Speaker 1: Hello, everyone, Welcome to the Tolkien Road. John here, Greta.
Speaker 2: How you doing.
Speaker 3: Hey, yeah, I'm doing pretty good. How are you doing?
Speaker 1: I'm doing pretty well.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's been a bit of busy last like twenty four
Speaker 1: hours for me, but I have emerged from the darkness
Speaker 1: of my work emergency ready to record another episode. So
Speaker 1: hi for what.
Speaker 3: I'm glad that you have emerged.
Speaker 1: I for two. I'm glad. Yeah, yes, episode one six
Speaker 1: Spiritual Insights from Tolkien that will change your life. So
Speaker 1: that's what we're gonna be talking about today. Let me
Speaker 1: begin by saying that we were supposed to record this episode,
Speaker 1: was supposed to be with David Bates from Pines with
Speaker 1: Jack the cs Lewis Podcast, but unfortunately, because of my
Speaker 1: work emergency, we had to kind of I didn't get
Speaker 1: the time to prepare that I normally get, so we
Speaker 1: had to reschedule that with David. So we will be
Speaker 1: doing that episode hopefully, you know, sometime in the next
Speaker 1: you know, next few episodes here pretty soon. So you
Speaker 1: should go check out Pines with Jack regardless. If you
Speaker 1: are a Tolkien fan, then you should know more about C. S. Lewis,
Speaker 1: and you might already be a CS Lewis fan and
Speaker 1: therefore you should just go check it out anyway, So
Speaker 1: word check it. Thanks to our patrons as always, you
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Speaker 1: an eight part guide to the Filmarillion. That is our
Speaker 1: newest thing over there, and we're gonna be doing more
Speaker 1: more videos coming over there. I should really say me
Speaker 1: because Greta has no desire to participate in the YouTube
Speaker 1: aspect of things, which I you know, I can't blame
Speaker 1: her for, but you know, I think she would be
Speaker 1: a star over there.
Speaker 3: But you know you're trying to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm quite content with the podcast.
Speaker 1: More glory, more glory for me.
Speaker 3: That's right, That's right, and it's deserved glory.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you? Yeah, okay, all right, I will. So
Speaker 1: we're going to be current planning for the next few
Speaker 1: episodes were we will get back to that episode with
Speaker 1: David Bates of Pintes with Jack before too long, and
Speaker 1: we are on the on next the next one. We're
Speaker 1: planning to look into Tolkien's political views. So last episode
Speaker 1: we looked at Tolkien's it was called Tolkien versus the Nazis,
Speaker 1: and it was, you know, look into his real like
Speaker 1: contempt and you know, uh, just disdain for Nazi and
Speaker 1: race racist ideology, and uh, I thought that was pretty
Speaker 1: fascinating exploration, Greta. This one is going to be this
Speaker 1: We're going to look at his actual I guess you
Speaker 1: could call them positive political views, not that he was
Speaker 1: a particularly political version person. He certainly wasn't an activist,
Speaker 1: but he still did express a lot of interesting things
Speaker 1: in his letters. And I think there's other there's other
Speaker 1: things we can explore from his own works, like other
Speaker 1: aspects of his fictional works that could maybe speak to
Speaker 1: what his if he had a political philosophy, like what
Speaker 1: might it have looked like?
Speaker 3: So oh, so we're gonna talk politics.
Speaker 1: Well, not not politics in a contemporary sense, okay, because
Speaker 1: we really try to steer clear of like.
Speaker 4: I was going to say, I hate politics, we'll hate them,
Speaker 4: you and me, you and me both, but but more
Speaker 4: of like what did his political because once upon a time,
Speaker 4: like political philosophy.
Speaker 1: Like you know, was I don't know, it seemed a
Speaker 1: little more thoughtful than it does now, like and and
Speaker 1: I just think from what I know of his views,
Speaker 1: I think it'll think I think it'll be a pretty
Speaker 1: interesting topic and help us get closer, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: again to his own heart, which is a lot of
Speaker 1: what this podcast is about. Okay, fair enough, So just
Speaker 1: come to it with an open mind, and you know,
Speaker 1: no no hackles or anything like that. We're not going
Speaker 1: to get into any modern politics or anything like that.
Speaker 1: It's just gonna be more of a discussion of you
Speaker 1: know what, what what were his general views in that area?
Speaker 1: So all right, and then we'll also we'll be doing
Speaker 1: some other interesting things, and then we've got a two
Speaker 1: hundredth episode coming up. Well I've got something I think
Speaker 1: a little fun planned for that. Oh not too fun,
Speaker 1: too boring to be too fun, but but fun in
Speaker 1: my book. And then lots of third age discussion coming
Speaker 1: after that. So yeah, all right, sounds good. All right, So, Greta,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about this little thing I made
Speaker 1: called six Spiritual Insights from Reading Tolkien. It's actually six
Speaker 1: spiritual insights from Tolkien that will change your life. So
Speaker 1: I want to say that this is actually a little
Speaker 1: mini book, mini guide PDF thing that I made a
Speaker 1: few years ago, and I lost track of it for
Speaker 1: a while, but then I was I found it and
Speaker 1: I wanted to get it back out there for people
Speaker 1: to have. If you'd like this, you can head on
Speaker 1: over to tolkienoad dot com slash spirit and that's where
Speaker 1: you can find the guide and find out how to
Speaker 1: download it over there. So that's all you gotta go
Speaker 1: tolkienrooad dot com slash spirit and you can check that
Speaker 1: out and follow along with our discussion, or if you
Speaker 1: listen to our discussion, just go and then you like
Speaker 1: it and you want to know more about what's what's
Speaker 1: in there, head on over that tolkienoad dot com slash spirit.
Speaker 1: So all right, all right, so it's you know, and
Speaker 1: here's the other thing. It's been a pretty dark few weeks,
Speaker 1: you know, especially here in the United States, and then
Speaker 1: this is of course coming on was already kind of
Speaker 1: a dark period in a lot of ways with the
Speaker 1: the COVID nineteen crisis, and that's really going on throughout
Speaker 1: the world. So I really think that, you know, one
Speaker 1: of the themes of Tolkien, one of the great spiritual
Speaker 1: themes of Tolkien is that out of tremendous darkness, out
Speaker 1: of the shadow, good arrives right like, like, we can
Speaker 1: find we can find the good, we can find unity,
Speaker 1: we can find we can find peace. We can find
Speaker 1: beautiful things right emerging from that darkness, true and lasting light.
Speaker 1: And that's that's one of the reasons that you know,
Speaker 1: I thought it might be a good time to spend
Speaker 1: a little time here because I think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of reasons to feel maybe discouraged. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: reasons to feel even despair for a lot of people
Speaker 1: right now. And Tolkien's worldview was one that went into
Speaker 1: you know, it really went into the depths of like
Speaker 1: some really dark places. But there's always that aspect of
Speaker 1: the greater light above it. There's always that aspect of
Speaker 1: this there's some light that sits above all the darkness,
Speaker 1: that's unquenchable and and that ultimately in the end will
Speaker 1: win right, that has the final say. Even when things
Speaker 1: look their darkness, that's maybe when it's about to turn
Speaker 1: right yep, in some magnificent way. So I you know,
Speaker 1: I just hope everybody in this in this episode can
Speaker 1: find what is that heroism that you're being called to,
Speaker 1: that like kind of ordinary heroism that you're being called to,
Speaker 1: and maybe this will help you find that. That's I know,
Speaker 1: that's what Tolkien has been to me in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways over the years. And one of the reasons
Speaker 1: I love his outlook so much is because he helps you.
Speaker 1: He helps you maybe better discern your path to being
Speaker 1: this ordinary hero, not not somebody who's like, look at me,
Speaker 1: I'm so awesome, you know, like like so many people
Speaker 1: can be these days. Right, you know, I'm so wonderful.
Speaker 1: You just need to follow me and I'll tell you
Speaker 1: how everything gets done. This was a guy who was
Speaker 1: just writing books and shared some thoughts, but wrote something
Speaker 1: beautiful because he kind of didn't care what everybody else thought. Right,
Speaker 1: But he followed his call, yep, and he did something
Speaker 1: amazing for the world. Right. So, so, yeah, why I
Speaker 1: wrote this, it's really this pdf, this little mini guide
Speaker 1: is really it's about what drew me. It what drew
Speaker 1: me to Tolkien in the first place. It's not really
Speaker 1: for me. It's never been for me about the the
Speaker 1: dungeons and dragons, if you will, right.
Speaker 3: The fantasy part of it is that what you yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like. And don't get me wrong, I like all
Speaker 1: that stuff. I think that stuff's cool, right yeah, but
Speaker 1: it's it's not like Tolkien exists for me. And you
Speaker 1: obviously know this. You'll obviously know this because this is
Speaker 1: episode one seven of a podcast just about Tolkien. But
Speaker 1: it's not like Tolkien is just like another like fantasy author.
Speaker 1: For me, there's something much greater, much deeper in his
Speaker 1: works than I find in most other works of that genre.
Speaker 1: And and I think a lot of the people who
Speaker 1: work in that genre would salute him in that way too, Right,
Speaker 1: So lost my place, All right, there we go, So
Speaker 1: I would call that why I wrote this is really
Speaker 1: I wanted to explore a little bit more and share
Speaker 1: with you all the philosophical, moral, and spiritual fibers of
Speaker 1: his works, right, those underlying, those underlying, undergirding aspects of
Speaker 1: the stories of Middle Earth and the other writings that
Speaker 1: he had, and get to things that can actually be
Speaker 1: transformative for our lives, right, that can actually pull us
Speaker 1: out of a dark place, that can actually give us
Speaker 1: hope for the future, that can transform who we are
Speaker 1: and help us find meaning, right, a deeper and greater meaning, right,
Speaker 1: and a lasting meaning to a meaning that even transcends death. Right. So,
Speaker 1: so that's where I'm coming from. Thoughts.
Speaker 3: No, I think that's I mean, no, I think it's good. Okay,
Speaker 3: I think I think that's a really beautiful even right on.
Speaker 1: Okay, first point, first section, Who we are subcreators?
Speaker 2: All?
Speaker 1: So what did this section say to you, Greta?
Speaker 3: Well, it basically said to me that, well, obviously, subcreation
Speaker 3: is a very Tolkenian term, right. It's the idea that
Speaker 3: that we all in some way participate in creation, obviously
Speaker 3: not in the original creation that was by God or
Speaker 3: in the Stilmarlion by heru, right, but that we all
Speaker 3: are called to to share our creative gifts in one
Speaker 3: way or another. And and that means different things for
Speaker 3: different people. So it's kind of it's something that we
Speaker 3: need to be on the lookout for, something that we
Speaker 3: need to be discerning, like what are my gifts? How
Speaker 3: can I contribute and positive way right to enhance and
Speaker 3: protect the creation that's that we have been given?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, here's that's good. Here's the here's the quote
Speaker 1: I picked out to support this and each each there's
Speaker 1: six sections in this thing, right, six insights U. Okay,
Speaker 1: So here's the quote I picked out for this first
Speaker 1: section on subcreators all. So great is the bounty with
Speaker 1: which man has been treated that he may now perhaps
Speaker 1: fairly dare to guess that in fantasy, he may actually
Speaker 1: assist in the affoliation and multiple enrichment of creation. That's
Speaker 1: like the last I think that's the very last line
Speaker 1: of on fairy Stories, or close to it. And it's
Speaker 1: it's a little bit I mean, Tolkien was nothing if
Speaker 1: he wasn't a little bit wordy at times. But if
Speaker 1: you break that quote down, it's really so beautiful because
Speaker 1: it talks it basically says that we as human beings
Speaker 1: have this incredible dignity that we get to participate in
Speaker 1: in the in the like and like the create, like
Speaker 1: the ultimate creative act. And and you're right, it's not
Speaker 1: like we're God and we made everything out of nothing,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, like we we seem to
Speaker 1: participate in in the creative act of God in a
Speaker 1: way that's utterly unique. Right, we do things as human
Speaker 1: beings that the other creatures on this planet, which is
Speaker 1: all the creatures we know about, are are.
Speaker 3: Incapable of becas we're made in the image of God. Right,
Speaker 3: and we all have immortal souls.
Speaker 1: Right, And and I would even go so far. You know,
Speaker 1: it's been a while since I actually wrote this, but
Speaker 1: as I've thought more about some different things, I would
Speaker 1: even go so far as to say that we are
Speaker 1: like creation. Creation is something that's in progress. Like there's
Speaker 1: a I read a really startling thought a little while
Speaker 1: ago that basically said, like, if you kind of break
Speaker 1: it down, we're not We're I'm not getting into like,
Speaker 1: you know, nobody misinterpret my words is the thing I'm
Speaker 1: getting to, like, you know, like literalism in the Bible
Speaker 1: or anything like that, Like a literalistic interpretation. But if
Speaker 1: we kind of just like look at you know, the
Speaker 1: the meaning, you know, the whatever you want to call it,
Speaker 1: the allegorical, their poetic meaning or whatever of the first
Speaker 1: text of the first chapter of Genesis. You've got these
Speaker 1: six days of creation, and on the sixth day you
Speaker 1: have man, and then on the seventh day God rests.
Speaker 1: And in that I read this amazing quote that basically
Speaker 1: put out there that like we still are in the
Speaker 1: sixth day. So in other words, like you see all
Speaker 1: seven days of history and then like on the seventh
Speaker 1: day God comes to arrest and everything seems to be
Speaker 1: all good, and that maybe we're still in that sixth day, right,
Speaker 1: that maybe we are in the process of being created ourselves,
Speaker 1: and part of that process is our own participation in creativity, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that part of and think about it. You see this
Speaker 1: reflected in the story of I know Linda, right in
Speaker 1: the story of the ire right, because he creates these
Speaker 1: beings that he then tasks with completing his creation, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, So I mean this gives this incredible
Speaker 1: it gives this incredible significance and this incredible dignity to
Speaker 1: you know, to the labor of our hands, and and
Speaker 1: and I think that extends not just to like kind
Speaker 1: of traditional things we think of as creative artistic endeavors
Speaker 1: and so forth, but I think it actually extends to
Speaker 1: you know, everything we give ourselves to as human beings.
Speaker 3: Right, all of our work, right, because not all of
Speaker 3: us are called to what is typically thought of as
Speaker 3: the creative you know, the creative pursuits, right, Whereas you know,
Speaker 3: I'm guilty of thinking of being creative as being well,
Speaker 3: I'm not a good writer, and I'm not a good
Speaker 3: you know, musician, and I don't draw.
Speaker 1: Well, you're a decent musician, okay, music, you give yourself
Speaker 1: enough credit there.
Speaker 3: I don't anyway, I don't consider myself the creative type.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me say I feel you.
Speaker 3: But so it's really so I love that interpretation and
Speaker 3: being like, well, you know, I'm a nurse, so that's
Speaker 3: the gift, you know, I I am creat Like I
Speaker 3: don't have to be an artist, you know in the
Speaker 3: traditional sense to be an active participant in this you know,
Speaker 3: effort of subcreation, but that I am contributing in the
Speaker 3: work that I'm called to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, boom, yeah. That that's I mean, that's exactly what
Speaker 1: I'm getting at, right, And I think there's something to
Speaker 1: be said. I think Leaf by Nigols shows us that
Speaker 1: maybe there was an inside that Tolkien head somewhere along
Speaker 1: the way that you know, it was like it's not
Speaker 1: just our like kind of the creative acts either, but
Speaker 1: like the the mo it's maybe like the moral acts, right,
Speaker 1: It's it's maybe the acts of heroism, the acts of uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the acts of self sacrifice that are perhaps
Speaker 1: like the even greater creative acts, right, that are the
Speaker 1: like highest creative acts we can actually partake in, right,
Speaker 1: because in doing so we give ourselves to the life
Speaker 1: of another right, We give ourselves for the life of
Speaker 1: another right.
Speaker 3: That is exactly the model that Christ laid up.
Speaker 1: Which if that's true, then motherhood is like you could
Speaker 1: possily have right, yes, so give yourself some credit. He's all,
Speaker 1: I'm saying, right, but I had a good thought and
Speaker 1: then I lost it. But anyway, you're a mean cook also,
Speaker 1: so uh, you're really good. So you're you know that's
Speaker 1: something I can't do well. All right, moving on, uh
Speaker 1: Insight number two, the way things really work. In letter
Speaker 1: eighty nine, Tolkien said, I remember saying aloud with absolute conviction,
Speaker 1: but of course, of course that's how things really do work.
Speaker 1: We actually did an episode on this particular letter.
Speaker 3: I believe I remember talking about that, and I remember
Speaker 3: the mental image that that. I still have that ment,
Speaker 3: whole image of Tolgan and riding his bike, you know,
Speaker 3: down the street in England, passed an infirmary, and then
Speaker 3: he's just like, ah, he has a light bulb right moment.
Speaker 3: He's like, oh, yeah, of course of course that's how
Speaker 3: things really do work.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 3: It's I just love like, I just I just love it.
Speaker 3: It's I just feel like it's classic Tolkien.
Speaker 1: I know, it's it's such it's such a great like
Speaker 1: mental image, you know, like yeah, you almost want there
Speaker 1: to be like a like a movie made about just
Speaker 1: like that one that one episode. Do you so you
Speaker 1: can see it for your with your own eyes. But yeah,
Speaker 1: his basic insight here is that resurrection is the way
Speaker 1: things really work. That and he spoke about this in
Speaker 1: other places. He he was riding, he was riding near
Speaker 1: an infirmary and he looks at this in front of infirmary.
Speaker 1: You know, we don't you normally use that word in
Speaker 1: the US. It's the hospital, right, it's a place for
Speaker 1: sick people. And and he's writing by this place which is
Speaker 1: maybe not thought of as a particularly like happy place,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden he just has this epiphany.
Speaker 1: It's like it came out of nowhere from heaven, right,
Speaker 1: and he just is like, of course that's the way
Speaker 1: things really work. Like death, Death doesn't have the final say, right,
Speaker 1: death is actually the thing that leads to new and
Speaker 1: greater life through the power of Christ's resurrection. Yep. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just a really it's just a really cool little
Speaker 1: episode in one of those things that like, I think
Speaker 1: it's so it's so important to remember. It's the thing
Speaker 1: that has been such a consolation to me as a
Speaker 1: Christian for so long, Right, is this this foundational thing
Speaker 1: that like death cannot hold the power of love and
Speaker 1: the power and the power of Christ right, and that
Speaker 1: in his own crucifixion it led to resurrection and broke
Speaker 1: up and broke up and the bonds of death right.
Speaker 1: It's set mankind free right. And so our lot, our
Speaker 1: lot in this lives, in this life, is to realize
Speaker 1: that freedom and to live in that freedom, live in
Speaker 1: the light of that freedom. Yeah, I live in the
Speaker 1: light of that freedom, all right. The next insight is
Speaker 1: number three, the cure for spiritual depression, So Tolkien said
Speaker 1: in letter two to fifty, the only cure for sagging
Speaker 1: of fainting faith is communion. So, at one point or another,
Speaker 1: we all go through periods of spiritual darkness in our lives.
Speaker 1: And you may call it depression, but I'd even go
Speaker 1: so far as to call it an existential bleakness, a
Speaker 1: period wherein the beliefs we've built our lives on are
Speaker 1: put to the test. But Tolkien was a big believer
Speaker 1: in the power of the Eucharist as a Catholic. It
Speaker 1: was the center of his faith, and so in letter
Speaker 1: two fifty he was right to one of his sons
Speaker 1: who was talking about his own sagging faith. I mean,
Speaker 1: this communion really communicates to us the closeness of of
Speaker 1: the closeness of Christ and the darkness of our lives
Speaker 1: right in the in the dark times we go to
Speaker 1: we go through. Can you agree with that? Yeah, yeah, totally, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's there's a reason it's such an
Speaker 1: important thing for you know, for Catholics, and it expresses
Speaker 1: that real presence that God is there, that God is
Speaker 1: there with us, and the quiet in the and you know,
Speaker 1: of whatever moment we find ourselves in that we always
Speaker 1: have access to Him, right, that we always have access
Speaker 1: to Him in the most intimateive ways.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I you know, I think even as a non Catholic,
Speaker 3: I believed that, like I knew, I truly believe that,
Speaker 3: you know, Jesus is everywhere and you can always talk
Speaker 3: to him and you know all that. But now as
Speaker 3: a Catholic and having the Eucharist and having access to adoration,
Speaker 3: it's you know, I mean, we are feeble human beings
Speaker 3: and it just really helped help the you know, you
Speaker 3: can know in your brain, but to be able to see,
Speaker 3: you know, to see that consecrated host and to be
Speaker 3: able to receive it know that like He's He's there,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, it just helps. It helps be
Speaker 3: able to see it with your own two eyes. So
Speaker 3: I that that's been a huge, huge blessing for me
Speaker 3: as a Catholic. And if if I had, you know,
Speaker 3: if Catholic had said something like that to me before
Speaker 3: I was Catholic, I would have been I wouldn't have
Speaker 3: gotten it, like at all. But so it's something I
Speaker 3: feel like you definitely have to experience to to truly believe.
Speaker 3: But but you know, it just it helps with that
Speaker 3: whole faith thing because having faith is hard. And being
Speaker 3: able to see just you know, to actually see something
Speaker 3: that we believe is Jesus is you know, body, blood, soule,
Speaker 3: divinity is it's a huge lift for the spirit and
Speaker 3: the soul.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to be able to receive it as well. Absolutely, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's even better. Right. So and it's uh, you know,
Speaker 1: it's food for the journey, it is, right.
Speaker 3: It's like what was that's the the Elven bread that
Speaker 3: they live on in their journey.
Speaker 1: It's I mean I was thinking of that, but now
Speaker 1: I can't think of Limbus Limbus. That's it.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's it's our Limbus.
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, all right, number four insight Number four,
Speaker 1: evil shall be good to have been? WHOA No, Right?
Speaker 3: I read that twice? I was like, wait, did I
Speaker 3: read that right?
Speaker 1: This is from the Silmarllion, chapter eleven. Even as Aeru
Speaker 1: spoke to us, shall beauty, not before conceived, be brought
Speaker 1: into Ai, and evil yet be good to have been?
Speaker 1: And I think that's a quote from Manwey. And and
Speaker 1: this is after the course the great all the great
Speaker 1: catastrophes of vallan Or that caused the knoll door to leave, murder,
Speaker 1: destruction of the trees theft of the summerules, all these
Speaker 1: horrible things. And Manwey, looking back on all of this, says,
Speaker 1: even as Aero spoke to us, shell, beauty not before conceived,
Speaker 1: be brought into Ai, and evil yet be good to
Speaker 1: have been. So there's this real mystery that is all
Speaker 1: through Tolkien's works, and it's this idea that evil is
Speaker 1: never a good thing in and of itself. Right, And
Speaker 1: by this statement, he's not saying like, well, you should
Speaker 1: go commit acts of evil because that leads to good.
Speaker 1: But what he's saying is that when evil befalls us,
Speaker 1: and even when even when we find ourselves looking back
Speaker 1: and saying I did something evil, right and feel kind
Speaker 1: of ashamed of that. Right that even through that, there
Speaker 1: is a greater good that can and will emerge, right
Speaker 1: that we don't that we don't yet know. And that's
Speaker 1: that's related to that creative power of God, right, right.
Speaker 3: I mean we see that even just through the you know,
Speaker 3: the Crucifixion, which is you know, that was the worst
Speaker 3: You would think that that would be the worst possible
Speaker 3: thing that could ever happen, right, man killing God, But
Speaker 3: look at all the good. You know, Without the Crucifixion,
Speaker 3: we don't have the resurrection, right, right, So it can
Speaker 3: be hard, you know, especially in those dark moments, to
Speaker 3: really hold true to that, that that faith that oh this,
Speaker 3: you know, good will come from this. We might not
Speaker 3: always see it, you know, but it's we just have
Speaker 3: to have the faith that it's that's what's going to
Speaker 3: happen eventually in some way or another, absolutely, and believe
Speaker 3: that our ways are are not God's ways, and God's
Speaker 3: ways are much bigger and better than ours.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we see this. We see this in
Speaker 1: a big way also in the story of Frodo, and
Speaker 1: you know, the fact that he has to go through
Speaker 1: all these evils, but we see this just incredible story
Speaker 1: of haro Is that emerges.
Speaker 4: There.
Speaker 1: It's it's really this this one is just really it's
Speaker 1: especially hard to grasp this when we're actually experiencing a
Speaker 1: painful evil, when you're in the valley of the Shadow
Speaker 1: of death. Nothing about it seems good. And but yet
Speaker 1: we have this testimony, we have this witness, right, and
Speaker 1: and Tolkien's works witness to this truth, right, And it
Speaker 1: was something I think that he reflected upon greatly in
Speaker 1: his own life. So and and even through all of that,
Speaker 1: we have we have this assurance, if you go back
Speaker 1: to number two, right, that resurrection is the way things
Speaker 1: really work. We have this assurance that even through all
Speaker 1: of that, that that that that the evil never has
Speaker 1: the final say right over any of it, right, that
Speaker 1: nothing is actually lost, right, nothing can be lost in
Speaker 1: the end, right because evil has been conquered exactly all right.
Speaker 1: Number five of Christianity is history's plot, so he says,
Speaker 1: in unfairy stories, the Gospels contain a fairy story or
Speaker 1: a story of a larger kind, which embraces all the
Speaker 1: essence of fairy stories. But this story has entered history
Speaker 1: in the primary world. The birth of Christ is the
Speaker 1: YU catastrophe of man's history. The resurrection is the catastrophe
Speaker 1: EU catastrophe of the story of the incarnation. For you know,
Speaker 1: for those of you who who aren't who aren't Christians,
Speaker 1: who are listening, you know, we say this not to
Speaker 1: be controversial, not to provoke, but but to say like
Speaker 1: that this was an idea that was central to Tolkien's
Speaker 1: own outlook. This is an idea that was central to
Speaker 1: you know, his the things that drove him to create
Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings right and his other works.
Speaker 1: But it also you know, it that that little bit
Speaker 1: right there he talks about in the context of YOUU catastrophe.
Speaker 1: So you know, we've talked, we've talked a good bit
Speaker 1: about the resurrection already. But this reminds us that like history,
Speaker 1: like human history, actually has a plot, right, that it's
Speaker 1: actually a story that that we're inhabiting. Each of us
Speaker 1: has our own individual stories too, which reflect this story, right, yep.
Speaker 1: But in the greater sense history Christianity is is the
Speaker 1: plot of history. So got any thoughts on that?
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's so like, I mean, I feel
Speaker 3: like we could talk for an episode just on that alone.
Speaker 1: Right, So I don't want to.
Speaker 3: I don't want to get us started on that, but
Speaker 3: that it is a it's yeah, I mean, the Gospels,
Speaker 3: it's just central to to everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's an interesting I mentioned something in this section
Speaker 1: that says Tolkien cared so much about the Gospel story
Speaker 1: that he viewed the stories of Middle Earth as a
Speaker 1: sort of precursor to it. And so we've done episodes
Speaker 1: where it talks about the significance of March twenty fifth
Speaker 1: for Tolkien, the date of the One the date the
Speaker 1: One Ring is destroyed. March twenty fifth is the date
Speaker 1: of the Annunciation, which is literally the day of the
Speaker 1: incarnation date, the kind of traditional date of the incarnation,
Speaker 1: and it's in the traditional date of the Crucifixion as
Speaker 1: well in some reckonings.
Speaker 3: Oh I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know, and of course Good Friday shifts
Speaker 1: based on the year, but if it but there's some
Speaker 1: that believe it did fall on March twenty fifth because
Speaker 1: and that's possible because we know it fell within the
Speaker 1: week of Passover, So it just depends on what year
Speaker 1: it actually happened. So number six, the last insight here
Speaker 1: is true power.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So in letter one thirty one, Tolkien says the wheels
Speaker 1: of the world are often turned not by the lords
Speaker 1: and governors, even gods, but by the seemingly unknown and weak.
Speaker 1: So this is just again another one of those incredibly
Speaker 1: encouraging thoughts to say that, like, you know, so many
Speaker 1: of us so often feel so small and helpless and
Speaker 1: weak compared to all the powerful, power, powerful people we
Speaker 1: see in the world, and all of the people who
Speaker 1: are super famous and super rich and all this kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. And all those people have their own stories too,
Speaker 1: and they have their roles to play. But what Tolkien
Speaker 1: says here is that it's really not those people that
Speaker 1: you know, you think of as being the most important
Speaker 1: people in the world that are actually the most important
Speaker 1: people in the world. But it's actually it's actually the
Speaker 1: little people. It's the people who you wouldn't give a
Speaker 1: second thought to mm hmm. It's the protos and the
Speaker 1: SAMs exactly. And that's all because and I mean, think
Speaker 1: about what a tremendous theme of that is. And you know,
Speaker 1: the Gandalf is the only one who who recognizes the
Speaker 1: important role that the Hobbits are going to play right,
Speaker 1: and everybody else is just like, oh, they're these like
Speaker 1: backwards little people that you know who cares about them?
Speaker 1: Right right? And you know, Gandalf recognizes this. So there's
Speaker 1: wisdom in recognizing this. There's wisdom in saying, like, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, maybe I shouldn't care so much about what,
Speaker 1: uh you know, this politician or that politic or this
Speaker 1: celebrity or that celebrity or you know this talking head
Speaker 1: or that talking head thinks about anything, but maybe I
Speaker 1: should actually like be attending to the you know, the
Speaker 1: little the little people in my life, the insignificance in
Speaker 1: my life right in paying them a little more attention, right.
Speaker 1: I know, as a father, this is something that comes
Speaker 1: back to me often because I'm always so busy in
Speaker 1: my work and and I'm just you know everyone, so
Speaker 1: I have to step back and just say, like, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, My greatest responsibility is like to my kids.
Speaker 1: Like I don't think I can ever go wrong by
Speaker 1: spending too much time with him, but I like find
Speaker 1: so many excuses not to and not because I want to,
Speaker 1: but because I feel like all this other stuff is
Speaker 1: kind of more important.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, convicting thought I guess totally. Yeah, any
Speaker 1: final thoughts on that.
Speaker 3: Uh No, I mean I think, yeah, I mean, it's
Speaker 3: so contradictory, I think to how our society views power,
Speaker 3: right and the powerful, and it can be really challenging
Speaker 3: to take that step back and and you know, have
Speaker 3: that more Tolkienyan perspective on who is it you know
Speaker 3: that I should really be listening to that I should
Speaker 3: really be paying attention to. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this one is really like a great examination of conscience,
Speaker 1: like just to be like just every day to think, like,
Speaker 1: have I cared too much about like all the stuff
Speaker 1: that's going on in the world that I can't do
Speaker 1: anything about, or have I actually like just tried to
Speaker 1: work at the things that are actually like something I
Speaker 1: can do, right? Yeah? Right, m h.
Speaker 3: Because everybody, I mean doesn't everybody want to be like
Speaker 3: the hero, right that like rushes off to to you know,
Speaker 3: to help tsunami victims and you know like feed the
Speaker 3: poor and third world countries and there's are I mean,
Speaker 3: we need people to do that for sure, for sure,
Speaker 3: but I know it can be it can be easy
Speaker 3: for people to get down on themselves when they can't
Speaker 3: do that for whatever reason they don't. They don't have
Speaker 3: their their work doesn't allow them to do that, or
Speaker 3: they have too many responsibilities at home or whatever. And
Speaker 3: so just being able to reorder your perspective and be like,
Speaker 3: you know what, my mission field is right here, and
Speaker 3: finding those opportunities to serve where you are, to bloom
Speaker 3: where you're planted. To choose a rather cliche phrase.
Speaker 1: But bloom bloom.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 1: All right, nice, good thoughts, Thanks, good stuff. So that's it.
Speaker 1: That's the sixth Spiritual Insights, you guys. So there's actually
Speaker 1: a lot more food for thought in the in the
Speaker 1: actual guide itself. We just kind of skimmed the surface
Speaker 1: of it in this little discussion. So I encourage you
Speaker 1: to head on over again to Tolkien Road dot com
Speaker 1: slash spirit and you can find out how to how
Speaker 1: to actually get this little guide for yourself and read
Speaker 1: through it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good read.
Speaker 1: I hope you you all enjoy it, and I hope
Speaker 1: you all do it, and I hope you all enjoy it,
Speaker 1: so please do. So that's pretty much all we got
Speaker 1: for this week. I do want to get one quick
Speaker 1: letter because we're trying to get a letter every week.
Speaker 1: This one's from Evan d. He says, Hello, John, after
Speaker 1: hearing your tentative theories, I have come to a conclusion
Speaker 1: on this that I think explains that I think explains this,
Speaker 1: and so the subject of the email is my thoughts
Speaker 1: upon Thorn's making more important the role of a mother's
Speaker 1: figure and growing up. He says, Hobbits are largely agrarian
Speaker 1: and similar to early English life. Why would this not
Speaker 1: be reflected in child rearing? At that time, child rearing
Speaker 1: was a largely maternal duty, from punishment to praise until
Speaker 1: a child learned a trade or worked either under a
Speaker 1: tradesman or their father. Morality, seriousness, and other major formative
Speaker 1: thresholds for the mother's business. Maternal parenting became soft if
Speaker 1: you will in recent history. Before the mid to late
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, mothers beat and whip their children as they
Speaker 1: saw fit for discipline. Tough love was the only way
Speaker 1: for much of history ergo. Learning the harshness of the
Speaker 1: world and having a man made of oneself, if you will,
Speaker 1: was maternal duty. Hence thorn seemingly nonsensical statement, my best
Speaker 1: to you and those close to you, Evan. That's good, Yeah,
Speaker 1: really good. So again, like this is in the context
Speaker 1: of that question of I think it was originally raised
Speaker 1: by Maryland, the librarian of like why is why do
Speaker 1: is in the Quest of Arab or why does Thorn
Speaker 1: say that his mother died too early when they're talking
Speaker 1: about he's talking about how soft he is, and he's
Speaker 1: saying his mother died and so this is this is
Speaker 1: an interesting thought in one I hadn't really thought of,
Speaker 1: but I can definitely, I can definitely see that as
Speaker 1: as a possibility.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, that would have been the mother's responsibility,
Speaker 3: right to what those boys into shape in the field.
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, that's right. Yeah, very good stuff, Evan,
Speaker 1: Thank you Evan. All right, well, I think that's all
Speaker 1: we've got time for this week. Everybody, so appreciate you listening.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to our patrons. Oh let me let me
Speaker 1: remind you don't again. We were supposed to do with
Speaker 1: David Bats today. We will get to him from Pines
Speaker 1: with Jack. Head on over to Pines with Jack and
Speaker 1: start listening to that podcast, and then we'll look forward
Speaker 1: to our episode with David in a few weeks. So
Speaker 1: I'm excited about that special. Thanks to our patrons, you guys,
Speaker 1: Rock and especial thanks, double special, thanks to our five
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Speaker 1: Shannon S. Teresa c Azia, B. Brian O, Robert B.
Speaker 3: Thank you guys, Thanks you all, Thanks all.
Speaker 1: Of our patrons absolutely and thanks to all of our listeners.
Speaker 1: We will talk at you next time.
Speaker 2: Bye bye, bye bye.
Speaker 1: The paper fire had to be paper, say