WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:09.759 Oh ye is, folks, it's showtime. People say good money 2 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:10.800 to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:13.080 When they go out to a theater, they are cold 4 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:17.199 sodas from hot popcorn in no monsters in a protection booth. 5 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:21.039 Everyone for tend podcasting isn't boring, cut it off. 6 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:46.079 In nineteen seventy four, a motion picture shunt the world. 7 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:50.159 It has become one of the most acclaimed and successful 8 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:54.799 films in history. The Anxiousist is a classic in its 9 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:59.719 own time. And now Warner Brothers takes you a step 10 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:16.640 y'all Exorcist to the Heretic starring Linda Blair, Richard Burton, 11 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:28.079 Louise Fletcher. Excellent see don James E. Jones. Their mind's 12 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:32.719 a lot together with the most terrifying vision of all 13 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.840 Exorcist to the Heretic. 14 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:51.359 Hey, folks, welcome to a very special episode of The 15 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:54.239 Projection Booth. I'm your host Mike White. On this episode, 16 00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:57.079 I am talking with David Kittridge, who has been a 17 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:00.519 co host on the show many, many times ever since. 18 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:02.239 The very first time he was on the show, he 19 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:05.319 was talking about a documentary he was working on, which 20 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:08.400 at the time was called Heretics. It is now called 21 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:12.080 Borman and the Devil, and it is making the round 22 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:15.919 at festivals. Just played the Brooklyn Horror Film Festival, has 23 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.800 played at Beyond Fest, played at Venice, and is coming 24 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:24.000 to hopefully a neighborhood near you very soon. Is great 25 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:26.840 finally sitting down and talking about the movie. I've seen it. 26 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:29.759 It's fantastic, had a lot of fun with it. I 27 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:33.520 would highly recommend it to everyone out there. And of 28 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:36.400 course I asked David when he first got the idea 29 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:37.759 of starting to work on. 30 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:41.719 This in twenty seventeen, my friend Jeffrey Schwarz, who's a 31 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:45.080 documentary filmmaker. He's done a lot of really great documentaries. 32 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.360 I Am Divine is my favorite. He did Veto, he 33 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:51.280 did hob Hunter Confidential. He did one called Boulevard a 34 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:54.840 couple of years ago, a really fantastic one on William Passel. 35 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:58.520 I had no thought to actually making a documentary because 36 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:02.360 I know how much work they are. They are a 37 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:04.319 lot of work. You take a normal narrative film and 38 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:06.879 you multiply it by another normal narrative film, and that's 39 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:11.080 what a documentary is. And he was on me to 40 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:13.120 do a documentary about Exorcist too, because he knew I 41 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:17.319 loved the film so much, and you'd have been obsessed 42 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:20.400 with it since my twenties. He basically said to me 43 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:22.039 one night I was over at his place. We were 44 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:24.400 watching a movie or something, and he said, if you 45 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:28.800 don't make this documentary, no one ever will. And I 46 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:31.199 was really irritated because I knew he was right. I 47 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:35.560 knew that Borman was getting up there. Louis and Ross 48 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:37.439 Bo and other people, they were all getting up there, 49 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:39.120 and I knew it. I knew they were approaching their 50 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:41.199 eighties or in their eighties, and Borman's case, he was 51 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:44.439 well into his eighties. And so he said, if I 52 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.840 could get you contact with Borman, would you consider making 53 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:49.400 this documentary. I was just like, I get to talk 54 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:53.199 to John Borman. Sure, I'm a fan. I think ex 55 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:55.680 Caliber is a masterpiece. I think Point Blank is an 56 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:59.919 insanely amazing film. The general hope and glory I could 57 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.240 go on at any rate. What happened was Jeffrey had 58 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:08.039 made a documentary involving Paul Verhoven. And there's an author 59 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:10.280 who wrote a book about Paul Verhoven, but he also 60 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.879 wrote a book about John Borman. So Jeffrey knew this guy. Well. 61 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:17.839 I think he's in Ireland, and I wrote him an 62 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:20.560 email basically saying can you forward this to John Borman? 63 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:22.720 He did. John Borman wrote me back and I was 64 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:25.199 just I was like, what John Borman just wrote me 65 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:28.759 an email? And basically what happened was we started talking 66 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.120 and we had a Skype call where we were like 67 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.079 zooming that old thing called Skype that doesn't exist anymore, 68 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:39.480 things to Microsoft. Basically at the end of it, I said, 69 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:43.040 would you be okay with me coming to Ireland and 70 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:45.720 shooting you for an interview? And he said yes. And 71 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:48.839 then that was when I knew, okay, I had to 72 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:50.879 do this. Why I could not live with myself if 73 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:53.279 I didn't do this. And I had a friend of 74 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:57.600 mine named Carson Gaspar who's been my friend for decades, 75 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:01.000 literally like we were a little I need something gay 76 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:03.959 boys running around New York at one point in the nineties, 77 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:07.240 and he let me a little money which I still 78 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:08.519 have to pay him back, and I will pay him 79 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:10.560 back that this movie gets distributed that I really wanted 80 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:14.279 to and yeah, I went to Ireland, we got a crew. 81 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:17.800 I shot John for a day. It was a full day, 82 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:21.920 and I left with an interview that I knew that 83 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:25.160 interview was important and special. I was like, this is 84 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:29.519 one of the great filmmakers. And it wasn't just talking 85 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:31.639 about the Heretic. We were talking about all of his 86 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:33.920 other work. We were talking about how we came up, 87 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:37.079 we were talking about his views on cinema today. He 88 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:40.720 gave me anecdotes on all of these filmmakers, most of 89 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:42.879 which did not make it into the cut because there 90 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:47.360 was just so much, and I knew that I needed 91 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:49.759 to tell the story. I literally felt like I could 92 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:53.519 make a documentary just on Bormann's interview, but we were 93 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:57.439 lucky enough to The next one was Linda Blair, and 94 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:01.120 she said yes once she heard that we got and 95 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:04.319 I had to reassure both of them that this was 96 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:06.480 not some kind of an exorcist Oh look at the 97 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:08.560 bad movie. We get to make fun of people movie, 98 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:13.439 this snide golden turkey bullshit. And I think what convinced 99 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:16.959 John was I brought up Black Narcissus, the Palm Presburger movie, 100 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:19.560 because one of the things that Exorcists two did very 101 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:22.519 consciously was he shot almost the whole movie on sound stages, 102 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:27.639 including exteriors, including African exteriors like this African village. These 103 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:33.079 were all in sound stages and it's this weird vibe 104 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:38.920 that it's not realistic, but you're in that reality anyway. 105 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:42.040 And the movie that reminded me the most of was 106 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:47.199 The Black Narcissus Biden Pressburger and I mentioned that and 107 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:49.560 he was I did not know this. He was a 108 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:52.000 huge and Pressburger fan, and I guess I could have 109 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:55.240 put that together. He's a British filmmaker and they were huge, 110 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:59.079 one of the most important filmmaking duos in British films. 111 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:04.079 I think, possibly the most underrated filmmakers that have ever 112 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.079 been behind a camera. They had a run of those 113 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:10.480 four films that were just unlike Blife About the Colonel Blimp, 114 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:13.600 Black Narcissus, The Red Shoes, A Matter of Life and Death, 115 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:16.439 just those. They also made other good movies, but those 116 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:21.639 four films are such bullet proof, honest to goodness, top 117 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.360 one hundred masterpieces. There are almost no directors that I 118 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:29.240 think have done anything like that. Kupri Hitchcock, we're talking 119 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:33.800 about the greats. Anyway. He vibed on the fact that 120 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:37.439 I got the Black Narcissus reference because it was something 121 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:40.680 he was inspired by. That film, Black Narcissist. Once we 122 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:44.279 got Linda, we got Louise Fletcher, and then we got 123 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:49.879 Roswell Pallenberg and then the pandemic happened and we were 124 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:54.560 unable to shoot anybody for almost two years. So it 125 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:57.240 was just a long process. So all in all, going 126 00:07:57.279 --> 00:07:59.959 back to twenty seventeen, we didn't shoot Boorman until early 127 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:04.120 twenty eighteen. But it's over seven years. It's almost eight years. 128 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:06.600 They say documentaries take a long time. I thought it 129 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:09.000 was gonna take like maybe two or three years when 130 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.079 I was starting, but the double whammy of the pandemic 131 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:16.360 and the fact that I basically had to take edit 132 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:19.279 jobs just keep the lights on. I'm not rich, and 133 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:22.480 this money was coming from mostly me. We had a 134 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:26.879 couple of donors from wealthy friends because we set up 135 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:29.720 a film collaborative and one of the things it offers 136 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:35.440 to sponsor a film for finance. So theiry nonprofit. The 137 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:38.480 Film Collaborative is a nonprofit. So what this person with 138 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:40.720 money would do was they would give money to the 139 00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:44.879 Film Collaborative for my movie. The film Collaborative has to 140 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:47.279 approve it first, because there's this whole thing where they 141 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:48.960 have to make sure it's for real. They have to 142 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.559 make sure it's a worthy project because their mission is 143 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.480 to help make films that are worthy, He'll think. And 144 00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:58.639 I had to submit a lot of stuff, but I 145 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:00.799 got approved. And then these people, so they would donate 146 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:05.039 to the film collabors then assign ninety five percent of 147 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:08.159 that money to the film, and they keep five percent 148 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:12.279 for overhead for their nonprofit. In this way, these people, 149 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.240 because it's always a crapshoot whether anything's going to pay back. 150 00:09:15.320 --> 00:09:18.360 Most independent films, almost all independent films do not make 151 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:22.440 their money back, especially documentaries. They get a tax break 152 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:25.519 because they donated to a charity and then the movie 153 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:28.679 gets the money and everybody's happy. So we got some 154 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:32.080 money that way. But yeah, it just took a really 155 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:35.600 long time because I had my producers, Jim Fallen, Travis Stevens, 156 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:38.279 who were helping, but I was the only editor on 157 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:40.639 this film. I was the only director, the only writer, 158 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:44.080 the only editor. Ninety something percent of the work came 159 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:46.639 from me. And I don't feel bad about saying that. 160 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:49.240 I think Travis and Jim would agree, but they were 161 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:52.080 invaluable partners in this too. They helped me so much 162 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:55.039 because the journey of this film. The last two years 163 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:58.840 was the most difficult because in August of twenty twenty three, 164 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:01.480 we had our first rough assa. I had cut a 165 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:03.639 first rough assembly. I think he even told you that, Mike, 166 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:07.240 And it was one hundred and ninety six minutes. This 167 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:10.919 was the version of the movie with everybody's stories in it. 168 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:14.080 Everybody had stories like the thing with this movie. When 169 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:15.799 we talked to the s crew members and we talked 170 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:18.039 to the actors and we did all this. These people 171 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.840 have had huge careers, all of these people. The Heretic 172 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:22.879 was a very early film for a lot of these 173 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.159 people that I talked to, but they remembered it like 174 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.879 it was yesterday. This was a shoot, and these are 175 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:32.840 people who have done so many movies and TV shows 176 00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:34.679 you just can't even count. Like you look at their 177 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:39.320 it's like it scrolls forever, you know. But they remember 178 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:43.320 The Heretic and they remember John. This was a very 179 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:48.639 special and particular production and shoot, and everybody remembered it 180 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:51.480 like it was yesterday, Like it was unbelievable. And I 181 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:56.039 got such amazing stories, like such detailed, amazing stories. And 182 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:58.360 so the one hundred and ninety six minute version was 183 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:01.039 the version but with all of the stories, and I 184 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:04.600 tested it with a few friends and basically the response 185 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:09.879 was very surprising because everybody said, at no time were 186 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:12.919 they ever bored ever and one hundred ninety six million movie. 187 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:16.799 I'm like, Wow, that's a that's an achievement. Wow, I 188 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:19.080 must be a good editor or something. I don't know, 189 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:22.279 but it was like the equivalent when we got back. 190 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.879 It's like the equivalent going to a really good restaurant 191 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:28.320 and getting three or four amazing entrees and it was 192 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.679 just too much. It was like, it's all great, but 193 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.639 this needs to be we need to be shaping this. 194 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:38.799 And I felt a real responsibility, especially after the interview 195 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:42.039 with John, I felt a real responsibility to tell the 196 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:46.279 story of this film and kind of the milieu around 197 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:48.320 it that allowed it to happen the way it did, 198 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.519 which was very particular and significant, and that is a 199 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:54.440 lot of the crux of the movie. I think you 200 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.320 and you and I Mike talked about this. It's like, 201 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:00.879 this movie is not really about Exorcist too. It's about it. 202 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:03.159 We have there's all the stories and this is like 203 00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:07.159 the foundation that the movie is, but it's about It's 204 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:10.000 really about the insanity of making movies, how much it 205 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:13.000 takes to make a movie, and this period of Hollywood 206 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:17.799 that an auteur like Borman could be given the biggest 207 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:20.320 budget in Warner Brothers history. Just think about that. It 208 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:22.879 is the biggest budget in Warner Brother's history to make 209 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:26.320 a sequel to the biggest movie in the studio's history, 210 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:28.399 and the third highest grossing movie of all time. The 211 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:32.120 Exorcist was iconic. It rewrote the book on horror, and 212 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:37.360 John Borman did this movie, which is so different. It's 213 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:40.320 not even a horror movie. It's a different genre. That 214 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.360 kind of audacity is I don't know if I've ever 215 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:46.840 seen it in any other movie. And it's not just 216 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:49.039 the movie, it's the fact that it was made and 217 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:51.799 made out a big studio on a huge budget, and 218 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:54.759 was a big summer release. This is an art movie. 219 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:57.879 This is like a surreal art movie and a sequel 220 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:00.799 to The Exorcist. It didn't fit and that's why it 221 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:04.039 was infamous and rejected and people were throwing stuff at 222 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:07.440 the screen. The whole story of this movie is, I feel, 223 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:11.159 just one of the most amazing Hollywood stories and no 224 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:12.960 one had told it, which is why the last two 225 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:14.720 years of cutting it down from one hundred and ninety 226 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:16.879 six minutes to one hundred and eleven minutes, which is 227 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:21.080 the final cut. Was just so hard. It made me 228 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.799 a better editor, but I went way past my own limits. 229 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:26.120 I think back to all the work I did on this, 230 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:28.600 it's like I can't even wrap my head around it 231 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:31.279 now here we are. The film played at the Venice 232 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:35.120 Film Festival, which is a dream. I could only dream 233 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.559 that it would have gotten into the Venice Film Festival. 234 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:39.960 And we had a big premiere out here in La 235 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:42.360 for Beyondfest, which was the North American premiere, and I'm 236 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.960 about to next week. I'm flying to New York to 237 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:47.919 be at the Brooklyn Horror Festival, which is the East 238 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:50.559 Coast premiere, and bouncing around the world. I think it 239 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:54.080 played in France and Norway, and it's going to play 240 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:58.399 in Poland. So I'm really I feel like I can 241 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:00.799 say without arrogance, so like, I really feel like this 242 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.279 is a great movie, and I don't feel like I 243 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.240 can completely take credit for it. So many things fell 244 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:09.360 into line on this movie I had nothing to do with, 245 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:12.799 and the most you could credit me with is identifying 246 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:14.919 them and making sure they were in the cut. That's 247 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:19.120 really it Borman to be that vulnerable and that open 248 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:23.679 and talking about his life and as an artist and cinema. 249 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.399 If you love movies, you need to hear this. I'm 250 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:30.440 not just saying that to promote my movie. I feel 251 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:32.200 like it's important. I feel like this is a great 252 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:35.519 artist talking about one of the newest art forms in 253 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.759 human history, and I think what he says is really valuable, 254 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.120 and what he says about living as an artist really 255 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.559 moved me and shook me to my core. And I 256 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:47.879 think that the people who watched the film, a lot 257 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:50.360 of people feel the same way. There were people crying 258 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:53.279 at the end of screenings, and one of them came 259 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:54.720 up to me. If you ever told me I was 260 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.840 going to be crying at the end of a screening 261 00:14:56.879 --> 00:14:59.440 about the making of Extorsies too, I'd have thought you 262 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:01.919 were crazy, because it's not really about that. It's about 263 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:06.279 this man, this great artist, making this vision and it 264 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:12.080 absolutely is just a catastrophe, but something comes out of it. 265 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.279 It redefined how he made movies, eager to find how 266 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:17.360 he viewed movies, and the movie he made after it 267 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:21.240 ex caliber. I genuinely think is John Borman's finest work. 268 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:24.320 And it's a work of fury. It's a work of 269 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:27.279 a man who has something to prove, who made one 270 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:31.879 of the most publican catastrophic studio releases in history, and 271 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:34.159 he really wanted to show people that he can make 272 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:37.200 movies like he made Deliverance. He called all the names 273 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:37.720 in the book. 274 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:42.279 It's obvious his love for film comes through with that 275 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:45.279 interview and with all of the things that he faced 276 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:48.960 and had to struggle through being sick for what six 277 00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:50.960 weeks and having to shut down production. 278 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:54.720 In the middle of production, John Borman gets a high 279 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.840 fever and a rational over his body and he's taken 280 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:02.279 into the ICU. He almost dies. They gave him spinal taps. 281 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:05.480 I literally saw the hospital bills at the University of 282 00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:07.559 Indiana where I was looking through his papers. I know, Mike, 283 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:11.039 you've been there. The man almost died and they shut 284 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:15.399 down this major studio production for five weeks, which was 285 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.960 a huge deal because they were locked into a release 286 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:22.799 date for reasons that are totally different and comes down 287 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:24.559 to how the movie was finance, which is a whole 288 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:27.200 nother story, but the way that this movie was financed, 289 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:29.720 this movie literally was one of the things that led 290 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.840 to it being legislated out of existence. That was the 291 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:35.919 impact of this movie. It was like a neutron bomb. 292 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:39.480 It was just like everything in its wake suffered the. 293 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:43.919 Love that he had or has for film, the passion 294 00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:47.519 that comes out from him. But what comes out even 295 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:49.919 more is the passion that you have for this project, 296 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:53.360 and that passion that you have from the very first 297 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:55.639 conversation you and I ever had back in either twenty 298 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:57.000 seventeen or twenty eighteen. 299 00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:59.080 It was one of those twenty seventeen Yeah, Mike, you 300 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:01.320 were one of the first people told I'm just like, 301 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.600 I don't know if I'm gonna do this, but somehow 302 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:05.640 I just feel like I need to make this movie, 303 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.440 which is interesting because I have all these projects in 304 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:10.640 front of me, the people. I'm trying to figure it out. 305 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.839 But it's like, what do I feel that strongly about 306 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.000 that I feel like about Extorsses too, and it's I 307 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.039 don't know. It may take a few weeks to just 308 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:20.160 meditate on it. I can't even tell you why I 309 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:22.599 love Extorsses Too so much. It's not even the movie, 310 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:27.559 because I understand the shoes this movie has. I don't 311 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:31.960 disagree Bornman would agree that this movie doesn't work at 312 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:35.440 least totally. But the audacity and the fact that they 313 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:39.960 took these risks, these crazy risks with this project on 314 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:43.599 such a huge scale. It's either gutsy or stupid. I 315 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:47.200 prefer to look at it as gutsy. But my god, 316 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:48.799 I don't know if you know a lot of artists, 317 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:51.119 but I know a lot of artists, and there's always 318 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.160 these things where they're afraid to do this. They're afraid 319 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:55.000 to do this project. Oh how will this get made? 320 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.160 Oh if I do this, then no one will try 321 00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:59.359 to finance it or whatever. And it's just I wanted 322 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:02.519 to make this movie be for those filmmakers who were 323 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:07.119 just despondent and dissatisfied. I'm like, they don't know what 324 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.880 the answer is. You got to do that thing that 325 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:14.119 you need to do, and it doesn't fucking matter what 326 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:17.200 you think is going to happen or not happen, whether 327 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:19.119 it's gonna get bought or like you're gonna be able 328 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.039 to raise money, that you have to do it anyway. 329 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.799 That's what an artist is like. There are just some 330 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:28.759 things that you just need to do in life, and this, 331 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:32.640 for me was one of them. And I'm still trying 332 00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:36.720 to decompress from it. I'm not quite there. It was 333 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:38.319 a lot just to get it ready for Venice, and 334 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:39.960 then we had to tweak some stuff and go back 335 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.599 in the mix before Beyond Fest and right now where 336 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:46.880 I'm cutting teasers and stuff for our sales reps to 337 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:50.359 pitch the distributors and stuff. But yeah, it's ongoing. I'm 338 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:53.240 still busy working on it, hoping that it's over. 339 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:57.720 So when did the title change from Heretics to Bormann 340 00:18:57.759 --> 00:18:58.319 and the Devil. 341 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:03.079 I think that was probably mid twenty twenty four or 342 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.240 late twenty twenty four. And the reason was very practical. 343 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.640 It's because that Hugh Grant movie called Heretic, which I 344 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:10.680 hear is good. I haven't seen it, but I hear 345 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.200 it's good. It was up for a Baftaz, so it 346 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:14.240 was not like a little released like people have seen 347 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.960 this film. And basically the point was it was always 348 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.000 Heretics colon something, Heretics brushed by the wings of Extoris Too, 349 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:27.079 Heretics the brilliant Disaster of extorsis Too, or Heretics John Borman, whatever. 350 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.680 It was always that. But changing it from Heretics did 351 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:32.880 two things. One is we got away from the Hugh 352 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.359 Grant movie at least, but in a lot of the 353 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:40.519 test screenings, people who were expecting a making of movie 354 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:44.720 were really thrown by the first I don't know, like 355 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:47.599 thirty minutes, because the first thirty minutes of the movie 356 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:50.599 really is about John and the movies he made going 357 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:54.640 up to the Heretic, and so people were like, why 358 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:56.200 are we seeing all this? We just want to see 359 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:58.920 Exorcist too. I'm just like, Yeah, it's not about that, 360 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.039 it's about all of this, and it really it's about 361 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:04.960 Borman making it. It's not about the movie itself, it's 362 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:07.680 about Borman and the journey through to make it. So 363 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.119 when we changed it to Borman and the Devil, and 364 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.640 we had a really long list by the way of titles, 365 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:14.519 and I was not sold on Borman and the Devil 366 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:16.640 for a really long time. I was just like, oh, 367 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:19.359 sounds like a like people are telling me to do 368 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:21.799 The Devil and John Borman, and that sounded too much 369 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:24.160 like The Devil and Daniel Webster. And I was just like, 370 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:26.480 which is a great movie, by the way, but it 371 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:29.680 has no bearing, just no similarity between this movie and 372 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:32.599 that movie. And I just liked Borman and the devil. 373 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.880 I was like, all right, and I started kicking it around. 374 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.920 And then when we showed it to a test audience 375 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:44.119 with that title, we immediately lost all of the snotty 376 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.160 notes from people about like why it's my bad exorsis fair, 377 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:49.400 and we lost all of them simply because we changed 378 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.240 the title. And I was like, that was nice, that's good. 379 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:55.519 I thought it was gonna have to do some kind 380 00:20:55.559 --> 00:21:00.000 of editing jiu jitsu because we were trying to figure out, like, oh, 381 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.519 so do we do it so that we just start 382 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:03.480 with Harry taking then we Pepper ran his stuff and 383 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:05.279 I'm like, no, that doesn't make any sense and it's 384 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:07.799 going to be confusing, and yeah, we trust me. We 385 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.319 tried every sort of edit. We tried to address all 386 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.079 of the significant notes, which was like the notes that 387 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:16.119 we would get more than once or twice, and it 388 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:17.759 was just a lot. It was a lot of tests 389 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:21.039 and we tested it. I got probably sixteen or seventeen 390 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:25.039 times over those two years, different cuts everything from the 391 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:26.920 first one hundred ninety six minute cut. I think the 392 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:29.039 lowest cut we did was one hundred and two minutes, 393 00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:31.279 and it was just it was a lot of taking 394 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:35.319 stuff out putting stuff back, condensing stuff, re arranging stuff, 395 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:39.079 changing the order of stuff. It's surprising, though, the vast 396 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:42.640 majority of the movie that's in there was pretty much 397 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.799 in there in the first cut. Like the sections, they 398 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:49.759 were all longer, like we have a section on Zardas 399 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:52.119 and your first cut was like four minutes or something, 400 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:53.559 and it was just like, there's no way you can 401 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:55.559