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Jump chumpacasino 22 00:00:56.200 --> 00:00:56.719 dot com. 23 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:57.799 Nope, just necessary boid. 24 00:00:57.799 --> 00:00:59.520 We're prohibited to my long eighteen plus terms and conditioned 25 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:00.159 plice let's. 26 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:02.759 Details lock Tostan. 27 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:15.239 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 28 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:18.359 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 29 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:25.719 written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every 30 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:29.439 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:34.079 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 32 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:36.959 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 33 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:49.200 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 34 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:52.079 program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime 35 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:55.359 History and the authors that have written about them. In 36 00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:59.239 June nineteen eighty three, Doug and Peggy Ryan, their ten 37 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:01.920 year old daughter and eleven year old house guests, were 38 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:06.519 brutally murdered in Chino Hills, California. Two days before. Kevin 39 00:02:06.599 --> 00:02:09.599 Cooper had escaped from a nearby prison and hid in 40 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:12.639 a vacant house one hundred and twenty five yards below 41 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:18.159 the murdered family's hilltop house. After the San Bernardino Sheriff's 42 00:02:18.199 --> 00:02:21.240 Department established that he had hid there, it focused on 43 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:26.080 him as the lone assailant, despite numerous eyewitness report reports 44 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:30.159 that implicated three white men as the perpetrators Kevin Cooper 45 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:32.479 was convicted of the murders in nineteen eighty five and 46 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:34.840 has been on death row at San Quentin since then. 47 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:39.479 Scapegoat shows how the Sheriff's office and the District Attorney's 48 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:43.759 office s Bernardino County framed him for the horrific murders, 49 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:46.360 and how the justice system has failed him at almost 50 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:49.759 every turn in his long drawn out appeal process. As 51 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:54.520 O'Connor's shocking but thorough investigation shows, the sheriff's department discarded 52 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:59.879 information that pointed at other perpetrators, destroyed evidence that exculpitated 53 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:05.039 exculpated Cooper in planet evidence that implicated him. If we're 54 00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:09.039 not for a court ordered moratorium on executions in California 55 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:13.479 over the lethal injection controversy, Cooper, with no appeals remaining, 56 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:15.240 would have been executed. 57 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:16.759 The book that we're. 58 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.960 Featuring this evening is Scapegoat, the Chin o' Hill Murders 59 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.879 and the Framing of Kevin Cooper, by my guest journalist 60 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:27.479 and author Jay Patrick O'Connor. Welcome back to the program, 61 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:31.639 and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Jay Patrick O'Connor. 62 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:34.000 Thank you, Den. It's great to be back on your show. 63 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:35.599 Thank you very much. 64 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:39.280 It's going to be a great hour interview for our 65 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:41.960 audience and for myself as well. This is a great book. 66 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:45.960 Now let's go back just like you, very much like 67 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:49.400 you do in the book, Let's go back to Chino' Hills. 68 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:54.280 Describe this community for us, tell us where it is 69 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:56.879 in California for those people that might not know they're 70 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:00.280 tuning in from other places in America and elsewhere, and 71 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:05.120 also tell us about the Ryans of Chino Hills. 72 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:12.560 Okay, Chino Hills is forty five miles east of Los Angeles, 73 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:18.279 Los Angeles County. It's the biggest county in the lower 74 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:22.920 forty eight states, and its biggest by far. It's as 75 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:28.079 large as nine states in the United States. Right. It's humongous. 76 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:33.399 There's eleven substations in the the you know, the sheriff, 77 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:39.199 the Sheriff's San Bernardo Sheriff's office has eleven substations. It's huge. 78 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:44.480 And the Ryans they lived in this little corner of 79 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:50.399 San Bernardino County called Chino Hills. They were Arabian. They 80 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:55.000 lived in an Arabian horse community. They had a hilltop house, 81 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:58.920 a hilltop ranch house, and their neighbors all raised like 82 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:07.480 they did, Arabian horses, right, and they were chiropractors by trade. 83 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:11.439 They're both forty one years old, Doug and Peggy Ryan, 84 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:16.279 and they had these they had two children, Jessica and 85 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:21.319 Josh ten and eight and a half. And they lived 86 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:25.639 in this, you know of kind of idyllic life that 87 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:28.720 they had going there. They were doing exactly what they 88 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:33.319 wanted to be doing, raising Peggy. Peggy was devoted to 89 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:38.879 showing and raising, breeding and showing these Arabian horses. And 90 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:45.399 Doug worked as a chiropractor at a clinic and nearby 91 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:50.079 nearby clinic Santa Anna. So that's kind of the scene. 92 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:56.040 That's what's worth. That's where they are. And down the road, 93 00:05:56.120 --> 00:06:00.680 three miles down the road from Chino Hills is a 94 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:04.959 very large prison complex called the California Institute for Men, 95 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:11.879 which houses forty five hundred or so felons. Anybody any wanting, 96 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:16.720 anybody convicted of a crime in southern California is processed 97 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:22.879 through the California Institute for Men. And Kevin Cooper was 98 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:26.759 arrested in nineteen eighty three on the basis of uh 99 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:31.360 two burglaries in Los Angeles. The city of Los Angeles. 100 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:35.319 But when he was arrested, he was he gave him 101 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:39.480 a phony, an idea that he'd stolen from a inmate 102 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:45.560 in a hospital, a psychiatric hospital in Pennsylvania. Right, this 103 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:47.920 is a kind of, you know, it kind of a 104 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:51.439 screwed up case. But when they when they arrest him, 105 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:55.319 he shows this, he shows this false height ID and 106 00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:00.639 the guy's name was David Troupman. And when they processing 107 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.639 and when when they put him on trial for the burglaries, 108 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:09.720 he just does a plea. He pleads to you know, 109 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:13.800 I think he pled the four years to run consecutively 110 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:18.279 under the name of David Trautman. So when they're processing 111 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:22.879 Kevin cooper at at Chino, at Chino at the California 112 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:25.600 Institute for Men, and they process him as David Trautman, 113 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:28.399 who had no arrest in California because he never set 114 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:32.199 foot in California. He lives in Pennsylvania. And so they 115 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:37.560 put him in minimum security. And the first day he 116 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:39.959 was in minimum security, I mean he slept there one night, 117 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:44.360 and then next morning or excuse me, next afternoon, he 118 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:46.560 walks out. He just walks out the front door of 119 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:49.920 through a hole of the fence. There's no guards on 120 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:57.120 the perimeter here, and he walks his way through countryside 121 00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:01.319 to you know, three miles down. He comes into this 122 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:07.319 Arabian horse country and he finds this garage that looks 123 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.399 like it's the door slightly open, and he opens it up. 124 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.120 Nobody seems to be in the house, and he holds 125 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:17.720 up there for two days. And this house is one 126 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:21.879 hundred and twenty five yards below the Ryan's house. It's 127 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:25.040 such a steep hill though, that he can't even see 128 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:27.720 the Ryan's house from where he is. It's just straight up. 129 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:32.000 I've been there. It's just impossible, particularly that time of 130 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:35.039 year when this was June of nineteen eighty three, when 131 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:39.080 all the trees are in bloom. You can't see you 132 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:42.200 couldn't see the place. But anyway, that's where he is. 133 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:48.399 And the Ryans are Ryan's and their daughter and a 134 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:52.480 house guest are brutally murdered on a Saturday night, around 135 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:58.200 midnight on June the fifth, nineteen eighty three. And when 136 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:01.279 they find out that Cooper had holed up in this 137 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:07.240 house for two days, as you said in your introduction, 138 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:12.759 the Sam Bernardino Homicide Department, they just fixed in, fixed 139 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:16.480 in on him. As the you know here, they said, well, 140 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:18.799 this makes a lot of sense. Here's an escape convict, 141 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:23.320 and they just made him their number one suspect and 142 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:25.120 in fact said he was the one. 143 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:28.320 Now let's let's go back pat because I think we're 144 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:30.799 gonna We've got to make sure that we our audience 145 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:34.039 understands this as well. Now to be fair too, as 146 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.480 well as that Kevin Cooper has a sort of a 147 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:39.240 history and that sort of he has a history of 148 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:43.200 escaping and running away, and you've you've provided that he does, 149 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:46.320 so you can talk about that. But what I wanted 150 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:49.240 to make sure that we understand is that what is 151 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:53.759 Kevin Cooper's background. Okay, he pled guilty to burglary, he's 152 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:56.799 using an assumed name, but tell us about a little 153 00:09:56.840 --> 00:10:00.480 bit more about Kevin Cooper and his criminal past, so 154 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:03.399 that we have a good idea if Kevin Cooper, even 155 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:06.120 in our minds, could be capable of such murders. And 156 00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:10.320 it is very important later on and obviously, well. 157 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:12.559 Kevin since age you know, I hate to say this, 158 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:16.000 I mean I really do, but since age seven or eight, 159 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:22.840 he was stealing things and at age thirteen or so 160 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:25.559 he started getting arrested for stealing things. He would break 161 00:10:25.559 --> 00:10:31.159 into empty buildings, empty houses, and he had a proclivity 162 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:36.000 for stealing cars. One time, when I interviewed him, I said, 163 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:38.440 how many cars have you did you steal? Kevin? He said, 164 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:40.320 I hate to tell you this, but I stole it 165 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:41.919 over two hundred cars. 166 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:43.480 Okay. 167 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:47.360 So he is a at the time. I mean, he's 168 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:51.600 twenty five when this terrible crime happens. He's a career 169 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:58.840 criminal since age Jesus, I'd say thirteen at least. And 170 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:01.360 at one point he was he was he was in 171 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:06.360 prison in Pennsylvania on one of these work release programs 172 00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:09.279 where you get out off the grounds, and he walked 173 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:11.720 away from that prison. He was like twenty two at 174 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:15.080 the time. He just walked off from the from the job. 175 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:17.120 You know, he's on the city street. He just walked 176 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:21.039 off and escape. And so they caught him and they 177 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:24.399 added twelve months to his sentence and he served that 178 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:28.799 in more of a maximum security kind of penitentiary, and 179 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:34.639 then he was caught again. After he was paroled, he 180 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:38.759 got caught again at age twenty four for stealing stuff. 181 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:44.840 And before they they were gonna he was convicted, he 182 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:48.200 pled out. He pled out, It pled out, but before 183 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:54.279 they could sentence him, he either feigned or contended that 184 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:58.639 he had he was having hallucinations or some of that sort. 185 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:01.320 And so the judge asked, said he should be sent 186 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:04.960 to this mental hospital, state mental hospital in Pennsylvania for 187 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:10.720 pre sentencing evaluation. And he was there for like three weeks, 188 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:15.720 and from there he just walked out one night and escaped. 189 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.279 He walked out through a window on a bowling now 190 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:21.559 they had in this place, and escaped again. So this 191 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:24.960 was his second escape. Now, the point about him using 192 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:29.720 this phony idea of David Trutman was that had had 193 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:32.639 it been known in California that this guy had escaped 194 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:39.840 twice from Pennsylvania penitentiaries or state mental hospitals, he would 195 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:43.320 have been put in maximum security, right but as the 196 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:46.759 as known as David Trumpman, with no other record other 197 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.480 than these two burglaries, he was classified as a minimum 198 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:54.720 security risk. And you know, I mean the first day 199 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.240 he's in minimum security, the first night after he sleeps there, 200 00:12:58.279 --> 00:12:59.639 he walks away again. 201 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:04.679 Now, was there any and did he indicate any other 202 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.000 prisoners that he was going to escape. 203 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.799 Or did you just now didn't? 204 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:12.200 Sorry? 205 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:14.360 What did he do for those two days now he 206 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:17.519 goes he finds this what you call a garage, and yeah. 207 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:21.080 My garage. He sees this garage door slightly at Jarry. 208 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:24.279 He opens it up and then they seize there's you know, 209 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:26.440 it's him. I mean, there's nobody in the garage. And 210 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:28.559 then he kind of opens the door of the kitchen 211 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.480 and he doesn't see anybody in there. Now, this is 212 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:35.840 a house that has periodically lived in a matter of fact, 213 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:38.440 the woman who had lived in there for like the 214 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:42.080 last seven eight months had just moved out the day before. 215 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:45.840 This is really you know, like you know, you talk 216 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:47.600 about being the wrong place at the wrong time. If 217 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:50.000 any of these things had changed slightly, Kevin would have 218 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.279 never been in this house. I'll say the woman had 219 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:55.279 left two days later instead of the day she did leave, 220 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:58.080 he would have never gone into the house because it 221 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:03.360 was occupied. But she left, and so he found the 222 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:07.480 house to be empty and on. So this is a Friday, 223 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:12.279 Friday night, and then Saturday morning, about ten o'clock, a 224 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:15.159 woman who does live there, like you know, she comes in. 225 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.360 She and her husband live there like one week in 226 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.039 a month, and they have stuff in the one and 227 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.480 there's there's four bedrooms only one of the bedrooms has 228 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:28.159 anything in it, a bed and some closet with toiletries 229 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:31.120 in the bathroom. She comes in to get her sweater 230 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:35.840 on Saturday morning about ten o'clock and Kevin now realizes 231 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:38.879 that this is no longer a safe place for him 232 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:42.720 to be right, so he makes up his mind that 233 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:46.399 that night he will leave at dark. Now he is 234 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:49.120 the only black person in Chino Hills, so he waits 235 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:53.799 for dark and he begins the hitchhike to to the 236 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:59.440 United States the Mexico Mexico border down near Tiawana, right, 237 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:02.039 and he takes He catches two rides to get him there, 238 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:05.799 doesn't he doesn't have a dime on him. He spends 239 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.240 the night in the bus station on the United States 240 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:14.320 side of the border, and the next morning, typical Kevin, 241 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.840 he takes he robs a woman, takes a person of 242 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:25.000 a woman's It's kind of lucky for him. It's got 243 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.879 one hundred and five dollars in quarters in these rolls 244 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:32.399 inside this person about forty dollars in cash, right, so 245 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:35.879 he now has enough money to actually get by for 246 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:40.240 a few days. He crosses the border into Tijuana and 247 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:43.159 he buys himself a room he rents a room and 248 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.679 it's for six dollars a night in a hotel in Tijwan. 249 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.200 So that's around you know, that's that's the next day. 250 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:56.080 This will be Sunday. Now that night I said, these 251 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:02.440 murders happened around midnight. The Ryan's and all the other 252 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:05.320 people who lived in this area of Chino Hills, they 253 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:08.080 are all horse people of one sort of one sort 254 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:11.960 of another. There was a couple that drove off that 255 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:15.399 was dropping off a trainer after a day at the races. 256 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:20.399 They dropped a trainer off on the only road that 257 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:24.399 leads away from the Ryansill Top house. This one road 258 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:29.240 comes down and these people are after they dropped him off. 259 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:31.559 They're waiting to come out the driveway and they can't 260 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.440 come out because there's this car just barreling down this road. 261 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:38.519 And they look in the car and they see three 262 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:42.240 white men and what is it? Turns out to be 263 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:47.279 the Ryan family. This is the murdered family. They're stolen 264 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:51.279 station wagon. They see a station wagon, they see three 265 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:55.320 white people in it. So when the murders are announced, 266 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:57.480 when it becomes big news the next day, this is 267 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:00.000 the biggest crime, by the way in San Bernardino County 268 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:05.680 History number one. It's his big. It's more brutal, it's 269 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:08.799 more gross than the Tate, you know, the Manson murder, 270 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:13.000 Manson murders, the Tate LaBianca murders. These are worse to 271 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:18.640 the crowd brutality of these murders. So anyway, this couple 272 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.759 calls in the next day and says they sell three 273 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:21.680 white guys in a car. 274 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:23.880 Well. 275 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:27.119 The Ryans had an the Ryans, besides their daughter, they 276 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:29.960 had this eight and a half year old son named Josh, 277 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:33.240 and he was left for dead that night. And all 278 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:37.039 this occurred in the master bedroom. He's left for dead 279 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:40.960 with his throat slashed ear to ear, he's got a 280 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:43.640 hatchet one in his back, he's he's got a knife 281 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:51.079 wound in his chest, collapses along. The perpetrators think he's dead. 282 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.799 And but anyway, he survives this, miraculously survives. And the 283 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:01.440 next morning, around noon, the father of the other boy 284 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:07.119 who's there it's just spending the night, he discovers what's happening. 285 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:09.279 He can look through the master bedroom and he sees 286 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:13.200 this terrible scene. But he also can see that Josh 287 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:16.480 can move. So Josh makes a small movement and the 288 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:21.839 father comes in and Josh can't speak, and they call 289 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:26.079 nine one one. They airvak him to a nearby hospital 290 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:33.880 and at the emergency room they've devised this communications system 291 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:36.759 of a chart with all the letters of the alphabet 292 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:40.160 and the letters one through nine, I mean, the numbers 293 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:44.279 one through nine and the words yes and no. And 294 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:48.000 so they take him through his name, his address, his 295 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.079 phone number. He gets all this stuff right. Then they 296 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:55.839 say who attacks you? And he laboriously goes through this 297 00:18:55.880 --> 00:19:03.480 process of identifying three white men. So this is on Sunday, 298 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:07.160 and this would be the next morning, this couple would 299 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:10.000 call in about three white men. So we had these 300 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:16.440 two eyewitness identifications of three white men involved in the 301 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:20.880 Ryan murders, you know, right out there on day one. 302 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:22.319 Okay, excuse me. 303 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:27.079 Now, now you've you've alluded to these murders. And anybody 304 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:28.640 that's going to buy this book is going to get 305 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:33.200 these details on anybody listening to this program can handle 306 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:38.480 those details. Details are important because later it's contented. 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The conditions of the plus 329 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:46.200 website retails for. 330 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:48.720 All of these people killed them, So describe the crime 331 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:54.200 scene itself, including the very again very rare occurrence of 332 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:59.039 posing and displaying these bodies, which again is in criminal profiling, 333 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:03.279 indicate again a very rare creature. So tell us exactly 334 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:06.359 what this crime scene entails, because this will be important 335 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:10.319 when we try to, you know, perceive whether Kevin Cooper 336 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:13.160 was capable of this or these other three people. 337 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:16.880 Well, number one, Kevin Cooper is one hundred and fifty pounds. 338 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:21.319 He's six foot tall, but he's very thin. Doug Ryan 339 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:25.000 is six foot one, two hundred and ninety pounds. I mean, 340 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:28.160 excuse me, one hundred and ninety pounds. He's an ex 341 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:33.839 marine MP, you know, one of these really tough marines. 342 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:36.160 You have to you have to be able to handle 343 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:38.319 yourself to be an MP, because that's what you do. 344 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.880 You handle other marines. You arrest other marines, right, okay. 345 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:44.680 And his wife is five foot eight, one hundred and 346 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:47.119 forty five pounds, and she is the one who raises 347 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:53.640 these enormous Arabian horses. She trains them, she lists bells, 348 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:57.960 of hey, she's an incredibly strong person. Both these Ryans 349 00:21:58.039 --> 00:22:03.079 have loaded weapons in their master bedroom. Beggy has a 350 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:08.759 ruger pistol. Doug has a loaded rifle with a scope. 351 00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:12.240 I mean these guns are found right after their bodies 352 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:17.920 are discovered, these weapons are loaded all right. The scene. 353 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:21.720 There's blood everywhere in this room. It's incredible, as I 354 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:24.359 said it was, It's worse than I don't care what 355 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:28.079 people think about the Tate Lapianca merkers murders. These are worse. 356 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:31.359 There's blood everywhere. There's blood on every single thing in 357 00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:35.440 this room. This is a royal battlefield where these people 358 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:40.759 fought for their lives like fiends. They have twenty five 359 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.559 defensive wounds on all the people in this all the 360 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.880 people in this attack, Doug and Peggy Ryan have all 361 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.960 these defensive wounds in their hands and their arms. The 362 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:55.240 little girl, she has the most defensive wounds. She fought, 363 00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:59.960 She fought as hard as she could fight. So they're 364 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.119 this battle going on in here. The little girl makes 365 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:06.359 it outside the house for a while. She actually was 366 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:10.720 able to get outside and be brought back in. So 367 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.759 anybody who would say that one perpetrator could have done 368 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:17.920 this is just you know, ignoring every single thing you 369 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:21.920 anybody else would just deduce, is that it's an impossibility. 370 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:27.839 The people go ahead sting, so the weapon re used 371 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:30.000 as well as that there's a hatchet. 372 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:35.519 Yeah, and the other thing. The other it's so counterintuitive 373 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:39.599 to the degree. Here here you've got the murder weapons 374 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.720 are a hatchet, you know what some people call an axe, 375 00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:45.799 but it's a hatchet or an axe, okay. And then 376 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:50.680 there's two knives. The uh the medical examiner when he 377 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.480 examined the bodies at the crime scene and then he 378 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.319 did the autopsies, he said that least two knives had 379 00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:01.480 to be involved. When this became inconvenient for the county 380 00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:07.440 prosecutor to you know, having now four weapons because another 381 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.519 weapon used was an ice pick, when it became inconvenient 382 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:15.240 to have two knives, the medical examiner, even though we 383 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.359 turned down any notion that there was there could have 384 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:21.240 been one knive inolved one knife involved. 385 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:21.599 It's right. 386 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.160 In his report he could not see the possibility of 387 00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:27.279 one knife. It had to be two because of the 388 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:31.039 different kinds of cuts to these knives made. But at 389 00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:35.400 the preliminary hearing he backs away, he says there's two knives. 390 00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.720 And then they have a recess and the preliminary hearing 391 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.640 and district attorney takes him to another room. He comes 392 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:43.359 back on the stand under oath and says, all right, 393 00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:47.920 it's one knife. But anyway, despite that so you've got 394 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:52.759 three weapons that they admit to, and here's the picture. 395 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:57.160 You've got this one assailant. Why would he or what's 396 00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.480 the why would he or how could he use three 397 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.480 weapons of one time? Where where where are these weapons? 398 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:05.359 If two of them are in his hands, where's the 399 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:05.880 other one? 400 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:08.359 And where did he get them from? Is there any 401 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:10.200