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<v Speaker 1>FBI negotiator Gary Nessner. He retired from the FBI in

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and three following a thirty year career as

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<v Speaker 1>an investigator, instructor, and negotiator and FBI hostage negotiator. For

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<v Speaker 1>thirty three years of his career, he spent ten years

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<v Speaker 1>as the bureau's chief negotiator. In his book, Stalling for Time,

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<v Speaker 1>the FBI's Chief Hostage Negotiator, takes readers on a howering

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<v Speaker 1>tour through many of the most famous hostage crisis in

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<v Speaker 1>history of the modern FBI, including the Siege at Waco,

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<v Speaker 1>the Montana Freeman standoff, and the DC sniper attacks. Gary Nessner,

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the show. It's an honor and a privilege

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<v Speaker 1>to have you.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, that's my pleasure to be with you today.

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<v Speaker 1>Look at these events that were kind of leading up

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<v Speaker 1>to Waco. It's very interesting the amount of distrust that's

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<v Speaker 1>brewing against the FBI and government organizations in general. You

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<v Speaker 1>start being with the jfk assassination November twenty second of

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen sixty three. The FBI totally botched that investigation, and

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<v Speaker 1>the American public wanted answers that the FBI didn't or

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't provide, which created a lot of conspiracy theories, and

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<v Speaker 1>that might be the cause of the original conspiracy theory

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<v Speaker 1>because of the distrust and non transparent nature of government institutions.

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<v Speaker 1>And then we have the Cold War, which created all

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<v Speaker 1>this fear and panic from an outside force. And then

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<v Speaker 1>this one, which is very important to mention is the

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<v Speaker 1>way cults were being portrayed and looked at around the

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<v Speaker 1>time too. You know, the Satanic Panic days, Jim Jones,

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<v Speaker 1>the Jonestown cult where you know, the death toll was

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<v Speaker 1>reported to be over nine hundred from mass suicide. And

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<v Speaker 1>then we have the Ruby Ridge event in August of

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<v Speaker 1>ninety two where Randy Weaver's son Samuel Weaver was killed

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<v Speaker 1>and Vicki Weaver was killed by the FBI sniper. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>it was portrayed that you were at Ruby Ridge in

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<v Speaker 1>the Waco docu series on Paramount, but you weren't actually there.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct, That's correct, That's correct. Well, you know your comment there,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it covers a lot of territory. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>the FBI has always had a I think an interesting

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<v Speaker 2>relationship with the American people. I think go back to

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<v Speaker 2>the early years, and you know with Jager Hoover, he

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<v Speaker 2>built something quite unique and quite special and required much

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<v Speaker 2>more education and science in the application of crime. The

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<v Speaker 2>organization has never been perfect and has always made mistakes

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<v Speaker 2>along the way, but by and large it earned i

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<v Speaker 2>think rightfully so, the respect of the American people. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, as the years have evolved, and some of

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<v Speaker 2>the FBI's mistakes and it's a human organization. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>great organization, great people, but it does make mistakes have

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<v Speaker 2>really come to rust. And of course now currently there's

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<v Speaker 2>a there's a political element to it that there are

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<v Speaker 2>those who are against the government no matter what the

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<v Speaker 2>government does, and they they think the government's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>evil and out to get them and take away their

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<v Speaker 2>rights whatever it might be. That's kind of nonsensical when

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<v Speaker 2>you really know the facts. But there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people that embrace that. And there's others today that for

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<v Speaker 2>their own political gain, have decided to attack the FBI

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<v Speaker 2>because the FBI is doing its job in investigating them,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, such as the case with Trump. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>a it's a complex issue and when you go back

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<v Speaker 2>to a Ruby Ridge or a Waco, these are very

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<v Speaker 2>complex issues, and you know, people often forget that many

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<v Speaker 2>prison riots and even right wing malicious standoffs that the

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<v Speaker 2>FBI managed quite successfully before Ruby Ridge and Waco. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>I would I would suggest that the primary lesson learned

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<v Speaker 2>from Ruby Ridge and Waco was for the FBI to

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<v Speaker 2>do things again as we always had done before them.

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<v Speaker 2>Those two incidents were really because of some personnel issues involved.

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<v Speaker 2>We're really departures from doing things that we had gained

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<v Speaker 2>a reputation of being the best in the world at doing.

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<v Speaker 2>But it shows you how one one person in the

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<v Speaker 2>leadership position who's not well trained or prepared can really

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<v Speaker 2>create some significant reputational damage to an organization, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>and has real life consequences obviously. So yeah, so it's

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<v Speaker 2>a complex issue.

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<v Speaker 1>I agree absolutely. Now, did they consult you at any

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<v Speaker 1>time during the eleven day standoff at Ruby Ridge or no?

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<v Speaker 2>What happened with Ruby Ridge. At the time of Ruby Ridge,

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<v Speaker 2>there were two full time hastas negotiators in the FBI.

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<v Speaker 2>There's several three hundred four, three hundred and fifty I

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<v Speaker 2>think negotiators spread throughout the field, and negotiation for them,

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<v Speaker 2>as it is for the SWAT people, is a part

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<v Speaker 2>time function. If there's an event the bank robbery skyjacking,

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<v Speaker 2>they roll out on behalf of the FBI and respond.

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<v Speaker 2>We only had two of us at Quantico at the

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<v Speaker 2>time of Ruby Ridge, and we managed the program for

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<v Speaker 2>all the others training guide and so forth operations. I

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<v Speaker 2>was literally out of the country on a anniversary trip

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<v Speaker 2>with my wife overseas and when Ruby Ridge occurred, so

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<v Speaker 2>my partner was sent out to Ruby Ridge. So I

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<v Speaker 2>was not there, as you suggested. The twenty eighteen Paramount

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<v Speaker 2>six part mini series showed me there, And the reason

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<v Speaker 2>they did that is because I was portrayed in the

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<v Speaker 2>series by the actor, the great actor, Michael Shannon, and

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<v Speaker 2>they needed to get him in the first episode, so

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<v Speaker 2>they wrote me into that incident doing the things that

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<v Speaker 2>in fact my partner actually did. And I wasn't, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly happy with that or comfortable with that. But one

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<v Speaker 2>of the things I learned, when someone buys your book rights,

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<v Speaker 2>then you have some influence, but you don't have control.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, Hollywood, I think they did a very

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<v Speaker 2>good job on that series, but there's some things about

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<v Speaker 2>it that I disagreed with, and some portrayals I would

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<v Speaker 2>have liked to see done differently. But yeah, and one

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<v Speaker 2>of the things about Ruby Ridge. As tragic as it was,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it started off between the Marshall Service trying

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<v Speaker 2>to execute a warrant for atf shootout that resulted in

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<v Speaker 2>Sammy Weaver being killed in one of the marshals, and

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<v Speaker 2>then you know, the FBI was deployed out there with

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<v Speaker 2>its blusted rescue team. It's tactical team, it's a national

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<v Speaker 2>counter terrorism tactical team, and very quickly it accelerated and

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<v Speaker 2>the FBI ended up shooting and wounding Weaver and one

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<v Speaker 2>of his friends, and as they were running back into

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<v Speaker 2>the cabin, one of those bullets went through a door

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<v Speaker 2>and behind the door was Vicky Weaver, and it killed

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<v Speaker 2>her while she's sitting there holding her baby. And it's

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<v Speaker 2>an unbelievably tragic event. But what people forget is that

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<v Speaker 2>situation was resolved peacefully through negotiations after about eight days

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<v Speaker 2>whatever it was, despite a horrendous situation that the negotiators

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<v Speaker 2>arrived at. It's kind of hard to make friends with

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<v Speaker 2>somebody when you've shot them and their wives killed and

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<v Speaker 2>their son's been killed, whether you were involved or responsible

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<v Speaker 2>for that or not. In the case of the sun,

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<v Speaker 2>so you know that that had not fully been resolved

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<v Speaker 2>I legally or otherwise. Six months later when Waco occurred

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<v Speaker 2>and we ended up having some of the same, in

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<v Speaker 2>my view, deficient leadership decision making that really contributed greatly

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<v Speaker 2>to the outcome.

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<v Speaker 1>Would that be considered in your personal views as successful?

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<v Speaker 2>No? No, I didn't mean to suggest I thought the

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<v Speaker 2>incident was success. Well, I'm just saying it was successfully negotiated.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, in many respects shows the value and power

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<v Speaker 2>of negotiations that, despite these horrendous conditions that had taken

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<v Speaker 2>place before, communication was open. Despite that, nonetheless, negotiations were

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<v Speaker 2>able to resolve at peacefully, and that accrues to my

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<v Speaker 2>partner and the team he had out there. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's just an important note to make. No success

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<v Speaker 2>when I mean, when innocent lives are lost, it's never

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<v Speaker 2>it's never a success.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Thanks for clearing that up. Would there have been

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<v Speaker 1>anything I know this is hyperbole in conjecture. Would there

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<v Speaker 1>have been anything that you would have done differently at

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<v Speaker 1>the standoff Rubui Bridge if you were there were there

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<v Speaker 1>negotiations between Brandy and the f during the eleven days

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<v Speaker 1>at all?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, there were later on, But what I would have

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<v Speaker 2>done differently is. I wouldn't have started out with a

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<v Speaker 2>what we call rules of engagement that essentially said the

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<v Speaker 2>FBI marksmen could shoot anybody they saw with a weapon.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, not only is that the wrong approach, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's also illegal. It's unconstitutional. You know, an FBI agent,

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<v Speaker 2>a police officer is allowed to use deadly force only

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<v Speaker 2>to save their life or the life of someone else.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't just shoot somebody because they have a gun

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<v Speaker 2>or they've done something bad prior. So that I think

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<v Speaker 2>was a terrible set of instructions that FBI personnel were

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<v Speaker 2>given and sent up the mountain, and those conditions presented themselves,

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<v Speaker 2>and sure enough shots were fired, and it just made

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<v Speaker 2>an already bad situation with Sammy Weaver having been killed

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<v Speaker 2>by the marshals, just made a bad situation worse. So

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<v Speaker 2>I would have started out with negotiations. We always say

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<v Speaker 2>it's easy to move easier to move from negotiations to

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<v Speaker 2>tactics if absolutely necessary. It's very hard to start off

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<v Speaker 2>with tactics that go badly and then succeed with negotiations.