the church in their you know,

2024
01:59:35,479 --> 01:59:39,479
credle sense, have already been solidified. And that's why it's

2025
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:42,319
easy to demonstrate that the Anglican Church does not teach

2026
01:59:42,600 --> 01:59:44,920
what was solidified in the first seven centuries.

2027
01:59:46,239 --> 01:59:48,479
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I would I would disagree.

2028
01:59:48,159 --> 01:59:50,239
Speaker 3: With well, I mean depends on how many how many

2029
01:59:50,319 --> 01:59:53,199
churches are there there's one Holy Catholic and Aphostolic Church

2030
01:59:53,760 --> 01:59:55,640
and you're saying that, no, it's actually they're split into

2031
01:59:55,640 --> 01:59:56,399
a bunch of branches.

2032
01:59:58,680 --> 02:00:01,159
Speaker 28: I mean yeah, I would say from from what it

2033
02:00:01,199 --> 02:00:03,720
seems like from history is that they're like the Great

2034
02:00:03,760 --> 02:00:07,159
Schism is a very difficult. It's not like where you

2035
02:00:07,279 --> 02:00:11,720
have okay, the you know, the Nestorians break off and

2036
02:00:12,199 --> 02:00:15,439
over time it becomes very clear which one is which, you.

2037
02:00:15,439 --> 02:00:17,439
Speaker 3: Know, like, well, the problem with this is that when

2038
02:00:17,439 --> 02:00:19,239
you go to ephesis and you read the way that

2039
02:00:19,359 --> 02:00:23,079
ephesis speaks of the Nestorians, how do they interpret the

2040
02:00:23,199 --> 02:00:25,119
church and the people that are no longer in it.

2041
02:00:26,800 --> 02:00:27,159
Speaker 1: I mean, I.

2042
02:00:27,199 --> 02:00:29,319
Speaker 28: Imagine they said something along the lines of that.

2043
02:00:29,319 --> 02:00:31,159
Speaker 1: They are no longer within the church exactly.

2044
02:00:31,279 --> 02:00:32,880
Speaker 3: So that refused the branch theory right there.

2045
02:00:33,840 --> 02:00:37,640
Speaker 28: Well, the problem is that what I was saying is

2046
02:00:37,680 --> 02:00:40,279
that with the Nestorians, it becomes very clear which is

2047
02:00:40,319 --> 02:00:43,960
the real church, right, it becomes very clear after enough

2048
02:00:44,039 --> 02:00:44,840
centuries of time.

2049
02:00:45,239 --> 02:00:48,119
Speaker 1: But we're, you know, a thousand years past the Great Schism.

2050
02:00:48,520 --> 02:00:52,000
Speaker 28: It's still incredibly difficult for people to recognize both of

2051
02:00:52,079 --> 02:00:53,760
these massive institutions.

2052
02:00:53,239 --> 02:00:54,800
Speaker 1: Which wants to correct correct one.

2053
02:00:54,880 --> 02:00:56,520
Speaker 3: I don't think it's very I mean, well, that's that's

2054
02:00:56,560 --> 02:00:59,439
a subjective. Well, maybe you think it's difficult. I think

2055
02:00:59,439 --> 02:01:02,039
a lot of people do find it pretty simple to

2056
02:01:02,720 --> 02:01:05,079
I mean, do you mean, but you say great institutions

2057
02:01:05,079 --> 02:01:05,640
about Rome.

2058
02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:08,479
Speaker 1: I'm saying big institutions, yes.

2059
02:01:09,319 --> 02:01:12,399
Speaker 3: But you're saying that it's neither Roman orthodoxyous Anglicanism.

2060
02:01:13,279 --> 02:01:13,399
Speaker 10: Uh.

2061
02:01:13,560 --> 02:01:15,920
Speaker 3: And I don't understand. I don't understand your answer.

2062
02:01:17,039 --> 02:01:20,920
Speaker 28: Doesn't say that Rome and Orthodoxy are invalid churches. That's

2063
02:01:21,000 --> 02:01:23,520
that's the whole thing of branch theory, that is there are.

2064
02:01:23,720 --> 02:01:26,920
Speaker 3: It's it's a ridiculous position because it assumes that none

2065
02:01:26,960 --> 02:01:29,720
of the positions are actually the Orthodox Church. There is

2066
02:01:29,760 --> 02:01:30,640
no Orthodox Church.

2067
02:01:30,720 --> 02:01:31,600
Speaker 1: Subjective opinion.

2068
02:01:32,680 --> 02:01:35,560
Speaker 3: Now, it's so so every position, so every opinion is

2069
02:01:35,600 --> 02:01:38,920
a subjective opinion. Though, So now you're a relativest relativist.

2070
02:01:40,039 --> 02:01:42,560
Speaker 1: No, that's not at all, that's completely How was that

2071
02:01:42,760 --> 02:01:43,159
as well?

2072
02:01:43,199 --> 02:01:45,119
Speaker 3: You just said it's suddenly a subjective opinion.

2073
02:01:45,239 --> 02:01:48,039
Speaker 1: How did you get to that, because you're saying.

2074
02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:51,880
Speaker 3: Well, you just admitted that Ephesis teaches that there's one

2075
02:01:52,039 --> 02:01:54,119
visible church and that the Nestorians are out of it.

2076
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:57,439
So you're saying, no, you're shut up. You said that

2077
02:01:57,720 --> 02:02:02,439
that's how Ephesus understood itself in the church, right, yeah, correct, Oh, okay,

2078
02:02:02,560 --> 02:02:05,920
so you do not believe in the ecclesiology of ephesis.

2079
02:02:07,199 --> 02:02:09,880
Speaker 1: No, I agree. At the time there was like, oh

2080
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:10,520
so at.

2081
02:02:10,399 --> 02:02:14,159
Speaker 3: The time when it evolves, was it was was branch

2082
02:02:14,239 --> 02:02:15,199
theory true at that time?

2083
02:02:17,239 --> 02:02:19,239
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, because it was in the trunk form.

2084
02:02:21,439 --> 02:02:24,319
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, branch theory was true when ephesis was

2085
02:02:24,399 --> 02:02:26,119
not operating on the basis of branch theory.

2086
02:02:27,439 --> 02:02:29,600
Speaker 28: But I mean, I wouldn't expect anyone to think that

2087
02:02:30,000 --> 02:02:31,880
there was branches when there was no branch.

2088
02:02:31,960 --> 02:02:34,640
Speaker 3: Yet, when do the branches happen?

2089
02:02:35,439 --> 02:02:37,640
Speaker 28: I mean, I would say the easiest to point to

2090
02:02:37,720 --> 02:02:38,640
would be the Great Schism.

2091
02:02:38,760 --> 02:02:43,399
Speaker 3: And that's how is that not arbitrary and subjective? So everybody,

2092
02:02:43,760 --> 02:02:46,680
and let me ask you this one. Did anybody understand

2093
02:02:47,079 --> 02:02:49,880
any branch theory at that time? So you believe in

2094
02:02:49,880 --> 02:02:55,279
the evolution of doctrine? Evolution, So nobody had a coherent

2095
02:02:55,319 --> 02:02:56,920
ecclesiology until the schism?

2096
02:02:58,359 --> 02:03:00,319
Speaker 1: Oh, I think that it was. I mean, that's like

2097
02:03:00,399 --> 02:03:01,399
saying nobody had a.

2098
02:03:01,479 --> 02:03:04,880
Speaker 3: Clear That's what you dis argued, Gufus. You just said

2099
02:03:04,920 --> 02:03:07,439
that they didn't know yet about branch theory and they

2100
02:03:07,479 --> 02:03:09,479
didn't think there was a branch theory. But by the

2101
02:03:09,560 --> 02:03:11,680
time of the schism, now branch theory becomes true.

2102
02:03:12,520 --> 02:03:15,399
Speaker 1: Well, it's the same as like most like plenty of

2103
02:03:15,479 --> 02:03:16,840
people who.

2104
02:03:16,439 --> 02:03:20,720
Speaker 3: Did not know about uh No, So you're saying they

2105
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:24,399
didn't understand ecclesiology and was defective until there was a schism.

2106
02:03:24,479 --> 02:03:25,920
That's that's a stupid position.

2107
02:03:26,800 --> 02:03:28,920
Speaker 28: As much as the father's part in Icia didn't know

2108
02:03:28,960 --> 02:03:30,399
about the trinity, there was still.

2109
02:03:30,399 --> 02:03:32,279
Speaker 3: The fathers of Icia. I didn't know about the Trinity.

2110
02:03:32,359 --> 02:03:35,199
Speaker 1: What are you talking about the fathers before I said.

2111
02:03:35,279 --> 02:03:37,039
Speaker 3: So they did know the Trinity, So what are you

2112
02:03:37,079 --> 02:03:37,560
talking about?

2113
02:03:37,920 --> 02:03:38,560
Speaker 39: They did, but.

2114
02:03:38,640 --> 02:03:41,520
Speaker 28: There but there's a confusion around certain terms like where

2115
02:03:41,600 --> 02:03:45,520
you see being in person are not used fully consistently by.

2116
02:03:45,560 --> 02:03:48,760
Speaker 3: No, that's a false analogy because they're still trinitarian. The

2117
02:03:48,840 --> 02:03:52,800
people at Ephesus are still conceiving of a visible, single

2118
02:03:52,880 --> 02:03:56,319
institution as the Church. And you're saying that that was

2119
02:03:56,399 --> 02:04:01,079
a perfectly correct ecclesiology until there was a great schism,

2120
02:04:01,199 --> 02:04:02,960
and now it's no longer the case that there's a

2121
02:04:03,000 --> 02:04:06,399
single visible institution. That's evolution of doctrine. That's why you're hairtic,

2122
02:04:07,520 --> 02:04:08,159
because no.

2123
02:04:08,279 --> 02:04:10,880
Speaker 28: It's not evolution, that's simply what existed at the time.

2124
02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:13,920
Speaker 3: No, it's an evolution of doctrinal truth. On ecclesiology. You're

2125
02:04:13,960 --> 02:04:16,760
saying that it wasn't the case that branch theory was

2126
02:04:16,800 --> 02:04:18,920
true for the first thousand years, then in ten fifty

2127
02:04:18,960 --> 02:04:22,319
four suddenly, because of a heresy, branch theory becomes true.

2128
02:04:22,359 --> 02:04:23,079
That's what you're saying.

2129
02:04:25,359 --> 02:04:27,399
Speaker 28: No, I would say that, like I said, it's true

2130
02:04:27,439 --> 02:04:29,560
regardless it was. It was a trunk at the time.

2131
02:04:29,640 --> 02:04:32,600
Speaker 3: There were but the church didn't. So Christ didn't give

2132
02:04:32,680 --> 02:04:34,720
to the church the mind of the church to accurately

2133
02:04:34,840 --> 02:04:37,680
understand for the first thousand years that there's one Holy

2134
02:04:37,720 --> 02:04:39,680
Catholic Aposolic Church and it doesn't mean branch.

2135
02:04:39,560 --> 02:04:43,199
Speaker 1: Theory, and there was one Holy Catholic episode church.

2136
02:04:43,560 --> 02:04:46,720
Speaker 3: So you're a sophist now because you're saying that by

2137
02:04:46,800 --> 02:04:49,000
the time the schism there's no longer one Holy Calthic

2138
02:04:49,039 --> 02:04:49,680
Aabsolic church.

2139
02:04:50,600 --> 02:04:52,279
Speaker 1: I would say there is, but they're no longer.

2140
02:04:52,439 --> 02:04:55,079
Speaker 3: But now you've redefined it to be not the ecclesiology

2141
02:04:55,159 --> 02:04:56,680
that they had for the first thousand years. So you

2142
02:04:56,760 --> 02:04:57,960
believe in evolution of doctrine.

2143
02:04:59,039 --> 02:05:02,359
Speaker 28: It's it's simply a the church came into schism, they

2144
02:05:02,399 --> 02:05:03,760
were no longer in communion.

2145
02:05:03,399 --> 02:05:06,199
Speaker 3: Withes, So now they have a new understanding of ecclesiology

2146
02:05:06,239 --> 02:05:08,520
called branch theory, which, by the way, did anyone at

2147
02:05:08,600 --> 02:05:12,960
that time teach branch theory? I mean, i'm did anyone

2148
02:05:13,039 --> 02:05:14,319
at that time teach branch theory?

2149
02:05:14,960 --> 02:05:15,399
Speaker 1: Probably not?

2150
02:05:15,720 --> 02:05:20,279
Speaker 3: Okay, So that's bullshit Again at another level, you can

2151
02:05:20,680 --> 02:05:22,680
you can do it that way, No, it is that way.

2152
02:05:22,760 --> 02:05:25,039
You just admitted that no one taught this way, but

2153
02:05:25,239 --> 02:05:29,119
you retroactively because of Anglican theologians and the seventeen hundreds

2154
02:05:29,159 --> 02:05:32,760
can look back and pose it in a revisionist way

2155
02:05:33,079 --> 02:05:36,319
that they suddenly became branch theory proponents when you just

2156
02:05:36,399 --> 02:05:38,319
admitted that they didn't actually believe that at the time.

2157
02:05:39,159 --> 02:05:42,039
Speaker 28: So, once churches are no longer in communion with each other.

2158
02:05:43,199 --> 02:05:45,840
Speaker 3: Guess what, the theology of the first thousand years of

2159
02:05:45,880 --> 02:05:48,479
the church is still the same theology, which you've already admitted.

2160
02:05:48,720 --> 02:05:52,720
That's the point, right, So I'm out, I'm done. I

2161
02:05:52,760 --> 02:06:01,479
can't do any more of it. Notice the absurdity of

2162
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:07,359
branch theory. Hopefully everybody sees how stupid that is. So

2163
02:06:08,119 --> 02:06:10,720
they had a self understanding of the church as a

2164
02:06:10,840 --> 02:06:15,000
single visible body for the first thousand years, the church

2165
02:06:15,079 --> 02:06:18,479
has a schiz on. Suddenly branch theory is the case,

2166
02:06:18,840 --> 02:06:21,239
even though nobody at that time believed in branch theory.

2167
02:06:21,319 --> 02:06:23,159
This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. What's up?

2168
02:06:25,199 --> 02:06:25,319
Speaker 10: Yo?

2169
02:06:25,600 --> 02:06:27,039
Speaker 16: So I just said a request.

2170
02:06:27,199 --> 02:06:29,039
Speaker 1: After listening to that last.

2171
02:06:31,239 --> 02:06:34,439
Speaker 40: Argument, I guess my main question is for someone obviously

2172
02:06:34,600 --> 02:06:37,960
you're very smart, and you spend you know, decades probably

2173
02:06:38,119 --> 02:06:43,039
understand this stuff. I would say, what would be like,

2174
02:06:43,600 --> 02:06:48,199
do you really expect everyone to understand these super long

2175
02:06:48,439 --> 02:06:51,000
terms to find the right church?

2176
02:06:51,159 --> 02:06:53,760
Speaker 21: Or is there some other means to which people will.

2177
02:06:53,600 --> 02:06:56,279
Speaker 3: I already addressed this about an hour ago. We already

2178
02:06:56,319 --> 02:06:59,039
talked about other means by which people can find and

2179
02:06:59,239 --> 02:07:01,159
identify the church or to know it does not require

2180
02:07:01,680 --> 02:07:12,039
people going deep into theology. Alex, what's up? I mean,

2181
02:07:12,680 --> 02:07:16,199
if you pay attention to what he conceded. He conceded

2182
02:07:16,279 --> 02:07:19,159
that the attitude of the first thousand years is the

2183
02:07:19,279 --> 02:07:21,760
attitude that the Orthodox still have. If you paid attention

2184
02:07:21,800 --> 02:07:26,119
to what he was saying, go ahead, Hey.

2185
02:07:26,119 --> 02:07:29,199
Speaker 41: Jay, I actually I don't want to debate you on anything,

2186
02:07:29,239 --> 02:07:30,960
but I am a Catholic. I would like you to

2187
02:07:31,439 --> 02:07:36,039
if you can explain the differences in what Orthodox believes

2188
02:07:36,079 --> 02:07:39,720
in on the topic of exorcism, and a follow up

2189
02:07:39,800 --> 02:07:41,960
question that is, do you think there's a lack of

2190
02:07:43,000 --> 02:07:45,600
practicing exorcisms in today's society?

2191
02:07:47,560 --> 02:07:50,880
Speaker 3: Orthodoxy doesn't have this like you know Hollywood idea of

2192
02:07:51,119 --> 02:07:54,319
like this, you know guy that roams around and does it.

2193
02:07:54,399 --> 02:07:55,840
I mean there could be that you could have an

2194
02:07:55,840 --> 02:07:58,880
elder a saint that does that, but no, I don't

2195
02:07:58,920 --> 02:08:01,960
think that we have this same idea as the I mean,

2196
02:08:02,000 --> 02:08:06,520
the orthodox position. Any priest can do that. I'm gonna

2197
02:08:06,560 --> 02:08:08,399
have to go pretty soon because of course we've got

2198
02:08:09,560 --> 02:08:12,079
a big interview that we're gonna do with Jake Rattlesnake

2199
02:08:12,159 --> 02:08:15,840
or good Buddy. We're gonna be covering the Peterson Dawkins

2200
02:08:15,920 --> 02:08:19,159
debate over on his big channel, So I got to

2201
02:08:19,239 --> 02:08:22,680
hurry it up pretty quick here because that's at four o'clock.

2202
02:08:25,479 --> 02:08:28,479
See Stefan DV. Fifteen dollars. Thank you for the content.

2203
02:08:29,159 --> 02:08:31,720
Have you seen I already read that? Excuse me, Bumblebee

2204
02:08:31,760 --> 02:08:35,000
five dollars for having less people call in and ask

2205
02:08:35,079 --> 02:08:37,439
the same questions. Could you make a playlist for the topics?

2206
02:08:41,319 --> 02:08:44,600
I guess, but I don't even know how to classify

2207
02:08:44,640 --> 02:08:48,840
all these? Ryan Beemish one dollar. Would you do a

2208
02:08:48,880 --> 02:08:51,560
debate against Gavin Ortland on now? I don't think he

2209
02:08:51,640 --> 02:08:54,199
wants to do that? Tyler? Five dollars, Thank you so much.

2210
02:08:54,239 --> 02:08:57,239
DC war Working three dollars, Thank you so much. Valentine

2211
02:08:57,279 --> 02:08:59,760
five dollars. What do you think about padre Pio stigmata?

2212
02:08:59,760 --> 02:09:03,520
I think it's a bunch of bunk and probably fake. Uh,

2213
02:09:07,279 --> 02:09:30,800
you gotta make it quick. What's up? Chase, kah mhm, Chase,

2214
02:09:31,840 --> 02:09:35,000
can't hear you? Man didn't turn your speakers on or something?

2215
02:09:38,840 --> 02:09:46,439
Tennessee and anybody wanta we got a almost up to

2216
02:09:46,520 --> 02:09:48,880
a thousand again, what's up?

2217
02:09:49,319 --> 02:09:49,560
Speaker 1: Hello?

2218
02:09:49,920 --> 02:09:50,039
Speaker 10: Up?

2219
02:09:51,079 --> 02:09:51,640
Speaker 3: Yep hey?

2220
02:09:54,199 --> 02:09:56,760
Speaker 29: Uh So I was curious about the Orthodox of you

2221
02:09:57,079 --> 02:10:00,199
on church attendance and with the Protestants. It seems like

2222
02:10:00,560 --> 02:10:02,600
every time the door's open, you're kind of expected to

2223
02:10:02,680 --> 02:10:05,000
be there Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday.

2224
02:10:06,039 --> 02:10:07,479
Speaker 1: What's the Orthodox do you on?

2225
02:10:08,359 --> 02:10:10,279
Speaker 3: Pretty much the same every time the door is open,

2226
02:10:10,319 --> 02:10:13,840
you're expected to be there. So Sebastian, what's up?

2227
02:10:21,680 --> 02:10:21,800
Speaker 1: Hi?

2228
02:10:22,319 --> 02:10:22,960
Speaker 10: Have a quick question.

2229
02:10:24,439 --> 02:10:27,000
Speaker 1: It's regarding brother Nathaniel. Would you be willing to debate him?

2230
02:10:27,039 --> 02:10:30,039
He called you on in his stream yesterday? Now okay?

2231
02:10:30,319 --> 02:10:32,319
Speaker 3: And why it's a waste of time?

2232
02:10:34,079 --> 02:10:37,199
Speaker 1: I mean, like a reason as to why that's my reason? Why?

2233
02:10:41,039 --> 02:10:46,319
Speaker 3: What do you disagree with the goodbye Sidartha? I mean,

2234
02:10:46,359 --> 02:10:48,039
if you don't have a discernment to figure out who's

2235
02:10:48,039 --> 02:10:48,720
got problems?

2236
02:10:48,760 --> 02:10:49,079
Speaker 19: I don't.

2237
02:10:49,840 --> 02:10:50,640
Speaker 3: I don't have time for it.

2238
02:10:58,479 --> 02:11:02,199
Speaker 42: So my question is, how is the Orthodox theory of

2239
02:11:02,279 --> 02:11:06,199
atonement biblical in terms of I just see in the West,

2240
02:11:06,199 --> 02:11:10,760
there's an emphasis on propitiation and expiation with particularly Christ's death,

2241
02:11:11,239 --> 02:11:12,560
but an Orthodoxy.

2242
02:11:12,159 --> 02:11:13,880
Speaker 1: Doesn't seem to focus much on the death.

2243
02:11:14,279 --> 02:11:16,119
Speaker 42: And so I'm just confused as to how you guys

2244
02:11:16,239 --> 02:11:18,560
view like a lot of the language and Hebrews of

2245
02:11:19,079 --> 02:11:20,039
this propitiation.

2246
02:11:20,439 --> 02:11:22,680
Speaker 3: It's covered in the live stream that I've done many times.

2247
02:11:22,720 --> 02:11:26,239
It's covered right here penal substitution refuted in Byzantium. So

2248
02:11:26,359 --> 02:11:28,479
you could look at that video. The address is that

2249
02:11:28,560 --> 02:11:30,960
specific issue. We've covered it probably five hundred times. Jamal,

2250
02:11:31,039 --> 02:11:31,399
what's up?

2251
02:11:42,760 --> 02:11:42,960
Speaker 10: Hello?

2252
02:11:43,119 --> 02:11:43,399
Speaker 1: Helloo?

2253
02:11:43,760 --> 02:11:47,600
Speaker 39: Yep, it was her opinion on the t and eighteen

2254
02:11:47,600 --> 02:11:55,359
split on what on the excuse me between the patriarchy.

2255
02:11:55,479 --> 02:11:59,000
Speaker 3: Of covered it for like six years. Man, I'm not

2256
02:11:59,039 --> 02:12:03,640
going to repeat all that come on the cilias.

2257
02:12:07,560 --> 02:12:08,640
Speaker 19: Two mm hmm.

2258
02:12:09,760 --> 02:12:13,359
Speaker 1: Are you done to talk to Dean and Parker? Know

2259
02:12:13,359 --> 02:12:15,159
where they are? Who Dean and Parker?

2260
02:12:15,399 --> 02:12:18,479
Speaker 43: Dean and Parker, the two if you want, like Jubilee

2261
02:12:18,479 --> 02:12:20,920
where they talk to you talked to Ben Shapiro. They're

2262
02:12:21,000 --> 02:12:23,600
like always on TikTok. They get like seven thousand views

2263
02:12:23,720 --> 02:12:26,520
all the time day and stuff like that. They what

2264
02:12:27,800 --> 02:12:30,560
they debate like Christianity. I think Rachel knows who Rachel

2265
02:12:30,600 --> 02:12:31,159
knows who they are.

2266
02:12:34,199 --> 02:12:37,800
Speaker 3: I mean maybe I have no idea who these people.

2267
02:12:37,560 --> 02:12:41,880
Speaker 43: Are apheists if you anybody else here like on TikTok

2268
02:12:42,000 --> 02:12:45,319
or no, but uh, they talk to I think one

2269
02:12:45,319 --> 02:12:46,279
of them talked to Andrews.

2270
02:12:46,920 --> 02:12:52,159
Speaker 3: Okay. I mean they can always hop in here. I'm

2271
02:12:52,239 --> 02:12:56,000
waiting for it. But you know that's all though, Yeah,

2272
02:12:56,720 --> 02:13:02,079
I'm open to that. I guess, uh to the people

2273
02:13:02,199 --> 02:13:04,760
talking smack like, why don't you come in debate? So

2274
02:13:06,720 --> 02:13:10,279
I like how people think that anytime you don't interact

2275
02:13:10,359 --> 02:13:12,720
with somebody, it's because you're scared, Like what if I

2276
02:13:12,800 --> 02:13:15,000
have discernment and I've known that that guy was a

2277
02:13:15,159 --> 02:13:19,880
quack for the last twenty years. It's just so stupid.

2278
02:13:26,399 --> 02:13:26,600
Speaker 1: Guys.

2279
02:13:26,640 --> 02:13:28,520
Speaker 3: Remember, head on over to chalk dot com and use

2280
02:13:28,600 --> 02:13:30,680
from a code J fifty or forty to get forty

2281
02:13:30,680 --> 02:13:35,760
percent off jy four zero Michael choq dot com.

2282
02:13:42,359 --> 02:13:45,720
Speaker 28: Hey Jake yep Okay, So I know I know the

2283
02:13:45,840 --> 02:13:49,600
last time it didn't last that long, but I wanted

2284
02:13:49,640 --> 02:13:51,800
to ask about the cosmological argument.

2285
02:13:51,920 --> 02:13:53,239
Speaker 16: I watched you a video of it.

2286
02:13:53,359 --> 02:13:55,000
Speaker 1: I know you don't have a lot of time, so

2287
02:13:55,079 --> 02:13:57,479
I just wanna I just want you to kind of

2288
02:13:57,560 --> 02:13:58,680
rehash it because.

2289
02:13:58,439 --> 02:14:00,359
Speaker 3: I can all have time with you right now. I'm sorry,

2290
02:14:00,680 --> 02:14:04,239
I gotta go, but UH appreciate that everybody have a

2291
02:14:04,319 --> 02:14:10,079
good night. I gotta go be on Jake rattlesnake h.

2292
02:14:13,520 --> 02:14:16,199
Speaker 10: M hm m hmm