1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Ah. 2 00:00:03,799 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 2: This is Lewis for Requt from Jacksonville, Alabama, and I 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,839 play at the Cane Creek Golf Course in Aniston, Alabama. 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,839 Speaker 1: This is Golf Smarter number nine eighty two. In terms 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,160 of what you say about flow states, Yeah, you're right. 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,199 It's actually a very relaxed state of mind. Your brain 7 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,039 goes into a relaxed brainwave state. It's off an alpha 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,960 state or a theta brainwave state, rather than a really 9 00:00:27,039 --> 00:00:30,199 deeply focused state in the conventional sense. You know, the 10 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,439 kind wave you are solving a mass problem. You might 11 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,520 be spunching up your eyebrows. You know, the lines would 12 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,840 come onto your forehead. That's not how we want to 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,159 play golf. It's not how we want to perform in 14 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,640 a lot of these scenarios, whether it's forming at the 15 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,719 poker table, whether it's making a speech. Lots of studies incidentally, 16 00:00:47,719 --> 00:00:50,960 on jazz musicians in flow states. They go into a 17 00:00:51,039 --> 00:00:54,399 very relaxed state. But what they're doing is they're executing 18 00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:58,399 their skills in a very relaxed brainwave state, and you 19 00:00:58,479 --> 00:01:00,719 just slip into it, and it's the kind of thing 20 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:02,240 where you come out of it and you go, wow, 21 00:01:02,439 --> 00:01:05,879 that felt so easy. And yet I was performing so well. 22 00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:15,359 Speaker 3: The four stages of the flow state in golf and 23 00:01:15,599 --> 00:01:21,599 in life with Stephen Baker. This is Golf's Murder, sharing stories, 24 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,879 tips and insights from great golf minds to help you 25 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,560 lower your score and raise your golf IQ. 26 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,159 Speaker 1: There's your host, Fred Green. 27 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,599 Speaker 3: Welcome to the Golf Smurder Podcast. Stephen. 28 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: Oh hey, Fred, great to be here. 29 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,159 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much for joining me today. 30 00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:39,239 Tell me what it is that you love about golf. 31 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,799 Speaker 1: Well, look, I like a lot of sport, and golf 32 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:50,840 was something I came to in my mid twenties, and 33 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,719 for me at that time, I was a courtroom lawyer. 34 00:01:54,439 --> 00:01:59,599 It was just the perfect escape. I used to on 35 00:01:59,719 --> 00:02:01,200 days when I knew I wasn't going to be in 36 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,799 court the next day. I would put the clubs in 37 00:02:03,879 --> 00:02:06,560 my car, head off either to the range or to 38 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,719 the golf course and play around. And it was just 39 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,240 the perfect escape. And it was completely different. I mean 40 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,520 I was used to playing. I suppose my first love 41 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:24,240 in sport was soccer, of course, but you know it's 42 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:26,039 not something you can just say, oh, I'm not in 43 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,719 court tomorrow's let's go and play a game of football. 44 00:02:29,479 --> 00:02:32,439 You need a lot of people to do that. And 45 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,800 I got into golf. It was really through my father 46 00:02:35,879 --> 00:02:37,599 in law, who was a very good golfer. He was 47 00:02:37,599 --> 00:02:40,800 a scratch golfer and he got me into it and 48 00:02:41,319 --> 00:02:44,360 I was fascinated, because I'll be honest with you, at first, 49 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,000 I found it so hard. You know. I was used 50 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,479 to sports where I could just instinctively, you know, I 51 00:02:50,479 --> 00:02:52,280 could see a ball, I could make connection with it, 52 00:02:52,319 --> 00:02:56,439 and I couldn't really believe how badly frankly I was 53 00:02:57,159 --> 00:02:59,960 playing with a ball that was stationary. I mean, how 54 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,120 how can it be this hard? But it was. But 55 00:03:04,199 --> 00:03:09,479 it soon bit me, and yeah, I really got into it. 56 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,280 I moved to a part of the world here where 57 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,680 there are some beautiful golf courses. You know, my local 58 00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:20,240 course is a wonderful links course. I love links courses. 59 00:03:20,879 --> 00:03:23,439 Just down the coast from me, there's a great course 60 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:29,159 place called Burnham and Barrow. Further down the coast there's 61 00:03:29,719 --> 00:03:34,960 some wonderful courses in Cornwall and then up in Scotland. 62 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,879 Scotland is golfing heaven. And you know what I really 63 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:40,879 love about it is you can you can build a 64 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,639 holiday around going going and playing golf and everybody has 65 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,960 a good time because you're usually in beautiful parts of 66 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,840 the world. So yeah, that was really how I got 67 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,800 into it. I'd love to say I was a wonderful golfer. 68 00:03:56,759 --> 00:04:01,240 I'm a modest golfer, but doesn't stop me enjoying it 69 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,400 a lot, and it doesn't stop me being fascinated with 70 00:04:04,319 --> 00:04:07,800 how to improve, which kind of ties in with what 71 00:04:07,879 --> 00:04:11,639 I do generally in terms of mental performance across the 72 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:12,800 whole range of fields. 73 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,879 Speaker 3: Okay, so you got there before I did, but that's 74 00:04:15,919 --> 00:04:20,920 where we were going. Were you ever in a place 75 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:23,920 where you can incorporate what you're teaching today to your 76 00:04:23,959 --> 00:04:26,439 golf game or you've they've not really met in the 77 00:04:26,439 --> 00:04:27,040 middle yet. 78 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean definitely. It's I've brought more calmness to 79 00:04:33,879 --> 00:04:35,680 my golf game. I used to get you know, I'm 80 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:42,279 not gonna lie. I got frustrated them, absolutely, But now I, 81 00:04:43,399 --> 00:04:47,720 you know, a enjoy it more and b think as 82 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,959 a result, I am better. You know. Sure, I've still 83 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,160 got huge amounts of technical skills I need to upgrade on, 84 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,920 but what I have managed to do is at least 85 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,920 make sure that when I do play, not this big 86 00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:05,079 gap between you know, my technical game and how I 87 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,199 execute because of my emotions. And definitely the old one 88 00:05:09,199 --> 00:05:10,720 of the old traits of you know, you hit a 89 00:05:10,759 --> 00:05:12,639 bad shot and then you go immediately and hit another 90 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,560 one because you're still mad about the last one. That's 91 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,000 something I've eradicated. 92 00:05:18,079 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 3: That's good. You know, we have a saying here on 93 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,600 Golf Smarter that's been around almost as long as the podcast, 94 00:05:24,639 --> 00:05:28,079 which is never follow a bad shot with a stupid. 95 00:05:27,759 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: Shot, exactly exactly. And that's easier said than done. Right, 96 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,360 Oh yeah, you know, because effectively what happens there is 97 00:05:35,399 --> 00:05:37,000 our emotions just get a grip. 98 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 2: Of us and exactly exactly, and that effectively, I suppose 99 00:05:42,959 --> 00:05:48,360 the lessons I've learned through effectively my coaching practice are 100 00:05:48,439 --> 00:05:49,959 something I've been able to transfer. 101 00:05:50,319 --> 00:05:52,079 Speaker 1: I wish I'd had them earlier in my life. Not 102 00:05:52,199 --> 00:05:55,639 just in golf, but I mean I work with not 103 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,079 just professional sports people, but I work with people in business, 104 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:08,079 in professional fields, knowledge professionals, and effectively, the same processes apply. 105 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,160 What we want to do is be able to get 106 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,720 control of our emotions rather than allowing them to carry 107 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,360 us along. And that happens on the golf course, but 108 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,680 it happens in a whole host of other contexts as well. 109 00:06:21,079 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 3: So he said, you were a courtroom lawyer. Yes, I 110 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,680 read that you were also a professional poker. 111 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: Player, absolutely yeah. 112 00:06:32,199 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 3: And now you're a life coach. 113 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah. Yeah. I one thing I came to realize 114 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,519 I became a professional poker player. And then there's this 115 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:48,759 thing within poker that they're called stables, And basically what 116 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,240 it is is it's groups of players who are backed 117 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,399 by a financial backer to play. It's a way of 118 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,319 scaling within poker. So if you think, wait a minute, 119 00:06:59,319 --> 00:07:01,959 we can coach these people to play at a certain level, 120 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,680 we can make money off all of them. Well, they'll 121 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,319 take some of the profits, we keep some of the profits. 122 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:14,000 And I joined one of these organizations, did well within it, 123 00:07:14,079 --> 00:07:17,399 and then I became a poker coach. So I then 124 00:07:17,439 --> 00:07:19,279 became one of the people who coached the players who 125 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,199 came into the organization. And one of the things that 126 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,160 I really realized was I love coaching. So that was 127 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,800 number one. I love coaching. I kind of look back 128 00:07:28,839 --> 00:07:30,439 on my time as a lawyer when I had a 129 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:33,879 law firm, and I realized that actually I really enjoyed 130 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,120 mentoring people within the law firm. And helping them be better. 131 00:07:38,199 --> 00:07:40,279 But the other thing that I realized was I was 132 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:44,040 really fascinated with the way psychology worked. One of the 133 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,160 things that happens in poker is we again. You'd think 134 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:49,959 it's a bit like golf. You think we'll wait anek, 135 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,720 I've got time to make a decision here. How can 136 00:07:52,759 --> 00:07:55,879 I make a bad decision? But it happens all the 137 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,160 time in poker. People can immediately and I experienced this myself. Well, 138 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,160 they can say, right, I know what I should do here, 139 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:05,240 and yet somehow I've come away not having made the 140 00:08:05,319 --> 00:08:09,800 right decision. And I was really fascinated in that it 141 00:08:09,959 --> 00:08:12,959 tied in with what i'd work The field i'd worked 142 00:08:12,959 --> 00:08:17,720 in within the law predominantly was clients who'd had psychiatric 143 00:08:17,839 --> 00:08:21,240 and psychological injuries. So you have to become very familiar 144 00:08:21,279 --> 00:08:25,959 with psychology and psychiatry to understand how the brain works 145 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,800 so that you can cross examine experts and that kind 146 00:08:29,839 --> 00:08:34,320 of that love of coaching plus that interest in psychology 147 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,440 really led me down the path of coaching, and that's 148 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,200 that's why I'm doing what I'm doing today. 149 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 3: Hmm. Fascinating. I never made the connection between, you know, 150 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:53,480 poker and golf neither being reactive, if you can use 151 00:08:53,519 --> 00:08:58,000 the word sport being reactive are like you know, playing soccer, 152 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:04,480 football or basketball tennis. You're really you're on a reactive 153 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:11,919 level there. But with those two competitions you can think 154 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:17,600 about it absolutely, which is probably the deadliest part of 155 00:09:17,639 --> 00:09:20,639 the game, right because you can say you second guess 156 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:22,399 yourself absolutely. 157 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: And you see this even within soccer. There's particular moments 158 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,440 in soccer. A classic one is is a penalty kick 159 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,679 and you'll see in a big, high pressure situation and 160 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,639 you can look at a player as they're walking up 161 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,159 to that penalty spot with the ball under their arm, 162 00:09:36,399 --> 00:09:39,720 and you can say, this guy is feeling it. This 163 00:09:39,799 --> 00:09:45,559 guy ishaking absolutely, and he's all the time in the 164 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,879 world to think. And that is where some problematical things 165 00:09:49,919 --> 00:09:52,799 can happen unless you've trained your brain to cope with them. 166 00:09:53,159 --> 00:09:55,399 I can still remember it's like an image in my 167 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,559 mind coming up to a shot on my home course 168 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:04,080 and thinking, you know, as my mind I could hear 169 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,799 the thoughts going through my mind about, oh my goodness, 170 00:10:06,799 --> 00:10:09,840 because because to the right was the sea is the sea, 171 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,600 and and I developed a slice and as I was 172 00:10:14,639 --> 00:10:17,879 walking up to this shot. My mind was going, don't 173 00:10:17,879 --> 00:10:21,120 slice it, don't slice it, you know, and and it's like, 174 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,919 guess what, you know. It's it's when when somebody says, 175 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,320 don't think about pink elephants, all you can think about 176 00:10:26,399 --> 00:10:28,000 is pink elephants, right, And. 177 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: Well, when you say don't slice it, don't slice it. 178 00:10:30,039 --> 00:10:32,200 To me, the only two words you're hearing the last 179 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:33,200 two slice. 180 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,639 Speaker 4: It, yeah, slicing, Yeah, you know when you don't absolutely 181 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,919 and you know, it's it's interesting because like for me, 182 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,399 soccer was just instinctive. 183 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,639 Speaker 1: I mean, I've you know, done martial arts as well. 184 00:10:47,639 --> 00:10:52,320 When I when I when I fought, and you know, 185 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:55,840 I've won won my regional championship. I remember just not 186 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,440 thinking and I think high level sports, you what you 187 00:11:00,519 --> 00:11:03,879 do is you train your skills. But then when you're 188 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,600 in performance in a flow state, there's no thinking, it's 189 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,360 just doing. And it's that ability, as you say, to 190 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,919 just be in the moment, leave your ego to one side. 191 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,519 And this is actually something we know from the study 192 00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:22,799 of flow states that something that happens in a flow 193 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:26,960 state is it's quite a mouthful. It's called transient hypofontality, 194 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:32,120 and it means that the prefrontal cortex is actually downgraded. Now, 195 00:11:32,159 --> 00:11:37,600 the prefrontal cortex is associated with with, you know, the 196 00:11:37,759 --> 00:11:41,080 logical thinking part of our brain, the decision making part 197 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,080 of our brain, and we might think, well, why would 198 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,159 we want to downgrade that, We want it all engaged, 199 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,080 But it's definitely true that we can overthink when we're 200 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,320 actually performing in sport, and that part of our brains 201 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,879 also associated with ego and emotions. And one of the 202 00:11:57,919 --> 00:11:59,679 things that happens in a flow state is you let 203 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,559 all of that go and you just do But you 204 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,799 have to train the brain to get into that state. 205 00:12:05,919 --> 00:12:09,360 That's that's the difficulty. We've probably all experienced flow states 206 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,559 from time to time, but what we now know is 207 00:12:12,639 --> 00:12:14,960 we can definitely do things to get there more often, 208 00:12:15,399 --> 00:12:18,440 and that's useful whether you're making decisions at a poker table, 209 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,080 in a in a you know, courtroom, you know, in 210 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,559 a business negotiation, or on a golf course. 211 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 3: The fascinating part about flow state, and I want to 212 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,639 get really deep into this it d Somebody wrote a 213 00:12:37,639 --> 00:12:40,360 review about our podcast, and because Fred is obsessed with 214 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,039 the mental game, it's like, are you saying that as 215 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,960 a good thing or a bad thing because we all 216 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,519 know what golf is not just about hitting a ball, right, 217 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,080 you know, playing golf and hitting golf balls are very 218 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,440 different things, and you know a lot of it is 219 00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:01,559 that doesn't get discussed and you're taking lessons because you're 220 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,559 just learning how to hit a ball. Is you know, 221 00:13:04,799 --> 00:13:11,120 the strategic part and the mental part. So yeah, I 222 00:13:11,159 --> 00:13:14,000 do get obsessed with this kind of a topic, but 223 00:13:14,399 --> 00:13:18,879 I think it's really really helpful for all. Now, you 224 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:21,480 were talking about flow state. You know, when you're getting 225 00:13:21,519 --> 00:13:26,519 into the flow state, you really don't recognize it while 226 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:30,320 you're there. It's almost like a post mortem. It's always like, oh, 227 00:13:30,399 --> 00:13:32,679 I was in a flow state, Then how did I 228 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,240 get there? How did I fall out? How do I 229 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:39,519 get back? And I think that's primarily what we're discussing today, right. 230 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: It is it is. I mean, just circling back to 231 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,559 what you said a second ago about the importance of 232 00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:50,960 mental gain. I think anybody who stood on the driving 233 00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:55,919 range and hit a sequence of very good shots and 234 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,399 then gone to the course and when it's a shot 235 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,120 which matters, has not been able to reproduce anything like 236 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,919 that shot that might there is the importance of the 237 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:12,240 mental game, because there is a gap very often between 238 00:14:12,759 --> 00:14:19,120 what our theoretical technical skills should produce and what when 239 00:14:19,159 --> 00:14:21,600 we are put under pressure, we actually do produce. And 240 00:14:21,639 --> 00:14:25,440 this is true in a whole realm of fields. You know, 241 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,679 as I say, I work with I work with knowledge professionals, 242 00:14:28,679 --> 00:14:32,720 I work with sports professionals, and very often what we 243 00:14:32,759 --> 00:14:36,399 are focusing on is this question of, well, why am 244 00:14:36,399 --> 00:14:39,360 I not producing the skills at the level I am 245 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,320 capable of. So if we if we sort of gave 246 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,679 ourselves a scale of zero to one hundred on our 247 00:14:45,799 --> 00:14:49,120 golf skills, yes, there's work to do with your you know, 248 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,559 your professional, your instructor, your coach, who is going to 249 00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:56,639 work on actually hitting the ball well. If you get 250 00:14:56,679 --> 00:14:58,320 to the point where it's like, you know, I can 251 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:03,720 hit that shot well nine times out of ten in practice, 252 00:15:04,679 --> 00:15:08,000 but I get to the course and guess what, it's 253 00:15:08,039 --> 00:15:11,759 nothing like nine out of ten. That, right there is 254 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,240 is the mental game. And when somebody says, oh, you know, 255 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,440 why are we bothering about the mental game, Just learn 256 00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:23,879 to hit the ball better, that's it's missing the point. 257 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,320 In terms of what you say about flow states, Yeah, 258 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,399 you're right, this is the whole point, it's actually a 259 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,120 very relaxed state of mind. Your brain actually goes into 260 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,879 a relaxed brainwave state. It's often an alpha state or 261 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:41,840 a THET brainwave state, rather than a really deeply focused 262 00:15:41,919 --> 00:15:44,559 state in the conventional sense, you know, the kind where 263 00:15:44,639 --> 00:15:47,200 you're you know, if you're solving a math problem, you 264 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,840 might be scrunching up your eyebrows and your you know, 265 00:15:50,879 --> 00:15:53,240 the lines would come onto your forehead. That's not how 266 00:15:53,279 --> 00:15:55,879 we want to play golf. It's not how we want 267 00:15:55,919 --> 00:15:59,679 to perform in a lot of these scenarios, you know, 268 00:16:00,039 --> 00:16:03,720 whether it's performing at the poker table, whether it's making 269 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:09,840 a speech. Lots of studies incidentally on jazz musicians in 270 00:16:09,879 --> 00:16:13,399 flow states, and again it's very they go into a 271 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,840 very relaxed state. But what they're doing is they're executing 272 00:16:16,919 --> 00:16:21,519 their skills in a very relaxed brain wave state, and 273 00:16:21,559 --> 00:16:23,840 you just slip into it and it's the kind of 274 00:16:23,879 --> 00:16:25,639 thing where you come out of it and you go, wow, 275 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,480 that felt so easy, and yet I was performing so well. 276 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,440 And we've learned more about the brain in the last 277 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,240 twenty years as a result of modern brain imaging techniques, 278 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,399 and we kind of knew in the previous two thousand years, 279 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:46,559 and what we actually know now is how we can 280 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:51,519 actually manipulate our environment and the way we prepare to 281 00:16:51,759 --> 00:16:54,759 get into these flow states more often. And the great 282 00:16:54,799 --> 00:16:58,919 news is it's actually extremely efficient to be in a 283 00:16:58,919 --> 00:17:03,360 flow state. Involve huge amounts of hard work. It does involve. Look, 284 00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:06,960 you know, if somebody said I've not practiced a bunker 285 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,599 shot for two years, If you put me in a 286 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,000 bunker and I was that person, I'll it'd be very 287 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:16,240 hard to get into a flow state because my mind 288 00:17:16,279 --> 00:17:18,240 will recognize the fact that I've not got the core 289 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,559 skills to perform. If I've done the right kind of 290 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,200 practice and I've done the work around getting into a 291 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,799 flow state, I will be able to relax and be 292 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,920 much more likely to reproduce what I do, what I'm 293 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,960 capable of from the training ground on the actual field 294 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,119 of play. And that's what happens in a flow state. 295 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,960 You are able to relax. And we've seen it with 296 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,240 great sports people, right you know, we think about I 297 00:17:45,279 --> 00:17:48,519 was thinking before this podcast of moments where I've thought 298 00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:50,680 of great golfers and you see them in flow and 299 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,079 it was a shot Fred Couples played. I think it 300 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,880 was years ago in the Masters, and he hit it 301 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,559 and he just went oh baby as he hit it, 302 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,799 and that was just like that was flow. It was 303 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:12,799 just pure relaxation, just doing his thing, not overthinking. You know, 304 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,119 you took Ernie L's to be easy. Everything looked effortless, right, 305 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,640 and that's how Yeah, and that's what we want to produce. 306 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,559 Whereas a lot of a lot of people bring tension 307 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:30,839 to what they do, be it round of golf, making 308 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,319 a speech, pearing. You know. Again as a lawyer, you know, 309 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,559 used to be involved in a lot of negotiations, but 310 00:18:36,599 --> 00:18:43,519 you want to be relaxed. That conveys authority. So this 311 00:18:43,599 --> 00:18:45,640 is what this is what the training I do with 312 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:50,400 clients in whatever context tries to bring about this state 313 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,559 of relaxed focus. So it's the ability to zone in 314 00:18:53,559 --> 00:18:55,799 on what you want to do, but without bringing all 315 00:18:55,839 --> 00:18:59,200 sorts of thoughts which are unhelpful into the moment. 316 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 3: Flow state jazz, it's the perfect combination. It's the perfect 317 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:13,480 description of flow state is jazz. Yeah, you know, pure jazz. 318 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,559 It's just letting it go, trusting what's there and letting 319 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,680 it let it come through you. I love that, Yeah, 320 00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:22,799 I mean that's awesome. 321 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,279 Speaker 1: You know, Basically, the science has identified that there were 322 00:19:28,279 --> 00:19:30,839 four stages to the flow cycle. And I won't go 323 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,079 through the morning detail today, but number one is. 324 00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 3: The four stages don't tease me and leave me. 325 00:19:39,799 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: Okay, So the four stages are struggle. Now, people don't 326 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,279 want to hear that when when they're talking about flow states. 327 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:47,880 But that is where you learn your core skills. So 328 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,359 when we're talking about the jazz musician who produces this 329 00:19:51,599 --> 00:19:57,319 beautiful improvisation, at some point they will have learned the 330 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,880 core skills. They will have done their scales, they will 331 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,200 have learnt that piece of music in its most basic 332 00:20:02,759 --> 00:20:09,119 for but they'll have got that down. So like for us, 333 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,920 it will be okay, I'm going to basically have some 334 00:20:13,039 --> 00:20:15,319 core skills in terms of the way I drive the ball, 335 00:20:15,319 --> 00:20:17,599 the way I hit my iron shots, the way I 336 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,160 hit the ball out of a bunker. I'm going to 337 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,079 get that, and I'm going to get it to a 338 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,839 point where it feels I've at least got something which 339 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:31,759 is reliable and repeatable. That's that's unavoidable work. Then there's release. Now, 340 00:20:31,799 --> 00:20:33,640 this is the interesting thing, and this is the lesson 341 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,160 I wish I'd had when I started playing golf, I 342 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,960 you know, when I went to the driving range, I 343 00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:44,720 just wanted to hit as many balls as possible. And 344 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,200 one of the things that the brain does is it 345 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:54,000 wants to break every now and then. So let's say 346 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,599 I do it the way I should have done, which 347 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,000 was okay, let's just focus on a particular technique that 348 00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:02,720 I want to integrate into my swing. Then step away, 349 00:21:03,319 --> 00:21:05,319 step away, go for a walk, go and have a 350 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,039 cup of coffee for fifteen minutes, and the brain will 351 00:21:09,079 --> 00:21:15,240 subconsciously work on integrating that it's learning. And you only 352 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:16,799 even need to think about You only need to go 353 00:21:16,839 --> 00:21:18,559 away and say I just need to think a bit 354 00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:20,400 more about this. The brain will do it. This is 355 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,640 really vital for a lot of skills. It probably seems 356 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,079 more logical to apply it to knowledge professionals. I mean, 357 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,079 Albert Einstein used to after he'd done his working the lab, 358 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:35,920 he used to go on late Geneva and go fishing, 359 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,880 and he actually found he had his greatest insights there. 360 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,880 This was this release phase of the flow cycle in operation. 361 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,720 The brain goes into a more relaxed state and it 362 00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:50,519 actually knits all that you've been trying to work on together, 363 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:54,240 So that's really important. And then there's the flow phase itself, 364 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,119 and what happens in the flow phase is there's huge 365 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,599 amounts of dope men and Europe and ethrine driven to 366 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:06,680 the brain and they drive this state of effortless focus. 367 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,640 And then also important is the recovery phase, and there's 368 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,720 lots we can talk about there. There's physical recovery, but 369 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,960 there's also mental recovery. Again, I tend to do talk 370 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:25,480 about this in more detail with professional athletes, but it's 371 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:28,880 definitely applicable to people you know who are working, for example, 372 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,680 in a knowledge profession, and I think a lot of 373 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,359 people just work extremely hard and don't understand the importance 374 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,240 of giving themselves proper recovery to allow themselves to get 375 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,920 into a high performance state. Again, so those are the 376 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,480 four phases. Now, what that actually looks like for an 377 00:22:44,519 --> 00:22:49,079 individual very much depends on what their life looks like, 378 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,759 but that's something we work on. I then use one 379 00:22:53,759 --> 00:22:55,640 of the tools I do use, and I know you've 380 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,400 had other podcast guests talk about hypnotherapy, but I use 381 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:05,200 hypnotherapy to help integrate these skills into the way people 382 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,240 approach whatever it is their challenge is. So you know, 383 00:23:09,319 --> 00:23:11,400 if it's a round of golf, I will get them 384 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,680 to visualize being in a flow state. They have experienced 385 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:18,440 probably moments of a flow state in their life before, 386 00:23:19,279 --> 00:23:22,279 and we will leverage that to get them back into 387 00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:24,559 that state on the golf course. We'll do other work 388 00:23:24,599 --> 00:23:27,759 to make sure that everything's aligned to achieve that, but 389 00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:31,599 we'll also engage memories of having been in that state, 390 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,480 even if it's not in a golf a round of golf. 391 00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:36,720 I mean, if somebody says to me, I've never been 392 00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:39,440 in a flow state on the golf course, I'll say, 393 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,599 have you ever been in a flow state anywhere? And 394 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,200 they usually will have been, and I will use that 395 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,000 memory to transfer that state of mind to the golf course. 396 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,839 Speaker 3: When we're on the driving range and we hit ten 397 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,480 shots as we're working on something and nine of them, 398 00:24:03,519 --> 00:24:08,440 as you said, go, well, that one doesn't. That's the 399 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,200 one that we get nervous about when we're walking up 400 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,960 to the shot on the course because the course, on 401 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,240 the driving range, obviously there's no pressure to perform. That's why, 402 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,160 like when I'm when I'm warming up for putting before around, 403 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,000 I'll ask my playing pardon, let's let's have a little 404 00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:27,960 competition here, just to put a little bit of pressure 405 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,160 on these putts, because if I put four in a 406 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,119 row and one of the four goes in, I'm like, oh, okay, 407 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,319 I'm ready to go. Well really yeah, you know, so 408 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,480 we want to try to find the time. You know, 409 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,400 golf is even the best golfers in the world make 410 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,160 bad shots. It's about how you recover from them. That's 411 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,400 that's the point. But I don't know do we want 412 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,319 to There's two things I want to go after. One, 413 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,359 I want to talk more about the recovery phase, but 414 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,160 also you talk about, you know, professional athletes, professional poker players, 415 00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:08,359 professional golfers, how they get there on that flow state. 416 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,920 I want to know how do we as recreational as amateur, 417 00:25:13,599 --> 00:25:16,319 no matter what our skill level, whether we're an eighteen 418 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,680 twenty handicap or we're scratch or one or two, can 419 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,359 we get there? 420 00:25:25,039 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: Yes? You can, absolutely you can. We've got to recognize 421 00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:37,799 that a flow state for a fifteen handicapped golfer is 422 00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:41,920 not going to look like a flow state for you know, 423 00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:46,319 somebody who's a musician, Yeah yeah, or somebody who's competing 424 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,200 down the stretch in the Masters. Okay, what it will 425 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,200 look like is, hey, I am playing my best golf 426 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,279 and I why it will look where it will look 427 00:25:57,319 --> 00:26:00,559 similar is that they will be getting out of their 428 00:26:00,599 --> 00:26:02,599 own way, they won't be getting in their own head, 429 00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:07,599 and they will be performing at their level. Okay, so 430 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,319 they will be performing at a level commensurate with their skills, 431 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,799 because that's what we're talking about here. What we want 432 00:26:13,839 --> 00:26:17,799 to do is at least perform and a level commensurate 433 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,960 with our technical skills. And what very often happens for 434 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,400 a lot of golfers is that they fall below what 435 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,880 they're capable of, you know. In other words, to come 436 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,640 back to our example of the person who hits nine 437 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,799 out of ten good shots on the range a particular 438 00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:37,880 type of shot, and they go to the course and 439 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,079 they're not hitting it with anything like that frequency. So 440 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:47,119 we can definitely prepare the recreational golfer to perform at 441 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,160 their level. Now, they have to still do the hard 442 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,920 work if they want to improve their game to take 443 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,039 it to the next technical level, but mentally they can 444 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,519 do working. It can be very time efficient by the way, 445 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,599 you know, I mean when I work one of one 446 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,599 of the most common kinds of clients I have. I 447 00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:07,440 do have professional sports people, but I also have clients 448 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,519 who are in business or in a professional line of work, 449 00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:16,720 and they also are extremely interested in sports, so I do. 450 00:27:16,839 --> 00:27:20,920 I've got a client now who's very keen golfer. He's 451 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,079 a lawyer and he loves his golf, and we will 452 00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:28,160 do work on that because that is his big passion, 453 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,720 it's his big outlet. I've got clients who are into tennis. 454 00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:38,039 Same thing. Very common one for me given my background 455 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,920 is I've got clients who are maybe in business, but 456 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,200 they love poker. And what I do with all of 457 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,359 these clients is work on basically ensuring that we've got 458 00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:51,519 techniques that we can build into their lifestyle. And it's 459 00:27:51,519 --> 00:27:54,599 a busy lifestyle for most of these people, which they 460 00:27:54,599 --> 00:27:59,480 can they can transfer to their passion, their recreational passion. 461 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,400 And the good news about this is that, well two 462 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,880 good pieces of good news. Number One, you can be 463 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,160 time efficient with this stuff, and secondly, these skills tend 464 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,240 to transfer to the other things you're doing in life. 465 00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:15,000 So if you can get into flow states when you're 466 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,400 on the golf course but you're not a professional golfer, 467 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,279 you can actually use these same approaches to perform better 468 00:28:21,319 --> 00:28:27,519 in your business because they are skills which transfer I've 469 00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:34,720 mentioned jazz musicians, I've mentioned professional poker players, tennis players, golfers, 470 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,160 people in business, traders you know, I act for a 471 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,319 number of people who are crypto traders and four x traders, 472 00:28:43,839 --> 00:28:46,000 and being able to perform in a flow state there 473 00:28:46,079 --> 00:28:52,839 is important. So these skills are very transferable across all 474 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,640 of these spheres. And the good news is they, as 475 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,400 I say, you can do it in a way which 476 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,599 is extremely time effiicient. It has to be. It's slightly different. Obviously, 477 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,920 if somebody is a full time professional sports person, they've 478 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,519 got all the time in the world to prepare themselves, 479 00:29:08,559 --> 00:29:13,200 and it is their business to prepare themselves. But it's 480 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,319 definitely true that you can develop techniques to get into 481 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,400 flow in a way which is extremely time efficient, even 482 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,079 if you just you know, are playing around on a Saturday. 483 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:31,039 Speaker 3: But what does it take for you to recognize that 484 00:29:31,119 --> 00:29:33,680 you're in it? I mean, how much I guess how 485 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,359 much work does it take? Do you have to be 486 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,680 at that level? Or can can an amateur golfer go, WHOA, 487 00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:43,680 I'm in the flow state right now? Or is that 488 00:29:43,759 --> 00:29:47,759 identification immediately the opportunity to self sabotage. 489 00:29:49,079 --> 00:29:50,759 Speaker 1: No, well, let me ask you. 490 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,079 Speaker 3: The first question is asking two questions. 491 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:55,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the first question answer. The first question is 492 00:29:55,359 --> 00:29:57,960 an amateur golfer absolutely can be in a flow state. 493 00:29:58,039 --> 00:30:01,839 As I said before, the question is what does that 494 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,480 look like given their skill level. But the point is 495 00:30:05,559 --> 00:30:07,920 what does a flow state mean for an amateur golfer. 496 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,680 Let's say it was me, a mid handicapper. It just 497 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,960 means I am executing the shots the way I know 498 00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:20,200 I can. Now, that's not going to be anything like 499 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,839 a professional golfer, let's be honest, but I will be 500 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,000 playing my game. In other words, if I am hitting 501 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,000 that shot ten times well on the range, I will 502 00:30:30,039 --> 00:30:32,359 be hitting it nine out of ten times well on 503 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,440 the course. That's what it looks like for me. I 504 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,759 won't be hitting it as far or as accurately as 505 00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:40,279 a pro, but I will be getting out of my 506 00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:44,000 own way. I won't be overthinking. I'll just be in 507 00:30:44,039 --> 00:30:53,160 that state of flow. So it can look and feel. Certainly, 508 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,640 it can feel exactly the same as it would for 509 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,920 a professional sportsperson. Because flow is essentially a person experience, 510 00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:04,680 you still will perform on a level which reflects your 511 00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:10,279 your actual technical skills. But the good news is, you know, 512 00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:13,039 as so often isn't the case, we are actually at 513 00:31:13,119 --> 00:31:16,480 least performing at the level of our technical skills. You know. 514 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,720 That's that's the point I'm making here about close states 515 00:31:19,759 --> 00:31:22,000 that one of the things that happens is you perform 516 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,680 at the level of your capabilities. And so often when 517 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,599 we go to the golf course and when we're playing 518 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,480 in that situation where it matters, hitting that shot matters 519 00:31:31,519 --> 00:31:34,039 as opposed to I get five more to get it 520 00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:38,599 right on the range, you know, don't We don't play 521 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,599 at that level when we're on the course when it 522 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,279 really matters, But when we're in a flow state, that's 523 00:31:43,359 --> 00:31:45,759 exactly what we achieve, and that's what we want to do, right. 524 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,240 All that practice is designed to produce a shot which 525 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,559 we're proud of on the course when it really matters, 526 00:31:52,079 --> 00:31:55,279 and that can be achieved for the recreational golfer in 527 00:31:55,519 --> 00:31:58,319 just the way it can for the professional golfer. 528 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 3: But that's the thing about golf is as comfortable as 529 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,599 you are with this shot, it may leave you with 530 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,119 the next one as a shot that you're going I'm 531 00:32:09,119 --> 00:32:12,559 not comfortable with this. I'm not confident in myself in this. 532 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,920 And again we're back to the self sabotage part I. 533 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,640 For myself, I have recognized times that I was in 534 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,440 the flow state. Afterwards it's like, oh, that's why today 535 00:32:26,599 --> 00:32:30,359 was so comfortable. Yeah, that's why, because I was just 536 00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:37,519 there and not getting my getting in as you say, 537 00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:40,960 as doctor Joe Parent says from the very first episode 538 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,440 that we did I help golfers get out of their 539 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:44,960 own way. We get in our own way. 540 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,599 Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean one of the one of the exercises 541 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,960 I do with clients is I will do visualization with 542 00:32:53,079 --> 00:32:56,880 them under hypnosis and I'll record I actually record an 543 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,920 MP three for clients, and usually it will be some 544 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,400 thing I will update from time to time. So somebody 545 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,119 may go through a phase of finding a particular shot 546 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,640 difficult and a particular situation difficult. So let's say you're 547 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,480 in a flow state, you're hitting, you've hit some good shots, 548 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,599 and then you find yourself in a bunker, and let's 549 00:33:17,599 --> 00:33:20,640 say that that that's your bet noir. Being in a 550 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,759 bunker is is something where you're you're not feeling comfortable. 551 00:33:26,319 --> 00:33:28,640 So obviously number one you've got to work with your 552 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,640 your coach, your technical coach on being as good as 553 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,240 you can be. But what we will then do, having 554 00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:37,720 done that work is I will get you to visualize 555 00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:42,319 being in that situation and being comfortable with it. So 556 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,799 part of visualization, a really important part of visualization, isn't 557 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,680 just seeing everything going great, because that's just not the 558 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,599 way life works and it's not the way golf works. Right, 559 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,079 you know, you will hit that ball in the bunker sometimes, 560 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,440 and what we will do is get your mind to 561 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:07,319 be comfortable with facing that situation and you know, maybe 562 00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:11,159 even playing a bad shot, you know, because that's also 563 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,320 going to happen. Hey, you know, you sit down and 564 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,519 watch any great player, they will hit a bad shot sometimes. 565 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:19,880 And what we want is is for the mind to 566 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,840 already be comfortable with the idea that Okay, that's gone. 567 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:28,960 I now deal with the next thing. And you can 568 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,199 definitely improve that state of mind by actually using these techniques, 569 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,000 by using a combination of what we know from flow 570 00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:42,280 states and what we know from hypnotherapy, what's happening there 571 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,880 in those moments where things go wrong, and playing it. 572 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,000 I do remember playing a round of golf with a 573 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,519 good friend of mine, and he was one of the 574 00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:53,920 most calm, chilled guys I've ever known. And I remember 575 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,679 him being in a bunker and I was across, I 576 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,440 was on the fairway watching him across in this bunker. 577 00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:03,199 He was turning like a different shade of lead as 578 00:35:03,199 --> 00:35:06,760 he hit multiple shots and they weren't coming out of 579 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,079 the bunker. And that was, you know, a classic case 580 00:35:11,119 --> 00:35:13,960 of an emotional hijack on the golf course. You know, 581 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,519 your your subconscious is just like, I hate this, this 582 00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:21,199 feels bad. And what we want to do is mentally 583 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,480 prepare for those moments so that we actually can keep 584 00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:28,559 that same state of mind, so even if you are 585 00:35:28,639 --> 00:35:32,199 in a difficult situation, you can train the mind to 586 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,119 actually say, hey, we've got this. There's been lots of 587 00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:38,960 examples of this from sports psychology. I mean, a really 588 00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:43,559 well known example is Michael Phelps, the swimmer, and one 589 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:48,039 way he was prepared by his coach was the coach 590 00:35:48,119 --> 00:35:51,920 used to break his goggles so that the goggles and 591 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,199 then make him swim we've broken goggles. And it turned 592 00:35:55,199 --> 00:36:01,880 out for one of his Olympic races his goggles were 593 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:07,679 actually broken, and mentally he was then not just technically 594 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,440 prepared as to okay, how do I keep swimming straight 595 00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:15,239 and quickly, but also mentally he was already in the 596 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,360 zone where it's like I can cope with this. I've 597 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,039 been here before. So one of the things I do 598 00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:23,119 with clients is prepare them for the difficult things that 599 00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:26,960 can happen. I do think hypnotherapy is an extremely powerful 600 00:36:27,039 --> 00:36:31,840 way of basically getting the mind prepared for that. I 601 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,920 know you've had Dr David Spieger on one of your podcasts, 602 00:36:35,679 --> 00:36:37,800 and you know he can talk at some length about 603 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,400 the what's actually happening at a level of mural structures. 604 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,719 But effectively, what we're doing is we're teaching the mind 605 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,239 to learn how it's going to respond to these challenges. 606 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,880 And with this kind of approach I use with clients, 607 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,599 you can prepare your mind for those difficult moments so 608 00:36:54,639 --> 00:36:56,519 you won't be kicked out of the flow state. 609 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,639 Speaker 3: You said emotional hijack. I've never heard that term, and 610 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,400 I absolutely love it, but I want to dig into it. 611 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I mean I'm not the first one to 612 00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:16,199 come up with that. 613 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 3: I'm going to give you credit for it. 614 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,639 Speaker 1: No, I think I think the first person who came 615 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:26,519 up with it is a psychologist called Daniel Goleman. I'm 616 00:37:26,519 --> 00:37:30,280 trying to remember the book. I think it was Emotional 617 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:35,079 Intelligence was the book, and he talks about the amigdala hijack. 618 00:37:35,199 --> 00:37:39,760 So what happens is is this that we and will 619 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,559 recognize this. We get into a tense situation and often 620 00:37:43,599 --> 00:37:46,559 we'll feel a physical response in our body. Strong emotions 621 00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:50,000 produce strong physical reactions in our body. So if you've 622 00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:54,039 ever got really angry or upset, you might feel attention 623 00:37:54,199 --> 00:37:58,639 in your shoulders or your chest, and the amigdala recognizes that. 624 00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:02,039 The brain recognizes it, and it tends to then send 625 00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:05,320 a message to the fight, flight or freeze mechanism in 626 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,800 our body, which is in the mind, which is really 627 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,599 part of our evolutionary programming, and it says, hey, this 628 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:19,079 is this is a threat, and we then respond accordingly. Now, fight, 629 00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:24,159 fight or freeze was a very useful evolutionary program, you know, 630 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,280 kept us alive as a species. It's highly unlikely to 631 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,880 be particularly useful as a response on the golf course. 632 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:32,719 You know, we are never going to be in a 633 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,000 situation where we need to fight, fight, or fly or freeze. 634 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,719 What we want is a much more calibrated, calm response. 635 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,719 You know, yeah, I found myself in the rough. That's 636 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,000 not a fight, flight or freeze situation. But we have 637 00:38:48,119 --> 00:38:51,440 to train the mind to recognize that, because that may 638 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,039 be the situation if you're playing a money game or 639 00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:56,480 you're playing for whatever stake's the matter. You know, it 640 00:38:56,519 --> 00:38:58,679 may just be a four ball where there's a little 641 00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:02,480 bit of private stake. The brain might still go to 642 00:39:02,599 --> 00:39:07,559 that over exaggerated response. And what we what we have 643 00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:11,000 to do is train the book the mind to say, hey, 644 00:39:11,039 --> 00:39:13,239 wait a minute, there's a better way of dealing with this. 645 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,599 And this is something that comes across in lots and 646 00:39:16,639 --> 00:39:20,239 lots of contexts. You know. One of the things I 647 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,960 work with a lot of clients on is fear of 648 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:28,039 public speaking. There's been some amazing studies. It's showing that 649 00:39:28,119 --> 00:39:31,920 people are more scared of giving a speech than dying. 650 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,960 It's crazy, but that is that's an emotional hijack. Nothing 651 00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:41,840 terrible is going to happen, but quite often we are 652 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,360 wired to respond in that way. And some of the 653 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,480 problems go back to the way we I mean, particularly 654 00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:52,000 childhood experiences you might have had to have given a 655 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,239 think of a client who had to give a talk 656 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,519 in a classroom as a child, and the teacher was 657 00:39:59,599 --> 00:40:04,320 unplayed and classmates were unpleasant about it, and so they 658 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,159 had a lot of difficulty at a point in their 659 00:40:06,159 --> 00:40:08,920 life where they had to give a speech. They found 660 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,599 it hugely stressful, and what we had to do was 661 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,920 unravel that and teach their mind a new way to 662 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,760 thinking about it. Because it's really important for us to 663 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,880 be accepted playing a good shot on the golf course 664 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,239 and not letting your partner down if you're in a 665 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:28,159 if you're in a four ball, you know that still 666 00:40:28,199 --> 00:40:32,000 matters to us. And it's no good just saying to somebody, oh, 667 00:40:32,039 --> 00:40:33,920 come on, put it all in perspective. What we have 668 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,840 to do is train the mind to say, hey, let's 669 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,519 just create a good way of approaching how we're going 670 00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:44,280 to deal with this situation. And you're not going to 671 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,559 be able to just do that on the hoof. You're 672 00:40:46,559 --> 00:40:50,400 going to need to prepare for it mentally. But the 673 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,880 good news is there are ways of doing it. You know, 674 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,639 Daniel Goldman's book around Emotional Intelligence really is saying there 675 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,800 is a better way of approaching many many situations in 676 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,679 life where we have an instinctive emotional response. We can 677 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:05,880 retrain that response. 678 00:41:06,519 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting. I see the correlation between an 679 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:17,440 unpracticed bunker shot and getting up on stage to make 680 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,000 a speech in front of a crowd of people as 681 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,880 not wanting to embarrass yourself in front of others for 682 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:30,119 something you're not comfortable doing in front of others, right, 683 00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:30,800 I mean, it's like. 684 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, well again, think of this. You know, I've 685 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,559 already referred to the fact that this fight, fight or 686 00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:41,039 freeze response is evolutionary. Think about one of the most 687 00:41:41,079 --> 00:41:43,800 important things for us in evolutionary terms was to be 688 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:50,159 part of a tribe, to be accepted. And if you 689 00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:52,199 stand on a stage and make a speech and it's 690 00:41:52,199 --> 00:41:56,639 embarrassingly bad, your brain hates that because it's like, oh 691 00:41:56,639 --> 00:42:00,119 my goodness, I'm not being accepted. If you let your 692 00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:05,119 teammate down in a four ball you know that that's 693 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,480 that's a difficult feeling because it's the same thing. You know, 694 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:10,679 think of those guys in the Ryder Cup, you know, 695 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,079 and you know final holes, and you know you've got 696 00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:18,239 to make that put You're you're not just looking after yourself, 697 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:25,119 You're you're basically it's hard. I mean look, even if 698 00:42:25,159 --> 00:42:27,800 it was just you, you don't want to be known 699 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:33,199 as the choker, you know, So even then there's an 700 00:42:33,199 --> 00:42:37,039 element of how do others perceive me? But again, this 701 00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:40,239 is what we want to achieve when we go into 702 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,000 a flow state. We get all of that out of 703 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,880 the way. We don't want all of that extra stuff 704 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,800 on our shoulders. We just want to We just want 705 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,280 to play, We just want to hit the shot, and 706 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:51,639 we want to be able to get all of that 707 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,000 out of our heads. And that's what happens automatically in 708 00:42:55,039 --> 00:42:59,320 a flow state. And through this combination of I mean 709 00:42:59,559 --> 00:43:04,719 there's multiple leavers I use within the coaching I do, 710 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,920 but it is the flow states, the hypnotherapy, some body 711 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:13,519 to mind techniques like breathwork, my other mind to body 712 00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:16,760 techniques like meditation. It all sounds like quite a lot, 713 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,119 but I find the right balance for clients and something 714 00:43:19,159 --> 00:43:24,239 that they can fit into their everyday lives. Yeah, but 715 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,760 the good news is that, you know, it actually does 716 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:32,320 not take that much effort or time to actually achieve this. 717 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,840 It just takes a little bit of consistency in a 718 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,280 little bit of planning, and with that, you know, you 719 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:39,920 can get all the benefits. 720 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 3: So you were saying that the four stages of flow stata, struggle, release, 721 00:43:46,639 --> 00:43:50,800 the flow phase, and the recovery phase. Yes, and I 722 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:52,639 wanted to follow up on the recovery phase. 723 00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:57,280 Speaker 1: Okay, So recovery is really well known as a concept 724 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,880 for professional athletes, and what people have in mind there 725 00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:03,360 is Okay, make sure you're resting a lot, maybe getting 726 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,920 some massage for your muscles. 727 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,760 Speaker 3: But it's not an immediate phase. I mean, as far 728 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,079 as the fourth phase, it's not something that's all incorporated 729 00:44:17,079 --> 00:44:18,320 in say a golf swing. 730 00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 1: No, no, no, absolutely not so so for example, Okay, 731 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,480 so the struggle phase, and let's let's translate this to 732 00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:27,920 somebody who's playing golf. The struggle phase is what you're 733 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,400 going to be doing on the on the practice ground. 734 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,400 That's where you where you where you with your coach, 735 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,119 will break down your swing, will work out what you're 736 00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:39,519 not doing right and having to do some hard work 737 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,880 to actually, you know, model the swing on a particular 738 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,639 shot the way that you need to, and that will 739 00:44:46,679 --> 00:44:49,960 be difficult. You've got to try and build your skills 740 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:56,039 to the point of unconscious competence. There's there's no getting 741 00:44:56,039 --> 00:44:59,400 around that. And it's going to be impossible to get 742 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,480 into a flow. As I say, you know, if I 743 00:45:02,519 --> 00:45:06,519 now go into let's imagine I haven't played a round 744 00:45:06,519 --> 00:45:08,920 of golf, will practice my bunker shot for a year. 745 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,559 Guess what if I then try and get into a 746 00:45:11,599 --> 00:45:14,320 flow state and I find myself in a bunker, I 747 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,280 won't because I haven't gone through the struggle phase of 748 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:22,000 actually improving that technical skill. No amount of mental magic 749 00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:25,719 I can do with the client is going to overcome 750 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,159 the fact that the client's conscious brain is going to say, 751 00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:30,400 don't tell me to be relaxed here. I don't know 752 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,159 how to play this shot. I haven't practiced it enough, 753 00:45:33,199 --> 00:45:36,840 so you have to do that work. The release phase 754 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,519 is something you can do at the practice ground, and 755 00:45:39,559 --> 00:45:43,679 I would recommend it. It is just stepping away. I 756 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,280 do this. I play tennis every week and my coach, 757 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,679 you know, I will say to my coach sometimes just 758 00:45:49,679 --> 00:45:52,519 give me five minutes. I've hit a number of serves. 759 00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:56,400 Give me a few minutes. And I actually find that beneficial, 760 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,599 firstly physically to recover, but secondly just to let me 761 00:46:00,119 --> 00:46:03,320 my brain just compute the way I've been hitting those serves. 762 00:46:03,639 --> 00:46:07,639 That's really important. The same you know, when you're practicing 763 00:46:07,679 --> 00:46:10,519 those shots. It's not a case of let's get the 764 00:46:10,559 --> 00:46:12,440 most out of what. Let's say you've paid for an 765 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,880 hour of tuition with your golf coach. It may be 766 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,400 that it's a really smart use of time. Maybe golf 767 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,159 coaches feel they can't do this, but I would say 768 00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:24,400 it's a really smart use of time to say to somebody, right, 769 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,559 you've been hitting that shot for the last ten minutes, 770 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,679 just take it easy. Let's just you know, sit here, 771 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,079 have a chat, have a cup of coffee for a minute, 772 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,519 and just let that all percolate effectively in your mind. 773 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,679 That's kind of what the re release phase looks like, 774 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,320 the flow phase looks after itself. That's the whole It's natural. 775 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,119 Recovery will be something that you will do after the event, 776 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,960 whatever that event is. What happens in a flow state, 777 00:46:55,559 --> 00:46:58,719 and I think I've touched on this already, is and 778 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,400 a mental and neurologic level, what's happening is huge amounts 779 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:06,199 of dopamine and europin ethrin are being driven to your brain, 780 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:13,199 and those are extremely expensive neurochemicals for the body to produce. 781 00:47:14,199 --> 00:47:18,440 So when we're talking about recovery in the context of 782 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,599 flow states. We're not simply talking about physical recovery. We're 783 00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:26,159 talking about the recovery of the ability to regenerate these 784 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,880 flow neurochemicals. So things that are really important. This is 785 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,519 going to apply to any of your listeners who are 786 00:47:33,679 --> 00:47:37,000 working extremely hard in a knowledge professional environment. You know, 787 00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:40,079 they're working in an office, and a lot of people 788 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,679 just work, work, work, and think, I'm going to have 789 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,880 to solve this project. I'm going to have to solve 790 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,239 this problem I'm working on. But what's really important is 791 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:53,840 that they, after maybe some concentrated time working on the problem, 792 00:47:54,199 --> 00:47:56,639 they actually step away and they do things like go 793 00:47:56,679 --> 00:47:59,320 and have a sauna, go and have a massage, make 794 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,000 sure you do not compromise on sleep, go and do 795 00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:07,760 some light exercise. You know, all of these things are 796 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,039 proven ways to regenerate those neurochemicals, and they then start 797 00:48:12,079 --> 00:48:14,519 the flow cycle again. They then help you get back 798 00:48:14,559 --> 00:48:17,760 into float. Without recovery, you don't get back into flow. 799 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,480 That's why it's a cycle. It restarts where a lot 800 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,400 of people, where a lot of people who really want 801 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:28,360 to achieve a lot in whatever field fail is. They 802 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,119 work hard, they get into the flow state, but then 803 00:48:31,199 --> 00:48:33,159 they just say I've got to keep working. I've got 804 00:48:33,199 --> 00:48:36,519 to keep grinding. And what you do need to do 805 00:48:36,679 --> 00:48:40,599 is recognize the importance of recovery in starting that flow 806 00:48:40,639 --> 00:48:41,719 cycle all over again. 807 00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:48,400 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that you know. Golfers have to be 808 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,159 able to identify how important what you just said is 809 00:48:52,639 --> 00:48:57,440 for their overall game, their overall you know, start to finish. 810 00:48:57,519 --> 00:48:59,679 It's not just shitting balls, and so much of that 811 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,719 is so important. Thank you, Oh my god, that's incredible. 812 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,079 Take the last minute. If you can to promote yourself, 813 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:11,239 your podcast, your books, your poker game, whatever you'd like. 814 00:49:12,559 --> 00:49:18,679 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, Well, you can find me on www dot 815 00:49:19,039 --> 00:49:23,960 s Baker s for Stephenbaker dot life, and you can 816 00:49:24,079 --> 00:49:29,159 be a k e R. That's right, yes, and you 817 00:49:29,159 --> 00:49:31,920 can have a free consultation if you there, there's a 818 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,440 there's a link. And yeah, if you think that I 819 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,880 can help you improve your golf care game or your 820 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:44,079 business decision making, anything where performance is important, just feel 821 00:49:44,119 --> 00:49:45,800 free to reach out to me then and we can 822 00:49:46,039 --> 00:49:47,960 we can spend half an hour chatting about how I 823 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:48,599 can help you. 824 00:49:49,639 --> 00:49:52,000 Speaker 3: And just to make sure people understand, don't go to 825 00:49:52,159 --> 00:49:55,760 s Baker dot com, It's s Baker dot life. 826 00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:56,920 Speaker 1: That's correct. 827 00:49:57,199 --> 00:50:01,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh wow, Steve even this has really been informative 828 00:50:01,559 --> 00:50:05,840 and enlightening. I feel like I need to recover from 829 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,920 the flow scrape here on this conversation. Thanks so much 830 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:11,440 for your time. Really appreciate it. 831 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,679 Speaker 1: Thank you. Fred really enjoyed it.