WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:12.839 Hello, everyone, Welcome back to a new episode of the 2 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:17.039 Poker Go Podcast. My name is Donny Peters. It is Thursday, 3 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:20.120 August twentieth. It's gonna be at least Friday when you 4 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:22.879 guys are listening to this thing, because I'm recording this 5 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:26.359 late before I get it off to producer Rich to 6 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.679 get out there on the airwaves for all of you. Fun. 7 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:34.560 Episode ahead, I'm joined by my friend and veteran poker 8 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:38.079 media member, Lance Bradley. We're going to discuss the w 9 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:40.799 s AP being back on ESPN. We're going to discuss 10 00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:44.560 the ratings from the final table. Lance broke those ratings, 11 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:46.920 so we'll get into that, and then a bunch more 12 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:51.840 stuff from my conversation with Lance. Great guy, love him, 13 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:54.439 and you know we've we've been through We've been through 14 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:56.840 a lot together in terms of these poker media streets, 15 00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:59.119 right We've been in the trenches. So it's good to 16 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:02.320 have Lance on. I also have some thoughts later on 17 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:06.120 in the episode on something that I'm missing in poker. 18 00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:07.560 You know, I was having this feeling the other day 19 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:10.120 when I was in the car, so I'll touch on that. 20 00:01:10.599 --> 00:01:12.480 I do want to hit on the health of live 21 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:17.120 poker and then we got today the full schedule for 22 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:22.319 the WSP Paradise series down in the Bahamas taking place 23 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:25.840 in December. We knew the dates, okay, we didn't know 24 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:28.959 the full schedule. We have that now and I've got 25 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:32.599 some thoughts there. Before we get into all of that, 26 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:36.120 a quick note that High Stakes Poker is going live 27 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:41.439 for seven straight days on poker Go August twenty fifth 28 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:46.799 through thirty first. It is presented by Coin Poker. We'll 29 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.719 be live from the Poker gro Studio in Las Vegas. 30 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.519 There are some big names in the mix. A bunch 31 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.280 more of these names are to come, you know. I 32 00:01:57.439 --> 00:01:59.640 just can't give them out just yet. You're going to 33 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:02.079 have to see him as they roll out in these 34 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:04.480 next couple of days, or tune into the live streams 35 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:07.200 to see who is in the seats. But I can't 36 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.800 tell you that Andrew Robol is back. He's bringing his 37 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:15.120 crew for a bunch of the days. Alejandro Lococo is 38 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:18.080 going to be in the mix. Rick Solomon is returning 39 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:21.120 to High Stakes Poker. Rick is always a lot of 40 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:24.520 fun and a lot of action, so be sure to 41 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:28.520 check that out. It's not the first time that High 42 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:31.400 Stakes Poker has gone live, but I do believe it 43 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:34.439 is the first time that it will be live streamed 44 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:39.080 for seven consecutive days. Every single day is live. It's 45 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:44.319 gonna be freaking awesome. Plus yours truly has got the 46 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:48.879 call to do some commentary for the first couple of days. 47 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:49.639 Now. 48 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:53.080 I know you guys probably want to hear Nick Schulman 49 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:56.039 in the booth and I am nowhere near Nick Schulman, 50 00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:57.800 but I'm gonna have a lot of fun with it. 51 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.080 The live version is different than you know, the post 52 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:04.360 produced episodes, which we're going to get Nick on all 53 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:06.400 that sort of stuff. Aj and Nick will continue to 54 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:09.199 do that, so I think I think we're planning on 55 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.400 Ali Najade and Nick Shulman for the bulk of the 56 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:17.000 live streams over this week of upcoming live streams, but 57 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:19.560 myself and Brent Hanks will be handling the first I 58 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:22.560 think two or three of them, and I'm pretty pumped 59 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:23.680 about that. You know, it's going to be a lot 60 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:26.159 of fun. So if you guys like high stakes action, 61 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:28.879 if you like poker, tune the hell in. Let's go 62 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:32.439 August twenty fifth through thirty first high Stakes Poker. We're 63 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:37.719 doing it live seven days straight. First up on today's show, 64 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:40.960 We've got Lance Bradley. I wanted to get his perspective 65 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:44.919 on this new era of the WSP. That that new 66 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:49.080 era this is now. You know, poker has returned to ESPN. 67 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:53.280 We went through an entire summer under this new era. 68 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:56.439 We got the w s AP main event ratings. We 69 00:03:56.520 --> 00:03:58.439 had the first part of the ratings. Now we have 70 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:01.120 the rest of the ratings come out of the final table. 71 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:04.560 Lance and I talked about, you know what worked, what 72 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:08.080 can get better? He put an article out there that was, 73 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:11.000 you know, his biggest winners and losers. I asked him 74 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:13.520 about his favorite stories, all that sort of stuff. That's 75 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:16.639 all in the conversation with Lance. So let's get into that, 76 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:20.720 all right. I'd now like to welcome in Lance Bradley, 77 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:24.040 good friend of mine, longtime colleague of mine as well, 78 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:27.240 and who many of you in the poker world likely 79 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:32.439 know as veteran poker media member, award winning journalist, now 80 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:37.480 author of the Overlay newsletter on Substack. I am a subscriber. 81 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:40.560 You guys should be too, Lance. You also spent the 82 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:45.240 summer writing or covering the WSP for ESPN. You handled 83 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:47.600 a bunch of feature writing there throughout the series. How 84 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:49.199 are you doing? Welcome to the show. 85 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:51.600 Hey, it's good to be here. It's you're in the 86 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:53.519 middle of the Vegas desert at one hundred and ten 87 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:55.639 degrees with no humidity, and I'm in one hundred and 88 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:58.680 five degrees here in Atlanta with like one thousand percent community. 89 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:01.360 So on the heat a little bit, but glad to 90 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:02.920 be home from Vegas, for sure. 91 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:06.279 I think I would take one ten no humidity, maybe 92 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:09.959 even one fifteen. No humidity versus humidity. 93 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:11.879 Depends on what you're doing. I play in a roller 94 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:14.399 hockey league here in town, and it's outdoors, and we 95 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:16.480 have a game tonight at nine o'clock that it will 96 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:19.720 be like skating in a swamp, like you're skating through gravy. 97 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:20.519 It's awful. 98 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:24.800 Oh my god, that's sounds like torture. Absolutely sounds like torture. 99 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:26.639 All right, So we're going to talk about you know, 100 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:28.959 ws AP on ESPN. This is why I wanted to 101 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:33.480 have you on. You were by everything that I can see, 102 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:35.759 the person who broke the ratings for the for the 103 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:38.120 final table. You know, there's been a there's been a 104 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:40.759 lot of different stories out there, you know, picking up 105 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:42.600 what you initially wrote. First, you know, these are the 106 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:45.079 ratings for the EPISODEV Men Event Final Table on ESPN, 107 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:47.519 So we're going to touch on that and yeah, just 108 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:49.160 have a general conversation. 109 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:52.720 So, yeah, you'd be surprised how hard ratings information is 110 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:56.120 to come by in twenty twenty six. It's uh. It 111 00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:58.680 took a lot of uh prodding to get it out 112 00:05:58.680 --> 00:05:59.319 of a few people. 113 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:02.920 I mean, I I obviously work in the content side 114 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:06.360 of things, being with Poker Go, and pretty much every 115 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:09.759 day since the Final Table ended, I was searching around 116 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:12.600 online trying to find it. I was on social media 117 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:15.319 going to you know, awful announcing see if they might 118 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:17.560 have posted something. I'm doing, I'm doing everything, and then 119 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:19.639 finally I saw your thing pop up, and I was like, oh, 120 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:22.439 finally somebody did the heavy lifting for me. So thank 121 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:24.759 you for doing that for all of us out there. 122 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:28.079 Yeah, I mean, you saw the numbers. I know we're 123 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:29.279 going to get into it in a little bit, but 124 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:33.800 I think there's a lot of conversation out there about it, 125 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:35.240 and I think some of it lacks a little bit 126 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:36.800 of context, which I think is the hard part. 127 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:39.879 Yeah, we'll get into the ratings. I do want to 128 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:45.000 start with, you know, kind of just just general overarching 129 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:47.879 WSB's return to ESPN, because because that was a lot 130 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:50.279 of a lot of talk heading into the summer, It's 131 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:53.199 going to be back on ESPN throughout the summer, of course, 132 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:56.199 obviously during the lead up to the Final Table and 133 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:58.759 during the final Table. So you know, now that we 134 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:00.839 have had, you know a little bit of time to 135 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:03.680 digest everything from the summer, you know what are kind 136 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:05.879 of just your overall thoughts about the dubs it be 137 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:07.800 making its way back to ESPN. 138 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:09.759 Okay, let me put a bit of a qualifier on this, 139 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.439 just so that everybody listening is understands the what I 140 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:16.600 did for ESPN the summer. I was ready for ESPN 141 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:20.240 dot com, which is an entirely different beast an organization 142 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:24.000 than the ESPN broadcast group. Like they're they're the same brand, 143 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:26.560 and they definitely have some interaction, but for the most part, 144 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:28.560 like I was separate from the production, so I don't 145 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:31.519 have any inside information on the production or on the 146 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:36.160 TV show. But I think the overall return to ESPN 147 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:41.399 was wins and losses, right, I think there was. I 148 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:43.160 don't think it was ever going to live up to 149 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:45.439 the hype of returning to ESPN in its first year. 150 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:47.120 I think it's going to get there. I think there's 151 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:50.800 potential to get there. But I think anybody on the 152 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:53.680 production side is probably looking at twenty twenty six as 153 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:55.920 what did we learn? What can we do better? 154 00:07:56.360 --> 00:07:59.639 Yeah, And it's interesting because I think a lot of 155 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.120 people I'm talking just kind of general poker audience, whether 156 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:08.000 that be fans or players, once they saw WSP back 157 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:12.279 on ESPN leading into the summer, everyone just kind of thought, 158 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:15.040 at least at least in my opinion, from reading some 159 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:17.680 of this stuff on social media, like we're back, almost 160 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:19.879 as if like we're back in two thousand and eight, 161 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:23.240 and you know, we know that, like no, first of all, 162 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:26.040 poker's changed. Second of all, everything in the world has 163 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:30.120 changed since that heyday of you know, the boom days, right, 164 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:34.240 and you know, ESPN isn't as big as it once was, 165 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:36.559 but but you know, cable in general isn't as big 166 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:39.120 as it once was. Like it's there's a whole separate 167 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:42.000 side topic with everything, you know, but it is interesting 168 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:45.039 that you know, just so many people just I guess 169 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:48.080 kind of expected it to be what it once was, 170 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:52.480 and it's it's I almost just want to tell them 171 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:56.399 like you're setting yourself up for a letdown because you're 172 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:59.960 you're keeping these expectations when something has just changed so drastic, 173 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:02.960 and we want this to be positive. We don't want 174 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.600 to look at it and say, hey, this wasn't what 175 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:08.039 it once was, because then that's a negative thought process 176 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:09.639 coming out of it. When at the end of the day, 177 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:13.399 it's almost like, yes, it is back on ESPN. But 178 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:17.159 it's almost like you'd rather say it like the ws 179 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:20.440 AP is going to ESPN, because back on makes you think, Okay, 180 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:22.320 back on this is what it once was. That's what 181 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.559 I expect it to be versus this one where I 182 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:27.200 think it's kind of a new era and in a 183 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:30.879 lot of ways. So you know, I guess long and 184 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:34.440 short of it is, you know, how how different do 185 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:37.240 you think it felt compared to you know, previous times 186 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:39.039 and if people want to, you know, look back on 187 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:40.480 you know, the old days of it. 188 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:43.080 I mean when you mentioned two thousand and eight, two 189 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:45.600 thousand and nine, that those being the like glory days, right, 190 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.519 two thousand and nine, too million people watched Jokada Win. 191 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:52.039 They may have event on ESPN, but that was seventeen, 192 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:55.279 eighteen years ago, like we're in a different world now. 193 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:58.360 It's a There are kids born that year who just 194 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.399 moved into their college dorm room for the first like 195 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:04.240 it was forever ago. In poker timelines. The way that 196 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:06.600 I think you have to look at it is that 197 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:11.000 the WSOP of twenty twenty six is a startup. It's 198 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.480 a startup with a fifty six year old brand, fifty 199 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:16.159 seven year old brand attached to it. So I understand 200 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:18.200 that it's not just like a brand new company launching 201 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:20.600 and coming out of nowhere. But there's a whole bunch 202 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:22.879 of new people on the ESPN side, there's a whole 203 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:25.519 bunch of new people on the WSOP side, and they 204 00:10:25.559 --> 00:10:29.080 brought in a new production company to produce the product. 205 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:32.480 So for the most part, it was probably seventy five 206 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:36.120 to eighty percent sort of new thinking, new people handling it. 207 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:40.600 That being said, everybody understood the assignment at the base 208 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:43.919 level was that you've got to tap into the nostalgia 209 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:48.559 of those glory days in the broadcast product. So Long 210 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:51.480 and Norm are back and they're carrying on the things 211 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:53.639 they did. You know, in twenty nineteen, it was still 212 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:56.360 on ESPN, that's that's not that long ago. Pre COVID. 213 00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:59.159 The end of that run, right was the twenty I 214 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:03.639 guess the twenty twenty WSLP main event was on ESPN, 215 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:06.440 But twenty nineteen was the last full production year where 216 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:08.639 we had a full main event, so I think they 217 00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:12.480 tapped into the nostalgia just enough. I think they listened 218 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:15.200 to a bunch of people that said, hey, you've got 219 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:17.240 to bring back things like the Nuts, and they did. 220 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:20.080 They figured out ways to get poker players away from 221 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.840 the table in an effort to tell the story of 222 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:25.480 somebody you want to cheer for or somebody you might recognize, 223 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:29.039 like Chris Moneymaker was involved in that Nuts segment specifically 224 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:33.399 because a vast majority of the casual flip and channels 225 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.320 what's on ESPN tonight audience is going to recognize Chris Moneymaker, 226 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:39.679 So they figured out that they had to tap into 227 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:42.360 that sort of the old school way of doing things 228 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:45.039 on ESPN, and they are trying to modernize it a 229 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:47.519 little bit with bringing Nick and Ali almost full time 230 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:50.840 by the end of the main event broadcast. So I 231 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:55.240 think the score you get on an overall is like 232 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.919 a C plus because I think they did some things 233 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:01.000 really well, but I also think they missed the market 234 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:04.279 a bunch of things. But the overall like does this 235 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:07.080 feel like it did on ESPN ten years ago? Yep, 236 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:07.919 that's an a for me. 237 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:11.639 How important do you think it is to I guess, 238 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:15.240 sort of split the audiences and then pick one that 239 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.200 you're going to go after, Meaning, you know, are they 240 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.720 sitting in the production room saying like, Okay, we need 241 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:23.799 to tap into the nostalgia side of things. We need 242 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:25.440 to bring it back to what it once was, to 243 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:28.240 capture that casual viewer, which in a lot of ways 244 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:30.799 is going to I guess, for lack of a better term, 245 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:34.039 alienate like the current hardcore viewer, which I think you 246 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.720 saw some of on social media. On the other side 247 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.039 of things, if you lean into the hardcore is too much, 248 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:42.519 you then might turn off the casual viewer. So trying 249 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:44.720 to walk that line has got to be I would say, 250 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:48.720 next to impossible. So you know, like, how important do 251 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:51.559 you think approaching just attacking one side of it is 252 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.200 in this overall thing. 253 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:55.759 I think it's really hard to tackle one side because 254 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:57.879 you can't ignore the other side. When I was writing 255 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:01.679 my features for ESPN dot com with an editor before 256 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:04.120 I even did the first interview or put the first 257 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:08.519 question down on paper. And this editor, Pierre, he was fantastic. 258 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:12.799 He was the voice in the room of the person 259 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.639 who watched the WSPN ESPN ten years ago, five years ago, 260 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.600 seven years ago. And you know, a lot of my writing, 261 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:21.840 you know this, A lot of my writing, a lot 262 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:24.240 of my work over my career is for the hardcore 263 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:28.519 poker fan. Someone who's reading bluff, reading pocket vives is 264 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:30.759 already into poker in a big way, and they're finding 265 00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:33.039 my stuff that way. So this was a real change 266 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:35.320 for me. And it was eye opening in the sense of, 267 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:37.759 like Pierre was saying to me, like, you've got to 268 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:40.879 write to me the people who read your stuff before, 269 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:43.120 they're going to find your stuff. But we've got to 270 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.240 find a way to get the guy who watched he 271 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:49.039 didn't even know that it moved to CBS Sports where 272 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.240 no one could see it, right, and he's rediscovering it 273 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:54.960 on a Wednesday night in August or in July for 274 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.519 the first time. What can you write to make that 275 00:13:57.559 --> 00:14:00.759 guy feel re engaged with the product, re engage with 276 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:03.279 the WSP, with the players. So I think you've got 277 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:05.919 to find a way to thread the line. It is 278 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:09.600 tricky because you don't want to ignore things that have 279 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.399 happened in the last six eight years, right, the players 280 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:15.440 that have emerged, the stars that have come out. But 281 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.679 you also know that the people that are at home 282 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:21.360 in late July or on vacation and just flicking the 283 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.080 TV on to put something on and find Poker, they're 284 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:27.120 going to recognize helping you, Nigra on you, Ivy money Maker, 285 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:29.120 et cetera. So you've got to find a way to 286 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:32.000 do a little bit of a little bit of that 287 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.559 balancing act between sticking with those guys but also telling 288 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:38.399 stories of new people so that next year you can 289 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:39.519 reinforce that story. 290 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.159 Right, Yeah, I mean I agree, you know, it's it's 291 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:47.759 certainly very hard, you know, to walk that line and 292 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.840 do both things. I mean, especially in today's world when 293 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:55.159 everyone has a trigger in their hand ready to just 294 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:57.480 fire off takes on social media and let you know 295 00:14:57.519 --> 00:14:59.679 how they they think about things. And you know, you 296 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:02.159 and I both know as as the audience knows, you know, 297 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:07.919 the the poker social media globe is. I mean, they 298 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.600 fire off takes like it's their job, you know, so 299 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:15.720 we we see all that you know, in like right 300 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:31.159 in front of our faces all summer long. There was 301 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:33.559 you know a lot of talk from from the w 302 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:36.919 SP side of things, you know, like from Jeff Platt 303 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:39.639 or whoever it may be, even Daniel Legrand, et cetera, 304 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:41.519 saying things like, you know, this is kind of just 305 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.440 year one of this new era that we're bringing back. 306 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:47.679 There's gonna be a lot of improvement going forward. There's 307 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:50.320 gonna be some growth, you know, just stick with us. 308 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:52.559 We're in this for the long haul. The ESPN deal 309 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:54.840 itself is a multi year deal like all of that. 310 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:59.799 So I guess how much of what we saw this 311 00:15:59.879 --> 00:16:02.799 year year was really just that, as you called it, 312 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:05.360 which I think is a great term, a startup, you know, Like, 313 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:07.759 how much is it just this this is the year 314 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:09.960 one product, This is what we first put out there 315 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:12.240 in front of the consumer, and we're still going to 316 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:13.120 have to figure it out. 317 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:16.519 As we go. Yeah, I'd say it's probably fifty to fifty, right. 318 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:20.120 I think the voices in the room that are that 319 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:24.320 have been around for years, we're probably hurt. But I 320 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:26.799 also think that the new people that you know, the 321 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:32.080 gg's poker side brought in, we're also very very very hurt, 322 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:35.000 almost to their detriment, maybe a little bit. I think 323 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:38.200 what you're going to see moving forward is the attitude 324 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:41.440 that we can be dedicated to doing things the way 325 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:43.360 we want to do them, but also understanding that our 326 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:46.840 audience is may have a different opinion, and we've kind 327 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:48.600 of got to walk back a little bit, and we've 328 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:51.360 got to have the audience reciprocate a little bit and 329 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:53.960 meet us closer to the middle. I think next year 330 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:55.720 you're going to see, in terms of just the live streaming, 331 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:57.720 not just the ESPN product. With the live streaming, you're 332 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:01.200 going to see all the bracelets on on livestream. I 333 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:05.519 think it's they learned quickly that people are more interested, 334 00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:09.480 particularly the WSP in watching people in bracelets, watching final tables, 335 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.160 watching the stars at these final tables, as opposed to 336 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.880 watching day two of yet another high roller. So my 337 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:18.519 hope is that the audience comes forward a little bit, 338 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:21.359 that the production side moves back a little bit, and 339 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:24.359 we eventually, you know, year two, Year three, really are 340 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:28.599 landing in a place where not everybody's happy, because that's impossible, 341 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:32.920 but there is, you know, some admiration from both sides. 342 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:36.279 Let's get into these ratings a little bit here. You know, 343 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:39.279 you wrote about the ratings over on your newsletter on 344 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:42.880 substack the overlay, great name, by the way, I always 345 00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:46.640 always loved it. You talked about, you know, Night one, 346 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:49.000 which so for those that you know may have been 347 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:51.000 living under a rock, Night one of the final Table 348 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.160 was on ESPN two. Nights two and three were on 349 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:59.880 ESPN one or just ESPN as they call it, correct 350 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.079 if I'm wrong, But couldn't find ratings for the first night 351 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:04.240 because they were off the sheet or too low, so 352 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:05.359 you kind of estimated it. 353 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:09.319 So the way that the ratings information that I got 354 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:11.519 works is they just show you the top one hundred 355 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:15.480 shows by viewership in the eighteen to forty nine demographic. 356 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.000 Now that doesn't mean those are the top one hundred 357 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:22.519 most popular shows. It just means that in the demographic 358 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.799 that advertisers really genuinely care about, that's where they fall. 359 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:31.200 And the ESPN two broadcasts of Night one didn't hit 360 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:34.759 the top one hundred, so sort of estimated based on 361 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:37.920 where the bottom of that list was and what an 362 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.880 ESPN two product would normally do on that night, and 363 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:43.440 really just said it's somewhere between one hundred and fifty 364 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:44.559 thousand viewers. 365 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.880 Yeah, and I guess my thought there the first thing 366 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.839 that stuck out to me just you know, again, I've 367 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:53.839 been in this industry long enough. On the content side 368 00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:56.839 of things, I know, the ratings side, I would say 369 00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:00.480 that just looking at the eighteen to forty nine, I 370 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.839 know that's what's available, but the poker audience also skews 371 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:05.039 generally a little bit older. 372 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:08.000 Yeah, so that number is actually the entire audience, not 373 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:10.640 just the eighteen to forty nine. It just means that 374 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:13.400 the number didn't fall within the top one hundred eighteen 375 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:15.880 to forty nine. The number that I'm projecting in there, 376 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:17.839 that is the entire audience, which is what the next 377 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:18.720 two numbers also are. 378 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.680 Yeah, and then it moves over to ESPN. You know, 379 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.480 that's that's the main channel. That's what everyone knows, you know. 380 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:28.799 So and the numbers jump. Of course, they also jump 381 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.359 because there's fewer people in the tournament, there's more money 382 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:32.720 to be won. It's a little bit you know, it's 383 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:34.759 deeper in the final table like all that sort of stuff. 384 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.279 And they jump at least three x you know, based 385 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:40.680 on the estimation, if not a little bit more foreigner 386 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.480 in fifty one thousand, and then the second or sorry, 387 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:47.039 the third night or the second night on ESPN, they 388 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:50.039 jump up to almost six hundred thousand, So you know, 389 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:53.200 I guess, just what are your thoughts on the jump? 390 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:55.759 And then kind of when you first saw those numbers, 391 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.759 like what was your reaction? Is this good? Is this bad? 392 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:01.039 Were they what you expe I did you know all that? 393 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:04.240 So the first thing I thought was like, how does 394 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.319 ESPN think? And I didn't. I didn't have any inside information, 395 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:09.920 nobody told me anything. But when I looked at the 396 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:12.119 night one numbers, not being in the top one, hunters 397 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.319 like that can't be good, Like that's not a good start. 398 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:16.680 But then I was able to go back and look 399 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:20.680 at previous Monday nights on ESPN two, and barring a 400 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:25.039 situation where they get something running over from ESPN onto 401 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:28.079