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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime.

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Speaker 3: Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and

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I'm Bill Thomas. We're joined today by prosecutor and author

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Randy Barnett here to talk to us about his book

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sell Any Review, Tales of True Crime and Corruption in Chicago.

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Speaker 3: Randy, thank you for joining us today.

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Speaker 6: Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 7: I know it's an very interesting podcast and I can't

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wait to talk to you about the book.

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Speaker 2: Oh fantastic, It's funny who knew that there was corruption

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in Chicago.

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Speaker 6: I went into the system.

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Speaker 7: Actually i'll tell you more about how I got there,

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But I went into the system fully expecting there to

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be corruption. Had my dad was a businessman in Chicago

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and was very realistic about what was going on. I

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went in with my eyes wide open. If anything, it

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was slightly cleaner than I expected, because the prosecutor's office

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was not corrupt, and I would have expected everything to

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be corrupt. So I would have to say it was

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a little bit pleasantly surprised that my office wasn't corrupt too.

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But maybe I should start off by introducing myself a

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bit and who I am and what I do now. Now,

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I'm a law professor at Georgetown and my specialty for

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the last twenty years or so has been constitutional law.

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I argued the medical marijuana case out of California in

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the US Supreme Court, my one and only an argument.

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But it was a big case and it was very

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instructive to do that. We lost six to three, but

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we beat the spread. We got more justices on our

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side than anybody expected. But before that, I was a

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contracts professor, and then before that I was a criminal

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prosecutor in Chicago. And the reason why that happened is

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it was being criminal lawyer that made me want to

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be a lawyer in the first place. A television show

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came on when I was ten years old called The Defenders,

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Oh Stay, g Marshall and Robert Reid. Not that many

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people remember it because it didn't go into syndication and

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you don't see it in reruns for reasons that remained mysterious.

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Some people claim it's because there were so many guest

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stars on there that they haven't cleared all the IP

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rights to be able to redo it republish it. But

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at any rate, I have some copies. You can buy

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the first season on Amazon in DVD form. It really

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made me want to be a lawyer. Now why would

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that be. Perry Mason was on in the House on

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Sunday Nights. That didn't make me want to be a lawyer,

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because Perry Mason was about solving murders. The Defenders was

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about practicing law. We had two father son criminal defense

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team in New York, filmed on location in New York,

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in gritty, black and white. It was very true to life.

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Speaker 6: Then.

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Speaker 7: I've watched it since then. It remains pretty true to life.

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And it was about the thing, the issues that ethical

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and other issues that arise when you defend people in

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the criminal justice system. And many of them were guilty,

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unlike Perry Mason, who had one guilty person in all

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the seasons he was on TV. Yeah, and realistic. So

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that made me want to be a criminal lawyer. When

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I got to law school, I shaded over to want

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to be a prosecutor. Partly that was because of my nature,

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and that is, as opposed to being a critical guy,

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I'm a constructive guy. I like to build things up,

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not tear things down. A defense attorney's job is to

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demolish and tear down the execution's case. The prosecution's job

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is to build a case on the basis of evidence

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that proves certain things. And that was one thing, so

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I was dispositionally more inclined to be a prosecutor. But

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also the defense attorney's job is to zealously defend the

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interests of their client, and without defense attorneys doing that,

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the adversary system simply does not work. A prosecutor's job

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is to see that justice is done, whether that means

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prosecuting or not prosecuting. Somebody who's accused, and I was

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very much more comfortable with that role. And felony review,

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the unit that is discussed in my book. Felony review

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is all about ensuring that the guilty get charged and

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the innocent go free.

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Speaker 5: And I had never heard the term sell any review

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in terms of a unit. So just run down for

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everybody who may be as unfamiliar as I was, what

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does the sele any review unit actually do? The name

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clearly tells you a little bit about it, but I

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think we're going to need to know a little bit more.

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Speaker 7: Detail, absolutely, and you're to be forgiven for not knowing

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because it's a peculiarly Chicago or Cook County system. It

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was established in the seventies. An arrangement was made between

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the Chicago Police Department and the Cook County State's Attorney's Office.

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Now those are two different government agencies. They don't work

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for each other. The Chicago Police Department works for the

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City of Chicago. The State's Attorney's Office is an elected

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office for county wide office. And they entered into an

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agreement that no, oh chfelony charges can be placed against

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a person by the Chicago Police Department without a prosecutor

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an assistant state's attorney signing off on it. Now, that

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required the creation of a full time unit of state's

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attorneys who don't go to court, but have offices in

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the police stations, have their own squad cars and respond

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to the district police stations where to interview witnesses to crimes,

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interview the police, find out what evidence is there, and

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if possible, interview the people that are being accused of

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the crime, and eventually taking a confession from those people

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if there's something they have to confess. So our job

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is to ensure that the evidence of guilt is there

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and that we anticipate in the police station things that

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might be used to tear the case down later on

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in court. My job is there to think like a

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defense attorney and think, well, if I were a defense

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attorney approaching this case, what would I want to argue

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and is there anything I can do at three am

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in the morning in a Chicago police department, a district

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police station to negate that argument in the future. So,

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for example, in one of the cases I took a

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confession on the issue was what happened to the murder

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weapon the murder the defendant told us he threw it away.

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He right onto an elevated railroad embankment next to the

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housing projects in Chicago. And so I asked the police, saige,

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you go look for it, and the police said, of

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course not, because there was no way that thing would

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still be there by the time we got there. I said,

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I'm sure that's true, but you've got to be able

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to say stand up in court and say you look

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for it. So they said, if we're going to go

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look for it, then you have to go with us.

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I said, okay, I'll go with you. So we drove

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out to where the railroad track embankment was, with the

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accused telling us where to go and to get up

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to this one story this is like an elevated track

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that goes next to the was next to the Robert

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Taylor Holmes isn't there anymore. And to get up onto

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the elevated track, we had to climb to the top

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of a police cruiser and then climb on top of

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the tracks. And when I did, I was wearing these

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jeans and I ripped the crotch open my jeans as

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I climbed up. And I'm wearing white briefs, right, So

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when I come back to the police station and take

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the court reporter statement, I've got to cross my legs

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because otherwise these white briefs are going to show through.

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But we were able to say we went and looked

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for the gun. It wasn't there, of course, but that

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was My job is to anticipate what could be said

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about a case later on by defense attorney.

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Speaker 2: And is that different in Chicago with the Felony Review Team.

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That sounds very different from what we've heard about from

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other people that are prosecuted or investigated cases. Yeah.

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Speaker 7: I'm unaware of any other jurisdiction that has anything like it.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 7: I'm not saying they don't, because it's not my job

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to know what's going on across the country and criminal

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law because I'm not a criminal law guy anymore. But

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I'm not aware of this unit existing anywhere else. And

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our approval this was a genuine way of protecting the innocent.

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It was like the original Innocence Project. Our approval rate

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for charges we were asked for was about sixty percent,

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which means we're rejecting four out of ten requests that

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were being made to us by the Chicago Police. And

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our individual performance as felonary review assistants was monitored by

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the office. We had to turn in our logbooks, which

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recorded everything we did and of which I kept, which

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is how I was able to reconstruct Oh wow, when

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I wrote the book, and we turned them in once

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a week, and they did a statistical analysis of what

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we had done in order that we not be too

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forgiving or too strict, and so it was meaningful review.

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And in the book I tell stories about innocent people,

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people I think were innocent, that we let go because

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of what we learned in the police station.

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Speaker 5: So I guess it does lead to my next question

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despite this felony review process, which is that sounds like

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something a lot more jurisdictions probably should adopt. But I'm

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not sure to suggest wide ranging corrections to the criminal

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justice system.

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Speaker 3: But still I like it.

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Speaker 5: Were there ever cases that you prosecuted that you felt

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should not have made it to the courtroom, or cases

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that you didn't feel great about prosecuting?

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Speaker 7: The answer is no, but possibly yes. So know, when

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I was a prosecutor, one of the things you feared

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when you were a fellon of you review assistant, and

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one of the things you lead just wanted to happen

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is to get a phone call from a state's attorney

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from a felony trial assistant, who said, why the hell

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did you send me this case. We did not ever

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want to because we hadn't got there yet and we

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need to, we need to make it up there to

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that rank, and we did not want that. That nevered.

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When I was a felony trial assistant, which I was

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for two years, I never had a case like that. However,

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when I was a law student as a student intern

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for the State's Attorney's office, that did happen. And I

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tell a more elaborate version of the story in my

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last book, A Life for Liberty, The Making of an

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American Originalist. I tell a very detailed account of the story.

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I give a summary version in this book. And it

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was about a guy who was accused of shooting a

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Chicago police officer, a sergeant, and who had been sitting

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in custody for a year awaiting trial for a tempt murder,

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having been indicted by the grand jury for in tap

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murder the day we took a plea. I shouldn't say that.

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So I was a third year student. The assistants who

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were working in the courtroom gave me the file because

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I was doing work. I was able to do work

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as a student deloye or under their supervision. They gave

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me the file. They said, work this file up, which

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is what a third chair States attorney would normally be doing.

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Order the reports, get it ready to go. But there

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was a weird fact pattern that I couldn't explain. And

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the fact pattern was that we know for a fact

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that two shots were fired by somebody, and one shot

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because because the police sergeant responded to shots fired man

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with a gun, because the shot had been fired, the

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neighbors called in the police and the police show up,

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so one shots fired. Then in the scuffle that happens

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between the defendant and his other guy, the father of

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his girlfriend, who is which is what this was all about,

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the domestic and the police officers trying to separate the

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two guys, another shot rings out. That's two shots, and

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the police sergeant says, which one of you guys shot me?

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And eventually they put these guys in the back of

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a squad car and then they started looking for the weapon,

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which they couldn't find. Eventually, as the squad car got

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moved from one side of the street to the other

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side of the street. They find it on the grass

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outside the window of where the defendant is sitting in

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the backseat of the squad car. Ah, okay, that's fine.

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We don't know how it got there. He was cuffed,

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he had been searched, police missguns and searches all the time.

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Somehow he must have gotten the gun out and thrown

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it out the window. Who knows. But that was one problem.

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But the biggest problem is this. It's a five cylinder

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revolver and there's three unexpended rounds, one expended round, and

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one empty chamber. So where's the How are we getting

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two shots out of that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? The math is off there.

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Speaker 7: For this to happen, we have to believe that after

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he shot the first shot that caught and the police

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gets called for some unknown reason, he opens up his revolver,

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removes a spent shellcasing, throws it away, closes a revolver, and.

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Speaker 6: Then the second shot happens. That made no sense.

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Speaker 7: So I was caught task with working up this file,

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and I took it home and my dad, who was

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very sharp and who would make a better lawyer than

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I ever made, and we opened up all the files

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on the kitchen table and try.

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Speaker 6: To figure out what the heck happened here. Now.

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Speaker 7: The only thing that we could think of, which didn't

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make any sense also, is that somehow the police sergeant

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had drawn his weapon. But we knew that wasn't It

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couldn't be one of his service He had a service

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revolver and a forty five caliber automatic. The wound was

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not consistent with that. It was consistent with the twenty

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two caliber, which is what the defendant's gun or the

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recovered gun was. He couldn't have drawn his own weapon

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in the course of the melee and have it go

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off because it's not consistent with the wound. But what

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if he was carrying a drop gun? Now you ask,

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what's a drop gun? I was cynical enough as a

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law student with a father that I had to know

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what a drop gun was. Later on you'd learn about

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it on TV. And a drop gun is a gun

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that a cop would carry so that if they should

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have a shooting incident and they kill somebody, and they

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shoot somebody who's unarmed. When they get there they find

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out he's unarmed, they'll drop the gun and then will

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be the arm. There's also drop knives. They carry drop

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knives too, so I knew about this. So I thought,

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if you carry a drop gun, it's going to be

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a small caliber small gun. So maybe there's no reason

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why if he's going to pull a weapon, he's going

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to pull his drop gun. That makes no sense. That's

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as far as we could take it. I go back

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to the office the next day. I sit down with

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the trial assistant who I work for, and tell him

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the problem. And his response is this, I ain't going

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to try this piece of shit. That was his response. Okay,

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what do we do? His guy's been in custody for

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a year. We offer him a plea deal, and we

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offer him one year time served. He has to do

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another couple of days and he has to plead guilty

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to a misdemeanor of unlawful use of weapons, which would

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be the discharge that we would drop the attempt murder

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on a police officer charge. And so he takes the plea.

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But the defense attorney, who's a good defense attorney, he said,

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one of these kind of sketchy ones, but he actually

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can try cases, unlike the other sketchy ones who can't

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try cases. He said, look, my guy didn't do it.

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I don't feel comfortable about him taking a plea, but

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it's my duty to give him the offer, and it's

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up to him. He comes back, he takes the offer,

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he pleads guilty. Later that afternoon, after court is closed,

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a phone rings in the court room. My partner picks up.

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My partner wasn't literally my partner, he was my supervisor.

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He picks up the call, and the guy on the

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other end says, is this the courtroom where the cop

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got shot? And my partner said yes, because earlier that

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day there had been sentencing on a jury trial where

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a cop had been murdered. And my partner thought, that's

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what this guy's calling about. And so the next thing,

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the guy on the phone says, the cop shot himself.

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And my partner said, what that's crazy. Cop was murdered.

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What are you talking about? But he was talking about

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this guy and he goes, what are you talking about?

315
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He goes, yeah, he was wearing a pen gun. And

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everyone in the station and the district knew about it.

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What the heck's a pen gun? I knew what a

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00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,559
pen gun was because they used to get advertised in

319
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the back advertisements in men's magazines that my dad used

320
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to subscribe for when I was a kid. So it

321
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looks like a pen, but it carries one twenty two

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caliber round and you can have it in emergencies. If

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you get disarmed, you'll still have this one weapon remaining

324
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to you. And the course of the struggle, the pen

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gun goes off. Wow wow, wow is right.

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Speaker 2: But this gun struck the officer who was getting carrying

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in his pocket.

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Speaker 6: He was pucket.

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Speaker 7: The guy was rotund. So the wound was through and through.

330
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It went up to the top and then came out

331
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the bottom. Now we had the officer at the end

332
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of the plea deal had said can I get my

333
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shirt back? His shirt had been in evidence the whole time,

334
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and so we said, wow, what a cheap state this

335
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guy's been in. He's been this shirt's been in a

336
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bag for a year, and he wants his shirt back.

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Speaker 6: But we gave it back to him.

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Speaker 7: And the other thing that we hadn't really focused on

339
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is the fact that the crime lab, the request of

340
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the crime lad to analyze the shirt had been canceled

341
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by somebody.

342
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Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting. Now it's starting to make sense why

343
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:31,639
the officer would want his shirt back.

344
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Speaker 7: Yeah, so now we decide, so what are we going

345
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to do about it? And in actually in my last book,

346
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I tell more stories about I tell a greater detail

347
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,679
what happened after that. I don't know if we should

348
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,799
go through the whole story here. We're taking a long

349
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,320
time on this, but it's okay, okay, a little bit

350
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,200
more so we're give it a little bit. I don't

351
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:50,960
know why they let this third year law student in

352
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the room. We go into the supervisor's office, is the

353
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chief of the criminal division, my partner who's the first

354
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chair in the courtroom, and me, and then there was

355
00:16:01,399 --> 00:16:03,159
another guy in the room who I knew who I'll

356
00:16:03,159 --> 00:16:05,039
tell you who he was in a minute. We tell

357
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,600
him what happened, and the chief of the criminal division says,

358
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who else knows about this? And how do we know

359
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,320
this is true? How do we know? So maybe we

360
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,759
should just let it go. I'm just sitting there listening

361
00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:18,159
to everything. And this guy who was sitting in the back,

362
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:19,600
and it was a very dark room and he was

363
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sitting in the shadows. It's like a TV show. And

364
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his name was Tommy Fitzgerald, and he was the head

365
00:16:23,879 --> 00:16:25,720
of the first municipal was a supervisor head of the

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first municipal District. He went on to be a justice

367
00:16:27,919 --> 00:16:30,279
on the Illinois Supreme Court before his death. That's how

368
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,879
far up he went. And he said, one of these days,

369
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,759
the guy who called us, called that we talked to,

370
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,600
is going to be sitting on a bar stool next

371
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,919
to Mike Royko. And now Mike Royko was then the

372
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,759
legendary columnist for the Chicago Sun Times. Oh yeah, And

373
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,559
he said, one of these days he's going to be

374
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sitting at the bar stool next to Mike Royko, and

375
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,080
he's going to say, Mike, have I got a story

376
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,080
for you? And then will be left holding the bag.

377
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:54,440
He didn't say, he didn't have to say that. I

378
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,759
didn't finish the thought. And at the moment he said that,

379
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,240
the entire direction of the room turned around, and it

380
00:17:00,279 --> 00:17:01,919
was clear we had to do something. And so what

381
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:03,559
we had to do was rip the guy back over

382
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,960
from the jail so we could vacate his plea. Tell

383
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,079
Michael Green, the defense lawyer, that we were going to

384
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,279
write vacate his plea, and then we had to get

385
00:17:10,279 --> 00:17:13,400
the shirt back. So my partner says to me, you

386
00:17:13,519 --> 00:17:15,240
got to call the guy. You got to call the

387
00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:17,640
cop and get the shirt back. Okay, So I go

388
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,240
call the cop, answers the phone, I said, the defendants

389
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:21,920
moving to vacatu his plea. We were going to have

390
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,559
to try this case, and we need the shirt back.

391
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:24,960
We had no idea if he was going to bring

392
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,920
it back. He did bring it back, held it, he

393
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,079
laundered it. He laundered it. But the laundry, the wash

394
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,000
did not remove all of the all of the gunpowder

395
00:17:34,039 --> 00:17:36,039
residue that side of the pocket. The reason we didn't

396
00:17:36,039 --> 00:17:38,519
see it is the bullet. The bullet came out of

397
00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:40,839
the seam at the bottom of the pocket, and then

398
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,480
there was a hole below the sea, so you could

399
00:17:43,519 --> 00:17:45,720
then see how the threads of the seam were also

400
00:17:45,759 --> 00:17:48,440
broken because by the bullet. So he comes in and

401
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:49,759
so I go. We show up the next day to

402
00:17:49,799 --> 00:17:52,359
vacate the plea. And who's sitting in the front row

403
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,119
but the least Strobel, who was then the who's gone

404
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,119
on to be an author, a Christian author, very prominent,

405
00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:00,640
but he was then the police report the Chicago the

406
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,880
crime reporter of the Chicago Tribune. He's sitting in the

407
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,759
front row. So my partner says to me go over

408
00:18:05,799 --> 00:18:10,759
and find out what that guy wants here. Go over

409
00:18:10,839 --> 00:18:13,079
and I sit down next to him on the bench

410
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,839
in the front of the courtroom and I say, what's

411
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,880
so interesting, what's so interesting on the call today that

412
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,960
you would be here? And he said James Dixon, which

413
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,240
is the name of the guy. I go, oh, okay,

414
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,400
and I got up and I told him so what

415
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,000
they had said about Mike Royco had already happened. After

416
00:18:30,039 --> 00:18:32,079
the guy and who I got to start a phone call,

417
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,440
it's going to be. What we found out is this guy,

418
00:18:34,519 --> 00:18:37,640
this police sergeant, was a hard ass and he made

419
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,279
a lot of enemies amongst the patrol men, and they

420
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,759
did what we called drop the dime. They dropped the

421
00:18:42,799 --> 00:18:45,440
dime on him. Back in the days when payphones took dimes,

422
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,160
they had this expression drop a dime. They dropped the

423
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,799
dime on the guy. And that's how we find out

424
00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:52,200
about it. So that's the one case that I had

425
00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,880
all the way up to a trial court and we

426
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:56,400
thought that where we thought the guy did it, but

427
00:18:56,799 --> 00:18:59,079
I couldn't figure it out. Something was wrong with that case.

428
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,240
And we found out on what was wrong with that case.

429
00:19:01,279 --> 00:19:03,440
Now that's better than TV or at least it's as

430
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,279
good as TV. Yeah, you couldn't make that one out.

431
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,559
The thing the theme of my book is being in

432
00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:10,960
the criminal just system is better than what they can

433
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:11,839
show you on TV.

434
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,759
Speaker 2: And that's what a number of your reviews say too,

435
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,640
is that this reads as great as any fiction that

436
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,039
we'd see in a book or a television show or

437
00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:21,519
a movie.

438
00:19:21,839 --> 00:19:24,799
Speaker 7: Well, Alan Dershowitz wrote the wrote a short preface to it,

439
00:19:24,799 --> 00:19:26,519
and that's what he said, this is like a reality

440
00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:27,119
TV show.

441
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:27,799
Speaker 3: I liked that.

442
00:19:28,079 --> 00:19:30,240
Speaker 5: One of the things that you closed out the book

443
00:19:30,279 --> 00:19:35,839
with is these wonderfully, wonderfully critical but like politely critical

444
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,359
emails about I would like to write to the show

445
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,000
runners of Hill Street Blues to tell you, guys that

446
00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:41,920
you're doing a great job, but you could be doing.

447
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,119
Speaker 3: A better shop and here's how.

448
00:19:43,839 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 5: And I loved that because it was like, you know what,

449
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,920
I think that as you have every right to be

450
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,759
able to say, you guys aren't doing prosecutors justice. As

451
00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:53,960
a prosecutor, I would like to.

452
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,279
Speaker 3: Tell you how. I thought that was fantastic.

453
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 7: For I reproduced the whole letter for the reader as Yes,

454
00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:02,200
I loved including I actually have a photoshop I hosh

455
00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:04,200
at the image of the letter itself. So everybody knows

456
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,359
who actually have a letter of the replies themselves, they

457
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:07,559
know the replies are authentic.

458
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was terrific, and obviously they were. You could

459
00:20:10,599 --> 00:20:12,279
tell they were maybe a little bit amused by the

460
00:20:12,279 --> 00:20:15,519
whole especially that's a perfect word. I think that they

461
00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:18,519
were probably a little surprised. But I love the fact

462
00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:21,000
that you actually took the initiative to write.

463
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,119
Speaker 7: It eight page, single space history of the depiction of

464
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,319
lawyers on television, which they said in tongue and somewhat

465
00:20:27,319 --> 00:20:30,720
tommic cheap was impressive. H It was impressive that I

466
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,000
could do that anyway, Yeah, it was great. I thought

467
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,480
that I closed out the book with that.

468
00:20:36,519 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

469
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:46,720
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

470
00:20:46,799 --> 00:20:47,720
mindover Murder.

471
00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 5: So for our listeners who haven't had a change to

472
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,119
read the book yet, what are some of the TV

473
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,599
shows and movies that you think have done good job

474
00:20:55,759 --> 00:20:58,559
on portraying prosecutors and what are the some that didn't

475
00:20:58,559 --> 00:20:59,119
meet the mark.

476
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,039
Speaker 7: You gave me a heads up that you were going

477
00:21:01,079 --> 00:21:02,880
to ask me this question, so mean what I thought

478
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,559
the answer was. But then I went out and did

479
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,359
investigation of what the answer is, and that is and

480
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,920
that is the show that broke the mold on the

481
00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:13,400
depiction of the criminal justice system. That is The Wire.

482
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,400
But here's one generality. I will say, lawyers are more active.

483
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,640
The criminal justice system are accurately depicted on cop shows

484
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,039
and on lawyer shows going to depict lawyers very well, but

485
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,720
cop shows tend to have a better depiction. And The

486
00:21:28,759 --> 00:21:30,720
Wire was dead on. And so as a result of

487
00:21:30,759 --> 00:21:33,000
you asked me this question, I've now watched. I've rewatched

488
00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:35,759
the first four episodes of season one of The Wire.

489
00:21:35,839 --> 00:21:38,119
Last not i've watched. I watched three episodes in a

490
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,480
row because it was so darn good. I felt like

491
00:21:40,519 --> 00:21:42,960
I was back in Cook County, although I'm in Baltimore.

492
00:21:43,079 --> 00:21:47,279
And the character is the character of Ronda Pearlman and

493
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,880
she and it was played by Adro what's her name?

494
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,039
Speaker 6: I got to get I looked this.

495
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,079
Speaker 3: I don't know, carey, and I've never watched The Wire.

496
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,039
Speaker 6: Unfortunately, you got to watch The Wire.

497
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 7: You gotta watch The Wire because not only getting her

498
00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:03,680
her name or the actress's name, it's brilliant But here's

499
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,599
the thing. What Groc was able to tell me was

500
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,119
all the episodes in which she has major scenes. So

501
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,880
I sampled five or six scenes of hers throughout the

502
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,160
five episodes. But I will say, not only her, but

503
00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:18,400
everybody else in the criminal justice system is fairly portrayed

504
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:23,519
or accurately portrayed, including the judges, the other prosecutors, and

505
00:22:23,799 --> 00:22:27,480
the defense attorneys, including the defensive attorney Levy, who was

506
00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:30,759
the principal lawyer for the gang that were under questionnaire.

507
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,000
He was extremely accurate depiction of what a defense attorney

508
00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:37,119
is like, and a lot it reminded me a lot

509
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,480
of Eddie Jensen, who was a character in my book,

510
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,400
a real life defense attorney who fixed a case out

511
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,839
from under me and who I prevented from doing it

512
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,319
a second time. Fool me one, Shame on you, fool

513
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,400
me twice, shame on me. I didn't let him fool

514
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,599
me the second time. I got around him the second time,

515
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,680
but I feature him and call him out by name

516
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,200
as one of these shyster lawyers, but good lawyers. And

517
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,039
these these were skillful lawyers, not all of them more,

518
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,720
but he was. And so this Leavy character is fantastic

519
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,759
so the whole show is fantastic. The Wire is as

520
00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:11,519
close to real life as anything I've ever seen on television. Okay,

521
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,240
let me talk about Law and Order for a second,

522
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,720
because that's what everybody wants to ask me about. I

523
00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:19,480
can't stand it, and so therefore I haven't watched very

524
00:23:19,559 --> 00:23:21,599
much of it. But i'll tell you the reason why

525
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,400
it isn't because I think it's legally inaccurate. I don't

526
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,799
care much about that. And I'll tell you one reason

527
00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:29,960
why it's kind of probably accurate in a second. It's

528
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,559
because people in the criminal justice system just don't talk

529
00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:34,599
to each other the way they do on that show,

530
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,000
the giving speeches and pontificating this kind of stuff. They

531
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,720
don't talk to each other like that. They talk from

532
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,559
each other like they do on The Wire. It's all

533
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,920
very shorthand, it's all very annoying. NYPD Blue was a

534
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,519
lot more accurate a depiction of how cops talk to

535
00:23:47,559 --> 00:23:50,640
each other and even how prosecutors work. That's another good show.

536
00:23:50,839 --> 00:23:53,480
Not as good as The Wire, but pretty good. Now,

537
00:23:54,039 --> 00:23:55,799
I'll give you an idea of why I think the

538
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,000
Law and Order might be accurate. I had the privilege

539
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,039
of portraying a prosecutor in a feature film two.

540
00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:03,559
Speaker 6: Thousand and nine.

541
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,319
Speaker 7: I did notice that called it was a science fiction

542
00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:10,039
Bizarrely enough, it was a science fiction movie called Inalienable,

543
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,640
and it was and it ultimately turned on the legal

544
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,759
status of an alien child that was born to a

545
00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:19,559
human after having been impregnated by this alien creature.

546
00:24:19,799 --> 00:24:22,279
Speaker 2: And the third of the movie happens. Of course, I know,

547
00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:22,799
it's one of.

548
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 7: Those things you have to they teach that in law school, right,

549
00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:27,839
But the last third of the movie was a courtroom

550
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,720
drama about whether, because the Feds were holding on to him,

551
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,759
whether he should be freed from the because the father

552
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,400
is trying to get his alien son freed from custody.

553
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,319
So I played the assistant to the prosecutor. The prosecutor was,

554
00:24:39,319 --> 00:24:41,880
by the ways, written by Walter Koenegg, who played Checkof

555
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,000
on the original Star Trek and All, and because Walter

556
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,519
was the moving force behind the movie, all of these

557
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,640
really pretty well known sci fi TV actors were in

558
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,640
the movie, including Marina Sertis, who played the prosecutor, and

559
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,079
she played Deanna Troy counselor Deanna Troy on Star Trek

560
00:24:58,079 --> 00:25:00,559
Next Generation. So for four days I got to sit

561
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,960
on a courtroom set with Marina Sertis, and I had

562
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,839
tried earlier on It's a very long story that actually

563
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,599
is in my last book, A Life for Liberty, I

564
00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:10,839
have a chapter about being in this movie. But I

565
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,119
had tried to correct the legal errors in the script.

566
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:14,680
They had asked me to look at the script, and

567
00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:16,160
I tried to correct them, and then a lot of

568
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,599
them got uncorrected. But Marina knew enough about the law

569
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,279
to come to me, because once they found out that

570
00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:24,680
I was a former prosecutor, I became like the technical

571
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,759
adviser on the set. So she came to me and

572
00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:28,839
she said, would my character ever say this? And the

573
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,519
answer I said no, she would never say that. And

574
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:32,720
I tried to get that change, but it got changed back,

575
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,839
and then she had the She had the poll on

576
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,960
the set to get a change. I didn't but cheat it.

577
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,440
And where did she learn the law? She learned the

578
00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:42,880
law because she was an avid Law and Order fan.

579
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 2: Oh, and she learned it from the show.

580
00:25:46,279 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 7: So therefore, I'm willing to grant that Law and Order

581
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,359
has a lot of accurate law, but what it doesn't

582
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,279
have is accurate the accurate culture of what it's like

583
00:25:54,319 --> 00:25:56,160
to be in the criminal justice system, which I tried

584
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,000
to create in the book Felony Review.

585
00:25:58,079 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 2: And Before I'm Sorry, Before We've get Deirdre Lovejoy played

586
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,400
the character of Ronda Pearlman on the wire.

587
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,039
Speaker 7: I had Deirdre. I couldn't figure. I couldn't remember the

588
00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:09,759
rest of the name, but she's brilliant. But they were

589
00:26:09,799 --> 00:26:12,640
all brilliant, and they were so natural, they were like

590
00:26:12,799 --> 00:26:13,400
real people.

591
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,519
Speaker 5: It sounds like Law and Order isn't really about the

592
00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:21,119
culture of the courtroom, just like the West Wing is

593
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,000
not about the culture of working in.

594
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:23,559
Speaker 3: The White House.

595
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 7: It's a perfect analogy, and they both have a lot

596
00:26:27,519 --> 00:26:28,640
of walk and talk scenes.

597
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 6: The West Wing invented the walk and talk segne.

598
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, they made good use of that set,

599
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,079
going from point A to point B. Generally, I know

600
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,640
this is a hard question to answer, Randy, but the

601
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,400
police officers for the Chicago PD whose cases would go

602
00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:51,079
under felony review generally, did they look at the Felony

603
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,480
Review team with skepticism because aren't they checking their work

604
00:26:55,519 --> 00:26:56,680
almost in real time?

605
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,079
Speaker 7: It was complicated a lot I had to do with

606
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,839
the attitude of the felon interview assistant. I like cops,

607
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,400
and I grew up in a working class town. So

608
00:27:05,599 --> 00:27:08,599
therefore I didn't grow up in an elite suburb somewhere

609
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:09,440
where I was immune.

610
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:10,279
Speaker 6: I grew up in a working.

611
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 7: Class town, blue collar caliub At City, Illinois, which is

612
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,000
on the border of Indiana. It's a bedroom community for

613
00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:19,759
the mills and refineries in each Chicago and Hammond and Gary,

614
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,920
and so culturally, I was very familiar with the people

615
00:27:24,039 --> 00:27:26,920
that are also for my fellow prosecutors, to whom I

616
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,079
dedicate the book, along with two trial judges, I dedicate

617
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:30,759
the book to them.

618
00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:32,759
Speaker 6: So a lot I had to do with the attitude

619
00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:33,440
of the assistant.

620
00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:34,839
Speaker 7: So if you come in as a know it all,

621
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,640
big shot hot shot, I'm I'm the guy, I think

622
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,039
they're going to react differently than if you come in

623
00:27:40,079 --> 00:27:42,119
and you're respectful and you're there to do your job

624
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,920
and you're there to help them do their job. So

625
00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:46,039
in terms of what their attitudes were, I'll tell you

626
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,960
one story in a second that's in the book. But

627
00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:51,599
generally speaking, they thought of us as a resource. Sometimes

628
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,079
they would bring us in to do an interrogation because

629
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,960
all their interrogators had already done that had taken their

630
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,880
best shot, and they just wanted to bring in a

631
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,119
fresh face to entear gate a suspect yet again. And

632
00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:04,359
sometimes they wanted us to weed out the case so

633
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,680
they didn't have to they didn't have to take the hit.

634
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,680
So they knew the case was not very good, but

635
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,200
they didn't want to be the guy to say to

636
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,160
the victim the case was not the purported victim that

637
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,880
the case was not very good. There was one case

638
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,160
I worked on the Deep South Side in the middle

639
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,000
of the night. It was an alleged rape, and I

640
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,279
ultimately decided the evidence wasn't there. Actually, I decided I

641
00:28:25,319 --> 00:28:28,920
subjectively believed the defendant, which is very unusual because normally

642
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,799
I tried very hard not to go on the basis

643
00:28:30,839 --> 00:28:34,079
of what I subjectively thought, because I can be fooled

644
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,759
as much as the next guy. Innocent people lie badly.

645
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,279
Guilty people can lie very skillfully, so you can't really

646
00:28:40,319 --> 00:28:43,039
go by that. Nevertheless, between the lack of evidence and

647
00:28:43,079 --> 00:28:45,960
the fact that I subjectively believed the guy, I didn't

648
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,039
approve charges and I have to fill out some paperwork.

649
00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:51,480
And now the guys that did the arresting officers who

650
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,559
were Tactical Policemen, which is a plain, closed unit that

651
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,680
does arrest around the city, but they're not detectives. On

652
00:28:57,759 --> 00:29:01,720
Hill Street Blues, the Andy Sippowitz character, I'm sorry, the

653
00:29:01,759 --> 00:29:05,119
Andy Szippo, which is NYPD Blue, But the same actor,

654
00:29:05,319 --> 00:29:08,119
Dennis Franz played a character on Hill Street Blues that

655
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,839
was very much like these tack cops. And they were

656
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,400
very hard driven, tough guys. Right, they disagreed, they thought

657
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,880
the case should go forward. The homicide sex investigators who

658
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,960
were there, they agreed with me, and so when I

659
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,119
disapproved it, they thought I made the right call. That's

660
00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:23,920
what they call they would have made. So I'm doing

661
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,960
my paperwork at two am, and I didn't pay attention

662
00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:29,480
to the fact that the homicide detectives who came from

663
00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:32,680
area headquarters to this district, they were hanging around. I

664
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,000
didn't notice this. I was just doing my paperwork. I

665
00:29:35,079 --> 00:29:37,319
get up to go to my squad car. They get

666
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,720
up to accompany me to the squad car, and at

667
00:29:39,759 --> 00:29:42,319
that point I realized they were waiting for me. They

668
00:29:42,319 --> 00:29:44,480
were waiting for me to leave so they could accompany

669
00:29:44,599 --> 00:29:46,680
the car. Now, why were they doing that? There's one up,

670
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,200
two possibilities. One is they were afraid the Tack cops

671
00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:52,240
were going to be abusive to me in some way,

672
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,680
they were protecting me. But the other possibility is that

673
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,880
they didn't want the Tack cops to talk me out

674
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,039
of it. It talked me out of the decision, so

675
00:29:59,079 --> 00:30:00,720
they just waited till I I was leaving and then

676
00:30:00,759 --> 00:30:02,720
they walked me to my car. So that's a good

677
00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:05,759
example of the cops thought I was doing their job.

678
00:30:05,759 --> 00:30:08,359
I was helping them do their job. The investigators and

679
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,359
the cops that thought I was impeding them from doing

680
00:30:10,359 --> 00:30:11,960
their job, and those were the tack officers.

681
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: A mixed review almost from those two different teams.

682
00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, Chicago is a notoriously tough town for folks in

683
00:30:20,039 --> 00:30:22,920
the business of law and order and justice. Would you

684
00:30:23,039 --> 00:30:26,759
say that Chicago's reputation is deserved or has it been

685
00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:29,559
inflated over the years, either by the media or by

686
00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:33,279
pop culture portrayals like the movie Chicago or all of

687
00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:35,480
the series in the Chicago TV franchise.

688
00:30:35,799 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, there is a Chicago.

689
00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: Wait.

690
00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 7: Sean Conry has the line about Chicago. Way you put

691
00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:41,160
one of the guys in the hospital, we put you

692
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,680
in the morgue and we come with it, not whatever,

693
00:30:43,799 --> 00:30:44,480
None would come.

694
00:30:44,359 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 6: With a gun. I don't know about that.

695
00:30:46,839 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 7: We have a lot of sayings in the criminal justice

696
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,720
system that wasn't any of them. But it's a tough town,

697
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,759
and I don't think it's unfairly portrayed. First of all,

698
00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:58,200
it's extremely It was extremely corrupt. And the book is

699
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,680
called Tales of True Crime and Up in Chicago, and

700
00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:04,039
I tell the story of the corruption that I confronted

701
00:31:04,079 --> 00:31:06,240
when I was there, and it was pretty rampant. And

702
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,799
I'm able to name names of all the corrupt judges

703
00:31:08,839 --> 00:31:11,240
that I'm talking about and the corupt lawyers I'm talking about.

704
00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 6: And there's a reason why I'm able to name them.

705
00:31:13,119 --> 00:31:16,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to get to that. Why can you

706
00:31:16,119 --> 00:31:16,799
name them?

707
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 7: Because they were all prosecuted eventually, because there, unbeknownst to

708
00:31:21,319 --> 00:31:23,480
me when I was there, there was an undercover and

709
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,799
sting operation to investigate the Circuit corda Cook County, which

710
00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:29,160
got revealed only two years after I left the office,

711
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,480
and I was a law professor. And all of the

712
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,400
people that I name were people that were prosecuted successfully

713
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,599
either pled guilty or found guilty after trial.

714
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 6: And that's why I'm able to name them now.

715
00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:40,279
Speaker 7: The other thing I'm not going to give away, which

716
00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:41,960
is a bit of a surprise ending, is how that

717
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:46,119
undercover investigation affected me personally. Because it did, and you

718
00:31:46,119 --> 00:31:47,759
don't find out till the end of the book about

719
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,200
why it affected me personally. But this was an amazing

720
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,920
time to be in the system, because I'll tell you when,

721
00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:57,160
during the time I was there, the people who were

722
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,000
doing all the bad stuff, they felt they were complet

723
00:32:00,039 --> 00:32:02,720
lely immune from anything ever happening to them. It always

724
00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:04,640
had been this way, it was always going to be

725
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,480
this way. I myself didn't do anything. I couldn't do

726
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:10,039
anything to stop the system or change the system. All

727
00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:12,640
I could do is try to neutralize their efforts. Whenever

728
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,240
I detected it was happening with this operation, all these

729
00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:18,880
people went to jail. Everybody didn't go to jail, but

730
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,079
lots and lots of people went to jail, and I

731
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,400
do think that the system was And then there was

732
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,519
actually another sting operation happening simultaneously with the first one,

733
00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:32,599
which caught up another judge that I talk about in

734
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,400
the case I talk about in the book, a judge

735
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,079
who I had a very high opinion of turned out

736
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,759
at the end of the day to be a corrupt

737
00:32:38,839 --> 00:32:40,440
But I didn't know that. Most of the time we

738
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,160
did know who the corrupt one was. I had no

739
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,279
idea this guy was corrupt because cor up on a

740
00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:46,720
whole different level than the other guys were. That was

741
00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:50,200
a separate undercover operation that revealed his corruption. But I

742
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,880
do think as a result of that, the system was cleaner.

743
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,160
And many of my fellow prosecutors are our circuit court

744
00:32:56,279 --> 00:32:59,400
judges or nearing retirement as circuit court judges. I don't

745
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,240
practice there anymore, and I don't live there anymore, so

746
00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:04,799
I can't say I should probably call my buddies there

747
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:06,640
and before I do any more podcasts and ask them

748
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,359
their opinion about this. But I think the system has

749
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,039
to be a lot cleaner than it used to be,

750
00:33:11,119 --> 00:33:12,519
at least in this regard.

751
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: How does that actually work? How do you buy a

752
00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:19,559
judge Back in the day, in the battle days of

753
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,319
Chicago justice.

754
00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:24,799
Speaker 7: They're basically two models of going what's going on here?

755
00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:27,720
Most of the corrupt judging was happening at the lowest

756
00:33:27,799 --> 00:33:31,319
levels in volume, so it was little bits of money

757
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,440
in a lot in a high volume courtroom, these are

758
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,000
misdemeanors and not felonies. And basically the corruption is a

759
00:33:38,119 --> 00:33:40,680
fueled by the bond slip system, where when you go

760
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,559
out on bond, you post one hundred dollars for one

761
00:33:42,559 --> 00:33:44,599
thousand dollars bond or whatever, so you have a one hundred

762
00:33:44,599 --> 00:33:46,680
dollars bond slip or a thousand dollars bond slip. And

763
00:33:46,759 --> 00:33:49,319
these corrupt lawyers who are in cahoots with the judges,

764
00:33:49,359 --> 00:33:52,640
would prowl the courtroom and say and offer them legal

765
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,640
services in return for their bond slip. Because that bond slip,

766
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,160
after the case is adjudicated and the person shows up

767
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,519
for court, that bond can be signed over to anybody.

768
00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:04,400
And so they say, look, we'll represent you. They said,

769
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,880
let me see your bond slip. They show the bond slip,

770
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,719
they see how much money is there. I'll represent you

771
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,440
for the bond slip. So the guy says, yeah, but

772
00:34:12,559 --> 00:34:15,679
this guy, this lawyer, has a standing relationship to split

773
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,400
the bond slip, proceeds with the judge and so they

774
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,039
get the judge to assign that guy to the lawyer,

775
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,719
or the lawyer comes into court with that guy and

776
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,760
after the fact there's a settlement up. There's they settle

777
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,960
up all the cases in which they owe the money.

778
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,719
That's the wholesale thing. That's one paradigm, one model. With

779
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,239
respect to this judge that I really admired, I have

780
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,079
to say I tried too. Not only did I was,

781
00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:39,599
I appear in front of him, in front of him

782
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,400
Misdebeanter Court. I tried two jury trials in front of

783
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,679
him as when he was a Fellony trial court judge

784
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:47,000
and a very good one. But it turns out, prior

785
00:34:47,079 --> 00:34:49,039
to being on the bench, he was a lawyer for

786
00:34:49,079 --> 00:34:51,719
the mob. Now we see it, the only cases he

787
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,920
fixed were these mob cases, for which he got paid

788
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,599
good of a very healthy sum. I'm giving away a

789
00:34:57,599 --> 00:34:59,320
bit of the surprise ending here, but I'm not giving

790
00:34:59,360 --> 00:34:59,960
away the whole thing.

791
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,079
Speaker 2: You still have to read the book Felony Review, and

792
00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:05,639
I love the surprise inding.

793
00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:07,559
Speaker 3: Actually, like when I got to it, my jock and

794
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:08,199
hit the floor.

795
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 6: I was were you relieved other peaks?

796
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,159
Speaker 3: It was, yes, I was so relieved.

797
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 7: Overwhelming responsive people to the surprise ending is relief.

798
00:35:15,519 --> 00:35:16,199
Speaker 3: It was definitely.

799
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 5: I was like, no, Randy, definitely wasn't that bad A

800
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:19,679
touch of characters?

801
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 3: This was I was sitting in the green head. There's

802
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:22,800
no way.

803
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:23,519
Speaker 6: There's no way.

804
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 5: I am curious as somebody who works in I can't

805
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,119
say I work in academia.

806
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 3: I work in a public high school.

807
00:35:31,159 --> 00:35:34,639
Speaker 5: But as somebody who teaches talking to another person who teaches,

808
00:35:34,679 --> 00:35:36,920
which do you enjoy more? Do you enjoy the teaching

809
00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:38,800
more or do you miss the days when you were

810
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:39,599
in the courtroom.

811
00:35:40,159 --> 00:35:42,199
Speaker 7: I used to miss it when I taught evidence law.

812
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,239
When I first started teaching, I taught evidence and I

813
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,360
would always dream about being in the courtroom. And when

814
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,960
I was writing felony review, I once again started dreaming

815
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,039
I was back in the courtroom.

816
00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:54,079
Speaker 6: Oh interesting, I have my dream job.

817
00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 7: Now I have the job that I love, which is

818
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,480
being a law professor, and I get to do and

819
00:35:58,519 --> 00:36:01,119
constitutional law is the subject I'm the most interested in,

820
00:36:01,199 --> 00:36:03,920
and I have been for two or three decades and

821
00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:05,639
do most of them. I do all my writing and

822
00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:08,079
publishing in that area. And I have my dream job,

823
00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:10,639
and I couldn't. Also, it's a young it's a young

824
00:36:10,679 --> 00:36:13,440
person's game. I couldn't put up with the bullshit that

825
00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:15,320
I had to put up with. Then you just do

826
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,840
it because it's I used to think I used to

827
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,199
say that being in the circuit corpor County was a

828
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,440
cross between being in an urban public school system and

829
00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:25,000
the post office.

830
00:36:25,159 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: It's a good analogy.

831
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 6: It was a cross between those two things.

832
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,559
Speaker 7: It was like when I first got there and when

833
00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:34,880
I first was in the misdemeanor branch courts, and I thought,

834
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:35,920
why this stills familiar?

835
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 6: What does it feel like? And the reason I.

836
00:36:37,639 --> 00:36:40,079
Speaker 7: Couldn't get it is because it was two things meshed together,

837
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,480
post office or the DMV and the public school system.

838
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: And you use the word volume regarding misdemeanor court just

839
00:36:49,679 --> 00:36:52,320
you picture them just cranking through case after.

840
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,559
Speaker 7: Had eighty cases a day on our call Wow screen,

841
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,639
and it was very Now, this is a I don't

842
00:36:57,639 --> 00:36:59,960
think most of the audience will have watched Hill Street Blues,

843
00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:02,920
it's that old. But if you ever did the courtroom scenes,

844
00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:06,440
there are quite reminiscent of the misdemeanor branch court scenes.

845
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,320
Because you ever, you've got eighty cases, sixty or eighty cases,

846
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,519
you have sixty or eighty defendants, many of them are

847
00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:13,920
on bonds, some of them are not. You've got their families,

848
00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:16,440
you've got the victims, and you've got the cops and

849
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,519
then you've got the lawyers all in one courtroom. That's

850
00:37:18,559 --> 00:37:20,880
a lot of people, and so it's very much like

851
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,639
a zoo. And then they throw you in. Now this

852
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,840
I do talk about in Fellony Review, how they throw

853
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,519
you in. They threw me into the system, not knowing

854
00:37:28,519 --> 00:37:31,159
what the heck was going on at all, and having

855
00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:32,880
to stand up in front of all these people and

856
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,719
do the job of a prosecutor and I don't even

857
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,360
know what I'm supposed to be doing, and what I

858
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,000
decided to do, and it was extremely risky. I decided

859
00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:42,440
to follow the lead of the judge in that case

860
00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:45,000
in that courtroom, and the judge did not have a

861
00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:48,159
reputation for being crooked. But nevertheless, you never know, and

862
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,840
I should not have ever given up my independent judgment

863
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,840
to the judge. My job is to be independent, and

864
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,119
I always was after this. But in the beginning, when

865
00:37:55,159 --> 00:37:57,079
I didn't know what the heck was going on, I

866
00:37:57,119 --> 00:37:59,320
followed his lead and over a course of four months,

867
00:37:59,679 --> 00:38:02,400
Judge Crowley, John Crowley, one of the two crial judges

868
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,480
I dedicate the book to, he taught me what bullshit was.

869
00:38:05,519 --> 00:38:08,719
That's because he and basically that was his word for it.

870
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,360
That's bullshit. Now, I never know what you have to

871
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,880
know what bullshit he means? Does he mean it's like

872
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,599
a bad complaint? Does he mean it's like a trivial charge?

873
00:38:16,599 --> 00:38:18,800
Does he What does he mean? But I learned from

874
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,079
him and after that, after a while, I could figure

875
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:23,760
it out myself. And then I knew he's the one

876
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,039
that taught me how to be that kind of prosecutor.

877
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,039
Speaker 2: Were there ever opportunities with the judge where he was

878
00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:35,199
able to speak to you privately and explain more of

879
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,679
the backdrop of what was going on in the courtroom.

880
00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 6: All the time.

881
00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 7: Now, this didn't happen with every judge, but that happened

882
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,599
with two judges in particular, John Crowley and Eugene Pnscham,

883
00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:46,480
the other judge to whom I dedicate the book to.

884
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,159
And John Crowley, I would sit back in his very

885
00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:53,159
spartan office you're talking about something like on TV. Had

886
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,320
broken chairs and metal desks, and we sit back there

887
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,440
and he would just pontificate. He would just talk to

888
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,559
me the job and about the cases. And the one

889
00:39:02,559 --> 00:39:03,960
thing that one of the things he said to me,

890
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,920
which is in the book, that is the most memorable

891
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,000
line to me, which it has to do with the

892
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,880
sort of corruption in Chicago, and that he says, Randy,

893
00:39:11,079 --> 00:39:13,800
I'm constantly getting bulk. It was a I should set

894
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,079
the stage here. He was an old, an elderly, cranky

895
00:39:17,159 --> 00:39:21,079
Irish judge with a shock of white hair, and he

896
00:39:21,159 --> 00:39:24,360
was known to throw files at prosecutors if he didn't

897
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:25,039
like the case.

898
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 6: And that happened.

899
00:39:26,679 --> 00:39:29,039
Speaker 7: And so he said, Randy, I get calls all the

900
00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:32,000
time telling me the mayor's got an interest in this case.

901
00:39:32,119 --> 00:39:34,599
And you know what I say to them, I say, fine,

902
00:39:35,119 --> 00:39:37,559
you have the mayor call me. And in all the

903
00:39:37,639 --> 00:39:39,960
years I've been on the bench, that mayor has never

904
00:39:40,039 --> 00:39:43,400
called me. Now one's I got to mention Eugene Pinchham

905
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,519
because he was the other mentor I had. He was

906
00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:48,000
an African American criminal defense lawyer. When I was a

907
00:39:48,039 --> 00:39:50,119
law student. I got to know him when I was

908
00:39:50,119 --> 00:39:52,239
the law clerk in that courtroom, that same courtroom I

909
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,519
was talking about earlier, and he would come in. He'd

910
00:39:54,519 --> 00:39:56,000
be waiting for his case to be called, and he

911
00:39:56,159 --> 00:39:59,480
liked to pontificate, and he would pontificate with me. And

912
00:39:59,559 --> 00:40:02,039
then out of the blue, during my third year of

913
00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:04,480
law school, when I was in this intensive trial advocacy

914
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,679
program at Harvard Law School. He was brought in as

915
00:40:06,679 --> 00:40:10,239
one of the instructors to do a sample closing argument

916
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:11,079
in a criminal case.

917
00:40:11,119 --> 00:40:11,639
Speaker 6: And then he took me.

918
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,639
Speaker 7: He and his wife took me out to drinks at

919
00:40:13,639 --> 00:40:15,440
the Charles Hotel. I got to know him, and then

920
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,159
I ultimately get assigned to his courtroom. And he was

921
00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:20,559
so hard on states attorneys because he was a very

922
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,000
pro defense judge that it was considered very hard time

923
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:27,519
to go there. So they threw me into this courtroom.

924
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,400
But they didn't know, and I didn't tell him that

925
00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:32,519
I really liked this guy, and he really liked me.

926
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,480
And in between cases, I would sit back in chambers

927
00:40:36,519 --> 00:40:38,239
and he would go through the docket and just tell

928
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,559
me his opinions on all these cases and who was

929
00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:42,320
doing what and why they were doing And at one

930
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,079
point in the book, I want to tell the story,

931
00:40:44,119 --> 00:40:46,400
but there's a story where I had a moral dilemma

932
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,159
about something to do, and I confided my moral dilemma

933
00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:52,599
in the judge. If I had confided in anybody in

934
00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:54,280
my office, it could have hurt my promotion.

935
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 2: But he gave me.

936
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 7: His opinion, and what he told me in response could

937
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,199
have jeopardized his career. But anyway, I learned what it

938
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,400
would like to see a case from the defense standpoint

939
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:05,360
from Eugene Benscham.

940
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,519
Speaker 5: When your readers close the book at the end of

941
00:41:08,599 --> 00:41:12,280
Felony review, what do you want them to come away with?

942
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 6: It depends on who the reader is.

943
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,199
Speaker 7: If it's somebody who's thinking about going to law school

944
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,039
or somebody who's in law school and they think they

945
00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:22,639
might want to be a criminal lawyer, don't let the

946
00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:25,599
system talk you out of it, because it's better than TV.

947
00:41:26,119 --> 00:41:28,480
So I want them to realize that the real world,

948
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,199
real life is dirty and gritty, and that's what makes

949
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,760
it more interesting than what they can show yellvision except

950
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,079
for the wire. We'll say, watch the wire, see if

951
00:41:36,119 --> 00:41:38,639
you like that system, because that's the system we're talking about.

952
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,159
With respect to everybody else, I like them to be entertained.

953
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,480
But by the true crime genre. This is real true crime,

954
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,800
and a lot of the true crime stuff is not

955
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,400
real true crime, like making up a murderer we find

956
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,679
out later on was like they left out all the

957
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,280
evidence of guilt, which was inconvenient with their narrative. We

958
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,800
all watched when we watched the first season. We all

959
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,199
thought one thing, and then we found out later on

960
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,760
we didn't get the whole story. I'm telling the whole story.

961
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,920
And here's the other thing. And this is also true

962
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,400
of law students and general public. And I think you'll

963
00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:10,039
confirm this. I tell all of my mistakes. I lay

964
00:42:10,039 --> 00:42:12,559
all my mistakes out there. This is what I did wrong.

965
00:42:12,599 --> 00:42:14,760
This is the murder confession in which I failed to

966
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,079
give Miranda rights at the beginning of the murder of

967
00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:19,039
the court reporters statement, and that was the way I

968
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,079
how I came to make that mistake, and how it

969
00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:23,440
was fixed. And here's what I did this wrong, and

970
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,320
here's when I did that wrong. I had the worst

971
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,400
performance I ever had in my whole life, the first

972
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,679
time I ever had the first time I cross examined

973
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,559
a defendant in a jury trial. I talk about what

974
00:42:32,599 --> 00:42:34,960
I did wrong and why I made that mistake, and

975
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,800
so there's a lot of learning there. And plus there's

976
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,559
the lessons. Why do people why do guilty? Why do

977
00:42:39,679 --> 00:42:41,639
people confess? Why do they talk to the why do

978
00:42:41,679 --> 00:42:44,119
they make confessions to the police without being coursed? What

979
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,880
kind of defense attorneys should you have? And why it's

980
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,320
a different kind if you're guilty than if you're innocent.

981
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,320
Whether there should be a replacement for the exclusionary rule.

982
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,039
I try to work these lessons into the narrative that

983
00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:57,800
you can take away a better understanding of the criminal

984
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,280
justice system. Then TV will tell you out.

985
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,599
Speaker 5: The book is Felony Review Tales of True Crime and

986
00:43:03,599 --> 00:43:06,960
Corruption in Chicago by Randy Barnett. Randy, where can everybody

987
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:07,639
find your book?

988
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,119
Speaker 7: Where all leading books are sold primarily on Amazon is

989
00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:13,000
where I would recommend that you go. It was coming

990
00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:15,400
out March sixteenth, but it'll be delivered to your door

991
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,880
at the guaranteed lowest price if you go to Amazon,

992
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,480
and that's where I would buy it. Tales of True

993
00:43:20,559 --> 00:43:22,000
Crime and Corruption in Chicago.

994
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 3: Love it, Randy. Thank you for joining us today. We

995
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:25,280
really appreciate it.

996
00:43:25,599 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 5: I knew it would be fun and it was. Thank

997
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,199
you so much. That is going to do it for

998
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,199
this episode of Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much

999
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,199
for listening. We'll see you next time.

1000
00:43:44,679 --> 00:43:48,199
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

1001
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:49,719
Another Dog Productions.

1002
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,599
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

1003
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

1004
00:43:57,039 --> 00:44:00,159
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod our.

1005
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,519
Speaker 1: Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.

1006
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

1007
00:44:07,639 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

1008
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,119
Murders on Facebook.

1009
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

1010
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,599
Bill Thomas. Five six.

1011
00:44:17,079 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.