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<v Speaker 1>In a striking story that highlights the tension between personal

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<v Speaker 1>beliefs and medical advice, Alex Gooding, a self proclaimed triad

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<v Speaker 1>wife and mother of seven, is navigating a dangerous pregnancy

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<v Speaker 1>condition known as cesarean scar atopic pregnancy or c SEP.

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<v Speaker 1>Despite medical consensus that continuing the pregnancy poses severe risk

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<v Speaker 1>to her health, Gooding insists on moving forward, rejecting her

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<v Speaker 1>doctor's advice to terminate. This decision has sparked criticism not

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<v Speaker 1>only for the potential harm to herself, but also for

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<v Speaker 1>the influence she wields as an influencer with conservative anti abortion.

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<v Speaker 1>Her story racist critical questions about the impact of ideology

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<v Speaker 1>on health decisions, the role of influencers in perpetuating harmful narratives,

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<v Speaker 1>and the consequences for families left behind. At its heart,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a cautionary tale about the life threatening costs of

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<v Speaker 1>prioritizing belief over evident. The story is from the Friendly No,

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<v Speaker 1>This story is from the Friendly Atheist, rather by him

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<v Speaker 1>and Meta on October twenty eighth, twenty twenty four. So, Eli,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm coming to you again because why not? So? How

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<v Speaker 1>do we balance personal beliefs with medical advice? Especially when

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<v Speaker 1>those beliefs put others at risks, such as dependent children

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<v Speaker 1>or family members.

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<v Speaker 2>The thing is, I'm not sure that we're obligated to

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<v Speaker 2>the fact of the matter is that she's still allowed

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<v Speaker 2>to make this choice, just as much as she should

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<v Speaker 2>be allowed to make the choice to have the abortion.

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<v Speaker 2>Should that be that what she wants to do. As

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<v Speaker 2>long as she's an alert and oriented, conscious adult, she

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<v Speaker 2>can make her own medical decisions. Now, unless she has

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<v Speaker 2>an advanced directive on file, then they're just going to

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<v Speaker 2>take life saving measures as soon as she goes unconscious anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>But the fact of the matter is you your primary

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<v Speaker 2>obligation is to make choices for your own way well being,

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<v Speaker 2>because nobody else is going to prioritize your own well

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<v Speaker 2>being over theirs. So you know, at least if you

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<v Speaker 2>think it a purely like animalistic evolutionary is sort of

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<v Speaker 2>primitive sort of context. So I mean, yeah, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think necessarily that the need to balance those things is there.

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<v Speaker 2>I think someone can take their personal beliefs and make

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<v Speaker 2>their own medical choices for themselves based on that.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I have an antidote if you all don't mind.

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<v Speaker 1>I was speaking to one of my clients who is

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<v Speaker 1>a serial smoker who also deals with COPD and also asthma. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things that I was speaking with them

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<v Speaker 1>about when I was doing their assessment is the you

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<v Speaker 1>know them smoking, And of course, as a healthcare professional,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to bring up, hey, you have these chronic

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<v Speaker 1>conditions and they're exasperated by your smoking, maybe you should

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<v Speaker 1>rethink I don't know smoking. And he implied and told

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<v Speaker 1>me that, well, yeah, I know. My doctor brings it

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<v Speaker 1>up a lot. And I'm like, em, you think when

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<v Speaker 1>I listen to your doctor just saying and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I know that you as as a person in my position,

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<v Speaker 1>can only warn at the end of the day. These

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<v Speaker 1>people are adults, right, But it's one thing that my

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<v Speaker 1>client is in his home making a adverse healthcare decision

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<v Speaker 1>on his own that influences him and him alone. But

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<v Speaker 1>when you're looking at Alex Gooding, who has I don't

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<v Speaker 1>even know how many follows she has, I believe it

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<v Speaker 1>is it over a million? I want to say it's

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<v Speaker 1>over a million. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I

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<v Speaker 1>mean only and I may be I may be overestimating

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<v Speaker 1>because it.

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<v Speaker 3>Was one hundred thousand. Yeah, like is that because of

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<v Speaker 3>this whole thing or is that something that happened before.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, she's an influencer who is talking about

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<v Speaker 1>her family. She's a mom of seven, she's a your

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<v Speaker 1>traditional housewife. She makes sure that you know, her husband

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<v Speaker 1>comes home with his pipe and slippers, just like the

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<v Speaker 1>Donna Reed show. So and she is talking to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>possibly thousands and thousands of people, you know, and I

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<v Speaker 1>would suspect like a majority of them being other women

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<v Speaker 1>who you know, jive with her story, right, But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>but at the same time, I and I like to

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<v Speaker 1>just preface that an et topic pregnancy is never a

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<v Speaker 1>viable pregnancy. If that particular pregnancy is not dealt with,

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<v Speaker 1>the person who is pregnant can and most likely will die.

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<v Speaker 1>So there is still this other portion of responsibility, And Jimmy,

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<v Speaker 1>I would like for you to talk about that. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>even though like, yes, we know that she's an adult,

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<v Speaker 1>she has the right to make her own decisions about

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<v Speaker 1>how she's going to deal with her particular medical choices.

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<v Speaker 1>But she says, an influencer, what is the what is

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<v Speaker 1>the responsibility she has to the people that's actually listening

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<v Speaker 1>to her, and what kind of things could happen if

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<v Speaker 1>she goes through this, and another possibility that people who

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<v Speaker 1>are able to get pregnant are listening to her and

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<v Speaker 1>thinkingness this is a good choice too.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So I think if she's going to go through

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<v Speaker 3>with behavior like this and she is going to kind

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<v Speaker 3>of cast her life as an episode for these people

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<v Speaker 3>to watch, that she needs to be honest and not

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<v Speaker 3>cut out the parts that she doesn't want them to see. So,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, when she goes and gets a second opinion,

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<v Speaker 3>which I think she has a responsibility to go do,

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<v Speaker 3>because she's not going to get advice in her Holy

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<v Speaker 3>Book on how to handle this. That's something that we know.

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<v Speaker 3>Unless she wants to bring her vision back by rubbing

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<v Speaker 3>dirt in her eyes, that's a story that I don't

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<v Speaker 3>need to get into. But we know that God has

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<v Speaker 3>no medical expertise, So if you disagree with your first doctor,

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<v Speaker 3>certainly go to the second doctor. But I would almost

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<v Speaker 3>bet that the doctor that she describes in her little

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<v Speaker 3>episode here is not the kind of person that she

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<v Speaker 3>makes him out to be. She says that the doctor

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<v Speaker 3>was rude and refused to acknowledge her and only turned

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<v Speaker 3>to her husband and said, you need to make sure

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<v Speaker 3>that she terminates this embryo. I would guarantee that what

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<v Speaker 3>really happened is that this person, she was so dismissive

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<v Speaker 3>of this guy who dedicated his life to not only

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<v Speaker 3>becoming an expert in his field, but saving other people's lives,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know, in order to just suffice her religious leanings,

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<v Speaker 3>her dogma that she's aligned herself with, she's kind of

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<v Speaker 3>painted him to be the adversary in this story, when

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<v Speaker 3>in fact, she is really being the adversary for the

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<v Speaker 3>people that look up to her when she's not being

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<v Speaker 3>honest with them about the medical advice that she's getting. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>this is a lot of conjecture, but I'm not saying

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<v Speaker 3>this because I don't know of other instances where I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know the kind of people I'm talking about. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>these our people that are not completely honest with themselves

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<v Speaker 3>about what is good for them and what are good

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<v Speaker 3>for their families because they take advice from people who

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<v Speaker 3>are not trained and not professionals in these medical fields,

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<v Speaker 3>in these healthcare fields. You know, they're taking advice from priests,

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<v Speaker 3>they're taking advice from old men, and these are young

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<v Speaker 3>women having complicated pregnancies. Multiple pregnancies, so she has a responsibility,

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<v Speaker 3>I think, to care for her viewers, her influencers by

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<v Speaker 3>giving them all of the data.

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<v Speaker 1>That's my take, what data the data from? Because Jesus said,

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<v Speaker 1>I was going to say that, well, if we want

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<v Speaker 1>to go into medical advice from the bibble, she could

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<v Speaker 1>always drink the bitter water. But you know her husband

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<v Speaker 1>would have to take her to the priests first for

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<v Speaker 1>her to do it. Eli, you mentioned in your notes

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<v Speaker 1>about her having a valid complaint about one of her interactions.

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<v Speaker 1>You want to actually talk about that a little bit more.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, Jimmy kind of just like throw that out

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<v Speaker 2>to window, because that was the interaction, the one that

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<v Speaker 2>Alex Gooding describes. Uh well, I'm like, so if that's

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<v Speaker 2>a if that is the truth about that interaction, that's

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<v Speaker 2>a valid complaint because as she tells it, she told

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<v Speaker 2>that she went to a second OB told that OB

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<v Speaker 2>she didn't want to terminate that. OBI completely dismissed her,

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<v Speaker 2>turned to her husband and was like you need to

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<v Speaker 2>make her do this, which is like really dismissive of

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<v Speaker 2>her like agency and autonomy. But I think it probably

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<v Speaker 2>is pretty likely. As Jimmy said that, like that's probably

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<v Speaker 2>not how it went. It was probably something a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more like him telling her the cold hard truth about

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<v Speaker 2>what will happen if she doesn't terminate the pregnancy, and

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<v Speaker 2>her not liking the way that he or she or

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<v Speaker 2>they said that and just kind of taking an issue

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<v Speaker 2>with that and sort of inflating the story a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>But it is sort of even if if regardless of

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<v Speaker 2>which of those two things is the case, it is

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<v Speaker 2>still a remnant I think of like, as Het Meta

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<v Speaker 2>points out in the article of that COVID era, like

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<v Speaker 2>do your own research, because now people are starting to

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<v Speaker 2>think that if they google the right words, which they

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<v Speaker 2>almost never do, then they can learn as much about

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<v Speaker 2>their condition as an MD or a DOO, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>just not the case, and it leads to stupid decisions

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<v Speaker 2>like this.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, speaking on that, we are in an information age,

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<v Speaker 1>where as you mentioned that just about any topic that

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<v Speaker 1>you want to learn more about is available at your finger.

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<v Speaker 1>We have more information coming through our little cellular phone

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<v Speaker 1>than any person ever had in a lifetime and the

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<v Speaker 1>lifetime's previous to us. And there are reputable sites that

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<v Speaker 1>actually talk about different conditions that people can have managed

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<v Speaker 1>or even talk about saliently concerning the outcomes if those

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<v Speaker 1>conditions are not cared for properly. And I'm thinking to myself,

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<v Speaker 1>especially if we're talking about responsibility, going back to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the first portion, about the responsibility that she has to

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<v Speaker 1>her the influences, what about her children, What about the

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<v Speaker 1>responsibility that she has to her children that she is

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<v Speaker 1>with now, As you stated, Eli, I've had really and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, and I mean, like I guess I can

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<v Speaker 1>speak to this and personal experience that in the past

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<v Speaker 1>I've had had tough conversations with doctor and and some doctors, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>have been dismissive of some of my concerns and and

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't and and giving some of the data

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<v Speaker 1>that is concerned when it comes to black people and

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<v Speaker 1>health and also women and how they're treated when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to you know, some doctors. It's not I don't

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily think it's a far fetched idea to say that

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<v Speaker 1>biases and issues when it comes to how you know,

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<v Speaker 1>healthcare professionals relate to these groups exist, right. But at

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<v Speaker 1>the same time, I find it very difficult to believe

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<v Speaker 1>because like I, as I mentioned previously, EP topic, pregnancies

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<v Speaker 1>are never viable and they can kill you if you

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<v Speaker 1>don't take care of it right there and right there

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<v Speaker 1>as soon as it's discovered. I'm just wondering to myself

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<v Speaker 1>and Jimmy if you can kind of like fire off

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<v Speaker 1>because I think that you mentioned this a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>more about the responsibility she has to her children, her

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<v Speaker 1>her families when it comes to the healthcare decisions that

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<v Speaker 1>she makes that could possibly take her life, Like, what

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<v Speaker 1>is her responsibility? Do you think that she's being irresponsible

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<v Speaker 1>but not really taking some of these things seriously.

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<v Speaker 3>I absolutely think she's being irresponsible, you know. Hem and

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<v Speaker 3>Metta and I quoted in my show notes in preparation

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<v Speaker 3>for tonight, made the point she should take her other

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<v Speaker 3>kids into account. There is nothing brave about continuing this pregnancy.

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<v Speaker 3>She is not a role model, and I do believe

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<v Speaker 3>that to be the case. She's being incredibly irresponsible. First,

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<v Speaker 3>she brags about having seven children and having had six

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<v Speaker 3>when I think she means miscarriages by saying she has

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<v Speaker 3>seven children and six in heaven. This is somebody who

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<v Speaker 3>has been constantly pregnant her entire life. She's probably put

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<v Speaker 3>an incredible strain on her body, which is why she's

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<v Speaker 3>in the position that she's in, and I think it's

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<v Speaker 3>now time to start focusing on the children that are

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<v Speaker 3>alive and keeping yourself alive because you chose to bring

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<v Speaker 3>them into this world, you know, and they didn't ask

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<v Speaker 3>to be here, right, and they are young and they

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<v Speaker 3>need to navigate through life, and you, as their mother,

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<v Speaker 3>who is so proudly proclaiming that as your primary role

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<v Speaker 3>in life to be a mother, I mean, for crying

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<v Speaker 3>out loud. Her Facebook name is growing Goodings, right because

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<v Speaker 3>her last name is Gooding and all she does with

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<v Speaker 3>her life is just grow goodings. Well, you're not going

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<v Speaker 3>to do that if you purposely reject medical professionals advice,

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<v Speaker 3>doctor's advice and end up killing yourself. Unfortunately, you're not

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<v Speaker 3>going to be able to be this person that you

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<v Speaker 3>proclaimed to be. So get off of your high horse, Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>get off of this religious pedestal that you putting yourself

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<v Speaker 3>on and recognize that you have a responsibility to kids.

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<v Speaker 3>And what I would love to see, and I don't

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<v Speaker 3>expect it anytime soon, is for her and women like

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<v Speaker 3>her to recognize the way that religion has abused them

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<v Speaker 3>and indoctrinated them into a position where they have one

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<v Speaker 3>role in life.

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<v Speaker 2>They have one role, and that is to.

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<v Speaker 3>Be an incubator for their husbands, but also their husband's caretaker,

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<v Speaker 3>and also not have a life of their own because

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<v Speaker 3>they have given their life to everybody else. That's not

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<v Speaker 3>the way it should be. And so that's that's kind

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<v Speaker 3>of how I feel about that. She's certainly, in more

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<v Speaker 3>ways than one, neglecting the children she already has.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I definitely have to say, as as a person

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<v Speaker 1>who has the ability to become pregnant, I was deeply

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<v Speaker 1>disturbed by the story and in a bit offended specifically

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<v Speaker 1>by her.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, you know what, Cynthia, I'm sorry, there's one thing

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<v Speaker 3>that I want to since you say that. So when

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<v Speaker 3>she got the news that her pregnancy was not viable,

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<v Speaker 3>she's the articles quoting her, she cried the entire ride

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<v Speaker 3>home in the car. Matt was on a call with work,

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<v Speaker 3>so he couldn't debrief with her. So you're getting terrible,

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<v Speaker 3>life threatening news and then crying the entire way home

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<v Speaker 3>and your husband is on the phone the whole time.

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<v Speaker 3>Are you out of your mind? Have you not seen

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<v Speaker 3>the sign that you are less significant in this structure

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<v Speaker 3>that you're in? Something to think about.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the Bible definitely categorizes women as second, third, fourth,

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<v Speaker 1>fifth classes. Just keep it, one hundred one thousand person.

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<v Speaker 1>Women don't have agency. Women are property of their housbands.

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<v Speaker 1>And when the husband dies, it would be up to

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<v Speaker 1>the sun if he wants you to take care of

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<v Speaker 1>the mother, and then the mother will have to basically

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<v Speaker 1>do what the son tells her to do. So and

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<v Speaker 1>this is the type of sensibilities that are taught in

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<v Speaker 1>these particular churches that showed this particular structure, right, that

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<v Speaker 1>the husband is the head of the household and the

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<v Speaker 1>only one that he is actually subjugated to is God.

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<v Speaker 1>And the woman is us subjugated to her husband, and

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<v Speaker 1>the children are subjugated to their parents. But even if

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<v Speaker 1>but as we've heard rhetoric not too long ago, just

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<v Speaker 1>wait until your father gets home. Oh wait until daddy

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<v Speaker 1>gets home, because daddy is the one who's going to

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<v Speaker 1>have the final say on how everything goes. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and I would have to you know, quote VP. Harris

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<v Speaker 1>when she said that not every woman is trying to

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<v Speaker 1>be humble. I have to say that. And and what

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<v Speaker 1>do we mean by what do I mean by that?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that there are a good number of us

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<v Speaker 1>who noticed that we have this thing called a brain

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<v Speaker 1>that can learn things, that we can use to do

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<v Speaker 1>other things other than being somebody's mama, being somebody's wife, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>and that we can actually contribute to society with our

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<v Speaker 1>brains and actually build outside of family structures. Okay. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's one of the reasons why I was very offended

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<v Speaker 1>by this particular story. And another reason is is that

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<v Speaker 1>the indoctrination of Alex Gooding is so deep, it's so pervasive,

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<v Speaker 1>to the point where she really feels that this is

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<v Speaker 1>the heel that she literally is going to die on.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that, Eli, you talked a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>about that in your notes about this, the stances she's

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<v Speaker 1>going to get, it's like going to be unrewarding. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you talk a little bit more about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And you guys, actually listening to the two of

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<v Speaker 2>you cracked this wide open for me. I understand that's

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<v Speaker 2>on a whole new level now. So she is she

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<v Speaker 2>has this idea that God has a plan and no

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<v Speaker 2>matter what happens, it's part of God's plan. So if

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<v Speaker 2>she dies, she dies. She doesn't think she's taking a risk.

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<v Speaker 2>She thinks she's trusting God, right. The other thing is that,

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<v Speaker 2>as the two of you pointed out, she's so indoctrinated

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<v Speaker 2>to think that having children is what she's supposed to do.

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<v Speaker 2>She looks back on how you know, she used you know,

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<v Speaker 2>IVF in some of her previous pregnancies. She has delivered

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<v Speaker 2>via c section. So these are some people hold the

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<v Speaker 2>idea that, you know, giving giving birth or getting pregnant

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<v Speaker 2>in certain ways isn't you know, real pregnancy or real birth.

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<v Speaker 2>And she didn't express that at least in what we read.

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<v Speaker 2>But she may hold the view that if she can't naturally,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, conceive and state a baby on her own

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<v Speaker 2>without medical help, then she's failing at what God put

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<v Speaker 2>her here to do. So she may be of the

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<v Speaker 2>mind that, like, if I can't do this naturally, then

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna die trying to because that's God's plan

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<v Speaker 2>for me. So I don't think she sees it as

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<v Speaker 2>if she's like shirking a responsibility that she has. She thinks, sir,

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<v Speaker 2>most responsibility is to God.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm sure that she doesn't see it that way.

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<v Speaker 3>And that was a really astute, very like eye opening

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<v Speaker 3>perspective that you just gave you lie.

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<v Speaker 1>My question is.

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<v Speaker 3>If things are supposed to go to according to God's plan, well,

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<v Speaker 3>then why did she take the IVF in the first place,

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<v Speaker 3>And why did she trust the medical professionals in the

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<v Speaker 3>first place? And what now she doesn't trust the medical professionals.

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<v Speaker 3>What a turn of events and what an inconsistency.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, I think this also speaks to the

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<v Speaker 1>whole notion of cherry picking when it comes to your beliefs.

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<v Speaker 1>And let me tell you something for you guys that's

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<v Speaker 1>out there that never been pregnant or shot a kid

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<v Speaker 1>out your fallopian tube, whether if you have it the

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<v Speaker 1>the you know, the wambam, thank you man way, or

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<v Speaker 1>if you have it through the IVF way, you gon't

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<v Speaker 1>feel it regardless of how it's gonna come out, whether

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<v Speaker 1>you get IVF or not, it's a real pregnancy. Let

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<v Speaker 1>me tell you, you.

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<v Speaker 3>Know, Cynthia, Yeah, I have I have something I need

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<v Speaker 3>to say. Okay, So I want to talk about my

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<v Speaker 3>wife for a second, because I did something horrible today. Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>And since we're on the topic of women, and I

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<v Speaker 3>want everybody to know that I love my wife very much.

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<v Speaker 3>I forgot our fourth wedding anniversary which is today, which

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<v Speaker 3>is today.

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<v Speaker 2>I did.

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<v Speaker 3>It was horrible. It was horrible.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm so.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm such a bad man. I'm such a bad No,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not. I'm just.

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<v Speaker 1>So. I told my wife.

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<v Speaker 3>I told my wife that not only would I say

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<v Speaker 3>happy happy anniversary, Deanna and I love you, but you

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<v Speaker 3>guys would say happy anniversary as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Could you help me the anniversary?

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<v Speaker 1>You know what? Not only will I say it.

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<v Speaker 2>Jimmy, and thank you for sharing Jimmy with us today.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for sharing Jimmy Deanna. But you know I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not only will I say it, I will sing it. Yes, yes, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I haven't saying anything on this program for quite some time.

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<v Speaker 1>So excuse me, meet me me. Okay, very good, Happy anniversary, Anna,

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<v Speaker 1>Happy anniversary, Deanna, Happy anniversary, Dianna. I'm not gonna mention

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<v Speaker 1>Jimmy because he forgot happy Aniverse serie too.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh that was beautiful. That was beautiful. She's gonna love that.

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<v Speaker 3>We're gonna go out and celebrate. It's Wednesday, so and

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<v Speaker 3>and you know, we got a very important mission here,

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<v Speaker 3>so uh, she of course encouraged me to continue.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh and do what we're doing.

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<v Speaker 3>We're gonna go celebrate this Saturday, and I came home

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<v Speaker 3>with a dozen roses for her and UH. I really,

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<v Speaker 3>I really felt like an idiot. But I love you

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<v Speaker 3>Deanna and uh and I hope you feel that I

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<v Speaker 3>deserve you.