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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to another exciting episode of the nonprofits where he

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<v Speaker 1>can smell the holiday season a time of joy, love,

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<v Speaker 1>and apparently controversy. Solid Rock Bible Church and Iowas decided

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<v Speaker 1>to spice up their Nativity scene by adding King Herod,

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<v Speaker 1>the infamous ruler who supposedly ordered the mascre of babies

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<v Speaker 1>in attempt to kill Jesus. For extra player, they've labeled

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<v Speaker 1>him an atheist, because what better way to celebrate the

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<v Speaker 1>season than comparing non believers to a murderous tyrant. It's

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<v Speaker 1>worth noting that the story of Herod's massacre is only

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<v Speaker 1>found in one of the four Gospels and isn't supported

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<v Speaker 1>in historical records, but hey, why let details get in

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<v Speaker 1>the way of a good holiday narrative. What was once

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<v Speaker 1>a simple Nativity scene is now turned into a battleground

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<v Speaker 1>for debates on public displays, religious freedom, and a naturally

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<v Speaker 1>holiday drama. Ah the true spirit of Christmas. This story

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<v Speaker 1>is from kg An by Nick L hajj And on

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<v Speaker 1>November eight, twenty twenty four. I have to admit I

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<v Speaker 1>found this a little interesting, but sendy, how did you

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<v Speaker 1>feel about the portrayal of Herod as the atheist? In

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<v Speaker 1>the church display. Do you think the comparisons of valid

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<v Speaker 1>comparison are Is it a bit of a misrepresentation.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I think it's totally accurate because we keep hearing

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<v Speaker 2>Hitler was an atheist, Stallion was an atheist, and now

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<v Speaker 2>we get Herold was an atheist because he murdered babies.

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<v Speaker 2>He's pureval therefore he is an atheist. That's that's their

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<v Speaker 2>argument in a nutshell. So no, I'm not surprised. It's

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<v Speaker 2>just business as usual from some theists. Although something that

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<v Speaker 2>this OCCCLE reminding me is that atheists regularly score extremely high,

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<v Speaker 2>usually highest or second highest, as the most disliked group

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<v Speaker 2>in the US, with about forty percent of people claiming

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<v Speaker 2>to dislike them. It's like us, so it's not surprising

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<v Speaker 2>to see those kind of associations between generally accepted bad

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<v Speaker 2>people and atheists. It's to me it's interesting because I

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<v Speaker 2>don't see that in Europe. In the US, it seems

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<v Speaker 2>that you're accepted as long as you believe in something,

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<v Speaker 2>even if you believe is different than Christianity, You're more

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<v Speaker 2>accepted than if you don't believe in anything. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's at the root cause of this is this

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<v Speaker 2>belief that if you don't believe in a God, then

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<v Speaker 2>you cannot be moral. That's so ingrained into the belief

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<v Speaker 2>of most Christian sets in the US that I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>surprised that this is the outcome.

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<v Speaker 1>I did find it almost humorous how to dimension all

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<v Speaker 1>they played this concept. But AJ, how do you see

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<v Speaker 1>the Church's inclusion of Herod into the Nativity scene anyway?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you find it a bit ironic? I mean, what

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<v Speaker 1>evidence is there for this actual infant massacre in this

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<v Speaker 1>one gospel that talks.

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<v Speaker 3>About Yeah, the irony is unreal. Like a Sindy pointed out,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, the Church chose to include King Herod because he,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, specifically, is portrayed as a baby killer that

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<v Speaker 3>ordered the murder of all infants and there are the

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<v Speaker 3>age of two in Bethlehem in order to hopefully kill Jesus.

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<v Speaker 3>And so they see that as something to be related

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<v Speaker 3>to atheism, to lack of belief. But they seem to

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<v Speaker 3>completely ignore the fact that the very God that they

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<v Speaker 3>worship also order the murder of all babies in Egypt

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<v Speaker 3>in the story in the Bible that they suddenly forget,

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<v Speaker 3>like the entire story of Moses in their own book.

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<v Speaker 3>But mind you, there is absolutely no evidence outside of

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<v Speaker 3>the Bible to say that King Herod ever order the

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<v Speaker 3>killing of all infants. You know, the Bible experts do

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<v Speaker 3>not accept this part of the story because the only

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<v Speaker 3>mention of this is in Matthew's gospel. And while he,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, surely was known for mistweating his citizens or

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<v Speaker 3>having some of them killed, which what king hasn't right,

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<v Speaker 3>but there is no extra biblical evidence that indicates that

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<v Speaker 3>he ever mass murdered infants at any point in his way,

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<v Speaker 3>And there is no historical evidence of this. But you see,

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<v Speaker 3>we are able to corroborate that he existed how he would,

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<v Speaker 3>and he ruled where he ruled, but nothing about killing babies.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's just get another case of because the Bible

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<v Speaker 3>tells me so, and you cannot tell me otherwise.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you mentioned Matthew because that's where the story comes from. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>Matthew talks about zombies near the end of the book

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<v Speaker 1>because he talks about after Jesus died, you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>grays opening up in Jerusalem. So we know Matthew. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>the author of Matthew was more than a little creative

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<v Speaker 1>and theatrical, so to speak. But speaking of theatrics, Rob,

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<v Speaker 1>what is your view on the theatrics of the Nativity

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<v Speaker 1>scene with King Herod? And you also, I know that

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<v Speaker 1>the Satanic Temple has done statues of bapha Met. What

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<v Speaker 1>do you see going on here? How do you view

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<v Speaker 1>these theatrics in general?

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<v Speaker 4>It's more spectacle, which is great, people love it. It's

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<v Speaker 4>not quite the same when you compare what they've done

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<v Speaker 4>with King Herod and Aphamet, because what they did with

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<v Speaker 4>King Herod is point out another group that they want

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<v Speaker 4>to demonize, whereas the statues of Baphomet is about their own,

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<v Speaker 4>their own organization. So it's not quite the same, but

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<v Speaker 4>it's still they're putting up a thing to incite a

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<v Speaker 4>feeling in people. They know what they're doing. They want

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<v Speaker 4>to make people look at it and go, oh, that's awful,

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<v Speaker 4>Whereas with King Herod it's like, oh, yeah, I can

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<v Speaker 4>identify with them. They're trying to kill baby Jesus and

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<v Speaker 4>that makes me upset. So it's it's really similar. If

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<v Speaker 4>it wasn't like, just like, it's all very gross to

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<v Speaker 4>me because they're trying to demonize an entire group of

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<v Speaker 4>people who have a lack of belief, and the amount

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<v Speaker 4>of people who do not have a religion has been

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<v Speaker 4>increasing in America for I don't know how long. It's

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<v Speaker 4>still not a majority, but it is increasing. Given all

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<v Speaker 4>of that, I think it's funny. I thought that the

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<v Speaker 4>Nativity scene was really fun with the way that they

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<v Speaker 4>have it displayed, especially because King Herod has atheists written

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<v Speaker 4>right across his heads, so we know we know who

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<v Speaker 4>we're talking about, and then they gave him fangs, it was,

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<v Speaker 4>and he's just like he's creeping up on Baby Jesus,

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<v Speaker 4>and I actually thought it was hilarious.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I think he hit on one really important thing.

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<v Speaker 1>You said demonize several times, and then I think you

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<v Speaker 1>nailed it with the difference between atheists on a completely

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<v Speaker 1>over the top fictional character with fangs demonizing literally compared

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<v Speaker 1>to Bapha met where really what the Satanic Temple's trying

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<v Speaker 1>to do is normalize. So it's almost like they're going

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<v Speaker 1>the opposite sides of the same sensational coin, though, but

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<v Speaker 1>for opposite goals.

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<v Speaker 4>I think it's now, say really quick, I think it's

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<v Speaker 4>funny you say that because in this case they're trying

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<v Speaker 4>to demonizing demonize using King Herod and then they then

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<v Speaker 4>the Church of Satan is putting up a little a

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<v Speaker 4>real demon uh, and it's much less demonic.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, they're well, you know't understand you got to understand that.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that you really illustrated very well. Rob the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that it's a very two dimensional. It's almost like

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<v Speaker 1>they're making fun of their own story if they stepped

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<v Speaker 1>back for a second, because whatever story. If I'm telling

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<v Speaker 1>you a story in real life and all of a

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<v Speaker 1>sudden I tell you about some creature coming in with fangs,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I just think I've lost all credibility on

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<v Speaker 1>the whole story. So they take their most important story

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<v Speaker 1>and they throw a big bad atheist herod with fangs.

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<v Speaker 1>They should have done, you know, eyes and horns and

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<v Speaker 1>maybe even a pitchfork to make sure, because they're not

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<v Speaker 1>exactly subtle. I guess subtlety is not the strong suit.

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<v Speaker 1>But Sindy, do you do you think they are broader

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<v Speaker 1>implications with people doing this? And is this a good

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<v Speaker 1>thing or a bad thing for us? Do you think

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<v Speaker 1>people are gonna look at this and go, wow, this

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of absurd or do you think they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to buy into the stereotype.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I think it's mostly harmless. To be honest, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think it will have much impact, and I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think it should have a lot of impact because it

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<v Speaker 2>was as opposed to the Nativity scenes that was previously prevented.

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<v Speaker 2>This was on a private field. So I don't see

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<v Speaker 2>how or why we should legislate or say anything about this.

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<v Speaker 2>Even though I believe, personally believe that the First Amendment

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<v Speaker 2>crowd in the US is exaggerated. Like I think our

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<v Speaker 2>rights should be limited, including free speech, I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>in this case it's yeah, okay, it's herod. It has

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<v Speaker 2>things that says atheists, but it's to it, it's it's hominus.

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<v Speaker 3>It's uh.

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<v Speaker 2>I really don't see anything too much wrong, apart from

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<v Speaker 2>the idea that it might trigger or an over response

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<v Speaker 2>and then and over response and and you know, but

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<v Speaker 2>apart from that, I don't think it's it's it's such

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<v Speaker 2>a big deal.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that it's going to feed the stereotype

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<v Speaker 1>to those who already had that deeply ingrain and aren't

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<v Speaker 1>looking for something different. But I do think that the

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<v Speaker 1>best thing they could do is go ahead and throw

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<v Speaker 1>in a couple of Disney characters and Nightmare before Christmas

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<v Speaker 1>and really hype up their Nativity scene like, yeah, there

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<v Speaker 1>we go, because really it's a work of fiction. So

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<v Speaker 1>what let's of Why shouldn't Bugs, Bunny and Herod both

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<v Speaker 1>be in it? But I think that you touch on

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<v Speaker 1>an important point. And also, this is private property and

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<v Speaker 1>if they want to do that, hey, that that that's

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<v Speaker 1>on them. But Aja, what do you think about public

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<v Speaker 1>spaces being used? Because I I know that some of

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<v Speaker 1>this as a reaction to a previous scene being taken

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<v Speaker 1>down because it was on public property. So what do

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<v Speaker 1>you think about the whole public spaces for religious displays,

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<v Speaker 1>with or without Herod?

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<v Speaker 3>I would say that as far as using public spaces

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<v Speaker 3>for religious displays, the short answer is fun. But the

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<v Speaker 3>long answer is that it seems that a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>people were upset that Scott, the person that brought the

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<v Speaker 3>whole issue up, got involved in the removal of the

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<v Speaker 3>firehouse Nativity seen because he didn't live in that town.

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<v Speaker 3>That is why they were upset. So they claim that

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<v Speaker 3>the request from the Freedom from Religion Foundation that he contacted,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know, they put the complaint to the city

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<v Speaker 3>was attempting to take away their heritage. But heritage shouldn't

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<v Speaker 3>be something that is publicly displayed in a place that

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<v Speaker 3>uses taxpayer dollars function right, like in a power station.

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<v Speaker 3>Like I think what they don't realize is that what

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<v Speaker 3>he did is a good thing. He didn't look away

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<v Speaker 3>and say not my town, not my problem. Like do

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<v Speaker 3>I think that there's other things that shouldn't You know

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<v Speaker 3>that we shouldn't stick on us into absolutely, But in

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<v Speaker 3>the case of public spaces, yes, I do think that

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<v Speaker 3>everyone needs to advocate for those that are making bad

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<v Speaker 3>decisions in those spaces and to realize why those decisions

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<v Speaker 3>are not white, or why they're not helpful to all

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<v Speaker 3>of the citizens that are affected by it. So if

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<v Speaker 3>they respected the Constitution and the freedom of religion, they

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<v Speaker 3>wouldn't find themselves in these situations.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, maybe if we could have Hugy, Lewis, and

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<v Speaker 1>Dewey as the three wise men, I might be agreeable

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<v Speaker 1>to a Nativity scene with on public ground. But seriously, Rob,

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<v Speaker 1>do you think this is because well here I am

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<v Speaker 1>talking about how old I am. Do you think a

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<v Speaker 1>Satanic panic version two point zero? Do you think that's

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<v Speaker 1>something that's likely?

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<v Speaker 4>Ultimately? No, I think again, because they are more non

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<v Speaker 4>religious people than has ever been in America is going up.

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<v Speaker 4>The Satanic panic version two point zero Satanic Panic two

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<v Speaker 4>electric Boogaloo is less likely to happen as a widespread thing.

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<v Speaker 4>I do not think it is a coincidence that if

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<v Speaker 4>we think back to like the nineteen fifties, where more

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<v Speaker 4>people were more religious, and then as people became less

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<v Speaker 4>religious generally or they're differently religioned, at the same time,

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<v Speaker 4>the super entrenched Christians, especially with their persecution complex, have

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<v Speaker 4>taken over more and more of the government. Now one

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<v Speaker 4>could say that the government was predominantly Christian before that,

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<v Speaker 4>and I would largely agree obviously, but laws and systems

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<v Speaker 4>have been put in place, you know, like the gerrymannering

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<v Speaker 4>of pick that going. So it's kind of for that reason.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think a Satanic panic is likely to happen,

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<v Speaker 4>because that requires an outbreak among the mass population, and

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<v Speaker 4>I just don't think that's going to happen because there's

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<v Speaker 4>just fewer Christians, that's it.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that's.

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<v Speaker 1>Part of why they react the way they do, because

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<v Speaker 1>I think they're realizing that the handwriting on the wall

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<v Speaker 1>is really not in their favor, but sending.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I wanted to complete what Rob was saying by

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<v Speaker 2>saying that I think it's right in the idea that

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<v Speaker 2>there won't be a new set and in panic, especially

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<v Speaker 2>because I think in the next four years we will

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<v Speaker 2>see a lot of encroaching of their religious on the

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<v Speaker 2>Perfect space, and probably in five or six years we

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<v Speaker 2>will see a lot of victimization from the Christian because

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<v Speaker 2>they will stop losing some of the privilege they will

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<v Speaker 2>gain in the next four years. So yes, I think

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<v Speaker 2>there will be four years now where religion is going

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<v Speaker 2>to take over in a lot of places, especially with

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<v Speaker 2>the Supreme Court. You guys have a lot of protections

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<v Speaker 2>against religion encroachment on the perfect sphere and on education,

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<v Speaker 2>on everything like that. I think a lot of this

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<v Speaker 2>is going to disappear and Christians are going to take

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<v Speaker 2>back their privileged position and there will be a backlash

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<v Speaker 2>after in five six years. I think that there are

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<v Speaker 2>elections again in five years.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think what you said earlier though, you made

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<v Speaker 3>a good point that it seems kind of harmless, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>this display, But at the same time, what you just

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<v Speaker 3>pointed out that is the harm right there, like it

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<v Speaker 3>actually is coming into private spaces. The part about it

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<v Speaker 3>being displayed at the fire station that was a public

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<v Speaker 3>space is different from it being displayed at the church.

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<v Speaker 3>At the churches were find it harmless at the fire station,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't, and I think in this specific case, like

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<v Speaker 3>we can absolutely respect the church's right to display whatever

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<v Speaker 3>type of Nativity is seen they wanted to write, even

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<v Speaker 3>if it demonizes eighties, simply because, like I said, it

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<v Speaker 3>is a private space and churches are protected by religious

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<v Speaker 3>freedom laws which allows them to practice the faith, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>without government meddling in their business. So that's fine, Like

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<v Speaker 3>we should respect that that. I'm completely okay with that.

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<v Speaker 3>It's kind of the same way that the Satanic Temple

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<v Speaker 3>is allowed to display, you know, Satan figures and however

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<v Speaker 3>the vision on their properties, even if it drives questions

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<v Speaker 3>insane because of freedom of religion, and it should go

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<v Speaker 3>both ways. So but I think the problem here is

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<v Speaker 3>that the pastor only did this to stick it to

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<v Speaker 3>the eightiest because you know, he's angry that somebody called

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<v Speaker 3>him out on their bold shit when they were putting it,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, all this Christian display at a public space

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<v Speaker 3>in the fire station, and he said that every nativity

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<v Speaker 3>is seen has to have a herald to remind us

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<v Speaker 3>that Christians, you know, that they are still being persecuted

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<v Speaker 3>and that there is an enemy out there whose real

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<v Speaker 3>goal is to kill and destroy Christ. So instead of

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<v Speaker 3>having some accountability and being like, hey, you know, you're right,

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<v Speaker 3>this is a public space, let us fix it, he

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<v Speaker 3>was just like, well, fuck you. You can tell me

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<v Speaker 3>what to do, even if it's you know, and everybody

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<v Speaker 3>else's space. It's like like a kid that's like pointing

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<v Speaker 3>their their fingers at your nose but not touching it,

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<v Speaker 3>Like look what I can do. It's just childish.

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<v Speaker 4>It's see. The trouble trouble here that I have is

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<v Speaker 4>that harm is relative, because I would not say that

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<v Speaker 4>this is harmless, but I would say that the harm

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<v Speaker 4>that this does is potentially so little that I could

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<v Speaker 4>classify it as that. But I could say that for

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<v Speaker 4>the same reason that I would say that if we

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<v Speaker 4>go look at one of the statues of Bapha Met

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<v Speaker 4>that I find that harmless. But that's because of the

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<v Speaker 4>worldview that I have, And they would say that this

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<v Speaker 4>is not harmless, but I look at it. Go you

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<v Speaker 4>are literally teaching your young children to be scared of

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<v Speaker 4>and hate these people, which is which is harmful? Like

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<v Speaker 4>this is a problem. I also just think it's so

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<v Speaker 4>absurd that I then laugh at it despite the harm

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<v Speaker 4>that it can and will do. So on one sense,

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<v Speaker 4>I kind of look at it as like, you're like,

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<v Speaker 4>methinks the lady doth protest too much. We're like, oh,

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<v Speaker 4>you're You're just pointing out the thing that you're scared of.

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<v Speaker 4>You are showing us the problem you have. This is

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<v Speaker 4>really about you, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and harm can be cumulative or so, like one

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<v Speaker 2>specific event can be homeless or more or less homeless,

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<v Speaker 2>but then an addition of small events like this can

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<v Speaker 2>lead to an effect. So yeah, I agree with you.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm good.

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<v Speaker 3>Rob.

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<v Speaker 4>I was gonna say, I really hope that Nativity sees

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<v Speaker 4>now include King Herod. I just think it's really funny.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that it should be a default. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that atheists should start organizing petitions to encourage all Nativity

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<v Speaker 1>scenes to include a Herod with fans with the words

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<v Speaker 1>atheists with red flaming eyes, because I think this is

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<v Speaker 1>a great testament to how well Christians live up to

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<v Speaker 1>their great commission of reaching everybody because let me ask

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<v Speaker 1>you this, how interested would someone who doesn't believe in

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<v Speaker 1>God be to walk into your church? If that's what

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<v Speaker 1>you had standing outside in front of it. This is

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<v Speaker 1>our beloved Jesus. I think it's a great selling point. Plus,

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<v Speaker 1>as they say, all publicity's good publicity, so it's publicity

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<v Speaker 1>for atheists. So I want to see more king herods.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I want to see in the future.