Speaker 1: If you're given worth the first year of your life,
Speaker 1: it's you're given a bottle. That's a life need, but
Speaker 1: the way you're given that bottle is a self worth need,
Speaker 1: and it's invisible because parents can get perturbed, parents can
Speaker 1: be exhausted, and the baby can get up in the
Speaker 1: middle of the night three times, right, And does it
Speaker 1: want to be fed? Does it want to be rocks?
Speaker 1: Does it want to be changed? You know you have
Speaker 1: to figure it out, and so you get so tired
Speaker 1: and so then you can give that next bottle in
Speaker 1: a very apathetic or angry way, like oh, fight and
Speaker 1: be hungry. That's received on an emotional level.
Speaker 2: Are you in the first thirty days of sobriety are
Speaker 2: wondering if now is your time to start? Hi? I'm
Speaker 2: Marcy Hopkins and I wrote wake Up You're not Broken,
Speaker 2: just for you. It's a real raw guide to those
Speaker 2: first thirty days. What no one tells you, what you
Speaker 2: will feel, and how to keep going. This isn't about perfection,
Speaker 2: It's about progress. Or do your copy now on Amazon.
Speaker 2: Remember you're not alone, You're not broken, You're waking up.
Speaker 2: What if the reason you struggle to set boundaries isn't
Speaker 2: because you don't know how. What if the reason you
Speaker 2: keep performing, people, pleasing and chasing validation has nothing to
Speaker 2: do with confidence at all. What if underneath all of
Speaker 2: it is one hidden belief that your worth has to
Speaker 2: be earned. Welcome back to Wake Up with Marcy. I
Speaker 2: am so grateful you are here, whether you're watching or listening.
Speaker 2: If you're new here, thank you for being here. I'm
Speaker 2: Marcy Hopkins, your host. I'm an author, TV host, motivational speaker,
Speaker 2: mental health advocate, and a woman in long term recovery.
Speaker 2: And this show is all about honest conversations around mental health, recovery,
Speaker 2: women's health, self discovery, and what it really takes to
Speaker 2: rebuild your life. And if today's conversation resonates with you,
Speaker 2: please make sure to like, comment, share this episode with
Speaker 2: someone who needs to hear it, because these conversations help
Speaker 2: people realize that they're not alone. So today we're going
Speaker 2: to talk about something that impacts every area of our lives,
Speaker 2: whether we realize it or not, and that is self worth.
Speaker 2: Many people spend their entire lives trying to prove they're enough,
Speaker 2: without realizing their worth was never something they had to earn.
Speaker 2: In the first place. My guest today is Donna Danielle.
Speaker 2: Donna is a professional counselor, educator and author who specializes
Speaker 2: in helping people understand the connection between self worth and
Speaker 2: emotional healing. Through her work, she's discovered that many people
Speaker 2: struggling with anxiety, depression, relationship challenges, and self doubt aren't
Speaker 2: broken at all. They're living with a pattern of denied
Speaker 2: self worth, and her new book, Understanding Self Worth explores
Speaker 2: how reclaiming our worth can transform the way we see
Speaker 2: ourselves and the way we live our lives. Now, let's
Speaker 2: meet Donna. Hello Donna, and welcome to Wake Up with Marcy.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: I love this topic around self worth. Just so you know,
Speaker 2: I found self worth probably about eight years ago. I'm
Speaker 2: fifty six years old, so you know, this is something
Speaker 2: that's really important because so many of us from our
Speaker 2: past and how we were raised and such is how
Speaker 2: we feel about ourselves, and it really affects that.
Speaker 1: I agree. Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so, Donna. You yourself, You've I mean, you've
Speaker 2: built your entire career around helping people in this area
Speaker 2: understanding self worth. So why do you believe so many
Speaker 2: people are struggling to feel worthy.
Speaker 1: I do have a philosophy on that because I've looked
Speaker 1: back in some of the historical statements, you know, researchers
Speaker 1: have gone back and tried to find evidence of like
Speaker 1: why we think the way we do now. Some of
Speaker 1: the earliest writings I found were Saint Augustine of Hippo.
Speaker 1: He was a religious leader, and a lot of his
Speaker 1: early writings and philosophy about the religion at the time
Speaker 1: is still being used today and along with his beliefs.
Speaker 1: And then some of the things that came out of
Speaker 1: the Socratic philosophy is that you work for worth, that
Speaker 1: you prove your worth. I'm not saying that's wrong, but
Speaker 1: I what I've learned is that when we work for worth,
Speaker 1: we don't actually feel worthy. We feel like we're attaining
Speaker 1: something that can be taken away because we've worked for it.
Speaker 1: And that's why in the book, I have a co author,
Speaker 1: doctor Chris Brown, and when we were talking about this
Speaker 1: foundational type of human worth, we decided to call it
Speaker 1: birthright self worth. And I loved that because it meant
Speaker 1: everybody gets it just because you exist, and that's what's missing.
Speaker 1: This other type that we talk about in the book,
Speaker 1: it's not worked for its realized self worth. And the
Speaker 1: goal of the building the pillars of self worth is
Speaker 1: that if they're built on a foundation of self worth,
Speaker 1: that's a birthright for every human. You can have awareness
Speaker 1: of awareness of that worth. Respect for that worth is
Speaker 1: a second pillar. Esteem that builds from that worth, and
Speaker 1: then confidence in that worth. You get a capstone called
Speaker 1: realize self worth. It's just about you and that's true
Speaker 1: self worth birthright. Self worth is the starting point. Realize
Speaker 1: self worth is what we attain sometime in adulthood. It
Speaker 1: is an achievement, but it's not for anybody else. So
Speaker 1: it's not about an acceptance in a system.
Speaker 2: Well, while I appreciate all of that and I totally
Speaker 2: get it because that is exactly what I did, what
Speaker 2: is the root of it? I mean, we have right,
Speaker 2: we are born happy humans. Right, I mean we are
Speaker 2: born worthy. It is our environment social impact, Like these
Speaker 2: are the things the people that are raising us and
Speaker 2: the circumstances in our life that are affecting how we
Speaker 2: feel about ourselves and the transactional feeling that we get
Speaker 2: that we have to work for our worth. So what
Speaker 2: is the basis of that, is it more people that
Speaker 2: have trauma? Like what, what is it really truly affecting
Speaker 2: our worth? And if that is true, how are we
Speaker 2: getting it back?
Speaker 1: Oh? Great question. So I mean this gets into some
Speaker 1: big thematic things. One of the things I've seen is
Speaker 1: I've done some reading, and this is over the last
Speaker 1: thirty years, is the belief that some people early on
Speaker 1: in civilization traded worth for power, because if everybody feels worthy,
Speaker 1: they're harder to control. And so people that got into
Speaker 1: power started making worth about things, and they started placing
Speaker 1: value in things, and so the king with the bigger
Speaker 1: kingdom was treated as more worthy than the person that
Speaker 1: they just took a kingdom from. And of course that
Speaker 1: seemed practical in the sense that, well, but that person's
Speaker 1: kingdom is gone and so they don't have anything to
Speaker 1: rule anymore. So it was easy to start looking at
Speaker 1: the most powerful person as having a higher value, and
Speaker 1: then we lost this concept of worth in all of
Speaker 1: those battles, and those battles happen in homes as well.
Speaker 1: We see a sibling try to dethrone another sibling. We see,
Speaker 1: you know, an aunt or uncle try to become the
Speaker 1: favorite of the children, of nieces and nephews. We see
Speaker 1: a lot of usurping of personal power even in family
Speaker 1: systems today, and it tells me that we're still in
Speaker 1: a system that power is running the show. And I
Speaker 1: would add to Dex we talk about this in the book,
Speaker 1: that you can trade worth for importance in any decision
Speaker 1: you make, and that's a really dangerous outcome because once
Speaker 1: you get importance, you're going to want more and you'll
Speaker 1: always need more. Power is not a good counterfeit, and
Speaker 1: importance is not a good counterfeit. For worse, they work
Speaker 1: to a certain degree and there is more to get.
Speaker 1: But what we see probably your whole life, I've seen
Speaker 1: it my whole life, is people that get hungry for
Speaker 1: power and love the importance that comes with it. They
Speaker 1: don't care who they trample. At some point, they get
Speaker 1: obsessed with possessing more.
Speaker 2: And that can be at any level, right, I mean truly, yeah,
Speaker 2: because power is different for everyone. I know that for me,
Speaker 2: I had the things that happened to me in my past,
Speaker 2: and then I kind of started working in this survival
Speaker 2: mode and then with that it was like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to be my mother, I'm going to show them,
Speaker 2: you know whatever. With each thing that I accomplished, I
Speaker 2: was trying to feel something from that, like you're talking about,
Speaker 2: I was trying to fill my cup. But the thing
Speaker 2: is that thing would happen and then I wouldn't even
Speaker 2: appreciate that win. It would just be on to the
Speaker 2: next thing. So it's kind of like that hamster wheel
Speaker 2: we talk about. We're just constantly seeking the next thing
Speaker 2: for feeling that worth, when in fact we never really
Speaker 2: feel fulfilled.
Speaker 1: Well, you never feel worthy. You're seeking worth in the
Speaker 1: wrong ways. And so wherever there are systems, and I
Speaker 1: mean family systems first, but then also community systems, where
Speaker 1: there are conditions, there are always counterfeits. Conditions serve counterfeits.
Speaker 1: A counterfeit can sound positive, like all of our kids
Speaker 1: are going to go to Ivy League colleges. That can
Speaker 1: sound positive, It can sound like parents who really care
Speaker 1: about their kid's success. Right, But when it becomes a condition, right,
Speaker 1: and the hidden counterfeit behind that can make us.
Speaker 2: Look good, yes, right, yes, So then.
Speaker 1: The kids, if you put that condition in place, it
Speaker 1: becomes the new foundation, and the pillars that are built
Speaker 1: are awareness of the condition. Only respect the condition, Your
Speaker 1: esteem comes from that condition, and then your confidence is
Speaker 1: in living towards that condition. And you're trying to get
Speaker 1: a capstone of Ivy League education, but underneath that is
Speaker 1: and that'll make my parents love me. Yes, instead of
Speaker 1: loving the kids from the beginning, offering them worth as
Speaker 1: a birthright and saying I don't know who you are yet,
Speaker 1: I'm going to help you figure out it out. And
Speaker 1: it's going to take the next twenty twenty one years
Speaker 1: through development. And we've brought Ericson's psychosocial model in and
Speaker 1: we've paired the different developmental stages of self worth along
Speaker 1: with each of those stages that he offers. Because what
Speaker 1: we're looking at is if you're given worth the first
Speaker 1: year of your life, it's you're given a bottle. That's
Speaker 1: a life need. But the way you're given that bottle
Speaker 1: is a self worth need. And it's invisible because parents
Speaker 1: can get perturbed, parents can be exhausted, and the baby
Speaker 1: can get up in the middle of the night three times, right,
Speaker 1: And does it want to be fed? Does it want
Speaker 1: to be rocks? Does it want to be changed? You know,
Speaker 1: you have to figure it out, and so you get
Speaker 1: so tired and so then you can give that next
Speaker 1: bottle in a very apathetic or angry way like, oh,
Speaker 1: fight and be hungry. That's received on an emotional level.
Speaker 2: How about that? Yeah, that's powerful and that makes a
Speaker 2: lot of sense because even if they don't understand words,
Speaker 2: they understand the feeling and the energy that you're putting
Speaker 2: off and your tone, right, all of those things.
Speaker 1: There.
Speaker 2: And I see this a lot and where I live,
Speaker 2: it does somehow make you feel as a parent like, oh,
Speaker 2: if my child does this thing, then this makes me
Speaker 2: look good, right, yeah, and it does put so much
Speaker 2: pressure on these kids. Not everyone's path is the same.
Speaker 2: We don't, and we have this cookie cutter thing in
Speaker 2: some regards, right, And now I feel we are understanding
Speaker 2: that we do have different paths and that's okay. But
Speaker 2: through this there's a lot of anxiety and depression, Yes,
Speaker 2: that is being experienced. And you say that anxiety and
Speaker 2: depression can sometimes stem from denied self worth. Yes, and
Speaker 2: that's really powerful. So can you explain what you mean
Speaker 2: by that?
Speaker 1: That was really important to name a phenomenon that I
Speaker 1: saw over and over again. I call it denied self
Speaker 1: worth because I don't believe you can lose self worth
Speaker 1: but so many of my clients were coming in with
Speaker 1: what I started calling a lost worth story. They believed
Speaker 1: their worth was lost. And I started to get a
Speaker 1: sense of why they believed it, because if the people
Speaker 1: who love them didn't affirm their worth, it must be lost.
Speaker 1: They did this little mental gymnastics in their head. Well,
Speaker 1: the people that love me don't affirm my worth, so
Speaker 1: it must be lost. And so I started calling it
Speaker 1: denied self worth, and just I feel like it's so
Speaker 1: oftens the experience. It's like, how can they affirm your
Speaker 1: worth and they don't know how to affirm their own
Speaker 1: and so the system promotes this these threads of denied
Speaker 1: self worth in different ways. And that's the real problem.
Speaker 1: It's not that all worth is denied. Conditional worth means
Speaker 1: some things about you are affirmed, But it's the conditions
Speaker 1: that the parents want in the system that either make
Speaker 1: them look good or make them less afraid. There are
Speaker 1: lots of ways this plays out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, Yeah, a lot of sense
Speaker 2: that fear. So tell us what's the difference between self worth,
Speaker 2: self esteem, and confidence.
Speaker 1: That was a really fun part of my research is
Speaker 1: I would hear clients talk about self confidence, they wanted
Speaker 1: more self confidence, or they had low self esteem, or
Speaker 1: they didn't know how to respect themselves. And I started
Speaker 1: looking those terms up. Just I went to the dictionary.
Speaker 1: I was like, what what does the world say about
Speaker 1: these concepts? And there was tons of overlap. I want
Speaker 1: you to do this as an experiment. Just go to
Speaker 1: the dictionary and look each of those terms up and
Speaker 1: you'll see a tremendous amount of overlap. And I was like, why,
Speaker 1: why do all these terms have overlap? What's combining them?
Speaker 1: What's the common thread? And then I was like, what
Speaker 1: if it's worth? What if when you honor worth? All
Speaker 1: of those things start to happen. And so that's why
Speaker 1: I put all those together. Awareness is a pillar because
Speaker 1: without awareness, you can't take the next steps. So awareness
Speaker 1: of yourself is worthy has to happen. And that's what
Speaker 1: I work on in therapy A lot is just starting
Speaker 1: to create awareness of self worth and of human worth.
Speaker 1: We need both. My most conscientious clients and I just
Speaker 1: love their hearts. They can't even get into the self
Speaker 1: worth stuff if I don't talk about human worth because
Speaker 1: they want everybody to be okay, and I just I
Speaker 1: love that kind of wiring in people. So then when
Speaker 1: we look at self respect as the second pillar, respect
Speaker 1: is how we protect self worth. And I've decided that's
Speaker 1: what it was made for. Yeah, it's been misused. It's
Speaker 1: been used as a way to get conformity. You will
Speaker 1: respect me. But if I'm a parent and I respect
Speaker 1: the worth of my child, I sound very differently. I
Speaker 1: say things like, hey, please don't disrespect me as your parent,
Speaker 1: but I'm also not interested in disrespecting you as a
Speaker 1: person trying to figure out who you are.
Speaker 2: God, I love that. I love that, Yeah, I I do.
Speaker 2: I try to do that. I tried to be respectful
Speaker 2: of my children's feelings because I recognize and threw my
Speaker 2: own upbringing. My mother. There were a lot of things
Speaker 2: that were going on, but I just remember this one
Speaker 2: particular time where she was trying to parent me, and
Speaker 2: she didn't parent me often, and so I was disrespectful
Speaker 2: to her. I was a senior in high school and
Speaker 2: I wanted to go out and she was out partying
Speaker 2: all the time, and there was so much dysfunction in
Speaker 2: my family, and she said that I couldn't go, and
Speaker 2: I said, no, you aren't going to tell me. I
Speaker 2: can't go. I'm going. And she was saying that I
Speaker 2: didn't respect her, and I said, how can I respect
Speaker 2: you when you never respect me? And it really is
Speaker 2: an exchange. There is so much more respect when you
Speaker 2: respect this human And I learned so much much about myself,
Speaker 2: even through the eyes of my children. Yes, yeah, so
Speaker 2: I you know, I really appreciate that. And I myself,
Speaker 2: I'm almost eleven years sober. And it's through all of
Speaker 2: my healing and rewiring of my brain and the actions
Speaker 2: that I've taken every day to create this change of
Speaker 2: myself because and I talk about worth a lot, because worth,
Speaker 2: I didn't have any self worth. I had couldn't communicate well,
Speaker 2: I had no self boundaries, no self esteem, confidence. I
Speaker 2: just felt like I was a shell of a person, truly,
Speaker 2: and I used alcohol most of my life to cope
Speaker 2: with that feeling, to give myself confidence and.
Speaker 1: Act like I had it all together.
Speaker 2: Until it broke me down completely. Through this healing and
Speaker 2: the gratitude and forgiveness and all these different ways that
Speaker 2: I've learned to find myself, and I don't find your
Speaker 2: worthy self exactly, And it doesn't have to be transactional anymore.
Speaker 1: Right, One of the things I love to do in
Speaker 1: session as I introduce this is I'll say, okay, here's
Speaker 1: your worth, and think of it as sitting like right
Speaker 1: over your heart, because I believe it lives here more
Speaker 1: than here. This is where conditional worth is. It's the
Speaker 1: workforce stuff is up here, the real stuff, like keep
Speaker 1: it right close to our heart. And unfortunately, there are
Speaker 1: family systems that have been doing this for generations. They
Speaker 1: start sliding conditions over the top of that. So when
Speaker 1: you look down, you don't see your worth. You only
Speaker 1: see the condition required to belong in that system, and
Speaker 1: it can get stacked full of conditions. It's usually more
Speaker 1: than one that's operating, and so your worth isn't gone,
Speaker 1: but you can't access it, and it's yours. It's your
Speaker 1: self worth sitting there wanting to be affirmed, wanting to
Speaker 1: be honored. And so when you looked at and you're
Speaker 1: looking for it, and you're like, am I not worthy?
Speaker 1: And the world doesn't support me being worthy because if
Speaker 1: your own parents don't, the world doesn't really show up
Speaker 1: and give you a different message. And so what I
Speaker 1: tell people to do is like, what if we slid
Speaker 1: that condition, we can do one at a time. Okay,
Speaker 1: but if we slid that out and we've got to
Speaker 1: look at that, that's actually a very scary moment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because what I see happen in the face of the
Speaker 1: person I'm working with is when I do this, I
Speaker 1: see them get gripped with fear because they're afraid nothing's there.
Speaker 1: It's why they won't ever slide those conditions away, because
Speaker 1: if you can get some worth for this, you're going
Speaker 1: to take that to not find out this is gone.
Speaker 1: I just don't believe this is gone. Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: what we come in contact with in session is how
Speaker 1: frightening it is to think maybe I'm not worthy. And
Speaker 1: that's why addictions crop up. I mean a lot of
Speaker 1: the new writings around trauma say all addictions stems from trauma. Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 2: There's yeah, there is a reason. And it doesn't have
Speaker 2: to be a childhood trauma. Could be divorced, could be
Speaker 2: something in your adulthood, the grief you know, somebody passes on.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I just.
Speaker 2: I work with a lot of people, and in the
Speaker 2: work that I do, there's once you get to that
Speaker 2: place of alcohol used disorder and and you feel like
Speaker 2: you can't stop and there's no other way, and then
Speaker 2: you have so much shame and guilt around it, and
Speaker 2: it's just like you don't feel worthy, and then you
Speaker 2: feel even less worthy because of what you have done
Speaker 2: with your life.
Speaker 1: Well, it's how you start parenting yourself. And we don't
Speaker 1: say that enough, but we will copy the ways we
Speaker 1: were parented. But the reason I felt like this book
Speaker 1: needed to be written and why I developed worth conscious
Speaker 1: theory is it's so invisible the phenomenon that are behind
Speaker 1: all of these really awful human experiences that affect worth.
Speaker 1: That part's been invisible, like my whole life, and people
Speaker 1: talk about worth and they say you're worthy, and they
Speaker 1: couldn't put structure behind it. I was like, how do
Speaker 1: we restructure this and how do we give it to
Speaker 1: each other? I really feel like we can empower each
Speaker 1: other when our parents didn't know how to, and we
Speaker 1: need to, Like, this is a gift that humanity can
Speaker 1: give each other. It's like giving back and helping the
Speaker 1: next generation get a hold of something that tangible and
Speaker 1: that can be reaffirmed and can be eventually realized and
Speaker 1: then it's solid. And you asked me a question earlier
Speaker 1: about confidence. When you have confidence in your worth as
Speaker 1: a birthright, and you develop realize self worth. That realize
Speaker 1: self worth is unshakable. Nothing anyone says from that point
Speaker 1: on takes any chunk of your worth out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or it can affect you a little bit, but
Speaker 2: then you have the tools and you can manage the
Speaker 2: I feel like that crazy in your head, right, Like
Speaker 2: if somebody says something and it hurts you and it
Speaker 2: kind of changes the way you think, and then you
Speaker 2: can ask yourself, why am I feeling that? What is
Speaker 2: the root of that versus having that person affect you
Speaker 2: and how you feel about yourself.
Speaker 1: What if we change that inner dialogue too, When somebody
Speaker 1: moves against us and we feel it, it should hurt
Speaker 1: because they've been unkind, so we feel it it hurts.
Speaker 1: What if we change that internal dialogue to why would
Speaker 1: that person move against my worth? Why would they deny
Speaker 1: my worth? That's such a weird thing to do. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't deny their worth. Like, what if we made it
Speaker 1: about that instead of why are you hurting me? Right?
Speaker 1: Then we just personalized it. We just took the pain
Speaker 1: and we put it on like a coat. But if
Speaker 1: we distance ourselves a little bit and say I felt
Speaker 1: the move against me, I felt the verbal or emotional assault, right,
Speaker 1: and it hurts that somebody is willing to do that
Speaker 1: to me. But why are they denying my worth? Because
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in doing that to them? Do you
Speaker 1: see how we get a little distance when we make
Speaker 1: it about something that simple? And what if that's the truth.
Speaker 1: What if they're doing to us what's always been done
Speaker 1: to One of the things I like to talk about
Speaker 1: in session. And I don't believe this made it into
Speaker 1: the book. If it did, it was one little instance,
Speaker 1: because I need to do more research on this. But
Speaker 1: I talk about worth envy and that there are people
Speaker 1: that have worth envy and when they see it in you,
Speaker 1: it's like, how dare you think you're so special? And
Speaker 1: they can't believe that you have something they don't have.
Speaker 1: And I have found those individuals were so hungry to
Speaker 1: have their worth affirmed at a very early age and
Speaker 1: then they gave up. And I believe a child will
Speaker 1: try thousands of times to get their worth affirm before
Speaker 1: they give up. I mean thousands and thousands of times.
Speaker 1: So when we meet those people out and about, like
Speaker 1: in the workplace, and they move against our worth, and
Speaker 1: then they realize we're resilient, and so they move against
Speaker 1: us again and again. They can't believe we have the thing.
Speaker 1: They always want it, and they think they can take
Speaker 1: it away from us. They think that they can diminish it,
Speaker 1: and then that will make their choice of surrendering it
Speaker 1: easier to live with. And I think all of that's subconscious,
Speaker 1: by the way, I don't think you're actively like I'm
Speaker 1: going to move against your y. Yeah, it's all emotional.
Speaker 1: It's all a feeling based thing. That's why I call
Speaker 1: it invisible.
Speaker 2: Well, what about like the comparison, like that we're all
Speaker 2: comparing our lives to other people and this could is
Speaker 2: any age, you know, with social media, especially today, So
Speaker 2: what can we do to help ourselves not compare our
Speaker 2: lives to someone else's.
Speaker 1: I don't remember the name of this professor. He was
Speaker 1: at William and Mary College and he set up three quadrants.
Speaker 1: The way I use this concept is I take those
Speaker 1: three quadrants that he said up, which was collaboration and
Speaker 1: then competition and then combativeness. So those are the three
Speaker 1: quadrants that human beings get into. And we live in
Speaker 1: a highly competitive society, right, So comparing is just the
Speaker 1: beginning point to competition. First we compare, and then we compete.
Speaker 1: What I've seen is that you're one step away from
Speaker 1: the next quadrant. So if you're living in the competitive quadrant,
Speaker 1: you're just one step away from the combative quadrant. So
Speaker 1: I want people to step the other way. I want
Speaker 1: us to get back in the collaborative quadrant, like where
Speaker 1: we see each other's worth. We have mutual respect like
Speaker 1: I was talking about between parent and child before. Well,
Speaker 1: you and I can have that, and we can have
Speaker 1: it every time we interact. And if I say something
Speaker 1: that you aren't sure what it means, you could say, hey, Donna,
Speaker 1: can you clarify that that's landing funny for me? And
Speaker 1: I'll be yes. I'd love to clarify that I meant
Speaker 1: yes and then yeah, And then you could say something like,
Speaker 1: you know what, that doesn't hurt as much, But Donna,
Speaker 1: I have a different opinion on that. Can I tell
Speaker 1: you that? And I can say yes, I'm interested in
Speaker 1: your opinion because your opinions have been formed to help
Speaker 1: you live your life. They don't have to inform my
Speaker 1: life right now. They might, and I if I benefit
Speaker 1: from it, I'll be grateful, but I can make room
Speaker 1: for you to be you and have your opinions and
Speaker 1: live the way that makes sense to you, and I
Speaker 1: can actually be happy for you that you figured that out.
Speaker 2: Well, Donna. I mean, we've got so much division going
Speaker 2: on in this world right now, right, So it would
Speaker 2: be nice if more people could appreciate somebody else's opinion,
Speaker 2: because that's what it is, is an opinion. And that's okay.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about ways that low self worth can
Speaker 2: show up in our daily life, and then let's turn
Speaker 2: it around and start figuring out some ways that we
Speaker 2: do get that worth back.
Speaker 1: I would probably call it unpracticed self worth. So again,
Speaker 1: this gets really complicated, and this is all in the book,
Speaker 1: but there are different types of injunctions that affect our
Speaker 1: ability to practice affirming our self worth. And so if
Speaker 1: there are abusive injunctions in place in the family system,
Speaker 1: that's the most severe. Those messages, again, they're subconscious, but
Speaker 1: they're powerful. It's like, don't be you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people get small right they It's one of the
Speaker 2: things we talk about. We get smaller and smaller through
Speaker 2: the actions of somebody else potentially.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, And so then a different kind of injunction
Speaker 1: we call intrusive injunctions. Those are a little more insidious there.
Speaker 1: They kind of slip past our radar because they're the
Speaker 1: same message, don't be you, but it's prettier. It sounds
Speaker 1: like this be a version of you.
Speaker 2: I like, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so heyy you like me if I'm a dancer, Ye,
Speaker 1: you'll like me if I go take voice lessons, you know.
Speaker 1: And so we'll pursue things that make us likable, but
Speaker 1: we won't like ourselves more if it's not rooted in
Speaker 1: our truth and worth. And that's I'm going to tell you.
Speaker 1: The top message of worth conscious theory is that worth
Speaker 1: and truth belong together, and it's my live truth, and
Speaker 1: my worth is never diminished as I am figuring out
Speaker 1: who I am.
Speaker 2: My own live truth, not living for somebody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of things a lot of ways
Speaker 2: people perceive it though, like like self worth and what
Speaker 2: people talk of a lot about the people pleasing overachieving perfectionism. Right,
Speaker 2: So if those are ways that are showing up that
Speaker 2: aren't really you aren't really having self worth. When you're
Speaker 2: doing that, you are seeking the validation or you just
Speaker 2: have so much fear. I mean I could, I could
Speaker 2: say I did all those things, But how can we
Speaker 2: start transitioning into a place where self worth is showing
Speaker 2: up for us.
Speaker 1: Again? It takes practice. One of my favorite he's a
Speaker 1: clinician and theorist, Stephen Hayes. He's basically the father of
Speaker 1: acceptance and commitment theory, and he shifted an ideology that
Speaker 1: I thought was such a brilliant change. He said, practice
Speaker 1: doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
Speaker 2: M I like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. So that's one of my goals
Speaker 1: with worth conscious theory is that I am practicing honoring
Speaker 1: someone's worth a whole session. Through the whole session, from
Speaker 1: the beginning to the end. They're always safe in that room.
Speaker 1: So they learn what that feels like because they haven't
Speaker 1: felt safe enough to live true to themselves and remain worthy.
Speaker 1: That's not been available to them. Yeah, you know, and
Speaker 1: so we have to get a feeling for it first.
Speaker 1: Now we're lucky if we have a few friends that
Speaker 1: honor are worth even when we mess up. That's one
Speaker 1: of the beautiful things of having friendships. And I think
Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons it's a celebrated relationship friendships.
Speaker 1: Shakespeare talked about friendships. You know, Caesar talked about thinking
Speaker 1: he had a friend in Brutus. But still we see
Speaker 1: this reaches far back in multiple societies throughout history, Like
Speaker 1: friendship has always been there. Why it is I think
Speaker 1: the second most powerful relationship we have. And what's beautiful
Speaker 1: about friends that are like minded is we make room
Speaker 1: for each other. We can get upset with each other
Speaker 1: and still say, but you still get to be my friend.
Speaker 1: And for some reason, there are much more restrictive requirements
Speaker 1: in family systems than in many of the friend systems
Speaker 1: that we join.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just remember everyone out there that it's so
Speaker 2: important that you take inventory of who you are surrounding
Speaker 2: yourself with. Yes, Because it's not just about having people
Speaker 2: around you. That's not fulfillment. It's having the right people
Speaker 2: that are lifting you up. Yeah, supporting you, not lifting
Speaker 2: you up right, because that means maybe we're depending on
Speaker 2: someone else to value us.
Speaker 1: Affirming your worth and so one of the transactions we're
Speaker 1: more able to recognize because when I talk about affirming worth,
Speaker 1: people ask the same questions You're asked, how do we
Speaker 1: do that? How do we do that? And so awareness first,
Speaker 1: awareness of what affirms my worth and what doesn't. And
Speaker 1: worth isn't importance. That's such a diluted, detached concept. We
Speaker 1: can get it, and our whole society tells us how
Speaker 1: to get importance, how to get recognized at school and
Speaker 1: at work and in the community. We out to elevate
Speaker 1: ourselves in importance. But with worth, it always includes this
Speaker 1: mutual respect. It's a co created respect that says I
Speaker 1: see your worth and I will not move against it
Speaker 1: with every fiber of my being. It's a different mental
Speaker 1: orientation because with importance and with power, it's you're a
Speaker 1: resource to me until I need to use you, and
Speaker 1: after I use you, I discard you. It's a completely
Speaker 1: different arrangement, and.
Speaker 2: That happens all the time. Yeah, So I just want
Speaker 2: to take a minute because as we're talking about worth,
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, for so many years, I always
Speaker 2: thought that my value was attached to accomplishments. How I
Speaker 2: looked that was a huge one, how people thought of
Speaker 2: me and whether I was getting everything right and just
Speaker 2: life became so exhausting, and I was drinking more and more,
Speaker 2: and that's how I was coping, and I thought I
Speaker 2: was broken when I realized I wasn't broken, and I
Speaker 2: wrote a book called wake Up You're Not Broken, a
Speaker 2: companion for your first thirty days of sobriety. So for
Speaker 2: all those out there that that are coping in this way,
Speaker 2: I see you, and it's normal. It's very normal. But
Speaker 2: we can make the choice to stop, to surrender and
Speaker 2: take action like this daily action that Donna and I
Speaker 2: are talking about. So let's just take one minute to
Speaker 2: see a little more about the book and we'll be
Speaker 2: right back. Are you in the first thirty days of
Speaker 2: sobriety or wondering if now is your time to start? Hi?
Speaker 2: I'm Marcy Hopkins and I wrote wake Up You're Not
Speaker 2: Broken just for you. It's a real raw guide to
Speaker 2: those first thirty days, what no one tells you, what
Speaker 2: you will feel, and how to keep going. This isn't
Speaker 2: about perfection, It's about progress. Or to your copy now
Speaker 2: on Amazon. Remember, you're not alone, You're not broken, You're
Speaker 2: waking up all right. Thank you all for being here,
Speaker 2: for those that are watching, for those that are listening,
Speaker 2: We're so grateful you're here. And oh my goodness, talking
Speaker 2: about self worth. Donna and I just I am so
Speaker 2: appreciating the conversation, and I'm resonating so much for all
Speaker 2: that you have shared. One of the things that you
Speaker 2: shared with me prior to this conversation is that if
Speaker 2: it's and actually you have brought this up, but I
Speaker 2: want to talk about it a little more. That if
Speaker 2: it's not safe to be yourself, vulnerability becomes dangerous. And
Speaker 2: I talk about vulnerability a lot because that was very
Speaker 2: hard for me to get vulnerable and ask for help
Speaker 2: because you feel like maybe you're losing in some way
Speaker 2: and you're not strong enough. But I'd love to hear
Speaker 2: what it is that you mean by that.
Speaker 1: Well, if you are already afraid that you have no
Speaker 1: worth and you've built a life. So if I use
Speaker 1: my little hand model, here's worth and here's conditions. But
Speaker 1: some people, because of all the conditions, they forget this
Speaker 1: is here. They build a life outside of it, and
Speaker 1: they get whatever they can get, so they perform. Right,
Speaker 1: you were talking about being beautiful, right, being perfect, So
Speaker 1: any counterfeit will get you over here, that you live
Speaker 1: a life in pursuit of that counterfeit, right, And it's
Speaker 1: a counterfeit to worth. And so when you're living over
Speaker 1: here and you feel so unfulfilled in every desperate pursuit
Speaker 1: of this life. Being more vulnerable makes you think people
Speaker 1: are going to see this doesn't work. I am trying
Speaker 1: as hard as I can to make my life work
Speaker 1: using all this stuff the world has given me as options,
Speaker 1: and if I'm more vulnerable, they're going to see what
Speaker 1: failure I am. So that's why vulnerable is scary. What
Speaker 1: what real vulnerability? What real vulnerability does is yet it
Speaker 1: makes it see that. But then we say, there's a
Speaker 1: path from that to this. This is there, It is
Speaker 1: waiting for you. It's always been there. Sometimes I find
Speaker 1: myself apologizing to clients. I'm so sorry the world has
Speaker 1: not helped you affirm this your whole life. I'm so
Speaker 1: sorry your family system didn't know how to honor this
Speaker 1: and reaffirm this. But we're going to start.
Speaker 2: You're making me cry right now, the word yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean that's just really powerful to hear that, and
Speaker 2: and it's and it's I think, you know, like for
Speaker 2: me coming from abandonment a day and my family sexual abuse,
Speaker 2: all of those things, it's just so hard because you
Speaker 2: just build so many walls up and you just to
Speaker 2: bring those down you're so afraid. I think you're going
Speaker 2: to get hurt and need to see you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1: You said bring those down because we talk about the pillars, well,
Speaker 1: there are imitation pillar pillars we're building all the time.
Speaker 1: We're building our lives, so we have awareness of something,
Speaker 1: we respect, something or someone, we have some self esteem.
Speaker 1: It goes up and down, and we have confidence in
Speaker 1: some things. But if it's not on a foundation of worth,
Speaker 1: those pillars can come down. And that's that other vulnerability piece.
Speaker 1: Like so I showed it to you this way that
Speaker 1: I'll give you a visual of it a different way.
Speaker 1: Sometimes when you go to therapy, the therapist is helping
Speaker 1: you take blocks down and you're like, I have spent.
Speaker 3: Those pillars, like you know, thirty forty fifty years, like
Speaker 3: please don't take them down, And you're like, well, but
Speaker 3: we could use these blocks over here, Like what if
Speaker 3: we build those Let's.
Speaker 1: Take the ones that work and let's start reassembling them
Speaker 1: on a foundation of birthright, self worth, and let's see
Speaker 1: how much more solid that feels.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: One of the things I have this visual in my
Speaker 2: head my last day of drinking, like everything that I
Speaker 2: had built up on my rocky foundation, my uneven foundation
Speaker 2: from you know, all that happened in my childhood just
Speaker 2: came crashing down. And while that's so scary, it has
Speaker 2: allowed me to rebuild that structure in my life on
Speaker 2: a solid foundation. Good, and so I'm not afraid of
Speaker 2: it falling down again. Of course it always could, right,
Speaker 2: life can happen, but it won't.
Speaker 1: It won't fall the way it did the first time
Speaker 1: because you're building on something more solid. And that's really
Speaker 1: the goal is to figure out what we were given
Speaker 1: that wasn't very solid, and that we built our lives
Speaker 1: on a foundation that just wasn't going to hold our
Speaker 1: whole life. It was going to crack and crumble, right,
Speaker 1: But then keep the blocks that work, keep the building
Speaker 1: blocks that still makes sense to you, but yes, put
Speaker 1: them on a more solid foundation. That's lovely. I'm actually
Speaker 1: very happy for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, thank you, And I love what you've
Speaker 2: said because we are so here. But what I've allowed
Speaker 2: myself to do is come here, come and open up
Speaker 2: my heart and and think from this brain instead of
Speaker 2: this brain. Yeah yeah, yeah. So for someone that's out
Speaker 2: there right now that they've spent those years proving, performing
Speaker 2: and people pleasing that we were kind of talking about before.
Speaker 2: But where do they begin to start rebuilding? I mean,
Speaker 2: is there something that could start to do today to
Speaker 2: help them with their sense of worth? And then of
Speaker 2: course seek help more from someone like you or through
Speaker 2: your book.
Speaker 1: Well, this really simple exercise that I do is I
Speaker 1: take the word worthless. I write it on a dry
Speaker 1: erase board. When I hold that up in front of
Speaker 1: someone that's feeling that way, that tears come to their eyes.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they start crying because they are so afraid that's true.
Speaker 1: And then I'll take a marker and I'll draw a
Speaker 1: line down the middle, so i separate the word worth
Speaker 1: from less and I'll say worthless than? What if you're worthless?
Speaker 1: Are you worth less than? And that shifts. There's a
Speaker 1: different thought that happens there, which is, oh, oh you
Speaker 1: mean I can kind of create compartments. And I'm like yeah,
Speaker 1: because I'm going to ask you some questions. Do you
Speaker 1: think anybody is worth less than kindness? And I always
Speaker 1: get to, oh, do you think anyone is worth less
Speaker 1: than compassion? Than honesty? You know what? What are? What
Speaker 1: is anybody worth less than? And these lovely people I
Speaker 1: feel so privileged to have worked with the people I've
Speaker 1: worked with. They know, they know what they won't do
Speaker 1: to someone else, and even if they have, they feel
Speaker 1: bad about it. Yeah, I have been dishonest with someone,
Speaker 1: but they weren't. They didn't deserve it, they weren't worth that, right,
Speaker 1: I'll say, Okay, So then let's start looking at what
Speaker 1: you're worth, because you just named what everybody's worth. Honesty, consistency, compassion,
Speaker 1: There's there are so many good words. I let them
Speaker 1: choose the words at a certain point, like take over,
Speaker 1: like tell me what what? What is everybody worth having?
Speaker 1: You know, safety, some kind of human warmth, you know,
Speaker 1: decency that there's some lovely words that come forward. And
Speaker 1: then we start from there. Okay, let's take the words
Speaker 1: that you've come up with today and let's start making
Speaker 1: sure those exist in your head for you. Because this
Speaker 1: is the dialogue. We memorize how we were parented, and
Speaker 1: then we parent the inner child, and that's where our
Speaker 1: worth starts, right with how we were parented. So then
Speaker 1: we start being unkind, disrespectful, unfair, dishonest with our own self.
Speaker 1: And then I believe this part of us, I think
Speaker 1: of my inner child as being five, and I think
Speaker 1: sometimes she goes, hey, stop it, Like I don't like that,
Speaker 1: Like if a five year old could really be robust
Speaker 1: in their reaction to a parent. Hey, yeah, that's mean.
Speaker 1: Don't say that, right. And I listen to her if
Speaker 1: any critical thing comes into my head, and I say,
Speaker 1: like done, and oh my gosh, what's your deal? Like
Speaker 1: this tone of voice, you know, sometimes it's been when
Speaker 1: I was younger, it was harsher. It's just like, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, what's wrong with you? And then now I
Speaker 1: let that inner five year old talk back from her worth,
Speaker 1: she'll be like, hey be nice. Mm hm, why not
Speaker 1: be nice? Yeah, everything we need to stay say, be
Speaker 1: delivered in a nice way.
Speaker 2: I think, so yeah yeah. And one of the things,
Speaker 2: like recognizing perception. There's a method I talk about called
Speaker 2: the care method, asking for help without guilt, reinforcing your boundaries,
Speaker 2: healthy boundaries, and embracing your works. So I just I
Speaker 2: love this conversation because it's so vital for us to
Speaker 2: create a positive life for ourselves. And Donna, your work
Speaker 2: is amazing and you're helping so many people, and I
Speaker 2: just I love your energy and your heart. I could
Speaker 2: see it. So can you tell us where we can
Speaker 2: find your new book, Understanding Self Worth and learn more
Speaker 2: about you and your work?
Speaker 1: Well? Thank you. Can I show you the book? I
Speaker 1: keep it? Please there. It is Understanding Self Worth, a
Speaker 1: guide to worth conscious theory and psychotherapeutic practice. It is
Speaker 1: written to help mental health professionals in any field work
Speaker 1: with their clients using this model. We do have clients
Speaker 1: that have asked to read it, and so we put
Speaker 1: a statement in the front that if if you're a
Speaker 1: client and you start reading this book, please please please
Speaker 1: have mental health professional that you're working with to help
Speaker 1: you unpack some things, because it could trigger some unfinished
Speaker 1: business and we just want you to have the support
Speaker 1: you need. So the book is more in an academic tone,
Speaker 1: and doctor Chris Brown is my co author and that
Speaker 1: is her area of expertise. She's an excellent academic writer.
Speaker 1: She's been published multiple times. I'm grateful for her assistance
Speaker 1: in helping me bring this forward in the most responsible
Speaker 1: way that we could. And then for me, you know,
Speaker 1: I've been in private practice for over twenty years. I
Speaker 1: noticed this gap in treatment very early on. I pursue
Speaker 1: training in trauma, so I'm a certified trauma professional, and
Speaker 1: even though trauma sometimes touches on this, I just felt
Speaker 1: like there were still some things that I could flesh out.
Speaker 1: So I just continued reading and learning and understanding self
Speaker 1: worth and worth consciousness is the goal. We can be
Speaker 1: self conscious or we can be worth conscious. And prior
Speaker 1: to me naming that term worth conscious, all I saw
Speaker 1: out there was self conscious or neutral, and I didn't
Speaker 1: think that was a very attractive shift. Self conscious or
Speaker 1: just not self gut like that. So I wanted to
Speaker 1: give people something more nurturing. So worth consciousness is the goal,
Speaker 1: and you learn how to do that in the book,
Speaker 1: but again it's a more technical read. I do have
Speaker 1: a rule for all my clients whenever I have them
Speaker 1: get a book, I'll say, open it up, look at
Speaker 1: the chapters, and just read the one that resonates with you.
Speaker 1: You don't have to read the whole thing. Start with
Speaker 1: what resonates with you. That might be all you need
Speaker 1: that week or that month, and then go back to
Speaker 1: it and look again.
Speaker 2: I love it. I love that. Well, thank you again
Speaker 2: so much for coming on Wake Up with Marcy. I
Speaker 2: really appreciate it. Donna.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2: Well for all of you out there, if this conversation
Speaker 2: has resonated with you, please make sure you like common
Speaker 2: and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it.
Speaker 2: Because your worth isn't something you earn, it's not something
Speaker 2: you prove, it's not something someone else can give you
Speaker 2: or gets to give you. It's something that's been yours
Speaker 2: all along. So just know that no matter what you've
Speaker 2: been through, no matter what your mistakes have been, no
Speaker 2: matter how lost you may have felt, you are not broken.
Speaker 2: You are becoming, and it is possible to wake up
Speaker 2: to your worth and you are worthy. So I will
Speaker 2: see you next week with an all new episode, a
Speaker 2: brand new episode, and I'm so grateful you have been
Speaker 2: with us today. I hope you have an amazing week.
Speaker 2: Bye bye