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<v Speaker 1>Ask not what your country can do for you and

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<v Speaker 1>what you can do for your country.

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<v Speaker 2>Either you were with us or you were with the terrorists.

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<v Speaker 2>Was he betting that they would get him or they

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't get him? It sounds like he was betting on

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<v Speaker 2>his removal from office up a euro when he's like

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<v Speaker 2>Peter's betting on his own jam and it's a little

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<v Speaker 2>like Peter Rose. I'll look into it. It's the Ricochet

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<v Speaker 2>Podcast with Stephen Hayward Charles Cook. I'm James Bonicce. So

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to talk to Elio Shapiro about all things legal.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh trust me, it's fun. Let say Rosel's a podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome everybody. It's the Ricochet Podcast, number seven hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>eighty six. I'm James loloxs in Minneapolis on a beautiful

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<v Speaker 2>spring day. The flowered trees are blooming and Stephen Hayward

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<v Speaker 2>I assume as in California, Charles C. W. Cook in Florida.

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<v Speaker 2>We span the continents, gentlemen, how are you today? Okay, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a very British ant. It could be worse, that's okay,

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<v Speaker 2>right right, compared to what could be at could be

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<v Speaker 2>a rabbit hedgehog above. Let's get right to it. Jerry

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<v Speaker 2>Mandering one of those things that people seemed to whenever

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<v Speaker 2>somebody talks about it and say, we again jerry matter.

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<v Speaker 2>The Republicans are trying to jerry mander. Somebody always posts

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<v Speaker 2>a picture of Illinois, which has these districts that resemble

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<v Speaker 2>no natural shape on Earth and seem almost consciously carved

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<v Speaker 2>out block by block to achieve the desired effect. But

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<v Speaker 2>Virginia is the latest. They have a sorde of controversy

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<v Speaker 2>about it. So who wants to explain to everybody what

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<v Speaker 2>to think about that?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'll go first, because I've been living with the

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<v Speaker 1>jerrymandering wars out here in California since the nineteen eighties,

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<v Speaker 1>if not sooner than that, and I always love it.

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<v Speaker 1>The double standard showing up once again with the left.

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<v Speaker 1>They ruthlessly jerrymandered California in the nineteen eighties, and Republicans

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<v Speaker 1>tried twice to run ballot measures to overturn it and

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<v Speaker 1>failed badly both times, and it then became a scamp

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<v Speaker 1>to democracy when Republicans got good at it. Well, guess what,

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly Democrats are good at it again, and we're not

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<v Speaker 1>hearing that anymore. So, not just Illinois, but you may

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<v Speaker 1>know that the northeast the New England States, Republicans get

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<v Speaker 1>about forty percent of the net House vote in the

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<v Speaker 1>New England States and have zero House seats. So how's

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<v Speaker 1>that representation. And then in Virginia they're going to go

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<v Speaker 1>what it's going to go from five to four to nine,

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<v Speaker 1>eight to one, something like that. And one of the districts,

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<v Speaker 1>never mind the salamanders of Illinois, James, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>districts in Virginia is being called the Lobster district because

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<v Speaker 1>it stretches out from Fairfax County, which is now very

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<v Speaker 1>democratic because it's government employees and consultants and beltweight bandits,

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<v Speaker 1>and it stretches out into some of the rural counties

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<v Speaker 1>to dilute the Republican vote. So the lobster clause are

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<v Speaker 1>kind of an appropriate metaphor for what they've done there.

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<v Speaker 1>And we'll just have to see if the court challenges

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<v Speaker 1>get anywhere. I have no idea whether they will or not.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm just sitting back and saying, and finally, last

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<v Speaker 1>lesson which Charles will make if I don't. Republicans started this,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, Donald Trump thought it'd be a good idea

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<v Speaker 1>to have Texas use its redistricting power, and the Democrats said,

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<v Speaker 1>oh yeah, well we can do that too, And it

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<v Speaker 1>looks like they're going to come out ahead in this

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<v Speaker 1>this year's skirmish.

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<v Speaker 2>Charles, I'll bet you're one of those people who doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>believe it, doesn't understand that these measures are essential to

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<v Speaker 2>preserving our democracy a democracy. Once our democracy is restored

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<v Speaker 2>and the court is packed and there's permanent majorities and

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<v Speaker 2>the rest of it, we can make sure that the

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<v Speaker 2>fashionst nightmare that we've been living there for the last

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<v Speaker 2>two years or so, it can never be repeated. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>isn't this like just making sure that the governance of

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<v Speaker 2>post war Germany never provides for the opportunity for a

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<v Speaker 2>Hitler to rise again. I suppose you're going to make

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<v Speaker 2>some sort of argument that our democracy is actually not

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<v Speaker 2>served by all this.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, our democracy, it means the Democratic Party. I basically

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<v Speaker 3>agree with everything Steve said. I'm pretty sangument about jerry mandering.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it is a political exercise. I don't think

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<v Speaker 3>you can abolish politics. The notion that we could hand

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<v Speaker 3>over control to independent commissions. I think would go about

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<v Speaker 3>as well for Republicans as others supposedly independent organizations usually do.

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<v Speaker 3>I had Shawn Trending on my podcast this week and

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<v Speaker 3>I asked him about this, and he essentially said, both

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<v Speaker 3>independent commissions and computers.

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<v Speaker 4>The other proposed solution are garbage in garbage out.

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<v Speaker 3>That is to say, all of the political decisions that

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<v Speaker 3>you have to make in the process of jerrymandering you

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<v Speaker 3>have to make if you hand over the process to

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<v Speaker 3>an independent commission or a computer, so you can't abolish

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<v Speaker 3>the politics of it. The only thing I would add

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<v Speaker 3>is I think Steve's right, the Republicans did lose this.

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<v Speaker 4>I think it's a short term lass.

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<v Speaker 3>If you look at that Virginia jerrymander, I am of

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<v Speaker 3>the view that it's probably a dummy mander, as the

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<v Speaker 3>Texas one maybe as well. The trend in total not

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<v Speaker 3>this year where I think Republicans will have a disastrous midterm,

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<v Speaker 3>but over the next five years it's probably going to

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<v Speaker 3>yield a Republican win because you've got the Virginia gerimander,

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<v Speaker 3>which will backfire, and if it doesn't return to the

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<v Speaker 3>status quante in twenty thirty, you've got the census of

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<v Speaker 3>twenty thirty, which is not only going to finally count.

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<v Speaker 4>The population properly, but.

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<v Speaker 3>Incorporate all of the changes that should have been made

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<v Speaker 3>in twenty twenty but weren't. That census was a catastrophe.

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<v Speaker 3>Every single controversial question went against the Republicans. Amazing, and

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<v Speaker 3>you've also got the Texas gerrymander which started this. But

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<v Speaker 3>we'll still be there. And so I just think that

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<v Speaker 3>in four or five years, the crowing that you're hearing

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<v Speaker 3>from the left may seem a little premature.

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<v Speaker 5>Now.

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<v Speaker 3>That's not to say the Republicans aren't playing hardball here too.

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<v Speaker 3>They are, but jerrymandering is hardball, and so I just

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<v Speaker 3>have very little time for those who are trying to

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<v Speaker 3>turn it into something else. It's been there right from

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<v Speaker 3>the beginning of the republic. There's no way of avoiding it,

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<v Speaker 3>and we should just grow up.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there's something interesting you said in there that's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of tangential to this or not related at all. That

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<v Speaker 2>you believe it's going to be a blood bath. Is

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<v Speaker 2>that because people are I mean, midterms are midterms, but

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<v Speaker 2>the Democratic platform is not a popular one, at least

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<v Speaker 2>as they're talking about it now. And we have better

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<v Speaker 2>border security, lowered drug prices, the economy is not cratering,

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<v Speaker 2>Or do you think it's gas prices? I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>think entirely that people could fail to make the distinction

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<v Speaker 2>between gas being high because of regulatory prohibitions and drilling

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<v Speaker 2>and gas being high because we're engaged in a high

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<v Speaker 2>stakes geopolitical contest in order to control a certain regionally

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<v Speaker 2>the world. Maybe people make that distinction, maybe they don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it just gas? Is gas's three seventy nine. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not voting for try Why.

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<v Speaker 4>How long have you got James?

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<v Speaker 3>Is such a long answer, but I'll try and give

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<v Speaker 3>you the back of the envelope answer. First, I think

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<v Speaker 3>people are tired of Trump. He's been the main character

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<v Speaker 3>in our politics for eleven years. Second, I think Trump's

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<v Speaker 3>made some mistakes tariffs. I think going into Iran without

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<v Speaker 3>telling anyone was a mistake. Here's the main reason. There are,

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<v Speaker 3>of course, great presidents in history who make a difference,

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<v Speaker 3>and sometimes that difference is economic. The Roaring twenties, I

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<v Speaker 3>think were the result of policy in many ways. The

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<v Speaker 3>shift in the nineteen eighties was the result of policy.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not being a nihilist and saying nothing matters. But

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of the time, it's really much easier to

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<v Speaker 3>screw things up than make them good. And yet we

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<v Speaker 3>have presidents who seem willing to tie themselves to the

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<v Speaker 3>vicissitudes of the economy. And I think people are somewhat

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<v Speaker 3>wrong on this economy. I think it's much better than

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<v Speaker 3>people think, but they don't like it. The best case

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<v Speaker 3>I've heard in favor of the economy is, well, it's

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<v Speaker 3>not that much different than it was at the end

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<v Speaker 3>of the Biden years.

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<v Speaker 4>People didn't like that.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I think that Trump, because he's such a personality,

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<v Speaker 3>basically promised that he would fix everything.

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<v Speaker 4>That was his pitch.

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<v Speaker 3>He said, again, I alone can fix People believe they

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<v Speaker 3>were going to go back to twenty nineteen when the

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<v Speaker 3>economy was fantastic, and we haven't got there. And I

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<v Speaker 3>don't think that's necessarily Trump's fault. There are a few

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<v Speaker 3>things that are, but I think he suggested otherwise, and

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<v Speaker 3>therefore he's been bitten by the same bug Joe Biden.

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<v Speaker 3>Biden promised that he would fix things. Biden then proceeded

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<v Speaker 3>to make things horrible by signing off on a massive

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<v Speaker 3>two trillion dollar spending program that caused inflation, but we're

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<v Speaker 3>not in a golden age, despite Trump saying so. And

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<v Speaker 3>I think the Republicans are going to get bitten because

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<v Speaker 3>Trump has now been around a long time and people

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<v Speaker 3>aren't happy with how things are going. And I think,

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<v Speaker 3>as as simple as that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting. I don't think he takes up as much

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<v Speaker 2>oxygen as he used to, at least not to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Or maybe I've just been so preoccupied and busy that

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<v Speaker 2>i haven't noticed. Stephen, do you agree with Charles back

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<v Speaker 2>of the envelope and it was a legal pad legal,

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<v Speaker 2>that's fine, that's what we want here. We don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to be scanned and quick. We want to be detailed

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<v Speaker 2>and meaningful and all the rest.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, although I'll give this caveat. I mean, all those

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<v Speaker 1>reasons are correct. I'll at a couple Residents in their

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<v Speaker 1>second term usually have the worst midterm outcomes historically, although

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<v Speaker 1>that's been scrabbled a lot the last twenty years. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>the first term goes worse, so it's a little unclear.

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<v Speaker 1>But second, this could be a rerun of twenty twenty two, when,

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<v Speaker 1>as Charles points out, things were really bad. Inflation was

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<v Speaker 1>soaring all the polls show Republicans are going to roll

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<v Speaker 1>and they underperformed. Let us remember and Henry Olsen thinks,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, Henry's my guru, and all these things

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<v Speaker 1>that could repeat itself this time for the Democrats. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>having said that, my last point is this will shock people,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe even Charles for a moment until he thinks about it.

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<v Speaker 1>I kind of hope that it is a disaster for

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<v Speaker 1>Republicans for this reason. I don't root for a disaster

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<v Speaker 1>for Republicans on the merits, but it will make Democrats

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<v Speaker 1>over confident. They will come out of it thinking, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't have any problems we need to fix, when

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<v Speaker 1>their party is more underwater than it's ever been with

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<v Speaker 1>the public on general approval ratings, and they will nominate

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<v Speaker 1>someone crazy in twenty twenty eight and get clobbered. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's the upside of a Republican shlacking in November. So

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<v Speaker 1>in a certain long run point of view, and here

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<v Speaker 1>I'm what Charles, we should think for the long run always,

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<v Speaker 1>I think this is some ways a no lose outcome,

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<v Speaker 1>even though the sting will be very sharp in the

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<v Speaker 1>short run. If it's a.

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<v Speaker 2>Debacle interesting, yes, I would rather get the presidency back

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<v Speaker 2>and have power and go to agenda and the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of it, and spend the next four years then undoing

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<v Speaker 2>what might be done in the next two years after

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<v Speaker 2>the mid terms. I mean, nobody wants exactly what as

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<v Speaker 2>you're saying, they're underwater. Nobody wants what they're selling. Nobody.

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<v Speaker 2>New York may Park Slope may feel awfully darned proud

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<v Speaker 2>of itself for giving them them Mandami, but I don't

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<v Speaker 2>feel that surge amongst the national moderate Republican Democrats. Just don't.

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<v Speaker 2>But they're going to get democratic socialism, whether they like

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<v Speaker 2>it or not. Interesting story this week there was a

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<v Speaker 2>member of the Delta for I think it was Delta

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<v Speaker 2>Special Forces guy who was canned unceremoniously because he had

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<v Speaker 2>bet in a market on the likelihood of Maduro being

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<v Speaker 2>snatched from power, and he made a lot of money

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<v Speaker 2>on it. He made four hundred thousand dollars on it.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you see this story and do you think, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, these guys are good at their job and

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<v Speaker 2>they're a precious few. We really really shouldn't lose them.

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<v Speaker 2>I rather an appallingly stupid thing to have done, but

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<v Speaker 2>it certainly did catch my attention and twin that with

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<v Speaker 2>something else. There is in Britain a move amongst their

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<v Speaker 2>special forces to quit because they don't believe that anybody's

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<v Speaker 2>going to have their back. They believe that they're going

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<v Speaker 2>to be held up on by human rights lawyers. We're

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<v Speaker 2>going to go back and look at their action after

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<v Speaker 2>action reports and say that this was wrong, you shouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>have done this, and bring them up in the hag.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems two different approaches. The robust American approach is

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<v Speaker 2>to go to the casino and bet on the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that you're going to go in with guns and secret

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<v Speaker 2>weapons to get a guy. And the British version is

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<v Speaker 2>to quietly retire because you are fear You are fearful

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<v Speaker 2>of a government that doesn't have your back. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>sure there's anything to say about that except to ask

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<v Speaker 2>you if there's anything to say about that.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I'm sorry, I really take no pleasure in saying this.

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<v Speaker 3>Ships but isn't that just emblematic of Britain right now?

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<v Speaker 3>Special forces have a real new plan of what's that

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<v Speaker 3>to quit?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean.

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<v Speaker 3>That's just where things are on the island. It's just

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<v Speaker 3>it's depressing. I kind of love this guy who definitely

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<v Speaker 3>should have been caned, by the way, the special Forces

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<v Speaker 3>guy in the US. But I do think that's a

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<v Speaker 3>fundamentally American story.

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<v Speaker 2>It absolutely is, It absolutely is. Oh yeah, I hope

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<v Speaker 2>he had a big shrewd screwed in the corner of

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<v Speaker 2>his mouth. And he was when he was doing it too.

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<v Speaker 5>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>I remember someone asked Franklin Roosevelt why he appointed Joseph

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<v Speaker 1>Kennedy to be the first chairman of the Securities and

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<v Speaker 1>Exchange Commission, which was created in the mid thirties, and

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<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt's answer was, it takes a thief to catch a thief.

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<v Speaker 1>And I just do these thought experiments about how Joe

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<v Speaker 1>Kennedy would have played the futures market or the prediction

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<v Speaker 1>markets if he was around today. Look, I mean the

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<v Speaker 1>old story Ronald Reagan's you know, the nine most scary

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<v Speaker 1>words rhyme for the federal government, and I'm here to help.

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<v Speaker 1>I think in Europe and also in America, especially Europe,

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<v Speaker 1>the three most fearsome words are human rights lawyer and

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<v Speaker 1>of course, who does Britain have as a prime minister

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<v Speaker 1>now a human rights lawyer? And so it's not surprising

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<v Speaker 1>that you're seeing this insanity go on. And then of course, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>the prediction market sky. His mistake there was being greedy, right,

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<v Speaker 1>You can make a little bit of money if you're

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<v Speaker 1>subtle and quiet about it and don't get greedy. But

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<v Speaker 1>my hunch is, and we'll learn more I guess is

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<v Speaker 1>that's maybe the only bet he ever placed, and so

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<v Speaker 1>it really sticks out like a sore thumb when suddenly

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<v Speaker 1>you make a killing on the first bet you've ever made.

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<v Speaker 1>And oh, by the way, you were on the helicopter

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<v Speaker 1>or wherever he was.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Well, it depends on what he bet. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>if you bet in the likelihood of a duro going,

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<v Speaker 2>that's one thing. But if his bet consisted of the

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<v Speaker 2>strike package will approach at three am and a neutralizing

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<v Speaker 2>force will then use the suppression he actually laid out

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<v Speaker 2>what they were going to do, I can see. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that would be a bit of a p but it's

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<v Speaker 2>not a problem to have our next guest, and we're

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<v Speaker 2>happy to have him. We welcome I Lea Shapiro. Now

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<v Speaker 2>he's a senior fellow and director of Constitutional Studies at

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<v Speaker 2>the Manhappen Institute. Contributing editor of City Journal, of our Favorites.

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<v Speaker 2>He runs Shapiro's Gavel substat and he's the author of

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty Supreme Disorder, Judicial Nominations in the Politics of

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<v Speaker 2>America's highest Court, and last year's Lawless The Miseducation of

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<v Speaker 2>American Elites. Welcome, good to be with you.

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<v Speaker 5>It's a great group. I'm I think this is my

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<v Speaker 5>first time with the full compliment, not not just me

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<v Speaker 5>and Steve drinking his wine.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I've never got the opportunity to drink Steve's wine,

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<v Speaker 2>but perhaps that is will avail itself some time. Elites

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<v Speaker 2>we loved, We love those elites, especially in they're misbehaving

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<v Speaker 2>and being miseducated in the rest of it. And we

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<v Speaker 2>saw a perfect example of it this week where that

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<v Speaker 2>it was a UCLA law school. Right, I think some

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<v Speaker 2>high spirited youth disrupted a federal Federalist Society event in

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<v Speaker 2>in old days, you'd like to think they would have

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<v Speaker 2>been bodily carried out, but no, they prove their willingness

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<v Speaker 2>to debate ideas by insisting that the ideas they don't

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<v Speaker 2>like should be shut down, not seasonable.

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<v Speaker 5>Like, what I don't get is okay, fine, you should

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<v Speaker 5>be civil and I, you know, not use actual arguments

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<v Speaker 5>and whatnot. But why even attend, Like if there was

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<v Speaker 5>someone who at my law school whose views I just

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<v Speaker 5>didn't like, I just wouldn't go, Like, I just don't

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<v Speaker 5>understand the impetus to sit there and to come and

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<v Speaker 5>just holding up signs that make you look idiotic.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, first of all, you're probably ill, you feeling

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<v Speaker 1>like you have some company today, so listeners should know

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<v Speaker 1>or they might remember that you were shouted down at

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<v Speaker 1>Hastings Law School what's six seven years ago? By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not called hater, you're.

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<v Speaker 5>Dead naming them, Steve, it's you see law SF Rings

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<v Speaker 5>had turned out did some things that are now considered

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<v Speaker 5>politically incorrect.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah right, just like Bold at Bold, Haul at Berkeley.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, I can't understand what's wrong with UCLA

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<v Speaker 1>and Stanford when believe it or not? Berkeley? Right, John,

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<v Speaker 1>You and I had you to speak at Berkeley shortly

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<v Speaker 1>after you've been shouted down Hastings, and it went off fine,

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<v Speaker 1>even though you got it.

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<v Speaker 5>There was a plane closed cop who blended in and

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<v Speaker 5>I even said a statement against the recent antisemitic resolution

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<v Speaker 5>that they I mean it was and John you was there.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean it was, but nothing. And I tell you all,

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<v Speaker 5>that wasn't my only time. I've spoken to Berkeley probably

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<v Speaker 5>half a dozen times in my life and nothing. It's

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<v Speaker 5>always these random other places, right that have these run ins.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, one difference is I think you may know, is

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<v Speaker 1>that you know our dean at Berkeley, law Irwin Chemerinsky,

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<v Speaker 1>who's very far out to the left on constitutional questions,

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<v Speaker 1>but on this question. He put out a message to

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<v Speaker 1>students after your appearance at Hastings saying essentially, you do

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<v Speaker 1>that here, there will be consequences. And he said that

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<v Speaker 1>again after Stanford. He likes the thumb as nose of

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<v Speaker 1>those other schools, and so he really does mean it.

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<v Speaker 1>And so you know, we had you, we had Heather

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<v Speaker 1>McDonald who had a lot of upset students, but they

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<v Speaker 1>did not interrupt or disrupt it. We did have a

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<v Speaker 1>problem with Simka Rothman from Israel, where I think they

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<v Speaker 1>The point is is that it's not hard to stop this.

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<v Speaker 1>All you have to do is say, there will be

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<v Speaker 1>visibly Jewish.

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<v Speaker 5>See I was just speaking words, but he was doing

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<v Speaker 5>physically right.

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<v Speaker 2>You stand used to being visibly Jewish? Right, Well, you say,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean you, in your sort of who cares what

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<v Speaker 2>happens to society way, say well, I just wouldn't go.

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<v Speaker 2>They are going because these ideas must be shut down

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<v Speaker 2>and kept from being disseminated. These are the ideas that

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<v Speaker 2>will lead to the end of our democracy and the

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<v Speaker 2>rise of the booth that trod's eternally on our face. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean they have a moral duty to do these

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<v Speaker 2>sorts of things.

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<v Speaker 5>That seems to be the as I paraphrased to circle

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<v Speaker 5>back to Bill Crystal, as I phrased one of his

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<v Speaker 5>recent tweets, we have to burn down the village in

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<v Speaker 5>order to save it. It's and look, it's it's particularly disturbing.

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<v Speaker 5>This is why I wrote my book, my last book, Lawless,

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<v Speaker 5>that that this is happening at law schools.

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<v Speaker 4>Right.

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<v Speaker 5>If if an English or a sociology, let alone a

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<v Speaker 5>blank studies department goes off the rails, I mean, that's

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<v Speaker 5>sad for the accumulation of human knowledge and pedagogy and whatnot.

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<v Speaker 5>But law schools graduate the gatekeepers of our legal and

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<v Speaker 5>political institutions. So if certain points of view are anathema

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<v Speaker 5>of certain topics simply can't be discussed because they're unsafe

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<v Speaker 5>for triggering that we got a huge problem with the

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<v Speaker 5>foundations of our society.

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<v Speaker 2>If tossed it to terms in just a second. But

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to say, this is because how much of

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<v Speaker 2>this is due to critical theory, because it's infected journalism

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<v Speaker 2>as well, where you have young stats my profession or was,

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<v Speaker 2>you have students coming out who are saying that the

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<v Speaker 2>old standard of objectivity was just a way by which

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<v Speaker 2>the old forms and systems asserted their power and perpetuity.

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<v Speaker 2>That to be objective is to lend credence to ideas

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<v Speaker 2>that ought not to be circulated and should not be

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<v Speaker 2>considered to be on the same level or plane as

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<v Speaker 2>the good ideas. And a lot of that comes from

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<v Speaker 2>the same sort of deconstruction that has infected nearly everything

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<v Speaker 2>that passes through the academic strength, he said, making a

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<v Speaker 2>point not necessarily a question.

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<v Speaker 1>You went to Chicago, which I don't think was ever

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<v Speaker 1>infected with critical legal theory, which Harvard was in the nineties.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I went there in a particular time. I was

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<v Speaker 5>there two thousand to two thousand and three. We had

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<v Speaker 5>certainly heard of not just critical race theory, but critical

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<v Speaker 5>legal studies, all of that stuff. It had been something

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<v Speaker 5>from the eighties and early nineties that had been you know,

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<v Speaker 5>a curiosity and then was relegated to some niche corner

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<v Speaker 5>of the sociology department or maybe one professor or something

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<v Speaker 5>like that. But then, you know, sometimes it feels, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>it's been almost twenty five years since I graduated law school,

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<v Speaker 5>and sometimes that feels like just yesterday. Sometimes it feels

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<v Speaker 5>like a long time ago on a planet far far away,

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<v Speaker 5>because we have had the crits come back, and that

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<v Speaker 5>is the ideological bit, but that's what everyone likes to

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<v Speaker 5>talk about. That's the red meat. But it's not just

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<v Speaker 5>the ideology. It's also the bureaucracy and the leadership. And

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<v Speaker 5>it's those failures and those change that have really made

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<v Speaker 5>it an inflection point and led to the illiberal takeover

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<v Speaker 5>of Higher Ed. Not just the latest iteration of the

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<v Speaker 5>decades old conservative complaint about the the hippies taking over

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<v Speaker 5>the faculty lounge. Right, those hippies, the Berkeley free speech

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<v Speaker 5>movement in the sixties would now be considered retrograde white

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<v Speaker 5>supremacists by today's radicals. And you know, that's not just

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<v Speaker 5>faculty bias, although there is a generational shift of you know,

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<v Speaker 5>the millennial activists replacing the boomer just standard old school

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<v Speaker 5>ACLU liberals. But it's also that the cultures of these

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<v Speaker 5>institutions are set by bureaucracies, the admissions office, the student

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<v Speaker 5>services office, not just the dei office, where all the

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<v Speaker 5>growth has been in the last decade, and the deans

419
00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:52.519
<v Speaker 5>and the presidents and the provosts, who themselves are not

420
00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:58.799
<v Speaker 5>generally woke radicals or social justice warriors, they cowtow to

421
00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:01.640
<v Speaker 5>this crowd because there's lost coward and so you have

422
00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:02.640
<v Speaker 5>this vicious circle.

423
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:10.000
<v Speaker 3>So there's a paradox. We have probably the best Supreme

424
00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:16.319
<v Speaker 3>Court we've had in eighty years, really high standard, really

425
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:22.400
<v Speaker 3>good writing, analysis and inquiry, and then we have what

426
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:27.839
<v Speaker 3>you're describing on college campuses. Do you think and perhaps

427
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:32.519
<v Speaker 3>this is a both answer, but do you think that

428
00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:37.440
<v Speaker 3>this is because the right has just got really good

429
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:40.880
<v Speaker 3>at cutting through that, or do you think it's because

430
00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:43.960
<v Speaker 3>the nonsense that you describe in the book, and I've

431
00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:47.119
<v Speaker 3>heard you talk about many times has led to an

432
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:52.160
<v Speaker 3>atrophying of the quality of left wing legal thought that

433
00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:55.200
<v Speaker 3>they've got nothing left and so we're just running circles

434
00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:55.960
<v Speaker 3>around them.

435
00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:01.000
<v Speaker 5>Well, the legal left never end it up coming up

436
00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:03.519
<v Speaker 5>with something to beat originalism.

437
00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:04.480
<v Speaker 4>Right.

438
00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:06.799
<v Speaker 5>Scalia always said original it was not perfect, and we

439
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:09.359
<v Speaker 5>can keep developing it and things that I'd say are

440
00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:13.079
<v Speaker 5>sometimes wrong, but you got to have a theory. You

441
00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:17.960
<v Speaker 5>can't beat a theory with nothing. And the left is

442
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:21.519
<v Speaker 5>showing more and more that it's it's mainly about power politics,

443
00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:25.960
<v Speaker 5>and it's mainly about instantiating these postmodern theories about baked

444
00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:31.279
<v Speaker 5>in power dynamics, and therefore institutions have to be restructured accordingly.

445
00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:36.119
<v Speaker 5>And the you know this, the Supreme Court is the

446
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:42.400
<v Speaker 5>realization of a decade's long, systemic attempt to take back

447
00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:49.079
<v Speaker 5>that particular institution, the judiciary, and and that and that

448
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.480
<v Speaker 5>finally happened, But that's only one institution among many.

449
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:53.039
<v Speaker 4>Uh.

450
00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.799
<v Speaker 5>And the the problems that we see in higher ed

451
00:23:56.920 --> 00:24:02.839
<v Speaker 5>generally and and legal education specifically are somewhat related to,

452
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:06.519
<v Speaker 5>you know, the conservative legal movement attempt to take over

453
00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:09.599
<v Speaker 5>the judiciary, but it's also part and parcel of larger

454
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:13.359
<v Speaker 5>social and cultural trends that are you know, far beyond

455
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:16.200
<v Speaker 5>the scope of a you know, constitutional exegesis.

456
00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:19.799
<v Speaker 3>So will it collapse if we don't fix this, because

457
00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:21.799
<v Speaker 3>you calm run the country from the Supreme Court.

458
00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:26.440
<v Speaker 5>Well, my friend Sarah Isger has a new best selling book,

459
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:29.000
<v Speaker 5>Last Last Branch Standing, it's the only functioning branch. It

460
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:35.000
<v Speaker 5>seems like you can't, you can't. And the Supreme Court

461
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:38.319
<v Speaker 5>has its own issues, of course, although it's it's overstated

462
00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:41.359
<v Speaker 5>by the left, the so called legitimacy issues that the

463
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:43.519
<v Speaker 5>left keeps trying to make a thing. It's not going

464
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.279
<v Speaker 5>to be a thing. But what we do have, at

465
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:51.839
<v Speaker 5>a time of historically low social trust and institutions, we

466
00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:56.440
<v Speaker 5>do have a historically big gap in confidence in the

467
00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:59.599
<v Speaker 5>courts and in the Supreme Court, especially as between the

468
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:03.480
<v Speaker 5>left and the right, Republicans and Democrats. And that's a problem.

469
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:07.759
<v Speaker 5>If half the country doesn't believe in the institution, if

470
00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:12.039
<v Speaker 5>you know, if nobody believes in the integrity of elections,

471
00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:15.720
<v Speaker 5>if you know, then that's you know, that's what leads

472
00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.119
<v Speaker 5>to the ultimate collapse. As far as law schools go,

473
00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:21.440
<v Speaker 5>as far as universities go, it's kind of a case

474
00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:24.279
<v Speaker 5>by case situation. Some of them are definitely falling and

475
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:28.920
<v Speaker 5>will fall. Some who have skilled and savvy leaders will

476
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:32.000
<v Speaker 5>reorient themselves and figure out how to capitalize on this.

477
00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:35.119
<v Speaker 5>Elena Kagan now of course on the Supreme Court. When

478
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:38.759
<v Speaker 5>she was dean of Harvard Law School, did a lot

479
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:41.960
<v Speaker 5>of great things to help an institution that had been

480
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:45.640
<v Speaker 5>in decline. Some of it ideological in terms of faculty bias,

481
00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:49.200
<v Speaker 5>balance some of it in terms of making it more

482
00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:52.559
<v Speaker 5>palatable for students to live there, to get away from

483
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.039
<v Speaker 5>kind of the paper chase, old stodgy nineteen forties and

484
00:25:56.039 --> 00:26:00.759
<v Speaker 5>fifty style pedagogy to something that was more to the

485
00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:04.640
<v Speaker 5>then modern era of the nineties. So, you know, but

486
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:08.559
<v Speaker 5>we're seeing, I think, a churn in terms of prestige,

487
00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:14.519
<v Speaker 5>in terms of student applicants voting with their feet, donors, alumni,

488
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:17.000
<v Speaker 5>all all of that. So that the constellation of higher

489
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:20.440
<v Speaker 5>education is going to look different in twenty years than

490
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:22.880
<v Speaker 5>it does now, as it looks different now than it did,

491
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:25.160
<v Speaker 5>you know, twenty five years ago when I was, when

492
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:25.880
<v Speaker 5>we were students.

493
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:29.799
<v Speaker 3>And my last question is, you were pretty critical of

494
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:34.480
<v Speaker 3>Katanji Bran Jackson's nomination. Now that she's proven herself to

495
00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.839
<v Speaker 3>be such an intellectual heavyweight, do you regret speaking out

496
00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:38.440
<v Speaker 3>as you did.

497
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:41.759
<v Speaker 5>Well, I could say you could say that Charles, I

498
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:47.359
<v Speaker 5>couldn't possibly comment, and to be clear, I wasn't criticizing

499
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:51.279
<v Speaker 5>her in particular, I made my controversial tweet before there

500
00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:54.799
<v Speaker 5>was a nominee. I was just saying that whoever came

501
00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:57.759
<v Speaker 5>out of that kind of failed process that was based

502
00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:01.000
<v Speaker 5>on race and sex would be less qualified or lesser,

503
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:04.000
<v Speaker 5>as iron artfully put it. But yes, she's certainly not

504
00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:09.400
<v Speaker 5>uh covered herself in in Garlands uh to say the least.

505
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:13.400
<v Speaker 5>I think it's you know, the left, especially the progressive activists,

506
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:17.480
<v Speaker 5>might go all yes queen on her performance, but it's

507
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:20.160
<v Speaker 5>not exactly moving the ball in their direction.

508
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:25.519
<v Speaker 2>So I guess I guess it's yes Queen, Yes Queen.

509
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:27.160
<v Speaker 2>We have to give our vowel correctly. If you're going

510
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:28.039
<v Speaker 2>to steal, if you're.

511
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:29.759
<v Speaker 5>Going to culture, I have and I have I have

512
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.640
<v Speaker 5>a mid Atlantic accent on that.

513
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Just don't culturally appropriate from the drank quing community. So

514
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:39.880
<v Speaker 2>here's the question, though, if they if our democracy has

515
00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:41.839
<v Speaker 2>saved and restored, then Democrats get back in power and

516
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:43.640
<v Speaker 2>they decide to pack the courts that they wish to do,

517
00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:45.480
<v Speaker 2>and they put in a whole bunch of people who

518
00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:49.359
<v Speaker 2>decide that issues of constitutionality shall be decided from the

519
00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:52.799
<v Speaker 2>from the posture of learned lived experience, instead of a

520
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.279
<v Speaker 2>dusty old document that nobody should really care about anymore.

521
00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:56.839
<v Speaker 2>Isn't it over?

522
00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:00.799
<v Speaker 5>You mean they're going to resurrect Woodrow Wilson, you know

523
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:06.319
<v Speaker 5>with AI, I just had a piece along that line,

524
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:12.200
<v Speaker 5>lauding Justice Thomas's speech in Austin last week. Well, this

525
00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:17.839
<v Speaker 5>is one place where I can sympathetically invoke Bernie Sanders.

526
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:20.279
<v Speaker 5>This is possibly the only thing I've ever agreed with

527
00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:22.720
<v Speaker 5>him on. When he was running for the twenty twenty

528
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:27.240
<v Speaker 5>Democratic presidential nomination, he and Joe Biden were the only

529
00:28:27.319 --> 00:28:29.960
<v Speaker 5>ones to be against court packing, and he said, I'm

530
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.880
<v Speaker 5>not going to do the accent, but he said, look,

531
00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:35.880
<v Speaker 5>if we add four people, then the next time they

532
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:38.000
<v Speaker 5>get in power, they're going to add four people. In

533
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.200
<v Speaker 5>fifty years, we're going to have eighty seven justices. It's

534
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:43.119
<v Speaker 5>no good. And that's that's exactly right.

535
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:49.119
<v Speaker 1>So I remember that famous, infamous tweet you pointed out

536
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:52.160
<v Speaker 1>that look, the best qualified person or suddenly supremely qualified,

537
00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:55.039
<v Speaker 1>was a Strenovasian from what the DC circuit. What a

538
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:58.319
<v Speaker 1>thought experiment to think about how these recent arguments would

539
00:28:58.319 --> 00:28:59.880
<v Speaker 1>go if he was on the court. I mean, I

540
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:04.720
<v Speaker 1>think Jackson is a monumental blunder by Biden because he's

541
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.079
<v Speaker 1>settled the court with someone who even alienates the other

542
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:09.759
<v Speaker 1>two liberals on the court. That's quite an achievement. But

543
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:12.079
<v Speaker 1>that's what happens when you limit your pool of potential

544
00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:14.799
<v Speaker 1>applicants to only what three percent of the American top

545
00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:16.359
<v Speaker 1>four percent of the American population.

546
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:19.880
<v Speaker 5>Right, even looking among black women, I think Leandra Krueger

547
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:24.000
<v Speaker 5>of the California Supreme Court would have been a better choice, right, more,

548
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:26.400
<v Speaker 5>you know, intellectual heavyweight.

549
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:29.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let me ask you about Thomas's great speech on

550
00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:34.240
<v Speaker 1>the Declaration that you just referenced, and specifically the reaction

551
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:37.079
<v Speaker 1>to it in this sense. You know, there is a

552
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:40.480
<v Speaker 1>I think a weakness of Thomas's argument which none of

553
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:43.640
<v Speaker 1>the critics have bored in on except not a critic,

554
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:45.599
<v Speaker 1>but you know, John, you of course disagrees with the

555
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:49.559
<v Speaker 1>Justice that the Declaration of Independence has any operative relevance

556
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:51.000
<v Speaker 1>to constitutional adjudication.

557
00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:51.279
<v Speaker 2>Right.

558
00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:53.599
<v Speaker 1>He and I argue about this endlessly because I'm on

559
00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:54.839
<v Speaker 1>Justice Thomas's side.

560
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:57.119
<v Speaker 5>Is that an east coast, west coast Straussian thing?

561
00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:00.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, partly, But I'm not going to do that, bef. Yeah,

562
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:02.759
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to inflict that on our listeners. Neil, Yes,

563
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:06.519
<v Speaker 1>I'm just not. But you could have brought that up

564
00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:10.640
<v Speaker 1>in your critique of Thomas's speech. Instead you got Paul

565
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:16.279
<v Speaker 1>Waldman at MS now and then completely insane a former

566
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:19.599
<v Speaker 1>judge Mike Ludig saying the same thing. We always thought

567
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:21.559
<v Speaker 1>he was something of a conservative still, but maybe not.

568
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:24.920
<v Speaker 1>They both said, gosh, why is Thomas picking on Woodrow Wilson?

569
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:28.920
<v Speaker 1>The real architect of progressivism was Teddy Roosevelt, and first

570
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:32.119
<v Speaker 1>of all wrong, but that's a long story. But second

571
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:36.599
<v Speaker 1>of all, why this impulse to suddenly defend, even with

572
00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:40.640
<v Speaker 1>just the deflection Woodrow Wilson? And I think it's because

573
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:44.200
<v Speaker 1>what the speech represented was a frontal constitutional attack on

574
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:47.920
<v Speaker 1>the administrative state, and that is the project dearest to

575
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.880
<v Speaker 1>the left. And finally, what a switch roo. It was

576
00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.400
<v Speaker 1>only a decade ago that liberals woke up and said, oh,

577
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:55.920
<v Speaker 1>Woodrow Wilson was a racist. We have to take his

578
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:59.039
<v Speaker 1>name off the Princeton University School of Public Affairs.

579
00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:04.000
<v Speaker 5>That Wilson's over there. Luckily it's not written in you know,

580
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:08.680
<v Speaker 5>some sort of electronic device, otherwise they would have read contract.

581
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:12.000
<v Speaker 1>And right, what do you make of this crazy reaction

582
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:12.839
<v Speaker 1>to the speech.

583
00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:19.400
<v Speaker 5>Unhinged and unhelpful to their cause. I think, yeah, I mean,

584
00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:21.519
<v Speaker 5>it would serve them well to say, you know, Wilson

585
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:24.160
<v Speaker 5>was racist and here's what he got wrong. And the

586
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:27.480
<v Speaker 5>Constitutional Accountability Center, I think has the correct approach if

587
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:31.119
<v Speaker 5>I were a progressive to say, look, the don't see

588
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:34.480
<v Speaker 5>the Constitution and the Declaration to the conservatives, this is

589
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:37.440
<v Speaker 5>the proper way of doing originalism, and you know, all

590
00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:39.480
<v Speaker 5>these good things that we like are actually in there

591
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:42.640
<v Speaker 5>in this way. It's not that it's antiquated and dusty

592
00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:44.880
<v Speaker 5>and and what have you. It's just the conservatives got

593
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:47.200
<v Speaker 5>it wrong and hijacked it. It's a more subtle and

594
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:53.160
<v Speaker 5>I think certainly more receptive in today's judiciary sort of argument.

595
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:56.880
<v Speaker 5>But it's not just the administrative state. I don't think

596
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:00.880
<v Speaker 5>the progressives, either the Capital p one hundred years ago

597
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:03.759
<v Speaker 5>or the current progressives really think about it as such.

598
00:32:03.799 --> 00:32:05.839
<v Speaker 5>It's not, you know, we need to have the bureaucracy,

599
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:08.599
<v Speaker 5>we need to you know, get the decision making away

600
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:14.279
<v Speaker 5>from Congress or any elected representatives. It's more that this

601
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:18.480
<v Speaker 5>whole idea of the right coming from Wilson's One of

602
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.039
<v Speaker 5>Wilson's speeches, the Newtonian checks and balances have to have

603
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:26.000
<v Speaker 5>been obviated by a kind of Darwinian Darwinian evolution. And

604
00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:28.799
<v Speaker 5>now that the science of government has evolved in a

605
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:33.319
<v Speaker 5>very late nineteenth century German sense, you know, we can

606
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:36.759
<v Speaker 5>have more expertise in government and and don't need to

607
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:40.440
<v Speaker 5>defer to yokels of of of of any kind. It's

608
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:43.359
<v Speaker 5>it's not, you know, rule by bureaucracy per se, but

609
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:47.920
<v Speaker 5>it's it's ruled by wise experts who would share the

610
00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:52.680
<v Speaker 5>the modern values that we that we hold your point.

611
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:55.079
<v Speaker 2>There that the left of gresses should find their own

612
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:58.000
<v Speaker 2>form of originalism. I'm always keen to understand exactly how

613
00:32:58.079 --> 00:32:59.960
<v Speaker 2>the other side thinks. And you have an agile mind

614
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:05.079
<v Speaker 2>and know them probably, So what exactly if they wish

615
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:09.279
<v Speaker 2>to extend the tentacular manifestations of the administrative and bureaucratic

616
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:11.319
<v Speaker 2>state and in every aspect of American life as so

617
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:14.039
<v Speaker 2>to improve it and nudget towards utopia? Where is that?

618
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Where is it in the Constitution? Do they? Is everything

619
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:20.359
<v Speaker 2>going to be under the commerce clause? Or what am

620
00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:22.480
<v Speaker 2>I missing? How do they? How do they get that

621
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:26.759
<v Speaker 2>total sort of regulatory power for civil rights?

622
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:29.640
<v Speaker 5>For civil rights issues Section five of the fourteenth Amendment

623
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:33.839
<v Speaker 5>that gives Congress power to implement uh, you know, vast

624
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:36.400
<v Speaker 5>equal protection protections.

625
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:36.759
<v Speaker 4>Uh.

626
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.440
<v Speaker 5>That would be from a progressive perspective, interpreted broadly to

627
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:44.920
<v Speaker 5>allow everything from affirmative action to know, you name it,

628
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:47.039
<v Speaker 5>disparate impact on still.

629
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

630
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:49.319
<v Speaker 4>Uh.

631
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:52.759
<v Speaker 5>In terms of expansive federal power, yeah, it's it's the

632
00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:56.720
<v Speaker 5>Commerce Clause. It's national power to solve national problems.

633
00:33:56.920 --> 00:33:57.160
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

634
00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:00.640
<v Speaker 5>And this day and age, everything is everything national. We

635
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:06.519
<v Speaker 5>saw that in the debate over Obamacare and related issues. Now,

636
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:10.199
<v Speaker 5>you know, they make common cause with originalists on certain things.

637
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:13.760
<v Speaker 5>For example, rights need to be in privileges or immunities

638
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:18.320
<v Speaker 5>rather than substance of due process. There's other subtle shifts.

639
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:23.880
<v Speaker 5>I think, you know, the major questions doctrine would work

640
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:27.199
<v Speaker 5>a different way if it worked at all. But there,

641
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:32.400
<v Speaker 5>you know, there's this progressive originalism Jack Balkin at Yale

642
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:36.480
<v Speaker 5>as well, where it doesn't mean that they are a

643
00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:40.159
<v Speaker 5>strong textualists necessarily, So there you might have a bigger

644
00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:44.000
<v Speaker 5>difference as between originalism and textualism than you do among conservatives.

645
00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:46.119
<v Speaker 2>I still feel as if they're trying to hammer a

646
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:48.480
<v Speaker 2>round peg into us into a square hole. They don't

647
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.159
<v Speaker 2>believe actually in the document itself. They just want to

648
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:53.239
<v Speaker 2>find clever ways to get what they want to do. Well.

649
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:56.039
<v Speaker 5>They believe in the idea of an ever more perfect union,

650
00:34:56.719 --> 00:34:59.760
<v Speaker 5>which I think is actually a European perversion of Lincoln.

651
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:05.079
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, so I hesitate to mention Jack Balkan's famous

652
00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:06.800
<v Speaker 1>book to James for fear of what he might do

653
00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:10.440
<v Speaker 1>with it. But Balcon's most prominent book on the subject

654
00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:13.960
<v Speaker 1>is called Living Originalism, which sounds one of the great

655
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.960
<v Speaker 1>oxy morons. All I knew you'd crack up at that.

656
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:19.440
<v Speaker 1>I have a last question for you. Yeah, And it's

657
00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:21.880
<v Speaker 1>another sort of breaking story this.

658
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:25.039
<v Speaker 5>That reminds me, and sorry to interrupt, that reminds me

659
00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:27.760
<v Speaker 5>of Chief Judge Bill Pryor of the eleven Circuit, his

660
00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:33.079
<v Speaker 5>critique of common good constitutionalism, this kind of living constitutionalism

661
00:35:33.079 --> 00:35:35.880
<v Speaker 5>of the right, if you will, more result oriented and whatnot.

662
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:41.199
<v Speaker 5>But he wrote a trenchant essay called living common Goodism,

663
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:44.239
<v Speaker 5>uh to say that what they're doing is just matching

664
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:46.960
<v Speaker 5>the left game with with with a different results at

665
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:48.800
<v Speaker 5>the end of the of the goal.

666
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.119
<v Speaker 2>And it reminds me of the late Walter Williams, who

667
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:52.920
<v Speaker 2>would say, if somebody sat down across from the table

668
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:55.599
<v Speaker 2>and say we're going to play living poker, the rules

669
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:58.599
<v Speaker 2>will change depending on the city. M anyway, Stephen go.

670
00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:00.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well some oar time'll you will have to talk

671
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:02.840
<v Speaker 1>about ed your interview mule and that whole business, because

672
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:03.480
<v Speaker 1>it's a mess.

673
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:07.599
<v Speaker 5>He was my administrative law professor. That's before he had

674
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.719
<v Speaker 5>that's before he converted, converted on a number of fronts.

675
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:14.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, right, Uh, last question. New York Times this week

676
00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:18.360
<v Speaker 1>thought they had a breathless, scandalous scoop about the what

677
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:20.440
<v Speaker 1>is they called the rocket docket of the Supreme Court.

678
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:24.800
<v Speaker 1>And it involved, right, the shadow doc the shadow docket.

679
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:26.880
<v Speaker 1>That's it. It involved the course the case I know

680
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:29.039
<v Speaker 1>a lot about, which goes back to the Clean Air Act,

681
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:30.480
<v Speaker 1>which I'm strangely obsessed with.

682
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:31.159
<v Speaker 6>Uh.

683
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:33.280
<v Speaker 1>And but they act like this was some kind of

684
00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:37.559
<v Speaker 1>scandal when A, it was an entirely sensible decision for

685
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:39.719
<v Speaker 1>reasons you can explain if you want. And B it's

686
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:42.159
<v Speaker 1>something that the left did for years when they were

687
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:44.639
<v Speaker 1>had the majority on the court, back in the War

688
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.960
<v Speaker 1>in Court era and so forth. So I mean, how

689
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.679
<v Speaker 1>out of touch are these people to think they've discovered

690
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:52.480
<v Speaker 1>something scandalous. That makes perfect sense.

691
00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:57.000
<v Speaker 5>Now, the big the big scandal from that leak was

692
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.800
<v Speaker 5>that there was a leak. Yeah right, it's it's the

693
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:03.039
<v Speaker 5>harmful to court deliberations. I mean, the idea that justices

694
00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:07.440
<v Speaker 5>exchange strongly worded memos among each other. That's supposed to

695
00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:10.280
<v Speaker 5>be news or you know, we criticize or the left

696
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:13.880
<v Speaker 5>criticizes the so called shadow dockets, sometimes called the emergency docket,

697
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:17.320
<v Speaker 5>but they're not always emergencies, so it's interim relief docket. Anyway,

698
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:20.159
<v Speaker 5>there's this whole meta battle about what to call all

699
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:22.480
<v Speaker 5>of this. That's not the kind of the regular train

700
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:25.400
<v Speaker 5>of having oral argument and full briefing and months of

701
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:31.480
<v Speaker 5>before the decision and all that. But the criticism that

702
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:34.039
<v Speaker 5>they don't explain themselves fully. It's like, oh, well, finally

703
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:36.199
<v Speaker 5>we get memos. It turns out they were thinking through

704
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:38.079
<v Speaker 5>all of this stuff, and now we don't like it

705
00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:42.400
<v Speaker 5>because I'm not exactly sure I mean, the process. This

706
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:44.760
<v Speaker 5>leak showed that the process worked and they weren't just

707
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:49.400
<v Speaker 5>basing their decision on and you know antipathy to Obama.

708
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:53.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, Eli, you've been the perfect guest, knowledgeable, articulate with

709
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:56.800
<v Speaker 2>an intonation that indicates that you've concluded your point, and

710
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:59.159
<v Speaker 2>you use a word like retcon, which tell me that

711
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.199
<v Speaker 2>there's just a whole stuff that we could probably talk

712
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:03.440
<v Speaker 2>about in addition to the law. And so we intend

713
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:06.760
<v Speaker 2>fully to have you back as off as handsome, handsome

714
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:14.280
<v Speaker 2>extraordinarily that's right burly with a man full swath that

715
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:16.159
<v Speaker 2>that makes the ladies go week at the knees. So

716
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:18.280
<v Speaker 2>there you have it, and read another books that we

717
00:38:18.280 --> 00:38:20.159
<v Speaker 2>can have you on, or just don't write an article,

718
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:22.079
<v Speaker 2>do something in the substack and say, hey, guys, you

719
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:23.920
<v Speaker 2>want to talk about it, I guarantee you we will

720
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:26.320
<v Speaker 2>you silver the substack. Tell them what the substack is.

721
00:38:26.360 --> 00:38:29.920
<v Speaker 5>Again, it's Shapiro's gabble. And it's there that I sort

722
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:33.519
<v Speaker 5>of play around with some uh, some more fun stuff

723
00:38:33.559 --> 00:38:35.840
<v Speaker 5>than I that I can often do in the pages

724
00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:37.679
<v Speaker 5>of City Journal or Wall Street Journal or what have you.

725
00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:40.360
<v Speaker 5>And that's where an idea for a satirical piece that

726
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:43.079
<v Speaker 5>I published in the winter's issue of City Journal came

727
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:45.840
<v Speaker 5>out my two decades in the swamp, written kind of

728
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:49.159
<v Speaker 5>in pg r ark style. He was he was my client, actually, uh,

729
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:53.039
<v Speaker 5>and one time I told him that, you know, he

730
00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:56.000
<v Speaker 5>was a. He was a an unpaid fellow, honorary fellow

731
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:58.119
<v Speaker 5>at CATO, and I said that he was worth every penny.

732
00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:00.199
<v Speaker 5>And he said that as his lawyer, I too was

733
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.599
<v Speaker 5>worth every penny. I work probona. We miss him dearly,

734
00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:06.519
<v Speaker 5>we do, but we won't miss you because we'll have

735
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.079
<v Speaker 5>you back. Thanks for joining us today, and have a

736
00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:09.679
<v Speaker 5>great weekend.

737
00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:10.320
<v Speaker 4>Thank you.

738
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:13.159
<v Speaker 5>Well.

739
00:39:13.239 --> 00:39:16.519
<v Speaker 2>Big issue today, going green, you might say, and not

740
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:18.719
<v Speaker 2>in a way that a lot of people like. Administration

741
00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:22.599
<v Speaker 2>has decided. The Acting Attorney General Todd signed it an

742
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.719
<v Speaker 2>order on Thursday to reclassify both FDA approved marijuana drug

743
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:28.920
<v Speaker 2>products and state licensed medicinal marijuana from the Schedule one

744
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:33.559
<v Speaker 2>to Schedule TLAH. This loosens federal instructions on its use. Previously,

745
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:37.639
<v Speaker 2>as a Schedule one drug, the Devil's Cabbage had been

746
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:40.360
<v Speaker 2>considered to have quote no currently accepted medical use and

747
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:44.800
<v Speaker 2>a high potential for abuse. Yeah, now a medical marijuana

748
00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:47.440
<v Speaker 2>will be classified as having quote moderate to low potential

749
00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:52.159
<v Speaker 2>for physical and psychological dependence, placing the same category as ketamine. Yes,

750
00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:56.280
<v Speaker 2>elon mosk, we see you waving your hand, anabolics, and testosterone.

751
00:39:57.159 --> 00:39:59.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure how much this will change the quality,

752
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:02.000
<v Speaker 2>the character of our daily lives and streets and hallways

753
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:06.199
<v Speaker 2>and the rest of it. But I have become weary

754
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:09.960
<v Speaker 2>of weed and the role that it plays in contemporary society.

755
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:12.320
<v Speaker 2>I think everybody they signed on and said, oh, yes,

756
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:14.960
<v Speaker 2>let's let's decriminalize it. What's the harm. It's just to herb.

757
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:18.320
<v Speaker 2>I think they were remembering sort of the mild, the

758
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:21.400
<v Speaker 2>mild intoxic that they had in the dorms way back

759
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:23.000
<v Speaker 2>in the day, where you'd stare at your hand for

760
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:25.840
<v Speaker 2>thirty minutes, or the gatefold album cover on a Yes album.

761
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:29.079
<v Speaker 2>And now you have something that has apparently been chemically

762
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:32.880
<v Speaker 2>engineered to smell like a silverback gorilla in heat. And

763
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:36.039
<v Speaker 2>when you walk around in this dead skunk smells hit

764
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:39.360
<v Speaker 2>putrefying skunk smell hits you in the nostrils in American streets,

765
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:42.239
<v Speaker 2>and it doesn't blow. I mean, it takes about a

766
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.159
<v Speaker 2>forty mile an hour wind dissipate it. The stuff just

767
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:47.360
<v Speaker 2>sort of sits there like a wraith that you have

768
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:50.679
<v Speaker 2>to walk through. Colorado is considering a law that would

769
00:40:50.679 --> 00:40:52.920
<v Speaker 2>make it illegal to smoke in your backyard if it

770
00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:57.599
<v Speaker 2>gets over in your neighbor's area. And oh, the editorials

771
00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:01.480
<v Speaker 2>we're saying, how criminalizing a smell? That's just to girtonism

772
00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:04.880
<v Speaker 2>with this, But I think they have a point. It's

773
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:08.800
<v Speaker 2>everywhere now people hate it, except for the people who

774
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:12.159
<v Speaker 2>do it, who don't know or care because they like

775
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:15.400
<v Speaker 2>to smell or they're stoned. What do you guys think?

776
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:17.679
<v Speaker 2>Do you think I'm just being an old cotton Mather

777
00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:20.360
<v Speaker 2>killed Joy by saying we should not have to smell

778
00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:22.199
<v Speaker 2>the stuff when we walk around the street all the time.

779
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:25.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, I don't know, James, I'm inclined to agree with you,

780
00:41:25.639 --> 00:41:27.400
<v Speaker 1>although I do wonder a couple of things. You know,

781
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:30.159
<v Speaker 1>I went to college in the seventies in Oregon, where

782
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:34.000
<v Speaker 1>we'd smoking was ubiquitous on campus, and I don't remember

783
00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:37.199
<v Speaker 1>it being as odorific as it is now. On the

784
00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:41.199
<v Speaker 1>other hand, people still smoke cigarettes back then, and you know,

785
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.159
<v Speaker 1>several people on my dorm floors smoked cigarettes. And we

786
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:45.519
<v Speaker 1>were used to that, right, I mean, you know, we're

787
00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:48.000
<v Speaker 1>orderly of the age where people still smoked on airplanes

788
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:52.079
<v Speaker 1>and restaurants and even movie theaters, and we were used

789
00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:55.199
<v Speaker 1>to it, I think, right. And nowadays most Americans can

790
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:57.679
<v Speaker 1>spot us, you know, a whiff of cigarette smoke from

791
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:00.960
<v Speaker 1>fifty yards outdoors, right, you don't have these signs saying

792
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:02.639
<v Speaker 1>you have to be at least fifty feet away from

793
00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:05.599
<v Speaker 1>a door. It's a great, great essay what thirty years

794
00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:07.840
<v Speaker 1>ago now by Peter Berger and commentary on the plight

795
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:10.400
<v Speaker 1>of the furtive smoker. All these people outdoors in the

796
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:12.760
<v Speaker 1>winter in New York shivering to have their smoke break.

797
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:14.440
<v Speaker 1>And now you've got to go to Central Park, and

798
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:15.880
<v Speaker 1>even there it's probably banned, as my.

799
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Guess, I'm sure that it is. But if people smell it,

800
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:22.000
<v Speaker 2>they die right on the spot. They die.

801
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:24.719
<v Speaker 1>But I do wonder if we haven't just become more

802
00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:29.239
<v Speaker 1>sensitized to secondhand smoke. That's a possibility. I'm with you.

803
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:31.360
<v Speaker 1>I think it could be both. By the way, I

804
00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:34.880
<v Speaker 1>do think stuff is definitely stronger today. We know that

805
00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:37.559
<v Speaker 1>from you know, basic chemical analysis. But I think it's

806
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:39.960
<v Speaker 1>also true that we're now much more alert to it,

807
00:42:40.119 --> 00:42:41.719
<v Speaker 1>and there's more of it. I mean, it used to

808
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:43.599
<v Speaker 1>be just in the college campuses, and now it is

809
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:46.880
<v Speaker 1>every street in New York as and everywhere else. As

810
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:47.559
<v Speaker 1>Charles is.

811
00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:52.719
<v Speaker 3>Mentioned, I am just so tired of it as well.

812
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:55.800
<v Speaker 3>And I've changed my mind to some extent on the

813
00:42:55.880 --> 00:43:00.320
<v Speaker 3>underlying question, in so far as it just never heard

814
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:03.480
<v Speaker 3>to me, given the way that smoking was being villainized,

815
00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:09.360
<v Speaker 3>that if we legalize marijuana, which I was in favor

816
00:43:09.400 --> 00:43:11.360
<v Speaker 3>of and I'm certainly in favor of federally because I

817
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:15.719
<v Speaker 3>don't think the federal government has the power to superintend it,

818
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:19.039
<v Speaker 3>then you would smell it everywhere. It's a very, very

819
00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:21.440
<v Speaker 3>weird development. I think we probably talked about this before,

820
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:23.360
<v Speaker 3>but it's just so odd that we got.

821
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:25.760
<v Speaker 4>Rid of smoking. I can remember being in college.

822
00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:31.679
<v Speaker 3>When smoking was banned, and that smell went away, and

823
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:35.800
<v Speaker 3>that habit went away. And then marijuana was legalized, and

824
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:39.639
<v Speaker 3>either it's explicitly allowed to be smoked on the street

825
00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:45.159
<v Speaker 3>where cigarettes aren't, or the authorities just turn a blind

826
00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:47.960
<v Speaker 3>eye to it. But whichever one has been picked by

827
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.679
<v Speaker 3>most of America's major cities. The consequence has been that

828
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:52.840
<v Speaker 3>you just can't go anywhere without smiling.

829
00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:56.079
<v Speaker 2>Reed and absolutely turn a blind eye to it for

830
00:43:56.119 --> 00:43:59.039
<v Speaker 2>social reasons. It's the it's the old effectory version shoplifting.

831
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:00.239
<v Speaker 2>What are you gonna do? What are you going to do?

832
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:03.199
<v Speaker 3>We can't, Yeah, but if you lit up a cigarette,

833
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:05.679
<v Speaker 3>they would be on you in ten seconds. But right

834
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:08.639
<v Speaker 3>reason it's okay, I'm sweet, and I think people hate this.

835
00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:12.679
<v Speaker 2>I absolutely do. And it's because there's some peculiar number

836
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:17.880
<v Speaker 2>of virtue or coolness or outsiderness or whatever that attends

837
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:19.719
<v Speaker 2>to the people to smoke it. You're right, I mean,

838
00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:21.400
<v Speaker 2>Steven's right. I grew up in the same era. I

839
00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:25.039
<v Speaker 2>smoked cigarettes, and my gosh, everything smelled like cigarettes. I

840
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:27.719
<v Speaker 2>worked in a bar, no, actually a restaurant which had

841
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:30.760
<v Speaker 2>a small non smoking section that consisted of two little tables.

842
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:32.960
<v Speaker 2>That's where Prince sat when he came into the restaurant.

843
00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:35.519
<v Speaker 2>And the idea that somehow you were insulated from the

844
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:38.239
<v Speaker 2>smell of cigarettes in this place with these two little

845
00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:40.719
<v Speaker 2>tables is that there was a guard all shield that

846
00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:43.000
<v Speaker 2>just No, of course not everything smelt like a plane,

847
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:45.239
<v Speaker 2>smelled like a lobby, smelled like an elevator, smelled like it.

848
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:49.280
<v Speaker 2>Probably white people, you know, doused themselves in Calvin Kleiner drack.

849
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:51.199
<v Speaker 2>Our new war when they got into the elevator was

850
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:53.400
<v Speaker 2>to combat the smell of the cigarettes. I still have

851
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:54.880
<v Speaker 2>this day. I wrote a piece about this, I think

852
00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:58.599
<v Speaker 2>for National Review Online. Remember that there were ashtrays outside

853
00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:01.559
<v Speaker 2>of elevators because the idea the social compact was, do

854
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:04.239
<v Speaker 2>you mind not smoking in the elevator?

855
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:04.400
<v Speaker 5>Is that?

856
00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:07.079
<v Speaker 2>Okay, it's like twelve floors, we understand. But if you

857
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:09.039
<v Speaker 2>could stub it out here, you can smoke as soon

858
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:10.599
<v Speaker 2>as you get out of the elevator, you know, some

859
00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:12.760
<v Speaker 2>light right back up. But if you just stub it

860
00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:15.599
<v Speaker 2>out here for that twelve floor, right, we'd appreciate it.

861
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:17.880
<v Speaker 2>So ingrained and then gone thanks to Minnesota, which I

862
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:19.800
<v Speaker 2>had the first law I think in nineteen seventy three.

863
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:22.679
<v Speaker 2>So yes, we've made that. But we've also gone so

864
00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:25.039
<v Speaker 2>far is that if somebody gets a whiff of an

865
00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:27.960
<v Speaker 2>aromatic Prince Albert pipe in the park or something, they

866
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:31.679
<v Speaker 2>believe actually that the carcinogens will envelop their body and

867
00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:34.519
<v Speaker 2>turn them into a walking tumor within forty eight hours.

868
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.559
<v Speaker 2>It's it's ridiculous, it's preposterous. The only thing we can

869
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:40.599
<v Speaker 2>afford that we are supposed to smell right now in

870
00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:46.000
<v Speaker 2>public is weed. Okay, well, anything else before we head

871
00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:49.000
<v Speaker 2>out the door. Any Iraq war predictions. I think we're

872
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:51.719
<v Speaker 2>firmly in quagmire position now. No, I mean it's fifty

873
00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:53.320
<v Speaker 2>to fifty five days, and it takes a while, and

874
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:55.280
<v Speaker 2>it's work and the rest of it. I thought, frankly

875
00:45:55.280 --> 00:46:00.000
<v Speaker 2>the molds would have cracked by now they haven't. But uh,

876
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:03.159
<v Speaker 2>turn off the money, see what happens. I see the

877
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:06.800
<v Speaker 2>guys are still doing what they want to do, and

878
00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:08.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's going well for them. But I

879
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:11.280
<v Speaker 2>wish it was more demonstrabily going well for us. But

880
00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:13.400
<v Speaker 2>then again, what do we really know?

881
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:16.280
<v Speaker 3>Well, James, you just quote it the Iraq War, which

882
00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:17.920
<v Speaker 3>I think gives us an insight that.

883
00:46:18.440 --> 00:46:21.559
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's telling. Sorry, Sorry, my mind's been, My mind's

884
00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:24.840
<v Speaker 2>been elsewhere. Yes, I'm here. I'm stuck in the nineties

885
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:27.840
<v Speaker 2>and stuck in the stuck in the odds. The Iran

886
00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:31.960
<v Speaker 2>or the yes, the coalition, not the coalition of the willing,

887
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:35.159
<v Speaker 2>but the I think I saw a tweet the other

888
00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:38.039
<v Speaker 2>day about some Indian tanker. I think the captain had

889
00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:41.320
<v Speaker 2>had paid off the Iranians in crypto or something and

890
00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:44.039
<v Speaker 2>gotten a safe word passage and they were shelling him anyway,

891
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:45.440
<v Speaker 2>and he was he was peeved off.

892
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:49.679
<v Speaker 1>That I mean. I think I think the blockade is

893
00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:52.480
<v Speaker 1>uh uh. If if Trump's willing to stay the course,

894
00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:55.760
<v Speaker 1>and my guess is he is, I think it's probably

895
00:46:55.760 --> 00:46:58.440
<v Speaker 1>going to put maximum pressure on Iran to finally cut

896
00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:01.119
<v Speaker 1>some kind of and I think Trouble allowed them a

897
00:47:01.159 --> 00:47:03.800
<v Speaker 1>face saving deal. But I think it's the endgame move

898
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:07.039
<v Speaker 1>by Trump. I think it's pretty clever. It depends who's

899
00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:07.760
<v Speaker 1>left in power.

900
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:09.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the the whole point of this was to

901
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:12.679
<v Speaker 2>get the Mulas out, was to get the mulas out

902
00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:14.320
<v Speaker 2>to have and I don't know, I don't know who

903
00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:16.440
<v Speaker 2>he's talking to. If he's talking to some civil authorities,

904
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:18.880
<v Speaker 2>if he's talking to, you know, somebody that the Shaw's

905
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:21.639
<v Speaker 2>Sun gave him in his rolodex, I you know, I don't.

906
00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:24.719
<v Speaker 1>Well, well, well, here's a larger takeaway I have, which is,

907
00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:28.280
<v Speaker 1>for years we've been saying, gee, has Iraq War one

908
00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:31.480
<v Speaker 1>or two finally put the Vietnam syndrome behind us? And

909
00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:34.480
<v Speaker 1>my argument or perception right now is if we see

910
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:36.840
<v Speaker 1>this through, we will have put the Vietnam syndrome behind us.

911
00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:40.000
<v Speaker 1>In this sense, the problem with Vietnam was always we

912
00:47:40.119 --> 00:47:44.079
<v Speaker 1>had sort of calculated escalations which allowed the North Vietnamese

913
00:47:44.119 --> 00:47:46.119
<v Speaker 1>and the viet Cong to set the pace of the war.

914
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:48.960
<v Speaker 1>And really for the last forty years with Iran, we've

915
00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:51.760
<v Speaker 1>let them set the pace of their low intensity warfare

916
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:56.639
<v Speaker 1>against US and everybody else. And so the sweep of

917
00:47:56.719 --> 00:48:00.679
<v Speaker 1>this initial attack, which was not slow s collation, it

918
00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:04.320
<v Speaker 1>was went big. From the first thirty seconds, I said,

919
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:06.559
<v Speaker 1>an end to all that. We're not playing that stupid

920
00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:08.760
<v Speaker 1>game anymore, which, by the way, was a game invented

921
00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:12.199
<v Speaker 1>in the fifties and sixties by the liberal technocrats. And

922
00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:14.559
<v Speaker 1>so you know, it's important that it be seen through.

923
00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:16.920
<v Speaker 1>But you know, we didn't finally get serious about blockading

924
00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:19.920
<v Speaker 1>North Vietnam and bombing them in a serious way until

925
00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:22.400
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy two when it was too late, right, And

926
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:25.159
<v Speaker 1>then that war, you may remember, James ended pretty quickly

927
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:28.239
<v Speaker 1>because that may you know, Nixon was the crazy man.

928
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.039
<v Speaker 1>Now Trump is much crazier than Nixon, I think, we'd

929
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:34.199
<v Speaker 1>say so. I mean, a lot could still go wrong,

930
00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:36.039
<v Speaker 1>but right now I kind of like the scene.

931
00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:38.920
<v Speaker 2>Well there's the Afghan I rock syndrome too, you could say,

932
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:40.559
<v Speaker 2>which is the people who had get very, very tired

933
00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:42.719
<v Speaker 2>of things that lasted a long time, where we're supposed

934
00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:44.400
<v Speaker 2>to be proud of ourselves wet because we put a

935
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:48.199
<v Speaker 2>KFC in cobble and they can vote and now they're

936
00:48:48.199 --> 00:48:50.199
<v Speaker 2>part of the family. Of nations and no, it's kind

937
00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:52.360
<v Speaker 2>of a parent that they're actually worn societies that will

938
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:54.280
<v Speaker 2>never reform themselves, and we're wasting a lot of money

939
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:57.920
<v Speaker 2>on this. Charles, what's your opinion. What's your take on

940
00:48:58.000 --> 00:48:59.440
<v Speaker 2>the current situation.

941
00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:06.880
<v Speaker 3>I'm not sure it's going well. If well involves are

942
00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:13.440
<v Speaker 3>either achieving regime change or opening the street of four moves.

943
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:17.800
<v Speaker 3>I do think that this line I'm starting to hear

944
00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:19.800
<v Speaker 3>on the left and from critics on the road too,

945
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:22.800
<v Speaker 3>that Trump's just going to end up with the Obama

946
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:28.440
<v Speaker 3>deal is wrong in that even if he were to

947
00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:33.519
<v Speaker 3>agree to the old Obama deal line for line, it

948
00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:36.199
<v Speaker 3>would still be the case that their nuclear program has

949
00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:42.719
<v Speaker 3>been destroyed. So the situation is better than it was

950
00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:46.760
<v Speaker 3>before we went in in some regards, but I don't

951
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:50.480
<v Speaker 3>think it's a smashing victory, and I think that's because

952
00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:54.039
<v Speaker 3>we're not prepared to do what we could do and

953
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:57.679
<v Speaker 3>go in really hard, because the public's not on board

954
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:00.679
<v Speaker 3>and they know it, and they know that far that

955
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:05.400
<v Speaker 3>by closing the straight they can cause domestic problems for

956
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:05.960
<v Speaker 3>the president.

957
00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:10.280
<v Speaker 2>I think we had smashing successes, but victory is still

958
00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:12.559
<v Speaker 2>out there. And as I said, I think anything short

959
00:50:12.559 --> 00:50:16.079
<v Speaker 2>of regime change. The removal of the molos in the

960
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:18.320
<v Speaker 2>theocratic government is a failure.

961
00:50:18.639 --> 00:50:20.800
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, Jane, I I know you want to wrap. I

962
00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:23.360
<v Speaker 1>think it's worth mentioning the I.

963
00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:25.000
<v Speaker 2>Want to sit down with I want to sit down

964
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:27.360
<v Speaker 2>here and wrap with the kids and see exactly. I

965
00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:31.719
<v Speaker 2>want to find out what's going on, man, what's happening?

966
00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:35.760
<v Speaker 1>Well, maybe for next week. I do think the story

967
00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:39.800
<v Speaker 1>this week of the Southern Poverty Law Center is significant

968
00:50:39.800 --> 00:50:43.119
<v Speaker 1>and potentially huge. So put a pin in that one,

969
00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:46.039
<v Speaker 1>because I think that's I've been waiting for something like

970
00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:47.960
<v Speaker 1>this for a very long time because I've known for

971
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:49.280
<v Speaker 1>a long time a lot of people have that they're

972
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:50.039
<v Speaker 1>totally corrupt.

973
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:54.960
<v Speaker 2>It is a thing of beauty. I mean, every time

974
00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:57.079
<v Speaker 2>that organization's name come up, I get this sort of

975
00:50:57.159 --> 00:50:58.639
<v Speaker 2>dark cloud in front of me and I just wonder

976
00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:00.559
<v Speaker 2>what they said around all Right, we're center. What kind

977
00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:02.800
<v Speaker 2>of a center army? Well, we're a law center. Okay,

978
00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:04.679
<v Speaker 2>what kind of a law do we practice? Well, we

979
00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:08.360
<v Speaker 2>practice poverty law. I'm not sure what poverty law is.

980
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:10.199
<v Speaker 2>There's something else that we could use to find it.

981
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:13.920
<v Speaker 2>We how about Southern poverty? Oh, Southern poverty.

982
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:16.679
<v Speaker 6>That's a special flavor of poverty right there that'll get

983
00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:19.360
<v Speaker 6>people to open their wallets. Everything between Tobacco Road and

984
00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:24.480
<v Speaker 6>the down trodden in the in the rural southern poverty.

985
00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:27.719
<v Speaker 1>Law Yeah, I've been asking for years why there's no

986
00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:30.239
<v Speaker 1>northern poverty law center. It seems the ilan Omar has

987
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:31.039
<v Speaker 1>missed a trick here.

988
00:51:31.960 --> 00:51:36.559
<v Speaker 2>Yes, or just midwestern Midwestern poverty, say, would just not

989
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:38.039
<v Speaker 2>sound the same because you just see a bunch of

990
00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:40.559
<v Speaker 2>guys in ski caps who are huddling around, you know,

991
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:42.159
<v Speaker 2>the food bank and the rest of it, and there

992
00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:44.480
<v Speaker 2>wasn't much law you could do for them. But no, this,

993
00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:47.760
<v Speaker 2>they're hate map, their hate charts, their temperatures, they're fundraising

994
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:49.719
<v Speaker 2>all the rest of it. It is beautiful to see

995
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:52.480
<v Speaker 2>it unmantled, and the idea, as some have frequently said,

996
00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:55.440
<v Speaker 2>that the supply of racism in this country is so

997
00:51:55.440 --> 00:51:58.039
<v Speaker 2>small that it actually has to be subsidiated, subsidized and produced.

998
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:00.840
<v Speaker 2>That they're paying guys to go of these things and

999
00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:03.920
<v Speaker 2>to gin up some transportation. Can you give a ride

1000
00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:06.400
<v Speaker 2>to that really bad guy there to the Charlottesville rally

1001
00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:09.840
<v Speaker 2>so he can. It's lovely and the tentacles are going

1002
00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:13.119
<v Speaker 2>to be found to be going elsewhere. That's why I

1003
00:52:13.159 --> 00:52:15.000
<v Speaker 2>fear the loss of the midterms, because you need some

1004
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:17.079
<v Speaker 2>sort of initiative to go from, you know, to keep

1005
00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:19.920
<v Speaker 2>the Doge spirit alive and written brand. I mean, was

1006
00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:21.800
<v Speaker 2>it the Times or the or the News or the

1007
00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Washington Post that had a story about some USAID people

1008
00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:27.639
<v Speaker 2>used to pull down a quarter mill and now they

1009
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:30.920
<v Speaker 2>can't get a job at Pesny's spice selling. Did you

1010
00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:31.559
<v Speaker 2>see that article?

1011
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:35.639
<v Speaker 3>Idea that's a cool and I think almost everyone who

1012
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:38.199
<v Speaker 3>read it took the opposite message from the one that

1013
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:42.280
<v Speaker 3>was intended, which was so this person has no marketable skills.

1014
00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Well there you go goes right back to blazing settles,

1015
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:48.400
<v Speaker 2>as does everything else. Gentlemen, we've got to predict our

1016
00:52:48.440 --> 00:52:51.719
<v Speaker 2>phony Bologney jobs, one of which is talking from a

1017
00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:53.639
<v Speaker 2>microphone on a podcast. But we've done it for seven

1018
00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:55.119
<v Speaker 2>hundred and eighty six. We hope to be here for

1019
00:52:55.159 --> 00:52:57.199
<v Speaker 2>seven hundred and eighty seven. You can help us by

1020
00:52:57.239 --> 00:52:59.960
<v Speaker 2>going to ricochet dot com signing up. Why wouldn't you, Well,

1021
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.079
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't do you because they are a weight to community,

1022
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:04.360
<v Speaker 2>the links of which you are been looking for all

1023
00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:06.480
<v Speaker 2>your life on the Internet. Yes, you can read the

1024
00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:08.880
<v Speaker 2>main page, yes you can listen to podcasts, but in

1025
00:53:08.920 --> 00:53:12.960
<v Speaker 2>the member feed, which costs next to nothing, you will

1026
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:16.039
<v Speaker 2>find a community that discusses everything from politics to art, sports,

1027
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:19.079
<v Speaker 2>so life to death, to marriage to it's all there.

1028
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:21.639
<v Speaker 2>It's all there. You're gonna love these people. And also

1029
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:24.280
<v Speaker 2>we have meetups where we actually get together in person

1030
00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:27.039
<v Speaker 2>and discuss things. And if you a Ricochet newbie would

1031
00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:29.800
<v Speaker 2>like to meet other Ricochet people in your neighborhood, there's

1032
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:31.519
<v Speaker 2>a spot for that in the site where you can ask,

1033
00:53:31.760 --> 00:53:33.639
<v Speaker 2>and believe me, they will come, and some of them

1034
00:53:33.679 --> 00:53:35.960
<v Speaker 2>will bring Haunt dishes. So we'd like you to give

1035
00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:39.079
<v Speaker 2>us five stars if you could, and the Apple podcast

1036
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:40.960
<v Speaker 2>and more people find this and we would like, of

1037
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:43.800
<v Speaker 2>course nothing better for you to leave a comment at Ricochet, Join,

1038
00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:46.960
<v Speaker 2>tell your friends, and well what else can I say?

1039
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:50.639
<v Speaker 2>Charles and Stephen, but been great as ever and we'll

1040
00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:54.320
<v Speaker 2>see every one of the comments at Ricochet soon to

1041
00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:56.639
<v Speaker 2>be five point zho bye bye